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orionsangel86 · 8 months

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I have been doing this meta analysis thing for a long time now and one thing that I have always tried to make clear in meta analysis is that for it to be taken seriously you must keep your personal biases out of it. You must come at it as objective as possible.

Rant under the cut

Its not always easy to do when you are dealing with difficult topics, or shining unfavourable lights on characters you love, or coming to conclusions that you werent expecting (recent meta discussions about Morpheus in the Sandman comics would fall into these categories).

What meta analysis should never be used for is to back up ship wars or specifically to shame fandoms for liking certain characters. If the meta isnt providing valid evidence to support the interpretations, and instead has fallen into name calling and mockery of fandom, its no longer valid meta.

I got this ALL the time in SPN fandom. Destiel was a huge fandom but as meta writers we stuck with what we were given by the source material and interpreted it with valid evidence. We understood that multiple interpretations were possible but we made sure that whatever we were analysing made sense and had some source backing. This wasnt always the case because meta writers are not a monolith, but the bigger blogs who wrote meta frequently at least understood this and would not be stretching to support their own claims if canon didnt back it up. Now no one is perfect of course, but the point is, proper meta writers understand that where they make a claim or interpretation of the source material, they have to site examples and evidence to back up their claims and also take into consideration any evidence to the contrary.

The people who hated destiel and made that their entire personalities didnt do that so much. I read a lot of their meta out of curiosity and every time I was baffled by where they were getting their claims. 'Destiel is necrophilia" was a big one which canon disproved almost straight away in season 5. "Destiel is rape" was another because Cas was using Jimmy as a vessel and yet canon confirmed Jimmy died at the end of season 4. Cas' body was remade by God in season 5 and has remained his own ever since. These are just two of the ridiculous examples supposed "meta writers" among the destiel hater communities would come up with and still use today.

I find it extremely infuriating when I see character/ship hate loosely disguised as meta analysis. I can give people the benefit of the doubt a lot of the time, as fandoms are usually highly emotional spaces, but when there is zero canon evidence to support the claims, when connections are being made on the absolute thinnest of threads, and when far more obvious interpretations are being clearly ignored to support certain viewpoints in such a stunningly obvious case of confirmation bias I have to throw in the towel and stop taking said meta seriously.

One thing I have loved about Sandman fandom so far is the meta. It's such a rich text to analyse, and the show adds an entirely new level to it which makes it all the more enjoyable. I've made no secret of my support for Dreamling and I wrote a very long meta series on Dreamling and how the show in particular uses certain tropes, symbolism, visual storytelling cues, and music, to name a few, to overload a 25 minute sequence with queer coding. It is completely understandable to me why anyone going into the show even without thinking about shipping, would feel like Dreamling hit them like a brick to the face. The creators weren't subtle with it.

Its also totally valid to find romantic interpretations of other pairings within the Sandman. I personally think Morpheus x Johanna was laid on pretty thickly. Morpheus x Lucienne is equally an interesting ship to analyse. But heres the thing, if you ship these other ships and are frustrated that Dreamling has "taken over" thats valid. I get it. I would like more focus on the other characters too. I would particularly like to talk about Lucienne x Gault and have a meta piece in progress about them.

Whats not okay however is for other shippers and people frustrated with Dreamling to go the way of the Destiel antis. Dont make shit up that has no basis in canon just because you need some moral high ground to shit all over the ship you hate. Don't call fans that see Dreamling "deluded" for seeing it. They aren't deluded. It's right there in the subtext. Dont resort to name calling and "gotchas" and use inflammatory language to bait people. And please, I'm begging you, stop claiming that people who ship Dreamling are somehow all overly fragile white racists. You're wrong.

The racism discussions about Hob's past have their place, but these things ARE being discussed, if anything I feel this fandom has done a far better job of handling the issues of slavery than another popular fandom has (looking at you OFMD). No one is forgiving Hob for his slaver past. But you have to acknowledge that the entire point of the story in The Sandman is about change, and growth, and how we can become better people. As another excellent short meta post stated recently "we are more than the sum of our transgressions". The Sandman is all about the shades of grey. No one is morally righteous, but most characters are not completely morally bankrupt either.

Hob Gadling is a controversial character who is often misunderstood by fandom but anyone with proper critical thinking skills and a decent understanding of what meta analysis is, should understand that Hob is a metaphor for humanity first and foremost. He is the average everyman from the perspective of an Englishman and therefore above all else to understand Hob you have to look to England, to Englands history, and to its current status in the world. A lot of blood on its hands yes, but also at least a century of trying to make up for it, a leader in the world in human rights and trying to do better. I have to believe that about this country, so I believe it about Hob too. Whilst I'm not interesting in getting into huge geopolitical debates about England, I hope that we can all agree that the average Englishman today is not a blood thirsty evil slaver/rapist/murderer or whatever else ive seen people accuse Hob of being even in his modern era.

We can argue the faults of the show downplaying slavery for sure. Its a valid criticsm. We can argue that not enough time was given in the show to show that Hob had changed and regretted his former actions. We can critique these things based on what the show has and has not told us, and also pepper in information provided in the comics and what we know about future Hob panels as well.

But when it comes to the blank spaces in between frames, in between cut screens, we can do whatever we like. Because that is where meta analysis ends and fanfiction begins. You wanna write about Hob joining the abolitionist movement and fighting hard to end slavery? You can. You wanna write about him ignoring Dreams advice and continuing to be a brutal slaver right up until slavery was ended in England sure, you go for it. But don't call either of these "headcanons" meta analysis.

Dont use meta analysis as a cover to shit on fandom. The minute you resort to name calling and mockery its no longer meta. No matter how frustrated or upset you are with the current fandom situation. There is always space to criticise fandom. But ask yourself what your end goal is here? What are you trying to achieve? Is it truly because you are on a righteous path to end fandom racism? Or do you just really hate a popular ship and want people to stop shipping it? If it's the former, then focus on that, ask what solutions we can put in place? Where we can truly tackle it on a larger scale, raising awareness of things that people may not realise are racist but are common tropes in fandom (like how making female characters all mothers or sassy gay best friends is misogynistic or how certain stereotypes in fantasy creatures are anti semitic) but if its the latter, then its disingenuous to use racism in fandom as a shield to hide your ship hate. It reduces an important topic to something shallow and irrelevant.

In ending this rant I will just say this. I'm not interested in engaging further on this topic. I'm legit gonna start blocking if anyone attempts to twist my words here. The civil discussions on this matter ended when people started name calling and flinging around accusations without basis. I am more than happy to engage separately in ways to improve fandom spaces for poc, because thats important, but ship hating has no place in that discussion. Drop that aspect, and there'll be less resistance in these topics.

#rant #fandom discourse #the hob gadling matter

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dotthings · 1 month

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Some thoughts about Jensen Ackles, from the pov of a Dean/Jensen fan who is also a Cas/Misha fan and a Destiel shipper, TFW fan, and fan of found family on SPN. How he gets his arms pulled off between different aisles of the fandom, on multiple things, and how Jensen loves SPN.

One side has some people who accuse him of being phobic, while they ignore all his allyship, his support, and times he’s supported their view of the characters and the show, while another side has some people who…also accuse him of being phobic but pretend they aren’t, while they blame the other side and spew rhetoric about a false sense of disgust and hatred they invented and assigned to Jensen. His own lane even has some people who deploy biphobic rhetoric, claiming it’s to defend Jensen’s honor. They don’t seem to care that has little connection to the actual full breadth and depth of his viewpoints on the subject.

One side resents him if he speaks about his love of the brothers and touchstones that as the center of the show, while another side resents him if he shows any support for found family. Particularly if it’s Cas, then it’s accusations of “pandering.”

