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mysterycitrus · 6 months

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Clearly you’ve got a lot of opinions abt the characterisations of the batfam in fandom /pos

Can you elaborate on your interpretation for all of them? /gen

it’s called caring too much — and it’s incurable! wrt my personal interpretation, that's a long and complicated answer, so ill just focus on the internal character of the waynes (specifically bruce and his five canonical kids).

bruce wayne is a control freak, we know this. his parents were killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he has literally never ever been able to truly process it. the degree to which he is controlling - firing robins, survelling his allies without their consent, compiling personal information from others, disregarding others feelings in favour of his own - is all about trying to achieve the best possible outcome. everything he does is justified, because if he's in control then he can stop bad things from happening. it is all in favour of the greater good. it's the logic of an eight year old who's just lost everything and hasn't grown up.

if bruce's trauma manifests control then dick's manifests personal perfectionism. he holds himself to such an absurd standard because he's a flier - when you're catching someone on the trapeze you quite literally have to be there, always, ready to take their hand. if you don't, they fall. if there's no net, if dick isn't the net, then they die. he’s always swinging back out and in again, waiting for the next person to slip through his fingers. he does not fear falling, only what will happen when he hits the ground. he’s a born performer made to be an atlas, carrying an unbearable weight that anchors him to the earth.

jason after death is a tragedy of his own creation, and dc's worst crime is trying to justify the terrible decisions he makes. jason isn’t right, because what he wants is not about protecting other kids from his fate or being a better batman. he wants to be personally vindicated, even though he knows it's impossible. jason rejected himself, bruce, everything, in order to transform into a weapon to enact violence. deep down he's so angry, so hurt, that he'll go after other children - tim, damian, mia - and still decry bruce in the same breath. killing the joker, killing bruce, killing dick, killing every robin before or since won't take him back to who he was before. you cannot go back. you can never go back.

cass sees everything. she can't unsee it, she can't ignore it, nothing in the body can be truly hidden from her, but like bruce that doesn't mean she's always right. she killed a man and witnessed his death, and thus will never take another life. she is all knowing, but she was not born knowing herself. she's jason in reverse — she turns from steel to flesh and bone. she will do whatever it takes to be good. she has made herself real.

tim chose this life in the most literal sense of the word, and then kept choosing it. it’s his duty, it’s his honour, it has hollowed him out and left nothing behind. his tethers to the world snap one by one — janet and jack and darla and dana and steph and kon — and suddenly it’s much harder to extricate himself from the black. robin, dick grayson, is his guiding north star, but his north star is only human. he knows he is capable, he knows this is his choice, and he knows he has long since lost the chance to unchoose.

damian is raised in the shadow of the bat. he is born of blood. he knew death before he knew his father. he is a child. he is ancient. he is a killer. he only wants to do good. he loves his mother. his father is gone before he learns to love damian. damian loves someone else who wears the bat but does not carry wayne name. everything he knows about himself is questioned — robin is given to him, and suddenly he can decide his own fate, make his own family. he wants to be the best, but he doesn’t know what he wants that to mean anymore. he wants the chance to find out.

#sorry this got long! not sure if i actually answered ur question lol #batfam #dick grayson #bruce wayne #jason todd #tim drake #cassandra cain #damian wayne #nightwing #batgirl #batman #dc comics #the ask and the answer #dc meta #ig?

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mahoushojounightmares · 4 months

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There is something so fucking heartbreaking about Cass in Batgirl (2000) and i think its the way that she can forgive murderers and killers she can and will attempt to save a man from death row just because she believes they could of changed . She values human life to an absurd degree and in her perception every person matters and deserves to live . Every person except Herself .

She has a death wish constantly puts herself in danger risks her life fighting Shiva and very explicitly in the text wants to die and for what . . Because she killed a man at age 8 . After being horrendously abused and trained for murder by her father.Cass who loves and cherishes absolutely every one no matter what .Cass who saves Lady Shiva - Who has killed hundreds. She won’t kill Lady Shiva who chose to kill . But she wont forgive herself She who had no choice who killed a fatcat mob boss who largely probably brought no good to the world.

And she still wants to die because she doesn’t believe she is a good person.

Its a testament to her complete adoration and worship of life and her nauseating abuse at David Cain hand’s.

Because even after everything she still doesn’t truly believe her father a bad man for putting her through all that nightmarish abuse . She strictly views him as bad because he forced her to kill . It wasn’t her fault AND SHE KNOWS THAT.

But she still doesn’t forgive herself even if she can forgive anyone else on the planet. She still wishes for death.

#cass my baby #cassandra cain #cassandra cain meta #dc #dc comics #cass cain #dc meta #batfam meta #i adore batgirl (2000) i own every comic she appears in

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martyrbat · 1 year

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FUCKING GETS YOU.

