#Literally the same as with Harley & Joker. People will be like ''She's only a villain bc of him UWU'' 🥺 | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

distort-opia · 1 year

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What is your ideal ghostbat dynamic?

Oh it's definitely the thrice-divorced snarky middle-aged men performing intricate rituals thing they currently got going on.

Batman 2022 Annual

Bruce Wayne, being a character with almost a century of history, has beein paired with so many individuals. There's a lot of relationships he's formed over time, but a particularly interesting type is the people-who-knew-him-before-Batman category. Harvey Dent, Thomas Eliot, Zatanna Zatara, Talia al Ghul... and now Minhkhoa Khan. Obviously, quite a lot of these characters ended up as unequivocal villains Batman has had to fight (Two-Face, Hush) while Zatanna remained a childhood-friend-and-almost-lover. Talia and Khoa are more complicated; they're definitely not heroes, not exactly on the same side as Bruce. But they aren't downright villains either. The waters are more muddled. In Talia's case there's the conflict between her loyalty and love for her father, duty and legacy; this opposition to Bruce's own goals was there from the start. But (to finally get to my point with this tangent) there was no such thing with Khoa, and that's basically my main draw to the ship. Bruce has other people that know him as just Bruce and not Batman, or as the in-between (all unique and complex relationships in their own right), but I can only think of Khoa as someone who was present for Batman being forged. While Talia was there when Bruce was training, she didn't share the same goal of combating crime, but Khoa did. For someone so desperately lonely as Bruce is, having someone to share that road with meant so much. Not only that, Khoa contributed to the formation of Batman by engaging him in the wild competitive streak they share, by pushing Bruce to rise to his level.

Hence... the unique kind of familiarity they have even decades later, despite the numerous betrayals along the way. That's an ideal component to me-- Bruce feeling like he can easily be himself. It's a rarity to him, since he plays so many different roles to many different people. And after Alfred's death, someone so important who knew him utterly and supported him from the start, he clearly missed it. It didn't really matter that Khoa killed dozens of people when he showed up in Gotham and literally declared he'll traumatize Bruce by killing a kid in front of him (which he probably would have done, if Harley hadn't managed to be as persuasive as she was). After Selina leaving him, Dick getting shot, his own father and Bane taking his city away, Alfred dying, losing his fortune and Joker War happening... myeah, I really feel like Khoa showed up at the perfect moment.

Which leads me to another component of their dynamic that I favor, and that's both of them being manipulative assholes and equals capable of kicking each other's asses. Why did Khoa show up with all of his resources after Joker War specifically? Why did Bruce ask him to stay so readily, forgoing the things Khoa had done? Hah. Khoa's undoubtedly been obsessed with Bruce, if keeping tabs on him and seeking out Jonathan Crane to learn fear and hell, even getting a sidekick to mirror Batman having a Robin is any indication. He gets to be close to Bruce and potentially ingratiate himself to him while fully knowing Bruce is using him, and Bruce knows it too-- but he's still allowing himself to depend on Khoa's resources and on him becoming part of Batman Incorporated and the more extended Bat-team. Khoa's always been manipulative; wonder if Bruce ever found out that in The Knight #4, Khoa was the one to tell those assassins Bruce's location, thus orchestrating a situation in which Bruce would finally accept to take him with him. But then, while they were training with Avery, Bruce was manipulative back, and you can literally see Khoa falling in love over it in The Knight #5, after Bruce distracts him with flirting and then steals the book.

At the end of the day, Khoa is a psychopath; perhaps not the sadistic kind, but he still operates as one, and Bruce can not only handle it, but he can handle it well. He's proven himself to be an equal, someone who challenges Khoa to improve and become better. Thing is, psychopaths overlap with narcissists a lot due to a basic reason. For neurotypical individuals, empathy acts as a way to see conspecifics as others, but like-minded others. You see other people think and emote like you, and you register them as human beings just like you. 'I feel what you feel, therefore we are the same.' But psychopaths work differently, in the sense that they often have excellent cognitive empathy, but a dulled affective one. They can tell how people think, but emotionally these things don't resonate with them-- the consequence being that they don't easily register others as equals, like-minded others. It's easy to then see yourself as the most valuable individual ever, as the center of the world, because you haven't truly ever shared that world. Which is why, when a psychopath meets someone they can relate to... they don't just relate, they become obsessed. Much like Khoa has. If all your life you felt you're separate from everyone else, having this kind of connection is life-changing, and you'll do whatever you need to preserve it. Including manipulative and murderous acts. But that's fine, because Bruce is attracted to this kind of thing. He himself has thought at some point about a woman (Jezebel Jet) that he should've known she was villainous and would betray him, because he had been attracted to her. I could get into Bruce's dating history and what it says about his preferences, but 'nuff said.

...Anyway, this got away from me, Anon :)) You probably didn't expect a whole-ass essay, but I hope you enjoyed reading through my personal take on them. I really like Khoa's character, since it's not often you get a morally-grey and complex psychopath like him, in comics. But to summarize my answer, my ideal Ghostbat dynamic is definitely one based on them being equals who know each other on a fundamental level, capable of handling both the good parts and the bad parts of the other; the one that solidified after decades of a push-and-pull between their core principles and ideals.

#besides. the duality between them when it comes to what fuels their fight against crime is fascinating #one obsessively letting their past define them while the other utterly rejects being defined by their past #[clenches fist] I'm so Normal about characters that mirror each other #asks #long post #batman #bruce wayne #minhkhoa khan #ghostbat #ghostbat meta

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qcomicsy · 2 years

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You know what? Fuck Batman and DC writers trying to gaslight me that what Jason does is wrong and dishonest and yara yara yara.

It's so fucking boring at this point.

And just blatantly wrong.

First of all, you cannot just say "oh but thats just bad you're a bad person >:c" at THIS POINT in comics. Because after pushing gray area morals and realism that y'all (writers) braggg SOO MUCH about it. Just going "murder bad >:c you bad >>>:ccc IT'S FUCKING STUPID."

For example. By the comics, (depending in what you believe) Tim Drake is a cheater. Is that what a good person does? In a black and white view. No, it is not therefore Tim is bad. Bruce is a fucking hypocrite who protect and revive a literal mass murder and doesn't hold up the same energy for his own children (HE RAISED) . Nightwing committed murder. Gordon constantly makes exceptions violating the law and his duties as a cop for random non affiliated vigilantes. Harley is irredeemable, because not only she kills and has killed before but also does it for fun. Talia, Damian, hell, even Cass are all murders in certain degrees. Even CATWOMAN wouldn't be saved . That being said. Does the comics considers them a horrible bad villainous people? >:((.

No, because they're fucking human beings and human beings fuck things up. Specially considering multiple circumstances they've been through: social, mental, developing, physical, environmental. It's realistic.

Yeah, so why when it comes for Jason. It's all fucking black and white.

But this is not a Jason apologist post, so if you hoping this take will be "Jason did nothing wrong" you going to be disappointed. Hold up a little because I'm gonna get to the point.

Listen here. I'm all for reparatory justice, honestly most of the time no matter how much it despises me, I do agree with Batman. But unlike him, I and maany people of the fandom, we just have- you know, common sense???

The problem with Batman, Nightwing (well hell why not) and Jason is that those three idiots lack of common sense. Their sense of justice seems like it comes from 14 year old boys. They're all are so trapped in their own traumas and struggles that they NEVER. EVER. Try to look outside their asses and view the villain-gotham-situation from a far away point of view.

Again I blame the writers. Because when they have good writing the generally do have braincells to analyze that.

You >>CANNOT<<. Hold the same energy you have with a mugger and with the fucking Joker. It doesn't make sense. It's just damn right stupid. It's cannon (and even true outside of comics) that the majority of people who turn to crime, are people who had nothing to begin with. Most of them are working class. Most of them are already born in the goddammit CRIME ALLEY. Most of them start before even turning into adults.

It's stated multiple times. That Gotham is a hard city to survive, it is filled with crime. Jason's first contact with crime and drugs and dealers was when he was younger than 10 years old. It's not just stupid, but also dishonest to pretend he was the only one, and all those muggers and henchmen are just terrible people that are there by choice because they're evil and need to be punished and killed. >:C

Some might be, but how the fuck would you know??

Because tale as old as time, if the system is as fucked as a gas leaking, shooting your way out of there isn't going to solve shit. You shoot this mugger today and next day it's going to be another one. There's a fucking reason why countries with high education and opportunities have less crime. There's a reason why gotham is corrupted and cursed. You cannot save everyone. Some people doesn't even want to be saved.

But shooting them is definitely doing more harm them good. Because they were just a mugger but their children might become a killer in ten years because you wanted to play god.

And at the same time. We cannot pretend that a man who went to prison million times. Who has been treated with 181838 who knows how many psychologists, therapists, psychiatrist. Who shows no remorse is as redeemable as someone who is taking cellphones and purses on street for money. Specially a man who tells you over and over again that they will kill, abuse, torture anyone (even people as close to you as possible) and everyone no matter how many times you arrest him and send him away. We cannot act like everybody is made of steal and it's not going to fucking snap at a person like that.

Let's not pretend a single man with flesh and bone have the right to decide what a serial killer fate should be just because he and the killer have a connection 🥺 And he can save him 🥺. And he have a code 😩. And what if he cannot hold himself anymore after 😳😳. Batman should have no authority on how people (people who were directly affected FOR LIFE by Joker) should react/respond to him, but YET DC keep trying to convince us he does.

Its pathetic.

Not killing is a thing. Constantly saving a murder is another.

And I go back to the central point because how Batman, Nightwing and Redhood react to different criminals it's honestly fully dependent on the writer and no one else. And oh boy, how many different interpretations we had over the years huh.

The point is. Both. BOTH. Of their point of view is flawed. You cannot hold your WHOLE belief system in a moral code with less than 10 words. I mean you can, but it won't last. Every situation is a situation. Every person is a person. There isn't no all right and all wrong all done recipe to deal with every fucking criminal existent. And the whole fact that two stubborn man hold into that belief systems with their damn life anyway is the most realistic thing of this setting.

"Jason is a murder and murder is wrong". Therefore "Jason is always wrong and Batman have the right to punish him >:c" Is one of the stupidest takes I've seen a comic book make in a while and I still don't know how they keep getting away with it.

Specially in how his punishments and mistreating coming from his own family are portrayed in the comics.

I don't give a fuck about what Batman think, and I'm goddam tired of Jason's whole arc is reapeating this whole dynamic over and over again.

You want to criticize Redhoods methods??? Then stop being a pussy and do it right addressing the real fucking problems about it.

Address how the people he killed before had a family and how they had to cope with their loss. How the fuck they survived and what they had to do to sustain themselves. Address how a single man cannot logistically always be certain of his informations and background checks, because not even an entire fucking justice system MADE FOR THAT can, and one day sooner or later Jason is going to be wrong. Address how when he plays double agent it doesn't undo the jobs he done for literally mob bosses. And how it doesn't matter he despites and hates himself and how self aware he is he still playing a part in this system as well as Batman does. As Bruce milionaire Wayne does.

And how at some point of his life he will have to confront the fact that. Yeah it was fucked. Yeah it was horrible he didn't deserve that. Fuck yeah Batman sucks. Nightwing sucks. They're all hypocrites. Fuck Joker. He didn't chose to be here. All of that.

But still, in real life, in this present moment. It is Jason fucking Todd who is chosing to do exactly what he's does.

Not Batman. Not Nightwing. Not Joker. Not pretender. Not his mom. Not his biologic father. Not his trauma. Him.

And no "Holly shit you become everything you hate because of the circumstances" and poetic irony regarding his biological dad is going to erase that.

Any day by now, eventually, it should be the consequences of his actions that would bite him in the ass. Not Batman.

Until then it doesn't matter what edgy angst violent discourse and or comic run regarding moral code and what the fuck Batman or the Batfam thinks of Jason's way of living and how does that affect him. I will not give a single fuck about it.

As I said before you have million reasons to criticize Jason life style but don't try to make me care bringing constantly the most stupid and lazy-writing one.

#my city #If at least it went somewhere it could but EVERYBODY even in the comic universe knows it doesn't #so why bother??#I like Jason but I'll not sit here and pretend he is the most sane and right family member of the batfam just because he has the common #sense to want to end the joker #mf has issues #and at somepoint we SHOULD separate them from batman #because batman can act like he own thst goddamn city but he should NOT be the ultimate authority to everysingle thing and I stand by that #says the man who hasn't walk around there without a limo or a armour in almost thirty years #they're flawed that's the whole beauty of their situation #and dynamic #there's no absolutely right or absolutely wrong in their situation just people trying to cope #jason todd #redhood #bruce wayne #batman #q rants

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forevercloudnine · 2 years

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Hello! You mentioned in a tag that you think Pamela is Bruce's favorite, and it made me wonder. I'd definitely be interested to hear more on that, if you feel like talking about it! Love hearing your thoughts.

💗💗 So a few years ago I was reading the "Gothtopia" arc and was incredibly amused by Bruce casually letting Ivy escape from Arkham to return a favor she'd done him.

Notably, Ivy was the only inmate imprisoned in Arkham at the time, because Scarecrow locked her up for interfering. So Bruce literally helped her escape and then lied to Jim's face about it. I know you recently read Run, Riddler, Run, so here's an amusing comparison: in this story, Ivy is pointedly not reformed, she punches Bruce in the face before helping him, and Bruce still sets her free. Meanwhile, Bruce rewards the assistance of a reformed Edward by punching him in the face and making sure Edward is re-imprisoned.

