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1moremilgram-enjoyer · 8 months

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is everyone in milgram just dead

Okay I'm making this post because while I'm not sure how much I believe this, it's a possibility that's been eating at my head for a while, so I gotta share it somewhere even if it's not the most solid theory in the world.

So anyways, hello members of the jury! Today I want to discuss the weirdly recurring theme of the prisoners in Milgram possibly being dead, and Milgram being some sort of afterlife thing. Given the fact it clearly has some supernatural elements, it certainly isn't impossible. So let's get into it!

CW Death, murder and suicide, abortion, child abuse, drowning, cults and indoctrination, waterboarding, gang violence

Yuno and the Allegations

The biggest hint that at least some of the prisoners might be dead is the in Yuno's second VD, Absolute Zero.

Yuno: Oh! Also, that reminds me, there was one thing I'm curious about. Es: What? Go ahead and say it. Y: Am I…really alive? E: That's…what do you…. Y: Hm…if you don't know, then it's fine. E: Yuno…. Y: Hey, it's time, right? E: Y-yes. Prisoner number 2, Yuno. Sing your sins.

Weird thing to say, really. So, presumably, she has some reason to believe she might be dead. Which is especially worrying because Yuno is one of the most intelligent and perceptive prisoners in Milgram, and might even have higher awareness of some of the more supernatural/meta elements of the series, as seen by images from both her cover songs appearing in Umbilical and Tear Drop.

All this is to say, if Yuno has reason to believe she might be dead, we have reason to believe so as well.

There are two points of Yuno's story were I feel she could have died. One is during her abortion, given a question from Trial 2.

(T2) Q20: Did you hate the person you killed?

Y: It was too much of a pain to for me to think about anything.

So her abortion was painful, which likely means it wasn't done in a hospital, as professional abortions typically don't cause too much pain in the moment (source), even if they can cause cramping or discomfort in the recovery period. If it wasn't done professionally, and it hurt a lot, it's very possible she may have died while performing it.

However, because of a few things we'll talk about later, I'm not sure this is very likely. The answer I find more likely is that, unfortunately, she may have committed suicide by jumping off the staircase we see her standing on in her Undercover silhouette shot.

For one, because what the hell would this shot even be otherwise. I've seen people suggest infanticide as opposed to abortion, but that wouldn’t cause physical pain (you could argue that answer is about emotional pain, but I'm not sure how much that works), it doesn't match her kill-shot in Undercover, and she herself has claimed her "muder" was abortion (and I don't see reason for her to lie about that). It also doesn't seem likely she would get pregnant more than once, seeing this question:

(T2) Q10: If you could turn back time, would you commit the same murder once again?

Y: I'd make sure that I won't have to commit it. That's it.

So, then, what the hell is up with that Undercover shot? Usually they say something important about the prisoner or their crime, but it really doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything.

This is where I bring up that Yuno falls off a staircase at the end of Umbilical.

Like, obviously this is more meant to be metaphorical, as in Yuno "slipped up" and now has to avoid falling by grabbing the balloon, which ends up destroying the staircase which had previously been related to the mixing of DNA (long story). But... she still is falling from a staircase. That is what is happening in the video. This is a silly argument, but it does exist.

Now, there's a few other things which could imply this, but that will have to wait for a moment. So while there is very little evidence for now, I'd say this is the most likely reason for why Yuno believes she may be dead. Especially given she might have depression (check out this cool post by weather-cluddy), her comitting suicide is sort of the best guess we can make I feel.

Nevertheless, no matter the reason why, Yuno believes she may be dead, which opens the door to other characters, if not all of them, to be dead as well. Let's take a look at the other prisoner most likely to actually be dead in my opinion, and see if we can establish a pattern.

Haruka's Worrying Situation

I believe, even if no one else is dead, it is highly likely Haruka attempted suicide. I am not going to go too in-depth in here, because moibakadesu already made a really good post about it, which is where I got the theory from in the first place. In fact, the idea Haruka may have at least attempted suicide has existed ever since Trial 1, check out this cool post by Venus from thinkin-bout-milgram. Here's a summary of what the main points of the theory are:

-The repeated motif of water and drowning could indicate the way Haruka killed himself, especially since he lived in Naogaka, Niigata, known as the "city of water."

-Haruka repeatedly attacks and even strangles a younger version of himself in Weakness, in one occasion alongside the lyric "I've become a victim, I've become a victim."

-The young girl in Weakness might actually be a representation of the "ideal Haruka", as he's stated his mother wanted a daughter instead of a son (I don't actually agree with this part, I do think the girl is a literal girl Haruka killed, due to several lines from his VDs, such as him saying Amane "brings back bad memories." However, it's still a possibility)

-The nonchalance with which Haruka speaks of comitting suicide in his second MV, Metamorphosis of the Weak, could imply he's already done it once.

-The line "if with one click, and I can reset everything" in AKAA can be more directly translated to "if with the push of one button I could be reborn", which paired with butterflies being symbols of death and rebirth and being connected to Haruka because of the name of his second VD, could imply Haruka died and was reborn.

-Haruka standing on a chair in AKAA as his shadow lines up with the shadow of the bars in the window to create the ilusion he has a noose around his neck.

-At the end of AKAA, Haruka is surrounded in what looks to be formaldehyde, which is used to preserve the corpses of dead animals, while the aforementioned "I could be reborn" lyric plays.

As you can see, there's a lot here, which is why I think it is highly likely Haruka comitted suicide.

There is an issue with bringing this theory in, which is that part of the theory is that Haruka's silhouette in the Undercover shot doesn't have white noise, which separates him from the others and could imply he's a victim like Hinako and Mahiru's boyfriend, who similarly have no white noise. The problem for our purposes is that this theory assumes a lot of the other prisoners, such as Yuno, may have committed suicide as well, creating an inconsistency with this point. I don't have a good answer for this, beyond a really odd, Hamlet-esque "Haruka is a victim of his own madness" kind of thing which doesn't work very well, so unless any of you have another explanation, it's best for this theory to just sorta ignore the white noise thing.

So, now we have two prisoners who very likely died before Milgram. This vaguely establishes a possible pattern: what if all the prisoners were taken right as they died?

Muu’s Mysterious Memory Mishaps

Es: You said you wanted to go back home, right? And, "suppose" we did let you… Even if you were to leave this place, you'll then have a brush with the police, won't you? Muu: *Surprised* E: I mean, you've killed someone anyway, so are the police not making a move in regards to that? M: Well, I don't know. As of now, I don't have a clear memory of what happened after I did it. And then before I knew it, I was here. E: Is… that so? M: You guys should've known that, being the ones who brought me here after all.

This line from Muu’s first VD has always intrigued me. Muu doesn’t have a very good reason to be lying here when seen in full context, so she’s likely telling the truth. But, why? Why doesn’t Muu remember anything clearly after her crime, and why was she taken so quickly after committing it?

First idea is that perhaps all the prisoners are simply taken right after the murder they’re in Milgram for; even in the case of multiple murders, you can say Milgram just decided to take them for the last one exclusively.

However, Shidou serves as a counter example, because of the ending of Throw Down.

It’s a pretty simple logical progression. Shidou has no reason to kill after the flower person dies, so their death is after his last murder most likely, and yet he does remember it happening. Thus, Shidou has a memory of something which happened an undetermined amount of time after his final murder.

That means the "fuzzy memories" thing isn't universal. This can also be vaguely inferred by the attitudes certain prisoners have regarding their "murder(s)", like Kazui for example.

Now, you could argue Muu simply doesn't remember well because of the Trauma, and she just happened to get taken shortly after her murder. However, there is a chance now that there is a reason she was taken shortly after her murder.

You know what this post is about. You know what I'm about to imply. So I'll make the observation now:

In It's Not my Fault, one of Muu's shoes is off after she kills Rei. And we have seen this imagery of "one shoe off" to represent suicide before.

It's common in Japan to take both shoes off before comitting suicide, but if you want to read into only one of the shoes being off, you could argue it represents they're "half-suicides", as Milgram also considers them murders. In that sense, you (or Muu) could argue were Muu to commit suicide after killing Rei, then she would also become "Rei's victim", the same way Hinako and Mahiru's boyfriend are Kazui and Mahiru's victims.

This idea that Muu might still be a victim in the situation could also be implied by the lyrics here:

[It's Not my Fault] It’s not my fault after all, after all. Everyone wants me to be innocent. What a relief. Can’t be helped. I’m always meant to be pitied!

(Btw I'm using the fan translation in the wiki because the English subs in that video are... odd)

Yes that sentiment is repeated a lot during the song, but Muu does shout "I'm always meant to be pitied" ("I'm always the drama queen") at the top of her lungs here.

Now, the shoe thing isn't quite like that in After Pain, but we never actually see Muu's shoes in the real world, only in the blank inner world with the broken hourglass, and there are other inconsistencies with reality there, namely Rei's body's position.

You can see her right shoe is on there, but again, this scene isn't real.

The concerning thing is that apart from that, After Pain does not help Muu beat the suicide allegations.

In particular, look at the scene of the photo I put there. You can see there's a bunch of people judging Muu for her murder, as it's usually not considered a socially acceptable thing to do. But, hold on, didn't Muu say she didn't remember anything after her murder? Correct! That means she doesn't remember this "judgement" happening, but she imagined it would. Perhaps that's what the one line means:

[After Pain] Counterattack being a suicide note

Counterattacking Rei, killing her, is social suicide. For obvious reasons.

...

But it's still called a suicide note, which is not a good look. And yes, I do think the Japanese lyric explicitly references death, though take that with a lot of salt since that's just Google Translate and DeepL talking.

In fact, that entire set of lyrics is pretty odd.

[After Pain] Let’s meet up inside the pain, a place just for me Postmortem makeup to hide my heart, how to solve it is a secret The stabbing of the little devil’s voice, counterattack being a suicide note “I love YOU”

"Meeting up inside the pain" probably refers to hurting Rei, so now they're hurting together. The "stabbing of a little devil's voice" is probably referring to dangerous impulses, so murderous thoughts. "Counterattack being a suicide note", already explained. "I love YOU", because Muu is a girlkisser.

But the "postmortem makeup" is odd. You could argue the "death" which happened before the "makeup" was applied was the "death" of Muu's reputation, her old persona. Rei "killed" "that Muu", and now Muu is hiding her real feelings with "postmortem makeup."

But then, why would the method to solve it be a secret? Who is she keeping it secret from? Rei, and all of Muu's old 'friends', all know what lies beyond that makeup, they all saw what Muu was like before Rei stepped in.

That means there's another interpretation. If her real feelings are a secret, there's only one person they would be a secret from. Es (and us by extension). In a way, After Pain is hiding part of her heart, the less sympathetic parts shown in full in It's Not My Fault. Muu being a bully was already implied in After Pain, mind you, but it was still relatively "hidden", at least compared to It's Not my Fault.

And if that is the way we're meant to read that line, we run into the allegations again. If the makeup is for Milgram, and it's "postmortem" makeup, then Muu is already dead.

And that's without mentioning how much After Pain seems to imply suicidal tendencies in general.

[After Pain] If I was gone, If I had just disappeared I overheard, I found out How much I’m not needed There’s no special meaning, I got the short end of the stick I overheard, I found out How much I’m not needed

I don’t want tomorrow to come, I want to forget yesterday I was miserable, someone please help me

Maybe I’m done Just one more time before saying goodbye I’m just kidding, please forget I said that

The only lyric that doesn't seem to imply it is:

I want to feel “alive”, is it ok if I breathe?

But feeling alive and being alive isn't quite the same, right? You can be alive without feeling alive, and if someone doesn't feel alive, it's possible they're not a very good state of mind.

So, what could this all imply? If we're going with the idea of murder-suicide, it's possible Muu was very worried about how people would hate her after the murder, as implied by After Pain, decided she didn't want to deal with that, and unfortunately made the decision to kill herself.

One small thing which could serve as a counterpoint is her Trial 1 Voice Reveal distorted line.

Fufufu... It's your fault... for doing horrible things to me.

She seems pretty sure of herself here, and it's very likely this is after her murder. But it's perfectly possible she said this initially, then thought about the social consequences, and that's when she started to feel bad. It's also worth noting the only time in It's Not my Fault where Muu seems to hesitate is right after her murder.

[It's Not my Fault] Wait, wait, just as a hypothetical. What should I do if I’m actually a bad girl? Don’t ever hate me, and don’t look for what lies “after and from” the pain.

This is immediately after the murder, when she comes out of a caccoon, presumably her arriving at Milgram. So, she was initally confident, that's when she says "I’m always meant to be pitied!" in It's Not my Fault and presumably her Voice Reveal line, then hesitated and started to feel awful as we see in After Pain.

