hnstly rn it feels like either tomgreg is either dead in the water or they're coming out of this as partners and there's no in between.

like looking back through n*c br*u*s instagram it's either queer bait or?????

the promo poster and 🤐 caption?

matt mac making the "shhh" ?? ?

ppl interpreting this gif either as the end of all things or the Start of Something New

whatever it is, it seems like we're in for a Big One. like one episode left and still so many unresolved strands and so far a good track record in s4 for tying lose strings.

like ken explaining what happened with con's mom and ewan saying rose died of polio etc etc etc. like at this point it would feel kind of off to leave tomgreg ambiguous?

also the pregnancy arc was added to the show Late which means whatever they had planned for the show endgame? wouldn't necessarily be contingent on tomsh*v baby?

unless they completely changed the series ending?? but also i thought i heard jesse say in the succ. podcast that they 'knew where the ending was headed' even in the first season??

also still no resolution to Greg's Gay Dad, or greg/mattson and really any satisfying ending to whatever the hell happened with the disgusting brothers and 'tell me' etc etc etc

also pretty sure jesse's wrote the next episode and he has a solid allyship track record. ugh. ugh ugh ugh.

lol this started out as a 50/50 toss up tomgreg dead/tomgreg win post but apparently still Delusional tomgreg truther :)

What's frustrating about being a supporter of a mlm ship is the immediate presumption of the shippers' identity as a "cis heterosexual woman" who fetishsizes homosexuality (not that that problem doesn't exist, but that's not what this post is for).

Our identities also include:

Cis gay man

Gay/bi/pan trans/woman/man/enby

Cis/trans polyamorous gay/bi/pan woman/man/enby

Cis/trans gay/bi/panromantic asexual woman/man/enby

On and on, the intersections within the LGBTAI+ community are infinite.

Yet our mainstream media shies away from canonizing mlm relationships on screen, by whatever arbitrary measure deemed correct by the heteronormative power structure, which means bi or pansexuality and gender fluidity can be masked beneath an optically cis heterosexual relationship that is spoken of as queer only in dialogue.

I am a queer person. The argument I most often see is that being in a relationship with someone of the opposite gender doesn't negate a person's bi or pansexuality. This is ABSOLUTELY TRUE in real life. I'm in such a partnership, and here's the thing ...

When I share my queer identity with others and they see my partner of 15 years, the question I get asked is:

"How can you still be ×-sexual if you're in a heterosexual relationship?"

It is as though, by committing to someone who presents as the opposite gender, my lived experience (all the people I loved deeply in the past; the pain of coming out not once, not twice, but three times; the pain of permanently cutting off people in my life) was completely erased. My partner and I are optically viewed as "straight" despite how we actually define our individual genders and sexuality. Despite continuing to feel queer attraction. Despite continuing to remember previous queer loves with incredible fondness. Despite still celebrating with friends in the community and proudly bearing my flags.

This is why I truly believe there needs to be a greater push for more same-sex representation ON SCREEN in the MAINSTREAM. We cannot have authentic stories of the queer experience without it. It is a stepping stone to representing all the other identities that are swept under the rug. There is a big difference between knowing who you are in real life and interpreting what big money media is doing with your identity for the sake of pleasing the heteronormative masses and offering only subtext for the queer community in order to get the highest amount of views. Subtext, which by the way, is immediately dismissed as reading too deeply into it!

Well, guess what? Being queer inherently means reading deeply into subtext. This has been our language for decades. I should know, I'm OLD. Picking up subtle cues was and is part of queer courtship in real life because you absolutely could not out yourself in public. In more than half of the U.S. that is STILL the case!

I have a very close cis straight friend who thought Korrasami came out of nowhere. I had to sit them down and explain all the little cues, including the infamous hairpin in Asami's lips close-up. They remarked, "Wow, that's a lot of work. Is that how it worked when you tried to meet someone in public?"

YES! And it's 2023 coming on 2024, and we still have to go through this extra bullshit cis heterosexual people take for granted! If there is even a hint of queer mlm romance, you know what happens? They either get separated or killed or BOTH!

They are separating us and killing us on screen because we can only exist in subtext and tragedy. And then, when we dare to hope another ship might make it, that finally, we will have our moment in the sun, we are told:

"You weren't baited. Nothing was confirmed. What did you expect? They're just friends. You looked too deeply into it and did this to yourself. You are gross and keep migrating from one gay ship to another, you homosexual fetishsizing misogynistic pervert."

These people take intersectional social justice language and weaponize it against us. They moralize us on our own identities without even knowing who we are or what we've been through. They think we're desperate and delusional for the audacity of hoping we might see a happy ending that reflects us in the mainstream.

I am so, so tired.

thinking about how pretty much every single show with lesbian representation has been cancelled or ended by the network in the last year. it hurts so fucking much to see shows being cancelled that have a huge fan base or killing off lesbian characters without a second thought. it’s not gay shows that are being canceled, no, it is wlw shows. mlm shows have continued to go on getting praise and renewals where shows like first kill, even though they’re cheesy and shitty, that have lesbian main characters one being a black woman and having a half black cast are cancelled. it had twice the viewing of shows like heartstopper, a show with two white gay men leads, that got renewed in the first few weeks of its release. even with netflix setting first kill up to fail by releasing it at the same time as huge shows like stranger things and umbrella academy, it still was a huge hit and had such a loving fan base.

the wilds with a lesbian main couple and diverse female cast literally centered around the concept of girl power. huge and dedicated fan base. cancelled. killing eve lesbian main characters one of them being sandra fucking oh that explores the dark side of ourselves while giving really good rep. one of the most dedicated fan bases i’ve seen. cancelled. and not just that, what could have so easily been a happy ending for the couple was ripped from us in the last five minutes right after the characters finally admitted feelings after four fucking seasons. one of them is murdered right in front of the other.

i can’t speak much to shows like everything sucks and the society because i haven’t bothered to watch them knowing they get cancelled. i don’t want to get attached to beautifully written and relatable characters for some big rich homophobic network to tell me no, no you can’t have this anymore. that’s happened too many times to me. right as the couple is happy and things are okay, one of them dies in front of the other like clexa, villaneve, dani and jamie from bly manor. some don’t even really get the opportunity to get to that point and others are just left with their relationship unfinished, with things left unsaid. and don’t even get me started on queer baiting.

yeah gay shows in general with good representation are fucking hard to come by but i’m sorry. mlm don’t face the same kind of hardships that wlw do. there’s a reason burying your lesbians became such a well known trope. because lesbians in shows die all of the fucking time for no good reason. i wish companies like netflix, hbo, and prime would stop fucking being cowards and admit the real reason they’re cancelling these shows. it’s not because they’re not being viewed enough or don’t have a strong fan base. it’s because they’re fucking lesbophobic i don’t want to hear anything else about it or any bullshit that it wasn’t a big enough hit. it may be the 21st century but lesbians aren’t magically equal even within the lgbtq community. the only place to get good representation these days is from fan made sources like fan fiction and fan art. made by people who understand how hard it is.

it’s where we get to see what we’ve always wanted to see, the characters we love, loving each other and being happy. we don’t have big writers scratching ideas because it “wouldn’t look good or be good for ratings”. we get a world where villanelle and eve lived happily ever after instead of villanelle dying in front of eves eyes and and floating into the abyss. not some bullshit from laura fucking neal who knows absolutely nothing about the characters we know telling us it’s what they felt was right. glad burying your lesbians feels right to people. but in our fan spaces we get to see villanelle make it out alive, we get to see them have a normal life and watch movies together. we also get to see and express what we feel is right with the fuck ton of queer coding in media. we get to see nancy and robin fall in love, emma and regina confess their feelings for one another, and any of the endless amount of amazing ships that we desire. there is a reason we flock to those spaces, it’s where we feel safe, seen, and where we feel like maybe one day we can have a relationship like that, to be loved like that. but it sometimes doesn’t make up for seeing it all play out endorsed by a company and written by people that actually care about representation and their viewers instead of just money. we all want to be loved and feel accepted and seen but sadly, because of the events of the last year, i’m not gonna hold my fucking breath.

sorry this is a lot, i’m just so fucking pissed

*Long post ahead*

Okay, I’m going to go out on a limb here and just say that Byler will happen--if not in volume 2, then most definitely in season 5. I’ve been lurking in this tag for some time, specifically ever since volume one dropped, and I have seen the endless essays of pessimism and doubt that’s been bogging people down. While I share your guys’ doubts to an extent, I can’t fully bring myself to accept that Byler won’t come to fruition this season or the next. I hope my little tangent will provide you with at least some reassurance, because to be honest I’m searching for as much as I can before our hopes are either fulfilled or brutally crushed in t-minus 23 days. I’d like to preface this with saying that character/ship analysis posts are not my area of expertise, but I’ll give it the good old college try. 

