Gentle reminder that if you're anti-endo (which is okay) because you claim you want to protect "traumagenic safe spaces" but go out of your way to hate on traumagenics who are neutral or- god forbid- pro-endo (which is also okay), you are NOT protecting traumagenics and actively excluding the people you claim to protect.

You are not the hero you think you are. You're a self-righteous hypocrite. If you claim you want to protect traumagenics, you protect ALL traumagenics, not only the ones that fit your idea of what a traumagenic should be or think like.

why do people think endogenic systems aren't real?

disclaimer: i am not a system nor am i part of one, and i am not able to speak for those who are. this is an opinion, and i would like constructive feedback on said opinion. i do not want hate mail or people screaming at me, i have had enough of that this week.

i do not get why people think endogenic systems aren't real. the argument i see most is that if it's not based on trauma (i.e. traumagenic) then it's not real, but i disagree.

firstly, many mental conditions can arise from non-traumatic experiences, and trauma is not a necessary catalyst for these things. i'm autistic, though i can't speak for others (because my support needs are very low) as a result of how i was raised, but not in a traumatic way. i've asked around a bit about this, and it seems that part can be agreed upon, in that mental conditions do not have to result from trauma.

secondly, i have not noticed any differences, aside from trauma or lack thereof, when speaking to those who are a system or part of a system. i cannot know what is going on in other people's heads, but i can look at how people generally act, and i do not notice any difference, though the sample size is low (about 5) so this could be coincidence. i might ask in passing conversation, "how does being a system work?" out of curiosity. they explain, and the explanations from traumagenic and endogenic systems, or members of said systems, are fairly uniform and don't seem to contrast very much, aside from individual mannerisms such as how it may present itself, which is bound to be subjective for any mental condition.

thirdly, i don't like the logic the argument as a whole operates on. if non-traumagenic systems aren't real, isn't that similar to the argument wherein people say non-dysphoric trans people aren't real, or that self-diagnosed neurodivergencies (e.g. autism, adhd, bpd, tourette's, dyslexia, and others as well, but i can't list a ton of them off the top of my head) aren't real. this is medical essentialist, or medicalist, logic, and it doesn't hold up very well under pressure. it frequently takes the form of when someone doesn't want to acknowledge that not everyone is like them, and most commonly presents itself in those who are bigoted in other ways, such as racism.

fourthly, when conversing about it, the reactions i get from either type of person are very different (sample size of about 40 here, so again, it's not entirely conclusive) if i ask someone who's anti-endogenic about it (what the point of the argument is, for instance), i am met with hostility and yelling, whilst if i ask someone who is pro-endogenic about it, i am met with straightforward explanations and my questions being answered. ultimately, it isn't one's duty to answer questions for others, but if one side of a debate refuses to answer questions and another is able to answer questions, then typically, the side refusing to answer questions is wrong. for example, flat-earthers will refuse to argue a lot of the time, and other times, they will mention various buzzphrases such as "water finds its level," and "density and buoyancy," which is a phenomenon i have noticed coming from some (but few) anti-endogenics.

that's what i've gathered from my observations, and i wanted to share this for the reason that i want to understand more, and particularly why some people think the things they do - in that they don't believe a particular group of people exists. to cap it off, i'll attach a poll below, asking what people think regarding this.

if you want to help the poll get more entries, then you can reblog this post or share it with friends. thank you for reading!

Info and Resources for Questioning Systems

Our old post with resources is out of date and doesn’t have that much information, so we’ve decided to put this together! Please let us know if we should make any corrections or if you have resource ideas you’d like us to add to this post.

NOTE: Before we get started, it’s so important to mention that every system should rule out trauma first before considering other origins. This is because complex dissociative disorders can present in covert ways, and function by hiding trauma from some alters. Even if you’re certain you’re not traumatized, please research and understand complex dissociative disorders before learning about other origin types. It’s possible to not remember or misunderstand trauma. Ruling it out first will save you a lot of difficulty and heartache in the future!

NOTE 2: As a system, we understand the terms “tulpa” and “tulpamancy” are cultural appropriation, and believe that as a community a different term for these systems should be selected. However, until that happens, we will continue to link handy resources for these sorts of systems.

Now, onto the resources!

This is not a complete list! If there’s any resource you’ve found useful and would like us to add, please get in touch!

Websites:

CDD (DID and OSDD-1) Specific:

Beauty after Bruises, and especially their article on myths and misconceptions about DID

Multiplied by One, a DID nonprofit that has a wealth of resources on dissociative disorders and CPTSD (and offering support for those in need!)

First Person Plural, another great nonprofit

ISSTD’s public resources

The Cleveland Clinic’s page on DID

Survivors’ Network (not to be confused with the Survivors’ Network Discord) page on DID

The National Alliance on Mental Illness’ info on dissociative disorders

DIS-SOS, a blog with tons of info on trauma, dissociation, and living with both

osdd.one, a site with information on complex dissociative disorders with a focus on OSDD-1

NAMI Michigan’s DID fact sheet

The Healthy Place’s blog on Dissociative Living

Non-CDD Specific:

What is Plurality/Multiplicity? by YoppVoice

More than One

Tulpa.io, Tulpanomicon, and Tulpa.info, all sites where tulpas, thoughtforms, willomates, and their creators can share their experiences

The Daemon Page

Daemonism 101

Manchester Metropolitan University’s Understanding Multiplicity

Plurality-Resources (traumagenic, not CDD, specific)

The Plurality Playbook, a resource for plurality in the workplace (for employees and managers)

Endogenic Hub

The Dissociative Initiative includes resources for both CDD systems and others who experience multiplicity

Soulbonding Info Carrd

Pluralpedia, a plurality wiki created and maintained by systems for systems

Podcasts:

The System Speak Podcast

The Bag System Podcast

Tumblr Blogs:

@pluraldeepdive

@system-society

@dear-systems

@plural-culture-is

@subsystems

@plurals-helping-plurals

YouTubers:

Pink Sugar Fairies

The Alexandrite System

FragmentDID

The Rings System

The CTAD Clinic

(psst! if you’re an endogenic/not-trauma formed system YouTuber, please let us know! we’d love to check out your videos and add your channel to this list!)

