something about a girl named max and a boy named lucas dating, just clicks in my head

like, i feel like lucas would read a book that max is reading, just so he could hear her talk about it

or when they watch a scary movie, he would let max choose.

max would come to every one of his basketball games, and would cheer SO loud for lucas

max likes to tease lucas about the millions of times they have broken up, and how he always seems to get her back

saying things like 'oh yeah? well next time we break up, a necklace isn't going to win me over. you're going to make a whole speech about how sorry you are. that might sway my decision'

and max comes to lucas's practice's for basketball, but she just reads

every so often, she glances up

'this one's for you, max!'

he throws the ball, aiming for the hoop, but completely misses

she can't help but smile, because she knows that she's not going to let that go for awhile

I will never shut up about the parallel between Mike and Lucas both losing someone they love and doing anything to get them back

no bc i would 100% support will byers having a villain arc

the main thing I love about lumax is how they actually have had real conversations and shared emotionally and learned about each other (unlike some other ships).

the thing is though, I can't think of one lumax emotional sharing scene where it's Lucas doing the sharing. and I honestly can't imagine that when Max wakes up that this dynamic is going to be different.

it's funny that Max has the rep for being the one with high walls, but now she's actually had multiple scenes where she opens up to/in front of him. in fact, I'm thinking Max has spent easily the highest % relative to her total screentime on "opening up" scenes compared to any other party member. while Lucas, the one fanonized as being such a well balanced and emotionally open dude, has actually never said much of anything to his girlfriend, or anyone, about himself.

trying to write this lumax comic about about lucas coming to visit hawkins while in college and not make it equivalent to that one cars meme

Forever obsessed with the fact that Lumax did not actually break up in season 3. Max just looked at Lucas while El was breaking up with Mike and he understood that this was a solidarity breakup. We see Max after and she did not call him to break up with him or anything. And then it cuts to Lucas and he's like "Mike, let's go get our girlfriends back". Like it was almost an act of teamwork. Silent communication "I'm gonna go support my new single bestie, you go support Mike" and they did.

Wow, El, how empowering for US to be single. Wow, Mike, such a bummer that they broke up with US.

Like GIRL. You have a wholeass BOYFRIEND. While you're talking about how hot Ralph Macchio is he's putting on his little bandana to look more like him for you.

There was a miscommunication about the permanence of El's breakup but they were on the same page about this, I'm telling you. They were like "I'll empower my girl, you comfort your boy, we'll circle back and get back together in a week" and I love that for them. Just out here delegating.

isn’t it interesting that for a good majority of audience, all a straight relationship has to do to be considered peak fiction or writing is to make out and have an unhealthy dynamic that loser cishet men can self insert themselves in? for general audiences, these ships don’t need to prove themselves why they’re good - they just have to be a boy and a girl.

but then you got a fully fleshed out dynamic between two characters of the same sex, where their endgame fulfills their personal arcs and are meant to be; they just work, all while still reaching their full potential as characters. but instead of support and, y’know, basic media literacy, it’s always, “why is everything gay now? why can’t they just be friends?” well, because they only ever are! that’s why!

maybe it’s because i’m queer and will naturally be drawn to media i can resonate with, but it’s incredibly rare for me to believe there’s romance in a fictional het ship. it’s almost always souless, always the same formula. there’s no effort to make the audience fall in love along with them. don’t get me wrong, there are queer relationships that also feel poorly written and i cannot seem to be drawn to, but i’ve never experienced this the same amount of times i have with a het ship; not even close.

however, i never felt this way watching stranger things. lumax, jopper, jancy - they are absolutely believable romances. there’s conflict, there’s reason why they love each other. but most of all, the relationship takes its time to grow. the writers understand pacing is an important factor for writing romance.

this is why mileven always seemed so different from the rest, and why it was always destined to fail because of it. it was forced. literally in the narrative, it is pushed upon mike by his friends. el is kissed and because she sees mike in this pedastal from her trauma regarding male caregivers, she follows through and grows an unhealthy dynamic from the understanding of love she’s only ever been familar with. i genuinely believe she never would have seen him in a romantic light if he hadn’t kissed her. and finally, their character arcs just cannot be fulfilled if they continue to stay together - they just can’t. they just go back to square one with zero growth.

there is no actual appeal to the ship. it was cute the first season! but… that’s it? they kept getting pulled away from each other by the story itself, so they get like no time together. and the time they do, they’re busy breaking up. they have no common interests, they can’t give each other what they want/need, they unintentionally trigger each other’s traumas, still have yet to connect on a personal level.

but, i guess that’s what you call beautifully written television romance.. i guess that’s where we are.

a lot of milevens like to point out that el was grieving max and thats why she wasnt reaching out to mike and being distant from him and acting aloof when she slammed the door in the cabin...but the thing is, if that was the case then she would’ve been acting distant and disconnected from everyone. she wouldn’t have had the energy to even smile and be that happy the way she did with joyce and hopper but this only goes to show that she was only treating mike that way specifically (and possibly will too ig)? her literal boyfriend? who at that time could’ve been a support system for her?

in the end they showed us el seeking comfort from hopper and having heartfelt moments with him and being able to look happy along with joyce. yet we didn’t get a single interaction between mike and el in the cabin, or even have them staying close by each other at the very least. she literally saw him and even glanced at him for a moment but kind of just walked by then...used her powers to slam the door? even as i first watched that scene with a GA mindset i thought it felt out of place and didn’t understand why she actually seemed sort of annoyed about something, especially because after that she managed to be genuinely happy around her parents, a stark contrast of emotions. if this wasn’t supposed to be unusual behavior towards mike on her part then will wouldn’t have asked him if she ever talked to him and expressed visible concern over it because it shows that will noticed her weird demeanor around him. he expected her to talk more to mike specifically, because he knew she would’ve actively reached out to him as one of the most important people in her life. if it was just about el grieving and being distant from everyone then will wouldve asked something along the lines of “did she talk or open up to anyone at all?” yet will was inquiring about mike and el’s relationship specifically. why isn’t she opening up more to you at the very least?

