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canonmisogynyvictimstournament · 8 months

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PROPAGANDA

KATHERINA MINOLA (THE TAMING OF THE SHREW) (CW: Domestic Abuse)

1.) We had to read this for English my senior year. I got so mad at the way she's treated. She's the titular "shrew" of the play. She has to be married off before her younger sister can get married, because that makes sense.

Then the most dogshit man imaginable comes along, and everybody thinks they're perfect. He literally gaslights her and denies her food and water.

Fuck Petruchio and Katherine Minola deserved better!

2.) Literally the whole play is about how she is so awful that the main guy needs to change her entire personality, which he does as a challenge not because he likes her, and then proceeds to her abuse her for the rest of the play. Yet, he is portrayed as the hero, not a villain and she is shown to have "improved" at the end. People will say, oh it's open to interpretation, it can be played different ways, it's satire, but i don't find abuse funny and there is a distinct lack of commentary in the play to count as satire imo. Taming of the Shrew is a tragedy not a comedy, I will die on this hill. Kate deserves better!

3.) The title isn’t joking, ya’ll. She literally gets broken like a rebellious feral animal and it’s treated as a happy ending.

BARBARARA GORDON (DC COMICS) (CW: Ableism)

1.) Famously fridged in 1988, which was so popular with misogynists it became canon. After almost 2 decades of being one of the only disabled characters, was rebooted to a younger, more fun version of herself whose only history is that she was fridged but not disabled by it.

2.) The Killing Joke is one of the biggest comic examples of a female character getting hurt to motivate male characters. Also tbe way different cannons will trade off who her romantic intrest is out of Batfamily is pretty disturbing ranging from Bruce Wayne in Batman the Animated series universe (ew) to Tim Drake in the Arkham games (ew). Not to mention DC now is not letting her grow out of being Batgirl taking away her legacy of other young female heroes taking up her mantle and her getting to mentor them instead forcing her into a Batgirl cycle of purgatory when she was always better as Oracle (Its a little more complicated in the new Batgirl book but its still not solving the issues in a way that feels meaningful enough to make up the damage).

3.) Was shot as angst value for Bruce and her dad, implied to be sexually assaulted in The Killing Joke with absolutely no respect for her long career as Batgirl. When Alan Moore asked if he could, the editor said "cripple the bitch." She became paralyzed from the waist down. THankfully, an actually good writer picked her up from there and then wrote one of the best stories ever written (Oracle Year One: Born from Hope). Was one of the most iconic disabled characters in comic book history, hell, as Oracle, she was definitely up there as one of the most iconic disabled characters ever as well as a fantastic character, period. There were a few moments where people kept trying to make things out of her disability and had her be shitty to other women for no reason but for the most part, she was awesome. During her time In 2011, Dan Didio and some other misogynistic/ableist comic book writers were responsible for "curing" her disability and forcing her back into Batgirl, despite her having shown absolutely no desire to do so, as part of the New 52. They also made it an editorial mandate that she couldn't have glasses, a cool secret base, and her time as Oracle couldn't be referenced. This was because those writers were nostalgic for the 60s Batman show where Babs was played by an actress they all had the hots for and couldn't accept she'd grown up and moved on. That was bad enough, but over time, she's been increasingly deaged and reduced even further to just Dick Grayson's on and off again girlfriend and a generic girlboss. Batgirl of Burnsides burn in hell.

#polls #round 1 #week 2 #new #cw domestic abuse #cw ableism

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voiddaisy · 19 days

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Rank the Batfam members based on how well you think you'd get along irl

This is so fun! Okay, so my idea of canon versus fanon is kind of messed up, but I'm going to do my best to go solely off of what I know is canon. I also went a little overboard and did some character study shit because when I tell you I love the bat family, I love the bat family.

(1) Duke Thomas. From what I know about canon, we are really alike. He has a strong moral compass, wants to help people, and can be super goofy and silly. He doesn't really take things super seriously, cares a lot about his family, and is not afraid to lie to Bruce, which I am a supporter of. I think overall we would get along the best just because we are so alike. He also just seems so chill and fun to be around, and I've made a post about this before, but he is so nonjudgmental when it comes to his friends and family, so nonchalant, and literally just the cutie patootie ever, so for sure him.

(2) Stephanie Brown. I love Steph and no one can take that away from me. She reminds me a lot of one of my sisters; She is very witty and humorous, and she is determined, stubborn, and compassionate. She tries to have a positive outlook on everything, despite everything she has been through. I think we would get along well because she is kind of my opposite in a lot of ways. She is outgoing, confrontational, and rebellious, but still vulnerable, caring, and selfless. We would kind of just be a slay duo in my opinion.

(3) Dick Grayson. If I didn't relate so much to Duke, I would definitely say I am the most like Dick. He is a perfectionist, very sarcastic, caring, and literally rocks "eldest daughter syndrome," which... same. He is also such an emotional person, and most of his emotions come out in anger because he doesn't know how to regulate them, which I can relate to. He has that personality that is so easy to banter with but also gets vulnerable, which we see a lot in the comics when it comes to his brothers. I just think our personalities would blend really easily together.

(4) Barbara Gordon. Barbara is literally that bitch. She is super intelligent, determined, hard-working, and responsible while also being empathetic, funny, independent, and wise. She takes so many of the bat kids under her wing as a mentor and tries to build them up to be better people (literally fixing what Bruce messes up). She is super funny and cool, is clearly intelligent without having to flex on it, and cares so deeply for people. If I had an older sister, I'd want her to be just like Babs, because this woman is literally gold. She isn't higher on this list just because I just connect with the other characters more, but she is still just such a good character and I love her so much.

(5) Cassandra Cain. I think I would get along well with Cass because she is a very complex person. She is silent, stoic, determined, responsible, deeply empathetic, and has self-esteem issues. I share a lot of these traits with her, but I'm more... outgoing than she is? So it would be like a bad bitch and her baddie friend situation where I am a yapper and advocate for us both when I normally wouldn't be. She'd encourage my more outgoing side to come out because of how stoic and quiet she can be. She is also like the better version of Bruce Wayne (sorry Bruce), where she still has that intense sense of justice and a strong moral compass, but because she cares so deeply about her friends and family, she puts them first, whereas Bruce kind of... struggles with that lmfao. That is just my interpretation of her, though!

