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koimethehorizon · 8 months

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Fionna and Cake theory: Simon the Artist

Nothing like a good old creative panic attack.

Fionna and Cake good. Haven’t been excited about a show like this in a long time, though it being a part of Adventure Time does help quite a bit. I was holding on to some cautious optimism for the show when it was announced as yet another big IP series covering the multiverse (still waiting to groan at THAT scene where Prismo has to explain to us about there being infinite universes), but as usual, Adventure Time’s crew continues to surprise me with its creativity, humor, and thematic resonance.

The most striking part about Fionna and Cake so far is just how deliberately the show wants us to differentiate it from the original Adventure Time.

We’re getting shots where Simon pops an artery from his arm, a theme song that explicitly talks about suicidal ideation, discussions of rent and financial problems, and curses no longer disguised with AT’s usual dialogue. Adventure Time has always had violence, thematic density, and juvenile rating pushers, but they were always reserved at small points. Meanwhile, these are factors that are just casually shown and discussed in Fionna and Cake every 3 minutes or so. This is not an all-ages miniseries, it’s for young adults. (hint: this will be relevant later)

Let’s get right into it. This is much less a speculative lore theory and more on what thematic direction the story may be going.

Before we do, let’s get this out of the way first. This theory assumes that the current Fionna and Cake world is all a part of Simon’s head and not merely a separate multiverse, which… I’m certain is fact for the following reasons.

The immediately obvious piece is that Fionna and Cake was always the Ice King’s fanfiction. Now if you’re versed in AT’s continuity you’re probably going to be asking about the red light in Fionna and Cake + Fionna and… I’ve no answer for it unfortunately. It’ll probably be relevant later in the series and possibly age this post like milk but for now, we’re not here to focus on the how, but the why.

Second is that the intro and the ending of Ep 2 literally show Fionna’s world spilling right out of Simon’s head like an animated world out of a frozen brain. If that isn’t clear enough-

Didn't realize this until writing, but these glasses are just plastic made to look like Betty's

There’s no other explanation for this other than that this world is artificial or influenced by Simon in some sense. Fionna even specifies that the statue went under renovation 12 years ago, but nobody seems to know who it is. Considering how Finn looks in the episode, it’s likely that it’s been that long since Betty’s sacrifice in the finale.

With that out of the way, here it goes.

The reason Fionna and Cake exist in the first place is because the creators found Natasha Allegri’s genderswap designs charming and wanted an in-universe reason to use them the Ice King wanted to create trashy, wish fulfillment through art. It was a phase.

Definitely changed that image for publishing.

Simon can argue if they’re good or bad but it’s undeniably his art. It’s not just a portfolio he left behind in a closet, it’s an experience that was shared with a larger audience.

And even if wasn’t liked at first, the citizens of Ooo seemed to have come around to it. And some of them love it!

Whether Simon likes it or not, he has a fan base that is so endeared to the story he made all those years ago that they demand he makes more. Why let a good story, loved by many, go to rest when you still have some life and creativity left in you?

Can't move on in more ways than one.

Except, the problem is that Simon isn’t Ice King anymore. He’s aged out of it.

His real passion is history, he's an adult who who finds passion in the mundane and antiques from the past. And frankly, there isn’t much room for wish-fulfillment and fantasy anymore. Simon has responsibilities. He has a job and a daughter in a world that is moving faster than he can process.

And where Ice King wrote about looking for love, Simon has already had it.

And lost it. His mind isn’t focused on the rosiness of finding new love, it’s grieving the one he already thought was the one.

Wasn't he supposed to be good with kids?

Despite his new life experiences, all his peers seem to want from him is to make more of what they’re familiar with.

A story made from wants and wishes that he doesn’t even have anymore.

A story that was literally made by someone else at a different time. It’s a fiction he cannot connect to anymore, art that he’s embarrassed by. Yet also jealous of. Because at one point, the body Simon used to be in understood what exactly was missing from his life and could express that easily.

Seeing it again is like experiencing a retrospection of a cringey loser you don’t want to imagine having ever been. It’s not you anymore, and you don’t want to be reminded of that.

Because despite him having a new creative passion, no one seems to care about that. All they want is Fionna and Cake. And what is more lonely than other people misunderstanding what you’re trying to express?

If I failed to make it clear somehow, my theory is that: Simon’s relationship with Fionna and Cake is a metaphor for creators growing out of their art. And this new Fionna and Cake world is still comfort art born out of Simon’s current desires and perceptions.

The snippet subtitles this “child holding a phone”. I guess I’m wrong. Essay over.

Episode 1 and 2 both have direct parallels with each other. They’re both about a protagonist who are feeling displaced from their world, living a phase of losing a significant other, leaving a thankless job, wearing a mask of stability in front of the people they care for, seeking a guru at the heart of the forest, and concluding that they no longer belong in their current world.

But more importantly, Fionna and Cake (the characters, the world, and the show) are no longer for an all-ages crowd. Fionna and Cake now feature young adults, curses, gore, alcohol, partial nudity, financial issues, morning routines, mid-life crisis, and overt suicidal ideation. These are the feelings that Simon relates to and possibly desires to express through art. Thus, his story and our new miniseries have warped that way.