and the weirdest part is mike just shrugging it off and saying “not much...i mean, a little bit.” it’s like he didn’t even look worried/concerned about her, he acted so nonchalant about it. you literally can’t deny that he was being a little too calm and indifferent over his girlfriend supposedly being deeply sad and grieving one of her closest friends and not talking to him much. if that wasn’t the case then maybe he was feeling defeated/done over something between them, idk, but it really doesn’t look good for the stability of their relationship. if they truly resolved all their problems and their love for each other was stronger than ever then mike would’ve taken more of an initiative to comfort her at a time when she felt her lowest? and tried to actively do something over her being distant from him? since he was so afraid of her not needing him, too. like those were literally his supposed fears playing out in real time. but he doesn’t, and then we find out the one conversation they had wasn’t even deemed important enough to happen onscreen.

its also important to note that they actually made most of the couples stick together by the end of s4 too, even jancy who were supposedly the ones still having unresolved issues between them. lumax in the hospital, jopper up towards the field holding hands. its pure instinct for them to stay close together and naturally gravitate towards each other, and they’re purposely paired up because it conditions the audience to constantly associate them with each other. yet who did mike choose to stay close with by the end of the season? will. and they made a point to give them one last one on one scene and intimate conversation together too, where they once again confide in each other. the moment they did this, they emphasized byler’s relationship more than mileven’s. and the more i think about it, the more im realizing it doesn’t feel as natural to picture mileven as a dynamic duo or unit as much as the other couples, who have gone through hell and back to their own little missions together. their relationship just wasnt given enough opportunity to develop that way, season 1 was the most we got of them teaming up. since then, el has always been off on her own self discovery arc separate from mike. and mike doesn’t feel like they’re equals, he feels inferior to her which is all the more reason why thinking of them working as a “team” feels unnatural and unlike the way their dynamic is portrayed. well, so much for them being the “main couple” of the show i guess...

hi friends ! i’m marissa (she/her, 25)! any free time I have is spent obsessively writing steddie angst/smut. i currently have 2 wips in progress (both angst w/happy ending), as well as, a handful of completed smutshots.

you can find me on ao3 here

you can find me on twitter here

you can find me on tiktok here

my ko-fi (if you’d like to buy me a matcha or support what i do 💛)

masterlist

✰ steddie ficlets/ask prompts

gym partner steddie: pt. 1, pt. 2, pt. 3 (complete)

scarred love (excerpt from my in progress ao3 fic it's rotten work)

steddie hickeys (completed)

steve's pretty little noises (completed)

shhh, use your words; ft. ftm!steve harrington & steddie mutual masturbation (completed)

steddie valentine’s day edition (completed)

kas!eddie/steve (potential to be continued ! just posted so waiting to see if that’s something people are interested in)

rockstar!steddie with baby girl steve (completed)

steddie phone sex (completed)

perv!eddie/camboy!steve (to be continued…)

on this blog i post/reblog about:

✰ steddie (a lot of steddie, mostly steddie tbh, i think about them 24/7) incorrect quotes, headcanons, ficlets, blurbs, & general ramblings

✰ babygirl steve harrington

✰ joe keery (and djo), joe quinn

✰ gay stranger things ships/content

✰ ronance (my beloved angel girls, nancy wheeler made me gay)

✰ the fruity four, the spicy six, jargyle, lumax, byler, etc.

✰ wip excerpts & fic updates

general notes:

✰ i occasionally post nsfw content, hence this blog is 18+ only

✰ currently accepting prompts/requests for steddie (including nsfw) ! feel free to submit, it's open for anyone :)

other things i'm into that i'd love for you to come talk to me/ask me about in my inbox or dms:

✰ i'm a slut for steddie ? did i mention that yet ?

✰ richard siken and/or gay literary icons in general

✰ the catholic girl to queer girl pipeline (yes, i have religious trauma and yes, my fics often contain religious imagery in an nsfw way)

✰ books, book recs, fic recs, fic writing, fic writers, words, poetry, the thesaurus, word vomit, writer's block, etc.

✰ t.v.: stranger things, lost, alice in borderland, white lotus, got/hotd

✰ movies: horror (genre), wes anderson, ari aster

That anon is right you guys literally make everything about byler or mike and will. Other romantic ships? Exist to parallel byler. Other characters? Exist to prop mike and will. I get that you guys want to find something to talk about byler but its literally gotten to the point i cannot read any posts tagged with lumax, max or lucas etc anymore bc they are all about byler. And it wouldnt be such a problem if it was like 2 or 3 times happened but it is so common in the byler fandom

It's not my fault that they do parallel byler it's just REALITY, it's what the writers put intentionally in the show coming up from scratch with new characters but taking the old ones as a base for a parallel and switching things up like Jonathan being a supporting brother against billy being the abusive one or robin and Vickie doing exactly what Mike and Will were doing

THE WRITERS DID THAT.

It's what the freaking writers wrote and put in the show and they implemented the visual and writing parallels again and again.

A character can be important on his own and also parallel another one that is the freaking first one that has a connection to the main villain!

You people that complain without understanding that when we point out parallels it's something that WE byler fandom did not write but we picked up from the WRITERS are annoying as fuck

Make your own post about the other characters, I have made plenty of posts about them singularly without byler being involved or just block byler in the tags and manage your own space on Tumblr because that's how Tumblr works!

ALSO my post was not about byler it was about Will, Max and Vecna and how both Max and Will have suicidal thoughts in the narrative

I can't with the complete ignorance of people claiming Mike is not the heart of the party because another character seems squishier or something. Anyone watched the show?

There is no party without Mike, There is not looking for Will, no finding El. If there was any finding El, there would be no keeping El because Dustin and Lucas were nothing but freaked by her until THROUGH MIKE they had a lot of possibility to bond with her and appreciate her day saving abilities. MIKE luckily gave her a chance before she did anything useful just out of empathy and general heart matters, or there would have been no Will and general day saving. Mike also holds the connection to El through S2 and well, until now.

There is no indication that Will would ever be friends with Lucas or Dustin if it wasn't for Mike. He repeatedly implied he feels disconnected from them and they treat him like a freak and wouldn't understand him. (seems harsh but he feels that way)

MIKE has a full blown bromance going with both of them tho. "I call bull on your logic because you are my best friend too" *jumps off cliff for Dustin*. And this supercute scene of Dustin finally reaching Mike in the Supermarket in S3 is one of my all time faves. Obviously they gave strong bff vibes in ep1, S4.

