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ineffable-romantics · 10 months

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Some thoughts on why and how I believe Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship would incorporate sex/why I do not read them as wholly asexual:

This is something I've seen the most discourse about in this fandom, and I've had a few thoughts of my own that I really wanted to expand upon in a full meta/character analysis post. I do understand that this can be a contentious topic, so first, let me clarify a few things:

First of all, this is going to be long. Tbh it probably won't be that organized either. I ramble and I'm not very good at editing, so just... you know. Be warned. (*Hi, it's me from 2 days after writing this; I'm really not kidding, it's LONG)

These are all my own thoughts. They might not be hot takes, because recently I've seen more than a few people come to the same conclusions on a lot of these points as I have. But I've also had these notes in my drafts for about a week and a half now, and have been continuously adding to it as things have occurred to me. This post is essentially just somewhere for me to collect the separate but related meta I've been kicking around in my head.

I fully respect anyone who does see and prefer an asexual reading of this relationship. These are my own thoughts and interpretations as someone who is not asexual. I am in the LGBT+ community, so while I do know a few things about the asexuality spectrum, I am by no means an expert.

This is NOT something I expect, need, or even necessarily want the show (or, God forbid, Neil's tumblr ask box) to address. Tonally, it's just not that kind of show. Newt and Anathema's sex scene was very much played for laughs, and it worked for that reason. If the show found a way to address it in a way that was both appropriate for the tone of the show and ultimately satisfying, then great! But there is so much more to this relationship than sex, and I didn't need a kiss to confirm their love, so I certainly don't need a sex scene. As immortal beings (as I assume they'll stay) there is so much of the rest of their lives we'll never get to see. You can headcanon them as asexual and potentially be right. I can headcanon them as not and be equally potentially right. Again, these are just a collection of my own thoughts, because I think the question of sexuality (or lack thereof) is just as interesting a facet of these characters as any other.

Note: Tbh I've been second-guessing this whole post and debated deleting the whole thing several times for being silly or unnecessary, bc I don't want anyone to think that this is the only thing I care about when it comes to this story/characters. But if nothing else, it's inspired me to write in a way that nothing has in a very long time, so I've decided it's worth continuing, if for no other reason than that.

This is going to be a mixed bag of textual reading, subtextual reading, and a full-on reach or two. It's been a while since I've been in an English class, but if my teachers expected me to find a deeper meaning behind blue curtains, you can expect me to read too deeply into the symbolism of a loaded rifle or an ox rib. (This is probably not what my professors had in mind when grading my literary analysis papers but oh well) My point is, if it feels like a reach, I'm as aware of it as you are. I am in no way saying that all (or even any) of my points made were deliberate on the part of Neil or the actors or the writers or the directors. I am no longer the delulu Apple Tree Yard child of my youth, I promise.

If anything said here is in any way offensive or hurtful to anyone in the asexual community, please do not hesitate to message me or comment and let me know exactly what it was. I promise you it is not my intention to do so, and am happy to clarify or outright edit anything that reads that way.

With all that being said, let's talk about why I think Crowley and Aziraphale would absolutely fuck nasty incorporate sex into their relationship.

Note: I am out of practice with essay writing, so I think I'll just go down the bullet points of notes I have been making, and expand on each as best I can

Food

Where better to start than with Aziraphale's introduction to Pleasures Of The Flesh? (Just a heads up, this entire post may feel very Aziraphale-heavy, and with good reason).

This might be the least hot take here. We've all seen the Job minisode. We've all seen That Scene.

Whether this was intentional or not, the symbolism here is off the charts. Eve was tempted by an apple. So why not go a similar route and tempt Aziraphale with another fruit, or cheese, or bread, or literally anything else for his first experience with food? Instead, we go with a huge, glistening slab of fresh meat that he proceeds to absolutely go feral upon, moaning and gasping into his meal while Crowley watches with what definitely doesn't look to be disgust or even satisfaction with a good temptation. There's surprise at the ferocity of Aziraphale's appetite, certainly. But ultimately he looks to be intensely fascinated by it, while the thunder crashes, the music crescendos, and the earth literally shakes around them.

(It's also interesting to note how very little it takes for Crowley to tempt him with the ox rib. One murmured suggestion, a bit of unwavering eye contact, and vavoom Aziraphale immediately meets him in the middle.)

Cut to Aziraphale devouring the rest of the meat with Crowley splayed back on a makeshift bed, drinking wine and continuing to watch him indulge through half-lidded eyes. Outside a thunderstorm rages while they're learning secrets about each other in warm flickering firelight. It's cosy, it's intimate, and if they'd thrown in a bearskin throw blanket, it might as well be a post-coital scene straight out of Game of Thrones.

The next time (chronologically) we see them discuss food is when Aziraphale "tempts" Crowley with oysters in Rome. So Crowley first tempts Aziraphale with meat and then Aziraphale tempts Crowley with what is widely regarded to be an aphrodisiac. Interesting.

And then chronologically after that, the Arrangement begins to form, which has always reeked of a friends with benefits situation. Just to throw that in there.

It's What Humans Do

In the very first episode, we're shown Gabriel's obvious disgust and bewilderment towards Aziraphale eating sushi, calling it "gross matter" and being proud of the fact that he does not sully his body with it. Aziraphale initially tries to defend his own enjoyment in it, before passing it off as something that humans do, as something he simply has to do in order to blend in (which we know very well is not the case).

He does this again in season 2, passing off Nina and Maggie being in love as "something humans do". But it isn't, is it? Angels are beings of love, and can sense it, and understand very well what it is... up to a point. Even romantic love is obviously within their wheelhouse, given what we now know happened between Gabriel and Beelzebub (we'll come back to them).

What the "humans do" that angels wouldn't understand is messy, physical forms of love.

But here's the thing: Aziraphale and Crowley love doing what the humans do. They love drinking, they (or at least Aziraphale) love eating. They love music. Crowley loves driving and sleeping and watching rom-coms and sitcoms. Aziraphale loves reading and doing magic and earning little licenses and certificates for achievement in his various hobbies. They love to playact at being human so much that they've stopped playacting and started building a genuinely human lifestyle for themselves and with each other.

Once together in an unambiguously romantic sense, why do we think they wouldn't also want to explore one of the most prominent, intimate, powerful human expressions of love and desire with each other?

Angels, Demons, & Asexuality

Here's where I really want to clarify that in no way do I mean that sex is necessary for a healthy, fulfilling, and loving romantic relationship, or that the lack of desire for sex makes you any less human. Asexuality is a sexuality as valid and human as any. What I would say is that it is definitely in the human minority compared to allosexuality.

Angels and demons, on the other hand, are predominately asexual. Sexless/genderless unless Making An Effort. (Which, btw, is a concept introduced as early as the original book; why even bring it up as a possibility? Why not keep angels/demons being sexless/asexual as a hard and fast rule, if not to open up the potential for later use? Chekhov's Effort, if you will. And isn't that something that Aziraphale in particular is shown to do time and time again? He makes an effort in French and driving and magic, doesn't he?)

And this is why I don't believe Aziraphale and Crowley necessarily need to be asexual, narratively. There is already a huge amount of ace rep within the angels and demons (and no, not just the horrible ones. Muriel also doesn't "drink the tea" and has no reason or desire thus far to Make An Effort, and there are certainly other angels and demons who aren't horrible like the archangels seem to be who likely wouldn't Make An Effort either).

The central conflict for Aziraphale and Crowley is that they are on their own side, the ones who went native, the ones who are so different in so many ways from their respective hives. It would make sense for them to also break away from traditional angel/demon asexuality.

I say "traditional angel/demon asexuality", because I would also like to note that I would absolutely not rule out demisexuality for either of them. This post is being written to as a response to people who specifically believe that they (like the rest of the angels/demons seem to be) would be sex-averse in a relationship, and that it wouldn't be a factor in their relationship. I could easily read them as demisexual, but I do think there would be no real way of verifying this, because they've never been able to form as close an emotional relationship with anyone else but each other. Certainly not in heaven, and I can't imagine they would be able to form that kind of attachment with any of the humans, who they love and emulate but ultimately regard as the separate species they are. So yes, they could either be allosexual or demisexual, in my opinion.

Then again, now that I think about it, Making An Effort itself could be a great metaphor for demisexuality, since they would be entirely sexless/asexual until they have enough of an emotional connection with someone to consciously manifest otherwise. Since the other angels and demons don't generally form those types of emotional connections with anyone, there hasn't been a precedent for it.

Except...

Brielzebub

We do have a precedent for it now, don't we? Gabriel and Beelzebub fell in love. They are a direct foil for Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship, speedrunning right through their courtship and finding their happily ever after on the other side of things.

For being such a 1 to 1 comparison, it feels deliberate that they did not kiss. They held hands, they were gooey with each other, but they did not kiss. That feels like such a deliberate thing to omit when you know what's to come at the end of the episode between Crowley and Aziraphale.

And going back to the food = sex metaphor for a moment, let's notice how even as they fell in love over the years, even when pints and crisps were there on the table in front of them, they never felt the desire to reach out for them. They didn't need to. It's a date (love story) even if you aren't eating dinner (sleeping together).

Yes, I know Jim liked hot chocolate. No, I am not counting it because I don't consider Jim and Gabriel to be the same person with the same proclivities, and Jim was highly suggestible at the time anyway.

Gabriel and Brielzebub's big happily ever after moment (as of now) was one between two asexual supernatural beings. They did not need to kiss to drive the point home. They showed what Crowley and Aziraphale could have, if they would only acknowledge it.

Crowley & Aziraphale's Dissatisfaction

But they do have that already, don't they? If you really think about it, what do Gabriel and Beelzebub do with each other that Crowley and Aziraphale don't already? They hold hands, they spend time together, they create little rituals, they give gifts, they're visibly and verbally affectionate with each other, etc. They are more or less already in a romantic asexual marriage relationship with each other, aren't they?

And it doesn't seem to be enough for either of them.

At the beginning of the season, Crowley is immediately shown to be unsatisfied with the way things are. Obviously part of it comes from living in his car, but it seems to be more than that (especially since Aziraphale makes it clear that the bookshop is just as much Crowley's as his, implying that he could have been living there the whole time and is choosing not to, for some reason?). You could argue he's feeling unmoored without Hell telling him what to do, but isn't that what he wanted? Isn't that what he still wants, by the end of the season? All season long, he's never indicated the desire for a new job, or a new project. He stopped the apocalypse because he wanted the freedom to openly spend time with Aziraphale, to spend his time on Earth however he sees fit. Until Gabriel arrives, he has exactly that (minus a flat).

So where does the dissatisfaction come from? And if it represents anything to do with his relationship, what does he want out of it that he isn't getting already?

I think Crowley only really comes to the realisation of what he's missing when Nina names it for him, not only putting them in the category of romantic, but physical (outright asking if they are sleeping together). These two posts [1], [2] go into more detail about what I mean, but I think it really pushes him into acknowledging that their relationship is more human than either of them have stopped to consider, and what that might mean as far as everything a human relationship can entail.

