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mst3kproject · 1 year

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Goncharov

Why the hell is an MST3K blog rising from the dead to review a forgotten Martin Scorcese film? I'd never heard of this movie until it suddenly became a meme, but I had a day off work and I figured I might as well see what all the fuss was about. Now I want to talk about what I saw, and this is the only movie blog I have, so I'm doing it here.

Ivan Goncharov is the biggest, baddest motherfucker east of the iron curtain, richer than a tsar and colder than a Siberian winter. He's got a beef with Neapolitan mafioso Mario Giglioli, so he heads to sunny Italy to confront him in person. His closest confidante, Andrey, thinks it's suicide to do this on Giglioli's home turf but accompanies Goncharov anyway out of loyalty. What follows is a two-hour dick-measuring contest as Goncharov and Giglioli try to out-intimidate each other, culminating in an orgy of gunfire where only one will be left standing... and this is the kind of movie where you can't take it for granted that it'll be the guy whose name is the title.

That's the ostensible plot, anyway. What makes Goncharov a far more interesting film than such an outline might imply is that the argument between the mobsters is just a backdrop. Having set up Goncharov's hard as steel, cold as ice reputation in the first act, the movie then sets about deconstructing it. Goncharov goes from a terrifying figure devoid of all morality to a tragic antihero, a man who has come to believe his own hype so completely that he can no longer let himself be human.

This is demonstrated mainly by watching the breakdown of his relationships over the course of the tense three days in Naples. The most important person in Goncharov's life is Andrey, the only one he comes near being vulnerable with. Their relationship is depicted as very touchy-feely in a literal sort of way, with Andrey helping Goncharov with his coat and shoes, lighting cigarettes for him, and touching his shoulder or arm as Goncharov confides in him. The framing emphasizes these touches in a very homoerotic way, and I don't think I've got my tumblr goggles on here. These guys have fucked.

As Goncharov becomes more and more obsessed with being tougher and more ruthless than Giglioli, whom he sees as an effeminate softie, Andrey tries to persuade him that the other man is not worth this sort of obsession. Whatever Giglioli did to insult Goncharov (we never find out), Andrey is of the opinion that they should just leave a dead horse in the asshole's bed and move on. Goncharov's pride will not allow him to do that, and the less subtle Andrey is in his attempts to dissuade him, the more Goncharov pushes him away, finally abandoning him entirely. The tragedy of the ending comes from the fact that Andrey refuses to abandon Goncharov in turn.

We also see Goncharov with his wife Katya. He is frequently cruel to her, and she tolerates it because he gives her expensive gifts and because she is seeking a vicarious mending of her relationship with her abusive father - she was never able to earn his love, but perhaps she can earn Goncharov's. This is doomed to failure, as much because of Goncharov as because Katya doesn't actually want it to succeed. Nursing a black eye, Katya pours her heart out to a bartender, Sofia, who tries to help her escape... but this cannot work out, either. As Katya herself says, she doesn't know who she is without her issues.

I am pleased to note, by the way, that every single major character in the movie is named and I can remember them all, which is a bit of a treat for me (I need to watch good movies more often). The only exception is Goncharov himself. The end credits list him as Ivan, but nobody ever calls him that, not even Andrey or Katya. In a flashback scene with his parents, neither calls him by name. This flashback, fascinatingly, is filmed in the first person, looking through Goncharov's own eyes. We are not allowed to see him as a younger, softer man. He refuses to show that side of himself even in the privacy of his memories.

These quieter moments contrast with scenes of ever-escalating brutality, as the Russians and Italians try to force each other to back down by the murder of underlings. The fact that it is literally a contest, and that Goncharov is aware of this and describes it as such, makes the worsening violence ever more meaningless. The death of Giglioli's confessor is particularly awful, and the way Goncharov's goons treat the chapel has to be ten times worse if you're Catholic (fun fact: this scene is apparently removed from the Italian version on Netflix, which must make what Andrey says while waiting for the train into a hell of a non sequitur).

At the climax, the two really can't do anything but kill each other, because it's the only place left to go. Giglioli's priest and mistress are dead. Goncharov's men are almost all dead or out of action, and Goncharov believes Andrey to be dead. The initial insult, whatever it was, is no longer relevant. They have pushed each other to a place where reconciliation is unthinkable. Whoever blinks first loses, but both have already lost so much that victory means nothing. Worse, each recognizes that the other is in the same position, and neither can acknowledge it.

This means Goncharov can also moonlight as an examination of violence in media. Why do movies showcase violence, and why do we watch it? The initial posturing serves a purpose - Goncharov wants Giglioli to know he's here to personally demand an apology, and Giglioli wants Goncharov to know he's outnumbered and should quit while he still can. But once it becomes an exercise in one-up-manship, the 'messages’ vanish and the men are now killing for the sake of killing. Violence in movies can often be gore for gore's sake, pulling out more and more stops in the effort to shock an audience that has been desensitized by years and years of this. That is what Goncharov and Giglioli are doing to each other. Truly distressing moments like the fate of the priest, or what Giuseppe "Icepick Joe" Cozzolino (dressed as a maid!) does to Sofia when he assumes she's Katya because she was in Katya's hotel room, make us wonder why we're watching this - and the mobsters wonder why they're doing it.

In the end, it's all just a blood-soaked version of the sunk cost fallacy. Goncharov had come too far in his vendetta to stop now. Andrey has followed him too far to turn back. Katya has been married to him too long to leave. Of course, any of them could quit at any time and escape from this terrible spiral, but they are unwilling to entertain the possibility. Like Goncharov himself, Andrey and Katya are prisoners of the identities they have built for themselves, and because their identities are so tied to him, they have to go down with him.

One thing I haven't seen a lot of discussion of on tumblr is the way the film uses the contrast in climate. Goncharov in Moscow is in his element. When you see his breath in the wintry air it's as if he's breathing smoke like a dragon. While other people huddle in the cold he stands up straight and tall. In Naples, on the other hand, he is out of place. He wears lighter clothing, but continues to choose long coats and upturned collars, while Giglioli goes around with his shirt unbuttoned. This should serve to emphasize Giglioli's home field advantage and yet, as we see through Goncharov's eyes, they just make Giglioli look soft. His apparent weakness makes Goncharov want to appear even stronger.