... Well, there's also the way more uncharitable reading where Muu killed herself so people also pitied her instead of just hating her for killing Rei, but that's a bit too dark and in bad faith for my tastes. It is there, though.

So, yeah, Muu may be dead too. And she brings with her an interesting implication; the prisoners may not have clear memories of the events leading up to their death. So, even if some of them committed suicide, it's possible they simply don't remember ever taking the decision to do so, explaining their behavior in the prison.

And it also could explain away... one apparent contradiction. One which exists outside of this theory, but that this theory could explain.

Amane and the Voice Reveal Trailers

As most of you know, the Voice Reveal trailers for all these characters contain certain distorted phrases which in general seem closely linked to their murder. And as pointed out by blueepink07 in this post, it seems the First Trial Voice Reveals are things the prisoners said after their murder, while the Second Trial ones are showing a point before their murder. Check out Kazui's, for example.

(T1) "I'm so dumb... Why did I have to dream?"

(T2) "Hinako, I love you more than anything."

There's also Muu's, since I've already brought it up before.

(T1) "Fufufu... It's your fault... for doing horrible things to me."

(T2) "Hey..why don't you listen to me...? I'm telling you... Hey...HEY, I'M TALKING TO YOU"

The second being right before she killed Rei.

That works well enough for all the prisoners... except Amane.

(T1) "Ahh! I'm so sorry...! I'm sorry...! I'm sorry for breaking the rules!"

(T2) "Father is a very praiseworthy person. Once [my/his] virtue increases, he'll come back home, right? It's a little lonely, but I'm fine!"

In theory, Amane would have been punished before her murder, as we see happen after she heals the cat in the taser scene. Meanwhile, if she's lonely without her father, it could perhaps be because her mother is dead after Things Happened (yes I'm going with Mother!Victim theory on this one).

But that's not the case. Following the pattern, the line about her father coming home at some point is before her murder, and apparently, she was punished for breaking some kind of rule after her murder. The implication here, horrid as it is, could be that her father returned home after she killed her mother and punished her for doing so.

Thankfully, this is impossible. After all:

(T1) Q18: Do you regret your "murder"?

A: No. It was a natural obligation.

(T2) Q3: State the name of your victim.

A: There is no victim. Only the punished.

(Taking some liberties on the translation of Trial 2 since the questions are still coming out as I write this)

So Amane genuinely believes she was following her cult's principles to a T when she killed her mom. As much as that likely isn't the case (long story), if she had gotten punished for killing her mom, then she wouldn't think like this. If she had been punished for it, she wouldn't think her murder was a "natural obligation", but rather a mistake on her part.

What this implies is that Amane doesn't remember being punished by her father.

...

Amane... doesn't remember...

Fuck.

Yeah, remember when I said it was possible the prisoners don't have clear memories of the events leading up to their death? Going by the "T1 after - T2 before" logic the Voice Reveals seem to follow, we can infer Amane was likely punished for killing her mother, but we also know she can't remember it happening, otherwise she would regret it. And based on what we learnt from Muu, we do have a way to explain how that could happen. If Amane died while receiving the punishment the T1 Voice Reveal alludes to, she wouldn't have a clear memory of it.

And the thing is, it does seem likely Amane received this punishment. Think about it. Interrogation questions are one thing, since the creators don't fully control them, but why mention her father would possibly return home in the Voice Reveal trailer? Unless he did. Hell, you could argue we might know the exact moment he returned. Amane does look at the entrance of her apartment at the end of Purge March, though that could simply be for dramatic effect rather than being a literal thing which happened.

But there's more. Because if her father returned home, we might actually have an answer for another one of the mysteries surrounding Amane's situation. The Undercover prisoner card.

The image on her card seems to show a bathroom. It is widely assumed the images on these cards are the location the murders happened in, but to my knowledge, this isn't 100% confirmed. However, this creates a small issue with Amane. Just looking at the murder shot in Purge March is enough to confirm that.

I made a more detailed theory on her murder on this post, diagrams included (scroll to the bottom if you're only interested on the murder), but for now, there are two things to note here. One, there's a trail of water which seems to come out of the door with the light on, as the puddles are bigger the closer they get to it, implying that room is the bathroom. And two, the room the murder actually happened in seems to have a window/door behind a curtain, which isn't what Amane's bathroom looks like.

Adittionally, there isn't any blood outside of the murder room, implying the victim's body wasn't dragged there.

All this seems to imply Amane's victim didn't die in the bathroom, which is sorta a problem considering the previously mentioned commonly accepted theory. But this idea that Amane may have died while being punished, perhaps while being drowned as we know that's one of the accepted methods of punishment in her cult, brings up a different possibility.

What if the images in the prisoner cards aren't showing murder location? What if they show the last place the prisoner was seen in, the place they died?

Kotoko, Mikoto, and the Prisoner Cards

So, first, is there any indication either of these might be dead? For Mikoto, not really. Sure, there's the whole Death card at the end of MeMe thing, but that doesn't have to be taken so literally.

Kotoko has a very little potential hint in the fact she's shown alongside a wolf at the start of HARROW, but by the end the wolf is by itself. If the wolf represents a potential partner (long story), then maybe Kotoko died?

Though you can easily argue the wolf is slightly different and thus is meant to just represent Kotoko.

However, the reason I'm bringing them into this is because their prisoner cards are completely nonsensical under "murder location" theory for the images shown. Let's start with Kotoko.

It shows an alleyway, which at first seems like it makes sense. We do see her attacking a man in an alleyway. However, after that happens, one of the pieces of background text says this:

◆ A wanted thief was assaulted by an unknown assailant Early yesterday morning, a nearby shop employee reported hearing screaming and seeing a man lying on the ground. According to the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department, the man had lost consciousness after being beaten on his face, stomach, and other areas, and was taken to the hospital. The police are currently trying to identify the suspect. [...] According to previous investigations, the male victim was wanted throughout Tokyo for theft and assault charges and was identified as the suspect, Mikio Oshii.

(Translation by Maristelina)

Mikio Oshii is the name of the man Kotoko assaulted in the alleyway. It seems odd to me that we would learn he was taken to the hospital if he later died in it somehow, especially because Kotoko didn't want to kill him. We can clearly see this because of a crucial difference between her attack on him and her attack on the serial killer who likely is her victim.

She covers her face while attacking Oshii, because she doesn't want to be recognized. She is committing assault, after all. However, that only matters if she's planning to keep him alive. Conversely, she doesn't cover her face while attacking the serial killer, because she knows he won't be a witness. She went into that warehouse planning to kill.

Of course, she could have accidentally done too much damage, but the issue there is that she would probably express some remorse in that case. She doesn't, and the fact she only ever talks about one victim-

[TASK (T1 VD)] I did kill someone. [...] I don't have a single regret.

-it really seems like Oshii was able to survive her attack.

That creates an issue with her prisoner card. It shows an alleyway, but her only victim died in a warehouse. As confusing as that sequence is, he did die in the warehouse.

You know when we do see an alleyway again, though?

But she's not wearing her face covering. And if this was the alley with the one sign about a car accident that shows up over and over in HARROW, I'd imagine we'd see the sign, even if it was obscured in some way. So once again, a silhouette shot which seems to have nothing to do with her murder or her general situation.

So, is it possible she died in this alleyway? That's the only other reason I can imagine why it'd show up in her prisoner card, so. As for what exactly happened, I imagine she may have been murdered at the whim of her victim's father?

Shocking revelation: The heinous criminal behind the crime is the privileged son of a high-ranking official!

(Article referring to Kotoko's victim)

So, she got found out and immediately assassinated? It's a bit out there, but it would explain both her prisoner card and her attitude in the prison.

And then there's Mikoto.

As you can see, his card shows a street. The issue with Mikoto is one of format. The cards only ever show one location, but we know Mikoto has at least two victims.

[Text: To the right, the Subway Murder, which clearly has a ceiling. The murderer has blood on his right cheek, his left cheek is hidden. There's also the bathhtub scene, where the right cheek is hidden, but the left cheek has blood already trailing off, which doesn't quite fit what we see in the other murder if you think about the bath chronologically.

To the left, a murder out in the street, with an open sky. The murderer has blood on their left cheek, but not on their right. This is seen in both the crime and the shower scene]

So yeah, at least two. You could argue the bathtub murder is actually a third one, which... huh. Two things that absolutely exist and a Secret Third Thing, the existance of which is disputed? Trikoto vibes.

Point is, Mikoto has two different murder locations at least. The street, yes, but also the subway. This creates a problem with the "images in the prisoner cards are murder locations" idea, because it only shows one. You could try to gymnastics your way out of this by saying maybe Hostkoto committed the street murder while Orekoto killed the other victim(s), and because only Hostkoto is considered a prisoner by Milgram, only his murder is shown? But I feel that raises more questions than it answers.

Instead, if we assume the images to be death locations, the ambiguity disappears, because Mikoto as a system can only have one death location. The issue is you have to explain how Mikoto died in the middle of the street, which is a bit difficult.

The best guess I can give is related to the subway victim. It's been pointed out before that guy looks a lot like a stereotypical Japanese delinquent, which could imply he was part of a gang. If that's the case, it's possible the killer angered the wrong people by killing him, similar to Kotoko, and thus was later murdered himself. We know that street isn't very safe, on account of one of the alters getting away with murder there. It's a pretty large stretch, and has like zero evidence, but it's physically possible at least.

Let's take a quick look at the other prisoners and see if their images can also be explained by the "death image" theory.

We know Muu would share a death location with her victim if she really committed suicide as the theory states, so nothing weird there. Haruka's a bit more awkward, because it shows the forest he very likely killed the girl in, but I'm not entirely sure if the forests near Nagaoka has bodies of water deep enough to drown oneself. There is the Shinano river, which has... trees, around it.

This was taken from Google Street View in Nagaoka. Again, not sure how deep it is, but assuming it's deep enough to drown, it could work if you ignore the trees don't look too much like the ones irl. Maybe Haruka threw himself off the bridge?

Alternatively, Nagaoka borders the sea, and it seems like there's forest almost all the way up to it. So maybe that could work? Unsure.

Worst comes to worst, we can maybe change it to saying Haruka didn't drown himself, but killed himself in some other way in the forest. Point is, I think Haruka's isn't too big of an issue.

Fuuta, Mahiru and Kazui don't have a lot of evidence towards what the hell would have happened, but the best assumption I can make is they all committed suicide because of guilt. Fuuta in his room, Mahiru in the suicide forest (likely also where her boyfriend committed suicide), and Kazui by jumping off a building like Hinako. As for their evidence...

>Fuuta burns at the end of Backdraft, which is the same thing that happens to Killcheroy, so you could argue that's meant to show he's dying. It's not great, it absolutely is just meant to be metaphorical most likely, but it is there.

Additionally, he's also an outlier for the "muder location image" theory, since what one would consider his "murder location" is very ambiguous. Is it his room, where he sent online hate from? Is it Killcheroy's room, where she assumedly died? Wouldn't it be the front of Killcheroy's house, where Fuuta took the picture to dox her? Again, death location is less ambiguous.

Fuuta's attitude during Trial 1 could be seen as a bit weird if he was suicidal, but I'm not sure we can comfortably say that with the limited information we have.

>Mahiru in I Love You goes to sleep after seeing her boyfriend dead, which could be read as her committing suicide. You know, if you're insane like me.

Especially given this question from Trial 1:

(T1) Q20: What do you think about smoking?

M: I've never smoked before, but I might copy him if who I love smokes.

That, alongside a lot of the bg text from TIHTBILWY, implies Mahiru likes the idea of copying her lover. Not the greatest quality to have when your lover commits suicide.

>Kazui has this:

Where the smoke of his cigarette turns into a noose. Of course, that's meant to represent self-destruction in general, but it could also be taken more literally. He... doesn't have much else.

Thus, everyone else vaguely fits the idea of "death image"... except him.

Our favorite headache inducing doctor strikes again! His card shows a hospital room, which is a very strange death location, but perfectly fits his murders. You could argue he runs into the same issue as Mikoto, but it's actually possible Shidou just killed all his victims in the same room, so.

Yeah, Shidou's probably the biggest counterargument for this theory. Because while it's possible he died in a hospital, there is zero evidence for it, beyond the image itself. Hell, neither Throw Down or Triage ever seems to imply he died in the first place, which is an issue. This theory's already heavily dependant on the extremely flawed "you can't disprove it" argument, but at least most of the other ones have some kind of logical progression which gets you to how they died.

So, to complete the theory, we have to make the pretty big jump that Shidou died inside a hospital room, without knowing how that happened.

