So I've been thinking more and more abt the fact that the fandom credits Bruce's incompetence in adulthood to being rich, and sure, it definitely plays a part, but I don't really get...Where it stems from specifically?

First of all, I don't think I've ever even seen a Mention of cleaning, cooking, gardening, driving etc staff; Alfred's our multi purposed, tired king, but he doesn't seem to have any colleagues to speak of?

Second of all; The Waynes truly don't seem like the " having people waiting on them hand and foot" brand of rich people? Like, wasn't their simplicity and relatively down to earth-ness the main reason why Gotham loved them so much??

So! Bruce's isolation and general lack of self-care knowledge can't be all blamed on his money, but the fact that he truly...Didn't have anyone to look at to learn?

Alfred did his best of course, but this is a heavily traumatised 8 year old who refused to look at anyone as family in fear of losing them too for the longest time.

I'm just crying at the thought of Bruce having no one to teach him how to pay bills, or make an appointment at the dentist, or go grocery shopping by himself, to order for himself at restaurants, or cook himself dinner, or keep his place tidy.

Those are all very mundane but precious and valuable activities that parents teach and share with their kids, and Bruce didn't fully get that. So what he did do was make sure his kids knew how to do it all.

Tim doesn't understand why Bruce wants them to try cooking every night. Jason doesn't get why he has to join Bruce, to watch him withdraw money or open an account at the bank

Damian doesn't get why they practice appointments with the vet. Cass doesn't necessarily think a 2 hour tutorial on how to power up the washing machine is crucial to her education.

" Because I don't want you to be like me. And when I'm gone, I want to make sure you can take care of yourself."

That may be the wrong thing to say because the thought of Bruce dying like a normal person makes them sob

Bruce is emotionally a masochist and sexually a sadist comfirmed 🤑😨😱????? Or both, hes batman he can do anything (except therapy)

Lol. You could put it that way, though I think it's a lot more complicated, and at the end of the day, ambiguous. There's multiple ways to interpret this side of Bruce, but while I agree that sadism is easy to see in his actions, masochism is more complicated. Thing is, if Bruce liked pain (emotional or otherwise)... he would probably avoid it.

To Bruce it isn't about what makes him happy, or feel good. The things he puts himself through, the pain he seeks out, are a form of self-punishment (a major function of being Batman in and of itself). The reasons are easily apparent: survivor's guilt, being helpless and unable to save his parents from being killed, thinking of himself as never enough and his body as an instrument only. As Batman, Bruce doesn't even register pain as a limitation or an obstacle, so a lot of the time it isn't that he looks for it... it's just that he doesn't care if it hurts, as long as he achieves his goals. After all, why would it matter that he's hurting, when he doesn't matter as much as the Mission? His Vow, saving others and forever compensating for a loss he couldn't stop, is more important than his own wellbeing and comfort, both on a physical and emotional level.

Put simply, pain is something he feels he deserves for failing. And in so many ways, pain is what fuels Batman; to quote King, he's an "engine that turns pain into hope". But the issue is that, to maintain the status quo, he cannot be anything else, and the engine needs feeding. It needs fresh pain, which is what Bruce keeps providing.

However, it's really hard to draw the line. If you do something like this for so long, if you make doling out pain and suffering pain an integral part of your life and identity, if it's so familiar it becomes a comfort... is that enjoyment? Is that emotional masochism? I just remembered I had a similar discussion before (link here), with some people making very valid and interesting points-- both about Bruce being masochistic, and not. And recently, @psalmsofpsychosis posted a fascinating meta and then web weave about Bruce's relationship to pain (and Joker, who tortures him the most) that got me thinking and rethinking these aspects again (link here). She pointed out that emotionally, Bruce might equate love to pain because the moment he felt the most love was also the moment he was destroyed by grief; when he lost his parents, the people he loved most. God, do check out the post because it does drive me crazy. "Whenever he experiences pain he feels capable of love." @psalmsofpsychosis I'm outside your house, come out, I just wanna talk--

