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pikahlua · 1 month

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"A deuteragonist has a very different role in the MHA and that is a whole other post ."Can you please write this article? I am tired of Bakugo being constantly downplayed. There are very few people who understand his character and role in the story as well as you do.

Haha I mean hehe it's just hoho I never said fufu that Katsuki is the deuteragonist guffaw shucks haha I mean come on snort why are you putting words in my-

Katsuki Bakugou is the deuteragonist.

Katsuki Bakugou is the deuteragonist

"Of course you would say that. You're a Katsuki Bakugou stan! You are invested in inflating his importance in the story because you love him." - some people, probably

No. If that were true, I would be arguing Katsuki Bakugou is the protagonist. But I'm not.

Because Katsuki Bakugou is the deuteragonist.

It's not that I love him and therefore assert that he's the deuteragonist. I love him because he's the deuteragonist (plus many other reasons). He is an archetypal familiar shounen hero made interesting in part by the fact that he is NOT the protagonist and deliberately written in the deuteragonist role/function, and I will go into visceral detail about this momentarily.

I promise you I don't go around in other fandoms arguing my favorite non-main character is the deuteragonist. I fully embrace whatever role it is they play in the story. YOU WILL SEE THE EVIDENCE OF THIS VERY SOON, FOR EVERY CHARACTER IN MHA.

What is a deuteragonist?

A deuteragonist is a story archetype. They are the second-most important character in a story (which is a vague as hell definition). They are often known as the "secondary main character."

That's it. Everything else one might say about a deuteragonist is just a sub-archetype.

A deuteragonist can be a sidekick, a love interest, a rival, an antagonist, or even a neutral party. They are often, not always, written as foil characters to the protagonist. They often, not always, provide a different and yet similar outlook to the protagonist's. Their utility in a story can be quite varied. Sometimes they support the protagonist, and sometimes they oppose the protagonist. Often, they are used to help the protagonist complete their character arc.

Sometimes, there can be more than one deuteragonist.

What the hell is a deuteragonist?

The problem is, the function of a deuteragonist can change just depending on the type of story we're talking about. A deuteragonist in an ancient Greek tragedy (theatre), where the term originally came from, won't necessarily function the same way as a deuteragonist in a 2-hour contemporary movie. Things get even more complicated when we're talking about a TV series, a book series, or a comic book series in which the cast becomes so large we're likely to see MULTIPLE deuteragonists.

My Hero Academia, like many long-running shounen manga, has an ensemble cast. Would you be surprised if I told you My Hero Academia not only has multiple deuteragonists, not only has multiple antagonists, but also has multiple protagonists? Because it does!

Sometimes people wanna divide MHA into three or four acts and make the claim that the deuteragonist changes from act to act. I say they aren't going far enough. MHA is divided into arcs, and each arc has its own protagonist and antagonist and sometimes even deuteragonist. This is a STAPLE of ensemble cast shounen manga, where often there will be so many characters they get grouped off into trios (or more) and one among them will be the group's designated protagonist.

Sure, in most MHA arcs, Izuku is the protagonist. But he's not always. Who is the protagonist of the Pro Hero (Endeavor vs Hood) arc? Who is the deuteragonist? It's not Izuku and Katsuki; it's Endeavor and Hawks! What about the protagonist in the My Villain Academia arc? Tomura. The Hero License Supplementary Course arc? Katsuki and Shouto (who can't seem to decide if they're co-protagonists or protagonist and deuteragonist and who is which). The Overhaul arc? Izuku is the protagonist and Mirio is the deuteragonist. Some arcs really play with these roles or make it unclear who is playing which role or if the role even exists.

What is a deuteragonist in My Hero Academia?

So if we have a bunch of protagonists, does that mean the most important one is the series' overarching protagonist and the one second in importance is the deuteragonist? It COULD be, but it's not necessarily true.

There aren't that many arcs where Izuku is not the protagonist. If we look at the number of arcs where someone else is the protagonist, following the above logic, we could end up with All Might or Endeavor as the deuteragonist. Maybe some people would earnestly make the argument Endeavor is the deuteragonist--I don't know, I haven't met those people I guess. The problem with this approach in my eyes is that it entirely discounts the deuteragonists of each arc. Would it not follow that the overarching deuteragonist is the character who has played the deuteragonist in the largest number of arcs? What if that character is different from the character who has played protagonist the second-most number of times? And this is to say nothing about if the protagonist or deuteragonist are the same as the antagonist in a given arc! It's difficult to weight any one character in this fashion particularly when you have an ensemble cast.

This is getting into the question of focus and screentime. How much should we weight this metric? Admittedly this one can also be complicated, especially when it comes to long stories with ensemble casts. The question is how much does screentime actually convey how much a character is the focus of a story, and does that necessarily translate to protagonist and deuteragonist? Because for many the question is: could the deuteragonist be an antagonist in MHA?

It just gets a little harder to argue someone besides Katuski Bakugou is the main deuteragonist the more Katsuki's screentime allocation looks something like this:

Okay, perhaps that exact size of gap is hyperbole. But there is a clear, measurable gap between Katsuki Bakugou and everyone else and I don't think anyone has ever disputed that. Please check out this post by @dekusheroacademia that has compiled some of these statistics (they also make some excellent points about evaluating the elements of a deuteragonist and how various characters fit or don't fit those characteristics).

Still, this is merely supporting evidence, not conclusive. I am well aware of the concept of a false protagonist, where someone appears to be the protagonist until later someone else is revealed to be the story's true protagonist. And while I've never seen a false deuteragonist where someone SEEMS to be the deuteragonist and is later revealed in a twist not to be (as opposed to the deuteragonist just merely changing NOT as a deliberate twist where expectations were set to be otherwise), that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Tangentially related, we could also potentially look at marketing as another piece of supporting evidence. It's not conclusive that just because Katsuki Bakugou is one of the most merchandised characters in the franchise that he is more important to the story than those who aren't, but it's still notable supporting evidence. After all, based on Horikoshi's marketing of his own story i.e. who he draws in which orientations on chapter and tankoban covers, or how he lists characters on character intro pages, we could easily come to the conclusion as casual readers that Izuku is the protagonist. There are many cases where one could conclude Katsuki is the deuteragonist based on such presentations alone. But again, I concede this is not conclusive.

So, if we set aside individual story arc roles, screentime, and marketing, what does that leave us with?

What is THE deuteragonist in My Hero Academia?

Even if we can determine Izuku Midoriya is THE protagonist of MHA based on things like the number of times he's protagonist in story arcs, his screentime, and marketing, I'll set those aside for the deuteragonist and see if there's something else that can help us here.

What element are we missing? The overall story.

Sure, we can break down the story into arcs and assign deuteragonists that way, but that's not getting us to THE deuteragonist. So let's start with the protagonist. How do we know Izuku Midoriya is the protagonist of MHA without considering the previous metrics? The way the story focuses on him. It is easy enough for anyone to recognize the characteristics of a protagonist in him from a functional perspective. He is a POV character. We hear his thoughts. He narrates the story. We see the story over the timeline of his character growth. His character arc coincides with the overall story themes.

I've talked many times about how My Hero Academia at its core is a story that explores the question: what is a hero? MANY characters explore this question, but the character who compiles these answers together and rounds them all out and grows and has his perspective change and exemplifies the moral is: Izuku Midoriya.