(6) Jason Todd. I actually didn't plan on putting him this high on the list, but after I started typing it out, I was like... oh. I would get along with him better than I thought. Okay, so what annoys me about him is mainly his sense of justice, rebellious nature, complex moral code, and anger. However, these are all issues that stem from his insane trauma and aren't like natural-born traits of his. When he was Robin, he was very playful, witty, kind, and sweet, as a lot of people mention. Despite how he changed after the Lazurus Pit, we still see these personality traits slip through sometimes. He cares a lot about the street kids and does his best to mentor them. In the Gotham Knights cames (which apparently aren't canon but I don't care), he can be very vulnerable and kind to his brothers instead of... beating Tim half to death. Jason is a very emotional character with loyal and protective instincts, and he desires redemption so deeply that he doesn't care how it is acquired. His complexity is what makes me drawn to him, I think. To recognize him as a person who is deeply traumatized and needs positive reinforcement in his life is easy; To give that positive reinforcement is harder. But I think I could offer that to him (and I have the "I can fix him" mentality. Would I be able to fix him? No. Could I be a good friend to him? Maybe). My major qualms with him would be his skewed sense of justice and his moral code; Everything else is like typical emo behavior haha.

(7) Tim Drake. I did not expect Tim to be so low on this list, but I guess it's more of a little brother-type situation. Tim is very intelligent, analytical, determined, empathetic, and compassionate. He shares a lot of traits with Dick, where he is a natural kind of leader and has a deep resourcefulness to him. He can be very self-critical and lacks a need to take care of himself, but he is a team player and can be very responsible. He is also just kind of like... the funniest bat brother to me. It's his sarcasm and the way he picks on people, I think. While he is a good character, I just think I would get frustrated with his stubbornness very quickly. He also just has that little brother attitude that gets on my nerves. But I do think that I would be like a big sister figure to him if that makes sense? Like "you love to hate them" type of shit.

(8) Damian Wayne. Okay, to preface; Damian is just a deeply traumatized kid, so my reservations are literally just about that. I have what you would call a chronic need to fix people, and Damian would just be so easy for me to try to fix, even if I knew I couldn't. He has a skewed sense of justice, like Jason does, but is easier to convince not to kill people. He is stoic, cold, can be emotionless at times, and does not want people to take care of him. I saw some panel yesterday about Dick trying to comfort him after Bruce dies, and Damian is so choked up and doesn't want to speak about it, despite Dick being his older brother. Damian has literally been trained since birth to focus on his mission, his feelings be damned, and I would have such a hard time with that. I would just get so emotional over him and want to take care of him, and he would hate that. I just think that he wouldn't like me very much. I love Damian as a character and I love how complex he is, but he would not love me lmfao.

(9) Bruce Wayne. I knew Bruce was going to be last because there is a special place in my heart reserved for my beef with parents who fuck up their kids. Even though Bruce tries to be a good father to his kids, he is just so shit at it sometimes, and it makes me so mad. In my real life, any time my parents fuck with one of my sisters, I get so irrationally angry and want to fist-fight them. If I was around Bruce and his traumatized children, I would want to throw hands with him every time I saw him. I know that deep down, Bruce is a really good man who just wants to help people, but the way he treats his children literally just boils my blood. I would get along with him if he either didn't have children or had some deep-rooted therapy to fix his emotional constipation. I mean... we would get along fine I'm sure, I would just always have that rage, you know?

This was way longer than I intended it to be, but I have been doing so much character study lately about these people and wanted to share my opinion on each of them in a broader way. If I messed up their character in relation to DC canon... oh well. Also, I know Jason Todd is a little bitch, but he is my little bitch, so it's fine.

Thank you for the ask <3 this was so fun!!

#bat family #batman #dc comics #headcanons #character study #icarus yaps #duke thomas #stephanie brown #dick grayson #cassandra cain #jason todd #barbara gordon #tim drake #damian wayne #bruce wayne

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angelsdean · 1 year

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What's interesting about even the busty asian beauty thing is that he never says anything like that about asian women in reality/outside of porn. Like it doesn't make the 'joke' ok, it's definitely still gross, but it's porn, it's 'fantasy'. Despite sam saying he confuses porn and real life I think dean separates the two in his brain and his actions towards real people don't really align with sam's comment. Dean isn't perfect but some corners of fandom really make him sound way grosser than he is

First off, just need to point blank say, the BAB stuff is horrible and gross and always made me super uncomfortable whenever it would pop up on the show. And it's VERY much a writer problem. The writers either had to be extremely unaware or just didn't care abt how gross and fetishizing that magazine is for it to keep recurring like it did in the show. This is one of those instances where, yes, you could absolutely do a critique of Dean + fetishizing asian women and that would totally be valid because it is canonically in the show, but for me I just can't get past it being such a glaring writing issue and it doesn't feel aligned w/ a lot of Dean's character.

But god do I have a lot to say abt Dean + porn in general from a Dean studies perspective. I've wanted to make a proper post abt this for a long time but I want to provide more specifics so I gotta wait until I'm further along in my rewatch. But the gist of it is that for me and in my interpretation, the majority of Dean's porn consumption is very much clearly separate from reality. He tends to prefer over the top, borderline cringe and cheesy productions. Like those Casa Erotica films. And if you read Dean as someone who likely did some form of sex work for survival (very possibly underage as well) I think it makes a lot of sense for Dean to prefer these very obviously staged films instead of some kind of amateur thing.

Like, no doubt there are huge problems in the porn industry, not arguing that, but from Dean's perspective these over the top staged performances feel safer. These women are clearly performers and less likely to be some vulnerable person being nonconsensually filmed or forced to do these acts. I think he likes that it's fake. Even his love of anime and tentacle porn like, those things are so clearly fake. And in this case, they're animated! There is no real person that could potentially be a victim. There's a distance between reality and fantasy for Dean, and again this is purely my own headcanons and interpretations, but I think for him, if he had a traumatic history with sex work (which again, likely was more for survival and therefore not really a 'choice' or something empowering for him) then this sort of cheesy porn would feel very safe and comfortable for him and less likely to trigger past trauma or other uncomfortable feelings. Even when he meets that porn star, he's very star struck in a "fan" sort of way, which again highlights that he views those films as well, films, and he recognizes that it's all fake. I'm pretty sure he even like, compliments her on her talent and performance. Because he knows it's a job and an act. But yea there's just so much more that could be said about this.

