i love angel lore

this actually lines up well with what cas's canonical interest in bees represents at that point. bees being another order of angel, cas admiring them for their structure, their hierarchies, their closeness to god, and everyone with a job to do, during a time where cas feels like his every choice and action has led to disaster. he's desperate to be back "in the fold," to have a job and do it well. and bedlund saying here that angels are also the "closest to his missing God" also supports the idea that bees = a longing for heaven and order. honey!cas is cas at his lowest and most "helpless." he feels defeated, he wants things to be simple and easy again. this cas is perhaps looking for the guidance of that "missing God." he's searched desperately for god before, when he believed god had all the answers and would help them. following the bees, admiring them, wishing to be like them, ties into those themes of feeling helpless and looking for structure and purpose again, the kind of structure and purpose he found in heaven for millions of years. but observing the bees also twines with cas's love and admiration of earth and god's creations. it's a very cas way of longing for the familiarity of heaven. instead of just being like, "ah yes i miss heaven and it's structures" he goes and admires bees for those same attributes. (also imagine cas, in this broken defeated state, telling the bees of all his faults and trauma and regrets. the bees as angels being tuned into angel radio, receiving and relaying cas's confessions) anyway, bedlund saying bees are possibly another order of angels just !!! slams home the idea that cas is looking toward heaven at this time. and again that his interest in bees, while seemingly cute and wholesome on the surface, runs much deeper in ways that are often glossed over or not represented in fandom

So over this. Arrogant and officious, narrow minded and phobic entitled stans thinking they have rights to boss anyone else around (while they deny being phobic of course! Couldn’t be them! They’re never the problem! It’s only those evil hellers!)

The idea that to be a good fan you must ignore queer coding and deny the canon intimations when it comes to bi Dean, queer Cas, and Destiel, to be a good fan you can only see it as platonic and straight, needs to DIAF.

So…if we don’t lie about what we see in canon we’re bad fans.

If we don’t comply with fandom fascists telling us we didn’t see what we watched, if we don’t discard our own media literacy, we’re evil and ruining the fandom.

If we don’t go to our knees trying to placate antis then we’re “bullying” and “divisive” and “disrespectful.”

What absolute absurdist dreck fandom theater nonsense.

What an inane media illiterate hateful tire fire.

Every time some twit makes a post screeching that Dean is straight and if you don’t agree you’re violating a fictional character, or that the love of Dean and Cas can only be platonic because spnstan1000 or jaredluvr2brosonly or Jensen4everDeanstan said so they’re stoking the flames on purpose. While they virtue signal about being sane and good fans.

And blaming spn itself misses the point, especially when we know how much work the creatives did to get around the corporate owned entertainment system.

Blame for lack of openness falls on the corporate system. Because the board and the shareholders of entertainment corporations are mostly a bunch of old, white, straight, conservatives who fear change and cling to status quo due to their own biases, where even the CEOs who want change have to tread carefully.

We need to stop trampling over the spn writers on this and also acknowledge antis aren’t reasonable and they will not stop. Sometimes antis happen to benefit from a crummy system.

But even for a show that was queer coded we have every right to our reading and we should own our reading.

Waiting around for open acknowledgment of the kind that has magazine spreads and declarative official PR statements before we’ll do it is just leaving the patio doors open for the fandom wolves who don’t deserve to be given the time of day.

SPN IS MY HOUSE. And I will not be told what to do by destielh8terbrolove3000, or straight Dean evangelists, destielsucks80 or the downright media illiterate gatekeeping, othering culture, and denialism games of arrogant stans.