#pov: you threatened his daughter and this is the last thing you see #(jkjk cass fucking kicked the meta's ass after thinking bruce failed to stop them)#id in alt btw :)#c: batgirl (2000) | i: 3 #crypt's panels #posts from the crypt #blorbos in the void #batman

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incorrectbatfam · 1 year

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Hello! While scrolling between random hurt/comfort fica I stumbled into a batfamily one and decided to give it a shot and now I am curious about this fandom! Never read any dc/marvel comic and watched maybe a couple of superhero movies so I have basically 0 knowledge about batman except that Robin is his apprentice but also apparently there's multiple Robins??

Can I have a general fandom/family introduction? I'm very confused but also really curious since I'm an avid found family enjoyer :)

What the heck is this fandom?

If you're reading this, you probably either a) want to get into comics but aren’t sure where to start or b) found yourself plopped in the middle and don't know what's going on.

DC Comics encompasses a wide range of characters and storylines with varying levels of popularity, and is home to some of the most iconic figures like Superman and Wonder Woman. What often happens in the DC and Marvel fandoms is that rather than trying to engage with everything, many fans will have a certain subset of content that they focus on. Sometimes it's a single character, sometimes it's a team like the Justice League, or sometimes it's a superhero family unit such as the Flash Family.

This blog primarily focuses on the batfamily, which is the group of characters that operate as Gotham City vigilantes centered around Batman. Some are legally/biologically related, some aren't. Generally speaking, the batfamily fandom is one of the larger subgroups within the DC fandom because so many of the comics revolve around these characters.

Who is Batman?

Are you living under a rock

Batman, AKA Bruce Wayne, begins with the infamous tragic origin where his parents were shot dead in an alleyway when he was 8, leaving him an orphan to be raised by his butler/surrogate father figure, Alfred Pennyworth. Once Bruce got a little older, he donned the costume to deal with criminals directly and bring justice to the city.

His civilian identity is Bruce Wayne, the (and I say this begrudgingly) billionaire CEO of his family's company, Wayne Enterprises. The company makes a little of everything and keeps Gotham afloat with job creation and philanthropy. Nothing unethical about one rich guy running an entire city.

His alter ego is Batman, and he uses his wit and extensive training to fight an array of both petty criminals as well as big-name villains like the Joker, the Riddler, Two-Face and more (collectively known as the Gotham Rogues gallery).

NOTE: some former villains, like Harley Quinn, have been rebranded as anti-heroes.

Batman operates out of a hidden cave (yes, a literal cave) under Wayne Manor known as the Batcave. This is where he keeps all sorts of high-tech paraphanalia, including his Batmobile, bat-plane, batarangs (bat boomerangs), and a powerful computer known as—you guessed it—the Batcomputer.

Batman's primary love interest is a former villain known as Catwoman, AKA Selina Kyle, who is a master thief. (Her backstory includes growing up with an abusive father and turning to stealing for survival.) She's since reformed and has been indicted into the Justice League. They're really cute if you don't think about how they're technically two furries who roleplay as cops and robbers.

NOTE: in an alternate timeline, Bruce dies as a child in that alley as Thomas Wayne becomes Batman while Martha Wayne becomes the Joker.

Okay, what about... Robin? Robins?

There's a lot to unpack here.

The OG Robin is Dick Grayson. Yes, we still call him Dick in the year 2022. He was a child acrobat who was part of a trio, The Flying Graysons, with his parents, John and Mary, in a traveling circus called Haly's Circus. Haly's stopped in Gotham, where a crime boss named Tony Zucco tried to get them to pay protection money. When Haly refused, Zucco sabotaged the trapezes and Dick's parents fell to their deaths. Bruce was at that show and because Orphans Unite or whatnot, he takes little Dick under his wing as a ward (not legally adopted at this point, Bruce is in his early to mid 20s). Dick joins Batman's crusade as the colorful pantsless sidekick known as Robin. As Robin, he also became the leader of what would eventually be a multigenerational superhero team known as the Teen Titans.

The second Robin is Jason Todd. He grew up in Gotham's notorious Crime Alley, where his mother, Catherine, was a substance user and his father, Willis, was an overall piece of garbage. After his father goes to jail and his mother dies of an overdose, Jason is essentially an orphan left to fend for himself on the streets. His run-in with Batman happens when he tries to steal to Batmobile tires to sell, and instead of getting punished, he gets adopted. Legally, this time. So while Dick is the oldest, Jason is Bruce's first kid. Jason takes on the Robin mantle and fights crime, yada yada. What he's well-known for is his death, where he set out to Ethiopia to find his biological mother, Sheila Haywood, and is killed by the Joker. Then Superman breaks reality and Jason comes back to life, spends some time with the League of Assassins, and gets rebranded as a crime lord/anti-hero with a hell of a grudge against Bruce for not avenging him.

