#tim does think dick is the greatest thing ever! | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

silverwhittlingknife · 1 year

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Has Tim ever put Dick on a pedestal?

100% yes! This is basically Tim's backstory IMO. Prior to meeting Dick in Lonely Place of Dying, Tim's a kid who's got a distant, idealized, made-for-TV vision of Dick and Bruce - mostly Dick - and he sets out on a quest based entirely around that misperception.

Aaaand then he immediately crashes headfirst into reality, because the Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne he remembers from his childhood memories and daydreams are like this:

But it turns out that the actual real-life human people are a bit more, uh, cranky than Tim's glossy vision - things are tense and neither of them are super-happy to meet Tim:

And Tim has to rethink a bunch of his mistaken deductions as it slowly dawns on him that - far from being a plucky team - Dick and Bruce are actually not getting along at all:

And so Tim has to realize his whole plan of "Dick has to be Robin again!!! That will fix everything!!! :)))))" was actually wrong, and based on a misunderstanding of Bruce and Dick's relationship. And having realized he was wrong, he immediately sets about trying to figure out what he’s failed to understand in the most intrusive way possible—by asking lots of nosy questions!

Actually-meeting-Dick is basically the end of Tim’s super-idealized vision of Dick. It's not a vision that can survive contact with an actual human being who's snapping at you. And kid!Tim is (I love him but) extremely pushy and annoying, and Dick's a prickly young adult who is not above getting annoyed, which means Dick snaps at him pretty regularly.

But Tim does continue to admire him.

So for their various interactions after Lonely Place of Dying, IMO "does Tim have Dick on a pedestal" is kind of a judgment call based on your assessment of Dick's relative strengths/virtues. What's unambiguous: Tim has a consistently higher opinion of Dick than Dick does of Dick, and they argue about it a lot.

I had way too many thoughts about this, so below the cut:

Comics where Dick and Tim have conversations along the lines of Dick: "I suck and I'm failing at everything." Tim: "That's not true!! Actually you're great and you're succeeding at the thing you think you're failing at!!"

So who's right - Dick or Tim?

Dick and Tim's high opinions/expectations of each other: the plusses and minuses

Comic examples

Here are a couple different variations on Tim thinking that Dick is great (often when Dick's less sure):

in Showcase, Tim thinks that Dick’s a way better teammate than Azrael, even as Dick’s thinking himself as a failure who let the Titans down;

in Prodigal, Dick tells Tim a story about confronting Two-Face which to Dick symbolizes a moment of great failure and which Tim insists was a no-win situation where Dick did the best he could;

also in Prodigal, Dick’s despairing over how badly he thinks their encounter with Killer Croc went and meanwhile Tim thinks it went fine (after all, Dick listened to him and called an ambulance instead of beating up Croc!), and Tim tells Dick to lighten up and Dick talks about how he’s a failure;

in Nightwing 6, Dick thinks he’s doing badly in Blüdhaven and he’s self-conscious about it and paranoid about what Tim might tell Bruce, and Tim insists that the fact that Dick’s being targeted means he’s succeeding and getting close instead of failing, and Dick retorts that this won’t be comforting if he winds up dead because getting close just isn’t good enough;

also in Nightwing 6, Tim thinks Dick was a better Robin than Tim is, and Dick thinks he wasn’t that great and that Tim’s better;

post-Last Laugh, Tim’s insistent that Dick's being too hard on himself about attacking the Joker whereas Dick's really haunted by the experience and confides that it feels like he's discovered a terrible dark side of himself;

way later in Nightwing 110, Tim’s seeking Dick out and Dick’s trying to avoid him because he thinks he’s a bad person who’d be bad for Tim;

in BW: Murderer, Tim doesn’t trust Bruce absolutely, but in Red Robin, he does trust Dick absolutely (or at least, more than Tim trusts himself);

etc. etc. etc.

Who's right: Dick or Tim?

So, is Tim being too easy on Dick and looking at him with rose-colored glasses, and Dick’s harsher view of himself is the correct one; or is Dick a perfectionist who’s being too hard on himself, and Tim’s the one who’s actually seeing Dick’s strengths more clearly?

I don’t think the comics really commit one way or another! These are moments of multiple-perspectives, where we notice that Tim has one attitude and Dick has another attitude and that tells us things about the characters, not moments that are meant to resolve to a simplistic “one person is Right and one person is Wrong.” I think often you could argue that they're both right? So, like, if you wanted to take the approach of, "Tim's idolizing him but he's not actually as great as Tim thinks," I don't think the comics precisely contradict that interpretation.

... THAT SAID, look, I am a Dick Grayson fan at heart, and I tend to lean toward “Dick’s being too hard on himself.”

Tim’s not oblivious to Dick’s flaws—he immediately figures out, for example, that Dick’s gonna attack the Joker, and rushes off to stop him; he just isn’t as judgmental about this moment as Dick is, and he doesn’t think it makes Dick an awful person forever. The point is (Tim says later, practical-minded) that it was made right, and Dick shouldn’t beat himself up about it. In Prodigal, Tim’s not unaware that their fight with Croc went badly; he’s just focused on how Dick’s morals and teamwork-centric attitude feel right to him in a way that Azrael’s didn’t, and look, Tim didn’t get shot even though he got shot at, and isn’t that the important thing? Tim gets caught in the same ambush that Dick does in Nightwing 6; he just takes the glass-half-full attitude toward it while Dick takes the glass-half-empty attitude. And so on.

Tim admires Dick, looks up to him, trusts him, interprets his flaws generously, and doesn’t think he’s a failure. And... this isn't quite in the comics, but it doesn't contradict them: I like to imagine Dick feeling like he's on a pedestal, and feeling kinda uncomfortable with Tim's admiration when he's forced to realize it exists, and feeling like he doesn't deserve it, and sometimes subconsciously braced for the other shoe to drop, convinced that Tim can't possibly really think this forever, that he's deluded somehow, and that eventually Tim will realize who Dick really is and get disillusioned and leave.

And I tend to think of Dick having this problem a bit with everyone in his life who thinks highly of him, but especially with Tim, because he doesn't feel like Tim's ever needed him or that he's done anything worth Tim's admiration. I feel like Dick - despite some insecurities - does know his own worth as a team leader, and he knows he was a good partner to Bruce, and he understands when he's helping people who are clearly floundering, like Damian and Rose. But all he's ever done for Tim is...hang out, and be nice. And he doesn't think Tim ever needed fixing or saving, and he vastly underestimates both the value of his own friendship in general and how much it's meant to Tim in particular. Not all the time, because later in their relationship when they've known each other for years I do think Dick does feel a bit more secure in that friendship and entitled to make demands based on it (and vice versa, for Tim). But I do imagine Dick periodically feeling like Tim lets him off the hook too easily, and thinks more highly of him than he should, and alternating between being grateful for it and uncomfortable with it.

But I would argue that Dick does deserve Tim’s admiration!

Look, Dick's not a perfect person - no one is. He does screw up sometimes, and sometimes he's petty or jealous, and sometimes his temper gets the better of him. But he is pretty great! He's brave and thoughtful and kind and generous and caring. He takes his own grief and his own suffering and devotes himself to helping other people. And Tim sees that. Tim watches an orphaned kid crying on stage, and has nightmares about it - and later recognizes the hero in him. Tim stops Dick from beating the Joker to death, and he holds Dick back from strangling Hugo Strange, and he talks Dick down from two separate panic attacks, and he listens to Dick monologue about his various perceived failures, and he gets yelled at a lot when Dick's annoyed with him, and his takeaway from all of that is that he believes in Dick, and trusts Dick, and thinks he's a hero.

You could see that as Tim having him on a pedestal and refusing to acknowledge the ugly reality. But I tend to see it as Tim understanding that Dick's flaws and occasional missteps don't define who he is - the fact that Dick's human doesn't make him any less of a hero. Tim can see the hero that Dick can't always see in himself.

Dick and Tim have really high opinions of each other... for better or worse

Tim's not alone in having a high opinion of Dick - Dick thinks Tim's pretty great, too! Dick repeatedly compares himself to Tim and finds himself wanting, whether he's thinking that Tim's a better partner for Bruce, or having a fear toxin nightmare where Tim's a rival who's beating him out of a job, or deciding that Tim would never have let Blockbuster die (and that he'll be better off if Dick avoids him), or musing that Tim would be a better Batman. Dick calls Tim his equal and closest ally in Red Robin; Tim thinks Dick is "the best" in his origin story and basically never changes his mind.

I think nowadays we're sometimes pretty highly-attuned to the way that high expectations can be bad or oppressive, and... I have mixed feelings about this? On the one hand, it isn't untrue! Dick and Tim's mutual high opinions of each other, and correspondingly high expectations, are not an unmixed blessing! They 100% cause problems! Dick and Tim think highly of each other, and expect a lot from each other, and sometimes they're pushy or abrupt or demanding when they could stand to be more sensitive. And the iffy side of high expectations is something I find interesting, and I do think it's solidly canon-based - you see aspects of this in several of their comic conflicts - LPoD, Graduation Day, BftC, RR, etc.

But at the same time, it's complicated! I don't think you can fully untangle the higher expectations from "they rely on each other and have a lot of faith in each other." Love and trust are different things, and Dick and Tim care a whole lot about being trusted, not just about being loved.

