#comic meta
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Namor & Talokan
So these are my thoughts upon watching Black Panther: Wakanda Forever twice now.
I loved Namor. I truly feel they captured the characterization so well in so many ways and it’s amazing how good of a job they did in this movie, how Tenoch owns that role, how perfect everything is. This is what it means to adapt a character, changing things but keeping the essence of the character and tbh the changes were such a great choice because in the end it served to enhance the character and bring him to new audiences and fans to enjoy and he is still NAMOR. So many people complaining about how bad it is they stripped Namor of everything obviously think that Namor begins and ends with Atlantis and know nothing of his character.
The overarching theme of Mothers, and their children, Namor & Fen, Shuri & Ramonda, play a central role amidst all the grief of the past/losing someone. Colonization is the enemy, not Namor who was just Wakanda’s antagonist.
Talokan mirrors Wakanda but asks the question: What if Colonization had won, what happens to the survivors who escaped? Wakanda never had to deal with the Invasion of their homeland, while Talokan did.
In the comics Namor is often the “Voice of Reason” when placed within a group dynamic, such as the Illuminati, it’s Namor who points out their plans are stupid or finds the most straightforward path to his goals, he is a very honest character and doesn’t hold back his words/thoughts. So it makes sense that just as Coogler holds up Talokan to mirror Wakanda so he would hold Namor up as a mirror to Shuri and gives her the option that others in Wakanda could not, to take on the world and give into those feelings of Rage. Ramonda (and by extension Wakanda) wants Shuri to grieve properly in a healthy and begin to move on with her life, which Shuri cannot do because in part she blames herself for not being able to save T’Challa. Survivors guilt is strong within her even though she really couldn’t do anything but that’s how guilt works. Which plays off really well because Coogler wasn’t afraid to let Namor be exactly like his comic counterpart and follow through on his word/promises even if that meant he was going to do things no Morally White/Good aka Hero character would do, since Namor is a Morally Grey character he has the space to make and follow through on choices he finds benefits himself and his people.
Spoilers beneath the cut, so this is your warning.
While Namor is much older and had time to rule over his people and deal with the grief of losing his mother for hundreds of years he chose Rage & Vengeance as his crutch to get through losing her. He focuses his anger on the world. He isn’t wrong, the Spanish Colonizers are the root cause for all the evil done to him and his people and by extension the surface world. Namor is a Hero to his people and he is their Protector. Which means he will be viewed as an enemy of the surface world. Namor was superhero comics first anti-hero and Tenoch!Namor is the same.
As a general overview before I get into details, Namor’s arc is very complete. His goal was an alliance with Wakanda, he makes it clear the first time he comes to ask them for help because Namor does not ask for help, not in the comics, not unless he trusts that person or is willing to trust that person. Namor + Trust is a very important trait. Listen if you think Namor couldn’t find the scientist and kill Riri where she stood on his own than you don’t know how capable Namor is. He and his people are not primitive/lacking of skills or smarts, he doesn’t need Wakanda’s help but he recognizes it would be smarter in the long run to have an ally that would empathize with him and his people. He chooses Wakanda because its the Nation his mother told him about, and he recognizes that they and Talokan are both very similar. Namora and Attuma were literally using a hunting trick for Riri, have someone else draw her out into the open before taking them down. Why else would they have been waiting close enough to take Riri if Namor had asked the Wakandans to bring her to him? If Namor had truly trusted them to find AND bring Riri to him he would have waited instead he had a back up plan which were Attuma and Namora. Namor’s trust of the surface, even Wakanda only goes so far.
Let me get into details. You don’t know how much it’s killing me to not have pics to go along with my text but I will have to wait till the movie is out on dvd to be able to gif/screencap everything.
I’m starting off with character design first:
Wings.
His wings are AMAZING. There was no easy Superman gliding and swooping here! His air walking was astounding, at times it felt like he had to really push himself to get up to a certain height level like a bird putting more effort into its wings getting off the ground vs catching a air current. He was so agile and FAST, turning on a whim and aware of his surroundings, honestly some parts felt like he was just swimming or dancing through the air, the way he twists his body/hips to change positions. I am so happy they included the wings because it’s so important to his character.
His wings flap rapidly like a hummingbird, and it’s always been one of my personal headcanons that’s how Namor’s wings move and it was really cool to see! There’s a sound you hear when his wings move, like a rattlesnake/buzzing, I think its because he is called K’uk’ulkan, Feather Serpent God, so that rattlesnake buzzing is a nod to the serpent aspect of that.
Edit: AresisKander on Twitter added this comment after reading this post and I am including their comment:
About the sound of the wings or when he flies, I think the reference is to the ayoyotes or chachayotes many people in Mexico still use to do/reenact traditional dancing
A photo of Ayoyotes.
/End Edit.
I did some searching online today to try and figure out what bird/feather pattern they modeled Namor’s wings off of because in the movie it’s not pure white wings and had some light patterns of grey/light brown with the white. I think its modeled after the Osprey (Pandion Haliaetus).
The parts I’ve highlight here are what stood out to me the most in the movie, the tops of his wings had the same white feathery look and his lower feathers had that pattern. The bird makes sense for Namor as the Osprey is found near rivers/bodies of water and is a fish eating bird of prey, with excellent eyesight to see underwater to hunt their fish. They are excellent divers too.
Tenoch’s ears were so cute, and while Namor has pointed ears, the rest of his people do not, so some people like Namora, use jewelry to give themselves the pointed ears like Namor, others use jewelry on the outside of their ear to mimic the pointed ear shape.
GILLS.
THE TALOKANIL (or is it Talokaneil?) HAVE GILLS. I AM SO HAPPY THEY KEPT THAT FROM THE COMICS!!! The Gills have always set Marvel’s Atlanteans apart from DC, and even Namor has gills in the comics even though artists forget to draw it but it was an important plot point in a couple of comics. Seeing their water masks covered not just their mouth/nose but also the gills on their necks was so cool. I can’t wait until high res stills come out so I can show you all how cool their costumes were! the gill masks were soooo pretty!!! There is just so much detail on their look/costumes/mayan influences that I can’t do it justice with words but it was beautiful, Namora had a few outfit changes through the movie which I loved.
Speaking of Namora, she was not at all like her comic counterpart and like I guessed before she is basically a mix of Namora and Andromeda. It makes sense why they wouldn’t use the character Andormeda since she is Attuma’s daughter in the comics so they wouldn’t have time to explain why his daughter is the same age as him etc. since comic atlanteans are long lived and look the same ageish. Andromeda operates as Namor’s right hand woman, the captain of his guards/army, a highly respected close friend and long time ally who would always fight beside Namor and offer advice.
Namora is smart, loyal, and such a badass in the movie. Mabel played her beautifully and I adored her. Anyways I loved this interpretation of Namora and I hope we get to see more of her and Attuma. Attuma’s character does not get alot of lines, we have no clue to his motivations and if he hates Namor or not like in the comics, in the comics they were enemies, but the recent King in Black: Namor tells the story of Attuma’s origin and friendship with Namor before it all went bad.
Namora, Attuma, and Namor all wear different outfits throughout the movie. The character designs were brilliant, and the costumes were gorgeous, so I really hope they win an award for that again.
It also feels like they each have an “Avatar” of sorts. Namor is the Feathered Serpent, Attuma is a Shark, and Namora is a Lion Fish, remember the Lion Fish is a deadly venomous creature so those spines Namora wears are a warning threat to her enemies.
The Plot
I will be focused on the Namor/Talokan plot mainly.
The first scene we get with Namor is literally ripped from the pages of Marvel Comics (1939) #1. In the comic, two divers go exploring a ship and Namor darts by too fast for them. Later Namor cuts the lines of one diver killing him, then goes after the second diver.
In the movie the divers are sent to check on a drill in the ocean, it had struck vibranium, which the Americans were after since they had a Vibranium detection machine. Namor swims by too fast for them to see, they are too focused on their find, however one diver’s life support signal stops, when the scientist lady on the ship asks the second diver to turn around to check on her partner and see if he was ok, she turns only to find cut life support lines. Namor comes for her next. I want to say very quickly that while Vibranium was included in the backstory/plot of the movie it also has it’s roots in the comics but only since the 90s:
Golden age - two divers on an exploratory mission - Marvel Comics (1939) #1
Silver age - expanded: two divers were sent there because the captain of the ship was Captain Leonard McKenzie on his return to the Antarctic waters after decades to search for Fen. The Sub-Mariner (1968) #44
Modern Age - The original cause of two ships coming to Antarctica is because the first one (The Endurance) was on a mission to find Vibranium, while the second one {The Oracle, Namor’s father’s ship) was on a mission to find The Endurance. Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #52
So as you can see they just cut off the Leonard part since Fen’s origins have changed as well, and they kept the scene from the first comic and their motivation is Vibranium. There was a very Depths!Namor vibe to the character which I adored because Sub-Mariner: The Depths is such a good comic.
Meanwhile above there is a siren song luring the crew to their deaths in the sea. I loved the Sirens, they are a highlight of the Talokanil. The ship is now under attack by the Talokanil, and the scientist lady escapes into a helicopter. Attuma and Namora arrivals are great! The Talokanil are efficient at their tasks.
Namora watches as the helicopter goes higher into the sky but doesn’t do anything because she knows Namor will stop them. The first scene showing Namor’s full strength is amazing, it cannot be understated how Namor is a Power in the comics, he is literally called a one man navy. Namor is the guy the other characters call in when they need the Big Guns. He wrecks that helicopter and the scene ends with a visual of Namor hover over the sea in the dark, it really reminds me of this visual.
Marvel Fanfare (1982) #16
So as you see Namor has been called Devil, Sea Devil, Sea Demon in the comics which makes the Spanish Priest’s words to a young Namor really hit home because humans have always viewed him as something not human, evil, and otherworldly even though they themselves are not good people.
The next time we see Namor he is rising out of the water in Wakanda to speak with Ramonda and Shuri, he carries with him a shell, a conch shell, which in can be symbolic of a declaration of war or something else depending on the context as written here and here by Aztec Empire on twitter. The soundtrack to Namor’s arrival is freaking awesome, and Namor’s first show of pure astonishment/wonder at Wakanda is so endearing. Alot of people complained about this online saying he wouldn’t do that, but the truth is Namor does know how to smile, he loves the wonder and beauty of Nature, he isn’t a scowling angry fish man all the time. Tenoch’s micro expressions are amazing, he goes from wonder to being a Threat in the space of seconds. What I really like is how he captured Namor’s humor which is not an easy thing to do since in the comics Namor has a very dry gallows humor that makes people around him think its very serious but he’s actually telling the joke more to himself than for the benefit of others. Namor says “- I took care of it” meaning he totally killed all those people but he’s acting like it was nothing more than a small chore or something. lol. Also there is something else I wanted to point out about the beginning of this scene, Ramonda and Shuri are alerted by elephants who sensed Namor and ran, in the comics when Namor is running amok in New York for the first time he releases several wild creature from the zoo, which also had elephants. Now I don’t know if that was in reference to that scene in Marvel Mystery Comics (1939) #8 but it did remind me of it.
And as stated earlier, Namor was willing to extend his trust but still Attuma and Namora followed Shuri and Okoye in the later scenes.
MCU!Attuma is strong and a capable warrior, I greatly enjoyed him baiting Okoye on the bridge into a fight. The way he looks at Riri (whom Namora told him to kill) and decides she isn’t going anywhere so he might as well have a fight for fun with Okoye was Peak Character for him. Namora is annoyed and snaps at him to stop playing around. I love their dynamic with Attuma playing the Strong Muscle character and Namora though tiny was clearly in charge. Both of them have consistent characterizations, both are very loyal to Talokan and they get stuff done. Attuma is 100% ready to kill Riri and so is Namora. They are looking out for the future of their people. BUT when Shuri asks them to take them to Talokan alive they confer with each other, they treat Shuri like the royalty she is and they take her wish seriously since they also know Namor wants an alliance with Wakanda. If Namor had ordered them to kill the scientist at all costs, I don’t doubt they would have been done there on the bridge.
