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s-b-party · 2 days

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HSR’s Guns & Roses: Analysis of Boothill & Argenti

****Possible spoilers ahead, esp. Boothill’s & Argenti’s lore****

With Boothill out now, I’ve been very intrigued by the Boothill & Argenti duo which I’ve noticed so many details that are similar but also different about them, some of which many people may have already noticed but I still would like to analyze them since it’s been a hot minute since my last lore thread

The main aspects of these 2 characters that I want to talk about are their gameplay, characteristics, and lore/backstories

When we look at their gameplay, some details stand out; for example, both have the same element (physical) but opposite paths when it comes to their DPS roles (Boothill is Hunt which specializes in single target fights & Argenti is Erudition which specializes in dealing dmg to multiple enemies)

Their weapons are also opposites of each other where guns are ranged & the lance is typically used in close combat

This is more of a coincidence which I tweeted about recently but I still think it’s funny that their best-in-slot relics can be found in the same cavern of corrosion

Next we’ll look at their characteristics by which I mean their personalities & designs; off the bat we can see that Boothill has a more gruff personality & if he weren’t censored by his synesthesia beacon, he would be the sole reason for bumping HSR to a higher audience rating; this man probably would not hold back on the expletives 😂)

Meanwhile Argenti is shown to be very kind with his words, often using compliments & praises; typically he speaks with levelheadedness & grace, just like how we imagine a knight would speak

If we think about it, Boothill & Argenti are both very flamboyant characters but in different fonts; just look at their demo trailers as references since they both move like dancers (Argenti looks like he’s in a graceful ballroom dance while he’s fighting the swarm disaster; Boothill straight up MOONWALKS while dodging bullets from the IPC, we literally went from Marilyn Monroe to Michael Jackson 😂)

What accentuates their flamboyance even more is the way they both have spotlights on them at various points of their demo videos

Bonus shot of Boothill being so extra (read: fabulous) while fighting:

They also have very flamboyant designs which makes them stand out (as Boothill explains, they’re both clad in silver which definitely is one of the first things you would notice when looking at them); I don't know how much value silver has in this universe but it is considered a precious metal & valuable to us due to its many uses which is thanks to its malleable nature

Another thing to point out is that Argenti is based off the Latin word for silver argentum; fun fact, the Latin translation is the reason why the symbol for silver on the periodic table is Ag :3

I feel like their color palettes are a bit similar (silver, red, black) but they also have varying degrees for shared colors, specifically red & black; from a visual standpoint, this goes very well because Argenti having more red helps to emphasize his association to roses & Boothill having more black helps to emphasize his identity as “death” (well, for the IPC at least)

Moving onto their lore, although Argenti doesn’t have lines about Boothill, we do get lines about Argenti from Boothill himself; based on Boothill’s voicelines, we can assume that he holds some respect for Argenti as someone to whom he can relate

Their backstories are quite similar when we take a closer look at them

For example, they both have experiences where they lost their homes & the people important to them (damn, HYV really said you’re gonna suffer 💀)

Their respective factions are both noted to be groups of solitary people

Interestingly the factions have different reputations according to the data bank where the Knights of Beauty are looked down upon & the Galaxy Rangers are seen as heroes which may be a bit different from what we’re used to since knights normally have a positive connotation as people who hold chivalry as one of their most important values

Their goals are similar in the way that they both are looking for a specific person or entity: Boothill is looking for Oswaldo Schneider (who is responsible for the loss of his family & home; we might possibly meet him soon since we ended off 2.2 with the cliffhanger where Boothill confronts Aventurine to ask him where Oswaldo is) & Argenti is looking for Idrila the Beauty

They also have their critical turning points in their respective Character Story Part 3 portions

Boothill’s portion talks about his transformation into a cyborg & his adoption of the name “Boothill” which he explains is what they called gunslingers who ended up dead; it is a clear representation of his old self having died along with his loved ones & his home when the IPC destroyed everything

Argenti’s portion talks about his journey as a new Knight of Beauty & the obstacles he faced after having met the knight that was mentioned in his Part 2; here we see his transformation into a Knight of Beauty & his dedication to the path he walks

Before I had mentioned silver being an important part of their designs; here I think is where we see the importance of silver the best (since silver is a malleable material, it can change its meaning for both characters based on their situations)

To reiterate, becoming a cyborg by replacing his body w/ silver represents Boothill saying goodbye to his old self who knew of happier times & his loved ones; for Argenti, the silver that he wears is a sign of his devotion to Idrila the Beauty

What ties their differences so well in my eyes is that silver acts as a symbol of Boothill’s & Argenti’s resolve to accomplish their goals (silver may be malleable but it still can be strong metal & it’s even better since Argenti does talk about his will/faith being unbreakable)

