#“Actually some trans men have history in the lesbian community and identified as butch before coming out-” thats great for them care about
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I really hate when transandrophobia guys try and lump butches in with them to try and prove people are oppressed for being masculine like...we have a word for the oppression butches face and its called misogyny.....and some butches also face transmisogyny because transfem butches exist like its just women being punished for going outside of the accepted boundaries of womanhood...you know......misogyny......
And really the point is that you should be suspicious of anyone who talks a big deal about including trans men in the lesbian community while completely fucking ignoring trans women lmao
#And you see this shit everywhere once you learn to notice it#“Actually some trans men have history in the lesbian community and identified as butch before coming out-” thats great for them care about#Trans women and actually including them in communities theyre CURRENTLY a part of lol#Anyways good morning sorry i have to make posts so i can steal the weird anons my mutuals get
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Is everyone willingly ignoring it or when are we going to realize this petty label discourse has always been rooted in misogyny. This started long before Bi Lesbians. Some of you are just too new or simply never paid enough attention to realize the history of this hatred of lesbians. Do any of you remember?
First it was "Butches aren't valid" because they were invading wlw spaces with their "masculinity"
Then it was moved onto: "Trans women aren't valid" because actually they were the ones invading wlw spaces with their "masculinity" The exact same arguement being used against cis women as well.
Then "Pan/Bi women aren't valid" because your attraction to men or anyone other than a woman doesn't belong in wlw spaces.
Then it was "Nonbinary lesbians aren't valid" because if you're "not a woman" by my definition you're invading wlw spaces.
"Asexual/Aro women aren't valid" because your lack of "real" attraction to women doesn't belong in wlw spaces.
"Lesboys aren't valid" because you are invading wlw spaces with your "masculinity"
"Bi/Pan lesbians aren't valid" because your attraction to men or anyone other than a woman doesn't belong in wlw spaces.
Oh wait? Where have we heard those last two before? Wasn't everyone arguing about those SAME issues with Butches/Trans wlw and Pan/Bi wlw?
Yes, exactly. Would any of you take ONE look back and realize this is only repetition of problems we have already decided don't dictate our identities?
They say, "You're not a real lesbian unless you do this and that and even if you do that you'll never be good enough." No matter what lesbains do, there will always be a problem. Why? Because this isnt about being a lesbian, this isnt about women, this is rhetoric started by terfs and it will never be anything more.
Sure, you can follow their rules to feel valid, but you'll never be good enough. You're an invader too because they'll sprinkle in little things to feed the insecurities and rules that THEY fucking created.
You're not a real lesbian unless you're a "gold star lesbain" meaning you've never dated or been attracted to a man. You're not a real lesbian unless you're feminine. You're not a real lesbian unless you hate masculinity.
Which is just translation for: You're not a real wlw unless you hate men and don't deviate from gender norms. And, WHO would've thought! Is exactly what terfs want.
They sink their claws into the newer generations because they don't remember what our community has had to go through, all they see is the fake issues created and they think it's a threat because they're being fed "This is what's valid and this is what's not" and it seems like it's never going to end because women being anything other than passive and simple with their identities are immediately taken as a threat to the community by those who are insecure and need to demand the exclusion of anyone who doesn't follow their rules to feel like theyre part of a group.
Anti-Bi/Pan Lesbians have become sheep because they only surround themselves with online discourse instead of the real issues LGBTQ people face and in their attempt to keep a "clean community" They're more unwelcomed than the people they tell to kill themselves. So caught up in fake problems others or themslves have made up that they fail to grasp the simplest of concepts: Labels DO NOT exist in real life. Labels are created to help people describe how they feel or identify. They are not and have NEVER been a final definition.
Labels are worn HOWever and WHENever the owner feels like it. They're not collars. They're not cages. You can't use them as such. You can't use them against us.
When? WHEN? When did we decide that a label- A WORD- matters MORE than the real life feelings that real life people are experiencing?
Why did we dehumanize the ability to feel attraction and expression?
#Been wanting to say this for a long ass time. when is this going to end. why does everyone hate lesboans freedom to express andlove#lesbian#wlw#misogyny#transphobia#biphopia#panphobia#aphobia#not warriors#mspec lesbian
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haii!!! actual lesbian here! you can't be both bi and a lesbian! lesbian means non men that like other non men! ur a non lesbian so you should go kys!!!! ^-^
because we all know what you mean, you don't see us trans girls as woman so you say that bi lesbians exist because you're scared of us transbians!
now go fuck off! your carrds aren't valid sources and lesbians have never liked men!
-From, an actual lesbian <3
fascinating. do you tell everyone you disagree with to kill themselves or am i just special?
it's also really cool how you're putting words in my mouth. bi lesbian as a label has nothing to do with being "scared" of transbians and i'd love to see your source for that claim.
and carrds might not be valid sources, but what about Vintage Queer Literature and newsletters?
Like this newsletter from 1984 talking about bi lesbians being integral to the lesbian community?
(oh look at that, it also talks about how Some Lesbians treat them terribly! not much has changed, huh?)
Or perhaps this excerpt from Lavender Woman, which talks about bi lesbians all the way back in 1973?
Whoops I dropped this Google Doc full of vintage mentions of bisexual lesbians! Clumsy me! This one also talks about the awful and inaccurate "non-man loving non-man" thing a little)
Here's a Masterpost on the history of the term (with cited sources)
I would also like to point out that multigender lesbians exist and that means sometimes a lesbian is also a man. Sorry! You can't just go "lesbian means non-man loving non-man" without excluding tons of butch lesbians and trans lesbians who personally identify as partially men. Did you forget that bigender people are like... real? Genderfluid people?
(And before someone tries to imply that I'm implying that binary trans women are "partially men" or something, that's not what i'm saying and you know it. I'm talking about people who personally identify themselves as being both male and another gender)
tl;dr you have drunk the lesbian separatism kool-aid and need to log off because telling people to kill themselves and accusing them of being transmisogynistic with zero proof is abhorrent behavior + if you saw the butches im friends with you'd hurl
#tw suicide baiting#anon hate#this is a little all over the place but theres tons of people who have worded things like this better than i can#and i linked at least One person who did . so#not stim#ask to tag#long post
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Your post about butch and fem is so important + valid. Two friends of mine are butch and bisexual, but society often thinks they are just lebians because thats what everyone was taught.
hey thank you!
i've been getting a lot of asks to provide sources and i'm working to the best of my ability, but really the best source is finding those other queer people that identify that way. butch bisexuals... gd. what a sexy identity, quite possibly the sexiest people alive. that's me!
the terms did not start in the lesbian community, and they have never been exclusive to it or owned specifically by lesbians. some of the earliest uses of the term butch and femme come from what is known as polari, a code language that was first used among gay and gnc men and then quickly expanded to be used by queers of all stripes. the terms femme for the broad spectrum of feminine queers and butch for the broad spectrum of masculine queers were so ubiquitously used among american queer communities in the early to mid 1900s that it's literally laughable to make the claim that only lesbians use/d them. reading literature, like leslie feinberg's writings, from people who were alive and part of queer communities before the stonewall riots is extremely important to helping one understand the actual history behind our terms and how unnecessarily restrictive and sanitized our terms have become over time.
whether or not people are comfortable with hearing this, the people who tell you butch and femme are lesbian-only terms are parroting logic created by lesbian separatists, which are largely now what we know to be radfems and terfs. it's not a historical argument, it's one specifically designed to exclude trans people, butches, and bisexuals from rightfully identifying as who they are, and it's spread to the affecting the rest of community by that proxy. i understand that language evolves over time but this is not how the words were ever intended to be used, they were intended to, and were used historically in an inclusive fashion, not an exclusive one!
thank you for this, i appreciate it, and let your friends know they are awesome and to keep it up!
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i think i might be both lesbian and ftm (definitely homosexual, female, dysphoric, have considered transition for years and think it genuinely may help - its just putting the pieces together that gives me hesitation). im single, have dated a few other trans men when i identified differently, but ive never tried to date in the lesbian community. im trying to figure out how it would, i guess, work if i did transition? my current plan of "meet women & transmascs looking to date women or transmascs, tell them im a transmasc lesbian immediately, hope they understand what i mean and also mutual attraction is there" seems honest but possibly unlikely to work. am i missing something, or is it just a hard path im considering? i know one of the mods previously lived as a trans man so i was hoping you might have some experience or advice to share
Your identity, while it will sound wildly conflicting by the book, is actually not at all out there or anywhere near as rare as you'd believe. People are rarely black and white or fit into neat boxes, and transmasculine people have a long history with homosexual women. There have been, and continue to be today, butch lesbians who are taking testosterone or who have had mastectomies, and who go by male pronouns. Gender dysphoria and breaking the rules of our gendered society, in both gay and lesbian communities, has always been so prevalent that this cross-gender expression is rightfully part of our recognised cultural heritage, and one of the most rooted stereotypes associated with us. Even with the rise of transgender people's own, clearly separate rights movement, there is much more overlap in reality than these easy to identify labels would let you believe.
You, as an individual, do not have to be "lesbian" or "ftm" or "female" or "male" or "man" or "woman" in any particular way. It's up to you to express yourself, not your categories; while people instinctively assume that a label will cover all that you are, this is never the case for a person. We are so much more than these aspects of our identity.
And yes, the opposite is still true: there are gay men who date transgender women, and gay women who date transgender men. I follow plenty of trans channels to date as it's both relevant to my life now and to my history before and remains an interest, and some of these channels are for partners of trans people. One of the most common topics brought up is how to match one's identity label to the seemingly out-of-bounds relationship that is happening now, and seeing so many of them, and the unique situations of the people behind them, you come to realise that a label is not a natural fit for people, it's just something we make up to find community.
Further... beyond just exclusively gay people, we bisexuals are also here, we are plentiful, and we are absolutely wonderful. Not all of us, of course, are open to dating gender diverse people - but many others are, and we're typically quite relaxed when it comes to label complications simply because they don't challenge how we're expected to be dating, which is often a source of distress for both exclusively heterosexual and exclusively homosexual people when confronted with a relationship that isn't quite what the handbook said it would be.
Lastly, yes, you are choosing the hard path. That's just how things are, universally, for transitioned and transitioning people, and for lesbians, and for anybody else who is not the norm in our society. There are fewer of us, we are less understood, and we have fewer people whose attraction will naturally match with us either because it isn't how they're wired or because they've never brushed up with the idea beyond a hypotethical concept. However, this doesn't mean you're doomed by any means. Just using myself as an example: I'm truly a mess when it comes to gender, both trans and not trans at the same time and which label applies to me more depends entirely on the subject and the alignment of the stars, and though it's taken its sweet time coming, I've now been in a relationship with a wonderful nonbinary/gender diverse partner for well over a year. While they may not always understand the fine details of how my identity works, that can't really be expected of anybody, even somebody using the same label as I hypotethically might. I don't understand how theirs does all of the time, either - I'd say more than they don't get mine, as my struggles are largely of the transsexual variety, more about the body than expression, and theirs are more of the gender variety, where their identity and inner perception of self reign superior to the matters of the meat. But we don't have to be fully up to date on any of that: what we have in common is much more relevant to our everyday life than the fine details of the things we don't, and at the end of the day, what we have is a gay relationship, which - while it comes with its own struggles and difficulties - still allows for an amazing variety of self-expression in gender and identity both, even within this simple overarching label and state of existing in the world.