And then ever since reading Gothtopia, I’ve just been noting how much more tolerant Bruce seems of Ivy than his other villains. Obviously a large element of that is the metatextual factor of Ivy being a female character-- it would clearly Look Really Bad for artists to depict Batman brutalizing a woman with the same sadistic detail with which they depict him assaulting his male villains. (Though ironically the metahuman plant goddess could probably brush off a punch much easier than his variety of entirely human gimmick villains).

There’s also the factor of writers continuously flip-flopping back and forth on whether or not they’re attracted to each other. I kind of thought Pamela’s current commitment to Harley meant this was over, but then Tynion’s run depicted Ivy as holding the same spot in Bruce’s subconscious as Selina and Talia, so I guess it isn’t (though maybe that just means the attraction is one-sided on Bruce’s part now, which would be an amusing twist on Ivy having an unreciprocated crush on him in the 90′s).

But over time I think Bruce’s faith in Ivy has become less about her being a woman (who he may or may not be attracted to), and more sympathy for her motivations. Especially now that she’s transformed from a femme fatale who wants to be the queen of crime to a zealous ecoterrorist who wants to save the planet.

For as much as their interests are entirely alien to each other (Ivy wants to protect nature, often at the cost of human life; Bruce wants to protect human life, often at the cost of... well, human life, actually), their obsessive dedication to doing what they think of as “good” is very similar. Which means Ivy is easier to negotiate with than other villains, since she has goals beyond greed or sadism that Bruce is able to compromise on. Which means it’s easier for Bruce to believe in her capacity for good, in a way that he normally doesn’t bother to believe in his villains, because it’s inevitable that they’ll disappoint him. Which also means that he GIVES Ivy opportunities to disappoint him...

Detective Comics #823 is a huge point of frustration to me because the concept is so fascinating and the execution is just ENDLESS objectification to the point that it almost erases the plot (story of my life trying to read Paul Dini’s writing). But I love the bones of it as a comic where Bruce sympathizes with Pamela, to the point of letting her stay in the Batcave to protect her from an attacker (I can’t even think of another example of Bruce doing this for a villain, outside of Joker in the BTAS comics, and doesn’t that say a lot on its own). But then he discovers evidence of Ivy having recently gruesomely murdered several people, and he is so illogically hurt and betrayed by this-- a woman he knows is a murderer having murdered people-- that he threatens to kill her.

It’s not uncommon for Bruce to threaten his villains with death (I have a whole subfolder on my computer dedicated just to times where he does so with Mr. Freeze), but it’s fascinating to me that Bruce frames the threat here as a question. He wants her to give him a reason to believe in her, even though he has just been faced with undeniable evidence that her view of human life is fundamentally incompatible with his. But Ivy doesn’t give him a reason-- she just calls him on his bluff, which I love.

In the current continuity, Ivy is honestly less Bruce’s supporting character so much as she is Harley’s, but Bruce IS still the main character of DC Detective Comics, so they still interact on occasion. Although ironically, I think the most recent example of my point is actually Ivy’s ex-girlfriend Bella comparing the two of them in Batman Secret Files: The Gardener.

Bella believes that Bruce will ignore her and simply try to imprison Ivy more effectively, which is probably what he would have done normally: Bruce is extremely set in his ways, and his way is to drag any villains he defeats back to Arkham even though he knows Arkham helps no one. The 2021 Detective Comics Annual was all about how Bruce still has to be dragged kicking and screaming into investing in the idea of any criminal being reformed, and resolutely does not consider it his responsibility to help them do so.

Ironically, however, we know that Bruce DID listen to Bella. The issue with their conversation is set in the timeline right before Everybody Loves Ivy, which ends with Bruce deciding to bring Pamela to “Sanctuary,” the therapy center he helped build for superheroes, rather than bringing her back to Arkham. His dialogue with Ivy even uses a lot of Bella’s points here, which is very fun retrospective writing from Tynion. But then Heroes in Crisis happened and... well, Bruce’s attempt to help her instead of hurt her ultimately made everything worse, and has now domino effect led to her current solo series where she is trying to kill off a significant portion of the planet’s human population. (In his defense, Bella’s attempts to fix Ivy also failed and backfired just as spectacularly.) But the fact that Bruce was willing to try is notable and so fascinating to me, since as a character he’s so resistant to setting himself up for disappointment.

#pamela isley #poison ivy #bruce wayne #all of this being said: for about 15 years from the 80's to the 90's their relationship was so terrifying and toxic #that even though ivy was still clearly developing her modern moral compass #bruce's opinion of her was entirely shaped by whether or not he was under her influence at the moment #and so there are a lot of panels i could pull where his narration is pro-ivy or believing ivy can be redeemed #but they're a) not genuine. and b) usually balanced out by him being extremely cold to her out of anger #also i don't think stories where ivy exhibiting a moral compass is a symptom of her crush on batman should count anyway #anyway thank you for the question!!! i had a lot of fun panel hunting for this one

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localgremlinboy · 1 year

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just some more silly rouges headcanons! some long ones because I had some specific ideas

[part 1] [part 2] [part 3] [part 4] [part 5] [part 6]

- Riddler attempts to do a DND group with the other rogues but it's a disaster. Joker's character is just him and his backup character is literally Batman but he's determined he can justify either character's existence in the campaign:

"no you cannot have a batarang, this is in a fantasy world!!"

”But what if I can recreate all the materials within the confines of your dumb world?”

but Twoface and Harvey have separate characters (of course one is lawful good and one is lawful evil) and both are convinced they could just flip a coin to determine a dexterity check and dice are stupid. Scarecrow is either playing on his phone or even worse, he’s intently making choices that’ll just bug Riddler and he is always getting 20s somehow. Ivy might be the only person who's taking this seriously, she has a well thought out chaotic neutral druid character and Harley is her chaotic good warrior girlfriend. Clayface comes but to help Riddler by transforming into monsters and npc characters to "flesh out the world" but he's super overdramatic and is having WAY too much fun. Just when Riddler thinks they'll never wanna try DND again, Harley is like "so same time next week Eddie??" And it becomes a regular thing, and it's a mess every time. Batman catches on and busts into what he thinks is a secret evil villain meeting only to find all the rogues arguing on how to kill an evil wizard cult.. then he gets to stay when he makes a legitimately helpful suggestion (they give him the Batman character sheet Joker made)

- Joker has a fashion Instagram where he posts his outfit of the day & other looks. Riddler commented once that he "didn't think those shoes went with that skirt??", he was immediately blocked because Joker is petty

- Catwoman’s secret guilty pleasure is webkinz, she never got to have one in her childhood and decided to just start stealing cat plushes. Yes sometimes she gets online and plays the minigames, they’re fun!

- Riddler is constantly buying Scarecrow new cell phones. When he doesn't want to be bothered, Jonathan just breaks them or hucks them into the Gotham river. Do not bother him while he plays animal crossing! His henchmen saw him once pick up his ringing phone and drop it into a vat of chemicals, all while playing still on his switch

- Ivy can only style her own hair (she's part plant so technically she can just grow it at will and make it go into ponytails/braids). Harley learned this the hard way when she asked for help putting her hair in ponytails and Ivy almost accidentally poked her eye out

- Twoface & Harvey are both very scared of Tiktok and don’t get it. It’s not that he’s against it, he just doesn’t understand it. There is way too much going on and it's stressful

- Scarecrow is the soul reason Gotham has a year around Halloween store. He held one up and refused to yield until they passed a physical law making it year round

- Every Halloween season, Scarecrow makes a goal to give one of the rogues a scare (not with fear gas, direct stuff. Mostly not deadly, just props and fun stuff). Jonathan saves Riddler last every time and he dreads it. Honestly Riddler ends up scaring himself way more dreading the scare

- Killer croc is constantly having to hop into the sewers to retrieve Twoface’s coin when it rolls into a grate. Several times now, Batman has rolled up to Twoface/Harvey hugging waylon and sobbing thank yous

- Scarecrow is one of those people who is completely numb to gore and injury stuff. Riddler will be like "how'd your heists last night go??" And Jonathan just sends him a picture of his fractured leg he took like right after breaking it

- For the holidays, the rogues actually do get each other gifts (Joker freaking loves Christmas/celebrating in general and throws an all holidays party every December) and it's usually chaotic. While Penguin is the kind of person who bought his gifts in March, Twoface is the type of person who went shopping at 6 am on Christmas Eve because he swore he had more time (he pulls it off but definitely had to fight a mom for the boots he got Harley). Scarecrow and Riddler usually get stuck wrapping everything until four am, most of the time scarecrow passes out in a pile of wrapping paper and ribbon, leaving riddler to handle the rest. Harley makes gifts for her friends, she usually gets incredibly obsessed with a particular medium every year. One year it was personalized charm bracelets, it's also been knitted sweaters, ceramic mugs and bowls, etc. Ivy just gets everyone a visa giftcard because she hates shopping. Except she does get Harley something sweet

- Harley likes to play scratch tickets, not for the money but for the fun, but often doesn't have a coin on her person. One time Twoface caught her trying to use a pair of scissors to scratch a ticket and not being able to stand that sight, actually offered her his coin. She actually won!

- Riddler and Joker have had some nasty sibling style fights before but their worst one happened when Riddler decided to just pretend Joker didn’t exist. Joker is going ape shit about being ignored/trying his hardest to push Eddie’s buttons and he’s just filing his nails like “Do you guys hear anything? I swear the floorboards are creaking..”

- Scarecrow keeps all his old costumes and hangs them up in his hideout as actual scarecrows, It's as creepy as it sounds. Jonathan also enjoys perching and pretending to also be a scarecrow to scare the shit out of people. Riddler may have accidentally given him a black eye the last time he tried to grab him

- Harley has a pair of wireless earbuds she's constantly dropping on capers. They're running away and she has to awkwardly run back to scoop her earbuds up

- Catwoman partnered with Ivy to launch their own eco friendly cruelty free makeup brand. She came to Ivy with the idea after getting a brand offer from an unsavory makeup company. They both launched a “hostile” takeover and rebranded the company into their own business. They have their own personal lines but have also done collab lines with the other villains. Twoface’s line came with two different sets of each product that could mix and match into different looks, Harley’s had a perfume called “cotton candy clown sweat”, Riddler’s had a set of question mark shaped makeup brushes, Clayface had a series of facemasks in his line, and many more great products. No one can even be mad about how successful their company is, the makeup is really good and 99% of the profits go to charity

#dc #joker #poison ivy #pamela isley #riddler #edward nygma #scarecrow #jonathan crane #Harley Quinn #Twoface #harvey dent #clayface #killer croc #waylon jones #basil karlo #silly rogues headcanons #for funsies #Catwoman #Selina Kyle

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narukouzumakinamikaze · 2 years

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Actually Jason has always had levels of empathy and friendship with Batman villains. He had stories as Robin of connecting to and working with several villain like Natalia Knight and Talia. He had a Robin story of empathizing with Two Face even though he killed his dad because he saw the tragedy and humanity in them. 1/

As Red Hood he was trained by villains of all sorts and got along with several as long as they didn't cross his main lines of abusing people or harming children. He literally was a villain and again left certain villains alone if they didn't cross specific lines or get in his way. By 52 he had several villainous kind of friends like Croc, Suzie Sue, and some members of the League of Assassins. By the time he and Harley meet she has already broken up with the Joker and hates him. 2/

Several stories set it up that they first meet in Arkham so they aren't best buds hanging out at first but fellow inmates that must get along. Over time they learn about each other. Considering Jason's protectiveness of victims of abuse in the past do you find it odd that a post Joker Harley who is trying to do good wouldn't be someone he at least tolerates? /end

Empathy isn’t the same as friendship. Again, it’s bad writing for Jason to get along with any of these people, because now he just looks like a hypocrite and a cry baby because he’s only mad a joker because joker killed him. He doesn’t care about the crime that other people commits, Just as long as it wasn’t at his expense.

A side doesn’t absolve Harley of what she’s done, and the fact that Jason can just shrug it off and be friendly because she was abused is terrible writing. He can empathize without being friendly. He can say, sucks you were abused, and that’s it. He doesn’t have to be friends with Harley at all, because at the end of the day, she’s still a psychotic murderer who aided joker in a lot of his schemes and murder.

#Jason todd #batman

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lily-orchard-gossip-blog · 2 years

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Submission: Transcript of Lily's Harley Quinn video, part 3 (last part) *season 3 spoilers

Talk about Harley!

Oh for crying out loud, I don’t like Harley!*gasping sound effects*

Alright alright, I like the potential Harley has as a character. It’s the same way I’ve felt about a lot of characters in the past-

But the problem is, while every other character gets to do cool new things or gets to explore new dimensions of themselves, Harley is the lone exception.

What are the two stories that you always assocciate with Harley Quinn *picture of her being bushed out the window by Joker in TAS, and another picture from Eat, Bang, Kill*

And what do they do with Harley in this show?

*two different pictures showing the same thing*

Starting to see the problem?

Part of why the show is so much fun is that they take all these characters that have been stagnating for years, and do cool and new things with them. Even mr. Freeze, who’s become the literally- thing in the entire world. But Harley goes trough the same story she always goes trough. And once the Joker is out of the picture and she hooks up with Ivy, the show is left with her having literally nothing left to do aside from playing Side kick to Ivy’s plan to creating Eden.

About the only real improvement they’ve made to the character, was getting away from Tara Strong’s impression of Morton Goldman and just get her a new voice actress, who is also the executive producer. And you know, she does a really good job at doing Harley, but this is about the only interesting thing they do with Harley and even calling that interesting is a stretch.

