Post 1 of Ben Edlund commentary from SPN Then and Now podcast, 4/15/2024

Edited for clarity.

On The End as a sign on the road to the haunted house:

"In the case of The End, I believe it came from a node that I was fumbling around with and that was because it was early in a season that was heading for an apocalypse and heading for this incredible stuff and I had this — the desire to put a sign up in front of the road that goes down to the haunted house that had a skull on it that said “It’s really scary down there, you don’t know how scary it can get” — just some kind of drumbeat base note of how heavy we were intending to go. So without giving away anything that was gonig to be part of the key mechanics of the end of the season. So that was a bit of a balancing act."

On Dean as a PH test of horror levels:

"In a sense Dean was the PH test or the strip reading to level of pain, horror, and change we were threatening. Jensen…he’s talked to me about that briefly, how much…how difficult that was. He did such an amazing job, he really was two people with the same shape, two totally different guys with the same five o’clock shadow."

Future Dean, scar tissue, and Zachariah’s propaganda tools:

"It was about the amount of experience that Dean had and he had been to the war, sorry, future Dean, had an amount of experience with this thing that present Dean was fearing and that was a distance or a difference in character that was depicted in scar tissue, basically, and regret, a tremendous amount of regret, because the sort of fulcrum of the universe had shifted and he couldn’t call out to angels anymore so he was…at least whatever this version of Dean was felt tremendous humility. Well, and when you look at it, it’s almost sort of charitable of us all, including me, I see it as its own universe that has its own reality but it’s also a perfectly tuned propaganda tool from Zachariah to have Dean do what he wants. It’s almost on the nose, like, come on."

13.03.

i am going to cry. bc the way sam was reading a parenting book about gifted kids to learn how to take care of jack and the whole speech he gave him about how he knows what it’s like to be afraid of yourself and “you’re not evil… where did you get that idea?” and waiting for dean to come home so he could give him a Talk and trying to make dean see that this is just like when sam was in his psychic demon blood days AND

dean being like “that’s different” WHY DEAN WHY WAS IT DIFFERENT? it is the exact same you have a kid who is confused and scared of himself and thinks he’s evil and deserves to die (because of you) but instead of being like “no it’s ok we’ll figure this out because i am NEVER going to kill you” like he did with sam, instead he fucking told jack that when (not if) the time came, he was going to kill him personally!

dean was such a dick for this because why is it only different when it’s sam? why will you kill every monster that is also human unless it’s sam? why, when sam is literally begging you to do this one thing for him, do you not listen?

he will move heaven and hell for his baby brother, but everyone else is just cannon fodder.

the fact that eric kripke isn't even christian really adds something to the way christianity is depicted on supernatural. because its really not about being christian at all, but about living in america, a country dominated by christianity, and having to decide for yourself how to handle that. faith is huge in supernatural, and the mythology of the show is very bible-centric, but notably, christ is never there. even sam, who starts out revering the angels, who once said he prays every night, doesn't actually call himself a christian or imply that he believes in jesus--the show is steeped in christianity and biblical lore and yet neither sam nor dean are christians. in fact, over and over again the church itself is depicted as a haunted house that sam and dean will only ever enter as strangers, as outsiders. priests, preachers, faith healers, chapels, crypts, etc. are all just iconography that create an intense sense of unease that sam and dean respond to instantly. as a jew, its very relatable. an essential part of living in america when you're not christian is that exact sense of unease, of knowing that the culture of your country has ensured that you'll get knocked over by christianity no matter where you go, that you'll see hundreds of people truly believing they're good people while doing awful things in the name of their god, and you have no choice but to confront that. kripke gets it

I’m sorry the fact that when Castiel pulled Dean out of Hell he proclaimed “Dean Winchester has been saved” with such force that it broke through Anna’s humanity to the angelic part of her mind is something we don’t talk about enough actually

That one time Lucifer confirmed Destiel and Dean’s feelings for Cas

my new Destiel theory: Dean couldn't say I love you not because of his own denial of the fact but because Chuck refused to write it like Chuck's weird psycho-sexual obsession with Dean made him so twisted that rather than allow his character to follow a natural arc that the character itself wanted to follow (see s8 rewrite of "I love you" into "I need you"), he just kept dodging it through increasingly ridiculous and pathetic ploys. he couldn't bear to watch Dean choose free will (Cas) over his heavenly ordained plan, so he just kept fucking with their relationship (see every divorce/widower arc, and all the other will they/won't they shit). really puts Cas's "What's real? We are." into context. like they are, in fact, the only real thing, despite Chuck's attempts to dismantle their relationship.