After all, Nina and Maggie only advised that he should talk to Aziraphale, make clear his feelings. The decision to kiss him, to tip them over the edge from nonphysical to physical, that was all him. And no, kissing isn't sex, but I wonder how taboo even that might be in the kind of all-encompassing asexuality most angels seem to identify with. (If they're disgusted by food and drink, I can only imagine what they think of snogging, much less sex.)

Aziraphale doesn't have this moment of someone observing their relationship from the outside. He loves Crowley, and as of 1941 probably even knows he's in love with him in a way that Crowley doesn't understand yet. Which makes sense, since love is technically his job, he'd be more likely to recognise it for what it is.

However, Aziraphale's reference for romance and relationships is Jane Austen. It's chaste. It's dancing and dinner and doing sweet things for each other and roses and candles and handholding. He contextualises his love for Crowley in that soft fantasy sort of way, where it's there, it's obviously there, but it's neat and easy and unspoken. Not to quote Glee in this, the year of our lord 2023, but it's all very "the touch of the fingertips is as sexy as it gets".

Someone should tell that to Aziraphale's face, then.

I'm not going to pretend I know what Michael Sheen's script notes were, but there were definitely some Choices™ made. Because yes, there were plenty of moments in both seasons with Aziraphale looking at Crowley in a sweet, loving, smitten way. And then there were moments that were yearning.

But yearning for what, exactly? All of those sappy Jane Austen tropes already apply to the two of them. So why are there moments where Aziraphale is looking Crowley up and down like the last eclair in the window and licking his lips and visibly exhaling like he's trying to get in control of himself (see: Bastille scene + Crowley telling Muriel to ask him if they have any other questions about love)? Why is Aziraphale not only unconcerned when Crowley shoves him bodily up against a wall in s1, but staring at his lips and a beat too late in noticing Sister Mary's arrival? Why are some of his lines so suggestive? I'm sorry, but the car ride after the church explosion might as well have been the beginning of a Pizza Man porn with a really weird Blitz theme. If even my mother picked up on that vibe, I can't imagine it wasn't intentional on part of both the dialogue and the delivery.

(This section may feel like more of a reach/joke, but I'm really only 20% joking. These are writers and actors who are EXTREMELY good at their jobs; they know what they were doing here.)

More importantly, I don't think Aziraphale is even aware that there is more to what he wants. He lives in the Jane Austen fantasy and it never even occurs to him that he might be interested in anything further. It never even occurs to him that, as an angel, there is anything further to be interested in in the first place. Until Crowley forces it to occur to him. Just like I believe Nina forced Crowley to confront the idea that romantic love is what he's been feeling all along, I believe Crowley forced Aziraphale to confront the idea that physical intimacy is something he's been wanting, without even realising.

Aziraphale's Hedonism

Expanding on Aziraphale for a moment. We talked about his relationship with food, but we all know that Aziraphale is defined by his love of things that Feel Good.

It isn't just that he and Crowley love human things. Aziraphale loves the best of the best, or at least his version of it. He doesn't just love food, he loves going to fancy restaurants. He doesn't just love clothes, he loves soft, cosy, warm, plush clothes, or shiny, flashy, bougie fashion. He loves the warmth of tea and cocoa, loves getting drunk, and sitting in a comfy chair in the sunlight. He doesn't just experience, he indulges.

Given the emphasis put on things that Aziraphale loves just because they Feel Good, it feels narratively strange to assume that he wouldn't enjoy the feeling of being touched, or that he wouldn't be willing to try it, at least once, with someone he cared very deeply for. And just like the ox rib, I think that once he gets the first taste of things, he would absolutely tip over into complete and utter self-indulgence.

Dancing

I also think that dancing could be construed as a huge metaphor here. After all, we're told flat-out that angels don't Dance. Except one.

I would argue that Aziraphale, in fact, Made An Effort to learn how to Dance. He threw himself into the gavotte with delight (at a Victorian gay club; noted) and worked hard to be good at it. He's chomping at the bit to Dance with Crowley, working up the nerve to ask him with undeniably romantic intent and eagerness. So, angels don't Dance... unless they Make An Effort to do so.

We are told that demons, on the other hand, do Dance, but not well. Makes sense, since they're the ones who would want to encourage a deadly sin like lust, but have as little understanding of human love and physical intimacy as the angels. Crowley, however, is shown to be an excellent dancer at the ball, especially in his compatibility with Aziraphale.

(But Aziraphale WandaVisioned the ball so everyone knew how to dance! Yes, he did. However, the rest of the brainwashing doesn't seem to affect Crowley in any way, and they did actually live through the time period where this sort of dancing was a social norm; I'd be surprised if he never needed to learn. After all, the demons can't spell either, and Crowley is at least functionally literate, as far as we know.)

As of today, it's also been confirmed that when Aziraphale asked Crowley to dance, Crowley replied with "you don't dance." Not "WE don't dance". So going along with the metaphor, Crowley is just now discovering that Dancing is something Aziraphale is interested in at all, much less with him, and not denying that he himself is interested in Dancing. In his defense, I believe he was asleep for a few years while Aziraphale was learning the gavotte, so he wasn't exactly aware of Aziraphale's hot girl summer.

Love Languages

I want to expand on that; Crowley and Aziraphale's compatibility. Specifically in regards to their individual love languages.

We all know Crowley's love language is Acts of Service. I don't think there's any debate there. He loves it, Aziraphale loves it, they're both aware of it, we're all aware of it, God and Satan are aware of it, no surprise there.

You may disagree with me, but I believe Aziraphale's love language is Physical Touch, for a number of reasons. One of which being his aforementioned hedonism. Aziraphale likes things that Feel Good, remember? He likes soft clothes, and well-worn books. Neil himself has said that they like holding hands. And any time he is taken by surprise (Brielzebub getting together, the wave of love in Tadfield, etc.) what is the first thing he does? Reaches out for Crowley. He stops him with a hand to the chest in the pub. He leads him by the hand to the dance floor. He guides him by the waist in the graveyard. He reaches out during the entire Brielzebub scene, whether he can reach Crowley or not. Despite his own turmoil, he grasps at Crowley's back during the kiss.

The one time Crowley reaches out for him (not counting the kiss yet; we'll get there), he is aggressively pushed against a wall (by someone he loves and trusts) with a complete and utter lack of concern (and perhaps some interest, depending on how you read it).

And when he isn't reaching out for anyone, or there isn't anyone to reach out to? Well, he's wringing his own hands together, squeezing his own fingers, as if to find that physical comfort in himself.

So. With that theory in mind, we have Aziraphale (Physical Touch) + Crowley (Acts of Service). Throw in 6000+ years of deep love, cherished companionship, and forcibly repressed longing, and there is a very real potential of this combination resulting in fierce sexual compatibility. Where Aziraphale would want to touch and be touched, to indulge in physical pleasure with someone he adores, in the same the way he indulges in every other fine thing in his life. And where Crowley would want to indulge him in return, to give him everything he wants, and to take pleasure in Aziraphale's pleasure, in the same way he enjoys watching him take joy in food everything else.

So Aziraphale is an angel who is insecure about his own less-than-holy desires, who would want to treat Crowley like a luxury to be touched and cherished and adored. And Crowley is a demon who has, over the millennia, been unhappy about how they've been forced to deny even their friendship with each other, who would want Aziraphale to feel comfortable and safe and encouraged to indulge in earthly delights. That sounds like a stunning recipe for sexual compatibility to me.

"You said 'trust me'" / "And you did"

Just like the Job minisode, the Blitz is RIFE with symbolism (intentional or otherwise). This one will be quick, but I did want to touch on it because I thought it was interesting. Maybe I'm reaching at this point, but I'm assuming you read the tin.

First of all, Crowley not wanting to admit to never firing a gun before; comes off as someone who very much does not want to admit to their crush that they're a virgin ("You must have done this lots of times!" / "Umm.... yyyyyeah.")

(You could make the argument that Aziraphale having a firearms license and a Derringer in a hollowed-out book is symbolic of him not being a virgin while Crowley is. I disagree, for reasons I'll go into later, but it's a valid reading. However, I see it more like keeping a condom in your wallet; it's there in case you need it, but the opportunity has not yet risen no pun intended.)

More importantly, the theme of this entire minisode is trust. We already know they trust each other with their lives against the rest of Heaven, Hell, and the world. But specifically, this is about the importance of having complete trust in your partner in a charged, physically vulnerable, intimate moment, where the only danger is between the two of you.

Aziraphale needs to believe Crowley would never hurt him if he can help it. Crowley needs to trust Aziraphale's unwavering blind faith in him. Frankly, it all feels very symbolic of two people deeply in love losing their respective virginities with each other.

The trick is a success, and they share an intimate candlelit dinner in which they reaffirm their faith in each other. Aziraphale also begins to voice his agreement with Crowley, that maybe Heaven's rules shouldn't have to be as black and white as they are, and that there are benefits to... blurring the lines, shades of grey, wink wink (at which point even my mom was like, whoa guys, this is a family show).

Btw also: Can we all agree how much it looked like Crowley was getting ready to get a lapdance in that one scene? You know the one.

Also also: "Aim for my mouth"? Come on.

The Birds & The Bees

Now that I think of it, there's also something to be said for the fact that Crowley and Aziraphale are both obviously familiar with where babies come from (how they're made and how they're born) while the other angels aren't.

Something something Aziraphale and Crowley fundamentally understand sex and reproduction in a way the other angels (and probably demons) very much do not, nor have any desire to.

Probably not important. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

The Kiss™ & Religious Trauma

The Kiss. Where to even begin?

This has definitely been the hardest one to start, because there is so much going on here that I definitely won't be able to cover it all, and will certainly miss a few things here and there.

Aziraphale's reaction to the kiss afterwards is the most interesting to me. And I don't mean directly after, I don't mean the "I forgive you" part. I mean the way he touches his lips when Crowley is no longer in the room and he no longer needs to save face, when he is completely alone. Had it been directly after the kiss, it would have been rightfully read as horror, or disgust, a shield to discourage further action.

It's not. It isn't just a touch, it's a press. As desperate and angry and unexpected and imperfect as the kiss had been, Aziraphale is pressing it into himself, recreating the feeling as best he can. Beneath all the poor timing and shock and hurt from their fight and fallout, I think it's fair to say that it was something he enjoyed. Something he doesn't think he should enjoy, something that Feels Good that he only allows himself to indulge in when completely alone.

Remember, Aziraphale's idea of love is Jane Austen and gentleness and courtship and fantasy. If he'd ever even considered kissing an option, it might have been gentle pecks, cheek kisses, forehead kiss, hand kisses. Soft, safe, chaste affection.