Despite Harley being the titular character, she’s given the least real focus apart from the same two stories that were already pretty much pre written. It’s kind of like how Spider Man adaptations always have to carry the burden of having to adapt uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy’s d- Peter being borderline homeless and poverty stricken, and the first time a Spider Man film tried to get away from that stifling mayer, guess who started complaining.

Are they just not allowed to do anything with Harley or do they just not care? She has a small arca bout wanting to take over Gotham in season two, even axing other supervillains one by one, but she gives that up in favor of being with Ivy! Even as far as season three she’s hung up on trying to stick it to the Joker. Harley just doesn’t do anything new, and that’s the weakest element of the show. Think- comic book adaptations are at their worst when they souless.ly go trough the established notions. It’s why Batman movies sucked for so long, because none of the people making them had any interest in the character outside the edgy darkness brutal man, which has been the meyer the character has been stuck in for quite some time. All the Batman characters are stuck in the stagnating swamp of fanboy expectations, but in this show at least, they managed to go out of it and be fun again, but Harley is still stuck in that swamp. I want them to do something else with her. I think the show should have started with Ivy and Harley already together, because then it would force the writers to have a new idea about the character that is in the fucking title.

Harley as a stand-alone villain never made any sense, she doesn’t have a villanous goal, she doesn’t want anything. She’s always ultimately been a henchman, but her solo act has always lacked motivation. Ivy has reason to be a villain, she has a real goal in mind, she does evil to achieve something, but Harley’s ever been a villain because the people she’s dating have been villains. Hell, she actually had a conventional job she was actually good at, but she threw it away because of bog fangirl biastophilic, and that’s a part of her character that never really went away. It would be interesting to unpack, I mean, she basically jumps from one supervillain that treated her like shit, to one that just happens to not. In season one she joined the League of Doom just to be treaded seriously as a villain which she never is and ultimately gives up on. After that, not much, at the end of season three even she has a crisis over if she’s even evil or not, but in the end all she ever just does is fill in for Batman, while he’s in prison, once again playing second fiddle to other people. Even ion Eat Bang Kill was more focused on Ivy than Harley, this is a problem company wide, even when they bring in good writers *shows picture of Tee Franklin*, Harley’s just stuck in the same place.

So far she’s been moving around two different storylines, not really committing to anything and ultimately ending up right back to where her character started as, as the henchwoman toa villain slash Batgirl, who’s actually carrying some fucking cards.

And i wouldn’t mind that if they would just stick to it. I don’t object to a character stepping back and deciding their role is just going to be Bong, Goons, Kiss Wife, heck, I’ve even written characters like that (A/N: she didn’t have any visuals fort his part, so I don’t know who she’s talking about).

Being a supporting character isn’t bad, but I know for a fact that the next time we see Harley after this shins end, will hit the reset, and she will go trough the exact character arc all over again, because this is what comic book adaptations are now. Constantly re-threating the same story and never bothering to do anything else and not committing to anything for very long.

The MCU tried to do something new with Peter Parke, getting away from the established formula and asshole fanboys bitched and moaned incessantly, because he wasn’t street anymore, to the point where they hit the reset and put him right in the misery porn that Peter’s been stuck in for a long time, and overall the character has been poorer for it. He lost his identity and became just another Spider Man fort he pile.

I don’t know how to fix it without committing to something. If you want Harley to be Ivy’s supporting character, fine, but don’t hit the reset button just to do it again later on. But it’s not fine to, every time they start over, pretend that it's a bold new step fort he character. That’s why DC properties are so fucking boring. They’re just recycling the same few interpretation of the same characters that are kind of bad. Like, Batman is an interesting character, but you wouldn’t know that if you only watched the theatrical films, because the theatrical film are pulling only from the same four comic books, that also happen to be the edgiest, and two of them are fucking satires in the first place.

+like, fuck off Joker, you are not a victim- and you get films that completely miss the point of them, because they just wanted to write edgelord fanfiction. And these one dimensional versions of these characters are something the fanbase not only tolerates, but applauses.

There is this scene from Justice League Unlimited that people pass around as an example of what Batman should be like. You probably seen it, it’s the scene where Batman comforts Ace as she’s dying. It’s the scene every person complaining about modern Batman cites, but you ever noticed that they only ever cite this one scene? It’s because it’s really hard to find Batman moments like this. They don’t let him be that way very much, because the fanbase only wants psycho thug Batman. They’re the same group of people who wants cartoons to be grittier and more adult, but Warner Brothers made the critical mistake of actually listening to these fucking clowns.

That’s where we are with Harley, because part of the reason why her only stories are the Jokers girlfriend, or abuse victim, or Ivy’s girlfriend, is because by and large, the audience only wants those thre stories. And the times when they try something different, the audience turns their nose immediately. As it stands, Harley is DC’s own banshee queen, she’s stuck in this rut with a fanbase that, fort he most part, doesn’t want her to move anywhere, and the potential the character has is squandered by everybody, creator and fan alike.

Harley Quinn is a great show, but it’s not because of Harley herself. Season one has Harley dealing with who she is, and by the end of season three she still hasn’t answered that question. The romance is really good, and all the other characters are really good, but Harleys character arc cist decidedly undercooked.

Is that everything? I think that’s everything. Everything that matters anyway.

Oh yeah, uh, Mikay has a video on the Eat, Bank, Kill comics, and Tee Franklin’s other comic Bingo Love. You should go watch them.

You know she’s friends with Tee Franklin? That’s wild. My wife is so fucking cool, and all their friends are fucking cool. How did I do that? How did I land such a absolutely gorgeous, talented, successful woman? How did I do that? The partner I had before her was a walking nightmare on sticks, that tortured me for fun! How did I – wait am I Harley?

#submission #spoilers #harley quinn season 3 spoilers

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poisonousquinzel · 2 years

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"Harley Quinn is a criminal, a villain!!! she needs to pay for her crimes! she can't just have a redemption arc without being punished for her misdeeds and murders!"

oh so are we just forgetting the bargaining chip that the government/Waller uses for the Suicide Squad? :)

Cause news flash, Harley has done her time.

She's served her sentence in Belle Reve prison.

She worked off her years by going on actual suicidal missions for years.

She. Did. Her. Time.

And She's Cleared Her Record.

Suicide Squad: Blaze #1

“You’ve been selected for a special task. I know you’ve all served on Suicide Squads before, so--”

“So you can skip the details, bosslady-- we know the score. Go out there, face certain death, coupla creepy laughs, maybe a dance number-”

“In return for which state-sponsored violence we gain access to certain off-list privileges-- and a bloody massive reduction in our sentences.”

Suicide Squad: Blaze #2

“You are sitting among the Suicide Squad. They are not nice people. They’re not here for your emotional support. They’re here because--should you feel a little hesitant about my polite requests?--

--They will murder you before you’ve finished saying “No.” For this I will reward them handsomely.”

Harley Quinn (2021 - ) #1

“It’s time I make amends for everythin’ I did when... Back before...

Well, you know.

After The Joker War... I can’t help but feel responsible. I’ve hurt this city. Enabled that clown prince of ***** for a long time.

My records are officially clean thanks to that Suicide Squad business, but I figure I got a lot to make up for.”

And a redemption arc isn't always going to look like Zuko's arc in the end of Avatar: The Last Airbender.

We need to stop holding every single "redemption" arc to that standard alone because characters aren't all the same, and frankly, at this point, it's getting really damn frustrating.

Character can be, and are, nuanced, multilayered people that come from vastly different circumstances & backgrounds, various forms of medias, and have differing levels of trauma that have led to their criminal actions.

They have different writers and creative teams, and depending on the company in change, those writers may or may not be equipped to probably handle the more sensitive and serious aspects of that character.

And some of them come from (or have later appeared in) media types that have a much, much higher rating than Avatar did. The creators are free to go to more extreme levels with that trauma and showing the audience the full extent of things like domestic abuse.

But in the end redemption is when the person themselves wants to change and realizes the wrongs they've committed. It's when they want to make amends and atone for their actions.

It doesn't necessarily mean the world forgives them. A redemption arc isn’t earned when the in universe world decides to forgive that character.

It means they've decided to try. They're putting in effort. They're putting that part of their life behind them and they're trying to be a better person.

They’re trying to change for the better.

Not all redemption arcs are clean and easy. And not of all them only have to make amends for a handful of wrongdoings.

But it is in the very core of her character to feel guilt and remorse once she’s free from The Joker’s manipulation and love bombing.

This is still a redemption arc because she is fundamentally trying to be a better person and is putting in the effort. And it is an arc that’s been building for almost 30 years.

It was her saying No when that voice is telling her

"You're a villain, remember? Time to nasty up and act like one."

Trying to convince her to leave one of her teammates behind to succumb to the effects of the Joker Toxin invading their system.

Suicide Squad (2016 - ) #4

She's immune to the toxin. She hears and sees him, just like she hears and sees Harleen, which makes it all the more powerful that she's working through fighting against those urges when she's got a literal devil manifested in front of her encouraging said villainous urges.

And later, it's taking accountability when confronted by a victim who was wrong by her and Joker. Going so far that she fully ready to let herself die at the hands of said victim to right that wrong.

Batman (2016) #105

“I wanted to be strong, and he was able to manipulate me and control me and make me feel loved enough that I was willing to help him do really terrible things. Because I wanted to feel strong too.

I wanted to be the one with all the power. I wanted to be the one people were afraid of.

And now... I’m gonna be dealing with the consequences of that for my entire life. I’m always going to be Harley Quinn. And I’m trying my damnedest to make the most of it.

I’m gonna try to save as many people as I tried to hurt, back in the day. I want to be a better version of me.

But if you want to kill me, you can. I deserve it.”

“Harley...”

“Stand back, Bats. It’s the kid’s choice.”

Shadow War Zone (2022 - ) #1

“...And, most shocking of all, her recent encounter with Hugo Strange indicates she genuinely wants to make amends for her past.”

It's the dozens of little, important moments over the years that's shown she's been developing, she's been growing.

We’re just seeing it come full circle now.

And that's a fucking good thing.

She’s saving people, she’s helping people in multiple ways. She’s making more friends, she runs a support group for people like her and Kevin, putting her therapist skills to use.

This is good for her. She’s healing.

And that’s what we want from characters because they’re nuanced, multilayered creations that shine best when they’re not boxed into a one dimensional Bad Guy trope.

#harley quinn #harleen quinzel #dc comics #tw blood #tw clown boy #tw abuse mention #just to be safe

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nightcolorz · 3 years

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Poorly describing my versions of the Gotham rogues:

Joker: “yolo” in its most dangerous form, def is writing a slow burn enemies to loves fic about him and Batman. Gay and homophobic 💯 The other rogues don’t invite him to pride celebrations anymore cause he’ll keep calling people slurs “as a joke”. Him and Edward have longterm beef, like schoolgirl levels of petty drama.

Harley Quinn: would describe herself as a “girlboss” unironically while committing heinous crimes. tweeted “clowns aren’t funny” after breaking up with Joker (ended up causing a huge scandal). The OG “I can fix him” girl. Is sort of the rogues free underground therapist (god knows they need it) cause they can’t get professional help without being sent to Arkham.

Poison Ivy: Breaking News: Cottagecore lesbian commits mass murder cause her plant wilted. She’s what republicans think environmentalists are. Would get in a fist fight with that vegan teacher cause “plants have feelings too”. Has beef with most of the male rogues, supports ‘kill all men’ without realizing it’s a joke (she prefers ‘kill all humans’ but figured she had to downgrade because the Gotham city sirens are humans technically).

Cat Woman: “OH NO! It appears I’ve gotten stuck backwards in the bank vault step-Bat 😏😏😏😏😏😏, looks like I’m not stealing any more diamonds today 😰😩”. Mad respect for Selina, she just wants diamonds and bat dick, no tragic backstory or complex motivations needed. I personally like to headcanon her as wearing a straight up cat costume (ears and a tail like a true furry) cause it’s way funnier to imagine a sophisticated rich woman dressing up as a cat to steal shit than whatever bullshit DCs up to these days. Trans catgirl supremacy 💎👍

Scarecrow: That one guy who gets angry at people because “Halloween costumes are meant to be scary 🤬😡😑😒”. Doesn’t even attempt to express emotions, is the human embodiement of this emoji: 😐. His presence is more jarring than threatening, his intimidation levels are somehow underwhelming and overwhelming at the same time. The other rogues have collectively decided that he’s asexual under no assumption other than that they don’t want to imagine Jonathan having sex. Overtime Jonathan has become basically fearless (he smokes his own fear gas like vape just to feel something). Jonathan and Harley became good friends when they both worked in Arkham, their dynamic is surprisingly wholesome.

The Riddler: Didn’t get hugged enough as a child and is now making it everyone’s problem. Would hold a bank hostage to show Batman his third grade spelling bee medal. Is the only autistic rogue that gets accommodations in Arkham because he won’t stop bugging the guards. FTM trans ofc (his names Edward Nygma for Christ's sake). He ran away from home at seventeen and faked his own death (his deadname is legally dead lmao). Uses the terms “alpha, beta, and omega male” unironically.

Two Face: “Yeah, I mean, I didn’t wanna blow up the orphanage either, but Y’know the coin said-” The other rogues talk to Harvey as if he’s constantly at his breaking point, which is half true. Harv is a stone cold mf, he’s the rock that’s holding Two Face together tbh. Edward calls Harvey and Harv Jekyll and Hyde cause he’s that original. All the rogues have at least a sneaking suspicion that Bruce Wayne is batman and use Harvey as their little primary source (being ex besties and everything), until they find out Selina and Bruce are a thing of course. No matter how much evidence he’s faced with Harvey will never accept Bruce Wayne is batmam, he’s not ready to consider that one of the only positive people in his life has been duking it out with him this whole time.