*reads the ten thousandth 'is Batman or Bruce Wayne the mask?' debate*

It's not hard, y'all. Batman is a Hannah Montana situation not a Count of Monte Cristo or Jekyll and Hyde situation, get it right

okay, so The Hyperfixation Is Hyperfixating, clearly, and honestly im just gonna continue going with it bc THEM— *screams* ANYWAYS @frownyalfred uhhhhhh hope you enjoy this as well! without further ado, another idea inspired by the incomparable ✨borderline✨ that just would NOT leave me alone until i got it all down into actual real words:

at some point further in the timeline of borderline'verse, when they've finally got the whole situation mostly under control, the batfam (whenever they accompany bruce, or multiple kids go together by themselves so they're in batclan mode, to do jl/other crossover shit) sort of ends up just doing the whole Bat-Danger-Aura thing, like, Constantly; somewhat unintentionally, but also with not much effort really made to rein it in, bc they do think the reactions are hilarious lol. and like, the thing is, they were ALREADY doing it pre-bond, pretty much right from whenever dick, jason, or both made their first appearance w bruce outside of gotham and first established the existence of mini-bats for the outside world — i mean, that sense of leashed power, as well as the eerie synchronicity and ability to communicate in the tiniest of gestures, was really just a natural consequence of the crime-fighting codependency and the training bruce put them through, originally. (as you may be able to tell, i have an Extremely Normal Amount of Feelings about the concept of cryptid batfam <3). but WITH the bond?? i mean, the kids are all connected to each other, yes, but their primary connections are all to BRUCE, and once they've had time to adjust, and set + actually semi-consistently enforce some basic boundaries, they absolutely take pride in using that to it's fullest advantage (that they're capable of while not intentionally compromising anybody's autonomy, anyways).

and like… OP's already touched on this in earlier chapters briefly a few times, but i NEED a thorough exploration of the idea of bruce seeing this change in them, seeing them subconsciously incorporate even just these little subtle mannerisms, and feeling so fucking guilty about it and spiraling bc he's terrified that all of his self-destructive qualities [that he's painfully aware of in himself] will transfer over to the children, who somehow never seem to realize that how proud and grateful they make him when they demonstrate their DIFFERENCES from him in those regards. and he's just so scared that he'll somehow ruin the few parts of them he thinks he's miraculously managed to avoid 'tainting' with his mentorship/fatherhood until now… …and meanwhile the kids are about to start crying because dad no what the fuck,,, but also facepalming a little bit bc jesus CHRIST, B, did you never even stop to consider the fact that you're just… really fuckin smart and skilled and know how to do a frankly ungodly amount of Cool Shit that we all share an interest in, and we were excited to have the chance to copy more of that shit too?! just, even beyond the great mental image of the Danger Walk, what really got me about that scene was just... his two oldest boys, who are already so much like him, not hesitating for a SECOND to gleefully take the chance to match his behavior even MORE perfectly, and wanting to know where he learned something as (relatively, by their standards) simple as the Serious Business Walk, and wanting to share that memory because it's just fuckin cool, y'all! like, to be clear, i absolutely respect the fact that, at least by the time that they're entering adulthood/in the prime of their mental and physical youth, any of the batkids are pretty much on, or definitely rapidly approaching, the same level as bruce in general badassery — and they probably each have 1 or 2 specific skillsets in which they can and do surpass him. but at the same time, you CANNOT convince me that, at any given point in the established DC timeline, there exists a non-bruce batfam character who can really look at bruce (like his personality, his aforementioned ridiculous skillset, i mean everything about him) and not see at least ONE quality in him that they aspire to. maybe it's something they already have and just can't see in themselves, maybe it's more a projection of something one of their other siblings has and shares with bruce, maybe it's just some skill, some random combat move, that he doesn't need very often, and so when he does use it, it briefly reminds them that "holy shit, he's The Fucking Batman" — but there's always SOMETHING there, some reason that even when they're having trouble communicating or arguing or emotions are running high, they'll never truly lose that respect for him that compels these ridiculously independent, self-sufficient people to willingly follow him: to listen to him, to trust him, and to keep themselves ready to unite under his lead. because nobody can argue that they are a clan, whose purpose comes from being first united under the guidance and protection and love of the bat.