Alright-y. So. Season 4. There’s a lot to cover character-wise, but let’s just go right ahead and jump into the meat and potatoes of it, starting off with the dichotomy that is Mike Wheeler. According to Finn, Mike is trying to figure himself out this season, and, as we the audience know, he’s very kind of oblivious when it comes to his and other people’s feelings, and Finn also said Mike was a bit clueless. Up until this point, it seems that Mike’s character arc (vis-à-vis his relationship to El) has been flat and banal. They’re in a precarious place in their relationship right now; a fragile place. Having Mike and El repeat the same break-up-and-make-up storyline from last season is bland, and I don’t exactly see the Duffer brothers going in that direction again because it’s cheap and quite frankly a let down. This is where Byler comes into the mix. Despite the potential backlash it might face--having two main characters in a gay relationship in such a massive franchise--I do believe that it is in no way contrived, regardless of what some vociferous shippers might claim. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. The foundation for Byler has been laid since the very beginning, and if you rewatch the previous seasons you can see the evidence if you make a conscious effort to. Especially on Will’s side. And if you take into consideration the sudden wave of Byler content being churned out by Netflix social media accounts and the actors themselves (looking at you, Noah Schnapp), it becomes increasingly apparent that they are trying to warm the general audience up to the idea of Byler. Hell, I’m convinced Noah and Finn have had barely any press together because they’d be giggling and twirling their hair if the ship was so much as mentioned. Either this is some elaborate queer-baiting scheme (during pride month, too), or we’re genuinely getting Byler. But I digress. What I find particularly interesting, and what really has me convinced of the ship happening, is the amount of heart-to-hearts Byler share this season. The bedroom talk, the talk on top of the car, (and the leaked talk in Hopper’s cabin). Those talks feel emotional. Special. It feels like the dynamic of their relationship is beginning to shift, and what that entails has yet to be clarified until volume two comes out (get it? ha). It feels like it’s all building up to something, like a big reveal. But we’ll see when we get there. For now, I’ll just let the open closets next to Mike Wheeler speak for themselves. 

Before going any further into my excessively long post, let’s touch more on Mil*ven. A wedge has been intentionally driven between Mike and El for the second time. It’s undeniable to shippers on both sides, although the explanations for why begin to differ from there. Mil*ven’s relationship has been somewhat tenuous this season, and arguably it was tenuous in season 3 as well. It’s a dying flame that both Mike and El are trying to rekindle, with El seemingly putting forth more effort into salvaging it than Mike. Calling into question the integrity of Mil*ven for a second time seems odd to me, unless it’s going somewhere we least expect it. Now I’ve seen speculations floating around about how Mike can’t say ‘I love you’ back because of his parents’ inability to properly show love to one another, and while I sort of buy into that I think that there’s a deeper, less-superficial spin to his reluctance to say those three words, let alone write them to his girlfriend. Throughout this season, Mike has felt suspiciously off-kilter. Odd. Sure, he’s lovey-dovey with El when they reunite at the airport, and a little bit during their time at the rollerskating rink--but then the fiasco with Angela goes down, and this is where it takes a sharp nose-dive south. Mike makes an insensitive comment during dinner about the ordeal, which hurts El who abruptly leaves the room. Later on they have their argument, and El brings up the elephant in the room: Mike’s refusal to say ‘I love you.’ Rather than say it back to her, he gives her empty answer after empty answer. Answers she doesn’t believe. He even calls her ridiculous for raising valid concerns she has, and he gets defensive. Comparing this scene and the scene with Will and Mike in the bedroom, you can see the difference in Mike’s body language and his delivery clear as day. But where did his refusal to say/write ‘I love you’ come from? This passive, aloof attitude toward their relationship? If I had to wager a guess, it’s Mike unknowingly facing identity issues. He’s conflicted, and he’s confused. His awkward exchange with Will at the airport--a far cry from their farewell hug just a few months prior. His insistence that Will and him are just friends. Friends. His curiosity and reaction to Will’s painting. Mike loves El, there is absolutely no doubt about it. Whether it is romantic or platonic is the million dollar question, and I’m leaning towards the latter. Let me say that platonic relationships are in no way beneath romantic relationships, and a lot of times they are even stronger and run viscerally deeper. For Mike and El, they started dating at a young age before they could really, truly discover themselves and what they want. They dove into it head-first; two kids head over heels for each other--the girl with superpowers and the boy who saved her. They were perfect for each other; they’ve been through hell and back together, and share a trauma bond. But as time goes on, Mike starts to slowly realize that his feelings for El have been misconstrued all along. Being Mike, he’s too damn dense to reflect on himself and continues acting as if everything is fine when in reality it’s far from it. This sounds an awful lot like someone who is struggling with newfound feelings and trying to push them down to maintain a semblance of normalcy in a life that’s been extremely hectic and traumatic.

Point of the matter is, there is a method to the Duffer brothers’ madness. Everything they do in this show is tastefully methodical and so well thought-out to the minutest detail. They planned this story since the very beginning. I seriously doubt they will pursue such a pivotal plot point only to later discard it, especially since it could benefit all three characters’ arcs in a unique way. I think they’re definitely building up to Will’s confessing to Mike, and I have a book of theories centered around that that I will keep to myself for brevity’s sake. In short: have a little more faith in this ship. You’re not delusional, and you’re not over-analyzing. You’re observing things that are supposed to be observed, and drawing conclusions that need to be drawn. I will gladly eat crow if I’m wrong, but something tells me I’m far from it.

Angie, I am kinda new in the Larrie fandom. I get this that all the so called gfs are actually stunts and all that promo narrative. But could it be possible that Louis is really the father? Why would he drag a child into a stunt for this long. It's not like he's not had a long term stable relationship on the side. Why the need for this extra coverup? I guess maybe he could be the father afterall. Maybe some surrogacy shit was involved. Could it be possibly?

Hello, angel! Merry Christmas ✨

I am going to take time to answer this, because I don’t want to say things that can be misinterpreted. First thing first: welcome to Larryland! It’s fucking nuts, ngl. Secondly… I get where you are coming from. I get it, really I do. But guys… shit happens all the time. I know we like to believe life is easy and people come with high morality and good at hearts. I know that would be incredible if the world wasn’t indeed populated by greedy men who will find any possible solution to make their plans work. I know, I see why many people like you have the hardest time digesting babygate.

I’m not here to convince you on this, because we are not here to bear the pain of this on our shoulders and you should always find yourself navigating what’s comfortable to you and if this is not a safe topic for you to enter, then don’t do it. At the end of the day, you are a fan of his music not of his gossip agenda am I right? Believe what makes your staying here more enjoyable.

