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orionsangel86 · 1 year

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Hob Gadling - A Queer Romantic?

I have been listening to The World's End chapters of The Sandman on Audible lately and just finished Hob's Leviathan. I didn't pay this story much attention when I first read the comic, as I tended to read through the stories quickly and put more focus into the stories where Dream had a larger role. But one of the reasons I like listening to the Audible book is because it allows me to absorb each story more thoroughly and take my time thinking about each one and the (usually multiple) meanings behind them.

Hob Gadling is a character that fandom has fallen in love with. I think this is clear to anyone that takes even a partial glance at Sandman fandom. This isn't a criticism - Ferdie's performance as Hob in the Netflix show has done wonders for Hob's character. He has made his version of Hob very easy to fall in love with!

But the truth is that in The Sandman comics, Hob is a minor character who we only get to know very little about. The story Hob's Leviathan appears in The Worlds End Sandman book. We only meet him twice before this, once in The Doll's House, where we are introduced to him in Men of Good Fortune, and again in Season of Mists when Dream comes to let him know that he may miss their next meeting. In both these issues, Hob is introduced via the narrator, and therefore I like to think that we are given a fairly honest representation of the kind of person he is. We watch him grow and learn throughout the centuries in MoGF, but one of the major takeaways from this I believe is that he tends to always be on the wrong side of history. He makes bad choices and can be a bit narrow minded. He is rude and selfish and also rather self-absorbed. I actually think that the performance of the voice actor who plays Hob in the Audible book emphasises these character flaws making him even more unlikeable in many ways, though I am aware that this could just be my own experience and opinion.

But Hob's Leviathan takes a different view of Hob. Literally. The narrator of this story is a young boy of 16 called Jim. Jim met Hob on a ship travelling from Bombay to Liverpool in 1914. Jim was working on the ship as a cabin boy and Hob had bought his passage back to England - though it is revealled at the end of the story that Hob actually owned the ship they were travelling on. It is clear that at this point in time, Hob is extremely wealthy.

Jim attends to Hob throughout the journey, and grows very fond of him. In Jim's tale, Hob is a good man, who is kind and thoughtful and cares about others. He saves the life of a stowaway (who turns out to be another immortal). He is shown to be patient, and funny, and very intelligent. Jim waxes poetic about how smart Hob is, and how much he impressed him. It is particularly clear in the Audible book that Jim is taken with Hob, to the point that it could arguably be a crush.

It is fascinating how much more likeable Hob is when narrated from the viewpoint of someone with a crush on him, whether this story is exaggerated through rose tinted glasses is of course something to consider. All the tales in World's End are just that, tales. There is a constant undercurrent of exaggeration and make believe to them where even the other patrons of the inn question elements to each of the stories. We are not supposed to take these stories as absolute fact, rather they are supposed to reveal to us more about the narrators as well as their own experiences existing in this magical and strange world.

When it is revealled that Jim is actually a girl called Peggy in disguise so they can get work on the ships, the quite obvious crush makes more sense to a heteronormative audience, but what I particularly like about this story is its queer potential. See in the comic, it isn't really clarified if Jim goes by Jim because they feel more themselves as a boy, rather than a girl, or if they are disguising themself as a boy just to get work as a means to an end. I would argue that the latter is the more obvious interpretation. Jim tells the other World's End patrons that they are getting too old to keep up the disguise and will eventually have to stop working in shipping, and that when that happens, they will take on a new name, a new identity and do something else, but that for now, the patrons can keep calling them Jim.

*for a lack of clarity around the point in the comic, I am going to use gender neutral pronouns for Jim going forward*

Now from Hob's POV, he figured out that Jim was a girl, and they talk about it briefly along with the sea serpent they saw. I think that at this point, Hob is impressively progressive compared to the previous times we have met him. Now whether or not this is biased storytelling from someone who has a crush on him remains to be seen, but if we take Jim's word as truth, not only is 1914 Hob a fair and honest man who is willing to pay the way of a stowaway and fully respect the secrets of a young girl disguised as a boy so they can work on ships, but he's also totally comfortable flirting with them.

I like that he calls Jim the "handsome cabin boy". I like that this version of Hob, whether real or an exaggeration skewed by Jim's feelings for him, respects Jim's identity. Jim may be a girl in disguise, but Hob doesnt call her pretty, he calls him handsome.

It's all just a bit subtly queer and I like that for Hob (But then I would do, I'm a Dreamling shipper HA)

When Jim finishes their story, they state that they didn't see Hob again after that, but the comics later do give us a possible outcome to Jim's story...

We next see Hob in The Kindly Ones where he is mourning the death of his girlfriend Audrey. He briefly reveals that Audrey was the first person he had loved since Peggy, who was his lover until her death during the Blitz. Whilst it isn't made clear that Hob's lover Peggy is the same Jim that we meet in World's End, it is a bit too much of a coincidence. The timing adds up. If Jim was 16 in 1914, they'd be in their early 40s during the Blitz. Hob remains forever in his early 30s so I'd say its a safe bet that Jim eventually found Hob again and they were together. Hob loved them enough that he wasn't with anyone again until Audrey in the 80s. That's 50 years worth of mourning. A long time not to be with anyone, even for an immortal.

It's funny because we know so little about Hob, but one thing that I have seen commented on here a lot is that comic Hob is deemed to be as Straight as an arrow. Now I admit that the voice actor in the Audible book plays him very straight, but that is still only one interpretation.

All this is to say that I am fascinated with how the Netflix show will adapt this, since Hob in the show already comes across much kinder and more selfless than his comic counterpart. He already has an entire fandom viewing him as queer, and the comics certainly don't outright shut down such interpretations. There are moments in the comics that you have to wonder on. He does call Jim handsome rather than pretty, and when he talks to Audrey's grave he mentions his wives and loves as separate groups. He talks about finding it easy to get sex if you want it, and he talks about it in generally gender neutral terms. In Sunday Mourning Gwen reveals that she thought he was gay when she first met him, though her reasonings were that he knew so many dead people (a dark reminder that these comics were published at the height of the Aids epidemic). He reacts very badly to the news of Morpheus' death. He states on several occassions just how much he liked Morpheus, and he is one of the few people to wake up from the Wake with tears running down his cheeks. I would arguably state that its between Hob and Matthew as to who had the worst reaction to Morpheus' death, showing just how much both Hob and Matthew cared about him, and placing Hob on par with Matthew in the comics is a big deal. He seriously considers accepting Death's gift when she offers it, simply because Morpheus is dead. He doesn't, because at the end of the day, its just not in his nature to do so, and given he then dreams of Morpheus, I like to think that it was a test, that he passed.

When it comes to how the show will adapt all this, I genuinely think it will take a new approach with Jim/Peggy. I think they will be either a trans man, or at least non binary. But I think having Jim be a trans man is the better option. In the comics, Jim's tale is only very subtly queer, Jim clearly likes being Jim, but it seems like its a means to an end, a convenience in order to get work on the ships, rather than being something that is core to Jim's feelings on their gender. Besides, if we assume that Jim is indeed the Peggy Hob talks about in The Kindly Ones, then we know that Jim goes back to being Peggy when they get older and apparently continues living as a woman whilst they are with Hob, otherwise I doubt Hob would have referred to one of his greatest loves by a name they themselves rejected and only used she/her pronouns when talking about them. Nevertheless there is no reason for the show to take this approach, and if they DO decide that Jim should be a trans man, then their relationship with Hob is canonically a queer one. Trans men are men and if one of Hob's greatest loves is a trans man, then Hob is a queer man himself. I genuinely believe the show will take this route and I can't wait to see it.

Going back to my point about narrators bias, if MoGF, SoM, tKO, and TW are all narrated by a neutral third party, then this must be the true Hob. A not overly likeable rather selfish man. He has his good points, and he has certainly grown and changed over the centuries, and carries a lot of guilt for his past mistakes, but he is still quite self absorbed. Jim paints a picture of a rose tinted Hob that is far more the dreamy romantic older gentleman that took a young person under his wing. Which is fair enough.

The show is of course its own adaptation, with changes from the comics as it sees fit, but I do feel it's my duty to remind you that the show also has a narrator guiding the audience through its many stories. Dream of the Endless, Lord Morpheus, King of Nightmares and Prince of Stories himself. Take from that whatever you will.

;-)

#why yes i did just imply that show!hob comes across so likeable because we are seeing him from Dream's POV #what of it?#lmao #sandman meta #the sandman #sandman analysis #hob gadling #dreamling #dream of the endless #the worlds end #sandman comic spoilers #major sandman comic spoilers #the sandman comics

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ladyluscinia · 7 months

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What Exactly Did David Jenkins Say?

Look, I'm still staunchly of the opinion that Word of God statements and creator interviews are overvalued in fandom, especially when they get pulled out mostly as gotchas without then continuing to analyze whether or not the show canon is successful at getting across that same message. Death of the Author is good, actually, and we should remember that. But they are worth looking at in the context of evaluating intent vs execution, and for future speculation - just, like, please with less of the whole mile high pedestal idolizing and backlash cycles.

But if overvalued "Word of God" is annoying, then overvalued "supposed creator statements that have gone through three rounds of telephone and any given blogger has only heard about a quarter of them, which they'll use confidently anyway" is worse. So, since I'd already looked up interviews for various reasons...

Here is a fairly comprehensive list of interviews David Jenkins has given and statements he's made during them, presented without commentary (save curating which statements get highlighted). All provided with links. I definitely missed some, so if you have any that you want to add, please do - though if you could trim off any commentary and save it for tags / your own post with a link that would be cool.

Also, again, just because he said it doesn't make it incontrovertible canon that only a blind person wouldn't understand. Some of these even arguably contradict each other. The creator's intent doesn't always translate to what the show is doing, nor do you even have to think it was a good idea.

(Listed in chronological order from oldest to newest - post contains spoilers below the cut)

Pre-S1

Gizmodo - Feb 22, 2022 - with Cheryl Eddy (io9) - Link

Why this story - Really, it was the enigma of Stede that drew him in. "I think actual pirate stuff is fine, but it's not necessarily my cup of tea. And I think Taika [Waititi] felt similarly. But hearing about this guy and reading about him and seeing that, you know, he left his family, then he met Blackbeard, they hit it off, and we don't know any of the details in between. So filling those blanks in, and having a very human story, and then being able to do it with the pirate genre, that was like, 'Oh, this would be cool.'"

Post 1x01 - 1x03

Polygon - March 5, 2022 - with Tasha Robinson - Link

David Jenkins, Taika Waititi, and Rhys Darby interview

About Stede running off to sea - "Stede thought he could outrun his baggage, and you can't outrun your baggage."

About S1 - "I don't think there was enough improv on set! We had an insane schedule, with a huge amount of plot. We were budgeted and designed as a one-hour show, but with a half-hour production schedule, which means we really had to chase these episodes to get them shot. And then there are certain emotional beats that we really needed. So trying to find places to find the fun was hard."

Mashable - Mar 5, 2022 - with Belen Edwards - Link

About the show concept - "It was Jenkins' wife who first told him about Stede's adventures; she thought it would make a good TV show."

On casting Rhys Darby - "Stede did a terrible thing to his family. If you cast it wrong, he's a very hard character to get behind," Jenkins said. "Very quickly, the only person I thought of for this was Rhys [Darby]. He has this childlike quality that's endearing."

About the story - "Seeing them discover a need for each other that neither anticipated and charting how that relationship goes is the meat of the story." + "If you're on this ship, you're running from something, and you're running to something that you can't be on land"

Mentions of matelotage - "In fact, one of Jenkins's favorite pirate facts that he learned while working on Our Flag Means Death was the term matelotage, which was a civil union between same-sex pirates. "The more you look at it," he explained, "the more you write to the fact that this is a queer-positive world.""

Discussing piracy careers - "Something else that astounded Jenkins about pirates was "just how fast it all moved — their lives were quite short," he said. "Your career [in piracy] wasn't very long.""

Post 1x09 - 1x10

Decider - Mar 24, 2022 - with Kayla Cobb - Link

David Jenkins, Taika Waititi, and Rhys Darby interview

Pitch for the show - "That was in the pitch," series creator David Jenkins told Decider. "That was the reason, to make them fall in love with each other."

About the romance - "The main thing to me was to side-step coming out," Jenkins continued. "I just want a romance. I want a Titanic romance between these two people. We don't have to do the coming out story and then the non-binary story for Jim [Vico Ortiz]."

About S2 and the show - "The show is the relationship," Jenkins said. "So, we end in a place where there is this breakup. What happens after a breakup between these two people who, one’s realized he's in love and the other one is hurt in a way that he's never been hurt before? What does that do to each of them in an action, pirate world with them trying to find each other again? So again, I really love those rom-com beats."