On a related note, it is interesting to me how sunlight is treated as something very unfriendly. In Russia, it glitters on ice crystals in the air and lights up condensation, harsh and white and giving no warmth whatsoever. In Italy it bakes and shimmers on stone and asphalt, casting harsh, black-edged shadows and emphasizing creased brows and frowning mouths. Outdoor scenes are, as far as I can tell, always hostile interactions. Even indoor scenes in natural light: the priest dies with harsh sunlight streaming in through the broken chapel window. When characters are softer with each other, it is always under artificial illumination. Sunlight is too bright, too revealing. People like this need some shadows to hide in.

Did I like this movie? That's a tough question. It's not really the type of movie you 'like'. It's definitely powerful and well-constructed, thoroughly absorbing and all that. There's a taste of Greek tragedy in the inevitability of the ending and the way Goncharov is eaten alive by hubris. But I wouldn't say I liked it. The characters are all terrible people whose arcs involve them getting worse, and the whole thing feels deeply claustrophobic, as if I, too, am trapped in Goncharov's downward spiral. When characters realize their mistakes, it is only when it's too late to correct them - but only in their own minds. It's a very pessimistic story, about human beings who are overcome by the very worst parts of themselves.

Is Goncharov deserving of all those glowing reviews? Yes. Was it unfairly snubbed at the Oscars because the academy was turned off by the violence? Probably. Will I ever watch it again? Fuck, no.

Excuse me, I have to go watch some Pixar movies if I ever want to smile again.

#mst3k #reviews #episodes that never were #goncharov #70's #there are horses in this movie #unreality #in case you've been on twitter or something all day #this movie doesn't exist.#i read six text posts and pulled this out of my ass at one in the morning

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vendetta-if · 1 year

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What are the ROs, Luka, Jackal, Viktor, and Grandpa' opinion on the movie Goncharov (1973)?

Scorsese’s Goncharov (1973). A classic, undoubtedly one of the best mafia movies ever made😩

Ash

Watched it with MC and Luka. Thinks it’s pretty neat, doesn’t really care too much about the imageries and symbolisms, but loves its thrilling story and the tragedy. If MC likes it, then they have no problem with it 👍🏻 Also, they probably won’t admit this but their favorite character from the movie is ‘Ice Pick Joe’.

Rin

They enjoy it and approve of how Scorsese didn’t shy away from the gritty and violent portrayal of the world of organized crime.

Santana

Sadly has never watched it yet. Has heard of it, of course. They just have never been a huge movie enthusiast. Maybe your MC will be able to make them watch the movie with them? 🤔

Skylar

Watched it and loved it. The frames are well shot and as always with most of Scorsese’s movies, the acting by the actors are phenomenal. Not to mention, the drama and the tragic romance. Oof, Skylar can’t get enough of it 😩

Luka

Luka is kinda a film buff and he really loves it. Still thinks it’s one of Scorsese’s best works yet (yes, even better than ‘Taxi Driver’). Can talk and discuss about the imageries or just the scenes of the movie for hours! Don’t let him catch you saying that you haven’t watched Goncharov (1973) yet!

Jackal

Jackal is a victim of letting Luka hear that you have never watched Goncharov (1973) yet! Well, Luka has often invited Jackal to come watch some classic films together, so no big problem.

Here’s a snippet of their conversation after the movie is done:

Luka: “So… What do you think?”

Jackal: “I think that if Goncharov and Andrey just fucked, a lot of the deaths in the film could’ve been prevented.” [shurgs]

Luka: “W—What? But one of the themes of the movie is about inevitability… with all those ticking clocks imageries—”

Jackal: “Spare me that pretentious stuff and just take a second to picture what would happen if only they fucked and tell me that I’m wrong.”

Luka: … [thinking about it]

Jackal: …

Luka: [sighs] “You know what? You have a great point…”

Viktor

Can relate to Goncharov a bit, about trying to get away from your past and outrun the looming consequences dogging your footsteps, the inevitable karma making it feel as if you’re constantly running out of time.

Grandpa

Can relate a lot with Goncharov, as a fellow immigrant from the Soviet Union setting foot in a new country trying to build something better for his family and getting embroiled with the local criminal organizations.

The only difference is he succeeded, of course.

Grandma

Can understand and sympathize with Katya’s strained relationship with her husband, Goncharov. After all, her own marriage to Grandpa started out pretty rocky, but thankfully, they managed to fix that not long after her sons were born and they eventually fall in love for real.

Cara

She fell asleep halfway through the movie when Luka invited her and Viktor to watch it together. She only remembers the ice pick guy. Don’t tell Luka, please! He’ll ask her to watch it again with him.

Takashi

He would be most interested in the sexual tension between Goncharov and Andrey… No reason at all… Would totally agree with Jackal’s statement 😂

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okayplanetary · 1 year

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#fic recs – Goncharov (1973) [English] [No Crossovers] [SFW] [>1k words]

My personal top 5 recs for Goncharov (1973) fics currently on AO3. Click a moodboard to read just based on vibes. Or if you’re picky, full reviews & tags are below. (But you won't regret reading any of these.)

1 : A Brief Pause by QueenRiza [ot3]

2 : we, so like birds on broken wings (come to warn the sun of thieves) by IdentityConstellations [Katya-centric]

3 : what started as a fever by waterandsilver [Sofia-centric]

4 : Coffee O’Clock by Erisah_Mae [Coffee Shop AU]

5 : I’ve Got My Love to Keep Me Warm by jriracha [Modern AU] [ot4]

(+1) : Real Power by Mortalmab [Ice Pick Joe]

Preface

The great thing about Goncharov (1973) fics is that you barely even need to be familiar with the source material to enjoy them and understand what's going on. The film was rediscovered only about a week ago, and the fans have taken to it with an enthusiasm that borders on the deranged and alarming. At the time of posting (26-11-2022) there are over 580 fics on the Archive—when I started this two days ago, there were about 100 fewer.