While Jason was dead, we get our third Robin and the first one with pants: Tim Drake. Tim is actually Bruce's neighbor (the way rich people can be neighbors with spaced-out properties). He grew up with wealthy but neglectful parents, Janet and Jack Drake, who often left Tim home alone as a small child while they went on their archeology expeditions. Tim takes an interest in the Gotham vigilantes and sets out to follow them around and gather evidence to figure out who they are. Eventually, he deduces Bruce, Dick, and Jason's identities by some moves unique to the Flying Graysons. Then, Tim basically blackmails Bruce into letting him be Robin and has his own teenage superhero team called Young Justice. After the Robin title is taken away from him, he becomes Red Robin (yes, like the restaurant chain) and while everyone thinks Batman is dead during this time, Tim is the only one who believes otherwise. Also, his mom drinks poison, dad is killed by a boomerang, best friend is killed by an evil clone, other best friend is also killed by an evil clone, girlfriend dies (see below), assassins steal his spleen, and now he's bisexual and dating a boy who creates conspiracy theories.

NOTE: In an alternate timeline, Carrie Kelley becomes the third Robin.

Robin #4 is Stephanie Brown. She actually didn't become Robin until well into her vigilante career. She actually made a name for herself as Spoiler with the purpose of taking down her father, a D-list Gotham villain known as Cluemaster. Similar to everyone in this franchise, her childhood wasn't ideal as her father was always up to criminal activities and her mother worked a lot as well as (in some versions) used drugs. She later becomes the fifth Batgirl and then Robin before her death in the 2005 War Games comics, where she is killed when she seeks out a villain against Batman's orders. She then returns from the dead and goes back to being Spoiler. She also dated Tim and was a fairly long-running relationship before they broke up. She also had a teen pregnancy at one point (not by Tim) and had a daughter that she put up for adoption.

Robin #5 is Damian Wayne, the biological son of Bruce Wayne and Talia Al Ghul (daughter to Ra's Al Ghul, leader of a villainous organization known as the League of Assassins). Damian was raised in the League of Assassins for the first half of his childhood, where he was trained to be the heir to Ra's Al Ghul's empire. Talia brought him to Bruce when he was ~10 to refine his skills with Batman. However, that kind of goes awry when Bruce fakes his death and Damian is raised by Dick instead. Damian also becomes a Teen Titans leader as well as forms a friendship with Jon Kent, son of Superman (please read Super Sons, it's adorable). Damian is then killed by his oversized evil clone and is brought back to life on the planet Apokolips (no one stays dead istg).

Duke Thomas's relationship with the Robin mantle is a little more complicated. Duke first shows up as a really intelligent kid who solves one of the Riddler's puzzles. Later on, he becomes the leader (aided by Alfred Pennyworth) of a group of teenage vigilantes known as We Are Robin, who helped take care of Gotham crime while Batman was missing. His parents were, for a lack of a better term, disabled after one of the Joker's gas attacks (seriously, someone euthanize this clown). Bruce takes Duke under his wing and Duke rebrands himself as the Signal. He's unique from other Gotham heroes in a couple aspects: 1) he fights crime in the daytime instead of night and 2) he has photokinetic superpowers. (He's also dating one of the We Are Robins members, Izzy Ortiz.)

What about the others, like Batwoman and Batgirl?

Similar to Robin, Batgirl is a title held by multiple people. The first Batgirl was Bette Kane (who is now Flamebird), but the most well-known one was the second one, Barbara Gordon. Barbara (Babs for short) is the daughter of Gotham police commissioner Jim Gordon. Inspired by other Gotham heroes, she became Batgirl behind her parents' back and worked in tandem with Bruce and Dick, forming a relationship with Dick along the way. She became a quadriplegic after getting shot by the Joker but refused to step down from the field, instead using her intelligence and technological capabilities to surveil and provide intel under a new moniker, Oracle. She also has her own team, the Birds of Prey, which includes people like Huntress and Black Canary.

After Barbara, the next Batgirl is Cassandra Cain (who is also Bruce's only legal daughter in the main continuity). She is the daughter of David Cain and an assassin known as Lady Shiva. Cass was raised by David within the League of Assassins and trained to be a fighting machine, similar to Damian. She was raised in isolation without speech or literacy, but can read body language really well. Her first kill was when she was 8, and that traumatized her so much that she ran away, wandering around until eventually reaching Gotham and becoming both Bruce and Barbara's ward. She holds other titles like Black Bat along the way but is most known as Orphan. She also befriends Stephanie, had a short relationship with Superboy (Conner Kent) and, like half the people here, dies and comes back. Depending on who you talk to, some people keep her lack of speech, some have her speaking, and some prefer an in-between.

Stephanie was Batgirl after Cass. See above.

Kate Kane is Batwoman and Bruce Wayne's cousin. She grew up similarly wealthy in a high-level military family, often moving around as a child. Her twin sister and mother were killed in a terrorist attack in Belgium, leaving her father to raise her. She got into West Point military academy but was expelled in her final year after coming out as lesbian under the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. After that, she spent a year on an island civilization before returning to Gotham. After Batman saved her from a mugging, Kate bought some equipment on the black market and trained herself to become Batwoman. Also, we as a fandom don't talk about her flamethrower gloves enough.