Collider - Mar 24, 2022 - with Carly Lane - Link

On making it a romcom - "It's the only reason to make the show. If you didn't do that, it would just be weird. I mean, you're using the rom-com beats. You're using these like they're together. And it's funny because so we're so habituated to be like bromance, bromance, bromance, and it's such a simple move to put them together."

Discusses focusing on romance - "I guess I really... I get kind of bored. How much pirate can you do? They're going to rob stuff. They're going to steal ships. There's only so many pirate stories you can do. So if you're going to do a workplace story, I mean, you're essentially having this... You'd have this same amount of relationships in Grey's Anatomy in the ER. So it's standard. It's the most standard. We're making a soap opera on a pirate ship, and to use those soap opera beats... I like it, and I like the flavor in a comedy when you have something that's played genuinely up against very ridiculous things."

Discusses history and kissing scene

Discusses importance of going home to Mary - "Yeah, that was the problem for me in the story. I knew that I wanted to have the end where he goes home, because you need to give Mary her day in court. I just wanted to know from Mary's perspective what happened and then to see that, yeah, they're friends."

Is Lucius dead? - "You got to wait."

EW.com - Mar 25, 2022 - with Devan Coggan - Link

David Jenkins, Taika Waititi, and Rhys Darby interview

Pitch for the show - "To me, [Stede and Blackbeard's relationship] is the reason to make the show," Jenkins explains. "When Taika and I were first talking about it, he was like, 'Oh yeah, that's the show.' I first started reading about Stede and how he befriended Blackbeard and we don't know why. Very quickly, it was like, 'Oh, it's a romance.'"

Polygon - Mar 25, 2022 - with Tasha Robinson - Link

Discusses 3-season intent - "I think three seasons is good. I think we could do it in three."

Discusses acts within S1 - "To me, when you see him get stabbed, and the blood runs through his fingers, it’s like 'Oh, no, the clown got stabbed! And not comedy-stabbed, he got stabbed stabbed!' That to me is cool. And then having Blackbeard find him as the end of what would be the first act of our story felt good to me."

Discusses kiss scene filming and the national moment around gay rights

What to focus on a rewatch - "I think Con O'Neill does such a great job. He's such a complex character, and it's such a tortured relationship. And that's a love story too, between him and Blackbeard. It's a very dysfunctional story, but it's fun to watch. Watch that maybe, on a rewatch, looking where their relationship ultimately goes."

TV Insider - Mar 25, 2022 - with Meaghan Darwish - Link

Discusses show pitch - "When I was pitching [the show] to people, I'd be like, 'Okay, so it's about Stede and Blackbeard, and then they hit it off and then they fall in love.' And then people are like, 'Okay, cool,' Jenkins shares. "And then they really fall in love, and become intimately involved."

Discusses historical inspiration

Discusses S2 direction - "But when [Stede] goes to find [Blackbeard], he's gone and his crew's been abandoned. And so watching them try to negotiate that, that's a good rom-com beat," he adds.

The Verge - Apr 15, 2022 - with Charles Pulliam-Moore - Link

Discusses being surprised by queerbaiting legacy - "...part of me knew that, yes, Stede and Ed's romance was going to be real. But one part of me felt like, 'We're going to do this story, and they're going to kiss, and maybe that's not even going to be that big a deal. Maybe it'll just be a blip.'"

Discusses writing romance - "I'd never written a romance before this one, but I think with Ed and Stede, the question's always 'what's the need for each other?'"

Discusses falling in love and Stede's accidental seduction - "It made sense to have that love be almost like a teenage version of falling in love — one with all these intense and conflicting feelings. They're middle-aged, but Stede's young. Ed's young. Emotionally, they're like 16, and they've both got a lot to learn."

Discusses Con O'Neill as Izzy - "He plays an exhausted quality that's really lovely because this character could just be generically evil, and the way Con plays, it is like, he's credible. I believe that he can do some damage if he wanted to. My favorite thing I've seen about the show is somebody saying that Con's playing the only human with a bunch of Muppets. It does feel like that a bit where he's like Charles Grodin in The Great Muppet Caper."

On Izzy being in love with Blackbeard - "I think Izzy's deeply in love with Blackbeard, and it's a very dysfunctional kind of love, and he's like the jilted spouse who's losing his man to fucking Stede Bonnet, and he can't believe this is happening."

Discusses masculinity and piracy as an escape from that

Discusses diversity and trauma based stories - "And the consensus in that very diverse room was that we wanted to show that isn't just wallowing in trauma. We don't have to do a coming out scene or focusing on the trauma of it — not to say that those stories aren’t valid."

Gizmodo - Jun 20, 2022 - with Linda Codega (io9) - Link

Musing on fandom response to the show - "I'm wondering if the fact that because the queerness of this show isn't gaslighting the audience, and isn't a function of wanting to do something, but not being able to produce the results because of network standards. I think we just happened to be in this lucky spot where the show is actually queer… and I do think that people are responding to that."

Comparing fanfiction to writing - "And Con O'Neill's audition was one of those things I would go back to. I would watch that and be like… Oh, right, that's the show. And in a way, you're writing fanfiction for a certain actor and character because you want them to do something, and you're like–" at this point, it must be said, Jenkins let out a maniacal little giggle. He’s just as thrilled to show off Con O'Neill's ability to seem both deeply exhausted and menacing as the rest of the fandom. "And you [as the writer] you're like… And then Izzy does this now."

EW.com - Dec 13, 2022 - with Devan Coggan - Link

Discusses The Chain sequence - "I had initially wanted that end sequence to be like the FBI raid in a mob movie, where the feds come in, and they've got boxes of stuff, and everyone's running, and someone makes a dash for it," Jenkins explains. "So, it's like a mob movie or FBI raid story, and then it's also a story of Stede's lover coming back."

Pre-S2

Collider - Oct 2, 2023 - with Carly Lane - Link

Discusses fan reaction to S1 - "I thought that they'd kiss, and people would be like, 'Oh, cool, cool!' I kind of thought people would know a little bit more [about] where we were going, but then in hindsight, no, people have been hurt and burned on so many other shows and then made to feel silly."

Discusses starting S2 dark - "One of these characters is very, very damaged and has never made himself vulnerable in this way before, and I don't think [he] would react very well to having his heart broken in this way. I don't think it would be cute, and I don't think it would be funny. I think it would be scary as hell to watch a very damaged guy that we've established in Ed, who killed his dad and thinks he's not capable of being loved, deal with rejection and see that Stede really hurt him."

Discusses adding more female characters

Discusses S2 needle drops including "This Woman's Work"

Discusses 3-season arc

Post 2x01 - 2x03

Mashable - Oct 5, 2023 - with Belen Edwards - Link

Discusses fandom response to S1

About the canon gay relationship - "To watch the explosion of enthusiasm around [the kiss] was disorienting, almost," Jenkins said. "I thought people would react to it, but I didn't think the reaction would be that big. And then it was moving, because I didn't realize that this audience felt so unserved in general, as far as storylines go."

Insider - Oct 5, 2023 - with Ayomikun Adekaiyero - Link

Tease on leaning into the Stede / Ed / Izzy love triangle - "I think Izzy, in a certain way, got the worst deal in the first season," the showrunner tells Insider. "He gets jilted and then he still is in spurned spouse territory at the beginning of the second season."

Discusses Izzy's arc - "What is that relationship about? And I think by the end of the season it kind of becomes a little unexpected of who they are to each other and what they mean to each other," he teases

Discusses addition of Zheng - "He likens Zheng's way of pirating to a successful tech startup, compared with the garage sale vibe Stede had going on the Revenge."

Discusses introducing Hornigold - "I thought Hornigold was the most obvious because he was the person who made Blackbeard what he is. And Blackbeard has a father complex, so it's natural that he's going to bring his former captain back," the show creator said. "It's a struggle with him because he and dad figures don't historically do well."

Discusses importance of the mermaid scene

Inverse - Oct 5, 2023 - with Hoai-Tran Bui - Link

Reveals he didn't commit to the romance until shooting 1x06 - "Jenkins always intended his pirate comedy to end with a romance, but he'd envisioned it as an unrequited love. "It was going to be about Stede learning what love is, and Ed making himself vulnerable and getting burned," Jenkins says of his original pitch. But Darby and Waititi's choices in the scene, which they played without diffusing the tenderness with a joke, made him wonder if they could take the show in a new direction."

Discusses mermaid Stede idea from S1 - "We talked about Stede as a mermaid very early on in the writers' room," Jenkins says. "At some point, yeah, I want to see Rhys Darby as a merman." + "They wanted us to come up with a Season 2 pitch during Season 1. And that was one of the ideas we hit on, and I can't quite remember how we got there, but it was us asking, what is a pirate world? Are there mermaids? Is there magic in this show? With pirate stuff, I don’t know that I want there to be magic, but there was a way where it was something really beautiful about a mer-person, and I like the idea that their coming together would have a mythic size to it."

Discusses historical divergence

Discusses matelotage and pirates as weird outsiders

TV Guide - Oct 5, 2023 - with Allison Piccuro - Link

About the shipping culture - "It's the meat of the show, so it's great to have people bought into the central romance. If it were a bromance that we were trying to make look like a romance, that would suck."

Discusses playlists he makes

Discusses opening dream sequence - "I just like that it started with something badass. Stede, Blackbeard, and Izzy are on an arc together. Whether they're in stories together or not, their ultimate arc is together. I think, by the end of this season, the last episode, that first scene will be gratifying. I won't say why, but their fates are tied together."

Discusses Kraken arc - "But I think the thing that's good about this show is that it can go to really sweet comedy land, but I want there to be, like, if someone loses a body part, for instance, they lose a body part. To do justice to the fact that this guy is a killer and a monster, and dealing with heartache that he doesn't know how to deal with, I think you really need to go there."

Discusses Izzy in S2 - "I mean, he's jilted. He had a partnership with Blackbeard, and he knows he can't live up to this person that Blackbeard fell in love with... Who is that guy? What are his hobbies? What does it look like when he's not totally subsumed with his boss's love affair with somebody, and heartbroken?"

On S2 reunion - "The second season is them being a little bit more mature... It's the thing where you're in your 20s or 30s and you're like, "Well, should we move in together?" They have to make up some time because neither of them have been in a functional relationship before."

About genre of pirate stories - "...is a show about multiple relationships. That's what I want to see when I see this show. I don't want to see a bunch of pirate things that I've seen in other things, I'll just go watch another thing if I want to see that. That's not really my thing. I like the genre, but it's a very hard genre to budge. I want to see relationships in a pirate world."

Discusses the A Star is Born aspect of seeking fame / retiring

Mashable - Oct 7, 2023 - with Belen Edwards - Link

About the mermaid scene - "You need something expressive for when they come back together," Jenkins said. "Their reunion moment has to feel big and mythical. This is not a world where mermaids actually exist, but their love for each other has that size that you can get [a mermaid] in there somewhere."

About Kate Bush - "I love Kate Bush, and I love that song, and I know Taika loves that song," Jenkins explained of the choice. "So I wanted to find a place for that song somewhere in the second season."

Polygon - Oct 9, 2023 - with Tasha Robinson & more - Link

Compares S2 and "Golden Age of Piracy" stuff to Westerns, lists 5 he was thinking of - "Every Western that’s good is that story," Jenkins says. "'This way of life we made is coming to an end. It can't last. It's a blip in time. We created this thing because we need it to exist. We're outlaws, and we need a culture that suits us, but it's running out of time.'"

Gizmodo - Oct 9, 2023 - with Linda Codega (io9) - Link

Short tease on leaning into the love triangle

About Stede, Edward, and Izzy - "I think the three of them are on an arc together that's pretty inseparable," Jenkins said in an interview with io9. "And to watch Izzy try to process what's happened [in season one]… to watch him kind of grow and figure out what's his own story, if he can separate himself from this kind of toxic relationship, is interesting to me and I think gives him a lot of room for growth."

Post 2x04 - 2x05

IndieWire - Oct 12, 2023 - with Sarah Shachat - Link

Discusses directing and show creation

"The limitations of the show also naturally push it back towards moments with the ensemble and plot problems that it would frankly be irresponsible to tackle if you had a giant budget and a fully working ship-of-the-line to sail and then blow to bits. "That's the fun of the show to us, I think. If you open this up and you're like, unlimited budget, that would be terrible because I think you can get seduced," Jenkins said. "[It could be like,] 'Oh man, it's all leading up to a climatic battle on the sea.' And those things are great. But that’s not this show.""

"The nice thing about that, though, is you get to be the lo-fi show that’s like, 'Hey, we’re making The Muppets.'"

PopSugar - Oct 12, 2023 - with Victoria Edel - Link

About S2 Stede - "I like the idea that he learns and grows and he doesn't just stay a bumbling captain. He might be ridiculous, but he is getting better at it."