#i think i basically made the post i wanted to make lol. but i will expand more as i watch more #but yea that boy is very aware of the line between fantasy and reality and he Likes when it's Fake imo #replies #dean studies #tw sex work mention #mymeta #dean and sex

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mistress-of-vos · 2 months

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For the ask game Ra'sTim (yes predictable I know but I just adore how you write them to the point where I want more information)

Ra'sTim

SHIP IT!!! 💚💚💚

Okay yeah I'm very loud about them but I'm still so so happy you asked about Ra'sTim! I'd talk about them all day. This is probably gonna be long 😅

P.S. Thank you! I'm happy you enjoy my work ❤️

1. What made you ship it?

Okay this is such an easy yet complex question. I have looked back and realized I was writing past/implied Ra'sTim on my fic notebook back on 2014 (give or take) when I was newly done reading Red Robin. I'm unsure exactly *how* is started because before 2020 I had been on an extreme Transformers fixation, and my memories are fuzzy. I believe I was shipping Ra'sTim as a background ship without fully realizing I was doing it (it should also be noted I started as a KonTim religious fan, and grew into a JayTim girlie). I actually read two of my fav Ra'sTim fics back in those years (around 2014-2015), which were in Spanish, but they had a Ra'sTim portrayal that would mark my views, as the characters make the dynamic very different to the most popular ships in fanfom.

It was at the beginning of 2020 when I went back to DC, and funnily enough climbed quickly from JayTim to BruTim and started writing an ongoing fic. While doing so, I re read past fics I remembered I used to love, and went back to read comics as well. Suddenly, after reading Red Robin again, I was looking at Ra'sTim through different glasses. And it was something happening to me in many levels, as I was also getting a bit away from Kon & Jason and more into characters as Babs & Jean-Paul. I wondered what *more* there could be to Ra'sTim, and started reading more of Ra's. As I read and explored Tim in my writing, I realized I wanted them together.

I'm unsure about how to call it. The feeling was almost of enlightenment, like suddenly seeing something that has always been there yet for some reason you couldn't distinguish its shape. Perhaps being a Megatron/Starscream shipper helped, because I saw the potential of Ra'sTim and decided to explore the possibilities and their tones of gray.

At first Ra'sTim wasn't my main ship (although I was already writing it), but as I explored them, the more I felt it was a dynamic that came naturally to me, and scenarios I found more enjoyable.

The more I read their comics and explored them in my writing, the more they felt *right*. Perhaps it was meant to happen, as I can admit they fall a lot more into my tastes in fiction. Ra's as a character drives me insane with his potential and lore, and Tim stays as my favorite bat boy and who I believe changed the Batman mythos.

And yet, everything was born from a simple panel. "You are a very dangerous young man."

2. What are your favorite things about the ship?

Oh, this is a tricky one!

I like their dynamic a lot, as I'm an open immortal/mortal sucker. And that does play a huge thing in my view of them and why I come back to Ra'sTim again and again despite having other fixations. The fact that Ra's has such a complex background and is not your usual western interpretation of an immortal (let's say a vampire) is also a fav thing of mine, as I think it allows stories with him to leave usual storytelling and challenge beliefs about good & evil. The fact that he believes he's *good* and a hero is particularly tasty as well, and mixed with Tim's need for helping others and guilt when he's not useful to the world (and Batman), gives a wonderful meal.

Their size difference is extremely hot too.

Aaaaand having a canon mutual interest where they are connected in a mysterious, unavoidable way, it's a cherry on top.

Lastly, I adore their contrast as characters and how they will allow the other to win a little battle in order to win another. It's a game of cat and mouse.

3. Is there an unpopular opinion you have on your ship?

I have unpopular opinions on most characters and ships. Some of them I feel comfortable expressing and others... Not much.

With Ra'sTim I have many of them, but mostly, it's that I loathe how other ship fandoms use Ra's as a random villain to hurt Tim and prop up another ship. For me, that's almost insulting, as Ra's is already a hurt character broken by many writers at DC. For me Ra'sTim it's never about "evil, mean Ra's hurting Tim because villains do that" and even less would I do it for another ship. I enjoy dark Ra'sTim, but never to hurt the characters.

My unpopular opinion then would be about the characters, perhaps. I don't see Ra's being cruel to Tim without reason, because in my mind, Ra's feels *love* and he cares for Tim. And Tim loves him back. They are just messy and won't communicate well, but that doesn't mean Ra's will go full evil and that Tim is a damsel in distress needing saving.

I don't see Ra's as an abuser. Neither do I see Tim as a helpless victim. And I believe this narrative hurts all characters involved without real motive besides wanting to prop up someone else and being too lazy as to read a less known villain or writing an original one.

#rastim #ra'stim #tim drake #ra's al ghul #ra's al ghul x tim drake #shipping #pro shipping #proship #ask game #ship game #my opinion

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evilwickedme · 1 year

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👀 I would love to hear more about aroace Jason

so there's actually a nice amount of canon evidence for this, most of which was not intended to be canon evidence for this. I saw many of these panels on tiktok originally and unfortunately many of them have been deleted, but at least one that I have bookmarked is still up by user goodusername28 so you can go check that out.

anyway, to sum up, robin!jason is a precious baby who was written to be simply too innocent to understand why people want romantic relationships, but also he was fourteen/fifteen at the time which when many people (including myself!) get in their first relationships and even fall in love for the first time, and him expressing disgust at Bruce being in a romantic relationship can also easily be read as him not being able to understand or relate to wanting to have a relationship at all.

when it comes to adult!jason, honestly he hasn't really had the time to date that much, but the few relationships that they do try to give him all seem to crash and burn really quickly and he never seems to me to be that invested, or the relationships even happen entirely off screen (apparently after they've hooked him up with rose wilson in a couple of elseworlds stories {there's one where they're married I think??}, they decided to mention that he and rose "used to date" in canon. when tho. literally when. he don't got the time!). in n52 rhato he simply does not catch onto the fact that a stereotypically hot flight attendant is hitting on him and once they do go on a date seems honestly surprised that she'd want to kiss him. canonically they do fuck, but a. acearo people still have sex b. scott lobdell can't write, so I take what I want from his shitty writing and leave the best behind. they also repeat the whole jason being weird about consenting adults being in relationships around him sometimes as an adult, which is just hilarious cause they also insist on writing him as someone who fucks. pick a struggle, dude.