Whatever you choose, you'll find people you match up with, and in the end, it's better to be happy with yourself than unhappy with somebody else.
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regarding the trans man who was killed, his name is malte c. some news sources were actually very respectful of his transness and talked about how transphobia is deadly but yeah, the anon is right. the comments are full of misgendering and terfs using his death for their profit. then they cry victim and say that the "tra"s are blaming radfems for his death (not true). some even claim that he stepped in since he was lesbian himself (which is unknown). these people really are sick. though what i found funny was one terf argued that he might have been a lesbian because trans men and lesbians have some history together? and i would think, yes, brenda. very good that you see how queer and trans people DO have history together. almost as if we're a community that sticks up for one another and fights against our oppression.... an lgbtq+ community, even! shocking 😳!
Yeah they always bring up “trans men and lesbians have a shared history” like it’s some kind of gotcha?
Yes, we have a history because butch lesbians and trans men have many shared issues. And gender and sexuality aren’t always clear cut, some trans men identified as lesbians before and still feel a connection with that label, and you have people like me who are kind of on the cusp between a trans man and a masc lesbian. That’s why I call myself a lesboy.
He may have identified himself as a lesbian, he may not have. That’s not our business and the fact they’re using his death for their own politics and focusing on stuff like that about him is disgusting. The guy was beaten to death in a fucking hate crime. Have some respect.
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asexuality is not an ‘internet identity’, a fad, or fake.
as an asexual person myself, it’s difficult to deal with feeling both under-represented and excluded, both in cishet society AND lgbtq+ circles. the general conception regarding asexuality, in my experience, is that it’s a new identity, specifically a ‘tumblr snowflake’ identity, it’s not real, it’s a medical condition, etc etc. not only is this perspective genuinely hurtful and damaging, it’s just plain wrong.
asexuality’s history can be hard to pin down, exactly, outside of writings specifically about it because it’s difficult to write about an absence of something (in this case sexual encounters/attraction) rather than the presence of it. however, the concept has existed longer than our modern terms for it, as is the case with all other lgbtq+ identities.
unfortunately, I’m going to be speaking from an especially western standpoint, because I myself was born and raised in the western hemisphere and the sources I’m currently privy to are western.
before any terminology was coined, 17th century author and poet Catherine Bernard wrote various works that have since been read as relating to asexuality. her views of love, sex, marriage, and personal affairs (or lack thereof) speak to the asexual experience. here’s an article about her and her works for more information.
‘monosexual’ was a term coined in 1869 by Karl-Maria Kertbeny, the same man who coined the terms ‘homosexual’ and ‘heterosexual’ (all 3 in the same pamphlet, actually!). ‘monosexual’ refers to people who only masturbate, rather than have sexual encounters, the implication there being that monosexuals have no interest in sex/feel no need for it. (it’s a myth that asexual people don’t masturbate--some do, some don’t. asexual people have fully functioning equipment, and are perfectly capable of having and even enjoying orgasms. remember that stimulation of sexual organs is not the same thing as feeling attraction).
Kertbeny was a pretty cool dude, actually, or at least he was very progressive for his time regarding sexuality. he wrote that gay men were not inherently effeminate, that homosexuality was inborn and unchangeable, and that homosexuality had a long, long history, and many people they (and we) consider historical heroes were gay. Kertbeny was inspired to advocate for lgbtq+ people by a friend of his who had committed suicide after being blackmailed by an extortionist for his homosexuality.
in 1896 german sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld wrote the pamphlet Sappho und Sokrates, which discussed homosexual love and attraction, and referenced those who don’t feel sexual attraction. it is worth mentioning that he unfortunately connected asexuality with sexual anesthesia, which is the usually psychogenic condition that causes an absence of normal or expected sensations during sexual activity, as in, you have intercourse but can’t physically feel the stimulation. that is not what asexuality is.
In 1907, Carl Schlegel, a german immigrant to the US and Presbyterian minister wrote a speech advocating for lgbtq+ equality, and mentions asexuality by name: “Let the same laws for all the intermediate stages of sexual life: the homosexuals, heterosexuals, bisexuals, asexuals, be legal as they are now in existence for the heterosexuals[...]” Schlegel is considered one of the first modern gay activists in the US.
coming back to Magnus Hirschfeld, he adopted the term asexual in his 1920 work, The Role of Homosexual Men and Women in Society, writing: “we must (if this were possible) describe” philosophers like Immanuel Kant “as being asexual.”
since its development in 1948, the Kinsey Scale has an X category for those who don’t experience sexual attraction.
in the 1960s, the magazine Transvestia (founded by transwoman Virginia Prince in 1960, and ran from 1960-1980) published an article that claimed that, while most trans people “are entirely heterosexual,” “some are also asexual.” in 1965 the same magazine published the “A-Sexual Range”--sort of an early prototype for the modern asexual spectrum--which stated “There are persons who simply have a very low libido—no sex drive to speak of.”
in 1969 Anton Szandor LeVey, founder of the Church of Satan, wrote in his book The Satanic Bible that “Satanism condones any type of sexual activity which properly satisfies your individual desires – be it heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or even asexual.”
in 1970 the Philadelphia, PA newspaper, Gay Dealer, published an article on trans liberation, saying that it “includes transvestites, transsexuals, and hermaphrodites of any sexual manifestation and of all sexes—heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual.”
in 1972, The Asexual Manifesto was published by the New York Radical Feminists. although the term asexual is used, it is a radfem publication so bear that in mind and be cautious in reading it.
at a feminist conference in 1973, female and nonbinary attendees were asked to wear a label identifying themselves as one of the following: “Straight, Lesbian, Gay, Butch, Femm, Asexual, Anti-sexual, ?, other, etc.”
in the same year, activists at a conference at Barnard college provided labels for lgbtq+ identities.
in 1974, David Bowie discussed asexuality in Rolling Stones magazine.
in 1977, Myra Johnson wrote one of the first academic papers about asexuality for the book The Sexually Oppressed. she described asexuality as a complete lack of sexual attraction, which is the definition we generally use today!
if you’ve read all the way down here, and needed some convincing, I hope you’re getting the picture. asexuality is a long standing, clearly defined community, with its first term (monosexual) coined alongside homosexual and heterosexual. we have been recognized, by name, for nearly 200 years, and the concept/feeling has existed long before that. asexuality is not a disease, a medical condition, an internet fad, or a joke. asexuals experience discrimination, lack of representation, and a the general misunderstanding that other sexual minorities experience. asexuality has not been institutionally discriminated against because, as previously said, you can’t really prove or prosecute an absence in the same way one can a presence. however, in 2015, Russia banned people with “disorders of sexual preference” from obtaining drivers’ licenses, and the list included asexuals.
this post is not nearly an exhaustive list of asexual history. if you want/need more information on asexuality, I’d recommend @historicallyace, the Asexual Visibility and Education Network, the Asexual Census, and this great article on cracked.com about general ace experiences.
if anyone reading this post has more info and sources, please add them!
happy reading!
#lmk if i fucked something up in here....it looks fine but i dont trust my eyes#asexual#asexuality#aven#lgbt history#lgbtq history#queer history#my post#please feel free to add on sources n such or further commentary#but not exclusionists. is2g if you clown on this post#like at least read it man
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bi lesbians are both lesbophobic and biphobic actually and not because they don’t make sense to our oppressors, i dont give a fuck about that, but because the whole label ‘lesbians’ means an attraction to women and non binary people and a lack of attraction to men, while bisexual women fought to build their own community and people like you who never interacted with an actual lgbt person irl and who get all their lgbt knowledge from tumblr dot com keep invalidating our identity and keep violating us. and before you pull the terf card: calling anything lesbians (and bisexuals for that matter) say that you don’t agree with terf ideology is a lesbophobic and biphobic (or lets just call it homophobic) dog whistle and you know that because everything you said so far proves that you hate lgbt people soooo much.
Gee, there's a lot of assumptions about me here and a lot of straw man arguments too... Okay, let's get into that:
Considering there's documentations of bi-pan lesbians dating pre-internet, no. Also I did not call anything a lesbian said that I disagree with terf ideology, I called an individual being anti bi-pan lesbian radfem ideology. Radfem =/= terf, and terf =/= lesbian, and I never said all lesbians are terfs/radfems/or anything similar, and I never said I disagree with lesbians either, in fact there's lesbians (yes lesbians who are not attracted to men! Who have said these things!)
Also to say lesbian is attraction to women and nonbinary people but not men erases a long line of trans masculine history within the lesbian community, and although no lesbians don't have to be attracted to men. Some are? And that's okay? He/Him lesbians are often men, Butches may sometimes be men, they may also be lesbians. Yes, some lesbians may not be attracted to men! But some are!
Lesbian actually used to be used the way we would use sapphic currently, just like how one might have used transvestite the way we use transgender, and transgender to mean what we now call nonbinary. Words change there meanings over time, but if a word once existed in one form, we cannot expect individuals to cease it's use, hence why I said "words that were faught to be used". Not everyone agrees with the use of the word transvestite, not everyone agrees with the use of the word transgender, and not everyone agrees on the specifics of how each word should be used. To say that someone cannot use an identity they may have used the past 50 years or more is wrong, to say that someone born next year could not identify with that label 20 years later is also wrong.
I think it's interesting you think you know where I get all my information on this and assume I've never interacted with lgbtq people in real life?? To assume I don't know the history of my own community!! Hilarious!!
Also I hate lgbt people? I am lgbt people plz try again 🙏
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what are your thoughts on transmasc/transmasc non-binary lesbians?
Imo it’s not up to anyone to police anybody else’s identity, just. Point blank.
It’s not productive- if someone is using labels “wrong”, or identifying as part of a community they don’t really fit into, they’ll figure that out on their own sooner or later. It tends to become pretty clear when your experiences don’t really align with other people’s in a group, and the vast majority of people will leave in favor of a community they relate better to.
In the meantime, the “harm” they’re causing can be boiled down to just the potential that a cis/straight person might meet them, learn about the identity from that person, and be misinformed. At worst, they might take that misinformation as validation of bigoted beliefs they already hold. But ask yourself; is a cis/straight person’s bigotry really the fault of the people they’re bigoted against? Or is it the fault of the bigot, and the larger system of oppression?
Even then- we physically cannot police people’s identities effectively, because no person alive knows what anybody else’s “correct” identity is better than the person with that identity. No matter how well you know a person, or how long you interrogate them. Normalizing that kind of gatekeeping will always, always, always result in mistakes and in real queer people getting actually hurt. It’s best we internalize that knowledge as soon as we can, and kill the cops in our heads telling us otherwise.
That said, transmascs who identify as lebsians aren’t “using labels wrong” to begin with. “Transmasc” itself isn’t shorthand for “trans man”, or “nonbinary people I think are basically just trans men, but I’m being ~inclusive~”. The label includes trans men, but it also includes any other trans person who identifies with the experience of transitioning in a generally masculine direction.
There are transmascs who are also women, there are transmascs who identify with womanhood, among many others. For some transmascs, “lesbian” is just the most natural and sensible label for them to use.
Transmascs have also, historically, been a part of the lesbian or butch community. Most of us who align more with manhood don’t want to be a part of that community, and imo, it’s a good thing we’re our own community now. Still, it’s part of our history. And I don’t think it makes sense to start stripping that history, and that label, away from people who fought to have it long before we were even born.
I don’t think it makes sense to deny its legitimacy now, to try to lay boundaries around what people are “allowed” to feel or say they feel.