Crowley's kiss turns all of that on its head. He introduces physical intimacy in a very real, very messy, very human way that I don't think Aziraphale ever even considered could apply to them. Considering what other angels are like and what they look down on, even Aziraphale's Jane Austen fantasies probably would have been considered taboo.

So for their first kiss to be rough and desperate and passionate in the way it was, of course he was confused and in shock. It was deeply physical, and as overwhelming and awful as it was in the moment, it Felt Good. Enough that he grasped at Crowley and kissed back, if only just for a moment, before stopping himself. Enough that he actively pressed it into his lips afterwards, in private, to remember.

I adore how Neil has decided to evolve these characters past the first book/season. More so in this season, Aziraphale and Crowley have both become such interesting allegories for queer people on either side of the spectrum of toxic religion. Aziraphale in particular obviously, because he is the side that so desperately wants to believe, to make a difference, and to unlearn all of the propaganda he's been fed over such a long time. Just like so much of organised religion, there is so much that he is told, time and time again, that he should not want, that he is silly or stupid or outright wrong for wanting. It reminds me so much of the severe Catholic guilt one might feel for wanting/engaging in sex for the first time, and the stigma of being queer layered on top of that.

What is so critical to Aziraphale's character is that he goes on wanting, and more than that, actively pursues. He was convinced to go up against Heaven and Hell and stop all of Armageddon because he wanted to go on listening to music and eating lunch and reading books and enjoying the simple company of the person he cares most deeply for, even if that person is supposed to be the enemy.

All this to say that if angels are as generally asexual/sex-averse as I believe them to be, narratively speaking, it would make sense for Aziraphale to be singular in that regard as well. Mirroring his first experience with food, it would make sense for Crowley to be the one to first introduce this new messy, physical, human dynamic between them, for Aziraphale to hesitate (obviously we are at the Hesitation phase at the moment), and then (eventually) for him to dive in wholeheartedly, to absolutely glut himself on this new thing that Feels Good. It would make sense for his character development to show him overcoming his metaphorical Catholic guilt and pursuing the sexual intimacy most (if not all) of the other angels would scorn.

(I can't help but remember that plot idea Neil described from the unwritten sequel, with Aziraphale in a hotel room trying to watch a full porno by way of the free 2-minute teaser clips so he wasn't technically sinning by paying for it. I so hope this is used in season 3, because gosh, I wonder why Aziraphale would suddenly be so interested in observing human physical intimacy after 6,000 years. Lonely and doing a little surreptitious research there, angel?)

Crowley, on the other hand, is the queer person who has broken free from his toxic religion. He prides himself on being his own person, on their his own side. He doesn't have the hang-ups Aziraphale does. He doesn't worry that he's going to be judged or cast aside for wanting things he's not supposed to. So it only makes sense for him to be the first one to suggest/initiate physical intimacy. It makes sense for him to be the one who "goes too fast" (another fantastic example of this dynamic beginning as early as s1; what is that conversation in the car meant to represent, if not Aziraphale being overwhelmed by the intensity of their relationship, and his fear of succumbing to it when he believes he shouldn't? It's also interesting that this is the first conversation to take place in Soho, just after watching Aziraphale realise he's caught feelings for a demon, with the red glow of lust serving as the backdrop).

Do I think the kiss in and of itself was sexual? No. I think it was a passionate and devastating last-ditch effort on Crowley's part to convey the way he feels for Aziraphale. Not just that he loves him, but that he loves him in the most human way possible. But I do think that the kiss represents how they can move forward from here, and what they might want to explore with each other once they feel free enough to do so.

In Conclusion

I am sure, deep in my bones (unless we are explicitly told otherwise), that this was both of their first kisses no, I'm not counting the gavotte, and that neither of them have ever thought to do anything else physical with the humans while they have been on Earth. Like I said before, they adore the human race and lifestyle in general, but ultimately view them as a separate species altogether, and they seem mostly happy to keep to themselves and each other, unless otherwise necessary. I just can't see either of them being drawn enough to a human to pursue anything close to sex. If Crowley in particular has had anything to do with sex in the context of temptations, I'm positive he would be inciting lust amongst the humans themselves, not involving himself directly. At least not that directly.

So, like every other human experience they've had on Earth, sex is something new that they could explore together, just the two of them, on their own side. A deeply intimate, tangible declaration of their love and everything they've gone through to earn it. A visceral finger to give both Heaven and Hell. A renewed appreciation for their corporations and for each other's. A enjoyable method for immortal beings to simply pass the time in each other's company. A new and exciting way to Feel Good, and all the variations that come with it.

You might agree with this post, or you might not. Whether this is something that is ever addressed or not, it doesn't matter to me. This is a brilliant love story either way, and I genuinely feel so privileged to witness it.

But I just can't find it in myself to imagine, given everything we know about these two characters, that sex isn't an experience they would both consume with wholehearted enthusiasm, curiosity, and profound, ineffable adoration.

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Bonus feature: the very silly notes I made to myself that inspired this post

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haphazardcorvid · 8 months

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There's something sort of distorted with how grief is currently being seen and dealt with on the island + Qsmp.

I've been thinking about this for a while during the missing egg arc, but Bagi implying that Foolish wasn't that attached to Leo has finally pushed me into putting the thoughts into words.

I really don't like how several of the islanders - especially the new ones - view grief and expressions of grief. It's like they expect all grief to be big and loud and performative, and otherwise, it isn't as significant, or as important. Like how Bagi's expectations for sadness seem to be shaped by Bbh's very visual, obvious deterioration, and disregards that MAYBE, just MAYBE, not everyone is going to shove their feelings in your face when they barely know you? That some people may break down privately, where you are not privy to their thoughts, and you are not entitled to a public performance of that grief in order to verify that they do, in fact, care?

It's not just islanders who haven't spent much time with the eggs either - Forever himself said he thought that, ASIDE FROM BAGHERA AND BBH, everyone was simply moving on and living life without the eggs. Funnily enough, these are both players with skins that specifically denote emotional turmoil :). Does grief have to expressly visualised for people to acknowledge that it's there? That was particularly jarring as a Philza main, who's character was and is currently going through a drealisation and mental deterioration arc after going to suspicious coordinates (the birdcage) FOR THE SAKE OF HIS EGGS.

Most annoyingly it also bleeds into the fandom sometimes, despite the fact we have the benefit of meta awareness. I've seen posts or comments about how 'oh, bbh is the only one truly miserable about the eggs' 'other islanders aren't suffering about the kids like ___".

It's just striking having watched Fit, a person whom canonically struggles with outward expressions of vulnerable emotion due to his background but clearly deeply misses Ramon, who would fall into this 'unaffected' category because he's not giving showy public displays or monologues about his feelings. Or Phil, who to members of the island who haven't reached out to him on those topics, seems largely still like a strong rock to lean on because he plunged himself into propping up other islanders the moment he returned - but behind closed doors fell apart at Tallulah's letter and is clearly rapidly deteriorating as a character. Or Foolish, who maintains an upbeat character, retains his capacity to carry on moving, and lives as brightly as he can while SIMULTANEOUSLY being completely broken up internally about his daughter. You can see it in the way they talk about their kids, how they rush to collect any clues whenever they pop up, how many of them seem to be living in limbo, incapable of new changes and beginnings.

And alright. So that's not explicit to those other characters. But it should not have to be visually explicit for them to not degrade their grief. The assumption should not be that grief is either public or nonexistent. You are not entitled to flashy displays of feeling. Forthright and in your face emotion is not the baseline requirement for distress. Demeaning someone's attachment to their child because they aren't grieving in the RIGHT way for YOU, one that isn't visible enough to YOU, isn't excusable because 'oh I can't really see how that person is feeling though'. It's basic social understanding.

And of course they are aware of the mental and emotional states of their friends - who are also very visual with their grieving - above others, because those people are ALSO the ones that those like Bagi and Forever consistently interact with for prolonged periods of time. Have they actually really, deeply talked with all the other islanders about their internal state? No, of course not, they don't spend that much time with them and aren't that close. That's not bad or anything, that's life and relationships and very normal. But then what grounds do those assumptions of 'oh, there are parents who don't care' actually have? They themselves should be capable of acknowledging that they don't actually have insight into these other people, and they should not be using the expressions of grief from say Baghera and Bbh as a cudgel to cheapen and diminish that of others.

#Sorry that's a lot #It was all adding up slowly - just an awareness of a general disregard some people had for how others were processing the disappearance #But the fact that it didn't get resolved with time and in fact seems worse just pulled it out of me all at once #The Foolish and Bagi thing mainly #Just how being subtle in your distress leads particular people to brush it off or pretend you feel quite the opposite is frustrating #And soz kinda personal lmao #as a person who has struggled heavily mentally but has had it devalued using how others outwardly react to their own issues #It kinda resonated #Foosh you are valid and a brilliant father to me #qsmp #qsmp foolish #qsmp baghera #qsmp forever #qsmp bagi #qsmp eggs #qsmp philza #qsmp fitmc #qsmp badboyhalo #Edit - just to note this is about the characters and their interactions only #It would be stupid to be saying this about actual ccs lmao

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anarchywoofwoof · 1 month

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Hello, Thank You For Being Here (Pt. 3)

other links: twitter | twitch | bluesky | neocities

side blogs: @toocoolforghoul & @in-the-woods

old pinned post

hello. my name is biddy. my pronouns are whatever, but you can use he/him if that makes it easier. i am a degenerate Anarchist dog from the Midwestern United States. i am 33 years old and taken (@thatcrazywitch). i am AuDHD, i suffer from severe anxiety, cptsd, depression, contamination OCD, and dyspraxia.

this blog serves as the primary source for my thoughts, feelings, ramblings, shitposts, life happenings, art, and whatever else crosses my mind. the topics will vary wildly, but you can expect a lot of the following:

anarchist and leftist agitprop

general us political news and opinions

world news

climate change/environmental news

poetry, prose, and other writing

random personal diatribes

animals

memes

silly text posts

photos of my dog

i find DNIs pointless, but i would ask if you are a TERF, transphobe, zionist, hardline religious zealot, or otherwise a fascist, for you to unkindly go fuck yourself. this blog is an unyielding ally to all marginalized and/or oppressed peoples, including but not limited to trans folks or any other queer-identifying individuals, Black and Indigenous peoples, and many others. you get a block immediately when interacting with my posts. i will not engage, so please do not waste anyone's time.

here are some tags that i frequently use. i am terrible at keeping up with them and i largely reblog without tags and then go back and add them later when i have time.