Jensen loves the brothers, Jensen also loves found family. Jensen put “family don’t end with blood” on his charity auction shirt revival-themed doodles. Not “Sam and Dean nobody else.”

And it’s always one lane or the other going “Jensen better do this” and “Jensen better do that.” Dance, monkey. Dance.

One side will rip him to pieces if he shows too much support for bi Dean and Destiel, another side will rip him to pieces if he doesn’t show enough support. Jensen’s whole-hearted support for queer Cas gets completely lost in all this noise.

Jensen walks a tightrope over a moat of razor wire and crocodiles, unable to speak clearly, while he tries to show in every way he can that he supports people who see bi Dean and who see Destiel. He pads his warm words about Dean and Cas’s relationship with prevarications and disclaimers, and that doesn’t mean what some people think. If you pay close attention to his words, it’s not a shutdown or an expression of his own dislike or aversion. He may in part be reconciling his own long-standing and sincere appreciation of the kindred spirits, brother-like, best friends dynamic of Dean and Cas, a relationship he is fond of and he played for 12 seasons, mixed with his own supportiveness about the concept of Dean being bi and mutually acknowledged canon Destiel. But he doesn’t want to say anything until the deal’s done and he can stand on top of it free and clear. He’s signaling as much support as he can, as much warmth as he can, without tipping his hand all the way.

Jensen held Misha’s cape for the love confession. He was openly enthusiastic about the episode and that scene. Jensen is not “against” anything, except maybe the hate. Including hate that denigrated and erased Jensen’s own superb performance and diminished and erased Dean’s pov and feelings and roiling and strong emotions, including Dean sobbing on the floor.

Jensen, who stuck up for everyone at SPN, fellow cast members, crew. Jensen who shows his interest in and love and respect for other characters and various relationships. Jensen who very clearly thinks holistically about the story and the show.

He sticks up for everyone, yet didn’t have room to breathe at the end of spn’s run to stick up for Dean. He had to fight with an EP for the right to even have Dean die standing on his feet, couldn’t get more than that, and was told “take or leave it” in the writers’ room about the ending. Which he had misgivings on. But reconciled with it eventually. Also before it was filmed, for a while, he thought it would be much better than it turned out to be after production shutdowns in March 2020 allowed for corporate to come in and derail the original full plans for the ending.

Jensen’s disappointment about Dean is self-evident, it’s also self-evident he’s not just disappointed about that. Dean, Cas, found family, all matter to him, not “just the brothers.”

Maybe Jensen didn’t want conflict and confrontation as the show came to an end. He loves SPN a lot. So he didn’t push the issue hard on Dean’s behalf. Maybe Jensen decided it was better to bide his time rather than confront.

And after all, before the series finale was even wrapped, he was already making his own plans, forming his own production company and contemplating SPN revival and spinoffs, and then Jensen wound up as THEE producer of the SPN universe—prequels, revivals, spinoffs and all.

For the prequel, he worked with creatives to find a way to start repairing the damage done in Dean’s ending, and opened up the story to hope, to possibilities, to start repairing damage done on other things as well. And he got hate from some in the lane that was supposed to love and respect both J’s the most, he got blamed for caring, for having agency, for caring about Dean, for caring about the SPN universe, for caring about the story. He got blamed for making a TV show and got blamed for asserting himself about Dean in the way he’d decided was best for him, the way he preferred to deal with it.

Jensen cares in a very wide way. Like Dean, his heart is very big. He doesn’t hate the way certain antis keep claiming he hates. He’s also empathetic, open-minded, curious, intelligent, he listens, and his pov evolves, which is true of fans too. (It’s not any kind of an insult to point out that he’s capable of understanding and learning and growing—it’s nothing I don’t apply for myself, and don’t try to do myself—and Jensen himself has talked about the importance of these things. It’s how many people do, it’s how it should be.)

Jensen ushered in a prequel that was about found family as well as tying back to the brothers and their family, but very much linked to Dean’s pov and Dean’s story. At no point did he abandon his love for the brothers. It’s that this isn’t the only thing that matters to him. He’s going to usher in a revival that is about Sam and Dean and their family. And maybe get some more healing for himself (and for fans who care about Dean) on Dean’s story, as well as some other things.

“I love this character, I love the story of these two brothers and I love what it stands for and I love the world that they live in and the family that they have acquired through their years. There’s so much love and attachment to that show. There’s a reason that it went 15 years.” —Jensen Ackles on the Inside of you podcast, January 18, 2022

#Jensen Ackles #Dean Winchester #family don't end with blood

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sailorsally · 4 months

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Hi! Can you explain the part where cockles lived together when they were shooting spn? Where does that come from? I thought it was just an old rumor but apparently it's real????

Hi anon! Im unfortunately the worst person to ask for any evidence for anything because I have ADHD and am in stage of constant memory fog but I'll try my best here!

I think the first time I heard about Cockles living together it was in a post by @livebloggingmydecentintomadness. I tried looking for the post but couldn't find it (hi tumblr fix your search!!) but it was basically talking about how some fans got their hand on a utility bill in both Jensen & Misha's name for a Vancouver apartment. I don't know if there were ever photos of the said bill, I know people tried not to have it circulate too much, I assume bc that would have doxxed them both. This was around 2017-2018 I think?

I also believe that during one of the panels during that time period Misha said Vicky helped him recently move in with a "model friend" and well, we all know who his model friend is.

I think it was after Misha's poetry book was released in 2021 that it became evident the split between Misha & Vicky had happened a while ago and around the time Vicky helped him move in with a friend.

This all happened before my time aka 2020. What I personally was here for was the blankygate of 2021 when Misha sent out this text:

Which kind of solidified everyone's belief that Misha and Jensen lived together before pandemic.

For me personally there are other things that support this. Things like Misha saying Jensen is neat. You would never say something like this about someone you have not shared your personal space with! Or that Misha would pick Jensen (out of him and Jared) because Jensen is handy around the house and likes to fix things! Oh and sharing clothes of course!

I think this is all I've got for ya, anon. Here's a handy run doen what these two were up to during the period they lived together. I'm sure I'm missed some stuff, so people are very welcome to add to this.

Of course none of this is 100% proof of anything, especially not the romantic nature of their relationship. And nothing ever could be unless they state that yes they shared an apartment or yes they were/are together. Generally looking for "proof" in things like this is unrealistic, and makes me feel a bit uneasy (who am I? homophobic police??) and takes way from the real fun of rpf which is speculation.

#Cockles #They were roommates #Ask sally #Jenmish

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lol-jackles · 6 months

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Your opinion on a thought I had over the weekend. Would an actor sabotage his own project to provide evidence to TPTB that the og show formula is what needs to be on air?

It still baffles me to this day that Jensen thought the prequel turned sequel AU concept of The Winchesters and the story framework of the 13 episodes would be a successful endeavor.

There was no effort put into the creation or marketing, especially by him, Robbie, Danneel or CMP production company. The execution was a small step up from a high school film project. The cast was inexperienced and apparently very inexpensive.

Jensen very quickly (even prior to the pilot airing) was pushing a reboot/revival with both Sam and Dean back on screen, and pushing it with more vigor and gusto than the TW project in production. It’s like he used the prequel/sequel project to drum up interest and excitement for a Sam/Dean reboot and to show WB execs why Supernatural (and J2) just needed a break.

Was this Jensen’s plan all along? Is that even plausible?

Thank you for your blog. I am a dedicated reader.

No. TV shows have 94% failure rates before syndication, so Jensen doesn't need to actively sabotage anything, the odds are always against you in Hollywood where even great tv shows get cancelled after 1 season and largely forgotten.