There are plenty of timelines, masterposts and stuff explaining why nothing around it makes sense. Have a read, if you want. What wasn’t real 7 years ago isn’t real now just because they keep doing it. It’s funny how blogs handle the discourse actually, because many times their points of discussion are going nowhere. We know nothing. Let this sink in: we. Know. Nothing. We don’t know who is running it behind the scenes. We don’t know in what extent the people who play pretend are actually involved. We don’t know who thinks what. We don’t know who is gaining what and who is not. I’ve seen people talking about trauma for the kid and what not. But seriously this is dangerous territory and there are so many things to say. But we can’t really, cause we don’t know.

I know it feels gross to have a child involved in this, but how is it worse than coming up with this in the first place?

Mind you. This is not Louis’ fault. You will never see me saying that. Ever. When you are part of the wrong mechanism, in the wrong environment, with wrong people behind your back… it’s so easy to get trapped into a mess like this.

The bigger the bait, the bigger the fish.

And we are common people, their rules don’t apply to us. Try not to use your knowledge of society and common sense for big multimillion dollars companies who will literally sell their souls to the devil to help their business rise. There are fields where there is no ethic for the workers and for the consumers (music being one of them). I know your next question is why they would agree to this, is it worthy? I can’t answer to that, because it’s not my call. It’s not my life, my dream, my job. Based on the person I am, I would never do it in the first place, but I am me.

I strongly believe (for now at least) this was their way to buy Louis out of that nightmare of a major label and I bet it wasn’t the only one clausole of the contract (include here no radio support, no huge promo, no media or other kind of important support). But this is just my opinion. I don’t have any proofs or tools to act like I’m right. And as a kind anon said I’m just a “doctor of idiots at best” lmao

I don’t know if this replies to your question, but no, angel, Louis doesn’t happen to just have a baby with a random american girl after he broke up with his fake long lasting girlfriend in the meantime a potentially dangerous rumour about his queerness and gay relationship with his also rumoured to be gay ex bandmate could ruin not only his band career, but their (Harry’s mostly) solo career.

Edit (because I misunderstood the question maybe): A surrogacy was involved for sure. Think of the fertility clinic sonogram we got last year. I just do not think Louis was involved. Why would a 25 years old boybander want to be involved after all? Looking for a baby’s surrogate mother instead of trying to fix his relationship with his gf of 4 years and then start a family with her? Doesn’t make sense not even for a rich person imo

very long rant about volume 2 (SPOILERS)

im just going to start out by saying that my hopes were VERY high for volume 2. I couldn't sleep last night because I was just thinking about canon byler. instead what we got was a messy plot and ZERO character development for will, mike and el. I'm going to break it down using those 3 characters. remember these are MY THOUGHTS. also going to to be talking about social media posts also that contributed to the queer baiting.

WILL

firstly, im so over the gay pining trope omg my best friend is straight and he'll never love me back. it's one thing if mil even was put back together this season (it's repetitive and boring and annoying but whatvever) but using a queer person's experiences to further plot lines? a big no no. and even the fact that will's painting was hyped up to be such a big deal and relate to will's sexuality (which the duffer brothers LITERALLY stated in an interview) and it just turning out to be something to help mike tell eleven that he loves her. which if he did, why didn't he say it in their argument where she was literally crying? example number 1 of lazy writing. the coded conversation with Jonathan in the pizza shop was such a let-down. ALSO WHY CANT THEY SAY THE WORD GAY. ITS NOT A DIRTY WORD. and its clear the Jonathan knows but of course they have to keep it discreet and "up to interpretation" for their homophobic audience. don't even get me started on the cabin scene which would have been a perfect opportunity to parallel season 2 and have mike hold will's hand. but of course not. then they had that lame ass shot at the end of all the couples standing next to each other just to hint at the queer audience that "omg this is the byler scene" and then to leave it at that. I mean the cast wasn't wrong when they said we would need time to process what happened after it finished because literally what the fuck was the mess that is volume 2.

MIKE

sigh. what have the duffers reduced his character to at this point. seriously, what point does he serve in the plot other than el's boyfriend? it seems as if the writers love to introduce new characters just to kill them off (rip Eddie) and simultaneously ignore their characters development that has been built up throughout the seasons. the fact that he couldn't say I love you to el in the bedroom when she was crying, but only say it in the heat of the moment when she was almost dead USING WILLS GUIDANCE. this is literally just a repeat of season 3 where he uses all of his friends, but this time will instead of Lucas, to help fix his own relationship. it's like he's not even his own person anymore. it also makes no sense that he would be awkward with will in the airport and argue with him and stuff if he has no feelings for him? he also hugged dustin in the previous episode? like what. im so angry because the writers had the best chance ever to make mike wheeler one of the best representations of internalized homophobia but they took the easy route instead so that the casual viewers and general audience don't riot and say that "it came out of nowhere" he feels like a completely different person than he was in season 1 and 2. lastly the fact that he said it was the best day ever when he found eleven on the DAY WILL WENT MISSING??? fuck you mike, but more importantly fuck the duffer brothers.

EL

im only going to say one thing: the fact that she had the most character development when she was AWAY from mike speaks volumes to me. that's it. why does she need someone so that she can believe that's she's worth something? someone who doesn't treat her very well, mind you

SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS

aside from the Netflix geeked posts, Noah really disappointed me. and before y'all start, because I know one of you will, I know Noah does not write the show. but if he knew we were getting literal minuscule crumbs of byler content, why would he tweet that? it makes no sense. and all of them getting giggly in interviews and stuff. and the fact that Finn and Noah had no interviews together, yet they were in the same plot line? bye.

at this point the only explanation is that the duffers cut content from the episode bc it was originally supposed to be 2 hr and 30 min but its 2hr and 21 on Netflix. so, yeah.

in conclusion, fuck the duffer brothers. fuck Netflix. fuck stranger things. I don't even know if im going to continue posting or being a fan of this show because I am genuinely so upset and not even excited for season 5. this show should've ended at the second season

Part of me think some people are overreacting with byler right now. Because it’s not queer baiting, if Will isn’t made gay in canon by the last season then there is queer baiting but at the end of the day byler itself isn’t (said by a byler shipper)

And I definitely think there was a lot of Bad choices made this season for byler. Like mikes whole my life started when he met El (and when will disappeared) made no sense and was terrible.

I love byler but- and while we absolutely can have a queer couple in the show- we have to also understand that hey not all ships we want will end up together. And that’s okay. Not what we want but that’s life and this show Is realistic for some stuff like that. Gay or not we don’t always get the person we are pinning for and it sucks but it’s normal.

However definitely think a Lot about Mike was out of character this season just to add more to his relationship with El which is Not okay.

Because romantic or not Mike does care about Will. That’s what ten years of friendship? He hasn’t even known El for half of that. That is not something that can just be ignored for a het relationship

I agree and disagree. I think that you could argue fairly well that within the show, Byler was not baited. Obviously I can't tell someone who watches the show whether to feel baited or not, but I doubt Mike's relationship with Eleven was intentionally poorly written so that we'd think he was gay. I don't think Byler not being canon is inherently queer baiting. My mantra with it was always 'disappointed but not surprised' which, after watching Volume 2, is exactly how I feel. I understand they're not going to do every ship which is why I've always had the attitude that of they don't do Byler I won't be shocked but it is a missed opportunity.

What I take issue with was the marketing of the show. I understand that the social media interns posting about Byler weren't on the creative team and just wanted engagement, but they made a corporate decision to give a lot of people hope only for that to just not happen. Not to mention how often it was raised in interviews and Noah Schnapp talking about how now's the time to ship it. Which I think is pretty bait-y.