NOTE: in an alternate timeline, Carrie Kelley was also Batgirl and Batwoman.

Harper Row is Bluebird, and similar to Batwoman, she is a mostly independent Gotham hero who was inspired by Batman. Growing up, Harper often had to take care of things like household repairs and look after her younger brother, Cullen, because their father was abusive and didn't do anything for them. Eventually, she sought emancipation and got them out of there, but things still weren't easy. She went to college, but had to drop out and get a job in order to provide for her and her brother. She became Bluebird after Batman saved her and Cullen, engineering her own weapons like a giant taser. Fun fact: she's bi and her brother is gay.

This is still really confusing. Who's who right now?

Canon sucks so here's what the fandom largely know them as:

Bruce is Batman. He might have some suit modifications or occasionally pilot a giant bat robot, but he's Batman

Dick is Nightwing. He took over as Batman for a short period of time, but after Bruce returned, he went back to being Nightwing we don't talk about Ric

Jason is Red Hood. That was actually the Joker's previous title but now Jason holds it

Tim is... usually Robin or Red Robin, it kinda depends on context. Canonically he's back to being Robin now, but a lot of us still refer to him as Red Robin

Damian is Robin. He had the alias Redbird at one point but everyone calls him Robin

Duke is the Signal. Again, there were some alias changes (like Lark) but he's the Signal around here

Stephanie is Spoiler, but again, it depends on context

Cassandra is usually referred to as Orphan, but you'll occasionally see Batgirl or Black Bat depending on who you talk to

Barbara was rehashed as Batgirl in recent canon but we all hate the disability erasure so you'll see a lot of us still call her Oracle

Harper is Bluebird. I don't recall her having any other titles. Her brother isn't a vigilante

Selina (yes, she's part of the batfamily) is Catwoman

Alfred is... Alfred. On the field he goes by Agent A and his previous spy career often comes in handy

This isn't the sum of it. There are a whole bunch of other bat characters (Bette Kane, Luke Fox, Jean-Paul Valley, Helena Bertinelli, Terry McGinnis, etc.) that I didn't get into here partly because I don't focus on them as much and partly because of space. I also didn't get into all the lore for characters I did explain, like Dick's police career or other teams/relationships. There are also some inconsistencies between different timelines and reboots.

I encourage you to explore beyond what I presented with other heroes and villains since I know Batman isn't for everyone. I also encourage you to explore the comics, talk to people, and figure out for yourself what characters or storylines best fit you. Don't be afraid to take your time, either. We've been here nearly a century. We're not going anywhere.

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fantastic-nonsense · 5 months

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I desperately want to know what the extent of the editorial mandate re: Babsgirl is, because the spectrum of Tom Taylor only depicting Babs as a perfectly abled Batgirl to Ram V only using her as Oracle is too much variation for me to place all blame for writers' creative choices on editorial

Like...Kelly Thompson is on Twitter insinuating that editorial is to blame for why Babs is going to be Batgirl and not Oracle in her Birds of Prey run, but there's clearly some level of writer capacity within the mandates for Babs to be depicted as visibly disabled or only used as Oracle, from her being an ambulatory wheelchair user who occasionally uses a cane in Batgirls:

pages from Batgirls (2021), by Becky Cloonan and Michael Conrad

To other writers seemingly being perfectly capable of only utilizing her as Oracle for entire arcs at a time:

pages from Mariko Tamaki's 2021 Detective Comics run and Ram V's 2023 Detective Comics run

And I want to know what the mandates actually are so I can figure out how much responsibility any given writer vs. editorial bears for the ongoing ableism and sexism whenever Babs pops up in a comic

Because I can certainly believe there's some sort of editorial mandate on the wheelchair or referencing her spinal chip being faulty, but I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe we're back in the Burnside-era anti-Oracle mandates given there are multiple writers only utilizing Babs as Oracle right now

#it's just infuriating to see 'editorial' being trotted out as an excuse when there's clearly a capacity to show her as disabled and Oracle #I just don't think there's a DESIRE to #barbara gordon #dc comics #batgirl #oracle #birds of prey #detective comics #barbara gordon meta

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armed-with-a-waffle-iron · 8 months

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Stephanie Brown ACTUALLY having the character arc that fanon pretends Jason Todd had (plus a defence of canon Jason)

What I'm really saying is that Stephanie Brown is underappreciated, Jason Todd is often misinterpreted, and, though it should go without saying, ignoring canon is poor media literacy. So let's actually analyse canon and get to the bottom of what the stories are trying to say and how they use their characters to tell this, as opposed to just which character should we stan.