... Wait, inside the room?

Wait wait wait, show me Fuuta's and Amane's again.

Hmmm... 0308... hmmmm... 0308... I totally didn't just do this to put the two together... hm...

Yeah, same thing. They both show the inside of a room. Which, along with Shidou's, shows that these images can show the inside of buildings, right?

But, then... why is Yuno's outside?

That very clearly isn't the inside of a building. But this generates a problem for the "murder location image" theory, because Yuno's "murder" was abortion. Even if it wasn't done professionally, she would have still done it inside, presumably. This creates an inconsistency with Fuuta, Amane and Shidou. If their murder locations are shown from inside, why is Yuno different?

However, this inconsistency disappears if we assume the images to be death locations. I previously established if Yuno died, she likely committed suicide by jumping off a staircase, which does vaguely fit this image. It's similar to Kazui's in that way.

Now, I don't want to get too ahead of myself here. Murder location is still absolutely the more straightforward answer, but it does come with its issues. As stated, Fuuta's image would face some ambiguity, Mikoto's would face extreme ambiguity, Amane's seems to contradict the evidence we're shown in Purge March, Yuno's is wildly inconsistent with the other images, and Kotoko's is straight up nonsensical.

Meanwhile, death locations physically work with all the cases, even if Shidou's case is extremely weird, but it requires huge assumptions and stretches. It relies heavily on how impossible it is to disprove, which is not a good sign. Russell's Teapot, and all that.

Summary of the Theory

>Everyone in Milgram is dead, and their prisoner cards in Undercover show the place where they died.

>Prisoner's memories of the events leading up to their deaths are extremely fuzzy, explaining why only Yuno seems to even suspect it.

+Haruka: Committed suicide by drowning himself, possibly in the Shinano river or the sea. [Most likely to be dead]

+Yuno: Committed suicide by jumping off the staircase we see her standing in on her Undercover silhouette shot. [Most likely to be dead]

+Fuuta: Committed suicide in his room out of guilt. [Very little evidence]

+Muu: Murder-suicide, she committed suicide after killing Rei. [A bit more evidence than others]

+Shidou: Died in a hospital room [???]

+Mahiru: "Copied" her boyfriend by killing herself in the suicide forest. [Very little evidence]

+Kazui: Jumped off a building, like Hinako. [Very little evidence]

+Amane: Drowned by her father as "punishment" for her murder. [Unfortunately, sorta likely]

+Mikoto: Murdered by one of the members of Subway Victim's gang. [Sort of filling in the blanks here]

+Kotoko: Murdered at the order of her victim's father. [Very little evidence]

Conclusion

Do I believe this theory? Honestly, I don't know. It makes a few too many assumptions for me to fully believe it, but I do think it's a decent possibility, so I wanted to share it with you all. In any case, that's all I have to say for now. If you have any thoughts about any of this, feel free to share! Also I didn't even touch on Es but you can try to fit them in somehow if you feel like it.

Anyways, if you made it this far, you deserve a hug, this post was depressing. Take care!

#milgram #milgram project #milgram theory #fuuta kajiyama #amane momose #mikoto kayano #shidou kirisaki #haruka sakurai #yuno kashiki #muu kusunoki #mahiru shiina #kazui mukuhara #kotoko yuzuhira

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charcubed · 11 months

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Disneyland's Rogers: The Musical, propaganda that turns Steve Rogers into more myth than man, and revisionist history (possibly) to a purpose

Any of my thoughts in this post could just be me reading too far into things. I'm very aware of that, and please know that this post exists just because this sort of thing is fun for me! This is a thought exercise where we propose "What if we live in a world where the MCU is actually doing a cool and interesting thing as a longcon?" If you have anger at Marvel, that's valid and relatable, but please don't get angry at me or imply I'm an MCU stan who doesn't think critically about the mouse. Thanks!

Breaking news: I'm back on my bullshit!

A quick personal recap: I infamously hated Avengers: Endgame for a long list of reasons (and I even rewrote the movie). One of those reasons is that I've always taken issue with Steve's ending. But in the years since then, and as the MCU's phase 4 has evolved, my frustration at Steve's "ending" has turned into an ongoing and legitimate theory that the MCU could be slowly leading into a loosely adapted Secret Empire plot line. I know we've all been joking about Steve being trapped or about an imposter Steve since 2019, but uhhh, it's kind of not a joke to me anymore? It feels weirdly plausible at this point and so I enjoy discussing the potential.

You can find a full elaboration on that here, where I wrote out my "Steve was snatched by HYDRA" theory in 2021.

In that post, one of the things I mentioned at the time was Rogers: The Musical being in the Hawkeye trailer.

[The musical's] very existence is an example of how in-universe the stories of the lives of the heroes are being commodified, especially (in terms of how they’re framing it) for Steve’s. The heroes are no longer seen as people, if they ever were. They are, as Kate Bishop says to Clint in a recently released clip, more about “branding.” Sam Wilson will be redefining the shield moving forward in a Cap context, but simultaneously, the world is still enamored by Steve Rogers as a symbol in his own right. And that is ripe for manipulation as a Trojan horse to control public opinion… whether in the context of things like this by themselves (is the musical portraying Steve accurately, or is it painting an inaccurate picture of him the world accepts as fact?) or in future (is this propaganda that makes the public see Steve a certain way and continue to love him, to set up a fake or brainwashed Steve coming on the scene later?).

Now a form of the musical exists in full, at Disneyland and all over Youtube. Considering some of its baffling content – which I will break down below – this perspective seems even more strongly worth considering.

I have two main reasons for why I'm defending examining this musical so closely:

1. It is (arguably) an in-universe piece of media that has bearing on the MCU canon. It isn't like any other typical Disneyland attraction; its very existence is meta and it was in canon first. Obviously it's seen in Hawkeye, but there are also posters for it in several different phase 4 properties. It's lurking in the background indefinitely. So what can this musical tell us about what the wider public within the MCU is being told about the life story of Steve Rogers?

2. This Secret Empire graphic – which is animated in the center of the stage of a prolonged period of time – feels like a literal sign to pay attention.

Granted, this is obviously still ancillary material. 99% of the MCU audience will never see this musical, whether in person or on YouTube. But just because it isn't a vital piece doesn't mean it's automatically an entirely irrelevant piece.

They've given me an inch with that sign and I'm taking a mile.

So if you're interested, please join me on this journey :)

For the record, let me just say that I salute the creative team behind this show. It's pretty fun and the songs are catchy, the sets and costuming are cool, and the cast is overall very talented.

It's also fucking maddening. LMAO.

Why? Firstly, because of the seemingly deliberate ahistorical inaccuracies. We all know Ant-Man is wrongly shown in the Battle of New York, which originally "came from [the Hawkeye showrunner] and Marvel, as something to further aggravate Hawkeye as he watched the show, and also as a comment on how movies and articles and people always get something wrong." It seems like they expanded those meta nods, but most inaccuracies are now in service of glorifying Steve and Peggy's "love story." Yes, romance objectively makes for good theater; but again, I feel that this is worth examining considering the full context.

And secondly, Steve's ending is framed as an offer presented to him, convincing him it's the happy ending he deserves because he's tired. In my mind, these two big elements go together, and I'll walk you through the details of what happens in the musical before I tie the thought threads back around into some theorizing.

For your reference, here's a list of the main songs and story beats:

• "U-S-Opening Night" - the Starkettes (who are basically a Greek chorus) frame the show's story, and then it turns into an ensemble that loosely takes place at the Stark Expo. • "I Want You" – Steve's "I want" song about trying to enlist in the army. • "Star-Spangled Man With A Plan" – Steve performing on the USO tour obviously, and then there's a reprise with an added voiceover that (very briefly) covers the Howling Commandos' rescue + the war via comic book imagery. • "What You Missed" – Fury and the Starkettes tell Steve some pop culture things he missed while he was frozen, + they tell him about the Avengers. Then Fury goes down a list of other hero characters, including the Guardians? Doctor Strange? Wanda?? It plays loose and fast with time, because many non-2012 characters are bafflingly mentioned in this nonlinear Avengers list – including the Winter Soldier (???). • "Save the City" – this is the song seen in Hawkeye, with the civilians + the Avengers all involved, but it's slightly different here and expanded to also reference other battles. • "End of the Line" – Old Steve presents main Steve with the time stone as an opportunity for his happy ending, and they reflect on things together. (Yes, this is insane.) • "Just One Dance" – Steve and Peggy reunite and sing about their love. • And then there's basically a reprise of "Save the City," with the Starkettes and the whole cast closing the finale out.

Right out of the gate, let's address this: the main reason you're going to see some fans pissed about this musical is not only that Steve and Peggy's ~epic romance~ is made a pillar of the story... but also that Bucky's importance/involvement in Steve's life is minimized as much as possible.

And they took Bucky-related elements from canon and made them center more around Peggy instead.

• For some weird reason, Peggy is in the Stark Expo scene. When a soldier is hitting on the Starkettes ("hey sweetheart, I wanna dance!"), Steve tells the soldier to show the ladies some respect. The soldier grabs Steve and throws him down, and then Peggy swoops in to yell "Pick on someone your own size!" and punches the guy before walking away. So she's given Bucky's TFA line verbatim, and she is given the role he had of saving Steve from bullies. There is blatantly no reason they couldn't have had Bucky still serve that function and be truer to "history," because he briefly enters this scene in uniform less than a minute later to announce he's shipping out to the 107th – and then he spins off with a date on his arm. (We don't see Bucky on stage again until the full cast comes out for the finale!)

• After the Star-Spangled Man show, Peggy rushes in to talk to Steve. Steve is excited about his USO performance (???) but she urgently tells him to listen as she says that the 107th has been captured. Peggy apparently knows it's Bucky's division, and she knows Steve is going to go, so she tells him that she's already arranged transport for him. This is a subtle twist from the truth of how it went down in TFA, in which Steve recognized 107 as the number of Bucky's division, and his dogged determination inspired Peggy to relent and help his rescue mission. Here, Peggy is given a stronger role in the Cap origin story. And before Steve rushes off, Peggy sings a short untitled ballad hoping for their dance, so Steve pauses before he leaves to ask her to go on a date with her when he returns. • The most egregious Bucky-to-Peggy change of all is the song "End of the Line," in which the infamous Steve and Bucky line/promise (that broke Bucky's brainwashing...) is re-contextualized to be about ???? Peggy waiting for Steve in the past??? Old Man Steve and regular Steve sing it together. But we'll go back to that in a minute.

Again, I get it, yeah? It's for theater. Whatever. But in reality, the obvious logical truth is that Peggy is centered (to the point of taking elements from Bucky's story, and in turn Bucky is downplayed) because they needed to convince the audience that Steve going back in time to be with her makes sense. Steve's time travel ending had to be justified, so the Peggy and Steve "love story" had to be a pillar in this with everything else being given lesser weight.

And the inherent selfishness of him doing something as big as going back in time also had to be justified... which is why they do their best to convince you Steve fought so much he deserved it.

Let me elaborate on that by describing the lead-up to the "End of the Line" song.

So, right before "End of the Line" is "Save the City" – which includes Steve belting "I can do this all day!" repeatedly, of course. It's the 2012 Battle of New York as the Avengers come together to win.

As they begin to disperse, the song then transitions to a voiceover alert mentioning Sokovia being under attack by artificial intelligence (a.k.a. Age of Ultron). The Avengers group rushes back to center stage to say "Save the city! Help us win!" together for battle again.

And then things get fucking weird.

Because the next voiceover threat is "Washington DC. Attack: the Winter Soldier." This is not accurate to the order of events! The Winter Soldier events were before Age of Ultron; the public of the MCU would also know this.

And suddenly on stage Steve is now in the center while everyone else gestures to him. Instead of singing with him, they're telling him "Save the city! Help us win!"

Then, another voiceover: "Wakanda, under attack" (Infinity War) and again, Steve is centered while everyone else points to him. The ensemble says, "Save the city, help us win! Save us all from the state we're in! Got to hear you, got to hear you, got to hear you say..." as Steve is buckling to his knees under their pointing. And as the lights go down to one spotlight on him and everyone else leaves, he says "I can do this all day" one last time, but now it's subdued.

The implication is that Steve has been fighting and fighting, people leave him or he loses them, and he's tired.

And then fucking Old Man Steve arrives.

He says "On your left," because yes, they gave him Sam Wilson's line. BATSHIT.

So now there's two Steves on stage! There has been no mention of Thanos or infinity stones or anything up to this point! (I can only assume that's because in the MCU universe no one would want to be reminded of the trauma of "the Blip" – though it's pretty wild that they're allowed to know about magical time travel?)