It's a similar thing with Will. I can kind of get the arguement that he's taking his time to come out, but they told us that he would. The Duffers said his sexuality would be addressed and I think Shawn Levy said that too which was just a blatant lie. I mean, I would've loved him to have said it to Johnathan because now I have to deal with at least a year more of people claiming that Will is immature for not liking girls, instead of the fact that he's just gay. And don't get me started on the people who thinks he likes Max or Eleven or Nancy. That's not even addressing the fact that his feelings were a plot device so the straight people could get together and be happy which whilst not queer baiting is just really shitty.

And in terms of Mike, I don't think he was well written. He was distant from Eleven and a rubbish friend. Sure he felt unneeded by Eleven but why couldn't this have been shown to us before. I know to my followers I'll sound like a broken record, but I can just tell they wanted a big monologue where he tells Eleven he loves her and worked backwards from there. The issue being that we already knew that. So they made him a distant and shitty boyfriend who seems so disinterested in his girlfriend that we thought he was gay.

And then in terms of his friendship with Will, something really switched after S2. They've gone from having a super close relationship where the best thing Mike ever did was become Will's friend to Mike's life beginning the day Will went missing. Their talks with each other this season were nice, but in every one of them, Will was clearly the wiser. And then the last one with Will talking about Eleven... How oblivious did Mike have to be? Remember in S2 when Mike said Will's quiet and Lucas said he's always quiet? That was meant to show Will and Mike have a special bond and that Mike notices what Will's going through. But now Will is sobbing into his hand whilst Michael Wheeler believes a thinly veiled coming out is about his girlfriend.

So yeah that's my opinion on the matter. I think it could've not been queer baiting but some of the marketing choices make me feel pretty baited right now. Thanks for the ask (:

So… Will Byers.

People have said that his plot this season was queer bait, and while I agree that the way they claimed it would be addressed and hyped it up was a little queer bait-ish considering nothing much happened, I don’t think their intention for his character was to not have him be openly queer, I just think they’re saving that for season five.

I’m so bad at explaining lemme try harder

So most people that maybe don’t interact with the st fandom much or maybe just started interacting with it probably don’t know that Will has been hinted at as being queer since the beginning of the show. There are lots of hints, at first subtle but then building up as he and his friends get older and they start dating, until eventually we see the scene in season three of Mike telling Will “it’s not my fault you don’t like girls.” This scene is the most explicit look at wills sexuality we had received up until that point, but it still has been the plan since the beginning. Even in the first episode of season one, one of the first things we learn about will is that his father would insult him and call him queer. So, obviously they’ve been planning this since the beginning of the show.

This brings me back to what I said before about how some people might not have realized that that’s where his character was always heading, but when in season four they made it even more obvious that will was queer, a lot of people were very excited and expected that to be his main plot for the season, because each season each character has their own little arch for how they’re gonna change, and with will, many people were expecting that to be his arch and for it to be fully resolved by the end. I think that people think this mainly because of how in interviews and things the actors hyped up byler a crazy amount and on social media Netflix would interact with content about byler, and many people were led to believe that his queer arch would be wrapped up this season, similarly to how Robins was addressed and revealed the same season robin was introduced, BUT the difference is that Will has been on the show since the beginning And they have been planning on him being queer since the beginning, so how would it make sense for them to build up that plot line for the entire show only to completely resolve it the season before the final season? They have been building our interest in his queer identity this whole time, they’re not just going to resolve it right before the big push at the end of the show.

This has been wills overarching plot for the whole show, and while I don’t agree with the borderline queer bait they pulled to advertise for this season, and while I definitely think Will deserves to be more than the sad gay person with an unrequited crush on his friend, it does not make sense at all that they would have completely resolved his story and completely addressed his sexuality at this point. Basically they will probably Completely address it and finalize his queer story in season five. I just think a lot of people were led to believe that they would do so this season and that’s why people are mad about this season.

Your reblog reminded me of the time years ago (2018? 2019?) when I saw someone on twitter say that lancelot/vane was queerbait and I just stared at my screen like that tails meme because I couldn't believe what I was reading

Oh my goddddd

i'm so tired i swear i'm so tired of those things oh my god. oh my gooooood.

I've seen legit Queerbaitings, like, the ones that are from Markettings to the audience fooling us into watching straight shit. It's its own very nasty thing that is different from ship tease and i wish people would understand that.

I especially hate when this framing is attributed to mobage of the type of granblue because it's usually down to the DNA of the game that they're doing that. They usually can't exactly confirm stuff (unless they have to make a big story around it) because they use it also to "tease" self insert shipping with those characters.

They're trying to appeal to demographic that cares about shipping other characters together AND those who ship themselves with the characters in question.

As such i find it especially to be a bad faith critic to call it queerbaiting. Whenever you find this approach tasteful or not, it's mostly a brand of fanservice, but you're expected to know it when you interreact with it.

Queerbaiting is the cast and crew and marketting looking at you directly telling you "don't worry we'll totally give you rep those two chara especially are totally going to be rep for you" and then it never happens. like i'm thinking about the trailer for Riverdale that showed a lesbian kiss without context, so you would be intrigued, and then you watch the episode and you learn they only kissed to try to shock the audience in a staged show, and the person they did it in front of literally calls them out about how "girls kissing isn't as shocking anymore you know". and then the two girls involved in the kiss move on to flirt with guys they end up dating the rest of the show instead. Like. That's textbook Queerbaiting. It doesn't matter that this show has rep, it doesn't matter if ship are teased left and right, it doesn't even matter that they kissed for shock in the episode itself, what matters is that the promo was saying "hey, there's rep for you <3" and then you watch and you realize it's a lie.

There's a subtle line sometimes with just, implied romantic connection toward the show that is then never resolved, which imo, can count or can not count, depends really on context, but even there it gets more blurry (and it also is good to take into account that queerbaiting =/= queercoding from a place where they're not allowed by the studios to go this direction).

but for Mobage i'm really uninterested with any discussion of queerbaiting since imo it feels like people are genuinely refusing to engage with the fact the game is requesting you to interreact differently with its characters than you would watching a TV show. Not all media consumtions come to the same effort.

But also i should mention that the context of the post i reblogged is that people are now using "queerbaiting" to refer to real life people and that's genuinely horrifying, above any fandom petty discussion on it.

This post refers to the fact that the lead actor of Heartstopper, a TV show focusing a gay couple between two teens, was forcefully outed on twitter after people harrassed him for "queerbaiting" everyone by "pretending to be gay on TV while he's likely straight irl" and therefore he's.... baiting people by acting??? somehow???

Even if he was straight this attitude would be unacceptable, but what resulted was that this 19yo was so exhausted by the harassments and bullying he had to come out on twitter.

No real people owe you a coming out. No real people are queerbaiting you. Queerbaiting is a specific media framework you cannot use on people. Real life people don't gain anything by pretending to be queer. People involved in this harassments campaign better be ashamed of their behavior because this is vile.

And in general i'm really annoyed with how specific media analysis/critic framework are being used as means to specifically interreact with real life people while removed from the media analysis context. People are doing the same with Death of the Author which is annoying me to no end but that's another can of worm.

But the Queerbaiting thing is genuinely hurting people and i'm genuinely so angry at those people.

so, yeah, i say it again: i am begging people to learn what words mean. You're just diluting what useful expression mean and make them lose their impact and it is becoming exhausting.

Karina with Aespa Dating Scandal & Apology (Tae & Jennie are featured in the video)

As a senior BTS fan and Jikook supporter from the United States, I have always found the k-pop culture of dating being a scandal, utterly ridiculous. I also never understood the use of what many describe as queer-baiting being a part of fanservice as a marketing strategy of k-pop companies. This whole situation with Karina being outed for dating by Dispatch and then being forced by her company to apologize to the fans is crazy. This situation has been going on for over a week now and and it is being reported worldwide and covered by international media outlets such as CNN and the BBC. There are full details in the posted video. I have also copied and pasted a comment that was copied and posted  in this video.

