#batman issue 52 i guess
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redraw of a batman comic with our fav babygirl ✨
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I literally can't take it anymore. I need to get this out of my system. This is a hate-rant about why almost every single thing Tom Taylor has written is wrong.
First and foremost is the bimbofication of Dick Grayson. Tom Taylor loves to write him like this idiot who doesn't think at all. Being cheerful does not mean being dumb.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #79
"You seem unusually contemplative"? All Dick does is contemplate!
Nightwing (1996) Issue #3
His mind is always running!
Nightwing (2011) Issue #13
Nightwing (2016) Issue #38
I just picked a random issue from all of these comics and in every single one of these, Dick's planning, thinking, and strategising constantly.
Tom Taylor literally treats him like he's stupid or something.
Also the degradation of his abilities
Nightwing (2016) Issue #79
A vigilante for 20 years. Who has faced assassins, hitmen, psychos, surprise attacks, metas, and you're telling me he didn't know that a untrained kid snuck up and stole from him?
He forgot who he was, he didn't forget where he lived! Even when he was Ric Grayson, Dick had procedural memory. His battle instincts stayed with him.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #52
"Then...I didn't even know what I was doing. I took him down--took him apart in seconds."
This man is a vigilante machine when he was amnesic. Why the heck would Dick ever let his guard down?
His robin reference
Nightwing (2016) Issue #92
Even Bruce in Batman: Hush has said it-Dick was the best. His skills were the best of anyone he's witnessed which is one of the reasons why Bruce let him be Robin in the first place.
This scene is so wrong that there's a robin scene that came out before this in direct opposition of this Tom Taylor Shitshow.
Robin & Batman Issue #1
This was actually pre-robin. Bruce had him do a solo-trial run to see his skill before he made him Robin and this was the result. Compare that to Tom Taylor's scene and the result is humiliating. For Taylor.
Tom Taylor's version of trying to show that Dick loves the people comes off as him hating crime-fighting. RIP the whole Robin firing drama and Nightwing birth i guess.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #79
"We could have avoided all of this if we'd just stayed in and eaten kibble."
Nightwing (1996) Issue #3
Dick would rather die than stop crime-fighting. After Blockbuster's first attempt, his life was hanging on by a thread and he still continued crime fighting.
Nightwing (1996) Issue #91
After Blockbuster blew up his apartment, this is the single-minded determination Dick had to continue crime-fighting. This is him at one of the worst lows of his life but he refused to give up but now? He has everything and Dick wants to ignore the murder of a child to stay inside and eat kibble which - what the heck? I know he's seen as a happy character but him finding dog-food desirable is too far!
Also the idiocy of which Tom Taylor had Barbara calling the cops in Bludhaven for a stolen wallet. Newsflash! This isn't her first rodeo here.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #81
vs
Nightwing (2016) Issue #24
Nightwing (2011) Issue #23
Given how Dick's easily defeated enhanced metas and "very good" fighters, him falling down the stairs is a little to absolutely impossible to believe.
Another thing I love about Dick that Tom Taylor deciminates is his grace. Dick is the most graceful person in DC. His balance easily matches Selina's enhanced cat powers.
But yet. You have.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #83
Nightwing (2011) Issue #23
yeah. okay.
Taylor's motorbike scenes of Dick make me so mad. The boy is a pro at crazy. It's one of his best traits because he does the wildest stunts and he pulls it off.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #93
Nightwing (1996) Issue #86
He lands on his feet. He grabbed a villain mid-air, crashed into a window, and was perfectly fine. Actually no, he's not fine because he's worried about his bike's paint job.
Nightwing (2011) Issue #24
He just sailed over a whole crowd of people and started kicking butt like what he just did wasn't extraordinary - which for him is just another tuesday.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #95
yeah, tell 'er Dick.
He doesn't need someone to hold his bike.
One of the worst things in Taylor's run is how Blockbuster went down. It suddenly reminded me of Selina's stupid ideology which is why I think I got so ticked off.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #96
Blockbusters' thugs loyalty to him isn't a make it or break it deal. He's one of strongest criminal organisations and the knowledge that he owns one of the worst prisons that he could easily put his underlings into would've instilled fear into his thugs, not freedom. Furthermore Blockbuster takes good care of his people that don't piss him off. He teamed up with Nightwing in the scarecrow era in Nightwing (2016) because someone was messing with his people. He's extremely intelligent and superstrong, and he's not just going to be brought down by the knowledge that he owns a prison. It's Bludhaven. If he didn't, then there would be something suspicious given that he runs the city. It's the way Taylor dumbs down Bludhaven's villains that gets to me. Imagine him writing Batman (2016). It's like saying, "yeah the Joker was just a little misguided but he found the right way again after a stern talking to by Batman."
Nightwing is a big name.
When Dick first came to Bludhaven, one of the police officers was like we don't want your crazy here or something. Also Bludhaven loves Nightwing. They want him.
So why is everyone pretending like they don't know who he is?
Nightwing (2016) Issue #90
The police, the citizens, the villains-all of them. Dick fought Brutale and beat the crap out of him way back in 1996 comic. He's a Bludhaven regular. Just because Dick forgot who he was doesn't mean anyone else forgot him. Amnesia doesn't work that way.
Nightwing (2016) Issue #54
A whole team of Nightwings were formed during Dick's amnesic period because of how badly he was needed and missed. It's almost like the Tom Taylor run is set in an alternate universe.
I ran out of image space but what the absolute fiddlesticks is up with Dick being scared to jump. It better be a manipulation tactic but at this point I think Tom Taylor doesn't even know that Dick is manipulative.
#dick grayson#nightwing#barbara gordon#batgirl#blockbuster#ric grayson#bludhaven#tom taylor#when's the next writer coming in
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Yo as the resident Jason Todd fan, maybe you can answer this for me because I haven’t been able to find the answer anywhere else.
At some point in RHATO, Jason gives up his most cherished memory. The one where he’s sick & Bruce stayed home with him.
He was offered it back, and told them to keep it. He refused the offer. I’ve heard that the memory gets mentioned again later but I don’t know if he ever actually really takes it back.
Do you know if he ever gets it back? It’s both sad and not if he doesn’t, because on one hand he’s losing a good memory, but on the other I think it helps cut him off from Batman. Which really might be good for him (looks at all the other comic issues w how Bruce has treated Jason)
Hey, anon. Thanks for the ask! 💙
I’m by no means an expert on the comics, but I did have a bit of a comic-buying hissy fit a bunch of months ago trying to answer this exact question for myself. Here’s what I concluded (complete with pretty pictures because I’m a firm believer in citing your sources):
So in the new 52 rhato #3 (written by Scott Lobdell), Jay, Roy and Kori each give up their most cherished memory to gain entrance to the Chamber of All. The memories are held by Sa’ru (an all powerful being is also apparently a bratty child?).
Sa’ru gives Roy and Kori their memories back when they exit the chamber, but Jay refuses his.
Skip forward a bunch of issues to rhato #19 and Jason actually has Sa’ru take all his memories after a thing with the Joker (that’s a whole different blog post) and he ends up with complete amnesia. The series is being written by James Tynion at this point, not Scott Lobdell.
But Jason eventually gets all of his memories back in rhato #26.
I think you can make a reasonable argument that Tynion intended this to include his most cherished memory, as Jason talks about remembering his finest moments, his lowest moments, etc. Note, the series is still being written by Tynion.
But now skip way way ahead to rhato rebirth #34, and we get this exchange.
So, no, I guess he didn’t get it back? Note, that the series is back to being written by Lobdell at this point.
Honestly, I think this is just another stellar example of dc saying, continuity, consistency? What are these strange and foreign concepts? And thus authors doing whatever they want, to hell with any prior storylines. Tynion was clearing going for an arc where Jason reclaimed his memories. Lobdell had a different idea in mind.
I don’t know that it really matters either way. I mean it’s one memory, right? So even if it’s gone, Jason’s second most cherished memory just moves up into spot numero uno. Based on how much Bruce clearly meant to Jason, and that Bruce was actually a good Dad in most of the comics featuring Robin!Jason, I’m guessing that that memory is of the two of them together, too.
I’d say go with whatever makes you happy and fits your own head canons for Jason. I hate the whole storyline and pretend it doesn’t exist while I stick my tongue out at dc and tell them liberally to fuck right off.
Hopefully that was helpful/informative, or at least worth a merit badge toward my resident Jason Todd fan status (I’m expecting my vest in the mail any day now).
#keen converses#amnesiac jason todd#that think about the most cherished memory#red hood and the outlaws#rhato#rhato rebirth#comics references#jason todd#red hood#bruce wayne#batman
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Mia "Maps" Mizoguchi Reading List
Last Updated: 24/4/2024
A list I have decided to make for the purpose of compiling the various appearances so far of Maps Mizoguchi; since she is a character I like whom has also been receiving some focus as of late. I will also provide some brief description/thoughts for each one.
Gotham Academy (2014-2016) - All Issues
Maps of course first made her original appearance in the first run of Gotham Academy.
Gotham Academy: Endgame (2015) - #1
A one-shot comic which was one of several tie-ins made for the Endgame event which was going on at the time. Basically just shows what Maps and the GA crew were up to while Gotham was being overrun by Joker zombies.
Gotham Academy: Second Semester (2016-2017) - All Issues
The continuation of the Gotham Academy storyline, with of course has Maps in a major role.
Lumberjanes/Gotham Academy (2016-2017)
A crossover between Gotham Academy and the Lumberjanes, which I'm pretty sure is non-canon but still probably worth checking out. I have not read it, nor the Lumberjanes comics yet, although I do intend to do both as some point (due in part to ND Stevenson being one of the authors of Lumberjanes, and me really liking the She-Ra reboot and Nimona)
Poison Ivy: Cycle of Life and Death (2016) - #1
Maps, alongside other Gotham Academy students (including Olive, Kyle, Colton and Pom) have a brief cameo in this first issue of this run. Maps and Olive each get one line each.
Batgirl (2011—2016) - #51, #52, & Annual 4
Maps (along with Olive) also showed up briefly during the Batgirl of Burnside run. My assumption is this is due to them sharing an artist and being published concurrently. I do know what Burnside!Babs isn't everyone's cup of tea so keep that in mind, I suppose.
My Video Game Ate my Homework (2020) - #1
Maps and Olive show up behind the main characters in the first page as a cameo... and that's about it. The comic seems fun though, for the record. Mostly including this because I'm just going through the list of Maps' appearances on the DC wiki.
Batman: Black and White (2021) - #4
One of the stories in this issue has Maps appear as Robin. Non-canon but still a very neat and fun appearance by her.
Batman (2016-) - #119, #120, #121
Probably Maps' first major appearance since the end of the Gotham Academy: Second Semester. These give some additional exploration of her home life and relationship with her parents. Has her dressing up as Robin to investigation the disappearance of another student.
Batgirls (2022-2023) - #11
Maps shows up here and has an adventure with Cass. This also means that Maps knows Babs, Cass and Steph. Which is neat. I do know that the portrayal of the Batgirls in Batgirls isn't everyone's cup of tea (namely portraying them as younger / less mature than they have been in the past) so that that's worth keeping in mind. Interestly, Maps' big brother Kyle has a larger role; appearing in #10, #11, #17, #18, #19 and the Annual as a possible love interest for Steph.
DC's Saved by the Belle Reve (2022) - #1
A one-shot with several stories, including one which returns to the Gotham Academy crew and gives some information on what's happened since the end of Gotham Academy: Second Semester, along with a fun adventure.
Gotham Academy: Maps of Mystery (2023) - #1
A one-shot which acts a compilation of Batman (2016-) - #119, #120, #121, as well as Maps appearances in Batman: Black and White, and DC's Saved by the Belle Reve.
Birds of Prey (2023-) - All Issues
The newest Birds of Prey run has a surprise appearance by Maps. Which I think is a neat sign of her receiving some increased focus as of late. To get into some mild-ish spoilers... the Maps who appears is a Maps from the future. I have made a few posts/reviews of this run, which you can find on this blog, and I guess personally I am not the biggest fan of her portrayal in this comic. Still is neat to see her receive more focus. Do kinda also think it could've been neat if Present!Maps had shown up instead of Future!Maps.
Batman: The Brave and the Bold (2023-) - #10, #11, #12
Gotham Academy returns! As does Present!Maps. A fun ongoing story of Maps getting to team up with Batman once more.
#comic reading list#spoilers#dc comics#maps mizoguchi#mia mizoguchi#gotham academy#gotham academy: second semester#Batman: The Brave and the Bold 2023#Gotham Academy: Maps of Mystery#Batgirls#Batgirl#Lumberjanes/Gotham Academy
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speaking of the upcoming red hood: the hill miniseries...
if you've been here for a while, you know i've been begging and asking for shawn martinbrough's red hood to come back for a... while. longer that i've been on here actually. i am, naturally, a huge fan of dana & denise, and a proponent of jason reconnecting with his community. but i also wanted to talk about a couple of my worries, because rh 51 & 52 was a bit loose at the seams in some matters. i've been obviously worried about the blatant gentrification that seems to be praised within the narrative, though the summaries for the hill alleviated these worries by actually calling it such (and if you call gentrification by its name, you're probably aware that something is wrong with it...). there's also a detail (that was actually pointed out to me by noa. because i missed it somehow) of dana claiming she got a training, presumably a league one...? which would definitely take away from the grounding reality of gotham streets. finally, i have some general issues with jason's characterisation, as there was very little development leading to it... (however i guess the writers cannot help it, because nowadays the next guy taking over the title will just retract any progress to fit their own idea of "reinventing" the title and perhaps it's better just to make a dive) and it seems to disregard his youth (i'm too lazy to get into what specifically makes him seem so... old. but the art does not help the case). also as i said many times before, i'm not the fan of the crowbars. it's just silly.
just wanted to put it out there but do i remain hopeful. and i'm rarely hopeful. it might just be the best thing for jay's character in a long while. or it mind be just a disappointment. anyway, it does make me nervous.
oh, and read batman: the hill (2000). i'm a bit ambivalent on it but i'm assuming most readers will enjoy going into rh: the hill with additional background.
