Does "narcissist abuse" exist?

Well, I'll try to think of this as unbiased as possible.

Narcissist and Abuser are not synonymous. Many narcissists make an effort to not harm others and have never been or are currently not abusers.

NPD is a disorder with different presentations and sufferers have differents traits and severities: some narcissists are aggressive and external; some are more internal; some may be concerned with being a good person; some may overcompensate for their narcissism; some may take out the issues of their disorder on others; some may have trouble self-reflecting and hurt others; some may never hurt anyone; some may know how to deal with their traits while others may not.

NPD is a disorder that impacts both the sufferer and the people around them. It is important to talk about the sufferer, but also to acknowledge that it affects others as well. Especially if someone is untreated and unaware of their disorder.

It can cause someone to hurt others if it is left unchecked, if they were taught to hurt others, if they are unaware of their behavior, if they lack self-control, or if they simply have no desire to be a good person.

An abuser with NPD's reasons and ways of abusing someone may be different, just as an abuser with autism's would...and an abuser with depression, an abuser with bipolar, an abuser with schizophrenia, or an abuser who is not mentally ill at all.

I have heard a story about a woman with schizophrenia who was convinced her children were possessed by the devil and tried to attack them. Does this mean everyone with schizophrenia is dangerous? No. Absolutely not. Did her disorder affect the way she treated others in a negative way? Yes, because it presented in this way, and she was completely unaware and untreated. She is a victim in the fact she was dealing with these delusions and this fear, just as her children were victims for having to deal with the way she acted. Again: someone being schizophrenic does not mean they will hurt you. If someone who is schizophrenic tries to hurt you, that isn't representative of everyone with schizophrenia. (Many people with schizophrenia do not try to harm people at all.)

I also heard about the difficulties of a child living with bipolar mother who treated her disorder with alcohol, causing her to accidentally harm her child in many ways. Obviously, her disorder and addiction are relevant in talking about the experience, but we all know people with bipolar disorder are not abusers just because they are bipolar; and addicts are not abusers just because they are addicts.

Abuse can be done on accident, especially if someone was raised around it or thinking it was okay, or if they have a disorder affecting how they see things. In some cases, explaining and trying to help people realize their behavior can work. In others, it won't; some people don't want to listen or get better. If thats the case, thats on them. But no matter what, abuse is a choice. It can be done without awareness; but it is still a choice.

Anyone can be an abuser, and the equation of one disorder with abuse is not only dehumanizing to the people with this disorder, but can actually hurt victims of abusers who aren't narcissists, or victims who are narcissists.

My point is that it can be relevant to say your abuser had NPD. But someone being an abuser doesn't mean they are a narcissist, and the NPD isn't what needs highlighted...its the abuse. Yes, you can say your abuser had NPD, I don't think it's wrong to make a space to discuss this with people who had a similar experience either.

Many people in my family are narcissists/narcissistic, and quite a few of them hurt people or have been abusive. So I won't deny that a lot of narcissists (especially ones who externalize their narcissism and who are completely untreated, also when they refuse to admit they have a problem) treat others badly. I also know some of them don't actually have bad intentions and that others do have (in a way) bad intentions. Some were raised to think it was okay. I also know of narcissists who internalize it, who are aware of their narcissism, who do their best to not hurt others, who are victims themselves.

NPD should be talked about from the perspective of people with NPD, but this doesn't mean people who dealt with abusive people with NPD can't talk about it. As I said, I had no problem with an article about an abusive mother who had bipolar disorder; it was relevant.

A lot of "narcissistic abuse" described is just abuse. A list of abusive behaviors doesn't need to say narcissist at the top. It is completely irrelevant. Say it if it is relevant.

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TLDR; Your abuser being a narcissist can be relevant, and you can talk about it, narcissists can be abusers and their disorder can play a part in it. But not all narcissists are abusers, and "narcissist" is equated with abuser. This is why people do not like the term "narcissistic abuse." It, in a way, equates narcissism with abuse. "Narcissistic abuse" is as real as "autistic abuse" or "bipolar abuse."

Don't use narcissist as a word for abuser. Say it if it's relevant.