canonically the first time jason has sex is with talia shortly before he returns to gotham, and when you read the issue it's just. honestly, he doesn't express any attraction to her and I don't understand why he slept with her and it makes their already weird relationship basically incoherent, which is why so many fics ignore it happening altogether. but when it comes to my headcanon, if I choose to acknowledge that was a thing that went to print? it was about comfort. like, she is the only thing that's really familiar and safe for him right that moment, and if she comes onto him and you choose not to interpret that as an assault, it's gotta be that he accepts for that reason. and that's not desire.

there is more evidence, some specific panel stuff, but like obviously this is an interpretation that dances around canon. dc comics does not want us to think that jason is aroace. jason is a hot anti-hero, obviously he fucks. except like. he really doesn't. he's so fucking bad at relationships. he does not have any steady romantic interests. except for damian, who's still a literal child (and even then still has had a romantic interest in teen titans apparently), he's simply had the least romantic plotlines of all the robins (tim and steph count for each other, for one, plus after this week's issue of batgirls you can basically count stephcass as canon, dick has had numerous love interests with the most notable ones being babs and kory, obviously, and tim is the actual slut of the family, like dude really gets around).

and honestly I just like it? like I think it vibes with his character very well. if I'm writing him, I'm probably either writing him as demi or as aroace, depends on the story I'm telling. I have yet to come across a bad a-spec!jason fic (I've already rec'd all the ones I have tho, so go ahead and make new ones I'd fucking love that). it's just a solid headcanon.

to go into more detail about my specific headcanon, in my mind jason really hasn't had the chance to figure out that he is ace. I don't think he's even had the chance to figure out he has "equal attraction" to both genders. like my guy's been through a lot. he was a teenager and then he exploded and then he came back to life and was cutting heads off people and then he was a villain for a bit and then his dad died and then his dad wasn't dead and then reality got rewritten and he was a part of this team and then he was part of batman incorporated and then another team and also his brother died but it turned out his brother wasn't really dead and then his other brother died and this brother really was dead but he was brought to life by his dad and then his dad had amnesia and there was -

okay so basically what I'm saying is I don't know how anybody in the batfam has time for a romantic life, but certainly jason has not had the time or emotional space to figure out he does not want one. I don't think he looks at other people and wonders why he's not in a relationship, he's too busy being a crime lord and/or having daddy issues. like if he's going to be looking at strangers and longing for what they have it's like, a superficially happy and loving father/son relationship. he wants very much to belong and to be loved. but both canonically and in my own headcanon, he's not particularly motivated by romantic love.

anyway so yeah acearo jason fucks. or wait, no, that's -

#gklraenglanlkalknh #I just really loved this headcanon #acearo jason todd #a spec jason todd #demi jason todd #jason todd #batfam #rhato #dc #gail speaks #ask #anonymous #oh my god I just found out I can edit tags on desktop I didn't know they'd rolled that out already #'to sum up' who was I kidding #aroace jason todd #jason todd my beloved #jt

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fantastic-nonsense · 2 years

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Okay, prepare for some salt and I do apologize but from what I remember in some issues of the Nightwing solo book, Both Bruce and Barbara often discuss of Dick’s romance with Kory being “temporary”, “driven by lust” and other stuff like that. Am I misreading that or that was legitimately the case? If the latter, then even though I do respecting fans who DickBabs sincerely, those panels make me double take to put it very mildly.

It wasn't true. Those panels are, to put it bluntly, soft retcons by specific authors to prop up Dick/Babs as a relationship by devaluing both Dick/Kory and the impact Kory had on Dick's growth and understanding of romance. It's also an incredibly sexist way of viewing both women, because it reduces both characters to "who's better for Dick/who does he care more about?" instead of the unique things that Kory and Babs brought to their relationships with Dick and how Kory and Babs grew alongside Dick as much as he grew alongside them.

Dick genuinely loved Kory and it was not "driven by lust" as a few later authors tried to dismiss. It's an unfortunate fact that several post-90s authors have participated in the "whore-ification" of Starfire by interpreting her sexually liberated mindset in a negative way and projecting that interpretation onto her relationship with Dick when that very much wasn't true.

It's also true that both women have been written at various points as being immature, insecure, and slightly catty about Dick's relationship with the other, because the men who wrote those comics (plus Devin Grayson) simply could not concieve of a world where 1) women can remain good enough friends with their exes to wish them well in a new relationship without thinking misogynistic thoughts about the new woman and 2) women are secure enough in their relationship to trust their boyfriend with the ex he's still on good terms with.

In the same way that Batcat vs. Brutalia often gets reduced to immature catfights and "who's better for him" instead of simply acknowledging that both women have their own strengths and have both had an enormous and undeniable impact on Bruce's life, Dickkory vs. Dickbabs discussions often become a race to see who can insult, put down, and demonize your non-preferred love interest first, and this (tragically) translates into canon depictions of both relationships.

tl;dr "Dick genuinely loved Kory and while their relationship fell apart for a lot of different and well-founded reasons, it was absolutely not because it was a shallow, sex-based relationship or because Dick didn't really love her. Writers who insinuate otherwise are wrong and should feel bad about perpetuating misogynistic shipping tropes."

#asks #dc comics #dick grayson meta #koriand'r #starfire #barbara gordon #I am a DickBabs stan on main but the way some writers portray them is INSUFFERABLE #@the dickbabs writers who perpetuate the Madonna-Whore Complex: I hate you and you can go die #also every time I see DickKory vs. DickBabs discourse: 'oh no here we go again'#Dick Grayson ship wars my BELOATHED

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inamindfarfaraway · 2 years

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Dark Oracle AU

Okay, I need to expand on this concept. I present my personal idea of a timeline from the canon state of affairs (or, well, my interpretation of them because comics are so inconsistent and full of crap, basically pre-New 52 with Duke) to Big Sister dictatorship!

The Batfamily is battling a really serious threat, like Ra’s al Ghul or the Court of Owls or a supervillain alliance or something. It’s a big deal. Very high stakes. The only reason they’re even attempting a mission this risky is because, thanks in large part to their resident information-finding specialist Barbara, they have a great deal of knowledge in advance and are sure they’ve planned for every possible outcome, as Bats tend to do. Except the villain has a secret advantage, another trick up their sleeve. There’s no way Babs could have found out about this, but of course she doesn’t believe that and blames herself, as Bats tend to do. The heroes aren’t prepared and in the chaos none of the contingency plans they’re able to execute work. By the time they defeat the threat… Black Bat and Batgirl are dead. Steph is killed first, heroically sacrificing herself, and Cass, the nearest to her, is caught off-guard in her shock.