I've now read well over a hundred fics in this fandom and I've gotta say there are some incredible bangers. The 2022 revival of Goncharov (1973) has clearly sparked a ton of creativity—I lost count of how many author’s notes I saw from people who hadn’t written in years or were posting for the first time. I added at least 20 titles to my list of faves before (agonizingly) needing to narrow it down.

Overall, fics for Goncharov (1973) are more aesthetic and character-driven than plot-focused, so they’re a pleasure to read if you're in a literary mood. I had a ton of fun putting together my moodboards because these stories are all so decadently evocative. And we love tropes in this fandom, so if you're a bit of a film nerd, you might recognize a few motifs from the movie!

Lastly, shoutout to @clockworkspider’s recent post on fic recs in fandom for inspiring me to do this.

These 5 (+1) fics range from 1k–6k words and are non-explicit, but may include canon-typical violence.

1 : A Brief Pause by QueenRiza [ot3] [character study] [canon-compliant] [Katya] [Andrey]

A Brief Pause just squeaked past my 1k word cutoff for this list, but its 1,034 words are absolutely packed with insinuation and exhilarating sexual tension. Reading this felt like biting into a chocolate truffle—so rich and luxurious you only need a little.

This fic is a true OT3 among Goncharov, Katya, and Andrey, and you get a strong sense of the link between each of them. It’s a vignette centred on an exchange between Katya and Andrey, set after the boat scene. Since it’s canon-compliant, don’t expect a happy ending—still, it left me feeling electrified (and honestly, a little hot under the collar). I’m personally obsessed with this OT3 so this one gets top billing from me, though each fic on this list is top-tier in its niche.

CW: [canon-typical violence]

2 : we, so like birds on broken wings (come to warn the sun of thieves) by IdentityConstellations [Katya-centric] [Goncharov/Katya] [canon-compliant] [character study]

A multi-chapter Katya character study? Yes, please! we, so like birds on broken wings follows Katya's perspective on her marriage to Goncharov starting from pre-canon. Its imagery is vivid and striking, and it paints Katya in a softer light than we see in the film.

Although the focus of the story is Katya and Goncharov's relationship, we also get tastes of Goncharov/Andrey and Andrey/Katya, and a whisper of Katya/Sofia. It’s character-focused, introspective, and poignant, offering the reader glimpses of emotion as the plot advances inexorably in the background. It's beautiful in a tragic way—much like Katya herself.

CW: [canon-typical violence] [period-typical sexism] [non-graphic implied murder] [implied infidelity]

3 : what started as a fever by waterandsilver [Sofia-centric] [Goncharov/Katya] [Katya/Sofia]

I never knew how much I needed a fic about grungy 70s lesbian mobsters until I read what started as a fever. A very slight AU that imagines how the story might have gone if Sofia were a member of Goncharov’s crew. To wit: quite differently and yet much the same.

Perhaps some things are inevitable even if you are an incredibly cool, hot, and buff lesbian working for the mob in grungy 1970s Naples and pining for a married bisexual woman. Sofia makes the best of it, and this fic gives a visceral rendition of her side of the story.

CW: [canon-typical violence] [infidelity] [betrayal] [non-explicit mentions of past sex] [lavender marriage]

4 : Coffee O’Clock by Erisah_Mae [Coffee Shop AU] [Goncharov/Katya] [Katya/Sofia]

No fandom is complete without a coffee shop AU, and thankfully Coffee O’Clock has us covered. It might also be considered a “for want of a nail” fic—Katya runs a coffee shop in Naples blissfully unaware that it’s a front for the mob, and Goncharov doesn’t have the heart to tell her.

It features a guest appearance by fan fave Ice Pick Joe and plenty of Italian coffee drink snobbery. It’s a little less serious and evocative than most stories for Goncharov (1973) aim for, but overall it’s an utterly charming read with no bad vibes.

CW: [none]

5 : I’ve Got My Love to Keep Me Warm by jriracha [Modern AU] [ot4] [Goncharov/Andrey] [Katya/Sofia] [Goncharov/Katya] [fluff]

I admit this fandom has a tendency toward very aesthetic angst, and I’m personally guilty of indulgence in the same, but sometimes all you want is a fic where everything is beautiful and nothing hurts. I've Got My Love to Keep Me Warm is that fic for Goncharov (1973).

This story is cotton candy fluff, where our four faves play board games and kiss in their cozy apartment. In this AU, there’s no mafia, no betrayal, and lots of love. You will be happy you read this.

CW: [none]

+1 : Real Power by Mortalmab [Ice Pick Joe] [Katya] [strong female character] [no relationships]

It’s simply not possible to put together a list of 5 things in fandom without adding a +1, and Real Power certainly deserves a mention. There are no ships. The main character is Ice Pick Joe.

Ice Pick Joe, a slightly-above-goon-tier mobster, meets Katya and gets a free lesson on power. She doesn’t use an ice pick.

CW: [canon-typical violence] [illness] [asphyxiation] [non-graphic past murder]

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sepublic · 1 year

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TOH’s Goncharov Reference?

All right, so you know that rabbit hole I mentioned earlier about Katya TOH and Katya Goncharov having similarities, to the point that the former may very well be a reference to the latter from Goncharov? Screw it, let me put forth what I’ve noticed;

Firstly, there’s the obvious shared name; But there’s also Katya TOH’s choice of palisman, a rhinoceros beetle, which resembles a bejeweled one that Katya Goncharov has in her jewelry collection. It’s an admittedly obscure blink-and-you’ll-miss-it set piece, but also kind of a specific coincidence, since Katya Goncharov doesn’t have anything else fashioned after the likeness of an animal, much less one as uncommon in jewelry as a rhinoceros beetle (which I, personally, feel is underlooked in regards to symbolism).

During the iconic market stall scene, Katya and Sofia discuss the apple and pomegranate, with the former seen as representative to Katya, and vice-versa. The two swap fruits between their hands, which we all agree is them offering both their soul and enticing seduction to the other; So not only are the two represented by produce, but the scene ends with the apple and pomegranate placed in the same basket... Could this have inspired Katya TOH’s hobby of writing food falling in love with each other? And how she was arrested for this, which could mirror Katya Goncharov’s sapphic love being criminalized?