I'm arguing that Stephanie Brown's story actually features a redemption arc that sees her transform from a violent, almost murderous teenager into the most unwaveringly hopeful of heroes and that Jason's story is about a villain who we're meant to empathise with to expose the cracks in the Batman's heroic facade; a Frankenstein's monster if you will. Here's a numbered list:

Part 1: Outgrowing Violence, Anger and Murder

A big part of Stephanie Brown's growth in canon is her learning not to kill or use excessive force. But it's not as simple as just killing is wrong, don't question it.

Let's begin with the narrative's relationship to violence, anger and murder. Why doesn't Batman kill? Because "[those] who [fight] with monsters might take care lest [they] thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you". If he kills, he's playing god, choosing who gets to live and die. No one deserves that kind of absolute power and absolute power also corrupts. Batman doesn't want to lose sight of himself or his cause. Deliberate murder is treated VERY negatively in the Batman mythos.

Enter Stephanie Brown.

Stephanie was a working class latchkey kid who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. She had an abusive, criminal father, who was in and out of jail, and a mother struggling with addiction, who Steph became a carer for at just 15. Steph also became pregnant with the child of her horrible ex. At 16, she gave birth to that child and had to give her up for adoption. Steph is also a survivor.

The world was never kind to Steph and left this teenager with a hell of a lot of bitterness and rage which her vigilante career became an outlet for. You can tell by the way she fights since Steph fights DIRTY; she'll tug hair and spit in your eyes and strike below the belt and catch a kick to twist your ankle and dislodge your already broken nose. On the one hand; the narrative tells us Steph is resourceful. She's 5'5", 130 lb and has zero powers, but can always find an opening even when going up against Gotham's grizzliest. It's telling that quick thinking, savviness and spontaneity become her thing when she becomes Batgirl; Steph is the wild card. On the other hand, she was a real diamond in the rough and a complete loose canon. In her first arc, it's Batman who stops her from making the biggest mistake of her life; killing her dad. To deliberately kill; to play god, is to lose yourself, remember. Her first arc is about not being defined by who your parents are and about not giving up on yourself. Batman basically tells her, there's hope for you yet Stephanie Brown, by getting her to spare her dad. And she does. And so began her superhero career.

Nonetheless, it's never that simple. Steph is still a bitter, angry teenager, no matter how many jokes she cracks. It becomes a personal crusade when she, now Robin, discovers that The Penguin is using children as runners. It takes Cassandra Cain to stop her from inflicting anything she may regret.

The narrative wants to show us how cruel the world can be and that it isn't black and white, either. The story ends with an angry Stephanie lamenting "why". It's a "why" she is asking herself too. Why does she do what she does? And it informs us that she, and maybe us the reader too, still have a lot to learn. Murder's not the answer but what is?

Stephanie later saves Bruce by almost murdering serial killer Victor Zsasz. Bruce reprimands her and she cries, quite honestly, "I don't get it, I really don't", following on from where we left off in Batgirl. "There are always other options than to kill" asserts Bruce, forget not being on the same page, they're reading different books. The thesis of the story is what Bruce should have told Steph when she was an angry 15 year old about to murder her dad; "[those] who [fight] with monsters might take care lest [they] thereby become a monster". The world's cruel, Steph, but that doesn't mean you have to be too. "Are you firing me?" "No, I'm teaching you".

Over 2 years down the line, an around 19 year old Stephanie, establishing herself as the new, hoping-inspiring Batgirl, is now teaching a brash Damian Wayne what she's learned.

"To murder or not to murder" is just a plot device to the themes of overcoming your own anger at the world's cruelty to contribute good, coming to terms with shades of grey, not giving up on yourself and staying hopeful in the face of adversity and horror. These are Stephanie's arcs and as a consequence, she goes from would-be-murderer to Gotham's cheeriest caped crusader.

Part 2: Double Standards and Second Chances

Another huge part of Stephanie's story is her overcoming double standards and doubters, to earn her own second chances. Her resurrection and rise to the role of Batgirl were choices made to hammer home this theme; it's never too late to turn things around.

There's some juicy metatext to analyse here too. DC editorial's treatment of Stephanie during War Games was horrific and panned by both fans and writers. To reperate for these harms, Steph was retconned back to life and then made Batgirl during Batman: Reborn. Here's a quote by Batgirl (2009) author Bryan Q. Miller on what his run aimed to bring out of Steph:

The whole point of Stephanie's resurrection and take over of the Batgirl title was to give her a redemption arc.

In text, Stephanie was unfairly treated too, notwithstanding that she was brash and had a massive violent streak in her Spoiler and Robin days. Tim Drake constantly condescends her and tells her to give up vigilante life, even though she was ALWAYS a match for Tim according to Convergence: Batgirl. Cassandra Cain constantly underestimates Steph. Bruce Wayne tells his allies to cut off ties with Steph and then later fires her as Robin for DISOBEYING HIM as if that's not the first thing Dick Grayson ever did as Robin. Barbara Gordon tells Steph she has a death wish. Dick deems Steph too reckless (moments before he resurrects a zombie Batman). And Damian is an entitled brat who gives her a hard time for no reason. Everyone doubts Stephanie and it generally says more about the doubter than it does Stephanie.