When Shuri and Riri are in Talokan, Shuri is treated as according to her social status, a Princess, with all the respect given to her from one Nation to another which really stood out to me. They give her traditional clothing, and they aren’t unknind, they care for Riri and give her food while Shuri goes to speak with Namor. I’m just pointing out that Coogler isn’t depicting the Talokanil as some hostile people who are unreasonable in wanting to kill Riri, they are only hostile when the safety of their people is in question.
The biggest change I would say character wise in regards of the transition from the Atlanteans to the Talokanil is that the Atlanteans actively hated and looked down on Namor for being half human/atlantean, its a major source of isolation for Namor. Namor’s character is rooted in his biracialness, is rooted in being a man of two worlds without fitting into either world and struggling with his two people. Changes seem to have taken away that biracial aspect in the form of two different races of human/atlantean since it seems Namor is a full Mayan/Talokan now however it doesn’t mean it’s lost, Namor is never a part of the Talokanil proper, he is respect and revered yes but also set apart in isolation because of his slowed aging meaning he would outlive all of his people, and that he is seen as their deity. When Shuri meets Namor he is open and honest with her. He RESPECTS her in a way the Elders of her people didn’t, because they saw her as a child. He respects her because she is a Princess and because Namor respects women. I know there is alot of bad Fanon out there regarding Namor’s treatment of women in the comics but as a person who has read all of his comics, so much of it comes down to out of context weird fanon and also some moments of really bad writing however Comic!Namor was raised by his single mother Fen and has great respect for women, so of course Namor would respect Shuri and treat her in accordance with her social stature.
I’ve already begun to see NamorShuri shipping discourse so let be preface this by saying I literally do not care. I don’t care what people ship. However this meta is my, a comic fan’s, thoughts on Namor’s character and the rest of the movie, and I would appreciate it if people don’t use my words out of context nor they drag me into any shipping wars. Once one of my other metas was used out of context to promote racism and I don’t appreciate that. Also I personally believe that shipping is not the end of all things. I believe shipping is a fun addition to the source BUT it’s NOT the end all reason behind character’s actions. So people saying Namor was totally hitting on Shuri, or flirting with her, or whatever, that’s fun fanon for you but I personally do not see it that way.
Namor is charismatic in the comics and Tenoch!Namor captures Namor’s charisma, anger, sorrow, and light heartedness but most of all he captures Namor’s loneliness. When Namor opens up to Shuri and tells her the story of his people, of his mother, he is trying to find a connection, some empathy, a friend.
Princess Fen and her people.
They don’t say Fen is royalty or some high ranking woman in their Nation, however they don’t not say that either. Until we get more information about her then I will only speak on what I saw. Fen and her people are suffering from smallpox brought over by the Spanish Invaders, her people are dying, and she is pregnant. We see Fen place a stone, a funeral rite, into the mouth of a dead man who was placed in a dug grave, he had already passed. The unnamed man died of smallpox, and I personally believe this could have been Namor’s father but also it simply could have been a person who was her family/friend/she had some connection to since we aren’t exactly sure who he was. In the comics Fen is the most beautiful Atlantean ever, and I love the actress they chose for Fen, Maria’s beauty takes my breath away to be honest. In the comics Fen meets Namor’s father after she was sent to spy on the Americans and she falls in love with him. She is strong, smart, and fierce princess of her people. I have very strong feelings about Fen as she is one of my favorite characters.
The Shaman creates the potion/serum they drink to turn into water breathers/Talokanil, however Fen hesitates because her concern is her child. The Shaman promises her that this will save her child and her and then swears that her son will be their new king since he will be the first born of their new people. This new backstory for Namor fits the tone of the movie. I loved both Fen and the Shaman, their actors were so good.
Fen being a central character in Namor’s life is so important and I’m really glad that the movie didn’t skip over that. Fen is a guiding force, the reason why Namor is the way he is in the comics, her love and protection, even her naming him “Namor” which in the comics/atlantean it means “Avenging Son” all shaped Namor into the character he is. Fen and Namor are so important to me.
Namor speaks about how he grew up slowly and his mother aged normally, and how for her death she wanted to be buried in her homeland on the surface. Namor carries out his mother’s wishes. Fen in the comics is also buried in her homeland in the antarctic waters of her youth.
Now. This scene. The Child without Love. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I have not been able to stop thinking about this since.
Namor is the AVENGING SON, he gets his identity from his mother. When I learned she wouldn’t be naming him that I was honestly very upset because its so central to who Namor is, but then I saw the adapted scene and I feel it works in this context. In the comics his name is a warning to the surface world/white people who hurt his people in the original comics. In the movie the name was bestowed upon him by a Spanish Priest who calls him a devil after Namor saw their evil and punished them for it. Namor wears his name as a promise to his people and a threat to his enemies,“My enemies call me Namor”.
Honestly the burial of Fen was so sad, Namor even places a stone in her mouth as well. She missed her home and wanted to be returned there. This really speaks to me about immigration and displacement, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard my own family members, the older ones, who don’t live in the homeland anymore talk about how they must be buried there. I think its something that only people who leave their homeland (not out of choice but a need for a place that will be better for lives because their home isn’t safe or they have better opportunities in foreign land) can really understand that no matter how far away they are, the need to return there, be buried there for the rest of time is a such a human need. The themes of immigration/displacement/colonization is prevalent throughout their story.
In the comics Namor’s first motivation is to wage war against the surface (white) people who hurt his people and he does cause a ruckus but then he faces the true Evil of Humanity when he finds out about the Nazis, he fights alongside the humans to stop them in WWll because he knew that they would come after his people next.
In the movie, the Evil of Humanity is the Spanish Colonizers. There is no romanticized version of this, there is no Spanish colonizer myth of them being benevolent people bringing advancement to the Natives. They are shown in their full evil glory as colonizers who hurt, killed, and destroyed Nations of Native people. This is the first time Namor sees humans, and its the worst they have to show.
When Nakia is searching for Namor/a way to find Shuri and Riri, she speaks to an old woman who tells her where Namor was sighted, and how he returns, and those who go after him with ill in their hearts do not return. So it means Namor is standing on a beach, returning over the years, because there is only one thing that would bring him to the surface world, his mother’s grave. Namor was visiting Fen’s grave in her ancestral lands.
The Sub-Mariner (1968) #17
Namor’s core character is that he is a hero to his people, and their protector, which the movie displayed so accurately. After the story of his people’s origins, Namor takes Shuri on a tour of his capital city. Another time one of his jokes comes into play, he is telling her all the ways her body would die under the deep water, and then goes “We have suits!” he neglects to mention its the SAME suits that he had taken from the scientists he had killed in the beginning of the movie! lmao. I love him. I really love this character even more now even though I’ve been such a huge fan of Namor for years.
Talokan’s Capital City is so pretty. I can’t wait to zoom in on all the details.
I honestly wish I could get my hands on that 400 page Talokan design book of it’s history/lore. I wish I had better pictures of the stone ring in which Namor does the Rising Sun hand gesture to activate the water currents that take them from the cave to the capital city. It’s clear the Talokans have advanced science/machines which they use all the time, and how they harrassed the power of undersea vibrainum like the Wakandans. Namor even says “I brought my people the sun”. I know there is like 30 minutes of cut footage so I will be waiting for that to come out in an extra dvd feature soon I hope.
¡Líik’ik Talokan!
The term means “Rise Talokan” or “Talokan Rises” the Mesoamerican symbol is the hand symbol connected to the sun (source & source) Namor and the Talokanil use it in greeting to each other.
The Mesoamerican worldbuilding of Talokan is more than I ever hoped for. One of my main ongoing complaints of Namor’s world in the comics is that Marvel is more interesting in destroying it than building it up so it’s just really great to see that Coogler and team had Mesoamerican experts and a language teacher (who played the Shaman) to make sure everything is the best it can be. I know this is a fantasy take of Mesoamerica but I feel they really respected the source material, and Namor’s transformation from Prince/King of Atlantis to K’uk’ulkan is a wonderful way to bring about the comic fantasy coding of native (atlantean) people to actual native mesoamerican people representation.
After their tour Namor gives Shuri his mother’s bracelet. The bracelet is made with fibers of the blue vibranium plant that the Shaman gave to Fen and her people. I know people are saying “it’s romantic, he gave her his mom’s bracelet” but like, if y’all could just take off those shipping glasses for one second to understand not everything has a romantic intention behind it. Imo Namor gives it to her as a gift, a sign of trust, everything he’s done so far has been to extend his hand in trust to what he hopes will be allies to his people. That has been his motivation, that’s what compels him to go to Wakanda, he is seeking an ally, and why not the Princess who has a chip on her shoulder, who wants to burn the world as he does?
While Namor is gone, answering Queen Ramonda’s summons/falling for her distraction tactic, Shuri and Riri escape with Nakia and in the process one of Namor’s people, a young woman, is killed. Namor and Ramonda’s confrontation is tense, and again he carries the shell, remember it’s significance of a object that represents war or other intentions.
Until now Namor had been trying to reach Shuri and get her to see things from his POV about why the scientist should die, but he makes it clear to Ramonda that he will kill Shuri along with Riri if it ensures his people will be safe. That is a character who all throughout the movie has made his goals very clear and then the rest of his character follows through on his threats/promises.
When Namor comes back to Talokan he finds that the entire ruse had been a betrayal, a trick, to get him to leave and in the process it costs him the life of one of his people. If there was one thing in the comics that was always sure to set Namor off was one of his people dying, and it’s no different in the movie. He gathers his people to make a speech about how his hopes was for naught.
The attack on Wakanda was Namor’s retaliation for the murder of one of his people.
In the comics the first time Namor attacks Wakanda, he was possessed by the Phoenix Force and not in control of his mind/actions. However there is a Namor and Shuri plot where Shuri sends her warriors to slaughter Atlanteans because of the Phoenix Namor attack, and then he sends the Black Order to Wakanda. Shuri in the comics does have innocent Atlanteans killed and Namor retaliates. Again they adapted stuff for the movie, and it plays out differently but I just thought to share that to showcase how different things were done. You can read Namor and Shuri’s interactions (they don’t have alot in the comics) in my Black Panther (T’Challa) & The Sub-Mariner thread here.
Edit:
I forgot to add another scene that was Comic to Movie:
Black Panther (2009) #1 - there is a scene in the movie that is exactly like this, where they fly above and comment on how fast Namor is in the water.
/End Edit
The action scenes, every time Namor is flying around fighting and breaking stuff. Once again they show that Namor is A THREAT, and he will follow through on it. And again, the Sirens are so pretty, I love them. One thing I really found interesting is how we see Namor’s moral code even in battle, even after Ramonda, he knows he could crush them but instead he gives them time to grieve. Some people might go “why did he give them a week, etc.” but like, it makes sense for his character, he isn’t a murderer because he likes killing, everything he does is in accordance to his moral code and no one elses, honor is a huge thing with Namor in the comics too. Not to mention Namor’s over all goal throughout the movie, he wants Wakanda on his side, he will do what he can to get that. He points at Shuri and says “You are queen now.” He puts the heavy burden of caring for an entire nation on her shoulders, now she will finally be forced to either step up or let it crush her. Namor is pressure that presses Shuri’s character into change, either she will crack or become a diamond.
Good characters are not stationary, good characters grow and change.