I have no problem with a subreddit, therapy group, or community for people who dealt with abusive narcissists, but I want people to not perpetuate a stigma.

I sympathize with those who were abused, but narcissism isn't abuse; abuse is abuse. Narcissism can play a part, but that is not what the abuse is, and that is not THE cause of the abuse.

Abuse is abuse, and anyone can abuse.

*mom voice* You can get these words back when you know what they mean

I LOVE AND APPRECIATE MY FRIENDS WITH NPD 👊👊👊👊👊👊💥💥💥 OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NPD/ASPD culture is doing whatever you can to get what you want, hurting someone or something in the process, and being confused as to why people are mad at you for it. Like are you dumb?

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having bpd is being completely UNHINGED & getting sentenced to a minimum of 72 hours in the grippy sock hotel and then leaving early after somehow manipulating the doctor into thinking you’re fine

I almost can't believe I have to say this but the weird more recent uptick in celebration for people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder is genuinely sickening because you people don't realize you're PRIMING yourselves to become victims of the very specific kind of abuse that certain people with NPD dole out. And because most of y'all on this site specifically have massive issues with reading comprehension let me explicitly state that I'm not at all saying that every person with NPD is an inherent abuser, but what I AM saying is that NPD (just like BPD, or any other disorder), is a DIS-ORDER that requires various forms of TREATMENT and WORK on the person's part to assist the disordered individual to become more interpersonally, socially, vocationally, and broadly successful in their lives. Rampantly untreated NPD that isn't controlled by the individual with the condition leaves MUCH more room for the person to become abusive in a very specific way.

This is why narcissistic abuse IS a real thing. I will even concede that pop culture psychology/Instagram therapy culture is largely unproductive on the subject because it lacks the nuance of the actual human condition, but on the subject of nuance, the widespread conversation regarding recognizing the signs of how narcissistic abuse begins will save more lives than people with NPD's feelings are bruised. And now to tie in the point from my first sentence, all of you who are expressing support and lauding people with NPD, whether you know it or not, are painting a fucking target on your backs. It bears repeating that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is exactly that, a DISORDER, with a set of symptoms that are DISRUPTIVE to not only the individual with the condition but also to those they interact with should they go untreated and uncontrolled. So as you're proclaiming your undying blanket support to a group of individuals with a disorder who, left untreated, exhibit symptoms that are inherently disruptive and antithetical to healthy interpersonal relationships, remember one of the main categorical symptoms of NPD is the massively skewed sense of grandiosity and self importance; in simpler terms, you could be contributing incredibly negatively to that malignant sense of entitlement.

People with NPD, just like any other psychological condition/personality disorder/mental illness, should be encouraged to seek help and treatment, not egged on to continue to believe and act harmfully and irrationally as a result of their disorder. Think before you fucking speak on something you definitely don't understand, because the only thing better for a narcissist than a clueless person is someone who publicly accepts their disorder and will welcome them into their lives despite their behavior.

I thought it was Franny alone giving me brain rot, but 💛Steve has also somehow gotten in there. Hes very sweet and cares a lot! He's so damn annoying. He'd do anything to keep the people he loves safe! Bbgirl the king steve au. He sees people for their worth and doesnt takes for granted what they give him! Say your better than Franny again, I dare you. Hes an extremely capable fighter! I wish Alex was here :/

Keep up the fantastic work queen whatever you give its already in my mouth and Im running off with it

<:3c 💛Steve over all is a pretty nice guy, he just has some flaws! He is arrogant, entitled, wants the feeling of control, and dominance, yes, but narcissistic tendencies (and ofcourse, actual narcissism) doesn't make someone bad!

It only turns bad when he keeps being enabled and it isn't checked... Hence, 💛king!Steve AU! And I argue that you don't have to have narcissism to get that corrupt!

And with another flaw of 💛Steve being ignorant or unaware! he doesn't even comprehend the power imbalance between him and a villager! He set no bounderies because he doesn't know what they are!

But he is also very kind... He died for Franny, hes taking care of a village voluntarily, a family person, likes keeping his loved ones safe, and still gives his praises to people who deserves it! He knows how to have fun, be light hearted, and silly!