So let's go back to the functional elements of a deuteragonist. Remember those sub-archetypes? Well, in a shorter story with no ensemble cast, what do a sidekick, a love interest, a rival, an antagonist, and even a neutral party all have in common? They are defined by their relationship to the protagonist.

You see, in a story where all the characters interact with each other and converge on the major theme of the story, ALL characters are defined by their relationship to the protagonist. But in particular, the function of a deuteragonist is to supplement the story with what the protagonist needs FUNCTIONALLY. When is a sidekick the deuteragonist of a story? When the story focuses on the adventures of the protagonist and their sidekick. When is a love interest the deuteragonist of the story? When the story focuses on the developing relationship between the protagonist and the love interest (i.e. the romance genre). CAN a story with a love interest deuteragonist focus on their adventures and individual character development too? Yes, but sometimes the result is that the love interest is ALSO the sidekick...or the rival. When is the rival the deuteragonist? When the story focuses on the clash and growth between the rivals. When is the antagonist the deuteragonist? When the story focuses on the battle between them. NOTE that when I write this, I don't mean it focuses on the protagonist's adventure that culminates in them meeting the antagonist at the end for a battle. I am talking about when the BATTLE ITSELF is the main focus of the story. See stories like Silence of the Lambs or Death Note for a clearer example of what I mean, where the focus of each is on the psychological games the protagonist and antagonist play with each other. The point is, the story on a structural level, on a meta level, has to focus on these sorts of interactions to determine its deuteragonist.

Obviously this gets more complicated with a large story and an ensemble cast because you could have bits of the story where the structure changes and seems to focus on new things. That's why I pointed out that the more immediate protagonist and deuteragonist and antagonist often change in MHA depending on the story arc.

When I try to determine who is THE deuteragonist of the entire story, I have to look at the entire story. I have to ask myself what the story is about. So what is the story about? What is MHA about?

If you said MHA is about Izuku falling in love with Ochako, I'm sorry but you're wrong.

If you said MHA is about Izuku taking on All Might's mantle, I'm sorry but you're wrong.

If you said MHA is about Izuku defeating/saving Tomura, I'm sorry but you're wrong.

If you said MHA is about Izuku rekindling his friendship with Katsuki, I'm sorry but you're wrong.

MHA is about Izuku Midoriya (and most everyone else) learning what it means to be a hero.

It's in the fucking title. MY HERO ACADEMIA. The story is about Izuku's education (as it takes many forms) to learn what it means to be a hero.

So who is the deuteragonist in the story about Izuku Midoriya learning what it means to be a hero? The character who is second-most important in how Izuku Midoriya learns what it means to be a hero.

A lot of characters do teach Izuku Midoriya what it means to be a hero or at least some piece. But who is MOST IMPORTANT?

See, My Hero Academia is LONG. If we just focus on the parts of the story in which Izuku tries to learn from All Might or take on his mantle, we lose ARCS of the story. The same is true if we focus on his love life, or his rivalry with Katsuki, OR EVEN HIS BATTLE WITH TOMURA AND ALL FOR ONE. In the case of the latter, we're basically excluding HALF the story: the school arcs!

MHA is structured such that it alternates between what we colloquially refer to as "school arcs" and "villain arcs." And while exploring the question of "what is a villain?" is an important subset of the main theme, it is not the entire story. You can't just label all the school arcs as "filler" (because they're not) and chuck them out. Each story arc contributes to the lessons Izuku learns and the theme of the main story.

I can think of something every character teaches Izuku with respect to this theme. I can think of a lesson Izuku has taken away from every encounter and every story arc. But who ELSE is present in nearly every story arc? Who represents the foil to Izuku who allows us, the audience, to learn alongside them what it means to be a hero? Who learns the bits Izuku does not need to learn because he already exemplifies those answers in spades? Who represents the other half of the hero equation that Izuku is missing? Who has his own blanks filled in by Izuku himself? Who has played all the sub-archetypes of a deuteragonist for Izuku Midoriya, including antagonist, rival, sidekick, and even arguably love interest (replace with platonic interest for the rekindling friendship angle if you want so we don't have to go into that whole thing here please, I'm talking about the generic structural elements within a story more than anything)?

Izuku Midoriya cannot possibly have learned the fundamental lessons of what it means to be a hero without Katsuki Bakugou's character arc to supplement him. Katsuki Bakugou is an irremovable, integral player in demonstrating the theme of collectivism that informs the main story, not just for Izuku to learn it but for THE AUDIENCE to see it too. He is one half of "win to save, save to win." He is the standard shounen manga archetype who has to learn the value of teamwork/collectivism so that he can teach it to Izuku Midoriya and save him from himself. The story is structured in such a way that it resembles LESSONS for the characters to learn, and Katsuki's "education" in this respect is VITAL to the story, second in importance only to Izuku Midoriya's.

P.S. Is it actually taking away from Katsuki to call someone else THE deuteragonist?

Yes. I know some people don't want to have to say it that way, but it is. Based on a number of metrics, Katsuki Bakugou is most widely recognized as the deuteragonist. If there's a default answer to the question of who is the deuteragonist but you think the deuteragonist is someone else, then in order to be persuasive you must not only argue why you think your chosen character is the deuteragonist but why Katsuki Bakugou is NOT the deuteragonist. If you want to argue someone else is the deuteragonist, you are taking on that onus, that burden of proof. You have to disprove Katsuki Bakugou is the deuteragonist.

Are there other characters who fit the deuteragonist function at times? Yes! There are multiple deuteragonists! But if in spite of the multiple protagonists we're still able to call Izuku Midoriya THE protagonist of My Hero Academia, then we are absolutely able to call Katsuki Bakugou THE deuteragonist as well.

tl;dr MHA is about learning what it means to be a hero and Katsuki Bakugou's story is second-most important to that theme, which makes him the deuteragonist

#anon ask #ask pika #my hero academia manga spoilers #final showdown spoilers #katsuki bakugou #meta #deuteragonist #now just because i care does that mean i actually CARE?#no not really #think what you want you aren't doing anything to ME

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zeynyukine3011 · 11 days

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Some Tim stans are acting like Damian fans are just mad Damian messed up and are insisting it is fine for a character to mess up. But Damian isn't messing up for his own character. This isn't for Damian to learn or grow. It doesn't even align with how Damian would reasonably mess up. This 'mess up' is most likely to sideline Damian for Tim. This is really obvious. Damian shouldn't have in character trusted Zur but he did so Tim can be the good Robin.

EXACTLY!!!!! I've seen several posts about how Damian wasn't OOC and he was "just a child who wanted his father's approval"

People who say this apparently didn't understand Damian's character.

Damian is the child who found his father's identity from a crowd without knowing anything about him. He understood that imposter Insomnia wasn't his father and immediately stabbed him with a sword.

Damian is clever, smart and cunning. In Batman and Robin (2011) he tricked both Batman and Nobody. And neither of them suspected anything until Damian revealed it himself.

But in Zur arc, Damian is just there to look dumb so he can show how "smart" and "perfect" Tim is. Beacuse Chip Zdarsky is basically screaming about his fanboying Tim.

As you just said, this is not something Damian would do. This is not a "mistake" that Damian can have. This incident does not, under any circumstance, add anything to Damian's character development. We have seen, since 2016, that Damian's development he had over the years were thrown to trash. All DC wants to do with him is to be villain.