Discusses genre challenges - "How do you have a show that's a romance show but it's also a workplace show and they're criminals?"

Discusses Edward's redemption - "But Blackbeard still has to come back and apologize and be part of the community again, and give his little press conference. It was fun for us to look at that in the context of piracy, where they all do terrible things to each other. But even by their standards, what Blackbeard did was a bit much."

Discusses Izzy in S2 - "When Izzy shoots Blackbeard and they all mutiny on him, that's Izzy breaking up with Blackbeard. And they're both having their own journey in the wake of it, and Izzy's having his own redemption arc. He's trying to figure out, "Who am I if I'm not Blackbeard's first mate? Who am I outside of this relationship?"" + "If Stede's Spongebob, he's Squidward. I don't know what that makes Blackbeard. But there's a real pathos to Squidward."

Discusses trauma-based narratives - "As a diverse room in terms of sexuality, socio-economic background, and race, we thought, "Wouldn't it be nice to have a non-trauma-based story for these characters who don't get that historically?""

Variety - Oct 13, 2023 - with Hunter Ingram - Link

Discusses three act structure and making Stede work for a relationship - "The way I like to look at a season is in threes. The end of the first act is when they find each other, and this is the beginning of the second act. They've found each other, but they are pissed. Stede thought it was going to be [Kate Bush's] “This Woman's Work,” but, in reality, it is this headbutt –– literally."

Discusses the central romance - "It was always part of the pitch... that is the reason to make the show. The pirate genre is fun, but I wasn’t dying to make a pirate show. Taika wasn’t dying to make a pirate show. But the thing that was interesting to me was that Stede finds love, and he finds it with Blackbeard."

Discusses 2x04 plot - "This episode is based on a very, very thumbnail sketch of "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?." Anne and Mary are Martha and George, and they are Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton."

Discusses adding historical pirates

Discusses Buttons exit - "I just love the idea of him turning into a bird: I love the idea of Buttons somehow being the one character that is able to figure that out."

Discusses Izzy and the crew's trauma plot - "We liked the idea that there is something about trauma and getting past that trauma, even on a pirate ship. They have been through two very different ways of living and they have to get used to each other again. But it's also a family that was separated, and becoming one family again is painful."

Discusses bringing characters back - "We could bring Calico Jack back, who, if you remember, was hit by a cannonball last season. Anyone who is that fun to play with and wants to keep playing, you always find a way to bring them back."

Polygon - Oct 14, 2023 - with Tasha Robinson - Link

Discusses 3-season arc and how keeping them apart with some plot device was never in the cards - "at the end of the first season, they're 14-year-olds, emotionally. In this season, it's more like they’re in their late 20s."

Discussing New Zealand production and ensemble cast writing - "It's pretty organic, because as we're going through and tracking everybody's journey for the season, we're watching the thing that holds us together — what stage of Stede and Blackbeard's relationship are we in? Because the overarching arc is, are these guys going to learn how to settle into a relationship?"

"The second season is more overtly about romance, and more a relationship story."

Energizing aspect of fan reaction

S3 is about "love is work"

Gizmodo - Oct 16, 2023 - with Linda Codega (io9) - Link

About the story - "I want to see them become a functional couple or fail to become a functional couple," Jenkins said. "Those are the most interesting parts of the show."

Discusses fandom engagement - "...ultimately the writers are also "the fans in the room." He goes on to say that, "We're fans of the world. We're writing fanfic about our own characters, our own worlds… It's paid fanfic, but it's fanfic." He gives another example: "If you're writing a season of Succession, you're writing fanfic Succession. You're just getting paid to do it. We, as writers–" it's clear that he's not just talking about the writers in the writers room, "become fans of the world and we all have things we want to see these characters do. What we do is not that different."

Discusses the A Star is Born aspect of seeking fame / retiring

Discusses Zheng Yi Sao

Villains of the series - There are a lot of new villains this season, but, Jenkins says, ultimately, "the antagonist on this show is normalcy… These pirates have a way of life that they're not finding in normal life. They've found a way to live and support each other and be there for each other. And that's always threatened by these larger, tyrannical forces that want to shut them down."

Post 2x06 - 2x07

Mashable - Oct 19, 2023 - with Belen Edwards - Link

Discussing drag performance in 2x06

"It is nice to see with Izzy's arc, where he finally breaks through whatever he's been doing to himself. He lets himself have that moment, which I just love. It resonates for Izzy, and I think it resonates for Con. Just personally, it made me feel good to see how it turned out."

Consequence - Oct 19, 2023 - with Liz Shannon Miller - Link

Discusses intent for romance - "...telling a love story in a serialized medium like television has its perils, largely because it's tough to know how much you can draw out any unresolved tension. "I think we take it episode by episode and we try to not piss people off in taking too long and doing double beats and triple beats," Jenkins says. "You can only do Will They or Won’t They for so long. Then you have to deepen it.""

Discusses pirate setting - "The emphasis on relationships also fits into the show's high-seas setting, which Jenkins finds similar to post-apocalyptic narratives. "It is a little bit like you're doing Mad Max, except there's relationships," he says. "Stuff's shitty, so you gotta try to find some joy. Of course, people are going to have a need for each other in these extreme circumstances, and I like the idea of these characters finding some level of a healthy relationship in these extreme circumstances.""

Discusses Jim x Archie

Discusses 3-season arc

Polygon - Oct 21, 2023 - with Tasha Robinson - Link

Discussing gender and power dynamics in Jackie x Swede / Zheng x Oluwande / Blackbeard x Stede + A Star is Born aspect

Jim not being jealous of Oluwande - "I think that relationship was always seen in the room as a friend relationship that got romantic."

About adding a villain - "I think a lot of the internal forces in Our Flag are the villains." + "I think this is a story about the age of piracy coming to an end. This way of life is coming to an end. And every Western that's good is that story: This way of life we made is coming to an end, and it can't last. […] I think every story about outlaws is about trying to preserve a way of life against normative forces that are kind of fascistic."

Historical accuracy - "The balance of the show is 90% ignoring history, and then 10%, bring it in, whenever we're like, Ah, gotta move the story forward! Remember, the English are out there, and they're really bad!"

Post 2x08

AV Club - Oct 26, 2023 - with Saloni Gajjar - Link

Killing Izzy was always the plan - "We wanted to show the depth of that character. Izzy is one of my favorites. He's like middle management who is in a sort of love triangle [in season one]."

Discusses how they really wanted the happy ending for S2 - "I think with season one's end, it was a gamble to leave it the way it was. Everybody stomached through it. Now if it turned out they didn't want us to make more, I just didn't want to have another story where the same-sex love story ends in tragedy, unrequited love, or if one or both of them are being punished."

Discusses S2 progressing the 3-season romance - "They’re a couple who is like in their late twenties right now as opposed to being teens at the end of season one." + "It was an interesting tension of, which one gives up their dream? A lot of times in relationships questions can come up, like who is going to give up on their dream to take care of the kids? Obviously, no one wants to, but someone ends up giving up more than they want to at some point. What's wonderful about a mature romance, and what I'd want to see more of in season three, is Ed and Stede making these tough decisions." + progressing past the getting together point

Discusses parallels, Republic of Pirates, and Zheng Yi Sao

Short bit about fan response

Collider - Oct 26, 2023 - with Carly Lane - Link

Discusses Ed leaving fishing - "I like that he had a little prima donna moment where he thought he could go and be a simple man, and then it's revealed that he really isn't a simple man; he's a complicated, fussy, moody guy. No, he's not gonna be able to catch fish for a living. For him to be told that, "At your heart, you're a pirate. You have to go back and do it," he doesn't want that to be true, but it was true."

Discusses Izzy's speech to Ricky - "I wanted to give Izzy a proper eulogy for himself. He gives a eulogy for himself, but it felt true writing it."

Discusses Izzy's death scene - "In a way, it's very much for Ed, that speech. The "we were Blackbeard" is claiming that he is also Blackbeard, that Blackbeard is not just Ed’s creation, and I like that for him, too, because he's worked so hard for that — and then just to say, "You can give it up." There can never be a Blackbeard again as far as Izzy's concerned because he's dying, and they did that together."

Discusses Republic of Pirates / music parallels from premier to finale

Discusses finale wedding - "We knew we wanted a matelotage in the season, which is the real term they had for marrying crew members. And yeah, they've always been in relief to Stede and Ed, and they're a little bit ahead of Stede and Ed in how much they can talk about things. So to have a bunch of family things in the season, like a funeral and a wedding, and have the parents kind of watch the kids sail away, felt right, and all of those things seem to work well together and build on each other."

Discusses retirement ending - "That will-they-or-won't-they is interesting to a point, but the real meat of it is always like, "Can they make the relationship, and can they do better than Anne and Mary?""

"Frenchie's in charge of the Revenge" + teases Stede struggling to give it up

EW.com - Oct 26, 2023 - with Devan Coggan - Link

Discusses Izzy's death and telling Con - "It feels like the logical end of Izzy's arc. It's heartbreaking to me because he's my favorite." + "I told him in the middle of shooting because I didn't want him to find out at the table read, obviously. I also didn't want it to leak. He was lovely about it."

Discusses Izzy's final arc - "You know, I didn't expect him to become kind of a father figure to Ed. I think we hit on that while we were breaking the [final] episode. He's in such a weird position: He's like a jilted lover, and then he's a middle manager who has to work for a terrible boss. He gets thrown away, and then he comes back. He really develops, and he becomes a part of this family. I think the biggest surprise was the extent that he was a mentor to Ed. They were both Blackbeard. They both made Blackbeard happen."

Discusses the happy ending intent - "With this season starting so dark, I kind of wanted to reward them for the work that they've done and the character growth that they've had. I wanted to leave them in a place where they're really going to try and make this work. I don't think it's going to be easy for them, necessarily. They're both still immature."

Discusses the wedding - "We knew we wanted a matelotage in the second season, and pretty quickly we landed on Lucius and Black Pete. It seems like they were ready for that. We made up a ceremony and everything, where they call each other mateys, and it was just fun to make our own version of a pirate wedding ceremony."

Discusses potential S3 and Frenchie's Revenge - "But it felt like a good place to end the second season. It felt like a contrast to the first season. If it turns out we don't make any more, I'm comfortable with that being a resting place."

Variety - Oct 26, 2023 - with Hunter Ingram - Link

S3 endpoint - "I love things in threes," he says. "That first act, second act, third act structure is so satisfying when it is done well, and you don't overstay your welcome. I think this world of the show is a big world, and if the third season is successful, we could go on in a different way. But I think for the story of Stede and Ed, that is a three-season story."

Discusses the draw of a "Golden Age" and it's ending

Talks about father figure Izzy and wanting a real sense of loss - "There is a nice parallel to have Ed treat him so badly at the beginning of the season and then come all the way around to where Izzy is this sort of father figure he doesn’t want to lose — because Ed usually kills his father figures."

Gizmodo - Oct 26, 2023 - with Linda Codega (io9) - Link

Teasing future Izzy - "Jenkins looked slightly sad himself, saying that "Ghosts exist in this world." I told him not to make promises he couldn't keep."

"Jenkins said that he doesn't see Izzy as a pure antagonist in season one because on some level… Izzy was right in his hesitations about Stede."

Discussing Con O'Neill & Rhys Darby acting

Jenkins confirms the season was always 8 episodes due to budget cuts

About S2 finale vs S3 - "The first season ends on such a downer, so it made sense to end the second season in a kinder spot." + "I think there's plenty of story left for season three, but I think that it was important to end this as if it was the end of the show, and on upbeat note and avoid the kind of "kill your gays" trope. I don't want to see Stede and Ed punished for giving it a go. I want to see them really say, 'yeah, we’re going to we're going to try to have a relationship'."

Teases S3 revenge against Ricky and going to the Americas

Vanity Fair - Oct 26, 2023 - with Sarah Catherall - Link

About the ending - "It's bittersweet. There's death and there's the rebirth of Stede and Blackbeard's relationship; there's a funeral, there's a wedding, and the idea that this family is going to keep fighting even as they lose members. And then it's about belonging to something." + "A lot of times, with this narrative of characters, same-sex relationships end on a dour, downbeat note, where one of them dies and it's unrequited or it's unrealized; something horrible happens and they're punished in a way. So it was important to leave it open and a lot more show to go, but also leave it in a place where it's happy."

Discusses Izzy as a mentor / father figure - "We felt like Izzy's story had reached its conclusion, where we put him through enough. And then there was the realization that he is kind of a mentor to Blackbeard and that he is kind of a father figure to Blackbeard." + "And it's also a pirate show, so he's got to die."

Discusses filming challenges - "It's a big show; it's basically a one-hour show that we're doing on a half-hour budget."