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Hi! Sorry if this is a bit out of topic, but what comics would you recommend to someone who hasn't read any, but has a general understanding of the most popular characters and a few niche ones?
Not the current X-Men run for sure, because that is... a lot... but I do think New X-Men (2004) fits pretty well into what the public consciousness of the X-Men is. It's the X-Men as teachers in a school without the later drama of the Schism.
Personally I prefer my Avengers teams to have a mix of popular and niche members and a Hank Pym to cause science problems but current Avengers is all MCU heroes so it should be easy to get into. I do recommend the Busiek run... and 1985 West Coast Avengers is very weird but I think generally understandable.
Like... most Fantastic Four comics should be easy enough to understand. I think they're pretty good for starting out.
I will leave followers to declare the best Spider-Man run because I know less about the Spooders Man and only sometimes read.
Ms. Marvel (Kamala) and Unbeatable Squirrel Girl also for Marvel.
DC... I am loathe to recommend Geoff Johns Green Lantern (the 2005 run) but it probably is the most important modern one, I also enjoy Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps, and Green Lanterns (2016) was relatively new reader friendly.
I do recommend the 2016 Batman run as long as you start with Tynion, I think the issue numbers will show up if you search the name Tynion on this blog, I may also need to defer to followers on Batman because I am less into it than GLs.
I am trying to think if I can actually get away with recommending Infinity Inc. 1984 again but possibly JSA (1999) is the bigger JSA lore book, I need more people to read the old men and their stupid children.
Also 2011 Aquaman... maybe?
I guess I should also say followers leave suggestions in the replies of this post because my comics reading is frequently like... Metal Men, incredibly niche...
Oh also 52 (2007) is a very important series if you want to get to know the DCU outside the Trinity
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How I Came to Appreciate Batgirl: Redemption Road More...
Once upon a time, I wasn't really fond of this story. I hated and loathed it. Since 2020 however, I gained a greater appreciation for the mini-series. Now it isn't on the top tier of Cassandra Cain stories, but I don't see it lower tier list anymore.
Why?
Well, I'm going to tell you, and maybe you'll appreciate this story too.
I fully confess this story more as a "Schrödinger's Cassandra Cain" story. There is a lot of bad in it, and yet there is a lot of good in it. First off, the one element I do enjoy is the art by Jim Calafiore.
There's a grit Calafiore brings to this story. It helps balance the good and the bad. The good is that he draws a very scary Cass. That and I do enjoy the opening homage to a certain two-clawed Wolverine in the opening spread:
Now for the very title of the series, you can interpret "redemption road" as two-fold: in writer Adam Beechen redeeming not only Cassandra in the eyes of the Bat-Family but redeeming himself with readers for well turning her heel back in Robin #150 and "Titans East" (Teen Titans #42-47). Cause let's face it-- it was not a good story by any means and did neither Cass or Beechen any further favors (but I digress, Geoff Johns, plotted that all out and there are "reasons" for Slade getting away free).
You have those factors and this little tale. So at Wizardworld Chicago 2008 I attended a panel where the infamous Dan DiDio revealed that Beechen bugged him for pitches and the one of approved was this mini.
He also revealed Beechen was the only one pitching stories on Cass (which was a half-lie, if you've seen my "Lost Tales of Cass" post, you know Chuck Dixon had a fill-in issue of Detective Comics ready to go telling how Cass/Bruce mended).
Course, by this time period Dixon was exiting Robin and Batman & the Outsiders so, yeah it was a "half-truth".
That made me angry back then, but now I see the why, and I'm okay with it. In his original ways of writing Cass, Beechen's attempts were-- not good. This was his chance to show readers he had really looked into the character's history and fix these issues that he himself put in.
Think about it we came from this in Robin #152:
To this. Beechen calling out the grand problem within the Bat-books (even now it seems). Cass is important in the Bat-Family, SO TREAT HER AS SUCH. Which he does by having Alfred (of course) pointing these things out.
But Alfred isn't the only one being meta in this story. I didn't even realize it, until 2020, but there is one other character playing a meta part in this comic, Nightwing.
If there's one HUGE gripe with this particular volume it is the relationship of Cass/Dick in it. We went to them being brother/sister.. to well. We have Dick literally acting like a dick to her.
Then it hit me.
Who was writing Nightwing at the time period? Peter Tomasi. Who treated the character of Cassandra like what Alfred says? Then suddenly Dick's characterization here began making sense much more sense (when you have this going right after this series as if that writer was flipping off Beechen) in Tomasi's final page of Nightwing:
Cass was supposedly living in the Manor at this time (per this story). Funny how she was "forgotten" in Nightwing. I guess Tomasi was REALLY spiteful because he revisited this subplot during the New 52 Batman & Robin too with Bruce even twisting the knife further:
Though for Beechen's purposes he revisits on WHY Cassandra should be a key member of the Bat-Family. Not only that, but Cass goes thru a journey that explores the limits of the Bat-Family's underlying culture of vengeance. And she reaches a natural conclusion to this (more on that later).
So let's get to the real bad. No not the 90s designed goons of David Cain or Deathstroke. No not the David Cain characterization. I'm talking about #1's wall of text that would make even Brian Michael Bendis blush.
This is only one page of it in the issue. We got TWO.
Until this issue, we never really got a "defined" timeline of Cass's EVIL period. We just figured OYL, Supergirl #14, Robin #161-162, and Titans East was how it happened. Turns out we were WRONG. Did we really need to see these pages of text? Not really.
In all honesty, I think a simpler solution would have been just tiny panels of Cass seeing the various people she killed when drugged up. At the very least, it would put faces on those Cass was forced to do. You could feel her rage on why she's hunting Slade/David Cain then.
Plus it feels like we're missing something as Tim was basically like Dick in Titans East. But now he's changed. Why? There could have been panels of Tim showing care for Cass in this. Instead, he just feels muted throughout this mini.
The first issue ends with Cass confronting another mystery lady murdering some of Slade/David Cain's assassins. And again, a problem I have with this mini.
These "children of Cain" feel so nameless save for Marque, who is the opposite of Cass. She embraces the violence that she was taught and is David Cain's own Frankenstein Monster. Throughout the mini she just comes off as superfluous and edgy. Really edgy...
I really think Beechen missed a prime chance here in having Cass trying to save someone like herself. Someone unlike Cass, didn't realize life as much as she did. That finally, Cain cracked the code (with help from the Slade juice). And Cass could try to redeem her.
So this whole theme of redemption could be all over the place then. Marque throughout this just feels, meh. Speaking of meh say hello to meaningless male love interest #3 for Cass.
This subplot just feels pretty meh. I get the why Beechen tried it. The writer from Batman: City of Light attempted this. Dylan Horrocks with Black Wind during his run on Vol. 1, and Andersen Gabrych attempted this in his run with Zero (and let's face it we only remember his name because he died).
The whole love subplot just feels so unnecessary here. Again we could have more stuff with Tim helping her. Something. Instead, we get someone we care little about. Because A.) we've seen it before and are so over it.
B.) Compare it with Shadow of the Batgirl which did this right. It balanced everything by showing Cass being the focus here (you know the actual main character), and less on the intended male love interest (until later when she gets to know him, Erik, more as the reader does too)
Which leads to this positive in #2. In one page we are given Babs realizing what Cass has been up too and is all for her going on this quest (probably knowing where this will end). Which is again, a good contrast to where Babs and Cass are here. Babs knows Cass needs this.
Bruce doesn't. Dick SOOOOO doesn't. But Babs fully understands. And I do love me some Babs being a good mentor.
Another positive in this issue does is laying the groundwork on how David Cain/Deathstroke forged this partnership when Cass/Marque visit a former colleague of both men.
That these two knowing one another was hinted at in Batgirl Vol. 1 by Kelley Puckett himself when Cain told Bruce in #5 of a job that was beneath him, Slade, and Lawton's talents. So in that regard, that's a nice callback.
Speaking of callbacks, you can't have Cass hunting Slade and not have run into Ravager (who was also actively hunting her father too during this time period of DC). And here the two's interaction is hit or miss.
Rose equally has a grudge against Slade for pulling the same stuff that he did to Cass. So they can easily relate to the other. Also, you have a built-in Rose going to more extremes than Cass (thanks to Sean McKeever's underrated Teen Titans run character arc involving her).
This is why Marque again comes off as the third wheel in all of this. If you're reading DC Comics at the time (or even now). You want the Cass/Rose interactions here. You don't care about the gritty edgy third person who's ruining the antics between the other two.
Like literally, the tension between Cass/Rose should be all that you need. There's history between them both. There are similar goals each wants. But it comes off as meh throughout this due to Marque. I mean look at this panel below and tell me who sticks out as the sore thumb?
Cause then you have panel later on in the book that makes you want to fist pump with these two now that are Marqueless. Who doesn't want to read THAT?!
Look, the idea of Marque is intriguing but there should have been a clear subject spawned from Deathstroke/David Cain's alliance. An assassin. A roadblock. A hurdle. Not nameless ninja assassins with badly designed outfits.
If this was just Marque fighting Rose/Cass then at least the fight could have meant more meaning. A face to go along with someone who's being down there as Rose/Cass got away from their murderdads.
Because there's no weight to any of these fights which should have more impact. Instead, they come off as weightless. And more blood spilled by Marque because the EDGE MUST FLOW!
But if #3 has another problem is Dick really being a bastard. Seriously, WHAT THE HELL DICK?! But then again, I get it now on why Dick is acting as such. Just that this bad characterization does come at the expense of Nightwing. Like WOW.
So here I am bashing the heck out of this third issue, with very little good finding in it. Well, there is one other additional good. That's the opening page/panel when Cass is out (due to Rose from last issue).
Where does this love of Cass/Shiva together come from? This comic! Beechen of all writers laid the seed that Bryan Edward Hill in Batman & the Outsiders and Michael Conrad & Becky Cloonan on Batgirls would use. The hidden desire Cass has: she wants Shiva to be a mother to her. Yes, Barbara is a good mother too (and dammit where is she in this panel above?!)
Regardless, Beechen does understand a want Cass has that James Tynion opened (and failed at) while Hill fleshed out WAAAAAAY more. So much more that now this has to be the standard of their relationship now. Literally, this is just gold between the two of them now.
But if you want to know where this hunger for Cass/Shiva to have an actual daughter/mother relationship came? You can thank Adam Beechen for that!
#4 finally has the long-awaited fight between Cass and Slade with it well being quite lackluster thanks in due part to Marque and the nameless daughters of Cain.
But I do confess there are a few dialogue pieces in #4 I do enjoy. Like Slade twisting the mental knife to get the better of Cass here.
We get no cathartic scenes for either Rose or Cass here (everyone seems to get robbed of having them with Slade at this time period in DC). Just a rushed end to a rushed subplot.
Again, this could have been the point where Cass was reaching to Marque and that could have been the point for Slade to decide, "WHELP TIME TO EXPLODE AND RUN!" Setting up the next issue. Instead, these nameless kids all die and we the reader feel nothing for them.
When in fact we should feel more. But so it is comics and we get the abrupt ending of the Cass/Rose union. Because this is all we get of Slade and her after this issue. Which is a pity.
Again given how both have similarities with horrible fathers. There should be much pathos here between Cass/Rose. How Cass sees going down this path of vengeance can poison you still (as it is doing to Rose). With Marque being.. ugh.
If that wasn't enough we get again nameless male love interest and ugh. Yeah, I'm just not gonna post more of that. Other than Cass realizes just who Slade and her pop would target to announce their alliance but also hurt the heroes: Oracle.
Which makes complete sense. I just wish the comic did a better job with it like Bruce Wayne: Murderer did only now David Cain this time going after Barbara (as he went after Bruce in that event story). There's a lot of things this comic could have done better at.
#5 opens with Dick, Bruce, and Tim fighting Cass due to the former ratting out her plans to kill David Cain to the latter two. Still, it is kind of cathartic Dick getting punted.
...
I hate myself for enjoying that.
If you're expecting any sort of closure between Dick/Cass here you aren't going to get any in this series. Dick continues to be a dick to Cassandra in Frank Tieri's fill-in arc of Batman & the Outsiders #13-14. After that, Dick FINALLY stops acting so OOC.
Here we go back into the positives of this series. I do enjoy Cass scoping the eventual scene of the crime out. She looks at the evidence she's got and with her skills predicts how and where her father will try to take the shot at Babs.
These pages come to show that Cass indeed can be a fine detective on her own right (thanks to Babs, Bruce, and Tim teaching her). Knowing how and when the crime could occur before it even does with what she knows.
And so we get probably the second-best part of this series. These next two pages.
I mean it's not Damion Scott, but Calafiore does have the nice little details here and there. Also nice of Beechen to use TWO homages of Cass here. From this set-up shot from Vol. 1 from above too…
To Cain about to strike a Gordon down and once again, his daughter stops him from taking the killshot. There's a bit of poetry there.
So in some callbacks, the creative team does nail them. I have to confess other than Marque, #5 is probably the portion of the story where it actually gets good. Even if it does come at the small price of David Cain's characterization.
Look, yes David Cain is a monster, but there's a difference between monsters who aren't portrayed as human and the ones who are. Cain had a perfect balance of this in Vol. 1 The stuff in this volume (and until again Shadow of the Batgirl) David just is a complete monster.
In that regard, the pathos of the villain just feels more hollow. If save Slade talked to him while in prison. Told him he could perfect and deliver that perfect child soldier. Bring a reason for his life again. I'd buy that more than what we got here in Vol. 2.