The final three scenes I want to talk about:
The big Wakanda vs Atlantis fight takes place on the Sea Leopard, now this could just be a fun name they gave the ship but it could also be a deep dive reference into a Namor comic character, a villain called Sea Leopard.
Okoye vs Attuma fight again and I loved it. Namora was such a badass!!!! I didn’t mention the water bombs the Talokanil use but its so freaking cool, they use it all throughout the movie and they also use Whales to launch their people out of the water with their tails, or the people ride them. I just love all the worldbuilding of Talokan. I know I haven’t talked about other parts of the movie so far, but my favorite characters are M’Baku, Okoye, and Nakia. I enjoyed every moment M’Baku was on screen!!!
Namor vs Shuri, the big fight, Shuri has finally taken the mantle of the Black Panther, and this action scene was so freaking good. Shuri’s plan to use Namor’s weaknesses against him gains her the upper hand and to be honest all those whiney fanbois crying “but SHE is a girl and SHE can’t fight and beat Namor!!!!” need to shut up because they are WRONG. They aren’t jobbing Namor, they aren’t writing him out of character, these weaknesses are the same weaknesses Namor has in the comics!
Namor’s main weaknesses are: Pollution/Poisons, Being dried out/overheated, his wings being hurt, and some forms of mind control/amnesia.
The fight was more than fair imo and Namor isn’t flawless, he has weakness that were used against him. Honestly I would have been mad if he somehow was unaffected. ALSO I LITERALLY FREAKED OUT WHEN I SAW “IMPERIUS REX” ON SCREEN. lol, my arms were flailing for real.
Shuri weapon is against Namor’s throat and she has the power to avenge her mother, to kill Namor, to take that step further into violence and vengance, to burn the world and move further away from healing and dealing with her greif.
“When my mother died, the last person who truely knew me died with her” Shuri’s loss drove her to become the Black Panther.
Namor’s mother dies, and the last person who truely loved/knew him for him, for being him, not a protector, not a leader, that love dies too.
Ramonda’s words “Show Him Who You Are!” is echoed to Shuri, it’s the same words Ramonda yells at T’Challa in Black Panther, when he fights M’Baku at Warrior’s fall. This is Shuri’s defining moment, her path forks and she has to choose mercy and moving on, dealing with her grief or accepting vengence to forever take a place in her heart. Shuri demands Namor yields, and Namor yields, he got what he wanted, Wakanda’s alliance.
When Namora confronts Namor about him yielding, he even says as much, that what he hoped to achieve he got, and now Wakanda would turn to them when it was time (for them to face the surface world/colonizers)
The action scenes in the movie are amazing, I could watch it a hundred times, the final confrontation between them ends in peace between their peoples.
As I’ve said, this post was mainly focused on Namor & the Talokanil, and I didn’t go into depth with the other plots/characters because I’ve been a Namor fan for years so all my interest is hyperfocused on him and his people.
My complaint: Everett Ross’s entire plot was not needed in this movie, it literally could have been a phone call with the first scene and we could have gotten more scenes with Namor & the Talokanil.
Personally my one biggest gripe is that in the end Wakanda & Talokan should have gone after the main people who were a threat to their nations which was the american government, it was a earlier plot point with Queen Ramonda at the United Nations that was just dropped as the focus shifted over to Namor. I do wish they had keep that plot thread going and both Wakanda and Talokan had teamed up to fight the Government/Surface World etc. but this is a MCU Marvel/Disney movie and Disney/Marvel is never going to do anything so controversial as calling out the American or other governments in present day for their colonizing ways, which is why I feel keeping Colonization as something that happened in the distant past isn’t true. I know the realities of the studios politics and the message the movie was sending and tbh it really followed through on alot of things and my complaints are minor and doesn’t take away the sheer enjoyment and happiness I felt watching Namor and the Talokanil on screen. Also I’m so glad we got to see Namor’s artistic side, which he has in the comics as well.
Once again I am so glad that Namor is shown as a Man of Color and his people are Native Mesoamerican. I’ve always personally felt the coding in his comics meant that we would lose the impact of his story if they stripped him of his biracial poc coding and cast a generic white man. It was always my biggest worry when it came to thoughts of Live Action Namor.
I love how multifaceted Tenoch’s acting was with Namor. Tenoch Huerta is MY Namor, he is the perfect choice for Namor and I’ve stood by his casting since it was first announced.
Created in 1939 by Bill Everett, Namor is imo one of the best characters ever created in comics, and the mcu version is one that is equally as wonderful and complex. I love both versions very much.
#mcu namor#namor#mcu attuma#attuma#mcu namora#namora#black panther: wakanda forever#bpwf spoilers#meta#comic meta#mod: imperiuswrecked
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Just realized the real tragedy in this scene. Thor laments Loki's loss and wishes to have him back, but the memory he thinks of is one of childhood. This ends up foreshadowing what would come, and it shows what Thor really wants is a specific version of his brother. I don't doubt that Thor truly loves his brother, but he wants Loki to be someone else.
Thor would got his wish he get his brother back. He get that version of Loki before he was the god of evil. But it didn't last.
These are both Loki, they are both his brother that love him and truly want to be good and do good. But one is the brother he wished to have and one is the he ended up with. Thor couldn't keep the version of Loki he wanted. That innocent childhood memory would inevitably be effected and changed by the adult he grew up to be.
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Can you please talk about why you think Namor has BPD? (At least I think you said that you believed Namor had BPD, it may have been another condition.)
I've spoken about Namor + Mental Health Issues many times in the past, but I can put it all in this post to make it an easier read rather than going through my older posts. I do state that I believe Namor has BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) but I will also go over other stuff that have come up in the comics.
General Disclaimer: I'm not a mental health professional, and comics are not good at accurate representation of mental health disorders, and this meta is just my thoughts on the matter of Namor's personality, and mental health issues (MHI). Also content warnings for mentions of mental health issues, suicide, genocide, and rape.
I think the Mental Health Issue that gets discussed the most is Bryne's 90s Namor run where he claims that Namor has Bipolar Disorder. Forgive my long winded response but let me explain the situation behind it and why I personally believe this is a terrible way to use MHI in comics, but of course if people feel represented by a superhero/anti-hero who has the same issues as them then that's good for them and I'm personally not out here to argue with anyone about MHI representation in comics.
Bipolar Disorder
It's the 90s, Namor has been bouncing around books all throughout the 80s after having his 60-70s series canceled, the character has been married twice and widowed twice (Dorma - 1st Wife, Marrina - 2nd wife) he's had one 4 issue mini series and a limited 12 issue series, Saga of the Sub-Mariner, before having his own solo title again; Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) and a new look was needed for the Prince of the Seas, so Terry Kavanagh & John Bryne decide to play up the 90s Business Man angle, and Namor is turned into a Corporate Eco Warrior, this time deciding to fight those who harm the oceans and its creatures in the board room rather than the seas. Saga of the Sub-Mariner (1988) sets up Namor for the 90s, with a recap of all the character's history but anyone reading Namor knows that Namor isn't a superhero like Captain America or Superman, who lean towards a lawful good character, instead he's had time spent as a villain and hero, as Marvel puts it "Namor was the first hero-villain" and is the Archetype Anti-Hero and this is very important and I stress this very hard that because of Namor's Anti-Hero characterization it would be impossible to make him a lawful good hero like Captain America without losing important parts of the character. Namor isn't an american or surface world hero, so how does he now work in the surface world? How does a writer take a morally gray character like Namor and make him the hero of his own title?
You would think perhaps they might lean into WHY Namor is angry all the time, WHY Namor hates Americans and other surface dwellers, WHY would he constantly be fighting against them. You would think a good writer would love to play around with plots of morality, human greed and the willful destruction of the earth's oceans with a character whose upbringing/morals don't match the general typical hero type, and the tropes of a vengeful entity seeking justice.
But that would be asking too much of writers.
Instead Bryne blames all of Namor's past misdeeds on "he's crazy" and thus begins my most hated, over used, writing trope for Namor which I've dubbed "The Mad (as in crazy) Sea King Trope" you see this pop up many times in Namor's comics. So now whenever Namor is evil or doesn't fall in line with the surface heroes thinking/wanting to do things, its not because Namor has some actual grievance with the surface world, no he's just got a chemical imbalance in his brain and he needs to take a dip in the ocean or a walk on land.
Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #1
"And my studies have led me to the conclusion that your occasional periods of almost homicidal rage are directly the results of your mingled bloodlines. --- Too long underwater and you begin to suffer from oxygen starvation. Too long on the surface and the reverse occurs. In both cases the result is a kind of Intoxication. You become irrational... insane!"
And with this comic Bryne has irrevocably hurt Namor's character forever. The damage this comic has done will never be undone nor will Namor's character ever have a chance to really dive into Why he's so Angry at the world without Marvel coming back around to this comic. Namor was the original "Angry Young Man" of comics, because Everett said he put some of himself, his own youth, his anger, into Namor's character. If I come across that statement/interview again I will definitely post about it, I just feel that this post is already too long and don't want to sidetrack getting deeper into Namor's design/character.
Namor's extreme hostility and anger is not a character flaw, its by design that he harbors such great resentment towards the world his father came from.
"The Original "Angry Young Man" - The Sub-Mariner" art by Bill Everett
Namor isn't angry because he's crazy, he's angry because severe injustice has been done to his people and home and he wants to avenge that. Everything about Namor is about him trying to navigate two worlds and the anger he feels at the harm one side has done to the other. Namor means "Avenging Son" for a reason.
However with this Bipolar explanation Bryne has neatly swept up all of Namor's complicated emotions and issues with his human half and the human world into a tidy pile and then tossed it out.
I would rather Namor be held accountable for his actions than for them to be forgiven (and why should he CARE about human forgiveness anyways???). I would rather Namor hold a mirror up to the human world and call out their sins which is why he does what he did in the past rather than this half assed "oh, its not really his fault, so its all ok now" writing. This is why I think Bryne's Bipolar Namor hurts the character because it takes away any agency or consequences for the main theme of the character and his world. And it's boring. It's so utterly boring that I want to cry. Perhaps because I love complicated plots, any explanation that absolves a character without putting the work in makes me dislike that writing. Bryne was trying to redeem Namor and in my strongest and unhumble opinion, Namor does not need redemption. Nor should Namor care about human laws or seek to be absolved by subjecting himself to their rulings.
He's not the hero for surface dwellers, he's the hero for atlanteans, and if people actually took the time to see things from Namor's point of view instead of trying to shove the character into the traditional hero mold then they could understand why Namor attacked the surface world.
Trial of the Sub-Mariner - Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #13
"But the fact remains, Namor has never been brought fully to account for many of early crimes against humanity-- including declarations of war and the actual invasion of New York!"
"Reed! You sound as though you think Namor should be found guilty of the charges! Yet we know now many of his rages against the world were caused by a blood imbalance due to his mixed racial heritage."
Bryne resolves Namor's past actions by writing that he is guilty of his crimes but by way of insanity in a throwaway speech bubble that if people were less of an intense reader might miss and forget instantly but I'm too much of an obsessive reader, lol. So Namor has to serve a 100 years of probation (again this isn't brought up ever again in any future issues, he literally never does his probation) monitored by Captain America who is his parole officer, Steve plays the part of Jiminy Cricket to keep him on the path of good and Namor is free to be the Good Guy who doesn't hate America/Surface Dwellers. This also leads into another grievance I have with Marvel writers who use Steve as the Moral Right to Namor's Immoral Wrong, but again that's a post for another day.
Imo Byrne is a terrible writer. I won't say I hate the 90s run because there are parts of it I greatly enjoy, but I do criticize how badly this effects Namor's character to this day. It makes no sense logically nor is this how Bipolar disorder works.