Discusses adding Zheng Yi Sao

Is the show a queer romance? - "For this show, it's important to me just to write a really bold-bodied romantic show that happens to be between two characters of the same sex. I think that the story beats don't matter, because if you've been in love and you've been hurt and you met someone you love—hopefully we all know what those feelings are."

Blackbeard's arc in S2 - "...the second season is about Blackbeard's midlife crisis. And then when they both have their midlife crises, they can open a B&B together." + "I don't think Stede and Blackbeard are ready to be married. They're emotionally saying: 'Let's give this a go.'"

Discusses historical piracy as "counterculture" that's been straightwashed and whitewashed

Did he feel responsibility to the fan community? - "As opposed to responsibility, it feels more like relief—that people feel seen and they feel good about it and they liked what we did. And so it feels like, Okay, somebody's out there and wants the show. The makeup of the writers room looks a lot like the makeup of the fan base. So as long as we're true to our stories in the writers room, I think we just feel excited that there's somebody waiting on the other end to enjoy it."

Paste Magazine - Oct 26, 2023 - with Tara Bennett - Link

Discusses whether fandom expectations felt weighty - "I think particularly for this season, that "bury your gays" thing… I didn't want to end on a downbeat for Ed and Stede. We did that in the first season. I like that there's a lot of different flavors. It's even a little melancholy because the Republic of Pirates got blown up. But there's still more good things."

Discusses production and plotting - "I wanted to start at the Republic of Pirates this season and end at the Republic of Pirates. And I knew I wanted the Republic of Pirates to be destroyed, ultimately. Within that, we are making a one-hour show on a half hour budget, on a half hour schedule."

Discusses planning the ending - "In terms of ending this season, it all felt right just in talking through it when we were in the room. It felt pretty intuitive. When you get to the third act of the story, things kind of settle in. There's gonna be a funeral. We always knew we wanted a wedding at the end of the second season. And I knew that I wanted Stede and Ed to start an inn together. So once you have those beats, it's kind of locked in."

Discusses Izzy's arc - "It's kind of a strange arc in that I knew we were going to put him through all these things, and I knew he would ultimately die. But I think him becoming a father figure to Ed in the last episode didn't really dawn on us until we were breaking the last episode. Asking what would this man say to Ed at the end because they've been together through everything? He went from a troubled and downtrodden employee to a jilted lover to a discarded employee, to someone that is just trying to find his footing again—no pun intended—to actually becoming this guy's parental figure on some level. And he's one person who kind of raised Ed right, because Blackbeard usually kills his parental figures. So, it felt right and it felt like that's how the mentor dies. The mentor in a story usually dies in the second act and then our hero has to go on and try to do it without them. It felt like the right journey for Izzy and a gratifying one for Con."

On leaving open for S3 - "I don't think it was a very hard thing to do. I think it was more that I felt a responsibility to leave Ed and Stede in a good place, at least for now. It's not gonna go well. They're not going to run a business well. Ed's too much of a talker. Stede can't focus. It's gonna be challenging."

Vulture - Oct 28, 2023 - with Sophie Brookover - Link

Discussing Izzy as a "father figure" and his S2 send-off being a priority

Meaning of piracy - "...what our pirates stand for is a life of belonging to something larger than they are in the face of a crushing, slightly fascist normalcy."

Re: Con O'Neill & Izzy's death - "I had to tell him about halfway through the season"

Third season about the work of a relationship between still damaged main characters

Discusses middles as about change and transitions, and wanting characters to change instead of reset, have them experience permanent consequences

About the final scene - "...Ed and Stede as the parents kind of watching the kids take the ship. Frenchie's the captain now..."

Objective of the crew - "...have had terrible things happen to them at the hands of colonial forces, so they want some payback. Party, plunder, and payback — the three P's."

Metro Weekly - Nov 1, 2023 - with Randy Shulman - Link

Discusses historical premise of S1 and easing into the romance

Discusses S2 genre - "In the second season, it was great because we know it's a romance and we can lead with that. It's a workplace show essentially. I wanted it to be more in the vein of early episodes of Grey's Anatomy or something where there are all these relationships on those shows. That's what you’re following — relationships and friendships that are taking place in a hospital, procedural. That's Grey's Anatomy. This is less procedural for the pirate stuff — and you need the pirate stuff."

Discusses not being into pirates - "But I'm like you. I'm not a big pirate person. In general, it's a big creaky genre that's hard to budge" + "Pirates of the Caribbean, those movies are great. That's not necessarily what I hunger to see, but in that genre, it's great. You're not going to beat that, especially on something that's lower budget. We've seen a lot of this stuff, so it's fun to take it then and don't do any of that stuff."

Discusses adapting historical piracy - "You don't want to see them punch down. You don't want to see them do terrible things to people who don't deserve it, which is not what they really did. So, in the show's world, I think piracy is like a stand-in for something. I think it's a stand-in for being an iconoclast and an outsider and queer in some ways and just different." + "Yeah, I mean, the British are there to be Stormtroopers, or Nazis in an Indiana Jones movie. I mean, they're in there to die essentially."

Discusses diversity staffing

Discusses performative masculinity

Discusses Izzy's death, happy endings, and openness to S3

#trust me i appreciate the irony of making an extensive word of god reference when i want people to stop blindly promoting word of god #(and also when i'm currently very irritated with the creators)#and fyi showrunners talk A LOT but i was already committed so this was more work than i was expecting #i'll even use a small bit of my extra hour of destiel day to post this (most of it was assembled while watching supernatural)#our flag means death #ofmd #ofmd meta #david jenkins #word of god #ladyluscinia

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o-wild-west-wind · 8 months

Text

okay, here’s my actual thoughtful post: I get why people are upset about the finale…I really do. but I want to mention that there’s a bigger picture to this story that’s missing if you’re zooming too close onto Izzy as a character, and I’m honestly so grateful that the show stuck to the thematic arc it introduced in season 1 because, as per usual, it’s about the themes 🤌 and this show never skimps on the symbolism!!

so here’s the thing: the primary themes are toxic masculinity (& it’s opposite, queer joy); trauma; love as a healing force for the above; and, title alert—DEATH. because it’s so much more than a cool title!

now, Izzy has always represented something metaphorical about all of these points; most directly, he’s always represented masculinity, and s2 has been an arc of toxicity deconstruction. but crucially, he’s also represented all that for Ed, who is the deuteragonist of this show. because—don’t forget—Stede and Ed are the show.

I’ve always doubted myself for feeling this after seeing how fandom saw Izzy as a third romantic figure (which like by all means have a blast in your fanfics I don’t care it’s about joy at the end of the day and pursue that as you want to), but after hearing something about djenks referring to Izzy as a father figure, it confirms a major point for me—Izzy is also in a lot of ways a parallel to Ed’s dad, and a representation of the trauma and guilt Ed felt from that formative killing. for so long, Izzy was an aggressive shadow in Ed’s life, and a tangible reminder of those daddy issues—someone telling him what to do, keeping him Blackbeard—and the beautiful thing is how that changed this season, how Izzy became a version of masculinity that could love and be beautiful and make good from the hurt, the literal poison into positivity. someone antithetical to his own paternalistic force, healing our daddy issues one drag show at a time. BUT, Izzy is still thematically representative within Ed’s arc—and by also representing the trauma that made Ed “Blackbeard,” it does make smart writing sense as to why Izzy died (NOT saying you can’t be sad about it—stick with me for a moment).

because here’s the thing—as aforementioned, this show is also about DEATH. killing is the root of everyone’s trauma, and reconciling a relationship with death is the ultimate arc Ed and Stede are both on, with the ultimate path of learning to live despite its inevitability. there’s a reason it was such a huge thing that Ed couldn’t personally kill, and then in this episode killed so many people with his bare hands in the name of love—and there’s a reason that was framed as a good thing. and there’s also Ed’s (and arguably Stede’s) active suicidality, which has been a huge force driving this season. these are characters who see death as this all-consuming thing, and they see their own deaths as the only solution. death is the traumatic force driving almost everything about their being for so long—and its reconciliation is everything for them, the greatest sign of growth. so Izzy’s death, and everyone beginning again with love—healing each other with love—is a cap to it all. it’s death as a positive force, for once. it’s death as love, not trauma. it’s death as something that will always happen, but this time not forced by your own hand. it’s a death to everything toxic, to what “Blackbeard” represented, and all the while a sort of rebirth. it’s kind of a death to…death? it’s functionally like the real physical moon replacing the giant romantic imaginary orb: it’s taking the thing that’s been artificially morphed in Stede and Ed’s heads and making it real this time, with all the bittersweet emotions that come with tangible reality.

and honestly, I’m glad that it was tragic and emotional. I didn’t think I’d be so devastated to see Izzy die, but it really did get to me, especially because of everything he said to Ricky and then to Ed. but think of it this way: Izzy and Ed might be romantically compelling because they were toxic and charged (and I hope people still enjoy everything they get from that dynamic in fan work), but imagine if the show had actually gone in that direction—where would it take us thematically? it would kill the thesis; it would be love as chaos and entertainment, but not healing. instead, this show gave us something so much more powerful: a legitimate, fully-fleshed trauma arc.

trauma hurts. Izzy’s death hurts. but that’s okay. that’s great, actually! it means the storytelling was effective—that Izzy’s arc made you feel something. and i know this won’t be every viewer’s experience, but honestly? I’m glad I can have this grieving process in such a beautifully framed light in the safe space ship of this show, because let’s be real—death, real life death, fucks you up. and let me tell you, I could’ve used this show during so many episodes of grief in my life. but here it is now, reminding us that our grief and trauma doesn’t define us—and WHAT a powerful thing for queer love, especially, to be presented as the thing that heals us all. ESPECIALLY when so much grief and death in this community is woven so deeply with the trauma of our identity.

so grieve as you need to, but don’t forget to turn the poison into positivity 💛 because that’s what the show is telling us—choose live, despite!

#djenks out here paying my therapy bill yet again #I feel like I need a million disclaimers for this post so just assume I’ve said all of them #and remember that art that hurts isn’t always a bad thing!#I didn’t think I’d have coherent thoughts yet I swear I blacked out and wrote this here we are #ofmd #ofmd season 2 #ofmd s2 spoilers #ofmd spoilers #our flag means death #ofmd meta #tw: death #death #tw: suicide #suicide

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lover-of-mine · 25 days

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Have you done a color/structure(?) analysis of Buck's coming out to Eddie scene? If you haven't, could you? I just love your other ones, and that one has been niggling at me, but I don't know if there's anything there.

Okay, this took me longer than I expected because I had a weird weekend but let's do it now oaksoaksasas

The first major thing about the scene is that it is a blue and yellow scene (I have a theory about the blue and yellow you can read here) because they are playing with the sun around Buck and Eddie a lot this season, the locker room, the basketball scene, the coming out scene, that new locker room still Tim shared, even the buckley diaz family scene in 707 so that's important no matter what they are actually trying to accomplish there, if it's a reference to the way Oliver keeps saying Buck is looking for light or if queer romance has its own color combo, it's a thing and I think that the way they keep adding blue and gold/yellow to buddie scenes this season means they are absolutely doing something with it, even more considering the will reveal is very explicitly blue and yellow and we all know that scene is a key scene for the 2 of them in terms of romance.

But like, even the labels of the beers they are drinking are blue with yellow detailing, so pretty much every aspect of the scene is in that color scheme. The beer is also interesting because of the beer they usually drink being yellow and that they focused a lot on last season, going as far as making a point of showing a scene where Eddie is turning the bottle so we can see the label in 613.

Two things that feel inconsequential but are almost definitely absolutely completely on purpose in the scene are the way the shade of blue Buck is wearing is the same shade as his eyes and the way Eddie's phone has a black phone case the phone itself is green.

So not only are we dealing with the blue and yellow they are establishing, but we also have blue and green aspects going on here, tho arguably very muted. (blue and green masterpost) but this is just a detail I wanted to point out aopskloaksa

Going back to the beers, I will be honest, I keep trying to find a pattern in the scenes where they open the bottle for each other. It seems like they don't open the bottle for each other when they are discussing a problem outside of their relationship with each other? Like, Buck opens the bottle for Eddie in the kitchen scene in 309, Eddie opens the bottle in 612, and those two scenes lead to them talking about their relationship in a sense. But they just hand the bottle closed to each other in 312 when discussing the skateboard incident, in 504 when discussing Chim leaving, and Buck does hand Eddie the bottle closed during the coming out scene which is ultimately not about their relationship, although, Buck does hand the bottle while it's open to Eddie in 613, but they don't show Buck opening said bottle so I kinda think there's something to be said about the action of opening the bottle for the other in scenes they are opening up to each other about each other.