Lucas was in the original pitch and by Dustin in S1 described as Mike's best friend and this is definitely showcased in S3 where he seems very motivated to hang out with Mike and pissed off only when he doesn't spend enough time with or pay enough attention to him - same way he felt in S1 according to Dustin. S4 also continues this dynamic although it is a bit generalized with Lucas wanting Mike and Dustin to come to his game and being hurt they don't. (And they want to come for his sake, they're just led astray by Eddie)

Max did not join the party through Mike LOL (She was added by the romance with Lucas.) This was a problem for her and she certainly tried to win Mike over. In S3 she was somewhat antagonistic towards him, a payback for the rejection. Then in the end they had to work as a team and at one point Mike tries to defend her from possessed Billy which leads to him being knocked out and her fearing he died...

Which leads us to S4 in which we see Max sitting next to Mike in class, pushing through the crowd to stand next to Mike at the game, mentioning him before El(!) and Will when giving out letters, which together with Mike mentioning her first when listing his friends back in Hawkins really starts to mean something. Mike is also Max' emotional support of choice, if she can choose.

While other party members have interesting, cute relationships with each other, the only one that is deeper than those characters' relationship with Mike is Lumax.

He is the reason the party exists, he is the center and not because he is some kind of political leader they chose to follow based on his vision and mission, but because he is the Mike they love and are drawn to emotionally. He is the heart of the party. Over and out.

i think it's rather telling that out of all the ships for stranger things characters, byler is the only one where most of the people who ship the "gay alternative" fuckin hate the "straight canon."

ronance is a good ship, but jancy is too. elmax is adorable but lumax is iconic. even when people prefer the gay ship they often feel guilty about splitting up or negating the possibility of the straight ship, because both pairings are great!!!

say what you will about st*ddie, i personally don't care about it, but the amount of support for it vastly overshadows what's shown for st*ncy. seem contradictory to my point??? not at all, when canon doesn't point toward st*ncy endgame.

the stranger things writers know how to write good ships. lumax is fantastic. jancy is beloved. i have mixed feelings on hopper's development, but they built jopper very skilfully. st*ncy sucks because it's supposed to suck. we haven't seen much of rickie yet, but their few interactions were cute.

so why, for the love of god, is m'leven Like That??? it's not that the duffers can't write realistic or enjoyable relationships between younger teens because we've all seen how they've developed lumax. m'leven is a middle school romance that falls through the moment the pressure is on, and it's bloody realistic as that. it's not realistic as genuine soulmateism and it doesn't come anywhere near the standard set by the rest of the show.

i don't think the duffers are inconsistent writers. i think they're very consistent, they're just writing a varied set of relationship dynamics that don't all boil down to boy meets girl, the end.

"Will they?" "Won't They?" Don't Worry My Loves, They Will ;)

Scroll down to see an analysis of who the heck the duffers could be calling a "will they" "won't they" couple. The first section is basically just context with some of my thoughts so feel free to read that as well! <3

On November 5th, a day before Stranger Things Day, the official Stranger Things twitter posted a thread of tweets replacing Steve's iconic 'boobies' quote (I have no idea how else to describe it lol) with various fandom inside jokes and comments like that. Here is the order/content of the tweets!

Okay so, the ships/people mentioned in the previous tweets were Steve Harrington, Lumax (WE LOVE LUMAX, Lucas + Max), Erica, Will Byers, The Byers, JOPPER (WE LOOOVVVVEEEEE, Joyce + Hopper), Murray, Dustin (DUSTYBUUUUNNN), AN ANONYMOUS COUPLE WHICH I WILL TALK ABOUT, and then El.

I find it very interesting that they put the mystery couple directly before el, it's kind of like establishing Els independence for the upcoming season!

Now, what in the world is a "Will they" "Wont they" couple, and who could the duffers be describing?

So this is my understanding of the basic characteristics of a "will they" "wont they" couple;

Romantic chemistry shared by both people

Relationship is threatened by all of the following;

Uncertainty

External obstacles

Internal strife

Romantic tension that remains unbroken or unresolved

Now let's compare this list to different st couples the duffers could be referring to, I'll try and remember all of them but there are a lot so lmk if I miss any! To check the criteria I will name a couple or ship, say their status and go through the criteria as it relates to each! Each couple must meet all the requirements of a "will they" "won't they" ship to be considered as such.

Which ships will I be counting? I mean, the criteria are automatically biased based on my perception of the show, so I'm trying to use solid canon evidence that the couple either is romantically involved or at least one person in the ship is romantically interested in the other. Both characters also have to be a part of the main teams of s4 like either the California (mike will el Johnathan argyle), Hawkins (Dustin steve robin Lucas max nancy erica), or Russia crew (joyce hopper neil murray). (I'm excluding Eddie because he's... well... not a contender anymore). For example, Milkvan would count as a valid ship to consider because , they are dating, but a ship like Dustin and Lucas wouldn't count (only for what I'm trying to do here, ofc I think every ship is valid as long as its respectful, everyone has their own headcanons and I support all of your perceptions of the show ofc <3) because there is no canonical evidence to support this being a possible romantic pairing in the show. Anyway, let's get started, if you have any questions on how I determined if a ship could be considered or not please feel free to message me, I love talking to all of you! Oh also I should clarify as well that I'm only counting ships that have both parties alive (with the exception of max who we aren't sure is alive or not)

Couples I'm choosing not to include (but still meet criteria to be considered): Duzie, dustin and max, robin and vickie (because vickie isn't a part of the main groups and I don't think that their relationship has built up long enough to be considered a wtwtc, however, if you disagree id love to talk about it!)

Color code: True False Is a wtwtc is not a wtwtc

COUPLE Jancy (Johnathan Byers and Nancy Wheeler)

STATUS Dating; They have been dating since season 2 when they got together after an interrogation from Murray. In season 4 they struggled with maintaining the relationship due to the long distance, but when they reunited this was mostly resolved, still some stuff was left up in the air with stancy and all.