I also think it's important that their belief in each other is often a gift rather than an inevitability: Dick and Tim choose to see each other in positive ways. Something they both do is after they have a conflict, they'll apply on a retrospective very positive gloss to whatever just happened. So e.g. Dick starts Resurrection mad at Tim, and ends it by declaring, "I let you make the choice... because I knew you'd make the right one." Tim spends most of Red Robin 1-12 mad at Dick, and ends it by declaring that he knew Dick would catch him because Dick's always there for him. And in both cases, we-the-readers are aware that they knew no such thing! But to me, that doesn't make these declarations meaningless - it makes them more meaningful. Their faith in each other is sometimes genuinely felt, and sometimes it's something they stubbornly brute-force into existence because they want to give that gift to each other.

And I mean... Tim did make the right choice. Dick was there when it really counted. Just because it isn't the whole truth doesn't mean it's not a truth.

Now, does this positivity also put some pressure on them? Absolutely! They're both people who are very upset by failure, so they tend to reassure each other by insisting that there was no failure, could never be failure, failure is impossible, even when they know perfectly well that's not true. They praise each other's skills as a love language, when what they mean is I love you no matter what. They talk about other people's needs but don't always acknowledge each other's. And it'd probably be healthier if they said instead, "Even if you'd made the wrong choice, it'd be okay, because it's okay to make the wrong choice sometimes," or "Even if you're not always there for me, that's okay, because no one can be there for someone else all the time."

And they do not say that, because Dick and Tim are relatively well-adjusted by Batfamily standards but that is a very low bar, and at the end of the day they're still deeply messed-up perfectionists who deal with their emotional problems by punching crime in the face.

But look, they're trying. And isn't that the important thing? <3

#dick 'imposter syndrome' grayson and tim 'dick grayson stan' drake #dick grayson #tim drake #dick & tim #ask tag #i rambled for a really long time anon <3 #it's complicated because i feel like mmmm the ''pedestal'' thing is obv true in some ways #but i think it also sometimes gets used in this kinda flanderized way #where it gets extrapolated into claims like ''older!tim is shocked to learn dick experiences normal human emotions' or w/e #and obv fandom is transformative and a rich tapestry etc but for me personally #part of what i LOVE about tim's introduction is that dick is in the middle of one of his very angsty eras #so tim's burst into his life being all ''hiiiiii!!! you're the best :)))))'' when dick is at peak ''i am gloomy and depressed''#that said tim's high opinion of dick is very canon and very compelling to me <3 #tim does think dick is the greatest thing ever!#but it's more like being a stan of his rather than being a distant stranger who doesn't know him at all #it's not that tim's unaware that dick gets angry/sad/etc or that dick and tim never have fights (they do!)#it's more that unless they're actively in the middle of a fight tim admires/loves dick a lot and is determined to think well of him #so he considers all of dick's strengths What's Important About Him and all of his flaws Basically A Rounding Error If You Think About It #and he doubles-down on this when someone's questioning it (including Dick)#there is definite motivated reasoning at play in Tim's view of Dick but imo it's not quite the same as a pedestal sdfdsfds #i'm not sure there's anything that Dick could do that Tim couldn't find a way to justify in his head how it was okay /#not really Dick / not really his fault / etc. - like if Dick went on a murder spree #Tim would be there making the big This Isn't You! I Know You Won't Kill Me Because I Believe In You! speech #and like. if he was wrong then he'd be dead sdfdsf but the thing is he'd have secret doubts and be wary AND STILL #find himself ultimately making that speech / taking the risk - and ditto for Dick toward Tim #it's not that they never get mad / distrust each other and it's not impossible they'd stay bitter and suspicious for a while #but in the END they both really really WANT to trust each other

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confused-wanderer · 1 year

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I know we all talk about Jason finding out Dick killed the Joker from Tim or one of the other batfam members, but what if:

One day he’s searching for blackmail material on a member just for fun and knows Damian keeps a list of all of them so he backs into the files and realised the folder with the heaviest inscription to unlock is one labelled “Contingencies”.

He opens it to find every single person in their family is on there and starts surfing through them. When he sees Tim’s he freezes, mentally filing away some horrific details for checking up on him later, Jason’s list is impressive but not much he didn’t expect…still concerned how he got the evidence though.

His fingers hesitate over Batman’s, and after thinking screw it what the hell clicks on it just to realise most of them are psychological, and had to do with Jason. One video showed Bruce as Jason remembered him from his robin days. He was pacing furiously in the Manor, tugging on his pocket square which for him was a high level of distress, before he went upstairs - to Jason’s room when he stayed there - and looked in. The change was sudden, Bruce’s shoulders sagged and his face grew into one of fondness, one he’d rarely seen before.

“I cant help it Alfred.. Scarecrow’s toxin.. I KNOW it isn’t real but.. I can’t stop thinking about it. What if -“ and Jason can’t really believe his ears, that was a fucking quiver in his voice- “What if one day it comes true?” “What was your worst fear Master Bruce?”.

“Jason..” and Jason flinches. “I.. I saw him die, and I was powerless. I cant lose him Alfred. I just cant.”

The recording ends, and it takes a while for Jason to realise he can’t breathe. He sends the file to himself and laughs bitterly, remembering what the fear toxin had shown him. Lucifer. It had shown him falling from Bruce’s grace, being his greatest disappointment. “Guess we both failed each other didnt we old man?”

After what feels like forever, when he can feel his fingers stop shaking his eyes drift over to Dicks.

Damian sure does adore him, wonder what the brats got in store for him.

Most of them were things he was sure Dick could handle, until a glitched file appeared which read “for EXTREME situations only.”

When he heard Joker laugh, Jason could’ve sworn he was in the cave. “Hello there old friend! Aww why the long face?”

Dick wasn’t facing the camera, but the sheer aura of destruction radiating off of him was enough for Jason to know Joker was in danger. Judging by his outfit and well- hair- this must’ve been years ago.

“Didn’t you like my..ah.. gift? It was quite the blast I hear!”

Dicks fists clenched. His usual smile was gone, replaced by a hatred so vile it could’ve rivalled batman’s glare. It was so odd.. seeing him so pissed.

“Well that’s what happens.. when birds get hit. They never see what’s right in front of them and then BAM!”

As his laughter rang out Jason heard Dick whisper something. It was so soft, quieter than he’d ever heard him and he found himself leaning forward.

“What’s that? How long he lasted? Well I counted everytime he screamed when I broke his bones so-“

“SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP!”

Jason stumbled back, nearly falling to the floor himself. Dicks voice was thundering, echoing across the cave.

What the hell had happened? Why was Dick so mad? Why wasn’t he smiling?

“You..killed him.”

And that’s when it hit Jason. Oh. This was after he’d died.

The joker was trying to say something, but Jason couldn’t hear him. All he could focus on was how Dick was behaving, how he was walking upto Joker. Jason had seen that before.

The intent to kill.

SLAM

The fight was brutal, and blood flew everywhere, mixed with the laughter and cries of the Joker while Dick yelled, YELLED so loudly he could’ve sworn the cave was shaking before the sound of a wet snap ricocheted and Dick went limp.

No.. no no no no.

He watched in horror as Dick stood up, drenched in blood and heaving. Dick had gone- no BEATEN- the joker for Jason.

But the longer he looked, the more he felt the Lazarus pit burning inside him.

The joker wasn’t moving.

Dick walked away, and in the shadows, with bloody fists and face of hatred could not see him as the Dick he knew.

“Dead.”

He looked up to hear Dick whisper to the thundering sky outside.

“I killed him Jason. The joker is dead. Rest in peace little wing.”

Jason’s feet gave out under him, and he crashed to the ground gasping for breath.

Never in his wildest dreams had he thought he had been avenged.

Never did he even think that Dick had only killed once… and only for him.

Part two of related series where Jason finds out Bruce nearly killed the Joker:

#headcanons #batfam #dick grayson angst #dick grayson #jason todd #jason todd robin #jason todd angst #tim drake #red robin #batfamily headcanons #batman #batman angst #alfred penyworth #damian wayne #batman and robin

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flamingpudding · 7 months

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Fictober23 Prompt: 4 - "Do you even know what this means?"

Fandom: DPxDC

Rating: G

Warnings: -

Tim stared at his family with pure exhaustion before letting out a sigh while covering his face with his hands because of the worried looks they were sending him after his long rant.

It had all started with a stupid school project. It was just supposed to be a stupidly simple school project. Did he think of the whole thing as the greatest nonsense project his school has ever come up with? Yes. Did he still do it? Yes. He needed the extra credits, because of some stupid meetings he had missed other projects which was the entire reason he took part in this one.

Maybe he should have tried buying his grade out of it like all the other snobbish rich kids but then he would feel guilty and the moment Alfred found out, he would have to life with the disappointed™ look. Something he really didn't want to deal with. So instead he took part in this stupid ancestry project his school had organized.

But when he had allowed the school to send in his DNA he certainly did not expect the result he got back. Because when he opened the email, he noted that it was addressed to someone named Danny Fenton not Tim Drake, he didn't even read the rest really. That should have been his first warning.