Penguin: He’s the rest of the rogues chill gay gangster uncle I don’t make the rules. The iceberg lounge is like the Batman villain equivalent of The Central Perk from friends (aka: its their default place to hangout). Oswald always makes a fuss about them not making reservations ahead of them but at this point it’s just performative. Everyone’s 99% sure Oswald and Edward fucked at some point (Edward always makes a show of flustering Oswald when he needs a loan). Ossie always takes care of the others belongings when they’re in Arkham (he has a special place in his heart for Jonathan‘s crows).

The Mad Hatter: I love Jervis lmao he just really likes Alice in Wonderland and that’s a valid ass villain motivation 👍. One of the smartest rogues but doesn’t get enough credit because of how childish he is. He dresses in kids clothes, not just because he wants to but because he’s small af and can’t fit in shit. In public while the rogues are undercover Jervis usually wears a beanie or a baseball cap (he’d get spotted instantly if he wore his usual, but on bad days Jervis can’t bear to be without a hat). Jonathan and Jervis play chess a lot together in Arkham, and frequently engage in intellectual discussion, Edward tends to be a piss baby when Jon encourages him to do the same, he’s not ready to accept the reality that Jervis can match his intelligence.

Killer Croc: Waylon has a surprising amount in common with Jonathan, they share southern solidarity. He doesn’t travel out of the sewer often so the rogues will occasionally come to visit Waylon there (Edward always makes sure to complain loudly about the smell). Will show immense affection and loyalty to anyone who treats him as human (poor guy just needs a friend ☹️).

Mr Freeze: Literally just dead inside, someone give this poor bastard a hug. Victor stands as the most awkward rogue, he‘s sorta like the odd one out. The other rogues don’t interact with him that often because he’s sort of a party pooper. He’s the straight friend on thin ice, haha get it. Mr Freeze is my sisters favorite Batman villain because she thought the ice puns were funny in Batman in Robin, little does she know I’m embarrassing myself on tumblr in her glory.

Music Meister: So many of the Gotham rogues have horrible childhood trauma and Music Meister is just like “people bullied me for being a theater kid 😩😭💔😔”. In all honesty he’s iconic, in my au universe thingy I have him join the dork squad latter on and he sticks out like a sore thumb for a bit. I feel like him and Jervis would really hit it off though (mind control buddies, ha), although Jervis would always get him to sing Alice in Wonderland songs. In Arkham they have him wear a dog collar thingy and zap him when he sings, he gets bullied for that lol. anyways I’m sure I could make more of these, but it’s 2:20 am and my mind went blank. If y’all liked this I could always put more au headcanons out (I have A LOT)

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analviel · 3 years

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Idea: ReverseRobins!Damian wakes up in the body of canon!Damian.

Details:

>In both worlds, Tim is Red Robin and Jason is Red Hood.

>Tim in Reverse Robins don't kill people, he maims them, with the belief that without limbs, they're unable to hurt people and can focus on regaining their sanity that way (he died by killing himself after being turned into Joker Jr). "They can regain their minds without their limbs. Especially without their limbs."

>And unlike Lazarus!Jason, his main emotions isn't anger, but apathy. Doesn't care for anything that isn't his Mission. If you get in his way is the only time he'd give you attention.

>Rr Jason took on the name of the Red Hood because it won't be traced back to the Bats (same reason canon!Tim wore Red Robin).

>Damian's reaction to Tim's death hadn't been to retreat, but to lash out. It was a... very bloody few months for Gotham and Bludhaven.

>Rr Tim never went out of his way to try to kill Rr Jason because he, just, doesn't care. But Jason tried to stop him once from brutally maiming someone and the consequences was... bloody, to say the least.

>Rr Tim kind of totally blackmailed Bruce into being his official guardian after both his parents died in Haiti (because Bruce wasn't there to slap the poison from Jack).

>Rr Damian finds it very weird that Jon is younger than him here.

>Because there were already other kid fighters before Rr Tim entered the picture, and he never expressed interest in specializing in combat, Rr Tim had been the sort of Oracle of the Rr Bats, doing most of what Alfred does in the cave so the old butler can focus more on maintaining the manor and also just lightening his burden. He only has Robin sometimes and is mostly trained for mid to long range (because unlike Damian, Steph, and Duke, he didn't come with street fighting experience and since he never pushed, Bruce was fine letting his sort of son do his thing in the background, primarily trained in dodging -Not that it helped him with Harley's mallet, Damian bitterly thinks).

>When ReverseR Tim came back from the League though, he knew how to fight close combat (a Chinese war sword I think is the name of the weapon I'm thinking) which is the main reason the Bats didn't recognize him immediately.

>ReverseR Stephanie was paralyzed and started handling the comms and the medical stuff. She's a med-student but probably has more know how than doctors twice her age. She was Batgirl first then became Spoiler when she pass it on to Cass. Because "Spoiler alert, there's a guy coming up to your ten and Penguin is having his unboxing of some sick weapons".

>Jealousy did get in the way of Rr Damian and Tim's relationship but it had gotten better. The last time they saw each other before Tim was ambushed by the New villain Harley Quinn on the way back home, Damian had thrown him out, tired of people trying to make him feel better after something happened to Jon. (I'm tempted to deage Jon as his canon was aged up.....).

>Rr Jason uses guns and it's allowed because his big brother is Damian.

>Just as Dick set the tone for the following Robins, Damian did the same for his Robin (Hoods). Just as Thirteen Jason had been a much happy and peppy kid than Nineteen year old Dick Grayson, Thirteen Tim is much more like Bruce than Nineteen Damian, so the friction mostly came from there. Also Ra's liked Tim a bit too much so there's also that....

>Rr Damian is absolutely the aloof helicopter parent. Which does sound contradictory, but he makes it work. Rr Damian and Rr Jason have their own version of Dick and Tim's relationship closeness. (The flaw in this is that he's like Bruce in that... if he believes its good for you, he can convince himself he doesn't need to get your consent. He knows better.)

>Rr Jason and Cass are very close but disagree quite a lot. You can always find them bickering. From who's the older one to who gets shotgun in the Batmobile, to things like morals and which classics actually deserve to be burned.

>Talia tossed Jason in the Lazarus but Rr Tim had been healed by Ra's.

>Rr Tim had been tortured same amount of time as Tim Todd, and he also had that chip. Only difference, he'd also been programmed into following Joker's orders to the letter. "Kill him JJ!!" "No! Tim, don't be a killer."

Tim can't kill Bruce. He also can't kill Joker.

There were only three 'hims' in that room.

"Kill him JJ!"

The only reason I want Damian to be there at the scene, like, just a few seconds late, is because I want flashbacks. Then again, he can also just watch the same recording Bruce probably tortures himself by watching too.

>Pre-Jason death was Bruce, Alfred, Dick, and Barbie. Pre-RrTim death was Bruce, Alfred, Damian, Duke, Cass, Steph.

>Young Justice happened too but Tim just had Superboy and Impulse wear cameras and comms. Tho Tim still met Bart personally in civilian. And steadily drawn out eventually for him to appear in person more.

>Not really Bat related, but Kon has a much better reception with Jon excited for a baby brother.

>Rr Dick is A.DO.RA.BLE. And kept far, far away from Rr Tim.

>Rr Barbara is the third Batgirl after Cass becomes Black Bat and Jason is Red Hood.

>During the Bruce is dead (in the Reverse Robins-verse), there is no Battle of the Cowl (duh, no matter what world Tim still wouldn't seek it out without sound and desperate reasons and Damian had literally spent his whole life assurinb his stake on it)(it still happened in canon-verse tho), but I don't know if I want RR!Damian to Possess canon!Damian before, after, or during it. They fully believe that Rr Bruce is dead until Rr Jason's path cross with Rr Tim and Tim.... hmmm, he genuinely doesn't care, so I wonder how and why he's going to drop a hint. This time, Tim knows because he'd seen some ancient records in the League but Tim didn't really pursue that. He wants something from Jason in exchange, and after that hint, Jason then goes on his trip around the world for proof he barely believes is there but can't help but hope. He does not tell Damian because he's not going to give the blood son possible false hope. And also I'm not sure the difference in how Damian would've handled the Robin debacle since Dick wouldn't take it from his big brother, but Kid Dick is a very angry vengeful little shit that really wants to go kill Tony Zucco so.... Jason was probably guilted/forced into passing it on for the kid's sake and there's just a tiny, tiny bit of bitterness.

>And i also want a scene where canon!Tim and Rr!Jason share a commiserating look after having to deal with this shitshow of a family and their respective predecessors' shit.

To elaborate: Timeline is further along in canon. So Reverse Robins are still around dead/lost!Bruce while canon!verse is sometime after they've retrieved Bruce and Dick is out of the Cowl.

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qluliss-rabbit · 2 years

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Maybe it’s just me, but Catwoman is the least compelling character in Batman’s rogues gallery

When it comes to villains of the DC Universe (specifically, the villains of Gotham because if I talk about anyone else, I’ll be here all day), there’s been the tendency to try to evolve their character by giving them an actual goal and a purpose because in hindsight, people recognize that a lot of the old villains were created more or less for a specific gimmick: Penguin as a stocky mob boss in a tux, Two-Face as a literal split-personality of justice and brutality, and Joker, Scarecrow and Riddler as... well, exactly themselves. Understanding that, they were all able to grow out of that with not only compelling backstories, but events that we see in modern iterations that help give them depth. - Penguin, being forced to make his own way by either having his family screwed by the Waynes or coming from nothing in the hopes of grasping the aesthetics of the higher life. - Two-Face, being Bruce’s friend and a good man with hopes of stopping the corruption in Gotham only to be consumed by it when the city betrayed him. - Joker, becoming the nihilistic jester in realizing how little the values society propagates are actually worth when placed in a situation that undoes their supposed character on one unlucky day. - And then Catwoman, being a literal “cat burglar”... and that’s it. Don’t get me wrong, people have tried to make her interesting (and by interesting, I mean hot and more sophisticated as far as tools), but she doesn’t really have that much inherent potential going for her outside of being a dangerous love interest for Bruce. Sure, in some iterations she’s protective of her friends and she generally uses her skills to take advantage of and rob the rich and corrupt figures of Gotham, but otherwise she really doesn’t have any principles to speak of other than being a guardian for strays. Meanwhile, you have equally goofy and gimmick-driven girl-villains like Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy, who while arguably one-note in their backstories as manipulated lady-Joker and ecoterrorist respectively, at least were able to evolve past their goofiness: Harley escaped from being a domestic abuse victim by rebelling against her abuser and taking up a new look, and Ivy realized that the villains are equally if not more environmentally destructive than the rest of those in power because unlike Bruce, they care even less about collateral damage. I can respect the new movie for trying to not make Catwoman’s character forgettable or one-purposed with the backstory they write in for her and the events of the movie as they happen for her, but for me the way that the Riddler’s character was handled blows her out of the water. The Riddler by far is the absolute definition of “gimmick villain,” and it’s shown throughout most of his incarnations with nothing to present for his personality other than elaborate traps and an ego to match... and somehow the movie actually made it work. The movie makes his character work because instead of having him be your average angry Reddit incel, he was built into a darkweb sociopath who uses the full potential of the gimmick at hand for him, and from there he’s made at least reasonably compelling with good writing to boost his personality. In the same way, I can’t help but feel like the movie presents Catwoman at her full potential and it comes with a realization that there’s just not all that much there.

#batman #the batman #batman 2022 #dc #hot take #please tell me i'm wrong

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longitudinalwaveme · 3 years

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DC Comics’ Portrayal of Mental Illness

As you can probably ascertain from the general contents of this blog, I am a huge fan of DC comics (and, more specifically, of the Flash). I am also a psychology major who is on the autism spectrum and has struggled with Social Anxiety Disorder and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. As such, I have a...complicated relationship with comic books that discuss mental illness.

Of course, of all the comics that deal with mental illness, Batman is undoubtedly the most prominent, and, as such, is the easiest target for criticism. The more a comic book talks about mental illness, the more opportunities it has to get stuff wrong. Since there are literally thousands of Batman comics out there and I don’t have the time to research them all, I will be using a 2001 Batman guidebook to give you a few examples of the things that it gets wrong about mental health (and psychology in general).

To start, let’s talk about Arkham Asylum. Not only is its name anachronistic (virtually no mental heath facilities are called asylums anymore), but its depiction usually is as well: even a psychiatric hospital that doubled as a penal facility probably would not be located in an old Gothic-looking building that looks like it came straight out of a horror movie. It’s also worth noting that Arkham Asylum didn’t exist in the Batman mythos prior to 1974, and that originally, Two-Face and the Joker were the only two villains who went there. Prior to that point, everyone, even the Joker, just went to prison when they were caught (which, as we shall see, is actually probably more accurate for everyone except maaaybe modern Two-Face and the Mad Hatter). My suspicion is that it was introduced to capitalize on the popularity of the 1962 novel (and, once it was released, the 1975 movie) One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, which was about a psychiatric institution, but there were probably other factors involved, such as the popularity of works by H.P. Lovecraft (which is where the name Arkham came from). Whatever the reason, though, Arkham Asylum is really only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the misrepresentation of mental illness and mental health in Batman fiction.

The introduction of Arkham Asylum led, increasingly, to the idea that all Batman villains were mentally ill, which, in turn, led to some...um....very inaccurate portrayals and depictions of what mental illness is and how it works.