#transmasc#trans#transgender#lesbian#not horses#sorry for the ABSOLUTELY UNWEILDY RESPONSE#got that adderall wordiness kjhskjdsfg#Anonymous
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This post is an apology I wrote in 2019. (more below the cut)
Hi all-- This is an apology regarding a post I wrote in May 2019 (that I’ve since deleted and apologized for, although not in enough detail.) In it I wrote some history behind the terms butch/femme, and I foolishly claimed that butch & femme are lesbian-exclusive terms. At the time I only saw this as an opinion of semantics, because I believed the definitions of butch/femme existed as a redefinition of femininity & masculinity completely removed from men or attraction to men. I had only ever seen butch/femme used by other lesbians, and the sources I used for research reinforced this as fact in my mind. But that doesn’t really matter, because I was wrong.
At the time I did not realize these things:
1. The term “lesbian” in the latter half of the 20th century was actually used more like the way we understand wlw or women loving women today, meaning “lesbian” circles often included women and genderqueer folks who were actually bi or pan without a name for their identity yet. This also includes newfound lesbians who had a history with men (which doesn’t make them any less of a lesbian).
2. Bi and Pan women & nonbinary people have used butch/femme as personal identities for decades, and it’s not a recent phenomenon. I would like to thank the bi women who took the time to tell me this, and I apologize for sharing misinformation in my original post.
and 3. I was, essentially, gatekeeping the personal identities of strangers, which is something I strongly abhor and I’ve actively spoken out against in the LGBTQ+ community for years. It took me about a week or so to realize what I said was wrong-- I reacted a defensively to some of the messages I got, and I regret that. But I deepened my research and spoke to actual bi/pan/queer people and came to understand why I was wrong.
Anyway, the reason I’m making this post is not because I want anyone’s forgiveness or blessing, and I understand if you don’t trust me or don’t want to follow me any longer. I just genuinely want to apologize for the hurt I caused and let everyone know that I’ve grown and learned from this. I’m on your side.
I want people to know they can talk to me if I’m mistaken or perpetuating harmful ideology. I’m still learning and growing and I’m aware more now than ever that my platform comes with responsibility to be inclusive and loving, and not needlessly exclusionary. Again, I apologize for sharing misinformation and hurting anyone who felt excluded by my comments in May.
Oh, and because it deserves to be said: I detest T/E/R/FS, Gold Stars aren’t real, I think Bi/Pan/Trans/Queer women & nonbinary people are all wonderful, and gate-keeping personal identities is never cool.
I hope this clears things up for anyone who was unsure where I stand now on those matters. And if you’re a lesbian who believes butch/femme are exclusive to us, please consider what I’ve said and talk to bi people (especially older bi people who have been identifying as butch/femme since before you were born)
Love, Dres
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think imma butch bi dyke. if ur fine with sharing, what were your experiences with dykehood as a bi woman? i honestly feel really nervous but contented w dyke as a whole, i dont wanna be considered lesphobic or whatever :(
well im going to be 100% transparent with you that regardless of your intentions you will be called a lesbophobe by some people, the nature of tumblr is to paint whoever you disagree with as your oppressor and a monster and you just have to deal with that.
in irl spaces it matters significantly less and nobody (at least in my experience) will question your choices. it helped me a lot because i have a lot of irl friends that are bi or lesbian or trans so everyone is pretty understanding and not quite so “if you say something i disagree with you are cancelled forever and i will make sure i convince everyone that you’re a terf” which has happened to me over dyke discourse with online tumblr “friends” despite me obviously not being a terf, given that im trans and my gf is a trans woman.
but on to the point, i have reblogged a ton of cited essays and resources on bi women’s history in lesbian spaces, our impact on those spaces, our historical right on butch/femme/dyke and our current right and usage of butch/femme/dyke so if that kind of proof reassures you i definitely recommend looking through my blog. tumblr search feature is super awful so i’m sorry it’s not more accessible but you should be able to search for key terms and find it.
my personal experience with dykehood comes largely from comphet, living in racist christian south, and some homophobic experiences with past girlfriends. ive always known i’ve liked girls and ive spent a long LONG time flip flopping between lesbian and bi, and lo and behold my lived reality and the way people treat me when im with a girl literally does not change at all. that leaves me to believe that it doesn’t matter. whether i personally ID as bi or lesbian does not matter because my experiences won’t change. im still in a loving committed relationship with a girl and am visibly gay. ergo im a dyke. i won’t be ashamed about it.
*and yes i am aware the dictionary definition of dyke as written by cishets says that it means lesbian. but gay marriage was also banned in the united states. does that mean that two bi women, who aren’t techincally gay men or lesbians, could marry? no stop being fucking stupid anti-wlw language has always revolved around lesbians that doesn’t mean bi women were just unfortunately caught in the cross fire. the sacred lesbian only experience doesn’t exist, unless its specifically “i identify as a lesbian”. all wlw are subject to comphet, corrective r*pe (though i may agree that it has different connotations among lesbians, i can personally say lesbians are not the only ones targeted for being “cured” of their attraction to women, and r*pe CERTAINLY does not feel better just because you hypothetically could like a man lmao get your fucking heads out of your asses), prejudice, feeling predatory, loving women, being gnc, having an estranged parent relationship, not feeling really like a true woman, confliction with gender roles, not loving men or wanting to be with men, having trauma, facing misogyny and homophobia, etc etc. literally name something and i will make a counter argument for it, because me or a bi woman i know has lived it.
wlw have been going through this shit together since the dawn of time. and radical feminism and political lesbianism warped us. a lot of these arguments about bi women being available to men are misogynistic and extremely biphobic and literally ACTUAL terf rhetoric. terfs, especially terfs that are wlw, have something to gain from painting lesbians as this group that is being set in on all sides by men (and trans women), and that bi women are using their privilege by being close to men to push lesbians down, and are class traitors.
tldr; people will hate you no matter what you do. bi women helped build the lesbian community before radical feminism, terfs, and political lesbianism drove bi women out of the lesbian community. we have much of a right to our terms as any other wlw and its ahistorical to say we don’t. also life is short if calling yourself a dyke connects you to your love of women nobody can tell you otherwise.
#rape#biphobia#homophobia#misogyny#i kinda went off lol#im just gonna copy paste this next time someone wants to say anything to me on this site
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Remembering the Lesbians in Lesbian/Gay Liberation
Remembering the Lesbians in Lesbian/Gay Liberation
By Ann Menasche
Under patriarchy, lesbians are not supposed to exist. Women - "normal" women at least - are supposed to need men to be complete, for love, for sex, for economic survival, for family, for legitimacy. In such a world, there is no place for lesbians; if a few manage to exist, they are seen as freaks or pariahs. Not surprising that we rarely appear in history or when we are named at all, we are portrayed as lonely spinsters pining after some man. (Remember the lies told about 19th century poet Emily Dickenson, who had a lifelong passionate relationship with her sister-in-law.)
In the mid-to-late 20th century, ideas of traditional womanhood began to be challenged as women as a sex gained increased independence. By the height of the Second Wave of feminism in the late 60s and 70s, lesbians had begun to emerge from the shadows and establish themselves among the leadership of the newly emerged Feminist and Lesbian and Gay Liberation Movements. And as the synergy of Lesbian/Gay Liberation and Radical Feminism freed more women to be able to pursue a lesbian life, a vibrant culture of Lesbian Feminism emerged. That culture produced socially conscious music, poetry, books, publishing houses, newspapers, feminist theatre, coffee houses, and festivals run by and for women that inspired and sustained us and helped fuel the political activism of the time. And in this environment we began to rediscover the lesbians that came before us. We no longer felt so alone.
But times have changed again and lesbians are being rendered invisible once more. Even the contributions lesbians made to the Movement for Lesbian and Gay Liberation are being forgotten. Many factors have contributed to this disappearing of lesbians from history, from our public consciousness, and often from ourselves and each other. While lesbians have won some mainstream acceptance through marriage equality, the accumulated losses have begun to be greater than the gains. Hard economic times, a conservative political climate, the growth and increased power of the Christian fundamentalist Right and a growing backlash against feminism have conspired to make lesbian existence harder once more. Independent lesbian culture has been destroyed. Even the lesbian bars that, despite their flaws, provided a place to meet and find community with other lesbians are now gone. In their place is a sense of utter isolation and despair among many lesbians. And there is often no place to turn for support except perhaps online forums.
Moreover, though the illusion that we've already won our rights is widespread, the reality is quite different. Lesbians in the United States can still lose their jobs, be disowned by their parents, lose custody of their children, and be raped or murdered for loving other women. Anti-lesbian prejudice is everywhere.
One of the most destructive influences on lesbians, which is erasing us from history and undermining the possibility of lesbian existence in the present, is gender identity ideology. As this ideology has become increasingly predominant, overwhelming our lesbian/gay communities and incorporating itself into law and culture, lesbians have felt ourselves surrounded on all sides. We are being pressured and guilt-tripped on the one hand to accept men calling themselves women into our communities and our bedrooms. At the same time, rebellious young girls with same-sex feelings, and lesbian adults are being convinced in growing numbers they are really "men" and are being coerced or swayed into "transitioning." As women’s liberation no longer appears to be a realistic goal, some of this vulnerability to the forces of transgenderism and extreme body modification may be summed up by the phrase “if you can’t beat them, join them.” How else escape the violent heavy hand of misogyny on our bodies and lives but to pass as male?
Without question, Lesbians have become extremely marginalized within the modern LGBTQ+ "alphabet soup" - the corporatized stepchild of the Lesbian and Gay Liberation Movement. LGBT centers in the name of trans-inclusion, refuse to provide space for lesbians to even meet together outside of the presence of males. We are not welcome at Pride and even the Dyke March has been taken from us by “lesbians” with male genitalia and their supporters. And as lesbians have been virtually disappeared, so has the role we played in the struggles that came before us been disappeared as well.
Our lesbian foremothers are once again gone from the history books, or are posthumously "transitioned," described as "queer," or treated merely as a footnote. But lesbians fueled the Lesbian and Gay Liberation Movement from its start. It would not have happened without us. And it is time to give credit where credit is due.
The Stonewall Rebellion on June 28, 1969 was not led by individuals identifying as transgender. Transgenderism barely existed at that time even as a concept. What existed was large numbers of lesbians and gay men, some of whom cross dressed or dressed in drag, but did not thereby deny either their sex or their homosexuality. Drag queens and butch lesbians were among those who found community at the Stonewall Inn in New York, a bar owned and operated by the mafia but one of the few places that same sex couples could dance together. Police raids were commonplace but that historic night as police dragged patrons out of the bar and beat them, one butch lesbian, Storme DeLaverie, decided she had had enough. When a police officer shoved her and called her a "faggot", she punched him in the face. Four officers assaulted her and one hit her on the head with a billy club. Bleeding from the head, and dragged toward the police van, she yelled "Why don't you guys do something?" The rebellion was on and lasted six nights. Lesbian and Gay Liberation was born.
Martha Shelley, a lesbian with strong left-wing politics, had passed by the Stonewall on the fateful night but thought she was seeing an anti-war protest. She had no idea that the people throwing rocks at the cops were gay. When she realized what she had missed, she contacted the Daughters of Bilitis and the Mattichine Society and made a proposal for them to jointly sponsor a protest march. On July 27, 1969, 200 lesbians and gays marched in Greenwich Village, in what was to become the world’s first Gay Pride Parade. The organizing committee formed itself into the Gay Liberation Front, a revolutionary group that demanded not assimilation but a complete overhaul of the patriarchal, racist, imperialist system. A new movement was launched, initiated by a lesbian.