His second warning was when he had hacked into the that DNA testing facility to actually get his results back and then found a note on his data file about a near 100% DNA match to one Danny Fenton which caused them to assumed that Tim was Danny and just had sent in his DNA a second time after, he peaked through his finger onto the screen, 5 years. That should have been his second warning.

But no, Tim had actively ignored all the warnings and decided to dig into who this Danny Fenton was. Because there were so many possibilities of how they could match but only so little to explain the time difference between them sending in the DNA samples. For dear good Tim hoped to all things that there wasn't someone else to have attempted to clone him before Ra, no worse even, he hoped HE wasn't the clone in this situation.

Really he didn't want to add existential crisis to all the problems and cases he already had to deal with.

So what does one do best when they learn there was someone with nearly the same DNA you have? He looked that someone up. So that was what Tim did next. He had spent nights looking up anything he could find, summarizing all the information he found, branching off when he found other concerning stuff and then stewed in some frustration of the incompetence of some people when discovering other facts.

In the end Tim compiled all the data he had found into a 30 slides long power point. That he had presented to his family and was awaiting their reaction. Bruce had grunted earlier and the demon brat had huffed out something in between slight 25 and 26 earlier. Jason had muttered something right at the beginning and Dick had stayed quiet the entire time, so did Cass. Steph hadn't said a thing either and Duke looked just puzzled.

"Do you even know what that means?" Demon brat finally broke the silence, causing Tim's eye to twitch before aggressively pointing to his last slide still on the presenter.

"Yes, I do know what this means. I have listed all possibilities right here if you haven't noticed. And i explained possibility three, four and six on slide-"

"Replacement. I don't think that's what the brat means." Jason cut in and Tim glared at him.

"Timmy, when was the last time you slept?" Dick carefully asked and Tim directed his glare at him.

"I believe Master Timothy hasn't slept for about 72 hours now." Alfred added in with that disapproving stare of him and time looked away stubbornly. How was the amount of sleep he got relevant right now? There was a possibility of him being a clone or someone having cloned maybe even years before he started to follow B around as a kid with a camera.

Bruce let out a sigh and Steph appeared to try to hide a chuckle leaning on Cass shoulder. "He must be lacking sleep if he doesn't see the most obvious possibility considering the time line he presented on slide 18."

"Oh so, I am not the only one thinking he is missing another obvious possibility?" Duke asked and once more Tims eye twitched. Getting fed up with his family, Tim huffed and crossed his arms, glaring at them all.

"And what is it that I am obviously missing?"

"The screenshot of the mail you put in slide 3 stated that it's not a 100% match but 89%. In addition it stated in the last line a suspected possibility of a familiar relation. I am disappointed, Drake. That you would miss something this obvious."

"What?" Tim whirled around going to the slide to reread the mail.

"Considering that I am pretty sure, we don't have any sort of cloning case here Tim." Dick started his voice now slightly laced with Humor and Tim narrowed his eyes at his older brother over his shoulder. "You just discovered that you had a twin, that we probably still go to rescue."

Tim's mouth opened and closed like a fish out of water. He did not know what to say and before he could even catch up with what his brothers had said Alfred was already behind him pushing him towards the elevator.

"It is time for you to get some sleep Master Timothy. I am sure Master Bruce and the others will be perfectly able to handle the rest of the situation with the information you compiled. You can join them after you have rested."

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scintillyyy · 3 months

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also we all know that dick would never, ever send tim to arkham, but in the universe that doesn't exist where he does, lbr. tim just thrives there. probably just starts a w&w group with the meanest, baddest person there who inexplicably thinks that tim is the greatest thing since sliced bread. tim doesn't actually, you know, do anything there that might actually be considered working on any of his own issues, but he does somehow help one person's alcoholism, save another one's life from a gang who wants to kill him, has a heart to heart with someone struggling with depression, & ousts at least two corrupt guards and a corrupt therapist so it's a net postive yea

#not!dick: are you done being crazy yet tim >:(#tim: not at all don't let me out yet i still have work to do here

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celaenaeiln · 8 months

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Just how true do you think the sentiment of “bruce was still a child who didnt get to grow up/move on until he met dick”?

Very true! Actually-Alfred straight up says it-true!

This scene is when Dick was accepted by Batman to become robin.

I was actually going to use this for another Dick and Alfred post but let me just drop it here that Dick cares about Alfred so much!!

Like this boy is the sweetest, most caring person ever. He asks the butler if it's okay for him to become robin-who does that?! Who would think of doing that?! He's the most considerate, softest baby ever! The tiny, nervous, shy smile on his face in the second panel <33333

Here's the answer: "And while he most certainly became a man...I don't think he ever became an adult."

But Alfred says it twice!

"But Alfred always used to say Bruce would have self-destructed if he hadn't met me and learned some responsibility."

My other post about Bruce and Dick has a lot of images that talk about this idea too

That's why I love Bruce and Dick's relationship so much. They are so codependent on each other. While Bruce saved Dick (not from being angry. He wasn't an angry robin, istg.), Bruce also would have died without Dick.

Before Bruce met Dick, he was on a one way track to his own ending. He was reckless, didn't take precautions, and was on the verge of being consumed by the darkness of which he was fighting.

At this time, a boy came along that shined light down upon him (literally because of the circus stage lights lol) and he was taken by him instantly.

With a new partner-a child-by his side Bruce was forced to take precautions, learn how to operate as a human being, and was just happy to have someone who bright and cheerful. He used Dick as an emotional crutch from losing his mind.

"Still, the addition of Dick Grayson into the Master's crusade has made a difference in him."

"I do believe I saw him smile. There have even been occasions in the pantry when I could just discern the muffled sounds of laughter echoing up from the dreadful cavern beneath the manor."

There are so many occasions where Alfred talks about how extraordinarily important Dick is to Bruce.

Dick raised Bruce.

To borrow a lyric line that explains this:

"Take a broken man right in my hands And then put back all his parts"

Dick's "i can fix him" issues which are a massive part of his relationship with Deathstroke come from acting as a child parent to Bruce.

But the greatest part?

He still is.

Again and again and again. Dick is the only person Bruce relies on. He never tells anyone his secrets or worries unless that person is Dick. And often he bears the brunt of the work by his family. Both Tim and Jason have gotten angry at him for taking Bruce's side or supporting Bruce but the thing is, he's the only one who can next to Alfred. Tim has accused and praised him of being too much like Batman sometimes but when you raise a kid (adult-sized) I think you're bound to forgive them while also admonishing them for their mistakes.

They also use Dick as the unofficial spokesperson to talk to Bruce

"Hey. Tim told me about Zur. Are you alright?"

Side note: Tim tried talking to Bruce earlier but Bruce kept ignoring his concerns.

For each robin, Dick acts as the emotional go between Bruce and them.

Jason:

Jason's sad face :'(

That moment meant so much to him

Tim:

Another reason why Dick and Tim are so close is because Dick acted like the parent during Tim's robin era. It wasn't until recent comics that they had Bruce actually even caring about Tim.

Damian:

Also Dick and Damian father and son moment <33

Dick the fixer upper. Always fixing everyone's family issues. With each other or with Bruce.

Also the scene of Martha Wayne thanking Dick

There's a comic panel where Bruce says "Dick is the glue that holds the family together."

Dick is literally the light of his life. Without him Bruce would've lost it. It was the perfect combination of Dick's cheerful personality, strong ethics, and tragic backstory that caused Bruce to take him in and it was these same traits that helped him grow. Because Dick's distinguishable trait is that he humanizes people. And Dick humanized and raised Bruce.

#dick grayson #nightwing #bruce wayne #batman #tim drake #red robin #jason todd #red hood #damian wayne #robin #comic panels #batfamily #robin dick grayson #robin jason todd #robin tim drake #alfred pennyworth

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vinelark · 10 months

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ALL timkon recs I BEG

hello hi! here are some of my favs! it got long so putting some under the cut

💄 Lipstick on the glass by @cairoscene read for timkon being soft and goofy and disgustingly in love, set in vague future college-y years with amazing core four dynamics too. cair is one of the funniest people to ever exist and we are so blessed that they decided to write some timkon. (also read for my own greatest contribution to literature, the fictional “jerry the void nexus” meme)

🎢 been a number and a name by @wynterstars i had SO MUCH FUN reading this one, a 90s comics-divergent AU where robin and superboy become friends—and crushes—when superboy is pretty new on the scene. feat. lex luthor being terrible, tim staging a rescue operation that at one point involves platform shoes and a blonde wig, spice girls references, and fantastic action sequences. it’s also a series, with an installment focusing on kon & clark, and a currently updating longfic sequel with SO MANY timkon identity shenanigans (my beloved) and kon feelings (also my beloved).

📸 the surveillance series by @smilebackwards i feel like i rec this all the time but it’s because it’s THAT GOOD. a tim-centric AU where tim joins the family late, but is still involved in bat business without the bats realizing. there’s some fun timkon identity shenanigans at the top, and some of my all-time favorite tim characterization (ruthless! lonely! brilliant!) plus a great tim & bruce arc, too.