We were all baffled, Anon, it's what brought different SPN factions together in agreement and achieved temporary peace. Before that, nothing in the SPN fandom brings momentary peace than being united in fans’ hatred for the Buck-Lemming writing duo.

Jensen and Danneel probably expected Robbie Thompson to act like Eric Kripke 2.0 and manage everything for them. Where as Robbie expected Jensen and Danneel to pull their own weight. But there was no communication on expectations.

I think Jensen pushing a reboot/revival with both Sam and Dean back on screen prior to The Winchester airing was because:

The Winchesters was filming and will air so as far as Jensen was concerned, his work was done and he can focus on other things.

Jensen knew TW wasn't immediately accepted by at least half of the SPN fandom and tried to win them back with a promise of a Sam & Dean-focused SPN revival.

He wanted to keep SPN's money train running at conventions by giving rabid fans hope that SPN will return.

Jensen, my unasked advice to you is don’t go chasing waterfalls. The Winchesters was a Shein version of an AU fanfic.

WB executives cancelled SPN because they didn't trust a Jared-less SPN. Hollywood doesn't believe in breaks or letting a franchise "rest" unless it's losing money. The industry waits for nobody.

Honestly, that sounds too much like AAs/Hellers saying we got to watch The Winchesters so that we can get the SPN reboot/revival/movie. That's like telling a vegan," I like steak, so you need to like steak so that we get more steak.". We're going to keep getting steaks regardless of vegans.

#the winchesters

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bonearenaofmyskull · 5 months

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I am still watching s3 so maybe I am a fool to ask this question but I don't wanna be a delulu when it comes to m/m ships, that too from 2013-15 but like was Will truly like truly jealous of Bedelia 🫠 I saw in Reddit that he was but then I saw other posts saying he's not and that he only wanted her to pay the price . So like is hannigraham one sided canon ? I am fine with that too . I am used to it after spn finale. 😭

I'm not on Reddit so I couldn't speak to what's being said there. I'm barely on here any more, frankly. I couldn't begin to respond to assertions that I'd only be imagining what their logic and evidence is, especially when my memory of all the details is growing dim.

But moreover these Hannigram questions from Reddit I keep hearing about are all dead horses that the meta writers who were around #BackInMyDay have beaten enough to prompt a social worker to climb out of them.

I'm happy to hear that Reddit has a living community of Hannibal fans who are actively debating their interpretations of the show, and that the show is growing new sets of fans to immerse themselves into these interpretations and debates. And if that's so, then if there are those who have taken up the mantle to argue against those things that I believe, then I'm sure there are those who can and have and will take up the mantle to argue for the things I believe as well.

If you want to become one of those people but feel like you need to do a lot of research to get to the point where you're ready, here are the blogs that were active writing meta in my day. Many of them are inactive or have moved on to other things, but I'm sure you can find a wealth of knowledge in their "hannibal meta" tags, or just by looking around their blogs for how they've tagged their own work:

@existingcharactersdiehorribly

@22drunkb

@genufa

@the-winnowing-wind

@wellntruly

@after-the-ellipsis

Please understand I'm not sending you to their inboxes per se, but to the wealth of work that they've already produced. If they still want to field questions about Hannibal or Hannigram, I'm sure they can let you know, here or elsewhere. Please just be polite: I have gotten a great deal of very demanding and entitled messages of late, whether people are coming from Reddit or elsewhere, but that's not the social norm on Tumblr and never has been to my knowledge: much like AO3, people will make updates when the spirit moves them, not on demand.

#bear answers #hannibal #hannibal meta #if i wanted to answer questions on reddit #i would get on reddit

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collarbjt · 7 days

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Jared acted ‘Dean forester’ in Gilmore girls,

So I’m wondering if he’s being in Supernatural universe.(maybe it’s an old, iterative question but I’m curious now)

If Dean Forester And Dean Winchester met, could they be friends?

In my thought, Sam and Dean Forester can be friends(they are also doppelgänger lol) but with Dean?? Nahh….

Maybe the only plot that make sense is :

Dean forester enjoyed his applepie life in university with his lovely girlfriend, but one day, a case caused by the Things occurred so Sam and Dean Winchesters showed up to solve the case. The Things, I prefer to vampire for this case ☺️.

Because the victim who affected by vamp is one of his friend group’s member(I really wanna keep Dean Forester’s girlfriend be safe, unlike our Sammy’s girlfriends…), Sam and Dean will investigate the whole group members and talk to Dean Forester too.

After they saw him, they will be surprised and suspicious about him because he’s just looks like Sam so much-ofc they are both Jared lol-but after splash the holy water into his face, silver knife burning test, and some other processes to check he’s not a shapeshifter or doppelgänger, they will release him.

Maybe Dean might feel nostalgic about his little bro’s youth and university life, while Sam remains somewhat suspicious, but there’s no evidence so they’ll focus on the current vamp case.

But what-if)

Dean Forester is a demon that can crossed the universes to parasitize as a character in particular universe, and he is confused btw two hollywood tv shows’ universes-Gilmore and SPN, bc the male main characters have same first name-Dean.

So at first, he planned to settle down in Gilmore universe and pretend to be Dean Forester after kill him. But bc of confusion, he settled to the wrong place-SPN world and used ‘Dean Forester’s name in the wrong world.

Therefore he twist the SPN world’s rules and a lot of Things are generated by his existence, and Winchesters know why the Things population is exponentially growth, and they’ll find the main problem is the demon parasitizing on universe.

After some stories, they will kill the demon but it’s a type of laplace’s demon, which can be killed or died, so they asked Cas or Crowley to open the gate to the other universe, and…ofc in SPN world, Winchester bros will successfully done their work always, and perhaps the demon itself wants to go to the right place so it will be gone and then case solved.

After that, well, they’ll drink some beer together and do another job. Heaven and hell are returned into the normal, included the human world.

I’m just starting what-if Dean and Dean met but at the end, the story expands to the multiverse lol😅

#spn #samdean #supernatural #sam winchester #dean winchester #dean forester #gilmore girls #fanfiction #crossover #doppelganger #vampire #multiverse #spn fanfic #demon #what if #laplace demon #jared padalecki #supernatural fanfiction

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quietwingsinthesky · 9 months

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Do you ever think about the similarities between Dean and Lucifer? Like, they're both obsessed with Sam. They both feel irrationally possessive over him. They both see him more as a thing they own than his own person.

I'm just... I think about it a lot.

Yes yes yes. Dean & Lucifer scrapping over Sam like he’s a piece of meat, my beloved. And I mean, is there even a better option for him between the two? Not that he’s really going to get a choice <3 but on the one hand, Dean needs to keep him docile and isolated from everyone forever just in case they give Sam too many ideas about finding another life. And on the other, Lucifer really really wants to keep Sam in a little birdcage to admire and occasionally take him out to squeeze him until he sings or to let him hop around with Jack until Lucifer is done letting them have time together.

And obviously they hate each other for everything the other has that they don’t. Dean irrationally being jealous of the hundreds of years more Sam has spent with Lucifer than him. Lucifer being jealous that Sam always picks Dean over him when he’s choosing who to run back to.