I truly love their dynamic as complementary foils & I really hope that we’ll be able to see more interactions between them in the future since we just only have Boothill’s voicelines about Argenti but considering their goals, it probably won’t happen, at least not any time soon

Let me just say that I only cooked this idea up after listening to Boothill’s demo trailer on repeat…..a normal amount, I’m so normal about him 🙂🙂🙂🙂

Thank the YEEHAW man :3

#honkai star rail #hsr #honkai star rail spoilers #honkai star rail lore #hsr spoilers #hsr lore #hsr boothill #hsr argenti #character analysis

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localcoffeeshop · 8 months

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i canr srop doodling and i have nothing to do but stew in my mind palace so heres a dump of various adventure time drawings across like 5 or 6 different canvases

#adventure time #fionna and cake #princess bubblegum #simon petrikov #fionna campbell #art that i drew #gary prince #just tagging the most relevant characters to this art dump. been really enamored by potential peebs gary dynamic #because i think marshall and marcy would get alongwell and are very similar btu gary and peebs are like. theyre different.#gary and peebs are autism in two different fonts

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billtergiest · 4 months

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the skeleton lesbians and moon lesbians are on a double date

#tlt #the locked tomb #griddlehark #gideon nav #harrowhark nonagesimus #gideon the ninth #dame aylin #isobel thorm #aylin x isobel #baldurs gate 3 #bg3 #bg3 fanart #moon lesbians #same ship different font #idk i just personally see a lot of similarities between these characters lmao #this art idea would NOT leave my head for WEEKS

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nagitosstolenhand · 8 months

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i dont know quite how to describe it but. cinematic parallels.

#my post #theyre literally the same person in different fonts #jinx is just tomura with better writing and explosives #tomura shigaraki #shigaraki tomura #someone stop me before i write an essay abt their character similarities #jinx arcane #arcane jinx #league of villains #bnha #mha #arcane #ramblings

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crookedkingdom · 1 year

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"x ship is just like kanej except if they actually touched each other and they communicated with each other and kaz actually smiled!" ok so. not kanej then

#six of crows #kanej #i saw a post for a show that tried to make this argument and like. no #i haaaate that whole this ship is just another ship in a different font bullshit #90% of the time the characters are completely different with like only passing similarities #its ok to let things be different guys #if i want to see the same character/ship/whatever in a different font ill read fanfiction #also the disrespect to kanej as if their whole dynamic isnt just a bunch of tension and longing with no easy resolution bc of their traumas #text

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miss--river · 2 years

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#Red Dead Redemption 2 #Red Dead 2 #RDR2 #Red Dead Online #RDO #My Gifs #i had to change my font because somehow it got fucked up when i was doing a cyberpunk character template #i swear it was just on arial regular 15.06 sharp #and then i went to use in on these gifs and it was totally different #so i downloaded a different font that was kinda similar and i liked more

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whumpy-wyrms · 4 months

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hey guys

#man i am such a sleepy fella rn #i sure hope i’m not a clone and the real me doesn’t come into my room and kill me tonight!#/j #genuinely thank u all for ur reactions. like u all are excited to read new chapters and IM excited to read ur reactions #its always my favorite part #makes me so happy to see people enjoying my characters and story it’s literally a dream come true like wow #i’m so happy people like chapter 14 and thanks for all the amazing comments and stuff it makes me sooo happy #i’m too eepy but yeah that’s what i wanted to say :)#wyrms says stuff #i’ve also had anton brainrot specifically him as a Little Guy so i might finally finish that borrower basil au thing when they first meet #cuz it’s super wholesome and i think u all need that LOLLL #also. only like 7 of you will know what i’m talking about but anton as a kid is literally just louie in a different font like wow they are #soooo similar #not present day anton tho. just him as a little guy #literally him and louie would’ve been best friends AUGHH MY HEART #i’m gonna draw them interacting because that would literally heal me that would change my life #none of you understand how important this is to me like. holy shit #anyway reminder that things might be rough for dew right now haha but he gets a happy ending don’t stress abt it!!#the next 4 chapters specially might be a bit darker than usual #but then mystery character!!!!!!!! FUCK YESSS!!!!!!#excited :)

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castielmacleod · 2 years

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''Same person different font'' thing regarding Mary and Dean's characters irk me so much lmao...

RIGHT omg like. On one hand we have a person who is authentically compassionate, is capable of acting outside of her own self-interest more often than not, doesn’t take out her emotions on the people around her, and owns her mistakes and shortcomings. On the other hand we have a person who is none of those things, and is furthermore a violent control freak who categorically abuses those closest to him. These are fundamental differences in the way these two characters interact with the world and others, which is far more significant in a comparison than any surface-level similarities. Liking cars and jerky does not a “same person different fonts” make.

