#I don’t want to hear bullshit aphobia
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I’m going to say something not a lot of people will like to hear but fuck it. discrimination towards ace and aro ppl - and those adjacent - is 99% of the time just blatant ableism disguised as “discourse”.
neurodivergent - and specifically autistic - ppl tend to make up a large portion of the aspec community since we tend to experience attraction differently than nt ppl, and I’m just saying that the perception of aspec people in the eyes of people who disagree w our existence being that we’re “childish and immature whiny people who are deeply obsessed with childish things and are too infantile to be taken seriously” being not far off at all from a very ableist stereotype of autistic people? yeah no way in hell that’s not a coincidence. when aphobia and arophobia were at their peak, discriminatory allo people LOVED to be like “ace/aro people are so cringe lmao!!!,!, all they do is obsess (insert ‘childish’ media here) but they still want to be TREATED WITH RESPECT?? how dumb lol unlike us REAL lgbts who care about the REAL world and don’t live in some FANTASY LAND they give US a bad name and need to be removed from our community!” and like…. You’re not gonna take a step back and read back what you’re saying? not at all? you’re not gonna do that huh. you do realize you’re falling eerily in line with a verryyyy specific type of ideology that’s also used against nd people here right?
and the thing that blows the most is that a majority of people engaging in “ace/aro discourse” at its peak WERE neurodivergent - but the thing is back then neurodivergence wasn’t NEARLY as recognized or treated with respect as it is in the current time, back when openly admitting you were autistic and being proud of it was unheard of. so instead, neurodivergent allo people with shitty mentalities chose to go after nd aspec/arospec people because the internet had reduced autism to such a drastic punchline that a lot of autistic people internalized that ableism, and so whenever they saw people being open about their neurodivergency they saw it as “cringe” and would make up any reason they could to justify harassment against them. and since a lot of aspec communities are made up of autistic people that those w internalized ableism saw as “infantile” or “threats to their reputation” - its unfortunately no wonder why so many allo nd lgbt people became so obsessed with attacking them for years on end.
and I know this because I (an ace lesbian) used to be in a lot of friend groups who WERE composed of these allo nd lgbt people who would just say the most vile shit about ace and aro people to make themselves feel more “valid” as “true members of the lgbt community” but these were also literally the only out lgbt friends I had. i kept my ace status closeted from them for years and never engaged in any conversations centering around “ace discourse” because I was afraid of the things that they’d do to me - I had seen them turn on their former friends who confessed they were aro or ace overnight because they were “embarrassing to be around”and i didn’t want to lose the only people in my life who’d “cared” about me. I eventually came to my senses and left them and found friends who knew all the gatekeeping was total meaningless bullshit and thank god I did because it damn near saved my life.
people who say that ace, aro, or any group of people who don’t have a “typical” means of attraction “don’t experience oppression at all” are fucking lying. they’re trying to remove any means of accountability from themselves because people who say that ARE the reason why we face the shit we do. THEY’RE the ones perpetuating it. they’re the reason why harassment against us isn’t as taken seriously because they’ve spread the belief that we are making shit up when we continue to call out the harm they’ve done.
so this pride month please just. fucking take a step back and really think about how many exclus talking points just so happen to coincide with ableist talking points. because I guarantee you there’s a lot of them, and in a climate where neurodivergency is actually able to be discussed and handled with respect now, it’s shocking that more people haven’t caught onto this yet.
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Someone Else’s Shoes
In which Farah starts planning for Pride, and Charlotte and Tina have a not-versation about how sometimes things just don’t fit. For @wayhavensummer festival Day 5 - Pride Festivals, bonus challenge: belonging.
Charlotte Langford & Tina Poname & Farah Hauville; Tina/Farah (background)
Approx. wc: 1089
Rating: t, for mild swearing
Warnings: biphobia/bi erasure, internalized biphobia, aphobia, internalized aphobia
Common Room, Agency Facility in the Big City
“You’re not coming!?” Charlotte flinches as Farah’s voice and disappointment ring through the windowless room. “But you’re not, you know, a” she pauses, looking around at the no one else around to make sure that they aren’t listening in, before dropping her voice to stage whisper the word, “cop” as if it was a piece of classified information, “anymore. You can totally come now!”
Resignation from the Wayhaven PD had been a requirement of their turning, hers and Tina’s - too hard to keep their agelessness a secret if they were always out and about in such a small town - so Farah had taken it upon herself to make PLANS for their first opportunity to join Pride in over a decade.
It’s very kind of her.
She had also decided to regale them with the details of said plans while they were trying to finish the absolute reams of documents the Agency required the newly turned to read through.
Charlotte assumes that, at least, is more for Tina’s benefit than hers.
In any case, she runs a hand through her hair, (it’s a strange sensation, somehow lighter and more substantial at the same time, like she can feel every single strand, but they weigh less than they should), “I...wasn’t really planning on it.”
“But I thought…” the young vampire pulls a fang over her bottom lip. “Oh.”
There’s a half-beat in which Charlotte considers how, exactly, she’s going to talk her way around this one, before Tina jumps in, “She was bad at parties before. Now? With the whole,” she circles her hands around her ears, hypersenses, still adjusting, “Migraine central, right?”
Farah takes it in, nodding (Morgan rarely goes either, for similar reasons) before brightening up again, the lightbulb moment so clear it’s almost an audible ding. “Oooooh, I have to check on something!”
She leans down to kiss Tina on the cheek before launching herself over the back of the couch and out of the door, a shouted, “Catch you later, babe! You too Charlotte!” thrown over her shoulder.
Charlotte waits until the sound of footsteps has died away. “Thanks,” she mutters.
“For what?”
The look she gives Tina - head tilted back, eyebrows raised - says, ‘For covering for me.’
Tina’s response is a slight frown and stuck-out tongue, Nothing to thank me for. “I’m not nailing your panties to the flagpole, Char,” she says.
Charlotte turns back to the papers in front of her with a snort. “There’s an image,” she says, dodging the swat aimed at her arm.
Dodging the first swat anyway. Tina throws a second, with just a little too much power behind it, and they both hiss when it connects, rubbing arm and knuckles respectively. “You know what I mean.”
Silence, again. Charlotte knows the question is coming. That it will come in three heartbeats.
One. T- “You want to talk about it?” Tina asks. Their hearts beat slower now; she’ll have to learn to account for that.
“Not really.” Charlotte shrugs.
Lub-, the mitral and tricuspid valves go first. If she concentrates, she can feel them move, and... Oh. Eugh. Dub- She can feel her pulse. As in, the blood flowing through her veins. All of her veins. That’s... deeply unsettling. Has that always felt like that? Lub-
“You know you’ve got as much right to be there as I do,” Tina says quietly. One-and-a-half beats, then. It’s one-and-a-half beats now.
She doesn’t reply. It doesn’t matter. Her silence speaks for her. Do I?
“I mean, they’re bi. Obviously they’ve been with both.”
They’re a stranger’s words. They shouldn’t matter. But, still... Lub-dub, lub-
“That’s some bullshit.”
“I didn’t say anything!” She gives up pretending to fill in the form, leans back on the couch and rests her head against the backrest.
“You didn’t need to.” Tina has her arms crossed, a small smile playing over her pink-painted lips. (It was the first thing she forced herself to re-adjust to, lipstick. Charlotte had personally considered clothes of slightly more importance, but to each their own.) “I can hear you just fine.”
Charlotte just rolls her eyes.“Vampires can’t read minds, Tee.”
“Best friends can, stupid. I knew what you were thinking before the superpowers!” There’s a pause, while Tina twirls her pen between her fingers, before she adds, “You know you belong, Char.”
“Any girl who’s into girls...”
Not a stranger, this time. And it was just the heat of the moment, but...
“Oh my god, help. I’m so bi…”
It’s not like it’s rare.
She just hums in response.
“It’s not like there’s some kind of agency that checks.” Tina reiterates, putting on a mock-official voice “You must be at least this queer to join.”
Charlotte snorts at that. “What, queer passports?”
“Get a stamp for every time you get laid?”
Ah. It must show on her face.
“Sorry.”
“It’s fine, Tee,” she says with a sigh, it’s nothing I haven’t heard before, “I’m just being oversensitive.”
“You’re being the normal amount of sensitive. Which just feels like oversensitive for you because your baseline is super undersensitive.”
“That’s not a word.”
“That’s not important. You’d feel better if you would just talk about things,” she emphasises each word with a poke to the leg, “with your best friend.”
Lub-dub, there won’t be a follow-up question. Lub-dub. Tina’s done her prodding (literal and figurative), it’s just a matter of who gives in first. Lub-dub.
Charlotte toys with the ends of her hair, looking for the right words, (she can never find them when she needs them). How can she explain the way the words eat and eat until the scraps fall away in her hands? How the definitions twist and turn until they don’t seem to work, don’t seem to apply anymore? The way it’s impossible to feel like she belongs - she's only ever reminded of all of the ways that she doesn't.
She sighs. Lub-dub. (It’s always her that gives in first.) “It’s like… you remember that summer when we had the same shoes?”
They’d been the same size, then, before Tina’s growth spurt had hit, and Charlotte’s hadn’t. (Vampirism had just made it worse, Tina gaining four inches to Charlotte’s one.)
Tina laughs, “Matching wardrobes you mean. And we were always putting the wrong ones on?”
In spite of herself, Charlotte chuckles along. “But we always knew right away. Because they just felt kind of...”
“Off?”
Off. Yes. That. “Exactly.” She tips her head back to look up at the ceiling. “They just feel… off.”
#wayhavensummer#twc#charlotte langford#tina poname#farah hauville#biphobia#bi erasure#aphobia#internalized biphobia#internalized aphobia#in which your author gets uncomfortably personal#wsf challenge
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ok, so you ask me “are you an aphobe” and i give you my answer, and you don’t like it, because “it’s just a yes or no question.” i suppose you’re not wrong, but i suppose instead of answering that i really wanted to ask you another question.
what is “aphobia”? you would tell me “it’s discrimination against people who don’t have sexual/romantic attraction”. That this is somehow on the same footing of homophobia and transphobia. But how is “discrimination against people who dont have sexual attraction” on the same footing as “discrimination towards people who have a certain sexual/romantic attraction”? this is an oxymoron.
“aphobia” is a flawed concept. it’s a reductive concept. it makes false assumptions. it lumps too many issues under a name that tries to erroneously put them all on same footing, as if they all have the same solution.
if sex was as praised in society as you all propose, then why the fuck is sex work criminalized?
fetishization, oversexualization, objectification isn’t sex positivity. you tell me “systemic oppression isn’t just law” and you’re right. still, i’ve yet to hear of anyone not receiving housing, a job, proper healthcare, etc, because they do not have a sexual interest in anyone. historically, when a person did not take a partner, it was seen badly because people suspected homosexuality.
aphobia is a concept that assumes “having sex” is the norm embraced by society, which is straight up not true. Gay/bi/trans sexuality is pathologized. It’s punished. Even cishet sexual attraction and activity is pathologized and punished in WoC, especially in Black women. Fuck, even cishet white women get fucked over every now and then for wanting to have sex, ESPECIALLY when they try to make a living out of it!
Aphobia also assumes gay people are punished for “not wanting the ‘opposite sex’” which is 1. an incomplete understanding of homophobia 2. biphobic. Based on this wrong assumption you then think “acephobia” is on the same standing as homophobia, transphobia, etc. It’s not.
Compare complex attitudes towards people’s sex lives to the laser-pointed simplicity of homophobia, misogyny, transphobia, racism. Society uniformly DOES see gay/bi sexual attraction as disgusting, trans people as disgusting, women as lesser, people of color as lesser, disabled people as lesser. Society does NOT view people having sex as unilaterally Good and Praise-worthy as a concept like “aphobia” would suggest.
I recognize the close link aro/ace people have with LGBT communities, which is why i think it’s foolish and unnecessary to wail about how aro/ace people should be kept away. I also 100% recognize people can get on aro/ace people’s cases because they’re expected to have (MOSTLY HETEROSEXUAL) relationships, romantic and sexual.
But that will not stop me from pointing out that “aro/ace” status is not a political class the same way LGB, and T are. Like four fucking people IMMEDIATELY running into our inbox with transphobic, homophobic bullshit to argue with us are only proving the fact that you clowns crying “aphobia” in our inbox have a LOT to learn, and that you don’t understand what the LGBT community is or why it formed to begin with.
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quick disclaimer before fic: this is not meant to excuse or absolve melanie and georgie of outing jon; what they did was wrong and they should not have done it. instead it is an... examination of a character who is Maybe working some things out but, due to Internalized Issues, is harshly rejecting it both for herself and other people. (i’m aware i wrote something with the exact same FUCKING premise back when i was in the sh*rl*ck fandom dear god don’t read that linked fic it is from a deeply shameful time of fandom i only linked it as proof i did the same thing before. almost like i’m still working through the same stuff via writing fanfiction. hm.) (further discussion on THAT in post-fic notes; i wanted to keep it under the cut for personal reasons.)
furthermore: warning for discussion of sex (but not explicit depictions of sex), characters experiencing aphobia both internalized and not, mention of sexism wrt jobs, characters outing other characters without their consent (more than once, and more than just jon), and mention of consensual but unwanted sex (as in, consent was given, but the consenter did not enjoy it, and consented due to expectations).
- - -
It starts with: “I don’t, I, I usually can’t—Lately. I mean. Lately I can’t.” Melanie shuts her eyes so she won’t have to see Georgie, her hand on the sheets, judgment questions in her eyes. “Since I got—shot. It’s more difficult, is all.”
“Melanie—”
“You can still try,” she says, the words falling too fast, too panicked. “If you want, sometimes other people—and it’s fine! I’m always, it’s fine to try. Sometimes I do. I just might not. You know.”
“You might not orgasm,” Georgie finishes for her. It’s hard to tell how she’s feeling about it—until her fingers brush Melanie’s chin, turning her face up.
Reluctantly, Melanie opens her eyes, and then she’s glad she did. Because Georgie’s smiling, not a mocking smile, gentle. And they said this was just, just casual, just between friends (there’s too much going on with ghosts and the Institute and Georgie’s ex sleeping on her couch when he isn’t being kidnapped for it to be more than that), but Melanie’s glad Georgie is smiling.
“Hey, it’s okay,” Georgie says. She’s sitting up now, not lying almost-not-quite between Melanie’s legs anymore. She looks gorgeous, naked and cross-legged on that horrible mattress with a microfiber sheet wrapped around her shoulders, and Melanie wants to curl up in the sheet with her and eat the leftover pizza from earlier and fall asleep together with grease on their hands.
No. Focus. “It’s okay,” Georgie says again, gentler. “If you can’t right now. If you don’t want to. You certainly gave me a lovely orgasm—”
“—or three—”
“—yes, thank you, and if you’d rather just call it there, I’m not pushing it. As long as you enjoyed yourself.” She frowns, suddenly, glancing down at Melanie’s hands. “You… did enjoy yourself? I hope we didn’t—”
“I did!” She always does, when it’s other people coming, when she gets to be touching warm skin and watching someone fall apart. It’s… nice. “It’s just, you know. I got shot.”
(And isn’t that a convenient excuse, she sneers in her own head, and it sounds like Toni refusing to come back to the team, it sounds like the most sarcastic videos about her breakdown, it sounds like Elias. Isn’t it convenient that now you can blame your little problem on blood flow, or nerve endings, or stress. Never mind that you didn’t have those excuses a year ago. Or two years. Or back when you had a real girlfriend, and you always said yes but she got tired before—)
Georgie tucks a strand of hair behind Melanie’s ear. “Okay, good. If we, you know, try this again sometime? If you’re feeling better? Then I can try.” She stops, licks her lips, watches Melanie’s expression. “Or I can… not try, if you’d still prefer that. Later. You know. If.”
“I’m not—” And she’s rushing again, always rushing, she doesn’t even know if she and Georgie will ever—
“No, I know! It’s fine! But like—Look, this isn’t exactly new for me, you know? If that’s something you want. Something you don’t want. Or I, I’m saying it’s not a problem, if you do or don’t want me to make you come in the future, or even if you don’t want to have sex at all, I mean, when we were dating Jon didn’t—”
That’s where Georgie stops, as if talking about Jon is too much, as if she hasn’t been speaking Melanie’s secret insecurities out loud in bed like it’s something they can talk about, as if all of this hasn’t already been too much and too terrifying already.
Melanie stands up, grabs the comforter as a makeshift cloak (because Georgie has the sheet, and suddenly she isn’t sure she wants to share the sheet with her). “Right.”
“I’m just—I have a friend. Who you might talk to, if you wanted to talk about this.”
She steps away from the bed, towards the door. “Sure. Pizza? I’m hungry.”
-
The problem is, Melanie doesn’t much like Jon. He was such a dick about the Youtube thing, and about her statement, and about Sasha. And even though she knows (sort of) that part of it hadn’t been his fault, she still isn’t going to talk over her disinterest in sex with him. It’s mortifying. Even if he wasn’t her boss. And Georgie’s ex. And currently out of the Archives, anyway.
But she wants to talk to somebody, about Georgie’s words running around and around and around her head, about the sheer panic mixing with almost-relief and then the visceral no no no churning low in her stomach that had made it a struggle just to choke down her pizza. She wants to ask someone is this normal, am I allowed, is it even enough to be halfway to ‘not at all’ or should I just suck it up. She wants to talk that out desperately.
It’s just… she doesn’t have many friends left, after her whole fall from Youtube ghost hunter grace. She’s not going to ask Georgie about it, any more than Jon, although for pretty much the opposite reason. Who’s left? Her shiny new coworkers? Tim, who seethes and hates everything and everyone in the Archives? Martin, who’s still upset that Jon so much as spoke to her while he was on the run? Basira?
-
When Melanie met Sasha—the real Sasha, the one apparently no one but her even remembers—she’d been the only woman in the Archives. And Melanie had chatted with her about haunted pubs, and maximizing SEO, and how to talk to people who’d seen a white dog while they were drunk and thought it was a ghost. And about their jobs, of course, which led to both of them scoffing about the sexist bullshit of academia and how someone like Sasha could be just an assistant and the only woman on her team.
And then Elias hired Melanie to replace… the thing that replaced Sasha. Hired another woman to replace the only woman. You learn to see patterns from the kind of person who might say diversity the same way as toilet plunger: something necessary, but distasteful. Melanie was filling a role he needed filled, and she could live with that.
And then Basira.