I’m sorry! I am! But I truly think that Babs could not properly turn evil if she had Team Batgirl to remind her of her definition of heroism, of her own lingering inner Batgirl. She needs to just be Oracle. Cass is buried in the Wayne Manor cemetery; Steph in a public one the closest to the same distance from the Manor and Crystal’s house. They both get memorials in the Batcave.

Babs shuts down in depressed and self-hatred. She watched her daughter figures, her protégés, her Batgirls die because of (in her mind) her inadequacy. She feels like she’ll similarly fail at anything she tries to do now. She quits being Oracle and withdraws from the Batfam and her father. Remember, she has an eidetic memory, and watched and heard Steph and Cass’s deaths via the family’s mask cameras. They’re all she can see when she closes her eyes. Those screams are always ringing in her ears.

Meanwhile, Bruce takes this about as well as he took losing a child/young vigilante he inspired and mentored the last two times, but doubled. Although he and Alfred have enough experience that he doesn’t get quite as bad as fast as when Jason died, he’s still significantly more antisocial, aggressive, reckless and self-destructive and isolates himself more over the first months afterward. Jim notices the disappearance of Black Bat and Batgirl and the sadly familiar changes in Batman’s behaviour and puts the pieces together. He offers Batman what comfort he can, but is simultaneously worrying about Babs on top of his job. Crime rates go up whenever the Batfam’s numbers decrease.

The remaining Batkids are distraught. Other than Jason, they grow closer in their shared grief. Jason is off on his own turning his pain into violence even more savagely than normal. He recognizes that he’s falling back on his terrible coping mechanisms and doesn’t want to hurt his family this time, so he just doesn’t interact with them. Tim is hit especially hard due to being the closest to Cass and Steph - not to mention that he in particular so fucking sick and tired of his loved ones dying across his teenage years. He’s very unstable. Steph was one of the key people who taught Damian how to have fun and be a kid, and how important it was, so without her he’s more liable to forget that and backslide into acting cold, aloof, violently temperamental, etc.. Duke is made acutely aware of how short life is and that anyone he cares about could die at any time, so he actually strengthens his friendships with the We Are Robin kids. They can break down and be vulnerable with each other in private, but mostly push themselves harder because they each feel that it’s their duty to both keep Gotham safe and prevent Bruce and their siblings going off the rails. Dick is probably the least emotionally vulnerable because he has the most practice bottling up intense grief effectively and, with Bruce’s psychological decline and constant busyness, steps up more as the Responsible Adult alongside Alfred.

Bruce forbids Tim, Duke and Damian to go into the field and Dick agrees, because can they stop losing family for five minutes? A number of restrictions are implemented to uphold this. It’s Tim, Duke and Damian, though, of course they get out anyway. Helping people directly is one of the only sources of serotonin they have.

This is when things really start to go to hell: Bruce is killed. Because of his recklessness and accelerated by his poor health due to neglecting self-care. Because he charged into a dangerous fight alone, Alfred in the chair occupied with the Batkids. Because, Babs can’t convince herself otherwise, he didn’t have Oracle watching his back. The Batkids really could not stop losing family for five minutes. He’s buried right next to his daughter, the death dates just three months apart. Memorial in the cave, natch. But they don’t pretend he isn’t dead this time, so the whole city must mourn its Dark Knight. There are huge memorial services, statues made of him. Jim cries a lot. He already lost Harvey, now Bats?

Oh yeah, and - released a little later to throw people off and let them form a convincing cover story - Bruce Wayne is dead too. A massive blow to Gotham’s morale and even greater surges in crime follow. Their inspirational ray of sunshine and hope and belief in humanity is suddenly gone forever, and so soon after their original and most accomplished superhero. Who are they going to believe in now? Well… at least they still have the rest of the vigilantes.

Babs returns to work. Throws herself into it the way other people throw themselves off bridges. She stays on more formal terms with the Batfam at first, but does reconnect with them over time. She moves Cass and Steph’s memorials to the Clocktower “for motivation”, and this is evidently effective, seeing how she goes into overdrive and is soon leading and coordinating everyone alongside Dick. Gotham is floundering without Bruce and Batman and she refuses to let it fall into anarchy. She’ll be its Oracle, guiding it to a brighter future. She’ll never not know or foresee something ever again. She can’t. Jim is getting extremely worried.

If she’s doing badly, Bruce’s own children’s mental states can be summarised as deep shit. Everyone embraces the family’s classic coping mechanisms, workaholism and emotional repression, harder to try to cope with the chaos. Tim takes over more Wayne Enterprises responsibilities. You know, ‘cause he doesn’t have enough on his plate. Unlike last time, Bruce is definitely permanently dead and he doesn’t take that well. Alfred… is going through it. Sorry, Alfred. A small comfort is that Jason is inspired to treasure his remaining family and he and his siblings and grandad work on repairing their relationships.

Things don’t go Gotham meets Oceania overnight. Babs eroding her code of ethics to the point of evil dictatorship is a slow process, the kind you may not even register until it’s happened. One year after Bruce’s death she’s composed enough to run for mayor, still cripplingly afraid and resentful of Oracle’s limitations. She needs political control over Gotham to make it a better place in the long run. Who are the people going to believe in now? Barbara Gordon! Her loved ones are proud and supportive of her, having been reconnecting with her lately, if concerned that she isn’t processing her grief that much even compared to the rest of them. Her policies are focused on security and reforms to the police force and legal system that aim to reduce crime and corruption, which in the context of the soaring crime rates and spiralling despair of the Gotham public all seem wonderful to many. Surely, things at least can’t possibly get worse than they have been. She wins in a landslide.

The mayor’s power plus Oracle’s power soon goes to Babs’s head. Over the next year she slips from hero to antihero to a darker shade of grey. Her level of surveillance gradually moves out of the reasonable zone. Her patience for disagreement wears thin. When the Batfam or law enforcement take down a crime organization, she will siphon off their assets and information to consolidate her power rather than redistribute all of it to the people. For the greater good, obviously!