CRITERIA (1) Yes there is romantic chemistry (2.1) No, there is no uncertainty with the validity of their relationship. While they may be struggling to figure out how to maintain their relationship, there is no uncertainty about whether or not they are in a romantic relationship. (2.2) Yes, there were external obstacles such as stancy but those obstacles have been resolved and are no longer affecting the couple. For example, will going missing and steve and nancys relationship count, but both of those obstacles have been resolved (2.3) No, there was no notable internal conflict besides shared trauma and anxiety about approaching their feelings for each other. (3) While there is romantic tension between them, the tension was resolved by them getting together and becoming a couple officially

While there is romantic chemistry, the ship did not fulfill all requirements to be considered a "will they" "wont they" couple

COUPLE Stancy (Steve Harrington and Nancy Wheeler)

STATUS Ex's; In season one, Nancy and Steve were in a relationship. They broke up after Nancy called their love bull shit at a high school party. There is some romantic tension again in s4, though it doesn't really go anywhere, at least directly.

CRITERIA (1) Yes, there is romantic tension. Especially in season 4, there are numerous moments of sexual tension. (2.1) Yes, there is uncertainty with the validity of the relationship. However Steve wants to have his "six little nuggets" with Nancy, but we as an audience can visually see how that future doesn't excite her. Steve still loves nancy but nancy does not love steve, no matter how much she hopes she does. (2.2) Yes, there is an external obstacle, Nancy and Johnathan are a couple so that is an obstacle that would get between them from being together. (2.3) No, there are not a ton of moments of internal conflict. Steve potentially likes Nancy again and Nancy doesn't feel the same IMO but even considering that, there is no internal conflict that is a barrier between a platonic or a romantic relationship. (3) No, there is no unresolved sexual tension, as they have already been in a relationship

Jancy does not qualify as a will they won't they couple, they have already been in a relationship, and the romantic tension was already broken so there's nothing new romantically to build up that hasn't already been done.

COUPLE Lumax (Lucas Sinclair and Max Mayfield)

STATUS Ex's, Romantic interests, kinda unclear lol; Max and Lucas got together at the end of season 2, when they kissed at the Snowball. They were dating throughout season 3, however, in the beginning of season 4, we see max isolating herself from the party, and therefore we as an audience understand that Lucas and Max were not together romantically anymore. It wasn't until we see them at billys grave and we also see Max and Lucas together at the Creel house (Lucas asking Max on a movie date) when we finally see them express romantic interest in each other again Not super related but this is a parallel to Jopper with Enzos and the fact that they couldn't go on their date because of multiple obstacles (like Joyce standing hop up to figure out why her magnets weren't working, and hop going to Russia causing everyone to think he was not alive anymore)

CRITERIA (1) Yes, there is romantic tension between Lucas and Max (2.1) While there is uncertainty with what Lumax's future will look like, there is no uncertainty with whether the romantic feelings they have are requited or if they have the potential to be in a romantic relationship because they already have been in a romantic relationship. (2.2) Yes, there is one big external obstacle which is max literally being in a coma lmaooo (2.3) Yes, there are internal obstacles Lucas and Max struggle with regarding their romantic feelings towards each other, especially Max. Max isolates herself after she experiences the trauma of witnessing what happened to billy and she experiences symptoms of vecna's curse, basically she's being vecna'd and that causes her to suffer mentally and therefore she isolates herself from the party, especially Lucas. (3) While there is unbroken romantic tension that came up in s4, Max and Lucas already dated so there is no new romantic tension that could be potentially broken here. "will they" or "won't they" couples are typically built up over numerous seasons, so the previous romantic history between them would disqualify them from being considered a "will they" "won't they" couple.

Lumax can not be considered a "will they" "won't they" couple because they do not fulfill all of the criteria to be considered a wtwtc, and even if they did I don't think that lumax would be the wtwtc they were talking about because they were already mentioned in Stranger Writers' thread as an official ship

COUPLE Mileven (Mike Wheeler and El Hopper)

We already know that Mileven is not a "will they" "wont they" couple because they are already in a romantic relationship, but I'm going to pretend like I don't already know that because its good practice for me to be able to be more open to other perspectives of the show and also I think its important in general to analyze the dynamics of their relationship anyway :)

STATUS Dating; (I am a passionate byler shipper so I will try and be as factual as I possibly can) Mike and El kissed towards the end of season one but didn't get together again until the end of season two when they finally went to the snowball together. El dumped his ass in season 3, Mike said "I love her and I can't lose her again" in a heated fight with the group, and they got back together at the end of the season when El said she loved him too and kissed him. In season 4 we see them struggle with managing the distance as well as discovering their own identities. Mike has trouble saying 'I love you' to el (he is discovering his sexuality simultaneously... regarding his feelings for will), and El is not receiving the type of love she wants and needs from mike. At the end of the season, we see mike and will stand together and El stands alone, which foreshadows an independent El for season 5.

CRITERIA (1) This is something that is super controversial in the fandom, and as a byler supporter I personally don't think that there is any romantic tension between mike and eleven, but I will try and look at it from multiple perspectives.