Almost a decade later in 1978 in San Francisco another lesbian was the central leader in the successful movement to defend Lesbian and Gay Rights then under attack. This was the struggle against the attempt by Christian fundamentalists to pass the Briggs Initiative, a proposition that would have banned gay teachers and all supporters of Lesbian/Gay Rights in the schools. Though everyone knows about Harvey Milk, many giving him credit for the defeat of the Briggs Initiative, it was actually Nancy Elnor, a lesbian-feminist and socialist, someone virtually no one has heard of, who was far more responsible for that victory. I knew Nancy personally and worked together with her in the Bay Area Coalition against the Briggs Initiative. We were on and off again lovers, our personal interaction often stormy, but my admiration for her never waned.
Nancy worked long hours, doing amazing grassroots organizing work always accompanied by her German Shepherd "Bianca" and put together a mass movement that brought out tens of thousands into the streets against Briggs. She brought in organized labor and every progressive organization in San Francisco to join the cause, and chaired packed meetings of activists. The Coalition under her leadership, organized a televised debate between Milk and Sally Gearhart on the one side and Briggs and one of his cohorts on the other. A thousand people watched the debate on a big screen in a local high school auditorium. Nancy's in-the-streets movement building done through distributing thousands of flyers, making hundreds of phone calls, and attending dozens of meetings (there was no Internet) set an example for the whole state, helped change the political climate, and put us on the path to victory. Nancy died young but I'll never forget her.
As many lesbians celebrate Pride with varying degrees of ambivalence or else consciously ignore the festivities as no longer speaking to us, it is important to remember and celebrate the heroic leadership of our lesbian foremothers who changed history. If we did it once, we can do it again.
Read the full article
#BayAreaCoalition#BriggsInitiative#Christianfundamentalists#DaughtersofBilitis#DykeMarch#GayLiberationFront#GayPrideParade#GreenwichVillage#HarveyMilk#Lesbian/GayLiberation#MarthaShelley#MattichineSociety#NancyElnor#radicalfeminism#SallyGearhart#StonewallInn#StonewallRebellion#StormeDeLaverie#transgenderism
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Hi sorry I’m new to the community and I was wondering what exactly non-binary people entails and how can I support them more?
Hi! Thanks for asking.
“Nonbinary” in its broadest sense is about anyone with a gender identity that falls outside of the binary - ie anyone who does not identify 100% as a woman (including trans women) or as a man (including trans men). There are infinite possibilities within the realm of being nonbinary, it is not really a third gender in and of itself, but some people (such as myself) do use it as their gender identity label. Others prefer terms which are more specific to their experience such as demigirl/demiboy (which is how some people describe an alignment to a certain gender without ID’ing as fully that gender), genderfluid (the experience of shifting between genders over time, binary or otherwise), genderqueer (not a man/male or a woman/female), or agender (having no gender at all).
It can be hard to know how to support nonbinary people being that we’re such an eclectic bunch, but here are some tips:
Respect pronouns: Many (but not all) nonbinary people use pronouns such as they/them. The level of importance of these pronouns differs between nonbinary people - for example, I use they/them but I also don’t mind she/her pronouns, which is helpful bc I’m afab and fairly feminine presenting so I get it a lot, but I have a friend who finds it deeply uncomfortable to be gendered, particularly with she/her pronouns which reflect their assigned gender and which they can even find triggering. On the other hand not all nonbinary people use they/them so if someone tells you otherwise, respect that too!
Respect self-identification: Gender is a mess and it’s really hard to be ‘sure’ of anything. People are often skeptical of nonbinary people because of this, and in my experience as an afab person, can take it to mean that you don’t understand that women can do ‘masculine’ things or other gender-role-based things. But gender is not as simple as gender roles and the best we have to go on is what people identify themselves as. Trust what people say they are and support them. I know it’s hard with people out there being all “my gender is helicopter” and that bullshit, but I promise it’s harder on actual nonbinary people to have people out there mocking us like that.
Respect the complexity of our experiences: As I said above, nonbinary is not just one thing. Some of us ID as trans, some don’t. Some of us experience an alignment of sorts to a binary gender and some don’t. Some undergo social and medical transitions, some don’t. Nonbinary is one identity but it is also thousands so don’t assume you know one person’s relationship with gender from another. This point also applies to sexuality. It is really hard to describe your sexuality when many sexuality terms, representations and conceptualisations are based on the binary, particularly when it comes to hetero- and homosexual identities. A lot of us, again including myself, feel a bit stuck between labels and it’s not always as simple as saying we’re all pan, or something like that. Personally I would use gay or queer to describe myself, and sometimes lesbian, as I came out about my sexuality before my gender and have a bit of a relationship with the lesbian identity. It’s complex, and we don’t really have a history of communal language or terminology to draw upon such as butch/femme to describe our experiences. Work with us and be supportive as we navigate our lives, relationships and labels.
Gender NEUTRAL is not necessarily the same as EQUAL: This goes back to something I mentioned above about how sometimes nonbinary people are discredited by people who generally mean well such as people who think progressively about gender roles. It is common for people to criticise particularly afab nonbinary people by saying that “anyone can do anything! women can do those things, why do you have to be that other gender?”. Similarly, some literature or language is increasingly using things like she/her pronouns for examples when he/him would historically be the default (even sometimes for god(s)!) or phrases such as “he or she”. THEY people. Just use THEY. or PEOPLE / guests / etc rather than “ladies and gentlemen”. That kind of stuff. It’s quite easy in most cases to make language more inclusive, and I’m really glad that people are trying to be more progressive, but it would be super cool to be included in this progressiveness early rather than have to tack ourselves on all the time.
I’m sure there are more, but I hope that helps! I invite anyone reading this to ask me questions any time and I will do my best
Thanks again for the ask!
Clara
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hi!
what do you think about old words like FtM and MtF? (and I guess FtX, MtX, ItX, ItF, ItM)
it would be cool if young trans people share their thoughts too!
are they still comfortable for someone?
idk I just realized it's less dysphoric than AGAB form.
AGAB sounds like it's forever with you, meanwhile XtX sounds like escaping/transitioning from "not you" to "you"
of course it also sounds like if person "was" female (FtM) or male (MtF), which it not true
I personally just found out recently I'm okay with ?tX lol
hello, thanks for asking!
FTM and MTF aren't very old terms, they are still widely used and in fact the primary subreddit for trans men, transmascs and other masc aligned trans folk is r/FTM. i noticed you said it sounds like the person "was" female if FTM or "was" male as MTF, which is not what the terms mean, and also, some trans people do identify as having been female before transitioning to male or male before transitioning to male. if you read the interviews contained within To Survive on This Shore you will read the stories of a lot of trans people who did in fact love their lives as the other gender before they transitioned. while a lot of people do not like that rhetoric, some do, and it's not fair to try to erase their experiences for the sake of 'inclusive language'. people can define these terms or not use them as they please
FTM and MTF are not offensive, bad, or outdated terms in any way shape or form.
keep in mind that this line of thinking is a fundamental misunderstanding of what FTM and MTF actually mean. the the "F" in FTM refers to that person's biological sex marker- as in, you are changing your biological sex in some way to go from what was assigned/viewed as F to M. the opposite is true for MTF.
FTM is not a term that's just for trans men and MTF is not just for trans women. these terms refer to the changing of your biological sex, so an FTM person could be anything from a trans man to an FTM identifying transsexual butch lesbian. MTF people can be trans women or drag queens who take hormones and get surgeries. it can be a wide range of things, and while i can see it being uncomfortable for some, in others, they are loved and appreciated terms with a lot of history and are inclusive. i am not AFAB in the sense that i have a 100% "biologically female body" and I still identify with the term FTM because I find the X/I terms clunky. i have been using FTM for a decade now, i'm not going to trash it just because of a misinterpretation of what it means
also AGAB just literally refers to the gender you were assigned at birth. it's not really "permanent" it's a snap decision that was made when you were underdeveloped as a newborn baby. biological sex can be altered freely at will. to be brutally honest with you anon, i actually really detest the logic that the XtY labels are "escaping" something "to become your true self" for every trans person- i really would not apply this logic to anyone but yourself. this sounds very much like a you thing and not something that suits the entire trans community and this could be very offensive to some trans folk. many FTM butches are still women. many FTM drag queens are still men. p
i am very glad to hear you are okay with that term! I personally find the ?/X terms clunky so i don't use them for myself. i am FtMtF or FtMF. i'm glad it you found what works for you. I'm not a fan of implying FTM and MTF are bad or outdated, and i think it's exhausting to try to cycle them out of the common vernacular or do a big reach and assume it means something that it doesn't. it's a term that people can use if they want to, but trans men are under no obligation to use FTM and trans women are under no obligation to use MTF. they're terms you can use if they find they suit you, and folks who are made happy by them deserve to get to keep terms that weren't offensive to begin with
hope this makes sense, take care
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Response to @bigmeangatekeeper’s ‘Why I’m Exclusionist’ Page
So recently I came across by far one of the most bigoted exclusionists I’ve seen in a while, that being @bigmeangatekeeper. Normally I block and ignore these sorts of people but given the exceedingly harmful and frankly disgusting rhetoric espoused on this person’s blog, I felt it was necessary to make a formal response, even if the person in question isn’t going to listen to reason or care.
I’m going to be mentioning @herefortheace and @justaphobethings in this post for their reference, as the arguments presented here are common exclusionist rhetorics and also to share my resources with more inclusionist blogs.
DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to be a ‘callout’, not is it intended to call upon my followers/anyone to attack this blog. This is merely a response to tired old exclusionist rhetoric by an asexual who is sick of people legitimately trying to act like their gross views haven’t been time and time disproven. I also won’t be addressing this blog’s status as a truscum as that isn’t relevant to this post.
TW FOR RAPE/SEXUAL ASSAULT DISCUSSION AND RAPE APOLOGISM.
PAGE LINK
First thing’s first. While I do not automatically exclude LGBT aces, I exclude cishet aces AND homo/transphobic or homo/transphobia apologist aces. It’s not just about the cishets. It’s about so much more.
As stated hundreds of times before, there definitely are homophobic, biphobic, transphobic, sexist, and racist asexuals. There are also apologists for these asexuals. Absolutely no one is arguing that these are problematic people. However, exclusionists like to pretend that the occasional ‘bad’ asexual is somehow a representative of the entire community, to which I respond ‘how then do you feel about TERF lesbians or biphobic gay men?’ Because if a few bad members of a sexuality are enough to warrant that entire community being removed from the LGBT community as a whole, then this rhetoric should be applied to every single sexual orientation or gender identity. Yet, asexuals and aromantics get singled out for this time and time again. It’s almost like exclusionists are unwilling to admit that they just want to remove asexuals as a whole and are only grasping for excuses so much that they will use the occasional problematic ace as a gotcha to push forward their ideologies. It’s funny because half the time what exclusionists define as ‘homophobic asexuals’ are often either blatantly obvious trolls or minors simply making jokes or having fun with their identity.
Also, thank you for including SOME aces! We appreciate you soooo much for driving a wall between our community! /s
The standard of “SGA and trans” as requirement for entry to the LGBTQ community is used nowhere outside of aphobic tumblr, and it seems crafted specifically for the purpose of excluding aces, aros, NBs, intersex people, and others not deemed “gay enough”.