This culminates two years after Bruce’s death when Oracle defeats the Court of Owls with a cunning scheme (if they’re the ones who killed the Batgirls, this part hits extra hard): she fakes an alliance with them to set up a double cross, her ‘downpayment’ of information to gain their trust being false and luring their high command into a massive vigilante and police ambush. But Babs doesn’t dismantle the Court like the Bats expect her to. She takes control of it and integrates its vast, rich archives and information network into her own, now essentially omniscient regarding Gotham’s criminal underworld. She also uses the Court’s under-the-table connections to manipulate political and legal proceedings. It’s great for eliminating all corruption besides her own.

This move triggers the ideological conflict that’s been brewing amongst the Batfam to spill over into a devastating fight. Babs and Dick are at the forefront. Babs is accused of tyranny and selfish ambition, Dick and his allies of holding onto a naive, obsolete ideal of protection, both sides feeling betrayed and that the other is “becoming what they fought against”. It’s very emotionally charged. Very painful and bitter for everyone involved.

In the end Alfred, Dick, Jason, Duke and Damian leave in regret and disgust. To explain why them: Alfred is never turning evil. We all know that. The fabric of the universe would unravel if he did. Dick is likewise functionally incorruptible because he’s Dick Grayson, he’s the light of the DC universe. He is utterly heartbroken though. Him and Babs being enemies is the maximum angst option, I couldn’t not take it. Jason has already been through a ‘using villainous methods to protect Gotham how Batman won’t because a) I genuinely believe the ends justify the means and b) my mental health is a train wreck’ phase and basically come out the other side. He isn’t gonna do that again, but as a subordinate. Him and Duke’s backstories make them both more down-to-earth and grounded in the reality of the average and lower-class Gotham citizens’ everyday lives than anyone else in the Batfam, so they can see most clearly how Babs’s actions are harming their people. And Damian is closer to Dick and Duke than Babs, but also similarly to Jason did the edgy ‘morals hold you back, absolute punishment and terror will fight crime more efficiently’ thing and outgrew it. He learned to value human life and rights and swore his loyalty to the mentors who taught him this and their code. He learned how to reject the toxic bullshit the League of Assassins had been feeding him his entire life; it would insult his character growth in my opinion to have him accept Barbara’s toxic bullshit.

That leaves Tim to be Babs’s primary enforcer. Sorry, Tim. Someone had to do it. Between his severe psychological vulnerability and lack of his brothers’ personal experiences with immorality and insights into the average Gothamite’s life, I think it should be him. He’s also the CEO of Wayne Enterprises and involved in the Wayne Foundation and that pairs nicely with Babs’s data collection. Any Wayne Technologies device can covertly monitor people. To sever himself from the bat and bird motifs of the lost and unenlightened and show his allegiance to Oracle, he creates a new vigilante identity called Python. This is a reference to the Greek myth of a giant serpent called Python (from the original name of Delphi, Pytho, and the namesake of the snake classification) who resided in and guarded the site of Delphi, before Apollo killed it and installed his own prophetess Pythia in his place. He’s got a green scaly jumpsuit with armour plating. Two curved swords imitating fangs. Scale throwing blades. A penchant for nonlethal gas and aerosol tools like knockout gas, tear gas and smokescreens, in allusion to the natural hallucinogenic fumes at Delphi that led to its holy reputation. It’s cool. Sinister, but cool. Snakes don’t have eyelids, matching the relentless surveillance theme. Fun fact: pythons eat bats and small birds.

Shock of the century, Babara “Heaps of Recent, Untreated PTSD From Losing Loved Ones and Compulsive Need to Always be Aware and On Top of Everything” Gordon doesn’t take being ditched by all but one of her found family in stride. She has a total breakdown, blames herself for not being able to make them see things her way and lashes out by cracking down even harder on the populace. She’s accordingly immensely grateful for Tim staying and very protective of him. Were he to leave her too, it could be enough to shatter her.

The five rebels join the Birds of Prey, who leave Barbara after hearing how she turned on them, the Gotham City Sirens, Holly Robinson, Slam Bradley, Duke’s We Are Robin friends and a number of other malcontents, including Crystal Brown, to form a resistance. This alliance is called the Shadow Guard - ‘shadow’ because they literally are largely nocturnal, but furthermore it’s a contrast and opposition to Oracle’s prying and shining a light onto things; a declaration both that they are her blind spot and that privacy, the unseen, the ability to keep people ‘in the dark’ deserves to be protected. They’re guardians in the real shadows and of the figurative ones. There’s the angle that they’re only shadows of the Batfamily at its peak and the people they were then too. The rebellion uses pre-internet technology to be safe, with the occasional exception of scavenged tech cut off from Babs’s network.

Mayor Gordon declares Nightwing, Red Hood, Robin and the Signal to be dangerous, untrustworthy public enemies, even suggesting that they’re responsible for the mysterious disappearances of Dick Grayson, Damian Wayne and Duke Thomas. This forces Jim, who’s been putting off realizing that his beloved daughter and the only family he has left is having a moral degradation arc in favour of softer appeals to her compassion, to confront that Babs is now pretty damn totalitarian and he cannot stand by any longer. He joins the Shadow Guard as a spy, and supplies resources, equipment and other employees with consciences to their ranks. His hope is that once her power is removed, Babs will have to face the consequences of her actions and come to her senses. The three year mark is when her directing of the police cycles around to be so militarized and oppressive that her initial real ethical reforms are trampled, vindicating Jim’s decision.

Why don’t external superheroes and the government officials intervene? Because Babs is still their information broker. She provides them with vital intel and has truckloads of dirt on all of them. She isn’t above passive-aggressively reminding people of her ability to ruin them to get them off her back, even demonstrating it by leaking sensitive information, causing a scandal, giving an advantage to a rival, etc. every now and then. The rest of the US is watching the events in Gotham thinking, as people so often do, “Someone should do something! …But it’s not gonna be me!” (For the sake of the plot just quietly ignore the Superfam and Wonderfam and Flashfam and so on, okay?). Besides, Gotham’s crime rates are the lowest they’ve ever been. Oracle is untouchable and none of the illicit activity can be traced back to Babs, or even proven at all most of the time.

Keep in mind, Babs still doesn’t technically directly kill anyone. Tim doesn’t either. He just arrests criminals and disturbers of the peace and hands them over to the justice system. Business as usual. When they and all records of them disappear overnight, and when nobody ever gets out of Blackgate or Arkham… well, questioning that isn’t in his job description, and Babs and his job are all he has left. He’s come too far to give them up.

