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evilwickedme · 1 year

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Sorry, Batman was just the other big Jewish superhero with lots of adaptations I knew. Have you seen enough adaptations to do The Thing? Or honestly, do Superman anyway; he fits thematically if not literally

I would LOVE to do a ranking of Clark Kents based on how Jewish they are thank you so much

Worst of the worst is Henry Cavill's Superman. This is Jesus. Fuck this Superman stop portraying him as an otherworldly savior he is of the people he is Clark Kent not just a monstrous twisted version of Kal El !!!! (Sidenote this is also the only role I have ever disliked Amy Adams in.) Jesus himself might have been Jewish way back when, but Jesus metaphors are not, in any way shape or form, Jewish. -2022 years of Christian persecution of Jews/10

As much as this hurts me, next up is Smallville's Clark Kent. Tom Welling does an excellent job in the role and is my personal favorite, but I do have to admit it's at least partially nostalgia. The show opens by putting him on a cross. He redeems himself throughout the show, however, embodying more and more of the comic's spirit as the time goes on, and by the end it becomes very clear that Clark Kent and Kal El are one and the same, and that that is what gives Superman his strength. Accepting your Jewish name ahem Kryptonian identity alongside your goyiche passing name ahem human identity over the course of ten years is very Jewish. 6/10 but it gets some nostalgia points lbr

Next up is Christopher Reeve, may his memory be a blessing. I have only seen two of his Superman movies, but they are such a joy to watch. He truly understood the spirit of the character, the kindness and selflessness and need to help others that stands at the center of who Clark Kent is. His passing at such a young age was a tragic loss in so many ways, the ways he embodied Superman included. 8/10

Finally we have the original comic Superman (i.e. pre52 and post Rebirth, fuck all that n52 nonsense). This Superman is, quite simply, Moses. It was a clear metaphor written into his character by Jewish creators simply trying to express their identities as Jewish immigrants in the late thirties, and so much of that identity has survived the test of time. They gave him a Hebrew name, for God's sake! If I've said it once, I've said it a million times: Superman is the embodiment of Jewish principles of goodness. Making the world a better place is an action, and what better place to see that than in Action Comics? 10/10, we owe so much to Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel.

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olddustorange · 3 months

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Hi, I LOVE the lower and coarser soul and the way you characterized Dick in that and your other fics and What is the essential Dick Grayson reading list that gets you to his character?

HI i love you THE dick grayson run for me is Grayson (2014-2016). I genuinely do not think that u even need to have to have a background in dc or dick grayson to LOVE that series to PIECES because its so much fun and it explains what you need and it layers and complicates and brings out all of the talent and smarts that dick has. Because it was a limited run, it’s also bite-sized and less intimidating. It was the very first DC comic that i seriously kept up with, and it holds up a decade later. It was (is?) my bedrock for his character. I tried, afterward, reading NTT and the like but i found them sooooo boring that i couldn’t stick with it. I used to get a lot of comments that my fics had the NTT dick when i was trying to emulate the dick from Grayson so i think Grayson must get you to approximately the same place character-wise. People who say he’s OOC in Grayson I think do not center the idea that he’s undercover/playing-a-dumb-happygolucky role, not actually being portrayed by the narrative as silly and feckless. It does sooo well at conveying Dick’s talent and pathos and quickwittedness. I also would say Morrison’s DickBats and then Snyder’s Black Mirror run because they’re pretty soluble and good character pieces and then i think N52 nightwing is actually VERY GOOD. Re: NW96…. to be honest imo a lot of it is boring, especially the introductory issues. Its like important groundwork for dick Grayson cultural memory i guess so it is worth a read if u try it and like it but after issue 50 is when it starts to get good so u could just start there. N52 NW on the other hand has a lot of angst and pathos and INTERESTING PLOTS which are well-appreciated in the dustorange household. A lot of Dick’s character in Rebirth doesn’t hit with me emotionally for some reason but the ric arc is actually pretty magnetic and now that its over it is fun to look back and there are some good finds. IN CONCLUSION GRAYSON 2014-2016 is primo dick Grayson literature 👍

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greetings-humans · 2 months

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DC: the very basics

@athenov trust me there are a lot of dc comics and a lot of reading lists but the list i tagged you on seems to be pretty basic and decent afaik! i trust @lornahs's lists a lot!

now, originally this was just for athenov but tbh it ended up so long that it might as well be a generic intro to dc post! it's very basic and slightly oriented to damian wayne (the character that I'm trying to get athenov into)

so, I usually crossreference multiple reading lists to get somewhere, so try crossreferencing that damian wayne one with this. as a general rule of thumb, tumblr usually knows better, but sites like the one linked aren't too bad.

another thing: dc works in phases. every few decades they have an event they call "crisis" (i. e. crisis on infinite earths, infinite crisis, flashpoint, etc, etc) and after that, they essentially reboot most or all of dc.

they might recreate character's back stories, they might change them depending on the author's preferences, they also tend to disregard events from before the crisis. this is a double edged sword. yes they can disregard stupid plotlines. but they have also historically ignored character development, character relationships, etc.

they have literally transplanted one character (Roy Harper) from X dude's close friend to Y dude's best friend, with no reason whatsoever other than not wanting to debute someone new. and mind you in the process of that, Roy lost so much character development!!! and naturally this happened during the new 52 ugh

anyways-- these reboots have specific names that we use to know what period of DC comics we're talking about. a pretty detailed explanation is here.

for brevity, I'll give you the very basics here and a more in-depth explanation below the cut.

Golden Age (1938-1956)

Silver Age & Bronze Age (1956-1985)

Modern Age (1986-2011) (very good, imo) (damian intro was here!)

New 52 (2011-2016) (bad!!! this fucked over more than just roy!)

Rebirth (2016-2018) (better but only sometimes)

DC Infinite Frontier (2021-2023)

Dawn of DC (2023-today)

essentially, you just run away from n52 and you'll be good. also dc wiki is your friend. feel free to ask me if you have any questions tho!! (and this stands not just for athenov! i consider myself relatively new to dc comics cause I've only been into comics for two or three years, after all, and some people are much more obsessed than I am. but I'll def try to help any of the new fans out as much as i can! even if that just means pointing you to another person that can answer your question)

so about the more detailed version of those periods!

we've got golden age, silver age, bronze age. these are old. golden age started during the 1940s. bronze age ended in 1985. I tend to not read anything before 1985 because they're all over the place usually. the themes are also weird cause the comics are old.

then crisis on infinite earths happened and rebooted everything to make things less ambiguous. (until this crisis, if you didn't like the way, say, superman handled things in this issue, you'd just ignore that and go against it and it'd be passed on like a superman from another earth than the other superman. the multiverse was very useful for dc of golden-silver-bronze era. continuity was a hit or miss, at best)

then we have modern age until 2011. this era is the one I usually operate on! many of my favorite characters got some very good runs during this time. damian wayne also debuted in this era with batman #655, which was issued in 2006, according to google.

anyways stan the modern age!

and now things get weird again. the problem with crisis on infinite earths is that it solved some problems but also created new ones. some other crisis events happened to try to fix them but it didn't exactly work out and then we got flashpoint to reboot dc again.