Steve is baffled by Old Man Steve's arrival. I, too, was baffled by Old Man Steve's arrival.

As Steve questions how this is possible, Old Man Steve shows him the time stone from his pocket – and only the time stone – which Steve recognizes.

OLD MAN: "You've got to remember where you've been to know where you're going." STEVE: "Where am I going?" OLD MAN: "A date with destiny." STEVE: “Destiny. So we’re the hero till the end?” OLD MAN: “That’s the thing about endings, Steven. They can be rewritten.”

Lmao???????

Steve starts singing about how he hopes this means they "win" and calls himself a "tired hero."

STEVE: "But sometimes I wonder, who will save the savior? Can we really do this all day? So here I am, now and also then. Just a man, looking back at where he's been." OLD MAN: "The road is rough but wounds are healed by a thing called time. You can't forget what's waiting at the end of the line."

Me, watching this: the fact that he says this out of the blue makes absolutely no sense.

There's a bit more singing, including "end of the line" repetition, and then Old Man Steve pulls out the time stone to essentially show visions of... I don't fucking know. Past, present, and future?

That's pre-serum Steve, Steve with Mjolnir, and Sam Wilson as the new Cap. This is the only reference to Sam in the whole thing.

More singing, and then: Peggy's silhouette.

OLD MAN: "Can't forget who's waiting..." STEVE: "I can't forget who's waiting..." BOTH: "Don't forget who's waiting..." STEVE: "At the end of the line."

At this point I'm like, what in the hell?

Did Old Man Steve just brainwash normal Steve into thinking "end of the line" is now about Peggy? Because uhhhh, sorry, that's what it feels like!

Then Steve uses the stone to go back in time, reunites with Peggy, etc. etc. finale.

It's truly some crazy shit.

[drags hands down face]

Look... there's a lot to unpack here, and there's a lot that gets me about it. I know this is dramatized for the stage! I KNOW! But the fact that Old Man Steve shows up to convince Steve he should go back in time makes me want to gnaw on furniture.

Another person essentially uses the lure of a life with Peggy to tempt Steve into doing this, dramatized or not. That is how it's framed.

It's a hell of a way to frame it, and it makes Steve's ending stand in even starker contrast to so many other things in phase 4. Desperately trying to go backwards when you shouldn't or to bring back a lost lover is an evil temptation, and it results in a trap or negative cosmic consequences for basically all of the other characters in the MCU.

• In Shang-Chi, Wenwu is tempted by the Soul Eaters beyond the Dark Gate. They use the voice of his deceased wife to convince him to set them free. • In "What If" episode 4, Doctor Strange becomes evil in a desperate bid to save Christine and he destroys his universe. Along the way, he tries to tempt/trap the good Strange who's fighting him by using visions of Christine, but good Strange knows she isn't real. • Wanda's grief and desire to bring back Vision leads to – well, you know. • In No Way Home, Peter trying to undo things is what causes the multiverse problems.

And the fact that they frame it as Steve being tired, so basically the argument is he deserves that time travel ending (just like MCU fans who defend Endgame say in real life)... Well.

There's no way to make it hold up, especially because in "What If" they explicitly subverted that and had Captain Carter not go back in time despite how she felt she'd "earned" it.

Lastly, in this musical as Steve decides to pursue time travel as his course of action, he basically has the meaning or memory of "end of the line" rewritten for him. I refuse to not think that is some nefarious shit. Yes, it's not out of the realm of possibility that it's just some general Disney erasing Steve and Bucky nonsense.

But... this is on another level to me. I do think that it's a blatant choice that they had to be aware even general MCU fans would call bullshit on. Everyone knows it's inaccurate. "End of the line" is embedded in pop culture consciousness as being connected to Bucky. It just is! Surely that means it's not a stretch to theorize it could be deliberate meta commentary.

How, in the MCU world, would the in-universe playwrights even know the phrase "end of the line"? How the fuck would it be accidentally applied to Steve and Peggy? Not to sound like a crazy person, but who the fuck was rooting around in Steve and/or Bucky's personal business or their brains in order to obtain that knowledge and then remix it, and why? Neither of them would flippantly mention it in the public eye or interviews ever. So where did its inclusion come from?

And in the finale ensemble, this is Bucky's line when he comes out on stage and salutes + points to Steve: "Don't forget who's waiting..." And Old Man Steve completes it with "...at the end of the line."

What on God's green earth am I meant to do with THAT?

Smh.

The vibes are fucked, folks.

The MCU public wouldn't know enough to say the vibes are fucked. The MCU public wouldn't know the origin of "end of the line" as a phrase. But us? The ones who know the "true story" via the movies? We can call bullshit.

Whether the creative team behind this musical did every aspect of this consciously or not, in my opinion the fact that they had to tweak canon "history" to A) make Peggy's involvement in Steve's life more central and B) emphasize Steve as a tired hero all works as commentary on and almost a condemnation of Endgame's frustrating ending. In a way, it's also what Endgame did with the compass and 1973 moment with Peggy as well.

Steve's ending had to be convincing.

It's theater.

And so, maybe the same is true for the in-narrative perspective of this musical in the context of the MCU world. What purpose would it serve to tell the MCU public a feel-good narrative about how all Steve Rogers wanted was to no longer be a tragic man out of time and get to make a life with his best girl? To frame it as being about how he fought so hard for years and so he earned a happy ending? To minimize and nearly erase Bucky's importance in his life?

Who would want to do that sort of propaganda, and why?

The MCU civilians are given this happy explanation and maybe don't widely question it. Who cares about the details or logistics if it makes a good story, I guess. It's a stretch, but maybe they mostly applaud it. Maybe they're happy for "America's favorite son" (not unlike people who uncritically liked Endgame). In a way, it's even a rehabilitation of his image (after the Accords) like putting the shield on the Statue of Liberty. And maybe they'd even be ready and waiting to applaud if Steve ever made a dramatically selfless and de-aged return to the spotlight or a position of authority.

But mostly, the public is being conditioned to not know or to forget that anyone else like Bucky Barnes or Sam Wilson would possibly know Steve Rogers the person well enough in the modern day to call bullshit on any of this – or on his hypothetical miraculous future return.

So. Sure, it's probably nothing.

But what if it's not?

-------

UPDATE: @faeriecap added to this post with some incredible information and further behind-the-scenes context about the MCU/Marvel stuff at Disney parks! Check it out here :)

#rogers the musical #rogers: the musical #steve rogers #captain america #captain america meta #marvel meta #imposter steve #anti-endgame #peggy carter #stevebucky #mcu #marvel #stucky #anti-endgame steve #char writes things #me: is anyone else going to write about this being propaganda? no? fine I'll do it myself #I should not be posting it after midnight but I don't want to be tempted to fucking look at it again tomorrow. be gone you monster

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coraniaid · 16 days

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Top five btvs headcannons?

Hmm. Lots of options to choose from, but let's go with:

Of all the deaths we see on the show that the characters are weirdly blase about and never talk about again (which is most of them) the one I feel should matter most is Kendra's. The writers very obviously don't care about Kendra at all (in a way that makes me pretty angry if I think about it for long) but, at the same, the only way I can reconcile my idea of Who Buffy Is As A Person with the events of the post-Becoming seasons is to try to persuade myself that Buffy is thinking about Kendra a lot of the time, and that this meaningfully affects her relationship with Faith in Season 3 (and, for that matter, with Dawn in Season 5 and the Potentials in Season 7 too). Because, yes, Faith represents a lot of Buffy's own supressed thoughts and desires, and yes, there are lots of parallels in Season 3 between Faith and Angel. But the very fact Faith exists as a Slayer at all should be enough to remind Buffy of the Slayer who was called after her and died before her. How could that not bleed into her relationship with Faith as a person? How can Buffy not look at Faith and be constantly thinking of the Slayer she failed to save? (According to the show's writers, the answer is: very, very easily.[1])

Sort of a meta-headcanon (a headcanon schema?), but: as far as possible, I like to believe that the Buffy characters who are meant to be friends might actually talk to each other sometimes. And when we don't see various personal conflicts get resolved on screen, yet everything seems back to normal later (especially between seasons), I tend to assume they just talked things through a bit off-camera. Probably Buffy and Xander had a conversation after Dead Man's Party which involved him offering a grovelling apology, which is why they're still on speaking terms later that season. Probably Joyce and Buffy actually talked a bit about her being the Slayer before Faith, Hope & Trick, so that Joyce's claim to have "tried to march in the Slayer Pride Parade isn't as absurd as it seems to be on the face of it". Probably Giles and Buffy talked about the Cruciamentum a bit after Helpless, which is why she's forgiven him by the time the next episode starts and she never brings his role up in it again. In particular, this is why I kind of hate the reveal in Season 7's Selfless that Xander never admitted to his Lie in Becoming, and that Buffy just spent the last five years thinking Willow decided to try to cast the spell to restore Angel's soul again without asking Buffy's permission or giving her any warning she was about to try it beyond "kick his ass".

There really isn't any evidence for it in canon and I suspect it's ultimately purely the invention of one of the early 2000s Fuffy writers, but I really like the popular fanfiction conceit that there is some sort of mystical connection between Slayers which (in a way that varies a little depending on the writer) gives them some additional awareness of the other Slayer's presence or emotional state. Not just because I'm enough of a sap to think that that's kind of romantic (although I am and I do), but because it's a nice way to explain away some slightly contrived bits of plotting in the show (all three Slayers have a way of finding each other very quickly when the plot requires it). In the same spirit, though with perhaps a little more evidence in canon, I like the idea that Buffy and Faith's shared dreams don't just happen when we see them, but have basically been going on ever since Faith arrived in Sunnydale (or at least since Faith's coma). Also, relatedly, I still like this headcanon I posted last month.

Sort of an anti-headcanon in some ways, but I refuse to accept that Buffy's memory of trying to tell her parents about vampires back in LA -- and being briefly institutionalized as a result -- (which was revealed/retconned in Season 6's Normal Again) is real. I think that (whatever the show claims) it had to have been a false memory implanted by the same demon that was giving her visions of still being there. Say what you like about whether or not the Joyce we see on the show was a good parent, but this is just blatant character assassination of the worst sort. It completely changes how we have to see Buffy's relationship with her mother and makes several scenes and outright plot points absurd (even if Joyce is the sort of monster who could forget about having her doctor locked up, even after learning that actually Buffy was always telling the truth, why would a Buffy who had been through that still keep a diary in the house she shares with her mother where she talked about the supernatural or prominently put up crucifixes in her house or make jokes about 'saving the world from vampires' when her mother asked her what she was thinking? why would she care about her mother's opinion of her at all? why would she wait until Season 2 to run away from home, and why would she ever come back?). Taken seriously, this just totally undermines a major part of Buffy's character and one of the most important relationships in her life. And for what? A stupid "maybe this is all a dream?" ending to the episode that means nothing and never goes anywhere. No, fuck that. Didn't happen and I simply refuse to believe it did. (I also strongly dislike the idea that it's a false memory caused by Dawn's presence; Dawn doesn't deserve to be blamed for that and her existence isn't meant to have had that big of an impact on the world.)

[1] Actually if I'm being totally honest I suspect that if you polled most of the show's writers with this question the answer you'd get back would be "who's Kendra?"

#btvs #thanks!#asks

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baiwu-jinji · 2 months

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i apologize in advance if this ask sounds kinda weird, but i'm kinda curious to hear your thoughts on how the narrative treats qi rong, mostly because i think interacting only with the eng version/fandom might take some context from his character. i've seen people complaining that some fans woobify him too much, others complaining that some people treat him as a pure hate-sink when he's more than that. while i do think he's a multi-layered character, i do sometimes get the feeling that mxtx did not go easy on him, with the revised version being even crazier than before (some even say he was given a bit of onesided incestuous subtext with xl, but i wonder if that interpretation isn't just the result of weirdly translated lines in eng). i think this might be because he strikes me as a meta personification of sorts for toxic fans who place their identity and self-worth on just one person they completely idolize, and when that person is shown to be imperfect they immediately turn against them, and we know mxtx has had experience with those kinds of people.

i do think he's largely meant to be seen as unsympathetic overall, though i think there's strong nuances with his character as well. since his childhood he always lacked something and never really had a well formed identity, his prince name being symbolic of his life. he projected himself onto xl in life, and he kept on absorving the worst traits of the people around his life without really understanding them in order to feel powerful and important, from the xianle nobles to the signature traits of the other calamities. he also strikes me as very... "little brother"-coded, in the sense that he keeps looking for any sort of recognition and seems unable to mature. even when he hates xl i think he still somewhat craves his attention, and qr only developed a bit when he was forced to let go of this role by accidentally becoming a father instead. i think it's also interesting that he started out a lot like his father, but ended up sharing the fate of his mother.

i do wonder how the cn fandom views him and if he's nearly as divisive as he is here. i'd also be pretty interested in seeing some meta about him from cn fans. again, it feels like some context is missing by not speaking the language the book was originally written in...