Like lol I mean… I won’t be wholly disingenuous, I’m not going to pretend Mary and Dean have no commonalities whatsoever, because they do. In my take I’d say they both have something of a lying habit that they view not as necessarily harmful but as protecting others, as well as a tendency toward self-destructive behaviour and definitely some kind of saviour complex(?). But those similarities are still not nearly enough, in my opinion, to overshadow the fact that these two characters are otherwise, as outlined above, pretty much morally and socially disparate people. Which is to say, very much not the “literal same”.

It also just feels so reductive and honestly lazy to just write Mary off as just Dean: the Prequel or whatever and leave it at that. People do much the same with Claire (Dean 2: Simba’s Pride) and even with Max Banes (Dean the 3rd), and honestly it’s kind of. Dismal. That these characters can’t just stand on their own for a significant portion of the fandom and have to be reduced to “Dean mirrors” to warrant any thought, and are then only really thought about through that lens. Like I’m sorry that is NOT the deep character analysis you think it is 😭

#It’s not even that I think parent-child comparisons in character analysis don’t have merit because I do #Like from my perspective Crowley and Rowena share some fascinating similarities that I like writing about #But it’s also not the be all end all to either of their characters for me #And more than that I don’t think it’s a stretch to say they’re similar people in the first place.#But it’s really obvious to me that Mary in situ is actually so much closer to how people wish/pretend Dean is #than Dean in situ is actually is.#The “secret good” fanon Dean might be Mary in a different font (in a nearly literal sense too) but canon Dean is not #That’s just my opinion anyway #Ask #Dean critical #Also. Maybe a character has some overlapping traits with Dean but that doesn’t mean they have to be “mirrors”??????#I swear these people would have you think that every character in the entire show is just a version of someone from t/f/w #Not that I want to give the writers too much credit for anything like originality lol but like. Please #Even if the writers WERE just hitting control-V on Dean every time they came up with a troubled character or whatever #I can’t imagine a more boring lens for analysis.#DeangirIs talk like they’re trapped in Naomi’s Dean clone warehouse because every character is Dean to them #EXCEPT DEAN. WHO IS AN OC THAT THEY MADE UP 😭#Anyway lol. Anyway #Mary Claire and Max are running circles around DW as we speak

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wannaliveattheholidayinn · 2 years

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same couple, different fonts

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mychem1calbr0mance · 2 years

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clint barton and diego hargreeves are the same character but with different fonts if you know what i mean

#their vibes...#very similar #like they just.. they could be brothers #clint barton #hawkeye #marvel #mcu #diego hargreeves #the umbrella academy #same character different font

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greenhillguy · 4 months

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just saved a url for jet 😈

#ooc #once i get caught up with work the shitbird will happen #jet is so similar to one of my ocs finn im really just playing the same characters in different fonts at this point

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raisethe-velvet · 1 year

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playing psychedelica of the black butterfly, can’t unhear subaru in karasuba’s voice

#2 of the other guys share a va with an enstars character but they dont sound that similar #karasuba however. thats just subaru in a different font #psychedelica of the black butterfly

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who-is-page · 5 months

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CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS: Inky Paws #3

Inky Paws is a nonhuman anthology zine for original fiction writings by nonhumans and alterhumans about nonhumanity, alterhumanity, and similar, related themes. This zine is primarily literature focused, but will also be open to more illustrative methods of story-telling such as comics. The zine’s focus is on fictional pieces that are centered around nonhumanity, alterhumanity, therianthropy, and similar (see Submission Guidelines section for more details).

You are welcome to submit:

Short stories

Microfiction

Satire

Poetry

Song lyrics

Experimental fiction (fake newspapers, fake recipes, fake blogs, fake posters, etc.)

Mixed media

Comics

And more! If you're unsure, just ask! Seriously, please just ask. I promise I would 10000% love to hear about your idea even if you're unsure about submitting it, there is no such thing as a bad idea and I cannot stress this enough.

How to participate:

You can submit your pieces in this Google Form!

Email invisibleotherkin(@)gmail(.)com with your submission, and please title the email "Inky Paws Zine #3 Submission". With your submission, please include:

The piece's title or name,

A name or pen name to attribute the piece to,

Any content warnings that you feel are necessary for the piece,

Any social media handle or personal website you’d like to be published alongside your name with the piece (optional), and

Any relevant author notes or author biographical information (optional).

Anonymous pieces are also welcome.

Once submissions have been collected and the deadline has passed, these submissions will be put into the zine and it will be posted online as a free PDF. Submissions are due by April 30th, 2024.

Please see the Submission Guidelines, and Submission FAQ, below cut.

SUBMISSION GUIDELINES:

Each individual may contribute up to 3 accepted submissions to be published in Inky Paws; individuals within systems may each submit 3 pieces, that is to say 3 pieces per systemmate/headmate/preferred term.