the next reboot is called "new 52" because dc canceled everything and started 52 new titles that could theoretically easily introduce people to these characters. unfortunately, they butchered a lot of characters during this arc, narratively and a esthetically. my own favs have suffered from the new 52. generally, it's not a good era for dc. it was only around for like 5ish years (2011-2016) before DC had to do another crisis and reboot so that tells you how bad things were. (considering the fact that modern age lasted 25 years, this is just sad yknow)

the new era is called rebirth (2016-2018). they basically picked up the stories from modern age and ignored new 52 for the most part, which is iconic. there was another brief era after this to clear up some confusions and restore some memories from modern age that the new 52 had disregarded but all in all things are decent, especially compared to the new 52. admittedly, I haven't read a lot of stuff from after modern age, so take this with a grain of salt.

a few other things happened, like infinite frontier. I don't know anything about it tbh. something weird happened with time and space. this era is a big crisis event essentially, from what i can tell? do we even count it as an era? idfk. I'd say no but the site I linked waayyy above considered it an era so I'll do the same so as to not confuse anyone.

and then there's the dawn of dc, which started like last year or sth, so I got nothing for you about it.

#dc #dc comics #comics #damian wayne #introduction to dc #deelay words

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linkspooky · 9 months

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TITANS, ISSUE #2 THOUGHTS.

This is way late but welcome back to my continual coverage of the new Titans series currently being released by DC Comics. Goodbye anime it's time to return to my real passion cheesey super hero comics. This is the first series since the N52 and Rebirth reboots to feature the classic New Teen Titans lineup so as a fan of the old comics I'm interested to see where they're taking these characters. Especially since this is the first time in like three reboots the focus is on letting these characters grow up.

This is also running simultaneously with World's Finest! Teen Titans which is bringing back the silver age lineup + Bumble Bee and making them canon again. As a fan of the silver age comics I'll be covering that series eventually too. Anyway, issue number two under the cut.

MEET THE NEW BOSS

We open with a much younger version of the Teen Titans about to ambush Brother Blood only to find the Justice League has already taken care of them. As far as I know something like this never really happened in the old continuity. Robin always acted separate from Batman that was sort of the point, and the only time they really clashed was the crossover with Batman and the Outsiders. It culminated in a story arc where Dick Grayson realizing he'd been emulating batman a little too much realized he didn't actually want to lead people the same way that Bruce did.

Then much, much later in the JLA and Titans crossover Technis Imperative. So yeah, The Justice League never really sniped one of the Titans targets. It was more of a silver age Teen Titans thing that they were just considered the Jr. Justice League and the Justice League / Their mentors were more active in interfering with them. By the time of New Teen TItans, they were just the Titans their own independent group.

Wally's not dead (obviously), but an alternate timeline version of him does give us the interesting premise that Dick is tasked with solving a murder before it even happens. It gives Dick a chance to show off his detective training here presenting a unique challenge to his skill set.

Cyborg's question of whether or not Dick has contingencies in place is a reference to the Tower of Babel storyline where Batman prepared weapons to use against the Justice League with the knowledge of all their weaknesses, only for those same weapons to get stolen by Ra'as al Ghul who put them into place and crippled the league while at the same time sending Batman on a wild goose chase by robbing his parent's grave an forcing him to track down where Ra's moved the bodies in order to distract them. It was a pretty big deal in the pre-reboot continuity.

Dick having those same contingencies shows his control-freak Bruce foiling, but at least he's open about it I guess. I'd say that Nightwing having all of those weapons and contingency plans though does put a little too much power in his hands over the others. The whole point of Tower of Babel is it's not so much about Batman always needing to carry krytponite around in case Superman goes evil, as it is that Bruce needs to feel in control and in order to achieve that he disrespects all of his comrades agency by devising methods to control them.

THough later on Dick does have a point that it's Wally's tendency to rush off immediately without thinking because he is a speedster and therefore stretch himself too thin. IT's the right call to keep Wally close when Dick knows that he's going to get murdered soon, but it's kind of wrong to hold "I can keep you here if I want because I know your weaknesses" over his head to get him to stay.

Dick makes another controversial decision by putting Donna in charge instead of Starfire. This is probably to give Donna a character conflict.

It's funny that Dick chose Donna over Starfire considering their track record with leadership. One of the biggest fights Donna and Dick ever had is when Dick trusted Donna with leading the team in his absence and Donna let the whole team fall apart. Basically while Dick was gone Cyborg and Beast Boy ran off, Raven was kidnapped by Brother Blood and missing for months and Donna basically sat on her hands and did nothing about it. All because Donna's greatest character flaw is being unable to live up to the perfect image that everyone else has on her.

It sparked one of the biggest fights Dick and Donna ever had in the comics, they literally got into a fist fight over this. Anyway, in summary Donna does not have the best leadership skills. On the other hand Starfire led the Titans pretty succesfully when they were mentoring Young Justice in the 2003 comics and Dick walked away from the team.

Dick probably just made the call because it's his tendency to trust Donna with everything, due to their close friendship.

At least it doesn't get in the way of Donna and Starfire's friendship. There's a funny little nod here to the New Teen Titans which had pretty constant inner-group conflict, to the point Cyborg would make fun of it by calling their lives a soap opera. The Titans are pretty famously a dysfunctional found family. We'll see if they keep that element in or not.

Two more things set up for future issues, number one it's Garth's turn to be brainwashed by Brother Blood this week. Garth seems like the natural choice to get brainwashed, despite being a member of the original four he's kind of been more of an outsider to the group. In the original silver age titans he felt so insecure about his place in the group he literally developed an illness and had to quit.

The second is that it's mentioned that the explosion that started the fire is Tamaranean in origin. Considering Starfire's Tales of the Titan comic deals with her encountering a pair of sisters with a healthy relationship, and featured an off-hand mentioned of Blackfire.

This could be foreshadowing the return of Blackfire, which I'm excited but also nervous for. Blackfire is one of my favorite villains in all of comics, but her relationship with Starfire is often reduced to "Starfire is the good one, and Blackfire is the bad one" when in the New Teen Titans it became much more complicated than that and became a pretty nuanced analysis of the conflict between a golden child and a scapegoat.

However, my hot take about Blackfire and Starfire's relationship is a rat for another post, so I'll just end things here.

#teen titans #tt meta #teen titans meta #titans 2023 #titans #new teen titans #dick grayson #garth #donna troy #nightwing #wondergirl #starfire #dc comics #dc comics meta

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fantastic-nonsense · 2 years

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This is my first Halloween in a wheelchair so obviously my only costume options are Oracle or Professor X, and as I was looking up Oracle costume references I discovered that Cass and Steph are Batgirl again? In their original costumes??? and Babs is Oracle again??? Am I hallucinating? Is this worth driving to the comic store to read? I haven't touched DC since n52 lol

Well they're certainly not your only options but they are absolutely SUPERIOR options for someone who has the opportunity to take it! And...yes, okay, let me explain the convoluted mess that's behind the current state of events that is "we have three Batgirls operating simultaneously."