Stephanie was never great with authority or criticism so she still went out there and earned her second chance. And it felt rewarding when her doubters came around too.

Stephanie was brought back from the dead to be redeemed and man did she take that chance!

Part 3: What is Jason Todd's Story Meant to Tell Us and My Defence of Canon Jason

Jason Todd returns from the dead as a ghost of Batman's past; he is the living embodiment of Batman's greatest mistake who couldn't stay buried and is back to haunt him. He's a character we are meant to empathise with but he's a villain nonetheless. He's not irredeemable but for the most part his story is not really about redemption. Succinctly, it revolves around the idea that "we are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell” to quote Oscar Wilde.

When we first meet the resurrected Jason, he's a cold-blooded murderer who's slinging guns and using The Joker's old moniker. These choices are made to emphasise that he went down the wrong path; he's breaking Batman's "don't play god" rule and his actions become eerily closer to those of the Clown Prince of Crime than Batman's. In fact Nightwing and Batman spend some quality time together in the next two issues because Nightwing is the foil to the Red Hood; he's what Bruce considers his greatest success. Remember that thing about "those who [fight] with monsters might take care lest [they] thereby become a monster"? Well Jason DID become a monster. And if he's the monster, then Bruce Wayne is Frankenstein.

We're not supposed to think "yes, kill the The Joker, Jason", we're supposed to think "good god, please Jason, it's not too late to turn your life around". Here's Dick and Jason being the exact opposite of each other, an issue apart.

So what was Jason's villainous return trying to say? For one, that people are the products of their circumstance, lest we forget Jason was once an eager and studious Robin who just wanted to be part of something greater when life, but specifically Bruce, sent him awry. This is also a story about Bruce which tells us says that our mistakes have consequences that don't stay buried, and that we will always be forced to reckon with our histories or it becomes everyone's problem. This next panel shows this best. All of Jason's killing and torture and fear-spreading and chaos does not come down to some "murder or not to murder" debate, it comes down to his relationship with Bruce. He is the monster that Frankenstein created who's back to haunt him and no one is safe.

Jason's initial Red Hood arcs were never supposed to pose the question "should Batman kill The Joker or not?". The answer is no and always has been. They are supposed to show us how Bruce's poor fatherhood of and partnership with Jason Todd led to all this horror. And Bruce can't turn back the clock, he has to reckon with the consequences of his actions in the present or more people will get hurt. It's significant that these first arcs don't end with Jason returning to the manor and seeking help surrounded by family.

We then see Jason and his issues with Bruce threaten the lives of others like when he beat Tim half to death twice, tried to blow up Mia Dearden and then tried to become a murderous, gun-touting Batman after Bruce's "death".

Once Dick Grayson becomes Batman, the narrative sheds a bit more light on how Bruce's Frankenstein created a monster in Jason; Bruce wanted Jason to be another Dick Grayson.

The red hair is a perfect metaphor. Jason is naturally red-haired and he is now balding because Bruce made him dye his hair black so he'd look like Dick as Robin. That sums it up for me. Bruce really created his own demon here and Dick, as the new Batman, is trying to make amends with the sins of the Batman's past. Jason's a great choice for a Dick Grayson villain because of their histories, considering Dick Grayson is the legacy Batman.

"I tried really hard to be what batman wanted me to be...which is you." Jason tells Dick.

That line is so painful and way more recognisable and relatable than anything fanon has produced.

"But this world...this dirty, twisted, cruel and ugly dungheap had...other plans for me."

Look no further, this is who Jason Todd is.

That's a powerful story if you ask me, and this is why I like Jason Todd as a character; a villain I pity deeply, who is portrayed as a product of their circumstances without diminishing their agency and who makes me see the cracks in the hero's facade because they are the monster our "hero" created. He's also a very nuanced foil to the ever-shining light that is Dick Grayson. The appeal to Mary Shelley's Frankenstein isn't that the monster murdered people. I also would never swap canon Jason out for, I dunno, Wayne Family Adventures Jason who's the amalgamation of 3 or 4 common fanon tropes. This is my two cents.

#stephanie brown that ball of anger and vengeance that we saw grow into one of the most well-rounded capable and cheerful bats around #stephanie brown #vengeance is purple #fanon vs canon #jason tood #robin #batgirl #the spoiler #red hood #batman and robin #dc comics #comics #metas #batman #batfam #wayne family adventures #bruce wayne #dick grayson

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crim-bat · 2 years

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Hot take but Bruce shouldn't be able to beat his students as easily nearly as often as comics make him out to be able to do. Bruce had more training and he trained for longer but Bruce distilled that training into them in presumably the most characteristically efficient Batman style that he possibly could have been.