Am I overthinking this? No. How dare you assume that.

Is equating the unconscious writings of his dementia-ridden self to Simon as his younger self seem a bit odd? ….Kinda. Again, it’s not the how but the why that matters in this case. I'm NOT crazy, I have proof that there is some acknowledgment of this directly in the show.

Rewatch the bar scene and apply this reading of the episode to what Simon says there:

“Your old stuff, Fionna and Cake, honest to glob my man, is an inspiration to me.”

“My old stuff, I don’t really want to talk about my old stuff…”

“Why not? You should be proud! You wrote an entire extended universe in a fugue state if you think about it.”

"Simon cringes"

If you have ever shared art with a group of people in the past, you’ve had this conversation.

Not likely, not possibly, no perhapses. You HAVE.

And Fionna and Cake being an epilogue to a massive award-winning, near-decade-spanning, cultural sensation 5 years after it ended, might result in its creators feeling very retrospective about what audiences want from them now.

And how difficult it’s going to be to tell new experiences and tones from what’s come before. Also, come on. “Extended Universe?” That doesn’t sound like Fionna and Cake. That sounds a lot like something else.

Again, seems bad with this kid.

One of the more profound shots in the main trailer for the show features the inconspicuously Finn-like kid crouching at her Fionna and Cake book in Simon’s trash. I believe this character is going to have a major role in two ways. Convincing Simon to be proud of what he’s accomplished and/or embracing that Simon wants to move away from his original work in order to create something new, or perhaps more likely, reinvent Fionna and Cake into what Simon relates to now.

We’ll just have to see what Simon thinks of his new Fionna next week.

PS. Talking as a fan now, WHAT IS UP WITH THE 1000+ TREEHOUSE IN THE INTRO?!!! ARE WE REVISITING THIS TIMELINE AGAIN?

SOMEONE TELL ME NOW!!!

#television #adventure time #fionna and cake #simon petrikov #fionna campbell #animation #speculation #theories #fan theory #character analysis #discussion #adventure time spoilers #fionna and cake spoilers

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astralbondpro · 10 months

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Star Trek: The Original Series // S02E16: A Private Little War

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samsrowena · 2 years

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my "chuck won" brain vibrating out of my skull when i think about dean being the one to give john the letter and why he would be trying to change the past if he's supposed to be "happy in heaven"... WHAT IS GOING ON

#i swear i am too impatient to watch weekly television just tell me everything. now. alsjfkflfld #spn.txt #the winchesters #spnwin #supernatural #spn #dean winchester #chuck won theory

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prokopetz · 2 years

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TV show that personifies the four fundamental forces of the Standard Model as cute anime girls and allegorises the various difficulties that arise from the unified field hypothesis as forms of relationship drama.

#concepts #media #television #tropes #physics #particle physics #standard model #unified field hypothesis #unified field theory #anthropomorphism #fandom #shipping

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bluboi-365 · 1 year

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Young Sheldon The Big Bang Theory

#young sheldon #big bang theory #sheldon cooper #jim parsons #missy cooper #georgie cooper #mary cooper #meemaw #bbt #film and television #reblog

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jstor · 1 year

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Here's another great Open Access book on JSTOR for y'all:

The Queer Fantasies of the American Family Sitcom by the admirably named Tison Pugh. We can't decide whether we're more excited about the Brady Bunch or Hannah Montana!

#queer theory #sitcom #vintage television #leave it to beaver #hannah montana #the brady bunch #roseanne #modern family #the cosby show #tison pugh #open access books #open access #academic research

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mr-imagin8ion · 7 months

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Once I had a worrisome thought.

I was thinking about The Big Bang Theory, and I thought: the show wastes a lot of its time talking about science. It would be more interesting if we ever actually saw a show where two guys, a girl, an Indian guy, and guy 5 actually do something with the science they're talking about, like inventing.

Then it hit me:

#the big bang theory #phineas and ferb #television

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the-nosy-neighbor · 1 month

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Televisions in Welcome Home

There is something otherworldly about TV.

This is something that bleeds nostalgia for those of us that grew up with tube TV’s. The TV has been a focus of horror media for a while, reflecting that fear of TV rotting your brain and being a passive behavior that doesn’t result in a tangible object or product (for the most part). Seeing TV “snow” and thinking about how you could see a bright dot as the TV went off, or the slight static that you could feel when you turned on the TV (because we couldn’t keep track of a remote.)

Welcome Home exists through television, and it makes sense that it would be how that world communicates with ours.

This television is on the table in the staff room, and includes both the mystery phone and the red notebook that belongs to the WHRP.

I assume this is the same TV.

TV in its location on the table:

TV suddenly changes:

This really gets to me. This strange TV is in one photo only, and it’s the last photo of the table in the sequence. It could be assumed that the TV was swapped out, but the placement and the note being on this one as well, just feels like something is wrong with it. Also, the previous one is dark/off, and this one is on, so it could be proof of the prior TV being broken and swapped out. Weirder even is that this is the TV that someone came up with as a replacement. As an older person, I can tell that this is a travel TV/radio combination. It’s got the antenna and the radio dial to find stations. However, it might be even older than the TV they had. I wonder if that impacts the reception of messages from Wally and co.

