I noticed something in a lot of your Dick and Tim fics. It's probably so obvious, but you always write that Tim is watching Dick. In your newest one, Tim's watching Dick, in The Return Tim's watching Dick, and you even write that Tim is always watching him. Is Tim trying to read Dick? Trying to understand? Or does he understand him by watching? What is he trying to figure out by watching Dick? What does that say about Tim? I really hope this is intentional lmao because I would be embarrassed. Maybe this is just something so obvious that I'm just getting now.
YES IT’S ON PURPOSE <333 Anon. Anon. I'm so sorry this answer took forever, but listen, this was a really delightful ask <333 I think about this a lot. I really love origin stories—I like stories that resonate through a character’s history.
And for me, a whole lot of what interests me about Dick and Tim is that theme of watching and being watched. Seeing and being seen.
"Watch me on the trapeze, Tim. I'm going to do my act...'specially for you." | "Timmy, don't look." | "I turned away... I couldn't watch. Then I heard you crying and I turned back... I'm sorry, Dick. I didn't want to hurt you by telling you all this."
Dick's watching me. Gauging my reactions. (Tim watching Dick watching Tim!) | "I'm taking off the blindfold." "No!" | "I can't see him. You can't see him. But I know Robin. And Robin's always there when you need him." | I love that kid. Too much to let him see me like this. (But Tim spots him anyway.)
Spotlights and lighthouses and cameras and photographs. Blindness and vision and masks and detective work and trust.
I'm going to try to be coherent about this but it's gonna be incoherent sdfsf BUT I'M GOING TO TRY so. Below the cut, a really long grab-bag of my rambling on vision and watchers and watching.
Tim + watching / Dick + being watched / different dynamics
Tim's origin story
Being watched goes with vulnerability/exposure
Incomplete list of moments with Dick and Tim and vision
Tim + watching
The first time we see Tim's face in LPoD: a close-up on his eyes looking for Dick, a close-up on his eyes at the moment that he sees Dick, a pullback to his face at the moment of recognition, a pullback to his face + his camera
(you could maybe even argue that Tim comes into existence at the moment that he sees Dick, like, conceptually. the act of seeing is his defining characteristic. it is the thing that makes his character happen. he is the kid who's watching.)
Tim's a very vision-centric character: he's first introduced as a camera, then as a pair of binoculars, then as a pair of eyes. His whole backstory is about watching: watching Dick's parents die, watching Dick on TV, watching Batman and Robin. I've grabbed a few panels above with Tim watching Dick but there are so many more. His major deductions are all vision-based: he sees Dick-the-acrobat and later recognizes Dick-as-Robin; he sees Bruce-in-the-past and recognizes him as Bruce-of-our-time; the climactic moment in Red Robin is about going into a dark cave with a torch so he can see what's there.
And he's a detective. He pries into secrets. He analyzes people. He's a worrywart and a fusser who always wants to understand what's going on with other people. In a lot of those panels where Tim's watching Dick, his inner monologue is busy deducing Dick's emotions and trying to psychoanalyze him. Tim's caring and watchful and intuitive... but all those qualities also make him very very intrusive.
Dick + being watched
Dick performing acrobatics for Bruce, Donna, and Tim in Detective Comics 38 (his first appearance), New Teen Titans 16, Batman 441, and Nightwing 88 (where he reflects he's glad to be back in the hot glare of the spotlight)
Dick's a detective too, of course - Tim deliberately mirrors Dick, both in-universe and out-of-universe. But also Dick's a performer who loves being watched and also wants to control how he's seen. He gets a kick out of showing off, making puns, kicking ass, taking names, and he gets a kick out of having an appreciative audience. And he's got a kind of yearning for recognition - it hurts, when Bruce won't look at him, and in fights with Bruce, Babs, Roy, he'll often bring up the past, trying to get them to acknowledge a shared history.