For example, the 2001 guidebook I am using incorrectly describes the Joker as “certifiably psychotic”. He’s not. While there are individual exceptions (we are talking about comic books, after all), in most appearances, the Joker is not psychotic. He has no apparent hallucinations and does not seem to display signs of delusions, either. He is not out of touch with reality in any meaningful way, he’s just horrifically violent. Describing him as “certifiably psychopathic” would have been much more appropriate (although you can’t technically diagnose someone with psychopathy; the condition he would be diagnosed with would be Antisocial Personality Disorder).

In the same book, Two-Face is described as “schizoid” and “schizophrenic”, both of which are not even remotely correct. What the modern Two-Face is supposed to suffer from is Dissociative Identity Disorder (what used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder), although it’s not always portrayed terribly accurately. Schizoid Personality Disorder is not DID, and it’s not Schizophrenia, either; it’s a personality disorder characterized by a lack of interest in social relationships-basically people who are extreme loners. Similarly, Schizophrenia is not DID. While it is hypothetically possible for the two conditions to be comorbid, they are not at all the same thing. Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder characterized by delusions and hallucinations, which Two-Face almost never displays in fiction. DID is a dissociative disorder. Most people with DID do not experience delusions or hallucinations; their condition is typified by the presence of more than one personality and is thought to usually only occur as a reaction to severe childhood trauma. (Credit where credit is due: modern Two-Face is correctly shown as having experienced trauma as a child.) The fact that the term schizophrenia literally translates into “split mind” is probably the source of some of this confusion, but with schizophrenia, the split is between the mind and reality, not between the mind and itself.

Also from this guidebook, the Riddler is, confusingly, described as having “an obsessive-compulsive desire for attention”, which, from a psychological perspective, is pretty much nonsense. Desire for attention is one thing; obsessive-compulsive disorder is another. The “obsessions” in OCD refer to intrusive, recurring thoughts, not to something that a person strongly desires and spends a lot of time pursuing. Additionally, the Riddler is described as “pondering the unsolvable riddle of his own psychosis”, which is not accurate. The Riddler consistently displays signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and less consistently displays signs of OCD, but neither one of these conditions is a psychotic disorder, as neither involves hallucinations or delusions. When the Riddler says he’s not psychotic, and that he’s perfectly sane, he’s completely right on both counts. He’s never displayed any evidence of a break from reality, so he’s not psychotic, and he’s almost always aware that what he’s doing is a crime, so he’s not insane, either. In fact, with the possible exceptions of the Mad Hatter, Man-Bat, and Two-Face, none of the Batman villains are insane, since they are all aware that what they’re doing is illegal when they do it.

What makes the earlier mistakes in this particular guidebook even more mystifying to me is the fact that their description of Scarecrow, and, more impressively yet, Scarecrow’s fear toxin, is pretty much accurate. They don’t call him psychotic or label him with conditions he doesn’t have and they accurately identify his on-again off-again phobia of bats (Chiropteraphobia). It also describes his fear gas thusly: “a toxic mix of adreno-cortical secretions and strong hallucinogens...it prompts neuromuscular spasms, cardiac arrhythmia, and panic attacks”. This is an astonishingly accurate description of what his fear toxin would need to be made of and what it does to his victims’ bodies. I don’t know who wrote this section, but they deserve some serious credit for doing their homework! (It makes no sense to put the Scarecrow in Arkham. Not only is he neither psychotic nor insane, but putting an evil ex-psychologist in a psychiatric institution is a REALLY bad idea, as he has the know-how to easily manipulate both the doctors and the patients.)

Also from the 2001 Guidebook: The Ventriloquist is described as having multiple personalities, and is NOT described as schizophrenic or schizoid. While the term Multiple Personality Disorder is no longer used by psychologists for diagnosis, it is at least describing the same condition as DID. Modern Firefly is described as a pyromaniac; this is accurate from what I know of the character. Mr. Zsasz is described as a “sociopath”; again, this is mostly accurate.

I also decided to use a few other DC guidebooks and see if there were any other egregious mistakes:

2015 Guidebook:

Haha, “Lenny Snart”. (That has nothing to do with mental illness, I just thought it was funny.)

Dr. Polaris is described as suffering from “a split personality disorder”; they mean DID. It’s also worth noting that most people with DID do not have a “good” alter and an “evil” alter; having DID does not make you Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

The Joker is described as “crazy” and “insane”; while the former is up for debate, I can say with confidence that the Joker meets no real-world definition of insanity that I know about.

Riddler is not described as insane, yay!

Two-Face is described as having Multiple Personality Disorder; this should be DID but is otherwise broadly correct. That being said, the idea that getting acid thrown in your face would cause you to develop a split personality, as this book seems to imply, is unlikely. DID doesn’t develop that suddenly.

2016 Guidebook:

While Doctor Polaris may very well have a personality disorder, the emergence of a second personality would indicate the development of DID, not a personality disorder. An adult man couldn’t “develop’ a personality disorder anyway; they’re developed in childhood and are usually lifelong afflictions.

Harley Quinn is a weird case; to call her psychotic isn’t completely inaccurate, as she has displayed signs of hallucinations and delusions in the past. That being said, the way her condition is depicted is inconsistent and confusing, and doesn’t seem to line up perfectly with any actual real-world condition.

Modern Heat Wave is absolutely a pyromaniac; Johns in particular was surprisingly good at writing a realistic case of the condition.

The Joker is not insane. Neither is the modern Joker’s daughter. Both understand what they’re doing is wrong.

Lex Luthor is indeed a sociopath, as is the New 52 version of Mr. Freeze (BTAS Freeze is not).

Two-Face’s condition should be described as DID, not MPD; otherwise things are about as accurate as one can expect from Two-Face.

2008 Guidebook:

Calling Abra Kadabra narcissistic is accurate.

The Black Manta autism thing is icky on multiple levels. Ewww.

The first Cheetah probably would not have suddenly developed a second personality as an adult.

Dr. Polaris. You know the drill. Split personality should be DID. A “good” and “evil” alter are pretty unlikely. Usually DID would show up before adulthood.

Firefly and Heat Wave do both seem to have pyromania. It’s also accurate to describe Heat Wave as cryophobic.

The Joker cannot be “certifiably crazed”; crazed is not an official psychiatric term. And again, he isn’t insane, so he shouldn’t be in Arkham.

Killer Croc has never displayed any noticeable signs of psychosis.

Magenta having DID is actually more realistic than most of the other characters I’ve talked about; she’s got the necessary childhood trauma and her alters developed when she was still quite young. Furthermore, her more violent alter isn’t manically evil.

Whoever wrote the Scarecrow piece in the 2001 Batman Guidebook must’ve also helped to write this one, since the shockingly-accurate fear gas description is the same.

Professor Strange is not insane in the legal sense of the word.

Arnold Wesker has DID; MPD is the condition’s original name but is no longer used by professional psychologists.

Zoom (Hunter Zolomon, not Eobard)... I think there’s an argument to be made that Zolomon actually is psychotic. While he’s never displayed hallucinations, he is clearly delusional in the most literal sense and does seem to have lost touch with reality. As such, this book is not wholly inaccurate in calling him psychotic.

You get the idea....

Looking specifically at the Flash, things improve slightly simply because writers who don’t understand psychology aren’t constantly talking about it. That being said, that doesn’t mean it never gets brought up.

Golden Glider was intended to receive a psychiatric evaluation in the late 1970s. It’s interesting that she actually protested this, pointing out that the male criminals never received psychological evaluations (and indeed, they always went to prison rather than to an institution). She was indeed motivated by something other than profit, and I can understand why they wanted to have her evaluated given her lack of earlier criminal activity, but I don’t know if she was actually mentally ill per se...and she definitely wasn’t insane.

In the early 1980s during the twilight hours of Barry Allen’s first run on the Flash, it seemed that the writers were trying to take a page out of Batman’s book by arguing that Barry’s costumed criminals were insane (even though they usually didn’t display any behavior that would indicate this). As such, Barry stated to imply that his Rogues were mentally ill in some fashion despite the fact that their behavior really hadn’t changed appreciably since their earliest appearances. That being said, the Pied Piper did appear to suffer some sort of nervous breakdown during the “Trial of the Flash” arc; what exactly this was is difficult to explain, since we didn’t get to see a whole lot of him after this point, but he did go to an actual psychiatric hospital (that was referred to as such rather than being called an asylum) and he did recover, relapsed, then recovered again, making this one of the more accurate portrayals of how mental illness works despite the limited information we have about his actual condition. They even showed him slowly deteriorating over a period of time before the actual collapse!

Big Sir, who made his debut in the same storyline, was rather more poorly handled....but at least he was explicitly manipulated into villainy rather than becoming evil simply because of his condition.

Wally West went to therapy early in his run; given the context I’d say it was reasonable that he was suffering from both anxiety and depression (his uncle had just died and he was really struggling to fill his shoes as the new Flash). Going to therapy did actually help him, which was nice to see, and his therapist did not become evil, which was also nice to see. (I’m not going to talk about Heroes in Crisis, as I prefer to pretend that that never happened.) Yay for protagonists discussing their mental health problems in productive ways!

In the early-to-mid 1990s, Mark Waid wrote a story in which Lisa stated that she’d faked insanity in order to be sent to a psychiatric hospital rather than to prison, but the story seemed to be implying that she was actually insane. Not only is successfully being declared not guilty by reason of insanity incredibly difficult, but Lisa displayed no signs of not recognizing that her behavior was wrong, so she wasn’t insane. She was, however, displaying strong signs of paranoia, which could perhaps be attributed to a paranoid delusion of some sort. It’s especailly weird since this was never really a characteristic of hers before or since, and it just kind of came out of nowhere.

The Trickster (specifically the first one, James Jesse) is often mistakenly believed to be mentally ill by casual fans. While he is indeed mentally ill, possibly even psychotic, in the DCAU, and he’s a remorseless psychopath in both live-action Flash shows, in the comics themselves he displays no real signs of mental illness. That being said, I LOVE the interactions between DCAU Wally and DCAU Trickster. They’re made of adorable.

The Pied Piper went through a second bout of mental problems in the mid-to-late 2000s, being tricked into believing that he’d murdered his parents, going to prison, being beaten regularly by the warden, escaping from prison, going through the stress of fighting in the Rogue War, having his mind messed with by the Top, accidentally becoming involved in the murder of Bart Allen (another thing I like to pretend never happened), having to go on the run, watching the Trickster get shot in front of him, having to drag his corpse around a desert, almost dying, getting transported to Apocalypse, blowing it up with Queen music, and then being left basically all alone. He really went through a trauma conga line, so it’s not surprising that he was starting to display some odd behavior. Poor guy probably had PTSD.

And then there’s the Top. Beyond the speculation of @gorogues that he’s on the autism spectrum (a theory I find to be quite persuasive), I also think it’s likely that he suffers from another mental illness (most likely bipolar I disorder, also as suggested by @gorogues). He was clearly mentally ill for most of Geoff Johns’ run, and his behavior in his very first appearance was decidedly odd as well. Intense mania and depression can sometimes induce psychosis (as we seemed to see during Geoff Johns’ run), and his “threatening to blow up half the world to become its ruler while I’m somehow safe on the other side of the planet” plan from his first appearance, which he clearly expected to work perfectly, is so overconfident and over-the-top that it fits well as a particularly exaggerated manic episode. While it’s not conclusive by any means, I think it’s a distinct possibility.

#dc comics #mental illness #flash comics #batman comics #flash rogues

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anunvalidcritic · 3 years

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Justice League: Snyder Cut

(DISCLAIMER: MY OPINION IS MY OWN AND CAN BE DEEMED INVALID TO THOSE WHO DON’T CARE FOR IT.)

Oh, the time has come my friends! Now, I originally did a review on Batman V.S. Superman and I didn’t care for it, so I deleted it. But before I start, I would like y’all to read this statement made by @verified-villain-fxcker - You can click HERE to read it. As I stated in my repost, I couldn’t have said it better. May Autumn Snyder continue to rest in peace. Let’s get started!

It’s been so long since I’ve made a post I can’t even remember how I do this LOL.

CLARK is outta there to say the least...

WONDER WOMAN and LOIS look flabbergasted, as they should... BRUCE as well.

Talk about a shock-wave scream

All jokes aside, the hate that LEX has towards SUPERMAN is just to much energy to be giving to another person..

THESE BITCHIES ARE READY

why are they letting a minority approach the fucking the cube?!?!

*insert travel montage scene here*

Part 1 - “Don’t count on it, Batman.”

BRUCE knows damn well he’s talking to AQUAMAN. Let’s move this shit along lol

“Oh Gotham? How’s that shit hole?” - AQUAMAN

Ik these bitchies aren’t singing rofl

I’d sniff anything wore by Jason Momoa too.

“Maybe a man who broods in a cave isn’t cut out to be a recruiter.” - ALFRED

TALK YO SHIT ALFRED!!!!

AMY ADAMS can literally take my heart, step on it, throw it in a river and I still wouldn’t be mad.

Here comes the lovely WONDER WOMAN!

broooo her hands were moving like Donnie Yen in Ip Man!

Fucked that entire ceiling up

Ofc the one who tried to touch it would make the stupid statement.

STEPPENWOLF is really wildin’ out

Don’t look back! I hate it when they look back!!

These are some strong as women!

PART 2 - “The Age of Heroes”

“It’s toxic, that’s good.” - STEPPENWOLF

I can only imagine that this is how toxic people think.

this dude really just threw that lil demon fella like it was nothin’ lmao

You know you're working at a job for too long when you say this is the first time in a while that they're going home early smdh

Now that shit was pretty lit....

SILAS thinkin’ shit I better check on my son.

“You know a lot about monsters, don’t you? Especially how to make them.” - CYBORG

If that isn’t teen angst, then I don’t know wtf is lmao

Seeing Gal in this tomb makes me want to re-watch Wonder Woman 1 all over again!