There is a reason why Franny loves and serves him <:3 just because he is not humble or completely selfless does not necessarily mean hes bad.

In a rather bad narc high and it’s actually about to get me in trouble. Like, don’t you dare speak to me like that, don’t you dare lie to me. Who do you think you are, speaking to me is a privilege and you are defaming it?

When I get like this, I cut off the “dead weight” and I’m trying so hard to keep those thoughts at bay because I know it’s just being I’m in a very high high, but it’s so maddening‼️

I see a lot of people yell about how narcissism =/= NPD to excuse the use of narcissistic as an insult/label for abusers.

And, to people who think that, do you seriously think those people who yell about narcissists and narc abuse are going to turn around and go "oh, not people with NPD though! 🥰🥰" No! The majority will not! When someone on the internet goes, "This person is a narcissist!" in response to someone being arrogant or egotistical, you think that same person is going to suddenly support pwNPD who are outwardly arrogant? Still no!

It doesn't matter that the two terms used to be separate, that the word narcissistic came before the diagnosis, because thats not how people use it currently. People use the two synonymously, to describe people with NPD, anyone who may show symptoms of NPD, or outright abusers - and if you dont see the problem with lumping all of those together I dont know what to tell you.

"You can be anxious and not have anxiety," "you can be depressed and not have depression." Yes, but there are a few things I want to add to that. Neither anxiety nor depression, (though they also both have their share of misinformation!), are not nearly as stigmatized as cluster b disorders. I'm sorry but I just do not buy that "that person is depressed/anxious" has the same connotations as "that person is a narcissist." Linking to the first paragraph, narcissist is almost soley used to refer to abusers, or people deemed to be "bad" due to arrogance and lack of empathy. I do not buy that you are arguing in good faith if you cannot see the difference in how these terms are used. (And many people do have complaints when people use depressed as a synonym for general sadness, or say "I have anxiety" for occasional feelings of anxiety.) And even if narcissism was just a stand-alone trait and used synonymously with egotism or arrogance - once again linking to the first point again - it's still used negatively and those people will still look at NPD negatively. And, like, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you think people don't link the two together? When people hear narcissist, you think they won't think of NPD? That they'll see the two as completely separate things? C'mon. I'm sure there are more and better thought out arguments against this point because I remember thinking of some but can't remember anymore :(( so that's all on that for now.

I am a person with NPD. I am a narcissist. I am arrogant and egotistical and lack empathy and don't know how to form emotional connections with people. I am not an abuser. I am not a mustache-twirling villain planning how I'm going to "narcissistically abuse [my] next victim". I am literally just some guy, and I think that using the term narcissist as an insult and synonymously to arrogance, with society's current stance on pwNPD and personality disorders, only aids to stigmatization.

so so funny I went to read the handbook on narcissism and npd in an effort to learn more about the disorder & it’s complexities from specialists and what I learned instead is that NOBODY CAN AGREE on what it means AT ALL or anything else about it!!!!!

Me: *Decides to write Jacob as having legitimate NPD rather than wiping away all his canon symptoms*

Me: “Wow, it’s gonna be pretty hard to write an actual narcissist in a manner that you can legitimately sympathize with. And it’s probably gonna be even harder to create one that eventually manages to grow and evolve as a person and learns to maintain healthy (platonic) relationships that aren’t harmful to either side. This is gonna be the toughest thing I’ve ever written, and I’m not sure if I’ll even be able to do it.”

Me: “Oh well, might as well give it a try!”

Me: *Writes an outline explaining how it will fit into the story*

The Story: *Barely has any changes besides little differences in character dynamics and small interactions, but basically no changes in story beats*

Jacob: *Becomes a legitimately more interesting and complex character with a better character arc that the one I originally wrote, and is honestly more likeable to me for some reason*

Jacob and Coco’s Dynamic: *Somehow more healthy and wholesome than before once their character arcs start kicking in* (Jacob’s reasons for caring about Coco are still a bit self centered, but he’s better at treating them correctly. I somehow gave them a mutually positive relationship whilst keeping the NPD part consistent)

Themes and Message: *Appear out of thin air*

The Entire AU: *Improves in every way*

Me: “........................................”