Someone explain to me why Jason feels more Bruce's son than any of the others. Especially considering Jason would have lived and thrived with any parent except Bruce.

Maybe because Bruce is only a father figure to Dick and Tim‚ who loved and preferred their own fathers. Damian's Dad is Dick (I will not be taking questions). Cass wanted Bruce to be her father so bad but he just wouldn't. Even the belated adoption was mere formality. But Jason? He probably did love Willis but he adored Bruce, and Bruce adored him back. I don't think he loved him more than Dick, who will always be his favourite because he was his first partner and child, and because of all the ways he isn't like Bruce. But Bruce and Jason were always father and son without any of the complexity between Bruce and the others.

And Jason is so like Bruce. Everyone says Tim is most like him because of the way their brains work, but it's Dick who actually has been moulded into Batman-lite. Damian is his mother's child; always craving connection and acceptance to anchor him within his inner tempest. He'd die in the kind of darkness Bruce enshrouds himself in. Cassandra has Bruce's drive and focus and inability to conceive of herself as person outside of the mission (although lbr they're all like that. Sigh) But her open compassion, unguarded empathy and playfulness characterizes her more than even Dick.

Jason, otoh, is a thing that will grab a sword by the blade and cut himself to the bone forcing it back. His light and darkness are one and the same. He's the one who can match Bruce's fear and fury and hubris that tries to bend the world into the shape of his choosing with his bare hands.

Idk why I hate Bruce and love Jason. They're both equally myopic and hypocritical and selfish‚ as unable to see past their own trauma, as lacking in self-awareness. Maybe because Jason's just a boy who needs someone on his side while Bruce has too many on his. Maybe because he was born and raised among the people he wants to protect, unlike Bruce, and has so much more excuse for being the way he is. Maybe because he never takes himself so seriously, and uses his sense of humour just like Dick and Steph do, just in an entertainingly assholish fashion.

But if any child could have been biologically Bruce's it would be Jason. Which probably lies at the heart of their eternal conflict. Neither of them will give, neither will blink first. Two men made to forever burn alive.

*busts down your doors* HEY! Long ask for ya

okay so I was rereading your fic where EMS showed up because Dick couldn’t flip on the trampoline (rip) and it got me thinking about routine trauma.

So here’s the thing: I am not EMS. I know three people who are EMS, but my extent of EMS experience comes from one (1) ride along and lurking on EMS subreddits. Those guys are a hoot. Great memes. Anyways.

A comment stuck out to me: “You haven’t truly lived the job until you’re eating a gas station burrito next to a dead body”. I’ve seen a bunch like that. Nonchalance and dark humor because well, that’s their job. Gore is the norm. Sure, depending on the area, your usual calls might just be lift assists, but other areas are neck deep in gang violence and violent crime.

A pretty common post on that subreddit is also, sadly, “I just got a call that’s never bothered me before but all of a sudden I’m broken” or “I’ve never had a problem running this type of call before but all of a sudden it just hit me.” Delayed trauma is a bitch. Someone pointed out that if a civilian saw a fatal car accident with multiple corpses, they’d be in therapy and given support and it’d be a huge deal. With EMS, they’re just expected to deal with it. (EMS mental health is getting better- there are helplines and resources and first responder focused therapies- but it’s still a developing field)

ANYWAYS, now that I’ve given you a crash course on the EMS mental health crisis (someone should really write a feature on EMS in Gotham those fuckers would be crazy and I love them already), my point is, how would this apply to the bats? Seeing bodies is treated as very much the norm to them, but do you think it ever just… catches up? The impact of seeing corpses day after day? Do you think they have to fake being fine and tough during those times because well, “everybody else in the family is fine with it, I’m not going to be a liability/burden/weak/etc”

Do you think Bruce, the goddamn batman, who shouldn’t be ruffled by anything, ever just feels something crack inside when he looks at a little boy who could have grown up healthy and strong like his Jason, had (Bruce) someone been there for him? and then he can’t work cases with kids for a week?