DARKSEID ol’ trifflin’ ass

plopped him down like he was dirty laundry

God bless Willem Dafoe, this man is a fuckin’ legend!

“This world is divided. They’re a primitive species. Unevolved and at war with one another. Too separate to be one.” - STEPPENWOLF

DeSaad kinda looks like Doctor Doom in the Fantasic Four reboot lmao

GREEN LATERNS!!!!!!!!!!!! OH SHIT!!!!!!!!

we really need a Green Lantern Corps moving...

ZEUS + ARES = A Dynamic Duo When They Aren’t Being Dicks To Each Other

You know I feel bad for man because all they did was bury that shit in the ground rofl

Part 3 - “Beloved Mother, Beloved Son”

BARRY + IRIS = Love at First Sight

The burger can’t be that good like damn.

Bro the detail on his fucking shoes and the glass!!

ROFL PLEASE TELL ME HE TOOK THE HOTDOG FOR HIS DOG!?!?

damn did the car really need to explode...

lol BARRY must really need the job lol

... I would’ve just played dead after he threw me against that rock...

Man of Steel probably has one of the best soundtracks not just for a superhero movie but just in general

Americans love their football!

I have this love-hate relationship with CYBORG being in the JL and not with the TITANS you know since he’s a kid, but he’s a college student in this one.

Thank God DIANA spoke with VICTOR instead of BRUCE because I honestly don’t think he would’ve gotten him on board.

Everyone can literally zigzag zoom across this planet at undeniable speed except for BATMAN lol

Come on, VIC, help the lady out.

You know honestly, BARRY has a pretty cool pad for someone who's trying to get by paying for a Criminal Justice Degree.

“A very attractive Jewish boy. Who drinks milk, I don’t drink milk.” - BARRY

“Fuck the World.” - CYBORG

dang Ik DIANA has every right to grieve over STEVE, but damn that man has her whipped!

“You’re looking at the hottest thing on Earth. The exact same thing I said to my prom date. She dumped me anyway.” - RYAN CHOI

Why does MERA have an accent in this but not in AQUAMAN?? (ik the answer)

DAAAYYUUUMMMN MERA TURNED INTO A WHOLE BLOOD BENDER!

PART 4 - “Change Machine”

CYBORG just glided over silently

STEPPENWOLF + WONDER WOMAN = EPIC FIGHT SCENE

Seeing BARRY move like that to stop the debris and to ping DIANA’S sword really is amazing..

But he should not be screaming like that LOL

How do you not remember the planet that’s habitants almost killed you?? Because if that was me, I wouldn’t have forgotten that shit at all!

Would've held a big ass grudge until I could go back.

“I know we’re all thinking the same thing right now. Who’s gonna say it? I’m not gonna say it.” - BARRY

WOOOAAHHH J’ONN JONES?! (forgot about that)

“There are six, not five. There is no us without him.” - BRUCE

Damn, no faith at all

PART 5 - “ALL The King’s Horses”

ICONIC DIALOGUE

BARRY - “Wonder Woman. What do you think, man? You think she’d go for a younger guy?”

VICTOR - “She’s 5,000 years old, Barry. Every guy is a younger guy.”

I would’ve kept swippin’ that ID like a cashier at Wal-Mart swippin’ a debit card.

They're movin’ a little too slow for me. Ik they’ve never been on the ship before, but I would’ve been zoomin’ through that entire ship just to hurry and get the job done.

NOT THE PREGNANCY TEST

Damn, they couldn’t have at least picked up the photo??

The foreshadowing was spectacular! It will always amaze me.

I’m sure Allstate will cover that person’s car...

Just when LOIS was about to move on.

CLARK grabbed DIANA like miss me with that Rafiki shit.

I would’ve come back to my senses too after looking at Amy Adams.

AQUAMAN + THE FLASH = A CONUNDRUM

DR. SILAS takin’ one for the team

PART 6 - “Something Darker”

As crazy as radiation is, it’s quite an amazing spectacle.

I wish this Justice League movie could’ve held off until we got some other heroes such as the Green Lanterns, Hawkgirl, and many others.

Our generation was truly blessed to have an incredible actor as SUPERMAN, and we are not putting him to use!

JONATHAN sounds like President Biden lol

Alright, team?! Break!

AQUAMAN is totally enjoying this fight. He rode that Parademon like a surfboard.

AQUAMAN + CYBORG + FLASH = *THE BOYS ARE BACK IN TOWN*

I swear every scene that WONDER WOMAN enters into does not fail to include the “Ancient Lamentation Music”.

VICTOR hurry up and say “one” god damnnit!!

SUPERMAN COLD!!!!

Somebody needs to put this fight on WorldStar

BARRY = HE’S A RUNNA HE’S A TRACK STAHHHHARRR!!!

THAT WAS FUCKING IMMACULATE

The Unity = The Three Bitchies

I bet DARKSEID will remember that shit now

EPILOGUE - “A Father Twice Over”

VICTOR = A Final Requiem

LOL VULKO and MERA look stressed tf out!

“Uh, I have too much to live for. And more important things to do.” - LEX

A cocky motherfucker LMAO

Alright, we’re back in this type of dream sequence.

“Who have you ever loved?” - MERA

Uh, bitch his parents, Robin tf?!

Thank you, JOKER, for stating the facts for Ms. Fish-stick

Oh shit, they let LOIS die, goddamn it!

HARLEY’S DEAD TOO?!?!?!

BRUCE LOOK SICK AF!!!

Well, the dream is over once again...

I just don’t see how people can live with all those fuckin’ windows.

“Oh, and some have called me The Martian Manhunter.” - J’ONN

Alright...

________

Yes, the movie was long but what needed to be expressed was. As we already the Snyder Cut wasn’t supposed to be seen because a father simply wanted to grieve the death of his child. I’ll once again reiterate what @verified-villain-fxcker you don't have to like the film but at least give it the benefit of the doubt from its predecessor. For me, I did enjoy watching his version, but let’s be honest what he who shall not be named did was just fucked up.

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linkspooky · 4 years

Text

Toga Himiko’s Normal Life

Himiko looks like the most straight forward case of what pop culutre considers to be a classical sociopath / psychopath in My Hero Acadmia. Shigaraki, Dabi, Hawks were all groomed to become the way they were, but Himiko possessed a natural inclination towards blood and violence from the start. She seesm to be a natural born cold blooded killer, however in this meta I’ll argue that while Toga seems like the flip-side of a normal, good person like Uraraka, she’s actually just a normal girl herself.

1. Character Origins

Volume sixteen of My Hero Academia had an official illustration included as an extra that shows the characters Twice and Himiko drawn together in an illusion to a famous Joker and Harley Quinn illustration.

Now, I’m not going so far as to claim Himiko was based off of Harley Quinn, but one the league of villains and characters like Twice (and ReDestro) have made similiar references to the Joker before that especially with the quote “All it takes is one bad day”. There’s also enough similarities betweeen the two characters, they’re both the only female members of a crime syndicate that is mostly men, and dominated by men. Their backstories mirror each other, they were both relatively sane, normal, girls, until suddenly they cracked one day and became a total inversion of their previous presonality. There are enough similarities that I could use Harley as an example to explain a few of the important ideas present in Toga’s character.

They are also both female characters who are written with love as the central concept of their characters. Harley’s origin as originally depicted in the comic and episode for the Batman the Animated Series “Mad Love” goes as follows: Harleen Quinzell was a psychiatrist working at Arkham. Eventualy she came to sympathize with one of her patients which triggered a transformation in her from well meaning doctor, to love-sick sycophant of the joker who broke him out of prison.

A lot of Batman Villains have origins like this. The most comparable one is Harvey Dent. Proescutors, Doctors, we are told the people who hold these jobs are good and righteous people. Even Harley herself started out as someone who just sympathized with a patient too much. However, somehow they become flipped into the exact opposite versions of themselves. They go mad for lack of a better words. Harvey Dent who was once a symbol of justice, becomes nothing more than a murderer, and Harley Quinn goes from healer to the sidekick of a mad clown willing to destroy everything in the name of love.

The question, asked in both Himiko and Harley’s stories is how can good people flip like this?

Most people have a black and white view of these issues: good people are only capable of good actions, and bad people are capable of bad actions. It’s hard to swallow the fact that any normal person has the capacity to cause so much harm inside of them.

We see similiar remarks in the background of Himiko’s story. Himiko comes from a good upper class family, she went to what was most likely a good school, she was always smiling and surrounded by friends. Everyone who comments on her sudden transformation reacts in a similiar way. “She was aways so cheerful and well-behaved, I still find it hard to believe.” She was always such a good girl, and good people don’t do those things.

Normal people, good people, don’t have the capacity to do bad. That’s what makes the transformations so shocking. Therapists/Doctors are supposed to heal, Prosecutors are supposed to be just. And now we return to our old friend Jung.

The story of Harleen Quinzell and Harley Quinn. The story of Himiko Toga the happy middle school girl and Himiko Toga the serial killer is a tale told over and over again, it’s just usually told with male protagonists instead of female ones. It’s Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

Robert Louis Stevenson’s The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde (1886) is a late-Victorian variation on ideas first raised in Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein (1818). Stevenson’s monster, however, is not artificially created from stitched-together body parts, but rather emerges fully formed from the dark side of the human personality. In the story Dr Jekyll, an admired member of the professional Victorian middle-classes, conducts a series of scientific experiments which unleash from his own psyche the ‘bestial’ and ‘ape-like’ Mr Hyde (ch. 10). Gothic fiction had examined the idea of the sinister alter ego or double before on many occasions but Stevenson’s genius with Jekyll and Hyde was to show the dual nature not only of one man but also of society in general.

“Man is not one, but truly two.”

Robert Louis Stevenson

Both cases are tales are transformation, of the monster coming from within. Himiko transforms from middle school girl into serial killer. Harleen Quinzell transforms into Harley Quinn. Dr. Jekyll becomes Mr. Hyde. We witness a transformation into a monster that seems the antithesis of everything that person was boefre, but was inside of them all along this works because of the jungian idea of the shadow.

The shadow is the unconscious side of personality. The shadow is what exists but what we do not acknowledge. If our behavior during everyday life, choosing to smile, choosing to talk to people, choosing to use our manners is a mask then the shadow is the face beyond the mask. The conscious personality conceals, the shadow reveals. It’s the difference betewen who we are and who we choose to be. The shadow isn’t necessarily negative however. The shadow is just the repressed side of our personalities, it’s what we try to hide.

The shadow plays a role in Harleen’s transformation. While it’s present in Mad Love as well, a recent miniseries ‘Harleen’ really dives into the Jungian symbolism. There’s even several similarities in common with Himiko’s story, for example there’s a scene where Harleen is shown watching the bat man beat up joker and notice how everyone is cheering despite the fact that it’s violent.

Himiko’s interest in a boy is sparked by watching him get into a fight while everybody else is cheering for him.

The cover page depicts the change between Quinn and Quinnzel as a crumbling mask, which is the exact same imagery used for Himiko.

When she enters Arkham she chooses to depict Harley Quinn’s silhouette in Harleen’s shadow. Once again implying that the transformation is not so sudden and jarring as it seems, that Harley Quinn has always been there and is a part of her psychology the same way Mr. Hyde is inside Dr. Jekyll.

The comic even points it out. Harleen, and also by extension Harvey Dent are people who claim to be “good, righteous people’ and yet both of them end up transforming into murderers. Two-face’s name is literally two-face.

There’s also one particularly Jungian sequence in the middle of the conflict. She dreams (dreams are unconscious and therefore the realm of the shadow in Jung’s theories) about the city of gotham as a place inhabited with citizens who are monsters wearing the faces of human beings.

The idea is consistent throughout that Harleen is not really a ‘good person’ she’s merely repressed. She has had this capacity to be violent inside of her, this selfishness, all of these dark desires carried with her all along but rather than deal with them in any healthy way she repressed them until repressing them is no longer an option. Harvey Dent’s face gets half burned off, Harley’s skinn gets bleached by chemicals, the monsterous features inside of them are now worn on their faces and they have to wear their ugliness on the outside rather than the inside. They are now expressing every single thing they have repressed. However, the suggestion in both stories is that these are not special cases, that Gotham is such a repressed society that everyone is repressing the things they don’t like about themselves in that way. Harley fell in mad love sure, but love was just the reason, just the trigger, the truth is those feelings always lurked inside of her and she had no healthy way of dealing with them before that point.

That is the shadow, it’s everything you repress but it never disappears. If you ignore it, it takes on a life of its own. In some cases, like Harley’s you basically become your own shadow. Harley is the flipped upside down version of Harleen Quinzel, now her inner demons are what are expressed on the surface (desperation to be loved, violence, etc.) while her ‘normal’ self is hidden under a mask of insanity. That’s in fact how she ends the comic, Harley qalking around while Harley is trapped on the other side of the mirror because they have basically traded places. Now Mr. Hyde is walking around, while Dr. Jekyll is hidden personality. But it’s important to remember it’s not something like a split personality, Harleen Quinzell and Harley Quinn were always two sides of the same person. Even when she starts expressing her ‘bad’ traits, the good traits don’t go away. They’re just hidden underneath the surface the way the repressed bad traits used to be. Because you’re not good or bad, you’re not one side or the other. You’re both at the same time. Man is not one, but truly two.

So the complexity in Himiko comes from understanding that she’s BOTH a normal girl, and also a blood crazy yandere psycho.