🦉 Detours by miyaji_08 this is part 2 of a series and i def recommend reading the whole thing! a reverse robins + joker jr au that has lots of trauma and lots of healing, and in part 2 there’s timkon identity shenanigans that’s simultaneously enemies to lovers + And They Were Roommates. tim sure does run a gauntlet of horrors in this series, but it has so much healing and also one of my fav reverse robins concepts i’ve read so far.

📱 unfurl by @burins tim and kon might be dating, and there’s no kryptonian sex ed handy. bruce, being bruce, makes it his business, which means talking to clark and Realizing some things about his own feelings. superbat are billed first here, but i think timkon steal the show—i laughed out loud like five different times reading this. hilarious and sweet on all sides. (and if you like this, check out their timkon road trip fic!)

🌾 A Saturday Evening by malcyon in which tim visits the kent farm for family dinner with kon, feat. very sweet established relationship timkon and fun superfamily dynamics, and it touches on tim’s past grief over kon’s death (and complicated feelings post-undeath).

🤼‍♂️ Sore Loser by @hearteyeshayley kon learns that tim always let him win while sparring, and has to process that. this was such a fun exploration of tim’s prowess as a fighter—one who regularly has to go up against superpowered friends and foes alike—and also tim as a person who is always doing mental calculations about the people around him (in an endearing way). kon, too, got his time to shine and grow, and the ending was so smart and sweet.

🔮 Ascension by Violet_Witch an AU longfic where tim is a witchling and kon is a fallen angel who has (oops) just lost his wings. tim sets out to help get kon’s wings back, and there’s a ticking clock because angel wings are dangerous in the wrong hands—and tim has a big, horrible secret that’s about to come due. the plot/worldbuilding of this was WILDLY cool, and there was a big ol misunderstanding in the middle that had me clawing my face off (in a good way).

🌌 straight on ’til morning by merils kon vs. the terrifying ordeal of growing up, feat. sweet friends-to-lovers timkon and really thoughtful exploration of some of kon’s canon past relationships and their abusive dynamics. i haven’t finished this one yet but it’s been rec’d multiple times and i’m excited to dive back in (and it's recently complete!)—and what i have read so far gave me an amazing sequence of kon and dick interacting and dick’s big brother mode activating in an instant, which is something i now desperately need more of.

📧 aaaand would it even be a reclist by me if i didn’t include send to all by @cairoscene the absolute moment i find myself feeling down i go reread this and boom. i am instantly laughing again. timkon are just one part of a bat grab-bag here but they are so so funny and cute and in-character. maybe one day i’ll compile the timkon-centric sequel that exists in my head but for now i’ll just go reread this for the zillionth time.

okay yeah!! i’m probably missing so many good fics here because i constantly have like a zillion tabs open that i plan to read someday. also i reserve the right to reblog later like OH I FORGOT— but in the meanwhile, happy timkon reading!

#timkon #fic rec #asks

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the-booty-crusader · 10 months

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I want a fic where Damian is in the middle of his “cringy first OCs” phase.

He works day and night on his character who he thinks is the coolest thing ever.

His character’s name is Xendar, the Assassin Prince, Godslayer. He is stronger than Superman and Wonder Woman… combined! He could beat them with one hand… which he’ll have to because his other hand is A SWORD!

His mother is the daughter of the greatest villain in the world… but his father was a hero unlike any other!

And of course, Xendar has heterochromia and the coolest battle scars. Also, six wings and horns and a halo.

He tells his siblings about this.

Dick is confused. He doesn’t really get online culture, and especially not the online art culture. Why does he have six wings? That seems impractical. And shouldn’t he get a proper prosthetic instead of a sword arm? Aren’t horns supposed to be the broken remains of a halo? How does he have both???

Damian stops telling Dick about his characters.

Jason is delighted. The Red Hood, being the literary buff he is, immediately recognizes the self-insert. He can tell that there’s a lot of “early writer flaws” in the story but he gladly helps his little brother, this ending up being their first real bonding experience. He helps Damian with the worldbuilding, interpersonal relationships of Xendar and the flow of the story.

Damian appreciates this.

Tim’s eyes glaze over the moment Damian shows him the drawing. While Damian explains how Xendar, the Assassin Prince and Godslayer is next in line to the throne of the Demon King… Tim is getting lost in his memories of his Ao3 days. He suddenly realizes he never deleted his self-insert Batman & Robin fics. He realizes probably at least one of his family members knows— Bruce or Babs. His face slowly becomes redder as Damian talks about his masterpiece.

“That’s… really cool Dami. Uhm. I need to go.” Tim responds before scurrying off to go delete his Ao3 and Fanfiction accounts. Should he delete Tumblr just to be safe?

Damian scoffs. He wouldn’t expect Drake to understand anyways.

Tim understands better than any of his older brothers.

Now includes art of Xendar!

#batfamily #batfam #dick grayson #timothy drake #tim drake #jason todd #damian al ghul #damian wayne #robin #red robin #red hood #nightwing #batman #writing prompt #dc

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honey-tragedy · 10 months

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a least to most likely list of which of the robins would hide injuries

dick, is surprisingly the least likely to hide injuries. he got told sence he was able to walk and do stunts that improperly cared for injuries could not only harm him but other performers and thats stuck with him. add in being the leader of the teen titans and trying to set a good example for them, hes fully open with his injuries when hes hurt.

--dick has a spread sheet of injury and when he got them, he thinks it funny

tim is the second least likely to hide injuries, now this is only because in the first year or two of being robin haveing a infection or improperly cared for wound would take him out of the field and away from doing damage control with bruce. and now its just a habit too keep track of his injuries

---tim would hid older injuries that wouldn't effects his field capabilities (spleen spleen spleen) but not anything recent or pressing

up next is duke! duke as the leader of the we are robins thing has had to deal with idiots under his command hideing injuries and he refuses to add that stress onto bruce and alfred. he knows how annoying and worrying it is to have to wonder if your people are actually field ready or lieing too you.

--he would only hid injuries if they came from civilian life or for a stupid thing like triping off a roof or swinging into a wall, but like tim he wouldnt if it was something big or would affect his capabilities

steph is next up, were edgeing into would definitely hide shit, steph does not see bruce as a parent and barely sees him as a boss. shes a latch key kid with a terrible dad and a try her best but not get mom, no way in hell would she come out with injuries outload but she would let alfred treat her if it came up. prefers to go to Leslie cause she trusts her more, and as such bruce usually only hears about her injuries after the fact.

---steph fully mocks bruce that if he was the worlds greatest detective he would know when shes hurt, goes to Leslie or alfred if its really bad

this was a toss up, but damian is next, assassins dont really lend them selves to being good people to tell that your injured, even the ones ment to serve you. damian is basically allergic to telling anyone anything is actually wrong with him ever, unless its him and bruce one of one. bruce is essentially the only person he trusts enough to admit hes injured.

--getting damian to admit hes injured is like trying to give a feral cat a bath, no one likes doing it but its necessary sometimes

jason!! second to last on the list, jason would actually fully chew off his own leg then tell the bats hes injured ever. not only because he doesn't trust 90% of them not to use it to fuck him over, but also because bruce will become simultaneously the most helicopter parent and the emotional brick wall the second he knows Jason's hurt, its honestly worse then being shot to see him try and ground jason like hes still a child, while also being full emotional brick wall batman mode

--jason has pushed tim down the bottomless pit in the cave before just so he could bolt before bruce could quarantine him in the cave cause he got hurt, jason would fully fist fight his way out of the batfam then ever admit hes hurt

and to round it off cass! cass will slink away to hide and lick her wound and you would never know shes hurt unless she lets you. raised as a weapon i dont think David cain was the kinda person to treat an injury with anything other then disappointment, and cass still sees her own injury as failures in her training. shes fully capable of doing most of her own medical care and useing it to her advantage in avoiding telling anyone her injuries.

--cass broke her arm once and as soon as it was put in a cast no one saw her tell it was fully healed. not even bruce is sure where she was or what she was doing during those months

#dc comics #batman #jason todd #dick grayson #damian wayne #robin #dc #tim drake #duke thomas #stephanie brown #cassandra cain #headcannons #batfam #batman headcanon

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chibinightowl · 1 year

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Ever since my gallbladder surgery last weekend, I keep thinking about a fic where Tim has to have the same thing done. But the surgeon isn't one in a private hospital who won't ask questions about why his patient is covered in so many scars and admits to already having had a splenectomy too. There are many scars that have clearly been neatly stitched up while others have a wide scatter pattern almost like gunshot wounds. He voices his thoughts to the OR nurse who in turn reaches out to the hospital social worker.

Before Tim is even fully awake, there's a case opened up. All of this is happening outside of Gotham (maybe in San Francisco while Tim is with the Titans) so that's why it takes longer for Babs to learn what's going on and for Bruce to arrive and attempt damage control. It turns into a mess and he isn't allowed to see Tim at all, who's just blearily waking up and trying to keep fluids down, maybe asking for help to do a few laps around the unit to help shake the anesthesia. He's not so out of it though that he doesn't notice the hospital security guard trailing him and the nice RN who's holding his arm while he's got a death grip on his IV pole.

It's only that night when he's sleeping (he'd had a round of vomiting around dinner time that moved his release to the next morning) that Dick sneaks into the room and wakes Tim up to tell him what's going on. The fact Tim is an emancipated minor means nothing right now since clearly, some of his scars are old and faded from the passage of time.