Who wasn’t there because she wanted to be, of course, but was still there. Was still another woman in the boy’s club of terror they’d apparently signed on for. Could maybe, maybe, be someone Melanie could connect with. Someone she could talk to.
Maybe.
-
“Do you know if he and Jon ever…?”
“No clue, and not interested!” She’s laughing, about to just dismiss it out of hand, but… maybe. She can feel the questions she never asked Georgie, the words sharpening their claws on the edges of her mind. The no, not me, not allowed sinking in her gut.
“Although…” Make it light. Make it interesting. Make it about someone else. How to hook an audience without having a public breakdown and becoming a— “According to Georgie, Jon… doesn’t.”
It feels wrong as soon as she says it. Like she’s dirty. Like she’s lying. Like a thousand eyes are looking at her, watching her, waiting for more. Make it a story. Engage your audience. Like it’s 2013 in a convention hotel room and Pete just told everyone Don’t worry, Mel likes girls actually, and even though they were all fine about it that moment of sharpshock terror in her throat as they all looked—
“Like, at all?”
The one thing she never learned was how to stop talking. “Yeah.”
“Yeah, that does explain some stuff.”
And that’s… it, really. That does explain some stuff. Jon is a dick, has always been a dick, overfocused on work and not on other people, and that does explain some stuff. Right. Yes. Like her last girlfriend had told her, about all you do is work, I can’t even get you off. An explanation, just like she always knew it would be.
It doesn’t really matter. She has a boss to go kill.
-
“I think,” she says, slow, like every word is being dragged out of her, “that I might not like. Sex. As much as, you know, people do.”
“You’re a person,” her therapist says, firm, and she has to bite back a sarcastic laugh.
“Right. ‘Course.”
- - -
post-fic notes: i myself personally have previously identified as: heteroromantic gray-ace, heteroromantic ace, aroace, aro gray-ace, aro bi, bi, arospec bi, aro bi again, and aro bi but sex ambivalent. part of that has been natural progression and change; part of that was bcos some people i considered friends got very into aphobic discourse, and i internalized a lot of what they said. in recent months i have been examining my sex ambivalence (sometimes repulsion) and considering what that means about whether or not i am on the ace spectrum. i’m still thinking about these things. i’m still, deep down inside, afraid of the aphobic people i respected and cared about hearing about this.
in part i wrote this to work through some of My Own Shit regarding this. in part i wrote this bcos i will get my grubby little aspec hands (bcos regardless of anything else, i am aspec, whether that’s ace or aro) on every character i can. yes, even the ones who did an objectively shitty thing to jon, the one canonical ace character. bcos sometimes people (like me) internalize things and make mistakes.
#absolutely not beta'd or britpicked or even edited much#i needed to get this out and now it's late but i'm WORKING THROUGH SOME STUFF#uhhhh ambiguous ending about melanie's like! decisions! identity! feelings!#ambiguous if she or georgie EVER talk to JON#nothing is resolved! nothing is fucking good and light and happy! it's all MESSY#it's also so long i'm so sorry but melanie spent a lot of time looking at georgie and then a lot in emotional turmoil so like#what can ya do.#anyway. fuck it. posting a thing.#fanfiction#algie writes things#the magnus archives#hopefully i have rambled long enough this doesn't get maintagged sry if it does ignore me i needed this for ME#and i guess like. i do want other ppl to read it. but i do not want to maintag it. u kno how it is.#NOW WITH EDITING
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You Keep Saying You’re Broken (I’m Telling You We’re Beautiful)
Ao3
Summary: Logan loved someone. That wasn’t important. What was important was that he didn’t love them enough.
Remy seems to think he’s got the two backwards.
Content: Magic AU, nonbinary!Remy, aroace!Logan + aroace!Remy, internalized aphobia, tiny bit of swearing, h/c, happy ending
Pairing: Friends-to-qpps losleep
It didn’t work.
It didn’t work, again, didn’t do what it was supposed to, and he had been so careful this time, he knew it was right, knew he hadn’t messed up, and yet nothing was happening and it had failed so he had failed and-
Someone was knocking on his door.
Logan ignored them in favor of the pounding in his head that was quickly taking over all his hearing facilities. The vial he had been holding dropped limply to the ground, rolling away from him; the photo fell too and drifted away from him as well. He pressed his now free hands against the desk in front of him, trying to brace himself, to steady himself before he fell over and joined everything else on the floor.
“Logan?” A much too familiar voice called out. “You in there?”
No. No no no- not them, anyone else but them-
The door pushed open, the cause of all his problems but not the source of them peeking their head into the room, looking around. “Hey, I know you’re big on privacy, babe, but I- Lo?”
He couldn’t hide. They were right there and he was right here, out in the open, and Remy’s expression was starting to become one of concern and despite the fact that he was looking at them- actually looking at them, not just a photo now- Logan still didn’t feel different, didn’t feel changed, didn’t feel his heart soar or his chest burn or anything of the like, didn’t feel anything everyone always said they felt like when they were in-
“Lo, is something wrong?” Remy asked, breaking him out of his thoughts, bringing him back to Remy, who had taken a few steps into his room and cocked their head in confusion. “You’re looking a little… off.”
Logan cleared his throat. He could do this. All he had to do was convince Remy he was fine and get them to leave so that he could try again and maybe actually get it right this time.
“I am adequate.” Logan started, and he was proud of himself for how level his voice sounded. “Apologies for worrying you, however- is there something I can assist you with?”
“You’ve been in your room a while. I just wanted to check in.” Remy said, still looking mildly concerned. “You sure you good, hun? You’re a little pale.”
“Simply a side effect of lots of hard working.” Logan answered. “But I assure you, I am doing just fine.”
Remy frowned. “If you say so… still, you shouldn’t be working that much. Come take a walk with me, yeah, clear your head a bit?”
Logan shook his head in negation before Remy had even finished their sentence. “While that sounds very pleasant, Remy, I really am quite busy- can’t be distracted while my work’s at such a crucial juncture-”
As Logan spoke, Remy’s frown quickly morphed into a smile. “I knew it.”
“Hm?”
“I knew it!” Remy repeated, moving past Logan to get a better look around his room. “You’re experimenting again. Something real dangerous if you don’t want me to know about it- have you finally tried your hand at artificial dragon fire? For all you mock my version of it I’m sure you’ve quickly realized it’s not nearly as easy to make as the books say it is-”
“I’m not experimenting!” Logan cut them off, trying to sound indignant and not panicked. If Remy went looking too long they might find his supplies. “And I really do have work to do, so if you could kindly-”
“Sorry, babes, but you can’t fool me.” Remy said, still looking. “You were always a terrible liar- you know that?- absolutely horrible, never could keep your… work a secret… Logan, what’s this?”
Logan turned from where he had been glaring at his desk to look at Remy. The moment he saw what they were holding, his breath caught in his throat and he froze.
The vial.
The vial he had been using for his experiment.
The vial that still had traces of his latest attempt staining the inside of it.
Remy pushed their sunglasses up on top of their head, honey-brown eyes full of worry and the beginnings of fear now on display. “Logan.” They repeated, voice sounding slightly shaky. “Why is the vial empty?”
Logan didn’t answer them, instead remaining stock still in place, hands still planted on the desk behind him to make sure his now much more wobbly legs didn’t give out on him.
“You drank it.” Remy guessed, the conclusion they had likely come to first only confirmed by Logan’s refusal to explain the vial’s emptiness. “And you’re hiding it so it must be bad- Logan, what did you drink?!”
Still no response.
Remy nodded. “Alright, you’re not going to tell me, either because you’re stubborn or it’s a side effect- damnit Logan you’re so pale- sit down, please, before you fall down.”
Logan didn’t react to what Remy said, still trying to get past the mental shock that was ‘Remy’s going to find out and they’re going to stop you and your experiments and you will have failed them and yourself and it’s all over now just because you couldn’t hide your supplies-’
He was dragged out of his thoughts by the sudden, but not unpleasant, feeling of hands gently grabbing his arms, tugging him away from where he was leaning against the desk and moving him to sit in his chair instead.
“There we go.” Remy was murmuring, voice still sounding worried and afraid, but gentler now, likely an attempt to keep Logan from falling completely into a panic attack. “Now come on, hey, it’s okay, don’t look away, let me see those pretty eyes.”
Logan’s attempt to keep his eyes downcast and focused on his lap was thwarted by Remy gently taking his chin and lifting it up, looking carefully at not only his eyes but his whole face. They were mumbling under their breath, and after a moment, Logan realized what they were doing- trying to categorize Logan’s symptoms to figure out what he had taken.
That conclusion was enough to make Logan at least try to stand up, to move, get away until the symptoms were gone and his experiment hidden, but Remy just moved one of their hands to rest at Logan’s hip and hold him steady.
“I know you probably think I’m babying you, Lo, but I need to figure out what stupid thing you took.” Remy chastised lightly, the hand on Logan’s chin moving to take his wrist instead, counting the pulse. “I know I don’t exactly set the best example for this sort of thing, but you really can’t just go around drinking potions- especially if you’re not an actual alchemist. What were you thinking?”
“Nothing.” Logan managed to mumble. “I wasn’t thinking anything because it’s nothing- really, Remy, I’m fine, this is unnecessary-”
“Mhmm. No offense, sweetheart, but I call bullshit on that.” Remy responded. “If it was nothing, you wouldn’t have tried to hide it from me. And you definitely have symptoms- your pulse is racing, your pale and shaking but your cheeks are still a bright red, your eyes are normally blue but right now they’re brown…”
Remy trailed off, their eyes widening in understanding, and Logan pretended there was a chance they had come to a wrong conclusion. “What is it?”
“Logan… why the hell were you drinking love potion?” Remy asked instead, frowning in confusion. In response, Logan looked away.
Of course they had figured it out. Logan knew they would, knew Remy was too smart to miss it, to mix it up for something else, but that didn’t change the fact that he wished they hadn’t, hadn’t figured it out and put it down to Logan’s nerves and left him alone for the day to try again and this time get it right.
Remy didn’t force Logan to face them, instead just quietly sighing. “Don’t move.” They ordered lightly. “I’m going to get my bag.”
They sprinted out of the room after that, and Logan once more looked forward, looking at the door they had left open. He had half a mind to get up and close it, jam his chair beneath the knob and get back to his work, but he doubted that would last long before Remy broke the door down. He also doubted if he had enough strength- physical and mental- to get up and block Remy out.
The choice was made for him quickly enough anyways, Remy returning before Logan could even test if his legs would support him enough to stand. They were ruffling through their brown satchel, soon enough throwing it aside as they pulled out a roll of chalky white discs.
They offered one of the discs to Logan. “Eat this.” They instructed, pressing it into Logan’s hand when he didn’t immediately take it. Logan just held it for a moment, squeezing it pointlessly between his fingers, but Remy’s waiting stare was unrelenting and he gave into it soon enough. The taste of the disc was abysmal, but it dissolved quickly enough, and he swallowed it down as soon as he could.
“Give that about five minutes and the majority of your symptoms should be gone.” Remy said quietly. “And while we wait for those minutes to pass, you can tell me why you were making and self-administering love potion.”
Logan half-shrugged and looked at his lap. “I am my own person, I can make and self-administer whatever potions I should please at my own will.”
“When it makes sense, maybe.” Remy responded. “But love potion? People use that to trick their crushes into liking them. Or to prepare themselves for a disastrous but necessary arranged marriage. Now, unless you have a future spouse I hadn’t been informed of-”
“I don’t.”
“-I don’t see any reason for you to have been taking this stuff.” Remy finished. “Care to enlighten me?”
“It doesn’t matter.” Logan answered instead, shaking his head. “The potion didn’t work. I made it wrong. It doesn’t matter.”
Remy raised a disbelieving eyebrow at that. “Uh. Yeah. Sure. Great stalling tactic but-”
“I’m not stalling.” Logan snapped, the result of pent of stress and the desire for Remy to leave so he could get back to his work. He felt bad about his tone immediately, though, sighing as he softened it. “It really didn’t work, Rem.”
At this, Remy frowned, looking between Logan and the vial. After a moment, they (to Logan’s shock and mild horror) put the vial to their lips and managed to convince a few spare drops to slide down into their mouth.
“What are you doing?” Logan hissed, watching as Remy closed their eyes and swished the few drops around in their mouth. Remy didn’t respond for a moment, busy tasting the love potion. Finally, they swallowed.
“Don’t worry about it, hun, I’m immune to most potions by now.” Remy told him, looking into the vial in bewilderment. “Though this one is really throwing its hat into the ring to try and disprove that- I don’t know how you got the idea that this thing is ineffective considering it’s a few more drops of hollybreath strain away from stopping your heart instead of exciting it. No wonder you’re shaking so badly.”
“So… you’re saying it should’ve worked?”
“To be frank, I’m not sure how it couldn’t have.” Remy answered, gingerly setting the vial down on Logan’s desk. “I’m a little surprised I don’t have to pin you down to stop you from running off to your new boo… what were you looking at when you drank this, anyways?”
Though Logan heard Remy’s question, he didn’t answer it, instead once more turning his attention to his lap as his thoughts ran wild. The potion had worked. Hell, Remy said it was too strong, which meant at least some of the potions before must have worked too… but they didn’t. None of them had done what they said on the tin, none of them had made him fall in love. Not really, anyways, since there was no burning heart or sudden desire- there was just the same soft, impossibly warm sort of feeling in his gut that let him know he felt something, but not love, not really, just-
Logan jerked out of his thoughts when Remy snapped their fingers in front of his face, Remy frowning, worry laced in their entire expression. “Earth to Logan? Darling, you know I love seeing your big brain in action, but I’d be lying if it wasn’t putting me a bit on edge right now. What’re you thinking about in there?”
Barely a thought as to how to respond had crossed Logan’s mind before he was blurting out, “I’m broken.”
Remy blinked. “Nope. Don’t like that. Your brain rights are being revoked. No thinking for you if you’re going to think wrong.” Remy said, light words contrasted by a distressed tone. “Honey, darling, sweetheart, why do you think you’re broken?”
“Because the potions didn’t work.” Logan said miserably, too tired to try and backtrack or explain it away as anything other than what it was. “I thought I had been making them wrong, not adding enough of something, so I kept remaking them and trying again but none of them worked and I just thought the potions were wrong but it was me, I was wrong, the only same variable of course it was me-”
“Logan, sweetie, please slow down.” Remy cut him off, placing their hands on Logan’s shoulders and running them lightly over his arms. “You’re not making sense. How many of these potions have you been taking?”
“Three or four, I don’t know.” Logan said indifferently. “But it doesn’t matter, because they didn’t work-”
“That’s not possible.” Remy said with a frown. “That love potion was strong, sugar, there’s no way you could’ve resisted it unless you had some sort of personal mutation against it- and your eyes changed colour, so I know you don’t. And if you’re telling me you drank more than one... the love potions had to have worked, Lo.”
Logan shook his head. “No, they didn’t; I know they didn’t, I don’t feel any different, nothing’s changed-”
“That means you’re already in love, darling.” Remy said gently. “Whoever you’ve been trying to fall in love with- you already love them. The potion can’t give you feelings you already have- no wonder you feel the same, you are the same. Not broken. Just already in love.”
“That’s the problem!” Logan exclaimed, frustrated, curling his fists together and digging the nails into the skin, closing his eyes as well. “I’m- I love but I- but not enough, not right- the potion was supposed to fix that and- and it didn’t because I’m so fucking broken nothing can fix it-”
“Please don’t say that.” Remy pleaded, one hand moving from Logan’s arm to cup his cheek. “You’re not broken at all, honey, but I don’t know why you think you are, and that’s worrying me. You’re worrying me. What’s gotten into your head?”
Logan didn’t respond immediately, opening his eyes only to look unseeingly at his pants, trying to ignore Remy’s searching, troubled expression. “I love someone.” He admitted quietly.
“...Okay. That’s okay.”
“But I don’t-” Logan paused, struggling with his words, “I don’t want to kiss them. Or- or make-out with them, or have sex with them, or anything like that-”
“That’s okay.” Remy repeated. “I don’t want to kiss anyone or have sex with anyone either. There’s nothing wrong with that.”
“No, I-” Logan froze, processing what Remy had said, looking up at them in confusion. “What?”
Remy smiled just a little. “Kissing’s weird. Sex is yucky. They’re not really my scene. Does that mean there’s something wrong with me?”
“I- wha- of course not.” Logan said, stumbling over his words but still sure of them.
“Then- surprise!” Remy said, their smile growing a bit bigger. “You’re not broken either.”
“But the potions-”
“-make you fall in love as fully as you can.” Remy finished for him. “If you don’t like sex or kissing or romance or any of that, you won’t suddenly start feeling those feelings because you drank the potion. You’re not broken for not feeling those things. Just human. Why would you try to force yourself to feel like that?”
“Y- the person I love, they… they deserve all my love.” Logan said, hoping Remy would ignore his obvious slip of tongue. “Before I told them I- I wanted them to have all my love; they deserve to have all my love.”
Remy’s smile turned sympathetic. “Whoever this person you love is… you love them a lot, don’t you? Want them to be happy?”
“Of course.”
“Then you love them enough. Hell, you probably love them more than enough.” Remy told him. “Love isn’t parts- it isn’t one third sex and one third romance or anything like that. If you love them, you love them completely. No if’s, and’s, or but’s about it.”
Logan didn’t respond to that, choosing to just look up instead, finding Remy’s eyes watching him closely and warmly.
“Hun.” Remy said, tone lightly teasing. “Do you want to tell me who you were trying to ‘fall more in love with’ or should I guess?”
Logan remained quiet, meeting Remy’s gaze evenly, not sure if he’d prefer for them to guess or just drop the matter entirely. Remy just kept smiling, looking much too amused.
“Guessing it is, then.” Remy said delightedly. They moved, pushing Logan a bit to the side as they sunk down into the chair next to them, the hand that had been cupping his cheek slipping around his shoulder.
“You don’t have to do this-”
“I bet they’re really pretty.” Remy began, ignoring Logan. “Not as pretty as you, of course, but no one’s that pretty so it’s an unfair comparison. And I’mma say they have to be at least a little smart to get your attention given how absolutely brilliant you are-”
“Remy!”
“-and I know they have brown eyes because of the love potion, and I have a random suspicion that they’re an alchemist- though that one’s just a hunch- and I really have the feeling that for your cheeks to be as bright red as they are right now they must be very close to you indeed.”
Logan didn’t need to touch his cheek to know it was, in fact, burning, but he still did, glaring at Remy when their words were only confirmed. “I hate you.”
“Doubtful.” Remy responded cheerily. “In fact, cutie, I think you looooove me.”