This is such an excellent ask, thank you so much for gracing my inbox with it!

It's a very good question. I'm also on a lot of those subreddits (needed to do some research for that fic) and the discussion in those forums and on TikTok is like you described, a kind of practiced desensitization to all gore and suffering in order to survive in their job.

What I've seen from those discussions (and my EMT friend) is an almost sub-conscious trend where they allow themselves the "thing" that breaks them, and they push a lot of that trauma and emotion onto that thing. Like an EMT saying they don't do kids, or they don't do gunshots to the eye, etc. And they'll sob like a baby on those calls, while remaining stone-faced and level-headed through the triple homicide.

I'm just theorizing here, but I imagine the Batfamily uses similar coping skills -- pushing all that trauma and suffering into a box which cracks only under limited, defined circumstances. And they break or snap only under those conditions, because, subconsciously, they allowed themselves to.

So yes, Bruce might be 99% fine with most of the bodies he sees, but there might be a little boy who has a detail (like Jason's dark hair) that just slams into him out of nowhere.

PTSD and trauma literally change the structure of the brain. Individuals react differently to trauma after that, but there does appear to be a "desensitizing" effect with repeated trauma, as the body tries to compensate.

I agree that the Gotham EMTs must be some crazy motherfuckers. They probably deal with 6x the normal shit EMTs deal with in other cities. They probably take on a lot more trauma and burn out quicker than other EMTs, too.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? I admit I don't cover PTSD explicitly in a lot of my fics.

"#Alfred basically catches a lamb and goes

#''you're a beautiful wolf; i know you are; now you're gonna bite my hand until you draw blood so we both believe it;

#because that's the way we know how to be men.''

#and then 10 years down the line he looks at Bruce and he whispers in horror; ''that's a wolf''

#GIRL YES HE IS; YOU MADE HIM ONE. IT WAS YOU"

Your tags are so- Idk I don't have the words. No wait I DO-

THIS IS FREAKING BEAUTIFUL OMG

The way Bruce wasn't born with sharp teeth and claws to defend himself against the world. The place he was born into removed any need to grow them, but at the same time the place he was born into was the catalyst for him to turn into stone. Hard, unyielding to pressure and with its own jagged edges that you can hit until your knuckels bleed.

But the thing about stone is that you can chip away at it until it looks like what you want.

So Bruce was a lamb at the beginning, possessing talc for a heart, easy to rub to dust, but after the murders, he was molded into something different. He grew teeth and claws so big and strong it became difficult to be gentle, his heart was rubbed to dust and reformed and compressed and rubbed to dust and reformed and compressed until it turned into a diamond.

Alfred taught him how to be a wolf but didn't account on what would happen once Bruce's claws were bigger than his own.

CAN YOU TALK MORE ABOUT BRUCE AND ALFRED'S DYNAMIC PLEASE? You're literally rearranging my brain chemistry as I'm typing, wow. This feels so freaking strange. Thank you so so SO much

I wish you an AMAZING day

GOOD MAD MONDAY NOON TO YOU ANON YOU'RE KILLING ME. Like i'm over here lying face flat on the ground, head fucking full 99 thoughts per second this ride is going straight to hell—

You actually made them sound a lot like the Pygmalion myth, which is so right and true and also a very delicately apt interpretation of the way Bruce and Alfred's dynamic unfolds, particularly in Bruce's childhood, and particularly as portrayed in the Gotham series (which is my all time favourite Bruce&Alfred dynamic anyway, so excuse me for being annoying and immediately nosedive down that rabbithole)