2. A Normal Girl - Uraraka Ochaco

Uraraka is a pretty standard shonen heroine. She’s a cheerful girl. She’s a supportive friend. She’s the embodiment of what you’d call a good, kind, person and doesn’t seem to be any more complex than that. She lacks say the drive to be a hero that Midoriya does, the superiority complex that Bakugo has, the emotional issues that Todoroki has. She seems to always be agreeable and in a cheerful mood.

If you look just a little bit closer though she always seems to be walking on eggshells when she’s around others. She doesn’t want to join Deku and the others to try to save Bakugo from the heroes because, it might hurt Bakugo’s feelings.

When she loses in the hero tournament, she apologizes to her parents crying not because she feels bad that she lost, but she feels like she failed them. Like it was her job to win and bring money home. However, when Deku comes to check on her in the room she’s already completely hidden her tears.

Going into her backstory we learn that Uraraka is walking on eggshells around everybody due to her own parents, that she’s spent her life trying to be as small of a burden on them as possible because she could see the tired looks on their faces. She’s a child who felt guilty that her parents had to take care of her.

So, for Uraraka her entire life is devoted to making herself seem as small and inconsequential as possible. Other people’s needs will always trump hers. Other people will always have more noble motivations for becoming a hero than she has. Other people’s emotions will always be louder and take priority over hers. Uraraka sees her own emotions and needs as mere trifles that get in the way, and so she always shuts them down. We see Uraraka as a version of Himiko, a high school girl who always appears to be cheerful and well-behaved but is merely repressed.

Uraraka repeats the same unhealthy behavior as Himiko once did. Which is why Uraraka’s first meeting with Himiko goes with Himiko getting such a cold read on her.

It’s helpful to view Himiko as the flipped version of Uraraka. Uraraka hides everything that’s pleasant about her on the inside, and on the outside appears like a perfectly selfless girl. Himiko is someone who hides her good qualities and instead wears the mask of a bloodthirsty psycho on the outside. While Uraraka lives by denying her selfish desires, Himiko always chases after them and is true to them.

Traits that are repressed in Uraraka, are expressed in Himiko. Especially traits that society sees as bad in girls, like selfishness, being emotional, etc..

The way Himiko acts is especially jarring because she seems convinced she’s a normal person. She’s in her own little world, making friends, getting along with other people, it’s just her friendship just happens to involve stabbing.

Himiko appears to be a girl psychotically obsessed with blood and nothing else. A girl who only cares about killing other people and chopping them up to bits. When she expresses the feelings deep inside of herself, literally no one can make heads or tails of what she’s saying, she doesn’t sound like a girl just a bloodthirsty monster.

While Uraraka seems like she has nothing in common with what is essentially a weird serial killer, we learn that the exact behavior that Uraraka’s creation is what led to Himiko’s current state of mind.

The difference between them is not that Uraraka is a person of higher moral character, or a better person, but rather of circumstances between the two of them. It’s not the choices they made but rather things they were born into and couldn’t control. Uraraka has parents that accept her even when she fails and encourage her.

Toga had parents that abused their daughter, and then abandoned her.

Uraraka chose to repress herself, while Toga was forced to become repressed by her parents. While we don’t know for sure if it was physical abuse it’s at least emotional abuse, and it had to be to an extreme extent to make Himiko snap that hard. The same unhealthy behavior but push to extremes gets extreme results.

3. Normal Girl - Himiko Toga

Himiko did not become the way she is because she was lacking empathy or born with uncontrollable urges for bloodlust, but because of the environment around her that always forced her to repress herself. From the knowledge that her parents would never love her for who she really was. Himiko wasn’t born that way she was a response of what was done to her.

People who don’t really know Himiko always judge her this way, that she’s incapable of understanding other people, that she has no empathy for others. She’s almost literally labelled and dismissed as a one dimmensional yandere trope by the people surrounding her.

However, Himiko is in fact always doing the opposite. She’s constantly trying to empathize with others. Her maddened way of talking to both Tsuyu and Uraraka in her character introduction is exactly that, her trying to feel that kind of connection.

Himiko’s fascination for Uraraka is a desire for empathy and understanding. One that you could say even surpasses some characters on the hero’s side, because she’s willing to try to understand the world’s of people who are nothing like her. Himiko’s next most significant action in the manga is to take Camie’s place and go after the kids. While she does fight against them she’s not overly violent, just curious. Deku even reaffirms some of Himiko’s primary traits.

Himiko is always talking a lot and trying to explain her way of thinking to other people, because she wants them to understand her. However, because she’s bad at communicating this tends to come off as babble and a lot of people completely dismiss what she says and don’t attempt to listen.

She expresses two things one a desire to know Deku on a deeper level, immediately asking him very personal, and sometimes very downright invasive question and two she also notices the closeness that Deku and Uraraka have for one another.

Once again this is a repeating theme for the league. Himiko repeats the same desire that Twice has, to become a person who is trusted in the same way.

Once again it’s important to remember that Himiko is just the flipped version of a normal girl. If most people hide their bloodlust and show their good sides, Himiko hides her desire to be trusted and to empathize with other people underneath her bloodthirsty urges she shows on the surface. She positions herself as a femme fatalle, but she’s actually just a girl who’s trying to understand why other people are different then her, and why Deku and Uraraka can have a relationship mutually founded on trust when she can’t.

Himiko’s past was so repressed she never formed real relationships with people. Not only that she assumes that nobody will want the real her, because the moment she flipped and the real her was exposed everybody in her life abandoned her and she had to run away.

After her brush with Deku and Uraraka we see Himiko start to be trusted by her comrades and a marked transformation takes place in her.

We see shades of the old Himiko. A selfish girl who only exists to fulfill her whims. However, we’re shown Himiko is capable of empathizing because not only do Shigaraki’s words get through to her.

Himiko is also for the first time able to reach the emotions of another person. Remember when Himiko tries to explain how she’s feeling, she babbles, and babbles and nobody listens. However that changes and for the first time, not only does Himiko pick up exactly on what’s troubling Twice, she also comforts him the way he needs to be comforted. She tells him that yes it might be his fault that Magne died, but she sees that he’s doing his best to make up for it and she gently encourages him.

Remember how important this is for Twice. The world has never forgiven Jin for his mistakes. He hit the wrong guy on accident, while obeying the law, and lost both his job and his home. He started stealing to make ends meet, and as a result he lost his mind. When he makes a mistake it always blows up in his face but this time, Himiko notices that she’s panicking and comforts him telling him it’s okay he’s made this mistake and he can still work hard to fix it.

Not only that but she notices what the problem was with Jin, she was able to notice the symptoms of his psychotic breakdown and rather than dismiss it as just Twice being crazy was able to help him in real tangible ways by wrapping her hanky around him and covering him up like he asked. Uraraka has a very surface level kindness, she’s kind but only by walking around on eggshells with everyone. Himiko is able to see through people, but uses that to comfort people on a deeper level.

The “Himiko just can’t control herself because of her quirk” narrative is something that Himiko rejects herself. Because that’s not what Himiko wants. Himiko doesn’t want to be special or different from other people.

Himiko sees herself as normal, and what she desires to be understand and be understood by other people. She doesn’t like Curious’ narrative for her because it made her out to be a freak or someone special when Himiko is trying her best to get others to understand her as a normal girl. Himiko can’t repress herself anymore, she can’t become normal the way her parents taught her too so not permanently broken, and forced to always express herself she’s trying some other way.

What she wants isn’t to hurt other people, not really though. Those thoughts just turn violence, because Himiko is herself a person who’s endured a lot of violence. Himiko is basically a child that’s been on her own living on the streets and surviving for years, with all the dangers that entails, and also people who can shoot lasers and punch things really hard chasing after her.

The more she’s isolated and on the run, the more violence she endures, the more violent and unhinged her thoughts become. The more she’s exposed to people who accept her for who she is, the more she’s trusted by those people, the more empathic and sensitive Himiko becomes instead. Himiko’s desire isn’t violence, when she’s pushed to her utter limit she says what she wants is to become a girl like Uraraka who is just loved and trusted by others for who she is.

And I genuinely believe at the core of Himiko’s character this empathic girl exists. Himiko becoming violent and unrepressed doesn’t mean her empathy disappears. The complexity from Himiko is that she’s both the knife wielding psycho and the normal girl who just wants to have friends at the same time. If behind every normal person there’s a monster lurking is true then the opposite is true as well, behind every monster there’s a normal person.

This is an idea expressed by Twice again. One of the villains that Hawks dismissed as a bad person, was capable of showing him compassion and gentleness even when he screwed up. Toga was capable of empathy for Twice besides the use he had for others. Toga herself is shown to be capable of more empathy than Hawks, who is one of the most selfless characters in the series, and who is convinced his actions are always done in order to save others.

However we see their treatment of Twice is so drastically different. Hawks treats Twice in a selfish way refusing to listen to what Twice wants, and only ever used Twice as a tool to exploit. Twice himself thinks that now that he’s no longer useful, Himiko won’t be kind to him anymore however we see the opposite.

Twice admits to Toga that he’s the reason that everyone is in danger right now and he completely failed, and he’s not going to come save them. He admits that he’s useless and Twice himself said Toga wouldn’t be kind to him anymore. However in that moment, Himiko ignores the fact that her life is literally in danger and everything is going to hell around her to comfort Twice one final time and tell him the words he needs to hear.

It’s literally the single most empathic moment of the manga, and it’s in direct contrast to Hawks’ behavior. A hero as devoted to saving other people as Hawks, who genuinely likes Twice as a friend doesn’t show him any empathy at all and even stabs him as the back. A psycho like Toga puts her own feelings aside and notices Twice’s feelings, and gives him comfort and thanks him in his final moment because to her Twice has value as a person beyond what his use is. That Himiko is capable of this kindness, but equally capable of her monstrous actions earlier in the series is what makes her human. Her kindness doesn’t make her any less mosntrous, and her monstrous qualities don’t make her kindness go away she’s both at once, rather than either or. That’s where the complexity comes in.

Toga is a very human character precisely because we see her at her most monstrous, and we see that girl slowly relearn how to express the kindness that’s always been inside of her in healthier non-stabby way. A normal girl who learned how to be a monster to protect herself. A monster who is slowly relearning to be a normal girl.

#himiko toga #jin bubaigawara #league of villains #league of villains meta #league of villains friendship #mha meta #my hero academia #my hero academia meta #my hero academia villains

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thr-333 · 3 years

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Could you possibly do one where Mari/Mari and marine is/are the daughter/son of the joker?

I actually planned quite a lot for this after you asked but could never get my thoughts to make something comprehensive so I give up here's what I got!:

-Twins are Joker and Harleys kids born before the two split up(and so help me they will split up this story needs gay aunt Ivy)

-As you might know, these two clowns have another kid; Lucy. Harley left Lucy with her sister when she was born. In canon, she thinks Harley is her aunt but I would say in this fic she learned the truth when the twins were also dropped off.

-So the twins grew up in Gotham with their aunt and big sister knowing full well who their parents are; as such they make the responsible choice to suppress every part of themselves that resembles them and constantly dye their hair in an effort to avoid looking like them. You know healthy coping mechanisms. -

-Naturally, Marinette has brown hair with blue eyes and Marion blonde with brown eyes.

-Their personalities are a bit different from Mismatch.

-Marion is still a trickster and a trouble maker but this time around has Marinette fully involved and responsible for his shenanigans. He has a bit of a habit of talking to himself(or singing random phrases), sometimes in the third person; he hates when he does, so Marinette always tells him off. He’s always gets the impulse of dying his hair outlandish colors and will vehemently deny his favorite color is green.

- Marinette is crafty, both figuratively and literally. She’s smart, her mother is a doctor after all she can be manipulative to people that arent her(close) family to protect the ones she cares about. She has a deep-seated fear of becoming a trophy, an object to be put on display like her mother and so dresses the opposite and pushes away her love for fashion.

-They will always call each other Mari but if someone else tries they both answer its a nickname they strictly use for each other.

-In a world where Gotham exists it makes absolutely no sense that Gabriel wouldn't start his reign as Hawkmoth in Gotham(the place with the most negative emotions like geez) so that works out perfectly for the twins becoming heroes(Adrien can move to Gotham or be left in Paris to be kept safe your choice)

-Instead of the twins proving themselves by helping an old man up off the street they go a step further is beating up the thugs that try to rob him(all Fu’s set up of course). When they come home to find two mysterious boxes on their beds they make the only rational conclusion children of the joker would; it’s a bomb!

-Not wanting to get the police involved for obvious reasons they find the security footage(which gets the police involved in a different way) and start tracking down fu to see why he’s trying to kill him.

-And as you may recall at this point in canon Ladybug and Chat Noir are defeating an Akuma, well they're not here they’re off to beat up an old man so thats Batman’s job for the time being.

-The twins get caught up in the fight as civilians and are saved by Batman who immediately recognizes them(you don't think Batman has case files on all of Jokers hellspawn?) so that’s gonna be a problem later but never mind that for now~

-The twins track down Fu, who is wondering why they aren’t out fighting the Akuma. Long story short Fu comes back to the house with them and proves they aren't bombs giving them the miraculous.

-I’m a bit indecisive on the names. I thought Marinette would be Red Bug and Marion Black Cat(yes I know that names already taken I don’t care). But I thought Crimson Bug would work better because then their names would start with the same letters. Then I wanted alliteration like Black Bug and Crimson Cat but that obviously doesn't make any sense since Chats color is green not red-- then I realized it would be completely in character for them to call themselves that confusing everyone in the process so no one quite sure whos name is who(if you wanna write it go with whatever I just thought it could be funny)

-As for costumes Marinette's probably wouldn't be skin tight because deep down she really doesn't want to look like that but more practical armor or less form-fitting at least. Marion's hair turns green when he transforms something he freaks out about and Marinette's turns red(glowing or not either would look cool)

-So anyway they go off to defeat the akuma blah blah blah Batman seeing these two young untrained superheroes can only think of one thing: I have to adopt them. So that’s gonna be fun!