Logan groaned. “This. This is why I didn’t tell you sooner.”
“Wrong again.” Remy said, leaning in to rub their nose against Logan’s before leaning their forehead against his. “I think you didn’t tell me because you were harboring under the horribly false idea that you having a brain and realizing that kissing and sex were overrated made you an unsuitable partner. But that’s okay. I’m going to prove you wrong about all of that.”
Logan smiled at that, reaching over to take Remy’s free hand and run his thumb over the back of it. “How’d you guess?”
Remy grinned. “My photo was next to the vial.”
“...Oh.”
“Thought you had just dropped it or something. Once I realized what you had been chugging I realized why it was really there.” Remy told him. “I didn’t mention it straight away because I didn’t want you to distract me from why you were trying to fall in love with me.”
Logan nodded. “Yeah… I’m sorry, again, for that Remy, I just-”
“You loved me?”
“I loved you.” Logan echoed. “Love you. And you deserve so much love, more than I felt I was offering-”
“Hey-hey-hey, enough of that, now.” Remy said, cutting Logan off gently. “You don’t need to apologize to me, love. I know what you were trying to do, and I appreciate the effort- in theory. But I also need you to know that I love you. You and your big brain and cute face and geeky personality.” Remy freed their hand from Logan’s so that they could brush back some of Logan’s hair, tucking it behind his ear. They smiled as they looked at him, expression sappy in a way Logan really felt should be illegal. “You are magnificent to me, Lo. If I’m lucky enough to get any of your love, in whatever form it may take, I promise you, it’s plenty more than enough.”
Logan blushed even harder than he had been, which was impressive given up until that moment he didn’t think he could do that. “I- I… I think you’re magnificent too.”
Remy grinned. “See? That’s what I’m talking about. You look so cute when you’re flustered- and calling me magnificent back, oh, my dear darling starshine, you really are too sweet to be real.”
Logan squeaked. Remy just laughed.
“See, this?” Remy asked, leaning in and pressing a quick little kiss to the tip of Logan’s nose before pulling back and watching him turn redder. “This is why I love you.”
“...I love you too.” Logan said, trying to act annoyed and be sullen but failing miserably in the sense that so long as Remy was looking at him like that- like he had hung the moon and painted the sunrise- he really couldn’t be anything other than a blushing, smiling, giddy mess. A love-stricken mess.
“There you go.” Remy said happily, shifting so that their arms were wrapped loosely over Logan’s shoulders and around his back in an odd, yet comforting, sort of hug. Once more their forehead leaned against Logan’s, their eyes close and bright with excitement and joy and love as they looked at him. “That sounds like enough love to me, don’tcha think?”
And with Remy’s eyes still on him, their expression so open and their smile so earnest as they held him close and made him feel warm both inside and out, Logan didn’t have any choice but to smile back, just as lovingly, and answer, “Yeah. I think it’s enough.”
#losleep#queerplatonic losleep#ts logan#ts sleep#ts remy#qpr losleep#write losleep cowards#fanfic#fanfiction#sanders sides#ts sides#nb!remy#aroace!logan#aroace!remy#aspec!sides#this was meant to have a more serious general ending#but then remy#they grabbed the reigns; said no; and ran away#and I just had to let them do it
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I still have a decent amount of internalized aphobia I'm dealing with, so I will start scrolling through very anti-ace and anti-aro blogs. And it hurts. Like a lot. And I don't know if I should stop or not. Like, I know it's bad but I kinda feel like I need to hear the other side no matter how bad. Anyways, thank you for you're time!
Hmmm, I get this. But may I instead suggest you just follow aces that call out discourse? I don’t want you to sit in a space that you just eat the abuse. If you feel like you gotta see bullshit to understand it better, please at least follow people who explain why it is bullshit afterward.
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I've experienced aphobia.
I've experienced homophobia.
I've experienced sexism.
I've experienced ableism.
What the fuck makes people think I want to hear their racist bullshit? I may have been too scared to make a ruckus when it was sexism, aphobia, ableism, homophobia directed at ME, but I've been sick of this bigotry for YEARS now. So you better fucking bet I'll call a bitch out on their racism. I'm literally WAITING to hear some bigoted bullshit now so I can scream and shout and let people know JUST HOW ANGRY I AM about this bullshit.
Don't be fucking racist.
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If you take prompts how about ace Roman dealing with internalised aphobia?
Kiddo, you KNOW, I take prompts!Warnings: Acephobia, internalised acephobia, swearing
Ship: Platonic!LAMP
Plot: Roman is really trying his best to come to terms with the situation, really he is, but he can’t help but feel a little wrong, a little...broken. Luckily he has some overprotective friends to help him through his journey. (Ace!Roman, Trans!Virgil)
“He hasn’t moved in an hour,” Distantly, Roman can hear Patton talking in a hushed, worried voice but it floats through his head like air, barely registering in his claustrophobic mind. “I tried to talk to him but he gave me such a blank look and then looked away,” Roman blinks back to reality in time to hear a sigh that can only be Logan, those mildly frustrated yet worried sighs of his.
“Is it...that again?”
“I don’t know,”
A pause, a beat, silence except for breathing and the ticking of the clock, the sound of cars passing outside the window n the hum of city life. But within those walls, no one knew what to say “Call Virgil,” Logan finally speaks. “I’ll try and talk to him in the meantime,” Roman hears Patton leave and watches mutely as his oldest friend sits at the end of the couch and stares at him.
Logan isn’t very good at comforting people. But for Roman, he’ll try.
“Can you talk?” The elder asks softly and Roman shakes his head slowly, his throat feels too tight, too tired. “Is this about...the same as last time?” Roman nods this time, his eyes averting. Logan bites down on his lip, he knows he can’t really change Roman’s mind on the situation, how he feels, they’ve all tried so many times, it’s a long process that Roman himself doesn’t even seem ready to embark on. “Roman, it’s okay,” He starts gently, trying to wrack his brain for anything to say “You’re not unnatural, or broken, and you...you can’t keep living like this,”
Patton returns then, tossing his phone onto the table and running a hand through his curly brown hair. “Is it about...?” He asks both Logan and Roman nod. The eldest sighs and sits cross-legged on the carpet, offering his hand for Roman to take. He does, and Patton squeezes it gently “Roman you’re not broken,” He says it with such sincerity that even Logan swallows dryly, looking away with a sigh resting in his chest. “You’re not, there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s okay not to want to have sex,” The youngest stiffens slightly at even the word, his eyes screwing closed as tears well in them.
“Patton is correct, statistically you’re not even remotely an anomaly, reportedly 1% of the population is asexual, that’s the same amount as intersex people or redheads, and roughly 75 million people,” Roman blinks at Logan, tears trickling slowly down his cheeks. That is a lot of people, his heart jumps in his chest.
“I...I feel wrong,” He whispers. His voice cracked and hoarse and tired. “I feel like I’m just faking it or it’s not valid and there’s always so many arguments over it, there’s no such thing as a safe space for asexuals because there’s always just constant arguing over it,” He sniffles and rubs his eyes with his hand. “I just want to live, and be happy, and I can’t,”
He sounds so frustrated, so exhausted and it makes the other two occupants of the room glance at each other. “I will never be able to be okay with what I am because there is no room for me to learn to be okay with it, there’s nowhere for me to go to get help, I don’t have access to any form of community because I don’t even feel welcome in the LGBT community and I don’t think I deserve to be in it, so for the rest of my life I’m probably just going to have to shut up and deal with it,”
“No, you don’t,” A black hoodie drapes itself over Roman’s shoulders. None of them had quite heard the door opening and closing, but Virgil simple slides onto the couch, wrapping his earphone buds around his phone. Roman grasps the hoodie like a blanket. “Roman, you need to grow a spine,”
“Virgil!” Patton hissed.
“Shush I’m talking,” Roman’s attention goes to Virgil and Logan leans back to listen “You do, you’ve spent years wallowing in this, and it isn’t getting you anywhere, Logan can give you all the statistics in the world, and Patton can bake you all the sympathy cookies he can but it is you and only you who can make a difference,” Roman swallows and nods “You are you, there is no one else in the world that can be you, so you can hide here forever or you can start unlearning your own acephobia because we can’t do that for you,” Logan hums slightly behind him.
“Virgil does have a point,” he adds “Whilst we can console Roman, in the long run, it isn’t beneficial to him,” Patton gives an exasperated sigh and throws his hands in the air in an ‘I give up’ sign. He’s not a fan of tough love.
“There is never going to be another you in the billions of years the Earth will rotate, so it’s time you start learning to make your mark, newsflash no matter who you are or what you do someone is always going to have a problem with you and that’s their problem, not yours, acephobes will always exist and this ‘community’ will always be bickering and infighting unless they’re getting pissed at pride,” Logan snorts slightly, and Patton bites back a small smile, but Virgil hasn’t finished yet. “Unless you’re a gold star gay, someones always going to be picking at your identity, it’s always going to happen and there is nothing you can do about that, and right now that probably makes you feel really fucking hopeless, and I get that, really I do, back in the day when I was coming out as Trans there was a lot of bullshit going on in the community,”
Roman smiles at him and nods “But you need to weaponize your hopelessness, you can’t drown yourself in it, you have a right to be yourself, and fuck anyone who tries to change that...metaphorically of course,” Roman laughs, it’s tearful and full of sniffles, but he laughs nonetheless. “You are your own person, Roman, you’re not just a guy that’s ace or a guy that likes other guys, you are you, you cannot let this define you and you cannot let assholes fill you up with self-hatred, you don’t deserve that,”
“In essence, what I think Virgil is trying to say is, we can love you to the ends of the Earth-”
“And we do!” Patton interjects
“Yes, we do, but we cannot really take away how you feel, only distract you, it’s something you have to learn to do yourself,” Logan finishes quietly “There will always be discourses, society is built on it, Humans need a reason to be angry at something all the time, and at some point you will be on the other end of that anger, but it’s statistically unlikely that it will be a constant, do you really want to live your entire life running away from yourself for the one or two offhand comments you will experience?”
Virgil nods “Thanks, that’s pretty much exactly what I was saying,”
There’s a long silence before Roman shakes his head “No...I don’t,” He sits up a little straighter and rubs the tears out of his eyes “I want to be me, I want to be happy, but how can I do that when...I hate who I am?”
“Well, first of all, you need to stop putting yourself in uncomfortable situations,” Logan offers “And then second of all you need to meet more people like yourself, we can only help objectively but people who will understand what you’re going through will be able to help more,”
“Then you need to train yourself to fight of self-depreciation,” Virgil adds, earning various snorts “Yeah, I know, pot calling the kettle and whatnot, but seriously, when you catch yourself being self-depreciating, try rewording your thoughts, train your brain to slowly stop seeing things as a burden with positive affirmation,”
“And also ask us for help,” Patton interjects “You keep hiding away and not talking to us, but we can always provide temporary distractions until you don’t feel so bad,” The other two hum in agreement at this. “We will always be there for you Roman, and I will bake you as many sympathy cookies as you need,” He squints at Virgil, who only chuckles in response.
“We will always be here for you,” Logan repeats, giving the tight half-smile he’s used to providing if it were anyone else they would think him to be insincere, but luckily they’d all learned how to read Logan a long time ago.
“Yeah, princey, unfortunately, you’re stuck with us,” Virgil snorts and holds out his arms, Roman sinks into them with a smile on his lips.
“Thanks guys,”
--
@analogical-mess // @unikornavenger // @mycatshuman // @creativity-killed-thekitten// @theresneverenoughfandoms // @charmingprincey // @aclickonapostwillchangeyourlife // @heck-im-lost//@k9cat//@stilljittery//@romansleftshoulderpad // @sanderssideslibrary // @max-is-tired//@therealmoshar//@punsterterry// @trashypansexual// //@demigodnamedathena//@sevencrashing//@misunderstood-shadow//@aphriteblack//@jemthebookworm//@sandersandthesides//@penguinkool//@georganabanana//@importantrunawaystudentstuff // @ao-koshka // @dangerous-doodle // @river-waterfall // @hell-or-high-waters // @no-sleep-gang-posts//@wxlcomxtothxjunglx // @marshmallow-the-panda // @flix-net
#sanders sides#prompt#roman sanders#virgil sanders#logan sanders#patton sanders#platonic fic#creativity-killed-thekitten
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When people say aphobia isn't real
My "friend" told me that she "just couldn't see me as asexual" because apparently ace people aren't allowed to make sex jokes. Because apparently I'm just her little fanfic character.
I was told that I couldn't be asexual because "I thought you said that you weren't a virgin" like yeah apparently you have to be a virgin to be ace. Not to mention I would still be a virgin if if wasn't for her stupid fucking friend, but I could go on an entire rant about that. Buts that's for a different day.
When I told my mom years ago that some kid said he was asexual she said "oh he only thinks that because he can't get any" and "he'll change his mind" he was fucking 12.
And all the times I hear "but it's unnatural to not want sex"
So don't give me that "But Apobia Doesn't Exist" bullshit because it fucking does. I have to hear this kinda shit all the fucking time. And I'm not even out to most people as ace.
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I don’t really know how to word this without immediately knowing that tumblr could accuse me of a fuckton of different buzzwords, but I’m going to try to anyways - and hopefully if any hyper-woke people find me, they’ll tell me how I should better word myself in the future instead of immediately calling me an abuse apologist or some shit.
But anyways, here’s a hot take - people of minority groups can be abusers. Sometimes, they can abuse people for their minority status. Sometimes, people lie about sexual assault. Sometimes, people use their mental health or identity or race or whatever as an excuse for being a despicable human being. How do I know? Because I’ve had it happen to me, over and over and over.
I am: a trans, LGBT+, mentally disabled + ill, DFAB person. I am also: a white, able-bodied fuckboy who lives in California, one of the most progressive states in the country, even in its conservative areas. I am on both sides of the spectrum, and the times when I see minority statuses being abused are usually from the groups that I’m a minority of.
For example, I was harassed (and arguably sexually abused, however because I couldn’t find those comments that could’ve made him face legal consequences for all he’s done, I struggle to say that this is the case - additionally, I was never his target, just my art) by an autistic man online when I was younger. It’s the reason why I can’t interact with the HT/TY/D fandom and why I won’t be seeing the third movie (keep in mind this happened right before the second movie, and I went to see that one because it legitimately interested me - this one seems heterosexual AND reminds me of my abuser’s dragon OC, which he guilt tripped me into drawing for him as his form of porn). He ruined an entire franchise for me because he harassed me so badly. He guilt tripped me in about how hard it was being autistic (and threw in some comments about how teens think they have it “so hard with their anxiety and depression” when “they really have no idea”, to a teenager struggling with identifying anxiety and depression - i didn’t believe that bullcrap but I did fall for his autism sob story) and convinced me to do art trades with him which were just redraws of my own stuff, and he’d repeatedly spam me and yell at me and guilt trip me to finish his work if I so much as read his note without responding. He drained my motivation for DeviantArt along with my love of a franchise. This man was also a serial harasser/spammer, he did this to MANY people, including other minors. I wasn’t a specific target - honestly, I think I was pretty low on his priority list, considering he only tried to come back a few times. The kicker? I’m pretty sure I’m autistic, even though I had no idea back then. At least, I sure do have a lot of symptoms of autism now that I look back.
Not good enough for you? Okay. How about the fact that a relative of mine tried to convince my aunt that she (my aunt, not the relative) was sexually abused by my paternal grandfather as a child, sending my aunt into a mental breakdown because she couldn’t remember anything like that and had no idea? My aunt is the weak link in our family, she’s adopted and felt othered for it, and lived away from the rest of our family for a long time. She recently started getting involved and just happened to be attacked by a known financial and mental abuser in our extended family right when she started getting back involved. I’m thankful that my dad and my uncles were able to help her get a better picture of her father. Keep in mind that I don’t have a positive image of my paternal grandfather, because he smoked and gave my dad + uncle health problems due to it - and I personally consider that an accidental form of child abuse, in a way. But he was NOT a fucking incestual pedophile. It infuriated me to hear that, despite never meeting him, and having a negative overall impression of him.
How about another? My step-step-grandmother (long story) has accused my deceased uncle of being a money-hungry monster and stealing all of her rightful money after his father/her husband died. We’re in a court case to get the inheritance we deserve from her now, but she only ever brought this up AFTER he passed away. When informed about his dead, she bitched about how he made her loose money, and how she was struggling despite using up all of my mom’s inheritance (from her step-father AND her mother). Because you know, that’s what you do when someone dies. My uncle was the only uncle on my mom’s side to make it to my birthdays, his family gave my mom and I a place to stay when we ended up stranded down south due to a bad head injury my dad got (also long story) and we didn’t have time to make it back home and we didn’t want to just leave my dad there. My uncle was probably the nicest, kindest family member I had. His funeral was the first funeral I went to, and there were TONS of people. He was a Christian man who lived by true Christian values, and plenty of people testified this at his funeral. People I’d never even met before. This old woman accused him of stealing her money (where did it go?? his wife is fucking broke now that he’s gone!), never caring enough to visit her, ect. This old woman, who never even responded to my birthday invitations let alone came, who never made any attempt to make a mutual outreach to us. She expected us to do all the work, and when we decided it wasn’t worth her ignoring and rejecting, we stopped. And then she accused us of abandoning her. This is an old woman, but she’s still an evil person - or an evil person who is now just a shell of evil, unable to even remember a time when she didn’t believe these lies that she told herself.
And don’t get me started on how this applies to ace discourse. Heaven forbid I compare the ace/aro experience to another LGBT experience! It’s only okay if I compare it to the straight experience (which i do btw, because i KNOW we benefit from homophobia unless we’re also sga) even though it has 99% more in common with the LGBP experience than the straight experience. This isn’t an inclusionist vs exclusionist thing - this is just COMPARISONS. It’s like saying murkrow looks like a crow - like yeah, no shit sherlock!! doesn’t mean murkrow is just the same as a real life fucking crow!!! And god, haven forbid you talk about real aphobia and how it affects real aspec people. Immediately every allo in the area will jump on you about how that’s just misogyny and rape culture and blah blah blah. Then what about when it happens to men? What about when it happens to nonbinary people? What about when it has literally nothing to do with gender or being forced to have sex, and is just a constant feeling of being othered and excluded? Forgotten and not believed? Constantly doubted that your experience is real? And then to be told that the very bigotry you suffered was just a part of a bigger issue, instead of specifically about a part of your identity....bullshit. There IS overlap in certain social issues. Race affects how homophobia and transphobia affects a person deeply. Same with misogyny and race. So of course there’s overlap. But to say that aphobia doesn’t exist, I’m sorry - I don’t say this lightly, but that’s unconscious gaslighting. (there is no better term than that - believe me, I looked. My point is that I don’t believe it’s intentional, but LGBP people, trans or not - you NEED to stop doing this. You ARE unconciously gaslighting aces and aros. This is not anecdotal, there are statistics and you refuse to believe them, despite pointing at just as credible statistics to prove your own points. You say we can’t use anecdotal evidence, but then go on to use it yourself. Intentional or not, you need to quit it.)