There are also many “SGA and trans” aces who are against the gatekeeping and feel that they are hated by these aphobes.
You’re not protecting me by being an ace/aro exclusionist.
What we hear when you say “I only support SGA Asexuals/Aromantics”
my favourite thing is when aphobes try to tell me that their aphobia doesn’t apply to me / affect me because “[i’m] queer for other reasons”
okay, you wanna know why I’m for including all aces in the LGBT+ community?
Why your acephobia and arophobia is really just bullshit
it really annoys me when I see Discoursers say they support LGBT+ aces, just not cishet ones.
when you say “i accept sga and trans aces and aros but not cishet aces/aros because they’re straight”
Suffering! Suffering?
when people ‘accept’ sga/mga/non-cis aces and aros, but not others, what it actually means is they accept the part of you that isn’t directly tied to your asexuality/aromanticism
if ur gonna fuckin claim those four letters cover them & the whole damn community, they sure as fuck can cover aces as well
“Ace discourse” is really a Tumblr-only thing
I’m a lesbian ace and I’ve never felt more worthless and disgusting than this ace discourse
The reason even trans and bi/gay/pan/etc asexuals get defensive when you talk about cishet aces/aros not being part of the LGBT+ community is because you’re erasing a part of our identity??
If you talk shit about aces/aros with the disclaimer “cishet” it still affects all aces. Saying “notably cishet aces should all go die” still makes all ace/aro people feel like they are being called out.
Your “discourse” is harmful to all asexuals. And PS, your rhetoric is literally indistinguishable from TWERF rhetoric.
It’s about the blatant homophobia, transphobia, and serophobia in the ace community.
Again, this may exist in some members of the community, but that does not magically erase the status of the community as being LGBT. If it did, TERFs lesbians would have caused the lesbian community to be no longer considered LGBT.
It’s about there being no consistent definition of asexuality, thus allowing literally anyone regardless of relationship status, libido, etc to claim the ace label, and thereby try to shoulder their way into the LGBT community.
There is a consistent definition of asexuality. It’s ‘a lack of sexual attraction’. Libido, relationship status, etc, do not have any role in the asexual label. This has been the definition of asexuality for years. Looking up ‘asexuality’ on Google literally explains this:
I found these in one quick search. What’s your excuse?
The reason there appears to be ‘no consistent definition’ is the fault of non-asexuals and exclusionists pushing their own definitions of what asexuality is so that they can later pretend that its the asexuals who are changing the definition. The idea that asexuals never have sex was a misconstruing of the description of sex-repulsed asexuals. The idea that asexuals don’t have a libido also came from this. Asexuals can and do masturbate (for pleasure or stress relief), have sex (for pleasure or to have children), etc. These are not related to the definition of asexuality.
Additionally, if the fact that there isn’t a consistent definition of asexuality bothers you, then why not address how bisexuals and pansexuals don’t always have a consistent definition for their sexuality either? Some bisexuals claim the bi label is only for men and women, some say it includes nonbinary people, some say bisexuality is a transphobic label compared to pansexuality, etc, etc.
It’s about asexuals telling traumatised people/mentally ill people/dysphoric people/autistic people/CHILDREN that they’re ace rather then encouraging them to consider other reasons why they might feel sex repulsed.
Telling an individual ‘have you considered you may be asexual’ is not the same that saying ‘you are asexual, no arguments, you just are’. A person suggesting a label is not forcing anyone to co-opt that label. In addition, sexualities are fluid. I know many people who identified as ace at a younger age and then identified differently at an older age. I know many people who are the reverse. Are there individuals who identified incorrectly as ace at one age and feel upset or angry about it? Absolutely. But that is not the fault of any asexual who suggested the label. And, again, sex repulsion is not the requirement for being asexual.
It’s about asexuals not understanding that asexuality is not comparable to other sexualities bc it’s about how you feel attraction instead of who you feel attraction to
“Human sexuality is the way people experience and express themselves sexually. This involves biological, erotic, physical, emotional, social, or spiritual feelings and behaviors. Because it is a broad term, which has varied over time, it lacks a precise definition.” From Wikipedia
A Definition of Sexuality
Sexuality is no longer just about ‘who’ you experience attraction to.
It’s about asexuals hypersexualising all other sexualities (most particularly gay people) and making us out to be fucking sex craved deviants
Citation fucking needed. Also, yet again, a few asexuals doing this (not that I have ever seen any aside from one extremely obvious troll doing this) is not somehow a representation of the entire community.
It’s about asexuals pushing the toxic and harmful split attraction model even though it’s been shown time and time again to allow people to explain away their internalised homophobia/biphobia, and encouraging microlabelling that just confuses people more and causes divisiveness in the community
What we call the split-attraction model was first described by Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, a gay advocate from the 1800s, as “disjunctive uranodioning”. (source) (credit to this post)
There is absolutely no evidence aside from exclusionist rhetoric to uphold the idea that the SAM is homophobic or toxic. Additionally the SAM is used by non-ace and non-aro people regularly - I am familiar with many people who make that distinction in their romantic and sexual orientations, such as one friend who is pansexual but heteroromantic (in that she will have sex with all genders but prefers to romantically date men). It seems your bigger issue is the existence of microlabelling, which while that is a debatable problem in this community, at the end of the day it really isn’t any of your business. The only real source of divisiveness in this community is gatekeepers like you.
It’s about asexuals erasing gay history and literally just fabricating false stories for asexual representation, usually at the expense of gay people
Citation needed, once again.
Asexuals recorded as “Group X” in the 1948 Kinsey Reports
What is asexual history? The 19th and 20th century
From The Westminster Review, a political magazine, in 1907; an essay by Helen Fraser called Women’s Suffrage, on how if women got the vote, butch and ace women were gonna dominate the whole thing and screw it up for all the Real Ladies.
The Spinster Movement, and how they were treated as queer
From “Feminism,” by Correa Moylan Walsh, 1917
the “aces/aros were part of the bi community until they very recently chose to split off, so stop telling them that they have never been queer or that they don’t belong in ‘the LGBT community’” masterpost
asexuality existed before David Jay and AVEN
“Where were you when…?” A History of Asexual Inclusion (Part One)
“Where were you when…?” A History of Asexual Inclusion (Part Two)
It’s about asexuals stealing autistic terminology, and creating false axes of oppression that make literally everyone who isn’t ace their oppressors
The ‘actuallyasexual’ tag supposedly being stolen from the ‘actuallyautistic’ tag was never proven to be a legitimate claim. Autistic people have repeatedly come forward saying that this was never the case. Since I am not autistic, however, I won’t press on this particular point. If anyone is autistic and has some information on this, please DM me.
It’s about adult asexuals literally acting like children and using the ‘uwu im a pure ace’ response
Citation needed. I’m sensing a trend here.
Any asexual who partakes in, excuses, or explains away this behaviour in the ace community is dangerous and could easily cause harm to the LGBT community.
Once again - TERF lesbians, transphobic gay man, etc. should also be included under this rhetoric if you’re going to treat asexuals this way, otherwise you’re just being a hypocrite.
Asexuals are not oppressed under homophobia or transphobia. The LGBT community was not built just to combat oppression, because that would mean women and POC would automatically be LGBT, which is absurd. The community was developed specifically so that SGA and non-cis people would have a place to get away from societal homophobia and transphobia, and to push back against legally instituted oppression, like fighting for gay marriage, and to get laws put in place that protect us from hate crimes.
Firstly, SGA (same-gender attraction) is a term that was used and is still used in Mormon conversion therapy, so as one can understand,a lot of people are very uncomfortable being labeled with this description.
Secondly -
“The LGBT community has always been about fighting homophobia and transphobia/we came together to fight homophobia and transphobia”
“Homophobia and Transphobia”: What does the LGBT+ community fight for?
The modern American movement was first known as the “gay community” when cis gay men refused to even accept lesbians, then the “gay and lesbian community”. (Good reading on the subject.)
“After the elation of change following group action in the Stonewall riots in New York, in the late 1970s and the early 1980s, some gays and lesbians became less accepting of bisexual or transgender people. Critics said that transgender people were acting out stereotypes and bisexuals were simply gay men or lesbian women who were afraid to come out and be honest about their identity. Each community has struggled to develop its own identity including whether, and how, to align with other gender and sexuality-based communities, at times excluding other subgroups; these conflicts continue to this day.” (source)
“From about 1988, activists began to use the initialism LGBT in the United States. Not until the 1990s within the movement did gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people gain equal respect.” (ibid)
These are scans of a gay magazine from 1999 showing that 48% of those surveyed did not believe that trans people should be a part of the gay community.
The community’s boundaries have always been in flux
Insisting that LG people have always been accepting of bi and trans people is incredibly revisionist and does a great deal of injustice to those who have been excluded.
While I agree that asexuals go through some discrimination, ‘aphobia’ is not an axis of oppression because it is not institutionalised. The discrimination asexual and aromantic people face is based within rape culture, toxic masculinity, traditionalist values, and misogyny.
You sound like transphobic sexists who claim trans men do not experience transphobia that is specific to trans men (transmisandry) much in the same way that trans women experience transphobia specific to trans women (transmisogyny).
First of all, what do you use as the definition of ‘institutionalized’?
Second, why are you acting like asexuals are seen as some ‘other’ group rather than a part of the LGBT community when institutionalized discrimination is being discussed?
Third, ‘institutionalized discrimination’ was never a requirement to be LGBT. By that logic, a gay man who lives in a country/state where gay marriage is legal, conversion therapy is banned, and who has never experienced any form of anti-LGBT discrimination in his life is straight. That’s an asinine proposition.
For some examples of asexual-specific discrimination -
“My parents keep telling me that I’m something else, and it’s making me doubt my sense of judgement, not just about my sexual identity, but also about everything in general.”
“My family, friends, and co-workers keep referring to me as an inanimate object in a manner that’s clearly meant to humiliate and devastate me. Nothing I say will get them to stop.”
“My parents vocally/bodily forced me to undergo medical examinations, some of them concerning my sexual organs, many of them concerning blood tests and other trauma-centric procedures.”
“My family is intervening with my private life by changing my schedule to include exercise, socialization, friend influences, and whatever they think can ‘change’ me.”
“My friends/co-workers no longer respect my bodily boundaries when I came out to them, because they no longer see me as someone who should be respected. They regularly touch, fondle, grope, and prod me without permission, and/or verbally harass me, and don’t take my objections seriously.”
“My family, friends, and co-workers no longer just harass me, but also anyone I’m currently dating because they view my significant other as pathetic, underserved, or even being abused.”
“My date got irrationally angry and confrontational when I came out to them, in a manner that made me fearful.” (SO many of these.)
“My date immediately lost any respect they had for my boundaries, no longer asked for consent, and {tried to} force themselves upon me.” (A lot of these, too)
“My date tried to verbally circumvent any boundaries and issues I confessed to, and it made me feel like I was in danger.”
“I didn’t come out to my date at first, and when they found out, they radically changed their behavior in an attempt to control and manipulate our new relationship to their benefit.”
“My partner has forcefully and radically changed our long-term relationship after finding out about my asexuality, and I’m now trapped and controlled in a way that I wasn’t before.”
“My partner broke up with me/is fighting with me because of my asexuality, and trying to make it seem like I’m hurting them. It’s made me doubt myself and my ability to trust my own intentions.”