A reminder that it’s not Destiel lane behavior for why antis dislike the destiel lane. For over a decade I’ve seen them virtue signal and lie and again and again prove it was never about behavior (especially given their own bad behavior). What they really hate deep down the most is Destiel shippers existing, Destiel shipper joy, Destiel shippers analyzing the canon, Destiel shippers being seen and heard, Destiel shippers having thoughts, Destiel shippers at conventions, Destiel shippers who don’t keep themselves folded quietly and demurely out of sight out of mind and bow down and deny our own eyes and media literacy and the actual canon and the work of the creatives at spn while we go “it’s only fanfic” the way the antis demand— antis have also ranted about too much destiel fanfic so even that shaming is a lie. What they hate most is destiel shippers existing in the fandom at all. Tainting spn. The very touch of us corrupts.

through heaven and hell

Eman is one of us; btw, in the latest con he attended, someone asked him who would have saved if he could have the opportunity to do, like when Ezra saved Ahsoka from Vader, he said he would have saved Tech 🥹😭

thinking abt thee long road to destiel love confession: bedlund was like. ok EYE will write the first destiel admission of love [pens "what? i love past you" in 5x04 because well, past-dean reminds him of the dean he fell in love with, the dean that cares about the whole world. gets changed to "like."] then robbie said ok EYE will be the first to write an explicit destiel love confession and DEAN confesses FIRST and they're in an underground space with no windows! [pens "i forgive you. i love you." gets changed to "i need you" which. is honestly a more insane thing to say] then davy perez was like. ok EYE will write the first destiel love confession in 12x12 and cas is saying to dean as he's about to DIE. but then he kinda backtracks it and says he loves everyone. and then finally berens was like, ok i guess it's me. [checks notes] so we got, cas confessing his love and how much he loves dean, specifically highlighting how dean CARES and has a huge heart. and uhh they're in an underground room. with no windows. and cas is about to die. no backtracking this time.

Post 6/6 of Ben Edlund commentary from SPN Then and Now podcast, 4/15/2024

Edited for clarity.

About Cas as a "broken angel," and Sam, Dean, and Cas and plot armor:

"Castiel has been a freak his whole existence and kind of a broken angel in some way that was intended. And there’s sort of a hair in the gate that was put there for some reason and it seems like the hair in the gate is a foiling mechanism for the corrupt ambitions of the archangels, the one who keeps messing it up and keeps coming back with this stubborness that defies the story. Here’s a miracle, that we are permitted to do this. We just kept bringing Cas back because everybody was like, cool, we like Cas. No one was like, “how does this work, why is this allowed?” It actually breaks the coherence of life and death but to me it makes a certain sense in the same way that moving forward through 15 seasons one could say it just passes beyond credibility…to me it passes into an epic Gilgamesh*. It passes into a thing where of course you can throw Sam or Dean 30 feet into a concrete pillar and they just…because they have lapsed into demi-god-dom, demigodhood, through all these crazy trials and purifications, going to Hell numerous times, and dying and coming back, it is a process they went through of becoming."

---

*Footnote: Gilgamesh is an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia about a king on a quest for immortality. Not incidentally, featuring the friendship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu, best friends, found brothers, and often interpreted as a queer relationship. (There’s scholarly books on the subject). Best friends, brothers-in-arms, and lovers. Super interesting Ben Edlund references Gilgamesh right after talking about Cas’s immortality, in the same podcast where Ben Edlund also talks about Dean and Cas’s profound bond, subtext, show don’t tell but also “we just like…say it,” isn’t it? It’s not just about the immortality aspect. Dean and Cas are the Gilgamesh and Enkidu comparison. Sam and Dean and Cas as characters are comparable to the immortality themes and “demigodhood.”

Post 5 of Ben Edlund commentary from SPN Then and Now podcast, 4/15/2024

Edited for clarity.