Something major about the scene is also the framing and positioning of them in the scene. I made a framing meta with most of their major scene at some point during the hiatus, you can read it here, but something about the 2 of them is that they tend to be on the same level while talking about Eddie's problems, they are both sitting down (that's even exemplified in 705 with the gym scene) and they seem to have Buck sitting down and Eddie standing up when talking about Buck's, so Buck is physically looking up at Eddie. I have an admittedly confusing post about Buck and the looking up thing you can read here because I touch on emotional scenes for Buck that don't involve Eddie if you want more thoughts.

The whole looking up thing is interesting for many many reasons, but mainly because, one, Buck is a big guy and Oliver is the tallest person in the main cast, so he's usually the biggest person in the room, so having him sitting down is a way to make him have less power in the scene in a sense. There's also the way that Buck as a character likes being in high places, he sits at the counter, the chills on top of the firetruck, he sleeps in a loft, he likes being physically high.

But there's also the way the show tends to give Buck the high ground during emotional scenes. Both figuratively, like having him stand up before yelling at his parents in 404 or having him be the only one standing up when he tells the team about Daniel in 405, and literally, like in 316 when he's talking to Maddie about being the one who's always left behind and breaking up with Taylor in 518.

It's also interesting because Buck mostly looks up his love interests, there are exceptions to this, he has scenes looking up at Bobby even though most of their heart to hearts they tend to be on the same level, both standing up or both sitting down, but he looks up at Taylor and Abby and Ali and Eddie and I think that plays into the way Buck wants love to fix him, so he doesn't want balance, he wants answers. But this is a problem when you think about it. Because that creates an emotional imbalance between Buck and Eddie. It physically exemplifies the way Buck's admiration of Eddie clouds his judgment when it comes to Eddie. He expects Eddie to have the answers. He blindly trusts Eddie and in a romantic setting, that's bad. Buck can't really expect Eddie to be right all the time or just accept anything Eddie decides, because then their relationship is unbalanced, then Eddie is controlling it and a romantic relationship can't work in these circumstances.

But this scene actually breaks that pattern twice: Eddie is looking up at Buck while they are talking about Marisol and Buck actually sits down before telling Eddie it was a date.

This is huge. Monumental. Incredible. I have been waiting for this for SO LONG. Because Buck needs reassurance from Eddie here, but he is not looking at Eddie for guidance, he's looking at Eddie for acceptance. And that's what he's getting. Proof of Eddie's unconditional love. And Eddie needs Buck to just tell him how to fix it while being very irrational about the whole situation and Buck is being the voice of reason.

Also about the positioning in the frame, something media does to let people know the characters are not standing on the same side, to give that impression that they are in different places in the scene during a close-up is to place the characters on different sides of the frame, even in the beginning of the scene, they are on different sides. (Guide down the middle to help visualizing)

But when they are actually talking about it, they are both in the middle of the frame. Another scene they do this is the will reveal, during the will reveal they tend to both be in the middle of the frame. And that kinda gives this idea that they are seeing eye to eye, that they are on the same side. I have a whole meta explaining how they used this effect to show Eddie letting Buck in during his breakdown era, you can read that one here.

BUT, interestingly enough, Eddie actually leans away from the middle when they are talking about Buck dating Tommy besides the general concept that that means Buck is also into men, while Buck stays in the middle. That can absolutely represent a way for Eddie to distance himself from it in a sense, that while he is fine with Buck being bi, he's not all that fine with the concept of Buck actually dating Tommy even though he is encouraging Buck to go after him, but that's just a theory to back me and my Eddie fell first and has accepted he can't have Buck tendencies. I think that's also backed by the way Eddie is maintaining eye contact from the moment he realizes this is something important for Buck, but he does break that eye contact when Buck tells him he can't stop thinking about Tommy, almost like he needs a second to believe what he's about to say.

Another interesting thing is the way they had Eddie ready to leave and Buck doing his little ducked head Eddie smile while Eddie leaves, so Buck seems fine with the way the conversation went, before having Eddie turn back around to hug Buck.

He reaches the door, realizes he's forgetting something, and strides right back to demand a hug, which considering 703 when we have Buck stopping to thank Tommy then running after Eddie, and Eddie being about to run back to Marisol and a relationship he doesn't really want to be in, the way he stops in his tracks to go back to Buck, kinda poetic when you think about this way, I think.

I think there's a lot to dissect when it comes to the actual wording of the scene too. Eddie saying "this doesn't change a thing between us" is very on purpose, if Eddie had said anything instead of a thing, it would have had a different effect. Not changing a thing when, one, we all know it will change it because buddie is coming, and two, even if we didn't know buddie is coming, this has the potential to fundamentally change the nature of their relationship eventually and the show loves to prove Eddie specifically wrong, but even then, would adding romance actually be changing anything between them when they are already life partners? This fundamentally changes them but also doesn't change them at all. Also the way Buck says "that's a relief" sounds almost as if he was expecting Eddie to say something else.

Also, love the way we got another roundabout way for Eddie to say he loves Buck but this time he actually said the word love "he'll love you like we all do" thank you, Eddie, for finally using the word.

Also love the way Buck is just taking deep breaths through the conversation because this was something that was stressing him out and it going well makes him breathe easier because he needs Eddie's acceptance in this.

I think these are all my thoughts on this scene, at least is all I can think about right now, so, as always, if you read this I love you 💜

#911 #911 spoilers #911 meta #i really need a tag for asks #anon 😌#sorry this took so long i legit started to collect things to make this when you sent the ask #i was just all over the place over the weekend to actually sit down and write this #but yeah #these are the thoughts #buddie #buddie thoughts

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chirpsythismorning · 1 year

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Skam show-runner Julie Andem clocking the fuck out of Mike being queer-coded in s1 of Stranger Things, and then using it as inspiration to queer-code Isak in s3 of Skam can be something so epic.

THIS! THIS is what I'm talking about!

In ST, there are two scenes in s1 (pretty/still pretty) that milkvans use as irrefutable proof that Mike has always had romantic feelings for El, with the primary object in the scene being a mirror.

THIS. MEANS. SOMETHING.

Mirrors in film mean something more often than not, but especially when they are the focus of a scene is when they definitely mean something. And the way they go about it differently in between those two scenes in ST, drastically differently, and considering the subject matter is very very queer coded, is how you really know there is a significance in this case.

And that scene above from Skam proves it.

Because apparently, another filmmaker watched ST, picked up on those odd details surrounding Mike and said shit I'm gonna use that...

Notice how Isak here, a gay teenager who is fully in denial with others and himself, to the point where he makes really homophobic remarks often, gets caught denying a bunch of girls as being attractive in a conversation with his friends. And so now they're questioning him and making him feel on edge bc the focus is on him and his attraction (lack thereof) to girls.

While his friends aren't even implying he is gay in this moment, it's just them genuinely being confused why he doesn't think any of the girls they think are attractive are attractive, you can still see that Isak starts to feel the pressure and so he latches onto the first girl he thinks of, Emma.

Emma just so happens to look like Natalie Portman with her extremely short hair.

Low and behold this very girl enters the room shortly after he says this and so now Isak has to face this and give his friends the impression he is fully interested in this girl, otherwise they would DEFINITELY suspect something is off. And so he goes all out.

He outs himself.

He literally says Don't you look like that boy from Stranger Things, and then follows it up with saying he would only be attracted to her if we're assuming he is attracted to boys, only to quickly backtrack and start to approach her really flirtatiously, then going all out by making out with her.

As this happens, he is kissing her in the bathroom, in front of a mirror...

Now I want to make clear, I am not saying ST was inspired by Skam. I'm pretty sure I did make that clear, it's actually the other way around, which is even more incriminating arguably.

S1 of Stranger Things came out in 2016, whereas s3 of Skam came out the following year in 2017. The hype for ST was so immense, to the point where you had Norwegian teens referencing it in everyday conversation.

The creator of Skam took scenes from ST that framed Mike very peculiarly in s1, and used it as queer-coding for a character that ended up being revealed as gay.

For those that haven't seen Skam Norway... Run. Leap. Drive. Teleport. Do what you have to do and go watch it. It's not available on any streaming, in fact it's only available online through fan-sites outside of where it's based. Conveniently, all 4 seasons with English subs can be found HERE.

Basically this show is amazing and you need to watch it. Some seasons I like more than others. But the gist of it is that every season focuses on a different character from the main group, where they experience some sort of misunderstanding/miscommunication that leads to them being misinformed about certain things, followed by them making mistakes and having doubts, though it tends to end in a way that feels so refreshing compared to what we're used to.

Skam also translates in english to shame, so the idea is that there is an arc surrounding some form of shame every season.

With Isak in particular, he's the focus for s3, though his arc starts to become more clear as early as the end of s1.

Eva, the character in focus for s1, borrows Isak’s phone to call someone, and ends up seeing that there's gay porn in a bunch of his tabs on his browser. Their friend Noora also witnesses this and she ends up being the focus of s2.

Throughout s2, we get even more blatant hints that Isak is gay and in love with his best friend...

So it's established pretty early on throughout the series that Isak is queer and in denial about it, but it isn't until s3 that he himself is able to confront it.

The way they go about this arc, with Isak having unrequited feelings, is exactly how ST would have done it IF Mike hadn't returned Will's feelings.

So if you're looking for more byler proof, go watch this show and see how they don't let Isak pine over his best friend Jonas for more than 2 seasons.

When the story finally puts Isak at the forefront, they give him his own love interest instead of keeping him pining for his friend. It's really pure and amazing and TBH I would have been fine if ST was framed this way, with it being clear from the beginning Isak's feelings were unrequited, and with the other half of the series focusing on him moving on and finding love himself, and also with his best friend and him still being very close.

Although Isak has that queer-coding from the very beginning, with him looking at his friend all fondly, he is still not able to confront any of it. The following season he dates a girl and is a little over the top about it, though we can also see that he is struggling despite not wanting to face it. It isn't until s3 when the story shows us his inner struggle at the forefront, that we see him finally confront it and accept it.

For those that don't know, Skam also loosely inspired the Nick Nelson gay test scene... So we have character that despite showing many signs of being queer, to the point where we know he literally watched gay porn, is still finding himself in a situation where he's taking gay tests 2 years later....

While he might have the knowledge deep down, he was not willing to face it. In fact he was doing everything he could to avoid confronting it.

But then he falls in love and suddenly it's not something he can ignore anymore...

#byler #stranger things #mike wheeler #isak valtersen #skam norway #this show is sooo good please watch #mike experiencing queerness at a young age #not understanding it #not willing to confront it #until he starts having feelings for a boy #and how those feelings play a crucial role in Mike confronting and accepting his queerness #and when in s5 he finally faces it and accepts it and can finally pursue Will the way he wants to #out and proud #we’ll see him finally being happy and true to himself #instead of grouchy and distant

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itsclydebitches · 1 year

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ted's, "it's not about me. it never was"

and all I felt from trent was, "oh, but it was"

I thought trent was going to stick to his word and tell ted why he was wrong...

but I guess ted just summed up his outlook and something trent so loves him for, so trent couldn't deny ted's wish. but there's got to be a future out there where, while still published as "the richmond way," trent still goes on and tells ted why, for trent, ted was entirely wrong about that.

I feel like in the show I want Ted Lasso to be -- and, crucially, the show I thought it was; the show it arguably should have been based on every other episode that came before this -- Trent would have corrected him. Because this is not an acknowledgement that Richmond doesn't belong to Ted, or even Rebecca, which is a reminder that I like. Ted allowing the fans to sit in on the practices and Rebecca selling portions of the club to people like Mae highlights the heart of the team, that this club "means something" to the community, to quote Trent. However, the book is explicitly, specifically about this particular season of football and how Richmond came to have their Cinderella moment... which is all due to Ted. I get why "Believe" is framed as the fourth factor in Total Football (and frankly I think it would have been a better title for Trent's book if he had to reject The Lasso Way), but belief is only the end result of the work Ted has done. Anyone could have waltzed into Richmond and said, "Believe in yourself!" but it wouldn't have done a damn thing because it was the unique approach of The Lasso Way that taught everyone what belief really means. Ted is the fourth aspect because it is only through his methods that generic concepts like Belief, Friendship, Trust, Compassion, etc. become understood well enough to be implemented despite the obstacles.

So yes, I think Ted is wrong. Trent isn't arguing that Richmond belongs to him, he's arguing that Ted irrevocably changed Richmond for the better... which is true. But the finale doesn't commit to that argument because, frankly, the finale commits to VERY little that the rest of the show lays out.

Ted Lasso spent its whole runtime arguing for Roy/Keeley and then dodged it at the last moment.

The finale argues strongly that Rebecca is already a metaphorical mom to the team and the fans, but then throws in a literal, blonde-haired blue-eyed daughter in at the last second.

The show has consistently framed Beard/Jane as an abusive relationship -- from Higgins intervention to Beard talking to God about his addiction to "pain" -- but the finale irrevocably fames this as true love instead.