Why going into the final issue why I go into that mindset. It helps the reasons flow better for the character then what we actually got. And the ultimate fight between the two is handled well.
I also love that both Babs/Bruce are doing crowd control here (both at this point knowing this is something Cass NEEDS). I love that Charlie sees what is going on and her first instinct is to help Cass.
It's a pity we never got more interactions between Charlie/Cass. If only there were some subplots that could have been dropped so we could have got that.
While we don't get the cathartic stuff with Slade we do get it with Cass going up against her father. Just unloading the life he never gave her with a fury.
It's an almost Return of the Jedi moment of Vader/Luke's final duel with Cass just unleashing it all on her own father who cannot defend himself against the rage of his child. And much like Vader/Luke there's that moment when the later realized what will happen if he continues.
Like Luke, Cass has that realization too. That if she has her vengeance what will it solve? All this pain. All this suffering that's she has dealt with these last few months. Will killing him solve it? Of course, we know the answer cause it's Cass.
No. Being a killer is not who she is. She is a hero. So she attempts to save her father, but well as we find out this is where Bruce and Tim were hiding. Waiting and watching to see if Cass would come to this realization.
And we come to the best moment of this comic where Bruce puts his batdad side full-on. I love that the focus is on Cass here. Hearing what Bruce is saying and you just see the raw emotion of her just cracking up wanting this so bad until...
The hug from her true dad with a proud brother looking on. If only you know a stupid tie-in didn't have to ruin the good moment making any readers go, "What the hell is R.I.P.?!"
Like seriously, I'm surprised no one has photoshopped that R.I.P. out of the panel. If you take it out. Damn does this work more. But by putting it in there. "Oh yeah, Bruce is about to die. ...." And that emotion just leaves you to do this.
So if any of you great Photoshoppers out there can take that R.I.P. out? That'd be just great.
So Batgirl vol. 2 looking under this lens isn't the worst Cass story, nor does have enough good to be amazing to recommend. It's just there with both good and bad. It's average.
Hence it is Schrödinger's Cass. It is exactly this. But it was worth talking about. Because it is a period of Cass that should be talked of more. Because it does redeem Adam Beechen with the character.
Along with redeeming Cass with the Bat-Family. It's just a pity only Frank Tieri decided to follow on this and NO OTHER WRITER. Sadly not soon after we'd be getting the teases that Babs would be back as Batgirl from the Blackest Night mini caps at the end of BoP and Nightwing.
For certain folk at DC already made up their mind with the character, and she wouldn't be Batgirl or apart of the Bat-Family that much longer. I guess they assumed this Volume would be considered a "gift". That Cass got closure... Ugh.
If you want to know more about DC meddling. Then see here when I go more into detail on that.
That said, Batgirl Vol. 2 gets a lot of bad rap, but it isn't all bad. It's highly flawed, but there is some good in it. … And here's me going all RoTJ fully with it. 😋
With that, I'm gonna call it a night. Because tomorrow there are things I hope for tomorrow. REALLY AMAZING THINGS for us Cass fans tomorrow at long last.
But not freaking Batman/Catwoman: Gotham War. That can go to hell...
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The joker has many names in many stories, but how did you (in your opinion or point of view) reveal the "true" origin of the villain and I loved it and I want you to do the same with the "true" name of the joker, please 🙏
Thank you, glad you had fun with my previous Joker-related meta! Oof, Joker's "true" name... That's a very thorny issue.
First of all, there's a canon name for Prime Earth Joker right now, and a canon origin. You guessed it, it's The Killing Joke one. This wasn't really surprising to me when it came out, the TKJ origin has been referenced as canon multiple times at this point; it's only the last name that remained a mystery. But then they revealed his name to be "Jack Oswald White":
Flashpoint Beyond #5
I'm pretty sure we all agree that the only good part of that is "Jack". Don't know why the hell they went for "Oswald" (let Penguin have the monopoly on that goddammit!), but "White" is not that much of a surprise, it's just... a bit boring. Basically, Joker's had "White" attributed to him before in the Arkham games, he used it as an alias.
The fan-favorite (and my own, actually) name for Joker is actually "Jack Napier". It's got a long history... First used in Tim Burton's Batman (1989), it then got adopted by Batman: The Animated Series, The Batman (2004) and multiple other adaptations, like the Black Label Batman: White Knight comic-- which is just the most famous recently, but Joker's been named "Jack Napier" in so many other Elseworld and alternate universe DC comics. However, the name has popped up in comics closer to main continuity too. Joker himself used it as an alias in the New 52, in Red Hood and the Outsiders; but more importantly...
Arkham Asylum: Madness
Tough to say how canon this comic is, but it's heavily implied Joker's surname is "Napier". And since it's been canonized Joker's kid would've been a boy, "Milton" was probably his name (if you follow Falls the Shadow, my Joker-centric fic, you're probably familiar). But most recently, and having the most weight, they showed that the Joker equivalent of one of the Dark Multiverses was named "Jack Napier":
Tales of the Dark Multiverse -- Batman: Hush
So... it's a bit of a mess. It's been made official that his name was "Jack Oswald White" (maybe they want to do something with the initials JOW??), but the name people have been using for him for years is "Jack Napier". More generally though, you'll find that even comics that never give him a last name use "Jack" (like Batman: Gotham Knights #54, or Batman: Three Jokers, or the name of Jokester, the good Joker of Earth-3).
...And alright, I can't help myself. I'll go ahead and rant about a pet theory of mine, since I think Zdarsky intentionally tried to fit this all into an explanation. He tried to do something about Joker being people with different names and even different genders (like Martha Wayne) across worlds. But everything from here on is a spoiler for the main Batman run, so I'll put it all under the cut.
In case you're not familiar with the plot of The Bat-Man of Gotham, basically Bruce got thrown into another Universe in which Batman didn't exist. Here he found a guy called Darwin Halliday or Red Mask, who never became Joker, but wanted to. He'd glimpsed into the Multiverse with a chemical, and as a result created a machine that allowed one to travel the numerous Universes. In their final confrontation, Bruce and Red Mask both get hurled across the Multiverse by the machine, and here's an interesting panel from a world (clearly Burton's Batman movie world) Bruce encounters:
Batman (2016) #135
They have Bruce see his name, and the name "Jack Napier" on panel. Meanwhile, the "sane" Joker Bruce is chasing is named "Darwin Halliday". Then there's freaking "Jack Oswald White" for Prime Earth, an existing alternate called "Jack Napier" in a Dark Multiverse, and don't even get me started on freaking "Alby", another potential Joker name from Detective Comics (2016) #1000.
Bruce however, in Zdarsky's story and not only, only has himself. All the Universes he hops through have "Bruce Wayne" as the connection, even when Bruce isn't Batman (like in Batman Beyond). Is Bruce the only one to be Batman? Of course not, different others have carried the mantle (like Dick Grayson, Jean-Paul Valley, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, James Gordon etc.). But I'm not trying to refer to worlds in which Bruce Wayne was Batman and then something happened to him and he was succeeded/replaced; I'm trying to refer to worlds in which someone else became Batman from the start. Those are quite rare, but they almost always have a Wayne: Thomas Wayne, or Helena Wayne. Even Owlman, the "evil" counterpart, is Bruce's brother.
Of course, the connection linking the Bruce Waynes is meant to be there so that the "infection" of Zur-en-Arrh can take place across the Multiverse. But then how exactly is Red Mask finding each Universe to jump into, right? How is he connecting mentally to all the Jokers, if the Jokers are different people and not the same as for Bruce? Why is it that whenever a Wayne becomes a Batman, someone becomes a Joker? Well...
Batman (2016) #135
So. Red Mask was following Batman, the one who's existence directly lead to Jack going insane and becoming Joker. Wherever there was a Batman, Red Mask precipitated the creation of a Joker... who wasn't always the same person. Just the person who needed a "push" into becoming it, hence explaining why Joker is different individuals. "Joker" is pretty much the cosmic curse following Batman, his inevitable shadow. (Not only that, depending on the moment Red Mask arrived, he also brought back the existing Jokers from the dead or made them worse.)
Now. Do I like this explanation? Not really, I think it sucks to unravel Joker's character so much and take away all his mystery, all the cool alternate interpretations. Not only that, but this explanation essentially takes away agency from Joker's character and attributes it to freaking... Multiverse shenanigans. However, I did appreciate Zdarsky's effort to give the whole thing some meaning. You don't see that frequently in comics. And in a way, it's so insanely soulmates-as-a-curse for Batman and Joker. They're so tied together it's impossible to unravel them.
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And to sum up the DC Real Santa read: there is a LOT of Santa lore, and most of it gets contradicted regularly.
If you want pointers for a couple of the best DC Santa stories over the years, here’s my summary:
Golden Age Award: Action Comics #105. While I do enjoy the original Superman’s Christmas Adventure, the Action Comics story is just a better, more coherent plot, PLUS it contains ridiculous weight loss methods for Santa.
Silver Age Award: endless Rudolph reprints. For some reason DC really didn’t do much with Christmas during the Silver Age. I’m going to nominate Batman #239 as the Santa story that still sneaks into the Silver Age.
Bronze Age Award: this had a bunch of serious competitors, but probably the best go-to Santa story in this period is The House of Mystery in DC Special Series #21. However I also fully enjoyed The Sandman: The Seal Men’s War on Santa Claus from The Best of DC #22, for the Seal Men’s righteous frustration at Santa giving them inappropriate presents.
1980s award: Twas the Fright Before Christmas! in Christmas with the Super-Heroes #1 is probably the pick of the classic Santa appearances, but if you want to sit down with a single 1980s issue to read, get Christmas with the Super-Heroes #2 instead and just enjoy some really contemplative stories. DC hit it out of the park with this issue, there isn’t a dud in it.
1990s award: It’s the Holiday Bash era! All three issues are great, but Holiday Bash III is my pick of the bunch, and it contains the overall best Santa story, which is No Bart, There is No Santa Claus. Honourable mention to Present Tense in Holiday Bash II though, for the Darkseid’s Christmas coal delivery we all love.
2000s award: After a lot of thought, I actually have to give this to The Spectre #11-12. It’s contemplative, it does interesting things with DC lore and Santa lore, and it’s a really well told story. My runner up is probably Young Justice #40. My Christmas anthology pick is DC Universe Holiday Special #1 (2008) and it’s for the balance of characters I like, optimistic and loving stories, and gorgeous art.
New 52 award: just go read Li’l Gotham #2 and #12 for their Christmas issues. I promise nothing else is worth it.
Rebirth award: The Night We Saved Christmas in DC Rebirth Holiday Special #1. It’s Detective Chimp, it has a really fun Santa characterisation, and it’s just a rollicking yarn. However for anthology issue, I actually have to give the edge to DC's Nuclear Winter Special #1 (2017), though 2016's is also very good. Nuclear Winter just has a more coherent theme.
Infinite Frontier award: I think I’m going to give this to The Santa Copies in DC's 'Twas the Mite Before Christmas #1 (2023). There honestly wasn’t the best selection through here, but Rip and Booster having a family Christmas adventure together is always going to make me feel soft. In terms of collection - look they’re all ‘fine I guess’ really? If you’re going to read a single anthology, i guess my pick is DC's Grifter Got Run Over by a Reindeer #1 (2022) for the best mix of stories.
Thanks everyone for following along my mega posting. Next year I might actually read all the Rudolph stories (this is a lie).
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What did The Flying Graysons look like?
I've wanted to post about what John and Mary Grayson looked like for a while. There are a lot of material to look through, even when I've kept to the world of comics (not connected to animated shows), but here we are with an overview. I had to collect the panels on picture sheets; it will mean low picture quality, but at least you can see where to find them.
John and Mary pop up in many flashbacks, but they never get enough attention to cement their appearance. Everyone knows Martha Wayne wore a string of (evidently fake, since there are no knots) pearls when she was killed, right? But what Dick's parents' outfits when they were killed looked like is impossible to say. (To be fair, they are almost always drawn with dark hair.)
John and Mary only existed as pretty small figures in three panels before Dick became Robin in Detective Comics # 38. John wears a red top and blue shorts, Mary a green bra and shorts (and you have to be male to think that would work...). The next time I can remember The Flying Graysons (TFG for short) on panel is Batman # 32, where Mary wears a red bra/shorts and Dick and John black and red shorts.
It goes without saying that TFG’s costumes will eventually be modelled from Dick's Robin and Nightwing suits – not the other way around. Hence, they sometimes perform in red, green and/or yellow, and sometimes in blue. But that will take several decades – until then, their outfits are drawn in varying colours.
The idea that Robin's red, green and yellow came from The Flying Graysons was introduced in the storyline Batman Year Three (Batman vol 1 # 436–439, 1989). (Bruce made the suit.) In 2005, Nightwing Year One, a storyline in Nightwing vol 2 # 101–106 that contains hardly anything of value, if you ask me, retconned the original Nightwing suit to be inspired by one of John’s circus suits.
The New 52 (2011–2016) pretty exclusively pushed the idea that the Graysons performed in Nightwing-like suits. Maybe because Dick hardly had time to be Robin in that continuity?
While in Rebirth (from 2016), the Graysons have been shown as ardent clothes-changers. They've been performing in red/green/yellow, blue with Nightwing-like colour blocking, all red, and in green suits with a yellow G. The latter design comes from the separate continuity in All Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder (ASBAR, an out-of-continuity book that you might as well ignore if you ask me) and why it has been incorporated into the main continuity is anybody's guess. I have considered whether it was a clever hint to the reader that Dick's memories were false, but the acrobat family have been drawn in ASBAR costumes even when it has been clear it's not false memories.
The latest appearance I can think of was in Nightwing vol 4 # 82. John and Mary perform in red and green suits with a yellow G before they're together; years later, with Dick, they wear red outfits and green bracelets. (Though a couple of issues earlier, we see a poster of them in slightly different costumes – presumably imitating the look from Year One / Robin Annual # 4).