As a byler supporter, what I see is a longing for romantic feelings, especially from mike. Mike wants to fit in and his role models are nancy and his parents, both of which have been in toxic relationships and fake love (stancy) and that is all mike knows about romantic feelings. In season one people continue to accuse mike of having romantic feelings for el. When Mike first meets el, he treats her kind of how he would treat any other peer, like showing her his toys and being nice and letting her sleep in his basement. The romantic implications of that don't even cross his mind until Lucas and Dustin point them out. There is a huge difference between the was Lucas and Dustin interact with el, and the way mike does. Lucas and Dustin think, oh this is a girl, omg a girl in mikes basement. But mike is focused on finding will, and El could lead him closer to finding him. Mike claims that he has always loved el, but he literally tried to get her to go back to where she came from in their first few moments together. Like we don't see Mike actually push for El to stay until she recognizes will in that photo. Lucas, dustin, even his older sister Nancy all ask him if he likes el romantically. I think this gets in his head a lot, which causes him to kiss her at the end of the season. In season two at the end of the season we see mike sulking at the snow ball. I think mainly this kind of had to do with the fact that will was out dancing with a girl and he felt jealous feelings but didn't understand why or what that meant. That is my perception because of the headcanons I have of byler but if I'm looking at it from a mileven perspective then it was because he assumed she wasn't coming. Personally, I don't think this is why because he knew she was back in town and she was okay and there must have been some communication about whether or not eleven was actually going to the snow ball but either way she showed up and we see his face change. Then right after we see El walk in and I think he uses the shame from his jealousy to motivate him to do romantic things with el, but that could just be my opinion because thats what I believe in my head lol. For el, she only really starts expressing romantic interest in mike after she starts watching soap operas. Mike kissed her in s1, and when she sees couples kissing on the tv in s2, she has a realization that maybe that was something couples do so that means that she likes mike... right? Or does she have this thought because she doesn't have any other exposure to what romance actually looks like? Its an interesting question to dive into, and I'll go in more detail in a future post if anyone would be interested in that. I think something that is very telling is the mileven breakup in s3. This scene has been analyzed over and over again, but in general, the way she says "i dump your ass" so easily and then laughs about it on the bus with max is very telling. Like idk about you but if I was supposedly in love with someone it wouldn't be that easy to just dump them and then giggle about it a few minutes later. In s4 we see el being very inauthentic, like for example she looks at the note on the flowers that says "from mike" and then puts on a fake smile. And over the season we kind of see this fake smile start to break down until she stops talking to mike altogether at the end of the season. At the end of the season El knows that Mike can't give her the love she needs. The fact that he says I love you, which is what El wanted to hear, but she still gives mike the silent treatment after his confession and we don't see them talk for the rest of the season? Like I love you is what she thought she needed but it didn't fix anything because she knew they were just empty words said in the heat of the moment, just like how he said "I love her" in the heat of the moment in season 3. There is soooooo much to talk about, especially in season 4 and season 3, so let me know if you want more of this because I have a lot to say but I should get back to the topic of this post <3

(2.1) No, there is no current uncertainty regarding the validity of their relationship. As an audience, no matter if there is a deeper meaning or not, we know that el has said I love you to mike and mike has said I love you to el. No matter if those words are true or not, we as an audience are expected to believe this as canon and therefore their romantic feelings for each other are not uncertain after Mike said I love you to el. (2.2) Yes there have been external obstacles, however, at the end of season 4 these are all resolved to our knowledge. El is back in hawkins with mike. The only other obstacle I can think of is will, but neither el nor mike are aware of his feelings for mike, so I would save this for a potential season 5 obstacle. (2.3) Yes, there are internal obstacles. Mike is having a hard time saying I love you to el because of internal hardships regarding his sexuality, and el is not receiving the love that she wants or deserves from mike. This is the opposite of a will they won't they couple, this is incompatibility and its obvious. (3) No, there is no unresolved tension. Mike and el have both said I love you, kissed, and had a relationship, there is no tension that needs resolving anymore, if anything their relationship is getting boring at this point IMO (no hate to milevens at all you all are totally allowed to love your ship <3)

No, Mileven is not a "will they" "wont they" couple because they have already broken the tension that is needed to be considered one and they are already in a relationship

COUPLE Jopper (Joyce Byers and Jim Hopper)

STATUS Dating; I think Jopper has always been a will they wont they couple. There has been romantic tension with them since the beginning. Joyce has always been comfortable just walking over to hopper, speaking her mind. We see them start to form an emotional bond over season one. Then throughout the seasons, they get closer which leads up to hopper asking Joyce out on a date and they plan to go to Enzo’s but the plan changes when hopper disappears to Russia at the end of season 3. Season 4 they reunite in Russia and release all the sexual tension by making out in the warehouse thing. It’s a lot more beautiful than that but I have a migraine and can’t think of a poetic way to write that lol.

CRITERIA (1) Yes, there is soooo much sexual and romantic tension between joyce and hopper!!! Literally in every single season, especially season 3 and the end of season 4! Theres no other explanation needed :) (2.1) No, there is no uncertenty with whether Joyce and Hopper like each other romantically or not. We know that both of them like each other and they both have expressed romantic interest in each other. (2.2) I mean besides bob in season 2, and basically the entire world ending, there arent too many outside obstacles currently at the end of s4. Hopper was like kinda gone in another continent for most of the last season though so that counts. (2.3) Yes, there are internal struggles. Hopper struggles with grief and for most of season one and two joyce was emotionally unavailable due to the trauma of losing her son and people telling her she was crazy. Both of these characters love each other, but they are both so scared of losing the ones they love that they love, they cant bare to give all of their love to each other just to have It ripped from them all over again.

This is off topic but this inspired me to talk about loss throughout the show, which is centered around loss. Thats what its all about. The first ten minutes show a a family, a friendgroup, even a whole town that is greatly affected by the loss of a boy. Especially in season 4, I think that the major theme throughout the show was the fear of loss, especially around the idea of love whether it be platonic love or something more. Max distanced herself from the group, partially because she was afraid of causing even more pain and loss than she felt she already had. El was so scared of losing mike, like we can see her desperately trying to be worthy of his love. She wrote to him like every day, she lied to seem cooler than she was, she faked smiles to make sure everything was perfect. Mike is probably the one most affected by the fear of loss in my opinion. His best friend went missing and he thought he was dead, then el went missing, then will almost died again in season 2, then el almost died in season 4, like the amount of times mike has had to deal with the idea of his friends leaving him is very sad. I think a lot of this stems from his childhood. Will is also scared of losing others, especially his sister and brother and mike

(3) No, the tension was broken when they kissed in season 4 lmao. Also when they kept talking about their date. This was a hard couple to debate on, especially since they were a will they wont they couple in the past, but I think because they already broke that tension, and its canon that they have romantic feelings for each other and they have done romantic things together, there is no uncertainty if they like each other more than platonically. I think that jopper is like the original "will they" "wont they" couple, and then that romantic tension was broken and now they're just a slow burn romance! Ugh I love them so much I could talk about them for hours :) If anyone wants to talk about them id love to!

This was a difficult one to determine but since there is no uncertainty with whether their romantic attraction is requited, and the romantic attraction has been acted on, I do not think that they can be considered a "will they" "wont they" because like, they already DID if that makes sense!