Thinking about how the plot of season 6 wouldn’t make sense if you do not acknowledge the fact that Cas and Crowley working together was an affair, or at least it felt like so to Dean.

Majority of the people that I heard saying that they disliked that conflict, say that it doesn’t make sense because Dean should’ve understood Cas’ point of view. And that Dean has also worked with demons before, more than once, out of desperation. Which is why he doesn’t have the right to be mad. And I understand that. But it wasn’t about working with demons. No. Not really. The thing that hurt Dean the most about Cas’ choice was how he chose to ask for help from Crowley, instead of him. Cas chose Crowley over him.

“Look me in the eye, and tell me you’re not working with Crowley…”

“You’re in it with him? You and Crowley?? You’re going after purgatory together??? You have, huh? This whole time!”

“No, you had a choice. You just made the wrong one.”

“I was there. Where were you?”

The plot literally doesn’t make sense if you do not acknowledge destiel or crowstiel or deancascrowley. And I think that’s insane, especially for a show from 2005.

No disrespect to all the other actors (I seriously love them all) but can we take a moment and appreciate Misha Collins and Mark Sheppard's acting skills?

I mean, let's just think about it.

60% of what Cas says is "Dean" in infinite inflections, the other 40% literally makes zero sense and it's totally unfunny if the lines are not delivered to perfection. Yet, Misha slays every effing time.

On the other hand, 60% of what Crowley says are sexual innuendos, the other 40% are pop culture references that I personally don't get half of the time (I'm not from the US). Yet, Mark eats and leaves no crumbs every effing time.

And they both have spent 8+ years in the same frigging costumes.

I mean, I'm just blown away, they literally carried the show on their shoulders and I'll appreciate them forever.

It’s true that, originally, Cas only rebelled in one universe. But it’s not true anymore.

The second that story was shown to us, countless amounts of Fanfiction, Fanart, and literally just thoughts, created new realities. The love Cas expressed was so powerful and beautiful that it inspired us to bring more universes into being.

Every time a fanfiction is written, Cas rebels again. Every time fanart is drawn, Cas loves again. Every time an idea is thought up, Cas feels again.

And maybe one day, those will outnumber the ones where he obeys, if it doesn’t already.

Dean's nothing about our lives is real speech? When he says "everything we are is because of chuck"? He was speaking privately & directly to Castiel when he said that.

Not to Sam. Not everything I am. Everything we are. Dean was having a full on crisis.

"You asked, 'What about all of this is real?' We are." Dean didn't know how right Cas was.

Like no baybee. It'll take 15 episodes, but god himself will tell you Cas defied him and his plan to love you, actually.

Post 4 of Ben Edlund commentary from SPN Then and Now podcast, 4/15/2024

Edited for clarity.

On music cues and subtext:

"I love incongruous music cues. To me those are some of the most powerful strangely…how much subtext can you inject into a moment or a sequence with the right counter-intuitive sort of music with or without lyrics, but especially with lyrics and with cultural connotation."

About worldbuilding and planting things in SPN mythology that become important later:

"We wanted to create an end that was made entirely of Supernatural stuff. So bringing Croatoan in again—as much as there was a shape for me for the endgame, I think this returned us to some core principles of Supernatural lore including Croatoan and the cult and it brought those back which I think was healthy when you think in terms of the shape of the story, because those are very powerful things to be introduced into a five-part epic and then just not go anywhere, but instead they came and returned and you go “Oh this makes sense,” this is why one of the earlier agendas was get the Croatoan right because we’re going to need it…that’s when you’re operating optimally, when you’re world-building and you’ve got that stuff and everyone is in sync including production and design, and conception. Where we really were in a pretty good headspace to do some really good storytelling."