(If so, then Katya TOH helping Luz make it to her girlfriend Amity, held captive by Abomatons and Covenscouts, is almost tragic; Like the original Katya Goncharov couldn’t make it to Sofia past the rival gang, but she can ensure that another pair of star-crossed WLW get the happiness they yearn for.)

Then we have Katya from both stories being a criminal working underground, with Katya TOH even escaping the authorities and finding refuge at a beach, similar to how Katya Goncharov enters the beach through a pipe in the lead up to the climactic boat scene; Both entering the sewers to do so via manhole! Plus, a lot of Katya (Goncharov)’s character is about cyclical tragedy; The more things change, the more they frustratingly stay the same.

We learn from Goncharov himself that Katya escaped to Naples partially to avoid the ramifications of her past life coming back to haunt her; Especially her brief time in prison, which reminds me a lot of Katya TOH being introduced to us in the Conformatorium. Massimo’s threat of having her past life exposed also plays a role in Katya’s mission to assassinate Andrey, with Katya having to once more flee to another city at the end of the film (just as she fled to Naples at the start); Reminiscent of how Katya TOH laments “Not again!” when she’s returned to the Conformatorium. Both characters have experience with prison and dread returning to it, although only Katya TOH has to revisit that.

Not to mention, this innocuous little bit between Derwin and Katya, which seems to mirror the scene in which Katya carries an injured Sofia away from the shootout;

(Does this make Katya/Derwin canon? Am I gonna have to analyze similarities between Derwin and Sofia...?)

Keep in mind, we didn’t learn Katya’s name until S2, which does make me wonder if she was always intended to be a reference to the character from Goncharov, or if it just sorta happened as the crew wrote Eda’s Requiem and they realized the stuff that had already been set in place in the first episode; But some of that stuff, particularly the food fanfiction, does seem a bit too perfect of a match to have not been planned from the start.

Especially since Katya is conspicuously absent from any background shots, unlike her fellow prisoners Tinella Nosa and the Plant Witch who eats his Eyeballs; And they couldn’t have written Katya’s role in S2 in response to fan popularity, since S1 was written prior to audience reception. Which makes it seem as if they singled Katya out to be absent totally independent of the fandom’s treatment of her, ergo she was always meant to be a rebel; Ergo, Fanfic Witch was always meant to be a Goncharov reference.

We’ve already had Flora D’esplora, who’s a blatant Dora the Explorer reference and despite being a joke character, fulfills multiple purposes to the story in her debut. A brief, recurring side-character being a reference a Scorsese film might not be THAT out of the question, but I can see how it’s a stretch... At the very least, it makes me motivated to HC a lot of Katya TOH’s backstory as having parallels to Katya Goncharov; And both characters having a gun from the start would certainly make their stories a lot shorter. I hope this doesn’t foreshadow anything grim for Katya in S3. Also, I now want to see fanart of Katya TOH in Katya Goncharov’s attire... And vice-versa???

#the owl house #goncharov #the owl house katya #katya goncharov #katya toh #speculation #parallels #unreality

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sunflower-butch · 1 year

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I present to you: the greatest au, Goncharov Ronance au

So ofc Nancy is Katya. Literally, they are one and the same. We love gun wielding, emotionally repressed, badass lesbians in this household.

Robin is Sofia! She and Nancy have just,,, so much tension through the whole fucking thing like Katya and Sofia. And Robin in that cocktail dress!!!

Steve is Goncharov, our tragic hero who destroys himself. (I’m writing this from Katya/Nancy’s POV tho, sorry Goncharov)

Eddie is Andrey, and I’m enjoying the idea of him in an eyepatch.

Nancy and Steve were married, but obviously they have their respective homoerotic partnerships with Robin and Eddie.

Katya’s father dies = Ted Wheeler dies, score!!

Ofc the boat scene with Ronance!!! It’s incredible!!! Nancy bleeding out, almost dying while Robin whispers sweet nothings and tends to her wounds.

The apple scene! The tension is red delicious, come on. And don’t even get me started on Nancy protecting Robin.

Nancy threatening Steve feels like retribution for the movie theatre scene in Stranger Things, even though the doesn’t happen in Goncharov. Let Nancy Wheeler threaten to shoot people 2022

God, I know Katya dies and betrays Sofia but,,, I’m a soft bitch and I’m changing it. I’m thinking the betrayal still happens, but instead of burying our gays, Robin comes back because she loves Nancy and saves her, and then they end up forgiving each other.

Just. Ronance in Mafia suits!!! Tell me you see the vision!!!

The Beer Scene? Enough said.

Oh, and Argyle is ice pick Joe because it’s funny.

Oops I accidentally ignored the main characters, but come on, Katya!Nancy and Sofia!Robin deserve the spotlight

Not to mention the clock symbology matching up so well with Vecna’s clock!

#goncharov #ronance #goncharov ronance #god this is such a shitpost #trying to keep up with the Lore #pretend I know what I’m talking about #anyway #everyone go watch goncharov 🤪#robin x nancy #nancy x robin #Nancy wheeler #Robin Buckley

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imperfectrebelliousraven · 1 year

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What gets me most about Goncharov (1973) is how utterly tragic it is. Like, you have these two salt of the earth siblings in Sophie and Mario running from the trauma of being surrounded by the mafia and working so hard to free themselves from the damage and influence; only to lose each other as Katya sucks Sophie right back into the life Mario tried his damndest to get her away from.

Then you have Katya stuck in the patriarchal system that completely disregards her as being just a pretty face when she’s arguably the most intelligent and capable character in the movie. She was right to betray Goncharov after everything she endured for him to maintain his position, especially after what he pulled on the train to Moscow. Hiring Ice Pick Joe was the best thing she could have done for herself but she still lost the man that was once her closest friend and that slow realization that the one you have given everything for is slipping from your fingers twists the heart so sweetly.

And Sophie has already lost so much to the Italians and then to lose her brother to the husband of the woman she’s in love with, she tripped and fell into the past she was running from and it cost her the only family she had left! y’all that boat scene ripped my heart out!

Though tbh I could care less about Goncharov, he got what was coming to him after nearly a decade of being a weasel, like the moment in the head office with Ivan was enough to show me he deserved his misery. I do feel bad for Andrey though like that was one hell of a workplace rival to lovers' romance and in the end he had to leave wondering if what Goncharov felt for him was genuine or if he was being used like Katya was.