Four years into Babs’s mayorship, Gotham’s settled into its continually worsening dystopian status quo under a utopian facade. The roll down the slope accelerates when Jim’s spying is discovered. Babs is horrified, furious and deeply hurt. She almost, almost backs down, but falls victim to the sunk cost fallacy and desperately reaffirms her self-righteousness. He has frustratingly durable moral integrity, so she orders him arrested to get him out of sight and out of mind because again, she cannot handle another loss. The rebel Batboys break him out, they fight Python and the police, it’s sad and dramatic. The rebels get away by the skin of their teeth, but they’re followed. A raid on their base deals harsh blows and gets a sizeable proportion of them arrested, killed or traumatized into submission. They regroup and try to find a way to take Oracle by surprise. Jim is now the Shadow Guard’s co-leader with Dick.

Gotham is peaceful. It’s orderly. Supervillains are a thing of the past. Barbara is like the oracles of legend: whatever she says will be, will be. Needless to say, she won’t have much competition in the upcoming mayoral election. From there, she plans to expand beyond Gotham. The only problem that remains is how to stop her treacherous family and lay the past to rest once and for all…

That’s the catch with oracle stories, isn’t it? In the end, you find you’ve become exactly what you most strived to avoid being. Think of King Oedipus, the archetypal Greek tragedy and ironic prophecy story: a just, wise and noble leader stubbornly seeking knowledge to protect their people from ruin in a time of great suffering, only for they themselves to be the criminal they were looking for and the cause of their city’s corruption.

I’m ending it here with a five year time difference and pretty much in the heroes’ darkest hour, because this is where I would have (my) canon Babs, Steph and Cass transported to this world to help bring dark Oracle down.

#babs: i’ve made a gotham where none of the entire batfamily’s tragic pasts could ever happen #dick: what about the kids whose parents don’t agree with everything you say?#babs:#dark oracle has the anime menacing reflective glasses effect a lot because a) scary and b) she is just emotional repression central #i just want to see black bat and batgirl fight and ethically debate a dictator version of their mentor #in the process deactivating and cracking the wall of giant surveillance screens in the clocktower #so that barbara is forced to finally confront her reflection fractured in darkness #is that too much to ask?#dark oracle au #barbara gordon #babs gordon #oracle #batfamily #batfam #stephanie brown #batgirl #cassandra cain #black bat #team batgirl #bruce wayne #batman #dick grayson #nightwing #tim drake #red robin #damian wayne #robin #duke thomas #the signal #alfred pennyworth

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lacrimosathedark · 2 years

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You know something I find annoying?

"[Insert comic book character] is so out of character in [Elseworld material]!"

You realize that no comic book character has consistent characterization, right? Like, in mainline comics?

Do you realize how many different writers comics have had? Writers for the same character who sometimes didn't read their history or straight up hate them for no reason and ruin them?

Like, people will wholly recognize Kory's "ooc-ness" in Red Hood and the Outlaws, or that Heroes In Crisis was "ooc" for Wally West and ignored it or made their own fixes (before DC backpedalled from the sheer backlash) but won't do the same for other characters.

My specialty being the Batfamily, I know people ignore some comics.

Bruce Wayne has canonically been both emotionally constipated to the point of not telling his children he loves them, but has also at times been very blunt about it because it's a fact.

Bruce also has, at times, hit his children. I personally ignore most of these instances.

Dick Grayson is overall been written as a kind and compassionate, if sometimes angry, person. Yet there's the canon history of him telling Babs "Don't make me regret having elevators put in this building" and sleeping with her to tell her he was marrying someone else.

Dick has a history of both being seemingly demisexual and also being slut-shamed.

Jason's personality has been thrown every which way and has too many times been given to writers who hated him. His character lacks consistency to the point where most people ignore his characterization outside of Under the Hood because it was huge for his character. Like, Battle For the Cowl was horrible; he was basically made a psychopath purely for the drama.

Tim's behavior, and the "Teen Titans" as a whole was so bad in the New 52 that it's overall ignored and/or retconned. One example I can think of is when Tim apparently slept with Cassie and also Solstice (who was seeing Bart, though this is Bar Torr not precious bean Bart Allen but still) despite Tim historically both being faithful despite being repeatedly accused otherwise and also being hesitant about sex. This was bad enough that it was retconned he was possessed by Trigon.

Stephanie is a mixed bag, in part because early misogyny but yknow.

Do I need to talk about Cass? There's a whole area about her turning against her core "Don't kill" tenent and becoming an assassin and trying to lure Tim to her side and kill him when he refused. This had to be retconned that she was drugged and manipulated by Deathstroke if I'm remembering right.

Outside the Batfam: remember when Clark fucking Kent had a machine that turned people black for Some Reason and Lois used it? And then asked Superman if he would love her even I she never changed back and he dodged the question?

Like...comics aren't like books where there's one consistent writer, or a TV or movie where there's a semi-consistent board of writers. These people change throughout this large history of these characters. Some of them are going to make mistakes. Some of them are going to be assholes who don't respect the characters.

Like, yes, complain when they are written very wrong so DC can know, but understand that "in-character" can be very loosely interpreted.

#dc comics #batman #bruce wayne #dick grayson #jason todd #tim drake #stephanie brown #cassandra cain #superman #clark kent

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desperatecheesecubes · 3 months

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I CANNOT get a read on you to save my life. Every ship you have ever badmouthed and shit on you proceed to reblog a multitude of ship art for. I don’t know if this is mania or you not giving af. I honestly fw you for it.

LMAO

Generally speaking I don’t hate any ships really? The only ones I’m strongly not about are the ones where in canon they have a familial bond (are siblings, are parent and child etc). That’s not for me but I’m ok to let other people do their thing in their space. Now there’s ships I like more than others -I’m insane about timkon, I’m neutrally supportive of Timber for instance. I love art. I think it’s so fun to see what people draw and how they think people interact. Sometimes someone does art for something I never would have considered! That’s the fun part of fandom, to me. The sharing of ideas and interpretations.

The only ship I can think of off the top of my head that I’ve probably bad mouthed would be DickBabs and that’s because so much of it has happened post N52 and taken all of Babs best character traits away, and is currently written by Tom Taylor who’s writing I find…. Bad. I loved their relationship in the 90s and early 2000s (and the little bit of precrisis that I’ve read of them) but I also grew up with the teen titans cartoon and most definitely have a bias for Dickory lmao.