Me: “Huh, that was surprisingly easy.”

"Narcissists will manipulate"

Me: *tries to manipulate MA*

MA: *laughing cause knows I'm being dramatic and can see through it*

Me: *pouting but happy cause knew it would make them smile*

Even if I have the ability to manipulate, which I literally learned at a way too young age, I don't use it unless it's for affection or, in the case above, to make my friend laugh. They know what my manipulation is like cause I've done it enough and so they just find it so funny and laugh at me. And one of the best things for my NPD is making people smile and laugh. Makes me feel so god damn powerful and amazing if someone is smiling or laughing because of me. Especially MA.

For real though, embracing my narcissistic traits has honestly made me really happy. Yeah, I manipulate to try to get affection, because I'm literally so affection deprived despite wanting it. I like praise and being adored and loved and being seen as talented and worthwhile and beautiful. My friend can pick up on when I'm acting more narcissistic for attention and they ask then I say yes that I'm feeling needy.

My NPD traits, the ones so demonized, aren't bad. Sometimes I do lose it and snap or get incredibly huffy and jealous, but we also work through that because we are both trying hard for each other and ourselves. They have their own issues too that they need to sort out.

It's not about being perfectly good, it's about being able to manage it. Most people get angry. What matters is not the absence of getting angry, but managing it and communicating through it and getting to a point where things are worked out. Yet the expectation is instantly changed to the absence of negative reactions when it comes to people with personality disorders, wanting us to repress our "bad parts" to be seen as the good ones that would rather hurt ourselves and are poor little victims. Nah. I lived that way for a long time and all it did was make me have worse episodes because of repressing my natural reactions to fit into what is expected of me.

Anyway, I'm gonna be as narcissistic and a cute lovable hoe that my friend adores because they love seeing me express myself in the way that feels most natural. Plus it helps my mental health so much and that helps both of us.

shoutout to pwNPD in committed relationships of any kind who are constantly expected to be toxic or abusive. that must be so hard, and you deserve better than that. it should be more well known that narcissism doesn't make you inherently a bad person or a bad friend or a bad partner, no matter what anyone says! i love and appreciate you, i hope you're so happy in your relationships and i hope you have a wonderful day

NPD culture is feeling depressed and empty because your FP won’t respond to any of your messages

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i think it is starting to reach an antiquated use in that way, yeah. it’s not as wide spread as something like queer meaning weird, but in many more progressive circles people are shelving it. because calling someone a narcissist is, to the lay man, saying they have NPD (literally a narcissistic personality disorder) and calling someone a narcissist is almost nigh used in a neutral or positive way— it’s always negative, which makes NPD more stigmatized bc then people will always associate NPD/narcissism with those negative insulting meanings.

(that’s not to say you can’t call characters narcissists if you feel it truly does fit, but at least to be mindful of how you speak about it)

the easier solution is, well, to do exactly as you did! instead of just saying “X is a narcissist”, describe the traits the character has (in this case, a high sense of self-worth and need for everyone to agree with them). there might not be a modern perfect one to one with definitions, but synonyms can get close (especially if you’re willing to specify). egotistical, self-righteous, self-centered, haughty, etc, could all work as one-word sub-ins if needed (such as not having the space/time to describe the traits in full)

for full transparency, however, I will say I don’t personally have NPD nor any other cluster B personality disorders, so I may be mislead myself, but that’s what I have picked up from online and a few irl friends.

either way, I hope this ask at least clarifies a few things for you and helps you understand a bit better ^w^! have a great day/night

I've got a couple anons in my inbox about this but yours is the most well-explained so I'm posting it.

Thank you for taking the time to help me understand! I can definitely understand why it'd be shelved. And you're right, it is a little more leg work, but a similar description can definitely be made without the discomfort of a loaded word.

And if any folks who come across this post who have NPD would like to weigh in, feel free. This seems pretty good-faith though, so I'm taking this advice into consideration going forward.

being in love with a narcissist can drive you insane…