COUPLE BYLERRR! (Mike Wheeler and Will Byers)

STATUS Best friends, potential love intrests, gay as hell; Its currently canon that Will is in love with Mike (confirmed by noah schnapp), however it is not yet canon if mike is romantically interested in will (even though it couldn't be more obvious). There is sooooooooo much romantic tension between the two, not to mention the COUNTLESS parallels between them and other couples from the show. Not only just from stranger things, but actual canon gay couples from OTHER SHOWS! Like the duffers put a lot of thought into their parallels. Its truly beautiful, like they are the best slow burn gay romance in all of tv history. Its undeniable.

CRITERIA (1) YES OH MY GOD! There is soooooo much romantic chemistry between the two! Like especially from mike.

BEST FRIENDS DONT LOOK AT EACH OTHER LIKE THAT! tHEY JUST DONT! THEY ARE BLUSHING LIKE NO BODIES BUISSNESS AND THEY ARE LOOKING AT EACH OTHERS LIPS AND THIS INTIMATE MOMENT IS BROKEN SUDDENLY, JUST LIKE SO MANY INTIMATE MOMENTS IN THE SHOW!

Like, come on... theres just so much evidence that they are in love, not to mention all of the "intimate moments" and parallels to other couples. I could go on and on! (2.1) Yesssss there is uncertainty and loooaadddssss of it! The beautiful thing about byler is its up to interpretation. Neither of them just comes out and says out front they are in love, will uses el as a cover for his own feelings, and mike just is scared to be vulnerable about how he feels because of external and internal homophobia. Both of their romantic feelings for each other are shown not only through just words and physical communication, but also through symbols, set, lighting, music, etc. Their story is left up to interpretation because that's just accurate to the time. We are unsure if both of them love each other canonically, but we can feel it, that's the beauty of the show. We know that will is in love with mike. Thats canon. But mike, mike's story is so accurate to the struggle of growing up as a gay kid, and many adults who have grown up in the 80s have said that they identify themselves with mike and wills story! Like as a queer person who grew up with similar feelings to mike and will, its just beautiful to watch their love story unfold despite all of the obstacles they face. (2.2) EXTERNAL OBSTACLES! SO. MANY. EXTERNAL. OBSTACLES. I mean, this is a gay love story about two gay boys in the 1980's, a time when homophobia was experiencing a spike due to the HIV crisis and hate crimes and everything of that sort. And not to mention that mike is in a relationship with wills sister, so even if mike broke up with el, will getting together with his sisters ex boyfriend is kind of a betrayal to her so there's a sense of guilt or shame that's added on top of the feelings he is already having. And for mike, he has to navigate the fact that he cant say I love you to his girlfriend because he already loves will. Also he doesn't know will loves him so he assumes that he has no shot with him anyway. Not to mention all of the supernatural struggles that come with their feelings for each other. Like in season three and two, a lot of the times mike and will have an intimate moment he then feels vecna. Also the fact that will is literally being brainwashed by vecna for like half the season. Also the bullying in seasons one and two when the boys, especially will, have been called homophobic slurs their whole life. This causes shame and guilt for who they are, which makes them hesitant to acknowledge their feelings for each other.

(2.3) INTERNAL OBSTICLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! SOOOOO MANY! First of all internalized homophobia, which mike sufferers from a lot! Its shown throughout the show in so many ways. First of all, mikes relationship with el is kind of an avoidance tactic for mike, as well as a safety tactic. He uses his relationship with el to convince himself that he is in fact straight and he does everything he can to be perceived as straight, even by himself. For will, there is so much shame that has been thrown at him his whole life. Not only from his father but his peers. He has been bullied his entire life and so has mike, they have experienced homophobia their whole lives, which has caused them to believe that they themselves are the problem. And there's a whole other struggle that especially affects mike, which is heteronormativity. The minute he showed el any kindness at all, everyone started asking him if he liked el and were calling her his bf and stuff like that. Hes lived in this headspace that in order to be seen as 'normal', he has to be straight. Like he thinks that getting a girlfriend and giving up on the 'childish' things he enjoyed as a kid like dnd is all a part of growing up. There's just so many internal struggles with both of them, especially in regard to their romantic feelings for each other. (3) No, the romantic tension has not been broken yet! There is sooooo much tension and so many scenes where they seem like they are about to kiss or about to confess their feelings, but they are interrupted by a person, a noise, etc. They are so in love I love them so muchhhh! Like for example the bedroom scene when they're like "I didn't say that" and mike is like "you didn't have to". Like that scene is a direct parallel to another gay ship that KISS after they exchange their little "cool", "cool". But for byler that tension is interrupted by the van arriving, like there are so many examples of this throughout the show! I could go on and on about byler so let me know if you want me to discuss this more :)

Yes, Byler is a "will they" "wont they" couple! While many of the st couples have fit under the "will they" "wont they" umbrella at some point in the show, the unknown romantic aspect of their relationships have all been resolved except for byler! And even if jopper counted as a "will they" "'wont they" couple, the st twt still mentioned them in the thread before they mentioned the will they wont they couple, so it wouldn't make sense for jopper to be referred to twice in the same way.

So to kind of summarize all of those words, byler is the only "will they" "wont they" couple in present-day stranger things canon, which therefore is EVEN MORE evidence that byler will be end game. Especially because the way the line is used in the first place, like steve saying that Vickie obviously likes women, and then that being true in the end, it shows how byler is also true and it will happen! I hope all of this made sense! Sorry this is pretty delayed after the thread came out, I've been so busy and also trying to add to this post as much as I could over the past few weeks haha. If you have any fun things to add or stuff you want to discuss please do! I always love talking to you all. As always, much love to everyone <3

(The end of this post contains potential spoilers for ST4)

AU where after Max and Susan move, Susan and Wayne slowly strike up a friendship. Little by little, they become closer. Then one day, they start dating. Eventually, things get serious. Finally, Susan, Wayne, Eddie, and Max become the healthy, happy family that none of them had before.

After two shit husbands, Susan finally knows what it means to be with a good man and be treated right. She finally has a partner who is worthy of her love.

Although Wayne clearly loves and supports Eddie, he doesn't have to be a single parent and do it all by himself anymore.