I was actually starting to gain hope with Batman and Robin (2023) since Damian is not a villainized there (But I don't like how Williamson writes Damian either but at least he is better than Zdarsky. But that's another story.). Unfortunately, however, Damian is still contiuned to be used as a villain, a demon child who always makes stupid mistakes and causes disasters in return.

Like I said in my previous post, Damian will have to apologise for "the things he have done". And, once again, he will be shown as a dumbass who doesn't understand obvious things, and doesn't think the consequences of his actions.

If Damian was written in character, Damian would've notice the moment he laid his eyes on Failsafe, that it wasn't his father. Damian would've become a double agent. He would've secretly make plans to defeat Zur from inside.

Yet, with this writer, we will have a heroic Tim while down grading Damian.

Damian is only there so that Zur can have an evil sidekick and thus, DC can have their "Good B&R vs Evil B&R" fight.

I used to like Tim, actually. I thought he was cool and had potential and could be good brothers with Damian. But in last years, writers always downgrade and badmouth other Robins (particularly Damian) to shine the spotlights to Tim. And while Tim has awesome moments with Bruce, while he saves him, Damian has a horrible relationship with his father. Bruce tells him that even though he loves him, he doesn't like Damian, or just how brash and cruel Damian is, or blaming Damian for Alfred's death etc.

Tim can be written as a good Robin, and for this, DC doesn't need to sweep the floor with the other Robins.

#damian wayne #tim drake #bruce wayne #damian al ghul #batman 147 #batman #batman comics #robin #dc #dc comics #long post #batfamily #batfam #anti chip zdarsky

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yall-hate-kids-tourney · 3 months

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Loser Round 4: Damian Wayne (DC) vs. Jason Todd (DC)

A rematch? It's so funny how the bracket turned out this way.

Propaganda under the cut.

Damian Wayne (9-14):

Damian is a kid who was raised as an assassin and because of that when he first appears he has some really messed up ideas of how to prove himself to his father by being aggressive with the criminals they capture and attacking his brother. Because of this people act like he is the most evil character ever and refuse to give him any grace. They make him out to be this awful irredeemable monster who just wants to kill his brother and hurt people. If the fandom isn’t making his out to be The Worst(tm) then they are ignoring his existence all-together. He is a really interesting character who has done some not so great things but he’s grown and learned a lot through various character arcs (as much of an arc as a comic book character can have) and he deserves to be acknowledged for himself and not just as a villain so that people can woobify his brother.

——

HES JUST A LITTLE BABY GUY!!!!! Little baby man raised as an assassin and learning how to be a real person <3. But because he was kind of a dick and also a little stabby early-on, especially to the fandom's main "so sad uwu depressed baby" blorbo (and also he's not white), people treat him like he's satan incarnate

Jason Todd (~12):

Most of the Tumblr fandom likes this guy but if you step outside this website then wham so many people say he got what he deserved as a kid and Batman can't be cool if he's a dad so it's important for Batman to trash-talk his dead child constantly so we can all agree what a bad idea it was. Also wanna highlight that a lot of the records we have from fans at the time were clear they disliked Robin for BEING a child. Like a lot of the little dude characters in this tournament are treated too harshly for making an ugly choice and the fans aren't being understanding or sympathetic that the choice is made by a child character who is immature and not developed and strong enough to make a good choice and stuff. But THIS little dude was specifically hated FOR being a child. People wanted tough loner guy Batman not Batdad and his little buddy. The first Robin would drive back from college and guest star sometimes and be advertised as the Teen Wonder and people were like yeah okay but then Batman actually starts being a single parent for a child with needs and people were like UGH not the BOY Wonder. Today pretty much everywhere you see Batman fans saying Batman is better solo, no kid, it's not realistic to have a kid, a kid shouldn't be in the movies blah. Even if the comics they always find a way to send away the new kid so that Batman never has to parent. So all the Robins are being excluded from the narrative but I think this one is THE symbol of Batman fans hating a child character just for being a child.

Robin, Jason Todd, THE hated child character. In the 1980s, Batman comics had become increasingly dark and gritty. According to editor O'Neil himself, the courted audience wasn't kids but 19-40 year old men with disposable income. Batman's child sidekick, Robin, was offensively campy and childish. Fans called him wimpy, annoying, dumb, bratty, etc. Also people complained that Batman acting like an affectionate dad was unmanly and gay. Robin acts violent and emotional and people are like "ew he's so childish and emotional"—and then Batman literally acts just as murderously and emotionally within literally the same exact story and people are like "wow he's so dark and tortured". So in 1988 (after brutalizing Batgirl to get rid of her for being too bright and nice and kid-friendly), DC held a paid poll for fans to vote for Robin to live or die. O'Neil claims he heard a fan (a grown man with a dayjob as a lawyer) programmed a phone to spam kill votes. One fanguy claimed that he sold his Mercedes to buy kill votes (probably an exaggeration but still). By less than 1% margin, the vote decided to kill Robin in a spectacularly violent way. Anyway the 1989 Batman movie brought in a huge wave of new child comicbook fans who liked the new Robin (a very cool teenage high school Robin with a driver's license and a girlfriend), and DC started a separate Robin-less Batman series called Legends of the Dark Knight to make the anti-Robin writers and fans happy. But to this day, many fans agree it was a good idea to kill off the other Robin so that his foolish death reminds other characters to never be childish and stupid again. Bonus: the current Robin (usually a traumatized 10-year-old) has also been facing some pretty loud hatred for over 15 years.

#yall hate kids tourney #loser round 4 #dc #dc comics #batman #batfamily #dc robin #batman comics #batman and robin #damian wayne #jason todd #cw child death

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vampire-wizard-solidarity · 9 months

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i think the way totk references skyward sword only highlights the problems with totk and gets a little insulting at times.

this is mostly about ganondorf’s demon king form being highly reminiscent of demise. i get that it makes sense, since ganon’s power most likely comes from demise’s curse, so when it’s amplified it visually references that. that’s neat, and not an inherently bad idea, even a good one in some aspects.

however, all it does for me is highlight just how much of a non character ganondorf is. demise is, to an extent, also a non character: he isn’t deep nor extensively fleshed out, but the thing is, not all characters have to be. and him, he works. most of the game is spent with ghirahim, his much more expressive and motivated sidekick. he’s fun, intimidating when he has to be, and balances being silly and being an actual threat well. demise is the kicker, the final punch, when ghirahim spent the entire game building him up, we finally get to see him, he’s intimidating, he’s serious in contrast to ghirahim, he immediately shuts the villain we spent most of the game fighting up, and reduces him to an object to be used to fulfil his own goals. his boss fight is cool, and so is he.

demise is a god of destruction, he doesn’t have a motivation beyond the fact that he is a representation and wields power over evil. and that’s the point. skyward sword’s themes largely center humanity vs inhumanity, link spends a large portion of the game running around fulfilling a plan he doesn’t fully understand, being roped into this ordeal before he even finds out about it, not really comprehending what’s happening or why for a long time. so, it’s only natural the final force he has to face is an equally incomprehensible threat, and he defeats it not because he comprehends it more now, or understands the ancient conflict between gods or any of that. he does it because he wants to protect someone he loves, he does it because he forms a genuine bond with the robotic, originally emotionless guide who was made only for the purpose of aiding him in this godly plan. humanity triumphs over godhood. humanity triumphs over inhumanity.