In August of 2020, DC had that massive upper management firing event that took out Dan Didio, Bob Harras, and most of the company's upper level editorial, marketing, and publishing staff; further job cuts happened later that year as well. This massively changed the creative direction of the company, leading to a situation where Future State (which itself was a restructuring of Didio's infamous '5G initiative') ended up as a two month "alternate future" event that led to the Infinite Frontier era (starting in March 2021) instead of a dramatic re-shifting of the DCU in the aftermath of the Dark Knights: Death Metal event.

At the time, the Infinite Frontier era was explicitly billed as "everything is canon" due to Death Metal's restructuring of the multiverse as an unlimited "omniverse." As part of this initiative, several things shifted slightly to the left re: the Batfamily. In particular, Cass and Steph were once again allowed to wear bat symbols and have their histories as Batgirl at least semi-acknowledged again (something that had been denied to them for 5 years via editorial mandate).

Thus, as of March 2021 Cass and Steph are both Batgirl again and operating as such. They gave Cass her pre-reboot!Batgirl suit again and Steph a restructured look that looks like a mashup of her Rebirth-era Spoiler suit and her 2009 Batgirl look. Effectively, Babs, Cass, and Steph are all operating as Batgirl simultaneously right now (the same is also happening with the Robin and Wonder Girl mantles: Tim and Damian are sharing Robin and Cassie and Yara are sharing Wonder Girl). DC also announced a Batgirls team-up book (which debuted last December) that supposedly starred Steph and Cass, with Babs acting as their mentor. Unfortunately, it's largely been....not good. The bar was six feet underground and failed to be cleared, unfortunately. Cass's and Steph's best appearances over the past year have been as cameos or supporting roles in other books.

Meanwhile, Babs, having ripped the chip allowing her to walk again out of her spine during the Joker War event earlier that year, got a replacement but was told by Luke Fox that doing anything super strenuous might cause it to degrade and break down (permanently, this time):

"No joke, there is no next time with the implant. Your nerves won't take to it. And we both know what it means if that happens." "I know. And I don't need it to work forever--just for now. I'm fine without the implant." "I know you are." -Batgirl (2016) #48

Theoretically, this was supposed to lead to an era of Barbara technically having the capacity to walk but largely retiring the Batgirl suit to be Oracle again. At least, that's what readers were told at the start of the IF era:

"How do you feel about being back behind the computer?"

"Honestly Huntress, it feels good. There's a big part of me that felt like I could never be in all the places I wanted to be in the costume. Now I can be everywhere again. I haven't hung the costume up for good, but I'll be a little more judicious about when I use it. Go a little easier on my spinal implant. And until then...it's not like this city is going to go wanting for a Batgirl with Steph and Cass on the job." -Infinite Frontier #0 (2021)

Early Nightwing issues seemed to bear that out. Tom Taylor's ableist writing non-withstanding, Babs largely operated as Oracle in both Nightwing and Tynion's Batman run. Then Fear State came around later that year and we started getting dialogue like this:

"That's it. I can't do any more from here. I can't find who's doing this or where they're doing it from. And I can't shut them down, not remotely. I think they're plugged directly into my system. I need to find exactly where they gained entry out there. -Nightwing (2016) #84

DC initially played it off as a one-time thing, a "Batgirl!Babs going out with a bang" story…and then 5 issues later, she was suited up again. And it's been happening more and more often the further away we get from the immediate aftermath of Joker War:

She's semi-regularly using mobility aids in Batgirls, but it's the ONLY book showing that and they're STILL having her suit up regularly. She's effectively a half-time Batgirl, half-time Oracle, and the only writers who have actually utilized her well as Oracle have been Tynion (to an extent) and Mariko Tamaki.

It's an extremely frustrating state of events tbh. On the upside, Cass and Steph are Batgirl again and everyone's pre-reboot history is at least mostly back; on the other, Babs is still the victim of some pretty heinously ableist writing and the restoration of everyone's pre-reboot history has been done so sloppily that in many respects it's difficult to figure out what's canon anymore and what's not.

In terms of going to the comic store/starting to read newer comics again, I think that depends on your perspective. There's absolutely some great stories starring the Batgirls that have been written over the past few years; if you want to pick up Mariko Tamaki's Shadows of the Bat: The Tower event from earlier this year (which as a bonus, is also a big Helena Bertinelli story and finally re-canonized No Man's Land) or her Batman: One Bad Day: Two-Face issue, those are two stories from the past year that are good. If you haven't been keeping up with comics since the New 52 period, I might point you to my Cass and Steph entries on my comics recs list, which feature a few solid recs that have been written since their re-introductions (I have yet to update the Babs entry, largely because I've been so dissatisfied with most of Barbara's comics written in the post-Flashpoint era).

....imo, before you drive to the comics shop, I'd pick out a few comic arcs that look interesting to you and read them on RCO first. There's definitely some gems to read, but we're still in a massive YMMV era for the Batgirls, unfortunately.

#long post #asks #batgirls #barbara gordon #cassandra cain #stephanie brown #dc comics #my batgirls

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clambuoyance · 2 years

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Tim’s robin story to red robin is quite a bit ngl, but here it is as far as i know:

Batman: a lonely place of dying (Batman #440-442 published in 1989)

Tim’s mom dies in Batman #618-621

Robin (1991) , Robin II , and Robin III

Then robin (1993), which is over 100 issues, i’d recommend just reading the stories you want to (steph as robin starts at #126).

Young Justice 1998 — which includes Young Justice: the secret around issue #4)

If you want to know more about the core 4, Bart has Impulse (1995) and Conner has Superboy (1994)

—this is where it gets more messy:

Tim’s dad is killed in identity crisis

Conner dies in infinite crisis

Tim is in teen titans (2003), which i have heard is overall awful but there are some good storylines (like issue 20 which confronts his dad’s death). He also tries to clone conner after his death, which i’m pretty sure is somewhere in this series.

I do not know when batman or bart died. It was probably also in infinite crisis?

All of those caused tim’s low point in red robin, which is immediately followed by the new 52.

Around the red robin storyline, during bruce’s “death”, he is also in Battle for the Cowl

And that’s basically it? There’s definitely things in batman and detective comics that i’m missing but this is mostly it? Sorry this is so long…

From here he’s in teen titans n52, “dies”, isn’t actually dead in rebirth (AKA “revived”), and then he’s in the new young justice where he remembers conner. After that he’s robin again in his new detective comics stories.

thank you this is really helpful!! So far I’ve read the new Batgirls series, and Urban Legends, and I plan on reading all of the new Nightwing stuff as well and probably Robins(?) and various Jason Todd series, but I really wanted Tim Drake content :)

#clam answers #dc #comics talk

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ectonurites · 2 years

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do you think jason’s change in characterization from before and after the new 52 is explainable? like, I know the text doesn’t explain it, but do you think he’s in a place he could’ve gotten pre new 52?

Not really, no.