Eddie has a steady mother figure for the first time. Susan has her baggage, but everyone in this show does. Eddie is a far better person than Billy, so he would probably be a better son. She would have an easier time loving him.

Max finally has a loving, supportive father figure that she doesn't have to live in fear of. Wayne would love Max. He's got a lot of experience caring for a kid who has been through a bunch of shit he shouldn't ever have had to go through. I think that part of the reason Eddie is such a sweet guy is because of Wayne's influence. He would be the same positive influence in Max's life that he is in Eddie's. As good a guy as Wayne is, however, if anyone were ever to mess with Max, he would shut that down real quick. And if that wasn't enough to deter anyone with ill intentions.....Eddie sure as hell would be. Older stepbrother Eddie would be protective as hell of Max.

Can we talk about the sibling dynamic between Eddie and Max? Because that would be every-fucking-thing.

That sibling bond that Max mourned never having with Billy? She would sure as hell have it with Eddie.

He would introduce Max to all kinds of cool music. Maybe even teach her to play guitar.

And she would teach him how to skateboard! He would absolutely be a klutz about it at first, but he would eventually get the hang of it- although he would never be as good at it as Max!

She would show him her comic collection. He would think it was so cool and they'd bond over that.

Maybe he'd even manage to drag her out to a few Hellfire Club sessions, although she would still act like she thinks it's lame.

Plus you already know he approves of Lucas. There would be Abso-fucking-lutely NONE of that bullshit Billy pulled. No one is a bigger Lumax supporter than Eddie. He definitely drags Max out to Hellfire in attempt to get them back together.

Eddie and Max would teasingly give one another shit, but they have each other's backs. They're protective of each other and God help anyone who decides to mess with either of them.

This is 100% what should have happened. Eddie and Max are two of my favorite characters that deserve so much better than what this show has given them.

Although what actually happened to Eddie and Max sucks, it would still be nice to see Wayne and Susan bond over having such terrible things happen to their children. They're both all alone now. They could be sources of support to one another because God knows they both need it. Although I won't trust the Duffers to do anything that competent.

Anyway, the Mayfield-Munson family lives on in my mind.

it's so clear theyre going with the whole "show not tell" thing to represent love.

lumax? they've never had an i love you scene, yet we just know that they love eachother.

jopper? same thing.

jancy? they haven't said it to eachother on screen, but they have said that they love eachother to other people. however, this wasn't "telling" it was "showing" because it was accompanied by them listing everything that they love about the other person, showing that they truly know and love eachother.

byler? do I even have to explain? since season ONE, mike has shown his love for will, only now has he gone cold. this is clearly him repressing his love for will. if he truly cared for will as just a friend, his actions towards him would not have changed.

will quite literally shows mike that he loves him with the painting. there's also the "i didn't say it" "you didn't have to" scene, which is the biggest piece of evidence to support this theory.

milkvan's relationship this season has been allllll tell. "you never say it" "i say it." and then the monologue of which mike had to be forced to say it. and even after he says it, they dont talk, showing that a relationship like this cannot truly work. they're the only couple with this uncomfortable storyline of having to verbally express their love.

anyways, this was all over the place so i hope you understand what i was trying to say.

i’m super bored so i’m gonna rate stranger things ships! buckle in folks, let’s get into it😎

•mileven—4/10•

it’s ok ig. i’m not like a hater of it? but it’s definitely not a great ship. no hate to mileven stans, it’s just not for me. i liked them in season 1 and 2, but it got toxic and weird in season 3 and season 4 solidified my disdain for it. i think mike needs to do some self-reflection (maybe discover a few things about himself—michael wheeler i know what you are) and i think el needs to become her own person outside of her relationship with him. i wholeheartedly support the el/mike exes-to-besties agenda though!

•jopper—8/10•

they’re so cute oml, i shipped them since season 1 and their build-up and eventual payoff was immaculate! i loved their early season tension and their kiss in season 4 was so so good. they fit so well together. they don’t get 10/10 only because a) i LOVED bob and joyce in season 2 more than life and will forever mourn that joyous man and b) i kinda loved the whole single grumpy father figure/lonely teenage daughter dynamic el and hop had.

•lumax—10/10•

this ship. this goddamn ship. the hurt/comfort. the angst. the teasing. the SOULMATISM of it all. seriously, these two are meant for each other. lucas is max’s safe place, her happiest memory and her favourite escape. max is lucas’ sunshine, his wake-up call, his reason to try. i didn’t use to love them, in fact it was only since season 4 that i’ve been such an avid shipper of them but god. they really are the softest. ‘i like talking with you, mad max’ and ‘i’m still here’ and ‘lucas!’ and the notes and the snowball and holy shit i love them sm.

•byler—7/10•

this is with the exception of season 2 byler, which gets 10/10 (‘crazy together’ oh my god). apart from that, i get the hype for it, but i also want the best for my lil ball of fruity sunshine will byers. he is my baby boy and i will protect him. and i just think that mike needs to do some growing up before he’s ready to be with will. also, i’ve never loved mike as a character (again, with the exception of s1 and 2 mike, he was a sweetie) and i think he’d end up hurting will if they got together at this point. in the future, if mike can prove that he’s matured and grown into himself, i will wholeheartedly support this relationship.

•jancy—6/10•

again, it’s ok. i did love them in season 2, but season 1 jonathan was a creep, and season 3 jancy just didn’t do it for me. jonny boy has grown on me over the seasons, but i think everybody moved on from him taking nakey nakey pictures of nancy without her knowledge wayyyyy too quickly. also, they just want different things in life and that’s ok! i do prefer them over stancy, but if i’m honest, i am absolutely a lesbian nancy supporter. the comphet on that woman is insane. so again, like mileven, i am a nancy/jonathan exes-to-besties advocate!