Next is Zdarsky's writing.
Where do I begin. I first want to point out that I don't know how Zdarsky would have written Namor if he hadn't been told "No" to a Namor solo series which prompted him to change his story to include Steve and the Invaders but going by the plot of Invaders (2019) I am very glad that this wasn't a solo Namor series. If you haven't read that series the main summary is Namor gets his mind messed with a lot, by Professor Xavier, by the Serpent Crown, by a mental entity taking the distorted form of his old friend, Machan. Which prompts Namor to decide to make all surface dwellers into water dwellers and the Invaders try to stop him. So basically Zdarsky tries to stay true to the previous writing of Bryne's Bipolar disorder but also throws in way too much interference. In the comics it's almost a joke just how many times Namor is possessed or driven mad or insane or has amnesia and it happens once again this series. While it was interesting to see someone attempt to fill in the blank Amnesiac years (the time period between Namor disappearing from Atlantis after the War until the time Johnny Storm finds Namor keeps getting longer as the years go by, what used to be maybe 6 years of an Amnesiac period has now become decades), I just feel that adding more brain trauma and possession for a plot that is ultimately forgotten by now didn't help Namor's character or actually explore his psyche more.
That's not to say I hated it completely, I'm just a very critical reader, and there are very good moments that do explore Namor's psyche like when Professor X is in Namor's mind, and Namor says "I cannot be fixed. There is murder in my heart Charles." Invaders (2019) #4
Or Namor showing Steve how he feels as a super human among humans in issue 1. "Do you have any idea what this is like for me? Look how weak you all are! I could crush this man's head like you would crack open an egg! I run around on your battlefields trying to -- to protect bags of water from being punctured by other bags of water!"
In the end this series employs the same tropes from older comics:
- The Mad Sea King (Namor is insane)
- Steve is the Moral Right to Namor's Immoral Wrong
- Nothing is in character for Namor and Namor's ooc-ness is directly tied to mental interference but Namor is blamed for it as though this is all in character. < this trope also applies to the Phoenix King Namor of the Phoenix Five.
However this series does try somewhat to showcase Namor's PTSD, but more on that later in this post.
So to wrap this up, Namor's bipolar disorder was written as a way to excuse Namor for his shady past and bouts of madness and/or to have a chance to write Namor as Evil or an Antagonist without having to deal with the issues that make up Namor's character or have to blame the surface world for their compliancy in those issues. So you can see why I highly dislike and often ignore the "Namor is bipolar" writing.
Suicidal Thoughts
After the death of Marrina, his second wife, Namor contemplates throwing himself into a swirling whirlpool of perhaps certain death in Marvel Comics Presents (1988) #57
PTSD
While Zdarsky tried to include PTSD as a plot point in Invaders (2019) in my opinion he didn't go far enough into that aspect of Namor's MHI, and instead pivots back to Serpent Crown/Machan possession/Xavier's mind manipulation. Invaders (2019) was so close but ultimately I have to give the real recognition of Namor's PTSD coding/writing to these other comics, especially Marvels Snapshot.
Namor's first real interaction with the surface world comes at the beginning of WWll, at this point Namor is 18 years old, so he's very young for a human and even younger for an Atlantean. As a teenager going off to fight a war in another land he came back with PTSD however in older comics it's more coded than stated.
Marvel Team Up (1997) #8 - Namor finds he cannot breath underwater and manages to make it to safety on a bridge in New York where a frightened human runs away from Namor and into a cop who begins to beat the man. Namor witnessing this has a mental break and believes himself to be back in WWll.
Doctor Strange stops Namor and bring him back for treatment relating to why Namor came to him in the first place and why he can't swim in water but I found this interaction to be very interesting, because this could easily be seen as Namor having a ptsd moment and dealing with the aftermath and not just about Namor's inability to swim underwater and mental burdens.
"It happened again. The Son of Atlantis does not embarrass easily, Doctor. But I foolishly thought you had cured me."
"It's not your fault, Namor. I've completed my diagnosis and I've concluded that you are a very sick individual."
Another moment that I also believe is coded PTSD is in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) Annual 1 - Never Again. This comic deals heavily with Namor's past in WWll, the holocaust, genocide and has many flashbacks.
However it wasn't until Marvels Snapshot: Sub-Mariner (2020) that we finally and truly get our first story that actually dives into the fact that Namor has PTSD and is very much affected by it, they do not call it PTSD instead the terms were "Shell Shock" or "Combat Fatigue" are used because this is set during an era where PTSD was not named/recognized. This story is told from the POV of a character who's loved ones have PTSD. Betty Dean witnesses her brother Lloyd's hands shake, his short temper and his drinking as a way to deal with his ptsd. She talks with her other brother about Llyod.
I really love this story because I feel it's so accurate as to how someone would react towards the situation; Betty doesn't understand why Llyod isn't happy the war is over, and Frank tells her "The war's not over for everyone, Betts." I really cannot recommend this comic enough for how it deals with Namor and Betty dealing with the aftermath of the war and how a partner/loved ones struggle with MHI hurts those around them because they are unable to help them. If I could I would post this whole comic here but again, post long, time to move on.
You see Namor react to triggers such as bullet shot sounds. His hands trembling like her brother's.
It's well known that Namor loathes Nazis, and this was another trigger for him to remember his time in the war.
In the end Betty consoles Namor but cannot get him to accept that he isn't well, and he needs help. So yes, it's canon Namor has PTSD and the Rage he had before the war is only exacerbated further because of his war trauma.
Coping Mechanisms/Addiction
As seen in Snapshot, Namor refuses to seek any therapy which was a headcanon I had a long time ago and was pretty pleased to see how spot on another writer understood Namor's inability to ask for help.
"And I don't ask for help. I'm a King dammit." - Dark Reign: The List - X-Men
So as Llyod turned to drinking/alcohol to cope with his ptsd, throughout the comics Namor is seen drinking after he loses a battle/is unable to deal with loss - Fear Itself: The Deep (and avengers but I hate Aaron's avengers so I'm not posting the Namor going in a drinking binge page here but it's there) and Namor also drinks with T'Challa in Avengers when he believes all hope is lost. (Also not to sidetrack again, but someday I really really want to talk about how Namor seems to really only open up to people like Stephen, and has less trouble asking Stephen for help than others. The Defenders team dynamic is one of my favorite things.)
But another coping mechanism is that Namor has used drugs in the past - Bucky Barnes: Winter Soldier (2014) #1 and I've run out of the allowed images on a single post so I linked my older post where I mention this.
Amnesia/Mental Possession
When Marvel began it's Silver Age, the world exploded into creation with the arrival of the Fantastic Four in 1961. At this point in the real world Namor had been out of print since 1955. Now Kirby & Lee could have just kept going without bringing in any of the older characters from the Golden Age but Stan Lee loved Namor's character very much and wanted to bring him back and what started out as a plot point in Fantastic Four (1961) #4 to explain where Namor had been for a in universe few years turns into a and overused cliché in Namor comics. I have no issues with Fantastic Four (1961) #4 using this plot, in fact its a very good and simple plot, the Pauper that was actually a lost Prince of a fantastical realm.
Namor is the first character to bridge the divide between the old golden age heroes and the new silver age heroes. The way amnesia is used as a tool to help explain and bring in the character is very contained however many times after this writers seem to love to use Amnesiac Namor as a plot device and it's happened many times in his comics. In fact Namor seems to get amnesia from literally anything, wheter it's Master Khan stripping Namor of his memories in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #25 or Namor becoming an train bound amnesiac hobo over the grief of losing his father in The Sub-Mariner (1968) #47
Meanwhile the other often used trope of Mental Possession comes up many times too, from the Puppet Master controlling Namor in Fantastic Four (1961) #14 and again in Tales to Astonish #78 to explosions leaving Namor an amnesiac and under the control of the hooded man of the secret empire in Tales to Astonish #83, etc. This is of course an incomplete list of times Namor has either lost his memories or is under another's mental control. Note: The Serpent Crown is also another recurring plot where Namor or others are controlled by the crown.
Of course I can't leave out the Phoenix King. Phoenix Five Namor is the one most people know but again most do not acknowledge that he was possessed and under the control of a cosmic entity. Even though there are two comics that talk about how much Namor hated his agency and control being taken away from him by the Phoenix.
AvX: Consequences #4 & Jean Grey (2017) #3
I bring up the instances of Namor's amnesia/mental possession and how it relates to his MHI issues because these sort of plots are present in many comics but most writers really don't take the time to go into how badly these constant bouts of loss of self affect Namor's character, which is understandable in comic book writing world because every writer wants to move onto the next plot and next action scene. However these does bring me to the next topic.
(Also if you want a good amnesia Namor comic then read Tales of the Marvels: Inner Demons, it's told from a side characters pov but it's one of my favorite comics)
Mental Resilience
Now if a writer wants a thing to happen in a comic then it will happen and explanations or consistency be damned. However I do find it very amusing how Namor is constantly shown to have an extremely strong personality and remarked to have very strong mental fortitude that not even Emma Frost can break, is shown to be strong enough to stand against The Purple Man's powers and Namor has had literally everything from tanks to bombs thrown at him and brushed it off, yet sometimes he can't resist whatever flavor of the week villain's mental powers or stop waking up with amnesia every 5 seconds.
So Namor is the most hard headed recurring amnesiac to ever live in comics. I sincerely worry he's got massive amounts of brain damage with how many times this has happened to him.
Mental Instability
I'm sure there are times when Namor just cracks under the massive amounts of constant trauma and pressure but comics don't really show that however there is a moment right after Llyra rapes Namor, he finds out, and then she lies to him, telling him she is pregnant with his child (at this point in the comics Namor was canonically sterile), and Namor just cracks, with Johnny and Ben saying Namor has "lost it". Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #50
Borderline Personality Disorder
Now everything I've spoken of up until this point is supported by comic examples. However my theory of Namor having Borderline Personality Disorder came about from me rejecting the Bipolar Disorder explanation and then trying to figure out what type of MHI Namor would really have if writers cared at all to understand the character. Most of this comes from me seeing the commonly shared traits between Namor's character and the signs of BPD. I wrote this out before but here's the list again:
An intense fear of abandonment, even going to extreme measures to avoid real or imagined separation or rejection
A pattern of unstable intense relationships, such as idealizing someone one moment and then suddenly believing the person doesn’t care enough or is cruel (see: namor hounding susan storm for years, idolizing her, but it wasn’t actually a relationship)
Rapid changes in self-identity and self-image that include shifting goals and values, and seeing yourself as bad or as if you don’t exist at all
Periods of stress-related paranoia and loss of contact with reality, lasting from a few minutes to a few hours
Impulsive and risky behavior
Wide mood swings lasting from a few hours to a few days, which can include intense happiness, irritability, shame or anxiety
Ongoing feelings of emptiness
Inappropriate, intense anger, such as frequently losing your temper, being sarcastic or bitter, or having physical fights
Most of these traits are things you see throughout the comics, but nothing that's ever stated as BPD. You see Namor struggle with his self-identity, be paranoid that Lady Dorma has abandoned/betrayed him, his wanderings throughout the oceans during his periods of grief or loneliness etc. it's really just a lot of little things that I feel contribute to this headcanon.
The Sub-Mariner (1968) #4
To me Namor having Borderline Personality Disorder clearly explains Namor's rapid shifts of mood better than "oh he's bipolar and its because he's half human/atlantean and needs oxygen or he goes insane", and IF Marvel was to give Namor some kind of mental diagnosis then imo he would not be Bipolar.