At the same time, he's a very private person who withdraws and hides and pushes people away when he's upset. Right before Tim shows up, Dick's just ghosted the Titans because he's having emotional turmoil and doesn't want to have it in front of them, and they're trying to respect his wishes... but that solitude doesn't last long, because then Tim tracks him down. Tim will do this again when Dick's having an emotional crisis and trying to avoid everybody in Nightwing 110.
Possible dynamics
Tim watches Dick in Robin 11, while silently analyzing Dick's anxieties about Two-Face
"The watcher and the person being watched" is a dynamic that really interests me, partly because it can be so complicated?
You can see in Dick and Tim their very first roles: enthusiastic performer and the enthusiastic audience member. Dick likes to perform and show off and entertain; Tim likes to watch; those are roles they both easily slide into and they have a lot of fun together! But also you can look at the harsher side: the crime victim and the voyeur, the amateur photographer and the guy who hates being photographed. Dick's intensely private about his vulnerabilities; Tim's intrusive and watchful and constantly trying to figure out how other people tick. Sometimes Tim's the caring friend who watches Dick closely, reads him well, understands him; sometimes he's the nosy mini-detective who pries into Dick's secrets. And that's just two different ways of describing the same thing!
One of the things that kinda fascinates me about Dick and Tim's relationship is that in a lot of ways it's built on a bunch of low-key boundary violations. A lot of their early relationship is driven by Tim's desire to know more about Dick vs. Dick's reluctance to get close to anyone from Gotham; Tim's often out-of-line, but without his pushiness, it's hard to see how they would've developed a relationship at all. Later on, their friendlier relationship is marked by Dick teasing and low-key bullying Tim; it's pretty obvious that Tim isn't actually bothered by this, but it does involve Dick ignoring whatever Tim's claiming he doesn't like ("Quit it!" "Shh").
And one of the aspects of those boundary-violations is that Tim has a habit of witnessing things that Dick would prefer that nobody see. Tim's a witness to Dick's first and most miserable tragedy; he sees the aftermath of some of Dick's fights with Bruce; he's there when Donna dies. And he's sharp and observant and analytical, and I like to imagine this as being something Dick's not entirely comfortable with.
When Dick first meets Tim, it's before he's learned to wear a mask. And Tim spends a lot of time trying to see through Dick's masks, and he's pretty good at it, and a lot of that prying comes from love and care, because one of the ways that Tim shows love and respect and admiration is by trying to absorb absolutely everything about you, like a little sponge. But there's also something unsparing and even threatening about the search for the truth of someone else. It can be comforting or threatening, to know someone's watching you.
And I love how all that complexity is wrapped up in Tim's origin story? Both the giddy childish "Watch me on the trapeze" and then the awful grim reality of what Tim actually sees as a result and then the difficult connection when Dick and Alfred finally get Tim to explain how he knows their secret identities.
Tim's origin story
Tim (recounting his origin story in LPoD): My parents held me back as the thing moved to you. I cried out to warn you. (Two panels where we see just Tim's eyes, as he watches a crying Dick. He sees Batman approach and start trying to comfort Dick.)
I think fiction sometimes presents "being understood / seen / known" as an uncomplicatedly good thing, and there's nothing wrong with that! But I like complications, and I like the way Tim's origin story frames that moment of witnessing as difficult and fraught. Tim doesn't want to tell Dick how he knows their secret identities because he thinks it'll hurt Dick to know it: I don't want to hurt you, Dick, and I'm really afraid I might. And he's not wrong. It is painful; it does hurt; it's not something Dick's happy to know.
Dick's a very private person, and there's a painful intimacy to Tim's origin story - it's not Tim's fault he was there, but at the same time, it's not like Dick chose to have the most traumatic moment of his life on stage in front of an audience of strangers, you know? It's kind of a violation. In NTT/NT/Nightwing, Dick's pretty violently hostile to photographers, and he's intensely private about trauma in general, and I like to imagine this as partly a reaction to that foundational trauma of losing the most important people in his life and also doing it publicly.