Can I get dark for a moment? Real quick, I promise. Cw in these next two paragraphs for noncon: but oh my god, Sam finally breaking down to Dean about what happened in the Cage and Dean nodding along, offering sympathies, while what’s whirring in his head is how dare the devil get a hand on Sam before Dean even got a taste. And this constantly buzzing in his head, turning to obsession, thinking all the time about Lucifer touching Sam, making Sam his, (did Sam want it? No. But it happened. And maybe when Sam’s confessing to the whole awful thing, he’s apologizing to Dean, too, because at some point he broke and begged Lucifer for it. And to Sam, he’s apologizing for weakness, but to Dean, it sounds an awful lot like apologizing for wanting it <3) and what I’m saying is eventually Dean has had enough, can’t stand it, and maybe the tipping point is one of their fights, one of those times Sam tries to put distance between them and get away and Dean can’t let him, so. You know. He get his teeth into the same wounds Lucifer made until he’s the one Sam is begging for mercy from.

And then when Lucifer comes back and sees that someone has been messing with his toy while Sam was topside… 😩 Sam getting yanked back and forth as they fight over something he doesn’t even want to give. Dean takes what’s Lucifer’s, and when Lucifer finds out, he dirties up what’s Dean’s, and when Dean sees that, he corners Sam to fix it, and on and on and on. Awful times all around. Love when Sam suffers, it is so fun for me.

Ahem. So. You know. Normal thoughts about the three of them. Sorry if that’s not what you came here hoping for 😅

(Genuinely my favorite thing about this fandom is being able to hold a dozen different interpretations of each character in my head and be able to find supporting evidence for any of them. Dean cares about Sam and regrets whenever he violates his autonomy AND Dean will do anything in his power to keep Sam close, not letting him die or find a life outside of Dean. Lucifer is incredibly respectful (for an angel) of Sam’s consent and waits for Sam to come to him AND Lucifer does need to own Sam body and soul and doesn’t care that much about how he gets it, only that he does and Sam submits it him eventually. I love this, it’s brilliant. Say what you will about spn’s inconsistent writing, but it leaves so much room to play around <3)

#tw noncon #spn #ask #lucifer spn #sam winchester #samifer #dean winchester #play with me in this space #wincest #tw incest

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blue-chimera · 5 months

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Folks talk a lot about SPN being subject to network TV's Standards & Practices. But I think an even bigger challenge was the limited time & budget, along with a really challenging episode & season structure. Excerpts from a great interview with Robbie Thompson about the challenges of a 23-episode season & a procedural format (edited & condensed for readability/full interview here: Behind the Scenes of Supernatural with Robbie Thompson)* — and some of my own thoughts on the impact, below.

Robbie: This isn’t a criticism, but it’s 42 minutes & a procedural show. There’s a case, and a lot of elements of that take up a lot of real estate in the script. Typically, if you wanted to hand in a script that wouldn’t get too heavily noted, you'd keep it to 38, 39 pages. And at least 20-30 pages of that is gonna end up being the blah blah blah of the case.

Robbie: The showrunners say, "This is what we’re thinking for this season," and usually it was built around a pivot point — the midseason finale. You wanna end midseason on some kind of cliffhanger & then pick it up & go this way. Then, with the general guidelines in place (the "destinations" on the "roadtrip" agreed upon), everyone pitches at the same time. So, if this was the writers’ room, you [gestures] are writing the 1st episode, you the 2nd, you the 3rd & 4th & 5th & 6th. So we’re all writing simultaneously, and sometimes it will be oh, we love that character, can we put him in your episode? And then all of a sudden those things start to kind of domino, plot-wise.

Interviewer: They’re like puzzle pieces: every time you move one, you knock the others out of place...

Robbie: And it’s a really tricky thing when you’re doing something that has 23 episodes. I’m jealous of Game of Thrones’ budget, but I’m also jealous of the episode order. My dream for Supernatural was, can we just do True Detective, just one case, and live & breathe that case. That would be fun, but in a 23 order, you just can’t do it. So, in terms of “where the story takes you,” I would never want to answer on a showrunner’s behalf, [but] I’ll just provide the context that sometimes these decisions are not so clean-cut or as narrative-based as one might think. It’s a very tough job to manage a bunch of stories & writers & production & editorial all at the same time, and then sometimes shit happens & you have to make changes on the fly.

I was just thinking about this in the context of certain criticisms of the show — especially that they didn't develop X or Y plotline enough (one example I've talked about before is Dean's alcoholism). And obviously you can't just handwave those criticisms away with "oh, but the time constraints," but I do think that those constraints often forced the creative team to be more understated than they might've preferred. And sometimes, this was a good thing — or even a great thing — and lent itself to an unusual degree of subtlety. But sometimes it meant leaving too much ambiguity, dropping threads entirely, or seeming to take certain plot developments too lightly.

I know we need to analyze and critique (and appreciate) the show as we have it, not as we imagine it might've been "if only" (the kind of supposition you could never prove), but I do think that understanding the above tends to increase a person's willingness to have patience with the show, or to accept that the substitution of a few lines, an anguished look, and/or a case-character-parallel for a whole scene directly exploring something with the impacted protagonist isn't necessarily evidence that the writers didn't care (and/or didn't want us to care) about something.

To circle back to Dean's drinking: The writers had wanted a story arc devoted to it (secondhand reports suggest they wanted to do it in season 8), but it just didn't end up working out. But then we roll around to the Mark of Cain in season 9 and (between the writers & directors & Jensen's acting choices) we get a great analogy for alcoholism in the myth-arc, instead. There are a lot of themes that are only ever explored symbolically. And you can see that as a good thing or a bad thing, but it's interesting, at least, to think about how real-world constraints may have pushed them in these directions.

(As an aside, Richard Speight, Jr., & Rob Benedict also talk about this sort of thing on several segments of the Supernatural Then and Now podcast — about how often the writers or directors would end up having to cut scenes & shots & entire plotlines that they felt were important just because of a lack of time, and a common theme from "behind the scenes" is that, compared to other similar shows, SPN did a remarkable amount with a remarkably tight budget & vanishingly little time.)

*Spoilers galore for S11:E20 "Don't Call Me Shurley" around the mid-point of that link. If you're interested in the rest of the piece, you can safely search for "procedural" & read the surrounding paragraphs or "a season of network TV" & read from there on.

#spn meta #commentary #fandom discourse #fangasm #lynn s. zubernis #spn #supernatural then and now #s.t.a.n.#robbie thompson #richard speight jr #rob benedict #rob #rich #rob & rich

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wigglebox · 2 years

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okay gonna type this out b4 the meds kick in and i’m pulled down into the emotional sadness of 1x04 for spnwin

but like, i know i was like ‘omg fucking....john/carlos???’ last night but also with mary/latika lmao but like for real

i already started seeing some ‘but i don’t want the homophobic man to be queer’

and i just wanna say something? there’s no canonical evidence that john was homophobic. that can be your headcanon, your take on his character, whatever, but in terms of the actual TV show there’s no canonical proof that he was. i know someone’s going to mention that journal thing but that’s so quasi-canon to me and not really viewed at as actual canon, and also it has contradicting canon in itself from the show so i don’t count that.

so when you see things like ‘john winchester is homophobic’ just understand that it’s a reading and not fact.

second of all, the reason why i love 1x04 so much is that we are seeing the ramifications of

1) the culture of the time of young men, and in john’s case way too young, going into something as horrific as the Vietnam War was [on all sides] and witnessing [and in some cases participating in particularly] horrifying things

2) this mindset of kinda toxic masculinity in the sense that men, and especially in this time frame, are expected to suck it up. his raised voice at carlos regarding therapy sessions reminded me of that, but also we have to keep in mind that john was on edge the entire episode and clearly quick to anger. but again, it’s 1972, and john’s a young adult, white male, in the midwest, veteran. i can see how he’s resistant to talking to people about his problems, especially if he just feels no better doing so [a common misconception that just one session of therapy and you’ll start to feel better], therefore it’s easy to associate therapy with feeling like shit and then avoiding it all together.

and you combine john’s mental health issues, bc clearly he has PTSD [*note, not everyone with PTSD is angry, violent, or volitile. but SOME are. and clearly john is one of them, likely backed up by other issues throughout his childhood with the father issue] — with this queer...well i was going to say coding but that look he gave carlos and some other implications in this episode feels a little stronger than that lol — then you get an interesting situation.

i think it’s important for us to not forget the nuance that SPN often undertook, and that the team at the helm of this show also aren’t unfamiliar with. this was literally the strongest episode so far, and i know usually episodes get stronger as seasons go on, but this was particularly strong.

because — the nuance here is that not all queer people are good, kind, nice, whatever. queer people can be abusers, queer people can have anger issues, queer people can shun treatment for issues [with understandable reasons] and leave things to fester —

queer people sometimes don’t come out the otherside of things in a good way.

and i think it’s also important to have characters like that.