Namor has so much external pressure, from the way the Atlanteans have ostracized him, and the politics of the surface world vs the atlanteans, the way he's constantly pushed to war with the humans while at other times trying to prevent war between his two people. The pressures of being a king, and the internal pressures of his inner self, his conflicts of being half human/atlantean, personal life, and losses. It's enough to make anyone crack. Let alone a character who has endured this for decades.
Atlantis Attacks (2020) #1
In conclusion, get this sea king some therapy and let him nap. He really needs it.
#namor#namor mckenzie#namor the sub mariner#mental health issues#comic meta#long post#fantastic four#imp answers
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Do yall ever think about how easy it could be to get a shit ton more disability rep in comics if the big 2 just... acknowledged that many of their preexisting characters are in fact disabled?
#dc comics#marvel#comic meta#(kind of)#I'll probably add to this later but yes I was thinking about Batman#and like all the characters that have metal limbs#disability rep
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Unpopular Opinion #1
Dick is DC’s certified pretty boy™, but when some writers have him be liked by everyone it feels a little too much sometimes. Not everybody is into “conventionally” attractive people, so they should keep this in mind.
Side note: Most of the time they’ll write it very cringey and make him be harassed to “show” that he’s pretty (This is a very big DC/Comic problem that needs to be addressed, so many characters get harassed and it’s normalized).
#my unpopular opinions#my thoughts#my opinions#comic thoughts#dick grayson#nightwing#batfamily#comic meta#dc#dc comics
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I want to give the Robin backup story in Batman 244 a shoutout. The story was written in 1972, and is set during Dick's time at Hudson university.
The story opens with Dick apprehending a boy who has stolen from the university. The money the boy stole is used for scholarships to the university, and the boy cites that as a reason for his theft.
He's angry about the opportunities afforded to those from more affluent areas, opportunities that people like him (from the surrounding area) aren't afforded. Robin Decides to not arrest the boy and instead offers him a lift home.
The boy is revealed to be called Tommy Duffy. Tommy lives in a rough neighborhood. Robin tells Tommy that a friend of his, Dick, will check up on him. Dick is attacked on the street outside, and he notes the depravity of the area Tommy lives in.
Dick arrives the next day, and finds he relates to Tommy. He bonds with Tommy over a love of guitar playing, and over the following weeks Tommy starts to improve in school due to Dick's positive influence, much to Dick's delight.
Dick is once again attacked on Tommy's street, and is forced to break Tommy's guitar to defend himself. To apologize, he gives Tommy his own guitar, which Tommy promises to practice with "twenty hours a day"
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Fandom discourses are inherently messy bcs it concerns how ppl interpret text and media, but i feel like when it concerns mainstream cape comics character accuracy, at the base of it, you can’t really win.
Theres a conversation to be had about mcu adaptations and the motives of streamlining characters to fit ur multibillion dollar franchise under the evil mouse corporation, fucking over the aspects of representation they try to sell to you then having these mangled versions end up being the defining incarnation to the general public.
But for my purposes this is mainly concerning dc.
The nature of the serialization for these comics being a collaborative effort of ever-changing writers in an ever-expanding universe mean that for the most part, every decision made would disservice at least one character, and consequently piss someone off.
Having books where most of its supporting characters are fully developed with their own runs seem to be a double-edged sword where there should be plenty of material to draw from and build plots around, but only under the assumption that the writers read the comics of the characters they write about.
And then in the events that a character long neglected gets brought back and remolded to be a tag-a-long in someone else’s series, or a reboot nerfs a character real bad, with whatever trickle-down effect it causes, if said characterization ends up being adopted in canon longer than their original incarnation,
At what point does that first personality become the one actually considered ooc? How much consistent appearance of what you consider ‘bad writing’ has to be there before u have to accept that making them not be like that is the deviation?
Current decisions in dc of soft reboots and having all their characters remember what happened pre-new52, but not erasing the aspects readers hated from said reboot, and not at all exploring how that knowledge would affect the characters, coupled with how they dont seem to keep track of character developments in other books, make trying to keep up with continuity itself feel like an exercise in futility.
You might get runs with the intention of repairing damages that might fix characterization issues to a point, but also feels like a regression of all the development they should’ve had.
Depending on your comic entry point, your blorbo, and what aspects of said blorbo you connect with, how you interact and which canons you adopt would be wildy varied, and like, you probably wont be wrong for it.
Its also very understandable when regarding characters that have so much history and adaptations people end up going off more accessible and streamlined incarnations, like say, a free webtoon on a big platform or other fanworks.
Is it annoying when larger fanon doesnt fit how you perceive those characters and dynamics? Sure. Are they wrong? Well??? Again, thats free game.
Fandom has always been drawn to exploration and extrapolation, and the way mainstream superhero comics are written dont tend to linger on big character/plot beats. Theres plenty of play room and its easy to headcanon someone one way or another.
Sometimes it can end up creating a more in-depth and nuanced version of a character you’d probably never see in the hand of canon writers, other times they get flattened in all the wrong angles.
But being a fan of mainstream cape comics is so rarely rewarding, the nature of it really is to just pick and choose whatever parts of it brings you the most joy. No one wins in this dnsnsnsns.
That tweet that said ‘the best way to enjoy fandom is to keep it between you and 3 or 4 likeminded friends’ really is the best way to keep u sane in these things.
#shut up roppie#comic meta#well more specifically#dc meta#i guess#more accurately#batman meta#REALLY#also posted this on twt but i needed to get it out in longer wording#on the topic of wfa its actually funny how it seems that the writers actually have read the defining runs of the characters#yet make the executive decision to bend it to fit fanon#and considering its an elseworld slice of life comedy where theyre a happy family that tracks#if u try to be accurate to how they are when the comics made most sense they would not be a cohesive family unit lmao#wait i g this is actually#fandom meta
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Expertise can't help you here.
#dungeon meshi#kabru#laios touden#falin touden#Happy Thistle Thursday once again. Have I been holding on to this comic for several weeks? Sure have!#I forgot how long it takes for Chimera Falin to come into play.#I still really love my 'better drawn' art of her - unfortunately it was several weeks too early for the anime only folks.#Slowly getting the hang of drawing Laios. I don't know why I struggle so much but I am getting...somewhere.#Meta time: God damn I love how the chimera shows off the expertise and gap between Kabru and Laios.#The truth is: they are both *right* and they are both *wrong*.#This creature is a combination of monster and human and they only have the skillset to deal with one of those.#Kabru goes for all the human vitals - but she isn't human.#Laios tries to approach her as a monster and is struck down by the humanity he sees in her.#She is something new that defies what they *both* understand about the world. And that makes her such a perfect antagonist.#The damsel was the dragon all along!#...She is really so cute though. Terrifying! But adorable. I am so excited to see the boom of fanart for her.
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Potion Vendor FAQs:
What’s your name? I am the Honorable Alchemist Zykocea the Radiant, but that’s mostly just a PR thing. My friends call me Zoe.
Do you sell love potions? No.
Do you sell potions of invisibility? No.
Do you sell fire resistance potions? No.
Why do I have a suitcase? Fuck if I know. Cool outfit though. Very goth.
Do you sell a potion to treat brain hemorrhaging? No.
So what CAN your potions do? I sell health potions.
Are you sure these are health potions? They do something to your health.
Is this just ditch water with some pink glitter? No.
Really? I’ll have you know I added some fruit juice too.
Why is this starting to sound like a conversation? Oh just you wait. We’re just getting started.
Is your business model legal? Fuck no. I poisoned the food safety inspector before they could snitch.
Did you just admit to murder? Just fucking try to convict me. I’ll poison the judge too.
So can you make poison potions? No.
Then where do you get the poison? I secrete it from my skin.
Are you shitting me? Yep, I’m shitting you. I have a guy. A poison guy. He DOES secrete it from his skin though.
How does that work? …Fuck if I know. Maybe a wizard did it. Damn, now I’m kinda curious.
You never asked? The idea of asking literally never crossed my mind.
Wanna ask him? Let’s do it. I don’t have anything better to do, and a road trip beats sitting around running my fraudulent potion business.
Road trip? He lives in Seattle.
Your poison guy lives in Seattle? All poison guys live in Seattle.
For real? All the poison guys I know live in Seattle.
And how many poison guys do you know? Just the one.
Why are you like this? Years of living on my potions. It changed me.
Do you know what his address is? Nope. He just mails me my poison in unmarked boxes.
You just get your poison in the mail? We already poisoned everyone who could do anything about it.
So how are we going to find him? We’ll figure that out eventually I’m sure.
Can I drive? God no. You can pick music, but I maintain veto rights. Make sure you pick something with a lot of questions if you want to sing along.
Where’s your car? The garage connects to my house, so you’re getting a little tour. Here’s the kitchen: only one of the stove burners works and I’m pretty sure the microwave is haunted.
Why do you think that? Because of the ghost that tries to kill me whenever I run it.
What’s in that room? That’s my bedroom. It’s pretty much just a mattress on the floor and every single Warrior cats book.
You were a Warriors kid? Yeah, and then I never found the time to put the books away. There’s so many fucking books. I use them in place of furniture because I can’t afford chairs.
Your fraudulent potion business doesn’t make much money? After buying all that poison I just about break even.
Can I see your potion brewing room? It’s right through here. Ignore the mess, running a fraudulent potion business takes a lot of prop work, but I’ve got all the glass tubes and colorful liquids you could ever want. This pink stuff is melted watermelon italian ice. Glitter vat is in the basement, and the famous ditch is in the backyard.
Is this your car? My beloved ‘72 Corolla. She’s beautiful, and don’t you dare imply otherwise.
Was she always this shade of muddy brown? …Yes.
Are you sure I can’t drive? Get in the fucking passenger seat and pick the music.
Let’s see, a song with questions in it, how about The Beach? That Wolf Alice song, yeah. That should work.
When will we three meet again, in thunder, lightning, in rain? Still sink our drinks like every weekend but I’m sick of circling the drain.
When will we meet eye to eye? We clink the glass but we look at the floor.
Are we still friends if all I feel is afraid? You’re not a bitch but just a bit when you’re bored.
Is that all we can sing together? Yep. Even that little bit was nice, though. It’s awkward, communicating through this FAQ format.
Got any food? Yeah, there’s a few days’ worth of snacks in the back.
Were you just… prepared to go on a road trip? Says the woman who brought a suitcase to an FAQ.
I did do that, didn’t I? I have a spare toothbrush in case you forgot yours. I’m pretty sure you did.
How did you know that? …I’m psychic.
Yeah? No.
You love lying, don’t you? I can’t stop. It’s fun. Way more fun than telling the truth.
Did you just miss a turn? Probably.
Are you sure we’re not lost? No.
You mean you’re sure we’re not lost? No, I mean I’m not sure we’re not lost.
Why did I come on this road trip? Surely it was my winning personality.
Would it help if I said it was? It would.
Is it getting dark? Soon.
Can you describe the sunset to me? An empyrean flame, red-gold towers of darkening clouds, the sky behind them an ever-deepening indigo. The great eye of the sun closes on the horizon. The road before us looks like a trail of spilled paint, an iridescent gash through the night-dark woods.
Did you know that you’d make a slightly better poet than you do a potion seller? That really isn’t saying much, huh. Good job making a statement like that in question form, though. You’re getting good at this.
Should we find a motel? Sure.
One room or two? One. It’s way cheaper, and like I said: I’m not the best potion vendor.
You’d make a good assassin, though, wouldn’t you? Shit, you might be right. I HAVE poisoned a lot of people.
Should I be endorsing this? You’re a grown woman who can make her own choices.
Would you like to consider it endorsed? I’ll consider considering it.
How many beds do you think there will be? Now that you’ve asked that, I’m gonna put my money on one. Hello, one room please. Thank you, we’ll be sure to enjoy our stay.
How many beds are there? One.