And Tim's part of that audience. And he sees the worst part, the part that Dick can't talk about. He sees the bodies and the blood. He has nightmares about it for years. He hears Dick crying and sees him holding onto his parents' bodies. Not at all the kind of first impression Dick would want to make. Not at all the kind of person he wants to be seen as. And that understanding can be painful, because it's so close to the bone, and when Tim's just a stranger, it's upsetting, because Tim knows things that Dick would never have chosen for him to know. Their few conversations about it are awkward partly because Tim's thirteen and awkward... but at the same time, it's not Tim's fault so much as the situation! There's no way for Tim to talk about what he saw that wouldn't be uncomfortable for Dick.
... And yet, and yet. Tim's also one of the last people to see the Graysons alive. He sees Dick and his parents together; he even takes a picture with them. He remembers the whole thing so vividly he'll recognize Dick's somersault years later. He sees the grief. And so I think of that connection as kind of a metaphor for witnessing. Tim sees these things and they become real; Dick can't hide from them; in the act of being seen he's caught, he's in a spotlight, all the grief made real. You can't hide, that way. And Tim's got this unforgiving memory; he won't ever forget; he won't ever stop knowing.
But then, too: Dick's seen, he's known. Even at the very beginning, when Tim doesn't know enough to understand what he knows, he knows the important things.
So that shared memory is a barrier and a bond between them. It can be a source of discomfort or a source of comfort. And that's how I think about Tim watching Dick in general - it's complicated, and sometimes Dick's glad of it, and sometimes he resents it, and also it just is, it's a fact of Tim, that Tim watches. It's notable when he's not watching, when he's turned away.
Being watched goes with vulnerability/exposure
So I'm going to talk about the fraught feeling of being watched more in a little bit, but first: I think it's fascinating that Dick likes screwing around with games where Tim can't see!
Here's Nightwing 25 - Dick's come up with the idea of trainsurfing while blindfolded:
Tim: Are you sure this is such a good idea?
Dick: Shh! Listen. Tune into the changing sounds and -
Tim: I'm not so -
Dick: JUMP!
Here's Robin 49 - clambering through a tunnel into No Man's Land:
Dick: Hard not to think about the river. All the water above us. And bugs. This tunnels' probably full of 'em. And rats. Big ones. Big blind rats with teeth as long as -
Here's Gotham Knights 9 - ambushing Tim in a sorta game of hide-and-seek:
Dick: Gotcha!
Tim: Augh!
I feel like mmm I don't want to emphasize power dynamics too much because it's easy to overplay it BUT when I think about headcanons it's interesting to me to think about how maybe when Tim can't see, Dick's more in charge / in control, and so he feels more comfortable and less vulnerable, and that's often when he's most relaxed and playing around the most?
Whereas the moments when Tim's looking at him are often a bit more fraught, as here in Lonely Place of Dying:
Tim: I'm sorry, Dick. I really am. I didn't want to hurt you by telling you all this. Dick...
Dick: It's all right, Tim. No matter how old you are, there are some things you never forget. Or get over.
(Silent panel: Tim's watching Dick as Dick turns away and stares into the window.)
Or here in Nightwing 6, when Tim wakes him up from a nightmare:
Dick (internally, imagining a kid falling): He shouts to me. He always shouts to me. I never hear what he says.
Tim: Nightwing! Wake up!
Or here in Gotham Knights 26, when Bruce is accused of murder:
(Silent panel where Tim's watching Dick.)
Tim: I'm sorry. This must be hard for you.
Dick: Me? Why?
Tim: Well, I mean, it'd be one thing if we really knew he was innocent, but as it is -
Dick: Wait, what? Stop right there. What are you saying, Tim?
Here's Tim spotting him before he can get away in Nightwing 110:
Dick (watching Tim from a distance, internally): Still, Timmy played it through nice and clean. Disarmed the perps, protected and avoided the cops. Kept any civilians from getting shot. God, I love that kid. Too much to let him see me like this.
Tim: Hey! (appearing on the roof above him, fake-cheerful) You weren't gonna leave without saying hi, were you?
Dick (looking away, very quietly): Hey, Timmy.