I had intended to stick to comics... But creators of canon pick and choose inspiration, just as fanfiction writers do... In Batman The Animated Series "Robin's Reckoning" (1993), the Graysons' suits have a yellow pattern on the chest. Something similar turns up in several later comics. Robin Annual # 4, Birds of Prey # 8, Batman: The Dark Knight vol 2 # 9, to name a few.
Footnote.
You've noticed by now that this post is about clothes. But there's also a lack of consistency regarding the Graysons’ background/ethnicity.
In Batman Year Three, Mary tells Dick her grandfather ran away to the circus when he was nine, so she never had a home of her own (Batman vol 1 # 436). Then he was retconned as having a Romani parent (to the best of my knowledge, it was first mentioned in 2000). The one comic arc where that is essential to the story is quite problematic; you get the impression that the writer (Devin Grayson) did it... to be able to exoticise Dick and have Bruce talk like a racist...?
(There is also Booster Gold vol 2 # 25 (2009), where the time-traveling Booster Gold lets Dick/Batman go back 15 years in time to see himself and his parents. In a house. Surrounded by snow. Which is, by the way, contrary to what Dick said in an issue of Nightwing vol 2 # 54, that his family always stayed in Florida in the winter.)
The New 52 Court of Owls storyline (2011-2012) gave Dick a great paternal grandmother from the Gotham elite (Amelia Crowne), and great grandfather William Cobb seems to have an average, working-class (probably British, if you go by his surname) background. Consequently, Dick's mom ought to be the Romani parent (ignoring that one or both parents could have a mixed ethnic background, which is pretty normal if your family has lived in the USA for some generations). But in "Grayson # 1", Dick's dad is called John "Giovanni" Grayson; to my knowledge, that's the only story where John has been called Giovanni, and I'm not sure if the writers (King and Seeley) intended to imply that he was Romani?
However, in Nightwing vol 4 # 8, Mary Lloyd, Dick's mother, seems to be Romani (at least partly growing up in France). She talks about "her people" to John. (Lloyd is a Welsh surname, by the way.) Mary is portrayed as kind of a wild kid who steals, albeit with good intentions, which seems to feed into stereotypes once more...
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I think coming back to comics the way I did really affected how I read them--in short, I started reading DC around the end of No Man's Land (or at least I was seeing NML books in the store, I was a very wee thing and so my memory is super fuzzy about that time), though it took me awhile to really acclimate, but I was a fairly faithful reader until Flashpoint/New 52, which at the time I loathed so much that I swore off DC comics for 10+ years (I was so, so into Dick & Damian as Batman & Robin, you don't know how eagerly I looked forward to every issue! I was so devastated to lose that!), but then Nightwing (2016) #100 happened to cross my path and I saw Dick tackle-hug Bruce and call him "dad" to his face and, oh, well, shit, here I am again, I guess, as if my vendetta against DC never happened--because I have a solid foundation of preboot understanding of the characters, I have a solid foundation of understanding the origin of Nu52 as a continuity-wide reboot, but since I was gone, Convergence happened, Rebirth happened, whatever Dawn of DC is, and I'm not reading in any particular order.
So, I'm reading preboot comics, I'm reading Dawn of DC comics, I'm reading Nu52 comics, I'm reading Rebirth comics, and I generally know what goes into what era, but because I have to do the mental math each time, it's given me this sense of... ephemeralness, I guess. No one story or continuity is the only one I have to choose from. No one story or continuity is the only one that will ever exist. Sure, previous to this spate of reboots and reboot-lites, retcons happened all the time. And it's not like those stories never happened within the larger meta context of the narrative, a lot of them have come back into continuity.
But it lends a sense of the stories being ephemeral, I read them and enjoy them or don't, I take each story as a thing unto itself and maybe some cool over-arching themes, but let go of the idea that each comic has to be a puzzle piece that fits together with the others. Each comic run stands on its own, I enjoy it or I don't, and anything else is a bonus.
So, I read something that might have pissed me off if I were coming at this from a different angle, but instead I end up thinking, "Oh, that had some neat ideas in it!", I don't care about the dumb bullshit in it, because, eh, I've already forgotten about it, it's ephemeral, it's already gone from my mind. Too many reboots/reboot-lites in such a short period of time for any one thing to matter. There is no solid ground beneath me and I have learned to enjoy that for what it is.
And, I have to say, as funny as it is to be like "nobody hates comics like comics fans hate comics", it's actually a lot more fun to just not care about the bad and enjoy a story for whatever it is and let the rest fall away. I'm going to hold onto that feeling as long as I can! Because, for the first time in probably like 20 years, I'm eagerly picking up new comics and enjoying a lot of them, instead of just the one or two authors I previously deigned to like. 😂
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Why i think it is kinda frustrating to love the character of Jason Todd (or just any dc comics character at this point) - coming from a fan
VERY IMPORTANT WARNING: because i like Jason Todd this is gonna be mainly about him. I am gonna discuss certain things in canon and fanon about him that at this point are so tiring, and i just want to rant about them. Also, opinions that you might or might not agree with (lol). So, here comes my rant:
The Mess that is Canon and why it gives me headaches
So, we all know our dearest DC comics, and what a pain they can be. They love being inconsistent, because writers love to write wtv they want while ignoring stuff that came before, change or outright erase characters over night just because "they have their own vision in mind", ruining characters by practicing sexism, racism, classism, all -ism there are, on those characters and through other characters - because why not? And so, most of the times when a character goes to one writer to another it feels like some really do decide to keep their worse traits and add to them and ignore the actual interesting things about that/those character(s) that could make for some more interesting stories and character development. (And i know that most of the inconsistency is not just the fault, or even at all, of the writers, because that is more an issue caused by higher-ups and the decisions and limitations they put on their writers. But, that doesn't mean that writers cannot do better in the writing department, like plenty of writers and creatives have consistently done amazing things even under limitations, actually limitations sometimes showed to be helpful in challenging the creativity of artists,,... thou, i still think that DC needs to give their writers a basic sheet with info on the characters and make their current writers read/get familiar with previous characterization of the characters, at least a bit because this inconsistency is so annoying... also, you guys are supposed to be professionals in writing, like??)
Now let's see what certain writers decided to do with Jason, as an example, i guess, also because i know the most about him. Sorry for still being behind on other characters, aaaaa. So bare with me, please...
Decided to guide him to his death instead of continuing to expand on how Jay could heal from his childhood trauma, deal with his emotions and grow into being a better person and hero:
Jim Starlin (one of the writers of Batman comics in Post-crisis) decided to take the sweet boy that loves his family, that has anger issues from his past trauma, but that still did his best to help people and has very resourceful, and decided to completely focus on just how angry he was and the "tragic destiny that always awaited for him", especially because he also somehow deserves it -> which is, unfortunately, something that is made even worse in the New-52 and Rebirth. There is just this over insistence that because Jason was angry in certain situations, that he is and always was "broken" or "improper", and stuck on a never-ending cycle of violence. And in recent comics, every time young Jason Todd is brought up (in discussions, flashbacks and stories happening in his time as Robin) more often than not, the writers decide to put too much focus on Jason's more negative traits related to his anger and arrogance (about this last one, i, personally, don't think he was originally. Like yes, he could be too reckless sometimes and disobey orders from Batman and stuff, but which Robin didn't... also Jason was actually pretty well behaved for the most part of his Post-crisis Robin time).
But ya, this is also generally a problem, that DC still practices to this day, with Jason, Damian, and other sidekick or kid characters. I even remember seeing a post/article about the departments in DC, especially the Batman comics one, having writers or superiors, that didn't like and outright hated the concept of Robin, they wanted to get rid of Dick Grayson at first, but fortunatly Dick was moved to another department when he became a full time Titan and going on his own adventures completely separate from Batman. This is also why Dick is not that present during Jason's years as Robin... which kinda sucks. Like yes, Dick having his development and building his own team and new hero identity outside Robin, Batman and Gotham was great and all, but it's so stupid and frustrating that the actual reason Dick wasn’t a present brother was because of executive stuff going on at DC rather than that much of an in-universe and character reasons - like, i get that it can be justified by "Dick and Bruce were still going through their issues from spliting up and Dick had his own responsibilities as a solo hero and team leader" - but it wouldn't have been impossible to at least have Dick visit Alfred and Jason more than he did in canon, or show him and Jay having or keeping contact more after their first meeting, or even better, let Jason hang out and get closer to the Titans more, so he can spend more time with his new brother and make hero friends of or closer to his age... i mean, there were some panels that showed, for example, Jason and Dick skiing and Jay going on like 2 missions with the Titans, but it would have been awesome if Jay actually got to build closer relationships with them.
Also, from what i understood, many weren't happy with the introduction of a new Robin... plus Jay was Robin in the comics for just 1 year in real world time (from 1987 to 1988 -> yes, i am not joking... the most known and nowadays canon version of Jason, aka from Post-crisis, was Robin for just a year, the other 4 years of being Robin, aka from 1983 to 1986, was with Pre-crisis Jason that was basically Dick 2.0., and that doesn't even make part of the main continuity, as we know it*) and in Universe he was Robin for about 3 years (he was 12 when he met Bruce and died at 15), and considering that most stories during this time were more focused on Bruce/Batman and on the villain of the week type stories, Jay really didn't get that much character exploration before dying. Which kinda sucks...
*a little note about this: so, in 2022-2023 the Dark Crisis event happened, which apparently restored Pre-crisis as being part of canon, which makes no sense considering that Pre-crisis Jason Todd and Post-crisis Jason Todd are completely different, but ya DC doing DC stuff like usual, uffff - but, i still think that the "main/real" Robin Jason is the one from Post-crisis
Thou, even if A Death in the Family kinda started the way of depicting Robin Jason as too angry and violent, i don't think that the way the conflict was depicted between Bruce and Jason is as bad as it is depicted in recent comics - because it was more about Jason and Bruce respectively missunderstanding each other's side. That being that Jason probably saw being benched as a "step" to be fired like Dick was, or that Bruce thought that he wasn’t good enough to be Robin and that his place as Bruce's son, probably, wasn’t "so secure",, while on the other side, Bruce just wanted to bench Jason from Robin because he was indeed becoming too reckless and violent in the field, so he was worried that his son would hurt himself. So, i think it's important to understand that this story, despite it's many problems, at least tried to be more balanced and "realistic"/genuine with the conflict between the characters. But the thing with the "destined to die and to live in violence" still is kinda shitty, because again, it is leaning into the idea that Jason deserved this, even if everything that happened in this story happened mainly because of miscomunication between Jason and Bruce, and DC not giving the chance for Jay to take another path.
The "voting for Jason to die" thing:
Okay, i am gonna be honest with that idk much about this subject. But i remember reading an article and posts were it is claimed that the vote might have been rigged because a lot of people at the time in DC wanted to get rid of Jason and because, well, the call type vote must have been kind of a mess when it happened through the phone back in the 80s. Plus it is also believed that the people that were able to vote, voted for Jason to die probably mostly to see if DC would really do it, ya know just for the fun of it and to see if DC really had the balls to do it, which many seemed to actually be doubting. So ya... but either way, the fact that people at DC thought about this, is kinda weird and unfair imo, because Jay, like i said before, wasn’t even given the chance to developed or to build a different path other than one filled with tragedy and violence...
The erasure and non-erasure of Sheila Haywood:
As we all already know, the actual reason why Jason died was that he tried to save his mother from the Joker, when he discovered that she was working for him. The problem with this arrives when DC always choose to frame it as "Jason died because of his recklessness and disregard for Bruce's authority when he told Jason to stay put". And the problem with this is that it makes it seem like DC doesn't even consider how a kid in Jason's situation might feel and act and that the fault wasn’t his or his temper's or wtv that he died, as much as it was the betrayal of his mother and Batman literally leaving Jason behind, when he could've and should've taken his son with him to do the rescue and to make sure Jay and Sheila would be save. And especially considering that Bruce was aware that Jason can be quite stubborn and reckless, and that he must really wish to save his mom more than anything, that, logically, Jay would've gone for his mother no matter what Bruce said or how he promissed that he would save Sheila. Also, Batman and Robin are supposed to be partners,, how did Bruce think that with such an important and personal mission for Jason that the kid would just stay on the side lines and wait for Bruce to do something. Also the fact that, somehow... huh, Jason made it to the warehouse way before Bruce did, even if he went for it way before Jason, like?? - but either way, 80s writing used to be weird and stuff, but when it comes to A Death in the Family, many people pointed out that the writing makes almost no sense and it is quite goofy with a lot of things, despite supposedly being a monumental story considering that this is the first time a sidekick dies and stays dead, and in such a tragic way... also that shit is so goofy that it ended with Joker as an Middle East Ambassador or wtv... so ya. Too stupid even by "silly simple fun superhero stories of the 80s" standards.
But the problem, like the title of this point sugests, is that some writers in more modern comics, aka Post-crisis from the 2000s, New-52 and Rebirth, decided to outright erase Sheila from the equation. Which takes away from a relatable and sympathetic factor that lead Jason to his tragic end, and instead focus on just how reckless, stubborn and angry Jason is, and that was what killed him. Also, that now, the reason he got involved with Joker was not because it happened that his mom that he wanted to meet and save was working for Joker but that Jay had a very deep insecurity about himself as Robin and Bruce's son and so he just decided to go after Joker impulsively in order to impress Bruce by stopping and capturing him on his own, which ya... way to ruin it guys... like yes, it can be said that Jay went to Ethiopia looking for his mom originally because he and Bruce were having problems, after all Jay did find out about his mom and decided to leave when he heard Bruce and Alfred discuss to bench him from Robin because he was too violent and reckless in some recent cases, more notably the Garzonas one, and so it makes sense that Jay would kinda associate not being a good enough Robin as not being a good enough of a son for Bruce, and thus motivating him to look for his mom when he, basically accidently/by chance, learned that he has a biological mother that is alive and well, and that might want to have him back as a son.