In part because of something I think a lot of people gloss over when discussing changes with New 52 Jason- there were changes made to not just present day him but his backstory that made a big difference in just… general things for him, that are basically impossible to reconcile with pre-reboot Jason. Some of those have been undone more recently (Sheila Haywood exists again, for example, and back during Rebirth they brought back him taking the tires off the batmobile, etc) but others were referenced only like within the last year and a half/two years of published stuff (Jason training with the All-Caste rather than having the Lost Days version of his time between resurrection and UTRH).

The All-Caste stuff is like… the entire driving force for the start of N52 RHATO (and several other bits throughout, and one of the last big arcs of Lobdell’s Rebirth RHATO). It’s more or less why Roy & Kory end up working with him (and then they just get attached lmao). Jason having this connection to these people who were massacred that he had learned from, that he respected and wanted to avenge, it gave him this mission that was overall pretty noble- take down The Untitled. Training with the All-Caste changed his general demeanor in a lot of ways, sure he still had anger but Ducra worked with him on channeling that, he now has these magic swords he can pull out to use, he’s got this complicated relationship with this girl Essence… there’s all this stuff thrown in that changes Jason’s priorities and behavior.

Pre-reboot Jason himself had killed the people he trained under, because while skilled in the criminal things Jason learned from them, they were also like… child traffickers and terrorists.

Having him go from ‘training under criminals in various skills and then killing each teacher because they were a scumbag’ to ‘trained with ancient magical warrior monks who became like another family that he felt the need to avenge’ changes literally so much about his characterization, his behavior, his demeanor, etc.

So like it’s… I don’t see a way to logically progress from his old self to the New 52 self who comes from that background, because it’s not like something would happen in present day when he’s already Red Hood to change his perspective to that one- it’s stuff that had to happen while he was a freshly-resurrected teen before becoming Red Hood.

And again, the All-Caste stuff wasn’t retconned out at Rebirth (the changes to Jason’s early backstory- how he met Bruce, etc, were what was changed back) it was used again towards the end of RHATO 2016 like a year and a few months ago real-time from when I’m writing this (like… an issue before the RHATO Joker War tie-in). This stuff has been part of him the entire time since the reboot. Infinite Frontier might have gotten rid of it but we don’t know yet.

I honestly like… chalk a lot of reboot Jason’s willingness to make more compromises and work more with the Bats (like for the sake of being part of the family during the Rebirth era especially) as a way of thinking that was in big part a result of his time with the All-Caste and Ducra. It’s like the only way my brain can reconcile pre-reboot Jason with being remotely the same character, having it be ‘oh well I mean things started more or less the same but because of the different paths they went down post-resurrection, they became very different Red Hoods.’

I think pre-reboot Jason could have mellowed out a little bit over time if writers actually picked a solid direction with him, especially if he kept working with Sasha because having a young person around could make him want to be a bit more… actually a caretaker for her, ya know. But not in a way where he’d actually stop the whole killing thing, and not in a way where he’d suddenly be all buddy-buddy with everyone in the family. He’s still driven by anger and revenge, he’s still going to do what he thinks needs to be done whether the Bats like it or not, and he’s not going to compromise his set of morals/ideals.

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acceptsonlynttnightwing · 2 years

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So have you read RHATO beyond the first couple parts because like Roy wasn’t a sidekick in the story. He hung around and helped but at the beginning Jason leaves after rescuing him and Roy later catches up on his own. Also Kori had several arcs about her past as a slave and ambassador who fought to free people. The free sex thing is only an aspect of like the first three comics. Also people do connect silly early Batman with darker modern Batman. Regardless it was a reboot not a straight jump. And I think some people feel like Roy was helped by RHATO was because it allowed a reset from Cry for Justice/Rise of Arsenal. Then Rebirth smoothed over the issues RHATO had. The two kind of worked together to save Roy’s character from the grim dark early version.

—-

Okay, I don’t particularly want to post so much about RHATO so after this one, I’m not going to reply to your submissions unless you send them as (anon if you want) asks I can reply to privately or message me directly. I don’t particularly enjoy the repeated implications that I haven’t read the series I’m criticising either, just because I disagree with you.

Yes, believe or not, I did read RHATO before deciding out of the blue, without reading it, that I didn’t like the series.

And yes, Roy was quite firmly slotted into sidekick roll throughout RHATO. I’m guessing that you’re a Jason fan and so you probably don’t see it. Sure, Lobell might have Roy make the choice to go after Jason, but in all the scenes they’re together, Roy is firmly a supporting character, only around to support and make Jason look better and give him a popular, well known friend. He calls himself an idiot (and acts like an inexperienced one). Even after like 20 issues (when you’d expect him to be a little more, I don’t like the Roy we used to know and love) he just gets relegated to glorified tech support?

It wasn’t call Red Hood and the Outlaws because ROY and KORI were the leads.

As for the stuff about his and Ollie’s relationship and portraying Ollie as the world’s worst father and acting like the Titans abandoned him, well that WAS Lobell’s choice - when questioned he just said he found his Roy interesting, not that editorial or someone was trying to push a certain narative. Plus, even other N52 and Rebirth stories DIDN’T go with the Ollie is the world’s world father angle (canonically, Ollie was just about the best superhero dad of all the Titans’ till they used Snowbirds as a PSA - you’d know if you read previous GA and titans comics), so yes, I can blame Lobell and RHATO for the anti-Ollie and anti-Titans portrayal.

And the NTT and NT series did most of those stories first: about Backfire and Tamaran and Kori’s past as a slave and how it affected her, her relationships, and her outlook on crime. RHATO just comes across as a pale, vaguely familiar copy where the stakes never felt very high and the characters were strange, watered down shadows of themselves.

As for ‘The free sex thing is only an aspect of like the first three comics.’, well that was still 3 comics too much - the way she asked Jason 'is there’s anything I can do for you?’ ugh. How about the thing where he went 'to her kind humans are little more than scents and experiences’? And sure, around halfway through the series they find out that Kori was lying about her memories, but the why is never explained (again part of why I found RHATO all over the place and badly planned). And it’s not the free sex that bothered me, it’s the fact that she had no authority anymore and asked JASON (and guy who’s atleast 10 years her junior) what to do? It’s the fact that she wasn’t shown as intelligent or capable anymore - just as an emotional, explosive character, without any of her previous nuance. A lot of the time, she was just around to be female, shoot starbolts and arc her back sexually - whereas in the ntt, she acknowledged that she was unfamiliar with Earth, but pointed out that she wasn’t stupid. She’d led the Titans before, and seeing her looking to some guy for leadership was really annoying.

All in all, her portrayal in RHATO was softcore porn at the start, and while it improved, her characterisation didn’t really change. Lobell seemed to feel the need to have her and Roy in bed a bunch as if to establish they were a couple (despite both being too bland and uncomfortable to have any chemistry). Plus, who sleeps with their previous best friend’s fiancé? The whole thing was just super uncomfortable.

Some people? Well, everyone has some strange ideas - there are people who like Grant Morrison’s rapist version of Talia. I don’t think (and I’ve explained multiple times) Roy was helped in the least by RHATO since it got rid of his decades of experience and close relationships to tons of heroes, not to mention Lian.