in totk, however? there really isn’t much difference between ganondorf before and after he becomes the demon king. he has no particular motivation before or after, he is a king who wants to rule over hyrule with evil, and then he becomes a more powerful king who wants to rule over hyrule with evil. he looks more like the god of destruction now, but that signifies nothing other than he is more powerful now. ganon has always been associated with power, and the way power corrupts has always been a fitting theme for him. he could’ve had development throughout the game, and him becoming more like the literal godly representation of evil could’ve signified that development. maybe he was a king with an actual motivation, an actual in story reason to oppose hyrule, we could’ve been shown his human side, what he actually cares for and why he does the things he does, and then we could’ve seen that side of him dissolve as he taps more into his power, becomes more like a being of destruction that destroys simply because that’s what it has power over. him taking visual cues from demise could’ve actually meant something, could’ve been a visual representation of the way his power corrupts him. instead, we get nothing. there was no reason to bring ganondorf back, because he still acts like a motivationless monster, who is evil simply because he is. all talk of this being “his game” was a lie, considering he could easily be replaced by a generically evil monster and nothing would’ve changed.

ultimately, i still wouldn’t have been happy with this story because it would still lean heavily on the orientalist narratives still alive and present in zelda, but this would’ve been at least something. the way it is, the fact that he takes visual cues from demise pisses me off because it highlights just how one dimensional his character is, it makes me feel only cynicism because it makes it clear that ganondorf was only brought back because he’s a popular and iconic character and not because he had any purpose in the story or because the writers had anything interesting to do with him.

#loz #legend of zelda #totk #tears of the kingdom #totk critical #totk criticism #skyward sword #sksw #ganondorf #demise #analysis #my hot takes #meta

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grunklestanofficial · 19 days

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I’ve been given the chance to properly page through the Dogman series while on my job and man the amount of layers you can read into what’s happening in here is wild.

-Base layer, you got a man with a dog head fighting crime with his plucky kitten sidekick, and this mostly results in them fighting giant sippy cups and claymation cheesesteaks. They eventually just turn him from a cop into a superhero because Dav Pikley says ACAB.

-The exact same time this is happening the former main villain is having an entire redemption arc exploring his deep-rooted past traumas and the results of restorative vs. punitive justice, kickstarted by inadvertently making a clone son that proved that he wasn’t intrinsically born evil.

-In the meta-textual level, this is all being written by a pair of fifth graders who are able to convey these things at such a young age, and these stories must also be read through the lenses of their own personal thoughts and experiences of under supported ADHD kids finally getting a supportive teacher. I grew up with Harold and George and I’m so, so proud of them. They fought carnivorous robot toilets and brainwashed their principal last year.

#dog man #Dogman #dav pilkey #captain underpants

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defectivegembrain · 10 months

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I hate when people seem to misunderstand Troy and Abed's relationship as being actually like what Vice Dean Laybourne tried to make them think it was. He didn't understand them, he understood just enough to present a simplified, stereotypical version of what they have. Like yes Abed was initially a little inconsiderate in his response to Troy, but honestly as an autistic person, I understand very well the frustration of having something planned out, being very focused on it, having an agreement with someone, and then they suddenly want to change it. People exaggerate how stubborn he was, he was literally about to give in before Laybourne manipulated him.

And he actually does that quite a lot. In the initial buildup of their friendship, he does things like take cues from Troy's behaviour and try to "mess with" him, because that's what Troy teaches him friends do. He's trying to connect on Troy's level. He plays basketball with him, engaging in interests he doesn't necessarily share, he tolerates Troy's competitiveness and lets him win the race to make him happy. It's Troy who has to get past the attitude that friends only do things for him and not the other way round.

And he does learn to be a good friend, but the idea that Abed doesn't show up for him just as much is bizarre. In Epidemiology, he's insistent that if only one of them survives, it should be Troy. He listens and supports him with the AC repair vs plumbing thing, and it is Troy who decides that he just wants to watch tv with him. When Troy goes to the AC repair school, Abed doesn't try to talk him out of it, even though he's devastated. He's upset when Troy and Britta get together, but he doesn't put that on Troy himself.

He listens to Troy about the impersonator thing, despite deep fears of being controlled, and honestly seems more concerned about their friendship than his own safety. He goes along with the body swap bit at a moment's notice, goes to a restaurant he previously said he couldn't go to, puts up with the waiter badmouthing one of his favourite movies, and breaks up with Britta for Troy. When he's so upset about Troy leaving that he hallucinates lava, he jumps into said lava in order to let him go.

And I especially hate when people, just like Laybourne, use the Inspector Spacetime thing to argue that their relationship is unequal. Like sorry, in other instances, Abed is more than willing to play the villain (Kickpuncher, Alien) or love interest (Kickpuncher) or sidekick (their shadow puppets) to Troy's hero. They do Bert and Ernie, who are equal partners. When they do Calvin and Hobbes, yes he's Calvin, but that's notably something only Troy has expressed an interest in him doing before.

Yeah Inspector Spacetime is a more frequent thing for them, but it's pretty clear that's a really special character for Abed. In Virtual Systems Analysis we can see him use the character to express how he's different from other people. Which, yeah, an autistic person connecting with what is essentially the Doctor...go figure.

Like, look at when he lists characters he thinks are like him: "Data or Johnny 5 or Mork or HAL or K.I.T.T. Or K9 or Woodstock and/or Snoopy. Spock goes without saying." None of those are human. Several robots. Most are not the main character. One is an antagonist. It's probably not often that Abed feels this deep a connection to a character who is undeniably the hero, and while not human, still shows human characteristics. And there's no way Troy is unaware of that.

And by the way, Troy never seems remotely unhappy about playing Constable Reggie until Laybourne talks him into it. And never again afterwards. In fact, when Abed is full on trying to act "normal" at Shirley's wedding rehearsal, Troy talks him into playing Inspector Spacetime...with this ridiculously tender look of love on his face.

It's just...it's a severe mischaracterisation of them both, articulated by a clearly manipulative character, and it bothers me when I see people fall for it.

#here's the essay #community #nbc community #troy barnes #abed nadir #trobed

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chaotic-orphan · 5 months

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Master post of series:

All the links bring you to part one and the next parts are linked at the bottom of the post!

I will add the once off Whump drabbles overtime :)

They are ranked most to least popular~

Intoxicating fear

(Scared hero x telepath Villain)

Delirious villain x hero caretaker

Vendetta

(heroes vs villain war)

Defiant Leader x confident villain

Supermax prison

(Supervillain and rookie guard)

[There is only one part to supermax prison but it will be updated soon :) ]

Heroic betrayal

(hero betrayed by other hero)

The stranger

(vigilante Whumpee)

The immortal Hunter

(vampire whump)

Villain’s gift

[Supervillain gives Villain a present for their birthday]

The hero and the infant

(grumpy hero x superhero sidekick)

A Benignant Mischief

(Fantasy found family, young elf outlaw captured by enemy kingsmen whose orders are to capture any elf for trial before the King/ hurt/comfort— ish, it’s giving fuzzy vibes)

Twisted Love

(Hero lady Whumpee x villain male Whumper; creepy, intimate Whumper, absolutely zero consent, villain is a freak, be warned)

Febuwhump Masterpost

Hero/Villain Drabbles:

Cocky Hero to the rescue

Noble consequences

Whump drabbles:

Recapture

That’s enough

June of doom (JoD):

JoD Day nine: part one / part two / part three

( I intend to make this into a series I just forgot about it until today)

#master post #masterpost series #Masterpost of series #orphan writing #orphan Masterpost

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swiftwidget · 1 year

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The Case for Toshinori Yagi Living and What (Could) Happen Next

Now that MHA 386 is officially out in English as of 4/23/23, @aoimikans and I can talk about our discussions and theories of what comes next. This is mainly an argument for (and reassurance of) Toshinori Yagi living through the coming fight with All for One with evidence from the series—as well as some related theories and predictions.