Text Posts: #text, #bork bork thoughts

Ask Responses: #borking back

Tumblr-Related: #meta

My Dog: #sweet princess peregrine

Other Dogs: #anarchodogism

Cats: #cats on the bork blog

Anarchoposting: #anarchy, #anarchism, #anarchist

OC Graphics: #oc, #learning photoshop through play

OC Poetry: #oc, #poetry

Non-OC Memes: #memes, #not oc

Wholesome Posts: #happy borks

please be advised: if i fail to tag something appropriately or reblog from someone detestable, please message me or send me an anonymous ask and let me know. DO NOT REBLOG MY POSTS WITH PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE COMMENTS. i treat people with respect when they treat me with respect. but i will publicly dress you down if you break this rule and then block you. this is the only warning i will give. no exceptions.

otherwise, please feel free to like or reblog anything i post. if it was too personal to be reblogged, i wouldn't share it. so don't worry about breaking tumblr protocol. i'm too old and tired to care about that.

my sense of humor is also very deadpan/sarcastic, so please keep this in mind when interacting. if something seems out of character, ask me for clarification and i'll provide it. there's a good chance that i'm probably just being silly. i love you, enjoy your stay.

#pinned post

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crimeronan · 2 months

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On the topic of How Do You Handle XYZ Comment, I've always wondered how you handle terrible responses on your toh takes. Like I know the toh fandom doesn't lack piss on the poor reading comprehension and they also really enjoy wildly out of touch takes, but I've never seen any comments on your princess luz stuff of that nature. I'm sure they must be there but maybe I'm too early? But anyway, how do you tend to deal with the "acktually shipping luz and Hunter is incest" and the "ur not a real lesbian because putting amity in a poly ship is lesbian erasure" and the "as a white person kinda sus you make the poc woman an empress" kind of responses? Ones that are technically not hate and maybe if you squint could be from people who aren't inherently trying to do bad but just lack the maturity needed to engage with the internet at large?

this ask made me giggle. honestly, i haven't received as much pushback as you might expect! way less pushback than i expected. in the princess AU, i've gotten a LOT more "this is actually too grotesque for me to stomach" comments than "this is problematic" comments, which is fine. horror-thriller isn't for everyone, those comments do not upset me.

i have had a Few run-ins with bad faith people, whom i mostly block. there's one prolific commenter in toh tumblr fandom who would repeatedly write angry essays on my humor meta posts -- essays that were all about how belos is too evil to be sympathetic and/or about how hunter is a soft gentle boy who shouldn't be jokingly referred to as evil. then they'd go "i can't help my active and conscious decision to type a bunch of rude fucking words and then my active and conscious decision to send those rude fucking words because i'm autistic :(((" around the fourth or fifth time this happened, i was fucking done with that nonsense and finally blocked them. shoulda done it after the first comment tbh!! no more autism exceptions.

as for the rest of it, my main management strategy is to simply.... preempt the bad faith comments?

i had a LOT more unpleasant and conflict-filled fandom experiences when i was in the raven cycle fandom. that was my first exposure to "you can't ship multi-gender polycules if anyone involved is gay" and "queerplatonic het relationships are just heteronormativity shipping that you're trying to get away with." having dealt with those takes before, i've found a few different ways to disarm bad faith readers before they get started.

first is to be super open and honest about my interests. i talk about what i find compelling in different relationships All The Damn Time. it's really hard for anyone to accuse me of only wanting hunter to fuck amity if they've seen, like.... anything i've said about hunter and amity.

same with hunter and luz. the only negative reactions i've really gotten to how they're written in the princess AU is like.... two people being squicked by camila thinking they're romantically involved. i REALLY expected more pushback on the touchyfeely bed sharing stuff, but from what i remember, there's never been Any....? not even from people who consider them siblings.

i expected a lot of pushback on how mean hunter and amity are to each other, since it's taken So much farther than the canon. but it turns out that there's a very large overlap between people who like dark horror AUs and people who like hunter and amity murdering each other. (in a fluffy fic i don't think this characterization would fly Nearly as easily.)

i find that being funny really disarms people, too. when you look at any of my toh meta posts that could be controversial, they're basically all funny. people are a lot more willing to listen to what you have to say if you make them laugh, and it's harder for them to get angry at you.

and then the last thing is that i think i'm in sort of a privileged position in toh fandom. i've written a lot of controversial subjects and relationships and characterizations.... but i've also written some WILDLY popular mainstream fic. and people who like the mainstream fic don't really want to beef with me about differing niche opinions, bc there's a level of respect there. which they might not have for a writer they don't like.

but anyway. when things Do happen, i almost always just block and move on. there are so many people here who get what i'm talking about that there's no need for me to try to convert people who don't, you know??

#also the 'making a character of color an empress is problematic' thing made me laugh aloud #as for THAT... i don't think i've ever been accused of racism in how i write luz (or camila or raine or darius or hennessy for that matter)#i'm obviously imperfect and have blind spots as a white writer. but i also like to think i do my due diligence #at the Very Least i have Black and latine friends willing to sensitivity read for me & i've gone to native spanish speakers for camila's #dialogue. etc. if anyone has a take that's THAT bad faith about how i write women of color i'm just gonna uh.....#assume that what they really mean is that they want me to write white boys exclusively.#and well. i will not be doing that!#replies #toh #princess luz au #long post #if there are typos in this i apologize. i was out again all day and i am Le Tired

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hchollym · 1 year

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Percy Weasley & Sansa Stark Parallels

This post is going to be more for me than anything else, because I doubt many people are interested in this very specific topic, but I couldn't resist.

Percy & Sansa are two of my favorite characters in literature, and the more I started to think about it, the more I realized how much they have in common. I know that sounds strange, and don't get me wrong, there are some key differences (Sansa was definitely more of an innocent victim - the poor girl was only 11 years old), but they do actually have a lot of similarities as well!

I'm going to link some posts/metas about Percy, just in case someone wants to see extra support for my claims, because I feel like Sansa is a little bit more obvious/self-explanatory in canon.

Basics

They are both tall redheads (which doesn't mean anything, but it is a fun coincidence). 🙂

They are both unfairly hated by fandom because of the POV trap (Harry & Arya).

Personality

They are both feminine (see this post about Percy).

They both love reading, and neither of them are very athletic.

They were both naïve and trusted the wrong people because they didn't know any better. Unfortunately, they were both raised by their fathers to trust in something that wasn't trustworthy (the Ministry of Magic - see this post about Percy - & the idea that most men/knights are honorable).

They are both romantic in nature (Percy writing love letters & Sansa reading love stories). Interestingly enough, both of them are the first siblings in their families to be given a storyline that involves a romantic relationship/betrothal & yet both of their oldest brothers end up getting married first (which is not a bad thing; it's just an observation).

Family/Background

They were both the "perfect" child who had high expectations placed on them from a young age ("Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please."), yet they were also ignored the most because they were "easy" compared to their siblings (see this post on Percy's relationship with his mother).

This is why their acts of "rebellion" (Percy disowning his family & Sansa going to Cersei) were so unexpected. They were always so well-behaved until they finally felt pushed over the edge:

“What do we want to be prefects for?” said George, looking revolted at the very idea. “It’d take all the fun out of life.” Ginny giggled. “You want to set a better example for your sister!” snapped Mrs. Weasley. “Ginny’s got other brothers to set her an example, Mother,” said Percy loftily.

suddenly changing to:

“He went completely berserk. He said — well, he said loads of terrible stuff... And he packed his bags the same night and left. He’s living here in London now.”

"It was for love," Sansa said in a rush. "Father wouldn't even give me leave to say farewell." She was the good girl, the obedient girl, but she had felt as wicked as Arya that morning, sneaking away from Septa Mordane, defying her lord father..."

They were both usually the odd one out with their siblings, who all had a closer bond with each other than with Percy/Sansa. Their siblings also looked down on their interests because they couldn't relate to them:

“We’re trying to standardize cauldron thickness. Some of these foreign imports are just a shade too thin — leakages have been increasing at a rate of almost three percent a year —” “That’ll change the world, that report will,” said Ron. “Front page of the Daily Prophet, I expect, cauldron leaks.” Percy went slightly pink.

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.

They were also the target of their siblings' pranks/mischief:

“I shudder to think what the state of my in-tray would be if I was away from work for five days.” “Yeah, someone might slip dragon dung in it again, eh, Perce?” said Fred. “That was a sample of fertilizer from Norway!” said Percy, going very red in the face. “It was nothing personal!” “It was,” Fred whispered to Harry as they got up from the table. “We sent it.”

"Arya started it," Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. "She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey."

They were both resented by their younger sibling(s), who each happen to be about 2 years younger than them (Fred and George & Arya):

"...we never had trouble like this from Bill or Charlie or Percy —” “Perfect Percy,” muttered Fred.

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily, Arya thought with dull resentment.

Ironically enough, their parents usually let those siblings get away with a lot more than Percy or Sansa would have been allowed to get away with (see this post on Molly & Arthur's lack of discipline with the twins):

None of which stopped Arya, of course. One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. That just made her worse.

Circumstances/Storylines

Their fathers failed them (though not on purpose) when they needed them most (Arthur yelled at Percy and accused him of spying instead of calmly helping Percy see that he was being used & Ned refused to explain why Sansa's betrothal was being called off). This directly led to their acts of rebellion.

As a result, they were both taken advantage of by people in power (Fudge & Cersei) and separated from their family. Initially, this is what they both thought they wanted (Percy chose to leave & Sansa wanted to remain in King's Landing with Joffrey instead of returning home), but they both ended up regretting it (after losing their innocence and naivety) and wanting their family back.

They were both young, and yet they were judged for not knowing something that even the adults didn't know (Percy didn't notice that his boss, Barty Sr., who he barely knew, was under the Imperious Curse, while Dumbledore failed to notice that his old friend was actually a Death Eater using a Polyjuice potion & Sansa thought that she could trust Cersei while Ned believed that he could trust Cersei enough to warn her to leave town without her retaliating against him).

While they were separated/alone, their mothers were really the only ones doing anything to try and get them back (Molly visited Percy & Catelyn freed Jaime).

They both had to play their part in politics under a corrupt government. They both originally wanted to be a part of that system (eventually becoming the Minister of Magic & eventually becoming the queen). They ended up realizing that the people in charge were not as noble and well-intentioned as they thought.

They learned to be more careful about who they trusted, and they adapted to survive (Percy in a Ministry controlled by Voldemort & Sansa with the threat of Cersei, Jeffrey, and Littlefinger).

They both lost a brother. 😭

He and Ron had both grabbed Hermione and pulled her to the floor, but Percy lay across Fred’s body, shielding it from further harm.

Robb had died at a wedding feast as well. It was Robb she wept for.

They both reconnected/made amends with the sibling(s) that initially resented them (Sansa and Arya will meet again and work things out in the books - fight me):

“I was a fool!” Percy roared, so loudly that Lupin nearly dropped his photograph. “I was an idiot, I was a pompous prat, I was a— a— ” “Ministry-loving, family-disowning, power-hungry moron.” said Fred. Percy swallowed. “Yes, I was!” “Well, you can’t say fairer that that,” said Fred, holding out his hand to Percy.