See, to me the thing is, i dont think Bruce and Alfred understand each other at all. They're cut from very different clothes, and Alfred doesn't understand what Bruce /is/, but he understands what Bruce /can become/, maybe even what he's supposed to become, Bruce is the fifth element to him. Combine that lack of understanding and all the love and affection Alfred holds for Bruce and of course he makes a project of perfection out of him; Alfred molds and makes Bruce. Batman as a persona and as a purpose precisely exists *because of the way Alfred raises Bruce*, this is something that Gotham TV puts extra emphasis on. In many ways Alfred does carve Bruce into an idea of perfection, *his* idea of perfection, and Bruce lets him too. This is where stuff get a bit complicated though; Alfred is someone who struggles with his own humanity and darker side. He's so loving and loyal, but he's also bitter and mean with a vicious bite and he handles Bruce with such cold hands sometimes, and he hates every second of it, he hates his own humanity. So he pushes Bruce to get rid of his too, and they have this constant push and pull because Bruce has those exact traits. they're similar not in what they own about themselves, but in their shadows, when the sun shines on them their flawed humanity has the exact same shape and they both don't want a shadow; eventually the way they resolve this is by standing back to back and protecting each other and now they share their shadows and it's not so scary anymore. The Pygmalion myth as a parallel interpretation of their narrative fits so darn well because you are right, Bruce is made into stone and Alfred sculpts him to something beautiful and almost horrifying, almost inhuman, he sometimes forgets that Bruce is a person and not an idea, and it shows. But Bruce breaks mold, he always does, he forces Alfred to live with his own humanity and Bruce's, and this brings up a lot of grief for Alfred, but he loves Bruce so he finds a way to live with it and he does.

The Lamb/wolf metaphor is a different face to this same transformation process; in the early years Alfred has little space for Bruce's terrifying softness, but neither does Bruce. Bruce is scared of his own vulnurability and tenderness, this lamb *wants* to become something else, something less weak and helpless, something that could've saved his parents. He doesn't want to become a wolf persay, but the thing is, he has the makings. This is the reason Alfred can bring it out of him; he very much has the makings of a wolf. to juxtapose it with the pygmalion allegory; you cannot carve out of the stone what is not already in it. (this does bring up the question wether Bruce was ever a lamb at all, but that's a different topic for another day✨️)

anyway yep, i love your mind Anon, and thank you for the question! Hope you have an absolutely wonderful day too ❤️❤️

Jason Todd is my favourite character in all of DC but:

If someone doesn't want to kill, you can't ask, tell, or expect them to kill for you

Or, you can, but you'd be a complete asshole. The only time those expectations are valid is when a person signed up for a job where killing is expected (e.g. the military).

But as we all know, Batman is not the military nor the police. He only has one rule—or only one rule he truly cares about—and that's to not kill.

And frankly, I don't care what his reasons are for that; the bottom line is that he doesn't want to kill and we should respect it. Because at the end of the day, when you take a life, you're the one who's fully responsible for it. You're the one who has to live with it. And because of that, nobody should force you to do it.

Look, like I said, Jason Todd is my favourite character too. But that doesn't mean I don't find it disturbing or unfair when he expects Bruce, and only Bruce, to kill the Joker for him.

Do I find it understandable and human? Of course! Jason died horribly and gruesomely to a madman who'd do the same to anyone else so long as he finds it funny enough. It's only natural for him to want and expect someone—especially his father, the one he loved the most and the one he'd been searching through the thin crack of the door for even as the countdown struck zero—to put an end to the clown permanently, but. Does that mean he should? Absolutely not, and I think it's straight-up awful that so many people in this fandom encourage this take.

And the kicker is, if Catherine was still alive, if Catherine was the sort to become a vigilante and this happened to the both of them, do you think Jason would have the same expectations for her? I bet not. Not because he's sexist, but because Bruce is Batman and we take Batman for granted.

Yeah, you heard me. We take him for granted. We expect too much out of him.

This has been a slow-coming realisation, but it comes after a particularly harrowing conversation with my sister during which she told me that I was taking her for granted and I surprised myself by agreeing with her. I won't go into the nitty gritty details but what I took away from the conversation was that just because someone can do something, and you yourself would do that something for them, that does not mean you should automatically expect them to do the same for you—especially if it goes against their character and what they stand for.