In the latest update, we have information from the WHRP’s W (Patient Zero) about why TV’s might be left on, and how urgent it is to have them repaired or replaced:

When the website first launched, I had found something playing from a very old television in my home. I was compelled to turn it on. I could see something, I could hear it too, but I had nothing to record it with. I would occasionally turn the television on. I don’t know why, I think I could hear or see something. Finally, last year in the summer, I had taken a photo and listened to dialogue that I believed to be from the show itself. I felt like an idiot, I hadn’t recorded anything, I was so entranced by what I was seeing.

Since then I haven’t turned it off. I wouldn’t let that mistake happen to me again, if I kept watching and listening I knew something would come back. I was finally rewarded in December. The channel it appeared on didn’t make any sense, but I didn’t care. Video evidence and audio started playing, one after the other. I’ve captured and compiled together whatever I could. I can’t make sense of anything, older television always felt strange to me anyways.

We can see from this text that W started seeing small clips of this show through an older TV in their home, and they continued to seek out more, feeling desperate to see and record the information coming through. What if the QA was similarly affected? They could now see the things in the TV, and wanted to have it on constantly, in order to see these videos. We have further information here through the TV.

The static TV from the secret page, where you can barely hear and see Wally (above, listed as “the same TV”) is being recorded by a handheld camera. You can see the edges of the TV change as the person moves from side to side a bit and moves closer and further from the TV.

From the photo of the TV in a dark room next to the yellow phone (showing Julierella), we can see that this is in the same location on the table. I need to check and see what photoset this is from, but I believe it is from the staff only page.

So, W says they have seen things this way, and now the QA is seeing the same kinds of things. I think we can differentiate some of their experiences. I want to say maybe they are the same person, because of the similarities (both archivists, both obsessed with the subject, both hearing ringing) but it pretty clearly states that they are seeing different things on the TV.

W sees commercials, but only actual clips with Eddie (if W is to be trusted.)

“I knew I had to stop though, I was too exhausted and I was tired of waiting (sic) through hours of static just to find another commercial. I don’t know how this was happening. But the show never appeared beyond clips of Eddie Dear.”

The QA sees the Julierella video that W claims to only have seen stills, as evidenced in the photo above. If they have seen any other videos, they have not provided any information or proof of it.

Whether W or QA are the same person or counterparts, we are seeing that they are able to see things from the show through older televisions. Could it be that contact with the black goo is something that provides them with the ability to see these things? They have to be on a tube television, instead of a modern TV. I would think this is related to either Wally or the show itself only understanding how to broadcast on tube TV's.

Following this logic, it could be very possible that the neighbors are on all of our tube televisions, but without the black goo, we can't see it.

#welcome home #welcome home theories #welcome home arg #welcome home wally #television

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lachlanthesane · 6 months

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People of Tumblr, my cousin and I have made a major stride forward in the field of Fictional Character Autism Research.

Name a fictional character who:

Has a single safe food they are extremely well-known for enjoying

Goes through multiple hyperfixations, usually a different one in every story/episode they appear in

Stims when happy or excited

Wears the same comfortable but old-fashioned outfit every day

Has an incredibly well-trained service dog

Drum roll please, folks...

It's WALLACE.

1. Cheese is his safe food! He knows loads about cheese because he is hyperfixated on it and he wants to know everything about why its taste and texture varies!

2. In addition to cheese, he hyperfixates on various different things and usually expresses that by inventing stuff to help! In A Grand Day Out he's hyperfixating on space travel. In A Close Shave he's hyperfixating on window-cleaning and bungee-jumping. In Curse of the Were-Rabbit he's hyperfixating on rabbit behaviour (at a time when the rest of the village is getting very upset about rabbits).

3. This hand-wiggle thing he does when he's excited? That's STIMMING, baby!

4. He always wears the button-up shirt and woolen sweater because it's comfortable for him. He wears the tie because he's heard in the past that it's important to dress formally when you want to be taken seriously, and so he dresses formally all the time because it's more comfortable for him anyway. (TBH this is the biggest stretch because most autistic people I know despise the feeling of woven wool, but at least he's wearing the sweater over the top of another clothing item?)

5. Gromit is a service dog, possibly the best-trained service dog of all time. He doesn't wear a service dog vest because he doesn't need to -- it's possible that Wallace trained him personally without actually knowing what a "service dog" means. Everyone else in town just lets Gromit do whatever, because whenever a new person buys a shop in town, they get a brief talking-to along the lines of "This Wallace chap is a bit weird but he's a good soul, his dog is smarter than him and you can let it do whatever it likes, do not trust any of Wallace's inventions".

Anyway, if anyone has any research grants for the Fictional Character Autism Research program, I'll split the payment with my very autistic cousin who came up with most of this.

#autism #fictional character autism #wallace and gromit #insane theories about british television shows

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monkey-network · 4 months

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The Disposable Era of Cartoons

There exists many cartoons in the world that a vast majority never really bring up, and that's okay. Not everyone can watch everything all the time and you can argue that we only scratch the surface since the beginning. I've always had this deep seeded thought however of how animation's been treated, notably of tv shows. Browsing my usual "streaming" sites, I often come upon a show I've never heard of before. One just recently was Zokie of Planet Ruby, a series made by Nelvana, hosted by Nickelodeon, with its entire first season dropped on Amazon Prime on the last day of 2023. Overall, it's not a show I'm interested in, but how it was just dumped onto streaming upon other factors like that got deep seeded thought resurfacing into a theory. A theory regarding the potential era where excess is reaching its apex.