In Conclusion

I just found it interesting that two of my favorite characters - who seem very different - have so much in common. I'm sure that says something about me! 🤣😊

#percy weasley #sansa stark #percy & sansa #percy weasley defense squad #sansa stark defence squad #character parallels #hp #asoiaf #weasley family critical #anti arthur weasley #ned stark critical #those tags are just to be safe #my thoughts #my opinion #my headcanons

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charcubed · 2 years

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A lot of people refer to Cas as "gay," which I think is awesome and everything. But I personally always considered him more as "queer" for a number of reasons, such as:

angel genders and vessels are very fluid. Would he still be considered "gay" if he were in a female vessel, and in love with Dean? Also, there are several times in the series where Cas appears to be attracted to women (some ppl don't consider these moments valid for Reasons™ which is fine. But I do.) He also seems, in my opinion, to only be romantically interested in Dean, and I think this would be true if Dean were female. So that would make Cas closer to demi.

Point is, I recently saw a post on sm that was like "reminder: Cas is GAY. He's not bi, pan, or unlabeled, he's gay and that's not negotiable."

I consider myself queer and a huge Cas fan, so it was weird to see my interpretation of a character I know really well and relate to just be invalidated like that.

And I just kind of wanted you opinion, cuz I know like in Dean's case, seeing him as anything other than bi is pretty clearly against canon.

But is the same true for Cas? Is it wrong to see him as an umbrella "queer?" I know Misha calls him gay, which I love and respect, but I don't really let my interpretations be dictated by actor opinions. I feel like canon supports a much more fluid interpretation of Cas, but I'm just wondering if I'm wrong for that, in terms of what canon supports.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Thanks for your thoughts in this fandom I love them

Hi!! Thank you for the nice words and for wanting to know my thoughts on this. I appreciate you :)

Sorry it took me over a week to finish this. I kind of started it, realized it was probably gonna be longer than I’d expected, and then added to it in pieces when off work so as not to half-ass it.

Also, I want you to know that I think you absolutely rock for this message. The fact that you have a strong personal interpretation or strong feelings about what your view of Cas' sexuality means to you, while being open to hearing arguments for what canon supports, is exactly the kind of nuance too many people in fandom lack. Huge fuckin shout out to you, anon, because this takes both guts and brain cells!

I have two primary threads of thought I'm going to address here, as well as how they criss-cross:

I agree that Cas' canon sexuality is a slightly different topic than Dean's canon sexuality. Dean's bisexuality is not unclear/unambiguous, and there's no wiggle room there; he's frequently attracted to women, he's frequently attracted to men, there's bi lighting, it's all not rocket science. Cas is a bit more ~ambiguously queer~, so advocating for fandom maintaining a unanimous hard stance on his canon sexuality is... a little trickier. In that vein, the "reminder" post you mentioned seeing feels too intense in my opinion for the nature of this particular conversation/topic.

That being said: from an analytical standpoint, I do think the strongest argument to be made based on canon is that Cas is gay and demi.

Since you seem open to it and asked for my thoughts overall, I'm gonna break down point 2 before circling back to point 1. Quick reminder/disclaimer that I'm not trying to invalidate you or your personal connection to Cas with anything I'm about to say, so please keep that in mind <3

You mentioned how some people don't consider Cas' moments of being attracted to women as ~being valid~ and said you disagree. That's fair! At the same time... in a nuanced fashion, that's where I land on it. I also think the show took care to ultimately build to and portray a full picture with all of that factored in, and to talk about that I kinda gotta go into detail here, because it's one part of a bigger piece. I’m not trying to turn this into a comprehensive meta deep dive, so I’m going to talk about this in a sort of summarized way but not go too far into breaking down any one point or analyzing any one scene. Hope that’s cool.

Let’s look at Cas’ biggest “moments,” as it were, with women. Or the ones I would guess people intend to reference.

First up: there’s Meg. We’ve got the “pizza man" season 6 kiss, the season 7 arc of Meg watching over Cas during his mental break, and season 8 when Meg sacrifices herself.

The season 6 "pizza man" kiss, to me, really plays into the overall mood of Cas' curiosity as he explores and tries to understand human behavior. He watched porn and was intrigued/confused/aroused, Meg kissed him partially to get at his angel blade (not a euphemism lmao), and then his curiosity kicked in so he kissed her more thoroughly because the opportunity was there. Those scenes are all connected, and he doesn’t have much of a reaction after the kiss. Then, season 7 is a whole suitcase to unpack, but… the bottom line there is that Meg treated Cas with decency when he was vulnerable in every sense of the word. And then in season 8, Cas undeniably had a fondness for Meg by the end, and they were friends... but I don't read it as him having an attraction to her or romantic feelings for her. I do not mean this as shade or hate to anyone who ships them, but my reading on that dynamic overall is that I do think Meg felt something for Cas in terms of both attraction and feelings; and while that makes it all a bittersweet tragedy, it also doesn't mean things were reciprocally non-platonic. She was into him, but he seemingly wasn’t into her in the same way. After Meg’s death, Cas also never asks about her or mentions her or has any reaction at all to her being gone–something that would have been very easy for them to incorporate with even one mention if they'd wanted to or considered it foundational. (For example, mentions of Dean's relationship with Benny are recurring throughout the show, lending its non-platonic nature and its significance for establishing bi Dean even more weight.) Season 8 Megstiel content is also placed narratively right up against the Destiel content, and the contrast of that is–of course–pretty stark. That was likely deliberate. Cas’ feelings for Dean are unavoidably, unmistakably at the forefront.

Then you've got season 9. A newly human Cas–who was given the heteronormative suggestion by Metatron to "Find a wife. Make babies."–gets seduced then killed by April, all of which is traumatizing dubious consent galore. Then you’ve got Cas thinking he's being asked out on a date by a woman in 9x06 as he’s trying to figure out his life as a human. He even says this explicitly to Dean: “Going on dates… that's something humans do, right?” He is doing what he thinks he’s meant to be doing as a human, but is that action based in genuine desire? That line implies the answer being no. Contextually this is, of course, set against the jilted lover vibes he has with Dean in that episode. And then in the season at large, Cas becomes focused on his overall mission–a search for purpose, which (as Metatron helpfully points out later) becomes oriented around saving Dean.

Season 10 is up next. Hannah is very clearly interested in Cas, but Cas is a giant question mark in the face of all of her interest pretty consistently. In all honesty, the way Hannah comes onto Cas—the construction of the scenes—feels like it was intended to show that Cas isn’t interested in women. Half the time he doesn’t clock her vibes, and the other half the time he awkwardly avoids acknowledging it. This culminates in her standing in front of him naked in the clearest signal she can give… and as he says, he’s ~not bothered~ by it. He’s just... well, he's gay. Lmfao. And speaking of the naked Hannah scene in 10x07, something I personally find highly amusing is that that naked scene is immediately followed by Dean enthusiastically making out with a woman. It’s a smash cut with a very pointed contrast, in my opinion! I was very struck by it.

So that's my mini tour (with imperfect recall) of Cas' Moments With Women in the story and how I feel they're positioned.

And to touch upon the idea of contrast a bit further… With Dean, there are ample moments and instances where he canonically expresses (joyful or uncomplicated) sexual attraction to women, and/or romantic love for women throughout the show. This is why his canonical attraction to women should never be in question, as part of his bisexuality. But with Cas... I don’t personally feel we have a scene of his where we can unequivocally say the same. There are always story elements at play that indicate complex motivation, or when a woman (or woman-shaped being? lol) may be interested in him there doesn’t seem to be genuine reciprocal interest on his part. The absence of a clear scene establishing he’s unequivocally attracted to women doesn’t mean he couldn’t hypothetically be… but there are no significant moments that convince me that that’s the case in canon. Instead, I think the picture these layered moments paint of Cas and his sexuality is solidified as the story progress–as part of how his sense of self solidifies and emerges story-wide in kind. By that I mean: the shades of how he reacts to Hannah are there in his reactions to Meg’s interest years prior, but in season 10 they feel more clear because by that point he understands himself better (especially after his time as a human) and has formulated his identity as a person more than he had, for example, in season 6.

The secondary part of this though is the queercoding attached to Cas–which is, by and large, gay coding. (There is also more contrast here in comparison to Dean's bi coding in that regard.) By “gay” coding, I mean… Dean describes Cas as having "sensible shoes,” which is gay slang/code, though more commonly used in reference to lesbians. Cas uses female pop artists for his aliases, which is a wink/nod to stereotypes of gay men—a pattern that’s established in later seasons concurrently to the Destiel narrative taking even deeper root. The specific micro-agressions (and outright aggressions) Cas is subjected to by others—as he's clocked as being an outsider who doesn't fit and for being in love with Dean, in ways that are often tangled together—are traditionally gay story devices at play. And I'm also fond of the seeming significance of Cas' conversation with Pastor Joe in 15x15. Cas asks the Pastor what he means by people of "all backgrounds," being welcomed, and the Pastor says, "Connor didn't have to live in fear of who he was. A gay man who believed in a tolerant God." And Cas says, "Well, I imagine not everyone was happy with the change."

In terms of why I say he’s also demi… Cas is seemingly never ~interested~ in anyone but Dean. Now, part of that is of course a byproduct of the storytelling structures he's given. But nonetheless, his singleminded focus on / interest in / devotion to Dean feels unwavering in its totality. Even as Dean stops looking to date other people in later seasons because he knows he’s fallen in love with Cas, there’s still references to or nods to his attraction to men and women as a significant part of who he is. But unless I’m forgetting things, Cas just… doesn’t really seem to have that embedded into his character. He's got an emotional attachment to (and "profound bond" with) Dean, and his attraction to and love for Dean is part of its natural extension. That’s where the demi reading comes in for me, but it’s certainly a side note / asterisk to him being gay, which I think is the prime part of his identity the text deliberately points towards overall.

Regarding Cas' gender and how that may affect any part of this discussion... Is Cas non-binary? Well, in the show overall, angels are obviously considered ~celestial wavelengths of intent~. We see the fluidity of angels in different gendered vessels, and one could say the angels' primary gender is sort of "genderless" as default. Sure. But... at minimum, I feel it's implied that Cas comes to feel at home in a male vessel's body, and in what has legitimately become his body. As Dean says, "It's not an 'it,' Sam. It's Cas." And ultimately, I feel the gender question is not really a huge part of the point in regards to how canon presents this queer story to us.

To the question of if Cas would still be "gay" if he was in a female vessel and fell in love with Dean–or even to a question of "what if Dean was a woman" I've seen plenty of other people pose in various contexts–I think it's almost like... a moot point. The homoeroticism of Dean and Cas' dynamic is significant in a multilayered way, and that was true from day one. Their dynamic is very much affected by and built on them being 2 masculine men (or Cas being perceived as a "man" if you want to go that route), both in story and out of it, particularly in Dean's reactions to Cas. And the romance, tension, push-and-pull, miscommunication, coding, and censorship–the latter being a thing that shaped story choices over the years–all exist in a specific way because their relationship is undeniably, visibly queer. Destiel as we know it could not and would not be the same if one of them was in a perceived woman's body. Their interactions would have been vastly different, and thus in my head it's impossible to conceptualize.