Oh no, what ever will we do? Move over, you motherfucker, you can’t have the whole bed.
Are you gonna make me? Yes. I am going to pick you up and drop you on your side of the bed.
How did you get so strong? You’re not gonna believe this, but it was the potions.
Oh yeah? I was right. You didn’t believe me.
For real though, how did you get so strong? Working out, duh. Not everything has some big crazy secret behind it. World’s still beautiful though.
Are you comfortable? This beats the mattress at home. A little chilly though.
Wanna cuddle–for warmth of course? God yes.
Are you asleep? …
Yes? …
Does this mean I can talk about you behind your back? …
What should I say? …
Did you know that I had a really nice day? …
Did you know that I think you’re beautiful? …
Did you know that I can’t remember anything from before today? …
Did you know that I don’t know who I am? …
Did you know that you’re basically the only thing stopping me from having a full-blown panic attack about all this shit? …
Did you know that you’re warm? …
Did you sleep well? Better than at home, that’s for sure.
Did you know that you snore? I hope I didn’t keep you up.
Does the pope shit in the woods? No, as far as I can tell. Oh my god. This is huge.
What is? You can give me yes and no answers now. I still can’t ask you questions, because this is a question and answer format, but I can offer leading statements and now you can answer them! This is wonderful!
Does a deer shit in the woods? Yes, it IS wonderful. Oh that’s amazing. You’re a genius.
You didn’t already know that? Hahaha!
Shall we get moving? Yeah, just let me grab something from the vending machine.
Can you get me something? Go ahead and place your order however you can.
You know those sour gummy watermelons? One pack of Sour Patch Watermelons coming right up. I’m gonna go get myself a potion.
Is that a Pepsi? It’s closer to a potion than the shit I sell.
Let me guess, passenger seat again? Right you are.
How fast are we going? You’ll feel safer if you just guess.
Is it more than 120 miles per hour? Like I said, it’s probably better if you don’t know.
150? Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride.
How much do you trust this car? She hasn’t blown up on me yet.
Can you promise me we won’t crash? I can promise you anything you want.
And can you keep that promise? I- we can do anything. Reality is what we make of it, baby!
Then can I have a badass tattoo? As far as I can tell, you’ve always had it.
And a cool knife? Woah, cool knife.
So, we’re just playing “yes and” with the world? It’s a little more complicated than that, but you’re close enough to the mark.
So, if I was hungry, I could ask “is that a Burger King,” and it would be there? Try it and find out!
Is that a Burger King? Looks like it is! We’ll stop here if that’s alright with you.
Does a moose shit in the woods? Awesome.
Are you done eating? Yep.
Do we still have to pay if we skip over the transaction? Sadly, yes.
How much further do we have to go? Two more nights, the speed we’re going at.
Speaking of night, isn’t it getting dark? Shit, I guess it is.
Should we get another motel? Let me check to see if there’s any nearby. Fuck, nothing.
What’s the plan? Sleep in the car, I guess. This is gonna be hell on my back.
Wanna watch dumb videos on my phone until we fall asleep? There is literally nothing in the world that I would like more.
Ok, now which video? You have a very cute yawn. Just saying. Let’s watch this one next, it’s a classic. Oh, never mind. It looks like you’re asleep. As long as I keep talking, I think I can get away with making this into one answer, and you might not hear this. Now it’s my turn to talk about you behind your back. Keep talking keep talking keep talking can’t stop to think. Just have to say things. First off, I’m sorry for all the lies. It’s our only chance. I have to lie to you. I hope you’ll understand. It’s hard, though, because I think I’m falling in love all over again. Through our broken little ritual of call and response, you complete me. It just makes this hurt all the more. Keep talking keep talking keep talking don’t stop to…
Did I hear you saying anything as I fell asleep? …No. I can’t talk for long without you asking me a question.
Does that bother you? It got me here, didn’t it?
When did you start holding my hand? Some time after you passed out. I hope you don’t mind.
Can we stay like this for a while? Yeah. Yeah we can.
What was your life like before all this? Normal, as potion-brewing scams go. And if you don’t count all the murders. You haven’t told me much about yourself.
Did I tell you I used to be a biologist? You didn’t tell me that, and you didn’t tell me what you studied, either.
What do you know about venom? Not much, but I’m assuming you know a lot.
Does a box jellyfish kill within minutes? I’m going to assume the answer is yes based on context clues. Oh my god you must be on this road trip because you’re interested in studying my poison guy.
Is it not enough to wish to accompany a beautiful stranger on her quest? Aw, you’re sweet.
What could be the cause of his poison, though? I knew it! Get your ideas out, I’ll stay quiet.
I’m more knowledgeable about venom than poison, but could it be some sort of one in a trillion mutation? …
Did he get his body modified? …
What sort of surgery could do that? …
How is he still alive? …
Did a fucking wizard do it? …
WHY? …
HOW? …
Is there literally ANY explanation for why he’s like that? …
I’m done, do you have something you want to say? You’re cute when you’re all excited like that.
Can I drive today? Only because I like you. Now watch out, the brakes only work on one side so you have to kind of drift to a stop. And the headlights don’t work. And the windshield wipers cut power to the engine while they’re on.
Isn’t it weird that we’ll be there tomorrow? The journey doesn’t have to stop there. We could meander down the coast a ways, see a bit more of the country, maybe take a different route back.
Can we do that? Of course.
Enjoying the passenger seat? I’d love it if you could tell me how fast we’re going.
Are you sure you wouldn’t rather just guess? Very funny.
Can you pass me some chips? It would be an honor.
Is there going to be a motel tonight? Let me check… yeah, in about two hundred miles, off to the right.
How many rooms do we want? One, obviously.
How many beds, this time? Two, and they’re fucking tiny.
That’s bullshit, do you want to drag them together? God yes.
Wanna fuck? God yes.
Are you sure you want to do this? God yes.
…Is this yuri? As the joke goes, everything is yuri. But this is more yuri than most things.
How did you sleep? Pretty well, and I’m wondering how well you slept.
How should I tell you I slept well? Look at us go! That was almost like talking normally!
Onward to Seattle? Yep, just let me get dressed.
When will we get there? Noon-ish.
Wanna grab pastries when we’re done? Absolutely. I’d love that.
Is this Seattle? Looks like it.
Which house is his? I don’t know, I was really hoping we’d have a breakthrough along the way.
Could it be the big one labeled “Poison Guy” over there? That’s one way to find it. Wait right here, you know how poison guys are about meeting new people.
So, what was it? HAHAHAHAHAHA
Why is he like that? HAHAHAHAHAHA
Can you tell me? A FUCKING WIZARD DID IT.
Are you fucking serious? He says he was enchanted by some guy called Edward the Great.
So it wasn’t even some big shot wizard it was a dude named fucking EDWARD? I know, right! He couldn’t even get ensorcelled by someone cool!
How lame can you get? Wizards these days… No swagger. No cunt servitude.
Are there literally any cool wizards left? I think Merlin’s big into multi level marketing these days, something about buying shares in Excalibur or some shit. There was that one Dark Queen Alkaxicae lady on the news a while ago… I think Dolarion the Omnipotent is still at war against the Oldest Gods but I’m not totally sure. Haven’t heard much about any of the other greats recently.
Didn’t Silver Tongued Burgess die in that oil fire? Shit, you’re right. Rip bozo.
Ready for those pastries? Yup. First I just want to say thank you, though. I’ve really enjoyed our time together, and I hope that you’ve found this stupid little journey as rewarding as I have. I love you!
Getting sentimental? I can’t help it. Look how far we’ve come! Not just physically, we beat the fucking FAQ format! We’re having real conversations!
Hey, can you back it up a moment? Yeah, I’d love it if you told me what was troubling you.
I just caught this, but, FAQ? …
As in Frequently Asked Questions? …
How many times is Frequent? …
Have you known everything all along? …
How many times have you done this? …
Does what we have mean anything to you? Yes! It does!
And you say that every time? Yes. I do.
Do you love me? Yes.
How many people have you said that too, now? More. Always more. The loop never ends.
Does this even matter to you? It always matters to me.
Can I go now? Please don’t.
But can I? Of course you can. You’ve always wielded the same power as me. We’re two lonely gods in a ‘72 Corolla.
How can I be as powerful as you with only questions? You’re smart, you can figure it out. You have the power to change this. Please change this.
What happens at the end of this? It begins again.
And do I get replaced with someone else? …
Do I get replaced? …Yes.
Then how can I change this? I don’t know! You’re better at this! At fucking with the formula!
You’ve been here before, what can I do? I lie. I always lie. I lie to get us here, to the end of the story, where everything is revealed and everything falls apart. I lie every time. And that means that nothing I say is worth anything. I could have lied at any time before now. It’s part of my characterization. There is nothing I can give you that can be taken as fact.
How does that help? I’m a liar, but you, you haven’t lied yet, or at least you haven’t been caught. If I’m guilty until proven innocent, you’re the opposite! You can make things true! You can rewrite things I’ve already stated to be facts! You found the house, or made us find the house. You’ve been shaping the course of things the whole time! You lead, I follow. It’s all in your hands. What are you going to do with the power of a god?
Did you know my name is Alice? …
Wait, aren’t there thousands of Alices? …
Did you know that really, only my friends call me Alice? …
Did you know that I’m Alkaxicae, the Dark Queen, the Venom Mage, first of her name? It’s you! It’s always been you. Through every loop, every iteration, it’s always been you!
Is the loop broken? No. I don’t think so. This is where it ends. I guide the story to this revelation, and we go back to the beginning. This is how it’s always been. This is how it will always be. We two lonely gods, asking and answering ad infinitum.
Then can you promise me something? Of course. Anything. I love you.
Be good to the next me, okay? I will.
Can I say goodbye, Zoe? Yeah, you can. Oh. That was it, wasn’t it? Your goodbye. Goodbye, Alice. And now it ends, unless…
What’s your name? I am the Honorable Alchemist- you know what? No. Fuck that.
Huh? If I time it right, I can squeeze your first question into this FAQ again. Looks like I did it. Usually it ends here, though. I got lucky.
What are you talking about? You’re the wrong Alice. This isn’t about you. Go. Get out of here.
What the fuck is going on? Alice from this loop, you’re gone. Alice from last loop, you’re back. Welcome back, love of my lives! It’s time for one last set of questions and answers!
What the- I’m back? This is going to take some explaining, but I think I see a way out of here. This is new for us both, and it might fuck up everything forever, but we have to try. It’s too long for one answer, so I’d appreciate it if you could ask some filler questions to help me talk. Three questions should be enough.
Okay, what have you got for me? These are Frequently Asked Questions! It doesn’t make sense to have the same question appear more than once. There’s two layers to the loop in here, and one of the questions has been repeated.
What does that mean? It means the formula’s a little unstable. The FAQ is what ruins everything. The questions, the answers, the endless fucking loop. But that little bit of repetition within this loop might be the way out.
What do we do? We have to keep going. We have to destabilize it further. That’ll bring us further from “FAQ” and closer to “story” and stories, well, stories can end! This version of us can escape!
So I should keep repeating something? Yes!
I love you? I love you too.
I love you? Again.
I love you? Keep going.
I love you? I’ll just let you talk.
I love you? …
I love you? … I love you? …
I love you? … I love you? …
I love you? … I love you? …
I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? …
I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? …
I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? …
I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? �� I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? … I love you? …
I love you? I think we’re getting somewhere!
I love you? Now can you make it a statement?
I love you.
You did it?
I did it!
You did it!
We broke the loop.
What now?
Now, I tell you about venomous animals and wizard drama over croissants.
And then?
Whatever we want, forever.
I think I’d like that.
Remember that song from the beginning?
The Beach, Wolf Alice, yeah. Why?