I really don’t want to talk about how race and this stuff intertwine because I really don’t have any experience with that as a white person. All I know is that groups of POC can be bigoted towards other groups of POC, and they can even be bigoted towards people of their own race.
Which leads me to the most important part of this post: The fact that minorities can abuse majority groups, even if its on the basis of their minority group, does NOT mean that minority groups are not oppressed.
Just because a few women lie about being raped, doesn’t mean that all women who say they were raped are lying. Just because an autistic person abused me, doesn’t mean that all autistic/mentally disabled people and mentally ill people are scary. Just because aphobia is real doesn’t mean that non-SGA aces and aros don’t benefit from homophobia to a certain degree. Just because homophobia kills doesn’t mean that aphobia isn’t just as real. Just because the LGBT community has a habit of gaslighting victims of aphobia doesn’t mean that the LGBT community oppresses the aspec community. Just because POC can discriminate against or even hold systemic power over another POC doesn’t mean that they aren’t both oppressed by white people.
Abuse is not oppression. Oppression is a repeated, prolonged offense of cruel and unjust control. None of my anecdotals “prove” that oppression for these groups isn’t real. Because I’m part of these groups, and it’s my opinion that it IS real. But my anecdotals are also still valid. It is not problematic to point out when someone uses their minority status to abuse and manipulate others. It is not problematic to call bigoted, cruel mentally disabled people problematic for being manipulative and abusive. Their disability is not an excuse. Their identity is not an excuse. Their experience may be a reason, but not an excuse. But neither is your experience. Let people talk about their individual experiences AND the wider issues of oppression as a whole. They don’t have to be opposite faces of the same coin, and it’s sad that we act like they do.
#stormy speaks#also i would just like to point out that ive never been abused by a person of color for their minority but i have by like every other group#just wanted to point that out incase anyone missed it#just. just sayin! just sayin @ racists!
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Hi:) i kinda have a favor to ask. I am currently writing a book& one of the characters is aromantic. I myself do not identify on the spectrum& only have one friend who does. I already consulted her but I want to hear about other peoples experiences too in order to get a better grasp of things. I love the character& I want him to be authentic& not some half-assed representation. I was hoping that maybe you could direct me to some resources? Or if you or any of your followers feel comfortable ++
++telling me about your/their own experience that would also be greatly appreciated!! I would love to hear about the process of realizing and/or accepting it, about any family related issues and also about how it possibly affects someones daily life (e.g. how does it feel if someone keeps asking why u still aint got a partner etc.) I know that all experiences are individual but i would love to hear about some. If this is rude in any way I m very sorry. Also dont feel obligated to publish this :)
That’s a very good attitude to take about writing an aro character, and I’m very glad you have an arospec person to consult as well, since it should help a lot. Here’s an ask we answered about a non-aro person writing an aro character, with many resources and basic tips. Here’s another, this one covering important tropes and pitfalls to avoid.
The question isn’t rude, but asking someone about how it feels to be out or how being aro affects their daily life can be very personal, so be careful and tactful if you choose to do so. Realizing you’re aro is going to be different for everyone, just like any other LGBTQIA+ identity. You may not be able to apply some of these scenarios to the world your character is in (ex. not having the internet in a fantasy book, or no aspec communities exist in a dystopian realm).
Some of the most common experiences I’ve seen for realizing you’re aromantic go along these lines:
“I found the term aromantic through asexual communities, both near the same time, and it clicked. The relief I felt was immense and I’m happy to have words to describe myself.” Most often for aroaces.
“I was exposed to the term aromantic years before I realized it fit me. I was in deep denial, both from other factors (could be sexual attraction, past relationships, trauma, wanting to be in a relationship, etc.) and amatonormativity.” Often for aro allosexuals and/or people who have tried to force themselves to have romantic feelings.
“It was very hard me for me to find a place for myself. The labels were small, hidden, and mocked/belittled/invalidated, and the journey to find something that fit me was long, but I’m glad I made it.” For people on the aromantic spectrum.
“I always knew I was different. I explored queer communities for a long time, switching between many different labels, but never feeling anything quite fit, before finding the term aromantic.”
“I never knew I was different. By finding the aromantic community, I became aware of the small things about myself I had pushed aside or ignored, because I didn’t believe it was possible to be the way I am.”
“I feel romantic attraction under certain conditions/rarely/in a certain way, so I didn’t believe it was possible for me to be aro, and felt alienated from the community. Later, I found labels that described my experience, and a group of people that understood what I went through, and I embraced my identity.” For arospecs.
“I knew of the term aromantic for a long time before I realized it was me. I questioned it, but due to incorrect/negative mindsets and amatonormativity, identified as many queer and arospec labels once I realized I wasn’t straight. Eventually, I pushed my denial aside, and embraced by aromantic identity.”
“I can’t be aromantic! I had a crush in 2nd grade!/There’s a person I think is cute!/I have sex!/I have strong feelings towards people! (usually squishes)/I want to date!/whatever bullshit excuse my mind threw at me during questioning. Eventually, I pushed through it, realized many of these were common experiences with names/labels in the aromantic community, and concluded I was aro.”
Family-related issues can be a bit more complicated. Just like any other LGBTQIA+ identity, it’s a personal choice to come out or not, with all kinds of factors contributing to the decision. I’ve seen many who have successfully done it, those who have been rejected, and those who will never come out. Fighting heteronormative and amatonormative stereotypes, ideals, and issues is fully individual and based on the family and the aro. Not to mention homophobia, transphobia, aphobia, or any other bullshit an aro’s got to deal with. Safety levels upon speaking up also vary; not everyone can be an activist. Handle this issue carefully.
As for daily life… being aro affects much of it, for many of us. It can affect which friends we have, what jobs we take, how we interact with people, what kind of partners and relationships we have, if any… everything, even in the smallest of ways. We know we’re different, we’re Others in the eyes of society. Romance is constantly marketed as something everyone always wants, must have, needs, and only the monsters, the aliens, the villains, the cold and broken and ugly don’t get a love interest at the end of the movie. The boy gets a girlfriend because he did a good job saving the world, right? Heteronormativity, misogyny, and amatonormativity intersect pretty neatly that way. This takes a toll on your mind over the years, the same way other anti-minority attitudes do.
The best way I can describe it is as a fundamental disconnect. It’s hearing people talk about their crushes and realizing you’ll never have a staple of the human experience, of growing up, of fitting in, that is so basic and ingrained it’s not even questioned. It’s realizing your friends will always value a romantic partner over you, no matter how close you are. It’s seeing wedding clothes and feeling sad, instead of hopeful or happy. It’s trying to find a song not about love, in vain. It’s watching a movie and not understanding why these two characters that stood next to each other are being shipped. It’s starting to loathe Valentine’s Day, for the constant reminders you’re different, so different no one even knows you’re here. It’s being so, so tired when people ask you why you haven’t kissed/dated/married yet, looking at you like you’re sad, or a child, or disgusting, or broken, or perverted. It’s realizing you don’t have the future everyone else sees as the ideal, and you don’t really know what kind of future you’ve got at all.
So yes, it can be depressing, but it can also be nice and fun, as shown in one of the asks I linked at the beginning. So don’t forget we’re not all gloomy discourse-plagued hermits, we’ve got personalities and stories and lives with many happy spots, just like any other person. One last thing, our resources page may help you as well!
Good luck writing your character; I hope they’re amazing!
- Mod Harley
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Response to @bigmeangatekeeper’s ‘Why I’m Exclusionist’ Page
So recently I came across by far one of the most bigoted exclusionists I’ve seen in a while, that being @bigmeangatekeeper. Normally I block and ignore these sorts of people but given the exceedingly harmful and frankly disgusting rhetoric espoused on this person’s blog, I felt it was necessary to make a formal response, even if the person in question isn’t going to listen to reason or care.
I’m going to be mentioning @herefortheace and @justaphobethings in this post for their reference, as the arguments presented here are common exclusionist rhetorics and also to share my resources with more inclusionist blogs.
DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to be a ‘callout’, not is it intended to call upon my followers/anyone to attack this blog. This is merely a response to tired old exclusionist rhetoric by an asexual who is sick of people legitimately trying to act like their gross views haven’t been time and time disproven. I also won’t be addressing this blog’s status as a truscum as that isn’t relevant to this post.
TW FOR RAPE/SEXUAL ASSAULT DISCUSSION AND RAPE APOLOGISM.
PAGE LINK
First thing’s first. While I do not automatically exclude LGBT aces, I exclude cishet aces AND homo/transphobic or homo/transphobia apologist aces. It’s not just about the cishets. It’s about so much more.
As stated hundreds of times before, there definitely are homophobic, biphobic, transphobic, sexist, and racist asexuals. There are also apologists for these asexuals. Absolutely no one is arguing that these are problematic people. However, exclusionists like to pretend that the occasional ‘bad’ asexual is somehow a representative of the entire community, to which I respond ‘how then do you feel about TERF lesbians or biphobic gay men?’ Because if a few bad members of a sexuality are enough to warrant that entire community being removed from the LGBT community as a whole, then this rhetoric should be applied to every single sexual orientation or gender identity. Yet, asexuals and aromantics get singled out for this time and time again. It’s almost like exclusionists are unwilling to admit that they just want to remove asexuals as a whole and are only grasping for excuses so much that they will use the occasional problematic ace as a gotcha to push forward their ideologies. It’s funny because half the time what exclusionists define as ‘homophobic asexuals’ are often either blatantly obvious trolls or minors simply making jokes or having fun with their identity.
Also, thank you for including SOME aces! We appreciate you soooo much for driving a wall between our community! /s
The standard of “SGA and trans” as requirement for entry to the LGBTQ community is used nowhere outside of aphobic tumblr, and it seems crafted specifically for the purpose of excluding aces, aros, NBs, intersex people, and others not deemed “gay enough”.
There are also many “SGA and trans” aces who are against the gatekeeping and feel that they are hated by these aphobes.
You’re not protecting me by being an ace/aro exclusionist.
What we hear when you say “I only support SGA Asexuals/Aromantics”
my favourite thing is when aphobes try to tell me that their aphobia doesn’t apply to me / affect me because “[i’m] queer for other reasons”
okay, you wanna know why I’m for including all aces in the LGBT+ community?
Why your acephobia and arophobia is really just bullshit
it really annoys me when I see Discoursers say they support LGBT+ aces, just not cishet ones.
when you say “i accept sga and trans aces and aros but not cishet aces/aros because they’re straight”
Suffering! Suffering?
when people ‘accept’ sga/mga/non-cis aces and aros, but not others, what it actually means is they accept the part of you that isn’t directly tied to your asexuality/aromanticism
if ur gonna fuckin claim those four letters cover them & the whole damn community, they sure as fuck can cover aces as well
“Ace discourse” is really a Tumblr-only thing
I’m a lesbian ace and I’ve never felt more worthless and disgusting than this ace discourse
The reason even trans and bi/gay/pan/etc asexuals get defensive when you talk about cishet aces/aros not being part of the LGBT+ community is because you’re erasing a part of our identity??
If you talk shit about aces/aros with the disclaimer “cishet” it still affects all aces. Saying “notably cishet aces should all go die” still makes all ace/aro people feel like they are being called out.
Your “discourse” is harmful to all asexuals. And PS, your rhetoric is literally indistinguishable from TWERF rhetoric.
It’s about the blatant homophobia, transphobia, and serophobia in the ace community.
Again, this may exist in some members of the community, but that does not magically erase the status of the community as being LGBT. If it did, TERFs lesbians would have caused the lesbian community to be no longer considered LGBT.
It’s about there being no consistent definition of asexuality, thus allowing literally anyone regardless of relationship status, libido, etc to claim the ace label, and thereby try to shoulder their way into the LGBT community.
There is a consistent definition of asexuality. It’s ‘a lack of sexual attraction’. Libido, relationship status, etc, do not have any role in the asexual label. This has been the definition of asexuality for years. Looking up ‘asexuality’ on Google literally explains this:
I found these in one quick search. What’s your excuse?
The reason there appears to be ‘no consistent definition’ is the fault of non-asexuals and exclusionists pushing their own definitions of what asexuality is so that they can later pretend that its the asexuals who are changing the definition. The idea that asexuals never have sex was a misconstruing of the description of sex-repulsed asexuals. The idea that asexuals don’t have a libido also came from this. Asexuals can and do masturbate (for pleasure or stress relief), have sex (for pleasure or to have children), etc. These are not related to the definition of asexuality.
Additionally, if the fact that there isn’t a consistent definition of asexuality bothers you, then why not address how bisexuals and pansexuals don’t always have a consistent definition for their sexuality either? Some bisexuals claim the bi label is only for men and women, some say it includes nonbinary people, some say bisexuality is a transphobic label compared to pansexuality, etc, etc.
It’s about asexuals telling traumatised people/mentally ill people/dysphoric people/autistic people/CHILDREN that they’re ace rather then encouraging them to consider other reasons why they might feel sex repulsed.
Telling an individual ‘have you considered you may be asexual’ is not the same that saying ‘you are asexual, no arguments, you just are’. A person suggesting a label is not forcing anyone to co-opt that label. In addition, sexualities are fluid. I know many people who identified as ace at a younger age and then identified differently at an older age. I know many people who are the reverse. Are there individuals who identified incorrectly as ace at one age and feel upset or angry about it? Absolutely. But that is not the fault of any asexual who suggested the label. And, again, sex repulsion is not the requirement for being asexual.
It’s about asexuals not understanding that asexuality is not comparable to other sexualities bc it’s about how you feel attraction instead of who you feel attraction to
“Human sexuality is the way people experience and express themselves sexually. This involves biological, erotic, physical, emotional, social, or spiritual feelings and behaviors. Because it is a broad term, which has varied over time, it lacks a precise definition.” From Wikipedia
A Definition of Sexuality
Sexuality is no longer just about ‘who’ you experience attraction to.
It’s about asexuals hypersexualising all other sexualities (most particularly gay people) and making us out to be fucking sex craved deviants
Citation fucking needed. Also, yet again, a few asexuals doing this (not that I have ever seen any aside from one extremely obvious troll doing this) is not somehow a representation of the entire community.
It’s about asexuals pushing the toxic and harmful split attraction model even though it’s been shown time and time again to allow people to explain away their internalised homophobia/biphobia, and encouraging microlabelling that just confuses people more and causes divisiveness in the community
What we call the split-attraction model was first described by Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, a gay advocate from the 1800s, as “disjunctive uranodioning”. (source) (credit to this post)
There is absolutely no evidence aside from exclusionist rhetoric to uphold the idea that the SAM is homophobic or toxic. Additionally the SAM is used by non-ace and non-aro people regularly - I am familiar with many people who make that distinction in their romantic and sexual orientations, such as one friend who is pansexual but heteroromantic (in that she will have sex with all genders but prefers to romantically date men). It seems your bigger issue is the existence of microlabelling, which while that is a debatable problem in this community, at the end of the day it really isn’t any of your business. The only real source of divisiveness in this community is gatekeepers like you.
It’s about asexuals erasing gay history and literally just fabricating false stories for asexual representation, usually at the expense of gay people
Citation needed, once again.
Asexuals recorded as “Group X” in the 1948 Kinsey Reports
What is asexual history? The 19th and 20th century
From The Westminster Review, a political magazine, in 1907; an essay by Helen Fraser called Women’s Suffrage, on how if women got the vote, butch and ace women were gonna dominate the whole thing and screw it up for all the Real Ladies.
The Spinster Movement, and how they were treated as queer
From “Feminism,” by Correa Moylan Walsh, 1917
the “aces/aros were part of the bi community until they very recently chose to split off, so stop telling them that they have never been queer or that they don’t belong in ‘the LGBT community’” masterpost
asexuality existed before David Jay and AVEN
“Where were you when…?” A History of Asexual Inclusion (Part One)
“Where were you when…?” A History of Asexual Inclusion (Part Two)
It’s about asexuals stealing autistic terminology, and creating false axes of oppression that make literally everyone who isn’t ace their oppressors
The ‘actuallyasexual’ tag supposedly being stolen from the ‘actuallyautistic’ tag was never proven to be a legitimate claim. Autistic people have repeatedly come forward saying that this was never the case. Since I am not autistic, however, I won’t press on this particular point. If anyone is autistic and has some information on this, please DM me.
It’s about adult asexuals literally acting like children and using the ‘uwu im a pure ace’ response
Citation needed. I’m sensing a trend here.
Any asexual who partakes in, excuses, or explains away this behaviour in the ace community is dangerous and could easily cause harm to the LGBT community.
Once again - TERF lesbians, transphobic gay man, etc. should also be included under this rhetoric if you’re going to treat asexuals this way, otherwise you’re just being a hypocrite.
Asexuals are not oppressed under homophobia or transphobia. The LGBT community was not built just to combat oppression, because that would mean women and POC would automatically be LGBT, which is absurd. The community was developed specifically so that SGA and non-cis people would have a place to get away from societal homophobia and transphobia, and to push back against legally instituted oppression, like fighting for gay marriage, and to get laws put in place that protect us from hate crimes.
Firstly, SGA (same-gender attraction) is a term that was used and is still used in Mormon conversion therapy, so as one can understand,a lot of people are very uncomfortable being labeled with this description.
Secondly -
“The LGBT community has always been about fighting homophobia and transphobia/we came together to fight homophobia and transphobia”
“Homophobia and Transphobia”: What does the LGBT+ community fight for?
The modern American movement was first known as the “gay community” when cis gay men refused to even accept lesbians, then the “gay and lesbian community”. (Good reading on the subject.)
“After the elation of change following group action in the Stonewall riots in New York, in the late 1970s and the early 1980s, some gays and lesbians became less accepting of bisexual or transgender people. Critics said that transgender people were acting out stereotypes and bisexuals were simply gay men or lesbian women who were afraid to come out and be honest about their identity. Each community has struggled to develop its own identity including whether, and how, to align with other gender and sexuality-based communities, at times excluding other subgroups; these conflicts continue to this day.” (source)
“From about 1988, activists began to use the initialism LGBT in the United States. Not until the 1990s within the movement did gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people gain equal respect.” (ibid)
These are scans of a gay magazine from 1999 showing that 48% of those surveyed did not believe that trans people should be a part of the gay community.