On Dean and Cas in The End and the bond changing from obligation to personal: "At that point they had been through quite a bit and so we had gone through a lot. It was already sort of developing that from the moment that Cas raised Dean and kinda just moments that happened in season 4, that’s something that just felt like it was there. There was a…I feel like this might be a Chinese cultural tradition, or I’m just a bad person…but the notion of saving someone’s life and in saving someone’s life you are responsible for that person’s life from that point forward because you sort of almost become paternal and maternal in that regard and that Cas had that initial relationship and then they really did develop just a bond. I really enjoyed early in season 6 there was a scene which doesn’t give much away, but Cas has been away for a while, Sam has been trying to summon him, and no dice, for a year…and then Dean says all right, fine, Cas, are you here, and Cas appears immediately…Sam’s all upset and Cas goes 'Dean and I do share a deeper bond.' We just like…say it, which I enjoy."

much to be said indeed

Okay, yeah, spn writers getting their lines cut because certain parties wanted the subtext more buried. But Ben Edlund also full on telling us SHOW DON'T TELL matters and letting things be self-evident because it's right there so...it's there. He also said he really liked how they just said it outright with the "more profound bond" line.

So it's self-evident show don't tell And it's been said outright And he's for saying it outright

But if something self evident isn't said outright that doesn't mean it's not there and not canon and not text.

Let me repeat myself: If something self evident isn't said outright that doesn't mean it's not there and not canon and not text.

Rob: We got this question that we’ve been avoiding because it’s a lot of words. When Castiel is talking  to Dean in a truck about being human, the line that was aired is a different line that the script reads.

Ben Edlund: Sure.

Rob: So the line that aired is, Castiel says “I used to belong to much better club and now I’m powerless, I’m hapless , I’m hopeless, I mean, why the hell not bury myself in women and in decadence, right? It’s the end, baby, that’s what decadence is for. Why not bang a few gongs before the lights go out. But then, that’s just how I roll.” But the script reads “But instead we become this. The only thing, I think,  we have left, Dean and me, is each other. If Dean says it’s time to get out in the blaze of glory, win or loose, so be it. I’m in, but then, that’s just how I roll.” It’s just an interesting little difference.

Rich: Well somebody had to rewrite that, right?

Ben Edlund: Sure, I mean, like that was either a rewrite based on a note or something that- it’s possible that there was a shift in language that came from a pass through Kripke. To me that feels like a rewrite based on “ Ok, we know what the subtext is, bury it a little bit.” 

Rob: Gotcha.

Ben Edlund: Because, you know, it’s more interesting to know that an then have language kind of be less to the core. I mean, maybe not, sometimes you really want to go to that core.  But it didn’t seem necessary in that moment because look at the larger context. This guy is still hanging around. He’s going on a mission. And previously in the prior scene when he’s kind of like, when we used the word insouciant for the first and last time in Supernatural’s history. I believe, unless it gets quoted later in 15 seasons and I missed that. At that point he is totally ride or die with Dean. He’s basically “You say we a going on a suicide mission and there’s no hope or whatever” and Dean’s going “Yes, that’s what I’m saying” and he goes “Okay, let me go get the truck.” And so, in a sense, it was like- I would’ve done the same thing today. If that makes sense. Looking at the whole. 

Rob: I like the idea of burying it more and not serving it on a platter. Letting people- 

Ben Edlund: Mainly because all the other aspects of that story tell us that. Show us that, actually. That’s the whole thing. Show us, not tell us. I’ve heard that at some kind of seminar.

-Supernatural Then and Now podcast. BONUS CLIP: Ben Edlund Talks

Post 4 of Ben Edlund commentary from SPN Then and Now podcast, 4/15/2024

Edited for clarity.

On music cues and subtext:

"I love incongruous music cues. To me those are some of the most powerful strangely…how much subtext can you inject into a moment or a sequence with the right counter-intuitive sort of music with or without lyrics, but especially with lyrics and with cultural connotation."

About worldbuilding and planting things in SPN mythology that become important later:

"We wanted to create an end that was made entirely of Supernatural stuff. So bringing Croatoan in again—as much as there was a shape for me for the endgame, I think this returned us to some core principles of Supernatural lore including Croatoan and the cult and it brought those back which I think was healthy when you think in terms of the shape of the story, because those are very powerful things to be introduced into a five-part epic and then just not go anywhere, but instead they came and returned and you go “Oh this makes sense,” this is why one of the earlier agendas was get the Croatoan right because we’re going to need it…that’s when you’re operating optimally, when you’re world-building and you’ve got that stuff and everyone is in sync including production and design, and conception. Where we really were in a pretty good headspace to do some really good storytelling."