-Anyway they go back home trying to be sneaky and immediately get caught by Lucy: ”Don’t tell Aunty!”-- ”Oh I already know” (her names Delia by the way)

- So now the twins get a support system and a family that will look out for them unbelievable right? This support system immediately threatens Fu making sure he actually trains them and doesn't just set them loose on Gotham.

Anyway that's the end of my semi-cohesive plan and here's a vague outline for the fic:

1. Becoming ladybug and chat noir setting up adoption, and school(Bruce invites them to Gotham academy to keep an eye on the jokers children)

2. First day at school setting up Artemis(and by extension young justice), and own passions, Adrien is also at this school now so Marinette falls, Jason finds out falling in love with Marion

3. Becoming friends with Artemis, convinces them to give their passions a try, Marion runs from hood, some let me adopt you stuff also Jason's spite for Cat Noir

4. Skip a bit of time a few months or so, young justice need help Artemis suggest mari and mari, Marinette has a smackdown with batman about their heritage, at odds with young justice Artemis comes to their defense. Young Justice have an ‘oh’ realization on the job when Marion sings a lullaby to a scared child, now the young justice form the mari and mari protection squad

5. Doing ladybug and cat stuff batman approaches them again this time luring them into adoption with a partnership on finding hawkmoth, Red Hood and cat fight. Marion comes back all huffy and there's a scene with Lucy this time comforting them, Marion goes out to get air runs into hood marion bristles stirring Jason to meet him as a civilian, class come to visit, at odds with lila

6. Doing well at school even made a few friends when the Paris class come to visit completely under lila’s control, lila tries to slander the twins for not worshiping her only to out herself when she tells everyone they laughed at her(the twins never laugh), Jason also drops by further discrediting her, lila tries to throw their heritage in their face but they get support openly working with heroes as civilians, this little section ends quite happily with them being sort of accepted at school and batman tolerating their existence for not attacking the person who tried to make their life miserable

7. Time skip few years out of high school now, ladybug and cat are working well with gothams vigilantes widely considered part of the batfam even if no one knows each other's identities. As mari and mari they are doing good work mainly outside of gotham. Marinette is starting a fashion boutique with a little financial help from Wayne enterprises she also does costume design for heroes and villains, villains mainly because she can't stand their current outfits. Marion quite likes his music but isn't sure how he will feel in the public eye is great friends with Jason and the skip picks up with them officially starting to go out identities unknown. They are still hesitant about their identities in civilian life Marinette starting her business under a false name and Marion cant start his because of his heritage. Jason officially has to admit they are going out to the family is met with grilling by aunt and sister, joy by harley once she tries giving them sex advice they leave, his brothers tease and both are tense about Bruces reaction but he begrudgingly accepts. Are out as ladybug and Cat still snippy with hood but it’s not as bad they are closing in on hawkmoth. Go to hang out with young justice as well they aren't well-liked in Gotham but they’re fine with that(not really)

8. NOW things can go to shit joker finally has enough of them deciding to get a hold of them but I think it should be as ladybug and chat revealing their identities to the world. The twins are terrified rightfully so. Get saved now it’s weird between hood and marion, marion feeling betrayed Jason knew who he was and knew who his father was but still decided to date him and he just can't understand why. Adrien was so scared for Marinette and now they both have to work out why. Gotham is at odds the heroes they admire are born from a villain they fear. Bats are a bit weird feeling like they were tricked while also kind of acknowledging the twins are good people

9. Harassed in their everyday life now the twins go to young justice where they get met with awe for being established independent heros, bats there are acting weird but the twins say something to shift perspective leaving to let them mull on it. Jason tries to apologise saying he doesn't see Marion like that blah blah Marion has a breakdown asking how he can be anything but a villain. Marinette's having whiplash going from loved to hated and still dealing with the trauma of seeing her father. They snap. In public a big ol scene and they get akumatised everyone sees it, it’s on tv. Hawkmoth comes out to get their miraculous the batfam can’t beat him. He’s monolouging probing at their deepest fears when they snap back to reality realizing none of it’s true every part of them has worked to be good people and they are they don't hand over their miraculous beating the akumatizaton and beating hawkmoth while akumatised.

10. They are released from the hospital a few days later, getting hesitant recognition on the streets. It's not thunderous applause but it is something. Their family comes to pick them up, Adrien is crying to Marinette about not scaring him like that(her family took him in when Gabriel was revealed). Marion gets picked up by Jason they patch things over. They get accepted into the batfam and work as ladybug and cat for everything. Marion decides to start playing music and Marinette reveals her face to her fashion brand.

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es05l2k5sl · 4 years

Text

I'll never understand why WB had to redesign the Batcast for the new Bat adventures. Some characters took getting used to. But as for the villains, I'm roasting they asses cus they're ugly. Can't change my mind.

These Oswalds together look like 2 different people bruh. But we're here to talk about new Oswald. This Wimpy x Olive Oyl fusion snoody looking ass bitch. I'd like his outfit if it didn't have that lazy drawned bow tie looking like 2 triangles glued together & those fake ass MJ gloves. Also when tf did he have 10 fingers in dis universe? Also fuck that hair. Rocking a balding Mullet like ponytail before. Now it's just a boring cut down. Got dat snooty ass bitch look on face like his bird shit don't be stinking. I'll rock tf out u. Lookin like a whole ass Looney character or sum mf from the 30s.

Wot da fuck dey got Selena wearing here? Sis looking like a whole ass alien. Kid vs Kat looking ass bish. And her skin white af too? Did sis fall in some damn Joker acid too? Sis whole lower face is white as shit! Dat shit paler than crack. Like sis got the white slapped outta her and she just turned whiter. Das probably what happened. Her ass probably got on my mans Bruce last nerves one night and got da shit backslapped out her ass.

So my dude Matthew got turned a different color pal & got his neck privileges revoked? Lazy af but not the worst revamp.

You kno that meme: "upgrade, upgrade, FUCK GO BACK!"? Dis pre much sums up Jonathan here. My mans jus looks so dirty here. Looking straight outta da trash bin. Like literally dirty. Nasty ass teeth probably got dat hot ass breath blowing thru them bitches. Das a real fear toxin right there. Long ass black as shit dirty ass hair. Tryna copy off my girl from the ring w dat shit. Need to take dat dirty ass wig and mask and Amish hat tf off my dude. It is not rocking you. Dat whole worn out trashy ass outfit ain't working for you either hoe. You need to take yo ass a bath bitch cus your arms looking brown and ashy as a bitch. You can not even THINK about borrowing anything from me w yo dirty creepy stalker lookin ass. If you don't put down that damn stick like yo ass need help walking and shit I oughtta bitch ya ass with the shit fo going around dressed like dis. Take that damn rope off your neck bitch fo I do something Bruce won't do.

Bruh, you can not go up to my face and tell me these niggas are the same person in the same mofucking universe! Jervis What da fuck did they DO TO YOU MY N**GA?? N**ga looking like a damn leprechaun with special needs and shit. Rocking all dat dookie green swag but you got no swag anymore my dude. It's shit like you clothes and yo breath! Yo shits wasn't perfect and white before but them hoes looking hella worse now. What you get drinking all that damn tea my n**ga. Ol Tiny ass n**ga. Like wot. HOW?! HOW TF DID YO ASS SHRINK??? LIKE SOMEBODY TOSSED YOU ASS IN A LAUNDRY DRYER AND PROBABLY FORGOT TO TAKE YO STUPID ASS OUT. PROBABLY WHY YO HAIR WHITE AND SMALL AS SHIT YA UGLY ASS LUCKY CHARMS LOOKING ASS CRACK FEENY. If you don't hop yo ass back under a rainbow with dem skinny ass broken heel lookin ass tap dancing shoes.

Victor, bruh, they dem did yo ass so dirty in the new adventures. I ain't gonna lie that new suit kinda ok. But you looking like a whole skeleton and shit. Lookin like a young Palpatine & shit. Ol Frisky dingo looking ass! Need to put those goggles back on. The least yo (spoiler) 2003 Baxter Stockman ass can do now.

Yo ass probably looking mad as shit cus ya can't jack it no more n**ga. Dats all gon now. Long with yo unloyal ass wife. How tf she gon bounce on you after everything you did for her? After all the years and bull you had to put up with & she leave yo cold ass for another nibba? Fuck DCAU Nora. Just fuck her.

Scarface lookin like a damn Fanboy & Chum Chum character & his boy over here lookin like Chode. Next.

UUUUUUUUUUGGGHHHHHGG.

Just. UAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHH. Bruh I will never understand who tf thought this shit was a good idea?! Like who the fuck, was drawing dis nigga. Drew DIS Sus af shit. LOOKED at dis shit. And said to deyself: "Yeah dats da Riddler aight". HELL TO THE NAH DAT AIN'T NO DAMN DAS A (dick) FIDDLER! HE LOOKIN SUS AS FUCK NOW WITH THEM TIGHT AS GREEN SPANDEX AND THAT DARK AS HELL EYELINER. Looking like gay Christmas elf! Looking like a gay ass ballay dancer with them Spider Gwen ballerina shoes. You can't dance for shit nigga! Yo shit is SOOO DAMN TIGHT like I can get a good sight and shape picture of yo "Question mark" I'm telling y'all. sSSSUUUSSSSSSS. Looking like a bigasss lima bean. Skinny ass Jack skeleton moFucka. Like. They did my boy Eddy so freakin dirty with this. My mans had class, style, a nice look, HAIR. Now he. Whateverthelivingfuckdisbaldasspeterpanlookinmofuckasupposestobe. And i hate how that's how he did be lookin in almost every new Batverse when why tho? Nigg(m)a look stupid as hell. How tf he expect to be tooken seriously dressed and lookin like dis ? If I saw dis fucker in real life and he threatens me, imma laugh at his ass and beat him with his cane. Get ya Richard from Allen Gregory looking ass away from me. I can't!

Bruh it don't look that much but they did my mans Harvey dirty too. LOOK AT MY MANS FACE. good half i mean. Yall nigs kno. THESE MUHFUCKERS STRIPPED HIM OF HIS PRETTYNESS! Man. Dis version of Harvey was a pretty muhfucka. You can't deny dat shit

Even when he became Two-Face he still got dat 1 side of pretty. And that deep af panty soaking voice to go along w it. He dat half and half package.

Now HE LOOK LIKE DIS

WHOEVER TF DID DIS NEED DEY ASS WHOOPED! SQUARE TF UP NOW. NIGGA LOOKS LIKE EYEBROWLESS VERSION OF DOC FROM SECRET SATURDAYS. FAT ASS BLOCK NOSE MUH FUCKA. His eye looks like traingle with a Nike logo on top of it. Lookin like a poorly drawn Dwayne The Rock Johnson. And ya other half ain't lookin that good either. Dat 1 eyebrow putting Helga Pataki to shame! I mean the shit didn't look good before but it was somewhat tamed, now the shit looking like full grownass caterpillar. And that lip black as hell. Kno that side dirty as fuuhck!

I don't even know what tf I'm sposed to say about DIS except (kinky..)

Angelica pickles looking ass. Bigass blonde captain coconut looking ass hairstyle. Looking like a blonde creepy ass Wednesday Adams. Dem black as fuck Kim possible lips. She actually looking like a family guy character with that bigass head and small body. I SWEAR she ded looking like one of Stewie's ex's right now my dude! Got tiny ass flat ass guitar chip shoes. Looks like sis wearing fucking Zippers as shoes. Sis got that "i got something planned fo yo ass" smile. Sis look like she plotting something or did some evil shit already.

. . .

Bros I'm sorry but I'm just as confused as you like. I can't find a single thing different about Harley. Like literally nothing. Her makeup at night be looking blue sometimes, looking like a fakeass Livewire, but nah. They didn't even touch homegirl. Why tf is Harley the only character that stayed the same?????! Niggas was playing favorites. They had plans for that ass since day one. They was probs like: "Aye y'all. DO NOT TOUCH HARLEY. SHE STAYS THE SAME!" "why?" "JUST LISTEN TO ME BITCH!" "Wha bout her mans?" "Oh hell yeah fuck his shit up!" ...sigh.. Yep. It's that time...

UaaaaaaAAAAAAAHHH what else is dere to be said about dis ugly ass nigga? Dis nigga look like Yakko Warner & Freakazoid's love child! Dis nigga look like a random Tiny toons or Animaniac character! With that dookie green shirt and flower. You and Riddler's gay ass both matching them Dexter's laboratory Gloves. Why tf yo eyes eyes black as fuck tho?! How tf does one do that to theyself?! Yo ass probably snorted some shit and ya shits expanded and that's prolly yo pupils with ya cracked out ass. Nigga don't even look like a clown no more. Hell Jared Leto Joker atleast had the lipstick down. Dis nigga got dem ashy ass lips hanging out. Nigga think he owning too. Nigga you don't own shit! Broke as hell now. And yo design broke too. Joker? Man more like Broker. Got dat fairly odd parents hair. Got that Cosmo and Wanda in one. Like bitch if you don't. Just like Riddler i can not take yo animaniac looking ass serious. You do not scare me bitch! Bye!

Now see dis? DIS is Aight! A lot more fitting and & faithful to the character. No over the fucking top redesign, you can actually tell it's the same damn character as before, a little bit of swag for personality

So that's the tea. Ivy & Croc are the only good rogue redesigns in the whole series, evBody else ugly as shit.

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