*NOW please understand i’m not saying to revert back to Hollywood in the... idk 40s 50s and 60s? even 70s i guess. but there was really a run in movies where queer people were the predators the villains the — blahblahblah. essentially demonizing us in film. and then when Hollywood got tired of doing that to us, they’d just punish us and never give our characters a happy ending.

But, much like with many things in storytelling, it honestly depends on the story and imo, the time period in which you’re telling it.

Like i already said, the team at the helm of this show already know and understand’s SPN nuance and coding abilities.

so to me, having a young adult, white male, who witnessed a horrifying tragedy [one of many he probably experienced but this one in particular], who doesn’t feel like he can get help, doesn’t trust the process, in the early 70s, who is about to be thrown into the ringer [he’s actually in it already] with cosmic forces, who’s literally facing down a violent god in this episode — who perhaps may be queer.

this isn’t a show demonizing someone being queer and also being a neglectful and manipulative and emotionally, physically abusive father — it’s just the fact that sometimes, queer people can in fact be neglectful, manipulative, and emotionally/physically abusive parents in the future.

and since it’s fiction we got cosmic forces mixed into the salad plot bowl as well.

honestly i’m really happy that they already showed that john’s issues do not just happen upon him when mary dies. that he’s always had this simmering anger.

anger is a secondary emotion brought on by frustration, confusion, annoyance, fear, and all of that fun stuff.

the winchesters isn’t going to be a lighthearted happy comedy. we know where john winds up.

making him a more dynamic character in spn canon is fascinating, and since we already know where the ride is going to end up, no problem in encouraging that dynamic character building [while also wondering ‘what if’ a lot of the time like myself lol]

#idk if any of this made sense #i wasj ust going to talk about queer john but i feel like i kinda went off the rails #this is what happens when i write before meds kick in #spnwin #spnwin spoilers #spnwin meta #i guess? is this meta?#idk #0104 #long post

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dotthings · 23 days

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After rewatching 4.19 Jump the Shark, here's some thoughts on hunting, the making of personal connections, and what SPN is about.

As often happens with SPN, the characters themselves play out ruminations on these themes. I barely even have to write commentary.

DEAN What the hell was that? SAM What? DEAN 'Hunting is life. You can't have connections.' Dad gave you that exact same speech, remember? It was just before you ditched us for Stanford. You hated Dad for saying that stuff, and now you're quoting him? SAM Yeah, well, turns out Dad was right. DEAN Since when? SAM Since always. Dean, when I look at Adam, you know what I see? DEAN A normal kid. SAM No. Meat. Because the demons and monsters out there, that's all he is. I hated Dad for a long time. I did. But now I think I understand. So we didn't have a dog and a white picket fence. So what? Dad did right by us. He taught us how to protect ourselves. Adam deserves the same.

Notice how this severe idea that all they can have is this, nothing else, no friends (even friendships with other hunters is frowned upon, John was noticeably isolationist and distrustful and alienated his hunter friends who loved him, like Bobby), no love stories, nothing but the hunt, comes right from John's words.

Dean's shocked to hear it from Sam. In part because Sam always fought John about it and now Sam is quoting John, but in part it's because one of Dean's long arcs is rethinking a lot of John's ideas and finding his own identity outside of being John's shadow, or mimic.

In season 4, as Sam goes deeper and deeper under the influence of demon blood and Ruby's coaching, he goes colder and more ruthless and more remote, less like the Sam we know, and Dean notices more and more.

DEAN Listen to yourself, man. SAM You think I’m wrong? DEAN I think it's too late for us. This is our life. This is who we are, okay? And it's fine. I accept that. But with Adam, he's still got a chance, man. He can go to school. He could be a doctor.

Now it pulls back to Dean's resignation--but it's too late, the words are already out there with Dean questioning it. Too late for the audience not to notice.

While Dean doesn't expressly voice the idea that as hunters, maybe they don't have to sever all personal connections and turn off their hearts, it's self-evidently on Dean's mind. He doesn't see much hope for himself. That doesn't mean he isn't thinking it. And it's a very obvious part of the canon story for the run of the show.

As usual with SPN, two things can be true at once. Or there's a seed of truth but it's an incomplete truth. It is difficult to form and maintain connections in the hunting life, even with other hunters in the life. That doesn't mean Sam and Dean don't have any or can't have any. SPN self evidently shows they absolutely did, right along. Not just with each other.

Found family--the forging of connections, the human heart--is part of the life's blood of the story and always has been.

Dean in particular, throughout the series, has been adept at forming these connections and caring. He may at times try to shut himself away because it feels safer. The other people get less hurt. He'll get less hurt. But always he lets them in, he always cares.

It's easier with other hunters. People in the life with them, who understand that life.

John's narrow worldview of hunting, the ruthlessness, that's mirrored in Sam in this episode, and the idea that they can't have anyone else--isn't presented as the right answer.

Dean, as the series goes on, moves more and more into living the hunting life in a way that's by his own definitions, his own way, not his father's dictates. Despite the challenges of the hunting life. Dean makes his own rules.

We also see more instances of people in the hunting life who don't live by the extreme isolationist ideas of John Winchester. In fact, it turns out John was unusual and that hunters are sociable with each other, even if the life can be harsh and isolating. There's a hunting community. We only see glimpses of it early on because John kept Sam and Dean unusually isolated due to the circumstances of his particular quest, the YED.

But Sam and Dean are not their father. They forge their own path.

Most of all, SPN is a story about the connections that form between people--including the brothers, but not limited solely to the brothers.

SAM Dean...all this...it's not real. The dad Adam knew—he wasn't real. The things out there in the shadows—they are real. The world is coming to an end. That's real. Everything else is just part of the crap people tell themselves to get through the day.

You know what popped into my head when Sam said that? Dean's voice telling Cas in 4.22 -- You know what's real? People, families -- that's real.

Sam falls into a dark despairing mindset where all he can see is monsters and he is losing his heart. 4.19 ends on an ominous note

DEAN You know, I finally get why you and Dad butted heads so much. You two were practically the same person. SAM looks over. DEAN I mean, I worshipped the guy, you know? I dressed like him, I acted like him, I listen to the same music. But you were more like him than I will ever be. And I see that now. SAM I'll take that as a compliment. DEAN You take it any way you want.

Dean's coming to some realizations about his own hero-worship and imitation of his father, and seeing how he's not in fact, his father, no matter how much he fears it (or used to wish for it), and learning how much Sam is the one who is more like John than he is, despite Sam's lack of imitation and worship.

And without their friends who are like family, Sam and Dean aren't ever finding their way out of this thicket. They'd be lost, the world would be lost.

SPN is first and foremost about love.