“My partner is slowly changing from what was once supportive of my asexuality, and I’m wondering when I have the right to be worried and when I’d be overreacting. I’m aware of the worst case scenario, but I also worry that I’m being selfish and childish - which are things I’ve been told all throughout my asexual experience.”
“I don’t trust my ability to say either yes or no in sexual situations, and this has extended to my life in general. I don’t feel comfortable in my ability to self-determinate.”
“The lack of authority, definition, and schooling of the concept of asexuality has made me very uncomfortable with what I think I am, and that uncertainty haunts me every waking moment.”
“I think it’s too late/too early to tell if I’m asexual, but the longer I hesitate, the worse my mental health and emotional wellbeing gets. I’m effectively stuck.”
“I see no benefit in coming out, or even identifying as asexual. There’s no positivity, role models, or supportive community for what I consider a big and scary part of my overall identity.”
“I think this was sexual abuse, but I’m wondering if I’m just being selfishand childish.”
“I think I was treated badly by my parents/friends/partner, but I’m wondering if I’m just being selfishand childish.”
“I want to believe that I’m deserving of equal freedom and human respect paid to other, not asexual people, but people tell me I’m being selfishand childish.”
“No one encourages this part of me. And that makes me feel forgotten and abandoned in general.”
Dr Gordon Hodson wrote this about his 2012 study:
In a recent investigation (MacInnis & Hodson, in press) we uncovered strikingly strong bias against asexuals in both university and community samples. Relative to heterosexuals, and even relative to homosexuals and bisexuals, heterosexuals: (a) expressed more negative attitudes toward asexuals (i.e., prejudice); (b) desired less contact with asexuals; and © were less willing to rent an apartment to (or hire) an asexual applicant (i.e., discrimination). Moreover, of all the sexual minority groups studied, asexuals were the most dehumanized (i.e., represented as “less human”). Intriguingly, heterosexuals dehumanized asexuals in two ways. Given their lack of sexual interest, widely considered a universal interest, it might not surprise you to learn that asexuals were characterized as “machine-like” (i.e., mechanistically dehumanized). But, oddly enough, asexuals were also seen as “animal-like” (i.e., animalistically dehumanized). Yes, asexuals were seen as relatively cold and emotionless and unrestrained, impulsive, and less sophisticated.
When you repeatedly observe such findings it grabs your attention as a prejudice researcher. But let’s go back a minute and consider those discrimination effects. Really? You’d not rent an apartment to an asexual man, or hire an asexual woman? Even if you relied on stereotypes alone, presumably such people would make ideal tenants and employees. We pondered whether this bias actually represents bias against single people, a recently uncovered and very real bias in its own right (see Psychology Today column by Bella DePaulo). But our statistical analyses ruled out this this possibility. So what’s going on here?
If you’ve been following my column, you’ll recall that I wrote a recent article on what I called the “Bigotry Bigot-Tree” – what psychologists refer to as generalized prejudice. Specifically, those disliking one social group (e.g., women) also tend to dislike other social groups (e.g., homosexuals; Asians). In our recent paper (MacInnis & Hodson, in press), we found that those who disliked homosexuals also disliked bisexuals and asexuals. In other words, these prejudices are correlated. Heterosexuals who dislike one sexual minority, therefore, also dislike other sexual minorities, even though some of these groups are characterized by their sexual interest and activity and others by their lack of sexual interest and activity.
This anti-asexual bias, at its core, seems to boil down to what Herek (2010) refers to as the “differences as deficit” model of sexual orientation. By deviating from the typical, average, or normal sexual interests, sexual minorities are considered substandard and thus easy targets for disdain and prejudice. Contrary to conventional folk wisdom, prejudice against sexual minorities may not therefore have much to do with sexual activity at all. There is even evidence, for instance, that religious fundamentalists are prejudiced against homosexuals even when they are celibate (Fulton et al., 1999). Together, such findings point to a bias against “others”, especially different others, who are seen as substandard and deficient (and literally “less human”). “Group X” is targeted for its lack of sexual interest even more than homosexuals and bisexuals are targeted for their same-sex interests.
From news coverage of a recently published study (2016):
What should the average person take away from your study?
Since I first became interested in the issue, I have come to conclude that U.S. society is both “sex negative” and “sex positive.” In other words, there is stigma and marginalization that can come both from being “too sexual” and from being “not sexual enough.” In a theoretical paper, I argued that sexuality may be compulsory in contemporary U.S. society. In other words, our society assumes that (almost) everyone is, at their core, “sexual” and there exists a great deal of social pressure to experience sexual desire, engage in sexual activities, and adopt a sexual identity. At the same time, various types of “non-sexuality” (such as a lack of sexual desire or activity) are stigmatized.
For this particular study, I identified thirty individuals who identified as asexual and asked them first, if they had experienced stigma or marginalization as a result of their asexuality, and, second how they challenged this stigma or marginalization. I found that my interviewees had experienced the following forms of marginalization: pathologization (i.e. people calling them sick), social isolation, unwanted sex and relationship conflict, and the denial of epistemic authority (i.e. people not believing that they didn’t experience sexual attraction). I also found that my interviews resisted stigma and marginalization in five ways: describing asexuality as simply a different (but not inherently worse) form of sexuality; deemphasizing the importance of sexuality in human life; developing new types of nonsexual relationships; coming to see asexuality as a sexual orientation or identity; and engaging in community building and outreach.
I hope that average people would take away from this study the idea that some people can lead fulfilling lives without experiencing sexual attraction but can experience distress if others try to invalidate their identities.
Some of the social isolation we aspecs experience comes from religious communities. Indeed, the popular myth that religious people revere aspecs is very much NOT TRUE. For example, read “Myth 8″ from the VISION Catholic Religious Vocation Guide:
MYTH 8: Religious are asexual
Question: What do you call a person who is asexual?
Answer: Not a person. Asexual people do not exist.Sexuality is a gift from God and thus a fundamental part of our human identity. Those who repress their sexuality are not living as God created them to be: fully alive and well. As such, they’re most likely unhappy.
All people are called by God to live chastely, meaning being respectful of the gift of their sexuality. Religious men and women vow celibate chastity, which means they live out their sexuality without engaging in sexual behavior. A vow of chastity does not mean one represses his manhood or her womanhood. Sexuality and the act of sex are two very different things. While people in religious life abstain from the act of sex, they do not become asexual beings, but rather need to be in touch with what it means to be a man or a woman. A vow of chastity also does not mean one will not have close, loving relationships with women and men. In fact, such relationships are a sign of living the vow in a healthy way. Living a religious vow of chastity is not always easy, but it can be a very beautiful expression of love for God and others.
Religious women and men aren’t oddities; they mirror the rest of the church they serve: there are introverts and extroverts, tall and short, old and young, straight and gay, obese and skinny, crass and pious, humorous and serious, and everything in between. They attempt to live the same primary vocation as all other Christians do: proclaiming and living the gospel. However, religious do this as members of an order that serve the church and world in a particular way. Like marriage and the single life, religious life can be wonderful, fulfilling, exciting, and, yes, normal. Yet, it also can be countercultural and positively challenging. It’s that for us and many others.
If you thought religious life was outdated, dysfunctional, or dead, we hope you can now look beyond the stereotypes and see the gift it is to the church and world.
NOTE: YOU CAN BE A GAY CATHOLIC PERSON BUT NOT ASEXUAL, BC ASEXUALITY DOESN’T EXIST (yet somehow we’re also “most likely unhappy” and “oddities”). I sincerely hope and believe that not all religions characterize us aspecs this way. But here are some personal accounts I found on a reddit site answering the question “Do any religions have a negative stance toward asexuals?”:
Please note that the Christian pastor in the last example was fearful (or something?) that an asexual was helping to lead a youth group and kicked them out of the church as a result.
(Not to mention that there is now a published dissertation with a whole chapter dedicated to understanding why a-spec people have been erased from history and virtually invisible up until recently, which is a very real issue in this debate that cannot be ignored).
This argument is as tired as the rest of the ones you’re putting out. And since i know you’re just going to ignore this with some backhanded commentary -
If we give primary sources based on lived experiences (which is the basis of qualitative research, which founded so much of the fields of psychology, sociology, anthropology, and more, and is still used today as a very common research practice), such evidence is dismissed because it’s not academic or in a news publication. Never mind that this practice of citing tumblr blogs for personal experiences is similar in practice (if not as rigorous) as netnographic research (a practice developed by Rob Kozinets, whose book on it has close to 1500 google scholar citations, and whose seminal article on it has over 2000).
If we give articles from press outlets, they are dismissed as commercial and therefore not acceptable. (I could find a lot more of this, but look, it’s happened a lot and not main point here).
If we give academic citations, such as the study that was published a few years ago (what I’ve seen referred to as’ the Group X study’ by discoursers), they are dismissed (read, not ‘debunked’ because that is a different thing) because popular press such as psychologytoday.com dared to cover the story, or because they don’t believe the need for such study exists, and because someone hadn’t read the original research so felt free to critique it’s methods (????). Slightly more legitimately, I’ve seen it dismissed based on the use of convenience samples (though I can’t find the link), but it’s worth pointing out that the actual research also used a sample drawn from the general public. And if you’re dismissing a study based on the use of a convenience sample, you can also throw out about 90% of academic research done in psychology and related fields in the past 40 years. Almost all research uses convenience sampling, and this study actually went beyond that anyway.
(For the record, that study also goes a long way to explain why intra-community aphobia exists, if you read the full article, and finds that the more biased people are also more right-wing authoritarian and endorse social-dominance orientation, basically meaning they “endorse dominance and inter-group hierarchies”).
Source with more information
Literally every argument for ace oppression, like corrective rape for example, is not ace exclusive. On the other hand, gay and trans people face specific pointed prosecution for being non-cis or SGA.
“The term ‘corrective rape’ was coined by South African lesbians and should only be used by lesbians”
No one means any disrespect to lesbians or other victims of corrective rape, but this is not a correct statement.
“We’ll Show You You’re a Woman” describes the violence directed towards LGBT people in South Africa, stating, “Negative public attitudes towards homosexuality go hand in hand with a broader pattern of discrimination, violence, hatred, and extreme prejudice against people known or assumed to be lesbian, gay, and transgender, or those who violate gender and sexual norms in appearance or conduct (such as women playing soccer, dressing in a masculine manner, and refusing to date men).” It goes on to say, “Much of the recent media coverage of violence against lesbians and transgender men has been characterized by a focus on “corrective rape,” a phenomenon in which men rape people they presume or know to be lesbians in order to “convert” them to heterosexuality.”
The Wikipedia article on corrective rape in South Africa states that, “A study conducted by OUT LGBT Well-being and the University of South Africa Centre for Applied Psychology (UCAP) showed that “the percentage of black gay men who said they have experienced corrective rape matched that of the black lesbians who partook in the study”.”
It is not only lesbians, but also bisexual women, transgender men, gay men, and gender non-conforming people in South Africa who experience corrective rape. This is not in any way meant to minimize the horror of the epidemic or shift attention away from lesbians, but other victims, including asexuals, deserve attention as well. Do not silence or speak over victims of rape by policing their language.
And regarding ace-specific discrimination, I provided a wall of it, if you’d like to scroll up and read it again.
I’ve been beaten bloody while called a fag and a tranny and left for dead. I’ve had a guy rape me while aggressively misgendering me and telling me what a freak cuntboy I was. Those attacks were specifically because I’m trans and gay. Ace people are attacked because they won’t have sex, not because they’re ace. It’s just good old fashioned rape, there’s no hate crime element I guarantee it.