Animated TV shows I say are more arduous to make than films. Not to say films are more effortless to produce, god no, but have better limits given you'll have a set script and runtime to work off of as opposed to having to constantly produce multiple at a time for episodes ranging from 7 to 22 minutes. We work on a timeline where it's hard to believe any new story isn't derivative of already told stories, but the beauty does come in how we're able to transform them with new purposes and concepts. The workload however can be a lot many recognize but don't grasp themselves only as outsiders. The pitch getting greenlit is just the big toe in the door, finally stepping in is a matter of juggling multiple episodes a day, revising and editing, deliveries to the animators, all for the hope that it gets back in time to air. This is where I've come to appreciate The Simpsons, good and bad. Regardless of a recent season's quality, it's undoubtedly difficult to schedule fresh ideas that can stick with the same concepts for 30+ years, all to meet the quota by the beginning of the autumn season. Things have shifted thanks to streaming.

In retrospect, what felt like a novel idea was inevitably gonna turn into a capitalistic nightmare. It makes some sense that Netflix wouldn't have a monopoly on hosting every show from cable TV to be put on their newly founded streaming site in 2007. It wouldn't have been long before every other studio threw their hat in, developing their own stream sites with the properties they made and owned themselves. Competition is natural, but now you're basically spending the same prices as cable or satellite if you wanted to watch every show you remembered seeing on TV. Sites like Tubi and PlutoTV I say are the saving graces where you can shockingly find a ton of film/shows old and new for free, but you've probably seen shows and films getting removed from the sites they originate from, either to be traded to another site or written off for good because investment returns weren't a shake 'n bake. All this is because of rights ownership and a complex web of cost cutting against the people behind said shows and films. What does this mean for cartoons, though?

Like TV shows, you're gonna have a few poster boys upon a ton of shows nobody beyond avid seekers are gonna bother remembering. This has been a trend long in the making, but while many shows can be greenlit and made it can be a crapshoot as to whether the company actually believes in that show enough to market it. For Nickelodeon, it's an open secret that any cartoon not an instant hit like Spongebob, despite little promotion from the company, would be chucked onto the Nicktoons network to run out their remaining episodes. With streaming however, you'd either get something like Zokie of Planet Ruby where everything's dumped without warning or Glitch Techs where it's stuck in development limbo with half its episodes un-aired or incomplete. This isn't just with Nick however. Disney and Cartoon Network has had its fair share of duds everyone's slept on if they weren't massively eyecatching regardless of quality. The fates of their existence is dependent on who's keeping an eye on the companies. This isn't to say shows like Infinity Train and Final Space, which got removed digitally back in October and December respectively, didn't have their supporters who expressed outrage. It's to say other shows couldn't get that level of reported support, and I feel it's only going to get worse.

This is what I believe amounts to the theoretical "Disposable Era" of television, where we aren't just having companies dispose shows but create shows that are purposefully disposable. For websites designed to stream cyclically endless content, this will mean an exponential ton of commissioned projects for cheap that anyone will pick up once, never watch again, and can be written off immediately after a small period because no one outside the crew responsible would notice, incapable of viewing unless someone miraculously torrents everything. While I've brought up TV in general as opposed to just animated stuff, I personally feel the efforts and imaginative possibilities of animation count more for the generations that grow up with them as much as the influences they can have on artists. And I can feel it's discouraging for creators to know that their work can be eventually assembly lined, worst than reality tv, and then erased for tax breaks because nobody thought about them for more than the weekend they binged it all.

This is all if you don't account for anime studios like MAPPA which are a whole other horrifying story

I say "theoretical" because we aren't that far to where it could be possible. Shows do take time to make, and even if companies are pushing AI it's barely able to be anything more than an asset for certain cases. People have their reasonable fears, but an animated show fully AI generated that lasts more than 2 7-minute episodes, at this point in time, is a wet dream from investors. AI will not easily replace the craft, but the craft will be abused year after year with of how many shows get greenlit, made within a couple years, only to be thrown out when the numbers don't appease. This doesn't mean we won't get quality gems, but the rough they come from will pile more and more, and the gems some find that the majority will ignore will be written off and vaulted. I say the inception behind my theory wasn't exactly from the recent stuff like David Zaslav or Paramount's haphazard treatment of their content, it goes a little further back.

Hanazuki: Full of Treasures wasn't a huge series back in 2017, but it was one I enjoyed a lot when it was premiering on Youtube at the time. After its first season finished, Hasbro would produce a theatrical short to coincide with the My Little Pony movie in October. This is where I felt things fell apart. While the film was a commercial success, the short was basically overshadowed and I can't help imagine was what affected the series by the time it got a season two. 2019 was where Hanazuki not only got its broadcast season cut, Hasbro would basically start erasing its existence while supposedly having in development limbo since. While it was all thankfully reuploaded, you wouldn't have been remiss to know Hasbro couldn't even allow it to stay on Youtube after its TV broadcasting.