The community’s boundaries have always been in flux
Insisting that LG people have always been accepting of bi and trans people is incredibly revisionist and does a great deal of injustice to those who have been excluded.
While I agree that asexuals go through some discrimination, ‘aphobia’ is not an axis of oppression because it is not institutionalised. The discrimination asexual and aromantic people face is based within rape culture, toxic masculinity, traditionalist values, and misogyny.
You sound like transphobic sexists who claim trans men do not experience transphobia that is specific to trans men (transmisandry) much in the same way that trans women experience transphobia specific to trans women (transmisogyny).
First of all, what do you use as the definition of ‘institutionalized’?
Second, why are you acting like asexuals are seen as some ‘other’ group rather than a part of the LGBT community when institutionalized discrimination is being discussed?
Third, ‘institutionalized discrimination’ was never a requirement to be LGBT. By that logic, a gay man who lives in a country/state where gay marriage is legal, conversion therapy is banned, and who has never experienced any form of anti-LGBT discrimination in his life is straight. That’s an asinine proposition.
For some examples of asexual-specific discrimination -
“My parents keep telling me that I’m something else, and it’s making me doubt my sense of judgement, not just about my sexual identity, but also about everything in general.”
“My family, friends, and co-workers keep referring to me as an inanimate object in a manner that’s clearly meant to humiliate and devastate me. Nothing I say will get them to stop.”
“My parents vocally/bodily forced me to undergo medical examinations, some of them concerning my sexual organs, many of them concerning blood tests and other trauma-centric procedures.”
“My family is intervening with my private life by changing my schedule to include exercise, socialization, friend influences, and whatever they think can ‘change’ me.”
“My friends/co-workers no longer respect my bodily boundaries when I came out to them, because they no longer see me as someone who should be respected. They regularly touch, fondle, grope, and prod me without permission, and/or verbally harass me, and don’t take my objections seriously.”
“My family, friends, and co-workers no longer just harass me, but also anyone I’m currently dating because they view my significant other as pathetic, underserved, or even being abused.”
“My date got irrationally angry and confrontational when I came out to them, in a manner that made me fearful.” (SO many of these.)
“My date immediately lost any respect they had for my boundaries, no longer asked for consent, and {tried to} force themselves upon me.” (A lot of these, too)
“My date tried to verbally circumvent any boundaries and issues I confessed to, and it made me feel like I was in danger.”
“I didn’t come out to my date at first, and when they found out, they radically changed their behavior in an attempt to control and manipulate our new relationship to their benefit.”
“My partner has forcefully and radically changed our long-term relationship after finding out about my asexuality, and I’m now trapped and controlled in a way that I wasn’t before.”
“My partner broke up with me/is fighting with me because of my asexuality, and trying to make it seem like I’m hurting them. It’s made me doubt myself and my ability to trust my own intentions.”
“My partner is slowly changing from what was once supportive of my asexuality, and I’m wondering when I have the right to be worried and when I’d be overreacting. I’m aware of the worst case scenario, but I also worry that I’m being selfish and childish - which are things I’ve been told all throughout my asexual experience.”
“I don’t trust my ability to say either yes or no in sexual situations, and this has extended to my life in general. I don’t feel comfortable in my ability to self-determinate.”
“The lack of authority, definition, and schooling of the concept of asexuality has made me very uncomfortable with what I think I am, and that uncertainty haunts me every waking moment.”
“I think it’s too late/too early to tell if I’m asexual, but the longer I hesitate, the worse my mental health and emotional wellbeing gets. I’m effectively stuck.”
“I see no benefit in coming out, or even identifying as asexual. There’s no positivity, role models, or supportive community for what I consider a big and scary part of my overall identity.”
“I think this was sexual abuse, but I’m wondering if I’m just being selfishand childish.”
“I think I was treated badly by my parents/friends/partner, but I’m wondering if I’m just being selfishand childish.”
“I want to believe that I’m deserving of equal freedom and human respect paid to other, not asexual people, but people tell me I’m being selfishand childish.”
“No one encourages this part of me. And that makes me feel forgotten and abandoned in general.”
Dr Gordon Hodson wrote this about his 2012 study:
In a recent investigation (MacInnis & Hodson, in press) we uncovered strikingly strong bias against asexuals in both university and community samples. Relative to heterosexuals, and even relative to homosexuals and bisexuals, heterosexuals: (a) expressed more negative attitudes toward asexuals (i.e., prejudice); (b) desired less contact with asexuals; and © were less willing to rent an apartment to (or hire) an asexual applicant (i.e., discrimination). Moreover, of all the sexual minority groups studied, asexuals were the most dehumanized (i.e., represented as “less human”). Intriguingly, heterosexuals dehumanized asexuals in two ways. Given their lack of sexual interest, widely considered a universal interest, it might not surprise you to learn that asexuals were characterized as “machine-like” (i.e., mechanistically dehumanized). But, oddly enough, asexuals were also seen as “animal-like” (i.e., animalistically dehumanized). Yes, asexuals were seen as relatively cold and emotionless and unrestrained, impulsive, and less sophisticated.
When you repeatedly observe such findings it grabs your attention as a prejudice researcher. But let’s go back a minute and consider those discrimination effects. Really? You’d not rent an apartment to an asexual man, or hire an asexual woman? Even if you relied on stereotypes alone, presumably such people would make ideal tenants and employees. We pondered whether this bias actually represents bias against single people, a recently uncovered and very real bias in its own right (see Psychology Today column by Bella DePaulo). But our statistical analyses ruled out this this possibility. So what’s going on here?
If you’ve been following my column, you’ll recall that I wrote a recent article on what I called the “Bigotry Bigot-Tree” – what psychologists refer to as generalized prejudice. Specifically, those disliking one social group (e.g., women) also tend to dislike other social groups (e.g., homosexuals; Asians). In our recent paper (MacInnis & Hodson, in press), we found that those who disliked homosexuals also disliked bisexuals and asexuals. In other words, these prejudices are correlated. Heterosexuals who dislike one sexual minority, therefore, also dislike other sexual minorities, even though some of these groups are characterized by their sexual interest and activity and others by their lack of sexual interest and activity.
This anti-asexual bias, at its core, seems to boil down to what Herek (2010) refers to as the “differences as deficit” model of sexual orientation. By deviating from the typical, average, or normal sexual interests, sexual minorities are considered substandard and thus easy targets for disdain and prejudice. Contrary to conventional folk wisdom, prejudice against sexual minorities may not therefore have much to do with sexual activity at all. There is even evidence, for instance, that religious fundamentalists are prejudiced against homosexuals even when they are celibate (Fulton et al., 1999). Together, such findings point to a bias against “others”, especially different others, who are seen as substandard and deficient (and literally “less human”). “Group X” is targeted for its lack of sexual interest even more than homosexuals and bisexuals are targeted for their same-sex interests.
From news coverage of a recently published study (2016):
What should the average person take away from your study?
Since I first became interested in the issue, I have come to conclude that U.S. society is both “sex negative” and “sex positive.” In other words, there is stigma and marginalization that can come both from being “too sexual” and from being “not sexual enough.” In a theoretical paper, I argued that sexuality may be compulsory in contemporary U.S. society. In other words, our society assumes that (almost) everyone is, at their core, “sexual” and there exists a great deal of social pressure to experience sexual desire, engage in sexual activities, and adopt a sexual identity. At the same time, various types of “non-sexuality” (such as a lack of sexual desire or activity) are stigmatized.
For this particular study, I identified thirty individuals who identified as asexual and asked them first, if they had experienced stigma or marginalization as a result of their asexuality, and, second how they challenged this stigma or marginalization. I found that my interviewees had experienced the following forms of marginalization: pathologization (i.e. people calling them sick), social isolation, unwanted sex and relationship conflict, and the denial of epistemic authority (i.e. people not believing that they didn’t experience sexual attraction). I also found that my interviews resisted stigma and marginalization in five ways: describing asexuality as simply a different (but not inherently worse) form of sexuality; deemphasizing the importance of sexuality in human life; developing new types of nonsexual relationships; coming to see asexuality as a sexual orientation or identity; and engaging in community building and outreach.
I hope that average people would take away from this study the idea that some people can lead fulfilling lives without experiencing sexual attraction but can experience distress if others try to invalidate their identities.
Some of the social isolation we aspecs experience comes from religious communities. Indeed, the popular myth that religious people revere aspecs is very much NOT TRUE. For example, read “Myth 8″ from the VISION Catholic Religious Vocation Guide:
MYTH 8: Religious are asexual
Question: What do you call a person who is asexual?
Answer: Not a person. Asexual people do not exist.Sexuality is a gift from God and thus a fundamental part of our human identity. Those who repress their sexuality are not living as God created them to be: fully alive and well. As such, they’re most likely unhappy.
All people are called by God to live chastely, meaning being respectful of the gift of their sexuality. Religious men and women vow celibate chastity, which means they live out their sexuality without engaging in sexual behavior. A vow of chastity does not mean one represses his manhood or her womanhood. Sexuality and the act of sex are two very different things. While people in religious life abstain from the act of sex, they do not become asexual beings, but rather need to be in touch with what it means to be a man or a woman. A vow of chastity also does not mean one will not have close, loving relationships with women and men. In fact, such relationships are a sign of living the vow in a healthy way. Living a religious vow of chastity is not always easy, but it can be a very beautiful expression of love for God and others.
Religious women and men aren’t oddities; they mirror the rest of the church they serve: there are introverts and extroverts, tall and short, old and young, straight and gay, obese and skinny, crass and pious, humorous and serious, and everything in between. They attempt to live the same primary vocation as all other Christians do: proclaiming and living the gospel. However, religious do this as members of an order that serve the church and world in a particular way. Like marriage and the single life, religious life can be wonderful, fulfilling, exciting, and, yes, normal. Yet, it also can be countercultural and positively challenging. It’s that for us and many others.
If you thought religious life was outdated, dysfunctional, or dead, we hope you can now look beyond the stereotypes and see the gift it is to the church and world.
NOTE: YOU CAN BE A GAY CATHOLIC PERSON BUT NOT ASEXUAL, BC ASEXUALITY DOESN’T EXIST (yet somehow we’re also “most likely unhappy” and “oddities”). I sincerely hope and believe that not all religions characterize us aspecs this way. But here are some personal accounts I found on a reddit site answering the question “Do any religions have a negative stance toward asexuals?”:
Please note that the Christian pastor in the last example was fearful (or something?) that an asexual was helping to lead a youth group and kicked them out of the church as a result.
(Not to mention that there is now a published dissertation with a whole chapter dedicated to understanding why a-spec people have been erased from history and virtually invisible up until recently, which is a very real issue in this debate that cannot be ignored).
This argument is as tired as the rest of the ones you’re putting out. And since i know you’re just going to ignore this with some backhanded commentary -
If we give primary sources based on lived experiences (which is the basis of qualitative research, which founded so much of the fields of psychology, sociology, anthropology, and more, and is still used today as a very common research practice), such evidence is dismissed because it’s not academic or in a news publication. Never mind that this practice of citing tumblr blogs for personal experiences is similar in practice (if not as rigorous) as netnographic research (a practice developed by Rob Kozinets, whose book on it has close to 1500 google scholar citations, and whose seminal article on it has over 2000).
If we give articles from press outlets, they are dismissed as commercial and therefore not acceptable. (I could find a lot more of this, but look, it’s happened a lot and not main point here).
If we give academic citations, such as the study that was published a few years ago (what I’ve seen referred to as’ the Group X study’ by discoursers), they are dismissed (read, not ‘debunked’ because that is a different thing) because popular press such as psychologytoday.com dared to cover the story, or because they don’t believe the need for such study exists, and because someone hadn’t read the original research so felt free to critique it’s methods (????). Slightly more legitimately, I’ve seen it dismissed based on the use of convenience samples (though I can’t find the link), but it’s worth pointing out that the actual research also used a sample drawn from the general public. And if you’re dismissing a study based on the use of a convenience sample, you can also throw out about 90% of academic research done in psychology and related fields in the past 40 years. Almost all research uses convenience sampling, and this study actually went beyond that anyway.
(For the record, that study also goes a long way to explain why intra-community aphobia exists, if you read the full article, and finds that the more biased people are also more right-wing authoritarian and endorse social-dominance orientation, basically meaning they “endorse dominance and inter-group hierarchies”).
Source with more information
Literally every argument for ace oppression, like corrective rape for example, is not ace exclusive. On the other hand, gay and trans people face specific pointed prosecution for being non-cis or SGA.
“The term ‘corrective rape’ was coined by South African lesbians and should only be used by lesbians”
No one means any disrespect to lesbians or other victims of corrective rape, but this is not a correct statement.
“We’ll Show You You’re a Woman” describes the violence directed towards LGBT people in South Africa, stating, “Negative public attitudes towards homosexuality go hand in hand with a broader pattern of discrimination, violence, hatred, and extreme prejudice against people known or assumed to be lesbian, gay, and transgender, or those who violate gender and sexual norms in appearance or conduct (such as women playing soccer, dressing in a masculine manner, and refusing to date men).” It goes on to say, “Much of the recent media coverage of violence against lesbians and transgender men has been characterized by a focus on “corrective rape,” a phenomenon in which men rape people they presume or know to be lesbians in order to “convert” them to heterosexuality.”
The Wikipedia article on corrective rape in South Africa states that, “A study conducted by OUT LGBT Well-being and the University of South Africa Centre for Applied Psychology (UCAP) showed that “the percentage of black gay men who said they have experienced corrective rape matched that of the black lesbians who partook in the study”.”
It is not only lesbians, but also bisexual women, transgender men, gay men, and gender non-conforming people in South Africa who experience corrective rape. This is not in any way meant to minimize the horror of the epidemic or shift attention away from lesbians, but other victims, including asexuals, deserve attention as well. Do not silence or speak over victims of rape by policing their language.
And regarding ace-specific discrimination, I provided a wall of it, if you’d like to scroll up and read it again.
I’ve been beaten bloody while called a fag and a tranny and left for dead. I’ve had a guy rape me while aggressively misgendering me and telling me what a freak cuntboy I was. Those attacks were specifically because I’m trans and gay. Ace people are attacked because they won’t have sex, not because they’re ace. It’s just good old fashioned rape, there’s no hate crime element I guarantee it.
I’m very sorry that happened to you.
I was repeatedly molested by my first boyfriend because he told me that “wouldn’t be ace anymore when he was done with me”. I’ve been punched, thrown to the ground, and had my nose broken because I wore an asexual flag pin on my backpack, with people calling me a disgusting queer. My girlfriend of five years, the person I intended to marry, cheated on me with a mutual friend because I was asexual and ‘didn’t validate her body’. And, as I already shown, my experiences are commonplace for asexuals. Your trauma, as horrible as it is, does not give you any right to say that an asexual who is raped and told “I’ll fix you” is not ‘good old fashioned rape’.
Please read this and tell me about how there’s no hate crime element to it:
“‘I just want to help you,’ he called out to me as I walked away from his car,” she explained. “He was basically saying that I was somehow broken and that he could repair me with his tongue and, theoretically, with his penis. It was totally frustrating and quite scary.”
Sexual harassment and violence, including so-called “corrective” rape, is disturbingly common in the ace community, says Decker, who has received death threats and has been told by several online commenters that she just needs a “good raping.”
“When people hear that you’re asexual, some take that as a challenge,” said Decker, who is currently working on a book about asexuality. “We are perceived as not being fully human because sexual attraction and sexual relationships are seen as something alive, healthy people do. They think that you really want sex but just don’t know it yet. For people who perform corrective rape, they believe that they’re just waking us up and that we’ll thank them for it later.”
“There is a real fear even among the asexual community that people who identify as anything other than heterosexual will be harassed and assaulted,” wrote “Angela,” a self-identified aromantic ace. “They have a reason to be upset and a reason to be afraid, it has happened to many people before.”
In response to the post, an anonymous user wrote, “[A]sexuality is not a thing. You are just ugly and no one wanted to date you, so you made up a thing to cuddle your lonely self as you cry into your pillow. Also, I hope you get raped. It has a dual benefit, you’ll get laid finally AND put you into your place as well.”
The comment triggered a firestorm, with some asexuals speaking out and sharing their own experiences involving sexual violence.
Asexuals and ace activists say the conversation about sexual assault in the asexual community is part of the wider societal discussion about rape culture generally and about corrective rape in the queer community specifically. They also say it speaks to a bias and an invisibility that asexuals face in everyday life.
Source
Asexuals and aromantics are notoriously homophobic, transphobic, and serophobic in their arguments. I personally have seen them say things about inclusionists like ‘I hope they get antibiotic resistant gonorrhoea and crabs in the same week’ (actual quote), I’ve been told ‘you probably have aids’ because I’m a gay man, I’ve seen them argue that non-ace people can’t be raped because we constantly want sex and have had my own assaults denied, etc. This wasn’t just one incident, it’s a pattern. Over and over ace people wish violent sexual threats on non-ace people. They call us disgusting. They call us filthy. They call us ‘the oppressive monogays’ and ‘filthy allos’. I’ve had them go so far as to fling homophobic slurs at me, and say we deserved the aids crisis. Sorry, but any group that is totally fine with even some of its members being that actively, unabashedly homophobic has absolutely no place in this community. I wouldn’t let my grandfather who called me a pathetic fag into the community either, no matter how much sex he did or didn’t have.
I like how you say ‘actual quote’ and yet do not provide a single link, screenshot, or even falsified anonymous message as proof of this.
For the 100th time - the behavior of a few asexuals does not represent the entire community, otherwise TERF lesbians, transphobic gay men, biphobic trans people, etc, would mean their entire community are no longer considered LGBT.
Would you like a glimpse at some of the behavior exclusionists that are ‘real LGBT’ bestow on asexuals?