#Dean meta #Sam meta #spn meta

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emiliosandozsequence · 7 months

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Your choice of SPN character has been hit with a curse of Endless Chatter. Write one run-on sentence of dialogue for them (until your own stream-of-consciousness runs out!).

Sam Winchester - s8 finale

A confession. I have a lot to confess, don't I. More than most anyway. I mean, how many people can say they started the apocalypse. Granted, I guess I stopped it too, but not before a lot of people had already lost their lives, lost loved ones. And that's on me; that's something I can't ever take back. I'm the one that chose to trust a demon and drink her blood. It doesn't matter the rest of the details that led up to the final decision to open the gates of Hell. If I'd just been smarter, it wouldn't have happened.

And that's what matters.

If I'd been smarter, I would've known Ruby was planning to free Lucifer. Hell, if I'd been smarter, I would've listened to Dean in the first place and not trusted her at all. I would've shot her with the Colt in that motel room in the first time she showed her black eyes to me in Cicero. But I didn't, and, again, that's what matters.

That isn't even all I've done.

I've failed the world and, indeed, those I love most more times than I can count. I might be able to forgive myself if they were able to forgive me, but it's evident from how things always get brought up that they haven't and, at this point, probably won't. I can hardly blame them because I understand where they're coming from. I can't say I would be too forgiving myself in their position. I mean...would I really have been able to forgive Dean if he'd gone off to college at eighteen and left me alone with Dad? Maybe that's why Dean's still so mad about that: not becaus I left for college, but because I left for college and he was still with Dad. He'd never admit it, though. He'd never say outloud that Dad was anything but a saint to him. He forgets I was there. He forgets I know differently. He forgets I experienced it too. And maybe that's why I can't forgive myself either. Why everything else I've ever done to wrong him - or that he's perceived as me wronging him - has hit both of us so hard: because I know what I did by leaving him behind with Dad. So that's my greatest sin, I guess. Every time I let Dean down. Every time I ran from him when I should have stayed. Every time I chose myself instead of him when he's chosen me every time he's ever had to make any choice ever. And, really, how can I forgive myself? How can I look myself in the mirror and grin at my reflection knowing all that? Knowing that it effects Dean enough that he still brings it up to this day? Could you? If I'm honest with myself, I don't know if I ever will. I don't know if I even can. But I suppose this can be a start. I can make this confession and finish these trials and do better every day to show Dean how sorry I am. How much I won't let this happen again. Maybe then he can heal. Maybe then he can forgive me too. And if I can't forgive myself, then, well, this is the next best thing.

#this is told from sam's pov & at his lowest point; that's why he blames himself for things that clearly aren't his fault #also interpret his talk of john how u want #but it IS meant to be read as One Specific Way #supernatural #spn #sam winchester #ask #anonymous #mine #my writing

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violetmina · 11 months

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Surprise! This is a random inspiration bomb! Write whatever the picture makes you think of!

Thank you so much for this kick of inspiration. And thank you for being so patient. I tried to stick to Boys TV canon. But I was watching Supernatural when I first seen this message. And despite my best efforts, it turned into this weird, long-winded blurb of what I think would happen if these two worlds crossed. Not to mention, I do adore Butcher...but I really miss my king.

Word count: 3,965

Warnings: The Boys and SPN level of violence and gore, swearing, mentions of alcohol.

"The fuck am I doin'?"

The question has rolled about in his skull many times tonight but this is the first Butcher has said it out loud. He stares down into the hole he kneels beside, oddly aware of the dirt edged under his fingernails, the gravel kissing into his knees. The little box resting at the bottom is inconspicuous but it - and its contents - leave him feeling a shade of embarrassment. He questions if he should snatch it back, go home, sleep off this drunken haze, and forget about the damn thing.

But he can't. He knows he can't. It's been itching and gnawing at the corners of his brain, latched onto his mind for weeks. Since Becca had left him standing dazed and confused on that bridge. Since he had nearly thrown in the towel thereafter, leaving his aunt's home blasted to hell and more battle scars on him, and MM, and poor lad Hughie. Since he'd shaken off the rejection and the fresh hurt and went to that bar. Fuming for a plan, craving for anyway to finally bring his girl home…and then that poncy bastard appeared…

Then, too, the idea of one of the Boys finding the box - perhaps curious Frenchie, or too-observant MM - and the line of questioning that would follow makes him scowl. He can almost hear them. The scoffing, the jibes, and that god awful look of pity they'd follow after him. Cause he'd finally lost it, hadn't he? Poor Billy Butcher at the end of his rope, stern atheist grasping at the straws of desperate superstition?

He wipes harshly at a streak of dust on his lip, then spits the taste of grit and disgust out of his mouth. He staggers to his feet, tightening his grip on the shovel, growling, "Fuck 'em!" Even if this doesn't work, at least they won't find the evidence if he leaves it buried here now, and he can forget all about it with the Boys none the wiser. He throws dirt back into the hole, and soon it devours the box with its keepsakes; the black cat bone, the graveyard dirt, and a grainy photo of him. With a churn of his boot heel to tamp down the mound, the earth swallows it whole.

And he waits.

Butcher tosses the shovel in the general direction of his beater of a Cadillac, turning about slowly. He peers down each lane of the crossroads he occupies, eyes straining in the dark for any sign of movement. He's not really sure what he's supposed to be looking for. But he sees…nothing. The seconds pass, and with each one he feels more and more that he's the only living soul out here in the middle of fuckall-nowhere for miles.

He waits a few more seconds. Two…three…four…And Butcher's eyes close with a sigh, head bowing. What did he really expect? Embarrassment morphs into shame, salty and sticky like the sweat on the back of his neck, and too familiar than he would ever like to admit. He sees Becca's face in his mind, eyes still diamond-bright with tears, slapping him with the realization that he might be wasting such fucking precious time. Knuckles still bruised from recent brawls begin to itch with the need to pummel and bloody something. Someone, and only because there is no mirror before him.

"Done playing hard to get, are we, Billy?"

Butcher spins on his heel hard enough that he almost makes himself dizzy on the spot. He's greeted by the same smug face from the bar weeks ago. He's startled and so the snark comes out of him with ease and a curled lip. "If it ain't the invisible cunt."

The man before him appears close to a regular bloke. A bit of a puffed up ego, perhaps. But Butcher, being skilled in persuasion and airs, recognizes a crafted mask when he sees one. The pressed suit, dry-cleaned over coat and well-shined shoes fit the business persona well enough. But there's something that Butcher can't quite put his finger on, something he clocked that night at the bar that he can't name that bothers him. Right now, he realizes, it's the fact that there's no vehicle but his in the vicinity, definitely no cover for the man to step out from…Where the fuck did he come from?

"It's pronounced Crowley," the bastard answers. "But I'll settle for 'King' just as well. Or 'Sir', if you can manage it in your current charming state. Shall we cut the pleasantries and get to business?"

"How'd you find me?" Butcher muses aloud, half ignoring Crowley's words.

"You rang?" When Butcher continues to look perplexed, Crowley gives an annoyed wave at the dirt beneath his feet. He glances down at the earth. Then back up at Crowley with a sneer.

"You're a fucking supe."

"Please," he drawls with a tone of amusement. "Those little narcissistic cretins couldn't dream of holding a candle to me. If you're going to insult me, Billy, surely you can do better than that."

"So what? You just a fancy business type with a couple tricks then?"

"Indeed," Crowley smirks, slowly stepping towards Butcher. "And I know quite a few swell tricks."