Hi! I think the narrative basically takes the same stance as Xie Lian in its attitude towards Qi Rong, which is the sort of "I can't love you but I don't want to hate you, the best I could give you is indifference". I agree that Qi Rong isn't meant to be lovable, but MXTX isn't dismissive of him as a character either - she devoted almost an entire chapter to Qi Rong's death, let him speak his mind, and gave him some form of closure.

Qi Rong having onesided incestuous subtext with XL (!!) in the revised version is...very interesting haha, I haven't read the revised version so I can't know (someone please tell me where to get the revised version ><). Although I want to speculate that even if there is some incestuous vibes, it's not truly sexual - it's probably libido directed the wrong way when you're lusting over someone else's identity, but not over that person per se. Qi Rong lusts over XL's identity in the sense that he wants to be XL - or rather he wants to be perfect, worshipped, all-powerful etc. (bit of digression, there's an underrated psychological thriller called Cracks starring Eva Green, if you watch it you'll know what I mean)

I don't have the impression that he's truly divisive in the Chinese fandom, but then I don't engage with the Chinese fandom that much so I could totally be wrong. And I don't think any context is missing for English readers either (except maybe the humour of QR's obscene language might be lost in translation?) because human nature is the same everywhere, and Qi Rong's distorted psyche is more a matter of human nature than cultural context.

As for Chinese fandom's view of QR, there's this great meta I translated and posted a few days ago, and I found some other opinion pieces about Qi Rong on Zhihu (Chinese equivalent of Reddit), as you'll see they're quite diverse.

A lot of Chinese readers say that what stands out most about Qi Rong is his comedic role in the story because his cursing and name-calling are really funny; a lot of people also mention being really touched by his self-sacrifice to save Guzi. I found this one post that has a similar view to yours, which is QR represents MXTX's toxic fans:

"I always felt it's the author admonishing her fans in an implicit way not to be as crazy as Qi Rong [...] My guess is that the author can't ask her fans outright not to act in this way because that would hurt people who support her but are immature, however she can't turn a blind eye to these people going around provoking more resentment, so she creates QR to remind her fans not to be like QR, or they'd appear as unlikable as QR to the public. But the author still feels symathy for thse fans, so she didn't depict their representation in the novel as totally incorrigible - QR retains some humanity and is a little adorable when he starts to care about people."

I also saw opinions about the narrative (or rather Xie Lian) not going easy on Qi Rong, like this one:

"Xie Lian is clearly a very good person but why is he so heartless to QR? He eventually treated QR as a joke and a burden, but QR was once a true follower of his. At first I thought XL was perfect and cares about everyone, but he never really cared for his cousin. When I read that XL felt neither joy nor sorrow when QR died saving Guzi, my heart chilled. If XL could forgive the masses who betrayed and reviled him, why can't he forgive his cousin who once followed him whole-heartedly?"

There're also people saying that Qi Rong's potential divisiveness is what makes him a great villain, like this post:

"What MXTX's well-received villains have in common is a tragic childhood and not being loved growing up, and they only have a soft spot for one person. Although these villains did horrible deeds and are unrepentant, they all reserve some kindness in their heart for the only person who's good to them. This contrast is striking and touching, yet most likely to cause controversy. Therefore, MXTX knows very clearly how to create a memorable villain, and I admire that."

Someone else says when they read about Qi Rong they "don't know whether to laugh or cry" (XL's signature emotion hehe). They add that "this is where MXTX is successful in writing a villain - you both hate and pity him; he's infuriating, but you don't really want to see him die either."

Another view is that since Qi Rong has no filter, he sometimes serves as the truth-telling voice. For example, when XL wanted to keep Lang Qianqiu in the dark about the truth of the Gilded Banquet Massacre, Qi Rong blurted out the truth.

There's also a question posted on Zhihu that asks why people like Qi Rong, and there're some interesting answers. There's one post that says "I find him attractive because he's depicted as alluringly ghostly in a lot of fan art like vampires in Twilight" haha

Another post says they like Qi Rong "because he's guilelessly wicked, while XL and Hua Cheng are hypocrites" emmmmm

Another one says they like Qi Rong because "being Xie Lian is exhausting, he's so wronged but he just endures it all, while Qi Rong just launches verbal assults whenever someone rubs him the wrong way, it's so cathartic. The most difficult thing in the world is to be a good person, because as soon as you do one thing wrong, everyone criticises you; but if you're a bad person, even if you did just one good thing, everyone praises you for it and shows you pity".

#qi rong #xie lian #tgcf

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not-poignant · 5 months

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Out of curiosity, when did the, 'fanfic doesn't need to adhere to canon, everything is valid and good, don't give concrit unless specifically asked for' attitude become the norm? Genuine question.

I was active in fandom back in the LJ days, when sporkings and comms viciously mocking Mary Sues were the norm, but then I sort fell out of fandom spaces for the past (checks notes) fifteen years holy shit. The current attitude seems diametrically opposed to what I remember fandom being like (kinda shitty, it was 'cool' to be an asshole back then), and I'm just curious as to when and how the shift happened. I mean, I assume it was a gradual thing, but is there anything in particular that stick out to you?

(Also, because tone doesn't convey very well through ask, and I don't want to leave you with a poor impression-- this is by no means a defence of the 2000s attitudes, nor an aspersion on the current ones. I'm genuinely only curious about the evolution from one to the other; I hope that comes across.)

Hi anon!

TL;DR because my response got LONG -> Anon this existed before Livejournal as an attitude, in fact modern fandom was literally born out of being not canon compliant (*waves aggressively to Spirk shippers*) and this existed on Livejorunal too and there have always been big pockets of fandom that really frowned on sporking even there, like that was not cool when I was on LJ, unless you were a certain age, or in certain spaces in fandom.

But also AO3 was its kind of final death knell re: making it cool to bully 13-16 yo writers (who were largely the victims of sporking) and killing dreams, which was born out of meta happening on LJ and in other places about like... not trying to make people miserable for writing a free fic out of the love in their heart that someone else didn't like or think was good enough.

Anyway, the longer version of this under the read more!

(For everyone else, welcome to some of the uglier aspects of 00s fandom!)

So there was actually criticism around all the stuff you mention 15-20 years ago as well. I was also on Livejournal during that time and there was a pretty big proportion of people in certain fandoms who recognised even then that like... setting up communities to mock say, Mary Sue writers, was actually a pretty weirdly cruel thing to do to people who were providing free labour and the literal only 'payment' they could get in a kind of energy exchange was people just not being complete dickheads to them.

So things were already changing, especially in many LJ communities and awards communities. There were a lot of big debates over whether concrit should be asked for, and a growing movement of authors who said they welcomed constructive criticism for example, instead of assuming it should automatically apply. There was also a lot of meta around the function of fanfiction and whether it should even be 'good' by published standards if the author was just doing it for themselves, and for fun (esp if they were just going to get punished for it by folks who were elitist, judgemental, grammar purists etc.)

Things really changed around the time of AO3 (2009-2010 - literally around 14~ years ago, you may have just missed the big change anon!), Strikethrough and the Dreamwidth exodus. There was a massive swing away from leaving concrit unless the author specifically asked for it, and fandom became a lot more generally able to recognise that a lot of labour goes into fanart and fanfiction and that paying with public criticism is shitty actually. Also people were just more able to recognise that like most fanfiction writers aren't trying to become professional writers and many don't want to be.

(I would actually say things changed around the time of fanfiction.net too - rude comments there were definitely noticed and could create some pretty forward 'hey why are you doing this on something you literally don't have to read' responses from fellow readers - idk what fic sites you were on. The small indie fic sites where you could often only comment via email for example, definitely drew a lot more critical attention than sites that tended to have public comments).

The 'fanfic doesn't need to adhere to canon' literally exists since the very first Spirk slash fic in modern fanfiction in the last few decades. Literally, as soon as you write Kirk/Spock, you're not adhering to canon. Our fanfiction 'ancestors' literally paved the way for a legacy which is about not adhering to canon in order to see the world/s and thing/s you want to see, be entertained by, by turned on by, or enjoy, from the very beginning. You may not have been in slash circles anon, but the foundation of queer same sex fanfic is in many ways the foundation of fandom. But yeah, this is literally where fanfiction started! As soon as you're shipping characters that aren't canon for fun (or for whatever reason), you're making it pretty clear that you want stories different to canon, and you have to change things to often keep those characters in-character.

So yeah! That's been there for decades. Idk what circles you were in on that front! While it was fairly common for a while to criticise characters for being OOC (Out of Character), imho, a lot of folks started to recognise that they literally weren't paying for what they were criticising, and they could just walk away and potentially not like...blast the fanfic. Some folks started to recognise more that people were writing with ESL, or were teenagers (some 40 yos in fandom realised they were mocking literal 15 year olds in their proto-podcasts and websites and realised actually that's just...mean? Really mean? Not the way to nurture new generations of fanfiction writers. Definitely in no way encouraging), or were writing for themselves, or writing for like one other person, or writing for fun, or writing for free, or writing for personal reasons etc.

'Don't Like Don't Read' wasn't just about political stuff, it was also about just walking away if you feel the urge to slam a fanfic in the comments.

I've been in fandom for around 2.5 decades anon, and there were so many spaces that were not actually as shitty or mean-spirited as the ones you were in? Or ones that at least had a lot of different thoughts etc. Like, sporking (mocking/bullying badfics and sometimes the folks who wrote them) was disapproved of by a lot of people in fandom even while sporking was at the height of its popularity (the Fanlore page goes into more detail about this). It might have just been the fandoms you were in, or the people you were hanging out with (and that might have been dependent on your age or just if you were around people who wanted to be 'cool' back then - in the same way that being an 'anti' is cool among certain crowds today. It's possible to spend years in certain crowds and never get an image of broader fandom for example - we can all end up in spaces like that! I know I have.)

When I started writing fanfiction (which no one will EVER find lmao), generally giving positive comments was normal. Constructive criticism was actually pretty rare and there were already fanfiction aggregate sites that generally disapproved of it in their Rules of Conduct. People were encouraging and polite. And this was around 20 years ago on Livejournal and private indie fanfiction websites.

I would actually say there was never exactly an evolution from 'one to the other' because like thousands of people in fandom already believed this and argued in defense of supporting fanfiction and transformative works via accepting that people are labouring for free and that not everyone wants to become a 'better writer' etc. - the meta was there on Livejournal in the 00s. There were communities where sporking was seen as hip/fun, and communities where it was literally banned or at the very least, super frowned upon.

There were meta fandom communities where sporking was the subject of discussion and you know eventually in a lot of those meta communities, that's where a lot of folks decided actually that calling out the fanfiction of 16 yos as 'cringe' or 'badly done' maybe said more about us as human beings and what we wanted fandom to be, than it did about the actual fanfic itself. By the time AO3 came around, people built it with this in mind.

To this day on AO3 it's mostly considered appropriate to say you want concrit in your author's notes, and to otherwise assume as a reader it's never welcome if it's unsolicited. That started during the LJ era. And it was talked about at great length. There's obviously going to be people who disagree! But for the most part I'm a big believer in compassion and 'not everyone is here for the same reason' and 'they literally gave this to us for free and it's meant to be fun' (like yourself! What we do/think/argue 10 years ago on LJ is sometimes different to what we do 10 years later lol, I used to be against trigger warnings pre-AO3! Times change a lot :D )

So yeah, this was definitely something that was around before you and I came to fandom, and it was something that continued to grow as an attitude during, until finally it kind of won out on AO3. But yeah fandom as we know it was born in people literally not being canon compliant to make some gay dreams come true (Spirk shippers bless them all), at a time when there was no representation.

Even in the earliest days of fandom where comments could only happen via email, one of the earliest phrases authors used were things like 'flames will be used to roast marshmallows.' For those reading who don't know, flames are hate comments, critical 'this fic is bad because' comments etc. Except you emailed them directly to the author, because there was no place for comments on a fic.

And this started because authors in part got death threats for writing gay stuff.

So you know, from the very beginning, authors in fanfic have by and large had a very low tolerance for criticism / hate over something they're doing for free and making no profit out of, when they're changing/altering the canon as they please to create representation (or hotness lmao), that is literally a labour of love in a world of very little representation. From there, things have just grown. The whole 'flames will not be tolerated' existed even before Livejournal did.