Supernatural is also very much a story about the deconstruction of toxic masculinity while maintaining masculinity through a queer lens. This is its own separate topic that I actually have been wanting to make a post about for awhile now (in part because over-feminization of their characters in fandom, especially in ways that lead to apply ill-fitting repression narratives to Dean's canon, can miss several points about this). Those masculinity themes are so centralized because of Dean and Cas' romance and the fact that they are two men. There is significance there, both historically and culturally.

So while maybe Cas would or could identify as non-binary... It doesn't seem like a viewpoint he is particularly aligned with, and it also doesn't feel like a significant element at play in this queer love story. That makes me tip towards saying it's not a huge factor in discussions of exact readings or terminology for Cas' canonical sexuality/identity.

As a side note: to a certain extent, I also find it interesting to contemplate how some of their miscommunication in-narrative maybe extends into the idea that Dean is attracted to women and Cas seems not to be. More than once, Dean tries to bond with Cas through ~typical male~ interests, such as when he takes him to a strip club. Dean being bi doesn't mean he avoids having heteronormativity on the brain lol, and that sort of thing in his experience is usually quick-and-easy guy bonding time, especially in hunting culture. But while Cas learns how to be human in a metaphorical sense from the Winchesters' examples in several ways (both the good and the bad habits/lessons), something he can't/doesn't pick up is attraction to women or how to act on or express that sort of attraction, because it just doesn't seem innate to him. So while Dean and Cas are certainly both queer, to me they exhibit different forms of queer experiences (bi and gay) in characteristics and in story and in coding that add a layer to their dynamic. It's a little bit of a difference between them that they maybe don't know how to awkwardly address with each other, because they often don't fucking communicate, and I can see it contributing to Dean wondering if / how much Cas has capacity to "feel that way"... making him think Cas maybe doesn't reciprocate his desire. Because they're both stupid.

Anyway! Anyway.

Back to the main points:

Let me summarize.

I personally don't think Cas is attracted to women, and that the story points to him going through a journey of learning that about himself as he grows into himself over time. The queercoding in connection to him, such as it is, also rings of being gay coding. Considering we see him primarily or solely so strongly interested in Dean, an argument/hypothesis for him being demi doesn't feel off the mark. And I don't think the question of angelic gender is super relevant to what canon points to in this discussion for Cas specifically, because I do think the m/m nature of Destiel is relevant to their story and dynamic with each other, and by later seasons at minimum Cas is seemingly comfortably "a man" (perhaps even more so than an ambiguously gendered Being).

Is there a stronger or more persuasive argument to be made about the specifics of Cas' sexuality in canon? I'd be open to hearing it, of course, but I just kind of doubt any other argument would be convincing enough to change my mind when factoring in all of the story elements at play.

However. All of this being said:

I would certainly not call an umbrella use of the word "queer" wrong for Cas. I think it is, in fact, very applicable! For one thing, the word "queer" in this instance effectively encompasses a combined gay and demi reading, as an example. For another thing, it's an understandable hat tip that simplifies his various complexities as an angel. It works.

I'm also not die-on-this-hill militant about the use of the word "gay" for Cas because I'm cognizant of how things are not 100% clearcut with him. I do not say this to negate my own analysis, but rather because I can acknowledge the truth of this particular situation. While I do think the above full picture kind of adds up to him being specifically gay, this is an instance where there is room for nuance within it and giving grace to–dare I say it–"interpretations." I personally don't really agree with or particularly feel comfortable considering him bi or pan specifically, given all the factors at play; but it doesn't overtly upset me that others do. For example, he did indeed have sex with April as a human, and I find I can't get mad at people who choose to take his interest in that moment 100% at face value, especially considering the fact that what I view to be his overall "gay arc" certainly has subtlety and room for subjectivity in it.

In conclusion,

I don't know if this post answers all your questions, anon. I don't know if it will help you or make you feel bad for some reason, though I certainly hope it's the former rather than the later! And I apologize for the length, but you touched on a lot of different branches in your message, and I'm nothing if not someone who maps out a whole fucking tree when asked to lmfaaaoooo.

Thank you for your patience as this post took me WAY too long to complete smh. Like what the hell, truly. You're a star, I love ya, and for what little it's worth I do infer that lots of people in fandom (perhaps even Misha) use "gay" as an umbrella word in reference to Cas. (I am sympathetic to your plight if that makes you feel weird though; it's not the same situation by any means, but I will share that I'm suspicious of people who call Dean "gay" even flippantly at this point, because nowadays I don't trust that shit lmao)

Send me thoughts and prayers because the "e" key on my laptop's keyboard has started periodically sticking and it's been driving me insane while working on writing this.

#castiel #supernatural #castiel meta #gay cas #?¿?#this is long enough it warrants tags. fuck it #anonymous #asks #char writes things #spn meta #destiel

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thyandrawrites · 1 year

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Blog update

Hi, everyone! I hope the holidays are treating you well. I'm doing okay.

For those of you that missed my announcement, or didn't see my previous pinned post, I wanted to quickly clarify what's going on. You might have noticed that I didn't answer your ask. I'm sorry about that.

I'm stepping down from writing meta and sharing my thoughts on recent manga events, on the fandom, on expectations/predictions for the series, and on any hot topic being discussed by other meta bloggers and doing the rounds in the villain standom. Basically, don't expect me to engage with much meta anymore. I'm taking a break for an indefinite amount of time because I find this fandom too hostile currently; since my anxiety is triggered by any tension, be it real or the product of my brain contemplating a fear and running with it, I have to disengage and just focus on myself. I hope you'll understand.

What does this mean for this blog?

Meta and asks are normally a huge portion of the contents of this blog. Most of you probably followed me for those. And let's be real, meta is my passion so it will likely resume at some point. Idk when that will be, tho. Maybe I'll wake up next week and be relaxed or uncaring enough to brave the thought of diving back into the disk horse pool, maybe it will be in a couple of months, maybe I will switch to another fandom entirely. I don't know yet.

In the meantime, please know that I will most likely not respond to anything meta-related or any ask that expresses frustration, negativity, disappointment or anything in that vein, be it a comment on the series or a request to comment on the takes floating around the fandom.

You're still welcome to drop by my askbox with anything else if you feel like it. I'm keeping it open because I do like chatting to people, and I'm too socially awkward for dms. I'm just trying to limit my chances of ending up being the target of someone writing an essay about why Take X or Y is wrong. There's been a lot of those lately, and they stress the fuck out of me.

That being said, you're also free to unfollow me if you don't have fun here anymore. I don't mind.

Oh, please also refrain from answering this announcement by showering me with support and positivity! While I do wholeheartedly appreciate the sentiment and feel very thankful for your kindness(💙), I don't really know how to answer it. Again, socially awkward! Just to put you at ease, I am aware that for every hostile take there's dozens of people who genuinely enjoy hearing my thoughts and talking to me. I do! I'm not looking for reassurance, I'm just trying to draw a boundary. Writing meta is my passion, and I normally have fun with it, but as of now it's not that fun anymore. That's all. I am taking care of myself and spending more of my time on my fics instead.

Thank you all so much in advance for your understanding, and I hope you have a nice day/night! Take care 💕

#Thyandra.txt

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lorei-writes · 11 months

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Recently I've been feeling things that refused to be put into words. I don't think I can do that now, to be honest. Anything that comes to my mind is both too big and too small all at once. But then there's only trial and error. So let's try.

The topic: this place.

Now, this isn't any announcement. It's nothing particularly dramatic either. My assumption is that this will not be of interest to anybody. I suppose the only reason why I write this is that... I have always done that and, on the off-chance of there being one person who would be curious to listen, it is only fair. Perhaps it is just my hoping that there is such a person. I don't know. I don't think I can know now.

For starters, it is very hard to describe precisely what I experience without hiding behind words. Without telling things as I wish they could be told -- but then, then that would be false.

One of the recent feelings was that this place is, well, somewhere between states. That it used to be one thing, that things changed, and that now the overarching assumption is that I am going somewhere else and abandoning what was.

*sigh* And that's the part that I don't understand. Things have always been changing... And I'm conflicted, because I'm trying to find a way to navigate it all.

For one thing, it is wonderful to feel a surge of joy. I'm so happy to have found a new little interest to pursue. I'm happy to be able to take things, to create with them, to explore new possibilities... But at the same time, it doesn't mean that I'm moving away from the quiet familiar joys I once had. Surely, the ratio of them may change... But it isn't my intention to step away from them. If anything, I want to find a way to have both the old and the new. I don't want to choose when I don't even see it as a choice.

But, I don't know how to accomplish that. I don't know what sets of rules to impose and I presume simplifying them will be an ordeal in and of itself... And what is worse, I expect that the more things I like, the harder this will get.

This ties with another feeling I have. It... Well. There was a time I thought I'd be happy if I had more -- more recognition, more appreciation, more friends. Now I realise I'm at the receiving end of overwhelming amounts of kindness. I think I get more than my far share of appreciation, and I'm fairly certain most people I know in real life have not been given nearly as much. I'm beyond grateful, but here... Here again is where I lose my balance.

I write plenty. I do art. I make edits. I crack jokes. I ramble about meta. All are the means of sharing joy to me. The happier I am, the more passionate I am, the more of those I do. I know I can go on, and on, and on, and that I may be rather tireless at times.

I wouldn't call myself a popular writer. I don't think most people would realise if I disappeared one day... And in a way, I am thankful for that. Because, due to the sheer volume of my joy, I am swept away and overwhelmed by your kindness.

The key word is overwhelmed.

But how could I not want it? How could I not appreciate it? I love hearing from you guys. I love it when we talk. I love it when we are silly together, when we throw headcanons around, when we theorise or build each other up. It's precious. It's great. I don't want you to stop. I wish I could talk with more of you... But it also is so, so, so much. I don't want to grow indifferent to any of that, even if my -- or well, the human -- brain was not meant to handle such amounts of gratification.

But how do I balance it? What do I change to stay true to myself?

I need to figure that out. I want to believe that there is some sweet spot where I can share my joy while also remaining as I am... But I may need some time. Truth be told, getting more than 50 interactions per day is plenty, and the last month we never dropped below that. Not once.

*sigh, again* A part of me misses the time when there was just a couple of people here, partially because nothing felt as serious then. I love it when I'm talked to like just to any other person. I dislike any artificial distance being put in place -- and this is why we don't celebrate follower milestones. I appreciate you. I just noticed that the last time we did celebrate... assumptions were made. Lenses of superficial metrics be damned.

But, again, as much as I'm overwhelmed with kindness I receive, I do not want for any person to go. I do not want to be left alone. I do not want to push people away, even if it is just one me and plenty others.