I guess why I found this video so interesting is because our BTS members are unable to date publicy even though they are close to or in their 30s. Ages where they should be dating, in relationships, getting married and having children, if they sho desire.  In my opinion, adult idols should have the right to date, privately or publicly without public backlash for living their lives, just like us. Being an artist on the road all the time is lonely enough. So, fans should be able to control artists because they support them by buying their music and going to concerts?   I agree with the comments below that it is not just the fans fault, not just the artist fault, but the way the industry treats the idols,  how they sell the idols to the public and what they force the idols to do. This culture will not change until the companies change this marketing strategy. Then, when these artists enter into personal relationships, they should be supported.

*********************************

@caffeinehugg (I copied this from comment on a video I just watched, I just felt that it wasn't just me who should be aware of it, but everyone. Because this made me almost throw up because it was too true... )

Yeah, I also think after this Karina scandal, people might start to open their eyes about K-Pop, especially teenagers who have just become fans.

I like that you don't judge those fans, because what I feel towards them is actually just sad, like what I feel towards Karina. And I hope people won't judge them too harshly.

Because this is not about individuals but about "K-Pop" itself. In situations like this, people can't just see it from one side, and it's wrong if people say that disappointed and sad fans are crazy, insane, and delusional. Judging them like they forgot that their idol is also human. But I hope people also don't forget that those fans are human too.

Maybe some of them are excessive, but those are their feelings. It's real, they're hurt, they're disappointed, and they're allowed to feel that, it's normal. Because they're human, and not because they forgot that their idol is also just a regular human. (Btw this is only for toxic fans because things like this happen, not for fans who are toxic all the time hating/insulting anyone and anything other than their favorite idol. Ngl, I also don't know what kind of creatures they are.

If we look closely and understand 'K-Pop', we'll see that the mental health of idols and fans is both at stake. Most K-Pop fandoms are not just toxic about things like this but about small, nonsensical things.

I'm thinking about all your words and not hoping for anything other than good things. But big hopes like no toxic fans, or supporting each other healthily, understanding each other's feelings and mental state, treating each other like regular humans, those things in K-Pop for me are like hoping to get rich just by sleeping 🥹

Unless the K-Pop industry has to erase all the history they've created or has to stop making fanservice its culture. Like... Seriously, if they want fans to stop crossing boundaries or understand, agencies and idols themselves also shouldn't forget that the fans they'll attract with the fanservice they'll use are also humans. Who have different ways of thinking, different hearts, and different mental states. Especially if those fans are still underage.

K-Pop is growing and known in various countries, yes, K-Pop is growing but the way they attract fans hasn't changed at all. But if there are fans like this, everyone will blame them. People are wrong if that happens and only blame fans because they exist also because they were created by K-Pop itself.

K-Pop itself creates and embeds toxicity in people's minds without them realizing it through fanservice that doesn't even feel like fanservice. Like double standards, aesthetic slavery, objectification, gender stereotypes, shippers culture, and the worst of all is involving LGBTQ+ representation that is too forced. I really hate it but what I feel is never listened to even though I've said it many times.

Fanservice pretending or portraying themselves as gay on stage or in front of the camera is very insulting, demeaning, and harmful to the LGBTQ+ community. They use it only for their fans' misguided fantasies. But even gay people in this world still experience discrimination and are insulted to the point of absurdity.

LGBTQ+ is not something trivial and easy to attract fans or profit. It's also not something that can be used just to make fans go crazy, or to please the disgusting fantasies of K-Pop fans. Idols who do that and the fans who are "pleased" by it, even their opinions on LGBTQ+ should still be questioned.

Because here in my country, many K-Pop fans really hate gay people. Look at how ironic that is. They're so excited and enthusiastic when they see two idols of the same gender looking like romantic partners, but they hate it so much, calling it, mentally ill, needing God's help, sinful future inhabitants of the deepest hell, or even openly disgusted when they see it in people around them.

And of course, if someone like me gets angry about this, I'll be the one who gets insulted and cursed at by their fans.

K-Pop hypocrisy has spread to almost all K-Pop fans and they still don't realize it. And it's really sad.

So like I said, if the K-Pop world wants to change, then K-Pop itself has to change it, no

 questioning the humanity of fans. The victims here are not only idols who are forced to do all that and all fans who are consumed by it.

But I heard all idols know about shippers and some of them do it intentionally just to "please their fans." So, yeah idk anymore. I just wish, yes this is a wish... I wish people could see it from between the idol and fans...just like me. You know... Not defending idols and not defending fans or not blaming both sides.

 Because it seems that only in that way, everyone can collectively ask all K-Pop agencies to change their ways because even without using LGBTQ+ in it, their fanservice is already very toxic for idols and fans.

Post Date: Marcy 12, 2024

Stranger things 4 volume 2 spoilers.

Like MAJOR spoilers

I’m fucking emotionally devastated rn. Like I’m not angry even though I should be, I’m just disappointed.

Eddie didn’t fucking deserve that. Sure it was a close to his zero to hero story arc, but Jesus CHRIST. He died for a town that never loved him, will never know the sacrifice he made that was in VAIN since Vecna still won in the end.

The only people who mourned him were Dustin and Wayne, none of his friends, none of the hellfire club. They just left his body to get eaten by the bats and time skipped when they could have atleast shown the upside down crew console Dustin.

And don’t get me fucking started on the queer baiting. The official accounts retweeting Steddie art and making joke posts about them being in love. The blatant disrespect for Will and his feelings for Mike. The only queer person who got atleast a glimpse of happiness (not before she was devastated by seeing Vickie with a guy though) was Robin and even that’s up for debate seeing as they were just being friendly.

As a Queer person this just felt genuinely mean spirited and homophobic. Using a gay boys unrequited feelings for his best friend to further a straight relationship just. It really fucking sucks. Eddies obvious joke flirting with Steve in episode 8 (0 hetero explanation for “dontcha? big boy! :3), him being the “freak” and being so obviously queercoded only to be killed off in the next episode. Making Will and Robin see their crushes be with other people while standing in the background. It just really sucks to see the characters you love go through shit like that, especially when I really wasn’t necessary.

I just, I’ve been hyperfixating in this show so fucking hard, I stayed up all night to watch the last episodes, just to feel like I’ve been hit with a truck.

Was I expecting Eddie to die? Yes, though I was praying he’d be fine

Was I expecting Byler or Steddie to actually be canon? Byler kinda? (they were hyping it up with the fucking painting and the sad glances), Steddie no absolutely not. It would have been nice but I knew that was not going to happen.

Did it still ruin me emotionally to see one of my favourite queer coded character die on screen? Yes. I don’t cry to media but the scene between Dustin and Wayne broke me. I went to bed feeling numb and when my mom woke me up I cried again.

There’s people theorizing that there could be time travel some how and that Eddie will come back because Joseph said something about wanting to be in season 5. I think he’s going to come back but probably for flash back sequences. There’s 0 chance they’ll pull a Hopper and have him secretly be okay since we literally saw him take his last breath and there’s 0 chance that going back in time to kill child Henry Creel will work. If they manage to do that it’ll ruin so many character arcs, Steve’s especially since he wouldn’t have any big brother moments with Dustin nor become besties with Robin. He might even still be a jackass since Johnathan only was with Nancy because of the demegorgon, he’d never get beaten senseless because he’d never see them together.

I just. I have too many thoughts and feeling about this stupid fucking tv show that I’ve only been a fan of for like a month. I hate that I’ve hyperfixated on it this hard cause now that it’s over, and it destroyed one of my favourite comfort characters for me idk what to do now. Like I still want to talk about it and enjoy it because it’s the only thing my brain has latched on to for a while. But all the fics i have are going to just make me fucking sad and I feel so emotionally numb and all social media’s are gonna be filled with sad edits of Eddie.