Honestly there are still people who love sporking and you could probably find groups and Discords dedicated to that even now (actually you literally can, there's a Dreamwidth group for it), it's kind of wild but it started to get cool again. Just like 90s clothing :D (Which is also wild because I can just take that crap out of my closet and wear it again).

But yeah it also sounds like you may have been in some pretty crappy pockets of fandom! When I was on LJ in the 00s I avoided those places and still got to experience fandom across multiple fandoms (mostly NCIS, Captive Prince, HP, Profiler, The X-Files and some others) and communities.

I was super active in some fandom communities and saw a lot of meta happening, and my view during the early and late 00s was that sporking was largely pretty frowned upon after a very brief (like 3-6 month) era where it was cool for only some folks, and then everyone (including some - but not all - of those folks) was like 'heyyyyyyy hang on a minute.' It was something that the bullies did, and enjoyed, and otherwise folks kind of stayed away from it, especially once they learned people were becoming too scared to write fics, which is the inevitable outcome of mocking/bullying folks and fics that have been made purely out of love for something.

Like, publicly making a spectacle out of what a 13 yo (they were often teens - and it's kind of sad how many 40 yo women were doing the sporking :/ ) wrote out of love, just for fun/clout was not considered cool by everyone even back then, because like, a lot of us saw that as killing new generations of fandom (some folks who sporked considered it a win if a fic or account got deleted, this is not based behaviour), not actually creating good writing, internalised misogyny (Mary Sue hatred and self insert hatred), etc. It's hard to explain because I do really think we were in different corners of fandom at the time, but I don't know anyone personally from my time on Livejournal who actually liked sporking as an idea or enjoyed it or enjoyed listening to it or reading articles mocking fic.

I knew about it from very lively 'is this okay' 'actually no it's not even if it's just for fun this is trying to hurt people and saying 'it's just the fic' is not going to be the bandaid a teenager needs to understand why older folks (generally) in fandom are mocking them for being new at a skill' discussions on LJ in meta fandom communities. So this is how much I could be in fandom and not be a part of it and also have like a wildly different experience to your LJ experience!

I think if I'd been a teenager during that era it would have seemed a lot more appealing (in the same way that many teens are antis now before they grow out of it), and fuck it if I was a more bitter person who was just around people who liked to make fun of what other people created, perhaps I would have enjoyed it too, I can see a lot of reasons why a person would fall into that in LJ -> but I was an adult on LJ trying not to be mean to people or what they were creating, so yeah I was maybe just in very different spaces! (Don't get me wrong, I have my giant fucking character flaws, but I was very scared of people hating me so like I didn't want to do things that would make that happen, lol, and also I was scared to put up fic myself during the era of active sporking. I know for myself that sporkers didn't just scare away writers of 'badfic' - they...intimidated a LOT of people).

Before AO3 I was on FF.net, posting fics on LJ, posting on Schnoogle, gossamer, and a couple of other archives. So I don't think my experience was that 'narrow,' I just think I wasn't around like... anime at that time or other places where it might have been happening. I also avoided like...Draco/Malfoy where CC drama was happening and I know sporking was popular in that specific arena / pairing for a while as well (er, as well as anything to do with Mary Sues).

So yeah! That's about where that is. Generally gatekeeping fandom is just seen as not a great thing to do to people, and that creates other kind of beliefs that are generally upheld as being more inviting/nurturing. After all, if someone truly wants to get better at writing, they can ask, or do courses, but as we all know, everyone has to write some bad stuff to get good at it, but not everyone wants to be good. Folks are in fandom for different reasons. I'm rambling now so I'm going to finish my lunch! :D

#asks and answers #pia on fandom #pia on writing #god i do not miss sporking #but it's still happening tbh in some sections of the internet #and it always will!!!#there will always be fics that piss us off or that are just written painfully #generally speaking it's just encouraged to share that with afriend privately #instead of creating a website and recording an interview or discussion or slam #or writing an article for fandom to see #and using BNF energy to chase fic writers out of fandom #it's wild that it was actually around for as long as it was #on LJ #i feel like that was the mean-spirited click-bait era before click-bait then came around #anyway it's grown in popularity again because of Tiktok!#such is life :D

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findafight · 10 months

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Controversial headcanons/opinions! That are mostly about Steve now that I read them back.

1. Stancy’s biggest roadblock is Nancy’s inability to admit she’s wrong/makes mistakes.

2. Jancy’s biggest roadblock is Jonathan’s parentification. Jon loves Will, but some of his devotion to him is tied up in that - something I think fandom tends to overlook. We’ve already seen that Nancy either forgets or underestimates how much the Byers rely on Jon and I would not put it past her to view him looking after Will on the same level as her having to look after Mike & Holly.

Even once it’s revealed and they talk about it, it’s going to open a rift between them.

3. Joyce doesn’t give a shit about Steve and never will. Hop gives a shit reluctantly, in a mostly professional capacity but will be haunted with guilt if Steve dies.

4. Karen Wheeler is a shitty person and if the Duffers wanted me to think different maybe shouldn’t have teased her considering sleeping with a kid her daughter’s age. Also doesn’t give a shit about Steve, but is better at hiding it.

5. Billy, while being in the closet and brimming with self hatred, did not have a crush on Steve - he wanted the weird codependent yet weirdly void of sexual tension friendship that Steve would go onto have with Robin.

The fact that Steve hated him and was constantly ignoring him or pushing back at him was part of the appeal. That and the fact Steve’s a bitch - Billy thought that was hilarious.

6. Steve intelligence wise is average and actually has a fairly broad general knowledge - he just has difficulty with the terminology and isn’t great at explaining things to other people.

7. Steve’s kids are Dustin, Max, Lucas and Erica. He will absolutely protect the other three, but any presence he continues to have in their lives is a by-product of the other four.

8. Mike has a on again/off again crush on Steve and it’s part of the reason he turns into an angry cat around him.

9. We will meet Vickie’s entire family before we see the Harringtons on-screen.

10. Jon would *not* react well to Stargyle happening - he refuses to believe Steve is queer, assuming he’s just messing with Argyle/trying to get revenge on Jon for cheating with Nancy (for added tragicomedy, this is how Steve finds out about that).

11. Eddie likes ABBA. I have no fucking idea why fandom seems to think that he’d hate it and has me genuinely questioning how many people in fandom have met an actual metalhead. I know he’s a pretentious douche, but *Jesus*.

12. Whatever else happens between them, Robin will always hold a grudge against Nancy for not knowing who she was when they were first introduced. Steve has the excuse of being a popular kid who was ignorant of his surroundings at all times. Robin is the person who could swipe Valedictorian out from under Nancy but chooses not too. See also, Barb and the handful of grudges she has with Nancy regarding Steve.

omg so many anon! let's do this. long post so I'm going to add a readmore!

Yeah I mostly agree? The inability to let Nancy apologize or be wrong I think really sets back her growth as a character no matter what, and it's really pronounced with stancy! It is something that could be resolved but I do not think the show will do that. Steve wasn't the person Nancy needed in s2, but maybe he is now. Idk there's better stancy meta out there haha There are issues they have I'd love to see addressed but. doubtful they will. Idk if nancy will end up single (like I think she should) but I also don't know if they're actually going to follow through on stancy revival in s5 or just leave jancy as is.

2. Jonathan's parentification!! Absolutely agree. He needs to work through his inability to move on and look to the future for himself. His focus is on Will, who needs more of an older brother from him than another parent, especially now Will is closer to the age Jon was when everything started. Jon is defined by his family, and them needing him. But we sort of see in s4 that Will is growing up, El is too, and they don't need him in the same way Will needed to depend on him in earlier seasons, and Jon is spending time smoking with Argyle, but not actually dealing with what he's feeling.

this is room for Jonathan to develop character-wise, but it's also so interesting how his parentification has been an issue with Nancy! Like she wants to be a priority, but Jon can't do that, because he hasn't figured out how to 1) focus on himself and his wants 2) let himself look at the future as something that isn't looming but something to look forward to!

God I would love to see him figure out what he actually wants and how to balance that with his loyaty to his family in the show! or read a jon focused fic where he gets to deal with these things.

3. Joyce doesn't like steve :'| why would she? he's just some guy to her that Jon didn't like and who used to date her son's girlfriend. Steve's not on her radar at all she doesn't give a shit about him lol (I should write more of the joyce doesn't like steve fic)

4. uhg yeah I think I've already posted about alternatives to the stupid Karen side-plot where it's like. random pool middle age affair man, flirting with mr. clarke, or just her making moves on her own husband to show she wants to make changes in their marriage and the fair being a little date for the wheelers or SOMETHING to make her not creepy and actual have it mean something to her character? or just. not! include! any karen plotline at all!

5. billy is interesting because i would say there might be some one-sided sexual thing happening between him and Steve, and Steve hating and ignoring him would totally egg him on with whatever was going on in his brain. idk if he wanted it actually actionable but was probably going for some weird and very intense pscho-sexual homoerotic relationship. maybe not what could be described as a crush but certainly not whatever stobin has going on (though if he had lived stobin would have also pissed him off lol)

6. Yes! steve can understand a lot if he's given time to understand it. like he's just not a genius or talking fast, and he asks clarifying questions so he (and everyone else) knows exactly what's happening. maybe that might look like he's getting left behind but he's making sure everyone is on the same page, which is actually an important part of plans and sharing info. I'd also say he'd probably have pretty good head for strategy!

7. Dustin, Max, Lucas and Erica are absolutely steve's kids! thank goodness we got Steve and Max content in s4, but I'd love to see more of Steve and Lucas and Erica! I do love Steve with El too, because I think they should and could have a great dynamic, but that's all fanon, unfortunately. Mike and Will having some kind of relationship with Steve are just byproducts of Steve being friends with the others.

8. Mike and his mortifying crush on steve is so precious to me. He'd be so mad about it. It'd be so funny. to me. not for him. but for me :)

9. Harrington parents will remain an unsolved mystery haunting the fandom forever and always. We will know the names of Robin's grandparents and their pets before we see or hear anything more than Mr. and Mrs. Harrington.

10. I am obsessed with this idea. I love stargyle sort of coming out of nowhere for other people. My favourite. They can bond over having great hair and being a chauffeur for children not related to them. Jon side-eyeing this so hard even tho maybe he's been focusing on Nancy and their relationship when steve and argyle are having their Bonding Moments. The confrontation of Jon accusing Steve of getting with Argyle to mess with him, Steve going "what the hell. why would I have an elaborate polt to mess with you that included pretending to be queer? and kissing a man? multiple times??"

and Jon blurting about how of course he would to get back at jon for cheating with Nancy and steve just stopping. and trying to clarify. and Jon digging himself deeper. ooooooh. something to think about and expand on?? 👀👀👀

11. it was the 80s and disco was way out of style but also. who doesn't like ABBA. don't trust anyone who doesn't like at least one ABBA song. suspicious. Eddie would be vocal about his hatred for Progressive Rock though.

12. Robin and her grudges!!!! omg yes if robin was holding herself back from being valedictorian she'd be Pissed that Nancy didn't know who she was. like at least know your rivals! that in combination with the barb thing and all the steve things. Robin's not letting it go. I love her pettiness she's so funny and great. Queen.