Comparing aces and aros to Trump (and pretending this is funny)
Comparing aces to Pence
Comparing aces to Ronald Reagan (and pretending this is funny)
Comparing aces to a literal slave owner
Making fun of aces not being accepted by their parents and of aces finding this upsetting (making it into a crytyping “joke”)
Making aces feel shitty/shaming them for telling their parents they’re ace because it’s supposedly “unnecessary”
Saying if we tell family about being ace, it’s no wonder if they send us to therapy
Doing their best to sexualize the orientations of aces, in so many cases. The link before these two is also connected to that. They treat our orientations like (graphic) details about “our sex lives”, frequently acting like if we want to talk about them ever we’re gross/creepy
This one is also “nice” re sexualizing aces (one of many examples of ppl also engaging in sex-shaming while they’re at it, saying only one’s partner should know anything about one’s “relationships with sex”. Except this person goes kinda even further)
More sexualization, when I say this freaks me out as a WoC, I’m told this white person gives no fucks and wants me to be miserable
Another person who says the identities of aces but also of aros need to stay between them and their Partners because they’re “TMI” and inherently sex-shaming somehow
Oh yeah did I mention, much the same with sexualizing aros and ppl frequently link our identities to misogyny and to using people while they’re at it
Making light and fun of ace WoC asking to not be sexualized because don’t we know aces have done Bad things and so we deserve it/don’t get to complain
One of many examples of white people who hate aces+aros talking over PoC and trying to erase us from our communities (+usually when we call that shit out they don’t care. This is actually one of the more cordial responses I’ve come across despite the lack of apology lol. [Eta: my wording here was misleading before, they weren’t talking to me - I’d also called them on this but they ignored me. Sorry for the confusion!] Also, I have a tag somewhere with several non-black/white ppl who made Rachel Dolezal comparisons to shit on aces/aros). Another example of talking over us here complete with condescendingly lecturing a PoC about racism
People like this saying outright they hate aces
Saying sex ed shouldn’t teach about asexuality
Outright stating they think being ace/aro gives people privilege (because supposedly aces+aros both benefit from conservatives pushing for abstinence)
Outright invalidating the identities of aces (who don’t have the attitude towards sex they think they should have)
Calling asexuals demons
Outright calling aces and aros a “plague” and saying aces/aros regardless of other identities all need to be kicked out of the LGBT+ community.
Erasing the identities of people who speak out against anti-ace/aro shit to declare them “straight” or “cishet” …or saying that treatment is what they get for being “traitors to their own community”
Ignoring the boundaries of aces/aros who have them blocked and don’t want to be vagued to make fun of them …
…or even to continue sexualizing them after they have made it very clear that shit freaks them out (cheerfully doing this to a WoC)
Someone saying asexuality does not exist and “encourages slut shaming”
Spamming the ace positivity tag with vile hate (ppl have talked a lot about how this harms and endangers especially mentally ill ppl)
“aces are embarassing“ in the positivity tag
Posting nsfw content in the ace positivity tag and being completely unapologetic, apparently using the reasoning that our identities are inherently nsfw anyway (see the “TMI discourse” aka people sexualizing our identities)
Calling aces and aros a “sexuality fandom” while pretending we’re a group full of people with every privilege imaginable, bored of being accepted by everyone and of having no Actual Problems in our lives. This kind of nasty erasure constantly goes on and is a big tactic in this mess tbh
Wanting aces to be “exterminated”. For good measure putting this in the ace positivity tag
This disgusting vile shit that I don’t even know how to sum up but it includes wishing death on someone
Talking about wanting aces/aros dead after somehow misunderstanding(?) a post that was very clearly not about asexuality or aromanticism
Graphically telling aces to die
Specifically telling ace kids to kill themselves
Did I mention that many people in this mess have wished death on aces and aros and that they often put it in positivity tags. Some of the most messed up shit I’ve seen is missing because I didn’t reblog/respond to it at the time or can’t find it right now
And I know anons don’t count as hard “proof” for anything but have the less graphic one of the death/rape threats I got in my inbox for speaking out against anti-ace/aro shit (still kinda eerily detailed though. Not linking the other one because it is extremely graphic)
Comparing aces to a literal white supremacist (in the positivity tag)
Again someone invalidating the identities of aces who don’t have the attitude towards sex they think they should have
Sexualizing aros again, not caring about how it affects particularly aro PoC. And here two other ppl sexualizing and demonizing aros, like in posts further above claiming (non-ace) aros just use people for sex (said on positivity post).
Someone sexualizing aces again and engaging in sex-shaming at the same time, as usual with the claim that literally no one but a partner “needs” to know our orientations
Those Rachel Dolezal comparisons I mentioned made by non-black/white people who want to use antiblackness for what they call “ace discourse”?Yeah here is one white person doing it and here is another, even worse example where a white person goes “this is like if I pulled a Rachel D. and put on blackface and used the n-word…” (paraphrasing here). Here is the latter person utterly dismissing me being upset by their antiblackness (because black ppl’s pain only matters when it’s useful)
[For ppl who don’t know: Rachel Dolezal is a white woman who pretended to be black and built her career on it. White people sure as hell do not get to compare this shit to anything that is not antiblackness and use black people’s pain for their own purposes.]
A white person using antiblackness as a weapon against aces and aros in general (aka “ace tumblr”), acting smug regarding how supposedly we’re all so racist and “get triggered” by black people existing. (I am so tired of white ppl using racism as a cheap “gotcha” against aces and aros - groups which include PoC. And who then ignore or belittle PoC who call them out)
White person randomly informing WoC aces/aros can have white privilege
Again someone claiming ace privilege exists and here another person doing it adding to the post further above, claiming aces/aros have privilege for being ace/aro and that this is the case bc people who don’t have sex are privileged (wrong definition of asexuality… also of aromanticism??… and also no. No.)
What I mentioned about ppl telling us asexuality/aromanticism are not orientations but only ever modifiers? It’s happened a lot but here’s one example. And here’s someone outright saying aro aces don’t have an orientation but only modifiers.
Here’s the same person who said aro aces don’t have an orientation later turning around saying the orientation of aro aces is determined by how they behave and who they have sex with.
Another person putting nsfw shit in the ace positivity tag (link is to nsfw text)
And people try really hard to justify despising aces and aros by pointing to shitty people who share our identities/orientations. Honesty is secondary in this. Here you have someone taking a shitty post from an obvious nasty troll blog to say this is why ppl hate aces, and later when having the troll thing pointed out to them saying they already know. The post got over 3k notes.
“asexual shouldn’t even be a way people identify themselves”, with a second person in the thread agreeing
If you’re interested, some way back I also made a link-less post that is important to me talking about how nasty and harmful the racism and erasure of ace and aro PoC in all this has been
These are not even referring to more recent horrors that the exclusionist community has forced down our throats.
They don’t have a coherent definition of asexuality. Literally there’s no cohesive definition. None. Some of them say it’s people who feel no sexual attraction, some say it’s people who feel no sexual desire, some say you can have and enjoy sex and still be totally valid uwu, some say you can only have sex to please a partner, some say you have to be sex repulsed, the list goes on and fucking on. If we let in a group that has a definition that’s this fucking loose, we are opening the door for literally anyone to shoulder their way into this community.
I’ve already addressed this. There is a consistent definition. One Google search gets you that definition.
And even if there wasn’t, or if certain people reframe the definition to better mesh with their own personal experiences, why are you not extending this same rude-ass rhetoric towards bisexuals and pansexuals who constantly argue over the definitions of bi- and pansexuality? Why are you not extending this towards cis lesbians who argue if trans women can or cannot be WLW? Why are you not extending this towards cis gay men who argue if trans men can or cannot by MLM?
No one is ‘shouldering’ their way into any community. The asexual community is already a part of the LGBT movement. They’re not leaving just because you make rude posts like this.
Almost every single exclusionist I’ve spoken to has thought at some time or another that they were ‘demisexual’ or ‘grey-ace’ or some other bullshit ‘aspec’ term.
Exclusionists who do identified or have identified as asexual are not some sort of ‘gotcha’ for how the asexual community is bad. Once again, ace people expressing their experiences and suggesting to someone ‘you might be ace’ are not somehow homophobic or forcing people to be LGBT any more than the people in my life who told me I may be trans or agender were transphobic or forcing me to be trans or agender. If someone no longer identifies as asexual because of any given reason, that isn’t the fault of the asexual community for expressing that the option exists.
Have you ever spoken to an asexual who first found out about the definition of asexuality? Let me share my experience - when I first discovered the definition of asexuality and realized ‘oh, that’s me’, I sobbed tears of joy and relief for hours. I spent ages pouring over asexuality resources and participating in forums and embracing my new identity. And my experience isn’t some one-off thing - if you look into asexuality forums and websites, this is something many of us experience. In a world so overcharged with sexuality and people constantly telling us ‘you’re broken’, ‘you’ll find the right person’, etc, etc, an allosexual will never ever know what it’s like to have this feeling of relief that an asexual experiences when they first find out that’s an option.
Asexuality isn’t a spectrum. You either want sex/feel attraction to some degree (non-ace) or you don’t (ace). You don’t need a label for not wanting to fuck strangers. In fact, most people don’t want to fuck strangers. Demisexual is the norm!
“Why is there no coherent/consistent definition of asexuality???”
“Here is my (wrong) definition of asexuality! If you disagree with it you’re a homophobe!”
And that’s why the ‘asexual community’ should never be allowed in bc it’s an excuse for cishet people who don’t like hookups to invade spaces that were specifically made to get away from cishets.
We’re already allowed in. The ace community isn’t some out-group trying to get into the LGBT community. We’re here, and we’re staying, even when whiny exclusionists like you try to make these gotcha-style posts. Asexuals aren’t cishets, no matter how much you cry about it.
“Straight” isn’t a sexual orientation, it’s a position of power.
A-Spec Identities are Not Secondary.
Invisibility is Not a Privilege.
“passing privilege” is not a real thing.
Straight-passing privilege: a myth
Bad arguments against allowing a-spec to identify as queer
Having your identity erased is not a privilege.
asexuality, like bisexuality, is deliberately misunderstood by out groups in order to exclude us.
ace/aro people don’t “only” experience attraction to the ‘opposite gender’ or any other. that’s the point. we also experience a lack of attraction, either romantically or sexually, and that lack of attraction is part of our identity.
Straight is not default.
How many straight people do you know that want to kill themselves because of their orientation?
The closet is not a privilege
On that point—you can absolutely be ace and cishet. First of all, you can be asexual, cisgender, and heteroromantic (or aromantic, cisgender, and heterosexual). That’s pretty obvious. If you can have gay ace people, you can have straight ones. But that’s not even the most important point.
Yes, you can be a ‘cishet ace’, in the contexts you described. The reason people despise being called ‘cishet ace’ is because it’s being referred to in the traditional ‘cishet’ context of ‘non-LGBT person’. Some het aces identify as straight. Some het aces don’t identify as straight, they identify as asexual, and it’s not your place to label them against their will. There is no world in which aroaces, people who experience no attraction to anyone, are straight.
Let’s talk about the marginalised sexualities in the LGBT community. Prior to the introduction of the wholly unnecessary, toxic, and damaging split attraction model (I’ll get into that on my next point), homosexual meant homosexual and homoromantic. The sexual suffix designated the sex of people you’re attracted to. Homo meaning same, thus, same sex attraction, because that’s how Latin works. Same for bi. Same for hetero, even. Asexual is the only one that attempts to redefine this system. It should mean a- (meaning none, or lack of), therefor attraction to no sexes. It’s pretty simple. But the pure aceys saw the sexual suffix and immediately thought ‘oh that means fucking right?’ And decided they had to change shit.
Once again, citation needed. Stop trying to redefine asexuality and speak on behalf of asexuals. Asexuality IS ‘attraction to no sexes’. You’re so desperate for material that you’re pulling shit out of your ass to pin on ace people.
The split attraction model is massively harmful. It encourages internalised homophobia and compulsive heterosexuality. My gay ass for AGES was like ‘I’m grey-ace homosexual biromantic uwu’ because I thought I couldn’t just be a filthy homo, I had to be special somehow, I had to make myself available to women in some way even if it wasn’t sexual availability. The SAM causes LOTS of developing LGBT kids to struggle with denying their own identities under the guise of embracing them through microlabelling. Among teenagers it’s almost like a damn contest, like who has the most obnoxious, convoluted label. It’s stupid and damaging.
Can you provide any non-tumblr sources about the SAM being problematic? Because I have only ever seen exclusionists on this hellsite trying to claim this. Additionally, your experiences are not universal, they are not a ‘gotcha!’ for the ace community, and they are not a valid argument. I spent 5+ years believing I may be transgender, before establishing I likely was not. I do not in any way blame the transgender community for making me think that way, because it was not the fault of any trans person for providing resources for me and supporting the possibility. Healthy exploration of one’s sexuality and gender is OKAY. It isn’t a bad thing, despite what exclusionists like to claim. If you identified one way for a while, and then no longer identify that way, that is HEALTHY EXPLORATION AND GROWTH, not internalized homo-/transphobia and not the fault of any asexual.
Also, the SAM is only commonly used amongst ace and aro people anyway, since it offers a chance for us to distinguish what kind of ace we are. If you can acknowledge that ‘cishet aces’ exist who are heteroromantic and asexual, then you shouldn’t have any issue realizing that biromantic, panromantic, homoromantic, etc aces also exist and may, you know, want to acknowledge that part of themselves? I am romantically interested in men and women - should I ignore the SAM and just call myself aro/ace anyway even when that isn’t an accurate description of who I am? Am I hurting myself by giving myself a more specific label?
Another serious topic I need to discuss: Ace advocates encouraging children and teens to identify as asexual. Literal children shouldn’t be experiencing sexual attraction. I’ve seen ace people telling a TWELVE YEAR OLD that she was asexual because she didn’t feel any interest in sex. She’s a child. Of course she didn’t. I was told when I was 14 that I was ace and I, being a vulnerable child, embraced the label and carried it til I was 17.
No one ‘encourages’ children and teens to identify as asexual, ESPECIALLY not children. Once again, someone saying ‘you might be ace’ is NOT forcing that label onto someone. YOUR EXPERIENCE IS NOT UNIVERSAL. YOUR HATRED FOR THE ASEXUAL COMMUNITY IS NOT A STANDARD.
I was 14 when I discovered asexuality. I was ruthlessly mocked in school for not having a boyfriend. Many people in my class were discussing how they had lost their virginity and the sexual endeavors they took part in. Yes, at FOURTEEN. 13+ year olds are not innocent children who do not experience any form of sexual attraction or libido. It is far more damaging for teenagers growing up to NOT know there is an option to be asexual and force themselves into dangerous and harmful sexual situations to ‘fit in’. The number of asexuals I know or have spoken to who were forced to have sex, send nude pictures of themselves, or otherwise been put in a sexual situation they didn’t want to be in, simply because they didn’t know that being asexual was a valid option that existed and thought they were broken, is immense. THAT is a unifying asexual experience that an allosexual will never understand.
The reason you can be too young to identify as asexual and not too young to identify as lesbian/gay/bi, is because LGB people experience attraction of ALL sorts to the gender(s) they are attracted to, and romantic attraction develops much earlier than sexual attraction (that’s why we have puppy love and not puppy lust). Asexuality as it is defined presently is purely about sexual attraction.
I thought you said there WAS no coherent asexuality definition? Can you at least try to have a coherent argument?
By your logic, 12 year olds who feel they are transgender and go on permanent body-changing hormone blockers/HRT that they may eventually regret are more valid than a 15 year old using the label of asexuality that they may eventually move away from without any damage. That is asinine.
Honestly it’s far more creepy that way exclusionists constantly talk about minors and sexuality. You guys are more obsessed with it than any asexual who suggests or acknowledges the existence of asexuality to someone.
Lastly, asexual and aromantic people absolutely deserve a sense of community, a sense of belonging. They absolutely need a place where they can interact with people who are like them! The problem is, LGBT people and ace/aro people don’t have that much in common. At all. We don’t face the same issues either. If LGBT people could make our community amidst serious legal and social ostracisation and oppression, without the help of the internet, ace/aro people can absolutely make their own community in the cyber age that is relevant to the issues they face so that they don’t talk over the serious topics the LGBT community discusses.
You cannot in one breath say “Asexuals are valid” and in the next deny their experiences. Spend five minutes in the community and you will see testimony after testimony from aces describing their abuse, their sexual assault(s), the countless times people have called them confused, broken, wrong, mentally ill, inhuman, sinful, and how these experiences have left them feeling hopeless, alone, alienated, subhuman, depressed, and suicidal. Almost every asexual out there will tell you a story of how their orientation has caused them pain and struggle, and you can’t call them valid while at the same time calling these experiences invalid and nonexistent.
Bonus: This is a list of all the mainstream LGBTQ groups that include asexuals.
Also, we do have our own community, because every letter in the acronym has its own community and yet is still part of the acronym, and yet you fucking shits won’t stop sending us hate and bombarding us with shit meant to trigger and harass us.
I genuinely don’t expect you to read or attempt to acknowledge any of this - that’s simply the way exclusionists are. However, you are wrong. You are not helping anyone by being an ace exclusionist. You are simply a vocal minority and a bigot - nothing more, nothing less.
A full list of resources and information can be found HERE for further reading.
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I Dare You To Stay: Chapter 7
alkfjfoijalkjdhfk I’m sorry this took so long for me to write but I was very busy and this got very long and I’m still not happy with it but here!!! read!!!
Tags for chapter: discussions and themes of aphobia, internalized aphobia, fluff, angst
Words for chapter: ~5.3k
Fic Summary: Dan Howell is a barista working a shitty job, frequenting his shitty apartment, and living a shitty existence, hiding his asexuality and going for a PHD in self-depreciation and depression. Phil Lester is a part-time intern, part-time employee at a local weather station, trying to get experience in his field and make a name for himself, while juggling a second job at the nearby Tesco’s to give him some financial breathing room. Their paths were never supposed to meet, but what happens when they do anyways, one rainy day in Manchester?
(ao3!)
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"Stop being so smiley, you arse. It’s 6:30AM and you’re at work. Smiling should be illegal."
Dan snorted, taking a break from pouring coffee beans to shove Jaime with his shoulder, but he didn't even try to help the smile on his face.
Jaime only scowled deeper in response, sticking out her pierced tongue.
���You should take that out,” Dan said. “Health and Safety. Plus, you don’t want to scare the grandpas with your metal appendages”.
Jaime snorted. "I hate you."
"No you don't."
"Yes, I do. Leave my life. Goodbye. Ciao."
"Fine, then I guess you'll have to dye your hair by yourself. And gee, who are you going to talk to during your shifts? Steve? God, I think he’d have to take up my shifts, which puts the two of you together almost all the time," Dan said, walking away, trying to keep the grin out of his voice. He wasn't very successful, however, but then again, he hadn't actually tried very hard, either.
Jaime threw a cloth at him. It landed on his face, then fell to the ground.