Our wonderful queer plot-line made it clear that Colin was too scared to kiss his fellow after a game because that would out him as the only pro, queer footballer... and then he just does it anyway. Which I'm not upset about on its own, to be clear, rather I'm upset that there was no setup for why Colin's feelings changed; why he's suddenly willing to shoulder an understandable, HUGE downside.

The finale argues VERY strongly that Ted should not go back to Kansas. In fact, I plan to write a whole damn essay on that. He's clearly not himself, Rebecca is begging him to stay, Beard is staying and is in tears over the idea of betraying him, they haven't won the whole thing yet which provides a practical reason for him to stick around, Ted literally questions whether he's making a foolish, horrible choice as he's sitting on the plane... and then he does it anyway.

This finale is chock-full of choices that don't match up with what the rest of Ted Lasso has written, or even something from earlier in the finale itself. When Trent says that he's going to push back against any criticisms and explain why they're wrong, outside of the jokey "I'm a passionate writer, an ~artist, who is a little on the arrogant side," it sets up a moment for Trent to indeed correct one of them about their view of the book. After all, he's been the observer all season and arguably has a more objective understanding of what's been happening around him than they do. We've already seen it! Trent stops Ted and (accurately) explains how no, he hasn't changed tactics. You've been doing this for three years. I can see that even when you can't.

The show sets up the moment where Trent will explain that Ted is the foundation of Richmond's success and, presumably, helping him come to terms with staying here.

... and then we never got that.

There were honestly so many parts of the finale that I loved, but most of them were details like the Sound of Music farewell, or putting the "Believe" sign back together. Structurally, one of the few things I really bought into was the team winning the West Ham match and losing the league... which was unfortunately soured after the fact because that now reads as the PERFECT excuse for Ted to stay another season, yet he doesn't. I'm trying so hard not to read the whole thing pessimistically given how many of those details I loved, but when the core plot of the episode has so many problems, damn is it difficult. Other than Rebecca, it felt like the whole cast, Trent included, just gave up on Ted and given my very strong feelings about Kansas I wanted to shake the episode by the shoulders and go, "Stop acting as if this is a good thing just because this is what the writers originally planned! Did you learn nothing from HIMYM??" There are these moments, like with the book note, where you get this sense that everyone is respecting Ted's wishes, but that they thoroughly disagree with them, and the show never hits the point where Ted's viewpoint is appropriately challenged in a way that would make him reconsider. Despite the fact that Ted is a character who frequently needs to be challenged due to limited, inaccurate perspectives brought on by his anxiety (this season gave us "Find out before you freak out" as a big example). I legit had hope for a moment when Sharon showed up, thinking that Ted's therapist of all people would be able to articulate why giving up his family/support system to play his mother's approved version of fatherhood might not be the best decision... but, like so many other aspects, her return didn't amount to anything other than a wholesome callback.

It's a tragedy, frankly. As in, the genre definition. Everyone in the Ted Lasso cast is living the Rom-Com ending of found family, new romantic relationships, and bright, happy, humorous moments... except for Ted himself, staring pensively into the camera as he comes full circle, back to where he began. Back in Kansas. Back (non-romantically) with a woman who doesn't like him very much. Back trying to be a perfect father because that's what's expected of him + that's what his trauma demands of him. And now he's dealing with Jack, no Beard, no American football, no professional soccer, no visits as the rest of his family undergoes major life changes. Just Henry and the reminders from Season One that you're allowed to be a goldfish. After all that growth Ted has gone backwards.

I said before that obviously they were setting up the Kansas ending -- I'm not saying it came out of nowhere, not at all -- but I really don't understand how anyone can watch that and not feel depressed as hell about it. Ted Lasso is a show that consistently left me feeling good and hopeful and nearly giddy with pleasure. It says something that after finishing yesterday I mostly just felt hollow.

#Ted Lasso #Ted Lasso spoilers #mymetas #Trent Crimm

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moghedien · 2 years

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Queerness, Contamination, and the Neurosis of Shirley Cohen

In a show full of queer characters, Shirley Cohen initially seems like she's someone set up to be an internal problem for the Peaches' queers. Shirley is the first character that we see really be openly homophobic in a way that's immediately recognizable. She is also immediately established as a character that’s riddled with anxiety of every variety, and she is honestly one of the first characters I found to be genuinely relatable to my experiences. I found myself instantly liking Shirley even though she’s a character that is meant to be laughed at, and even as her homophobia became more and more apparent. By the end of the season, I feel like a lot of viewers probably have run the gambit of emotions when it comes to how they feel about Shirley, but my feelings have been generally consistent throughout. The only thing that was really changed is that I find her more interesting and relatable as the show progresses. I like her more, but not differently, and she is genuinely a character I find fascinating. So let’s explore why that is.

Now, as said before, Shirley is immediately established as a character with some form of neurosis. The first scene she’s in, she’s stretching next to Jess and after Jess spits next to her she comments on Jess spreading germs.

After the tryouts, we see her and Jess in the bathroom talking again. Shirley is complaining about her performance and blaming it on the fact that she didn't perform certain rituals while going to hit. This ritual can be seen basically any time throughout the season when Shirley is at bat. Later on, when they arrive in Rockford and Shirley and Carson are roommates, Shirley says that she picks up on the energy of others easily, suggesting that she’s made anxious by other people being anxious.

All of this immediately established Shirley as someone with some very active neurosis going on. She is abnormally afraid of germs. She has rituals she has to perform in order to do something properly. She becomes very affected by other people’s reactions to things, and she’s aware of this. I am largely against diagnosing fictional characters with specific mental illnesses unless that is clearly the point of the text, and I’ll refrain from stating anything outright certain going on with Shirley here. But I will say that as someone who has had obsessive compulsive disorder their entire life, these symptoms feel somewhat familiar.

Regardless, it's clear that Shirley has anxiety, and it's largely played off for humor. I’m actually largely happy and ok with that. It feels more like laughing at the ridiculousness of the things she’s anxious about more than laughing at her specifically or belittling her for having these issues. I feel like it's an important distinction to make here, because anxiety is largely ridiculous in my experience. It’s something that doesn’t make sense and acknowledging that is important to actually being able to not be affected by it as much. I like that in Shirley and I like that about her eventual arc and her overcoming her fears. But regardless of how it’s portrayed, let’s look at her issues.

Germophobia as it pertains to anxiety disorders (like OCD and other disorders that cause obsessive thoughts) is generally misunderstood. Typically it's not exactly the fear of disease that causes germophobia to manifest as a symptom, but the fear of contamination. That sounds like the same thing, but it really isn’t. A fear of contamination is much broader and germophobia is only one thing under that umbrella. Arguably, Shirley being afraid of the other girls’ energies can be categorized as a fear of contamination. It isn’t a physical illness she’s afraid of, but she’s afraid of being affected negatively by their presence. Another one of the earliest ways you see this fear manifest is when she’s explaining dangers of canned food.

Botulism specifically is the perfect thing to latch onto and be terrified of if you have a fear of contamination, given that it literally comes from contaminated food. Generally though, it's not common if you take the right precautions. Shirley however has decided that the only way to avoid botulism is to avoid anything that even has the slightest possibility of giving her botulism. It's not just dented cans that she avoids, but cans in general, since she doesn’t differentiate here. Dented cans specifically are only brought up by Carson later on.

Now, this fear of cans seems to be a very deep seeded anxiety for her. It clearly came with her from her life before the Peaches, so we don’t get to see the beginning of that. With persisting anxieties like this, they’re almost never as bad from the beginning as they’ll eventually become. There’s a sort of spiraling and build up that happens over time if the specific anxiety isn’t dealt with and is allowed to persist. We don’t see the beginning of her fear of botulism, but we do see the beginning of another fear she has, and this too falls into the category of contamination.

This is the first time that Shirley says anything homophobic, and it’s not the most blatant of comments, really. It’s more of a remark of Jo being masculine, and while it’s shitty, it’s one comment that she makes and then doesn’t really dwell on in her dialogue. The fear of Jo being queer isn’t what actually convinces Shirley to change the room assignments. If she's afraid of being contaminated by anything here, its the perfume that Carson claimed would trigger her allergies.

Shirley clearly had these thoughts about Jo before this conversation with Carson, and she didn’t seem to have an issue rooming with her until Carson mentioned something about her perfume. And that’s not even getting into the fact that if Shirley and Carson switched, Shirley would be rooming with Jess, who is extremely butch presenting, and she didn’t seem to have an issue with that. Carson herself had to come up with an excuse for why they shouldn't do a one way roommate swap.

Even then, it's clear that queerness isn’t so much an active threat to her at the moment. Shirley goes to see about the room changes herself and talks to Jo about the idea without even being asked to, and specifically says that she wants Carson “safe.” Whether that is safe from the queerness or safe the perfume isn’t clear, but I’m personally leaning toward the perfume, since Carson mentioned it bothering her and in this moment, Shirley doesn’t seem concerned about catching the queer.

However, catching the queer is clearly something that Shirley dwells on for some time, because as the girls are getting settled into the convent, she brings up the topic with Maybelle.

This, my dear readers, is what an obsessive anxiety spiral looks like. This is what it looks like when you have fear brought up (in this case being contaminated with perfume that would harm Shirley) and having it connected to an unrelated thought (Jo being queer) and having your brain combine them and make you very afraid of it.

Shirley had one random thought about Jo being masculine and that turned into her being seen hours later, visibly anxious and worried about Jo being queer and the fact that queerness supposedly spreads. She wasn't afraid of this when she spoke with Carson, but some time between then and now, she considered the fact that she might catch queerness from Jo.

Throughout the show, Maybelle is shown to be ok with her queer teammates and she’s shown to be very close to Jo. It’s very likely that she wouldn’t entertain Shirley’s conversation much here in order to protect Jo, regardless of whether or not she knew that Jo is queer. What can be certain is that she didn’t give Shirley an answer to this that satisfied her enough to stop thinking and worrying about it, because we see days later that Shirley is still concerned about it.

Now, Shirley is bringing this to Carson as if its completely new information, meaning that the comment about Jo on the bus wasn't necessarily meant to indicate that she's queer. Shirley is also clearly obsessing over this, because while fixating on Jo, she ignores that that are other very visibly queer people on the team. Jo was just the one that got brought up, who she made the initial comment about, so she's blind to seeing anyone other than her as the source of contamination here. Jo is the one that she's convinced might make her queer.

So Shirley isn't helped by Maybelle and so she goes to Carson about the issue. I'm not blaming Carson here, but her actions do make things worse. Carson is so concerned about outing herself or Greta that she doesn't really address the concern Shirley has in a way that would make Shirley stop. She just tells Shirley that they'll "get to the bottom of it" and then leaves, probably hoping that Shirley never brings it up again. However, to Shirley, this indicates that she should continue to investigate and worry about it. Because now its not only that she’s worried about catching the gay, its that Carson told her that they’d figure it out because she thinks they need to worry about it.

And so Shirley continues to worry about queerness.

Days later she pulls Carson aside to show her a newspaper article about two lesbian teachers being arrested. Again, she mentions the supposed fact that queerness spreads and insists that they can’t ignore Jo, because if they do it’ll kill them (which may be literal death or a metaphor for them being turned queer or just inherent doom).

Carson eventually comes up with a lie that Jo has been sleeping with Dove, and Shirley just immediately accepts that without any evidence. Literally, the first chance she gets to believe anything other than that Jo is queer, she jumps on it and begins coming up with “evidence” to validate the claim. She acts disgusted at the idea of the affair, but it’s apparently also a relief. She doesn’t actually worry about catching the queer again until Jo gets outed after being arrested at the gay bar. Before then, Shirley really believed that there are no queers based on no evidence just because Carson gave her another thing to belief that was comforting. She wants to not worry about it so jumps on the first opportunity not to, and only begins to worry about it again when it's clear that the thing that reassured her wasn’t true.

Now, Shirley’s reaction to having more or less proof that Jo is queer is interesting. She doesn’t actually seem upset about the idea of gayness. She never expresses any outright disgust at the idea of two women being together. The closest she actually gets is telling Maybelle that Jo could have seen her breast, and the way she says it sounds more as if she’s trying to justify being upset to Maybelle.

The thing that she brings up is that she can’t trust people because they might be queer, and that she’s unsafe around them. She doesn’t really express any thought that they might do anything to her. What she expresses is fear that she will be gay.

This could read as internalized homophobia, but I don’t think that’s the case. I think she does genuinely think that it's something that she can catch and she’s afraid of what that’ll mean for her if she does catch it. She tells Maybelle that she’s worried that Jo saw her breasts (something that is obviously true as Maybelle pointed out) because she doesn’t want to say that she might have caught the gay, because then maybe Maybelle will think that maybe Shirley has caught the gay.

Now, this is validated when she eventually finds out that Carson is queer and has been with Greta.