Tim is honestly tired and uncomfortable and just wants to go back to sleep, but Dick is insistent that he repeat back Bruce's plan. He does and is finally allowed to return to his rest.

When he wakes up the next morning during the RN's rounds, he asks if he'll be allowed to leave today. She tells him that if he can keep his breakfast down, then yes. There is no medical reason to keep him in the hospital for longer. But while he's trying to eat the gloop that's trying to pass as oatmeal, the social worker enters, along with hospital security. Tim is well-aware of the fact his legal emancipation means they can't detain him nor does he have to be released into the care of his family. He doesn't want to be coddled to death in Gotham anyway, so he pulls a fast one once he's alone again and takes advantage of Kon's super hearing to send a message through him.

A couple hours later, Jason arrives at the hospital under one of his better fake IDs and Tim is released into his care. Jason finds this whole thing hilarious and is helping mostly because he loves it when Tim and Bruce are at odds with each other. Says it makes Tim seem more human and less like a robot.

Meanwhile, Bruce is tearing his hair out because he's being stymied at every turn while trying to see his son and has brought out the big guns in the form of his lawyers. He's not arrested per se, but he's being strongly encouraged not to leave the state while an investigation into Tim's medical background ensues. Of course, he's also wondering exactly why Tim didn't follow along with the plan Dick said he'd laid out to him. Dick is clueless as to why, but he has his suspicions that he doesn't voice. He'd been seventeen and rebellious once, so it doesn't take the World's Greatest Detective to figure out Tim is exercising his independence.

Of all the places, Jason takes Tim back to Gotham and sets up shop in Tim's apartment at the old theater to keep an eye on him. Tim is young and healthy, so his recovery will be quick, but he's also a Bat, which means he's prone to pushing his luck sooner than he should. There are arguments, bickering, and one time Jason has to physically carry Tim out of his Nest while the younger man protests loudly that he was only going to work for a couple of hours. Jason wonders why the hell he signed up for this because Tim is a handful, but he's also having a blast circumventing him, so he might as well stay for as long as he's having fun (come on, I had to put in a JayTim twist here eventually).

Blah blah blah, Bruce is eventually back in Gotham and he's Not Happy with how things turned out in California. He actually hadn't known about Tim's splenectomy until Dick told him about it (why wasn't it in Tim's file, Dick???), so he needs to have Words with his third son. When he goes to Tim's apartment, he's surprised to find Jason is there and looks rather comfortable being there too. He decides to question it later since Tim is alive and well, and bitching from the living room that he's bored and it's been two hours since he was allowed to have his tablet, so would Jason please give it back to him? (Jason has hidden it at the back of the top of the fridge where Tim can't reach or easily climb to given his current circumstances.)

It's all nicely domestic and warms Bruce's heart to see them getting along. He tries to talk to Tim about what happened, who just shrugs and says he didn't feel like going to the manor to be coddled to death and benched until kingdom come. Bruce then tries asking him about the missing spleen and when the story comes out, he's seeing red. Excusing himself, he sets off to find Ra's's current location and make his life a miserable living hell for a while.

More blah blah blah and by the time Jason leaves Tim's apartment, a few weeks have passed. Tim isn't patrolling yet, but he's back in his Nest and offering tech and IT support to Jason during his own patrols and cases. They're working together, which is nice. Team Red is how the others start calling them.

You guys can figure out your own ending. ;)

#chibi's thoughts #notfic #maybe jaytim?#you decide

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zahri-melitor · 7 months

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It’s time for the Potted Fanon History One True Heir, Robin V: DAMIAN WAYNE!

Damian, conception: Talia seduced Bruce and they were married under Special League of Assassins Law. Talia got pregnant and hid it from Bruce. She may have told him she had a miscarriage or she may just have not mentioned anything.

Damian, birth: might be natural, might be an artificial womb. Either way, immediately inducted into the Order of Assassins.

Damian, small child: Damian is raised in Nanda Parbat speaking Arabic. He may also be called Ibn al Xu’ffasch by ordinary assassins. Talia is highly involved in his training and he is learning to assassin.

Damian, small child: Talia either tells him stories of his noble father in Gotham City who he must earn his right to meet OR won’t tell him anything until he earns his right to find out.

Damian, small child: being a small assassin in training involves many terrible tests he must face, most of them with the word ‘Blood’ or ‘Shadow’ in the title and which involve people beating him up or him killing small animals. Damian refuses to kill the animals.

Damian, 6-7: encounters Jason while Jason is also with the League. They train together with knives. May call each other brother.

Damian, child: Damian is taught many things by his tutors and has a university level understanding of dozens of different topics. He’s just that smart. (If it’s convenient for the plot he knows it)

Damian, 9-10: finally he is told he has met enough tests to deserve to meet his father. Talia takes him to Gotham.

Damian, 9-10: anxious to price his worthiness to be Robin and his father’s heir, Damian immediately sets out to kill Tim to prove his superiority and right to be Robin. That’s how it works in the League of Assassins after all!

Damian, 9-10: Ra’s Al Ghul tries to kidnap Damian to take over his body. This fails and Damian is rescued by the Bats. (It is unclear where Damian has been living)

Damian, 9-10: Bruce dies. Dick is worried Damian will run back to the League as Bruce isn’t around so he makes Damian Robin. If we do Battle for the Cowl Damian rescues Tim and Tim is ungrateful about this.

Damian, 10: Dick and Damian are Batman and Robin. They save each other a lot. Damian comes to trust Dick and think of him like a father. They’re the greatest team ever.

Damian, 10: Tim comes back and Damian discovers Tim still does not trust him! This is unfair! He’s worked so hard with Dick to learn to be Robin! Damian immediately starts trying to kill Tim again (cuts his line).

Damian, 10: gets injured and his spine is replaced with METAL.

Damian, 10: Damian gets his own Batgirl, Stephanie. She is now acting as his babysitter every time they have to do anything public, but she acts fun about it.

Damian, 10: Bruce comes back. Initially Damian stays his his real father, Dick, but Bruce eventually takes back over as Batman. Damian resents this. Dick stays living at the Manor to smooth things over.

Damian, 10: Damian gets a pet cat Alfred and a pet Dog Titus and a pet cow Batcow and a pet turkey Jerry and he’s a vegetarian and he just loves animals so much. Nobody else (except Dick and Alfred) are allowed near his pets.

Damian, 10: Damian is now getting along with Jason, who is now an anti-hero, or he’s excited to be reunited with Jason who he recalls from the League of Assassins. Jason has never tried to kill Damian. Damian still gets into constant fights with Tim.

Damian, 10: Damian dies as Robin. It was heroic. Everyone mourns him deeply. Bruce immediately starts trying to resurrect him.

Damian, 10: Damian is resurrected. Dick cries a lot and they hug.

Damian, 10-12: Damian meets Jon Kent! They are immediate best friends called the Super Sons who hang out together all the time and get into trouble and go on adventures. This is far cooler than the Teen Titans.

Damian, 10-12: Damian has an adventure where he meets Goliath, a furry red dragon bat.

Damian, 12-13: even though Super Sons is cooler, Damian ALSO leads a Teen Titans team despite being the youngest by a very long way. How hard could it be? Dick and Tim have done it. Who is on this team? Big shrug, they’re not Jon.

Damian, currently: Damian is Robin and working in Gotham with Bruce as his Batman. He goes out with Dick to patrol quite often. His single only friend is Jon, who is also still a teen, unless someone has decided Colin Wilkes is around. He still considers that his life goal is to grow up to be Batman.

#potted bat fanon histories

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nightwings-robin · 1 year

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having some feelings about Joe Chill in this Chili's tonight.

I often hate how Joe Chill and the Wayne murders are handled, specifically when it's part of some bigger grand scheme as opposed to just a regular everyday mugging and how that relates to Bruce as a character. I feel like something is lost when Thomas and Martha are killed because of some conspiracy or whatever. I think it takes away from one of the core reasons why Bruce became Batman in the first place.

like it's supposed to be a random act of senseless violence! not some huge conspiracy with a secret group controlling Gotham or because of some mob connection. I don't want Joe Chill to be in the Court of Owl or be a Talon or a hired hit-man or to be a mob boss or or or

I think Joe Chill works best as a character and plot device when he is simply a guy who needed some quick cash and robbed the first wealthy people he saw. (maybe killing them was an accident or maybe he did mean to kill all three but didn't realize that he didn't have enough bullets for Bruce. idk haven't figured that part out yet)

it doesn't have to be any more grand than that!

Bruce became Batman so that he could stop random acts of violence from tearing families apart. so that no one else has to watch their loved ones get murdered right in front of them.

that is the core of what he does and why he does it.

making his parents be the target of the Owls or the mob or whatever kind of takes that away imo.

AND ANOTHER THING

I don't like when stories have Bruce figure out who killed his parents. I like it to be a mystery! I like the irony of Bruce being the World's Greatest Detective but the one case he can't solve is his own.

the irony! the drama! the frustration! the feelings of inadequacy!

he keeps going back to the case. HIS case. trying to find new leads, new evidence, new anything. but there is none! because there was no rhyme or reason to the killings. it was just some guy who needed money. and that could be anyone.