#goncharov #unreality #katya deserved better #Sophie/Katya #goncherov/andrey #gonchrey #goncherov 1973 #Ice pick joe #the train scene oh my god #katsoph #Goncherov thoughts

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some-assholes-familiar · 1 year

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I’m pretty sure it’s already been said but god I just love how no one in Goncharov (1973) is innocent. There’s no good guys here, no one who doesn’t carry some form of regret for violence in their past.

Goncharov himself is probably the most explicit example of this, sparking a good amount of conflict in the film from almost the beginning by trying to outrun violence without confronting his sins and his own mortality, but as much as Katya models herself as innocent (dressing in white acting clueless when Aundre asks her about her husband, etc) she’s still got that violence in her past and seems (at least to me) less angry at goncharov for his involvement with the mafia than she is at his attempts to pretend all of that never happened (whilst still engaging in it! Like c’mon man just hang up the phone) and that’s not even mentioning her final decision to kill him at the clock tower, quite literally staining her with blood ( although if I’m being honest it reads more to me as her being honest with the blood on her hands, to Sofia and herself, a woman taking hold of her own story which is just phenomenal for a film made in the 70’s honestly). Then of course you have Sofia, herself having a violent past hinted at through her interactions with Katya and ice pick joe, loving Katya unflinchingly in spite of the blood on her hands (and saying she looks better in red guh I love that line) and knowing probably full well, without Katya even having to say it, that it’s Goncharov. Then there’s Andre who was right there alongside Goncharov working for the mafia and despite having an objectively better grasp on accepting his own mortality and the role he plays in perpetuating this cycle of violence (though honestly our boy gonch does not make that hard) still finds it so hard to accept it when he himself is directly responsible in goncharov’s death despite knowing full well his blood is on his hands going into this and being fully prepared to take his life seemingly from the get go).

There’s a lot of classic tragedies out there, but I’ve never seen anyone tackle themes like the cycle of violence and momento mori as well goncharov 1973, a story that is only as effective as it is because as much as you know no one is close to innocent from the get go, you still feel for them and hurt for their shared humanity and complexities that inevitably fall short as a result of their own actions.

Tragedy is only really effective as a result of an audience’s ability to see themselves in the characters, but I love just how much Martin Scorsese and Matteo JWHJ 0715 placed importance on the idea that no one here can be innocent, they’ve lost that right to call themselves unambiguously ‘good’ a long time ago. They are all flawed and they are all objectively not great people for a variety of reasons, but you still feel for them regardless. They’re all tragic figures not necessarily because they’re all victims of circumstance but largely as a direct result of the choices they made and the chances they didn’t take that eventually led to the tragic ending we all know and love. They’re the ones that set the clock on their own lives, and it’s spectacular that the filmmakers managed to make us understand that whilst communicating so effectively their own feelings of helplessness.

So yeah, homoerotic mafia movie and all that. Thanks for reading through this rant on a movie I’d honestly not thought to watch myself until very recently.

#goncharov 1973 #analysis #film analysis #rant #unreality #wish I’d gotten onto the bandwagon sooner #goncharov #katya goncharova #sofia modigliani #aundre #the greatest mafia movie of all time

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hybridempress · 1 year

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I think my favorite thing about Goncharov (1973) is that it's a perfect example of how good storytelling can show you that two characters are in love with one another without explicitly stating it.

Many people have already spoken at great length about how hollywood's homophobia and transphobia stifled the creation of well-written queer romances in film and forced many creators to limit the romances between their characters to simple subtext, some of which we may never receive full confirmation of even now in 2022. And while that certainly played a small hand in how Goncharov as a movie was written, that's not what I want to talk about in this post.

The fact of the matter was that having Katya end up with Sofia or having Andrey or Mario confess love for Goncharov (or vice versa) would have completely destroyed the meaning of the film. Part of these characters struggling and ultimately failing to understand who they are or what they are living for includes them struggling with their interpersonal relationships with one another and failing to ever find out what they truly mean to one another. However, this doesn't mean that their relationships are a mystery for us as the audience to figure out.

Katya is explicitly depicted as a bisexual woman struggling with her love for her husband versus the temptation to try something new--meaning Sofia. Katya's love for Goncharov is strong and real, but Sofia presents something to Katya that Katya has never had before. Something that Katya wants but is too scared to take hold of. Katya doesn't stay with her husband because she isn't actually in love with Sofia, she stays with her husband because she is afraid of accepting that she wants change in her life. She's scared of it. And this, among other things, is one of the core reasons why she ends up betraying Goncharov in the end. Katya wants what she can't have--that is, she wants both Goncharov AND Sofia and the narrative makes this inner turmoil VERY clear

On the other hand, it doesn't seem that Goncharov loves Katya as much as she loves him. This is made apparent in the way that he is emotionally disconnected from her throughout the entire movie, but it is made ESPECIALLY clear in the scene of Katya's betrayal. For Katya, loving Goncharov means setting both of them free. She tells him as much when she tells him that the reason she tried to shoot him is because they're in love with each other. But when Goncharov tells her "if we really were in love, you wouldn't have missed" it shows that to Goncharov their relationship is not stable. They don't know each other as well as they should, and Katya fundamentally does not have the bravery to admit that something is wrong between them or to work towards something new because again, change scares her.

That scene sets up a DIRECT parallel to both when Mario betrays Goncharov--not killing him directly but killing his spirit, killing his soul--and when Andrey shoots and kills him at the end of the movie. Both of the relationships that Goncharov had with these two men were more complex, intricate, and deeper to him than his relationship with Katya was. And he knew at the end of the day that these two men understood him more deeply than he himself did, or than anyone else ever could. So while there was no direct confession of love, the act of these two men each killing Goncharov in their own ways where Katya failed to do so is a metaphor for how deeply connected they were, how in a different life maybe they could have explored these feelings for each other, but what makes their relationships so tragic and beautiful is that they were never meant to be.