Buckle in, because this is a long one.

An outline for the sake of having an abbreviated list of what we intend to cover:

The Case for Toshinori Yagi living through this fight and why.

Toshinori’s character arc - What we know, and how it has been presented - A Callback to a Previous Meta: “Narrative as an Active Force [...] True Heroic Ideals” / Toshinori’s Heroic Spirit

Shigaraki vs. Izuku - The One for All Mindscape - Bakugou completes the whole. Save to Win. Win to Save.

Toshinori’s last fight and its nature - Won’t cost him his life, but may cost him a limb.

The proximity of Hero Killer: Stain - Also, does he have the Green Goblin hover glider?

The Question Posed: Can a Quirkless Person Be a Hero? - The difference between "Hero wa dekimasu ka?" and "Kimi wa hero ni nareru."

Nighteye’s Vision and Twisting Fate - How it’s worked before

Citizens of MHA - How they could help

All for One’s Hatred and Self-Inflicted Demise - He isn’t the same AfO

Quirks: What we know, and how we know it - What are Quirks - To be Quirkless - To have multiple Quirks

How All for One could screw himself over in the end - It’s too late for him

Whereas Toshinori has decided to live…

What we know: Toshinori grew up as a Quirkless young man living in a state of terror with a strong drive to do something to change the world and make it better. His mentor, Nana Shimura, was like a mother to him and passed the power of One for All to him. She was killed, and Toshinori was forced to flee until he was strong enough to take down AfO’s empire. He returned and in his first fight with AfO he believed he killed him. He was injured to the point his sidekick Sir Nighteye suggested retirement and revealed a vision of a terrible death at the hands of a villain. Toshinori refused to retire, but he became disheartened even while he continued his work as a hero with a shortening time/endurance limit. Then he was inspired after meeting Izuku. Izuku changed his outlook, particularly during and after the Kamino fight.

How it has been presented: Perhaps some of the most defining moments of Toshinori’s character arc are scenes in which he declares his desire and determination to live despite the hardships of his post-Kamino existence. Let’s take a look at some:

It has not been an easy road for Toshinori. After making the above declarations, his self-worth took a major blow when he fell behind, unable to keep up and support Izuku in the way he felt he needed to. But then, he was given an intervention from some unexpected sources—Hero Killer Stain and the last person All Might saved—who gave him back his will to live, and he reaffirmed his drive to live and support his students.

Toshinori’s character development—particularly post-Kamino—has been all about being Toshinori Yagi and having a life after losing his ability to be All Might. Toshinori Yagi is flawed, not the physical powerhouse he was as All Might, but he has worth and the desire to live as himself.

Toshinori lives and his character arc and development all mean something. The mentor-dies trope died with Nana Shimura in the last generation of heroes. Sir Nighteye’s vision of a certain, terrible future died with him (see the Nighteye section below for an expansion on this). Toshinori’s character shows a life after being a career hero, being a Pillar of society, and being a Symbol of Peace. He didn’t lose his value when he used up the last of One for All. Toshinori has inherent value and should be allowed to live out the rest of his natural life.

Toshinori dies… and then what? What was the point of his declarations? What was the point of his development and overcoming hardships? These were personal victories witnessed by very few people in private moments. Just from a story-writing perspective, his death would be so incredibly unsatisfying. And if he dies, what happens with AfO? Does he just move on to the next fight? No, death doesn’t make sense here.

I once wrote a meta post titled “Narrative as an Active Force and Izuku as an Embodiment of Heroic Ideals”. In the post, I briefly discussed how those that left the path of a True Hero typically faced suffering punishment (usually an injury or an encounter with Stain). In the case of Toshinori, his first fight with All for One resulted in his injury because he fought—if only for that final blow—for revenge for Nana Shimura. AfO taunted him, insulted Nana Shimura, and All Might “killed” him.

Toshinori’s choice to go and face All for One for a third time without a Quirk was an act of bravery, sacrifice, and True Heroic Ideals. This alone would, in a way, atone for his previous actions of fighting with wrath and intent to kill.

This altruism—not a Quirk, not power, not fame—is what makes him a hero.

Whereas Shigaraki is Izuku’s foil and foe, not All Might’s…

Just as Toshinori told Naomasa Tsukauchi that he was always meant to fight All for One (and told Todoroki to return to face Touya/Dabi), Izuku is meant to fight Shigaraki. It is also important to note that Naomasa was also present when Gran Torino told Toshinori that he could never fight Shigaraki because he would not be able to see him as a villain, but as Nana Shimura’s grandson.

Each party is pairing off to face the foe they are meant to face.

Toshinori lives and faces All for One, helping take down the villain whose evil acts formed Toshinori’s youth and career. He is the best suited in this moment to tie that loose end.

Toshinori dies… and then what? He would join the other vestiges of One for All holders past. But what good would that do? Flame Vestige Toshi already receives input from Toshinori with him still living.

Flame Vestige Toshinori (Aura Might) has access to all of Toshinori’s memories. He is Toshinori Yagi within the vestige mindscape, one and the same, wholly Toshinori while being separate from the living body of Toshinori. Toshinori is already there. They are one and the same. And Flame Vestige Toshi can communicate with the other vestiges, so if there was something critical that Izuku needed to hear, the vestiges could pass that message along.

If anything, if Toshinori died and became a clearer image in the vestige mindscape, it would be a major distraction and an unspeakably devastating loss for Izuku—who, may I remind you, is fighting after seeing Bakugou pretty visibly dead-looking and losing control of his emotions immediately. Even ignoring that, what would Toshinori be able to add to Izuku’s knowledge or power that his Flame Vestige or the other vestiges haven’t already? What could he add to Izuku’s knowledge that he hasn’t already taught him in person? Nothing really. So! With that said, there would be no point in having Toshinori enter the One for All Mindscape.

Shigaraki is Izuku’s foil, his foe. From the beginning of the story, Izuku has been pitted against Shigaraki who is the final Big Bad. Izuku has also shared his desire to somehow reach and save the child—Tenko Shimura—that is trapped within the twisted person of Shigaraki-AfO.

This is his fight… but not his alone.

Save to Win. Win to Save. Izuku is one half. Bakugou completes the whole. Ultimately, the final fight—if we are to trust how things are foreshadowed so far—will be Shigaraki vs. Izuku and Bakugou.

Not only that, but they may finally do what is necessary to be whole themselves. Bakugou may Save to Win (i.e. he may save Izuku when things seem dire and turn the tide of the fight). Izuku may Win to Save (i.e. defeating this Shigaraki-AfO hybrid to save Tenko and everyone he knows).

Toshinori has already told them they could be great heroes together. This is their fight to prove it, together.