I’m very sorry that happened to you.
I was repeatedly molested by my first boyfriend because he told me that “wouldn’t be ace anymore when he was done with me”. I’ve been punched, thrown to the ground, and had my nose broken because I wore an asexual flag pin on my backpack, with people calling me a disgusting queer. My girlfriend of five years, the person I intended to marry, cheated on me with a mutual friend because I was asexual and ‘didn’t validate her body’. And, as I already shown, my experiences are commonplace for asexuals. Your trauma, as horrible as it is, does not give you any right to say that an asexual who is raped and told “I’ll fix you” is not ‘good old fashioned rape’.
Please read this and tell me about how there’s no hate crime element to it:
“‘I just want to help you,’ he called out to me as I walked away from his car,” she explained. “He was basically saying that I was somehow broken and that he could repair me with his tongue and, theoretically, with his penis. It was totally frustrating and quite scary.”
Sexual harassment and violence, including so-called “corrective” rape, is disturbingly common in the ace community, says Decker, who has received death threats and has been told by several online commenters that she just needs a “good raping.”
“When people hear that you’re asexual, some take that as a challenge,” said Decker, who is currently working on a book about asexuality. “We are perceived as not being fully human because sexual attraction and sexual relationships are seen as something alive, healthy people do. They think that you really want sex but just don’t know it yet. For people who perform corrective rape, they believe that they’re just waking us up and that we’ll thank them for it later.”
“There is a real fear even among the asexual community that people who identify as anything other than heterosexual will be harassed and assaulted,” wrote “Angela,” a self-identified aromantic ace. “They have a reason to be upset and a reason to be afraid, it has happened to many people before.”
In response to the post, an anonymous user wrote, “[A]sexuality is not a thing. You are just ugly and no one wanted to date you, so you made up a thing to cuddle your lonely self as you cry into your pillow. Also, I hope you get raped. It has a dual benefit, you’ll get laid finally AND put you into your place as well.”
The comment triggered a firestorm, with some asexuals speaking out and sharing their own experiences involving sexual violence.
Asexuals and ace activists say the conversation about sexual assault in the asexual community is part of the wider societal discussion about rape culture generally and about corrective rape in the queer community specifically. They also say it speaks to a bias and an invisibility that asexuals face in everyday life.
Source
Asexuals and aromantics are notoriously homophobic, transphobic, and serophobic in their arguments. I personally have seen them say things about inclusionists like ‘I hope they get antibiotic resistant gonorrhoea and crabs in the same week’ (actual quote), I’ve been told ‘you probably have aids’ because I’m a gay man, I’ve seen them argue that non-ace people can’t be raped because we constantly want sex and have had my own assaults denied, etc. This wasn’t just one incident, it’s a pattern. Over and over ace people wish violent sexual threats on non-ace people. They call us disgusting. They call us filthy. They call us ‘the oppressive monogays’ and ‘filthy allos’. I’ve had them go so far as to fling homophobic slurs at me, and say we deserved the aids crisis. Sorry, but any group that is totally fine with even some of its members being that actively, unabashedly homophobic has absolutely no place in this community. I wouldn’t let my grandfather who called me a pathetic fag into the community either, no matter how much sex he did or didn’t have.
I like how you say ‘actual quote’ and yet do not provide a single link, screenshot, or even falsified anonymous message as proof of this.
For the 100th time - the behavior of a few asexuals does not represent the entire community, otherwise TERF lesbians, transphobic gay men, biphobic trans people, etc, would mean their entire community are no longer considered LGBT.
Would you like a glimpse at some of the behavior exclusionists that are ‘real LGBT’ bestow on asexuals?
Comparing aces and aros to Trump (and pretending this is funny)
Comparing aces to Pence
Comparing aces to Ronald Reagan (and pretending this is funny)
Comparing aces to a literal slave owner
Making fun of aces not being accepted by their parents and of aces finding this upsetting (making it into a crytyping “joke”)
Making aces feel shitty/shaming them for telling their parents they’re ace because it’s supposedly “unnecessary”
Saying if we tell family about being ace, it’s no wonder if they send us to therapy
Doing their best to sexualize the orientations of aces, in so many cases. The link before these two is also connected to that. They treat our orientations like (graphic) details about “our sex lives”, frequently acting like if we want to talk about them ever we’re gross/creepy
This one is also “nice” re sexualizing aces (one of many examples of ppl also engaging in sex-shaming while they’re at it, saying only one’s partner should know anything about one’s “relationships with sex”. Except this person goes kinda even further)
More sexualization, when I say this freaks me out as a WoC, I’m told this white person gives no fucks and wants me to be miserable
Another person who says the identities of aces but also of aros need to stay between them and their Partners because they’re “TMI” and inherently sex-shaming somehow
Oh yeah did I mention, much the same with sexualizing aros and ppl frequently link our identities to misogyny and to using people while they’re at it
Making light and fun of ace WoC asking to not be sexualized because don’t we know aces have done Bad things and so we deserve it/don’t get to complain
One of many examples of white people who hate aces+aros talking over PoC and trying to erase us from our communities (+usually when we call that shit out they don’t care. This is actually one of the more cordial responses I’ve come across despite the lack of apology lol. [Eta: my wording here was misleading before, they weren’t talking to me - I’d also called them on this but they ignored me. Sorry for the confusion!] Also, I have a tag somewhere with several non-black/white ppl who made Rachel Dolezal comparisons to shit on aces/aros). Another example of talking over us here complete with condescendingly lecturing a PoC about racism
People like this saying outright they hate aces
Saying sex ed shouldn’t teach about asexuality
Outright stating they think being ace/aro gives people privilege (because supposedly aces+aros both benefit from conservatives pushing for abstinence)
Outright invalidating the identities of aces (who don’t have the attitude towards sex they think they should have)
Calling asexuals demons
Outright calling aces and aros a “plague” and saying aces/aros regardless of other identities all need to be kicked out of the LGBT+ community.
Erasing the identities of people who speak out against anti-ace/aro shit to declare them “straight” or “cishet” …or saying that treatment is what they get for being “traitors to their own community”
Ignoring the boundaries of aces/aros who have them blocked and don’t want to be vagued to make fun of them …
…or even to continue sexualizing them after they have made it very clear that shit freaks them out (cheerfully doing this to a WoC)
Someone saying asexuality does not exist and “encourages slut shaming”
Spamming the ace positivity tag with vile hate (ppl have talked a lot about how this harms and endangers especially mentally ill ppl)
“aces are embarassing“ in the positivity tag
Posting nsfw content in the ace positivity tag and being completely unapologetic, apparently using the reasoning that our identities are inherently nsfw anyway (see the “TMI discourse” aka people sexualizing our identities)
Calling aces and aros a “sexuality fandom” while pretending we’re a group full of people with every privilege imaginable, bored of being accepted by everyone and of having no Actual Problems in our lives. This kind of nasty erasure constantly goes on and is a big tactic in this mess tbh
Wanting aces to be “exterminated”. For good measure putting this in the ace positivity tag
This disgusting vile shit that I don’t even know how to sum up but it includes wishing death on someone
Talking about wanting aces/aros dead after somehow misunderstanding(?) a post that was very clearly not about asexuality or aromanticism
Graphically telling aces to die
Specifically telling ace kids to kill themselves
Did I mention that many people in this mess have wished death on aces and aros and that they often put it in positivity tags. Some of the most messed up shit I’ve seen is missing because I didn’t reblog/respond to it at the time or can’t find it right now
And I know anons don’t count as hard “proof” for anything but have the less graphic one of the death/rape threats I got in my inbox for speaking out against anti-ace/aro shit (still kinda eerily detailed though. Not linking the other one because it is extremely graphic)
Comparing aces to a literal white supremacist (in the positivity tag)
Again someone invalidating the identities of aces who don’t have the attitude towards sex they think they should have
Sexualizing aros again, not caring about how it affects particularly aro PoC. And here two other ppl sexualizing and demonizing aros, like in posts further above claiming (non-ace) aros just use people for sex (said on positivity post).
Someone sexualizing aces again and engaging in sex-shaming at the same time, as usual with the claim that literally no one but a partner “needs” to know our orientations
Those Rachel Dolezal comparisons I mentioned made by non-black/white people who want to use antiblackness for what they call “ace discourse”?Yeah here is one white person doing it and here is another, even worse example where a white person goes “this is like if I pulled a Rachel D. and put on blackface and used the n-word…” (paraphrasing here). Here is the latter person utterly dismissing me being upset by their antiblackness (because black ppl’s pain only matters when it’s useful)
[For ppl who don’t know: Rachel Dolezal is a white woman who pretended to be black and built her career on it. White people sure as hell do not get to compare this shit to anything that is not antiblackness and use black people’s pain for their own purposes.]
A white person using antiblackness as a weapon against aces and aros in general (aka “ace tumblr”), acting smug regarding how supposedly we’re all so racist and “get triggered” by black people existing. (I am so tired of white ppl using racism as a cheap “gotcha” against aces and aros - groups which include PoC. And who then ignore or belittle PoC who call them out)
White person randomly informing WoC aces/aros can have white privilege
Again someone claiming ace privilege exists and here another person doing it adding to the post further above, claiming aces/aros have privilege for being ace/aro and that this is the case bc people who don’t have sex are privileged (wrong definition of asexuality… also of aromanticism??… and also no. No.)
What I mentioned about ppl telling us asexuality/aromanticism are not orientations but only ever modifiers? It’s happened a lot but here’s one example. And here’s someone outright saying aro aces don’t have an orientation but only modifiers.
Here’s the same person who said aro aces don’t have an orientation later turning around saying the orientation of aro aces is determined by how they behave and who they have sex with.
Another person putting nsfw shit in the ace positivity tag (link is to nsfw text)
And people try really hard to justify despising aces and aros by pointing to shitty people who share our identities/orientations. Honesty is secondary in this. Here you have someone taking a shitty post from an obvious nasty troll blog to say this is why ppl hate aces, and later when having the troll thing pointed out to them saying they already know. The post got over 3k notes.
“asexual shouldn’t even be a way people identify themselves”, with a second person in the thread agreeing
If you’re interested, some way back I also made a link-less post that is important to me talking about how nasty and harmful the racism and erasure of ace and aro PoC in all this has been
These are not even referring to more recent horrors that the exclusionist community has forced down our throats.
They don’t have a coherent definition of asexuality. Literally there’s no cohesive definition. None. Some of them say it’s people who feel no sexual attraction, some say it’s people who feel no sexual desire, some say you can have and enjoy sex and still be totally valid uwu, some say you can only have sex to please a partner, some say you have to be sex repulsed, the list goes on and fucking on. If we let in a group that has a definition that’s this fucking loose, we are opening the door for literally anyone to shoulder their way into this community.
I’ve already addressed this. There is a consistent definition. One Google search gets you that definition.
And even if there wasn’t, or if certain people reframe the definition to better mesh with their own personal experiences, why are you not extending this same rude-ass rhetoric towards bisexuals and pansexuals who constantly argue over the definitions of bi- and pansexuality? Why are you not extending this towards cis lesbians who argue if trans women can or cannot be WLW? Why are you not extending this towards cis gay men who argue if trans men can or cannot by MLM?
No one is ‘shouldering’ their way into any community. The asexual community is already a part of the LGBT movement. They’re not leaving just because you make rude posts like this.