Tim: Look at you, man! Back on both feet! Think you're done stopping bullets with your body for a while?
Dick: Hope springs eternal.
(Silent panel with Tim watching Dick, who's turned away.)
Tim: You okay, Dick?
Dick: I'm fine.
Tim: Well, where're you staying these days?
Dick: With some people.
Of course, sometimes Tim's watchfulness is frustrating but also a comfort, as in Detective Comics 874:
Tim (watching Dick, who's looking away): Are you listening to me, Batman? I'm saying the gas the Dealer used on you was powerful stuff.
Dick: I'm fine, Red Robin. Besides...you're here now.
Tim: You're not fine. And with or without me, you shouldn't be out on patrol ye -
Dick: Sshhh. Here they come.
(Later in the comic, Dick mentally concedes that Tim's right that he hasn't really recovered from the gas, and Tim saves him from drowning when he's hallucinating. So Dick feels kind of exposed by the scrutiny, but also... he invited Tim along, so there's trust there, too - Tim's perceptiveness can be a good thing, too, when things are serious.)
Incomplete summary of moments with Dick and Tim and vision
I think I already mentioned a lot of these but here is my LIST
almost the first thing that Dick says to Tim is "watch me on the trapeze, Tim" and then Tim does and he basically never stops watching;
Tim watches Dick's parents die and watches Dick sobbing on-stage and watches him on TV and recognizes him by seeing a particular trick because he's dreamed about Dick doing the trick in his recurring nightmares about that night;
in New Titans 65 which is their very first team-up comic after Tim's origin, Dick's training pre-Robin Tim and gives him a test about watching for details and later Tim's takeaway is "I saw how [the Titans] listened to you";
there's a moment in Showcase '93 12 which is just Tim watching Dick and analyzing what's going on with him and there's another moment in Prodigal which is the same thing;
in Nightwing 6 Tim sneaks into Dick's apartment and hides in the dark and Dick spots him and tackles him; one of their most important bonding comics is Nightwing 25, where Dick insists on blindfolding him to get him to rely less on vision; when they sneak into No Man's Land they're in the dark and Tim can't see again and Dick's teasing him;
there are multiple moments when Tim can't see Dick for a bit and panics about his safety, in Nightwing 25, in No Man's Land, in Transference, in Bruce Wayne: Murderer;
Tim's there watching when Dick's wedding to Kory falls apart and he's there watching when Bruce and Dick fight and he's there watching when Donna dies and he's watching when Dick and Bruce swing together on the night before Infinite Crisis, and when Dick goes down and almost dies in Infinite Crisis we cut to Tim watching and seeing it happen and screaming;
there are multiple moments which are just silent panels of them staring at each other trying to figure out what's going on with each other or having a stand-off - in Bruce Wayne: Murderer, in Resurrection, in Red Robin;
in the aftermath of Donna's death there's a panel where Dick's watching Tim from a distance and not approaching;
in the aftermath of Blockbuster Dick spends half the comic just staring at Tim from a distance and hiding himself because "I love that kid - too much to let him see me like this," but Tim sees him anyway and chases him down and then they lie to each other and *ranting* LISTEN TO ME the whole comic is about Dick trying to AVOID being SEEN both literally but also METAPHORICALLY AND --!!!
(the only thing i'm even as halfway obsessive about for them is the heights thing because also there are a bunch of moments involving falling or Tim being anxious about heights and worried that he'll fall or Dick will fall)
In conclusion
Consider the progression in all these moments where Tim's watching an upset Dick and worrying about him!! From reaching out instinctively-but-pointlessly when he's too far away in the LPoD flashback, to almost reaching out in LPoD but hesitating, to putting a hand on Dick's back to walk him back to the Cave in Gotham Knights 10, to physically dragging him clear of the water in Batman: Black Mirror!