Whereas Toshinori doesn’t need to defeat All for One, he just has to stall…

We understand All for One is on a time limit. He is rapidly regressing/de-aging and will likely disappear given enough time. We also know that as he regresses, All for One’s emotions and mental focus are slipping out of his careful control. He was in a hurry to get to Shigaraki so that Shigaraki could take in the main body Quirk and All for One would then be able to live on and take complete control of the Shigaraki-AfO hybrid.

Toshinori understands the absolute need to keep All for One from reaching Shigaraki (and also Izuku). Toshinori understands no power thus far has kept All for One from going where he likes. And even those in the control room attempting to coordinate the fighting and the evacuation of civilians understand that there is no one else who could stop All for One.

Importantly, Toshinori understands All for One’s obsessive hatred for him. No powers necessary, Toshinori was able to stop All for One in his tracks by just being there. Toshinori’s presence alone was enough. The rest is stalling AfO until his time runs out.

Also, this fight is taking place at Kamino. Toshinori Yagi’s place of origin, the starting point of Toshinori post-All Might. You don’t fight there again, with that significant backstory, and lose. (I swear, I will cry if the chapter is Toshinori Yagi: Origin or Toshinori Yagi: Rising.)

This Toshinori is the fulfillment of him being himself. He is the “mighty ally” waiting to stop All for One. This man who has struggled with self-worth and the will to live post-Kamino, he calls himself mighty! Quirkless Toshinori faces the greatest threat of generations with a fierce grin and the confidence of one who will put his whole back into this fight. He will win—and AfO will lose—because he must.

Aoimikans and my “Cost an Arm” Theory: Even though we believe Toshinori will not die and ultimately AfO will lose… we don’t necessarily think this will be a clean fight. Sir Nighteye predicted a terrible death, so what might he have seen leading up to it? Loss of limb, perhaps.

Toshinori will be in some kind of mech armor that AfO will probably need to—maybe after some badass fighting—tear apart. We’re fairly certain that given Horikoshi’s track record of heroes getting pretty gnarly bodily injuries, AfO is going to take one (or part) of Toshinori’s arms in the fight to get back at him for all the punching and smashing All Might did.

That and we know that information from Toshinori’s body/mind is fed into the vestige mindscape already via Flame Vestige Toshi. Perhaps Toshinori will lose the arm, the arm appears from the flame of Toshi’s vestige, distracting Izuku enough for a negative turn in the battle, which then leads to an opening for Bakugou’s reentry into the fight to turn it for the better. Drama! Suspense! Weeks between chapters with tense uncertainty!

Also, Horikoshi has a love of Star Wars and getting a limb cut off is just in vogue.

But don’t worry! If this does happen, Toshi will probably get a badass prosthetic like other similarly injured characters.

Also… just think of all the Hurt/Comfort fan-fiction that could stem from this… the possibilities…

Whereas Hero Killer: Stain is nearby and has a death wish…

In the same vein as the “Cost an Arm” Theory, a prolonged fight with All for One, regardless of how cool the mech armor is, will likely lead to Toshinori injured and appear to be at risk of a death blow. (There must be distress for the positive turn of the battle to be an amazing relief.)

Enter, Hero Killer: Stain who has been shown to be in an area resembling Kamino where Toshinori will be fighting.

(Is that the Green Goblin flying thing Stain has?)

Stain can do two things that could alter the direction of the fight:

One, Stain’s Quirk only needs a single drop of blood to temporarily paralyze All for One, giving them much needed time to stall.

Two, Stain could very well take a death blow in Toshinori’s place. Stain has repeatedly said that All Might is the only one who is allowed to kill him… but he may just have to settle for dying for All Might instead. Given how Stain is the way he is, it isn’t difficult to imagine this playing out.

Whereas Toshinori revisits Izuku’s question from the very beginning…

In MHA 386, Toshinori remembers Izuku’s question from the very start of the series.

Izuku at the start asks "個性がなくてもヒーローは出来ますか!?" "Kosei ga nakutemo hero wa dekimasu ka!?” “Even without a Quirk, can [I/someone without a quirk] be a hero?”

When Toshinori answered this question and offered Izuku the chance to earn One for All, he said “君はヒーローになれる" "Kimi wa hero ni nareru." “You can become a hero.”

Aoimikans pointed this out to me when reading the Japanese version. There is a difference in what both Izuku and Toshinori are saying. “Can be” is different from “become.”

Izuku was asking: Can a Quirkless person be a hero?

Toshinori’s original answer was essentially: No, but you can become a hero if you have this Quirk.

This is so, so very significant in the context of Toshinori’s final fight and thematically for the story as a whole. He is about to give Izuku the answer he was originally looking for: “Yes. Yes, you can be Quirkless and a hero.” Toshinori is personally trying to prove to Izuku that Quirkless people can be heroes.

Izuku was Quirkless, and was a hero from the moment his body moved on its own in chapter one. Toshinori is Quirkless now, and he is a hero.

What does that mean in the overarching world of MHA? If a Quirkless person can be a hero in a world where Quirks exist, anyone can be a hero. More on this in a bit…

Whereas Nighteye’s vision of a certain terrible death died with him and Izuku isn’t the only one who can twist fate…

In trying to get Toshinori to retire early after his first fight with AfO, Sir Nighteye blurted out that he had looked into Toshinori’s future and saw his terrible death at the hands of a villain. Toshinori and Nighteye both were convinced that what Nighteye sees is the hard truth—once it is seen, it is set in stone.

This idea is thoroughly challenged when Nighteye foresees his own and Izuku’s death during the fight with Overhaul, and yet Izuku does not die. Nighteye says that it may be possible that the will—the thoughts and beliefs—of so many people altered fate.

Nighteye’s vision of Izuku’s death was proved wrong, and in dying Nighteye took with him the certainty of his visions (and the ability to double check for a certain changed future). So, Toshinori’s own predicted terrible fate is not so certain anymore.

It’s important to note that Izuku doesn’t have to be the focal point of this bending of fate. It just takes the will of many people. Which leads to a possible prediction…

Whereas civilians did not all go underground to evacuate…

While there has been a good amount of focus given the civilians that took refuge with the help of U.A. and are currently in moving sections to evacuate the area, not everyone chose to follow that lead. Some have been seen to have hunkered down elsewhere in attempts to protect themselves. Not to mention all the civilians Izuku encountered during the Dark Deku arc.

There is the possibility that those civilians may get the message that or witness Toshinori fighting without his Quirk and decide collectively to step in and try to help. Their bodies may also move on their own and they may act heroically in this crucial moment. And, as mentioned above, it takes the will of many to change fate. All the heroes fighting, all the civilians evacuating, all the civilians possibly out there trying to weather this storm, those are the kind of numbers that could alter fate.

And Toshinori has physically checked in on them. He’s gone to the civilians in person after his encounter with Stain.

Aoimikans would also like to mention that Naomasa Tsukauchi just yelled, “You’re Quirkless!!!” for the whole world to hear. It wasn’t just the internal radio. La Brava has been broadcasting the fights in Japan for the ENTIRE world to see. Not only will the civilians in Japan wish for Toshinori Yagi’s success, but people around the world are glued to their screens at this very moment watching what’s happening in Japan.

This theory that civilians will perhaps provide the backup needed for Toshinori to succeed in prolonging the fight to stall AfO is not unrealistic... Well, Aizawa said it best.