Dick has been at this only maybe two or three years less than Batman and Jason went out to get as much training as Bruce did and was able to out fox Bruce for about a month before he caught on. Cassandra is basically an instant win condition so we're not counting her. She's basically the throwing of exodia in this situation.

That's not to say he still shouldn't win in some scenarios. He obviously shouldn't want to fight his kids outside of training and he is still physically stronger than all them except maybe Jason and he still does have more experience.

This is all just to say that, especially with Dick and Jason and maybe tim, although DC has kind of started to make Tim a less capable fighter in the last decade, Bruce should not be able to beat them as handedly as he often does.

#batman meta #Jason todd #red hood #robin #dick grayson #nightwing #red robin #tim drake #Cassandra cain #batgirl #bruce wayne #batman #bat family #dc comics #detective comics #gotham

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spite-and-waffles · 2 years

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Controversial opinion #678:

The mantle of Batman should not be passed on but instead die with Bruce Wayne.

I mean, who should it go to? Nightwing is who Dick Grayson is, and a completely different brand from Batman. He has the kind of trust and respect as a leader within the superhero community that Batman just doesn't. He should lead the JLA one day as Nightwing. It's insulting to him to think that the Batman mantle is a promotion. Few other people can carry the name of Batman but no one else is worthy of Nightwing.

Jason? The day he wears the Bat's cowl is the day he loses everything that makes him Jason Todd, whether or not he gives up killing. He's supposed to be a renegade of the mission, a counterbalance in values and methods to the Bat, not become him.

Tim? It would consume him completely. Dick is at his best when he's surrounded by a diverse team of people, but Tim straight up needs it. Preferably outgoing, expressive, extroverted and sunny ones that are as unlike him as possible. Being Batman would make him lose himself inside his own head. The last thing this kid needs is more incentive to be manipulative and self-sacrificing.

Cass is honestly the best contender, not least because the cowl wouldn't weigh her down but emancipate and uplift her. The only reason I don't think she should be Batman is because I personally feel she supercedes Bruce in everything his emblem stands for. She should be The Bat - all the essence of guardianship and protection and terror of the night and none of the (let's face it - manpaining) martyrdom. As for the cerebral and leadership aspects of the Batman mantle, I think Cass would be a good leader when the situation calls for it, but I don't know whether she'd thrive in the role. She's a deeply intuitive and empathetic person; the emotional distance and hard choices for the greater good she'd have to make would eat at her more than it would the others. Doing anything "for the greater good" feels anathema to Cass's nature. Her profound and unfettered compassion is her strongest virtue.

Stephanie–what. No. Lmao. She's Hope at the bottom of Pandora's Box. Never that.

Becoming Batman would be the worst for Damian, because the true actualisation of his character is in freeing himself of his parental mold. He only wants to be Batman to prove himself good enough, to be accepted and chosen and trusted, his existence validated. But that's just chasing a mirage, because those insecurities exist chiefly within himself. If he was Batman they would just be exacerbated, condemned to operate forever in his father's shadow, always trying to live up to the legacy of his blood and a mission he never chose for himself.

I don't follow the reboot comics at all so I don't know much about Duke, but it seems the whole point of him is that he's the one who is expressly not supposed to be Batman. The only one of Gotham's heroes that lives in the light of day, never condemned to the shadows.

More than anything, though, the point of Batman's mission is for his role to become obsolete. If the world still needs a Batman by the time Bruce is forced to hang up his cape, then it means that he's failed.

#batman #batfamily #bat meta #bruce wayne #dick grayson #nightwing #jason todd #red hood #tim drake #red robin #cassandra cain #black bat #batgirl #stephanie brown #spoiler #damian wayne #robin #character study #spite waffle

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tarragonthedragon · 1 year

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i refuse to believe stephanie brown has a functioning secret identity. like sure the papers dont know or care who cluemaster is but you can't tell me batgirl never kicked one of penguin's hired muscle in the face and got a garbled "for fuck's sake stephanie" in return

#they don't hunt her down as stephanie because who doesnt respect a teenaged girl taking unprecedented steps to piss off her father #stephanie brown #batfam #batman #batgirl #dc #comics #meta #headcanon

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mysterycitrus · 5 months

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Thinking about Jim, do you think he also gets this good cop good father protection because of Barbara Gordon's admiration of him? Reading it from Barbara's perspective like all her stories have Jim Gordon as the best dad and her wanting to be a cop or as a child being the gcpd little cheerleader. Like trying to tie that with her role as Oracle but then even thinking of like The Hill where Jim shot and killed a teenager and his response to the mother was that the kid was armed like... it is hard to think that she would have that blind admiration of him. I also think she is more willing to work with morally questionable characters since she has a history of working with those types of characters. What do you think DC needs to do with Barbara Gordon to get actual interest in her again?

the solution for babs is simple — she needs to be oracle again.