Comics and similar multi-part pieces count as one submission altogether: if you submit a single story that has been divided into two sub-stories for dramatic emphasis, or if you submit 10 pages of a single-story comic, or if you submit a written piece of fiction and an accompanying image that you drew or otherwise created to go along with it, that would still only count as one piece.

Submissions must fit the thematic criteria of:

Being explicitly about or based on nonhumans, otherkin, therianthropes, fictionkin, alterhumans, or similar groups, or;

Having strong themes or describing experiences strongly reminiscent of or related to nonhumans, otherkin, therianthropes, fictionkin, alterhumans, or similar such as (but not limited to):

Characters experiencing nonhumanity or alterhumanity as being a part of themselves/their identity,

Characters experiencing anything similar to a shift (including physical shifting),

Characters struggling with (emotionally, socially, or otherwise) being both human and nonhuman or alterhuman in some way,

Characters having a past-life as something nonhuman or alterhuman that strongly still impacts their current life, or

Characters desiring to be nonhuman or have nonhuman attributes.

TL;DR - Your submissions have to relate to or be about alterhumans or nonhumans in some way, shape, or form.

Written submissions must not exceed 7500 words, and must also use a reader-friendly font with a text size of or exceeding 16 pt.

For stories that use multiple different fonts, such as pieces meant to imitate newspapers and similar, every effort will be made to preserve the general "feel" of your piece but fonts may not be transferred over 1:1 due to potential conflicts with font copyright, readability, and overarching zine style.

Multi-part image submissions must not exceed 10 pages in length, and must also use a reader-friendly font with a text size of or exceeding 16 pt if they include text. Images larger than 8.5 x 11in. will be scaled down to an appropriate size; please take that into account when creating and submitting your images. It is also recommended that images be vertical or square in their orientation.

Written submissions should be submitted as a .docx file. Images and mixed media pieces should be submitted as either .jpg or .png files.

All submitted pieces should be your own work. Individuals caught plagiarizing or using AI within their submissions will be barred from participating in Inky Paws, including in any potential future volumes.

SUBMISSION FAQ:

Q: Where will this zine be hosted? A: The zine will be hosted for free download on Itch.io, where issues 1 and 2 of the zine are already hosted.

Q: What is the cap on submissions? A: At this time, we are not looking to accept more than roughly 25 submissions at most, in order to keep numbers and expectations manageable.

Q: Can I update my application after submitting? A: Yes, so long as the updates are submitted before the submission deadline!

Q: What is your policy on content moderation and content warnings? A: If you feel your piece needs content warnings, please include them in the submission, as we are hoping to include relevant content warnings and maturity ratings alongside all pieces. We are at this time accepting pieces of all tones and ratings.

With that said, It should be noted that any items submitted with soapboxing intent and anti-nonhuman, anti-alterhuman, anti-fictionkin, or similar leans are largely not welcome, as this is a zine geared towards all aforementioned groups and then some.

Q: Can I submit an in-progress draft or sketch? Can I claim a spot in the zine before sending in my submission? A: We are not currently accepting WIP pieces for submission at this time, though feel free to send us your WIP if you have questions related to its future submission. We also cannot reserve or guarantee a spot in the zine pre-submission, regardless of any existing drafts or WIPs.

Q: Can I submit a piece of fanfiction? A: While we've now accepted pieces of fanfiction in the past, we tend to prefer to leave them out for legal reasons. If you submit a piece of obvious fanfiction, please know that it may be significantly more likely to be rejected from the zine and that, if the piece is accepted, the piece may be removed without warning from the zine later on if DMCA or legal issues arise. We strongly advise that individuals who wish to write something inspired by fiction make it non-obvious to the outside reader where the inspiration is being taken from.

Q: Can I submit something I've created in the past? A: You can submit something you've created in the past, but please try to avoid submitting anything that you've published previously and is currently publicly accessible. For example, if the story you want to submit has already been featured in a different anthology, please don't submit it to Inky Paws! We want to encourage people to create new pieces, or to put the spotlight on pieces that haven't previously had the opportunity to be published.

Q: Do I have to write something based on the provided prompts? A: Nope! The prompts are there by popular request to help give people a jumping off point for creating, but are not required to be incorporated into your piece and will not have any effect on if your submission gets accepted or not.

Q: What is the projected timeline for this project? A: Submissions will close by April 30th of 2024. The publish date of the zine depends on submission amount and size of submissions; in an ideal world, we hope to have the zine published by December, before year's end.

Q: Can I rescind my submission? A: As long as you request to rescind your submission before the submission deadline, yes. After the deadline passes and the formatting and work towards publishing begins, we cannot guarantee that we will be able to remove your work from the zine due to time constraints and potential formatting issues. Please take this into account before submitting.

Q: Will there be any physical copies of this zine? A: Due to cost restraints and a lack of printing experience on the part of the zine organizers, we have no physical copies of this zine planned for print. You are, however, welcome to download and print copies of the zine for personal use.