Everything surrounding rights ownership and royalties has basically developed an endless turmoil of how shows and their crew are treated. I don't blame anyone for not discussing or mentioning everything that gets to exist. Variety is never a bad thing, and sometimes people want certain things because again not everyone thinks or enjoys stuff homogeneously. It's just always increasingly bothered me that so much can get pumped out to be either taken away or left there for people to stumble across. TV's become Youtube but more business heavy where creativity is a tightrope of whether their appeal gets to live for more than a week or not. Like Youtube though, can also be lost to time to no one looking back. Let's just say David Zaslav running WB is only considered the worst because he's become the biggest face of an open secret. He could very well be the beginning of a shift that could lead us into the Disposable Era, and it's anyone guess of how bad it could get.

With all this said, I don't believe preventative hope can't exist, especially without the effort. Piracy is already doing enough for preservation and availability, even if you gotta have adblock to watch them properly. More creators I feel should learn and process the rights they can have with their properties. If there's anything I learned from artists Bill Watterson and Making Fiends' creator Amy Winfrey, is that production syndicates will abuse their knowledge of the law to do as they see fit, especially when it comes down to what you're offering them. The eventual animators and VFX work strikes could provide something more stable, but that's all in due time. How much the average audience member can retain or hyperfixate on is not something to concern, rather that it happens at all. The best solution is finding a middle ground between the disposable and sentimental; more people being vocal about good stuff they found no matter how small. There can be pushback from online lethargic asshats, but it's far better than complaining about the multitude of reboots or how woke everything's become. Something is only as disposable as nobody proclaims otherwise.

but that's all just a theory.

#cartoons #animation #television #cable tv #streaming services #film theory #theory #media preservation #long post #essay

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orojuice · 1 year

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Film Theory: Why Nayuta is such a Gremlin now in Part 2

Interestingly, Nayuta seems to be emulating a lot of Denji’s trademark character tics, including his laugh and propensity for flashing the “peace sign”.

However, Denji seldom laughs in Part 2, and he’s overall a more morose figure. Which begs the question where Nayuta saw these apparently defunct behaviors so she could copy them.

I theorize that while civilian Denji is too beaten down to act like he did in Part 1, he was still able to talk smack, lash out, and generally let loose as Chainsaw Man while he was out on hunts between Parts 1 and 2.

But since Chainsaw Man is a public figure now, it’s possible that some of his blue language and uncouth mannerisms got caught on camera.

Nayuta, being his kid, probably thought it would be super neat to see her kind and caring dad-bro being a superhero, and was thus exposed to high-octane and often profanity-laden turbo violence.

You’ll notice that in his fights set during Part 2 so far, Denji is either chiefly silent (Cockroach Devil) or talks in a cornier, scripted manner (Yuko). I take this to be him trying to course correct and provide Nayuta with a more wholesome and less erratic version of his alter ego to look up to.

But if this theory holds any water, I think the damage is done, and she prefers the goofier, foul-mouthed version of Chainsaw Man who seemed to be having more fun.

Nayuta watching tv panels are from a comic by cosie.

Voices not done by Ryan Colt Levy are from ElevenLabs.

#Chainsaw Man #CSM #Denji #Nayuta #nikke goddess of victory #television #film theory #Nayuta has two dads

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jenvid-forever · 2 years

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Love their friendship sm

#sheldon #sheldon cooper #leonard hofstadter #johnny galecki #jim parsons #tbbtedit #tbbt #the big bang theory #funny #sitcoms #television

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yeniayofnymeria · 11 months

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Theory: The End of A Stark "Will Sansa Die?"

Hi, Selam!

This week I would like to revisit a theory that I read years ago, but I have to say that I have rewritten it with my own additions and ideas. I want to say at the beginning what I'll say at the end, to be honest, for years I've had a 50% chance that Sansa will live or die at the end of the story, but I'm a little bit more on the possibility of her dying, but I have to say that it's still not a definite idea, I'm still not very sure.

Here I will not only discuss Sansa's possible signs of death, but also include some ideas between the lines on how her story might progress.

(It's going to be a bit of a long post and I hope my bad grammar doesn't kill your enjoyment of reading.)

As you know very well, none of the characters are safe, except for one person at least. For this reason, we approach almost every character, be it the main character or the lead, with the possibility that they might die.

While characters have their own missions in the story, the writers also impose other missions on them, and the two missions can be completely opposite as well as compatible. For example, even if character x sees himself as the savior of the story, the author can turn him into the villain of the story. People like Martin place hints about missions and story development in the text from the very beginning, and if we pay close attention we can see them, but sometimes we don't fully understand the purpose of the characters' existence. For example, I still can't figure out why Val exists. I think it's easier to predict the protagonists, after all, they are the main focus of the author, they are the characters that drive/shape the story.

Sansa is one of the main characters, like Cersei and Jaime, and there is no doubt that, like every character, the author has a mission for her. We're not going to discuss that here because that's not our topic, but the meaning that is attributed to her can affect the ending of the story.