Also, I explained previously that, yes, characters change, but while Batman changed slowly over decades and decades and soft reboots, Roy and Kori were just SUDDENLY these strange new characters in a JASON TODD book with almost no explanation.

Lots of characters get through dark periods without needing the cause of said dark period completely erased? Like, Bruce got past Jason’s death, Wally past Barry’s, etc. Roy’s 'dark period’ as you put it wasn’t that terrible - Lian could have easily been brought back to life in a bit. Also, Ollie’s killing was a pretty chilling moment. Like I said, I don’t think it needed to be rewritten, and DEFINITELY not like in RHATO.

Also, like, Rebirth didn’t fix all the problems with RHATO - Roy in the rebirth Titans was still very different from OG Roy Harper since it went with the RHATO version of the Titans apparently abandoning Roy (Which they didn’t do in the two original versions). IMO they didn’t save the character, 1, because he didn’t need saving and 2 because they sucked.

2. I didn’t understand what you were saying in your next submission - would appreciate if you sent it as an ask and framed it a little more clearly?

#submissions #seriously #send me an ask or something #I'm not taking anymore submissions about this

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celestial-mari · 4 years

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hi mar'i! is it okay if i ask you if you can rate every dickkory adaptations/incarnations throughout the years (NTT, Teen Titans Cartoon show, Teen Titans Go, DCAMU, Convergence, New Order, Kingdom Come, Injustice 2, Live Action) personally live action is my least favorite of all of them, and it has nothing to do with Anna or Brenton, it's the titans writers. They don't care about their relationship at all and i hate that they portrayed them as nothing but friends with benefits,it bothers me

Absolutely! I’d be happy to! I’ll go from least favorite to favorite 😃

#9 DCUTitans

I’m in complete agreement with you. My least favorite version of them is the live-action show. It has absolutely nothing to do with the actors bc I love them both, but the writing is just not there. My favorite thing about DickKory is how they communicate with each other. They talk about their problems and find solutions to them together. DCUTitans on the other hand has them barely speak to each other. I don’t necessarily mind that they started the relationship with a physical connection considering the comics did something similar (with a kiss instead), but then they just did absolutely nothing with it. Then again this show, in general, does nothing with its characters...Maybe it’ll get better, but I doubt it.

#8 Teen Titans Go

I get that this show is first and foremost a comedy, but I’m not really into the unrequited love thing. I find it hilarious since because of the batoffice, Kory is usually left pining over Dick in the comics but here it’s the other way around, but that doesn’t make it rank any higher on the list. It’s cute, mindless fun, but it’s not really DickKory

#7 Injustice 2

Look, I’ll admit it, I’m an angst girl. I absolutely adore it when entertainment breaks me down to tears and sobs, but other than some voicelines and sad endings, DickKory barely exists here. Dick is dead the whole time and honestly this universe just saddens me for Kory. I’m only ranking it this high because whatever crumbs are there are accurate crumbs.

#6 Nightwing: The New Order

We are getting to the part of the list where I actually don’t have many complaints anymore. I enjoyed Nightwing New Order. Jake Grayson is a little underdeveloped, but it’s the only elseworld (other than Convergence) where DickKory actually end up together and happy in the end. I know liking this little book is a controversial opinion apparently, but I thought Dick had a great arc, and Kory was herself through and through. I guess my one complaint would be that I think Kory would have taken Jake with her, rather than leave without him, but it’s a dystopian elseworld so I don’t think it matters that much.

#5 Kingdom Come

I swear if Kory was alive in this universe this one could very well be my favorite. Kingdom Come is what DC should have become instead of all the N52 and Rebirth nonsense. Having characters progress and actually go through life-changing moments is important to and satisfying for readers. Mar’i Grayson is an incredible character who deserves to be in the main canon. She should be co-leading a Teen Titans team right now with Damian, Jon, Lian, and the other members of that generation of superheroes. Not to mention, that Kingdom Come also has my all-time favorite suit design for Koriand’r herself. If only Kory was still alive in this universe... 😢

#4 Teen Titans (2003)

As the first ship I ever had, Teen Titans’ RobStar will always have a special place in my heart. I love TTA! It’s a wonderful version of DickKory and of the Teen Titans, that captures the heart of the original comics while changing it just enough for a different, younger audience. This show even gave us some of the most iconic DickKory comic scenes.

#3 DCAMU

In this house, Apokolips War doesn’t exist. Instead, DickKory got married, had Mar’i and Jake, and lived a long, happy life of fighting crime, saving the world, and being domestic while doing it. Not only is this the best DickKory adaptation outside of comics, it’s also the best Kory adaptation outside of comics.

#2 Convergence: New Teen Titans

It doesn’t get better than Convergence: New Teen Titans. Frankly, I’m tempted to rank it in first place. A universe where they actually get married, no strings attached? No major character death? The perfect Titans team (except for the exclusion of Raven)? Yeah this is the universe I want to read more of.

#1 New Teen Titans (1980)

And of course, I’m sure no one saw it coming, but my all-time favorite version of Dick Grayson and Koriand’r is and always will be the classic: New Teen Titans (1980). It’s perfect in almost every way. They communicate, they learn from each other, they grow to become better people. Had the wedding gone through like it was originally planned? I would not change a single thing about them. Sometimes, you just can’t recreate perfection.

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duketectivecomics · 4 years

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You might've answered this already and I just didn't find it, but one thing that always perplexed me about Duke was how old he was in comparison to the other Batkids. It's obvious he's younger than Dick and Babs, and I pretty sure he's younger than Jason and Cass, and older than Damian, but I cannot tell if he's meant to be Tim and Steph's ages, younger, or older. Could you help me?

You’re all kinds of good here, anon!!! I answered a similar ask abt the Order of Adoption but didn’t dive into specific ages on that post BECAUSE well they didn’t ask lmaooo but ALSO:

Comic ages are very fluid usually! While Years™️ might pass in the canon proper, or while time seems to slow to a crawl, having a character’s age outright stated is something that occurs very rarely for most characters, if at all!

Because it’s always much easier to have a floating age range to work and play around in! It’s easier to keep a character Perpetually 12 or 16 or 25 or mid-40s or- you get the idea. SO, with that in mind. Let’s do our Best to Break Down What Age Duke Might Be Currently A N D how it might interact with the Other Batkids!

(Warning for a Very Long Post, lots of issue citations, and a LOT of comics terminology regarding specific runs/events/continunity. I’m gonna try to keep it as clear/concise as possible ofc but plz keep these things in mind! If you’re not at least marginally familiar with Bat-Comics, you might find yourself feeling a little lost here!)

So from the Zero Year arc we see a common Trend that plays out pretty consistently with Batfam comics: a Life-Changing Event Occuring while the protag is Young™️.

(Batman (2011) #30)

With how Duke is drawn in these particular issues, and given the trends of the past, I’d place him in the 8-12 range. The historic precedent being ofc that that is the same range that canon usually places both Bruce and Dick at for their Tragedies™; the more benign reason being that he... just very much Looks to be drawn in that Range. He’s very clearly an Older/Prepubescent child here.