And then, you have writers that, after others chose to erase Sheila completely (like they did in the New-52), decided to write that the reason Jay died was because of trying to save Sheila, like that line Jay says in Task Force Z, "I died trying to save someone I love.", and it creates this annoying back and forth with this fact... like, erasing and/or bringing a character or their importance to the story or the main characters' development is a big deal, and DC writers just played with Sheila around like randomly throwing the ball to see if it lands on the "Sheila exist this week" or on the "Sheila doesn't actually exist the next week or ever did" side of the field.
Being weird about Jay's relationship with Talia because the writer (aka Judd Winick) wanted to be experimental and that Talia and Jay having "just sex" is not a big deal because it's normal for people to just have sex, the context be damned (also the consequences this could bring in how people view Talia's character):
i don't think i need to elaborate on this more than i already did...
The writer of UTRH (Judd Winick again) went too far while depicting Jason's violence:
Okay, before you go at me for shitting on the writing of a writer that is considered to be the best Jason Todd writer, i have to say that he did some interesting and fun things with Jay, but also paired up with a lot of stuff that contributed to a worse perception of Jason's character and falling further into the "Jason was always destined to be violent and murder-y" hole. Like, he even added more to Jason's time as Robin, but only decided to focus on the more negative parts of it, and while i can understand that he probably wanted to put Jason's flaws and conflict with Bruce at center stage for his return as the villain Red Hood, i think he kinda started the trend of refering to Jay as always being the "Angry Robin" and that everytime there is a flashback with Robin Jason since then it is always about his anger and nothing else. Also, i feel like he kinda forgot to show Jason caring about innocents, aka women and children, while writing this, which is kinda weird considering that he did show that side of Jay in Lost Days...
From the Titans Tower fight till the end of Post-crisis Jason's writing was a complete mess:
i feel like DC reached a point by this time where they had no clue what to do with Jason (and nowadays they are still at this point and have been in it since then, if we are being honest). They decided to either make Jason a total nut case full on villain that hurts a lot of people for no good reason and at the same time have stories were he is an ally to the Heroes and where he does the right thing, even if he is still a bad guy. And the thing is: if DC really wanted to make Jay an anti-hero that walked a grey line where he sometimes did his own selfish desires and still antagonized certain heroes he thinks he has a bone to pick with (like Batman and Nightwing), but that still gave a shit about innocents and would help people even when aligned with villains, they could have but they kinda didn't. Like, i know it's a very cut and dry definition of an anti-hero, but like, comics are stacked full with over used tropes and have created some themselves, and with this Jason could be a more interesting story element everytime he popped up because the readers and the heroes would never know if to expect Jason to be against them or helping them. Plus, they could advance from this by developing him from a more "villainous anti-hero" to a more "heroic anti-hero", and doing so by touching/going on Jason's roots as Robin and what made Jason the happy hopeful kid that loved to help people. But no,,,, they decided to do a complete mess!! DC, why... thou, i kinda feel like this transition of Jason from a more "villainous anti-hero" to a more "heroic anti-hero" didn't happen properly for the same reason Jason became more violent and angry as Robin didn't work that well/felt rushed, and that was because this was made in a short time limit. Because, like Starlin wanted to get to the "fated death of Robin because of his issues" as quick as possible, Post-crisis Red Hood Jason seemed (imo) to suffer from this as well, because Post-crisis (as a continuity/timeline) was ending, the next big retconning event was approaching in DC comics,,, like heck, even the story of UTRH was interrupted sometimes because of a timeline/universe altering event... and then the One Year Later event happened, and Jay seemed to have become "more crazy that ever", and the heroic parts that Jason still had were discarded completely. Which tbh i wasn’t a big fan of, at all. So, Jay ended his Post-crisis story as a full on "deranged villain".
RHATO is a BIG mess; YES, unfortunatly, i mean both of them, maybe exept for the first 25 issues of RHATO (2016) - why did DC have to give Jason's main books to Scott Lobdell?! Also, those first 25 issues of RHATO (2016) are kind of a miracle, all things considered:
So... RHATO (2011) was basically Jason's first big "going on his own with a team in stories non-related to Batman"... and it was awful. Because well, DC decided to make Jason, Roy Harper and Koriand'r aka Red Hood, Arsenal and Starfire the Outlaws, and write them completely out of character. Which ya, pissed off/annoyed a lot of fans... and these are the main reasons why (i think, might have missed some thou, but this serve enough to make a point against this book):
First off, it makes no sense for Roy and Kori to agree to Jason's methods and philosophy, so question: why would they join/form the Outlaws and with Jay as the leader?
Why is Jay the leader when he was no previous leading experience at this point, while both Kori and Roy do?
Why tf was Roy made dumb and Kori into an eye candy character, while being stripped off of their inteligence and kindness respectively?
Why are 2 of Dick Grayson's closests friends, one of which is also an ex-lover, hanging out with his little brother, considering that when those best friends first met that brother they were already adults, and Roy even had his daughter Lian, when Jay was just 12?
General answer: the writer decide to say fuck you to anything and build what could be considered a "male power fantasy" through Jason, also sexism, so he ended up ruining everything and everyone.
Long, more specific to each question answers:
Kori and Roy were "given to Jason" as his teammates and friends and made "more violent and outcasted" from their previous teams and friends/family because DC rebranded with the New-52 and wanted to be more edgy and had no idea what to do with these 2 characters so they decided to shove them together just because... and also because they had no idea what to do with Jason either, like i said previously.
Jay is the leader because "power male fantasy" for and with guys without powers, having no idea what to do with him that could be interesting, human characters in DC are often made the leaders to make up for and balance with their more powerful teammates, Jay is made the leader instead of Roy because the Bats are always up in DC's hierarchy of gets to lead the team and be the main face of the team and comic because money. Also,, look, i know it can be said that Jay, just like any other Batkid, deserved the chance to have his role and his experience as a leader, but because of his short time as Robin he didn't even get that much experience working with others or with a bigger team, besides being partners with Batman, and he never got to have a proper leader role before the Outlaws (and no, being a crime-lord doesn't count because he mostly did things solo, his partners and workers worked with him under fear or because the other option was worse than him, and also he killed the guys he worked with or that worked for him a lot... so ya, i wouldn't call that leadership experience). It really was a decision made just based on "the Bats need to be the leaders at some point of any teams we create" DC rule.
Roy was dumbed down so he wouldn't be the logical leader and because Jason needed a "dumb best friend" or something and Kori, well... the boys needed an eye candy sexy alien woman for the comic to actually be interesting... also, they threw away her kindness because she needs to be as rude and angry as her male teammates.
Also, weird as shit that they decided to give Jay Dick's best friends (or i guess ex-best friends during this time) because they were too lazy to make new friends for Jason.... also they had to ruin their established relationships because why tf not? - also why is Roy only refered to as Jay's best friend when he was/is Dick's best friend (or one of his best friends)... like?? i mean, people can have more than one best friend, but DC doesn't seem to understand that, so...
in conclusion, this book ruined everyone!! Hurray DC, that was such a great achievement *fucking insert infinite tons of sarcasm here*.
Also, to make a little note/comment about something that comes from fandom about this Outlaws Team specifically: i really really really hate that, because of this book, Jason is shipped with either Kori or Roy or with both at the same time in a poly relationship. And while, yes i get the "let them be shipped" because this is just people having fun with the characters and all that,,, no matter how they put these ships, i will always find them gross because of the reasons i mentioned above,, aka Kori and Roy were adults when they met 12-year-old Jason -> like just this alone should ring alarm bells,, Kori is Dick (Jay's brother)'s ex, which akward,, i mean, overall these relationships just give me the icky... okay?? Sorry about this little detour. Moving on from this now. i just really needed to let it out.
RHATO (2016) actually started better... a lot better. The first 25 issues are interesting and have sweet moments that i really like. i said it before, but these 3 are my favourites together, until DC decided to ruin them as well... because why not. imo, RHATO (2016) did better because, well, despite being written by the same writer of RHATO (2011), this one actually fixed some of the problems of the previous one and the character dynamics between the main 3 were pretty solid (for the first 25 issues that is..). And that is because:
Jason and Artemis have great chemistry with each other either you look at it platonicaly or romantically.
Their banter is amazing and so funny.
Love that these Outlaws, especially Artemis, are more the type of "Jason gives an order like he is the leader, but they ignore it because they have a better plan" - that doesn't mean that Jay doesn't have his own good plans/ideas but him being the "main leader" is not as cut and dry as it was in RHATO (2011).
i like that Jay is the more emotional link of the Outlaws, aka he was the one that kept at first the Outlaws together.
The relationships between Artemis, Jason and Bizarro are just so sweet - like sorry, but they make my heart go mush, okay?
i like that even if the writer tried to write a romantic relationship between Jason and Artemis, that they, and especially Artemis, didn't put that much focus on it, it was something that existed in the background while they were more worried about other things, such as their missions and taking care of Bizarro.
But, after that things became kinda bad:
By the end of issue 25, Jason was beaten by Batman because "he killed Penguin" on live television (which btw Jason didn't actually kill him) and so Bruce beat him up pretty badly, some say even worse than he beats his villains.
Thou, i will give it to the story just the fact that i think it's interesting that things for Jason went to shit the moment he decided to go on his own after Penguin without his teammates, which kinda strenghtens the fact that Jason needs someone besides him when something bad happens to him or finds out something bad (like here when he finds out Penguin was responsable for his dad's imprisonment and death).
But a big problem: making Jason's established abusive father seem as some kind of "martyr for his family", even if he actually hurt his wife and son, at the time, more than anyone else. Also, that Jason actually went for it with believing his dad was a good guy and proudly went after Penguin while claiming to be Willis's son. Like, i don't think it's that unbelievable that Jay still cared for his dad, even if he hurt him and his mom a lot, but... the writing paints Willis too much like "a good guy trying to help his family that got involved with the wrong people" while letting Jason's mom and her importance to Jason on the sidelines or outright ignored - like, i know that in Post-crisis, more specifically in A Death in the Family that Willis was refered to as "a dad that made mistakes trying to help his family", but by this point in Rebirth (and with the New-52) Willis was established clearly as having been an abusive husband and father, and more clearly than ever... so, it's kinda fucked up that at this point the writer tried to kinda "hero-fy" him because he abandoned and abused his family for "the good of his family",, like that doesn't erase all the pain he caused his wife and son, either he meant to cause it or not. Also, they brushed over the importance Catherine had in Jay's life, when she was one of the most important people to him in Post-crisis.
Then Artemis and Bizarro are "taken away" from Jason because their multidimensional spaceship hideout went out of control and transported them to another place, leaving Jason alone with a pissed off Batman that wasn't finished with beating his son up, until Roy Harper appeared to save his friend.
After this, things get worse because Jay and Bruce reunite and easily make-up, without actually solving anything, which keeps them for the rest of Rebirth continuing a never ending cicle of: "we are at odds because of our desagreements -> one of us (mostly Bruce) does or says something very fucked up which causes a big fight -> they separate again -> some shenanigans happen and they are obrigated to work together again -> forgiveness or semi-forgiveness ensues -> part ways again -> cross paths again either intentionally or by accident -> repeat cicle again.
Eventually, Artemis and Bizarro return, but their character design is worse, like way worse, especially Artemis's that is just atrocious, being that she went from a well built muscly woman with a one piece suit to the super skiny woman that looks like she doesn't have organs in her abdomen wearing a top, because why not....
The relationships and dynamics between the main trio became weird and boring. Especially between Artemis and Jason, and Bizarro kinda gets ignored until he leaves to become king of the underworld, lol. Oh, and then Jason and Artemis kiss, reach the conclusion they think of each other as brothers rather than lovers (even if they fucking kissed a lot of times at that point), and when they part ways they are both sappy because "they know that what they said to each other then is not true but cannot be together" type bullshit... and like, what?? - i am gonna be honest, at first, ya know in the first 25 miracle issues, a romantic relationship between the 2 seemed sweet and okay, i actually liked it, even if they were kinda doing the "will they, won't they" thing, and honestly, i wouldn't even have been mad if they reached the conclusion that they work better in a platonic relationship than a romantic one, even if they still have romantic feelings for each other. But not the weird ass bullshit the writer pulled with this...
And the time Jason was solo was just mediocre story after mediocre story, uffff.
So, Jay finally kinda gets his own book (even if they technically aren't, as they are team-up books, but they are the closest thing to a Jason Todd solo book as we can get...), only for both to end up being awful for the most part... if only DC gave Jason a better writer. Like, thank everything that most probably Lobdell is never gonna be his writer again, but that doesn't necessarely mean that other writers that followed did him any better.
**Also,, what is somehow even worse is that these books are the ones that popularized in fandom this idea that "everytime a character is paired up with Jason in a Hero Team, they get ruined by him", which makes the dislike for Scott Lobdell and his writing even worse because this man just managed to ruin everything!!