This goes the same for Bruce. Just because he's capable of murder and is justified in doing it, that does not mean that he should do it if he doesn't want to. And just because Jason would do it for him if the reverse happened, that still does not mean he should do it if he doesn't want to (which Bruce would have never asked for anyway because that's just not part of his character). No matter their similarities, Jason and Bruce are two completely different people and they can't be expected to do and choose the same things.

Batman, of course, chooses to take responsibility for many, many things, most of which are completely optional. He's a billionaire, he doesn't have to help his city by spending his nights saving people, facing the worst the city has to offer, and risk his life and sanity on the daily. He's the CEO of one of the most wealthy companies in the world, he doesn't have to uplift his city by donating to orphanages, hospitals, and charities, creating programmes to help the youth, the poor, the disabled, ex-convicts, and other minorities, as well as funnel any struggling person he encounters to his company so that they can be assured of a job. He was a single and free man, he didn't have to agree to care for several angry, reckless, and bitter kids with death in their hearts.

All of the shit he does is completely optional! Yet, the one thing he explicitly chooses not to do, the one thing he absolutely refuses to take responsibility for and takes great pains to avoid, is killing.

And I get it, this is murder we're talking about here. You can't just expect people to be just okay with doing that, even if that person is a demented dude in a bat costume.

Actually, why are we expecting so much out of such a person? Cause Batman can do anything? Cause Jason is his son and Gotham is his city? Cause if given half a chance, we wouldn't let Jason down? Cause if something happened to us, we hope that we mattered enough to someone for them to avenge us, no matter if doing so would completely destroy them? Tear them apart from the inside-out? No matter that we're already dead and they'd have to live the rest of their lives like that?

Just something to think about.

At any rate, I think it's wrong to look at someone and expect them to kill for you. If Gotham wants Joker gone, they're just gonna have to do it themselves cause expecting a volunteer to do this extra shit they never asked for and explicitly does not want to do is more than just appalling.

It's cruel.

The day comic bros understand that family and familial love is the entire point of Batman is not the day I will know peace but it is the day I will begin to heal

Like oh there's this little rich kid who's beloved by his parents, who aren't perfect but are there for him. And then they die, some freak event that no one could predict. Family ripped away from a young and innocent kid. He trains, he trains hard through his trauma and his pain at losing his family, searching and grasping for any reason at all to keep going,

And he decides to harness his greatest fear as a child before The Incident to make sure that what happens to him happens to no kid again.

He becomes the shadows but he is impossibly warm. He can deck a hardened criminal with enough power to put them out of commission for good, but he will sit and comfort a crying child who doesn't understand the world of violence around them. He'll walk prostitutes on the street home so they feel safe. He'll keep toys and candy in his tool belt alongside his weapons to give to scared kids. He'll put his money where his mouth is, even while the world perceives him as foolish and carefree.

And he'll even take in a little boy who, despite Batman's best wishes, goes through what he did.

And he'll learn to love that kid and he'll give that kid everything he can, all the love and care and understanding and acceptance that he was robbed of at the same age. They'll go out together, a man and something that could be his son, helping those who can't help themselves.

Batman will take his greatest trauma in life and he'll heal it, he'll start anew, with friends and family that he achieves on his own. With a son just like he once was.

Batman is not a cold blooded killer, he is not unaffectionate and cruel. He does not hate the Robins. Being kind, warm, strong, and caring to those under his wing is what batman is about

Desperately reminding everyone that Jason never intended to kill Tim Drake.

If Jason wanted him dead, he would be dead.

Teen Titans 2003 #29

He was testing Tim’s mettle and walked away with a good impression of the kid. That is all.

And no, Batman does not think Jason poses a threat to Tim Drake.

For us to know for certain that Batman does think Jason poses a threat to Tim Drake, Batman would have to tell us and the only opportunity he has for that is in UTRH. He doesn’t say anything like that then, and any time it comes up afterwards, especially in comics post-2016 after the 52 reboot, is to be ignored for post-Crisis continuity.

He also does not think Jason killed Dick Grayson or an entire city.