Fast Forward to his Next Appearance in the Endgame arc and-

(Batman (2011) #37)

He’s definitely older! He’s wiser! And he’s giving Batman a fistbump lmao. Again, no strict age given here BUT, since they condensed each Robin to a Year or Two tops with Bruce (its n52 and its fucked up is what it is), we can assume it’s been at least 4-5 since Zero Year (which would mean if we go off the age range I proposed for that year, then theoretically he could be anywhere from 12-16 here, and I think that tracks pretty well. Not Perfectly and Certainly Not so well with Pre52 continuity ofc, but I’ll talk about that later!)

In We Are Robin, while its not stated Directly In The Text, it IS given as an Informational Tidbit that Duke is 16 (specifically this can be found at the end of issue #4)! (Sweet sweet canon confirmation FINALLY)

We know that WAR takes place Fairly Soon after Endgame (almost immediately, give or take a month or two given that Duke’s been placed in a few foster homes at this point and has racked up Quite A File) now, again id like to remind y’all that while this is a NICE starting point to have, keep in mind that comics are fluid and this may be retconned slightly/ignored in later stories bc Keeping Duke 16-ish is in DC’s Best Interest at the moment. (Having Relatable Teen Characters afterall is a Good Marketing strategy™️. And the longer they can Keep them Young, the Better)

With that in mind let’s take a moment to Highlight the fact that Duke and Damian have crossed paths at this point AND the storylines that have occurred during this year that were meant to be in conjunction with one another!

Because Prior to Endgame, Damian had Died! And just a year (in real, meat-space time) before We Are Robin, he was resurrected and had begun his “Year of Atonement” in the Robin: Son of Batman maxiseries. Midway through both this series and WAR (and, we can assume, midway thru this “Year” for Damian) the Robin War begins/ends and we see at least one major Moment between these two boys who will soon call one another brothers:

(Robin War #2)

Given that R:SoB is followed up VERY quickly by Teen Titans Rebirth (in which Damian celebrates his 13th birthday), we can conclude that Damian would be 12 during this time (well, 12 and 1/2 to play it safe lmao). That being said, this Confirms about a 4yr gap between Duke and Damian! (One Batkid down at least! but he’s the key to the others so put a pin in him!)

As We Are Robin draws to its conclusion, DC was releasing another arc that would eventually flow into the Rebirth Era, by the end of which, Bruce would approach Duke with an Idea (which involves Bruce becoming Dukes temporary guardian & as he states Many Times “Trying Something New” with Duke).

And thus the Rebirth Era begins, and Duke began his Year of training (most directly encapsulated by the Cursed Wheel arc in the All-Star Batman run:

(All-Star Batman #1 (back-up story))

Bruce introduces Duke to a training regimen that Alfred has named “the Cursed Wheel”. It encompasses all the training Bruce and the other bats have undergone and condenses it down into color-coordinated segments that will take Duke a Year to Complete.

It can be assumed that by the End of this Year Duke will somehow miraculously still be 16, despite, again, an entire ass year passing.

There’s one story that takes place mid-year in All-Star Batman, and the Cursed Wheel is meant to be capped off by Duke’s first Official Day as the Signal (in the titular Batman & the Signal ofc) BUT, near as I can tell after this story, Dukes age is not brought up again. So until they DO bring it up either in Batman & the Outsiders or whatever future run Duke becomes involved in, we can assume DC will be working with the idea that he’s meant to be in that 16-18 range from here on out (ie still a minor).

But, dear anon, you might be saying “okay, that’s cool, but how does that relate to my question abt how he falls in with the other Bats?” You’ll have to be a little patient with me here, but I think I may have cracked the code!

Keep in mind I’m gonna be addressing both the Post-Crisis to Flashpoint Continuity (ie mid-80s to 2010 in comics history) and the N52-slash-Rebirth Era (2010-Today). Its generally agreed by fandom and DC alike that these points of rebooting &/or Major Events constitute the era of “Modern” comics, and that everything from the 80s-on might more or less be canon on some level, even if not All of it is.

(Plus, most of fandom usually likes to borrow elements from both eras and much more rarely from stories before it, SO-)

Lets do a quick rundown of how everyone who’s Closer to Duke’s Age, Relates to each other first, age-wise:

Given that Jason was 15 when he died, in A Lonely Place of Dying its established that Bruce had become increasingly reckless since his death, and by the end of the story, Tim has stepped in to fill Robin’s shoes (he states that he’s 13 during this story btw). Pretty soon after, Stephanie Brown is introduced & established to be about a year older than Tim (wish I could pin-point a specific issue BUT, i unfortunately haven’t read any Tim OR Steph-involved comics that predate No Man’s Land... Besides the aforementioned Lonely Place and Young Justice technically, but im working on remedying that soon!)

NOW, during the No Man’s Land event, Cassandra is introduced, and pretty soon into her Batgirl run, its revealed that she’s around the same age as Jason (or at least how old he Would Have Been, had he not died.) Now, given that Jay has an August bday and Cass has a January one, fandom sometimes likes to play around with the idea of one being older than the other (OR even speculating/placing them in an AU as twins/siblings, given that Lady Shiva (Cass’ mom) was a Possible Candidate to be Jason’s biological mother but that’s a Whole Other Thing i wont get into here.)

The point being, Cass, in this era of comics, IS slightly older than Tim and Steph. At Tim’s start as Robin, their ages could either line up like: Tim-13, Steph-14, Cass-15 (being a few months ‘behind’ Jay), then Jason at 15/16 (depending on how soon Tim filled the role after Jay died in April) OR Jason-15/16, Cass-16/17 (in this case she’d be a few months ‘ahead’ now instead)

So brief detour to talk New 52, however! Because Tim, Steph & Cass all got switched around from where DC originally left them prior to the reboot! Now I haven’t read much of them in this era, other than Batman & Robin: Eternal, so my Understanding of their current ages is Spotty at Best. The general consensus seems to be that while before N52, Stephanie had been attending her first year of College (& doing VERY WELL i might add), with the reboot she was set back a few years alongside Tim to a vague Late-Teen state (so 16-18-ish, instead of a Very Clearly Established 18/19). Cass is probably the worst off for this reboot, given that B&R:E basically constitutes her new origin for the new continuity, and does nothing to confirm her age (all I really know is that she’s a Vague Late-Teen too... Probably? Maybe?), given how much they infantilize her, and subsequently how fandom in turn has taken to infantilizing her too, theres a semi-popular fanon that places her Younger that Tim and Steph. And I, for one, propose that we ignore that bc its Weak Sauce my dudes.

Some fans chose to ignore N52 continuity due to this vagueness, and will stick to the ages established before the N52/Rebirth reboots. But its something to keep in mind regardless bc we’re all obviously going to pull from what’s most familiar to us!

But WHERE could we place Duke with regards to them, then? Because them being “Late Teens” is certainly much too vague to work with!

This is Where Damian is the key!

Because Damian is one of those rare exceptions to the Reboot Rule. His story flowed almost seamlessly over from before to after. While he was made a Robin at the age of 10, he continued to grow and learn even after the universe was being rewritten to suit the whims of DC editorial.