I’m probably going to still watch season 5 but that’s not for another couple years, I just hope all of this bullshit gets resolved.

Queer Defusal in Bridgerton Season 2

Ah, Bridgerton. I really like that show. Or maybe I just hope it delivers a lot and I’m doomed to be disappointed. But I like how it is a show very much centred around romance and everything else is secondary. Usually in other romantic shows, I feel like it’s somehow the other way around.

Buuut... There’s just something that vexes my queer self about the second season. So, let’s talk about how season 2 of Bridgerton is so very hetero.

Back when season 1 had come out, I had actually planned on making a video on it, comparing Eloise’s search for Lady Whistledown to Marlowe’s homoerotic obsession with Kurtz in Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness. The video didn’t materialize, but I was eagerly waiting for Eloise’s search to continue next time.

In season 2, Eloise’s feelings toward Whistledown are... mixed. I’d say it’s character development but really, it just came across really confused. And there’s nothing wrong with a character being confused or their actions being confusing. But the show needs to communicate to the viewer that this is intentional and there’s a point to this. And I didn’t really feel like that was done too well. Instead, to me it just felt like Eloise’s obsession with Whistledown was mitigated, perhaps because it bordered on the homoerotic.

But of course, making her interest in Lady Whistledown more confused wasn’t enough. The show also had to give her an... “intellectual interest” of a different kind. A man who is also a big thinker in the women’s lib movement. Which... okay. Seems a bit weird that their representative for the women’s lib movement wasn’t, you know, a woman and that Eloise doesn’t think much of it. But I guess the point was to get as far as possible from anything homoerotic.

Another mitigator is, of course, Penelope and Eloise’s falling out. Which you could read as a third act break up, if you were really hopeful. But combined with all this other defusing, I wouldn’t bet on it.The original reveal of Penelope as Lady Whistledown actually worked well for the homoerotic angle. The person you’ve been obsessing about being close to you all along, and all that. But alas, that seems a bit down the drain as well.

Homoeroticism is actually something I want to discuss in a video properly because I think a lot of people have the image that it’s a way of saying that a character is gay without outright saying it. It can be that but I find it far more interesting to use it to discuss how seemingly straight parts of media or culture in fact have aspects that fall through the cracks of heteronormativity. This way, I think it can be useful to show how heteronormativity only pretends to be an all-encompassing system and actually can’t even contain itself.

But before I digress further, let’s talk about the other queer defused aspect of Bridgerton, Benedict Bridgerton.

So, Benedict isn’t queer... but in season 1, he’s basically the only main character who knowingly has any connection to queer people. However, in season 2, his experiences were very het.

It almost feels like, again, the show makers wanted to wash away the stain of queerness from Benedict. Instead of wild sex parties with some salacious queerness, we get a very hetero, monogamous relationship. Which isn’t baaad... But you know, contrasts. And don’t tell me art school is just too straight for anything to happen. My roommate has told me stories.

It seems that the series has defused as much of its queer potential as possible, and I do have to wonder why. I think that doing queerness in vaguely historic settings is fairly in vogue, since it's an easy way to seem like you’re transgressing norms set by earlier stories and you can create tension easily as well.

It’s of course possible that the queerness in the first season was, like the amount of butts, a way of roping a particular audience in. Classic queer baiting where you give a tiny taste and then fade it all away, with the unsaid implication that there could be more.

Of course, a queerbaiter knows that you should never give anything to the audience, just make them think they’ll get something.

Okay I’m just saying..do you guys realize what a cultural reset canon byler would be?

Like it would trend on Twitter, 100%. People who have never seen the show before would become interested in it, ESPECIALLY people who are looking for queer representation in shows.

Byler is a good slow burn that’s INTERESTING. It’s not your stereotypical gay guys who obviously like eachother and are only there for comic relief and pushed to the back so that the het ships can get the spotlight. It has DEVELOPMENT. And it’s rare you come across stuff like that.

Neither mike nor will are stereotypically “gay”. They are just regular teenage boys who happen to not be straight. Usually gay ships portrayed in TV and Film are used as comedic relief. Or the overly flamboyant gay guy and the super macho gay guy getting together in the last 10 seconds the show.

Yes, there are a TON of good shows out there that have queer representation however a LOT of them get thrown under the radar or are overshadowed by the more heterosexual ships or shows.

So imagine, a show as big as stranger things, having its two boys be in a canon relationship. Like the internet would BLOW UP. It’d be the topic of every interview. Finn and Noah would be the topic of every interview. Stranger Things would have relevancy again.

Obviously, ST is still relevant however with this whole hiatus it’s falling off the radar easily and people are becoming bored. But this...this would blow it up again.

Obviously queer ships are NOT there to make a show relevant again, at all. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is, imagine all the lgbtq+ kids that watch ST. The lgbtq+ BOYS that watch ST.

Often, when queer relationships are portrayed in film or television, it isn’t portrayed accurately. And it’s often shown as “if you don’t come out this way then you’re invalid.” Or “if you have internalized homophobia you’re invalid” and a thousand other things. Hell, I remember being much younger absolutely hating myself or not “picking a side” and being so confused with my self and wondering why I was even bisexual in the first place.

But then you have byler, which portrays a much more accurate relationship between two closer than normal boys. It portrays the internalized homophobia, the abuse and bullying people back in the 80’s (and still now) would endure. And yeah, it’s not the most accurate depiction but it’s FAR better than some other popular show’s queer relationships.

Millions of people watch this show, an abundance of them being lgbtq+. And imagine them having a ship to look up to. A ship that doesn’t portray gay relationships as a “joke”. And even better, Mike and Will are teenagers!!

Often, in film and television, queer ships are usually based around two adults. In fact, a lot of times they portray young teenagers being in a gay relationship as “gross.” They say that it’s too “mature”. That having a partner that’s the same gender as you is wrong, and that you need to be a little bit “older” because apparently being in a queer relationship is only for adults because queer relationships are just too “inappropriate.”

But then you have Mike and Will who are two 14 year old boys. Who aren’t stereotypically “gay” as the movies portray. They’re just normal teenage boys. And that’s how it SHOULD be portrayed. We need to stop portraying Lgbtq+ ships as “inappropriate” or “weird”. They’re just two teenage boys in love.

Remember when everyone found out Robin was lesbian after being straight baited? Yeah. The internet blew up. So take that and times it by ten thousand. That would be canon byler.

It’d be a huge step for the media. Unfortunately, we haven’t come that far with queer ships. It’s gotten better but there’s still a lot of steps to take. But having a huge show like stranger things have their two man boys be in a canon relationship and have it portrayed regularly, guys!! That would be huge!!

Imagine all the little kids getting to grow up with that. Or all the teenagers that are Mike and Will’s age struggling with their sexuality seeing these two boys who aren’t stereotypically anything be canonically in love. Like, that would be huge.

I know that if I grew up with a canon byler I would definitely have felt a lot more sure of my sexuality earlier on. So many kids would have a wonderful ship to look up to that isn’t fetishized or treated like it’s “weird.”

And the fact that it’d be the topic of every interview. Noah and Finn wouldn’t see the end of it. People would talk about it non stop. It’d be advertised on social media accounts, the duffers would talk about it, the stranger writers would talk about it. I mean, it’d be big!!

And yeah, it’s sad that a gay ship becoming canon would be revolutionary, but that’s just how the world is. We still haven’t progressed past that yet. And it’ll take awhile before having a gay shop isn’t a big thing.

I often see people say “if byler became canon then everybody would stop watching” which just ISN’T true.