In his battered youth, Butcher had quickly developed a strong instinct for survival, borderline primal, for knowing when things weren't right. His SAS days had fine tuned it. And in this moment it's firing on all cylinders. He hears the accent that mirrors his own, should be damn near friendly. But it feels wrong. Instinct tells him that this is no East End boy. And while the other dark-haired man is a bit shorter and stockier, Butcher senses that he couldn't toss this one about so easily. When Crowley's steps turn to begin to circle him, Butcher turns with him and he knows now the word instinct is yelling at him. Predator.

Memory from the bar seeps from his alcohol-tinged brain as Crowley stops to smile at him. "Thought you said one of your associates would answer?"

"Actually," Crowley replies, waving a finger in the air, "I said normally one of my underlings would answer. I'm all in the business of making dreams come true. But your dream? Your little dream, Billy, has conflicting interests with some of my outstanding contracts. So I want to handle this one personally."

"Oh, so not a supe. But you still work for Vought."

"Now that is insulting," Crowley sneers. "On the contrary, I own them."

Now that piques Butcher's interest hard. It also makes him suspicious, makes him wonder if he'd be better off trying to kill this smarmy bastard than go through with this deal. "So you're old Stan Edgar now?"

"Good old Edgar and I have a different arrangement. Great for business here on top side. Although he's got quite the potential when he eventually joins us, that I'm certain. Perhaps, too much…"

Crowley shrugs, begins to circle Butcher again as he trails off the mention of the CEO. "I know what you want. Or rather I know two things that you want. The first of which is that big, glorious, star-spangled oaf. If things were different, I would gladly get the annoying prat off my hands by serving his head to you, well-done on a silver platter. I'd even throw in a fine glass of chianti, free of charge. Or whatever swill that tacky thing you call a shirt reeks of."

"But you can't give me Homelander," Butcher cuts in, voice thick with disdain at the answer that he's so fucking tired of hearing.

"Fraid not," Crowley replies. "Unfortunately, as he is, he is one of my prime sources for crossroad deals. Can't slaughter that cash cow just yet."

"Then you're wasting my time," Butcher growls.

"I can still give you the other thing," Crowley calls as Butcher begins to turn for his car. "That one's a piece of cake."

"Well if you own the rest of those spandex wearing cunts-"

"Not that, you idiot."

Butcher glares, brow furrowing in annoyance and confusion. Crowley sighs, apparently as exasperated with the situation. He quickly strides towards Butcher, unfazed when his fists clench at Crowley's approaching. "Good God, make me spell it out for you. A little incentive then?"

Before Butcher can reply, or pull back to strike, Crowley grabs one of his elbows. There's the sick sensation of his gut dropping as if to sink into the ground, while the rest of him feels too light, too foggy. It stops just as abruptly as if he's slammed back into his body, and a wave of nausea rolls thick in his belly clear into his throat. He blinks, he's not where he was, and it's not till his boot almost slips off the edge and into the rain gutter, he realizes he's on a fucking roof.

"Mind your step," Crowley smirks, yanking on the elbow still in his grip to bring Butcher upright.

Butcher glares at him, the possibility of what the other man claims to be beginning to sober Butcher up. Before he can dwell on it, his eyes catch the color of paint framing the window before them. He knows this shade of yellow. He knows the pine tree reaching towards them.

"Wait…"

"Well, go on!" Crowley lets go of his elbow to motion at the window. "Have a peek. Don't worry, nobody is gonna detect us. Even the cameras are deaf and blind." When Butcher still hesitates, Crowley gives a condescending look. "Really, Billy? With the list of atrocities you've done, a little voyeurism making you clutch your pearls?"

Butcher contemplates only for a second of attempting to shove him off the roof before he turns and peers through the glass. His heart taps against his sternum at the sight he finds in the bedroom before him. Curled tight there against the headboard-

"Becca."

His emotions are quickly clouded and turned murky when the lamp by her bed sparkles wet in her eyes, on her cheeks. He cannot see her mouth where she presses a pillow tight to her lips, clutched painfully to her chest. But he sees the picture beside her, instantly recognizes the faded Polaroid of them together in a place he now barely remembers but of a time he'd give anything to have back.

The moment it dawns on him that she's stifling her sobs, a knock at the door jerks them both with a start. A muffled "Mom?" and Becca scrambles to tuck the picture beneath her, wipe away the smears around her eyes. The door cracks open slowly and Butcher still can't hold back the twinge of contempt that stirs at the sight of the boy who treads in, Homelander's near carbon copy.

"Hey," she croons, voice soft and still a little watery as he stands beside the bed. "You okay, Ryan?"

"I'm ok, Mom. But…I heard you crying." His little hands fiddle with the coverlet. "And the last couple nights, too. I didn't mean to listen," he presses when her face falls. "Just…" His own voice gets thick, cracks, "Did I do something wrong?"

"No, no. Come here," she quickly answers, encouraging him up onto the bed for her to cradle him, run fingers through his hair. Conflict struggles in Butcher's chest, uncertain if he wishes the kid wasn't so unlike his father, so fucking sweet and sincere, or wishes that he had tried a little harder to get him the hell out of this godforsaken place.

"It's not you, sweetie. I'm just…" She takes a rattling breath, staring out the window, staring through him like he's a million miles away and not just a few feet and a bit of glass apart. "I'm missing someone. Someone very, very dear to me. Somebody I love."

"Can't they come see you? Maybe they miss you, too?" Ryan misses how her eyes screw shut and presses on, "Will I get to meet them?"

"I-" She gulps back hard. Then, "I wish you could. But I'm afraid that's not ever going to happen."

Just as Butcher thinks fuck this, fuck this place, fuck Vought, Crowley's voice reels him back to the present, mockingly sweet. "Touching. That's enough Lifetime channel for all our blood." And he ensnares Butcher's sleeve again.

"No, wait! Becca!"

It's already too late, the gut wrenching pulls at him before her name is past his lips. He stumbles on the gravel of the crossroads as Crowley releases him. He spins, murderous intent flaring in his eyes. "Take me back."

"No can do," Crowley says flatly, scratching at his beard absently. "No more free samples."

Butcher yanks out the sidearm tucked at the small of his back, aiming it square between the other man's eyes. He doesn't care how impulsive he's being, reckless. "Wasn't fucking asking!"

"I don't bloody care!," Crowley snaps back. Before Butcher's trigger finger can even twitch, Crowley waves two fingers and the gun rips itself from his grasp, flying into the dark. Another flick and his knees slam to the earth hard enough to make his teeth click. They won't budge no matter how much he wills them to.

"So petulant. And thick headed. You damn near act like a hunter," Crowley bites out. "But you're clearly not. Otherwise you wouldn't have called without a stitch of protection. No charms, no sigil, not even a 'no demons allowed' sign on your flesh."

Crowley squats on his heels to look Butcher square in the eye as Butcher bares his teeth at him, his hands now as paralyzed as his knees. "Allow me to enlighten you, Billy. If I felt like being particularly barbaric…" Crowley snatches a handful of Butcher's hair, enough to make him growl. Crowley gives a slow, serpent smile. "...I'd hijack this rugged meatsuit of yours, go back, give your lovely wife a visit. And then make you watch as her dear husband tears her beloved son asunder with his bare hands. And that's just for starters."

A cold wave washes over Butcher. If he wasn't sober yet, he is now. He knows a bluff when he hears it. There isn't a hint of one in either Crowley's rough voice or wicked eyes.

"You think you know violence?," Crowley now beams, releasing Butcher's locks with a laugh. "Lucky for your little darling, I'm feeling more civilized. So we'll go with something a little simpler."

A flourish of Crowley's wrist and a sickening wet crunch comes from Butcher's ribcage. He wants to scream but can't. He can't breathe. All that comes forth is splashes of red, silently bubbling over his lips, on his knees, the dirt. Then just as sudden it stops. The pain subsides, he chokes down air, then gags and hacks up something thick. Viscera.