Q: Who are the organizers of this zine? Where can I reach out to ask further questions? A: Who-is-Page and Noel Sol of the Sol System are organizing this zine. Feel free to send us any questions, comments, or concerns to invisibleotherkin(@)gmail(.)com, or you can always message us on Tumblr at Who-is-Page.

#alterhuman #otherkin #therian #fictionkin #zine #Inky Paws

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autistic-robin · 26 days

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more dynamics i need to see in st5 for my mental wellbeing

1. el and dustin. that’s it send post. they were genuinely so sweet in season 1 and i miss their mad scientist/test subject vibe immensely. i know el and lucas are going to be paired up this season because of their shared connection (polyamory) to max, but i would love to see more scenes between dustin and el— maybe some lighthearted bonding over their matching leg injuries or daddy issues.

2. mike and robin. i don’t think you understand i need this like i need air. will has already had his gay awakening he doesn’t need a queer life coach!! mike on the other hand is out here in the TRENCHES. this man is down critically horrendously morifyingly BAD for will but is convinced el needs him and that will could never reciprocate his feelings. he needs robin’s gay intuition and advice if anyone does.

3. steve and jonathan. HELLO??? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HELLO???? i know this is pretty much guaranteed to happen in st5 because full-circle character development and hammering in themes and blah blah blah but i’m still gonna talk about it because listen. steve got his shit rocked by jonathan one (1) time and immediately decided “fuck my idiot friends” developed a moral conscience and SHOWED UP AT HIS HOUSE to apologize. he wasn’t there for nancy he had no idea nancy was there!!! he bought jonathan a new camera!!! he was so respectful of nancy and jon even when nancy dumped his ass a season later!!! yet we never get closure between him and jonathan or even a conversation and i’m PISSED about it. matt and ross duffer rectify this or else.

4. hopper and jonathan and will. you see the vision. these kids have never had a stable father figure who truly understands them (i love bob but he was only there for st2 and was sweet but naive) and everything they’ve been through. jonathan DESPERATELY needs to be de-parentified and released from the emotional burden of constantly putting will and joyce before his own needs and dreams, and hopper desperately needs to feel like he can protect his family instead of “cursing” them. will needs a loving father figure who supports his queer identity, and hopper only had a fire lit under him in s1 when joyce mentioned it could have been a hate crime. this is like textbook recipe for healing and closure for these characters.

5. joyce and karen? i just think it would be neat. we know karen’s getting more involved this season and i think she should get to be a little gay for joyce as a treat. we had crumbs of their dynamic in s1 and on a more sincere note i honestly think joyce could help give karen the courage to leave ted or demand better from him moving forward.

6. nancy and mike. if they don’t have a genuine conversation i’ll actually be fuming raging pulling my hair out. i get it i get that they’re both emotionally repressed but GOD i wish we had more moments with them talking about their trauma or empathizing with each other’s survivor’s guilt and crippling savior complexes. all the “max and mike are the same character in a different font” business is very valid and i agree madwheeler is like ten shots of espresso injected directly into the bloodstream HOWEVER, nancy and mike’s traumas and emotional issues are so so similar please let them talk about it!!!!

7. steve and robin???? please for the love of god????? literally what the fuck was happening in s4 they were NOT given enough screentime together. not cool. i want them BACK on their queerplatonic bullshit in s5, fully codependent disgustingly clingy like god intended.

8. jonathan and el. i just want them to be siblings together!!! we got a lot of willel sibling vibes in s4 and some sweet jon-and-will moments, but i would love for them to delve into jonathan and el’s dynamic. this girl is a big reason why will was saved in s1 and we just… never really see the byerses address that? jonathan has a lottt of self-blaming tendencies when it comes to will and i’d love for el to help remind him he isn’t responsible for protecting and saving his brother all the time. conversely, i’d love for jonathan to remind el that she’s just a kid and that the weight of the world shouldn’t be on her shoulders. they’re both really soft-spoken and sweet characters with hard veneers and i feel like they’d pair well together for more emotional scenes.

9. literally the entire byers-hopper family they are the heart and soul of the show and i will never forgive the duffer brothers for losing that in s3-4 in favor of expanding the scope of the story. i miss them.

10. steve and el. i would maim and kill for this dynamic actually. both of them are involved in love triangles and have arcs centered around independency and platonic/found familial love, and steve has his whole mom-of-the-group shtick that could be really endearing paired with el’s plucky weird-little-girl vibe. idk i just think they would be a cute team, maybe paired with dustin or lucas.

11. stoncy and robin. literally give me this team or give me death. i miss stoncy’s iconic end-of-season-1 monster-hunting trio dynamic SO MUCH i would give anything for them to go on a sidequest and really just hash it all out with each other. and robin could offer steve moral support and comic relief— while we’re on the subject i would also kill to see her and jonathan interact!! like they are so similar in that brooding-noncomformist way and i feel like they would either immediately gravitate toward each other based on values OR immediately clash due to their personality differences. jonathan is all quiet and avoidant and robin can be… A Lot (said with love) when she’s not masking like s3. i just think they’d be funny together.