They’d gain so many viewers. It’d be more popular than Mileven ever had been. Yes, Mileven has their cute moments, however at the end of the day, Milevens dynamic has been done before. Thats not to say bylers hasn’t, obviously a canon byler wouldn’t be the first. But it’d be the first big canon queer ship in awhile. Straight ships with mileven’s dynamic happen all the time.

And at the end of the day, ST isn’t a romance show. If Mileven didn’t end up being end game I don’t think many people would care. It wouldn��t be as big as people say it is. I feel like the fandom likes to think that Mileven rakes in all the money but that simply isn’t true. It’s a science fiction show at its core and the core viewers don’t watch for romance. If Mileven is what raked in all their viewers then season 2 wouldn’t have been as successful as it was, considering mike and el don’t even interact until the last episode of season 2. So I really think the fandom is just overreacting on that part. Yeah, people are gonna leave the fandom. Just how people left when stancy wasn’t endgame or when their favorite chatacter died or when something happened that they didn’t like. That’s just how life works. They’re gonna lose viewers regardless of what happens because not everyone will be happy with how season four plays out. But at the end of the day, it’s hot like ST is going to lose 25 million viewers because two 14 year olds weren’t endgame. It’s often easy to forget that the fandom doesn’t reflect ST’s viewership. The fandom takes up only a small percentage OF their viewership. So yeah, some fan accounts may deactivate, just like how a lot of bylers left the fandom after season 3. But it’s not like nobody’s going to watch the show, that’s absurd. Mileven isn’t their main cash cow. It isn’t even on the leader board of st’s main cash cows. If anything, Steve dying would make st lose more viewers than Mileven not being end game. And it’s been made more clear recently that a lot of people prefer Jopper over Mileven, especially with the ending of season 3. We gotta remember that, the FANDOM is mainly teenagers however stranger things main demographic and viewership is ADULTS. And I don’t see many 21+ year olds not watching the show because a ship almost 10 years younger than them wasnt end game. Most of st’s viewers don’t care about the romance

TLDR: canon byler would be huge for stranger things and would probably blow up the internet. It’d also be good commercially and financially for stranger things. Also having byler he canon would be so helpful to all the kids and teens and even adults out their struggling with their sexuality and would make so many lgbtq+ kids, teens, and adults feel seen and feel loved and feel validated. Over all, canon byler would do more GOOD then bad.

I 100% agree with your tags PLEASE no one send hate to the cast or crew that’s just ridiculous.

I do also agree that Chibnall’s weakest area is characters. Taking 13 for example, while Jodie has done a great job and has shined in many moments, the arc of her Doctor feels so abandoned. There are so so so so many moments where she is “do first, think later” and it always bites her in the ass and yet it’s never been brought up, it’s never had consequences that she’s had to properly face, and I don’t really see it happening all in the next episode.

Sure, we’ve had moments where Yaz kinda calls her out, but again it doesn’t lead to any change or development. What’s most infuriating though is I have seen SO MANY instances where the consequences of her actions could have been brought up! Could’ve been a big moment! But it just never happens!!!

Which reminds me; is Chib just gonna ignore the fact that Flux ended with a majority of the known universe in total ruin with multiple species just… wiped out? Like, that’s kind of a big deal???

Honestly I almost expected us to have to move into a new universe via Division’s ship because they just couldn’t stop the Flux and all they could save was Earth or something.

Exactly. Keep our views on tumblr/social media, but the cast and crew don't deserve hate. Nor does anybody for the matter!

It's a big mess, and I don't think rewatching the series of Flux will make us understand it any better. It's like with Vinder and Bel in Flux, what was the point of them? Just added characters? I know they're coming back in the finale, but for what?

i also hate how he didn't address 13 with any big changes on now being a woman. I really wanted to see 13 . I kinda get why they didn't address anything other than the stupid remark: "I've had an upgrade!" In Spyfall, but I really wanted to see 13 going through it. Like did she find the adjustment hard? Or easier? Does she miss being "male" or not? I feel like there's so much they could have done with this but they have just chosen to do nothing.

13 is so mean to Yaz, and vice versa, Yaz can be pretty mean to Dan. Give me all the queer rep, but please don't be lazy about it. Give us something tangible with the characters first before diving into that aspect of the relationship if they wanted to go down that road.

But yeah, the way they ended Flux is a big old mess. i won't go into too much detail here, but I have discussed this with a lot of other people in the past. The Doctor has pulled the trigger before -but they have always tried to find another way first, or stop people from sacrificing themselves, but now 13 is trigger happy and is happy for any side character to take the bait. See this episode of Legend of the Sea Devils and the Time Less children with the game of thrones guy.

I think the Division could be a cool concept, but I despise the Timelord Jesus story line, and I wish instead Chibnall just mentioned the CIA instead.

"Another popular show ends in a horrific mess of queerbaiting" - we can't boycott them now but we can boycott all new show with ANY HINT of queerbaiting. Don't hope! Don't wait! It's a BAITING

I assume you’re referencing my recent post about yet another show ending in a horrific mess of queerbaiting?

Personally I wasn’t in the Supergirl fandom at all, never even watched a single episode. I didn’t avoid it because of fears of being queerbaited, it’s just that the DC shows aren’t really my thing.

The point of my post that there are high-quality shows out there that aren’t queerbaiting dumpster fires -- specifically Black Sails. Black Sails is fundamentally a story about marginalized people, most prominently queer identities, but also people of color, disabled people, gender-non-conforming people, and women in positions of power in the early 18th century. All of the show’s main characters fall into at least one of those marginalized identities, with multiple characters existing at the intersection of two or more.

And with Black Sails, the queer representation isn’t just in the romantic relationships. The driving action of the plot could not happen without the gay, lesbian, bisexual, and/or polyamorous identities of the main characters. The entire viewpoint of the show is inherently a queer viewpoint. The final, resounding thesis of the show is that it isn’t striving to tell a supposedly historically-accurate version of the 18th century, specifically because the stories of queer and other marginalized people alive at that time were stripped from the historical record by their oppressors. 

Black Sails is, in my opinion, one of the most moving and important pieces of art ever committed to film. Not only are its characters and narrative full of the sort of queer representation that other shows can only ever hint at approaching, it also excels in every other area of filmmaking. The writing and acting are unparalleled, the costumes and sets are gorgeous, the cinematography and fight choreography are among the best that Hollywood has ever produced, and the final episode is in a rarefied category of utterly, sublimely perfect.

BUT-- all of that excellent art, that groundbreaking queer representation, would be missed by someone who followed your advice to boycott any show with even a hint of queerbaiting. Because of the story the creators of Black Sails wanted to tell, the first season -- the first 8 episodes -- are an intentional misdirect. The first season presents itself as a bloody pirate romp, full of violence and nudity and action but no real depth. They marketed that first season as Game-Of-Thrones-With-Pirates.

The show is not that. The show was never meant to be that, and once you reach the big twist near the end of the second season and go back and rewatch the first season, it’s clear that the writers knew what they were doing all along. Again, the primary motivations of the main characters don’t work without their queer identities being central to their decision making, and that’s evident in the first season once you know the characters’ histories.

If people had boycotted Black Sails because of its first season, we never would have gotten the other 30 episodes of beautiful, important storytelling. I agree that it’s vital that we don’t allow serialized media to tempt us along with the promise that the queer representation is just over the horizon, any day now, any day now. But it’s also important to give storytellers the room to tell the story they want to tell, and to support the ones that tell excellent stories with fantastic queer representation.

So if you’re looking for something to soothe the wounds inflicted by queerbaiting, Black Sails is available to stream in its entirety on Starz, Hulu, SlingTV, and several other providers, and the series is readily available on DVD as well.