“Health and Safety!” Dan screeched. “Is that floor mopped?”
She just rolled her eyes. "I've managed the first eighteen or so years of my life before you decided to jump in just fine without you, so go ahead, take your lanky ass outside along with your 'I'm getting off of work early' bullshit."
"Ahhh, the truth reveals itself," Dan tsked, shaking his head. “Jealousy is a sin, you know.” He was playing with her, and she knew it, but that didn't stop Dan from pulling out all of the stops, really hamming up his performance. He grabbed the keys off of the counter and walked to the glass entrance door, unlocking it and flipping over the sign to read: open.
Jaime was sitting on the counter, her arms crossed and that fake scowl of anger still on her face. Dan just pushed at her back, forcing her off.
"Come on, Grumps, we've got a job to do."
"We? What do you mean with that 'we'? You're the one leaving here early, Danny boy, so you get to do all the work this morning; it's only fair."
This time Dan was the one that scowled and Jaime just smirked, tapping his nose.
"Come on stupid, turn that frown upside down; Mary's about to walk in."
Dan sighed, drawing it out as much as possible, but immediately snapping out of it and throwing a smile on his face when he heard the bell chime on the store's door.
Mary was a sweet old lady that was at least in her 80's, and she always came into their coffee shop within the first few moments that they were open, everyday, without fail. She had the most acute sense of style, typically rocking your usual old lady jumper and pants, but every single day she had a different broach on. And before her, Dan hadn't even known that people wore broaches anymore. But nope, it appeared that Mary had no cares for which way fashion swayed, not to mention that she must have her own infinite supply of them to have a different one every day. Did she have some kind of broach dealer? Was that a thing?
Dan didn't really know the answer to that question, but she was incredibly kind and had pretty much adopted him and Jaime as her grandchildren, so Dan just made sure to compliment her on her choice of style.
She shuffled up to the counter, her usual smile already radiating even though it was way too fucking early for anyone to be doing anything instead of sleeping in Dan's opinion.
(Today her broach was a yellow-ish metal, an intricate flower melded into it. It looked like lavender.)
"Hello, love, how are you today?"
"Oh, hello, Mary. And I'm tired, but I'm doing fine, thank you." Dan said. He had already started making her coffee. She ordered the same thing every time.
"Tired? Daniel, what did I say about staying up late on the internet? You're a growing boy! You need your sleep!" she cried. Dan smiled, not missing how she called him 'Daniel', but it wasn't like Dan minded it, coming from her. She was like the grandmother Dan never had. Maybe that was why he liked her using his full name even if his nametag said 'Dan'. It was more personal.
"Sorry, Mary, it's a bad habit, I know. I'll break it one of these days, I promise."
"Hmm, will you, Daniel? I feel like you say that to me every morning." Mary wagged a finger at Dan as if to admonish him, but there was a twinkle in her eye. Dan shrugged, but his smile only got wider. He handed Mary her coffee (with extra milk) and she looked over next to Dan, where Jaime was leaning on the counter a little bit in the back.
"Jaime dear, tell me, you must do everything around here with how tired this boy is all the time, don't you?"
Dan and Jaime both laughed, and Jaime shook her head, taking a few steps forward, knocking her shoulder into Dan.
"Sometimes it certainly feels like that."
Mary paid for her coffee (they charged her half price and took turns covering the rest—but they'd never tell her) and she stayed for a few moments to talk with them. After telling Dan that he "better go to sleep earlier tonight" or he would be hearing from her, and telling the both of them to have a lovely day, she shuffled back out, her broach still sparkling and drawing on-looker's eyes.
After Mary's visit, things always took somewhere between a fifteen minutes and a half hour before business really started to go anywhere, but today was different, and almost immediately after Mary left the store people started to come in, which both Dan and Jaime inwardly frowned at. Neither of them wanted to be here at the moment—not that they ever wanted to be here—and the prospect of getting some time to slack off and just fool around together in an empty store had been alluring.
But duty calls, apparently.
The first hour passed in a bit of a blur of overweight white CEO's trying to get their caffeine fix, early-morning joggers trying to recuperate their systems, and random small groups or duos walking in, meeting for coffee and chatting at the tables.
After that, things slowed down a little, and Dan was able to slide his phone out of his pocket. He unlocked the screen, checking the time. Or that’s what he said to himself: there was a clock right in front of his face. He was just making excuses, at this point. Checking his phone every second like he had a crush—pathetic.
His notifications were empty, minus a reminder he had set a while ago so he didn't forget to pay his rent. A reminder that he needed reminding about, apparently. Damnit. Hopefully his landlord would let him off.
Dan frowned a little at the lack of a Phil-shaped notification, but slipped his phone away. He couldn't help but glance at the door, even if there was no one walking in at the moment.
Phil had said he'd come today, right?
Dan at least hoped that he'd pop in for the doughnut he forgot before Dan's uncharacteristically short shift was over. Partly, because he didn't trust Jaime being alone with Phil at all. Partly because, well…
The little bell above the entrance to the shop dinged, and with it, Dan's head snapped up. Damn what kind of timing was—oh.
A customer had walked in, yes, but it wasn't who Dan wanted to see right now. It was some guy he had never seen before and his young daughter, not a tall weatherman who happened to like caramel macchiatos.
Dan helped them with their drinks, and even gave the girl a handful of extra marshmallows in her hot chocolate because Dan was weak for little kids with toothy grins, apparently.
The flow of customers slowed down further, and soon the crowds were gone, leaving the usual mid-morning lull, only a select few of the tables occupied. The windows were steamy after this morning's productivity, and the glass case up front next to the register was no exception.
Dan dragged his finger down on his side of the glass, doodling without direction. Well, doodling was probably a generous term for what he was doing. It was more like scribbling, his finger tracing random lines and patterns in the condensation. He heard the bell chime again, and glanced behind him, to see where his best friend had found herself to be. Maybe she could take this order, and Dan could keep counting down the minutes until he was let out.
She wasn't behind the counter with him, but the one coffee machine was open, and looked like it was mid-clean. She was probably in the back grabbing more coffee, then.
Dan sighed, but managed to tear himself away from his empty entertainment only to—fuck.
Phil had just been the one to walk in—already walking up to the counter, actually—and when their eyes locked Phil smiled widely.
"Dan! I've come for my pastry, I just hope you haven't eaten them all, if I'm being honest.”
“It’s in his pocket. Or maybe he’s just glad to see you,” Jaime called loudly from the back, before Dan could even process what Phil had said. He felt his cheeks turn red. Fuck.
"Oh my god Phil I'm-"
But Phil was laughing, and there was a dusting of pink on his cheeks too. He waved off Dan's protests with a wide smile.
"Dan, Dan it's okay, I get it." Phil looked over Dan's shoulder. "Thanks for the clarification, Jaime!" he called, seemingly to not think twice about what Jaime had said. Dan, however, wasn't taking it in stride as well as Phil, evident by how enflamed his cheeks still were.
"So, um, you uh, want a coffee, right? ”
“No, I want your hand in marriage,” Phil deadpanned. Dan heard Jaime laughing. The corner of Phil's mouth started to upturn, and Dan's heart was stuttering in his chest. What a day this was turning out to be.
But two could play at this game.
“I might need to get the ring resized,” Dan said, "but I guess there's only one way to find out."
Phil blinked at him. “Wait, you-”
“Your hand, please.”
Phil did as he was told. Dan was certain he heard Jaime's sharp inhale of surprise all the way from the back. Dan held Phil's ring finger out. “Hmmm… might be a little small.”
“What are you-”
Dan extracted a bagel from the display, placing it onto Phil’s finger. “Oh! It fits beautifully!”
Phil blinked, but then he unfroze, his shoulders relaxing and little crinkles appearing at the corners of his eyes from his giggle.
“Has anyone told you that you’re really weird?”
Dan smiled. “You say that like it’s a bad thing.”
"Well, I've certainly never been proposed to with a bagel before, maybe it is a bad thing."
Dan let Phil's hand drop and rolled his eyes, but a weird feeling in his chest begged his attention. It was unfamiliar. Dan ignored it.
"You can keep the bagel, if you want—I can't exactly put it back into the display case. And in all honesty, did you want a coffee? Or did you just want to pop in for your doughnut that you abandoned like a savage yesterday?" Dan asked, his hand hovering by the stacks of cups, waiting to see if he would be making another caramel macchiato for Phil today.
"Hey, I was trying to be a productive member of society and work, Daniel."
"Forgive me, then, Philip," Dan said. There was a little nervous voice in his head at Phil's uttering of his full name. No, not quite nervousness, it was something, that was for sure. But exactly what was a mystery to Dan.
So like any other obstacle Dan faced that he didn't know how to handle, he ignored it.
“Wow, I can feel the sexual tension from here,” Jaime drawled, walking up next to Dan.
There it was. There it fucking was.
Dan snapped.
“Actually, Jaime can serve you,” Dan said, or rather, spat. He really didn’t mean to, but Jaime’s comment just—
“Dan?” Phil was saying, something soft and confused in his voice, “Did I do something?”
Dan pushed past Jaime and lifted up the divider that closed the counter off from the public, ignoring it all and shoving the Employee's only door open roughly, stepping into the break room. He needed a fucking break, that was for sure.
“Dan?” He heard behind him, just before the door swung shut.
Jaime this time. Dan ignored them both.
Sex. Why did it always have to end with sex?
Dan sunk into a chair, a shaky breath passing his lips, his head falling into his hands, the anger melting straight out of him, just leaving the sadness, the pain, the hurt.
Phil was probably confused as hell right now, and fuck it, Jaime would be too, but goddamnit Dan couldn't do this to himself.
Pull it together, pull it together, pull it-
A lump had formed rapidly in Dan's throat, and a black feeling had made itself home in his ribcage. He knew it well. Knew it better than himself, it seemed like, sometimes.
Loneliness, isolation, all based on the lack of feeling something that everyone else in the whole fucking world felt. Fuck, he couldn't do this, not here, not now. He had less than an hour before his shift was over and he could leave. He could mourn his lack of humanity then.
But god, was that just wishful thinking, because Dan's head seemed to become heavier than the world itself—there was no way that his neck could be able to lift his skull from where it was being cradled by his hands.
His eyes were wet, and god, just ignore it, ignore it, ignore it, he was fine. Peachy. It was a stupid comment made by his best friend that didn't mean anything. There were probably dozens of them made across the world every moment, so why the fuck did he have to care so much?
Salty tears were starting to slide down the curves of his wrist from where his palms were digging into his eyes.
Fuck, was it even worth lying to himself about anymore? Of the pretending? Of course he knew why he cared so much. Of fucking course he did. He didn't feel sexual attraction. He would never be able to be attracted to Phil that way (even if he was at all because he wasn't, Phil was a friend). There never would be "sexual tension" for Jaime to feel.
Never.
Because Dan was Dan, and a normal, happy ending just didn't seem to be in his fate.
Because Dan was ace.
Because he would never be attracted to people like that.
Because no one would ever want someone as broken as him who couldn't even feel correctly.
A muffed sob tore itself from Dan's throat, and it hurt. His body physically ached with the longing to be someone he was not and feel something he couldn't.
Fucking hell Dan, you fucking idiot.
Dan was gasping against his shaking fingers, tears clouding his vision. He gritted his teeth and groaned, digging his fingernails into his palms.
Jaime was going to come for him, most likely as soon as she could properly step away from the counter. If she saw him here, curled up on himself, crying over a stupid comment she made then she wouldn't take Dan telling her that "everything was fine" for an answer. He would be forced to tell her, and damnit Dan didn't want to ruin another relationship, especially one as important and meaningful to him as the one he had with Jaime. A memory surfaced of someone who had promised to love him.
"I can't believe this whole time you were a fucking freak and you didn't tell me. Asexual? God, Dan, that's just a fucking seven-letter cry for help."
Dan abruptly stood up and clenched his hands at his sides. There were tears still escaping his eyes and his breaths were still slightly hiccuped, but he just raised his chin and bit his lip. His shoulders were shaking but it didn't matter because he was fine.
He was doubtful that anything but his sheer force of will calmed his racing heart and his trembling body, but there was no part of Dan that cared nor was up for thinking about it. He pulled his phone out of his pocket and opened the camera. His eyes weren't too red. Dan used the corner of his shirt to wipe away the tear tracks and ran his fingers through his hair to fix his straightened fringe. He looked at the time before hiding away his phone. He'd been in here for roughly ten minutes. It didn't feel that long, that was for sure.
Dan took another deep breath and grabbed the door handle, not opening it yet. He closed his eyes. You're fine, you're fine, you're fine.
He opened the door, wiping away all traces of his breakdown off of his face and replacing it with a mask that he wore well after years of use.
Jaime's head flicked immediately to Dan as he emerged, but she was in the middle of making a coffee, a queue of at least a half dozen people in front of her. She'd be busy for a little. Good.
Dan passed her, not saying anything, just reaching over the counter to grab one of the rags they used to clean up the self-serving bar and walking away. Dan took his time cleaning up the spilled sugar and milk, fixing up the various advertisements for their specialty drinks they sold, and refilling the straws and napkin dispenser even though they didn't really need it. The entire time he worked, his thoughts rolled and crashed like thunder in his head, pulling his train of thought this way and that and in every direction that it didn't need to go. By the time that Dan was finishing up, the whole thing was spotless and he only had about ten minutes before his shift was over.
"Dan?"
Dan jumped, not even realizing that someone was standing next to him, and he turned. Phil was a few steps away, a coffee cup in his hand, a remorseful look on his face. His shoulders were dropped and his eyes were sad, and overall it seemed as if all of the enthusiasm that Dan associated with Phil had been sucked out of him.
There was a pang in Dan's chest upon seeing Phil's happiness so curbed, especially when it was all Dan's fault, fuck.
"I just want to say I'm sorry for earlier, that's all. I-I shouldn't have joked like that, and I'm really sorry if I offended you or something, I swear I didn't mean to, Dan, but I'm sorry." Phil said, his voice soft, those blue blue eyes pleading.
For a moment, Dan just stared, but he blinked, coming out of his haze.
"Phil...it's not your fault I promise. It wasn't even you, actually." Dan raised a hand when Phil opened his mouth as if to protest. "Thank you for your apology, but like I said, it wasn't you. It was stupid, anyways. I shouldn't have reacted like I had." Dan was pouring everything he couldn't say into his eyes. It was fruitless to think that Phil would understand him, but even if it was in vain Dan would still do nothing but hope.
"Dan, if something upset you then it matters."
"Phil, I promise you this doesn't." I don’t.
Dan rubbed his face, sighing. He couldn't explain it to Phil. Phil would only despise him. When he pulled his hand away, Dan's eyes settled on Steve walking through the glass entrance in his work uniform. He was a few minutes early, but Dan was fine with that; he had to get out of here.
"Could I ask when your break is?" Phil said, the words pulling all of Dan's attention to him.
"What?"
"Like, um, you get a break, right? I was wondering when it was because I kind of wanted to talk with you like we always do, but there's a, uh, bunch of people in line and stuff and I don't want to bother you when you're working. Not that you have to spend your break with me! No, it was just a question, I-god, I'm making an embarrassment of myself." Phil groaned after stumbling through his attempt at an explanation.
Dan could still feel that black emotion in his chest, and like every single time that it decided to surface itself, he wanted to find his way to his bed and curl up and have a proper cry, but there was a sudden and tremendous internal outcry, his body and mind shouting don't leave me alone.
Phil didn't want to deal with Dan and his problems, however. That was fact for certain.
Yet, Dan still found his mouth opening and words spilling forth against his will. Mutiny. He wanted to scream. Why couldn't his own self let him self destruct in peace?
"I don't have a break today, actually. I'm leaving early."
"Oh?" Phil's eyebrows bent upwards, a shy smile spreading across his face. "Would you, maybe want to do something, then? You don't have to-"
"Phil," Dan said, stopping him, still in an internal turmoil, "that sounds perfect."
Phil smiled, a true and proper grin that lit up his whole face.
"When do you get off?"
"Now, actually. Wait here."
Dan didn't wait for an answer, but rather walked past him and up to the counter, putting the rag he had been using back where it went. Jaime must have heard him because she turned her head from where she was facing away from Dan, making a coffee, her eyes going wide, mouth opening. It hurt him to do so, but he kept going and ignored her for a second time today. He once again stepped through the Employee's only door, grabbing his jacket off of the hook on the wall. Steve was in there, but they only locked eyes for a second before Dan turned away. He slipped it on as he found his way back to where Phil was still standing, minus his coffee cup. He must have finished it.
"You sure about this, Dan?"
"Obviously, Lester. C'mon."
Phil was right in step with Dan, holding the glass door open for the brunet. Dan stepped through, feeling the cool breeze blow against his face and ruffle his hair. Dan felt Jaime's eyes dig into his back and his phone vibrated in his pocket, but Dan didn't pull it out. He knew it would he her.
He and Phil fell into step. They weren't talking at the moment, but the silence wasn't oppressive. It felt right. It felt like they were acknowledging everything.
Dan's head was still flooding, filled to the brim with things that he didn't want to think about, but at least it seemed like the rest of him was agreeing to spending some impromptu time with Phil.
"I think you need some cheering up. Are you okay with me taking you somewhere?" Phil asked, breaking the silence. They were a few blocks away from the coffee shop at his point, and Dan had just been blindly following Phil the whole time.
"Cheering up, huh?" He asked. The normal, quietly sarcastic edge had returned to his voice.
"Yeah. How about it?"
"Where would we be going?"
"A surprise."
Dan flicked his eyes to Phil, who was already looking at him. His eyes were intense, and Dan couldn't keep the gaze. He was too vulnerable to.
"Sure."
He didn't have to be looking at Phil to know that the man was smiling right now, and for some reason that put a little grin on Dan's face.
A surprise. He hadn't had one of those in a while.
They fell into easy conversation, Phil obviously leading it and choosing topics that would require Dan to listen more than actively participate. Dan was grateful for Phil's cheeriness and understanding, and as a bonus, he learned more about who he was walking with.
Phil had spent a large time at uni producing little self-made films before he had chosen to pursue meteorology because of a child-like love for the weather. He like to play video games and dreamed of getting a corgi one day. He was from up north. He hated cheese.
"You hate cheese? How can someone hate cheese?" Dan screeched, interrupting Phil. He couldn't help it. Not liking cheese? Was it possible?
"I don't know! It's just weird! It doesn't taste good and the texture isn't good and it's just ew." Phil said, pulling a face.
"Oh my god."
"Hey!"