I feel like Bruce never being able to find the guy who killed his parents would actually be better for his character growth than if he ever was able to confront Joe Chill. it would push him harder to want to be a better detective. it would give him more drive! like yeah I do want him to have some closure and some solace but I also have a lot of feelings about his pursuit of finding his parents killer being ultimately fruitless and bleak.

it could also add a layer to his relationship with his kids, specifically the ones who also have murdered parents. but the thing is, all them who have dead parents know who the killers were. there's no mystery to who killed Dick's parents, or Jason's parents, or Tim's parents. Bruce can relate to them all for having murdered parents but he can't relate to actually having that closer of Who Did It.

it's what drives him to help Dick take down Tony Zucco. it's about the guilt he feels knowing his own friend Harvey Dent killed Jason's father. it's about how he couldn't save Sheila Haywood from the Joker along with Jason. it's about how Jack Drake was killed by a villain that Bruce easily would have taken down had he been there. it's about how he couldn't actually save any of his kids bio parents but has solace knowing that at least they won't lie awake at night wondering who it was that killed them like he's done every single damn day since he was eight years old.

does anyone else have as many thoughts and feelings about Joe Chill as I do???

this post was brought to you by my long tags on this post.

#bruce wayne #batman #thomas and martha wayne #joe chill #batman meta #dc comics #please feel free to add on #I'm curious what other people think

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yvtro · 1 year

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Jason was Red Robin in countdown right? I keep hearing about weird but okay development through that event. What do you think about his countdown progression?

i moved to @boyfridged. i still post countdown meta there sometimes:)

the thing about countdown is that at first glance, it’s not great characterisation. it comes from the same era as atrocities such as brothers in blood or the battle for the cowl, and it is often dismissed by association. and i have to admit, there are some aspects to how jay's personality is written there that unnerve me. it has ups and downs, which for the most part reflect jay’s own inner conflicts. but overall? this is one of the greatest progressions we’ve got in jay’s storyline, ever. there's only one arc that i genuinely despise, and even then there's plenty of potential. let me get into it. -> full analysis under the cut. (i don't provide with a full summary, but rather go through notable storylines and moments)

countdown #51

let's start from the very beginning, when duela poses the question (as seen above): "who exactly are you? how does jason todd fit into the grand comics scheme of things?" i think it's salient, since it implies that the writers actually had to ask this question themselves. they care about jason's place in-universe, as much as they care about it in the wider narrative. and you know what, that's a low bar, but most dc writers don't seem to consider these things *at all* when they approach writing a new character.

following from there, it should not be surprising that the whole progression even in this first issue is utterly fascinating and very well thought through.

here we see jason saying that he is "not too tolerant of gun-wielding crazies [himself]". this is notable because at the time jason is mostly established as... a gun-wielding crazy himself. as much as i hate it, this is the same timeline in which jason is briefly portrayed as a psychotic villain. other characters, not in an overly sensitive way, call him epithets such as deranged. but here we see, obviously, that jason doesn't perceive himself as such.

we also get a glimpse at the discordance between his beliefs, actions and emotional response; duela wants to kill someone; jay in reply emphasises that an "innocent life" cannot be sacrificed just to make a point about someone's identity. he follows her to fight her, but instead ends up trying to save her in an encounter with a monitor, and seems at least shocked (and at most shaken, hard to tell with the hood) when he does not manage to.

I just want to once again stress that it’s so delightful how evident it is that his "moral code" is all hazy and a bit hypocritical. the progression of all things he says and does is so irrational that it’s thrilling.

enter monitor saying that "anomalies should be purged" – a parallel to jason's own philosophy about criminals. in a way, this is the first time when he is confronted with his own agenda about “purging” the world from evil to minimise harm. and he intuitively disagrees with it! what really shines through here is that on some level, jason still believes in rehabilitation and the right to live. i will say it again and again and again, this is a boy who died trying to save someone who sold him out for torture. here's his great internal conflict, the tension between the intuitive belief in kindness vs trauma that made him want to detach himself from it and focus on retribution.

teen titans (2003) #47

in an encounter with dick and tim jay is accused on killing duela. he tells them that he tried to save her, and donna stands in his defence, saying that she saw him at duela’s funeral. this is a really significant set-up.

countdown #50

the issue contains a narrative about jason that brings in some of his worst appearances from the timeline and based on that calls him “unpredictable” – a characterisation that i’m not a fan of, but then again, it’s 2007; the editorial board cared a bit more about the integrity of characterisation, thus i can’t exactly be mad that they mention it.

but what this issue does is acknowledging that jason is not just some unstable villain. “jason todd… to say he’s complicated is an understatement.” <- containing multitudes etc. "i’ve been around plenty of metahumans, aliens, new gods and vigilantes over the years… i’ve met batman loads of times and believe me, he’s plenty scary. but jason… he’s a lot like batman, but he’s willing to do what batman never would. he’s willing to kill.” <- one of the first of many comparisons of jay and bruce in the series. i do eat them up.

countdown #48 – duela's funeral.

“all right… after she died, it got me thinking about what that alien said… about how duels wasn’t even supposed to be in this reality in the first place, you know? and neither am i… […] and then there’s you, donna… […] i guess I just wanted to be around someone else who might know how it feels… to be living on borrowed time”

jason says what he probably has been thinking all that time out loud (regarding the fact that he does not belong in this reality; he’s supposed to be dead), and it makes sense that he says it now, with the impending feeling of doom.

he seeks out someone. he recognises that there are other people in this world that have experiences that are of semblance to his own ones, and that he does not have to be completely isolated. this is character development, and I’m not saying it to be funny; i’m saying it to highlight the fact that in lord’s year 2007, dc editors and writers decided that jason was allowed to seek emotional closure in a healthy manner. it might be slightly underwritten (for it to be truly interesting we would need a longer progression) but the circumstances make it plausible enough.

countdown #46

i just want to highlight this panel. i wrote more about it here.

countdown #33

“i’ve got no problem with kyle. he’s great. he’s dreamy” (a honorary mention)

countdown #43

- here, jason suggests that they should get help of other heroes in trying to tackle the crisis. this is an intriguing progression, which might seem random for jason, but it really shows that the writers did their homework and read at least the new teen titans, wherein robin jason was responsible and reasonable enough not to overestimate his own abilities in the field.

countdown #30

the challengers travels to earth-15, one where donna is a wonder woman and jason is batman. this is one of my favourite issues, for several reasons:

–> a striking similarity between bruce and jason, that really shines through when jay is wearing a cowl. i briefly talk about earth-15 jay here.

–> jason fighting himself. literally. internal conflict externalised! it is clear that earth-15 jay views earth prime jay as immature, but he’s also not an adult enough to refrain from fighting back.

-> this is the first earth were jason is confronted with a world that could be. i believe that before that, jason perceived his trauma and becoming red hood as fate. seeing a version of himself that is batman? this shows that his identity is not set in stone. he's forced to face the fact that he can become someone else.

the all new atom #14

a mild and frustrating setback in characterisation, whereas jason hits before he asks questions. i am more frustrated by how stupid it was rather than the violence itself.

more importantly (although not impactful nor related to anything at all!) we get to see an echo of jay’s soul that was left in heaven.

countdown #27 – #26

jason pretends to betray the team which prompts further in-fighting. i like how donna in anger almost calls him “red hood” but switches to “todd.” it’s a reference to the fact that jason is not using the rh identity anymore, even if it’s not a fully realised decision yet.

countdown #16 - #13

perhaps my favourite storyline. setting: earth 51.

-> “isn’t that your super-power, stupid boy? too stupid to ever give up?” “maybe it is.” <- an element of characterisation that i thoroughly appreciate. more on it here.

-> #15 jason meets this earth’s batman and learns that he killed the joker after his [or rather, robin jason’s of this universe] death. bruce’s actions mirror that of red hood jason – bruce went on to eradicate the whole gotham rogues. this is an issue in which jay perhaps comes to a realisation that he should be careful what he wishes for; he is utterly disappointed in this version of bruce. a more detailed post on it here.

-> #14: red robin intro. red robin is an id that bruce of earth 51 devised with thought of his jay growing up and moving on to another title. (it doesn’t really make sense, does it) bruce sees himself in jason and tells him to “gear up” as he will help in the field.

-> now, i don’t like the concept of jason keeping the red robin title past countdown, but as a brief episode in his development? this is excellent. jason gets to experience working with bruce as a (sort of) sidekick one more time. maybe this is what he needs to move on. to briefly feel comfortable in the role that he grew to despise, the past self that he tried to bury. to hear batman call him “chum” one more time and nudge “you used to crack jokes at moments like this!” before he can leave this life behind. to come to accept it as a formative experience.