"How's your lungs taste in your teeth?," the demon asks, as nonchalant as asking the weather. "We can do this all night. Or…" Here his voice grows softer, perched there at Butcher's shoulder. "You can make it stop. You can make her tears dry up. For once in your miserable life, you can fix it. Make it all go away."

Crowley rises to his feet as the invisible hold slides away from Butcher's limbs. He raises his hands to wipe the burgundy froth from his mouth, his beard, spitting up another glob of tissue before he can choke on it.

"It's a hell of a deal, Billy," the demon continues, circling round him yet again. "You can have your wife back. No Homelander or Vought breathing down your neck. No sniveling brat in the way. Sweet Becca won't even remember he existed. And you can sweep her off her feet to whatever paradise you can find. Ten glorious years to make up for all the ones they stole from you."

Butcher manages to shift up one foot. His head is reeling at the situation he's gotten himself into. And from the honeyed promises the demon offers. "The Boys?," he mumbles distantly.

"I can make them forget, too. They'll send you and your bride off on a second honeymoon, and then go about their little lives. Who needs supe hunting anyway?"

Crowley now leans down in Butcher's other ear. "You can have it all. And all you have to give in return is that measly, tattered, blackened thing that you call a soul. You said it yourself once." Then, almost a whisper, "What have you got to lose that you ain't already lost?"

Butcher recognizes the interrogation tactic. Battery, break them down in body and spirit. Then offer something sweet, a flicker of light in the abyss. But even though he sees it for what it is, he is not immune. It's Becca. Ten years with Becca that he has wanted for so long that he fucking aches with the need of it. And what's a soul matter if he doesn't even believe in it anyway?

"You got a pen in that suit, you cunt?," he rasps.

"That's not how this transaction works. We talked about this, remember?"

Butcher blinks incredulously up at Crowley as he moves to stand in front of him. "You fucking with me?"

"Not the slightest. We can be quite a stickler for tradition in hell," Crowley leers down at him. "Deals are sealed the old Roman way." He rocks back on his heels in amusement when Butcher seems to contemplate. "Oh c'mon, Billy. Don't tell me you're getting squeamish on me over a little lip service."

"Fuck you," he snarls. Then his mouth curls, half smirk, half grimace as he slowly rises to his feet. "I'll shove my tongue down your fucking throat if I have to."

"At least buy me dinner first, tiger. Your wife know you talk to men like that?" The leer remains but the demon's tone turns serious. "Do we have a deal?"

Every fiber in his being is telling him to leave. Telling him to turn back, even though he's certain, he knows it's already too late. In his mind's eye he can see Becca, he can see him wiping away the tears. Just the two of them. He can see her smile…

"We have a deal."

The demon grins. He's unsure but Butcher thinks that for a split second, as Crowley grabs the back of his neck, that he sees a flash of smoke, redder than blood in his eyes. Then he purrs, "Atta boy, William."

~~~

In the polished, marble calm of his office on eighty-two, Stan Edgar traces his eyes over the New York skyline. His hands are folded neatly behind his back, face as stoic as ever. He doesn't move when he hears the crystal decanter behind him clink, or the swirl of alcohol into fine cut glass. Merely inquires to the dim in the room, "I take it that it's done?"

When he finally turns, the King of Hell smacks his lips with appreciation for the unoffered beverage. Crowley saunters towards the CEO, smirking, "Done. And done."

"So Butcher…?"

"Off to begin his tawdry happy-ever-after with his missus."

"And the boy?"

"In the tender, loving care of some of my nanny demons, stowed away in one of my personal hideaways. Until you provide him a new mother, of course. Do take care to keep your little insurance policy against Homelander better hidden this time. That's what he is, isn't he?"

"Of sorts," Edgar replies cooly. He moves past Crowley to pour a drink of his own. "I trust you wouldn't have been so naive as to undo all the work we've done for Ryan to have a mother by wiping his memory."

"Merely rearranged," the demon says between sips. "For the next ten years, he'll be of the belief that mummy dearest died in a tragic accident. The kinda spiel you and your marketing team will have Hallmark eating out of your hands."

"Only ten years. Not permanently?," Edgar asks with an arched brow.

"Up until the moment my hounds rip Butcher's bloody soul out of his chest. By then Ryan will be a strapping young man, all groomed and molded, rearing to take his father's place. As planned. And the true memory of Becca will matter little to him at that point." He smiles over the rim of his glass. "Consider it my own insurance policy. Of sorts."

Edgar stares. Crowley stares back, unfazed. After a beat Edgar nods. "And what of Rebecca's memory on that day?"

"You mean her psychosis? When she raves to the world of hellhounds, demons? Accusing the golden man himself of being an unspeakable brute? Poor, poor, mad woman."

The corner of Edgar's mouth tilts lightly upward. "It's certainly not my style. But you demons always did have a flair for the dramatic." He takes a long draw on his glass. He stops when Crowley stands toe to toe with him, the demon's expression humorless. Unreadable. "Don't tell me that you found that offensive? 'Sensitive' is not a word I associate with you or your ilk."

"More like…irked. Irritable. And up until recently, I found you to be a respectable business partner. But now? I find you particularly offensive, Stan."

"Me?," Edgar drawls. "Offensive to the King of Hell?"

"I gave you the opportunity of a lifetime," Crowley cuts quickly, voice low and sharp. "A bargain not entailing your soul. Because you're ruthless, smart. More far-sighted than I can say for most. And you're just damn good for business. But…" He points an accusative finger at Edgar. "...This bumbling incompetence from you and your half-wits has cost me."

"You dare accuse me of incompetence?"

"This mess, all this bullocks that your flying circus monkey started, should have been dealt with years ago. You, Vogelbaum, and that slag Stillwell had one simple job the moment Becca Butcher showed up on your doorstep; hide the kid with his mother, and deal with the husband."

Crowley shakes his head with a sneer. "But you couldn't handle even that, could you? Instead, for nearly a decade, a bloody, raging bootneck formed a vigilante crew, undermined this company, fed intel to the CIA by the ton, and took out several supes, including one of the Seven. And in so doing, like a trail of breadcrumbs, he led Homelander right to his bastard child."

Crowley leans in, shoulder to shoulder now with the CEO as he glares at the demon over his glasses. "Now here I am," he continues in a low snarl, "per your plea to wheel and deal with said bootneck. Doing collateral damage. All because you and your jackasses couldn't keep him from getting his murderous fingers on my fucking assets!"

The demon pins him with a pointed look, tone now dangerously calm. "You've got less than five years before the end of our contract. But if I have to come back in again and clean up your mess like I'm your daddy? Well…then you will find yourself in desperate measures when I renegotiate our terms. Strictly business, you understand."

Crowley drops his now empty glass on its display with a sharp clatter. Stan Edgar stands rigid, staring down the King of Hell in suffocating silence. Then, after a slow blink, he states, "The boy will not be found again. As well as the foster mother we hire. Immediately, of course. I have a list of candidates I prepared in the case of Rebecca's untimely death."

"Damn right you did," Crowley mutters. "Just remember. You keep your dogs on a leash, I won't have to unleash mine. Yet."

And Edgar is left staring into the empty space where Crowley had stood. He thumbs the glass in his hand pensively, spidery fingers tense from his ruminations. He raises it to his lips for a heavy swig, wondering which are worse; the petulant, obnoxious supes under him, or the demons that breathe down his neck?

#writing #writing challenge #the boys #spn #billy butcher #crowley #i know it's weird but i'm still happy with how this turned out #the boys x spn

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