Jason clearly thinks it is ironic that on the day he and Batman were meant to finally hash out their differences, Dick probably died.

Batman is also very clearly not blaming Jason for the destruction of the City. He’s just preparing for an attack. When he does finally talk to Jason, it is never about Tim Drake. It’s not even clear if Batman even knows that Tim Drake was attacked.

Despite Dick’s death, Batman still wants to save Jason. But he doesn’t. Instead he does this:

Batman does not even react with horror at hitting his only surviving son. The only son who came back from the dead, mind you.

He just stands there as his son dies (again) and the Joker laughs at him, which is designed to push the theme that Batman fails.

But he does react to horror at the thought of The Joker dying. He does try to stop that.

In conclusion, Batman did not know about or even think about Tim Drake while dealing with Jason in UTRH. Batman did not blame Jason for Dick’s death or the destruction of Bludhaven. If you do think he blames Jason for Dick or thinks Jason is a threat to Tim, you’re reading too much into it.

...and probably confusing this version of Jason with the absolute dramatic fool in BFTC. No one likes that book. Just burn it.

UTRH Batman is the “don’t let emotions interfere with your mission unless it’s your trauma being recreated in front of your face” kind taken to the extreme to fit the real message of the book:

The Batman is a failure because of his antiquated moral code.

“I don’t know what clouds your judgement worse. Your guilt or your antiquated sense of morality.” - Jason Todd, Under the Red Hood

You broke DC with this one Judd, and it has never recovered.

Bruce/Talia: You Can't be a Power Couple When One is trying to control the Power of the Other

I think the reason why Bruce and Talia can never be THE Goth(am), Morticia and Gomez-esque power couple is because Talia thinks Bruce is weak while Bruce wants to control Talia's power. The main difference (among many) of Bruce and Talia's idea of justice is that Talia prioritizes the destination/end result of what a world without injustice looks like while Bruce emphasizes the process/journey. "Whatever it takes; fight fire with fire" vs "a foundation built on bodies crumbles beneath the weight of what the future holds". Bruce's no kill rule and moral high ground crumbles when confronted with how much injustice he allows in "his" city. The moral reasoning that if Bruce kills one person he wouldn't be able to stop, who's really guilty or innocent, etc, doesn't indicate he has superior morals to Talia, or others like Huntress or Red Hood. It shows that he lacks the control to stop...which is a him problem and not an everyone else problem.

In an alternative (better) version of Red Hood's origin, where Talia isn't written as power hungry/Madonna-Whore-d, I see her looking at Jason, then at Damian (the parallel world be delicious if DC would fucking acknowledge the timelines match up) and just seethe. Not only as a mother but as a harbinger of justice. How can she respect a man who would not avenge his son? How is Bruce her moral equal in any way when he can't be bothered to end the Joker who's killed hundreds of people and has shown no remorse or mercy? Bruce carried and buried the adoptive son he chose to take in and didn't lift a finger to prevent it from happening to another family. Talia resurrected Jason and gave him the power to liberate others from his fate.

Gomez sees Morticia and swoons in her sublime presence. Bruce sees Talia and frowns when the heat of her resolve like magma doesn't slow and cool before him.

Alright excuse my compulsion to situate everything within a timeline, but. I love that now there's more than one story taking place before The Killing Joke that establishes Bruce empathizing and relating to Joker, and that Zdarsky clearly took inspiration from the one before his own for this aspect of Bruce and Joker's relationship.

The events of Zdarsky's I Am A Gun take place while Dick is a boy and still Robin, early in Batman's career... and so does Darwyn Cooke's amazing-showstopping-spectacular Batman: Ego. In Ego, we get another instance of Bruce's mind being split in two; there being a separation between Bruce and Batman, with the embodiment of Batman arguing for Joker's murder:

-- Batman: Ego

But Bruce says no. He says he isn't a killer:

Forever obsessed with how Darwyn Cooke so efficiently conveys how Bruce understands Joker, and relates to him. He knows Joker chose madness to deal with tragedy, that he was faced with the same choice Bruce was, and that Bruce could've become him. Because that's what Bruce lapsing into laughter and acting like Joker shows.