In my opinion, the author has not yet used Sansa for her purpose. Yes, she served as Arya's foil at the beginning of the story, but I don't think her part in what happened between Ned and the Lannists is her raison d'etre, at least not her sole raison d'etre. Most fans think that she is the one who will turn into a player for the throne and make up for the Starks' lack of intrigue; some readers don't attach any special meaning to her; or some - like me - think that she will be partly involved in a game for the throne, but against Jon, to his detriment. It's impossible to know which of these three ideas will turn out to be exactly right without reading it, but some uncertainty about the character's purpose in the story creates a similar uncertainty about her possible ending, at least for me.

I'm thinking of two possible scenarios.

The first one is that, like when we start the book, she takes some actions against her family, which in this case it's Jon and Arya, but in the end she realizes what she did wrong, corrects herself and helps destroy the family enemy, which would be Littlefinger. That's a bit of a classic character development, so I'm actually leaning a bit towards that idea, especially with the prophecy of killing the giant that we think is Littlefinger.

In these scenarios, there are usually two possibilities; (1) the character survives and finds her own happiness by turning into a figure who supports her family until the end, or (2) she sacrifices herself for the sake of protecting her family / righting the wrong she has done(There are readers who think that because the Lady died instead of Nymeria, Sansa will sacrifice herself for Arya).

In the second scenario, she becomes the villain within the family and continues to reinforce her betrayal and is eventually executed within the family. Of course, the adjective "villain" here does not mean turning into a devilish temptress. For example, the desire to protect the inheritance rights of her brothers (against Jon) with good intentions and to elevate / secure her own position in return for all that she has suffered is quite possible and I think it would be a reasonable desire. Although I already think that she will act in this or a similar way, as I just said, she is more inclined to the possibility of correcting herself, but if she does not, "death" would be inevitable for such a figure. The person I got the theory from already thinks that Sansa will die by Arya's hand.

For this reason, we can approach the theory with two separate questions: Will Sansa die and if so, how/by whom?

First, let's look for an answer to the question "Will Sansa die, or rather, are there signs that she might die?". The short answer to this question is "yes". As we have already said, no character seems to be safe, so it will be possible to find at least one sign that could point to death for almost every lead and main character.

So, what are these signs for Sansa? Let's take them one by one.

Death Signs / Arguments

1- Our first sign is RED ROSE and SWEET SMELL.

When the characters smell sweet from someone or something, it is considered to be danger bells. Of course, we do not claim that they will die 100%, they may be there as a sign that they will face death and return from death, but if they have received more than one sign, it may be difficult to say that they will simply fall into a coma.

The red rose that Loras Tyrell gave Sansa at the tournament in the first book is remarkable. While he gave white roses to everyone else, he gave her a red rose, which Loras didn't even remember. It was probably a political gesture to honor his father for being the daughter of the Hand, which he did at Renly's direction in the show.

While white roses are usually associated with purity, innocence and cherishing, red roses are the most remarkable and most acceptable of all types of roses because they express love and passion. It is for this reason that it is the most valuable, at least spiritually, which is why Loras gives a red rose, but if we look at the author's intention, the fact that a sweet scent emanates from this rose can be interpreted as a sign that Sansa may die for the sake of love/love, considering the importance she attaches to love. Now let's elaborate on this scenario.

When we think of love, we usually think of romantic feelings between a man and a woman; if you remember the SanSan theory, Sansa's emotional bond with Sandor may be a path that leads to their deaths in the future. Almost everyone thinks Sandor will die in his fight with his brother, probably very few think he will survive. The part that interests me is the idea of how this will happen.

I have actually opened two threads for this in the past. Bran's coma dream, which refers to Sandor's fight with Jaime against his brother, and Sandor's motivation. If you haven't read it or forgotten the details, I recommend you to read it again.

Roughly summarized... So in the fight of the three shadows that we saw in Bran's coma dream, Sandor's motivation to fight his brother the Mountain could be to protect Sansa. Sandor will probably die protecting Sansa at the end of this fight.

Alternative Interpretation of the Rose Sign

Apart from the love for Sansa and Sandor, the red rose reference can also be interpreted as "love for family". After all, what we call love is not a uniform thing. Usually, when we buy roses for our mothers, we prefer red roses. This could fit the scenario that Sansa comes to her senses and dies trying to protect her family. Of course, I am closer to the love interpretation, but I think this is a possible scenario.

The Red Rose is the strongest death argument for Sansa. The ones after that can be considered equivalent or relatively less strong.

2- Let's continue with Lady The Direwolf.

Everyone knows that wolves symbolize their owners and are a sign of their fate. The Lady, like her owner, is a graceful and calm animal, but she is killed because of Cersei's hatred of wolves. Some interpret Sansa's naming of the wolf and its untimely death as a sign of two things. The first is that a character who was expected to be queen in the first book (because of her betrothal to Joffrey) will remain a lady forever , and the second is that Sansa will die with the early death of her wolf.

While I agree with forever lady interpretation, but I can't claim that I see the wolf's death as a sign that Sansa should also die, at least not directly. Yes, I'm not ruling it out as a possibility, maybe it is indeed a sign, but there is a more weighty view(for some people), which I'm a little closer to.