If we choose to ignore how everyone else’s ages and origins were swapped around, and stick with the growth that was presented before the reboot, then we can draw some interesting conclusions!

Firstly, though Stephanie also had Died and subsequently Returned, she hadn’t lost much, if any time, from the Ordeal. At the start of her Batgirl run, she is enrolled at a Gotham university and making headway with a more firm foot in the Batfamily (even to the point that she and Damian spend a few issues bonding. At this point in time, Damian is definitely 11, and again, Steph can be assumed to be 18/19 during the course of her run. We’ll assume 18 for clarity’s sake.)

So, then when Damian is 11, now our line up is as Follows:

Dami - 11, Steph - 18, Tim - 17, Cass 19-21 (the range depending again, if you subscribe to Cass being either older/younger than Jason).

WHICH MEANS, If during Robin War Damian is 12 (and a half) THEN We’ve got an age line-up that Potentially looks Like This:

Dami -12(and 1/2), Duke - 16, Tim - 18, Steph - 19, Cass - 20-22 (And Obvsly Jason, Babs & Dick at their varying Older Ages than everyone here)

and im just now realizing i Didnt include Harper in this line-up, but thats bc she’d also throw a big wrench in all this. I’d personally throw her in with being Steph’s age, but I’m pretty sure she was supposed to be either that, or between Steph and Cass (again, since its N52, i believe Cass was/is assumed to be Younger than Steph, but that contradicts the assumed following of pre52 canon that we have for the above line-up, obvsly, and so we ignore that lmao)

All this to say, however, that canon and fandom is what you make of it, and if you want to wiggle these ages around a little, you’re more than allowed! God Knows i usually like to skew the Tim-Steph-Cass age group to be a tad older than this in my own fic writing, and I like to have Duke start as a Robin at 14/15 instead of 16, but that’s just bc I like the dynamic potential it could bring with them being Definitively Older that him, and thus in a more secure place to be Mentoring him right alongside Bruce & the others.

But you might see these age ranges and want to do something Different (say, making Tim, Steph, Cass, & Duke all the Same Age at 17 instead! And that very well tracks with how current comics kinda looks right now!) and you’re absolutely valid to do so! Because again, comic character’s ages are meant to be fluid, not fixed!

And at the end of the day, its all about wanting to see these teen heroes kick serious ass haha

#duke thomas #guest starring:#batfamily #damian wayne #tim drake #stephanie brown #cassandra cain #randywrites #randys meta #meta #asked and answered #anonymous asks #this was A LOT and i tried to throw some humor where i could #but uhhhh yeah!!! i hope this helps anon!!!#also just realizing its TWO AM WHERE DID THE TIME GO #ah well. Worth It

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evilwickedme · 1 year

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Your posts have been slowly waking my long dormant love of Batman. I used to watch the Animated Series when I was very little but haven't really engaged either any Batman related media in over 20 years. Now I'm over here reading your posts with 0 knowledge of the huge comic universe (until you started posting about the Batfam I didn't even know there had been multiple Robins) and trying to figure out where to start. I need to go to the comic store lol

When I get brainrot I really do get brainrot. I'm with you tho I had NO idea that there was more than one Robin until I couldn't stop thinking about them

I totally get you on not knowing where to start and imho going to your local comic book shop is absolutely the best place! I knew NOTHING about DC a year ago but I kept seeing batfam content on TikTok so I went to my lcbs and just said h e l p m e and they suggested some titles and the rest is history lmao

The main problem with getting into any well established characters is, well, that they're well established. Honestly I feel like Damian is pretty straightforward to read for, for example, but even Tim was created in '89, which leaves you with 33 years of comics to try and read, most of which is out of print. And if you live anywhere but the States DC infinite isn't available which just screws you over for no reason imho (although I understand they don't have the reading guides that marvel unlimited does??? Not that I use their guides but I was already familiar with marvel when I joined up). That said, there's still plenty in print - but if you're a total newbie, it's super hard to decide even what character you're into, you know?

Anyway my recommendation is to pick a character and look up a reading guide for them, although I did not do that and ended up buying a lot of crappy stuff I'm going to have to resell. And, like we've both said, visit your lcbs. They know exactly what's popular and most likely have read a lot of the comics in the shop themselves. They can help narrow down the confusing mess that is ALL OF DC COMICS to "try this title and also this title" and then after like six months of that you might be more confident in knowing what to try just because you might like it.

That said, my personal recommendations? If it's by Greg Rucka, it's probably good - I've read Wonder Woman by Greg Rucka and Batwoman: Elegy, and I recently ordered his Lois Lane series too. Under the Red Hood lives up to the hype. I also really like Dick's time as Batman, and there's a specific story called Black Mirror that's really really good and has one of my favorite panels ever in all of comics.

On the other hand, stay away from the terrible Toms (Tom Taylor and Tom King) and Devin Grayson - maybe the most unpopular writers I've ever seen in a fandom like whew they get shat on a lot; don't read Red Hood and the Outlaws (I say as I read RHatO); do NOT start with n52 titles, in fact try to stick to pre-N52 titles or Rebirth titles as a beginner; and do not bother with figuring out big events until you've got a handle on the characters involved because it'll just be nonsense.

Good luck and let me know how it goes!

#ask #dc #dc comics #greg rucka #batfam #gail speaks #rinielelrandir

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augustheart · 4 years

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If you could write your own interp of the Vibe Comics, how would you implement your ideas into already established canon? Say, for example, you get to bring him into Rebirth.

background-wise, keep everything from the n52 with him, but i think the best move right now would be to either establish paco as like...also having existed with the same name and alias as him (just with an e at the end of his last name), which would be incredibly confusing, or go back to retcon him out of the detroit era league, which still existed at some point in current canon even though...n52 cisco also exists? really what i’m getting at is establish n52 cindy and pre52 cindy as two separate characters in one timeline--like just make n52 cindy an alternate earth version of her, i think that would smooth things over pretty well and it makes piradell make a lot more sense (you can just throw it onto one of the dead earths, no one will care).

however as far as story is concerned... have the justice foundation approach him. they need more backstory and more members and i think he’d fit in well with a little rag-tag group of superheroes who are connected to the justice league but not really an extension of it, especially considering the league didn’t do Jack or Shit to help him or anyone else in the circus. have dante still be spying on him for waller (who is pushing gunn to get him to come back into the fold because the flash war stuff proved how extremely dangerous speedsters can be even more than run of the mill villainy stuff already did), of course, but especially have cisco’s main motivation for joining the justice foundation in the first place be because he thinks they can help him save armando better than argus could. they’re superheroes, they’ve already been to alternate dimensions and timelines (or at least some of them have), a couple of them have got some connections to magic in case getting there with technology is a dead end... he thinks these people can help him. of course he wants to use his powers to save people! and this is saving people, because armando and maybe quell if he’s still alive are people! no shady stuff like with argus. this is the right way to do something.