DC is trying to reintegrate Jason into the Batfam - which is something good and could be interesting, but there are some things that are kinda bad/tiring about how they are going about it:
In the New-52 and Rebirth, DC redeemed Jason, thou with the New-52 it was kinda weird because they didn't exactly redeem the Jason that we knew at the end of Post-crisis, but a more "tone down" version of him, since they decided to change most of the characters' backstories in this new universe. And i can understand why DC did this especially for Jason, considering that by that point Post-crisis Jason has gone a little bit too far, to suddently begin a redemption arc with all the baggage "villain" Jason had. So, they basically started over, erasing all the Post-crisis Jason stories except for UTRH, and changed his backstory. One example of one of these changes, was that they retconned Lost Days and changed that part of Jason's story to him training not just with Talia in the League of Assassins but also with the All-Caste, being that Talia guided Jason to the All-Caste to protect him from her father. And then his redemption comes when, after UTRH, instead of Jason doing all the horrible things he did by the end of Post-crisis, he started working with the Batfam sometimes, even if he still did his vigilante anti-hero business mostly alone, and even if Batman didn't aprove of it and Jay's methods, and so, this is where the "Jason is an on and off member of the Batfam" thing started. And then the redemption continued with Jay founding the Outlaws with Arsenal and Starfire, starting working more with the batkids (even if they still were at odds with each other), appeared everytime there was an emergency,etc.
But, as most know, the New-52 has a lot of writing problems, especially considering that Jay and the Outlaws have Scott Lobdell as their main writer. The thing here, that is pretty frustating, is that these ideas with Jason had the potencial to be great,, i mean i do like that Jay got to redeem himself and get closer to his family, but it feels cheap, especially because, for example, DC really thought that in order for Jason to have, at least, a good relationship with Tim, they first had to completely erase the close relationship that Tim and Dick had as brothers (and don't get me started on Cass and what they did do her during this time)... because why not? i guess the Batkids are only allowed to get along with one sibling at a time now,, especially considering that the New-52 was the one that started the idea in fandom that Jason is Tim's favourite and Damian is Dick's favourite, and so Dick and Tim's brothers relationship is left in the wind to be obliterated.
And then, DC rebooted again, and continued with the redemption path for Jason in Rebirth, which was, like i said before, interesting, but then they kinda ruined it. Also, both in the New-52 and part of Rebirth Jason suffered from this limbo of "being or not being part of the family". And is especially frustating with the ever repetitive conflict that Jason and Bruce have. Like,, it does have some good moments and ideas, but the problem is that after a while they kinda become pretty repetitive with each story of Rebirth.... so, like, it would be nice if DC did something more to advance their characters' development and relationships, just saying... also, so much wasted potential with most of the ideas they bring up,, DC why don't you go with your ideas to the fullest instead of constantly keeping your characters in some kind of limbo, uffff.
Robin Jason flashbacks from the New-52 and Rebirth always being under the shadow of his death:
So, i did mention this in passing before, aka that i am tired of seeing DC canon in more recent comics only show Robin Jason as angry and violent. But the thing is,, i don't think they shouldn't show angry Robin Jason at all, they can obviously show that. But the problem is that they never focus on any other characteristics of Robin Jason. Like, even if the kid was angry and violent, that wasn't all that he was, he was also happy, he was also sad, he was also insecure, he also loved his family a lot,,, plus he wasn't angry just because of "teen angst" or "teen disagreements with Bruce", he was angry because of the injustices he and his parents went through and that other people keep going through in Gotham City. And i think it's also obvious at this point that Jason's anger and violent actions were just a protection mechanism he developed to protect himself on the streets and from his trauma. So like, DC should really tone down on bringing up Jason's anger so much, because he is not the "angry Robin", that is not all he is or ever was. Or, ya know, at least they could stop acting as if Jason being angry is just "senseless"/exaggerated.
And we all know at this point that DC does these "angry and violent Robin Jason" flashbacks because they always write with Jay's tragic ending in mind. Everything about Jason since he died, is about his death and only that, even if he has a lot of other more interesting things to explore and deal with than the trauma from his death and his shitty relationship with Bruce.
Jason just cannot have or keep close positive relationships:
It's just the fact that DC really has a problem in establishing Jay into some closer and definitive relationships, other than always having a "up and down" relationship with Bruce. Like, the Outlaws (aside from being ruined by writing), after they decide to eventually separate their ways, aren't put together anymore, for better or for worse, with the Batkids it's just the "we check on you only when something happens and we need your help or there is the possibility that you are going to go too far on a solo mission, aka if you go back into your killing and violence". And for the rest, even including his Robin years, he is mostly isolated from other people, especially people that belong to "his group" aka people of his age, background, generation, with same philosophy, etc. Just like,, why is this boy so alone,, wasn’t he suffered enough on his own?
Fandom also gives me a headache sometimes
Jason being either a feminist or a misogynist:
I am gonna be direct and say that the "Jason is misogynistic because he hurt Mia Dearden/other girls or women" and "Jason always drinks his respect women juice" crowds are weird and make no sense. And also kinda wrong (imo)... and why do i say this...
Well, the "Jason is a feminist/drinks his respect women juice" belief comes from the fact that Jay, at least as Robin, tended to get defensive of women when they were insulted and/or abused, especially when they were so by men, and because of the love he was for both his moms and the relationship and respect he has for Talia. Now, the thing is, this and other examples such as "how he showed respect for Onyx in UTRH because he worked with her and didn't underestimate her as an opponent, and helped her after he incapacitated her", isn't necessarely feminist, i would mostly call it respectively basic respect for other people, caring about vulnerable women because he is a good kid and a hero and because situations where women are suffering at the hands of men bring up his trauma from growing up with an abusive dad that especially hurt his mom, and not underestimating any opponent you come accross because in vigilantism and the world they live in anyone and anything can be quite dangerous if you are unprepared. So, in other words, Jay is a decent human being (even at his worst) that cares about the well being of others, especially people in vulnerable groups such as abused women, but he doesn't have any beliefs or actions that, imo, "make him feminist". Or an outstanding feminist, especially when other characters, that are both heroes and villains, have shown this type of behaviour towards women. Thou,, and i am about to kinda contradict myself,, just reading Jason's Post-crisis stories until UTRH, saying that Jason is a feminist/cares about women being hurt by men is valid, and especially as he is shown to have empathy towards the victims he encounters,, and even more than Bruce was ever shown to have to this type of victims... so that is an interesting and valid point, imo. So, it seems like a weird limbo that is somehow made worse by RHATO's writing bacause ya know, Lobdell,... but ya, i don't think calling Jason a feminist is that wrong either, maybe it depends on the writing you pick, because, ya know, he really has inconsistent writing (the pain of loving Jason Todd T-T).
The "Jason is a misogynist" side believe this because Jay was had many times, especially by the end of Post-crisis when he kinda went too much off the rails in his "crazy villain persona", hurt and insulted women. Which valid, i guess, some can interpret some of his actions and statements during this time as sexist towards women... but the thing is, or actually 2:
Writers projecting their own prejudices towards women through Jason, like for example in how he behaved towards Donna in Countdown. But in that event everyone was pretty ooc, the story was very long and a mess, and Jay during this time was written as being an ass to anything and anyone, so...
Most of the times Jason fought a woman/girl it had nothing to do with them being women - actually if Jason fighting, hurting, insulting and causing trauma and/or awekening past trauma into other characters is misogynistic, then when he does it to boys/men (like he did to Bruce, Dick, Tim, Oliver, etc.), does that mean he is being a misandrist?? Like, what kind of logic is that? - what Jason is actually doing through his horrible actions is getting revenge and spreading on to others his trauma, his pain and suffering. Is he right in doing it, especially to characters he barelly knows and have nothing to do with his pain, such as Mia, Onyx and even Tim and the Titans? Fuck no! But he is not a misogynist through these actions, sorry to say this, but i really don't think he is.
Saying that Jason doesn't care about either women and/or children:
This is a tricky one... and that is because i, and many other fans for that matter, said/say that Jason doesn't necessarely have a "special care for women and children" in a sense. But like i said before he does care, a lot. And it's always nice when we have stories where he is shown doing that (Like in Urban Legends: Cheer and Task Force Z, even if these stories have other problems..), because certain writers (like Winick and Lobdell) kinda forgot about this side of Jason. Jason cares!!!! He cares!! And that is important to point out about Jason because, while, like i said before, this is not a "special/unique" characteristic of Jay like some fans make it out to be, it is important and special for just Jason as a character because he was been protrayed as uncaring, an ass and outright villain before, and, unfortunatly, that protrayal is the one that is the most present in most people's minds (mostly because of the popularity of the story UTRH). So ya, even if Jason did hurt people that didn't deserve it at all and that make part of the group of women and children, that doesn't completely erase or contradict the fact that Jason cares and wants to help (plus reasons i said before like shitty writing that makes no sense and that the people he attacked could still defend themselves or had the capacity to, so like he didn't hurt or go after civilians, ya know. Again, it doesn't justify or make it less of an evil what he did to those people, even if they are trained heroes, but it's also not something that invalidates the statement "Jason cares about people" - it's about nuance). Also,, even if i said that perhaps, by how Jay was written sometimes, that "he doesn't have a special mission in protecting women and children", he actually does, but he isn't shown doing that directly, as he is mostly shown just killing and/or beating the guys that hurt women and children,, which i think is what, paired up with him hurting characters like Mia Dearden, Tim Drake and Damian Wayne, and this hurting actually being depicted directly on panel,, leads other fans to find it "unbelievable that Jay actually gives a damn about women and children when he did this to this specific women/girls and children".
Making people that like Jason or want to defend Jason or discuss his wrong doings feel as being held at gunpoint because people aren't allowed share their opinion either against him, favouring him or even a balance of both (this applies to all fans, including Jason Todd fans, obviously):
Okay so... one thing that i noticed is that people cannot seem to be able to have civil discussions about Jason, in a way. Like, no matter what stance people take on the character, there is always someone ready to "shut you up" because they don't agree with your analysis and/or opinion on the character. Also, yes, this happens with fans of other characters too, but, for some reason, Jason is one of those characters that seems to bring up the most heated discussions in DC fandom.
Also, while yes and obviously, people are allowed to and should interact with posts they disagree with and explain why they disagree, there are some people that take it too far. And i also think this problem comes from the fact that people tend to "cherry-pick" the version of the character that they consider canon. For example, there are people that, because they prefer the stories from Post-crisis, the only valid version of the characters for them is that one, other people prefer the New-52 and/or Rebirth, or they actually prefer the headcanons version of the character because canon is too much of a mess to understand. And honestly, i think they are all valid. The problem comes when people seem to not distinguish "serious discussions, analysis and criticisms" of the actual canon and "fun post that can be either based in canon or just headcanon". Plus, not every jab a person does to a character is a serious criticism or an actual critical post about that character, sometimes they are just dumb jokes that actual fans/people that love that character do for fun. Being a fan of a character doesn't mean defending the character 24/7 or that if they make a joke on the expense of that character that they now hate them... like, we are here mostly to have fun with our favourite characters, and that includes making fun of them and their flaws as much as analyzing and defending them. And also, loving a character doesn't mean that you don't see or talk about that character's flaws and mistakes, as they are. Not everything your favourite character does was to have a moral/positive explanation, sometimes characters can just be shitty people and that is fine.
Also, i don't understand why, but some Jason Todd fans literally act as if he is the only character with bad writing, when like all characters have suffered from it. Heck, some characters even outright disapeared for decades at this point, even if they still have fans that talk and make content about them to this day.
And well, if Jay has bad writing that makes no sense for his character, so do other characters as well -> i am specifically pointing this out because sometimes people do bring up certain characters' bad actions from a certain comic where they were written by someone that seems to not know shit about the characters and made horrible decisions such as making them say something misogynist, for e.g. And some of you people really hold on, like, 3 shitty panels from a comic from 2 decades ago to prove "how bad/sexist/racist/etc" a character is, when they are completely ignoring who the writer is, if what that writer wrote makes sense with what is mostly know/established about that character, if it still applies in more recent comics with the most recent version/characterization of the character. Like, i am not saying people cannot talk about these scenes/panels and criticise/complain about them, like they can, everyone can, but first there is the need to make clear the context of the panels, who wrote it/what era is that comic from (sometimes just this explains a lot) and maybe say at the end "thank fuck they don't write that character like that anymore" or something else along those lines - because ya know context matters in this stuff and while, yes, everything that was written and published by DC comics is canon, i think it's also important to understand where the character is at now compared to that "bad writing version of them" and how this "bad version" compares to other writing from the past or same time of that specific comic. Sometimes that "bad version" is just a speck in an ocean of some pretty good or just decent writing of that character.
Jason fans seem to always be arguing and dividing themselves with black and white ideas of how Jason is, and especially on how he was as Robin:
So... just like anything and any other character fandom out there, the fans tend to also separate themselves in groups defined by what they choose to believe about a certain character. Especially with such complicated characters as the ones from comics that have like a billion versions of themselves.
When it comes to Jason, people devide themselves into very specific ways they see him, for e.g. the most known fractions are:
Robin Jason was an innocent happy boy until modern comics came and ruined it by making him angry out of nowhere (which makes no sense when Post-crisis Jason was shown "doing violence" since his introduction. i mean ya, it was in self-defence when he was scared by Batman finding him stealing his car's tires. But like,, sometimes these people act like the mere thought of Jason doing anything violent or being angry is impossible or complete character assassination when it makes sense that Jay would be phycally and emotionally protective of himself with violence and anger due to his trauma, hard time having to survive alone on the streets and dealing emotionally with all he was been through).
Robin Jason was angry and violent 24/7 (okay this is a general exaggeration, but there are people that think that Jay was mostly angry as Robin, when like during his original Post-crisis comic run he had like 4 big "anger and violence" moments and they all had understanding reasons on Jason's part to be angry and become violent with who he did).
The "the fault is on the Lazarus Pit" crowd (or just on anything and anyone else except Jason himself,, which is kinda ironic because Jason in canon, even at his worse, always took responsability for his violent actions, so...).
Jason is the big protector of women and children (i already wrote what i had to write about this).
And like, these examples and many other fractions, aren't wrong about these characterizations, because, yes, these come from canon, but, again, the problem is with people focusing solelly on one of these sets of characterization, to the point where they ignore the other parts of the character - aka they flanderize the character - which is pretty annoying tbh.