Wolves symbolize Stark children and their Stark identity. They are also the key to triggering the warg abilities. We know that Sansa is a warg, but it's a dormant ability that never triggers because her wolf died. Whereas all her other siblings have their wolves and their warg abilities have awakened.

So what does this detail mean for Sansa? Why is Sansa the only one of all the children who is deprived of this?

Well, like Nymeria, the Lady could have been kept alive somehow, but the author did not choose to do so. For some view is that Sansa is no longer a Stark as an "identity", that this aspect is dead. Don't get me wrong, of course she is still her father's daughter and a member of the family. We are talking about her spiritual Stark identity. If you remember, after letter she sent to her family, when Robb reacted angrily and asked what was wrong with this girl, Bran's answer was "her wolf is dead". It's a rather meaningless thought when you look at what's going on, but I think the writer is sending a signal here that Sansa's spiritual bond with the north and with the Starks has been severed.

In 2001, we see an interesting dialogue between the fans and Martin (actually, I remember there was something similar, but I couldn't find the source).

Well, 20-odd years later this information is still there, so I'm proceeding from the conclusion that it hasn't been refuted. And this is parallel to what I'm about to explain.

So, what exactly does Martin mean by that?

Now Sansa is disguised as Aleyna in the Vale and keep her role of father and daughter, as if performing a theatre with Littlefinger. No doubt she still remembers Sansa in her mind(even she is Sansa), but at LF's request, they continue to play father-daughter roles even when they are alone(it's important detail).

However, if you pay attention, there are changes in the names of the characters starting from the 4th book, this is a detail that Martin later thought of and added. The POV name is written in this way if the character feels himself as what or who he is at that moment.

In an interview in 2006, Martin explained that pov names are a sign of how the characters, but especially Sansa, think of themselves, and even in 2008, when asked if the Hound and Sansa will get together, He says: “Why? The Hound is dead and Sansa may be dead too, there is only Aleyne Stone.”

What is meant by death here, of course, is not bodily, but as a "spiritual-identity". There is a nice theory that the Hound is not essentially dead, but that the Hound within is dead. We've probably seen him in Brienne povs anyway... The author (seems) has made a statement that the same identity-spiritual death is also for Sansa. In later years, he explained the changes in these pov names of the characters as "identities are under attack." As a matter of fact, although we talking about Sansa, the identities of many characters such as Arya and Theon are also under attack. It looks like Theon has finally found himself, as we look at Mercy POV, we know Arya's holding onto her identity thanks to Needle and Nymeria, but Sansa?

She has neither a wolf nor an anchor like Needle to connect her to her identity.

Martin said the imaginary kiss was intentional and hinted at something; He explains by pointing to Sansa's psychology. When we first met Sansa, we saw that she told a little lie and we didn't dwell on it, we said we all tell little lies like that, but then the lies started to get bigger and more serious. Worse still, Sansa lies to herself the most, which is made most obvious by the imaginary kiss. Lying is one of the most striking situations in Sansa's story. She lies so often now that she begins to remember events that way (something we actually saw in the first book with the Mycah issue).

Considering Martin's emphasis on Sansa's psychology and Aleyna identity, in addition to the reason for the changes in pov names, Sansa will probably begin to consider herself as Aleyna in the future. It looks like Sansa will lose her identity while the readers wait for Arya. Of course, to me, this loss of identity will not be like the Faceless Men. Sansa will be well aware of herself, but she will see herself as Petry Baelish's bastard daughter Aleyna Stone; As we are used to seeing in spy movies, we can expect to see in Sansa the character starts to integrate with the identity she is acting after playing long enough.

In fact, this situation can be seen from time to time in actors who show method acting, they cannot get out of the role and their behaviors change because the point of this technique is not to portray the character, but to live. Like a method actress, Sansa does not portray the character of Aleyna, she is officially live it. You can easily observe this between the lines. Remember the scenes where Theon goes back and forth between The Reek and Theon. This shows that she will not be able to get rid of the LF effect for a long time, which is one of the reasons why I think she will act against Jon, because she is under the LF effect.

To summarize this matter, the death of Sansa's wolf is a sign for her breaking of her ties with Stark and the north, her distance from being a Stark spiritually and her slowly starting to assume the identity of Aleyna Stone. This, in the LF effect, makes her a pawn to be used against the Starks. If Sansa cannot find her identity again at the end of the story, I don't see it possible for such a person to live, she will definitely die at the end of the story.

3- Another argument, Blood Oranges

Actually, this is a bit sweet and death theory thing . Blood Oranges are death symbols that symbolize murder in the series. It caught our attention mainly in the Doran Martell scenes; Hotah was talking about the sweet smell of overripe and falling blood oranges, which, as you can see, also has a sweet side. Another notable example is the phrase "whatever you do, keep your hands clean" in the scene where LF squeezes and drinks a blood orange while LF's with Sansa, where they're talking about Joffrey's murder. Of course, these two are not the only examples, but the example that interests us is in the first book, between Arya and Sansa...