And personally, I just think the story works better this way. I think Goncharov is one of the few films where the queer relationships staying in the "subtext" is actually beneficial for the narrative of the story, because it's still THERE. You don't even have to look that hard to see it. It's very explicit, it's just that it's explicit through storytelling. It's explicit in action. It's explicit in words. It's just not explicit in "i love you" with a kiss. And I just think that makes it more beautiful.

#goncharov 1973 #goncharov #katya x sofia #goncharov x andrey #goncharov lore #unreality #em rose.txt #i cannot believe ive become so invested in this stupid movie #but the storytelling in it is just amazing #it's truly one of the best pieces of fiction that has ever existed BECAUSE of how nuanced it is #and i think people just miss these themes in the story when we've been talking about it recently

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grassoftheeast · 1 year

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Something that I'm not seeing actually talked about too much in this film is the fact that Goncharov and Katya actually have a compelling relationship beyond the seemingly only two types of straight relationships that exist in western media: married couple that hate each other or two pretty white people kissing in the rain with no problems ever.

Goncharov is a deeply broken man who goes from crisis to crisis and was clearly completely directionless before Katya, and Katya is an analytical, complex female character who is both strong and desperate to nurture. The absolute pain at this movie comes at her betrayal, when she says, "I was not the woman who made you a man in the same way you were not the man I was made a woman to be with." Goncharov and Katya have been through so much pain and crisis together, through Mafia and assassination attempts and failed pregnancies, and yet it was not lack of love that kept them apart, but the crisis that kept them together. As Goncharov put it, "My greatest crime was never in my work, but instead in the moments I could not love her."

Katya is not "ewww evil bitch" like so many of those neckbeard film critics come away from this movie thinking she is, but instead someone who was born hurting and had to survive which made her continue to hurt to keep surviving. It is tragic that Goncharov died at her hands, but it was inevitable in the same way is was inevitable they would end up together and stay together as long as they did: Goncharov needs to continue to be broken in the same way that Katya needs to continue to break. If you're gonna afford sympathy to Goncharov for being traumatized, you have to afford that same sympathy to Katya, despite how it manifests differently in them both.

Now THAT is how you write a compelling relationship.

#goncharov #robert de niro #goncharov 1973 #martin scorsese

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kurarame · 1 year

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Next year we will be celebrating the 50th anniversary of the greatest mafia movie (n)ever made and I am so happy that we are finally respecting this masterpiece.

Since middle school, I am OBSESSED with Katya. She is such a complex femme fatal with depth and her broken soul touch me so much. Tragic female character can be very cliché but Katya is the blue print. I love her to death, I had to draw her again.

#goncharov #1973 #martin scorsese #goncharov 1973 #katya x sofia #katya my beloved #katya #andrey daddano #lo straniero #al pacino #robert de niro #gene hackman #harvey keitel #john cazale #cybill shepherd #fanart #femme fatale #unreality #i love her

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redvanillabee · 1 year

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Hey Edna, I’ve been thinking a lot about the similarities between Katya (Goncharov 1973), and Peggy Carter in terms of agency and being heard within their respective communities. Would love to hear your thoughts

Oh where do we begin!

There are definitely parallels between Katya and Peggy. Like you said, both of them struggle at first with being heard. That opening scene of the mafia meeting, when the audience literally only see slivers of her through fancy Italian suits, and even her ‘yes’ to being told to bring more coffee is barely heard. It does remind me of Peggy’s line about how she’s invisible unless she’s got someone’s file or coffee or something.

Unfortunately, for the first half of the film, Katya actually cuts a much more tragic figure than Peggy. One distinct difference is, of course, that Peggy has got allies in her male-dominated world, while Katya does not. Peggy at least has got Jarvis and Daniel; Katya does not have that privilege. All the men around her are planted there by, well, other men. Her bodyguards are her husband’s henchmen. And unlike Peggy, who chooses to stay at the SSR despite the slights and abuses, Katya is stuck with Goncharov. Even Andrey Daddano, who is probably the nicest—comparatively speaking—man to Katya in the whole film, is too busy staring moon-eyed at Goncharov to really notice Katya’s plight and her call for help.

(Basically—imagine AC S1 if Daniel is entirely too preoccupied with staring longingly at Jack, and completely ignoring Peggy's struggles in the office. That’s how sad it is for Katya.)

We also see Katya relying a lot more on…well, being a woman than Peggy does, and Peggy does that a lot already. Because beneath the taking advantage of sexism and all, Peggy is a skilled spy. Once she has seduced a man into distraction (102 Sweet Dreams lipstick where would Peggy be without you), she can handle all the tasks herself. Katya could not do that. Both because of a lack of skill and because of physical confinement at times, not only does Katya have to rely on seducing men to get places, she has to manipulate them and sometimes even give them favours to get things done, which places her in a much more vulnerable position than Peggy has ever been in.

Then there is, of course, the kiss between her and Sofia, which does call to mind the kiss between Dottie and Peggy in 1x06. However, I do have to give credits to Goncharov for one thing: while AC plays into the kiss of death trope, Goncharov quite smartly subverts it. Because see—like Peggy, Katya falls victim to internalised misogyny and underestimates Sofia, writing her off as nothing more than a henchman’s arm candy. So when she kisses Sofia to incriminate her, on the surface, it reads like a kiss of death. BUT it actually is through Sofia that Katya finally finds her ticket to freedom.

In fact, I would even argue that comparing Katya to Dottie is more appropriate than comparing her to Peggy. Sure, on the surface it sounds like lazy analysis—just directly comparing two Russian characters. But from the perspective of both Dottie and Katya, their female connections are what give them a chance to escape and finally build their own lives. Dottie is used by Ivchenko, instead of being allowed to plan a mission herself. If she has struck a deal with Jack in early S2 instead of taking advantage of her connection to Peggy, she would never have had the chance to run free after the party. Same for Katya—she has kissed multiple men in the film, but by seducing and finally kissing Sofia, she found someone who can actually help her escape Goncharov’s control.