There must be some way... And it is so terribly greedy of me, but I want to find it. I want to crack this puzzle... Even if nobody was to care about it ever being a puzzle in my head.

#personal #lorei spoke #update

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fastcardotmp3 · 1 year

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twirling my hair around my finger, heyyyyyy. so how can i bribe you into sharing all the thought and comments you say you have about meta?

i don't really have any specific questions because ideally i'd want to open up your brain like a book and browse through absolutely everything, so i'm not sure where i should 'aim' so to speak?

is there smg in particular you'd like to share about? an area you want to expand on, because there's more than that's on the page that you'd like to explicitly discuss or just because it's your favorite to talk about?

i'm chin hands, and would be thrilled at every crumb you felt like sending our way queen

oh my GOD the can of worms here you don't know what you're doing I want to talk about METAMORPHOSES all the time always 😭

it's the fic I'm proudest for having said exactly what I wanted it to say without going on tangents the way my other longfic did and it's the fic I'm proudest for having completed both at all and the way I did narratively and I just!!

thanks for humoring me I know my rambling about this fic can get longwinded and annoying but it means the world to get to ramble at all tbh I am also twirling my hair kicking my feet etc super grateful for you, anon 💚💚💚

I've been sitting with this ask all day thinking about what little thing I could go on a self-indulgence about, but instead I just keep adding to the list of topics and giving you nothing so! if you would be so patient as to indulge me, a list in no particular order of things I worked hard on in the writing of that story:

(under the cut because, surprise surprise, I got longwinded again)

a motorcycle as a symbol of independence, meaning it's the thing that carries him to acts of joy but also acts of self-destruction, but also ultimately being something he gets to keep in the long run because relearning he does not have to earn independence and freedom by being good is kind of his whole deal during his healing process. he's human and he's allowed to fuck up and that doesn't mean he gets stripped of the right to potentially fuck up again in the future!

ourboros and cycles and the destruction/recreation-isms of recovery in the way Eddie has to rebuild all but from scratch post-Kas, and that when he relapses and falters the cycle starts over, only this time "from scratch" has a slightly stronger foundation

El. Just El in general and the reasons what she does in this fic is the most in-character thing I've ever written for her I LOVE HER SO MUCH AND I LOVED WRITING HER IN THIS FIC

the collective theme of our young adults as people who don't "turn out" the way they're expected to, who end up following paths that make sense entirely even if they don't look like they do on the surface, particularly for both Steve and Nancy who shirk careers that everyone on the outside perceives as being perfect for them in favor of ones that feel right, even accomplish the same things but in a way that's more natural to them (and also the way this aligns with Eddie's own journey of not being what he looks like on the surface)

MEDUSA. just. yeah. seeing being seen the danger in both the necessity of both the difference between a gift and punishment and so on and so forth

control over one's own physical appearance as grappling with control over literally anything else for both Eddie and El, and the ways they both go from that as a desperate sort of coping mechanism to a calmer and more joyful one

honestly just the formatting of the openings to each chapter and whose voices get bolded versus italicized (specifically later on in the fic) and why because it does change and it is on purpose fjadskl

Steve's pov of when Eddie runs away!!! I almost wrote a whole chapter of this but knew it would fuck up the pacing too much so I held myself back, but I think about his utter panic all the time when he realizes that Eddie is just gone and the last thing Steve did was say something bitchy and slam the door on his way out

Nancy and Eddie's dance lessons as a goofy bit of light-heartedness but also so much more than that

AND I'M GONNA STOP SORRY BUT YOU OPENED THE FLOOD GATES AND I CARE ABOUT THIS UNIVERSE TOO MUCH HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY AND THANK YOU DEARLY FOR ASKING I OWE YOU MY LIFE 💚🐍

#dot post #ask #kindnesses #dot fic #metamorphoses fic #this fic is my babey forgive me for being so loud about it on main #anon i'm kissing you on the mouth for letting me ramble about my little universe

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seoafin · 1 year

Note

weirdly off topic (but on??? not sure)

what were your intentions/goals when making rip!mc?

and what are the differences between satosugu and rip!mc x gojo? (as ships ig)

like for me, when i think about satosugu, i always get an outer worldly, heavenly feel to it, if that makes sense? like both satoru and suguru were quite separated from everyone else (more satoru but u get it). they were soulmates, the were always linked to each other, from the beginning they complimented and contrasted each other perfectly (satoru's birth strengthening curses all over the world, suguru having to digest these curses). even their names 😭

with rip!mc x gojo, they feel so... earthly ? or more homey (i don't even know if im being coherent right now). gojo requires work to be with her, he's kind of "forced" to be a better person because of her. she also has to realize that she can be loved and she can love too!

like suguru highlights how godly satoru is (being the strongest together with him) and rip!mc highlights how human he is. she views him as he is, the same guy she met in high school. just satoru.

(this is kinda like choosing to either date the handsome god that would do absolutely anything for you or that really sweet guy next door that you have incredible chemistry with 💀)

not sure if i got this all right but im so interested in what you would have to say!

honestly i just didn't want gojo to have an easy love life. i also dialed up the pining by 1000x bc i love when strong men have pathetic love lives

i'd say you're spot on and named all the main differences yourself!! rip!mc and gojo definitely have much more of a power imbalance and uneven relationship dynamics which really shine through with gojo's whole 'i'll take care of you' spiel which i've written a whole post on somewhere. i think being with geto is so effortless because on a level they understand each other while gojo being with anyone else is going to face a bit more difficulties. it's absolutely not a new fandom interpretation by any means that gojo would be a difficult partner, i just think combined with rip!mc's denseness and own mental issues things become a bit more convoluted and harder especially when gojo has to articulate his desires in a way that he's never really had to before. he's always just pretty much gotten anything he's wanted in life and geto just always got it (tm)

when gojo's with geto i think they're both kinda stuck in this sphere of invincibility, while with rip!mc gojo's back on earth, right next to her and reminded of all his vulnerabilities. and like you've said rip!mc has never seen gojo as a god. god-like at times maybe. but to her he'll always be that guy that kept the gravure magazines she bought for him on his birthday just because she gave it to him. and the guy that jumped off one of the school buildings just to show geto he could really do it!!! and the guy that always lets her sleep on his shoulder. like. gojo was once a stupid teenager and once you see that and know it i guess it just gets really hard to reconcile that image with this all powerful god even though you know it in the back of your head. like that's just your lame friend who got drunk off a cocktail and soda and fell asleep in the wrong bed.

i personally don't like human god dynamics unless they're level, equal in some way. and it doesn't need to be strength. i can't fathom calling my significant other with honorifics or bowing to them or prostrating myself in some way. like im calling them by their first name period. im not bowing either and they shouldn't expect it!!!! it's just a personal preference though. i'm all about that give take in a relationship.

i feel like i've answered this question in more depth somewhere in my ripverse relationship meta tag so you can peruse that if you want!

#anyway. like i've said. he better WORK!#.rr

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panharmonium · 2 years

Note

I don't know if you've ever talked about this, but what would have been your ideal resolution to Kakashi and Sasuke's relationship in canon? What would you have wanted their post-canon life to look like? (I love love love your meta btw!)

Hi, and thank you! You’re right; I haven’t talked about this, and the reason for that is because I’m in the planning stages of a project related to this topic, and for me, sharing all my thoughts before I start the nitty-gritty work of making something is basically the kiss of death for the creative process. I have to keep quiet about stuff I’m working on, or it does weird things to my productivity. X)

So, while I do have very clear ideas about what the most natural progression for their relationship would be and what their post-canon life would look like, I’m not going to answer this with specifics for now. I am, however, in a general sense, going to say this:

Naruto canon basically stops for me at the beginning of 479 (and if you’re interested in a longer explanation for that, I wrote up some thoughts in this old post). Kakashi and Sasuke’s relationship is just one of many things that the conclusion failed to deliver on, and it’s not even the most important one - I would have been totally fine if the story had ended pre-timeskip and left us with just a tiny indication of a future resolution for them, whereas things like the Uchiha massacre/government cover-up never being mentioned again make me want to scream (I still can’t believe it...never before have I seen a more dramatic departure from a story’s original intent/previously established themes; never before has a more egregious crime against storytelling been committed) - the finale abandoned most of what it had spent the last 700 chapters telling us to wait for, and even though Kakashi and Sasuke’s relationship matters so much to me, it’s not remotely close to the sole or most significant place where the conclusion fell down.

But since we’re talking about these two specifically here - let’s put the other stuff aside. When it comes to Kakashi and Sasuke, it is completely laughable that this story expects me to buy a conclusion where their relationship isn’t important, the same way it would be laughable for it to expect me to buy a conclusion where Sasuke’s relationship with Sakura or Naruto didn’t matter. Kakashi is explicitly set up by the story as a parallel/precursor to Sasuke, the same way Obito is set up as a parallel/precursor to Naruto, and while this doesn’t mean that Kakashi and Sasuke are the exact same person or have equivalent personalities, it does mean that Kakashi can understand certain things about Sasuke that other people can’t necessarily relate to quite so easily.

It’s not just about losing family at a young age (plenty of people in the Leaf can understand that, unfortunately). It’s the particular experience of discovering your parent/parents’ dead bodies in your own home. It’s the betrayal/confusion/pain of your family being taken from you not by war or accident or illness, but by the person you most loved and trusted. It’s the subsequent self-isolation and cutting yourself off from other relationships, throwing yourself into your training and concealing your pain behind the ‘i’m wildly advanced for my age treat me like an adult’ facade. It’s looking down on your teammates as “less than” and acting like you don’t need them for anything (“you thought the others were so far beneath you that they were worthless....arrogance”). It’s being dragged inch by inch out of your isolation armor by friends who admire you and care about you despite your efforts to push them away.

It’s about Kakashi’s unique ties to the Uchiha clan, and specifically to Itachi. It’s about Sasuke and Kakashi being the last bearers of the sharingan, and both of them being targeted for it (by Danzo, to boot, if you like the anime ANBU arc, but the sharingan still matters even just considering the manga). It’s about Kakashi’s father being persecuted into a premature grave by the traditional shinobi system, for the crime of defying the traditional shinobi system, the same system that said it was acceptable for the Uchiha clan to be sacrificed in order to accomplish the “mission” of protecting Konoha. It’s about Kakashi and Sasuke being the children of so-called traitors (aka people who bucked the system and were mercilessly punished for it) and about the complicated social position they’re thus forced to occupy, as people who are deeply proud of where they come from even though they themselves sometimes have conflicted feelings about what their families did to them.

It’s about Kakashi spending his post-Kannabi life trying to reconcile a desire to protect his home and his community with the knowledge that his home and his community did irrevocable harm to his family, the same way a post-canon Sasuke will have to wrestle with these same questions. It’s about both of them being used as a weapon to kill the person they cared about most, BY the person they cared about most. It’s about both of them being willed new eyes by people who were the foundations for their entire existences/philosophies/personal missions for years and years, about whom they now have confusing and complicated feelings, because Obito and Itachi did unspeakable things, but Kakashi and Sasuke love them even when they can’t excuse them, and how do you figure out how to feel about someone who cared about you that much but also hurt you that badly, someone who’s a reviled figure to the rest of the world and whom you aren’t completely sure you’ve fully forgiven, or that it’s even okay for you to forgive?