Again, its notable that Shirley never expresses any kind of disgust at queerness itself. Especially since she seems very affected when sexuality in a heterosexual context comes up. She's bothered hours after being left alone with Greta's date, Vernon. She's clearly disgusted that Jo and Dove supposedly had sex and were doing it in front of all of their faces. She's even disturbed when she finds out that Maybelle has multiple kids.

When she finds out that Carson and Greta were actively hooking up though, its not that that actually bothers her. It's that they were queer and she had trusted that they weren't.

Like it really should be pointed out that its not that Shirley is upset that the queer girls might have done something to her. She's upset that she might have caught it from them. This is made completely apparent when she eventually overcomes her fears of contamination by eating food from dented cans and kissing Carson.

Once she tests out her fears and learns that she's not going to catch gayness, she's fine with it. She isn't worried that Carson has been her roommate this whole time. She isn't worried that she now knows that others are queer and on the team and in the locker room with her. It was always just that she was afraid of catching it.

So why is that? Why is that what she's so worried about?

Shirley mentions multiple people in her life telling her that it's contagious. She mentions her cousin telling her this. She mentions her rabbi telling her this. She mentions her mom telling her not to trust women who like sandwiches. Now, I just want to point out that its 1943 and apparently a lot of people are talking to Shirley about queers for some reason. Seems a little weird for the time period. A lot of people are warning Shirley about queers for some reason and the fact that she could become one. Why is that?

Well, it's 1943 and Shirley Cohen is an unmarried woman who is very good at baseball, and that seems to be the only actual outlet she has.

Let's look at this conversation between Greta and Carson.

Now I don't think playing baseball is the only reason why Jo's grandma said she wasn't a real girl, but the point remains. There is stigma now about woman athletes. In 1943, you bet there was stigma. Hell, the entire purpose of Charm School was to weed out those that might play into that stigma and make them all look like queers.

We don't know much about Shirley's life, but we do know that she was very sheltered. She tells Carson that she's never been in public alone before. She tells Greta that she's never been drunk before. She has apparently never been left alone with a man before, and when she has gone on dates, her mother and aunt went with her.

What we know about Shirley is that she is very good at baseball, she has a serious anxiety disorder, her family members and authority figures in her life feel the need to tell her the dangers of queerness pretty often, and she doesn’t want to go home.

Early on, when the rest of the girls suggest that this isn't legit and they'll be sent home soon, Shirley appears immediately distressed. She later wakes up Carson to talk about those concerns. The way she repeats "Can't go home" is almost automatic and pleading. And then when she says "It's not even my chair," it sounds as if she's repeating a phrase that gets told to her often.

We don’t get any more specifics here about Shirley’s home life, but from the comments she makes throughout, it doesn’t seem healthy and she definitely isn’t happy. The only clear outlet she has is baseball, and it seems like maybe her family doesn’t think she should be playing it.

Almost immediately after she mentions her home in this scene, she brings up the article in the newspaper the girls read about their league “destroying womanhood.”

Shirley is the only one that seemed actually bothered by what the paper had to say. The others comment on it being offensive or ridiculous, but Shirley is the only one that actually expresses worry that it might be accurate.

This happens well before she starts worrying about queers on the team. She isn’t worried about the other girls here or that they'll make her look bad, she’s worried about her involvement in the destruction of womanhood. She’s worried about what that’ll mean for her, and if it’ll send her home. And she’s probably worried about what will happen to her after she goes home.

But still, why is Shirley so concerned about whether or not her family thinks she’s queer. What will happen to Shirley if she comes home after catching the gay after she was involved in the destruction of womanhood?

Well, in episode 5, Greta tells Carson about what happened to her first girlfriend Dana when they were caught together.

I’m not sure if this needs to be explained, but “put her away,” means they put her in a mental institution and left her there to rot. And to be clear, this was not an unheard of practice. It happened to women throughout history the moment their family members thought they were difficult or just wanted them out of the way. And it definitely was not uncommon for it to happen to queer women, or women just expected of being queer.

Now Shirley is already neurotic, and her family already feels the need to warn her about being too dykey. And looking back on her conversation with Maybelle, she was apparently told that the only “cure” for being gay was a lobotomy. I see people laughing at that comment, but it's frankly horrifying to me. This show takes place in 1943. In 1941, Rosemary Kennedy (the sister of JFK) was lobotomized for being a bit too difficult for her family’s preference and acting like a 23 year old. Most people that were lobotomized were women, and they really didn’t have to have a reason to do it. Greta’s girlfriend Dana was probably lobotomized, and Greta will probably never know if that’s what happened to her or not.

So with Shirley we have a woman who is good enough at baseball to have been scouted and to have made it onto a professional baseball team, who also has a family that is overbearing and shelter her to the point where she’s never actually been alone, and who feel the need to remind her not to look like a queer or she’ll get a lobotomy, because that’ll be the only way to fix her. And she desperately doesn’t want to go home.

So when I say I am compelled by Shirley through all of her homophobia and that I adored her throughout the entire show, know that I mean that with every inch of my fucking heart. Because here we have a snapshot of a woman with some very apparent mental health problems, whose life has only exacerbated those problems, and who constantly has the threat of the worst thing that will happen to her hanging over her head. And in the end she actively chooses to face those fears and risk that, because the risk is better than being afraid of it forever.

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Other ALOTO essays:

Lupe, Carson, and Gaydar

Greta Gill: Visibility and Isolation

Max in Oz

#shirley cohen #a league of their own #aloto #hi this ended up longer than the one about Lupe #aloto analysis

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wizardpigeon · 10 months

Text

on austinshow (?) in generation loss

(austin viewers pls forgive me if thats not the name he actually uses bc i do not watch him so idk im using the one they introduced him with and assuming its good)

i know a lot of people interpreted austins whole thing with the wife and kids as him being forced to lie by showfall but honestly the whole time my perspective

was that he was actively lying To The Viewers because he knew he'd have a better chance if he appealed to a wider audience/didnt reveal that he was gay,

like, i know he was introduced as

Austin Show | gay

but they cant see that, and the puzzler immediately calls him out for lying, and throughout the episode repeatedly asks him the names of his children and how many he has, which austin fucks up multiple times, so i assumed that he was intentionally trying to mislead the audience to protect himself, and showfall had the everyone prompt him as much as possible (and maybe got him to mention them more himself) in order to point out that something wasn't right about what he was telling us

now, i also want to point out, (and this is from another theory ive seen tying back to the mind control) that austin doesn't have anything on his head, and one theory i saw is that everyone else, barring sneeg until the hat, had something on their head in that episode,

ranboo with their mask

niki, vinny, and sneeg with hats

charlie and ethan with their glasses

rats with masks,

and jerma/puzzler with the prosthetics although that ones a bit more meta since based on charlies commentary it actually looked a lot more real/seamless in person than on camera

but austin isnt wearing anything, and hes arguably the most freaked out, like sure niki is sobbing but she switches the second shes in the spotlight she switches to being collected and upbeat, the only other person we see as visibly disturbed as austin is sneeg during the hat sequence,

throughout the entire carousel scene austin is looking around, visibly nervous, and like others have pointed out, he kept staring at frank, who since the reveal of the filter thing, everyones been pretty agreed on is probably like, a full on rotting corpse that they were just carting around,

so i think that while showfall had some influence on austin, his actions more than anything, they didnt have full control over his words, and they were definitely letting him see at least some of what was going on,

whether they were allowing him to lie and behave so nervously is anyones guess, it certainly makes the program more interesting, but the way he talks so desperately about his many wives and children reads to me as something a queer person would probably do if placed in some kind of saw esque game show where we had to appeal to the largest majority of viewers to survive

i like the way people have taken it as showfall stripping him of his identity, but to me, i read it as them outing him, which, also in my mind works closer with the theme of what fans/fan culture will do to "celebrities" (see kit connor with heartstopper however many years ago that was), and the fact that showfall outed him without care that his situation was dangerous just drives this further home for me

#generation loss analysis #gen loss analysis #genloss austin #austin show #austin show gen loss #generation loss #gen loss #gen loss thoughts #gl austin

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cottagefork · 9 months

Text

I’ve been on a stranger things kick lately so I thought I’d share some of the things I wanna see in stranger things 5:

1. The core 4 boys together again. It has been a HOT minute since we’ve seen them all together, and even then, I feel like their interactions are limited. I want more of their friendship since that’s really what started it all.

2. MORE WILL. I mean let’s be real. He’s one of the main characters and such a vital piece to the story line. I just want so much more of him on screen.

3. Dustin-Erica friendship. Something about these two together is just *chefs kiss* I want more of them together using their nerd powers to save the world.

4. Lucas fighting someone lol. Because my guy beat the SHIT out of Jason. Lucas channels his passions and emotions into everything he does (including beating up an asshole jock to save the world) and I wanna see him kick some ass again.

5. Heartfelt Steve moment with either Robin or Dustin. Steve has had arguably some of the best character growth in the show. However, I still feel as if he has walls built up around him, and would like to see him have some more genuine interactions with people that are NOT with Nancy and NOT romantic. Less of him being the “comic relief babysitter” and more of him being a genuine caring friend pls

6. Robin and Will to be HAPPY. Even if they don’t end up with Vicky/Mike, I don’t want them to spend a majority of the season downtrodden with unrequited feelings. Just because it’s the 80’s doesn’t mean that closeted queer sadness is the only option.

7. Max’s recovery to be realistic. Now I really really hope that we get to see Max again as she is such a great character. BUT, I need her storyline to be realistic. I don’t want the end of episode 1 for her to be magically all ok and ready to go kick some ass right after leaving the hospital. There is some real physical and emotional healing that needs to happen, and I don’t want it to be phony and rushed.

8. A not-so-happy ending. Ok HEAR ME OUT: I absolutely hate it when shows like this wrap up and in the end everyone is all happy-go-lucky and the world is perfect again. NO. I’m not saying I want people to be suffering, or for there to be multiple major character deaths, or for Vecna/the mind flayer /whoever to still be out there. But, I really want there to be an ending that makes me think something along the lines of “they’re broken and bruised, but they’ll be ok”. Not everyone and everything has to be happy and perfect for it to be a good fulfilling ending.

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adnrewminyard · 10 months

Text

a few aftg reddit posts (inspired by @queer-lovebot) for the week leading up to the first chapter of tfc. i’m honestly obsessed with the idea of kevin posting in AITA and receiving unanimous YTA comments

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r/runaway

u/throwaway76428 • 22h

Best excuses?

My (18M) high-school sports coach is starting to get suspicious. I’ve been squatting in abandoned houses for a while but he’s starting to ask questions about where my parents are. Sometimes I sleep in the locker rooms at the school but I thought he didn’t take too much notice. I’ve been telling him my parents are too ‘busy with work’ to meet him for a while now and it’s getting way too repetitive.

Last night at training he told me that it was really important that my parents showed up for our next game. I’m old enough that he shouldn’t be able to call Child Services but I’m worried he might try to get authorities involved. What are your guys’ best excuses to explain why your parents aren’t around?

⬆️ 12 ⬇️ 💬 5 📤 Share

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r/palmettostate

u/bigtime-bowler • 8d

Foxes in for ANOTHER bad year

Look, I love this school as much as the next person but someone has got to say it. They seriously need to do something about the exy team. They’ve always been an embarrassment but since that famous guy came here last year it’s just been hell. The vandalism was one thing, but it just went WAY too far - I even got egged walking through campus on game nights last year.

I thought maybe they’d use some common sense and try to sort out their line up (maybe find some players that are actually good?) but I’ve just heard that the new striker recruit is already in hospital - the school year hasn’t even started yet! They don’t have enough players as it is and the ones they do have are freaks that get more red cards fighting eachother than they do fighting for possession of the ball.

Can they just cut the team’s funding? It probably just gets spent on bailing players out of jail anyway. Isn’t anyone else embarrassed to tell people that the Foxes are their school’s team?

-Yours sincerely, a fed UP sophomore.

⬆️4.6k ⬇️ 💬376 📤

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r/AmItheAsshole

u/Current-Dragonfly-3862 • 4d

AITA for knowing what’s best for my team?

I (20M) have transferred schools (due to personal reasons) recently and joined one of the sports teams. My previous school’s team, which I was a major player in, is the best performing school in the country, if not the world. I’ve been training and studying this sport for as long as I can remember, and I’ve been told my whole life that I am destined to go pro.

My new school’s team is arguably the worst team I have ever seen. A team of blind elementary school students would probably perform better. The players are antagonistic and don’t listen to authority or guidance, the coach recruits based on pity over talent, and the uniforms are horrendous.

I was brought in to the team to offer expertise and help them improve, but none of them can be bothered to put in the work to get any better. It’s like they don’t care, although most of them are relying on the athletic scholarship to keep them at university.