-> #13 earth-51 batman dies. genuinely one of the most harrowing moments in the series. i must say that i wonder if jason is agonizing more over the fact that it was a fnale to such a short-lived partnership that mirrored his past, or if maybe he feels responsible for what happened to this bruce (as bruce went out to fight inspired by him.) or maybe both?

countdown #11 - #4

jason decides that he is done with the whole affair and leaves the team in hopes of going back to the home earth on his own (they follow him). in the process, he tries to help some people in fight, but quickly decides he doesn't actually care (allowing them to die), and in #4, when they are getting ready for the final confrontation with the enemy, he tells the challengers from beyond to fuck off, and leaves saying something as cheesy as "see you suckers!"

i will be honest with you, i really don't know what to think about the progression in these issues. on the one hand, i am a fan of the idea that bruce's death would send jason into a frenzy. he was the one who gave earth-51 bruce sudden faith into vigilantism, and batman ended up dead. this might, for jay, be a final straw, where he decides that his (murderous) optimism and stubborness is a mistake. on the other hand, i believe even with that happening, with the way his development is set up, you would think he should go out from this internal conflict victorious.

countdown #1

some more elucidated thoughts on the ending here.

jason has an internal monologue about how the capes are "crazy," and how he is not "crazy" etc etc. again, this could be interesting in the sense that seeing batman murdered was a traumatic experience for him. in a way, he is trying to isolate himself from the concept of heroism, because it does reflect his own values (strong will and hope), but these values are the very same ones that got him (and earth-51 bruce) killed.

on the other hand, we see him without a mask and interrogating (torturing?) someone. which brings in some questions regarding what his idea of starting a new life is. because it doesn't seem promising. either for himself or anyone else.

so, the conclusion seems like negative character development rather positive one, yet, there's still plenty potential. the most notable element of it is that now jason appears to consider vigilantism as a whole as victimising (although this is not what he would call it, probably), and he takes off the mask. nonetheless, it also seems that he proceeds to do... the very same thing he has done before? (there is some space for interpretation regarding what the interrogation is about. is he working a case? he's seeking information, so it does seem so). this all, in a way, shows that jason doesn't understand the dichotomy of the civilian vs vigilante identity. he's still not able to abandon the field. and maybe this set up is just perfect for him to realise that the problem is not about whether he's wearing a domino or not, or if he isolates himself from the community – because either way, he's still trying to do the same thing as they do. either way, he's still trying to save the world. either way, he still is similar to bruce, who, as he says is "one step from craziness."

the potential of the ending is such that jason ends up in an interesting grey zone wherein he doesn't have any identity whatsoever (he's still legally dead!), and seems to want to keep it this way, which is honestly a fascinating concept. this is even more mind-boggling when you consider that the got all of these multiverse encounters that arrange for development in the opposite direction. and in my mind, if at that point his character were to be taken over by a talented writer, they could still capitalise on all of these elements. in that moment, jason still hasn't truly processed what happened in the past months, and is blinded by grief and repressing it alike. but in the course of trying to work as a... non-entity without either civilian nor vigilante identity, he could realise that it doesn't fix anything, because what all of it is about is himself and how he copes with loss.

countdown presents: the search of ray palmer

for the sake of brevity: mostly truly excellent material, brilliant team interactions. chronogically, it is set somewhere around issue 30-20 probably, but can be read independently.

what i want to highlight is how it emphasises jason's love for gotham, but also how in gotham by gaslight jay wonders if he could find his way back to this earth afterwards. i think more than anything else, it shows how much jason feels detached from the world, and how he craves a new start somewhere that is both familiar (gotham) but also different enough that he would not have to be confronted with his past there. it also makes me wonder if jay would want to stay on earth 51 if not for bruce's death there.

and that's the end of the analysis. to summarise: what makes countdown so exceptional is how earnestly it shows jason's internal conflicts and his process of perpetual repression and self-isolation. however, unlike the later books (up to today, really) it also pushes him in a new direction and establishes a ground for great character development.

edit: i have another long countdown meta post here.

#but i also do write summaries and commentary for my own reference:)#?? i will be impressed if anyone reads the whole thing #countdown #dc comics #jason todd #jay meta

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autisticcassandracain · 1 year

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Batkids ranked from best to worst candidate to take over the Batman mantle according to my very objective (/sarcasm) opinions:

Cass: Cass is loyal to the bat symbol before all else; the bat pulled her out of an aimless, guilt-ridden existance and gave her purpose, a chance to help others, and she takes this very very seriously. She's canonically the most similar to Bruce out of everyone, and values the no killing rule more than him. She wants the job so bad, because to her, Batman is everything she could ever hope to be. Continuing the bat symbol into a new generation, to help and inspire others like her, would be the greatest honor for her. Becoming Batman would be the natural conclusion of her arc.

Dick: Has canonically been Batman and did very well at it, better even than Bruce, canonically. But Nightwing fits him better. He adapted to the Batman mantle, and eventually stopped being miserable in it, but it was a choice made out of necessity, not personal drive. Nightwing was his own creation and fits him like a second skin. He can do Batman, he can do it well, but it won't be natural for him like it would be for Cass.

Steph: There's a fucking curveball for you. Honestly Steph is here bc other than Cass and Dick I don't think there's a good choice for Batman, if Bruce kicks it and neither of them are around I think Batman should just die, but for the sake of this list we will look at how much I'd enjoy seeing the other kids take up the mantle in canon. Steph becoming Batman would be so funny. It'd be a great storytelling opportunity because there's no way she should even be in line so what happened? How does she deal with it? But most importantly, once again, it'd be SO FUNNY if Steph got the mantle of Batman after Bruce treated her as shittily as he did. That's what you get old man.

Tim: idk he'd handle the job badly and would be miserable but this is my list and I don't really care about him so he's here as a placeholder. If Tim became Batman I'd be annoyed but not enraged. So there.

Duke: Perhaps an unpopular opinion among Duke fans but I fucking hate the idea of Batman!Duke. It can work in very specific Elseworld circumstances like Dark Knights Metal but in the mainline continuity? Absolutely tf not. Duke's whole Thing is a radical departure from the batfam's status quo. He's thematically and literally attached to daylight, he has superpowers. Both of those are already wildly antithetical to Batman. In addition: his current hero identity is an homage to his mother. Why would he throw that away? Batman!Duke could be interesting for an arc or two, because all this WOULD make for interesting narrative conflict, but permanently? It'd be a wild misuse of Duke's character to take a character designed to defy the status quo and stick him in a mantle that exists to uphold it. If Bruce dies and Duke's the only one that could take over, Batman should die and Signal should take his place.

Damian: FUCK Batman!Damian all my homies HATE Batman!Damian. All those arcs and character development about how blood doesn't define him only for him to let blood define him, just on the other side of his family? You're all so fucking boring and you should feel bad. And while we're here, no he shouldn't be Nightwing either, that's only slightly less bad, why would stepping from one Dick Grayson legacy mantle to another denote character growth? I have OPINIONS on this. Damian should create his own identity to show that he's grown into his own and found his own path outside of his families. Also 90% of the arguments for Batman!Damian hinge on blood relations which is weird and creepy and also very very very boring.

Jason: I don't think I need to explain this.

Any variant of sharing the mantle: Every time the 'who should be the next batman' debate comes up there's always SOME motherfucker insisting that x and y can just share and two things to that: 1) coward, are you gonna hand out participation trophies next? 2) Batman should not be a status symbol. The batfam should not be a hierarchy with Batman at the top. That's the most boring way possible to approach the Batman mantle. I get that's what DC does in canon, but in canon, they won't ever let Bruce die permanently anyway, so what canon does is kinda a moot point. And frankly? Pretty much all 'x and y should share' arguments seem to be based in the idea that Batman is automatically a better, more prestigious mantle than all others, and that being deprived of it means you're worse than whoever took it. They want everyone to hold the mantle simulaneously because they don't want their fave(s) to 'lose'. It's not a competition of skill, it's a matter of narrative satisfaction. And the only character whose arc would be actively strengthened by becoming Batman is Cass. She shouldn't get it because she's the best fighter, or lose/share it because she's not the best detective; she should get it because it would be a perfect bookend to her arc of self hatred and self determination via the bat. Everyone else is better off with a solo identity or a different legacy mantle. So no, sharing is not a magic solution; it's a cop out.

#Batman isnt a competition but if it was cass would win #My posts #Infodumping #Cassandra cain #Dick grayson #Duke thomas #Stephanie brown #Damian wayne #Tim drake #Jason todd

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soleminisanction · 2 years

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I don't have much experience with comics, but one thing that keeps popping up in fic and shocking me is how MEAN people write Stephanie. In a way where it's like they almost don't realize she's being mean, if that makes sense? For example I was reading this fic where Tim and Steph were having this emotional reunion after he thought she was dead, and she called him "boy blunder." And continued to call him that throughout the fic. Am I crazy or is that an awful thing to call someone? I guess they were going for an inside joke, but to me it just seems so cruel, like every time she talks to Tim she's implying he's made a mistake. Of all the plays on "boy wonder" I've seen, that sounds the meanest. Is this something she calls him when they're together in the comics, do you know?

Oh she's absolutely called him Boy Blunder in the comics, along with things like Boy Wonderbread and Boy Virgin once when she was poking fun at him freaking out over her pregnancy. It's true in fics and it's true in canon: a lot of what people try to pass off as Steph being "snarky" or "quirky" is just her being flat-out mean, but never getting called out on it.