Okay so I’ve seen a lot of conflicting responses to Buddie this episode, from it being clear to people that they’re getting together, to thinking the writers have unintentionally messed things up to thinking it’s purely queerbait.

And I get the different responses, I do - tbh I’m somehow in two camps, where I simultaneously believe it’s a slowburn but I also think it’s bait. And those are two very different opinions to have and it got me thinking about why we have these different responses as fans to the possibility of a queer ship (namely two men who would presumably be bi/pan) being canon. 

While people talk about how it’s just people wanting two characters to kiss or entitled fans - sure, that’s existent in every fandom, but I think there’s also a very real fear from queer fans who don’t want to get their hopes up and I d on’t love how the conversation has shifted to calling queer fans stupid for having hope, so I kind of wanted to break it down into 3 aspects that I’ve noticed: 

How writers portray bi characters and why that makes fans hesitant to have hope

What queerbait actually means as a concept

How much “slowburn” has changed in procedurals

1. How writers portray bi characters

Something I’ve thought about a lot are the bi characters I’ve seen on TV - Darryl (CEG), Sara Lance (Arrow), Lucifer (Lucifer), just to name a few. These are great characters imo and I think you’d have a fun time watching but a thing to note is that all these characters were established as bi within the first season of their respective shows and they all fairly quickly fell into a clear romantic ship as well (with the exception of Sara as she spanned multiple shows). It may have taken time for them to say the word bisexual, but it was still clear these characters were queer fairly quickly on. You could maybe argue that Lucifer was a slowburn, but then (while it does not take away from him being bi/pan so do not use this as an excuse to be shitty about him) it’s a m/f ship which is still not the point of my post, to find a m/m or f/f ship that has that same treatment.

Some writers have done it - like for Valencia in CEG, or Petra in JTV - when they saw that fans read them this way, but trying to find those characters were few and far between, and when I looked at popular queerbait ships (whether or not they actually are queerbait) it’s usually ships where the characters are largely viewed as bisexual. A lot of times this also comes with pushback from both straight and to be frank, other queer fans as well. Straight fans don’t always see the signs that queer fans do, so to them a queer character who hasn’t been explicitly clear from the start comes out of nowhere. And what I’ve seen from certain queer fans are concerns that people aren’t appreciating the canon queer characters in a show - and I think there is a conversation to be had about that, but I don’t think the response should also be about then demanding less representation for people either. 

If we go back to 911, people talk a lot about how it has canon queer characters, which it definitely does - Michael, Hen, Josh, Karen, and David are all canonically gay/lesbian and that’s awesome, and we absolutely should talk about fans (white fans in particular) ignoring these characters. It also does not change the fact that none of these characters are bisexual and that is the representation people are looking for. Both of these things are true - these characters are often under appreciated in canon AND people deserve bisexual representation. They don’t contradict each other and to act like one negates the other does a huge disservice.

And even if a character was made bisexual in the canon text we don’t get that slowburn. This may be true for things like Leverage, or LOK, but there’s also a real fact of censorship that affected these shows and the fact that general audiences may not understand the queer text tjat the writers intended. It doesn’t make the writing any less wonderful or the ships any less poignant or beautiful or important, and there’s ofc shows like She Ra that made this more obvious (or the.....mess that was Supernatural that made it. Half true?) but these are still real things that should be acknowledged on why people are so hesitant to call it slowburn - because it’s something most queer fans haven’t SEEN DONE, because m/f ships will get that care for slowburn when it’s done but it’s not done for m/m or f/f ships in that same capacity.

2. What queerbait is

This one’s fun because I don’t think many people understand what it is, but queerbait is very dependent on the intentions of the writers/creators/etc. - which tbh can be hard to gauge, because a genuine intention that ended up not happening or someone baiting fans or someone trying to support all ships and not be rude all have very different intentions but to a fan who only sees bits and pieces of this person on social media, it can be hard to gauge.

Honestly with how much the 4th wall gets broken because of social media now I’d personally say we’ve probably moved into a different definition of queerbait - unintentional vs intentional - because we’re at a point where a show knows what ships are popular and at what level of excitement fans are for it - but that being said, there’s still a clear spectrum of intent. And imo? I don’t think 911 has that intent of queerbait - whether it’s a slowburn or they have a different vision for buddie that I (probably) won’t agree with remains to be seen, but this show usually treats its storylines with care. Are they perfect at it? No, definitely not, I definitely think that they’ve dropped the ball a few times (especially with just how many characters they have lmao), but they also clearly do their storylines with earnest and with genuine care for these characters.

Is 911 getting them together? I want to say yes. I don’t think this was always the plan, just something that they decided along the way, but I also don’t think that changes anything about the ship. A lot of people point to Tim Minear being vague about the ship, or the actors and their interpretations, but 1. We have no idea what they’ve been told about Buddie moving forward and 2. No show runner is going to spoil their show that much. 911 may be keeping quiet because they have a different plan for buddie, sure, but also maybe because they’re still figuring out how exactly they want to do this and/or they want to make this slowburn and don’t want to give it away.

3. Slowburn in procedurals

I feel like this is something that procedurals have started shying away from, but slowburns used to be very common - Bones, Castle, their ships didn’t get together for literal years, but that’s just not something that many shows do nowadays, even for m/f ships. Even things like Deckerstar will have the characters get together after ~3 seasons and explore the relationship onwards, whereas a few years ago, y ou’d pr obably be watching a sh ow and it’d take them 7 seasons to get together. My assumption for this is that shows are afraid  of getting canceled, but there’s been a pretty big shift in getting a couple together after say, 6 seasons to now getting them together about halfway through the show. I don’t think either one is bad or good - in good writers’ hands, either can be amazing - but that shift has made it so that a lot of younger fans in particular, I think, don’t fully recognize slowburn when they see it.

911 as a show tends to run pretty fast - it kind of has to with its depth of characters they have - but when they do have slower running storylines they really do make use of that as well. Bobby’s addiction is something that’s always going to be present in his character, May’s suicide attempt was brought up again front and center after 3 seasons, even Chim’s dynamic with the Lees was brought up again and it was reinforced again that they’re his family. There are certain storylines that have to be continuous and aren’t a one and done type of thing, and that includes Buck and Eddie, especially if you want to establish them as queer to a general audience who doesn’t think about these things.

And honestly, despite my fears, I think they are laying groundwork there. We have Buck learning to be more confident in his relationships, we have Eddie ready to date and learning to follow his own heart, we have Buck and Eddie both establishing that Buck is family and will always be there for Christopher. These are pretty big steps to do for a ship and we’ll obviously have to see how the show goes forward but they’ve already insinuated Eddie and Ana are breaking up, I’m sure Taylor and Buck may last a season and be over, but we do have to see what this next season brings. Do I think they’d say this? No, definitely not.

tl;dr: 

911 is a show with good viewership, but there’s always a possibility they can’t continue with their season and then their promises would feel like a lie. Or they may still be hammering out the details as this season hasn’t been written. Or they may just simply not want to spoil their show,  or they don’t want people criticizing a story before it’s finished, all of these could be reasons. The showrunners, writers, actors, ultimately they owe nothing to us as a fandom to potentially spoil their series, or do something, change it or their schedule for it, and get accused of bait. 

But it also doesn’t change why fans are wary of this storyline either, and I wish people would have more nuance and compassion for fans who are worried about queerbait (whether they think it’s not queerbait and dislike people worrying about it or if they do and are calling people idiots for believing it). There’s a lot of reasons why fans are wary and don’t want to have hope, and it’s not necessarily about 911 specifically as it is a pattern of writing seen in other pieces that have fans worried. These things can all coexist and I wish we as fandom in general could acknowledge that, because pretending that they don’t and criticizing each other/people’s intentions or knowledge when they have certain expectations also doesn’t do much to help.