Recently, our new recruit for the upcoming year pulled out of their offer. I’ve been scouring recruitment footage and studying players from high school teams to try and find the best fit, someone who I can use to improve the team’s overall performance. After all my hard work, I finally found the perfect fit. He’s definitely an amateur, but from seeing how he plays I know I can make him one of the best in our district, if not more. The problem is, no one else is that convinced. I’ve put my foot down and demanded we recruit him, and everyone is making a fuss about how much of a “prima-donna” i am.

I know exactly what this team needs and how it can improve, and no one is taking me seriously. Everyone is annoyed with me but it’s too late, we’re flying out to recruit him next week.

None of these guys know anything about winning, and I’m the only one with the knowledge under my belt to actually get us a shot at making it this year.

Am I the asshole for wanting my team to be winners?

EDIT: It’s not narcissism, this team is a MESS. All I want to do is get some sense of teamwork, for them to actually CARE about winning. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to perform well?

⬆️ 15 ⬇️ 💬98 📤

#all for the game #the foxhole court #aftg #tfc #neil josten #andrew minyard #kevin day #palmetto state university #palmetto state foxes #aftg fic

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aliorsboxostuff · 1 year

Note

Hi Alex I hope you're doing alright:) can you do platonic headcanons for Kurt Wagner X genderfluid mutant reader who can bend metal. . ( reader is friendly, smart & introverted ) , I'd appreciate if you include the coming out part

That's it, thank you:)<3

A/N Ahhh platonic headcanons. I always end up writing fics instead of the headcanons but I hope you like this anon! I always love writing for Kurt, that boy has a special place in my heart <3

Trinkets

Tags: Kurt Wagner and Reader, Platonic relationship, Betfriends, XMCU fanfic, Pietro Maximoff, Scott Summers, Jean Grey, Jubilation Lee, Mention of Cherik, Introverted reader, Kurt our fav blue boy, Everyone is gay, probably, definitely, growing relationship, headcanons, coming out

A little Headcanon and story of how you and Kurt became best friends.

Kurt was your tour guide when you first arrived

When Kurt heard about your mutation, he becomes very interested to learn about you (because the only other mutant who can bend metal is the Professors husband and he’s arguably scarier)

Definitely fascinated by Kurt's power and physique in general, gushing about his sharp tail and sharp nails

Both you and Kurt were a bit of a stuttering mess with each other's fascination, but eventually laughed it off as you got closer

Once comfortable in the university, you gravitate towards Kurt most of the time, hanging out with him and his group, mostly with Jubilee, Pietro, Jean, and Scott.

The group calls you the ‘Less Scary Magneto’ and has adopted you into the extroverted group, their 2nd introvert.

Joined Pietro on pulling a prank on Logan, ended up failing, Kurt saved you but couldn’t save Pietro

Never joining Pietro on a prank again unless Kurt joins too

Was so happy when your room is across the half from Kurts, and just a couple of rooms from the others

Saturday nights at Jubilee’s room, hanging out and just unwinding from the busy study week

Paints Kurt's nails with any colors he wants (Kurt does the same for you)

Makes the group little metal jewelry, bracelets, and rings

Sometimes leaves little metal trinkets around Kurt's room

If Kurt comes over to you and asks if you intentionally left something in his room, you’ll just give it to Kurt as a gift

Kurt has a jar full of said trinkets

Definitely do study sessions with Kurt and Jean, sometimes the other three would join.

You once mended a metal seat into the ground to keep Pietro in place because he needed to study for finals. The others laughed when obviously didn't work. You gave up since you can't waste metal chairs.

Spends most of the afternoon in the library with Kurt, reading a lot of books and helping Kurt with any English words he might not be familiar with

Has a favorite part of the library where anyone can guarantee you and Kurt could be found there

Could be found with Kurt in the training ground below the school

Secretly really happy the group doesn't see you as your physical body

When the first Pride Month rolled around in the Xaviers Institute, you were very excited to see how many queer students were.

The students threw a party that first week of Pride, filling the school's gym with snacks and colorful balloons, rainbow decorations, and someone was a Dj there too

Kurt and you were surprised that the Professor and Magneto showed up, but regardless very happy to see them together

You escaped the crowded place when Kurt decided to teleport both of you to the school's roof, the party downstairs still loud

Up with the cold breeze of the evening's air, you came out to Kurt as Genderfluid

Patient Kurt Wagner, Always accepting Kurt Wagner, he pulled you into a hug and was very glad you're comfortable enough to come out to him

Spent the rest of the night with your best friend and pointing out stars

#kurt wagner and reader #kurt wagner x gn!reader #kurt wagner x male reader #kurt wagner #xmcu fanfic #xmen kurt wagner #kurt wagner x reader #kurt wagner famfoc #xmen fanfiction

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entropic-saudade · 2 months

Text

For @wellofdean (we interacted on your post on my main, but I had most of this in my drafts on this account).

Re: My disjointed, hastily verbalized thoughts on The American Dream as queered (and unqueered?) by Supernatural

The thing about Supernatural is that the thing that keeps the boys from being unable to reach The American Dream (a house, a successful job, a nuclear family) is that compared to the systemic issues (and the fact that it’s all a dangling carrot of a construct anyway) that keep most people from reaching it, what prevents them is the fact that monsters exist—at least, this is a premise as outlined by Pilot. These are two white, handsome, (debatably) cis, (arguably not) heterosexual men, and it should be something that should come as easy to them as others presume it should (See: Wishful Thinking). But a demon burned Mom on the ceiling, and then Jess, so that world is not for them.

But then the show does some interesting things.

They align supernatural beings with corporations (Hell and Crowley, Zachariah and Heaven), in S7 they use Leviathan as the literal embodiment of Thomas Hobbes’ defense of capitalism Leviathan, the all-intrinsic, insidious, corporate greed of corporate America. Even a lot of minor monsters who don’t get half-season or whole-season face times face the same underlying issues that hunters and other Americans (and people in general) face: they just want to survive. They want to keep food on the table. It’s eat or be eaten. Often, especially in later seasons (most notably in S15), we see glimpses of monsters living in dumps for houses just living relatively normal lives before the boys come in and kill them. To the monster, society at large and the hunter is what keeps them from their Dream of family and home and stability.

Monsters like Garth, Benny, etc, have to either be reformed or cooperative with humans, or else they face death. (I want to write on Benny and Garth later bc they’re SO fucking interesting, even among the monster archetypes).

Then, consider the fact that, yeah, monsters exist, but they’re just a decoy/byproduct of the fact that there IS an overarching systemic force that keeps them from ever exerting true free will, (note Hobbes’ social contract says we sacrifice a little bit of will in exchange for safety, that’s the condition of society; the safety here being so long as the boys follow Chuck’s stories they’ll forever be reincarnated into the rat race; if they want real free will they’ll no longer be safe from permanent death): God.

So the show in Pilot establishes that the American Dream apple pie life isn’t for them. Sam wants it, but he feels like a freak no matter where he goes. Dean claims he doesn’t want it, but you brush past his layers and you see how deeply he just wants a family and home (which John says he wants for him too, despite being the major force keeping him from it. Of course even without John, the other forces above kick in, because the system keeping them from it is God—John as an absent god figure represents that from the get go). They talk about the “apple pie life” with fluctuating tones of want and disdain throughout the show depending on their circumstances, but any time they get close to tasting it (Sam’s time at Stanford, Dean’s djinn dream in What Is and What Should Never Be, Dean’s time with Lisa, Sam’s time with Amelia—notably those examples stop after the boys get the Bunker, which I have more meta about I’ll RB & tag later, because it’s the closest thing to a home the show allows them to have), it gets poisoned by their past and snatched away by their path to the future.

Which makes the themes of “family don’t end (or begin) in blood” so important. (Though… consider also that most of their found family dies or isn’t shown by the end).

The way they get their American dream— a home (the bunker), a job (hunting, legacies, a hacked credit card), a family (all their found family, including Jack and Cas) is unconventional. In Lebanon, when John “I want this to be over, I want Sam to go to school, I want Dean to have a home” Winchester tells Dean he wanted him to have a home and family, Dean fully accepts and verbalizes that this is the best the life is going to give them. And that’s beautiful, and they’ll do anything to protect that. They make their little found families repeatedly: Ash, who burns down with the Road House; Jo and Cas and Ellen and Bobby, their family photo burned after Jo and Ellen die in AHBL. Every version of family they get is torn apart but they don’t stop, to the point that God literally has to take away everyone- and they still don’t stop fighting.

There’s smaller ‘jokes’ throughout— Dean never getting pie (never getting the apple pie life), Mary’s pie being storebought instead of homemade as representative of the fact that her home life wasn’t “real”— it was borrowed time. Even the pie in finale, is horridly, literally, delivered as a pie in the face. A joke. The apple pie life Sam got in the end isn’t necessarily even because he wants it anymore (Sam tells Dean such throughout, though he’s a little harder to read), but because Dean wanted it for him. The life Dean got in the end was in death.

Going back to Kripke and The Hero’s Journey as presented in his era of S1-5, the ending really subverted the ideas from Pilot. Dean got the apple pie life (and suffered), Sam did the furthest thing possible from normal and TOOK BACK POSSESSION FROM LUCIFER TO JUMP INTO A CAGE HE KNEW HE’D BE LOCKED IN FOREVER to save the world.

Then you get Gamble doing some interesting things with Leviathan/monster as Capitalist force, literally bringing the Campbell in Joseph Campbell back with Mary’s extended family— notably, Sam only fits in among them at the time because he Wasn’t Sam, and Dean feels like an outsider both in Lisa’s home (on the surface he keeps it together, but the life holds on), and among them even when he is hunting. They make fun of him for the traces of the American Dream apple pie life (golf clubs, magazines… even things he can’t control, like the ‘delicate features’ he gets from his mother, who waged a normal life so badly she made a deal with a demon while he inhabited her father’s body—the force that kept her from a normal life. More later on Mary and how she’s revealed to not be able to stop hunting regardless). The Campbells get killed off, and we get Mary in the form of Eve, Mother of All, who likewise is trying to protect her children. Is soulless Sam’s return in Exile on Mainstreet a “call to adventure”, presented as more of the inevitable same from Pilot— one so close that it’s Dean’s fear, that Azazel is back and will continue the cycle with Lisa and Ben? Ultimately, it’s not Azazel, but other demons and the existence of monsters, those pre-existing systemic family forces that keep Dean from his supposed idealized version of a normal life.

Carver’s era does some interesting things with Amelia (whose flashback scenes are so brightly lit they bring to mind the false cheery lighting of Dean’s djinn dream in What Is and What Should Never Be, of the false light lighting in It’s a Terrible Life— to the point that some have theorized the whole thing was a cope hallucination by Sam), with Benny (who I have meta written about elsewhere I need to post on here— but Benny is one of the most self aware, narratively echoed characters who aligns himself with every member of Team Free Will in just a few episodes. The notable/relevant thing here is that like Sam, Benny the blood drinker is a freak among freaks, feeling like he doesn’t fit in anywhere, has no home, and when he tries to find it (Andrea Kormos, Elizabeth in Carencro), he can’t get it either), with even the angels being thrown from the only home they’ve ever known, with Cain and Death and Rowena and God as a broken family with Lucifer and Amara and Chuck-as-God.

And then you get Dabb’s era, bringing Mary Winchester/Campbell back, the chance to unfridge a woman and tearing all expectations about who she is down, never acknowledging her family was also resurrected at one point, the boys living as “Campbells” in Lebanon (which I loved, but the “I have a home and I have a family” gets kind of thrown away by the end), Dean’s “I have a home,” The Heroes Journey even being lampshaded in S15 with the episode with Garth (more thoughts on Garth and how that episode shows the only real American Dream on the show, and he got to keep it, doubly queered by the fact that they’re monsters who are also hunters). Dabb’s finale brought the Heroes Journey story circle back, quite literally in the sense that time is a flat circle and Sam and Dean are returned to their Pilot expectations— right down to their clothing choices in Heaven. (I know some people find that beautiful, and there is a nice symmetry to certain elements, and I understand the need to end the story that way, BUT it’s the broader story and structure and narrative and message that upsets and baffles me— it undoes Kripke’s whole “rip up the ending” bit, the subverted Hero’s Journey from S5, and combined with everything else in the show (not going to touch Heaven rn but I have Thoughts about that too), it sends the message that what meaning you create in life doesn’t matter (the found family (who we don’t see in the finale and barely gets acknowledged. SAM’s new family barely gets acknowledged, his son is a xerox of Dean and his wife is a blur in the background who doesn’t have any family photos in the home), the queered way in which they create the American dream doesn’t matter)— true happiness comes in death.)

Something something “the one thing I want is something I know I can’t have.” Cas’ confession is not only a confession to Dean but a show thesis. To me.

#supernatural meta #meta #supernatural

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