So in summation; yeah it’s probably that I don’t give enough fucks lol

#mine #asked and answered!#I feel like there’s a bunch of characters I want to stay single too that in cannon I dislike seeing in relationships #but that in fanart I’ll reblog lol #I definitely sort the two into different spaces in my brain if that makes sense?#but thanks for fw me lmaoo #I’m just here to have a good time really

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notedchampagne · 2 years

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PLEASE tell us about your homestuck tlt au. (<- completely insane longtime hs enjoyer and more recent tlt fan)

reference to gideon/harrow the ninth spoilers under the cut! this is a very long post

okay so i havent actually fleshed anything out well enough because i LOVE just throwing shit at the wall until it sticks but there are a few pointers:

i DO think vrisrezi would be the most interesting in this because their dynamic is also very similar to griddlehark, and both of them would more or less die for each other/kill each other. considering their in-canon forever space chase trying to interpret that to tlt parameters makes me craaaazy. i think in this case terezi fits the cavalier ideal much better, with both of them being either second or fourth house since those are The soldier-machine houses. however i am thinking about it too literally.

third house would be sexyyyy with vrisrezi too

also i know everyone says griddlehark is davekat adjacent but holy shit the vrisrezi tones im getting from them. the chasing the reaching the insufferable agony of never being able to get to your best friend and worst enemy ever again. are you hearing this??

i think karkats a fail necromancer hes fucking PATHETIC he is either ninth or fourth house and wishes he was second soooo bad. this bitch is either the silly little bone priest outcast and fucking HATES it or he is raised in- again, baby soldier human cannon fodder-making planet- and STILL wishes he was better. he wants to be a lyctor so bad and while blinded by his wet dream of wanting to serve the emperor, never once considered the consequences of being immortal.

it would be interesting if he achieves whatever harrow mentioned when she half-digested "ortus", and becoming half a lyctor. i need his consequences to kick him miserably in the ass. whoever his cavalier is is yet to be determined it would be SO fucked up if it was dave though wouldnt it be (giggling) it would be so fucked up and insane that they, the pairing known for being similar and codependent enough to be one person daveandkarkat, karkatanddave, would end up being consumed into one person only for karkat to end up with the torment of having to face himself alone for the rest of his life? wouldnt that be awesome

ive also thought about what would happen if someone had consumed a cavalier, but not theirs. ideally it should be their cav so that their soul would go willingly but ianthe and babs showed that isnt necessarily the case

thus i present: feferi would be like if corona was a necromancer and i know eridan would be her naberius but! but! it would be interesting if sollux and eridan got into a duel paralleling murderstuck and in solluxs casualty feferi consumes Him

aradia, sollux, and equius 8th house, rose and dirk 6th house, glasspits 5th house, kanaya either 7th or a 9th house nun maybe, i also wanna keep the strilondes together but i think roxy would just be really really funny if she was in the 9th house with dave. if i were thinking about them singularly shed be in 7th

aradia and rose are both harranthe. at the same time. both of them. i believe in it

#tltstuck #talking back #homestuck #the locked tomb

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mysterycitrus · 5 months

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Hey!! Love your art and your meta posts. I was wondering about your thoughts on something because I don't think I've ever really read about much of it in canon (might be missing something though), but do the batkids have their own Brucie Wayne-esque personas? I figure they'd be expected to act a certain way, like they've been taking in by a party loving play boy, they're gonna be a at least somewhat spoilt social butterflies right? I just can't stop thinking about the kids hitting like teenhood and having to adopt and put on that kind of act because it would be a little suspicious if nothing about Brucie rubbed off on them. Maybe they steal Bruce's cars or crash a gala, something staged just for the tabloids like that. Idk, I just find the idea of (most of) the kids not being raised anything like that and having to act up in the name of keeping their identities safe really interesting because I don't think they'd find it fun, I think it would actually gross them out to throw around money and act like brats.

lovely anon this is SUCH a fun question and i shall answer it in parts. the first is this — what is the purpose of the bruce wayne persona?

bruce created a specific public image of himself for several reasons — to deflect any suspicion that he’s batman, to justify his frequent disappearances from the public eye, and to be consistently underestimated by people he was in opposition with (gothams corrupt elite, the gcpd, etc). the popular interpretation of this is that he’s like a kardashian, but to be honest id say he’s a lot more like a donatella versace— relatively reclusive but who occasionally pops up doing the weirdest shit ever. he posts on dick’s insta like bruce WAYNE ❤️

wrt his kids, no, i don’t think many of them have that sort of glamorised persona. part of it is that the “gala” trope in fandom just…… doesn’t really exist in the comics? like bruce will take vicki vale to an event, or go to a luthercorp thing to gather intel, but the idea of everyone hitting up an event at the gotham four seasons is not a common story beat. and even then, again, the performance has a purpose outside of just being a distraction.

in particular, u have to consider how his kids are different from bruce. jason and dick were both lower class, if not actively below the poverty line and acting spoiled won’t win them any favours. cass straight up isn’t interested in that kind of performance. damian is honest to a fault. duke has his own family that he’s proud of. when u consider that damian and cass and duke and dick also aren’t white, u have to think about how acting like a glitzy idiot would help them in the same way it would bruce. short answer — it very much wouldnt. many people will think less of them regardless. it would be dehumanising, and because none of them have that same degree of disconnection from the standard person that bruce has, how would them being seen as spoiled idiots help them?

dick has always lived with civilian neighbours, had civilian jobs, and fostered civilian relationships. him being a cop was bad, but he takes a lot of pride in being someone who’s like… dependable. a good neighbour. jason is legally dead, but he wouldn’t have wanted to be seen as the dumb poor kid either. cass would probably play with peoples expectations of her, but not like an established persona that she has to take on. duke is, again, very attached to his family and where he grew up, and is very aware of assumptions people might make about that. damian would rather kill himself than pretend to be an idiot. tim, again, is a strong maybe, but i also don’t think he’d give a shit. he really values keeping himself as tim drake intact, away from robin. he wants to keep being himself.

i just think most of them would stay out of the public eye. remember — bruce isn’t active online. there is still massive control over released information about him, especially with babs. i think they would purposely make themselves boring and unassuming.

the short answer is that none of them, truly, possess bruce’s raw commitment to the bit.

#bruce Wayne #dick grayson #jason todd #Cassandra cain #duke Thomas #batman #damian wayne #nightwing #dc comics #red hood #robin #the ask and the answer

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