Other:

This Google Drive folder has 13 books on mental health, with a focus on dissociative disorders and trauma.

This Google Drive folder also has a bunch of great resources (keep in mind there are some repeats in both drives)

UTEP’s Mental Health Awareness Training infographic on dissociative disorders

Our own posts on Understanding DID, Establishing Contact with Headmates, Dissociative Amnesia, and Depersonalization vs. Derealization

Seeking help through therapy:

(specifically specialists in dissociative disorders)

Psychology Today’s search page for finding therapists who specialize in dissociative disorders

Carolyn Spring’s article, How to find a therapist for a dissociative disorder

The ISSTD’s Find a Therapist page

Websites we do NOT recommend can be found here! Note: some of the resources we’ve linked here have their own links to websites we don’t recommend. Please use your best judgement when visiting sites, and understand that we as a system DO NOT endorse the sites listed in the link above, even if we’ve included resources that link to those sites.

We hope y’all are able to find some of this useful! Again, please let us know if you have any resources you’d like us to add to this list. Thanks so much, everyone!

You don't have to answer, but I'm just curious:

What, to you, makes DID/OSDD more "proven" then non-disordered systemhood? That seems to be the point you keep coming back to.

Because OSDD/DID weren't always medically recognized. Does that mean before they were medically recognized, plurality itself wasn't real?

You INHERENTLY can't "prove" a subjective experience, and to apply that logic to anything psychological in nature is to ignore the limitations of psychology as a science, which is itself anti-scientific.

I don't have dyslexia. If I suddenly declared that dyslexia isn't real because I don't have it and nobody can objectively 100% without a shadow of a doubt prove to me that it is, regardless of how much supportive evidence there is, I'd still be wrong.

I will never experience the same experiences as a dyslexic person. Doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that the patterns in the wider human population heavily suggest that it's a neurodivergency that exists, because hey, there are all of these people with dyslexia symptoms!

Similarly, there are all of these people claiming to have symptoms of plural experiences without trauma. Not my experience, but ignoring it would be stupid.

And the idea that it must not be "real plurality," but that it could be something else is... I hate to say it, but that's ableist. "Ableist" in this case being used as a word for prejudice against neurodivergent people, yes including those whose neurodivergency may not be a disability in a vacuum but very much is within a societal context, such as endogenic systems.

(^ I could write a lot more on this point in particular, of why the word "ableism" actually is applicable in this situation, but that's ultimately not the point of this ask.)

First off using people with psychosis as your argumentative scapegoat just alienates psychotic systems, and yes, those two things don't cancel out. Even if it was psychosis that doesn't rule out systemhood as a possibility, and the possible interactions between psychosis and plurality definitely aren't studied enough to make that claim.

Also you're inherently promoting the idea that neurodivergent people should not be trusted to speak on their own experiences, which is ableism. I don't think there's any room to argue on that fact.

Especially given that plurality as a subject is extraordinarily under-researched. Even OSDD/DID are far from fully understood.

- A (traumagenic!) system member with a passion for psychology who doesn't really appreciate how y'all have presented psychology as a field.

(Sorry if I come off as rude, I speak rather bluntly but I'm not trying to offend. I am genuinely trying to engage in productive conversation. /Gen)

DID/OSDD is medically recognized, with an accepted theory of how it is formed and a known way/ways to treat it. That is what I regard as “proof” so to speak. You are right, DID/OSDD were not always medically recognized, and I would not claim they were not real prior to medical recognition. However, I do not claim endogenics are completely impossible or definitely do not exist, nor do I refuse to treat them with empathy and respect. I simply offer alternative explanations for endogenic experiences, and possibilities more medically supported than the idea of them being systems. Because of this, I am not entirely sure what your point is here. Just because something might be possible doesn’t mean I should immediately believe it. What I am saying is, without substantial evidence, I have no reason to believe in the idea of endogenic systems being possible. You cannot expect me to trust claims, and I hope you can acknowledge why I may not. Especially online. The idea you cannot prove a subjective experience is…interesting. I am no expert on matters of psychology – I have no qualifications and am simply a high school student with an interest in it – so I am not qualified to speak on that. However, I am yet to see psychology support the idea of endogenic systems. I am also unsure what you mean by “anti-science”. Again, I do not actively claim endogenics are not real, as there is as little evidence to support that as there is to support that they are real. It is not that nobody can 100% prove to me it is, but rather nobody can prove to me at all (as far as I have seen). “Regardless of how much supportive evidence there is"…there is no (or at least none I have been exposed to) evidence for endogenics, but please feel free to give resources if you have any. I am open to be proven wrong. “I will never experience the same experiences as a dyslexic person. Doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that the patterns in the wider human population heavily suggest that it's a neurodivergency that exists, because hey, there are all of these people with dyslexia symptoms!” People lie. That is a reality of life. There is proof of dyslexia [neurobiology supports the idea of dyslexia and there is an understanding of how it occurs in people, though not what causes it] and they are medically recognized. I do not ignore endogenic experiences, as that would be irrational. I would be screaming into a void and arguing against a blank wall. Listening to endogenics is something I must do to come to a reasonable conclusion on whether I believe there is a possibility it is possible to be endogenic. I’d need you to elaborate on the ableist point. I’m not quite sure how it is ableist to propose that there may be other explanations for endogenic experiences. For me, this would only apply if endogenics were supported by psychology and had a suitable theory on how they occur but I was simply choosing to ignore the already fitting explanation. That is not what I am doing. I am not claiming to know other people's experiences better than they do, I am not saying for a definite I know what causes endogenics to experience something akin to plurality. Also, you cannot be ableist to someone who is not disabled. You may say or do things that stem from ableist belief systems, but you cannot be ableist to an abled person. I don’t understand what you mean by “may not be a disability in a vacuum but very much is within a societal context”, you are either disabled or you are not. While someone’s disability may not affect them every second, even when their disability is not affecting them disabled people are disabled nonetheless. Please do feel free to elaborate on these points. (1/2)

From some random post we saw while doomscrolling through syscourse(which, are you alright? You're the top poster, which isn't really something to strive for in one of the most hate and rage driven tags systems can find themselves in on tumblr... should take a mental health break every once in a while):

Because, frankly, the anti-tulpa narrative was manufactured to shutdown created systems, and present bigotry in a way that appeared progressive. People aren't actually against words from other languages and religions being used in new ways. They're against these words being used by endogenic systems.