#findaanswers #stranger things #steve harrington #jonathan byers #nancy wheeler #robin buckley #eddie munson #argyle stranger things #idk if i should tag the ships #not billy hargrove friendly #even though it's not not friendly let's be safe i guess #anonasaurus #stranger things meta #honestly i had some computer issues answering this and ive been trying to finish it for. hours no so here it is I'm going to bed #stargyle

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leporellian · 1 month

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what opera would you adapt so that everyone was played by beanie babies. also what characters would be what beanie baby

unfortunately i could probably cast every single opera with beanie babies. there are so many of them, in both directions, and i could very easily do it to the point that if you just said 'cast (whatever opera) with beanie babies' i could do it. (however i do distinctly think i would have more fun if given leeway to pick any stuffed animal...)

however i feel like making this simple so here goes: don giovanni with beanie babies

the don himself is fredrick the fox:

first off, this is one of the modern beanie babies (not a beanie boo, mind you, which is a separate line) so this thing is everywhere, which i feel like fits the vibe. it's also cute enough you could take it home but not cute enough that you would feel safe divulging secrets to it. (the eyes... they don't got any light in them.) finally i feel like the don Has to be a fox because it has that delicious sort of reynardian quality about it.

leporello is ears the rabbit:

ears is the only beanie baby rabbit that was produced in this lying down pose. which gives it this utterly defeated quality every time a photo is taken of it because its head sort of angles towards the ground and the arms buckle around the head like it has a migraine and it's just sort of an unfortunate scene. obviously therefore this thing has to be leporello.

donna elvira is specifically this promotional arlene beanie baby from garfield the movie (2004)

this is a frankly gorgeous beanie baby in terms of execution, pose, fabric/plastic color choices... and its been typecast into being The Bitch Wife character, which is i feel like really meta-textually perfect for what we are dealing with here. there's also the added context of this being a promotional plush toy (of a side character! an accessory!) that was meant to be discarded as soon as garfield the movie (2004) was no longer being marketed. so. yeah

donna anna is caw the crow:

usually i like making anna something horse-themed because like, really considering everything that feels like the best pick. HOWEVER something about caw the crow gets me. this one was released before beanie babies had poems and birthdays so the inside of its card was just... blank except for its name. also apparently multiple people have reported being a little creeped out by it. so i feel like its the best fit

don ottavio is hydrant the dalmatian:

this thing makes me laugh. this is meant to be a firefighting dog. however the poem and the general look of it scream anything but that. they gave this thing the face of a newborn sock. there is no way. There is No Way. another funny thing is that hydrant the dalmatian was a 'beanie babies 2.0', a more 'updated' beanie baby that was basically just a shameless webkinz clone because that was what was in vogue in 2008. now if you get a hydrant beanie baby, this advertised feature no longer works bc the site was shut down long ago. this is a reference to don ottavio's broken promises

zerlina is spring the rabbit:

i am cheating a LITTLE BIT because technically currently 'beanie bellies', which this is a product of, is a separate line from 'beanie babies'. however they initially sold as 'beanie babies' and were then spun off into something separate so this to me is fair game. this has all the overly-cutesy trappings of the modern beanie babies without looking too fake (except for ty warner not knowing rabbits don't have paw pads) HOWEVER at the same time i think this thing absolutely would wield a knife and start advancing on me in a toy story universe which fits what i am looking for

masetto is snort ii the bull:

another really new beanie baby but not nearly as cutesy as the one above and more self-explanatory. however its weirdly shaped face (and? disproportionate bead eyes?) means i cannot take this thing seriously in the slightest without feeling like a 7 year old is staring at me about to ask if i have games on my phone. so. yeah.

not counting the commendatore bc he's onstage for 5 minutes but if you REALLY wanted you could probably make him one of the very early pre-poem beanie babies. The statue is still inexplicably a statue, because I am a man of law

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cosmoseinfeld · 1 year

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How was the Sunny Dublin show?!!! Do you have any pictures?

How long was the macdennis segment? Was Glenn shaky on the macdennis "love affair" chat (saw a post on twitter) or was he just doing one of his Glenn bits like from the podcast where he acts like he's not into things before he's honest about it? Did they confirm Honey and Vinegar for s16 or were they just teasing the idea of it in future seasons? Were you able to see their expressions from your seat? (Sorry for being cringe and insane in your asks!)

hiii! sorry it took me so long to reply. I was kind of processing those days and also recovering from covid which i brought as a fun souvenir! (nw, it's all good) I can't possibly tell you how long the segment was but it def took up a good chunk of the show! i was sitting too far away to take good pictures or videos (nor did i want to yknow, kind of living in the moment) but i took this pic of the screen which was up for a satisfyingly long time

I honestly think glenn was just doing one of his "bits" because - imo - he's much more on our side when it comes to the meta level of the show just from how he is talking about dennis etc. I still love how bold rob was by just straight up saying macdennis is a love affair to some. at least, glenn then said to rob "love you, baby!" I remember meg saying it's one of her favourite dynamics but we already knew that. Oh, she also said that the impl*cation scene was put up there against her will and i agree. It's not a macdennis moment and I overall hate it (in parts because it is what dudebros cling to so desperately). I am amazed that they somehow managed to avoid talking about Mac and Dennis break up AGAIN by "letting the audience choose" (which is a fabricated thing because a hyped up audience will cheer and holler for anything) but i will say that Suburbs got a REALLY loud cheer. They played the montage from that and ofc the dinner scene with the "newsflash asshole" moment. Oh, we also had to watch glenn's naked ass on screen. Rob talked about shooting that scene and said how hard it was for him to keep up because glenn was bringing his whole talent to it and rob said he wasn't that good of an actor to keep up. glenn said he's sometimes concerned that there is this psychopathic side to him and that he needs to get that checked. They then played Mortgage Crisis but didn't really talk about it. BUT meg suggested that hugh honey & vic vinegar should make a comeback at some point and rob sort of agreed and so did the audience, so who knows! The segment ended with them playing the impl*cation scene instead of break up and meg saying mac and dennis keeping each other in check is one of the things she loves about that dynamic and that they follow their own specific set of rules.

Overall, it was a very fun show and I am happy I went. The mood was so great, on stage and in the audience. I couldn't see their expressions from up there but I did see rob pulling down his pants to show us his shamrock tattoo, so there's that image... I loved the video cameos by danny, artemis, the lawyer and even uncle jack. Glenn got drunk on stage to the point that rob felt the need to intervene when he got too annoying lmao. Glenn said rob gave him a shot of "tequila" backstage and it might have been the bit that tipped him over - he then got corrected because it was whisky of course (maybe he had flashbacks to the christmas special). They played family fight but it was sooo messy omg... never give buzzers to drunk man-children. Everybody celebrated kaitlin of course and it was... a special experience to hear her and glenn sing the tiny boy song live. Charlie sang a bunch of sunny songs. The one that got me most was "I like life at paddy's pub" of course, especially because the whole audience was singing along. They also had an inflatable tube guy on stage before the show started which I thought was hilarious and weirdly relaxing to watch... Oh, yes before the show started, they had a sunny playlist going on with all the classics like "the boys are back in town" and the ghostbusters song etc. During the intermission, they showed gag reels on screen. Hm what else... Not to burst the bubble, but they also talked about how they couldn't film s15 in Ireland because of covid restrictions, so the on locations shootings took place in california - movie magic! If I remember anything else that's of significance, I'll post a follow-up. I really hope they'll come back to europe soon because i'll def go again. It was so nice to meet other sunny fans IRL and hang out and have a good time together :) i am always amazed how a shared love for a show can bring people together... it's so wholesome. (and you could also sense their love for the show and each other and I think it's great for them to finally get such a direct feedback from the fans)

#ask #good-realtor-bad-realtor-dynamic #the always sunny podcast #live in dublin #iasip #macdennis #guys it was sooo much fun... my love for them grew #sorry this took so long #always sunny dublin

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deeplyridiculouslyinlove · 7 months

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Okay, my thoughts at the end of book 4! I’m mostly saving these for my own posterity and there isn’t much interesting here in terms of theory or meta or whatever, so sorry to anyone who finds it in the tags.

- I *really* liked parts of this book. Rand’s experience in Ruihdean was very well done, as were most of the parts of the book in the Waste more generally IMO. Exploring Tel’aran’rhiod was very cool. And I liked learning about the cultural norms surrounding women in the other cultures who can channel. I also liked getting POV chapters for some of the antagonists. Basically, anything that was focused more on world building and less on specific characters had me so engaged I couldn’t stop listening. Not an original thought, but the world building in these books is so good.

- It really took me some time to adjust to the versions of the characters in this book, because it feels like some of them take a sharp turn from who they were books 1-3. Rand especially. I think I had been expecting a little more buildup of character growth where he grows into someone new informed by who he used to be and retaining those values, but instead he’s sort of just a different person this book. It didn’t help that I switched audiobook narrators I’m sure, but there is definitely a different tone to this book - for example, suddenly in this book there are “bosoms” everywhere and it’s weird bc like, where did that come from? Anyway, I’m learning quickly that character development isn’t the strong part of these books even though they’re all POV chapters. By the end of the book I was used to the new versions of each character, but I’m a bit sad we didn’t see more of emotional toll the characters are going through so their changes would be less abrupt. Moiraine also had a different vibe to me this book - I’m biased obviously, but I feel like we need a Moiraine POV chapter soon to understand her current arc. Not that I should ask for these books to be *longer* lol.

- I knew the coup was coming and that Siuan would be stilled but I’m still so DISTRESSED by it. In fact I was so distressed that I had to ask my partner if she eventually gets her power back like Moiraine did in the show 😂 I’m so curious if they’re essentially going to do the same storyline twice, or switch up Siuan’s somehow to avoid the stilling plot altogether? And also, I think I get why they used 2x07 to set up Moiraine and Siuan not being on the best of terms if in the books Siuan doesn’t know what’s going on with Rand when the coup occurs.

- Sadly I feel like everything I heard about the poor writing of women that had been the reason I hesitated to read the books in the first place really crop up in this book. Why is every single POV female character (and even some who aren’t POV, like Faile) in love with a male character? And don’t get me started on the weird way that the girls have their clothes change on them to expose them without consent when they think about men in Tel’aran’rhiod - that would NEVER be written to happen to a male character to show his interest in a woman. And yet at the same time they’re supposed to be all in love and weirdly horny now, they’re also somehow all soo childish - what in the world is with Elayne pulling in Thom’s mustaches?? At one point they literally say Aviendha is having a “tantrum.” It’s not just that the book is so straight, it’s also like, weird straight…

- Maybe tied to the above, but it seems like we’re not supposed to like the Aes Sedai (or maybe more accurately, the White Tower and those trained formally there) but I continue to think they’re one of the most interesting parts of these books. Even with the coup! I want so much more from their perspectives. And it seems like Jordan may be trying to make the point that “even if you have only women in power it will also be corrupt and bad because the problem is power not gender” (like reverse patriarchy!), and to the extent he is it isn’t really hitting for me - it just sort of lands for me as “women can’t be trusted with power,” which is one of the oldest tropes out there. Maybe this will improve! I’m enjoying Siuan as a key POV character, although I guess now she’s no longer Aes Sedai?

#dril reads wot #wheel of time #wot book spoilers

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evilwickedme · 1 year

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Currently obsessed with the idea of demi!Jason experiencing attraction for the first time with Roy and being like "Are you sure you're not a meta with some sort of sex powers?"

Aydjjfkdkgkekg honestly!!! Like he's just completely baffled and he has no idea what to do with this. There's a fic I like (I think I've rec'd actually) where he literally takes years to realize he likes Roy and to me it's just that he can't comprehend actually feeling attraction. He's never felt it before!! It's brand new!! And he's now weirdly obsessed with his best friend but also he's never had a best friend before, maybe feeling flushed and awkward is a normal reaction to being around your best friend? (Spoiler alert: it is not a normal reaction to being around your best friend.) In my fic I had him legit not realize what was going on until Roy kisses him and while I can imagine a spuffy situation (if you've seen s5 of buffy you know) where it just comes to him in a dream, I love the idea of him being just entirely clueless. But like undoubtedly once he's down he's DOWN. He's heads over heels for Roy and he doesn't understand it because this is entirely new to him!!! He's never BEEN in a hospital before!!

I absolutely have to write a scene where Jason's like in the middle of something and Roy distracts~~~ him and after a while he pulls away and points a finger at Roy and says "are you a wizard. Do you have magic powers. What is going on here" and Roy absolutely loses it he's so gone for this absolute LOSER and to be fair the loser is so gone for him, too

#jayroy #jason todd #roy harper #demi jason todd #I will die on this hill btw that guy is a-spec it's clear as day #gail speaks #ask #anonymous #dc #jason todd my beloved #jt

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mittensmorgul · 1 year

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okay, i think at least one of my thoughts on this episode is beginning to congeal into something... Gabriel

and I’m gonna call him Gabriel for the sake of expediency, because I do think that’s who it is. let me explain.

first off, they name checked Tall Tales in a bit of throwaway dialogue. but I heard it. (i’ll rewatch tomorrow when it’s on the cw app and get the exact quote, but it was just weird enough as dialogue that it felt deliberately inserted there)

then there’s what we DO know about Gabriel’s timeline, mostly from things he himself said in canon. in 5.08:

You don't know anything about my family. I love my father, my brothers. Love them. But watching them turn on each other? Tear at each other's throats? I couldn't bear it! Okay? So I left. And now it's happening all over again.

I always believed he was referencing the ORIGINAL fight between Michael and Lucifer here, when Luci ended up crammed in the cage. That’s what he ran from. At the beginning of Humanity on Earth. And he’d been playing Loki for... look let’s call it at least thousands of years. And Loki? in 13.20:

GABRIEL: Oh, well… We were. A few thousand epochs ago, I was out for a hike in the fjords. Came across Loki bound in a cave, snake dripping venom into his eye. Ugh. Apparently, he had some spat with his pops. Anyhoo, I freed him. Saved his life. Then my real brothers started going at it. I wanted out. Loki owed me one, so… he helped me ditch Gabriel and become him. DEAN: So then you took on his whole… trickster vibe. SAM: What did Loki do while you were impersonating him? GABRIEL: Oh. Well, he had his own family drama to worry about. It was in his best interest to go off the grid for a while. DEAN: But you saw him in Monte Carlo. GABRIEL: Well, I needed someplace to hide. He'd already helped me the once.