It's everywhere. And you're right that people don't realize it -- in fandom or the comics. She turned up in Damian's Robin book recently for exactly one line of dialogue and that line was a judgemental insult -- "Your weird, gross pizza is over there, Damian." She only has a grand total of three lines in the action portion of "The Elephant in the Room" and two out of those are just her insulting Tim (while the third one might as well be "Ooooo, what does THIS button do?"). Hell. half of the so-called "jokes" in Batgirls are just Steph being a catty, judgemental brat while the narrator goes "lol isn't she funny?"

And it's not even a recent thing. I haven't been able to make a post about this because I'm on a freelancing deadline IRL but someday I'm going to go on a massive rant about Jordanna Spence, the poor civilian girl inserted into Steph's supporting cast as Batgirl whose only narrative purpose is to provide one of The Other Girls for Steph to insult and bully constantly for the crime of wearing pink and being in a sorority. (And sometimes she's accidentally racist about it, which is...""fun"")

Steph will spend storyarcs hanging out with like, Damian or Kara or Klarion, and they're all treated like these Big Meaningful Bonding Experiences, but all Steph does the entire time is insult them and make judgemental comments about everything they say or do. And yet every single one ends the story thinking she's the greatest person who ever lived and lining up to suck her dick with everyone else in the comic.

It's honestly messed up, but here's the thing: it's absolutely not a Steph-exclusive issue. You know who else I've heard these exact criticisms leveled at? Bella Swan. And Hermione Granger, to a lesser extent only because she's the author self-insert but not the point-of-view character. That's part of why She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's adult novels are so much worse, because they are told from the PoV of the self-insert character and thus we're constantly barraged with her judgemental opinions about men, trans women, poor people, people with heavy accents, any woman who doesn't perform femininity to the author's exacting standards and, of course, fat people.

It's a symptom of the self-insert character, is I guess what I'm saying. Which of course means that it also gets applied to literally everyone else in the Batfamily on occasion too -- the boys and Bruce especially but also like, I'm sorry, I don't think Cass suddenly learning to curse and be casually mean is funny, I think it's a sign of lazy writing.

The difference being of course that the guys get written by a lot of different people, many of whom are interested in them as characters instead of just as vehicles to project themselves onto. Several others (especially in fandom) do just use them as vehicles (Damian hasn't been given to a good writer in over a decade and god knows Jason got more than his fair share of Very Special Boy treatment during the New 52), but it's not the only part in their canon.

Steph, though? Since the end of War Games forward, she's been nothing but a self-insert character designed for straight white women to project themselves onto. Which is sexist and sucks and obviously can't be called "the character's fault" or anything, but knowing all of that doesn't make her mean-spirited bullying any easier to put up with if you're not one of the people getting off on the power fantasy of being the bully.

#long post #stephanie brown critical #anti stephanie brown #dc comics asks #rambling #cursing #I get a little vulgar in there but tbh suck her dick is the best way I can describe the way most people treat steph brown #vent #this actually felt good thank you for giving me an outlet to just get this off my chest #I've been seeing a lot of her panels floating around Discord channels lately and it struck me hard how MEAN she is in all of them

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bluboothalassophile · 2 years

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What's your favorite thing about each Batfamily member (there are a lot but I mean B, the bat boys including Duke, the batgirls and anyone you really like that sticks out)

Hello,

So that's actually going to be fun to answer.

I love EVERYTHING about Alfred Pennyworth, he is king, he's amazing, he's the best character and I think DC thought his backstory out thoroughly. I love him, he's amazing. Hands down the best character ever in the Batfamily.

Bruce I enjoy his detective skills, I enjoy when he's being a good father to his kids because then he's trying to be a person not consumed by his tragedy. I enjoy how he can evolve and I love his compassion and empathy for the victims he sees.

With Dick, I enjoy his optimism, he's got a more hopeful look on the world, though he does take things at face value. He's also determined not to be defined by his tragedy, and he tries so hard to be the best him he can be for everyone, and I admire that. I admire his determination to be his best self and be better than Bruce.

For Barbara I like her intelligence and her resilience; because she could've let what happened to her break her, but she made it a strength instead, and I can respect that.

I don't like anything about Kate so... I got nothing for her.

I love everything about Jason, temper included. Next to Alfred, he's my favorite. I love everything about him.

I do like Athanasia, I think she's got potential to be redeemed, and I think she'd be a child who could help Bruce grow. I like her concept, and what she could be, I don't necessarily like her as she stood in the comics though if that makes sense.

Cass is precious, I love how hard she tries to be Batman, to be honest, I love her dancing and learning to read. It's so pure and adorable, because she wants to learn.

Duke is still so new, but I love the fact he's a metahuman and breaking all of B's: no metas rules, I love he's defying expectations set for him and how he's growing. I also love how he's a natural leader, none of the Bats are great leaders of movements or groups; tactical team leaders they're fantastic, but they aren't great at inspiring people, so I really like that Duke is a more natural leader.

Tim is easy to like, however, my greatest love for Tim is his resilience and determination, also his selflessness. He's became Robin because Batman needs a Robin, and despite everything that happened to him, he's still bonded to Jason. I love his resilience, truly, because so many things should just knock him down on his ass and destroy him and he doesn't let it.

Stephanie is so strong, she's suffered so much and she's still got a smile in place, and she's still got hope. She's been through a lot, and she's still going, she gets up every time something knocks her down, and she's unyielding.

Damian has the best growth you can see in comics over the course of a decade, because he goes from unfriendly little shit to tolerable, and loved little brother. I like his evolution because he's got possibilities in his future, he could be greater than Bruce and he's still figuring himself out. I love how much he loves his animals, and his hidden art and child side, it's endearing.

I love the Bats for their determination, resilience, and their empathy and compassion, because that's what makes the Bats amazing.

#bluboothalassophile #hello reader

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sungbeam · 1 year

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XNONIE PRESENT (FINALLY) !!!

hi beam! college has been kicking my butt recently ☹️ idk how ppl do it but i'm dragging myself through the week right now LMAO

i don't see anything 😀 when i search up my asks 😀 so i unfortunately 😀 have a very vague 😀 idea of our last convo 😀

but i DO remember that you asked about dc!! i'm glad u asked b/c i'm actually trying to get into dc right now! i'm watching titans season 1 on hbo max, recently watched black adam, saw ww84, & saw the new batman movie a while ago! beast boy is kinda 😍💖💕💗💞 in titans HEHEHE- my favorite dc characters rn are him & starfire but i really wanna delve into the franchise more!! who are ur dc biases so far 🙏 (yes we'll be using kpop terminology for non-kpop fandoms from now on)

also i have NOT listened to 28 reasons by seulgi yet b/c of my schedule i feel like such a fake reveluv but i'm looking into that 😭 AND YES GIVE CRAVITY SOME LOVE ON PARTY ROCK <3 i'm taeyoung biased ever since i saw his tiktoks (all their tiktoks are iconic tbh they keep up w/ trends LOL)

HOW HAVE U BEEN BTW?? and are u excited for wakanda forever? i can't believe its coming so soon alreadyyyy 😟❗️

XNONIE !!! BFF !!! I'M SO SORRY FOR MY LATE REPLY I'VE JUST LACKED SO MUCH ENERGY TO EVEN REPLY TO ASKS THIS WEEK (´Д⊂ヽ but i was so excited to see u active and alive akcnekfnek idk how people do it either tbh :') like i felt that so hard when u said ur practically dragging urself thru the week like me too dude, me too 😔 LMAO SOMETHING IS UP W TUMBLR TAGS 🗿🗿🗿 as there always is tbh, but i went thru and found my latest response so i'll link it here BAHHAHA

AHHHH DC YESYES !!! i actually haven't watched the live action titans series yet :0 but i follow ryan potter on instagram so i've def seen some stuff for it !! he's so hot tho so true 😩😩😩 i kinda wish he was casted as nightwing/dick grayson cuz he would've made a really good one, but the current one i think fits as well :') ahh yes i actually am not the greatest fan of dc movies lmao just cuz their animated tv shows r just top notch and so much better imo but i did enjoy the first wonder woman and robert pattinson's the batman !! ooh my dc biases? it's prob the bat boys AHAHAHHA i'm writing an au inspired by them actually rn hehe so basically nightwing/dick grayson, red hood/jason todd, and red robin/tim drake, but i am also particularly fond of roy harper/speedy and robin/damian wayne @_@ they all make my mind go brrrr (wbu tho 👀👀)

AHHHHH WAKANDA FOREVER I HAVENT WATCHED IT YET I FEEL SO SAD ☹️☹️☹️ it's cuz college has also been kicking my ass and watching marvel movies is a thing my family does together and it's just not the same going to see it in theaters w anyone else :( so i've been holding back skcnekfn have u seen it tho :0 i'm also so very excited for quantumania !!! (ﾉ´∀｀*) IT LOOKS SO SO SO GOOD SKFNKENFKD I LOVE PAUL RUDD PLS GIVE THAT MAN AN OSCAR RN

okok i think i also was gonna bring up the fact that i wanted to write another mcu au for svt?? like ik we were talking abt the xmen au, but i was thinking abt making minghao scarlet witch and basically yn is like the one person who truly saw him and when he lost u, all hell broke loose (like in wandavision), and so it's like him recreating a life w u while his friends on the outside r trying to break him out of it before the stinky government folks do skcnwidn

#sungbeam strikes again #xnonie 💥

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