12. this is devolving quickly so scott clarke and the party. no i will not elaborate. thank you for your time

#stranger things #st5 #mike wheeler #will byers #el hopper #st the party #willel #jonathan byers #steve harrington #stonathan #stoncy #byler #< target audience

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miraculouslbcnreactions · 11 months

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There was no Redemption or Damnation. Chloe Doesn't Actually Have an Arc at All

Does Chloe have an abandoned redemption arc?

No. Absolutely not. She also doesn't have a “damnation” arc or really any arc at all. She is a font of wasted potential for both redemption and damnation who never gets a true chance at either path. To explain what I mean, I have to first discuss the two types of redemption arcs and also how damnation arcs work. I’ll be doing this by discussing the guy who started the redemption arc trend, Zuko, and why his story doesn’t work for people like Chloe.

The Two Types of Redemption + Some Bonus Damnation

There are two general paths to redemption: redemption through a change in worldview (the easy path) and redemption through a change in self (the hard path).

Redemption through a change in worldview is what happens when you take a character who is a fundamentally good person and give them a messed up worldview, usually through their upbringing. The story will see that worldview challenged, resulting in the character changing how they view the world, but that’s about it. They don’t really have to make major changes to themselves at a fundamental level.

This is Zuko’s path. He’s born in the Fire Nation and raised to think that the Fire Nation is good. He also has a strong sense of honor and wants to do right by his people. When he’s included in a war council and told that the army leaders are going to willingly sacrifice Fire Nation troops, he stands up and says that’s wrong. This act results in him getting banished. During his banishment, he gets to see the rest of the world and learn that the Fire Nation is, in fact, NOT good. This ultimately leads to him switching sides because he has a strong sense of honor and wants to do right by his people. Who he is and how he acts never really changes.

Chloe is not like Zuko. She is a selfish, egotistical, petty, spoiled brat. For her to be redeemed, she has to accept that fundamental aspects of her character are deeply flawed. This might involve some changes to her worldview, but that’s only a tiny piece of what needs to change and I’m honestly not sure that she really has a messed up worldview. There are multiple instances where it’s clear that she knows that she’s being mean or bad and just doesn’t care.

This brings us to the topic of damnation arcs. For something to be a damnation arc, a person has to be presented with a choice between good and evil and they have to choose evil. Zuko actually has one of these. At the end of the second season of Avatar, Zuko is given the choice to join the good guys or to join his sister and be accepted back into his family.

He chooses his sister.

That’s a damnation arc because Zuko truly had a chance to change sides. The scene would play very differently if Zuko had to choose between staying in exile and joining his sister. Joining his sister would still be the wrong move, but it’s no longer damnation. It’s just doing a bad thing vs doing nothing (though it can be argued to be somewhat damning since Zuko is going against his own morals). Along similar lines, Zuko is redeemed when he chooses to abandon his family to do what’s right even though it costs him everything he wanted: his family, his girlfriend, and his home.

This is where Chloe’s “damnation” and redemption arcs fall apart. There is no point in the series where she’s actively given a choice between good and evil. She only ever makes choices between inaction and evil or inaction and good. Does that make her a good person? Hell no! But it does make the argument that she had an arc fall very flat. She never gets better, but it's hard to say that she gets worse.

Chloe’s Choices: The Good and The Bad

Chloe becomes Queen Bee without anyone saying she was fit for the role. She just finds a miraculous and uses it. The way she uses it is selfish, egotistical, and petty. In other words, it’s just Chloe being Chloe. While the actions she takes are horrible and definitely deserve punishment, they’re in character. She’s not acting worse than normal, she’s just being herself, but with superpowers. If she’d been given the miraculous and been charged to be a hero, then her actions would be damning because she would be choosing to go against her charge. But she’s not. She has no charge.

To really assess if Chloe has potential to change, you have to look at what she does when she’s given the choice to be good and this is where things get messy.

This is how Chloe’s first encounter with her miraculous ends:

Ladybug: I have to get the Miraculous back, Chloé. (in the background, Nadja's van arrives) Chloé: Give me a second chance, please! Nadja: (holding a tablet with Audrey on it) Audrey Bourgeois, tell us live how you feel about what just happened. Audrey: (on the tablet) According to me, Chloé just clearly demonstrated that there is nothing exceptional about her. Cat Noir: (puts a hand on Chloé's shoulder) I know that you did the things you did to impress your mother. Ladybug: Anyone can make mistakes, even a superhero. What matters is how you fix them. I personally made one by losing that Miraculous. Don't make the mistake of not giving it back. Act like a hero. Cat Noir: And show everyone how exceptional you can be. (Chloé hands Ladybug the Miraculous) Ladybug: Thank you. Chloé: (the duo are about to run off) Ladybug? Cat Noir? (the cameraman moves closer) I'm sorry.