In conclusion I don't have a conclusion but basically YES, "watching Dick" is a core Tim characteristic as far as I'm concerned, and Tim watches Dick a lot and that can mean all kinds of things from admiration to nosy intrusiveness to worry to care to gratitude to trying-to-figure-out-what's-going-on-with-him, and sometimes Dick's resentful and sometimes he's relieved and sometimes he's playful and sometimes it's a mix of all those feelings.
And at first it's always Tim watching Dick, but later you've got Dick watching Tim too, and there's that moment where Dick's secretly watching him fight but Tim spots him in Nightwing 110 and there's a silent panel where Dick's watching him in Resurrection and at the very end of Robin there's a scene where Dick's secretly watching him fight but Tim spots him and in the very last issue of Red Robin Dick's watching the end of the confrontation with Boomerang and in Prodigal Dick's the one who notices his face is bruised and aaaaaaah
Anyway I think they're neat <3
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Before you deride anyone for being an "idiot", you should probably shit can the Meyers-Briggs pseudo-science in your description. You know, that way you don't look like an idiot who buys into that stuff.
Naaah, I still think that accusing a very anti-nationalist creator that created a very anti-nationalist movie FOR nationalism just because his movie used trademark brilliant Japanese nonverbal display instead of spelling stuff out like poorly written modern Western media IS pretty "idiotic". Waaaay more "idiotic" than MBTI stuff. 🌛 (retroactive, because I already did take my insult back several days ago)
I'll have you know that whereas MBTI is definitely not as binding and fails in what it tries to do (just like every attempt to strictly categorize people failed), it is actually SUPER handy to communicate a LOT of traits and patterns within a short abbreviation instead of a long essay! For example, people that know MBTI lore will read that I am ENTP and instantly expect me to be a lover of debates and "devil's advocate", be bad at talking about my feelings genuinely and sound hurtful without any intention to do so! If person chose to describe themselves with an MBTI label, it doesn't necessarily mean they are the type to take it super seriously, but often it is a way to communicate what to expect from their personality in a really compact form! Or at least what this person believes about themselves, which is also good for "communicating without communicating" :p Most people that have MBTI in their bio/pinned/whatever aren't as serious about it. Those that tried to choose friends/couple and form a collective according to MBTIs are long ago extinct, trust me!
I also found MBTI useful for some writing stuff. To define a type, you have to make 4 choices between 4 pairs of traits: 1) Introvert or Extrovert; self-explanatory 2) Sensory or iNtuitive; so, oriented more in "physical" reality and present or into past, thoughts and concepts 3) Thinking or Feeling; so, stronger at logic and thinking, or at empathy and tact? 4) Perceptive or Judging; so, an open-minded person that is okay with leaving loose ends or a person that needs clear distinction and final conclusion! Yeah they are very bare-bones descriptions and there is more to say about the 8 'letters', I am just cutting to the chase! I never passed MBTI test, I just figured which one of these aspects applied to me and it made ENTP abbreviation! Then I read the description of this type and could recognize a lot about myself. You can for example do that for a character you want to develop, get the abbreviation, then go read full description of this type and I guarantee you, there will be MANY things in the text making you go "damn this makes sooooo much sense for this character 👀" or otherwise inspire a vision of them!
I agree that people that get too caught up into MBTI stuff can be frustrating, and that accuracy of MBTIs is long ago debunked; again, no way to split humans into clear cut types works and we are all too different! Zodiac signs stuff is a similar problem. But, these things are good for communicating aspects of your personality quickly, for finding which sides of yourself to focus on and get "coherent shape" (very useful for my personality disorder ass!) and are good for WRITING! I've even found using MBTI descriptions as a help a good preventive measure from too much self-protection onto characters I am writing! You know same face syndrome issue in drawing? Sometimes the same problem is possible in writing personalities, MBTI is something that helped me to double-check whether I am doing this. Don't harshly discard a thing just because you haven't found an efficient way to utilize it! MBTI failed at what it intended to do but succeeded at being a good compilation of distinct traits and ways to think, act and react!
On the other hand, believing in anti-scientifical things is not necessarily a sign of being a judgemental, narrow-minded, "idiotic" person: a person is only an "idiot" when they make themselves be.