As a pro-endo mixed/POC system who has spent hours upon hours trying to understand the tulpa language discourse argument- I'm honestly really fucking hurt by this hugely inaccurate assumption. I don't see how we're trying to shut down created systems, what i see is trying to educate and steer people away from a term that was created through ignorance, racism [albeit not forwardly malicious], and cultural appropriation.

Tulpa creation bears no connection to Tibetan Buddhism anymore —not that it ever really did, given this exact phenomenon is not actually mentioned to exist, ever, by, i forgot the name of the person who invented the term but i know she was a) white and b) racist in ways outside of this — but is still touted around as being connected and part of that spiritual practice.

It's not about "we dont want endos using this term." It's that we want the term to stop being used ALTOGETHER. We personally have witnessed traumagenic systems exploring creating headmates, and we have steered them away from using tulpa language in favor of "parogenic" as a term.

It saddens us that you can just so brazenly dismiss it as a whole as shutting down created systems while so much else is going on that you're choosing to ignore.

You have a good heart - do more research into why people are saying what they are and don't just dismiss them like that. Please don't speak over those people who are a part of the culture being appropriated, simply because of refusal to change.

And yes, we asked this on anon not out of cowardice, but because we'd really rather not start getting a bunch of death threats on our main blog.

-Enzo

Okay, let's try a thought experiment. Imagine for a moment that there are two universes. In one universe, the anti-tulpa narrative begins and is popularized because it's harmful to Tibetan Buddhists as an ethnoreligious group.

In the other, the anti-tulpa narrative is concocted and pushed heavily by anti-endos as a way of delegitimizing one of the strongest and most well-researched endogenic communities.

What would you say the differences would be between these two universes?

Personally, I think if one were to enter the first universe, you would find several things.

Anti-tulpa sentiment probably would have begun in the early 2000s as the internet was coming into more sidespread use and shows like Supernatural and X-Files would use tulpas as horror monsters.

Similar to above, once backlash started, it would be hitting all presentations of tulpas, including in creepypastas and its use by the SCP Foundation.

Much of the backlash would be coming from members of the Tibetan Buddhist community, including at least some spiritual leaders because yes, religions have hierarchies of leadership.

Well, what about the second universe? What would we expect that universe to look like? Personally, I would expect the following:

There would be zero trace of anyone ever taking issue with the tulpas in shows like Supernatural or X-Files prior to tulpamancy being formed.

All backlash would be focused solely on tulpamancers. Nobody ever would mention the SCP Foundation, Mandella Catalogue or creepypastas about tulpas.

Most of the anti-tulpa backlash would be coming from system circles, and would be heavily pushed by anti-endos. While you might be able to fund a small handful of Tibetan Buddhists who have been convinced by anti-endo rhetoric that it's bad, there would be no spiritual leaders getting involved and most Tibetan Buddhists you ask outside of system spaces wouldn't care.

Which of these two universes do you feel most resembles our own?

Before you answer, here's a fun thread comparing the differences in people's opinions on r/systemscringe vs those on r/Buddhism

When r/systemscringe is pushing a narrative that the word is appropriation while actual Buddhist communities on the same site shrug their shoulders and don't care, this should send up immediate red flags as to the legitimacy of this whole controversy, and which groups are actually interest in pushing it.

Now, I am not suggesting that none of the very small handful of actual Tibetan Buddhists who have taken issues with the practice don't legitimately feel as they claim to.

The problem with propaganda is that it's often very good at manipulating people's emotions. If it couldn't do that, it wouldn't be effective.

We've seen this with similar anti-endo smears, like the ones claiming "system hopping" was appropriated from RAMCOA systems. And sure enough, despite its use in the plural community predating any RAMCOA connection by a full 16 years, this claim still persisted. And some RAMCOA systems were even manipulated by these lies and convinced endogenic systems were stealing terms from their community.

We actually see this same tactic over and over again.

We see it with "system hopping" which they claim was stolen from RAMCOA systems. We see it with "sysmed," which they claim is stolen from the LGBT community. We see this with the very concept of plurality itself.

The fact of the matter is that this has become a core manipulation tactic in the anti-endo playbook, designed to sew division.

@returntothesoup asks:

“Hi! We’re new to interacting with more systems and are unfamiliar with some terms folks us! Any chance you could throw out some definitions for like plurals and multiples and stuff? We just became aware on a grand sense in the last couple years and are working through a lot of stuff alone. Happy to find systems to get to know🫶🏻🩷”

Hello! Welcome to the Tumblr community! It can be toxic at times, so please take care of your mental health! You can block certain tags (like triggers, or communities and such!

Origin: this is referring to what causes the system to form, the most common ones used are Traumagenic, and Endogenic, however it is a spectrum, and also some systems are multi-origin!

Traumagenic: This is referring to systems formed due to childhood trauma. This does not mean every alter is created by trauma.

Endogenic: A spectrum term that refers to systems who formed without trauma. This does not mean they do not have trauma, or that they are faking, it just means they experience plurality outside of what the mainstream idea of plurality is. A example is religious formed systems! (Also to clarify, when I say it’s a spectrum term, look at it like how non-binary is used, some people use it as a label, and some use it as a spectrum, neither is less valid then the other.

Tulpamancy: although a lot of the time this gets grouped with Endogenic, I’d thought I’d explain it since it is quite different. For one, there is many names that are used to describe this. Obviously Tulpamancy, but also Willowgenic, Tulpagenic and Thoughtform. This basically describes the experience of creating a being in your mind sometimes called a Tulpa. This practice originates from an ancient Tibetan Buddhist practice.

Splitting/Forming: Splitting is when an alter splits a part of themselves off and creates a fragment, and/or alter. It is possible to split multiple alters at once. Forming is a term that a lot of Endo systems in our experience prefer. Personally we like to use the term when the alter didn’t split off from trauma, but both can be used interchangeably a lot of the time.

Fusion: This is when two or more alters fuse together and create a different alter that is not the same, but all of them at once in a sense (a good way to think of this, is if you put two things of playdoh together and mush it into one, it’s now both of those colors and together they make a new color! Both colors are still there, but they are now mixed together.) Also this is not the same thing as integration. Fusion isn’t always a good thing, and can be caused by traumatic events.

Integration: This is the process of Amnesia barriers lessening. This leads to better communication and less black outs and grey outs.

Blurry: Blurry is when you cannot tell who’s in front.

Blended: Multiple alters are blended together while in front. This can go hand and hand with being Blurry very easily.

Co-Con: This is usually when alters talk to each other outside the inner world! This describes one or more alter is in front, and one or more alters who are conscious, but are not fronting.

Co-Fronting: This is when two or more alters are fronting, but aren’t blended. A example would be: one alter can control the body, while one controls speaking.

Headspace: So some systems use this to describe that little area in your head where you and alters talk, but some use it to describe that and the innerworld.

Innerworld: This is a world internally that alters often go when they aren’t fronting. Not every alters can enter into the innerworld. It’s very common for host to not be able to enter, especially at the beginning. Some systems don’t even have innerworlds as well.

Alters/Headmates/Parts: These are the most common terms to describe different beings within one body. Alters is used most in Traumagenic spaces, while Headmate is very commonly used in Endogenic spaces. These terms can be used by all systems regardless of origin. (We personally feel most comfortable with alters, which is why we have been using it in this post.)

Switching: This is when alters switch who’s in front.

Anyway, that’s some basic terminology! If you, or anyone else would like more of this, feel free to use the ask box! We made it so you can be anonymous now!

-Anthy

Hi, I've seen that you give advice and I really need help.

I want to talk to my therapist about possibly being a system, but I'm not sure how to bring it up to her.

She already knows about my dissociation and I've mentioned not remembering a lot of past events, but I'm still not sure how to talk to her about this.

I'm aware of a few other.. voices? I don't want to call them alters until I get diagnosed, if I'm even a system - anyway, I'm aware of a few other "voices" that speak with me, have their own personalities, and help me through the day - especially times of high stress, anxiety, depression, etc. There are times where I'll feel like I'm not as in control, and one of the voices will be talking to me and helping me through things. This is usually when I'm close to a breakdown, panic attack, or in another stressful or severe situation.

I'm not sure if I have enough trauma to qualify for being a system, again if I even am one.

I don't have really many recent memory gaps, it's just large portions of my childhood mostly. There are some from a year or so ago, which I vaguely remember being a time of when I was in a toxic relationship. That might just be me trying to block that out, though.

Sometimes it'll also feel like I act differently depending on the situation or even just the day, and my thoughts can be really muddled.

I don't know, I'm really unsure about all this and don't know how to go about it.

Thank you so much in advance,

-🦇 anon

The way we brought it up to our therapist was by asking them if they knew what a plural system was, and because they responded positively and mentioned they'd worked with systems before, we felt safe enough to come out. We were lucky because our therapist was pro-endogenic systems and understood we didn't want final fusion. I recommend you ask your therapist about what she knows about systems and her views on how therapists should treat them if you can, and then if she responds in a way you want, then go ahead and tell her you think you're a system or at least share those experiences. If she doesn't and she wonders why you asked, maybe just say you have a friend who's a system or you've just gotten interested in the topic

There is no specific amount of trauma that qualifies for a traumagenic system. It's all about what your brain decided was too much and created a system to cope, so it never helps to compare trauma to other systems. Plus you don't need any trauma to be a system

i want to vent a little. If it's ok. Im a person with tulpa. Who was in tulpamancy-community for almost ten years, passively looking and reading many blogs. And it's bizzare for me how people see headmates/alters in DID/OSDD same as their source??? Like...

I just were in a community and did read, spoke with so many people with tulpas who are always so different from source! There was hosts with same character as a tulpa, and oh gosh how they were different and how much they did change (esp when you read blog pists like. Ten years old)! The only similarity always was name and looks (tho even these both changed for many).

And it's just so bizzare for me how many systems experience weird attention to certain fictives, because... Some people really do think they're same and related to source that much?..

Idk. In russian speaking community i don't really see trend of people expecting tulpas to be like sources, the opposite is the norm. Tulpas! The "i want to spoil and hug this character so i will create them from scratch".

Even there it's wide known fact that they're aren't their source. Heck, they sometimes even change identity to be completely sepatate from source, and even don't want to use tulpa labels. (the "i was there long before you forced and knew about tulpamancy" happens often.) And how wide-spread this experience is among OSDD and DID systems makes me kinda... Uh, feel weird? Like, im a crazy? Im i treating them as source and don't notice? Is there people who can't comprehend it, so many, and i never saw them? Uh... It's so confusing. Thank you for reading.

Hey, so this is Akira, Persona 5. I'm a source LOVING fictive, for me whenever people ask me about source things it's ridiculously affirming to my identity and who I am. I'm a traumagenic alter in a (P-)DID system, but I'm also a representation of our spiritual past life, so I'm also alterhuman in that way. I'm here to say, basically, every fictive is different. The tulpamancy community is very specifically focused on giving your tulpa agency and making sure they're not conforming to your expectations of them, and since they're being created over time with a base instead of appearing here (almost) all at once in one way or another, it only makes sense you'll find source separated tulpas all over the place. Our tulpa Badeline is the same, she's still herself but she's very different from source now. But if you look into the soulbonding community, you'll find it to be much more focused on fictives' sources and oftentimes how to handle living as a soulbond and grapple with your memories.

I've only been using spiritual sources as an example, but regardless of your origin, how connected you feel to your sourceself or source memories you are is your choice. I mean, otherkin and other alterhumans aren't hurting anyone by being connected to their source, so why should there be an assumption that it hurts us? It depends on the fictive. Our three golden rules are this: treat them like a person, don't ask questions that'd be invasive if it happened to the body, and go by their individual judgement for what's ok.

Okay. Lets start again from the beginning shall we?

For those of you who don't know me, I'm Red Cherry Rain, but you all can call me Cherry for short. I am the host of a traumagenic D.I.D. system that goes by the name of The Nightmare District. When I first created this tumblr it was out of retaliation to the Endo community on here. Some of the things said on this tumblr have been out of pocket and wrong of me to do and I do truly apologize to all the people I have hurt by my past posts. These posts weren't just sharing my views on the endo community but more attacking them for their beliefs. My own belief does still stand. But that being said, I will not continue to attack the endogenic community on this platform or any other platforms that I run. I am allowed to have my own rights and views on the endogenic topic but so can everyone else. Hence from here on out I will look at what endos send to me, but that being said I will share my own personal views on what is shared. For anyone who comes to me, I will share my opinion, but I will not try to force that opinion on anyone else. This is me agreeing to disagree on your views. Now what does this mean for future posts. For any post regarding Dissociative Identity Disorder I will continue to use plural tags on the platform, I will not use these tags to share hate, but to share my own life experiences with D.I.D. and how I live as a system. Hate is not a good thing to spread and can instead cause discourse among everyone on the platform, no matter which side you are on. I ask that the people doing so refrain from doing it anymore. If you do not like or agree with what I am posting you may leave your opinions, I will indeed read them. But with that, I will not change my style just to cater to one person. If you truly do just fully despise my content you may block me and move on with your life, I will not hold a grudge against you for it. Everyone's style in content creation is different, my community will find me and grow because of the people who enjoy my work. I will no longer kekw at endos, but much rather I will share my opinion and walk away. This page is not endo safe, but I will also not personally hunt you down, I will mention though that the majority of people in my discord though do share the same view on you as I do, proceed with caution. We will not attack you, but we may politely ask you to leave.

In regards to AspenFrostEN: I no longer wish to correspond with Aspen, I do wish to coexist peacefully with Aspen and the Entourage System. I personally do not agree with the route that Aspen has taken with her community and her content. I do not hate her, I am more disappointed with the way she is making systems look on every platform. For someone who promotes and stands for healing, she does not make it easy for anyone. As mentioned before, Aspen if you do happen to read this, you do have my discord and I do not mind speaking with you privately. But this does not give you any right to attack me and the rest of The Nightmare District, you have indeed indirectly done this twice on your tiktok page and we do not appreciate it. I have been asked and I will say it here, you may apologize and I will forgive you, but you have a lot to do to earn back my trust, especially with what you have done. My discord server is open to all who have dealt with Aspen and would like to share their story, open a ticket and my staff team will indeed get to you All in all I truly am sorry for everything I have done and this is my time to change, I do not expect to be forgiven, and I understand that for some that will be difficult to do, but I promise you all I am trying to change for the better. If anyone of you would indeed like to speak to me privately I do ask that you join my discord and open a ticket where I will gladly be of service to anyone who would like to speak to me privately. Thank you all for giving me a chance to explain. Below I will link my server for those who need it! Thank you.

Intro

Hello, This is our intro post!

We are Shark, a traumagenic + mixed origins system.

Bodily an adult + disabled

We are endo neutral, no set DNI.

We do not partake in any type of discourse, we are pro Palestine and support liberation for Palestine and Congo, however we will not be speaking on these issues any further than this statement as this is a system blog and we would like to keep it positive, that being said, if you can donate to support people in need please do.

We love sharks <3 (if it wasn't obvious) and we hate the stigma around them making them look like villains. Yes sharks can do bad things, so can cows, cows have more kills per year most years than sharks.

Alter intros + system info under the cut!

Host

Our host is Jinx!

She's a fictive from Arcane

She/they pronouns

Jinx has been our host for little over a year now, shes taken by someone in sys and while she is our host she will not be on this account for her and our safety.

Jinx is a holder for many problematic things, we may allow her to make a post if she wishes however we will not be letting her look at any comments or asks we get, we've discussed this with her and they've agreed this is the best course of action for her and her health.

Her sign off will be

- Jinx

Or

-💙☁️

Co-hosts

Our first co-host is Dottore 1

He is a fictive from genshin impact and brainmade

He/him pronouns

He's an organiser and gatekeeper

Dottore will be mainly overseeing this account, he may not post but if we get asks or comments he will be the one reviewing them.

His signoff is

-Dottore

Or

-🧪

Our second co-host is Breeze

Breeze is a fictive though does not talk about his source as he is not comfortable with people knowing

He/Him pronouns

Breeze is an anger and jealousy holder + other unknown roles

Breeze may post on this account about his own experiences or things he wishes to talk about, he is also the alter who manages our userbox account @sys-boxes-gatcha most posts made there will be him!

His sign offs are

-Breeze

Or

-🌾

System info

Collective name is Shark

We have alot of trauma that may or may not be referenced on this blog, we will never go into detail if we bring it up.

We are not a good person, don't think of us as some perfect being, we are very much a bad person and we are trying to be better and improve.

Please refer to our alters as "headmates" we don't own eachother and we all prefer being called eachothers headmates over being called the other alters or even parts

We are VERY queer, if you have an issue with this the door is over there

We hope this intro let you have an idea about who we are and what to expect on this blog, please feel free to ask questions about our system or anything else in our ask box!

End of post!

Okay-! I don’t know if i’m the only one who experiences this- I hope not 😭 But, communication with my headmates is easy, it’s fluid, it’s full on verbal conversations. But I’ve noticed that when talking to another headmate if i get a quick response, which is all of the time. The voice comes back sounding like my head voice? In a weird way, but also just by the vibes, tone of voice, slang, inflection in the way that alter speaks to me i automatically know it isn’t actually me talking, but their voice comes back as me, strangely. Which again, quick conversation and fast replies are 99% of our communication. It does make me doubt.. But then there’s that 0.1% of more, i wait for a response and get to actually hear their voice if i really tap in and listen. I don’t know- Maybe it’s just our system that works that way to make it easier to communicate?? I really have nooo clue 😭 Help 😭

our system personally doesn't work this way, so i'll get you a second opinion!!

systems, is this a phenomenon you experience or have heard of?

EDIT: extra note from anon -> "Note from the head voice? Anon: I also relateee heavily with the other anon who said they just kinda intuitively know what their headmate would say even if they didn’t talk? Something like that lol. Oftentimes, especially if the head mate isn’t present and i know they’re in headspace i’ll think? A thought, it’s basically me thinking about exactly what they would say, like just intuitively knowing what there exact responses would even if they are away from the front..;; Plz someone tell me that’s normal bro 😭 Any comment replies with similarities to our system would be appreciated 😭 Sorry this is such a long ask? Really more of a rant now but uhm- Yeah just wanted to share that and get it off my chest 😭- Host/Core (I know most people heavily dislike the word/term Core 😭 But it’s just, the truth? We are traumagenic btw-)"

[ID: STOP! this is a syscourse free blog! it is a safe space for all systems, so please go away if you intend upon stirring up drama!]

if you want a syscourse topic, i personally was thinking about the mental age thing.

it kinda gives me whiplash tbh as an autistic person with DID. mental age is considered pretty ableist in the context of autism, but is considered perfectly fine and normal in a DID context. at least, community wise.

Oooh this is really interesting.

I'll preface this by saying I am not autistic, so I won't speak on autistic experiences. I have several neurodivergencies, but just be aware that when I talk about that, I am not speaking for autistic people.

So, I think the entire concept of "mental age" is kinda nonsensical. No matter how you have developed, your brain is only as old as you are. Young kids can be forced to act more maturely than they should, and adults can act more immaturely than they should, but either way, your brain has the experience of however many years you've lived.

Alter age, however, is a little different, and I think people shouldn't use "mental age" in place of it. Again, your brain can only be one age, but due to different circumstances the brain can split into alters that behave more accordingly to a different age.

So, for example, Grey (a co-host in our system) is 18 in headspace, and when fronting he behaves like an 18 year old, but neurologically he is only as old as the body (16). So he only has 16 years of neurological development and experience, but he is able to, at least to an extent, emulate the behavior of somebody older than the body actually is. He formed because the situation we were in was seen by our brain as something that I could not handle, and felt it needed a more mature and capable figure in order to cope. Thus formed Grey, who was able to emulate the behavior of someone a couple years older than me. He acts older, and in most senses is older, but neurologically he still only has the development and experiences of the body's age. (I'm only speaking on trauma-formed alters because we're traumagenic btw, I don't know how it works for non-traumagenics and that's probably a whole other convo anyways, lol.)

The thing is, I totally see what you're saying with the term mental age being ableist thing. This is purely anecdotal, but I saw this from the outside. My younger brother has autism, and for a long time as a kid I was told that that meant he was "mentally younger" than other kids his age. That didn't make any sense scientifically, but even more importantly it just wasn't true. He is still as intelligent and capable as kids his age, he just processes and expresses those things differently. To say an autistic person is "mentally younger" implies that they have on a fundamental level a lesser ability to think and process things, which makes it seem like they shouldn't be listened to or that their experiences are less valid in some way.

Plus, acting in a way traditionally seen as "immature" does not always equate to impaired thought processes. This is also anecdotal, but I have ADHD, and when I was a young undiagnosed kid, I would often get overwhelmed by tasks or sensory experiences that I did not know how to handle. This would manifest in outbursts, even beyond the years that it was age-appropriate. This didn't mean that I was less capable of processing the emotions I was having, or that I was not able to think as critically about them as others my age, because I absolutely was. I just processed them in a different way that my peers. (That's not to say that outbursts are a good coping mechanism, lol. That's just how my child brain decided to express what it was experiencing.)

All that to say, alter age and mental age are two diff things, and I don't think mental age should be used at all, especially when it's being used to mean alter age. Mental age implies that somebody has the development and experiences of a differently aged brain, whereas alter age helps to more specifically speak about the age a specific alter emulates or behaves as. Plus this also kinds goes into system responsibility/accountability, where to an extent alter age can affect their behaviors and responsibility for said behaviors, but that should not excuse unexcusable behaviors based on neurological age.

Sorry for how long this got lol. I ended up having a lot more thoughts than originally planned :) thank you for the ask!! <3

I'm confused, how did you form almost all your system after you were already an adult?

I think what happened for us was a bad childhood planted the seeds of a traumagenic system, and then adulthood stress allowed it to sprout, so to speak.

There’s a few of us that we can recognize from before our syscovery, so it’s likely we’ve been a system for a while but just didn’t know. But it was only recently, due to stress and due to having more knowledge on what a system is, that our system was able to bloom and headmates were able to properly separate themselves from each other and find individuality. So some of us were likely around for much longer, but the split date is when they officially realized they were a separate entity, since that’s the only date we can be certain of. Anything prior to that would be speculation, and our overall memory is very poor so we can’t remember how far back a headmate might have existed.

Since we share memories (albeit poorly, but it’s not like a “wall” between us at least), it wasn’t obvious that something was amiss our whole life. We’d always felt a disconnect to my birth name, we used an alias online and assumed that was because “don’t share personal info online!” Turns out we’re trans and plural so there’s multiple reasons for not wanting to use my birth name, but still, we didn’t consider the reason for that disconnect might be “Oh, I’m not the person who was here an hour ago,” since we didn’t even know that was possible. Plurality isn’t very well represented. It was only after someone close to us realized they were a system, thus allowing us to learn about systems, that we were able to recognize what was going on.

As for getting new headmates, once a system forms it seems to keep splitting, in many cases. Our system tends to follow certain patterns when splitting. Imagine our plurality like a tree; some of our headmates are twigs sprouting off of the same major branch. Similar personality traits means similar roles in the system, so it’s likely our brain looked at them and was like, “Ah that’s like that other guy we have, so that’ll be useful to have in our brain.”

So in a way, it’s like “branching out” from a handful of traits our brain deemed useful for survival. And then, of course, as circumstances change, different traits become useful to your survival, so even that pattern may not stay consistent.

Of course, we can only speak to our own experiences, but that’s how we understand our plurality. I don’t know how different this would be for non-traumagenic systems. (We’d love to hear the experiences of other plurals of any type, if people are comfortable sharing!)

-Emyr (he/it)

Since you have some introjects- do any of you have/had source-memories/connections when you first came to be? How was that experience when you, well aren't in the same place anymore? We are currently struggling with how to inform our introjects that, they are 'in our headspace' and not in their source anymore and wonder i you have any tips?

just want to start off with the disclaimer... we're a traumagenic system and can only speak from that lens. so sorry if not everything i say can particularly apply to you. and sorry for the likely long response. i like talking about these things. :)

we do deal with this from time to time, but it has happened for both introjects and non-introjects. in our system, at least, all of us are capable of experiencing source-memories/pseudomemories regardless of that status .

but i won't lie, it hasn't ever grown to be too big of an issue for any of us. we personally split/form with the awareness and memories that we are apart of the system, so we have never had to be informed or coaxed through the idea of it. but we've still had alters struggle a little to accept that fact, so i'll try to share some experience with that.

i know i miss my brothers; i might find myself enjoying something or dealing with someone, only to feel a sort of grief that i can no longer tell them about it later. but i am here for a reason, and my sense of responsibility often outweighs my emotions. i have priorities to assist our system and, typically, it leaves no room for that grief. but i know that that isn't the same for everyone else. it's just common in our system.

for those of us who didn't feel that way, we found that interaction with others, fronting/adjusting to their surroundings, and trying out new things helped. if possible, they've also gone places or bought things that might remind them of themselves or their homes.

just recently i bought a little indoor plant to take care of-- it comforts me to do so as it reminds me of my pseudomemories, in which i grew herbs and other plants. and it helped to remind me that "not all is lost", and i can still take part in some of the things i enjoyed most. a plant may not be enough to replace my brothers, of course, but it's a little way to connect to my roots, no pun intended. ;)

i know it is not the same for every collective, but we generally have strong bonds with one another. forming new friendships with those you're sort-of stuck with seems to have always helped us to adjust and start to value the life we are now apart of. but i'm sure that isn't the case for everyone, and that's fine.

-holly

u have a v distinct way of doing things and i am v aware of it so i play by ur methods. i will take this excessively diplomatically so no one can possibly misconstrue my words

i made the original post ab this whole thing. in spite of having been labeled as anti endo (and a singlet for some reason) i’m not rly. i have been involved in the plural community long before my DID dx and my last bf was a veritbonder. i have seen the endo community from the inside and don’t have issues w it.

my problem is the disingenuous nature of many syscoursers, and you are not excluded from this. i could do the same thing as you have done and explain why i think PNES should just be called regular seizures and they’re exactly the same now. there are many sources where they have been called seizures for years and years. but language changes, and i know you know this. it is one of your whole arguments as to why you are for the use of tulpa. to you, that word means something different than its origins.

to me, as a bodily semiverbal person, these terms mean something different. these words have evolved within the community that they were applied to. the system community, both endogenic and traumagenic, is dissociated (ha) from the semi/nonverbal community at large. you don’t know how we use these words because you literally do not participate in our community or culture. just like someone who commented on one of your other posts said, this is exactly like when verbal autistics who lose speech insist that saying “go nonverbal” doesn’t hurt nonverbal people.

as i said in my original post, and yet people somehow become unable to read for one sentence, if one headmate fronts for a significant amount of time that you could be considered semiverbal as one body, then you can do that. you are very disingenuous with your “bodily experiences” post, even though i am very sure you understand what people mean by that. my entire body regardless of any headmate fronting will always be semiverbal or nonverbal as my brain damage progresses. i use these words to tell people that as a body i cannot speak how you speak. if i had some headmates that couldn’t talk i would just say that. those specific ones can’t talk. my body is verbal overall.

if you go into our communities, we will hear you say “i am nonverbal” and will assume that your body does not and cannot speak. we will defer to you and seek to uplift your voice as one of the most disabled members of our society. our community is based around intersectionality and understanding that there are people more disabled than you. it is the job of verbal people to listen to me, and it is my job to listen to nonverbal people.

if you use these terms just for yourself. just between you and your therapist. between you and your friends. then no, it doesn’t matter. it was never about that. it is about the community and community implications of people who are objectively less disabled taking a word for people who are more so.

headmates can be people, they can do that, but a single body exists. you can’t just ignore that. i don’t become white when my white headmate fronts. i don’t gain the ability to walk unaided when abled headmates front. i don’t become less disabled in any way. i don’t become verbal.

and if you want to counter with abled systems can have alters that can’t walk, because i know you just want to, we don’t call it paralysis. we call it functional, somatic, or psychogenic paralysis. it works differently in the body just the same. you can’t insert yourself into semi/nonverbal spaces any more than you can insert yourself into a SCI support group.

i could do the same thing as you have done and explain why i think PNES should just be called regular seizures and they’re exactly the same now. there are many sources where they have been called seizures for years and years. but language changes, and i know you know this.

I'm already lost...

Is there some sort of discourse claiming that you can't call psychogenic non-epileptic seizures... seizures?

and if you want to counter with abled systems can have alters that can’t walk, because i know you just want to, we don’t call it paralysis. we call it functional, somatic, or psychogenic paralysis.

Or that psychogenic paralysis isn't a valid type of paralysis?

The cause may be different, but there are a ton of different causes for various conditions.

Someone blinded by an eye disease is blind. Someone blinded by their eyes being physically damaged is blind. Someone who experiences psychogenic blindness is blind.

Likewise, psychogenic paralysis IS paralysis. And a psychogenic non-epileptic seizure IS a seizure. You can add a qualifier to that... but it's not necessary.

if you go into our communities, we will hear you say “i am nonverbal” and will assume that your body does not and cannot speak.

That could be a fair assumption with no context. Although I... frankly doubt this happens often, or is a mistake that lasts long without being corrected.

If someone hears me say "I'm a cis woman" without context, I'm sure they would wrongfully assume I mean that the body is AFAB.

Obviously, it's important to try to mitigate miscommunications like these. But I assume that if you're dealing with a system with nonverbal headmates, you'll realize shortly the error. Unless that nonverbal headmate is the host or is otherwise fronting all or most of the time, in which case... maybe the miscommunication isn't as important as you think it is. 🤷‍♀️

our community is based around intersectionality and understanding that there are people more disabled than you. it is the job of verbal people to listen to me, and it is my job to listen to nonverbal people.

And this, I think is a mistake. At least when taken to the extremes I see here.

First... I'm really not comfortable with the idea of "more disabled" here. Sure, you can kind of apply this in specific contexts to try to say recurrent symptoms aren't as bad because they don't happen as often... but having your legs randomly give out while crossing the street might be more harmful than being a fulltime wheelchair user who wouldn't have been in that situation.

I'm also not comfortable with this thought in this specific case as it suggests that the nonverbal singlet is "more disabled" than the traumagenic DID system with severe memory loss and c-PTSD who has nonverbal headmates, and therefore gets a right to police their terms.

But let's say for the sake of argument this has merit and DID systems with nonverbal headmates are "less disabled" than nonverbal singlets:

Yes, you should absolutely listen to people with disabilities. Especially severe ones. But...

Dysphoric transgender people are technically more disabled (in that specific context) than non-dysphoric ones.

The same logic you're using could just as easily be used to support transmedicalists over non-dysphoric transgender people. Actually, the same logic HAS been used this way. Repeatedly. It's one of the main talking points employed by transmeds to garner sympathy.

There HAS to be more critical thought put into these issues than just "listen to the most disabled people in the room," which in this context really feels more like "accept what the most vocal members of a group say on a given platform without question."

This is also the logic sysmeds use against endogenic and non-disordered systems.

"We're disabled trauma survivors, so therefore you're supposed to listen to us when we claim this other marginalized group of people aren't real and their experiences aren't valid, and they aren't allowed to use terms we claim are ours regardless of whether those terms originally were or not. If you disagree with us then you're ableist."

We cannot afford to normalize this sort of exclusionism and gatekeeping.

Traumagenic system here!! This is a genuine question, not meant to be a jab or anything!! We are fairly new to the online side of plurality, and often see servers or blogs either not welcome endogenic [?] systems, or they will ask YOU if you support them and if you do you arent welcome. My response has been that we will support them IF there is legitimate sources backing the possibility of their exsistance, simply because 1, that is true we will and 2, because we dont know much about them? NOW THE QUESTION!! um do you have any source that is backed where we could read about other types of systems that ARENT traumagenic? we saw people say there ARE these sources, so we genuinely would love to read them and were wondering if you have any!!

not many as of yet, though there’s a study aiming for 2024 completion that is examining multiplicity without trauma in young people. we’re excited to view the results of this study! there’s also this one interesting and legitimate article on paromancy (called tulpamancy in the study) by samuel vessiere. oh, and this study on writers, exploring how oftentimes writers’ characters will act as independent agents in their own minds (so basically plurality without trauma).

endogenic plurality hasn’t really been studied all that much. a big reason why we think that is, is because for many (if not most) nontraumagenic systems, their plurality is a metaphysical, imagined, or spiritual experience. and these things really cannot be proved by science. lots of people may claim to have loads of research proving endogenic systems exist, but once you get into the articles, it seems like most of those papers either already assume endogenic plurality exists without proving it, or claim to have proof backed with poor research. so those three papers right now are the only academic studies we have that we’re confident in.

does that mean these folks are lying about their experience, or that they’re not actually plural or multiple? absolutely not. what it does mean, is that those who say “i won’t believe you until there’s scientific proof you exist” will likely be waiting forever, all the while dismissing and disrespecting their fellow systems who experience plurality in a different way.

for lots of people, merely having imaginary friends makes them feel plural. others liken their headmates to spirits, ghosts, or deities.

will science ever prove that imaginary friends, ghosts, spirits, or gods exist? likely not. does that make it okay to disregard those who are religious, or who have active imaginations? not really.

this is why we believe fully in endogenic plurality without much research proving it exists. if someone tells us they’re plural, we believe them. folks just existing as they are doesn’t really harm anyone, least of which traumatized systems like us.

those who attack traumagenic systems, or who purposefully spread false information, however, are a different story. for the most part, though, endogenic systems do not behave this way. there are a few loud voices in endogenic spaces which are harmful, but these individuals do not speak for the endogenic community as a whole, even if they think they do.

something that i remember hearing from our therapist that i’d like to pass on is:

you shouldn’t have to understand others in order to treat them with decency and respect. as a white system, we will never be able to understand what it’s like to be a person of color. as a traumagenic system, we will never be able to understand what it’s like to be endogenic. that doesn’t give us an excuse to be unkind or disrespectful, or to dismiss those who aren’t the same as us. it’s still on us to treat people with kindness and respect, even and especially if they experience the world in ways we will never understand.

hope this helps. sorry it was so long.

🐢 kip and 👻 ghost