What is more brazen and cocksure than Toshinori going out to fight All for One, alone, while Quirkless? Of course the civilians Toshinori met personally would be inspired to action by him.

Additionally, we have an additional theory as to how a crowd of civilians could help (beyond the hoping and wishing and and possibly watching on screens if someone is out there to record the fight) and it is connected to altered fate, the will of a person, how Quirks work, Quirkless people being heroes, and All for One’s current condition.

Whereas All for One has known motives and flaws…

What do we know about All for One?

We know he grew up idolizing the villain from his younger brother’s comic books, believing they would win despite him not reading to the end of the story. We know he was obsessive over keeping his brother to himself.

We know he grew in power and influence by using his Quirk to steal other Quirks and gave Quirks to those seeking power in exchange for their service. He bought loyalty when he could and dished out terror when he could not. We know he created mindless servants called Noumu with the doctor’s help.

We know he has been chasing the vestige of his brother and has killed the other holders of One for All in his pursuit.

All for One is an apt name for his Quirk and himself. He wants to take all things for himself and take revenge on those who get in his way: the previous One for All users, any person that betrays him like Nagant, and—most notably—All Might.

However, the All for One we are most familiar with is the 200+ year old man who has time and patience to spare, the All for One who plays the long game. That All for One no longer exists.

What do we know about the current All for One?

The current All for One is on a time limit. He is vicious and powerful, pushing the Quirks he has taken to their fullest power. He takes Quirks without hesitation when he can get a hand on someone, whether he needs them or not.

This All for One is impatient and acts without that same careful consideration of the All for One that played the long game. He is rushing to get to Shigaraki in order to save himself, and still he could not resist the pull of his anger, his hatred for All Might.

This All for One is not the rational thinking villain he was, and he cannot contain or fully control the Quirks in his body. Toshinori knows this, and this spells AfO’s doom.

Whereas understanding the nature of Quirks is critical to this fight…

Aoimikans and I love talking and theorizing about Quirks. Just take our ongoing fan-fiction with @toshinoumu. We only used what we knew was canon, expanded on those ideas, and ended up predicting the High End Noumu (years in advance), the Doctor’s involvement, and a number of facts about Quirks. Quirks are really cool to explore, and understanding how they work is crucial to understanding the overall story.

What are Quirks? Quirks are not just powers, they are a vital part of the person that has one. 個性 or “kosei” has a more literal translation than “Quirk.” 個性 “Kosei” translates to “individuality.”

Why is it significant that they aren’t just abilities or mutations? Quirks reflect the person and the person is often compelled by the kind of Quirk they have. The most prominent examples are those persons with Quirks that affect their actions in a negative way. Toga’s Quirk drives her desire to drink blood and become another person. La Brava’s Quirk requires her to love someone and to express that love in order to be used, which was detrimental to her relationships in her youth and critical for her partnership with Gentle.

Quirks can and have affected the thinking of the person who has them. It’s a little chicken-before-the-egg when it is the person’s own Quirk, but it is critical when we consider those given Quirks that either “don’t suit them” or when we look at the multi-Quirked Noumu.

Ill-suited Quirks. In the case of Quirks that don’t suit a person, let’s look at Aoyama and Shigaraki. Aoyama was Quirkless before AfO gave him the Navel Laser. His body was physically pained by the ill-fitting Quirk. That’s a physical drawback. How about mental? We have theorized since Tenko’s backstory was revealed that AfO was the man in the doorway and that he gave Tenko the Quirk Decay (and may have taken Air Walk from him, see previous meta post MHA: Fling Theory for the section on Tenko and the man in the doorway). The trauma of awakening Decay as well as the introduction of whatever mental influence having Decay, a Quirk that’s only use seems to be destroying, turned Tenko into Shigaraki, the villain that wants to destroy everything.

What’s up with Noumu? Noumu are the product of having multiple Quirks forced into one body. The mind becomes overwhelmed and the Noumu becomes an obeying puppet who acts according to the will of their master at the sound of their voice.

How being Quirkless makes a difference: In addition to what we know about Noumu, we know from the record of the previous users lives that One for All was difficult for the previous users to carry and live for very long—the longest lived being the 4th user who died of old age at 40, not an old age. The only users who were not as impacted in this way were Toshinori and Izuku who were Quirkless.

It’s clear that Quirks—particularly multiple Quirks—can negatively impact the wrong body, and it is more than physical. It’s mental and it’s in a way spiritual.

Quirks carry the spirit of the person, their dreams, and their will. That piece lives on and persists.

We know because of One for All that the will and spirit of the previous OfA users lives on with thoughts and wills of their own. We have seen the vestiges of not only the OfA users, but also the ghostly silhouettes of the Quirks within All for One and the parasitic All for One that is within and attached to Shigaraki. We have seen what happens when Shigaraki-AfO takes in a Quirk whose will challenges his own—Star’s Quirk revolted inside his mindscape and destroyed some of the Quirks within. We have seen AfO attack the Quirks’ ghostly vestiges that tried to stop him when he was fighting Jirou, Tokoyami, Dark Shadow, and Hawks.

All for One even elaborated on his own experiences with the consciousnesses of those Quirks he stole and explained how OfA carried the consciousnesses of the users forward.

With that understanding, it isn’t hard to see how a Quirk like All for One could influence or match All for One’s desires and actions. He is driven to take Quirks. And given that AfO himself admits to be haunted by the consciousness from other people who can rebel against him, it makes sense that he has had to practice some kind of focus to keep himself from experiencing the drawbacks of having Quirks that rebel within him.

A mental focus, current All for One lacks.

Whereas All for One wrote himself out of the story chapters ago…

The All for One who played the long game gave himself one last tool to rewind his body to its prime, but it was one and done. One use, no going back. Yes, in using this card, he was able to grow more powerful with the knowledge he would disappear. No, I don’t believe he used it with a full understanding of what that would do to his mind.

In using this last ditch card, he wrote himself out of the story.

All for One is as self-serving as he always has been, but now he is being rash. He’s looking to reunite with Shigaraki-AfO to become one again before he really does disappear. As he regresses and de-ages, he is not in full rational control of his desires. He takes Quirks without needing to, he isn’t holding the Quirks he uses back, and when faced with Toshinori Yagi, he cannot help but stop regardless of his time limit.

Aoimikans and I have theorized for some time that AfO could be overwhelmed by Quirks he takes into himself. This could, if we are correct about a number of predictions, be a key factor in the coming fight.

What would happen if he is stalled, short on time, not in control of his desires and acts irrationally, and his fight with Toshinori doesn’t go as well as he wants?

What would happen if a crowd of civilians acted with heroic impulse to help Toshinori? And what would happen if all those people shared a singular idea, a singular focus of will, to help save Toshinori and defeat All for One?

What would happen if All for One acted on an uncontrolled impulse and decided to take and take and take those Quirks from people who come to help Toshinori?

What would happen if his focus slips and the rebelling spirits of Quirks he stole—including Hawks’ spirit—fight back from within?

What happens when Toshinori proves a Quirkless person can be a hero? Could someone, or many people, become heroes by becoming Quirkless?

Could the man who takes everything for himself be defeated by Toshinori, the man who gave all of himself for the world, and all those who may give up a piece of themselves to help Toshinori?