STAR WARS: THE BAD BATCH S3x13 — Into the Breach

Post 3 of Ben Edlund commentary from SPN Then and Now podcast, 4/15/2024

Edited for clarity.

Chuck as the Demiurge and a human projection of a human idea of God, an angel dream, and souls being the actual power:

"I have involved theories about all of it. I don’t want you to be disappointed. I’m probably a heretic at this point. I would say Chuck is a form of God. A projection of God. Largely in my view a human projection of God and a sort of teddy bear for humanity that doesn’t know it can make teddy bears. You have power of the nature—for me there’s a whole sublimation of an A state of God to a B state of God which is expressed in the material universe and people and that’s why souls are the power because God went under into the creation by way of genderless… the whole idea of Dad-God is to me, it’s sort of an angel/archangel dream. Anyway as it related to The End, I think the Demiurge* of Chuck—what was going on there, it’s hard to say."

On Chuck in The End, a faulty god with amnesia:

"You know what Chuck was doing there probably? He was depicting a future of complete becoming. You know. Because [Chuck] as a figure was a prophet, a writer…an insane person, basically. [He] wouldn’t have been able to parse reality anymore after the Winchesters visited the first time. So in a sense because how are you going to…at the end of this season and we won’t get into necessarily for the rapt viewer, there is an important set of things that happen that probably also happen to [Chuck] that didn’t necessarily happen in this Zachariah’s don’t-go-down-that-road it’s a haunted house version of the universe, right? And down that road, we could say that God was not fully realized, God had amnesis…it’s the amnesia of the gods incarnate in the material plane…[Chuck] was suffering from that too much, [he] gave up on [him]self, faulty god."

---

*Footnote: there’s a lot of material out there on the demiurge and fans have written meta about this concept with Chuck. Here's the simple Merriam-Webster definition, for reference: a: a Platonic subordinate deity who fashions the sensible world in the light of eternal ideas b: a Gnostic subordinate deity who is the creator of the material world

Oscar Isaac & Pedro Pascal Answer the Web's Most Searched Questions (2019)

Post 2 of Ben Edlund commentary from SPN Then and Now podcast, 4/15/2024

Edited for clarity.

On the nature of SPN multiverses, alternate realities, and created realities:

"It really depends on the Supernatural physicists, or metaphysicists, sort of getting into the nature of what those universes are and the degree which, for example French Mistake has a universe in it that legitimately characterizes that’s another universe, that’s real, or a multiverse, that’s real, we don’t really know necessarily but there are intimations that It’s A [Terrible] Life might have been more a created experience, more of a B.F. Skinner* behavioral kind of rat maze. I think it balances pretty well in the middle and that partly is because of Zachariah’s desperation. They’re really up against it and the way that Lucifer operates, Lucifer and Cas operate, in the presence of past Dean, in a way that kind of encompasses the idea of where the hell are you from, this changes things, or Lucifer saying, hey, I don’t care where you’re from, this doesn’t change things. There’s some kind of, as always sort of implied, especially in the first 5 years, that there’s an under-pinning of angelic rules, there’s a by-laws system where maybe you can raise the Titanic and get a certain number of 50,000 extra souls because of the quirk in the by-laws but you’d better dot your i’s or you’ll get caught. And something similar going on here where that could very well be one of the universes where the game runs itself and we don’t really know and I don’t mind not knowing that one." ---

*footnote: B.F. Skinner was an American psychologist and behaviorist who studied human behavior “in terms of responses to environmental stimuli and favors the controlled, scientific study of responses as the most direct means of elucidating human nature” and who studied Pavlovian theory on reflexes. (source: Britannica)