•stancy—4/10•

they were not it in season 4. like, it made me angry that the duffers tried to push it on us again. i did sort of like them in the early seasons, but steve was a jerk and nancy needed to grow into herself and they went their separate ways for the better. steve became a good person and nancy became the strong, independent badass woman we all know and love. i love them as friends and co-babysitters of the kids, but not as lovers. their arcs wouldn’t have happened without their break-up, and they’re both so different as people that getting back together would’ve been like going backwards. steve’s speech about kids in the van made me physically ill with how a) out of character it was and b) how the duffer brothers tried to make it seem like pushing out 6 kids and living the suburban american dream (read: nightmare) was something nancy would want, when she’s spent 3 seasons displaying an obvious disgust for that kind of life. if they get back together in s5 i’ll be throwing something at the tv.

•elmax—9/10•

they. are. so. cute. i love this ship sm, it’s so wholesome and soft. it just works as well—el allows max to explore her own kindness, her own vulnerability, her own ability to care, and max allows el to explore her own identity, what makes her happy, how to be independent. season 3 elmax was superior, but that scene in s4 where they reunite is utterly breathtaking—‘if you touch her again, i will kill you again’ protective gfs!! honestly, if i wasn’t such a lumax shipper i’d be all in for them. as it is, my motto is currently this: max has two hands! one for el and one for lucas :)

•madwheeler—1/10•

no. just no. these two actively dislike each other lmao. max is perpetually annoyed by mike’s existence and mike thinks max is like, the worst. they couldn’t even do enemies to lovers because max would steal mike’s gf in a heartbeat and would probably rather eat glass than kiss michael wheeler. they only get 1 point because finn and sadie have a sweet friendship.

•eddsy—6/10•

they would’ve been cute tbh. and since it’s been discovered that chrissy is actually 18 instead of 16, it’s not a weird one either. when i thought she was 16 i was put off, but now i’m sort of neutral on it. that scene in the woods was very sweet and her and eddie totally could have had the whole popular cheerleader gf/metalhead nerdy bf thing going on. however, it was only one episode they were in together and the ship was never one i was like ‘oh my god i love this’ so. i will say that grace van dien does not deserve the hate she gets for shipping them, especially when joseph quinn gets none of it for the same thing. other than that, it’s not massively awesome but it’s pretty cute.

•willel—0/10•

if you ship this, seek help. they are siblings.

•henclair—4/10•

they could be cute ig, but i just see them as besties. add in the fact that lumax is one of my fav ships and dustin and suzie are super cute and this ship is just sort of meh to me.

•duzie—7/10•

very sweet. nerd gf/geek bf. ‘never-ending story’ was a cultural reset and they’re both icons for it. honestly, not a ship that rocked my world but they are super cute so. 7 points.

•rockie—7/10•

at this point i just want robin to have a gf. just let maya hawke kiss a woman on this show. at first, i was super excited for these 2, but then i saw the way miss buckley looked at nancy wheeler and i was like ‘vickie who?’ (i see you duffer brothers). also, vickie’s whole character felt like a diversity box tick. like she had no originality whatsoever, they just made her a carbon copy of robin which pissed me off. however, i see the potential. i would not be unhappy if they had a fleshed out, well-developed relationship in s5. especially since vickie, a bi girl, is being played by amybeth mcnulty, a bi queen.

•steddie—5/10•

ok. so. i don’t hate this ship. i really don’t. in fact, i’ve written them in some of my ronance fics. i think they could’ve been cute. however. they hype for these two was so overdone and the way people treated them in comparison to more fleshed out, developed dynamics like ronance was really annoying. especially because the majority of steddie shippers are straight women who then deny that ronance could ever happen. the ship itself was ok, but if i’m being realistic, they didn’t have that many scenes together and the fandom of this ship ruined it for me. the fact that the majority of fics in the ronance tag on ao3 are steddie with background ronance really grinds my fucking gears, and the amount of people who are fetishising steddie because they’re both attractive men is just so fucking irritating. overall, not a bad ship but a fairly toxic fandom (not all of you, of course—chill steddie shippers are cool, but some of y’all, jesus christ)

•harringrove—1/10•

awful, awful ship. no. don’t ship steve with the racist abuser just because they’re both semi-attractive white men. only gets a point because of joe keery’s fruity (not assuming his sexuality, just joking about his actions) behaviour towards dacre montgomery.

•stobin—0/10•

robin buckley. is. a LESBIAN. she’s GAY. SHE LIKES WOMEN AND WOMEN ONLY. if you ship these two romantically, i can only assume you’re a homophobic asshole who deserves sand thrown in their eyes. unapologetically, if you ship steve and robin as a couple, i hope you slip in the shower, motherfucker.

•stonathan—2/10•

i mean, it’s not the worst??? but again, i think it’s people shipping them just because they’re two white men who talked to each other. like, did y’all forget that steve literally called jonathan a slur? and that they tried to beat the shit out of each other? i don’t hate it the way i hate harringrove, but it’s so so unlikely and i’d be so puzzled if it ever was even hinted at.

•murray/alexei—6/10•

these two would’ve been cute. and i do think murray is gay, and probably did have a little thing for alexei. i don’t know about alexei but they were definitely cute friends. and i was so betrayed and upset by his death. a fairly good ship, no complaints from me.

and finally…

•ronance—1284028/10😌🥹😍•

the best ship. for nancy, for robin, for the show, for ever. they mean the world to me. they are the world to me. if i had one wish, it would be for ronance to be canon. they make me so fucking emotional because i want what they have. as someone who so heavily relates to robin (chaotic lonely lesbian who is desperate for love but feels she may never be loved as much as she loves, possibly autistic and feels destined to be an annoyance to those around her) i want a nancy. i want to be loved in my entirety. and those two, they get each other. sure, robin irritated nancy at first and they didn’t get on, but they grew. nancy, who’s never had anyone listen to her and believe in her with such intent, finds robin, who is more than willing to, who thinks ‘nancy’s a genius’ and would follow her anywhere. robin, who thinks all she can ever be is helpless and annoying, finds nancy, who trusts her with her life, who picks her and picks her and keeps picking her, who thinks she’s just as smart as she actually is, who understands her needs and her vulnerabilities and validates her, tells her ‘it’s ok’ and ‘you got this’. these two work in a way no other ship does and they are so undeniably soulmates. they need each other. they want each other. they deserve each other. there’s a reason i write about them so much—holy shit honestly i love them so fucking much.

anyways, that got a lot longer than i thought it would! i hope you guys enjoyed my ramblings haha :)