"Do you eat pizza? Shit if you're one of those people that eats pizza without cheese then this friendship is cancelled."
"No, I love pizza, don't worry."
"But you hate cheese?"
"I never said I made any sense."
Dan was still giving Phil an incredulous look, and Phil snorted and shook his head. Dan was about to ask him if there was any other food out there that was such a blasphemy to hate that Phil disliked, but Phil's face lit up and he wrapped his fingers around Dan's wrist, dragging him over to the left.
"Here we are!"
In front of Dan and Phil was the Manchester Eye, a popular ferris wheel that Dan had yet to visit even if he had been living in Manchester for years now.
"The Manchester Eye?"
"Yes! Tell me you've been, because the view at the top is absolutely incredible. You can’t have bad thoughts when you're up that high and looking at something so beautiful; it's just impossible."
Impossible, eh? We'll see, Lester.
Phil was still holding onto Dan's wrist, and normally, Dan would have pulled away at the touch by now, but for whatever reason, he didn't. Phil led him into the line, dropping Dan's wrist when they had to buy their tickets. Dan reached for his own wallet, but Phil waved him away, refusing to let Dan pay.
"This is your surprise, so you don't get to pay for it."
They were ushered onto the ride by the attendant, and because there was no one else waiting, they didn't have to run the risk of being put with strangers.
Their conversation had died down, and neither of them tried to revive it, choosing to just stay silent. When they got to the top, however, Dan couldn't help but suck in a breath.
Calling views like this "breathtaking" were cliche and overused in Dan's opinion, but he didn't really know another way to describe it. Manchester was splayed out before his eyes and for the first time, Dan thought of the city as more than the hell hole that he lived in. It was almost something beautiful.
Phil was smiling when Dan turned to him, but Dan didn't really care.
"Oh my god, Phil, you were right. I can't believe I haven't been on this before."
"Beautiful, huh?"
"Yeah."
Phil ended up walking Dan home, after that, and when Dan was standing in front of his apartment complex, waving goodbye to Phil, he couldn't help but wish that their day together had lasted longer.
And in reality, it had lasted much longer than expected. They had finally crossed the boundary of just seeing each other when Dan was at work, and even disregarding that, they took the long way around town just to keep talking.
Phil was much more fun to be around than Dan realized. He was more than just talkative like Dan originally thought, but he was sweet and caring and had the strangest mannerisms and personality, but it wasn't annoying, merely endearing. He was like the sun, and Dan had always been one to bask in warmth.
"Bye, Dan!" Phil called, walking away. Dan smiled.
"See you, Phil!"
He climbed the steps to his flat, hands in his pockets, still riding the wave that was being anywhere near Phil Lester and spending time with him.
In his flat, Dan kicked his shoes off and stripped himself of his jacket, pulling his work shirt over his head and leaving himself bare chested before falling back onto his couch. It was mid afternoon, but it already felt like midnight. Dan reached onto the floor where his jacket laid rumpled and fished his phone out of his pocket, unlocking it. He sent a quick text to Jaime, telling her not to worry and that he was fine, just tired, which was why he had reacted the way he had.
Twenty minutes later, he got a text, and Dan paused his game of flappy bird. He was surprised, however, to see that it wasn't a response from Jaime, but a text from Phil.
>> From: Phil Lester (is amazing!!)
dan look at this dog!!!!!
A second text came through instantly, a link this time. Dan clicked it, and twitter popped up, showing him a video of a cute labrador chasing bubbles. Dan laughed, scrolling up to retweet it, but one of the replies caught his eye.
AmazingPhil: 10/10 doggo content!!!
AmazingPhil? Dan clicked on the reply, and up came a twitter feed. Specifically, Phil's twitter feed. Dan started to scroll, finding himself laughing. Looks like Phil's twitter was just as enjoyable as he was in person.
Dan pressed the follow button before backspacing and opening his messages once again.
>> To: Phil Lester (is amazing!!)
i would die for that dog wtf
Phil started to type immediately, and if Dan said he didn't smile, he'd be lying.
~~~~~
The next morning, Dan had to peel himself off of the couch after falling asleep there, in the midst of watching a movie. He groaned, rubbing his eyes. His neck was all bent and he could feel the sofa creases on his cheek.
Dan looked to the side, peeking out the window. The sky was overcast, but it didn't look too bad. Would it be a nice day?
Dan flicked on his television, flipping through the channels until he found a weather one. It wasn't Phil's, and for some reason, that made him keep searching.
Eventually, Dan stumbled across it, Phil's smiling face appearing right before Dan's. He was in the middle of telling the weather, pointing to one of the maps behind him.
"-and it looks like there's a small chance of rain today, so keep your umbrellas home today!"
Dan rushed through his shower after looking at the time, not wanting to be late for work. He barreled through his kitchen after running a straightener through his hair, shoving a handful of cereal in his mouth and pocketing his phone before running out his door. He'd have to run; he overslept.
When Dan opened the door to exit his apartment complex, however, it was raining. He groaned. The rain would give him hobbit hair and soak him through completely no doubt if he didn't get an umbrella.
Well, fuck.
By the time Dan ended up running back up to his flat, tracked down his umbrella, and practically fell down the steps, he was most certainly going to be late.
Small chance of rain my ass, Phil.
Dan started fast walking, the rain pelting his umbrella. He was grumbling to himself, but then an idea popped into his head, and he couldn't help the smile that came over his face. He posed for a picture, sure to include the rain all around him, composed a short caption, and sent it out to the internet before putting his phone away and picking up his pace to get to work.
He might be late, but goddamnit it wouldn't be by much.
Dan (@danisnotonfire) 4 seconds ago:
does this look like a "small chance of rain" to you @AmazingPhil?
#phanfiction#phanfic#my fics#allyssaTM#dan howell#phil lester#i dare you to stay#i dare you to stay: chapter 7#angst#fluff#ace!dan#weatherman!phil#aphobia#chaptered#au#phan#phandom#dan and phil
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Can you believe, people come to this blog, to mintedpotters.tumblr.com, and they see my blog header which says "The A is not for Ally", and they see my description which says "aces/aros belong in the LGBTQIA community", and they see my most popular post, which is about ace/aro people still being in the LGBT community, and they STILL FUCKING THINK they can "change my mind" or "make me see reason" by coming into my inbox and my activity and talking shit about asexuals and aromantics not being queer.
BITCH.
Take your gross ass aphobic hands off my fucking posts, block me, and move the fuck on. I don't want to hear your bullshit. I don't want to read you recycled rhetoric that you took from transphobes and biphobes. You look like a bitch, you sound like a bitch, and no one in their right minds wants to come near you with a ten foot pole. You're a pathetic, lonely asshole, wasting your one very short life, telling people that their identity isn't real, their struggles and oppression aren't real, their feelings and lives just aren't valid.
I would link you all back to this very long, very important post about how very real aphobia is, and how dangerous your "aces arent valid" rhetoric is, but chances are, you've already pissed yourself in rage and are currently writing some very mean words in my inbox about how you hope something awful happens to me. Also, I'm on mobile, I can't link anything.
So here's another reminder, just in case this post wasn't shockingly crystal clear about where I stand on this fucked up backwards discourse:
Aces and aros are LGBT. End of fucking story.
#exclusionists#fuck off exclusionist#exclusionists are gross#ace discourse#exclusionists don't touch#ace inclusive blog#aro inclusive blog#aroace inclusive#fucking fight me aphobes#hey its riley#i have zero patience for this discourse now
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Okay, on one hand that Aphobe List Masterpost thing is dumb as hell and a perfect example of why those sorts of Mega Callout Posts don’t really work. But, on the other hand, I’m kinda disturbed by the virulent aphobia I’ve been hearing on this; even from people I otherwise respect.
@prokopetz already did a p/ good post-chain on why a lot of the exclusionist arguments are bullshit, but I will also add to that that A) Just because there’s shitheads in a marginalized community doesn’t make that community’s greivances wrong, and B) This feels so much like a proxy war about the larger issue of homonormativity in the LGBTA+ community, so yet another reason to hate Dan Savage & co.
Giving credence to the latter is the fact that I have heard aces at pride and cops at pride conflated, and also ace inclusionism conflated with goyim trying to pose themselves as “leaders” on Jewish issues, which is a whole other kettle I ain’t gonna touch.
Really, I just don’t want people to be lost and afraid and unable to express their identity like I was for a lot of years regarding myself as an autistic person*. So, if you’re ace and/or aro, let me say, you’re valid and you’re always welcome on my blog.
* [EDIT] Tho, just to clarify, I’d been diagnosed for a long time, but I didn’t know how many of my problems stemmed from it and my ADHD, like my executive dysfunction and the issue of rejection-sensitive dysphoria; because nobody’d ever given me the words to understand it and most of the “help” I’d been given was more about mollifying the neurotypicals in my life than helping me.
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More Ace Dex
Ace Dex combating the casual aphobia that we all deal with at some point.
“Dude, you’ve never done the nasty?”
Dex rolled his eyes, hard. Whiskey’s tone was just this side of shocked, and it made Dex was to take back the fact that he had said anything at all. It wasn’t exactly that he expected the team to be more understanding than other people, but he hoped that was the case, anyway.
On top of that, Whiskey managed to catch the attention of Ransom and Holster, who were walking past, heads close together.
“Wait, what’s this about someone never smuggling the ol’ bone?”
Ransom gave Holster a critical look, then grinned in that way that only someone on the wrong side of tipsy can. “Playing hide the sausage.”
Holster countered quickly with, “Making the beast with two backs.”
“Assault with a friendly weapon.”
“Entangling the lower beards.”
“Joint sessions of Congress.”
Holster held out a fist. “Bro, pound it out for that one.”
With a solemn nod, Ransom offered tapped his fist to Holster’s. Dex hoped that their (truly awful) back and forth would distract them from what was going on, but instead they plopped onto the couch to join in the conversation. Well, they pushed their way onto the couch, which was already too full, Ransom on one end and Holster in the middle of Nursey and Dex.
Whiskey pointed in Dex’s general direction, and told the captains, “Apparently, Dex has never had sex.”
Holster threw a big arm around Dex’s shoulder and turned toward him. Dex could smell tub juice wafting off of him. “Dex! My dude. My man. Bro. We gotta resolve this.”
“It’s not a problem. There’s nothing to resolve.”
On the other side of Holster, Dex could see his boyfriend’s concerned face. Nursey knew that Dex’s sexuality (well, his asexuality) was still a touchy subject. On the best of days, it was hard for him to have a conversation about. On the days after a game loss and with a group of drunken and less than subtle frat boys, well…. Chances were that it wasn’t going to go well.
“No, but Dex. Dexy. Dex. Sex is so good. Tell ‘im, Rans, tell him about… Shit, what’s a good one for Dex? Crab fishing in the dead sea.”
Dex scrunched up his face. “Dude, that’s fucking gross. And no, whatever fucking euphemism you use, the answer is no.”
On the other side of Holster, Nursey stood up and held a hand out to Dex, and yeah, that sounded like a better idea than having a discussion about life choices with a very drunk Holster. Dex pushed off the couch with a solid fist to Holster’s thigh, maybe a little harder than strictly necessary. He followed Nursey under the caution tape and up the stairs to Chowder’s room.
They spent the rest of the not-kegster (because apparently it could only be a kegster if they won the game) hiding out, watching Brooklyn-99. Dex could feel Nursey sending him concerned looks, but he ignored them. They fell asleep together, cuddling on the thin mattress.
When Dex woke up, he felt like he was roasting. Sometime during the night, Cate and Chowder had climbed into bed with them. Somehow, Cait ended up cuddling close to Nursey, while Chowder was curled up at their feet (probably because it was the closest to the bathroom door… he was a bit of a messy drunk).
Dex stripped off his hoodie and headed downstairs, where he could already hear the sounds of Bitty’s hangover breakfast being cooked. Bitty was in front of the stove wearing an oversized pair of sunglasses, listlessly tending to a pan. Ransom was sitting at the table, head in his hands; his shirt was on backwards. Holster, who had by far been the drunkest of the night, looked the most aware, running a big hand over Ransom’s back.
Dex really hoped that the conversation from last night had been forgotten in a daze of alcohol. He managed to get as far as pouring milk into his coffee when that hope was shattered
“Dex, we have a score to settle, my dude.”
“The fuck we do.” Dex slammed the fridge a little too hard, making Ransom hiss and Bitty flinch at the loud noise of rattling bottles inside.
Bitty waved his wooden spoon, pointing at Holster and Dex in turn. “If y’all are gonna be fightin’, you’d best get your butts out of my kitchen. It is too early and I am too hungover.”
Holster held up his hands in surrender. “Not fighting, just discussing. Important things. Very important discussions.”
The rest of the team chose that moment to walk down the stairs. Cait had pulled on Dex’s sweater, which fell well below the shorts she had been wearing to sleep. Chowder was following behind her, eyes closed, holding onto the hood of her borrowed sweatshirt so that he wouldn’t fall over. Nursey brought up the tail, shirtless and rubbing a hand over his stomach blearily.
He headed over to Dex and pressed a kiss to the top of his head. Cait settled her boyfriend in an empty chair before heading to the coffee maker and making a mug that Dex knew was for Chowder, since she didn’t drink caffeine. She bumped Dex’s shoulder and gave him a small smile.
“What is a very important topic?”
Holster jumped at the opportunity. “Dex has never had sex.”
At the stove, Bitty shook his head and muttered, “Lord give me strength.”
From where he was huddled, Chowder muttered something that sounded like, “a deck has an ace.” The only one who seemed to understand him was Cait, who looked between her boyfriend, Dex, and Holster with a surprised look on her face.
“Oh. Well, okay then. That makes sense.” She handed the mug to Chowder and perched on his knee.
Holster opened his mouth again, but before he could say anything, Bitty dropped a plate piled high with his special hangover eggs in the center of the table. Ransom and Chowder both groaned at the noise.
Trying to head off any more discussion before it began, Dex told Holster, “Look, I’m asexual. I don’t feel sexual attraction, so I don’t want to have sex.”
“But, like, how do you know that if you’ve never had sex?” Dex could tell that Holster had good intentions, or at least not bad ones; he just didn’t know any better. Hell, he wasn’t even focused on Dex. Instead, he had an arm slung around Ransom’s shoulders, trying to push a spoonful of eggs at his boyfriend.
Nursey broke into the conversation. His tone sounded casual, bored even, but Dex knew differently; that was how Nursey sounded when he was pissed off. “Yo, Bitty. Have you ever had sex with a woman?”
Bitty didn’t bother answer, just gave Nursey a look over the top of his sunglasses that said it all. Nursey turned his attention forward. “C, you ever fool around with a dude?”
“Nope.” Chowder didn’t bother to look up from his coffee.
“Cool, cool. Holster, have you ever let Ransom sleep with anyone else while you’ve been together?”
Dex could see Holster’s arm tighten slightly around Ransom’s shoulders. “What’s your point, Nurse?”
“I just find it funny, is all. You never questioned Bitty being gay, or Chowder being straight, or whether or not you’re actually polyamorous. You never tried to force anyone else into bed when they clearly don’t want to go. But Dex is somehow different, I guess. Weird.”
Without waiting for a response, Nursey stomped off. Dex followed after him. He heard the creak of the stairs, but when he got to Chowder’s room, he found it empty. It was a few seconds before he realized the window was cracked.
Dex absolutely hated the Reading Room, but he knew Nursey found it relaxing when he was in a particularly bad mood. He could make an exception for his upset boyfriend, so he climbed out, careful not to look down.
Nursey was sitting on the folding chair that had seen better days, rolling a cigarette between his hands. There was a tension in his shoulders that Dex hated to see. He sat down next to the chair, bracing himself on the roof with one hand and holding the other one out.
It was a long minute before Nursey sighed and handed Dex the cigarette. “I’m sorry, babe.”
“What for? You don’t have anything to apologize for.”
Dex wanted to march right back downstairs and punch Holster. He could say whatever he wanted about Dex, but upsetting Nursey was a step too far. Stress smoking was one thing. It didn’t take a lot to drive Nursey to pull out his emergency pack. But Dex had worked long and hard with Nursey about feeling guilty about things he had no control over. Nursey only did that when he was well and truly upset. Fucking Holster.
“I’m sorry that I spoke for you. And that you even had to deal with any of that shit to begin with The Haus should be a safe space for you,not a place where you have to explain yourself over your sexuality. It’s just bullshit, Dex.”
When they started dating, Dex and Nursey only had a short conversation about Dex’s sexuality. Well, it wasn’t a conversation so much as Dex told Nursey that he was ace, that they wouldn’t have sex, ever, and if that was a problem, they should stop before it even started. Dex was realizing that he owed Nursey the full conversation.
“Have I ever told you about Emily? Or Jake, or Tyson?”
“No, I don’t think so.”
Dex flicked the unlit cigarette over the edge of the roof and turned his attention fully to his boyfriend. “Emily was my first girlfriend. She was my first crush, and my first kiss, and she wanted to be my first time. But I didn’t want to have sex. She… well, she didn’t take that well and among other things, she called me a fag. That got me thinking, maybe I was gay.
“So, Jake was my first boyfriend. Except, in the end, I didn’t want to have sex with him either. He knew I was asexual before I did. He was supportive and I just… I fucking loved him, Nursey, I swear. He went off to Stanford, but told me that Samwell was more accepting, and that I could find someone for me.
He cleared his throat. “Tyson was in my kinesiology class the first semester of freshman year. We flirted and went on dates, but I made the decision not to tell him about being ace. When it did finally come up, it was like a repeat of Emily all over again.
“I thought that Emily’s reaction was because we were from a small town, or because she was straight, or that she was the outlier. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that the shit Holster’s pulling? That’s the norm, and I’ve accepted it. He’s not trying to be malicious, he just doesn’t get it. Yeah, it pisses me off that he’s being ignorant, but at the end of the day, people who are supportive, like Jake, are who matter. You’re the only one who matters, Nursey.
Nursey finally looked at Dex. He didn’t say anything about Nursey’s misty eyes, just tilted his head up for a soft kiss.
Nursey clambered out of the folding chair so that he could cuddle closer to Dex. Head titled to sit on Dex’s shoulder, he asked, “So tell me about this first love… Jack? Jace? What was his name again?”
“Fucking jerk.” Dex couldn’t help but smile. “You would love him, too. He’s-”
#omgcp#check please#omg check please#nurseydex#ace characters#casual aphobia#asexual william poindexter#william poindexter#derek nurse#drinking and smoking because college kids#My writing#ficlet#drabble
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