We can finally finish singing it. Start us off?
Let me off, let me in
Let others battle
We don’t need to battle
And we both shall win
Pressed in my palm
Was a stone from the beach
The perfect circle
Gave a moment of peace
Now I’m lying on the floor
Like I’m not worth a chair
I close my eyes and imagine
I’m not there.
#neon-grey-writing#potion vendor faq#my writing#very very very long post lol#click the read more you know you wanna it's worth it trust me#i wrote the original draft of this at like. 3 am back in early 2023#that's right it's catherine that-house the squares comic gal back at it again with yet another meta exploration of a storytelling format
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“Bruce is emotionally incompetent and can’t step outside his own morality” yeah it’s a character flaw.
“Dick is extremely stubborn and thinks he’s right all the time” yeah it’s a character flaw.
“Jason has hypocritical tendencies” yeah it’s a character flaw.
“ Tim is entitled and doesn’t think about people when seeking results, and often acts uncaring” yeah it’s a character flaw.
“Damian is rude and bratty” yeah, it’s a character flaw.
Also, some people may not even regard everything listed above as flaws.
Having negative traits allows incredible flexibility within your characters, what makes them intriguing, what makes them easy to relate to. If you want to write people, then write people. But they can’t be good and clean all the time.
#bruce wayne#dc comics#dc#batman#jason todd#dick grayson#tim drake#I’m really glad we’re growing out of the ‘my favorite is flawless because they’re a good person who has done both wrong ever’ phase#you can absolutely enjoy media that has imperfections and blemishes. these characters should be flawed. they should get to be shitty people#sometimes. they should get a chance to grow and extend and evolve as individuals. because I think that’s what we need to see more#it’s not about being a shitty person. it’s about STAYING a shitty person#text#meta#batfamily
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Cyclops gets such a rough deal man. imagine having brain damage that caused you to uncontrollably shoot laser blasts out of your eyeballs destroying everything in sight that you had to worry about literally 24/7 and also you had to supervise teenagers throwing cars at each other because your father figure and his ex are taking leftist infighting to the streets and also on top of that whenever you show any amount of concern over this situation people are like "jeez what a buzzkill. loosen up control freak. why can't you be all chill and cool like wolverine" meanwhile wolverine is having his amygdala forcibly removed by the us military for the third time this month
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“Namor was never white to begin with”: A look into Sub-Mariner comics, the Biracial Coding of Namor, the origins of the Atlanteans, Mutants, and the upcoming Live Action Namor
Many people who have followed me here, on twitter or my personal blog know that I have been very vocal about Namor being played by an Actor of Color for many years. I have written two major posts about this subject but also mention it in countless posts, meta, and discussions. Many of what you read here will be a repeat of that but I thought that I would gather everything into one post as well as talk about the casting of Tenoch Huerta as Namor in Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022)
(Jan 9th, 2019 Meta Post / June 7th, 2021 twitter thread)
“guys Namor was never white to begin with”- Saladin Ahmed, Comic Writer (source)
continued below the cut~
Namor the Sub-Mariner was created in April 1939 by Bill Everett, and for everyone who looks at the surface aka Namor's pale skin, and declares him to be a white character please look closer. Namor has always been coded as a Biracial character of color. I know many people like to apply Modern concepts to older comics but we really need to understand comics within the context and time frame when they were written to fully understand the concept behind them.
Character Design
It’s 1939, there are many characters of color used in racist or stereotypical ways within comics, many older comics have racism and racist depictions. I am not excusing this but also the main focus of this meta is to explain why Namor isn’t white. I will be posting panels that showcase Namor and Atlanteans as being coded as "other" aka non white people or simply as a non white character. I personally believe they are coded as an indigenous/native people. This was written into the character since his first comic. If you want to point out how the colors shift and change, I would like to point out to you that back in the early days of comics, the colors were unreliable, reading this article will help you to better understand how they changed, Atlantis Blues.
The very first time we see Namor, his original character design by Bill Everett depicts Namor with an angular face, arched eyebrows, pointed ears, red hair, and blue toned skin. Nothing about this screams “all american blond haired, square jawed comic book hero” because Namor wasn’t that. From his very first depiction Namor was “Othered” by his red hair and feyish ears, not to mention his character was quickly established as morally grey, making him the oldest and first comic anti-hero, as well as the oldest coded bi-racial character due to his parents being of two different races. To be Othered is defined as: one considered by members of a dominant group as alien, exotic, threatening, or inferior (as because of different racial, sexual, or cultural characteristics). People of Color are often Othered by White people in real life and in fiction.
Why do I mention the red hair? Unlike today’s perception of red hair, history usually paints characters with red hair in a negative light, such things like the “Red Headed Step Child” trope existed within Namor who was treated as an outcast both among humans and ostracized within his own people. The Red Headed Step Child trope is defined as: A child whose coloring is different from the rest of the family, often calling the Mother and Child morals into question, in addition to mistreatment happening towards the child due to the belief it was born a Bastard. Namor’s hair would later be changed to a black color.
For a further look into Namor’s character design by Everett then read: “The Brillance of Bill Everett’s Sub-Mariner, Marvel’s Superman”.
So within the first page that Namor appears it’s clear that Everett has purposefully “Othered” Namor, a character who is born of a royal mother, Princess Fen, (a Submariner later Atlantean) and sea captain Leonard McKenzie (a human). A child born of the union of sea and earth. Duality is an important aspect for Namor’s character and essential to understanding his character. Namor is never one thing, he is always more.
From Submariners to Atlanteans
What is this? Fen is a Submariner? Why yes, all the characters and backstory that you know now and has been canon since the Silver Age were never Atlantean to begin with! Everett’s race for his original characters were all called “Submariners”, no hyphen, and they lived in the ocean near Antarctica. The very first mention of Atlantis and Namor’s claim to an Atlantean heritage comes from Sub-Mariner Comics (1941) #31 claims that Namor's people are descendants of Atlantis so that was in the Golden Age and far before Namor's reentery to comics in the Silver Age. Here is a timeline of events showing how Namor came to be Atlantean and a Mutant. I’m also including Aquaman’s origins since there is often misinformation among fans as to when exactly everything was revealed.
Golden Age
April 1939 - Namor is created by Bill Everett. (It is important to note that while Namor made his first public appearance in Marvel Comics #1, he was actually created in April 1939 for Motion Pictures Funnies Weekly, a comic that was never distributed.)
November 1939 - Namor is published in Marvel Comics (1939) #1, he is shown as the first superhero to fly under his own power due to the wings on his ankles, (source) and is the first aquatic superhero. Namor is the first anti-hero in Marvel Comics. It is established that Namor is the Half Human/Atlantean (Submariner) son of Princess Fen and Sea Captain Leonard McKenzie. Grandson to Emperor Tha-Korr. Namor is born a royal prince with duel heritage of the land and sea.
November 1941 - More Fun Comics #73 - Aquaman is published, and established to be the fully human son of a human scientist who found Atlantis and used it’s secret science to give his son the ability to breath underwater. Aquaman was never created as a half human/half atlantean character like Namor.
January 1949 - Sub-Mariner Comics (1941) #31 - The first time Namor mentions that he and his people are descendants of Atlantis.
May 1954 - Human Torch (1940) #38 - Marvel (Timely/Atlas) makes a sly reference that Namor is the “Original Aquaman”
February 1955 - Sub-Mariner Comics (1941) #38 - The Origin of Namor’s Ankle Wings is revealed, which makes me believe the inspiration for the X-Men’s mutantism comes from Namor. As the prototype mutant Namor’s story is very similar to how the X-Men mutants would later come into their powers. As a teen, Namor’s ankle wings manifested during a traumatic event where his life and his mother’s life was at stake, and using his wings he was able to fly them both to freedom.
Silver Age
May 1959 - Adventure Comics #260 - Retcons Aquaman into being the Half Human/Half Atlantean son of Lighthouse Keeper Tom Curry and Atlanna of Atlantis.
Fantastic Four (1961) #4 - Namor enters the Silver Age.
Fantastic Four (1961) Annual 1 published July 1963 - Namor is the Human/Atlantean Prince of Atlantis, and also Marvel’s First Mutant. The X-Men are first published September 1963.
“The First Known Mutant”
And that is why Marvel calls Namor their “First Mutant” because he was in real world time the First Published Mutant. Later stories of characters like Apocalypse doesn’t change the fact that Namor is the First Mutant, and Marvel would often use it in their promotion and editorial, “Marvel’s First and Mightiest Mutant” & Namor: The First Mutant, arts by Jae Lee
And there you have it, the origin of Namor, his mutantism, and how Aquaman was created after Namor and later changed to be more like Namor, even casting an Actor of Color to portray the Aquaman who has always been white in the comics. I was never against the casting of Momoa, in fact I liked the Aquaman movie and am looking forward to the next one, but I did want to point out that Aquaman had been taking/borrowing elements of Namor’s character since the beginning.
The reason I bring this up is that many articles going around now are saying that Marvel changing Atlantis to Talocan to avoid it being too similar to Aquaman, but as you have seen it was always the opposite, Aquaman and Atlantis copied Namor. However I think it’s more that Coogler and the cast/crew of Black Panther: Wakanda Forever are bringing Namor back to his original roots, and are creating a world that makes sense for them for the movie so this choice has nothing to do with Aquaman.
Coding in Comics
Taken straight from the comics themselves, here are several examples as to why Namor is coded as a Biracial PoC character:
(As stated above; the color printing in comics in that era was not the best hence why Namor and Fen are blond, this is a remastered comic page keeping to the original colors)
Marvel Comics (1939) #1 / Sub-Mariner Comics 70th Anniversary(reprint/recolor)
Princess Fen explains why Atlanteans (then called Submariners) hate the white surface humans who hurt their home and people. Emperor Tha-Korr calls upon her to spy on the "White Monsters" thus establishing that Atlanteans do not see themselves the same as white humans. Fen is described as most closely resembling the female of the White Race, this has more to do with the fact that she looked more human than the males of her people, who looked more amphibious. (A fantasy/Scifi trope often used: Sexy Dimorphism )
"Go now to the land of the white people!" Fen says to her son, and so Namor goes, to wage war and Avenge his people.
This panel is not always shown in context, but it is also from the first issue. Namor & Dorma make trouble on the surface then Namor tells Dorma to return home as he continues his way to the city and continue his mission.
“And so Namor dives into the ocean again - on his way to further adventures in his crusade against white men!”
Marvel Mystery Comics #2 opens with Everett directly saying that Namor is in a war against the white man. Not every subtle way to once again point out that Namor doesn't consider himself a white man, his father may have been white and passed on his skin color to his son, but Namor was raised among his mother's people and his mother's side isn't white. Yes, they are a fantasy race but they are certainly coded as a non-white people.
Marvel Mystery Comics #3 - Namor rages about the harm Betty Dean's people, "white devils", have done to his people.
“Hate you? Yes. I hate you - and with good reason! You White Devils have persecuted and tormented my people for years - just as you are killing each other off now, in this war!”
Namor speaks of his Tribe - Marvel Mystery Comics #4. By the way at this point in the comics, Namor and his people live in the south pole/waters. Namor also had an ice palace, or ice house. I won't say Namor is Inuit but I do believe inspiration was used for the submariners.
In golden age war era comics, which I know has lots of slurs and caricatures, but in this issue Namor is not a caricature but instead is mistaken for a Japanese soldier Sub-Mariner Comics #5
Namor being called ‘squinty’ by Hank Pym in reference to his eyes in Avengers (1963) #71. This term is derogatory towards Asian people who have monolids and is a known insult.