DC fans that claim that the only reason Jason is angry when he returns as the Red Hood is because of his death:
First of all, i know that some people just joke about this in the sense that "it is ridiculous that Jason is angry at the world because he died, when so many other characters have been tortured, have died and returned from the dead in the comics, and especially in DC. So, him and his trauma are not that special". And while i get where the joke comes from, and that DC's most recent writing of Jay's trauma just focusing on on his death at the hands of the Joker doesn't help it. But,, Jason's main issues and trauma don't relate that much to his death,, actually it can be argued that since he returned from the dead that he doesn't really care if he dies again. i don't think that "his greateast fear is to die again", as some seem to believe. i said it before and i will say it again,, Jason's trauma relates more to being let down by his loved ones, especially by his parental figures, feeling like he doesn't matter enough to his dad (aka Bruce) and that the systems that hurt him and continue to hurt others are still rolling and going without any significant change. (For not saying that he never, even to this day, got Justice for what Joker did to him,, which is also ironic because, ya know, Batman and DC's stories are all about Justice... i know this is more complex than this, but this is often a point that gets dismissed to a degree in discussions about Jason and why he wants revenge on the Joker and Bruce. It's not about him dying, it's about not having Justice for himself when he has a father figure that could give him that, but as we all know he didn't, at least not how Jason needed/expected it,, and the fact that Joker still keeps hurting people to this day - thou this problem also comes from the fact that for meta reasons, DC cannot kill the Joker to "give Jason some peace", because he is one of the most popular characters, villains and antagonists to Batman, so there is that).
And while, like i wrote before, people are allowed to joke about Jay "being too emotional over dying, when others have died too and haven't done what he did because of it", i think it's also important to understand that, well, that is actually an exaggeration, ya know, reducing/flanderizing Jason to just "a violent crybaby that is angry at the world just because he died", which again, gives a very reduced and wrong idea about the character to people that don't know much about him. Which is kinda ironic, imo, because sometimes the same people that either joke or seriously describe Jason like this will lose their shit on other people's joke posts about the characters they like more, so like??
Just... ya know the saying -> if you are going to joke/shit/criticise/be mad at a character at least do it about stuff they actually did and/or characteristics that are more consistently shown through out their canon writing.
There seems to be a lack of empathy (especially this one)/sympathy towards Jason coming from a meta level (writers and fans) and the in-universe people (aka characters in Jason's story)
i know that this part just by the title alone can come off as a little bit "dumb", because i am basically saying that no one understands Jason Todd,, which is ridiculous because i didn't create him and, tecnically speaking, the ones that know him the most are the people that created him, wrote him and own him, aka DC comics and their writers. Which is funny considering that for the most part of this post and most Jason Todd fans are always criticising and complaining about Jay's writing. But i think that when we say that "no one understands Jason Todd", we tend to refer more to the modern interpretations and writers of the character. Thou, when i say that other characters don't understand Jason in-universe that is totally right.
(Little note here: i am gonna come off as pretty critical of Bruce and his treatment of Jason. Though that doesn't mean that i think Bruce doesn't love his son. Also, Bruce loving Jay doesn't mean he understands his son, and him not understanding his son doesn't mean he doesn't love him. Bruce loves his son, and Jason loves his dad, they love each other a lot... the problem is them misunderstanding each other.)
So,, let's start this section by taking a step back to Post-crisis Robin Jason and keep going from there.
Jason is introduced to us and Batman as a street kid that had "...stones to rip off the Batman´s buggy--". And Jason's first response to seeing Batman is to hit him with the tire iron and run to his hideout. We see he is alone, defensive and that he misses his mother, and he is making everything he can to survive. This is also where we see Jay have a "sense of justice" or at least an understanding that, even if he also steals, there is a difference between him and other people stealing to survive and stealing for more selfish means, like Ma Gunn was doing in Jason's intro story. So, it is made very clear that Jay is not just some punk that enjoys stealing or hurting or seeing people being wronged and used, like the boys that were sent to Ma Gunn's school were (which fair, included Jason at the time, but he didn't have that much of a hard time running from her. For not saying that when he did he still thought by himself to go after her, when he could have just taken his new stolen tire and simply go home, without returning to help Batman). Then he is taken in by Bruce and he is happy being Robin and staying with Bruce for quite a while.
But... the lack of empathy already begins to show through Bruce, that doesn't seem to wrap his head around what Jason needs to heal from his trauma, and comes off more as patronizing when he "teaches Jason about how to do Justice in their Unjust world", which comes off as even worse when you think about the fact that he is telling that to a kid that was seen and lived those injustices practically since day one. And that is because Bruce cannot get out of his own vision of justice and of healing after a traumatic experience. And especially because Bruce doesn't seem to grasp that Jason's trauma is based on a lot of more difficult and traumatic moments than just having a single defining traumatic moment that changed his path in life forever in a big way, like it happened to Bruce and Dick when their parents died (i know that Bruce and Dick suffered through other traumatic events after their parents' deaths and especially as vigilantes, but the point i am trying to make is that, after becoming heroes and having dealt with their biggest trauma through finding ways to do Justice, they eventually "got used" in how to deal with current and future traumatic events, while Jason as just a 12-year-old kid went through too many traumatic things at such a very young age which compiled into his overall trauma, so it's not just dealing with one single defining moment of trauma, it's a colection of more of those from even before Jay became Robin - and that's what Bruce seemed to miss - also, that not everyone is gonna deal with their trauma, even if it is similar, the same way he did, like sometimes he really forgets that, especially when it comes to his children). But,, even with this in mind, i and others actually think that the writing here, including a little after Jay's death, was more sympathetic (at least) towards Jay's situation than next comics and writers were - and that is because at least, originally, despite Bruce lacking some understanding in how to help Jason, he actually did try with Jay and there wasn't that much villainization of Jay's behaviour, either coming from the writing or from Bruce himself,, considering that, at least, Bruce blames himself for Jason's death instead of the blame being put on Jay completely, and Bruce did try to understand and help Jay before, even if he took a while to "try to do something" and he still failed his son. Thou, there is also a disregard towards Jay's situation coming from other characters as well, such as when the Titans, that together with Bruce, would say things that compared Jason to Dick, and obviously more in the sense of "Dick was amazing, hopeful, less angry, etc., than you are as Robin", which obviously contributed to Jason's insecurities.
And while previous writing of the characters makes them "miss the mark" in understanding Jason,, which can just be seen as a character flaw and a indicator of the fact that the Heroes that existed and that Jay encountered at that time just didn't have similar experiences to Jay to make it easier to understand him and that they all were being kinda "narrow minded" because they missed when their friend, Dick, was Robin,, at least the writing of the story and certain parallels between Jason and some victims he and Bruce encountered did give some validity to how Jason feels.
Then Jay dies, the story when Bruce "beats himself" over Jason's death passes, which fine, quite valid, the characters need to move on. But... the next Post-crisis writers decided to turn Jay from a tragic and misfortunate story to a cautionary tale - and this is where the victim blaming of Jason Todd starts to happen.
So, from this point on the writing starts to look at Jason more as a failure that all young heroes need to avoid becoming. Then this is made even worse when Tim Drake comes around, as the new and cooler Robin that is also more relatable, with some comparisons and jokes made at the expense of Jason and his tragedy, which makes the perception of Jason as a failure even worse. Like, DC was really so stupid that they thought that putting emphansis on Tim's perspective on a kid that he knows next to nothing about was the best and correct way to look at Jason in their overall writing... they didn't even try in making other characters that actually knew Jason, like Dick and Bruce, correct Tim on his assumptions - and why is that?? Well, obviously, because DC really wanted to drive home to the readers that Jason was the "bad angry Robin that got himself killed because of his recklessness"... like it can even be said that Tim showed more respect to Jason's Robin memorial than he did Jason as a person. And while Tim making wrong and bad assumptions about Jay is okay, and again, something that can be seen as a character flaw to explore,, the fact that the writers just chose to reinforce Tim's vision of Jason through other characters is just so stupid and makes it look like no one really knew or even cared about Jason Todd, because they needed to focus on "Jason being the bad Robin" narrative. And again,, the fact that characters that knew and were close to Jason, aka Bruce, Alfred and Dick, didn't correct Tim and contributed, and might even given this idea since the begining to Tim viewing Jason as being too "angry and reckless" and that this is what got him killed, could have been used to explore this flawed vision of Jason that these characters had of him as something that was the result of grief, and perhaps of denial that they failed him (especially in Bruce's case that was there when Jay died)... but naw DC just decided to make everyone seem like assholes towards Jay's memory, a 15-year-old kid that died trying to save his mother (which wow, how tf did no one realize how this came accross when DC wrote and published this...).
Thou, as ironic as it might sound, after Jay digs himself out of his grave (because this poor boy can never have any rest) and spends one year in a coma and then waking up and walking catatonic through the streets of Gotham all alone for almost another year, the person that ends up showing him the most understanding is Talia al Ghul, even if at first she might have just cared about her own plans. So, she is the one that shows and gives affection to Jason, trains him and actually gives him the tools to start his path of healing, even if it is filled with more violence than ever before and revenge. And this is where Jason is finally able to "let loose" to show the world his anger towards it's injustice, where he goes after horrible people that hurt innocents and ends their torture of others once and for all, and he actually gets to show and tell Bruce and the Heroes that they failed him and that their methods might not be as good/effective as they think.
But, this is where people also start (both writers and especially readers) not liking Jason even more or to outright hating him, which fair, he did do some actions towards certain people that, no matter how you look at it, always will be wrong and outright horrible. Which might turn Jason into a little bit of an hypocrite himself, just like Bruce and other Heroes. And while it's not a problem, at all, to critique Jason’s actions when he returned as the Red Hood, this is often used to downplay or outright dismiss Jason’s pain and at least the sympathy that he should still have (or even actually have to begin with) from the writers, audience and in-universe characters. Even as he redeems himself and shows regrets about his actions that he did during his worse time, in more recent stories, people will never forget or forgive and stop holding over his character what a "horrible person he is for his mistakes", even if in the real world it was been 12 years since he started his redemption and in-universe, for a couple of years (at least around 2 years, not sure because comics timelines and ages are a mess, but for quite sometime now either way) he has been putting in the effort to respect his father's wishes and become a "better vigilante" that doesn't kill.
But either way it is put,, Jay doesn't seem to have the right to be right in any capacity anymore, to have valid reasons to still be mad but move on from it just being about his death, and going back to being about the other trauma he went through, which almost everyone seems to have forgotten about, especially because the newest writers or DC superiors forgot about it or outright erased it. So, the parts that gave a "clear reason" to feel for and understand Jason were thrown out of the window so they could just make a back and forth between Jay and Batman, where Bruce is mostly the one in the right, despite being the one that failed so many times at helping his son, and a lot of times being the one that caused Jay more pain than anything or anyone else.
And, honestly, the people that use the "Pit Madness" excuse/explanation aren't giving Jason understanding either, they are just giving him an out so the character can be "redeemed" without actually having anything to redeem himself for,, after all it isn't his fault, so why would he need to take responsability or have a valid reason to do what he did, he simply doesn't have a reason, it's just the Pit controling him and his anger or something. Like a puppet... which comes off more as "fake sympathy" because these people seem to only be capable to empathize/sympathise with Jay if he wasn't in control of his violent actions.
Also, maybe he doesn't need/deserve to be forgiven for the way he hurt people that didn't deserve it (such as Mia, Onyx and Tim), but he does deserve at least some understanding, and understanding doesn't mean you agree to his methods, to how he went about "warning Batman and the Hero community of their errors". And it's a damn shame that this seems to be a hard concept for some writers and fans to grasp.
Plus, it's also such a shame that nowadays writing decided to "corrupt" the little that Jay had as Robin by painting him as an angry and violent punk with no good reasons for why he is like he is. Where is that understanding for that kid that went through such a hard life, that just continued and continues to give him nothing but hardships and pain.
So,, i just wanted to conclude that i think Jason had enough of people (both in meta and in-universe) only painting him as if he is "one of the worst people there was/is", that he deserved the pain he went through, claiming that he had no way to have it better, when that couldn't be further from the truth, if he was properly given the chance to grow out of the cycle of violence and pain, that he still wasn’t fully able to move away from even to this day.
Ending my headaches with this post
Generally, i think it's so funny to think about how much our generation gets attached to fictional characters in such a personal way. And while it is valid to feel and express either positive or negative feelings towards a character and their actions, i think that these need to be more balanced and about things that are true about the character, aka coming from canon, as much as canon gives us so many shitty ideas and some really questionable writing choices. Like, at this point i am so tired that DC keeps doing this to Jay... DC, just please make up your mind once and for all in either or not you want Jay to be part of the Batfam and give him something else to do besides always being at odds with his family and going back and forth in working with and not working with them... just find some basic consistency with him, we ain't asking for much.
And again, just because i love Jason and i did defend him more than criticised him during this post, that doesn't mean that i agree or defend everything he did and/or believed/believes in,, i just enjoy his character and some stories (or really the potential that he had/has) and to discuss about it. But sometimes the writing and some fan opinions really annoy me so much, so i feel the need to camplain about them... so, this is why i made this rant on Jason Todd, one of my favourite characters, despite all the shit he gets.
Anyway,, thanks for coming and reading another one of my Jason Todd rants.
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NGL I do love pre 2011 batfam all having such different internal motivation around killing (and if they agree it's never OK, the why it is not OK is different for people).