Whereas I stop being so long winded and summarize…

This is the final fight between Toshinori and All for One. Toshinori is at the greatest height of his post-Kamino character arc—Quirkless, heroic, confident, and determined. All for One may be at his physical best, but he is at his mental weakest and doesn’t have long before his own actions rewind him out of existence. Toshinori only has to stall, and he will be successful in that endeavor—though may be injured in the process. Toshinori will possibly get some help from Stain since he is nearby and wants to die by All Might’s hands anyway, might have to settle for dying for him.

Toshinori will live because his character arc bends in that direction, no other outcome makes sense or would be a satisfactory ending. His death wouldn’t help Izuku, wouldn’t add to the story, and so cannot happen.

The pairs for the last big fights are coming together. The Todoroki family vs Dabi/Touya. Toshinori Yagi vs All for One. Izuku and Bakugou vs Shigaraki. And probably back to Toga and Uraraka at some point as well as Kurogiri, Mic, and Aizawa.

All for One’s current mental state puts him in an internal dilemma. He is not in full rational control of himself and therefore is ripe for rebellion from within! All the vestiges of Quirks stolen—past and present—could very well help to confuse/stall him during the fight with Toshinori. As they already have in his fight with Jirou, Tokoyami, and Hawks.

Citizens could also come to Toshinori’s aid and add their will to his, which could very well help alter Toshinori’s “terrible death” fate. Also, they could possibly become Quirkless if AfO lets his dark urges take control and takes their Quirks (which would only make his mental situation worse), and be heroes in that moment with Toshinori.

All for One will fall at Kamino. He will rewind and rewind…

We aren’t sure what happens to AfO if he reaches a child-like age. Will he be the same person, only less controlled? Or will we see a sad, childish side of All for One that just wants his brother back? If so, would Toshinori sit with this lost child until the end? Horikoshi has a tendency to show the child within the characters so far, it isn’t impossible AfO will get the same treatment.

Either way, everything supports the case for Toshinori Yagi living. We’ll see what comes next.

Thanks for reading! :3

#MHA386 #MHA386Spoilers #Toshinori Yagi #All Might #MHA #BNHA #Toshinori LIVES #The Case for Toshinori Yagi Living #All for One #AfO #One for All #OfA #Izuku Midoriya #Naomasa Tsukauchi #WE WORKED ON THIS ALL WEEKEND #FORMATTING THIS WAS A PAIN #Toshinoumu #For our readers

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cephalog0d · 7 months

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Okay, but like. There's the whole joke about Bruce recruiting children to be his sidekicks, but honestly there's only really one that fits that.

And it's Jason. And the whole story there is, frankly, unhinged. Aaaaand then he died.

(I'm specifically talking about "first post-crisis origin stories" here because Jason and Dick, in particular, have both had multiple major retcons and revisions over the years, and some of them dramatically change how things happened.)

Like okay. Going backwards, you've got Duke who joined/led a whole Robin-based gang at a time when Bruce wasn't even Batman. You've got Damian and Cass, who were both literally born into the world of masks and capes and heroes and villains, so they weren't ever really not going to be part of it. Steph might have taken inspiration from previous heroes but she made her own identity and repeatedly refused to stop involving herself in the vigilante lifestyle. Tim, obviously, basically strong-armed Batman into letting him be Robin, despite Batman's protests.

Dick's a little more complicated just because there's so many versions, because that's what 80 years of comics and multiple universe reboots will do, and there's kind of a general trend that earlier pre-crisis versions were more of Batman being like "hello, child, would you like to be my sidekick" and later versions have leaned harder and harder into the idea that Dick was absolutely going to do this anyway, regardless of what Batman had to say about it. But even in the first post-crisis version, the flashback in Batman Year 3, Dick says he wants to find a way to keep people like that from hurting others again. When Alfred questions Bruce's offer to train him, Bruce says that Dick should learn to do things the right way if he's going to do it. It's not hard to extrapolate that, much like later versions of the origin story, Dick was going to get himself into this one way or another. (Batman (1940) #437)

And then there's Jason. Whose backstory has also had a lot of (sometimes major) revisions over the years (remember when his adoption was, like, some kind of Joker-originated long con? Fucken Nu52, man). But the original post-crisis version is pretty straightforward. Steals Batman's tires, gets caught and sent to Ma Gunn's Secret Criminal School, intervenes when Batman goes to investigate, immediately gets offered the chance to be Robin based entirely on that.

Which is itself kind of unhinged. That Bruce saw this kid who was living on his own stealing tires and went "Hey you would make a good Robin" as his very first instinct.

But if you've never read Jason's post-crisis origin, or it's been a while, it's honestly even more unhinged than that because that arc starts with Dick getting "fired" as Robin specifically for the reason that he got shot by Joker and Bruce freaked out about how the Robin identity has too many enemies and therefore Dick, a legal adult with approximately a decade of training and experience, should not use the identity anymore.

(And it's specifically about the Robin identity, in this version, because when Dick says he's not going to stop the crime fighting thing Bruce's response is basically "I know and I didn't expect you to". Honestly I could also say a lot about this version of the Robin/Nightwing transition vs. later ones and how this one definitely feels like the Heavy Hand of DC Editorial in the fact that they had no contact for so long afterwards, because the interaction really doesn't feel like it warrants that in this case compared to some later versions, but that's a whole other too-long ramble.) (Batman (1940) #408)

And then a few weeks later Bruce turns around and picks up a random kid, a literal child, and goes "Hey you would make a good Robin!"

And I think a lot about how fucking wild that is. And it's not like the people writing just didn't notice. Dick's big argument with Bruce when he finally comes back to Gotham and meets Jason isn't about the fact that Bruce took in another kid, or even necessarily about Dick feeling proprietary over the Robin identity, the thing he's angry about is that Bruce said it was too dangerous for him, an adult, someone who has trained with Batman for a decade and was already highly physically trained before that for his whole life, to be Robin, and now Bruce has turned around and painted that target onto some random new kid. He pushes, repeatedly, trying to get Bruce to justify himself and this absolutely irresponsible decision, and Bruce gives a lot of answers about how Jason was on a bad path and needed this outlet and eventually just admits that he missed having a partner. (Batman (1940) #416)

And like. Dick's right, is the thing. He is 1000% in the right in this argument. If he can't be Robin anymore because of the danger, how in the hell is it anything like a good idea to hand it over to someone way younger, way less trained, way less experienced, and expect that that wouldn't end in tragedy?

And then it did.

And yeah, Bruce, it is kinda a lot of your fault.

#And the punchline is Batman clearly should not get to choose his own sidekicks! Haha?#(Sorry this is a lot more serious than my usual Batfam shitposts it won't be a regular habit don't worry)#this is long and rambly but it's something i think about a lot #and it's on my mind extra because of an AU oneshot i'm working on finishing right now #and obviously there's eight kabillion versions of any given origin and reboots and retcons and they change drastically yadda yadda yadda #and also obviously there's always behind-the-scenes editorial choices and other factors when it comes to comics story events #story and character choices are frequently not just a matter of storytelling but of things like meeting editorial demand of What Must Happe #but just looking at the story as presented: the one time bruce specifically recruited someone as his sidekick that kid ended up dead for it #it does make narrative sense given this that bruce's reaction to most of the subsequent kids is initially 'go the fuck home and stop this'#and then only really yielding with the realization that they're totally going to do this shit anyway #jason todd #dick grayson #bruce wayne

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