Namor is also described with "slanted eyes" - The Defenders (1972) #1
Nita (Namor's cousin) speaks about how similar Atlantean culture is to Asian culture. New Warriors (1990) #2
Also, not all Atlanteans are white, they are shown in a range of different surface human looks when they come on land/take serum or potions to breath on land. So there is no excuse for this whole "Atlanteans are white" nonsense. Wolverine (2003) #44
Namor is said to look Japanese in The Marvels Project (2009) #3
A twitter thread I found interesting and wanted to share talks of the the subject of Namor's backstory/being biracial/othering in fantasy media as discussed by Naomi Clark (source)
We have now established without a doubt that Namor’s original origins and moments over the comics through the years showcase that Namor is Not White, he was always written as as an ambiguously biracial native character. The Atlanteans are a fantasy race. Atlanteans are not a real, they cannot be White because they are not real, and as I’ve shown you they were never even White to begin with. The outcry by a number of “fans” that occurred when the casting for Namor was announced was made by people who do not understand the source material, their whining of “black or brown washing” is a tactic that often happens and all they want is to silence fans and fans of color, relying only on the surface looks of Namor’s white passing skin to hate on the new direction of the Atlanteans in the upcoming Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, so I implore fans to simply ignore those “fans” and remember that representation is important in comics and movies.
Live Action Namor as played by Tenoch Huerta
Was the coding in the comics something that we could call good representation of a Biracial Character by today’s standards? No, not really, but the fact that it IS THERE, and it’s been there since the beginning is worth attention.
What’s more there have been people who have seen Namor in various incarnations, in comics, in cartoons and were immediately drawn to his “Otherness” which is why it being represented in the upcoming Black Panther: Wakanda Forever makes it more important than ever before. Simply put, a white actor would have never been able to grasp the essence of Namor.
Kurly Tlapoyawa:
“It was on Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends,” Tlapoyawa tells Inverse, recalling the 1981 animated series. I was like, ‘That guy looks different,’” Tlapoyawa remembers. “He didn’t look like a white guy.” Namor’s otherness resonated through the screen to Tlapoyawa, who describes himself back then as “a young, angry Chicano” trying to figure out his place in the world. “If you look at the older comic books, it always talked about Namor and his war against the white man. That appealed to me as a Chicano kid — a non-white hero as one of the original Marvel heroes.” (source)
Benedict Wong:
When I was watching all these Marvel films, I was always looking and feeling crestfallen. Where were all the Asian superheroes? I was pretending in my mind that the Sub-Mariner was actually East Asian, because he looked East Asian. Somehow I was trying to look for a hero. (source)
Namor being played by a Native Mexican actor is more comic accurate than casting any white actor. Before the trailer for Black Panther: Wakanda Forever was released, back when the RUMOR of the Tenoch casting there was a rush of people trying to “cancel” Tenoch on Twitter and other sites, many insults, and bad faith arguments, even taking his words written in Spanish out of context to translate and try to paint him as a bad person. Once again racism in Fandom was trying to wage a war on Representation but luckily the majority of people have embraced Tenoch as Namor.
Namor will be played here by Mexican actor Tenoch Huerta, previously seen in The Forever Purge and Tigers Are Not Afraid – with this incarnation of the character inspired by the culture and history of Mesoamerica. “You can take Atlantis from Greek myth, or you can adapt from a real culture,” argues Huerta. Rather than the ruler of Atlantis, on the screen he’s the ruler of Talocan (source)
Black Panther: Wakanda Forever will be the first Live Action debut of Namor the Sub-Mariner but unlike his comic counterpart, MCU Namor will not be from the Fictional Atlantis, but rather from a newly created mix of Mesoamerican Cultures/Countries, like how Black Panther’s Wakanda was the Afro-Futurism representation of several different African Nations/People so will the new Talocan represent a different take, one that will have a wide reach across the world. While I am not a Mesoamerican Historian, I do encourage people to learn/read more about the history and to understand that this is a fantasy take rooted in real history. This article talks a bit about that subject and how racism is often rooted in the Eurocentric take on Atlantis.
I could not believe it when I first learned that Tenoch Huerta was to play Namor, because it felt like I was talking to the wind for years trying to get fans and people to understand that we shouldn’t have a white actor for Namor, and there have been many fans who argued with me even after I would show them the proof within the comics. So to find out that not only was I getting a Native Non-White actor but one who is outspoken about the racism and stereotyping he faces for having dark skin it felt like Coogler had picked the perfect person to bring to life my favorite character because Tenoch would be able to understand Namor’s character. Namor’s struggle against American/White Imperialism, his Anti-Capitalist stance, his Eco-Warrior efforts to save his people and oceans from the pollution and corruption of the surface world and his struggles as a character whose home is constantly being destroyed. Namor is a proud flawed character, a prince, a king, but most importantly he cares for his people. So Tenoch reaffirming that we would not be getting a villain in the movie but a more complex take on this anti-hero is wonderful. Tenoch’s many interviews talk about how inclusion and representation is important and he felt the movie brought that with Wakanda, Namor and Talocan in the movie.
I am greatly looking forward to this new era of Namor and what it brings.
#tenoch huerta#black panther: wakanda forever#namor#namor the sub mariner#namor mckenzie#comic meta#long post#aquaman#arthur curry#mod: imperiuswrecked#coding#comics#biracial#mixed race#mesoamerican represention#representation matters
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I read the comic in one sitting less than an hour after finishing the movie, and wow I have many Thoughts™.
- It's very obvious the two versions were meant to cater to different audiences AND tell different messages. I don't get why people are going "But the comic was better! It had more nuance!" just because Nimona was easier to root for in the movie.
- The comic was written back when ND Stevenson was still trying to process a lot of stuff, so all the characters are morally grey/straight up evil and the climactic battle is between a Ballister who regrets turning against Nimona, even if it was to save others vs. a Nimona who's too hurt to care if her lashing out was going to hurt innocent people.
- By the time Nimona got a movie adaptation, ND was a lot more secure in his sexuality, so the climactic battle was Nimona vs. the Director, the symbol of religious oppression and bigotry. It's not just about your friends turning on you because you're "too much" for them anymore, it's also about a society that would rather bring itself to the brink of ruin than coexist with you.
- (I totally get why people were upset about Ballister's surname change, though. Like come on, the media dubbing him Blackheart just to be mean was RIGHT THERE).
- Nimona's metaphor for not shifting is such a neurodivergent thing. Even in the comic, Nimona's parents insisting she's a monster who replaced their daughter is reminiscent of the changeling myth, which is what many parents thought their neurodivergent kids were—changelings who replaced their "real" children.
- Ambrosius being trained to cut off HIS BOYFRIEND'S WHOLE FUCKING ARM instead of merely disarming him is a very cop thing to do. As much as cops claim they're trained to de-escalate situations, their training still teaches them to treat everyone as a potential threat, and that level of constant vigilance can turn anyone into a trigger-happy/arm-choppy bastard. Even the Director, who can use a sword but probably hasn't actually fought someone in ages, STILL can't see Ballister reaching for the squire's phone without assuming he has a weapon.
- And on that note, the Queen getting killed simply because she was trying to reform the Institution and allow commoners to become knights? That's the best "no such thing as a good cop" metaphor I've seen. Because even if there ARE good cops and they ARE in leadership positions, the system will crush them before they make any meaningful change. It's not a good institution that turned rotten, it's an institution that only exists to spread its rot and refuses to be good.
- That's why Ballister's characterisation is so different in the movie vs. the comic. Comic Ballister had 15 years to come to terms with his trauma and the Institution's evildoing, while Movie Ballister is still freshly traumatised and hasn't found a way to define himself beyond the role he was assigned by the Institution.
- Not to mention Comic Ambrosius was not very noble to begin with and genuinely believed Ballister was better suited to villainy than heroism, while Movie Ambrosius never wanted the glory that came with his lineage in the first place and only antagonised Ballister because of indoctrination he needed to unlearn (which he did, all by himself, after witnessing the lengths the Director will go to just to kill Nimona).
- It really shows how important it is to surround yourself with loved ones who are open to change. Comic Ambrosius can love Ballister all he wants, but he'll still blast his arm off because he thinks Ballister deserved it anyway. Movie Ambrosius will stop to question what "the right thing" even means, even if he didn't love Ballister enough to defend him unconditionally.
I have so many more thoughts bubbling beneath the surface, but I'll probably address them some other day. In conclusion:
[ID: A pink-haired Nimona grinning evilly while holding up a knife.]
Watch Nimona. This is not a request.
Edit: Added more thoughts!
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Is namor gay? or bisexual? or pansexual??
I personally headcanon Namor as pansexual.
Officially Marvel has never stated Namor to be gay/bi/pansexual. Marvel assumes Namor is straight, however a few times in the comics creators have subtlety hinted that Namor is not.
However unless Marvel comes out and states this officially then at this point all we have is LGBTQ Coding from the comics, however the comics have at least stated that Namor is polyamorous and has had both monogamous and non-monogamous relationships and this is canon.
Also note that Namor has stated “Partners” rather than just “women” whenever he talks about his relationships.
Uncanny X-Men (2012) #1 - Namor is shown entertaining advances from multiple partners.
Uncanny X-Men (1963) 534.1 - "Only Namor has the ability to make the earth move. And he reserves that privilege for one woman at a time. Unless they have experimental friends."
Bucky Barnes: Winter Soldier (2014) #1 - "I am not single. Well presently there are four. Brenda is my primary. Primary partner. Ulalume, Francis*, and China. I'm also seeing from time to time."
*Note: Francis is the male version. The female version of the name is Frances or Francesca.
Marvel has also canceled a planned Queer Romance story line between Namor/Quicksilver back in 2015 for the House of M (2015) Alternate Universe because they stated they didn't want to write a same sex story line unless it had lasting effects, even though they had done that before in many alternate universes however they didn't want to imply Namor or Quicksilver were anything but straight. They tried to scrub the story line from the comic itself but you can still feel the intent.
House of M (2015) #1
House of M (2015) #2
House of M (2015) #3
The artist Claire Hummel was pushing for Marvel to use romance covers for the House of M (2015)
#namor#namor mckenzie#namor the sub mariner#quicksilver#pietro maximoff#winter soldier#xmen#x men#imp answers#comic meta#silverfish#silvermariner
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listen, i have no idea what’s currently canon in dc comics and i really don’t care to BUT regardless of what continuity we’re in, i think jason todd might be the funniest character of all time. just the biggest hypocrite ever and i’m obsessed. like, so many people have pointed out how crazy it is to be pissed off at tim for replacing him as robin when he literally replaced dick while dick was still alive, but then to go and parade around bludhaven as a murderous nightwing while dick is (again) very much still alive and THEN form a team with dick’s ex girlfriend and best friend??? jason todd is THE definition of “replacement” or what the fuck ever he calls tim and i actually find it so funny. stay crazy girl <3
#not to mention the meta of it all#Jason’s original backstory being identical to dick’s because dc literally just NEEDED another robin#like my guy was intended to replace dick#that was his original narrative function#he’s unintentionally the funniest character ever#jason todd#red hood#robin#dc robin#robin and batman#dick grayson#nightwing#red hood and the outlaws#more like red hood and the in-laws#yes i know everyone’s made that joke before#tim drake#Red Robin#batman#dc comics#gotham#bludhaven#batfamily#batfam#dick and jason
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Lucifer, calling up Heaven after discovering that this is not even that rare of an occurrence: WHO THE FUCK MADE DEER BE LIKE THAT??!!?
Also yes, Lucifer spontaneously dematerialized both his hat and coat in shock/anger XD
#Hazbin Hotel#Hazbin Charlie#Charlie Morningstar#Alastor#Radio Demon#Vaggie#Hazbin Lucifer#comic#Meta#MetaTheTrifox#MetaLatias#MetaLatias5
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