it’s so surreal to me that supernatural went on for so long that the final arc of the show was literally the main characters screaming and begging and fighting for freedom and rest from a controlling and obsessive author/god who had been writing their lives up until that point, who simply would not let them die. it went on for so long that it went from being a show where the two leads used phones with antennae and made references to myspace, to being a show where they literally referenced the “sir, this is a wendy’s” meme and dean said “galaxy brained”. it went from being a dark and gritty show shot on film to being a show shot on digital where the saturation was so bright that it looked like a sitcom even at night. after 15 seasons, all the fear and grittiness and tension had been sucked out of the narrative. it devolved from a story about choosing free will over destiny into a story about whether or not having free will is even possible after you’ve discovered that god has personally controlled your whole life. the transformation from “classic kripke era” supernatural into “network controlled never-ending” supernatural was literally played out in the storyline of the show itself. it’s unbelievable.

you can't convince me dean wasn't already in love with castiel by s11 like. what do you mean on the episode where dean is hung up, nay, borderline desperate to find a way to get castiel back, the case they land just so happens to be handled by a hunter couple (a romantic! mlm! couple!!!!!)

dean dead ass asks them how it's like to settle down with these big green eyes just so full of longing and understanding.

LIKE TELL ME THIS ISN'T HOW DEAN STARES AT CAS !!!!!!!

and this ending, don't even get me started on this ending

THEY GET TO RETIRE!!!! THIS IS DEAN FINALLY SEEING A HAPPY ENDING FOR HUNTERS!!!!! THIS IS DEAN REALIZING AND ACCEPTING THAT IT'S POSSIBLE!!!!!!

they got me in the first half, not gonna lie, with jesse's "they killed my brother" revenge story and cesar's ride-or-die support but then. this sealed the deal.

horses???? hello mr. dean cowboy fetish winchester????? and emt???? when castiel's a whole ass healer mage with his angel mojo???? TELL ME I'M NOT DELUSIONAL

The narrative is giving, "see? this can happen. happiness does exist in this universe, but only from a far enough distance that dean and sam can yearn for it without really getting it."

do you understand?? dean winchester, trained since he was a child to hone & trust his instincts and be suspicious of the world because it was dangerous fought against those instincts and against bobby and sam’s belief that cas was working against them because he wanted SO BADLY to believe in cas, he cared SO MUCH about his friend and chose to put his faith in him do you understand how wild that is ??

this is dean directly speaking to us with the fanfiction writing power and living outside of the narrative he's trapped in, asking us to do what chuck and the cw don't allow him to have

It's been a while since I watched Supernatural, so don't take my opinions as gospel or anything. But I think Dean is self-hating to the point of narcissism in some ways. Don't get me wrong, I empathise with Dean and understand why fans largely do too. But his self-loathing warps his perception and becomes the centre of EVERYTHING and at times that really has ripple effects on those around him - particularly Sam.

Take their childhood, Sam has a right to mourn the fact that he didn't get a normal childhood. He's allowed to be angry that he didn't get a home, a present father, a stable community, and consistent education. But whenever Sam attempts to express his complicated feelings about his childhood, Dean immediately interprets it as ' oh I was supposed to look out for you. Are you saying I failed? Are you confirming I'm worthless?' which grinds the conversation to a complete halt. Because of Dean's intense self-criticism, Sam can never really be 100% honest with him or ask for support with his own issues, especially regarding their childhood. As anything outside of 100% gratitude just becomes another stick for Dean to beat himself with, and the conversation is immediately derailed.

Not only does Deans self-hatred mean that Sam's expression of his own experiences are pretty consistently shut down. In some ways, I think Dean strips Sam of his autonomy - he's so self-loathing, he sees every decision Sam makes as being about/a reaction to him. A good example of this is Stanford. Rather than understanding Stanford for what it was, an attempt by Sam to carve out a better life from himself and escape hunting. Dean views it as betrayal or abandonment, some re-affirmation of his own belief that he's not worth caring about. Rather than understanding it's a rejection of hunting, he sees it as Sam rejecting him. To Dean, Sam isn't attempting to find a better life, he's punishing the family.

Overall, it's interesting that people largely and rightfully sympathise with Dean due to his self-hatred. However, I don't see as much discussion about how his self-hatred doesn't just hurt him, it hurts those he's close to, as it colours his interpretation of their every action. Dean's self-loathing is always the biggest thing in the room and that has consequences.