___________
That being said, I don't blame you for being strictly negative? MBTI craze, Zodiacs stuff and similar things have history of really annoying people wasting their time and being weird about what they tell others but that's not my case. In my country MBTIs are in general 90% fandom of memes xd I might consider removing ENTP from my bio in the future if I estimate people are more likely to expect the worst (like you did) than take it for fun after that """science""" has fallen but I just dunno yet. But I'd appreciate if you didn't use harping on me for a mistake I already apologized for to express your disapproval of MBTI stuff 🌛 Not only it is cruel, but also even UNDER assumption that liking MBTI stuff makes me an "idiot" your logic doesn't work - why would doing one stupid thing remove my right to call out another, irrelevant (!!!) stupid thing? This is like saying that only "perfect" people are allowed to offer criticism and disapproval towards frustrating situations and I am not here for this sort of attitude. Someone can be competent in one area and be a complete moron in another area, does it mean they can't talk about what they're competent at anymore?
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i've only seen the scene once, so maybe i misread it, but... i saw imogen being kinda distant and stoic? detached hyper-rational? in her talk with laudna at the end. like, i saw more emotion in the whole fcg/fearne parents doll therapy. i'm not sure what i expected in this first "now laudna is scared and needs a friend" scenario, but i wasnt satisfied with the whole "she's evil, don't believe her. lets go we gotta solve our problems in order, there are bigger ones". again, maybe i misread it.
tl;dr: i think imogen approaches problems by just Feeling Minimal Emotions (sans rage), and Laudna and Imogen both have very distinct (and understandable) comfort/reassurance methods.
Hmmm. So, I don't really agree with this interpretation, although I can see where it comes from. Sure, Imogen was being very very- level, and matter of fact, and her tone very, very low and steady. You could make an argument for the detatched-hyper-rational tone, but I think equating it to a lack of care or even bad care really doesn't jibe for me.
A lot of this probably hinges on my personal reading of Imogen, but knowing that Imogen is the kind of person to sort of Shove All Her Emotions Way Down Deep And Do What's Necessary when things get dicey sets the stage here for me. Its been a rough morning. And after all that hubbub, after F.C.G is getting healed up- this is Laudna, normally her rock (ha), shaken and wavering and none of her usual stability in sight, Delilah threatening more and more, and Laudna is- rattled.
It makes a lot of sense to me that Imogen is trying to stay as steady, as calm, as level and logical and rational as possible, and trying to provide that to Laudna too.
I also think that Laudna and Imogen approach comfort and reassurance in radically different ways- and both ways that make a lot of sense for their characters.
Laudna comfort tends to be about- affirmations, and validations, and compliments. Its very positivity oriented. Its about 30 years alone, about isolation and a horrific death and people recoiling in horror from what you are, and town after town of hostility. Its about finding small good things and positives in an ocean of awful to hold onto and showering compliments and little gestures of support. Cups of water in a hand. Sometimes the logistics of things are bleak and tragic and the facts don't change when you look at them, but you can find the good in them if you keep looking.
Imogen comfort, on the other hand, has a lot to do with breaking things down until you can breathe right again, until you can corral the panic and the whirlwind and spiralling into order again. Its about- a brain overwhelmed with thoughts, your own and others, about fear that grips you by the throat and leaves you sleepless. Its about spirals of anxiety/thoughts/feelings that paralyze you if you try to indulge them. Its about- crushing the emotions down, the good, and the bad, before they can overwhelm you. Give your hands and your self something to do. Breaking down those insurmountable problems into bits and pieces, truths you know. Things you are sure of. Things you have to be sure of, so you don't get ripped into howling winds.
Or to put it another way- i think the surety, the facts, are meant as a comforting gesture from Imogen the same way a cup of water in the hand is for Laudna.
And. I think the more terrified she is, the more angry, the more there is on the line- the more still and sharp Imogen goes. ( 👀👀👀 )
(None of the above directly dictates how helpful it was for Laudna, but the intent? I think the intent was there.)
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