...the two sisters were talking about the Mycah murder at a time they were arguing at dinner and Sansa was lying again, Arya said "liar", squeezing the blood orange in anger, then she throws it to Sansa. The orange falls first on her head and then on her lap, staining her dress. Sansa's fear of Illyn Payne from the first moment she saw it; When we think about things such as having terrible dreams/fears that her head will be cut off, does the blood orange that hit her head indicate that she will be the victim of such a murder? Moreover, the orange falls into her lap, which is actually where her private area is; When she took off the dress, she was having a fit of crying, seeing that it was also covered in her underwear. Here Martin may have signaled that Sansa will be killed, there seems to be strong symbolism, especially when we combine it with the red rose scene.

The fact that her white silk dress was dyed a dark color (I think it was black) because it was stained shows that her innocence has been lost. Even if that's not his intention, the fact that she's poisoning Sweet Robin is a sign, or that she blames the singer for Lysa's murder. No doubt we have reason to justify this latest incident, but there may come times when we can no longer justify it, when Sansa can do things we can't justify.

4- For now, let's briefly touch on Sansa's dreams as the last argument.

Contrary to what we are used to, Sansa's dreams appear as psychological dreams triggered by her trauma. This shows that they have a lot of violence, of course, there are some that are not, some of them include longing for home and family. Sansa often dreams of Payne and is afraid of dying. She had seen the rebellion in a dream and had been struck with a sword in the stomach. Although it is a weak approach, the fact that dreams are so violent and bad, but especially the Payne detail, may be a reference that Sansa's fear of death can become reality.

I have theory about "Tully Women Mental Health."

Even though they have a strong psychology image at the first stage, after a point, the last generation Tully women are like iron like Stannis, but they have a mind structure that is so sensitive that they break before they bend over. I thought that Sansa had her share of it because she looked like her mother in everything. When you combine it with what I have told you so far, it may be possible to predict that Sansa has a very sensitive psychology and will experience a breaking moment in the future.

Further of the death marks and the Possible Sandor Scenario, could Arya have an interior in Sansa's death or murder?

While I don't think Martin would get Arya to kill her sister or anyone in the family, I can't dismiss the possibility because the conflict between the two sisters is not to be overlooked. From the very beginning, Sansa was created to be Arya's foil. Foil characters are those in which the meaning of existence is opposite. Martin wrote Sansa because he didn't think everyone got along well in a family. So the "conflict" between siblings is Sansa's main purpose of existence.

As a matter of fact, the Sansa'a arc, which I expect to come to the fore in the story, will be exactly in this direction; The escalation of her conflict with Arya...

The development of tension between the sisters...

We already know Sansa in the first Arya POV, and as the contrasts between these two are revealed right before us, a small and simple sibling conflict is staged. After that, the two sisters have more conflicts with each other during their time together and they are getting bigger every day, but then the Ned case happens and the sisters separate. It has gone beyond being a simple sibling quarrel between them, but we cannot claim that it is an irreversible situation that still crosses the threshold; at least until Arya finds out that Sansa has said her father's plan to Cersei. Even then, the threshold may not have been fully crossed, but if Sansa, as Aleyna, starts making moves against Jon by advancing under the influence of Littlefinger, as I believe she will, then the threshold will be crossed for Arya.

After all, Jon's appearance as a surprise egg is definitely an obstacle to LF's goals, and he must eliminate Jon to realize his thoughts about the north. The most useful tool for this is Sansa herself. We can read a triple attack as I believe LSH will come and join this duo, but LF will stay behind to keep his hands clean as per his life philosophy.

It becomes much more meaningful at this stage that Arya is equipped with abilities that she can use in Game of Thrones, such as understanding lies and learning to gather information... etc. In any case, the point of "understand a lie" becomes more meaningful when you think of Sansa and LF, who are constantly lying and are used to telling, and it becomes a more important skill. Of course, we should not forget the likes of Varys and Illyrio. So it looks like the author chose Arya, not Sansa, to make up for the Starks' lack of intrigue. I mentioned and explained these abilities in a old thread of mine and I even mentioned that the Kind Man teaches Arya of mother languages of Dany, Illyrio, and Varys besides Braavos.

But yes, Sansa will also get involved in intrigue/game of thrones as LF's student, but she will use it against Jon. This will bring the conflict between Arya and Sansa to the peak.

We read that Sandor said that when he looked at Arya in one scene, he said he thinks Arya want to kill Sansa; It's also worth remembering that Arya said "I don't hate her" while Ned admonished her not to stab Needle into her sister, saying "that was just half a lie". Of course, these may be red herrings, but the possibility of not being must be considered. This might be a reference, as it was Arya who threw the blood orange at Sansa.

These are my opinions in general, what do you think about it? Will Sansa die, and if she does, how?

TLDR: There are several signs that could indicate Sansa's death. These are the sweet fragrance of the red rose; blood orange scenes, killing/injuring in her nightmares are a few of them. In addition, the death of Lady may indicate that she dies at the end of the story as a result of her breaking away from her Stark identity, and it may also be a sign that Sansa begins to see herself as Aleyna Stone over time and enters into a game of throne against Jon and Arya under the control of LF. As the tension between Arya and Sansa grows, in addition to the possibility of Arya having a share in Sansa's death, there may also be a possibility that Sansa will die here by taking part in the Sandor and Mountain fight.Of course, you have to read the articles in detail for them to make sense.

Thank you.

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