Almost every single exclusionist I’ve spoken to has thought at some time or another that they were ‘demisexual’ or ‘grey-ace’ or some other bullshit ‘aspec’ term.
Exclusionists who do identified or have identified as asexual are not some sort of ‘gotcha’ for how the asexual community is bad. Once again, ace people expressing their experiences and suggesting to someone ‘you might be ace’ are not somehow homophobic or forcing people to be LGBT any more than the people in my life who told me I may be trans or agender were transphobic or forcing me to be trans or agender. If someone no longer identifies as asexual because of any given reason, that isn’t the fault of the asexual community for expressing that the option exists.
Have you ever spoken to an asexual who first found out about the definition of asexuality? Let me share my experience - when I first discovered the definition of asexuality and realized ‘oh, that’s me’, I sobbed tears of joy and relief for hours. I spent ages pouring over asexuality resources and participating in forums and embracing my new identity. And my experience isn’t some one-off thing - if you look into asexuality forums and websites, this is something many of us experience. In a world so overcharged with sexuality and people constantly telling us ‘you’re broken’, ‘you’ll find the right person’, etc, etc, an allosexual will never ever know what it’s like to have this feeling of relief that an asexual experiences when they first find out that’s an option.
Asexuality isn’t a spectrum. You either want sex/feel attraction to some degree (non-ace) or you don’t (ace). You don’t need a label for not wanting to fuck strangers. In fact, most people don’t want to fuck strangers. Demisexual is the norm!
“Why is there no coherent/consistent definition of asexuality???”
“Here is my (wrong) definition of asexuality! If you disagree with it you’re a homophobe!”
And that’s why the ‘asexual community’ should never be allowed in bc it’s an excuse for cishet people who don’t like hookups to invade spaces that were specifically made to get away from cishets.
We’re already allowed in. The ace community isn’t some out-group trying to get into the LGBT community. We’re here, and we’re staying, even when whiny exclusionists like you try to make these gotcha-style posts. Asexuals aren’t cishets, no matter how much you cry about it.
“Straight” isn’t a sexual orientation, it’s a position of power.
A-Spec Identities are Not Secondary.
Invisibility is Not a Privilege.
“passing privilege” is not a real thing.
Straight-passing privilege: a myth
Bad arguments against allowing a-spec to identify as queer
Having your identity erased is not a privilege.
asexuality, like bisexuality, is deliberately misunderstood by out groups in order to exclude us.
ace/aro people don’t “only” experience attraction to the ‘opposite gender’ or any other. that’s the point. we also experience a lack of attraction, either romantically or sexually, and that lack of attraction is part of our identity.
Straight is not default.
How many straight people do you know that want to kill themselves because of their orientation?
The closet is not a privilege
On that point—you can absolutely be ace and cishet. First of all, you can be asexual, cisgender, and heteroromantic (or aromantic, cisgender, and heterosexual). That’s pretty obvious. If you can have gay ace people, you can have straight ones. But that’s not even the most important point.
Yes, you can be a ‘cishet ace’, in the contexts you described. The reason people despise being called ‘cishet ace’ is because it’s being referred to in the traditional ‘cishet’ context of ‘non-LGBT person’. Some het aces identify as straight. Some het aces don’t identify as straight, they identify as asexual, and it’s not your place to label them against their will. There is no world in which aroaces, people who experience no attraction to anyone, are straight.
Let’s talk about the marginalised sexualities in the LGBT community. Prior to the introduction of the wholly unnecessary, toxic, and damaging split attraction model (I’ll get into that on my next point), homosexual meant homosexual and homoromantic. The sexual suffix designated the sex of people you’re attracted to. Homo meaning same, thus, same sex attraction, because that’s how Latin works. Same for bi. Same for hetero, even. Asexual is the only one that attempts to redefine this system. It should mean a- (meaning none, or lack of), therefor attraction to no sexes. It’s pretty simple. But the pure aceys saw the sexual suffix and immediately thought ‘oh that means fucking right?’ And decided they had to change shit.
Once again, citation needed. Stop trying to redefine asexuality and speak on behalf of asexuals. Asexuality IS ‘attraction to no sexes’. You’re so desperate for material that you’re pulling shit out of your ass to pin on ace people.
The split attraction model is massively harmful. It encourages internalised homophobia and compulsive heterosexuality. My gay ass for AGES was like ‘I’m grey-ace homosexual biromantic uwu’ because I thought I couldn’t just be a filthy homo, I had to be special somehow, I had to make myself available to women in some way even if it wasn’t sexual availability. The SAM causes LOTS of developing LGBT kids to struggle with denying their own identities under the guise of embracing them through microlabelling. Among teenagers it’s almost like a damn contest, like who has the most obnoxious, convoluted label. It’s stupid and damaging.
Can you provide any non-tumblr sources about the SAM being problematic? Because I have only ever seen exclusionists on this hellsite trying to claim this. Additionally, your experiences are not universal, they are not a ‘gotcha!’ for the ace community, and they are not a valid argument. I spent 5+ years believing I may be transgender, before establishing I likely was not. I do not in any way blame the transgender community for making me think that way, because it was not the fault of any trans person for providing resources for me and supporting the possibility. Healthy exploration of one’s sexuality and gender is OKAY. It isn’t a bad thing, despite what exclusionists like to claim. If you identified one way for a while, and then no longer identify that way, that is HEALTHY EXPLORATION AND GROWTH, not internalized homo-/transphobia and not the fault of any asexual.
Also, the SAM is only commonly used amongst ace and aro people anyway, since it offers a chance for us to distinguish what kind of ace we are. If you can acknowledge that ‘cishet aces’ exist who are heteroromantic and asexual, then you shouldn’t have any issue realizing that biromantic, panromantic, homoromantic, etc aces also exist and may, you know, want to acknowledge that part of themselves? I am romantically interested in men and women - should I ignore the SAM and just call myself aro/ace anyway even when that isn’t an accurate description of who I am? Am I hurting myself by giving myself a more specific label?
Another serious topic I need to discuss: Ace advocates encouraging children and teens to identify as asexual. Literal children shouldn’t be experiencing sexual attraction. I’ve seen ace people telling a TWELVE YEAR OLD that she was asexual because she didn’t feel any interest in sex. She’s a child. Of course she didn’t. I was told when I was 14 that I was ace and I, being a vulnerable child, embraced the label and carried it til I was 17.
No one ‘encourages’ children and teens to identify as asexual, ESPECIALLY not children. Once again, someone saying ‘you might be ace’ is NOT forcing that label onto someone. YOUR EXPERIENCE IS NOT UNIVERSAL. YOUR HATRED FOR THE ASEXUAL COMMUNITY IS NOT A STANDARD.
I was 14 when I discovered asexuality. I was ruthlessly mocked in school for not having a boyfriend. Many people in my class were discussing how they had lost their virginity and the sexual endeavors they took part in. Yes, at FOURTEEN. 13+ year olds are not innocent children who do not experience any form of sexual attraction or libido. It is far more damaging for teenagers growing up to NOT know there is an option to be asexual and force themselves into dangerous and harmful sexual situations to ‘fit in’. The number of asexuals I know or have spoken to who were forced to have sex, send nude pictures of themselves, or otherwise been put in a sexual situation they didn’t want to be in, simply because they didn’t know that being asexual was a valid option that existed and thought they were broken, is immense. THAT is a unifying asexual experience that an allosexual will never understand.
The reason you can be too young to identify as asexual and not too young to identify as lesbian/gay/bi, is because LGB people experience attraction of ALL sorts to the gender(s) they are attracted to, and romantic attraction develops much earlier than sexual attraction (that’s why we have puppy love and not puppy lust). Asexuality as it is defined presently is purely about sexual attraction.
I thought you said there WAS no coherent asexuality definition? Can you at least try to have a coherent argument?
By your logic, 12 year olds who feel they are transgender and go on permanent body-changing hormone blockers/HRT that they may eventually regret are more valid than a 15 year old using the label of asexuality that they may eventually move away from without any damage. That is asinine.
Honestly it’s far more creepy that way exclusionists constantly talk about minors and sexuality. You guys are more obsessed with it than any asexual who suggests or acknowledges the existence of asexuality to someone.
Lastly, asexual and aromantic people absolutely deserve a sense of community, a sense of belonging. They absolutely need a place where they can interact with people who are like them! The problem is, LGBT people and ace/aro people don’t have that much in common. At all. We don’t face the same issues either. If LGBT people could make our community amidst serious legal and social ostracisation and oppression, without the help of the internet, ace/aro people can absolutely make their own community in the cyber age that is relevant to the issues they face so that they don’t talk over the serious topics the LGBT community discusses.
You cannot in one breath say “Asexuals are valid” and in the next deny their experiences. Spend five minutes in the community and you will see testimony after testimony from aces describing their abuse, their sexual assault(s), the countless times people have called them confused, broken, wrong, mentally ill, inhuman, sinful, and how these experiences have left them feeling hopeless, alone, alienated, subhuman, depressed, and suicidal. Almost every asexual out there will tell you a story of how their orientation has caused them pain and struggle, and you can’t call them valid while at the same time calling these experiences invalid and nonexistent.
Bonus: This is a list of all the mainstream LGBTQ groups that include asexuals.
Also, we do have our own community, because every letter in the acronym has its own community and yet is still part of the acronym, and yet you fucking shits won’t stop sending us hate and bombarding us with shit meant to trigger and harass us.
I genuinely don’t expect you to read or attempt to acknowledge any of this - that’s simply the way exclusionists are. However, you are wrong. You are not helping anyone by being an ace exclusionist. You are simply a vocal minority and a bigot - nothing more, nothing less.
A full list of resources and information can be found HERE for further reading.
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have you ever talked to any dysphoric women? a lot of how you talk about yourself just sounds similar to their experiences, i think you might find a community w them
(same anon) also, Leslie Feinberg, queen of a butches, called hirself both a lesbian and transgender. I just feel like a lot of your pain is in talking with people who don’t agree with you, instead of finding a home with the people who are like you. (also, jsyk, i’m a lesbian who would date a female with dysphoria, however they identified- as genderqueer, as a boi, a non-transitioning trans man, whatever. thats more common than you think, and there’s a long history of it. you’re not the first)
I have actually, though that was before I was in any way tolerant of radfems.
I think my issue with the (very small) community of dysphoric women is that they often have very strong reasons not to identify as trans men. The reasons I would reidentify (if my dysphoria allowed for it, which it currently does not) would be to work through trauma, to accept my body as it is (to the extent that that’s possible) as I can’t transition, and a little bit to be a defiant little shit to anyone who only accepts me with my masculinity and attraction to woman because I’m at least trying not to be a woman.
This may be the case for some others, but I feel like a lot of them view transitioning/being trans as a genuinely bad thing and I just cannot relate to that nor do I want to be in a community that pushes that. And this may be my truscum side speaking but I do feel that quite a few self described dysphoric women don’t have actual dysphoria, and eventually it does get tiring hearing accounts of regular ol internalised misogyny be labeled as dysphoria.
The people I can relate to is the ones who still want to pass/transition in order to alleviate dysphoria, but recognise themselves as female, and as such as women. I do follow a few of those people, and would love to make a few friends like that. I don’t want to just step away from the trans community though. Regardless of my opinions and how hated they are by the majority of the trans community, I am still dysphoric and I want to have access to resources and support for that, and I want to give support and advice back whenever possible. The maybe 20 people on this website who are like me are just not a replacement for a network like that.
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