There is something almost Thelma and Louise-esque in the ending, when we see Katya at her husband’s funeral looking more relieved than mournful, and the teasing closing shot of Sofia observing—if not waiting—on the periphery of the funeral party. That is honestly a far kinder treatment of a lesbian relationship than I would ever have expected from a 1970s film. (And to think Marvel teased us a Cartinelli ending then never brought Angie back…for shame, Feige, for shame…)

References: [Link 1] [Link 2]

#answers #likea-black-widow-baby #this is one of the wildest things I’ve ever written for tumblr #people: oh so what are you doing with your ba in English?#me: …writing spoof film analysis on tumblr dot com?#my meta #goncharov #unreality

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heterophobicmaxanne · 1 year

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While much has been made of the inarguably homoerotic tension between Andrey and Goncharov, both after the 1973 premiere and after its' recent rediscovery, Katya and Sofia's relationship and especially its' lesbian subtext has been sadly underexplored - despite the fact that in many ways, their relationships homoeroticism mirrors and refigures that of Andrey and Goncharov just as much as the relationship in general does. The general themes of competition within the Mafia world, creating or finding an heir, Freud's Thanatos and Eros drives and class all colour Katya and Sofias relationship as much as they do Andrey and Goncharovs. Scholars thus rightfully regard Katya and Sofia as a foil to Goncharov and Andrey, noting the similarly tragic ending but consistenly ignoring the similarly present but much more subtle queer implications.

And, to a certain degree, this is understandable: the progression of Katya's feelings for Sofia from anger and almost hatred for the woman trying to ensnare her husband and replace her to an exploitative look at Sofia as her ticket to freedom to begrudging yet genuine respect and something resembling care already asks viewers to suspend their disbelief, consindering how little screen time this relationship actually receives. Vice versa, Sofia regards Katya first as an obstacle to securing her own future and then as a manipulator abusing her class privilege trying to damn her to a life Katya herself attempts to escape who she has to and finally manages to outwit. Especially the fact that Katya is a rich, educated Russian socialite who chose the life of a Mafiosi wife when she could have chosen differently and then tries to move Sofia - who has never really had a choice - into this life Katya now wants to escape seems like an unsourmantable reason for Sofia's deepened antagonism towards Katya in the second half of the movie. That erotic or romantic feelings and a relationship could develop between these two characters, in these conditions, seems almost preposterous. But does it seem more preposterous than the idea that an aging Mafiosi and the man sent to kill him could form such an attachment? And if it does not, as I would argue, why have both the audience and many scholars been able to suspend their disbelief for Andrey and Goncharov's homoeroticism but are unable or unwilling to do so fo Katya and Sofia?

One - almost painfully obvious reason - is of course screen time: Katya and Sofia are given at best a third of the time the movie takes to flesh out Andrey's and Goncharov's dynamic. However, the second reason seems much more important to me. It seems like the introduction of Sofia as a love interest for Goncharov and challenger to Katya has locked Sofia into the character dynamic as solely heterosexual in most of the audience's mind. Additionally, the classic analysis in which the eponymous Goncharov is the protagonist and all character dynamics in the movie are to be analyzed as to how they affect him does not need to be abandoned to account for Andrey's and Goncharov's homoeroticism but it squarely obscures a lesbian reading of Sofia and Katya. But Katya, too, is named and is thus Goncharov: she, too, can be the eponymous protagonist. In this more postmodernist reading, the movie stops being about one man and three people struggling with and for and against him, and becomes about the relationships and struggles between four people, all of which are given equal weight.

Finally, there is a third reason that Katya and Sofia's lesbian relationship remains understudied. Goncharov and Andrey are not just given far more time on screen, they are also given many opportunities for tenderness, beginning with Goncharov cooking Andrey pasta and ending with Goncharov's memory-hallucination of the famous cigarette scene. Katya and Sofia are not given such room; apart from the pearl scene, they never touch, and even that scene is primarily framed through a lense of heterosexual competition for Goncharov. The movie locks the characters into their heterosexual prison-norms: Goncharov and Andrey's male homosociability can only turn into subtext homosexuality in moments of violence and death, in intricate and hallucinated rituals allowing them to touch each others skin and at least in their fantasy escape fate, as Rubek (2003) has so expertly delineated. And, in true 1970s patriarchal fashion, the movie can only present Katya and Sofia as heterosexual women, struggling for the affection of and power given by proximity to a man in a way that destroys them both to the point where they, one after the other, die off-screen.

But much like we as the audience, as critics and scholars, can see past these norms for Andrey and Goncharov, we can and should also see past them for Katya and Sofia - especially because they are not even given on-screen deaths. It is the lack of screen time that creates ambiguity, that allows and asks us to take small gestures from short frames to imagine them safe, and it is their seeming antagonism over the idea of Sofia replacing Katya that can be read as the source of their affection. Because what if rather than trying and failing to damn Sofia to take her place to save herself, Katya takes Sofia’s sudden unwillingness to play her part and her growing resentment seriously and decides to save her instead? And what if in turn, this is what allows Sofia to save Katya? What if, in and after the pearl scene, they are no longer struggling for the affection of Goncharov and power over each other but begin struggling simply for affection and power, power to shape their own fates? And, most importantly, what if they - and thus, Katya Goncharov - succeed?

Holly McPhearson, „Failures of the Imagination: Absent Lesbians and Heterosexual Prisons in Scorseses Goncharov.“ Journal of Lesbian Studies, vol. 24, no. 1, 2020, pp. 33-49.

#goncharov #katya goncharov #katya x sofia #sofia x katya #goncharov (1973)#goncharov x katya #goncharov x andrey #this has driven me insane #sorry except I’m not

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cicadaemon · 1 year

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I'm sorry I am on a spree right now but we had to watch Goncharov for Cinema History when I was in high school and I went nuts for that movie then so let me just say I just love how fatherhood is portrayed throughout the movie, especially with Goncharov and Katya.

They're both characters that feel the weight of their respective fathers' deaths and it is one of the few points of connection they have in their failing marriage, but my god the differences. Katya feels guilty for her father's death, but ultimately there's nothing she could or couldn't have done to prevent it. It was out of her hands and the fact that it haunts her so deeply to the point that it jeopardizes her relationship with Sofia is so tragic. But it lends to her character. She shoulders everyone else's burdens to a damaging degree. It's horrible that when she finally decides to live for herself too much damage has been done. We all know how the boathouse scene ends.