Chloe doesn't fight to keep her miraculous. A few quick lines are all it takes for her to hand it over. When Ladybug gives Chloe the chance to act like a hero would, Chloe acts like a hero. The same can be said of every subsequent time when Ladybug gives Chloe the bee miraculous. Every time Chloe is called upon to be Queen Bee, she does the job to the best of her abilities and acts as a functional member of the team. She's not incompetent. She doesn't put the team in danger so that she can be in the spotlight. Heck, the very next time she gets it, Chloe willingly admits that her father’s akumatization was her fault.

Chloé: It— it was me. I hurt my daddy's feelings. Because I want to leave Paris, forever. Ladybug: Because of what happened in school? I'm sure Marinette probably didn't exactly mean what she said. Chloé: Oh, it's not just her— actually, I don't even care about her— it's because I have no reason to be here: nobody likes me; I have no friends. I'm… useless. Ladybug: (remembering what Adrien told Marinette earlier at school about Chloé) A friend once told me: nobody is useless, Chloé. Chloé: It's easy for you to say that. You're Ladybug, a superhero. You serve a purpose. Ladybug: Yes, I can fix up all the messes. You said it yourself in your documentary. Chloé: (gasps) You saw it?! Ladybug: (nods) Mm-hmm. Chloé: Oh! I'm so embarrassed. That film's ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. I realize that now. Ladybug: Don't worry Chloé. You can fix your own messes, if that's what you want. You, too, can serve a purpose, but you have to want to. Chloé: (sniffles) I do want to.

When Ladybug asks Chloe to be a better person, Chloe is a better person.

This is why I say that Chloe has a perfectly functional view of the world. She knows when she’s doing something wrong and is able to do good when challenged to do so. Even on the civilian side, we see that Chloe is willing to be a little better when given the proper motivation. In Despair Bear, Adrien says he’ll end their friendship and so Chloe actively tries to save that friendship even if she hates every minute of it. Similarly, in Zombiezoo, Chloe sacrifices herself so that Ladybug can win.

Now, none of this is a redemption. It is, at best, the foundation for a redemption. We see that Chloe has the potential to be good when challenged to do so by the right person or circumstance, but she’s not trying to be better outside of those moments when she’s challenged. For her redemption to really start, she has to choose good over evil. She has to start improving when Ladybug isn’t watching or when Adrien isn’t threatening their friendship. For it to be a damnation, she has to choose evil over good.

She is never truly given that choice.

The two big scenes where Chloe gets “worse” are at the end of Queen Wasp and at the end of Hearthunter. However, in both of those scenes, no one gives her a choice to be better even though she’s primed and ready to make that choice.

Queen Wasp: When the Civilian Moment Should Have Happened

At the tail end of Queen Wasp, Marinette has the choice to go to New York with Audrey or stay in Paris. She chooses Paris, but brings Chloe with her to try and repair the relationship between mother and daughter. Here, Marinette gets to really see just how little Audrey cares for Chloe.

In a show where Chloe has a character arc, this should be the moment when she’s given a choice. She’s just spent the whole episode trying to get her mom to love her and it’s gone nowhere. Marinette, our hero, is standing right there, fully capable of saying, “You know what Chloe, your mom sucks and you don't need her validation. I know some people who already think that you're awesome. Come on, let’s get you back home and I’ll call Adrien and Sabrina to meet us there.”

Instead, this is what happens:

Marinette: I think you're wrong. A huge part of your life is here in Paris, too! (she steps aside, showing Chloé and Butler Jean) Audrey: Chlorene? Uh— Chloé? Chloé: (looks at her mother, then at Marinette in a guilty manner, then back at her mom) Why don't you love me, Mom? Audrey: But… Uh— Of course I l-l-love you. Marinette: (groans) You're also wrong about your daughter not being exceptional. In fact, Chloé is exceptionally mean. She's the worst person I've ever met. She may be more heinous, pompous and selfish than you. Compared to both of you, even a rock seems more capable of love. (Audrey and Chloé are furious with Marinette for telling mean things to them.) Chloé and Audrey: (shouting) How dare you⁈ (gasp and look surprised at each other) Marinette: See? You're both much more alike than you think. (walks off; humming)

…our hero, Ladies and Gentlemen.

I’m not saying that Chloe’s poor behavior is Marinette’s fault. Chloe’s choices are her own, but it’s hard to say, “why didn’t she change?” when even Ladybug doesn’t seem to want her to. If no one is actively encouraging Chloe whenever she does better, then it's 1000x harder for her to get better. Fake it til you make it is a huge part of self improvement. Being a better person for validation or selfish reasons often leads to meaningful change and is a legitimate way to start a self-driven redemption arc. (Go watch The Good Place if you want a prime example of this.)