Like Bruce has rules that he tries to follow. these are for many reasons, some to keep himself in check, some because if the entire point of Batman is that no other family is torn apart him killing people is literally defeating that point, it reads as generally ideology based. and I think that Bruce's character traits in the 70s or 80s where even if he doesn't kill people he isn't super distraught if they die is kind of interesting and it's a shame the writers dropped it. tho IG it could also be character development. (should note: he also has accidentally killed people but doesn't blame himself for it in some 80s comics like son of the demon)
Cass's rhetoric is based on her compassion and perfectionism and just. it's wrong period. no one deserves to die, and since she always has to be perfect, she always has to be able to save everyone even people who are trying to kill her. i feel like even if there was a case where someone had to kill someone else in self defense, cass would never view that as acceptable for herself because she should always be able to solve everything perfectly.
babs is sometimes vocally anti-killing people but i think it's fucking fascinating that she is also shown as being willing to potentially kill someone pretty often (at least pre new 52 when they removed 95 percent of her personality). not wanting to be faced with the prospect of being a victim again, she lures thinker into a trap with the intention of killing him. even after she's gotten more solid footing, she still is willing to kill to protect other people (she starts getting ready to snipe black mask when she thinks he will kill someone who was working for her in no man's land, before helena as batman shows up) and she is willing to authorize huntress to use lethal force to protect tim.
and tim's rhetoric for not killing people is very 'becuase bruce said so'. no seriously like (link) his rhetoric for a lot of what he does as robin is based on following The Rules ™. who made the rules? Bruce. and if he breaks the rules he feels unworthy. it would've been cool if the writers had acknowledged this way they wrote him so he could develop his own moral code, but I'm not sure they did in what I read. generally bruce was right because he's batman, so tim following bruce's rules for the most part is tim being right. no need to think of it further
dick is very anti-murder in ntt because heroes don't do that ™ and he seems less so in later comics. like he beats himself up a ton for nearly beating the joker to death but in later nightwing issues he's fine with people getting hit by ricochet when they are shooting at him and it is unclear if he maybe causes this guy to get hit by lightning, which kills him (but he had to do it to save a baby). i guess like with tomasi's run on nightwing and late new earth continuity, he just seems in general unconcerned with the whole debate and like. he doesn't use lethal force b/c that's not what you do, but he also doesn't let himself get too concerned about it, and when he was in NTT it was very much just. those are the rules (like tim)
damian's rhetoric starts out opposite from everyone's because killing your enemies is just what you do. like not even out of malice if writers are keeping anything consistent from the original LoS/LoA goal it should be to save people/the world. and he evolves from there. post R:SoB, fter his character arc, he seems to be one of the more anti-killing members of the batfam, probably behind cass, and a lot of it is based in the belief in people to change and his own feeling of guilt and empathizing with the people they fight because! Why was I any different from them? (he does not accept that he was a kid as a reason for why he should be held less responsible). and it's not just a case of 'not killing people b/c they are like me' he often tries to get them to reform. cass does this too.
and you have helena who is portrayed in batfam comics as like. having a super high body count but its fucking hilarious if you read her solo b/c she really doesn't. and she does kill 2 people in her solo, a lot of the time it seems to be based on even if they are a bad person and by her rhetoric they deserve to die, how she is feeling when it is going down. like she was going to rescue one of the guys responsible for killing her parents before he said something indicating he was intending on using her or something that triggered her (I can't remember the exact dialogue) which like what an IDIOT. and she also killed a serial killer, but i believe she felt personally responsible for the serial killer since she had inadvertently provided him with the means to escape from prison and failed to stop him before. i feel like even if she goes in a situation thinking "I am definitely going to kill this guy" she does not always do it, and frequently she can lean to leniency barring external circumstances. but she doesn't consider herself as someone who considers killing automatically wrong, even though there isn't a ton of things different from her situation than from dick or babs's, both of whom who have either been ready to kill people or been unconcerned if people they were fighting died or both.
and then obviously you have jason who is very pro-murder (i'm only going w/ pre flashpoint continuity b/c that's the one i've read more of), who does not care if people who aren't 100% deserving to die by his standards are killed by him (he kills drug dealers w/o giving them a chance to follow his rules to intimidate people or b/c he has no need of them after consolidating his power, he poisons people he can't control who he is poisoning in prison, causing many people to die -- both of these written by winick, generally regarded as the 'good' pre FP jason writer), because he is acting from a place of trauma and pain but believes that if he can control crime correctly he can 'fix' things -- but his reasoning is very based on his own personal experiences and not in compassion for others, or at least the people he allegedly is helping are very abstract and not real for him. and like. it's an interesting character trait because LOTS of batfam members' motives aren't really even tied into compassion when talking about not killing (dick's aren't, tim's aren't, babs's aren't), and some also have their personal experiences highly motivating them (babs, cass, damian).
i realize that steph is not on here but she is also like. really changing based on the writer (so do the others, but her evolution felt harder to track). i feel like pre batgirl-ing, she definitely feels some people deserve to die and might kill someone in anger if they reminded her of her dad and no one stopped her. batgirling, her writing is different, the writer wants to portray her as a little 'softer', more based on hope, but the writer does not actually show us how she changed, which is frustrating.
anyway i just think they're all so interesting and i love them
#batfam#dc comics#barbara gordon#dick grayson#bruce wayne#cassandra cain#damian wayne#tim drake#helena bertinelli
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A RANT ABOUT JASON TODD.
So... it is true. People who like the webtoon haven't read comics or they don't really remember them, right?
Maybe the problem is that fandom's lore has been so infused into what is actually canon that people have lost the sense of what is what.
The "Lazarus Pit" lore has been messed with so much that it is really difficult to draw a line into what is canon or not, I will give everyone that BUT Jason's INITIAL story with the Lazarus Pit is clear, short and not messy at all.
He was basically in limbo, he could move and breathe but he couldn't emote, his brain was not doing great. Because of that Talia decided to throw him in the Lazarus Pit so it could restore his mind. Jason came out of it screaming (as one does) and had to run fast or Ra's would have killed him on the spot.
THAT'S ALL.
Jason's trauma and PTSD is dealt with and mentioned in Red Hood: the Lost Days. That is the book where we see a little bit into Jason's life after the Lazarus Pit and before the events of "Under the Red Hood".
In that book we see Jason having a meltdown and showing clear sings of a panic attack when he finds out that the Joker is out and about (and, of course, still alive). Finding that out effectively triggers Jason and he has a violent outburst that leaves him shaking and crying.
In a page later, he is shown STILL crying and EXPLAINING his feelings. He is explicitly shown having a meltdown, having a violent outburst, a panic attack AND then continue with his life whilst crying because he left people hurt/dead in the place where he was at.
DC showed us Jason dealing with his PTSD and issues a long time ago.
But that's not all because we are also show the internal conflict that JASON (not Bruce) is going through. Jason Todd was going to KILL Batman in a simple way, he was going to make his car explode with him in it BUT he backs down. He shows his conflict on whether he wants to actually do it or not AND whether that was was enough to deliver his message or not.
So once again we are shown Jason's thought process, his motivations and, believe it or not, the trauma that is behind his every thought. Jason's reasoning and actions in "Lost Days" and "Under the Red Hood" are clear consequences of what Jason had been FEELING and THINKING.
The Lazarus Pit was never a motivator, there was NEVER "Lazarus Pit Rage" involved in Jason's decision making. We need to stop taking Jason's autonomy away from his actions back in the day, we need to stop making people believe that the Lazarus Pit influenced him in any type of way because that is a blatant lie that only takes away from the complexity of Jason's character.
Jason's "relationship" with drugs and children being put in dangerous situations is also explored in this book and that is another way to work with Jason's motivations and trauma, it is just a trauma that existed before his death BUT that shouldn't have to be explained to us, we just have to read and pay attention.
Now, I am sorry for being so repetitive BUT In that same book Jason also finds out about the existence of Tim Drake's Robin, in other words, that Batman had yet another child working for him when he knew that the danger of it was mortal.
We get to SEE Jason's reaction with Talia about this and his reaction to the news when he is alone. Just like before I will not be showing any panels because with this post I am trying to make people go READ "Red Hood: the Lost Days" but it is there, the presence of Jason's trauma is being shown to us yet again and not in a webtoon that came out in 2022, in a comic that came out in 2011 to hype readers about an animated movie and the "New 52 Red Hood" run that ALSO dealt with Jason's "trauma" although very badly and repeatedly after it had already been dealt with.
I guess this post is just me being MAD and TIRED of this "the Lazarus Pit made him do it" bullshit that is being thrown our way once more, or even the notion of "Jason still needs comfort when the Joker is brought up".
If anyone believes that the second statement is true then let me point you in the direction of "Batman: Under the Red Hood" where Jason shows us what he thinks of the Joker and what his true problem is with him.
STOP basing your Jason Todd headcanons and beliefs on the fanon versions of him because they are not real, they are not CANON and you are only making things more confusing for new readers.
I know comics can be trash but for the love of Steven with a V, please read comics.
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Since I'm not allowing myself to renew my dcu infinite subscription until midterms are done, I'm working my way through some trades I've been meaning to read via the library. So, thoughts on Robin War (read for Duke Thomas reasons):
Initial Impression: Man the new 52 sure is a continuity
I'd read the first 6 issues of We are Robin leading up to this and also the first 6 issues of Robin: Son of Batman but like, Jim Gordon is Batman now? And has an ugly haircut? Look, I was tangentially aware of the Owls going in and even vaguely aware of the bruce wayne amnesia plot that I assume was happening in the background, but like. The new 52 man.
The Robin laws are kind of stupid. Over here like 'no ones allowed to wear red, yellow, and green.' But also they're supposed to be so I'll give it a pass.
Tom King's writing is honestly the highlight of this event
(I see you with that Batman: Year One visual reference in Robin War #1)
All of those repetitive mentions of "I am Robin" both work with the event and are also right up his writing alley
He also wrote a lot of the really fun Duke moments from this event
And just, Robin War #2 draws all of the plot threads together very well. Tom King does a good job of wrapping everything together and up in an engagin way.
That being said, the plot is still kind of stupid.
I simply do not care about the court of owls, but I suppose they are driving the plot here
I do however, enjoy the various sacrifice plays happening at the end as a result of the court of Owls.
The real worst part of this event were the scott lobdell tie ins with Teen Titans and Red Hood/Arsenal
Everything else was fine to mediocre
Duke was fun though :)
Edit: Forgot to mention! The way that Duke just figures out everyone's identities? I guess it makes sense because of the whole 'Dick getting his identity revealed to the world thing' that I'm pretty sure happened in forever evil, but also like, I'm so used to everyone being ultra paranoid about secret identities that it kind of takes me out.
Okay you can figure out Dick Grayson because he's standing in front of you and the aforementioned getting his identity leaked to the world thing
And also you can from there connect him to Bruce Wayne, and Damian to Bruce
But man... Batman as an urban legend... ultimate paranoia... should he be able to do that...? Idk new52 I guess
#robin war#(it isn't his Batman but I guess that's my tom king thoughts tag now)#havendance reads comics#carthago delenda est#dc#bats + birds + affiliated#tom king tag
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Do you have any Joker recovery fic recs or any that explore his past?
Hey! Fics that focus on Joker's past are not very frequent, but I do have a couple of recs that I hold close to my heart:
+ if you can find me, i'm here by princegrantaire (Jack/Jeannie, rated T, one-shot, 3k words)
Summary: The very first time Jack’s on stage, front and centre, lit up by so many lights, he doesn’t say a single word.
(A look at Jack Napier's sad little life right before ACE Chemicals intervenes.)
+ Again by Ruin (Lurkylurk) (Batjokes, rated T, one-shot, 1.5k words)
Summary: In his dreams that man keeps falling—and he keeps on failing. It has to be this way.
+ Courting Darkness by GrowingAHead (shelleyk0503) (Batjokes, two-parter, rated E, 13.2k words)
Summary: Set in the New 52 verse, “Zero Year: Secret City” (Issues #21-24). *Contains spoilers for that arc. As well as "Bright New Yesterday" (Issue #0) story in the book “The Graveyard Shift”.
Before the Bat, before the fall into A.C.E chemical vat. Bruce tries to infiltrate the Red Hood Gang again undercover. He doesn’t realize that Red Hood One has a different kind of trap set for him. (… And Crane’s prototype fear gas ‘may’ had an effect slightly akin to that of an aphrodisiac in certain doses.)
These explore Joker before the fall into the acid, either in relation to Bruce or outside of it. The last one is basically Bruce and Red Hood One from Zero Year, not truly about exploring Joker's past, but it's got some great characterization and smut.
As to fics focusing on rehabilitation... I haven't read a lot, to be honest, since they aren't really my preference. There's Half Way Across by Dracze, the iconic and quintessential Batjokes rehabilitation fic, and I assume you probably already read it. Outside of that, I can point you towards two fics, although they don't much focus on Joker's past:
+ Atrophy by TimmyJayBird (Batjokes, multi-chapter, rated E, 68.6k words)
Summary: Bruce Wayne is out of options- leaving the Joker in Arkham simply ensures that the man will escape, and hit his city harder with each new visit. Out of desperation, he does the only thing he can think of- chooses to face the clown not as Batman, but simply Bruce, in an attempt to rehabilitate him into society. But the project turns even more dangerous when Bruce finds his obsession with the clown transcends his role as Batman- and when the clown returns the interest.
+ Don’t Mind if I Fall (Head Over Feet) by arrowinthesky (restfulsky5) (Batjokes, WIP, rated M, 25.7k words)
Summary: In the aftermath of great hurt, Bruce takes in a rehabilitated Joker, now known as Jack Napier, expecting the unwarranted generosity to distract him. Heal his own wounds. Ease his guilt. And it does. He just never figured on falling in love, too.
I guess my own fic, Falls the Shadow, is also exactly meant to be... Joker getting better through confronting his own past, but fair warning that it's a WIP and that it's been a while since the last update. It's not abandoned and I'm working on it! It's just that I can't promise anything as of yet, with the way my brain is being.
Anyway! Anyone who has recommendations that fit this description is also more than welcome to add to this post, and if you read these fics-- hope you enjoy, Anon. Don't forget to leave the authors some love <3
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