no ifs whens or buts — babs being batgirl again is such a spectacular downgrade from her time as oracle it’s almost unreal. babs as a character, her growth after being shot, her rediscovery and pursuit of her own autonomy, her vindictiveness, her need for control, her relationships with the birds and wendy and cass and steph, make her an infinitely richer and more interesting character than when she wears the cowl. that’s even ignoring the ableist rhetoric behind her “reclaiming” her power by getting an implant and leaving her chair, which like, vom, because it’s a whole other can of worms.

unlike batwoman where there’s a completely different identity and mantle that’s seperate from bruce, batgirl is unequivocally the subordinate to batman. the girl denotes her lack of authority. cass and helena come the closest to shaking this off, but it’s still a very deliberate character dynamic that dc upholds. batgirl 2009 also successfully orients the mantle around babs and steph, but a large part of that is that bruce isn’t present in the story.

babs was at least two years older than dick in the original canon. she was a librarian who had a life outside of the community. she was a support for other disabled women. she’d tell bruce to shut the fuck up to his face. she was singularly the most important resource to the league and all other hero teams. she was a complicated person with a lot of trauma, not the cool girlfriend archetype. i also dislike that she’s dating dick while he’s nightwing and she’s still batgirl. imagine if they made dick robin again and had him date babs as oracle. it’d be so weird!

wrt jim gordon— a lot of babs’s unequivocal support of him comes from dc’s general inability to admit that he’s a deeply flawed human being in a position of power. the narrative rarely actually criticises him over his decisions. however, i also think people forget that like…. a lot of babs’s politics is tied up with the police. she’s essentially a one woman surveillance state, and she historically struggles with boundaries around the people she loves. she does work with people that the other bats wouldn’t — isley, waller, etc, but i don’t think that necessarily separates her from the police because often the police or armed forces do the same thing. her modus operandi is also very similar to bruce in a lot of ways too.

in saying that tho, i do appreciate that she’s willing to just say fuck it, full throttle and getting a god damned law degree to bust bruce out of a murder charge. she’s an icon. let her be cunty again!!

#im in my hating cops era (i never stop)#barbara gordon #batgirl #batfam #dc comics #jim Gordon #the ask and the answer #dc meta

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londonclubofsherwood · 4 months

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One thing I keep thinking about is because superhero comics are simultaneously niche and cultural icons, the general public understanding of characters can be starkly different to the actual medium. Often this is harmless fun but it can be a problem considering arcs about female and minority characters often suffer in the realm of reprints and adaptations, and therefore never have the same impact on the public consciousness. And I think this explains the erasure of Oracle.

Yes, Killing Joke was misogynistic as hell and as a massive Barbara fan I have serious issues with it. But then what Kim Yale and John Ostrander did with Oracle in year one was moving, beautiful and undeniably feminist. I'm not disabled but I got serious chills reading the story and it is honestly one of my favourite comics. From there she grew to become a staple in the DC universe and helped launch the wildly successful Birds of Prey superhero team.

And she was a disabled hero who was psychologically complex and kickass in a fight. She also was seen as an attractive woman who had love interests like Dick Grayson. She got to train the next generation of Batgirls. As Oracle Babs thrived.

Not to mention according to Scott Peterson's article on DC women kicking ass, the creative team at the time were seeing an overwhelming positive response to Oracle from people who saw themselves on the pages of a superhero comic for the first time thanks to Babs:

"we were the ones getting the mail from disabled fans. We were the ones reading letters about how much Oracle meant to them, how much it meant to see someone in a situation so much like their own, someone who by then had been come such an important part of the DCU, treated with respect and admiration by not only Superman and Black Canary, but by the Batman, a guy who treated pretty much no one with respect." (Scott Peterson, 2011)

But if you look at the mainstream perception, her success is less obvious.

Batgirl has always struggled in adaptations, and Oracle even more so. The versions of Oracle that have been translated onto film and TV haven't caught in public imagination in the same way, to the point she was straight up cut out of the recent Birds of Prey film.

Not to mention Killing Joke is one of the most iconic Batman stories of all time that not only has been reprinted countless times but was one of the select few comic arcs to be adapted into animation. Contrarily, Oracle Year One was reprinted in English once after the original date: the Batgirl 50 years celebration. This collection is expensive and not something you would buy without considerable investment in the Batgirls. It certainly isn't one that would show up if you google 'best batman comics'.

If you see this you understand why people marginally invested in DC mythos considered her return to batgirl was seen by some as a feminist move, rather than an ableist one. Gone were her years of development, one of the most powerful information brokers in DC, and two other beloved Batgirls. And the real insult: killing joke was still canon. Yes, they kept the misogynistic violence and ditched the disability rep and the character growth. And that is despite the fact Killing Joke was made to be part of an else world, not main continuity.

#dc musings #Barbara gordon #batgirl #oracle #dc #dc comics #batman #batfamily #ramblings/meta #hopefully this is something

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