Hearthunter: When the Hero Moment Should Have Happened

Hearthunter and Miracle Queen are supposedly the end of Chloe’s “damnation” arc. The moment where she makes the wrong choice and, to be clear, Chloe does the wrong thing here. Helping Hawkmoth is a bad move and she deserved to face some consequences. However, the choice to help Hawkmoth has the weirdest setup for a “damnation” arc that I’ve ever seen.

In Miraculer, we get this line from Gabriel: all I need is for [Chloe] to lose all hope in Ladybug. To become angry enough so I can akumatize her.

This is also the episode where Chloe rejects an akuma (Chloé: No, Hawk Moth! I am a superheroine! I am Queen Bee! Ladybug will come and get me when she needs me! I WILL NEVER JOIN YOU!), the episode where Lila helps manipulate Chloe into doubting Ladybug, and the episode where Ladybug tell’s Chloe that she’ll never be Queen Bee again, setting up the tension for the season final.

However, even though that tension is set, the thing that turns Chloe to the dark side is… her parents being akumatized. Not some random akuma that Chloe wants to help with. Not Hawkmoth just randomly showing up with the bee. No, we have both of Chloe's parents as the victim of the day and Ladybug actively chooses Ryuuko over Queen Bee, making Chloe the first and only hero who doesn’t get called in when a loved one is in trouble.

All of that leads to this:

Hawk Moth: Chloé Bourgeois, rejections hurt! (Chloé turns to face him) Your talents deserve to be recognized! Ladybug and Cat Noir's reign has gone on long enough. It's time for Paris to have a new queen, and the Queen Bee on my chessboard is you. Chloé: You've akumatized my parents! If I had my Miraculous I'd- Hawk Moth: (puts up his hand and interrupts) You're right, but I did it for one reason only. So that you would finally realize that Ladybug will never give you the Bee Miraculous again. I, however, always keep my promises. (shows her the Bee Miraculous in his hand) Chloé: This isn't real! How do you have it? Hawk Moth: Try it and see for yourself. You're Ladybug's greatest fan. You've helped her, you've trusted her, and what has she done for you in return? Chloé: (gets angry) Nothing! She couldn't care less about me! I'm done with her. She's irrelevant, utterly irrelevant! (reaches out to grap the Miraculous, stops) I want you to deakumatize has my parents first!

Just like with Queen Wasp, Chloe does the wrong thing. She didn’t have to take the bee. She didn't have to stay selfish, egotistical, and petty. But at the same time, this isn’t really a damning act. It's an act that makes her unsuitable to be Queen Bee again, but she wasn't going to be Queen Bee anyway. She wasn't choosing to be a villain over a hero. She was just choosing to be selfish at a time when she's been actively manipulated and when her parents are in danger.

In other words, this is just Chloe being Chloe. She’s acting the same way she did when she first got her miraculous. If no one is going to believe in her, then why should she be a better person? Why shouldn't she just stay the same? She's arguably no worse than she was in Queen Wasp, the consequences are just greater because of Hawkmoth's plan and the powers he gives her. The only real change is that she no longer idolizes Ladybug so Ladybug no longer has a chance to encourage Chloe to be a better person, but Ladybug never did that anyway, so what does it really matter?

Once again, none of this is to blame Marinette. She doesn't have to try and make her bully a better person. That's a huge ask. But with no one actively trying to make Chloe better even when she shows that she can be better when given the right motivation, it's silly to say that Chloe had a damnation arc or really any arc at all. She ended where she started and, if that's all they wanted to do with her, then they should have just left her as a one-dimensional mean girl instead of making her one of the most developed characters in this bloated mess of a show.

Personally, I would have liked to see a redemption arc because I enjoy morally grey characters and it would have been nice to have someone on the team who wasn't a kind, sweet, goody-goody (for a team with 18 freaking members, there's really no moral diversity, which is boring). It also would have stopped Chloe and Lila filling the same basic role for 3 seasons, which was stupid. (Why do you think Lila showed up so little? It's because Chloe could do almost everything she could do and do it better.) Second choice would be don't develop Chloe, leave her as a petty mean girl and give her focused screen time to Nino and Adrien. Their relationship is barely a thing and that's disappointing considering its strong setup. Cutting Lila and giving Chloe a true damnation arc would have also been far more satisfying.

#chloe burgeois #chloé bourgeois #miraculous salt #ml writing salt #ml writing critical #queen bee #If you read this then thanks! I mostly just wanted to stop thinking about this and writing it down got it out of my brain #I don't love Chloe but the current lineup is just so bleh and I miss having her to shake things up #ml salt #chloe deserves better #or worse #worse works too

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