It’s about post-canon Sasuke choosing to always keep his left eye covered, an eye he can’t deactivate or otherwise conceal, an eye that makes him (in)famous, an eye that makes him a target to enemies and a danger to the people around him - an eye that comes with baggage, that reminds him of a period in his life that he considers shameful, of a moment where he was lost.

The idea that Sasuke would ever come home to a scenario where Kakashi was not a significant figure in his return/recovery is not remotely believable, particularly when you consider that while all three of Team 7′s kids trained with a member of the Sannin, Naruto and Sakura are the only ones who had actual mentors. Jiraiya and Tsunade both took on pupils who were reflections of themselves, passing on to them their personal powers and techniques (toad and slug summons, Sage Mode, the Hundred Healings, etc), because they truly believed in their students and cared about their development. Orochimaru, by contrast, was using Sasuke for his own twisted purposes - he was the witch from Hansel and Gretel, fattening up a child until it could be devoured. Sasuke was nothing more than a future skinsuit to him, not a student, and there was never any loyalty or respect felt on either side of that mentorship, just a cold craving for the power that each party could obtain by using the other.

In a universe where the master/student relationship is such a fundamental social structure, canon-period Sasuke is totally adrift, unanchored in an aberrant and uncomfortable limbo, because Orochimaru was never supposed to be his teacher. Kakashi was.

I think that’s probably the most fundamental principle I apply to Kakashi and Sasuke’s relationship, no matter what era we’re looking at. Kakashi is sensei to all the kids, in very meaningful ways, but when it comes to the master-student apprenticeships, the truth is that where Naruto had Jiraiya, and Sakura has Tsunade, Sasuke has - was always supposed to have - Kakashi. The natural progression of their relationship was interrupted the day the Sound Four showed up in Konoha, and it’s been on hold ever since, but the war is over now, even if the work isn’t. Things are going to change for them, inch by painstakingly-fought-for inch.

#thank you so much for sending this ask to me #(even though i know i didn't answer it with the kind of specifics you were looking for; i'm so sorry!)#every day all i want to do is talk about kakashi and sasuke #or reblog stuff about them #but i end up just pacing back and forth within the confines of my own blog #because my brief foray into the wider naruto fandom after finishing the show #did not seem to indicate that many other people received this story the same way i did #and there's very little fan content out there about this relationship that doesn't make me want to bang my head against a wall #but anyway #the point is i think about them Every Single Day #so i really appreciate this ask #THANK YOU #<333 #naruto #replies #meta #he's like me

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agusqueen4 · 6 months

Text

What could have been.

Warning

I want to clarify that this does not belong to me, I did not write it. But I wanted to share it with you, but the image looked terrible when I tried to upload it so I decided to transcribe it for you. Above is the link to see the image.

-You are on this council… But we do not grant you the rank of master- declared Master Windu

-… What?- Anakin exclaimed confused. Windu, Obi-wan and Yoda then expected a negative reaction from the Jedi Knight -No, I mean, what did you say? My hearing has been off ever since Master Kenobi and i rescued the Chancellor-

-He's right- Kenobi stated -As it turns out, crashing a capital ship without protecting you ears ir quite damaging to your hearing. The two of us are scheduled for ear surgery next thursday-

-Oh, my mistake. I assumed it was just a poor reaction to the council's decision. I said that you are on the council, but are not yet a master. However, now that i am reminded of it, i believe that rescuing the galaxy's most important head-of-state is an admirable substitute for the trials. Congratulations, Master Skywalker-

-This is an incredible honour- Anakin bows in gratitude -thank you for being open my talents, Master Windu, in spite of my recent arrogance. I will take a seat now-

-While we're on the topic, i suggest we wait until Master Kenobi's surgery is finished before we pursue Grievous. I mean, if the sequels are anything to go by, there's only a handful of planets he could be hiding on- said Mace Windu

-Good observation. If he's hiding in the Outer rim, we may wish to wait further - it would be smarter to work with an independent system, rather than invade and betray everything our Republic stands for-

-I concur. Not only would such a decision help transition the Republic back into a peacetime mindset, but it would leave enough ships to stop the droid attack on Kashyyyk with few casualties- The Cerean addressed the long-lived Jedi -What say you, Master Yoda?-

But Yoda did not answer, he remained silent. Until Obi-Wan spoke -…Master Yoda?-

-…Wrong, this all is-

-I'm sorry? I don't understand what you mean- Anakin asked, believing he had another problem with his hearing

-How it happend, this is not. Denied mastery, you were and bitched you did. Take caution, we did not. Reflect, we did not. Pursue peace and cooperation, we did not. Meta jokes made, they were not…- Yoda continued rambling until he came to a logical conclusion, logical to him -Real, this cannot be. A dream, this is-

-Of course this isn't real, old friend. But who is to say you cannot enjoy the euphoria of what could have been, even if only for a moment?- Obi-Wan's young voice deteriorated like his body, with each word he grew older…

#star wars #obi wan kenobi #anakin skywalker #mace windu #ki adi mundi #yoda

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darkdisrepair · 2 years

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imogen, laudna, and romance: cr3e27 part 1

though i didn't write a meta for episode 26 i'm back to break down some of the juicy first-half tidbits from the most recent critical role episode!

topics include: laudna & dusk | romance brain

and keep an eye out for part 2!

dusk asks laudna out

now, there are a few things outside of the whole situation that we can factor into this discussion: a) that dusk will eventually double-cross the group and b) that erika ishii the icon has a critical role romance hit list.

let's talk about point a (which to be honest is more relevant). there's a finesse to dusk's choices that i just love. for one, the bumbling, clumsy, enthusiastic character choice was perfect. it's hard not to trust someone who seems so open with their flaws and with the things that they forget.

but what's even more brilliant is that dusk has actually gotten close with the group, and not just in a "you saved me, thank you!! :)" way. because even that doesn't earn trust. not in the way that being a confidante does, not in the way that showing concern over backstory lore and protecting fearne when she's about to get rat-squished does.

if you didn't know dusk was a traitor, you could easily be fooled by the intimacy of it all, of growing to care about people. and what other way to both earn trust and to gain leverage over someone by "falling in love" with them?

it's a vulnerable position, to ask someone out. if you were doubtful about dusk (which i suspect orym and chetney, or at least liam and travis, are starting to wonder about), it's hard to feel like the sweet, shy person asking you on a date will backstab you. but also, becoming romantically entangled is an awfully good way to get someone to do something that you want.

think about it: when imogen and laudna (not saying they're romantically involved) were fighting, laudna would have done anything imogen asked her to do. and dusk likely saw this and thought: here is someone, when she cares about people, is so vulnerable and so desperate to maintain her sense of stability in her relationships that she will do anything to fix it.

possibly, even in the face of betrayal. here is someone dusk could potentially have on their side, if laudna cares about them enough.

it's a wonderful strategic choice. and for erika, it's also a great way for them to stir the pot for the gays, even though they've already checked marisha off the list in spectacular fashion. if only imogen were more approachable...

romance brain

so, laudna's reaction. i think it was valid and heartbreaking and charming all at once. she was quite literally blindsided by dusk there, right before a conversation she had been dreading for days, so it's understandable that she wouldn't be able to really present an answer.

and that's something people don't talk about. you can get blindsided by people seeking relationships with you, but you don't owe anyone anything, especially if you're not ready.

but what i also found interesting was that laudna said: "i haven't accessed that part of my brain in 50 years" and imogen's response is "it would be strange to access that."

hello, headcanon that imogen is aromantic hehe

in all seriousness: i've been thinking lately about the expectations that have been placed on imodna since the beginning for a romantic relationship- but to me, neither of them are really built to intensely strive for that?

imogen has gone through so much with reading people's minds, hearing the awfulness of humanity, and being shunned for being who she is. the intimacy of romance, then, i feel like would feel really hard for her, because like she said about dates: "you're in their mind and you're hearing what you're doing wrong." and that's just it, isn't it?

it's hard to have a relationship (or even a friendship, as has been illustrated by her dynamics with everyone) when you know you can delve into their mind and just find out what's going on. it's hard to have a relationship when the very part that makes you you can be very off-putting and is something you always have to keep in check.

and she's heard the worst of the world, and every horrible part about romantic relationships. so perhaps i do headcanon that she's aromantic, because romance is hard and wouldn't it just make sense, if romance just doesn't click with her because she's familiar with intimacy both at its worst, and in the smallest, minute thoughts of the people around her? and to her, aren't the thoughts of friendship equally as gentle, and thoughtful, and beautiful as romance?

and then there's laudna, who is quite literally undead, and like she said, also hasn't accessed that part of her brain for 50 years, and that so much has been going on that she hasn't had time for that.

and i totally get that, too, when you're so focused on pushing forward and improving yourself and working towards better that you don't have time for romance, and the notion isn't that appealing.

that's not saying that i'll be at all upset if they do become canon (because let's be honest, the cast loves their party romances and who am i to protest amazing character moments and beautiful relationships), because i think that would also be beautiful in its own way, but i do think imogen and laudna at least won't be jumping into a relationship in the near future, for the reasons i talked about.

either way, i'm excited a) for the joy of a queer platonic relationship or b) a wonderfully delicious slow burn like you wouldn't believe.

the conversation was brilliantly played and wonderful in that it acknowledged everything that each of them had done wrong. i'm very glad that the first thing, really, imogen apologizes for was not checking in on laudna after she was controlled by delilah. she acknowledges how terrible that would have been and how scary it was and i think that is really the most important aspect of this argument to have been covered.

because, as people have pointed out in my asks (which i accidentally deleted, so sorry to that user) laudna was compromised and taken advantage of for someone else's own gain, and when she needed a friend, imogen wasn't there for her.

luckily, it seems like imogen is very aware of that fact. and i suspect that she will make every effort to be there every step of the delilah journey from here on out.

but laudna also acknowledged what imogen had been through: that breaking the rock was wrong, even if it wasn't technically her fault, and that imogen had gone through a dream alone.

i'm also glad they talked without fcg, because ultimately, it gave each of them (laudna, imogen, and fcg) the chance to get what they needed out of the conversations of that night, without feeling like they had to put on a performance for someone else, or pretend that fcg's style of therapy was working for them when in the end, it ended up being so simple.

laudna and imogen, just them, the way that everything started. and i think that's beautiful.

#imogen temult #laudna #dusk #critical role #critical role spoilers #cr spoilers #cr meta #meta #imogen meta #laudna meta #imodna #imogen x laudna #cr campaign 3 #cr3e27

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