he can be a part of a batch of trainees and new recruits for the justice foundation, along with some other younger people who’ve been in limbo for a hot second, like the remaining corporate doom patrol kids (pulling ted out of his coma so it’s just him and ava being weird exes. vic is alive but i cannot think about anyone with the codename kid slick thanks. shyleen gets resurrected as ava’s gf during a tie in storyline), coupla former teen titans, hell throw in a few of the deo orphans because nobody remembers they exist! because he has actual superheroing experience he’s probably a few levels above the kids who don’t really have any, so he’s hanging out with the former titans and maybe ted and ava. he’s very trusting and people keep telling him to stop being gullible and he’s like haha! no! no matter how many times i get hurt i will not stop because sometimes they do need help! and i have to be there! i have to assume people are good! and miguel barragan or whoever is like i fucking LOVE this dude.

eventually there’s an arc about the team going to save armando which is of course exactly when dante finally comes clean about being forced to spy on him. cisco is very loving but that’s still gonna hit hard because dante is the person he’s closest to and the person he loves the most in the world (the feeling is obviously mutual, i have talked a Lot about how much they love each other) so it’s probably only after armando gets brought back--and is placed under the protection of both the justice foundation and the justice league because they owe cisco that for, again, not doing Jack or Shit with the circus--that they make up. it would be Good. and I Would Like To See It.

(also gonna establish him as bi and trans in passing because who the fuck will stop me? nobody. not entirely sure how i’d do the trans side of that because people really need that stuff spelled out for them apparently but all i really have to do to establish him as bi is have him talk about the massive crush he used to have on. like. superman. when he was a kid. (think it would be cute for him to have a crush on gregorio, too, just because i have such a soft spot for gregorio and i think they could really bond if we put cisco on the justice foundation.))

#i think abt this all the time thank u very much #sorry for the post but g-d i love him SOOO MUCH #cisco ramon #long post #Anonymous

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coolgirl · 4 years

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Heyo! So I've just recently gotten back to the Batfam/Jason Todd fandom recently so I haven't caught up with current comics happenings yet but is it true that L*bd*ll's current run has been dare I say it decent maybe even good??? I saw someone's review of the earlier issues of Rebirth RHATO and it contained a lot of high praise BUT I also see in recent fandom comments here in Tumblr that Jason hasn't been written decently in forever so... what happened? Did it decline over time or...?

It's always been bad. What happened was that at the start Rhato took elements from Jason's past that n52 had erased and we all thought it was good but objectively speaking the dialogue was still a joke, the plot past the first arc (that didio & Johns tailored for him) was all over the place and it just wasn't good. If u Wanna read it read it but personally I think Rhato has always been bad and always will be unless they boot lobdell.

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themyskira · 4 years

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Based on that WW #750 (which sounds like I need to buy mostly for the good parts), I take it you don't like 5G's idea of having Diana be the DCU's first superhero. At least, I think you do? How do you feel about that and the whole 5G thing as a whole? Just curious.

I have less than zero interest in 5G because I haven’t read a single thing about it that suggests it’s any different than the New 52, or Rebirth, or any other Capital-C-Crisis over the past fifteen years.

Dan Didio and his cohort of graduated comics fanbros have this utterly boring preoccupation with creating a Grand Unified History of the DC Universe that takes all the messy, sprawling, sometimes contradictory stories and characters across the last eighty-odd years of comics and organises them all in neat little lines and boxes.

It’s an obsession they’ve argued is about accessibility for new readers -- and both n52 and Rebirth did offer a superficial degree of accessibility by creating clear jumping-on points with fresh story arcs in new #1 issues -- but in practice it looks a lot like Dan and his bros reconfiguring the universe around what they think matters (while erasing or simply ignoring anything they think doesn’t).

It’s the reason the New 52 retained all four male Robins and their key character arcs while erasing two Batgirls and infantilising the remaining one. At the end of the day, Dan Didio, Jim Lee and their pals made the decision that every male member of the core Batfamily (along with their somewhat complex histories of adoptions and assassin babies, deaths and resurrections, and growth into their own iconic vigilante identities) was Important -- and that the three Batgirls and their comparable growth arcs were not.

The past couple of reboots have been riddled with these kind of value judgements, privileging what Dan and the boys see as worthwhile (or what they see as appealing to their narrow target audience of white, heterosexual, cisgender 18-35 year-old men) while sneering at everyone else. They’ve also been plagued by poor planning, poor communication and poor follow-through: in both the New 52 and Rebirth, writers would regularly contradict or confuse the new canon simply because it wasn’t clear to anyone on the books what was and wasn’t in continuity.

So when I yet again hear the words “new timeline” and “Dan Didio” in the same sentence, I don’t care how awesome 5G is as a concept on paper, I don’t trust that it’s going to be implemented with any particular care or aptitude.

And, well. This is just a personal view, but I don’t find it a particularly interesting concept. I don’t read comics for overarching metaplots and crossover events. Nothing turns me off a book faster. I follow characters and I’m drawn to stories that build on a hero’s personal arc, their relationships, their world. It doesn’t particularly worry me exactly how an individual book or arc slots in with the broader timeline of the universe. Shared comic book universes have always been tangled, convoluted places and I’m cool with a bit of handwaving; like a lot of comics fans, I’m long accustomed to flat-out ignoring the bits of canon I don’t like (it’s so sad that Barbara Gordon hasn't appeared in a single DC comic since 2011, don’t you think?).

I much prefer a big wide sandbox, with all its oddities and contradictions and forgotten treasures for writers to draw upon to build interesting stories, over a prescriptive crossover event that derails stories and character arcs in favour of a meta story I’m never going to read anyway.

As for making Wondy the first superhero, I’m... ambivalent. The idea of Diana being an early source of hope who saw the potential in all humanity and inspired others to stand up is lovely, but the more I reflect on it the less comfortable I am with re-anchoring her origins in WWII-era America and the patriotic narratives that are likely to come with it.

It’s of course possible that a writer might use this opportunity to thoughtfully interrogate how the Wonder Woman we know would navigate and push back against the violent bigotry of 1940s America -- but we’re more likely to see a retread of the original propagandistic Golden Age narrative of a heroine who helps the virtuous Americans topple the evil Axis powers, both because of a likely reluctance on DC’s part to get too ~political~ (you know, by acknowledging America’s racist history exists) and because the DCU’s history is intended to follow a similar path to our own world’s (which means Wonder Woman can’t be allowed to change society in any noticeable way aside from ~inspiring~ other heroes... and that immediately creates a rather depressing vision of the eighty years she’s spent in Man’s World).

And that’s the real problem: they’re moving her origin story back to the forties not because they have anything new to say or any particular story they want to explore with the character in that era (like, for instance, Superman Smashes the Klan is doing brilliantly at the moment), but because the five-generation scheme they’re going for requires that Diana (as a designated first-generation hero) appear in the forties. Because Dan and the bros have a Vision and their Grand Unified History of the DCU takes precedence over piffling things like good storytelling and rich characters.

oh and the other problem I have with 5G is the dumbass name because it just puts me in mind of those fucking Telstra ads.

#comics talk #WHOOPS turns out i had more to say than i realised #just let us build our sandcastles in peace dan ffs

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