Meanwhile, Goncharov is totally to blame for his father's death. He had a hand to play in it. But his refusal to take responsibility for it and thrust it off onto other people in a pathetic ploy for revenge is what is ultimately his downfall. Andrey dies because he just can't accept that his actions have consequences. Goncharov spent the entire film trying to convince others and himself that he isn't a monster and when the only person who believes him human, which is obviously Andrey, dies there's nothing left except this horrific crime.

The absolute tragedy of this movie fucking shakes me. I don't even have time to get into Joe's whole thing about fathers, but that man needs therapy for what his dad did to him.

#goncharov (1973)#goncharov #unreality

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inky-for-a-bit · 1 year

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I know, I know, everyone talks about Goncharov's themes of overcoming your past, the cycle of violence, the Gay, etc. but I feel like the theme of seeking home needs to be talked about more too! I love how all the main characters are trying to find a new or an old home in different ways.

Let's start with Goncharov: he obviously wants to be the Big Tough Mafia Man (tm) and does his best to burn all his links to his past. And in the present, his home/marriage with Katya is falling apart, and he starts to find happiness with Andry. Regardless of whether you read Goncharov and Andry's love as romantic or platonoic, Goncharov accidently finds a home in his relationship with Andry yet still clings to his life with the Mafia and his "perfect" marriage to Katya. He rejects both his past and present homes.

And of course Andrey's whole thing throughout the film is running from his past. He's ashamed of what he's done and is afraid that he'll never be accepted or find a home anywhere. He has no one. Until he meets Goncharov. Then he slowly realizes throughout the movie that it might be possible to find love and a home. But of course he has to deal with the period-typical/internalized homophobia and the inherent tragedy in that Andrey knows nothing but to betray and destroy relationships and protect himself so that of course leads to an ending where he loses his home only after he had it within reach.

Next, Katya. I love the parallels between her and Andrey- both have regrets in their past that they are trying to escape from, both feel that they are unworthy of love or having a home, neither are sure they even know what home is. Katya obviously didn't have a happy childhood with her rich family that only cared about connections and politics and marriage. Katya doesn't want to return to her past. She's never had a home, and has no home to return to, and no idea of what home feels like.

Katya's arc is tied to Sophia's. Unlike other characters, Sophia does have a home that she loves, but she cannot return to. After the death of her parents, Sophia grew up in an orphanage and then when that burned to the ground it's implied she lived on the streets for a while. Her home has constantly been uprooted and destroyed, so her arc is figuring out where and with whom to make her new home. Sophia is afraid she'll find home and won't belong. She's afraid she'll never find a home where she'll feel true belonging and love, so she runs from love and home. This is what makes Sophia's offer to Katya to run away together so important. This is the moment where both Katya and Sophia realize that they can create "home" together, that it is possible to find home.

And I love how Sophia's home theme parallels Ice Pick Joe's! We never see Joe's parents- it's implied that his parents died when he was young and he was raised by his brother Giorno. Giorno was his entire family, his home. After Giorno's death and Joe's breakdown resulting in him being institutionalized, Joe loses his only home. Both Joe and Sophia lost homes that they long so, so much to return to, but never can. The difference is in how their stories end and it is so tragic to see how things could've been different.

Just... how these people come from such different homes or lack of homes and try to find new homes in such different ways and learning that home can be such different things arghahga I live for that sort of thing

#goncharov #goncharov meta #katya goncharov #sophia goncharov #ice pick joe #andrey goncharov #unreality #rtwae

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stimmingandstruggling · 1 year

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sorry tcw fandom but i’ve been a tcw blog long before i was a gonch blog and i’m autistic. anyways GONCHAROV CHARACTERS AS TCW SONGS FROM EACH ALBUM (i’m sorry mario enjoyers i just didn’t have enough ideas for him)

safe ship, harbored

goncharov: hole in the silver lining. the tragic hero, the bringer of his own doom.

andrey: ancient history. i thought of giving this one to gonch but idk dude, the Vibes just fit better. andrey has more of that bitterness you know?

katya: can’t have it all. i’m sorry queen i was pretty stuck for this one but yeah she is so valid and i choose to believe she simply cut everyone off and started over she isNOT dead

sofia: october. sofia my love. she makes me sad. she loved katya so much and. katya ilyt but damn.

ice pick joe: i ain’t done. this ALSO almost went to andrey! but yeah i really love his motives and storyline of this revenge against the system that hurt him and i think he deserves to be more evil actually

tfihwg

gonch: tongues and teeth. king of tragic doomed unhealthy relationships ig. also the gonchandrey was too good to pass up

andrey: steady, steady. primarily again because vibes. i just think he’s neat!! but also a doomed love because they cannot be free……

katya: the glacier house OR show your fangs. glacier house bc again “bundle up darling, you’re on your own now”, show your fangs bc shes a girlboss and i love when she kills people

sofia: shallow river i mean COME ON. sapphics. in love with a married woman. love but also bitterness at her betrayal. i just think she would silently cry to this

ip joe: strangler fig. again i just want him to go off ok? i am so proud of him for at least trying to escape this cycle of violence but also he deserves his revenge.

coyote stories

gonch: never love an anchor. tell me i’m wrong. tragic hero. this is just Right

andrey: allies or enemies. i’m sorry for being sexy and right and being obsessed with gonchandrey. but like….. his conflicting loyalties, u know

katya: metaphor. gaslight gatekeep girlboss. no i cannot trust her. i love her though

sofia: hard sell. i just think she deserves a good day. and a break.

ip joe: rockslide. i just think they’re neat ok

foxlore

gonch: can’t go back. i mean. fuck dude that’s the movie. he can’t escape from his past.

andrey: curses. gay tension. religious imagery. dying together. fuck!!!!!!

katya: ribs. aaaaaaa obsessed with her and her desperation for freedom and to finally be her own person apart from her shitty connections.

sofia: the garden. again i am simply gesturing wildly i think it is her!!!!!

ip joe: down the river. let him snap. more. please

#again tcw fandom i am sorry #but i have cried with y’all over these songs so now they get blorbos #unreality #goncharov #goncharov lore #andrey daddano #katya goncharov #sofia goncharov #ice pick joe #the crane wives

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