But the story is centred around Bruce in Batman: Ego, while in I Am A Gun... perhaps the best line to summarize it is Bruce thinking to himself, "Is the Joker broken too?" in Batman (2016) #128. It's not just the two facets of Bruce vs. Batman in this story, it's also the two facets of Joker: a human being, and a monster.

The conflict in Bruce is mirrored in Joker, and I am kissing Zdarsky on the mouth for acknowledging it and portraying it so beautifully. There's a monster in Bruce made out of hollow anger, and there's a human being crying for help buried inside Joker:

-- Batman (2016) #130 -- I Am A Gun

"He'll fix you." And Martha being the one to say this, the one who becomes Joker herself in a different world, a different Universe... perhaps it's not intentional, but it feels so relevant. In Flashpoint, Thomas Wayne is a Batman who kills. In New 52's Earth 2, he's a Batman who killed Joker himself. And in Bruce's head, it's Thomas Wayne arguing for Joker's death.

But I just love that keeping both I Am A Gun and Ego in mind, knowing that these thoughts and emotions were there for Bruce for years, makes The Killing Joke... even more poignant.

Bruce has been thinking about this for a long time. And all of it coming to a head with the iconic offer for help, with the one time Bruce offered Joker his hand despite what Joker had just done...

-- Batman: The Killing Joke

[clenches fist] It's beautiful.

Which parallel do you think is more important: Dick being the same age as Bruce when their parents died, or the age gap between Bruce and Dick being the same as the age gap between Dick and Damian? I think with the few canon ages at different events that we're given (Bruce being 25 when he becomes Batman and getting Dick a year later, Damian being 14, Bruce being 8 when his parents died, etc.) both cannot currently be true.

Of the two of them, the first one. It's more important to draw parallels between Bruce and Dick to explain why Bruce took Dick in and how Bruce sees himself in Dick (as well as how Bruce's actions prevent Dick from becoming like him) than it is to draw parallels between Bruce and Dick to explain why Dick took care of Damian after Bruce "died."

Part of Bruce and Dick's whole thing is that Dick is the kind of man Bruce wishes he could be, but the only reason Dick is able to be that person is because Bruce saved him from ever becoming like himself. It's a powerful story of being able to save the child you were and dealing with your own trauma and grief by enabling someone else to find the closure you never could. Bruce and Dick both being 8/9 when their parents died emphasizes that connection point in a way that few other things ever will.

Meanwhile, I don't think the age gaps between Bruce and Dick and Dick and Damian need to be the same and honestly I don't think they should be. The only thing it really adds is some extra angst as Dick realizes that he's the same age as Bruce was when Bruce took him in and giving him a tiny "Damian's my responsibility, I'll do right by him like Bruce did with me" boost. Which frankly, he doesn't need! That realization and connection point already exists without that added coincidence.

its so fucking tragic that bruce's grief shaped his entire being until he's so trigger shy when it comes to loving anyone that he compulsively creates these 'contingency plans' for when they inevitably turn against him or die or otherwise leave him. he preemptively finds all these reasons to not get close, not to care, not to grieve so hard when the inevitable comes.

clark is a coworker not a friend. dick is a temporary ward, replaceable. jason and steph and damian are reckless they bring it on themselves. etc etc it's why his love interests are all rogues, because to love them like that he needs to know they'll hurt him so he won't grieve when they're gone.

bruce wayne is never not mourning every person in his life like they're already dead

It's as if Jason recognizes that he's practically living in the Wild West and Bruce is trying desperately to reject that. Jason can accept it because all it means is that he isn't safe, no one is. But how is Bruce supposed to accept that? Man with a complex like his with resources like his, if he doesn't believe in the system -what is supposed to be the voice of people- how can he justify not just taking over? How can he justify not becoming a benevolent dictator and building a kingdom out of the frontier?

Bruce Wayne in A Great Day for Everyone (abridged)

Source is Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #100