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distort-opia · 1 year

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Hi! I know this is going to sound weird. Would you like to create something like a cheat sheet against attacks batjokes antis (co-authored or maybe it's more convenient for you to work alone)? I often see batjokes newcomers being bullied massively on any platform, especially if they are just getting acquainted with comics and can't navigate them like lightning. For example, they do not know that if you give an example of alternative universes, these batjokes relations are devalued and are not considered canon. They don't know what to say when an opponent says that Bruce has no feelings for the Joker (for example, the same understanding, some sympathy), except hatred and a desire to kill. I don't like conflicts, and often I can just block a person if he himself comes to me and tries to impose on me that my picture is wrong. But I see other people's desire to discuss, to defend what they like. Especially newcomers, because no one has sown a grain of doubt in them yet (and, to be honest, one of the reasons why I am writing to you is just the unwillingness for this spark of obsession with batjokes to go out in them). So I thought maybe this ship needs one collection of counterarguments? For example, the argument "batjokes is not a canon, because it has never been in the main wounds", the counterargument "a list of the main runs and a brief explanation of what is happening", Or, for example, the argument "saving the Joker is exclusively a code", the counterargument "examples with Bruce's desire to fix the Joker or just understanding him, the similarity of their destinies, sympathy." In general, the list here is large. I have been thinking about such a cheat sheet for a long time, but I am not a native speaker and often have problems with objectivity. For example, I often see arguments along the lines of "The Joker doesn't like Batman, flirting is to unsettle him." Will it be a counterargument that the Joker talks about loving Batman, even when no one is around, when there is no one to mislead (Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #106)? Or, for example, would it be an argument in defense of the fact that it's not about the code and Bruce needs the Joker vitally, a mention of the transmitter that was in the Joker's pocket and which only had to be searched for before resurrecting him (Legends of the Dark Knight #144-145). The Joker wasn't dying by Batman's hand. The code is not broken. At the same time, Bruce says that the only reason is that he had no choice, he had to find Ra's al Ghul, but in fact the choice was: to act like a detective and find clues, the same transmitter. In general, it is difficult. I love your analysis of comics. It seems to me that there is no more objective view of what is happening in the fandom, and if the cheat sheet came out from under whose hand, it would be from under yours. But I don't want to impose myself, after all, such a collection requires a lot of time and effort. So don't worry if you're not interested.

Hi! No worries, I don't mind the message. It's nice of you to want something like this for new fans so as to help them not lose their interest in the ship. Unfortunately, I really don't think I have the time to create an Excel sheet of the scale you're suggesting. I do intend to create a masterpost of the more common Batjokes questions I get and my meta, which are all based on comics. Perhaps that post could serve as help for those interested in backing up their canon arguments of Batjokes. I'll try to tag you when I get around to it.

However... [deep sigh] alright, I can't help elaborating a bit. I understand the feeling of indignation and the need to defend the ship when attacked, especially if you are new to it. And I imagine you're talking about platforms like Twitter and TikTok especially, where the kind of anti-Batjokes stance you're describing is a lot more rampant. But personally, I find the idea of fighting and arguing with these people utterly exhausting. No one needs to prove the basis of their ship with receipts, argue for its existence in comics in excruciating detail. Hell, shipping doesn't need canon support. Fandom is transformative, and this recent approach to shipping where people fight and argue over what's more "canon" is hard to understand, to me. Not to mention how nonsensical this morality-based approach to characters and shipping is.

Being in fandom is not supposed to be a fight. You're not supposed to come from what's likely a stressful real life and then stress some more arguing on the internet with strangers over a fictional ship and fictional characters. The vast majority of the time, these antis are quite young too-- teenagers deadset on hating on any kind of "toxic" or "problematic" ship. Presenting them with logical arguments based on canon isn't going to do much. I've seen it happen more than once; Batjokes fans bringing in real support to their arguments which then got willfully misunderstood or mocked, in the absence of a counterargument. Antis are not looking to be convinced, they're not looking to understand the ship they're attacking. They're looking to raise themselves in the eyes of other antis by virtue-signalling, and to get satisfaction from asserting their perceived moral superiority over others. These are wholly emotional goals, and the chance of bringing rational arguments to someone who's driven by this kind of motivation and changing their mind is small (and not worth the time and stress of putting yourself through it).

My opinion is that the best way to deal with these people is to block them and not engage. What they want is attention, and witnessing the distress of the fans they are attacking. Not giving them the platform and the attention they want is for the best. I'm not saying not to engage in any sort of debate or discussion about comics as long as it's polite and not ill-intentioned, I've done it myself and I quite like having talks of the sort. But it's right there in the name; antis literally define themselves by a thing they hate. Reason is clearly not what they're looking for.

Thank you so much for the kinds words, though! I'm glad you enjoy my analyses and my blog <3

#asks #fandom negativity #long post

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fractualized · 2 years

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Got tagged by the fabulous @distort-opia! Picking a fifth fave fic was hard, but here's what I landed on:

- On the Mend (Free John Doe Part 1, rated Teen and Up) - Backstitch (Free John Doe Part 2, rated Explicit) I hadn't written fic for 5 years when I played Enemy Within. I started a one-shot when Episode 4 came out, but when Episode 5 emotionally crushed me, it got me thinking about the kind of life John could have had if he stayed within the bounds of the law, if he had the opportunity to actually learn how he wanted to live his life and to have Bruce be a part of it. I pictured John being the lead of a colorful variety show in some run-down club and finally getting a kiss from his beloved buddy. And I could have done it as an AU where Enemy Within didn't happen, or a flash-forward set years later, but I felt so attached to John as he is that I *really, really* wanted that scene to happen in canon, and I wanted it to feel plausible and earned. So over the next 2 years I wrote 212k words. I still need to finish editing it, but I'm pretty proud I saw it through. :)

- Another Version of the Truth (rated Teen and Up) AVotT was a way for me to skip to Bruce and John being cute as hell while plodding through OtM and Backstitch, and I'll admit I'm sometimes a little :\ that it's more popular than those two. But I get it! It's got the Pact acting more like a semi-functional family, it's got Bruce freely being fluffy as heck with John, it's got loads of silliness— uh, until it doesn't. Oh ho, it's all fun and games until the author's angst instincts kick in!

- Give and Take (rated Explicit) I'd written comicsy batjokes darkfic before and was looking for a regular old batjokes idea to take hold, and suddenly a Discord conversation about financial domination kink turned into a speedrun of classic batjokes tropes (and not so much findom). Each plot point flowed so easily into another that I cranked this out in a couple weeks. Why can't that happen more often? x_x

- A Man Possessed (rated Explicit) This is one where I happily flash-forwarded to a postcanon John who managed to get re-released from Arkham because handwavey flibbaflabbum. The idea sprouted from another Discord conversation about incorporating lexjokes into the Telltale universe, and in my head it went from jokey flirting to full relationship drama. John doesn't cheat, but he sure came close with the chemistry he turned out to have with Telltale Luthor and how much fun I was having cutting Bruce down a peg. And then there's rough semi-public make-up sex! (though I sometimes still think about a sexy angsty cheating dramafest don't judge me)

As for my WIP list... oh boy. I haven't posted links to my own darkfic (noncon, etc) on here, and none made the above list, but hey, I’ll discuss the Bad Times WIPs if anyone wants to hear about them. Although picking them out is like half lottery since the word "dark" is missing from most of them. The silliest sounding one is probably the worst!

Even after some curation, the list is still way too long.

I'll just be tagging @fordarkisthesuede and @mystrothedefender, if they want to join in, but anyone else who'd like to should feel free!

#telltale batman #batjokes #fanfic #my fic #WIPs #challenge

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icedgarlic · 2 years

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Been going through the entire BatJokes Ao3 tag for two part few weeks (we’re making amazing progress, we’re only on page 4 XD) and I have a few fics I kept track of. You might like them. Or you might wonder why I would think these were good lol:

All Jokes Aside — notandysamberg

Joker taking up a job offer at Wayne Enterprises in hopes of stealing from Bruce. Except there might be a slight problem when his feelings get in the way…

A nice long fic to read with some fun characterizations. Probably my favorite BatJokes fic so far. Also it comes with some Harley/Ivy. Do take a look at the tags for any triggers, and the one trigger not tagged is panic attacks.

An Asylum For All of Us — kowaiyoukai

Bruce is sent to Arkham Asylum, where his only ally may be his greatest enemy.

A fic that dives more into the interactions between the two characters rather than a more romantic side. This fic is based in Nolanverse, which is important to know because of a couple of the detailed descriptions about Joker’s scars. Also deals with hallucinations and unreality.

And on the Wall, Tekel — etothepii

Fighting in the rain causes Joker’s makeup to wash away, and Batman becomes entranced with Joker’s beauty.

Once again, it’s based in Nolanverse and describes the scars. The fic is pretty old and has no warnings tagged, so the major trigger in it are the homophobic undertones.

OMGG TYYY you're amazingg I'll definitely check these out they sound great

#tysmmmm #batman #batjokes

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gothamsfinestdummy · 2 years

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I’m always so worried about being open about shipping Batjokes (or even liking Joker as a character) to most people outside of the community because a part of me is actually scared that I’ll be attacked or judged.

I always feel like I have to have an argument prepared but I feel like I’m constantly fumbling with notes like “here’s this comic and this comic, or here’s this game and this game!”

It’s also why I’m so hesitant about posting about and tagging other communities here because I’m worried that people will be interested by one post, go to my blog, and see all of the Batjokes and think “what the hell. Pro shipper.” That terrifies me and I know it shouldn’t.

H e l p.

#the joker #batman #batjokes #banging my head against the wall #shivering in me timbers #I’m also half expecting the asks or private messages telling me to kill myself to come in #because apparently there are some blogs centered around this that get those?

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celibate-batjokes-mpreg-yaoi-911 · 1 year

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why didn't you tag that lotto ticket post as batjokes...it would have made it funnier because it would imply that the joker spends so much on lotto tickets that even bruce wayne goes into debt trying to pay it off.

this is so funny im chortling

#ask

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ao3feed-brucewayne · 11 months

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Joker stops villianry because hes bored?! NOT CLICKBAIT!!!

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/bXJuU1q

by MrMcHomo

Literally why has no one done this before?! I loves Batman and I loves Batjoke even MORE. Combine that with Steddie and I’m the happiest guy on the planet:3. One-shot for now, might write more drabbles if I feel silly enough.

Words: 1253, Chapters: 1/1, Language: English

Fandoms: Stranger Things (TV 2016)

Rating: Not Rated

Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings

Categories: M/M

Characters: Steve Harrington, Eddie Munson, Dustin Henderson, Jim "Chief" Hopper, Batman, Joker

Relationships: Batman/Joker, Steve Harrington & Dustin Henderson, Steve Harrington & Jim "Chief" Hopper

Additional Tags: Batman!Steve, Joker!Eddie, Brothers Steve and Dustin, Eddies a silly goose, Johnathan Byers slander

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/bXJuU1q

#IFTTT #bruce wayne #batman #the dark knight #the cape crusader #gotham #dc universe #ao3 #ao3feed

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forevercloudnine · 2 years

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Hi! Out of curiosity, what attracts you to Riddlebat as a ship? Is it your favorite Bruce-centric ship (since you seem to like others too)? I've followed you recently and it's been really interesting, getting glimpses of Riddlebat here and there, so I'd love to hear more about why it's appealing to you -- since I enjoy your tags a lot as well. I hope this isn't too forward, feel free to ignore the ask if it is!

💗 Thank you!!! As a rule I pretty much enjoy all Bruce/villain pairings, but Riddlebat is definitely one of my favorites. I see it described sometimes as “less toxic Batjokes” (’sometimes’ in this case meaning ‘yesterday’), but I think that’s probably a disservice to the dynamics of both pairings. Riddlebat is “less toxic” in that Edward has never successfully murdered one of Bruce’s children and likely has a lower overall body count (though not for lack of trying, depending on the continuity), but Edward is still a criminal whose obsession with Batman is harmful to himself, Bruce, and everyone else around them.

Edward’s interest is also not a toned down version of Joker’s interest-- whereas Edward often wants to “solve” Batman and learn his real identity, Joker sees Batman AS the real identity, case closed. While Joker thrills for the climax of having a hands-on battle with Batman at the end of his schemes, Edward loves leaving riddles for Batman to solve but dreads the physical beatdown at the end. And though Joker certainly can and does get jealous of other demands on Batman’s time, ultimately he HAS Bruce’s attention in all the ways he’s asking for-- “to hit me, to bleed me, to tell me I’m a horror,” etc. Edward doesn’t want to be hit, definitely doesn’t want to be bled, and would much prefer Batman to tell him he’s impressive and intelligent. He’s often motivated by a pathological desire for attention he feels only Batman can satisfy, but unlike Joker, Bruce is by and large NOT giving Edward the attention he wants. Batman insults him, cheats at his games, and inflicts grievous physical harm. But he still compulsively and inevitably leaves Batman clues leading to his location, because even negative attention is better than NO attention, right?

(General panel collection that I didn’t want to put above the read-more and clog up peoples dashboards. Also, the line “No one could want a beating like that” from Edward’s psychiatrist is very funny to me, because actually I can think of at least one clown who probably would have enjoyed it.)

So basically what I enjoy about Riddlebat is that it’s kind of... inherently really depressing for Edward? Since unlike how Bruce and Joker view themselves as equal opposites, Bruce really does not reciprocate Edward’s delusion that the two of them are utterly unique intellectual equals (or, in some continuities, that Bruce is the closest thing that Edward’s “unmatched intellect” can have to an equal), and is never going to obsess over Edward on any level equivalent to the way that Edward obsesses over him.

On the other hand, Edward's willingness to play at civility so long as he’s getting what he wants (to the point that reforming or pretending to reform has been a reoccurring plot point for him even within the first decade of his existence as a character) means that he often does have friendlier interactions with Batman than Bruce has with most of his rogue’s gallery. But Bruce is both very mission-focused and extremely paranoid, so his “friendly” tends to be other people’s “actively hostile.” I think the most supportive he’s ever been of one of Riddler’s reforms was when he as Bruce Wayne paid PI Riddler to solve a case that he’d already solved as Batman, which allowed Edward to buy a townhouse he’d been wanting (though of course he phrases his motivations as insultingly as possible when explaining them to Tim while they watch Edward through his window).

But despite Bruce’s statement that “the more content the rat, the less likely he’ll leave his hole” (which is forever one of my favorite quotes from him, it’s so funny), he’s pretty much only willing to do the absolute bare minimum to keep Edward content, if that. In terms of compatibility, I think there’s probably a reason that Bruce tends to gravitate towards someone as independent as Selina-- it seems unlikely that Bruce ever would or could give Edward the amount of attention he wants. At least without retiring, which he’s pathologically incapable of doing.

Obviously in fanworks Edward can get a happier ending to his relationship with Batman (and I have both engaged with and created that content), but what originally appealed to me about the pairing and what still appeals to me now is Edward’s one-sided need for attention, and the parallel of them both being obsessively compelled towards self-destructive behavior. The fact that they have repeatedly proven themselves capable of getting along as a result of their mutual pragmatism just makes the dynamic even more interesting.

#riddlebat #edward nygma #riddler #bruce wayne #realizing now that i didn't use any panels from 'run riddler run.' even though it has examples of pretty much everything i talked about #plus also touches on the element of edward feeling like his mind games are actually bettering bruce intellectually #which to some extent is provably true. since there are definitely canon examples of bruce having learned something specifically for edward #also there's the fact that though edward is definitely provably wrong about him and batman being. like. the smartest people on the planet #their brains are definitely running on the same wavelength given how bruce is always able to follow edward's insane internal logic #anyway. ALL of this being said.#riddlebat is not my favorite bruce ship. that's definitely scarebat #but there is more riddlebat content out there for me to reblog so that's what shows up here #i feel like my icon probably suggests to people that this is like. A Riddlebat Blog #but i have the batman forever logo as my icon primarily because it's my favorite batman movie #and i named this blog after it #which in retrospect is pretty esoteric. probably could have chosen a more obvious batman reference to stick in front of 'cloud nine'#but it's my brand now and i have no intention of switching gears so here we are

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trans-edward-nygma · 2 years

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TellTale Batman game

(First off, Yay back online after 3/4 days)

I have been very curious about the TellTale games recently, more specifically the Batman one. I have never been fond of the art style or the character designs so I have never really given the game a chance.

To be honest I have mainly been avoiding it because I saw a cutscene that had Bruce Wayne and Oswald Cobblepot in it and I absolutely hated Penguins design, nothing about him screamed Penguin and he looked more like a henchmen that Oswald Cobblepot would employ rather then the Penguin himself.

I have also seen a lot of people (Mainly here on tumblr) use this game as their main reason for shipping BatJokes (Batman x Joker) and from the cutscenes I have watched I can understand why. Actually at least for me when you type Telltale B into the tags list is evidently shows up with Batjokes.

I just wanted to ask.....is the game actually any good? No one really talks about it and I here more people talking about the Walking Dead games that were made by the same company (Was it walking dead? I know it was zombies)

Any personal opinions you may have on the game are appreciated

Thank you

#telltale batman #telltale batjokes #telltale games #batjokes #batman #oswald cobblepot

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randumbfandumbs · 7 years

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Alfred Headcanons

Alfred likes to hum as he works, but only if he’s alone.

He sometimes pauses whilst dusting/cleaning when his eyes catch the portrait of Bruce with his parents.

He often smiles at the portrait.

When he feels lonely, he talks to the portrait.

Sometimes when Bruce is gone for too long, and Alfred doesn’t have a good feeling about it, he falls sick.

But when Bruce returns, he doesn’t let it show that he’s ill.

Sometimes when he’s alone (well, mostly), he apologizes to Bruce’s parents for not raising Bruce well.

When he has to stitch Bruce up, he doesn’t complain in front of Bruce, but then when he’s behind doors he breaks down and cries. Every. Time.

The one thing he’s very fond of is taking care of the plants outside the mansion. He trims them, waters them, and gently caresses them because plants have feelings too. (Ivy would be proud lol)

Alfred watches horror movies with a poker face

Bruce goes without eating for days. Whenever that happens, Alfred also starves himself.

Alfred admires Sebastian Michaelis

#READTAGS #because he's so underrated #he deserves more love #why am i so lame #i love #alfred pennyworth #batman #lego batman #alfred headcanons #butler #lame #please check out my previous batjokes hc?#if you reblog #add tags!

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adhdslugcrimes · 4 years

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I'm I making this for likes? No, no, no, I just wanted an excuse not to write even though I've been putting it off for awhile,,, procrastinating on key 💅 I'll get on it

My ships for Batfam X3

Bruce-

Batjoke, it lives up to its name I ship it out of a joke and Lego Batman only.

Superbat, what do you mean Batman vs Superman wasn't just a lovers fighting over some dude and their bi gal pal stop them? I'm pretty sure that was the whole movie.

Batcat, Damian loves his new mommy she came with cats, now he's crying because he doesn't have enough hands to pet them! (Otp) and yes Bruce bottoms don't @ me (but if y'all got Bruce pegging fic please share 🥺👉👈)

In conclusion, he a pillow princess. Next!

Dick-

Roydick, it's like that long lost cousin that you don't really know but kinda likes. Redhead #4.

Koridick, all I got to say is flirty Kori is life, Tokyo, and I prefer her with Raven but they cute. Redhead #3.

Dickbarb, their ship name sounds as painful as the ship is. Perfect. Redhead #2. But Barb's and Kara tho 😤 and canary bro-

Birdflash, do I need to talk about this? I have a deplorable Birdflash addiction tag and doing headcanons for a YEAR! first ship, here until I die. Redhead #1. (Otp)

In conclusion, Dick has a deplorable redhead addiction to my Birdflash addiction. Next!

Jason-

Royjaykori, two redheads? One buff bottom? Yes please~

Royjay, MY DRUG, jay def a good boyfriend and father okay 🥺 (otp)

In conclusion, he might be tol and buff but this man is a power bottom.

Tim-

Timkonbart, two idiots with an insomniac birdie hell yeah, tiny birdie needs his boyfriends. (Otp)

In conclusion, the height difference just makes stealing hoodies and get sweater paws.

Steph and cass-

With each other, they fight for who's topping and bacon waffles are def their meal.

Duke-

Ace, he just vibin' with his family and friends because a friend's idea just fits him tbh and I love it.

In conclusion, burger before bros tho

Barbara-

Barbskara, I don't think I need to explain why it's cute. (Otp)

Barbcanary, idk I saw one pic and it was so cute-

In conclusion, bi queen💅

Damian-

DamiJon, just yes, okay yes, this boy is definitely not whipped for his Super nor planned for the wedding bish. (Otp)

Damicolin, it's cute okay 🥺 Colin is never talked about either like not really,,,

#batcat #batjaoke #superbat #roydick #dickbarbs #koridick #Birdflash #royjaykori #royjay #timkonbart #stephcass #duke x cheeseburger #barbskara #barbcanary #damijon #damicolin #i go back to writing now 🥺

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distort-opia · 2 years

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Heya!! It’s me again, lol.

I’m curious (so I’m just gonna throw these questions at you); are there any changes or directions you would like to see regarding Batman, Joker, and/or Batjokes in the mainline comics?

What are some aspects about Batman and Joker that you feel are ignored or neglected by writers, if at all? (Is that even a reasonable question to ask? I’m always so worried I’m missing the point. These characters are so complex, which is great, that’s a reason why I love them, but the complexity muddles my brain at times and I’m not sure of what questions to ask and if they are valid in the first place).

Actually! That’s a perfect transition to this:

When writing Batman and Joker, what are some key things to consider regarding their individual traits and of their relationship?

I’m so sorry for the interview-esque ask. Not trying to shove questions down your throat! I hope that you’re doing well, please take care.

Hey!! First of all, thank you for the ask, and for all the kind words you always leave in my tags. I'm baffled at the support and I'm really glad you enjoy my rambles. All the love to you <3

Since these are three questions, my answer did end up long, so I will put it under the cut.

As to the first question... uh. That's complicated, I guess. I am quite disillusioned with DC as a whole, so even though I have specific storylines I would like to see, I wouldn't trust them to get them right. However, to be fair, it's not entirely their fault. It's the nature of the medium too. I might want to see a story in which Bruce actually and genuinely gets to heal from his trauma, but that will never be the end. Batman's too popular for that. Like Sysiphus, he'll have to exist again and again, in countless versions and universes. He'll be reinvented and revived until there's no more interest, probably -- and it's the same with Joker. That said, there are stories I would like to see. I feel like Batman Who Laughs was such a missed opportunity for a genuinely cool psychological story, for instance. That whole chemical thing was a cop-out, when we could've gotten Bruce killing someone either by accident or by losing control in some way (sort of like TWOJAR but without anyone stopping him and with more... in-character circumstances). Then, it would've been so interesting to see Bruce's psyche break down to the point of him killing Joker, and becoming the villain he always feared turning into. As to Joker, I'd give a kidney for a genuinely nuanced story about him facing his past, because his character is literally defined by running away from it. You've got Going Sane and White Knight as variations on 'hey what if Joker became sane' but they're not at all what I mean. In Going Sane, Joker simply fabricated and assumed a different identity -- he doesn't deal with his memories or his former self in any way. And do not get me started on White Knight, because I hate the idea of some pills just erasing Joker's so-called 'insanity' and with it, his love for Batman. Those pills basically turn him straight for Harley. Yeah that's a great way to imply gay love is obsessive and turns you insane, thank you DC. To be honest I'm pretty sure DC will try... something with Joker's former family at some point, because they had Jeannie and Joker's son be alive in The Three Jokers (which I also hated). And thing is, it could be an interesting story! But I'm like 90% sure it'll suck, because they treat Joker like a one-dimensional evil cardboard cut-out of himself these days. (I did actually start writing a story about Joker more realistically facing his past myself, in Falls the Shadow. Be the change you want to see in the world, I guess.) And when it comes to Batjokes... a story where they team up would be cool. Like that Deadly Duo comic they were planning and that never panned out, apparently. Also, I'd just really find it funny if Joker got kidnapped by aliens or something in full view of the Justice League, and everyone's like "...Yeah, that's cool. It's fine. Him off planet is actually great." Meanwhile Bruce is like "It's a sacred human life! He has to be rescued! I'm going after him!" Basically him being just as stupidly incapable of letting Joker go as in Devil's Advocate, but to an even bigger scale :)) I just think it'd be hilarious to see Bruce dragging Joker back from some remote planet like something of his that got misplaced while everyone is facepalming.

The second question is a perfectly reasonable one to ask! Don't think you're missing the point in any way; and I fully agree these characters have so much history and are so complex it gets headache-inducing sometimes. Aspects of Batman and Joker that I feel are neglected or ignored... well, when it comes to Bruce, it bugs me that Bruce displays character development a bunch of times, but the next writer just bulldozes over it. Again, this is also due to the nature of comics as a medium, and everyone trying to put their own spin on the character, but still. It gets very frustrating. You're like, "Ah, he's finally self-aware about the bullshit he puts his kids through! He's trying to change! He's trying to prioritize his own happiness over his Vow for once!" and a couple of issues later it all gets undone. Sigh. Though for Joker it's a lot worse, I feel. What gets ignored and neglected when writing him is 100% his humanity. There's more than one comic showing more humane sides of him, outright spelling it out that he's not just the Evil Psychopath most fans are eager to believe him to be. But these sides of him -- having emotional breakdowns, not being able to find 'the joke', empathizing with children and trying to help an abused one, having so many comics imply he had a horrible childhood full of physical and even sexual abuse, having some sort of genuine affection for Harley -- are pretty much ignored in more recent depictions. He's just purely unapologetically 'evil', which takes away so much from a very complex and interesting character.

As to the third question, regarding writing Batman and Joker and what to keep in mind... uh. That's complicated, once again. Whenever I write for a fandom I basically bathe my brain in content until I feel I have a good grasp on the characters, and then I just write. They do the work themselves afterwards. Sometimes I might really want to explore something but then the characters won't let me. It's an unconscious thing for me that's hard to break down into components. But in general, there's one thing I believe is essential when writing Batman and Joker in any iteration, and that's the fact they're equals. Sometimes fan depictions of Joker... woobify him a bit too much, turn him into a desperate emotional mess only craving Batman's attention. This takes away from the balance of power between them, in my opinion. Not to say Joker isn't obsesed with Batman and vocal about it; but he's also spent decades fighting him and harming him. Him giving up his entire identity that he so effortfully created in order to deal with his trauma (which is half-Batman related, half entirely not) just for Bruce's romantic attentions feels OOC to me. Not to mention it gives Bruce too much power over him, and the guy has enough problems with that as it is. He doesn't need another person he can control, he needs someone who can withstand his controlling tendencies and fight him on them.

I hope you found my answers interesting! Thank you again for the interest, and no worries. Don't know if there'll ever be a time when I get asked to rant about Batman and I don't jump on it. Hope you're doing okay, and take care too!

#asks #batman #batman meta #bruce wayne #joker #batjokes #batjokes meta #my meta #abuse mention

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hargrove-mayfields · 3 years

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Fic Writer Questions

Tagged by @deardmvz! ty Marilyn!

How many works do you have on ao3?

19 currently! And counting!

What’s your total ao3 word count?

120,141! I’m very long winded!

What are your top 5 fics by kudos?

1. Chase the Wind

2. A Stake of Holly in Her Heart

3. I Hope That Something Better Comes Along

4. Spring Fever (the warm of glowing love)

5. A Password and A Promise

How many fandoms have you written for and what are they?

So many! I won’t even name them all here, but I’m still writing for Batman (specifically gotham, telltale, and lego Batman) and overwatch! One of these days when I get the courage I’ll post my other works to my ao3!

Do you respond to comments, why or why not?

Every last one! I love to hear from my readers, and I feel that if they took the time to respond to what I wrote, I personally like to do the same and let them know I appreciate them reaching out!! But I also usually only get a handful of comments on my fics, so it’s not hard to reply to them all!

What’s the fic you’ve written with the angstiest ending?

Hmm, I’d say that’s probably for a fic I haven’t posted yet, so I’m not going to spoil anything!! (though the true answer for posted fics would be my hollogrove au fic that so far only got like 3 kudos)

Do you write crossovers? If so what is the craziest one you’ve ever written?

Not a lot! But currently I am workshopping a gotham x stranger things au because the actor who plays Martin and little Billy is the same! And that’s definitely pretty crazy rn!

Have you ever received hate on a fic?

I have! Only one time, and that was on Lover, Lover Number 9, an au fic where magic is real, and I was criticized because Steve’s reaction to a love potion almost, but not successfully, being used on him was “unrealistic.” I tried to be nice and explain to them that in a magical universe, ones reactions to a spell being used on them is going to be different than what our perspective might be, and that it’s just a fic that was properly tagged where nothing bad even happened anyways, and they just called me a bitch soo..

Do you write smut? If so what kind?

Nope! I get far too caught up on descriptions and things, so it’s never any good! I find it much easier to rp smut because then it’s more natural!

Have you ever had a fic stolen?

Not as far as I am aware!

Have you ever had a fic translated?

Nope! I’m not really big enough in this fandom to catch that kind of attention! But it would be really cool if somebody wanted to!

Have you ever co-written a fic before?

Not really, no!

What’s your all time favorite ship?

Ooh I can’t even begin to pick! Harringrove, kegboys, batjokes, nygmobblepot, roadrat, mcashe, reaper76, draculara x clawd, abbey x heath, red x mokey, and luis and maria from sesame street are all my top comfort ships tho.

What are your writing strengths?

I think dialogue? I never read back my own writing, so I don’t really know, but I always end up writing the dialogue first and then filling things in, so that’s at least the easiest for me! (whether it’s any good or not is another question though!)

What are your writing weaknesses?

Word repetition or just getting the wrong word for something, not knowing where to stop a plotline, too many ideas, but I don’t know because I don’t really like to pick my skills apart! I think my biggest weakness is making my fics too boring!

What are your thoughts on writing dialogue in other languages in a fic?

Depends on the situation! If I have to use translate for the whole thing I’m probably not going to do it, but I have enough understanding of French and Spanish to write short, simple dialogues! But there’s always the fact that my readers might not understand it, so I’m kind of indifferent I guess.

What was the first fandom you ever wrote for?

Ooh probably Batman? As a little kid I was super obsessed with Batman Forever and I wrote booklets full of two face x riddler fan fiction on stapled together pieces of printer paper!

What’s your favorite fic you’ve written?

Maybe Dream Boy Lover? It’s one where Billy and Heather are friends, and he’s crushing on Steve! I have a whole series planned out to accompany it that I’ll finish one day!!

I’m really not sure who has and hasn’t been tagged, so I’ll tag just anybody who wants to do this! If y’all are feeling left out, don’t be shy to say I tagged ya! <3

#tag game!#thank you much for tagging me I love these games!

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jinxofthedesert · 4 years

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Hi there! Annoying anon that loves rambling about the Valeska twins is here again 🤣 Let the discussion continue! 😂 Yeah, I totally get your point of writing such stories as a means of fulfilling wishes. I guess it makes sense from the writer's pov that they want to give these characters a different (better) treatment. Valid point, but still, they don't feel real to me.

(Below this is the rest of the messages, put together. Farther down, below the line, are my responses)

It's like I'm reading a story with a character that's called Jerome/Jeremiah Valeska and looks exactly like him, but it's not truly him (just like you said, at their cores they are bad guys). But it's perfectly understandable and all right that people want to give them a rest from their chaotic lives haha 😊 everybody’s got their cup of tea ☕

Damn, yes, these stories are so hard to find! I imagine that writing something of the sort and investing so much in such complex characters can be draining and daunting, so yeah I get the reason why there are not so many fics out there... and OCs are so difficult to write haha you are right. They take too much time and effort 🤣

Yeah, I guess Ecco was not the best example. It's very true what you say about Jeremiah's and Ecco's relationship. In the show it was portrayed as a professional one. So we don't really know if there's anything else beyond that, save for some level of concern. So I guess I should have gone with Bruce instead because, just like you said, Jeremiah went totally bonkers when he realized that Bruce was the only one who saw past his resemblance to Jerome.

Basically, what I was trying to say is that in these fics there's not really that same vibe of evil obsession and lunacy from the twin's side. Maybe just some sort of heightened jealousy when their partner is addressed by other characters, but not in a really "Valeska" way. In fact, it is also strange when Bruce is completely absent in these stories when the twins' obsession revolves around him.

Yeah, there is sooo much to explore, so that is why I am very curious to see how people construe their backgrounds, but usually it's just the repetition of the show with some added scenes and dialogues here and there 😅 I would love to see something a bit different, but well, I guess I am being very demanding 🤣 Don't worry about it and thanks so much for replying! 😘 I am now doing some research in different sites 🤣

It's a bit weird because even though I enjoyed the show, I have to say I merely watched it to see ma broski boys in action 🤣 so If I wasn't so lazy (and didn't have other unfinished projects) I would try to write something (my mind is already full of vague ideas OMGGG 😏🤔😂), but I don't really know much about other characters or subplots, so I would not be sure how to tackle it 🤔 Thanks again for the lovely discussion! 😊

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Hi anon! Don’t you worry about your rambles, they’re not at all annoying! I find it rather fun to discuss the twins.

I’m sorry you’ve not been able to find the content you’re looking for; usually, I always run into comments on Tumblr or Pinterest about how you look for certain fics and when you can’t find them, then it’s time to try a hand at writing it yourself. I’ve done that and, even though I enjoy writing, it’s still pretty hard, especially to find a drive to do it when I really am not feeling it. With the twins not feeling real, I understand, ‘course I now think I’m at the point where I might read anything if I’m gifted with more content lol (though there are some tags that, if I see them, I don’t touch if I can help it).

I think, usually, with most writers, it’s easier to take a character like Jerome/Jeremiah and, instead of doing the tremendous work that comes with trying (emphasis trying) to change them, they do a few things and that’s enough for a road to recovery. Because, most of the time, they’re not writing to change the character, or even to make it realistic; sometimes they’re just writing, or they wanted to try a different aspect. There can be so many reasons and sometimes digging deep and getting a character 100% correct isn’t at the top of the list of what you want in that story. Personally, I’ve learned to broaden my sense of disbelief with characters and just enjoy what I manage to find, especially since the Gotham fic-oriented content is sooooo small 😢

After reading your last message, I actually went onto Ao3 and searched ‘character studies’ under the characters and yeah, there’s not much, I read a few and I honestly wasn’t sure what to think (not to call anyone out). It reminded me a lot of my years reading batjokes on fanfiction or, again, Ao3 where, if you search long enough, there’s a fic for almost all your needs. There have been some good gems in there that delve into character studies and helping these characters try and become better. Comparing that to Gotham’s arrangement of fics is sad, to say the least, but batjokes in all media have a lottttt of years to have such a collection of wonderful content. (Even if you’re only a Gotham fan, stretching out into the actual Batman fandom can be very rewarding, even if your next step is into the Nolan movies or even Batman in general cause you can replace the characters in your head if you really want too) I think one big problem with Oc’s is that, in a way, they’re easy to make, but in the worst way. You can create a character to put in the place you want, a blank space and they’re just nothing. This comes up a lot in anime type works, where the main character is so blah for the purpose of the audience (reader in our other case) to put themselves in the place of the main character. This also happens in a lot of movies as well, instead of fleshing the character out and allowing them to move and breathe the way THEY would and not how the audience thinks they themselves would. Because of this, oc’s can be very flat. There are the exception, of course although I have no examples since I don’t remember the last Oc story I read . . . *wracks brain* yeah no idea. Though I’m sure it’s somewhere in my saves.

Even if one doesn’t ship Jeremiah with Bruce, it’s very difficult to ignore/brush under the rug that there was definitely an obsession and that originally, during their weeks of spending time together, building the generator, there started a friendship. The first is very obvious, show-wise (and friendship kinda came with the territory) and the gay subtext can be there if you look at it that way. As much as an interesting character Ecco is, she’s both not important enough in the show (sorry Ecco lovers) or to Jeremiah or to anyone for that matter. While with Bruce and Jeremiah, with how their first meeting go’s and all the meetings that follow after (very willingly on Jeremiah’s part even though I’m sure before this NO ONE was allowed in the inner parts of his bunker for long periods. Probably not even Ecco) the relationship is much more pronounced than anything we’re given prior. I like to think that even though Bruce was manipulating Jeremiah when they first met, he actually did see him as his own person. Even though he, like Jim and Harvey, have personally bore witness to Jerome’s tyranny. (And that only twists the knife harder when Jeremiah eventually loses his mind because both him and Jeremiah saw him as his own person and in a way Jeremiah doesn’t become like Jerome, he becomes worse)

One could argue that since we didn’t see a ‘true’ way the Valeska’s love that any type of them showing affection might never seem very Valeska. Unless one looks at their reactions and interactions with Bruce as something more than just ‘wanting to kill him’ or ‘obsession’. This would be another reason I’m don’t read much in the oc-area or out of the romantic’s lol mainly because the moment they take Bruce out of the picture, everything seems off. Jerome, while willing to divide his attention, only does it with specific people, who are: Jim, Bruce, Jeremiah, and, on occasion, Oswald (though he’s much less in comparison to the ‘big three’). Other then them, we don’t see him hyper-focus on anyone else in the show, and if he does, it’s for a second and to simply kill them after. If these three aren’t integral to his behavior and actions then things feel flat and out-right ignoring his obsession with Bruce and his inner darkness can be unrealistic. With Jeremiah, this is much worse because in canon, once No Man’s Land starts, all he can think about is Bruce. Everything he does in that setting and before this even started was for Bruce. This type of obsession is . . . well, something that can’t simply be ignored, it’s a big part of his character and also very integral to just who he is after the spray. It may not be as bad at the start of the spray (because he’s too busy rebuilding Gotham in his image) but literally second to that desire is his connection with Bruce. If there were a summary of Jeremiah as a character it would be IMPOSSIBLE to write it without Bruce (same with Jerome though his might be a footnote, depending). So him suddenly focusing on someone else is . . . odd (even with Jim he doesn’t give his full attention too and, in the finale, Jeremiah only starts moving around and doing shit when he realizes that Bruce has come home early and that it’s time to finally come back to the spotlight). Especially since he’s supposed to be the ‘Joker’ in the Gotham world, which, technically speaking, means this obsession with the Bat (a.k.a Bruce) will only ever get worse from here (not to mention the fact he knows Batman is Bruce because he remembers the prophecy Ra’s told him, which we’re shown in the finale when he first sees the Bat and comment’s ‘you’ in a knowing way; this can be argued he’s just recognizing that this is what the prophecy was talking about or that it’s Bruce but personally I think both cause the prophecy was about both of them.).

It’s hard not to repeat things in canon though, believe me, I know and if you ever try writing a time travel story, it’s much worse cause then you have to change literally everything if you’re doing it that way. Nah, you know what you like; the only problem with that is it’ll be hard to find it most of the time. I wish you luck in searching! Hopefully, you’ll find something.

Same. My older brother introduced me to the show and his way of doing so was first telling me it was a batman show, that I would LOVE Oswald’s aesthetic and that there was a Joker-type character just introduced. I was sold lol. There’s been a lot of drama with the show though, concerning the twins and I honestly wish they’d just stuck with Jerome or if they did still use Jeremiah that he wasn't just . . . a backup plan for killing Jerome off. And, if they’d been allowed to go on for a few more seasons, I wouldn’t have been surprised if they would have also killed Jeremiah and a third (never heard of) Valeska twin (triplet) would show up, playing into the overall Joker lore about there having been three. 😒🤨😑 Which I find humorous because they did so well with Jerome, he was a well-rounded, fleshed out character and, as much as I love Jeremiah, it’s hard not to consider what we could have gotten if Jerome had lived *wistful sigh* I won’t lie that the drama hasn’t affected how I watch it too these days, or at least left me with a lasting impression. I was very invested in the first few seasons, it was a good show, minus the plot-holes and annoying characters (yes, some annoy me and there are some I can’t stand) but when the twins were on screen, it was probably the show at its best. If they had implicated them more so into the main story I probably would have watched all the way to the end (I can admit, I’ve never seen season five, but I saw many clips, have been completely spoiled and DID watch the finale lol and . . . I think I saw some of season four? Maybe, not sure anymore.) because when they’re also interacting with Bruce, perfection. I could watch that shit for days.

Also, if you did write it, it wouldn’t have to be about other characters if you don’t want it to be. You’re talking to me, who has never seen the last few seasons and when I wrote my first fic ‘Blindly Evident’ literally all my scenes I had to LOOK UP because I only knew the base of what the scene was even about lol. So sometimes, you can totally bullshit your way lol and somehow it turns out to be really good and you like it. Or it’s just snippets of small scenes with your characters (I’ve been writing a fic like that for awhile because it’s fun and easy and yet you can make it so thought provoking because these snippets are so smallll.) I would implore you to give it a go. Even if you have no idea what the other characters are doing or even what their names are.

I feel like this has just become me rambling about Gotham and writing tips at this point lol but you’re welcome~ I am here to try and help and always willing to listen about Gotham and talk (or rant, I’m not picky lol). Thanks again for your ask, anon! Hope you find that content you’re looking for 🥰🧡💛

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