So both of them were out and about. even if they were both staying off grid as it were. And I always assumed that Loki only came back out after he heard of Gabriel’s “outing” and “death”-- and Odin’s actual death-- in 5.19.

But circling back around to the Tall Tales reference... it took me a while to see how it could be Gabriel. He had two modes: hoist the deserving upon their own petard, and teach people he actually finds interesting lessons they need to learn. And weirdly... this turned out to be the latter. And it feels even more like an Important Lesson that needed to be learned with Chuck literally sitting in the backup band. Even if that was just supposed to be some random musical group, you know? In a meta way, that’s still Chuck.

(and the role even fit’s Chuck’s known history, thanks Robbie... playing all sorts of music clubs, just having relationships, etc., but that’s all really beside the point to this)

Gabriel... was playing pretty much the same game he did on Sam and Dean way back in 2.15. Like... exactly the game he’s always played on them right up until they finally caught him in 5.08.

Why do you think I've always taken such an interest in you? Because from the moment Dad flipped on the lights around here, we knew it was all gonna end with you. Always.

And that feels like the EXACT reason he would’ve taken an interest in Sam and Dean’s parents, too.

But also in all the episodes of spn that dealt with Trickster lore, and actual Loki lore, there was never a mention of a mirror. Or of being able to kill any of them with a shiny blade covered in blood and whatever spell they did. It was always a special stake. And Gabriel actually did eventually kill Loki... with a special wooden sword. Not a shiny blade.

So, why the deviation in lore? I know we’ve been asking this throughout The Winchesters, but this feels really important here, as well as having a potential explanation immediately to hand: that Gabriel set up all of it. He just wanted to play up close and personal with the Winchesters, maybe pass off a little lesson if he could. But also, regardless, it’s another nod to an angel in the series, and those are really beginning to pile up without actually showing us a real angel. And I’m entirely bemused by that on its own.

#the winchesters #spnwin s1 spoilers #spnwin 1.08 #gabriel

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allthatglittersisnotgoldrush · 1 month

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Alright. I just did another re-read of some parts of the series. I even woke up crying from a dream remembering a somewhat harrowing scene. But I have two questions that stumbled into my brain while on my run today. I’m pretty sure you can only answer one of them as the last one would be a spoiler. 1) Did Melkor really have Feanor’s skull??? Idk if you have answered this but…I’m so creeped out by Melkor. He would totally do something like this. It’s such a psychological stab to Mae and the other boys. 2) Instead of Celegorm weirdly falling in love with Luthien, are y’all gonna give our girl Luthien some agency and have her runaway on her own with Triple Threat (aka Celegorm, Curufin, and Caranthir)??? I know the last one can’t be answered. Sometimes I go on mild obsessions on how you goddesses will handle the hot mess that is the Silmarillion. Okay, bye!

Well, first of all, can we just say how flattered we are that you would not only have reread the AU once but more than once? Absolutely amazing news for us authors. Also, if you're comfortable saying so, WHAT was the somewhat harrowing scene that made it into an actual dream?!? There's something very meta about AU-infiltrated dreams, given the Maedhros of it all.

The answer to your first question is unfortunately... yes. Ulfang during his double agent era dug up Feanor's corpse, removed his head, and passed it along to Morgoth. He also passed along Feanor's wedding ring, which was sort of an... Authentication for both Morgoth and Maedhros in turn. Sorry for confirming this for you ://

Your second question ... Well, we really can't say much about the Lay of Leithian arc right now, but we do have a lot of plans for it, and we CAN assure you that our Luthien likes to be the architect of her own destiny just as much as her canon counterpart and that will be reflected in the way our telling does and/or doesn't align with canon. Also, without divulging the result, your inquiry led to a lot of discussion in the author group chat!

Thanks again for your kind attention and thoughtfulness 🙂

#Asks #jacarandadreams #gold rush au #the silmarillion

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dragattin · 1 month

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self insert tiem :D

more info under the cut :)

Name: their name is my name and i dont want to share my irl name online :3

Age: 20-something

Pronouns: they/them

International student from the USA but they want to drop out. They work at a cafe and they hate their job. Their japanese is subpar, along with their english despite being a native speaker.

Their relationships with the sextuplets ^_^

Osomatsu - drinking buddies, he plays up his attraction to them around his brothers but when they're alone he treats them normally. They are rather close.

Karamatsu - they avoid him at all costs. His very existence repels them.

Choromatsu - they can't stand being around him too long. He's ok in small amounts but they don't really like being around him a lot

Ichimatsu - they hang out sometimes and enjoy each other's company.

Jyushimatsu - homoerotic besties YAY

Todomatsu - moots online, they met him first through their job

Now for the side characters :D

Totoko - they are very attracted to her. They love a woman who can kick their ass. Their relationship isn't very deep due to their awkwardness towards attractive women.

Nyaa-chan - they don't know jack shit about her nor would they care to due to Choromatsu liking her a little too much

Matsuyo and Matsuzo - weirdly attracted to both of them but they don't want to tell the brothers because that would be VERY awkward. They are very awkward with them.

Dekapan and Dayon - they are scared of Dayon but thinks Dekapan is goofy

Hatabou - he's intimidating to them for some weird reason

Iyami - they are also intimidated by him. They once saw him fight cats for scraps of food, they don't want to fuck with him at all.

Chibita - he verbally questions their choices, meanwhile, they keep him updated with their life. They met Chibita through the sextuplets and they enjoy his food.

I included a denki mystery design because tbh denki mystery is my fave :D

ANYWAYS SO! More rambling ahead about them!

They are replacing the Osomatsu-san staff but noncanonically, so their meta bullshit powers aren't that strong. It's strong enough that they can push reality to be sort of what they want, but they usually don't get their way.

I have a whole fucking google document about them might share more later yippee

If you got this far thanks for reading :3

#osomatsu san #self insert #self insert x canon #yumematsu #denki mystery #reference

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pttucker · 6 months

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"There is no such thing as the perfect regression, just like how there can be no Story without sacrifices. If I regress again this time…" More than likely, he'd lose someone again. The world would sink into yet another tragedy. The world about to be created in order to save Kim Dokja could be destroyed without managing to save anyone, instead. Han Sooyoung replied. "I know that. Also…" She shifted her gaze over to the Complex's entrance and continued on. Since when was it? Several lengthy shadows were drawing closer to them under the cold wintery light. "Those people also know it, too."

Hmmm

This chapter is kinda strange to me, though not in a bad way. Just...not what I'm used to.

I think, in a very meta way, the characters know they're in the "epilogue" and it's a big choice now as to whether they really want to go back to the beginning of the novel or not.

All through the entirety of ORV, whenever Dokja was in danger they rushed to protect him. Dokja was their everything and they would do anything in their power to save him (often from himself). But now they're just kind of standing around discussing which Dokja is "their" Dokja and it's like...it doesn't matter??? If that Dokja in the hospital is "your" Dokja then it's even more important for you to save him!

Like, I think it'd be a very interesting discussion (and plot point) if 49% was up and walking around and each companion had to decide for themself if they wanted to stay with him or if they wanted to go looking for 51%. But he's not up and walking around???? He's literally dying. You have to do something.

Or you have to quietly let him die and continue on without him.

idk they just seem weirdly resistant to me, but not in an out of character sort of way, but rather in a "I'm so very, very tired" sort of way. I think that it's because they are in the epilogue and now that it's finally over, they actually have to make the hard decision of "do I love Kim Dokja enough to do everything again and risk losing the happy ending I have now?" The happy ending Dokja himself wanted? (Granted, Dokja had no idea that his avatar was gonna start fading away...I think...)

I mean, the last line seems to imply that they did decide that they do love him that much but I think the fact that they even hesitated says a lot about how much this story has taken out of them.

#orv #orv novel chapter 526 #omniscient reader's viewpoint #orv liveblog #orv spoilers #orv epilogue spoilers #kdj #kdj crew #(okay I have completely cleared out my queue and it still says it has 16 posts in there 😑 but I'm gonna try to use it anyway)#(I have moved everything into drafts and am trying to put them back into the queue)#(but they're all out of order due to stuff getting stuck in the queue and not wanting to move at first UGHHHHHHH)#(I AM NEVER USING PAUSE QUEUE AGAIN IT RUINED EVERYTHING!)

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yvtro · 1 year

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hi! i'm writing a jason-centric fic and i want to characterize him more like in canon than fanon. what do you think are things i should avoid? what are things people misinterpret most about his character? what are his motivations/goals as the red hood? can he be written as a revolutionary and if so then how (from my understanding of canon he mostly killed criminals to piss off bruce not because he wanted to change society)? what are things Jason could do to actually change society/help people/lower crime in gotham instead of killing criminals? i also heard people say something about war on drugs in connection to jason and i'm wondering what's the connection? sorry if this is a lot, i just have a lot of questions and can't find any answers to them in metas i read so i decided to ask someone about it :)

hi. i must say the ask itself is a bit confusing, do you not read comics? or do you want some second opinion, or to brainstorm with someone? interpreting the canon yourself is already a huge part of working on a fic, and simply taking for granted what other people say seems to be a bit boring, but well, i'm not judging.

there's lots to unpack is this ask though, so let me try to dissect it:

"i want to characterize him more like in canon than fanon" <- so first of all i want to say that there doesn't exist any consistent characterisation of jason esp. after his 80s robin runs. there have been dozens of people writing him, each having their own ideas, underwriting and overwriting their own work even. there's also plenty of stuff that has never been addressed by canon. so if you want to write jason to make any sense, you have to cherry pick a bit, and i think that's fun to do too.

what do you think are things i should avoid? <- if you want to give any credibility to his original robin books, avoid the "angry robin" paradigm. it is canon for many newer comics however, so at the end of the day it is your call if you want to use it – but many people would say that it is an overly stereotypical and classist take that makes him rather one-dimensional.

what are things people misinterpret most about his character? <- an entertaining thing about comics is that there are lots of seemingly contradictory readings that can be simultaneously equally valid. however, if i had to point something that (to me) makes completely no sense, it's an interpretation that is continuously pushed by some fans (who tend to present themselves as canon truthers, weirdly) that is hardly accurate for any of his appearances. i.e. an assumption that jason is calculated, hence cold and perfectly rational. this is something that doesn't make sense even if you consider the worst of his retcons. in utrh and even in the bftc era, while jason is obv highly competent, smart, and able to work under intense pressure, the driving force of his plans has always been highly emotional. he is very thorough and focused in his missions, but the missions themselves are often delusional or even to an extent suicidal. in his later anti-hero runs in which he is mostly portrayed as a sort of power fantasy still, he is often rather vocal about feeling left out, he is called (without malice, for once) "the emotional robin" etc. he has an incredibly turbulent and rich inner life, he cares for people a lot (even while trying to detach himself from it). // on the other hand, i feel like people sometimes give him too much credit in terms of his self-awareness, and also imagine that there's a single thing that is a root of all of his problems. there are so many contradictory beliefs that he holds at the same time (not even mentioning the discord between what he thinks and how he acts). betting everything on just one is rather dull.

what are his motivations/goals as the red hood? <- at the risk of repeating myself, there's a lot of different truths depending on what you read (sometimes all of them hold even). in utrh the core seems to be getting bruce's attention, revenge and seeking some sort of catharsis in a suicidal set up that mirrors his original death. but i do think he also genuinely believes that he is helping people and that he wants to protect them.

(from my understanding of canon he mostly killed criminals to piss off bruce not because he wanted to change society) <- starting from here, to expand a bit: this is partly my personal interpretation, and partly something that was established in some of canon (and completely disregarded in other parts of it), but imo jason does want to change society, or maybe: he believes he cannot change it but wants to protect people within it anyway ("you can't fight crime, but you can control it"). he is completely desperate and delusional about it, even. there's lots of tension between his idealism/care for the people and his cynicism/trying to avoid vulnerability (the two former a result of trauma). he has many monologues about how he can't let supervillains/criminals keep doing what they do, and he blames the system too. i'd argue given his background he identifies with victims personally (does he realise it? does he express it? that's for you to decide), and his reasoning seems to follow the "no one should experience what i did" pattern (a brilliant parallel to batman's own motivation behind vigilantism btw). this is also jay's grievance with bruce; notice that he doesn't (or if he does, it's very rare) explicitly talk of bruce taking revenge; but he does mention the fact that joker ruined many other lives, and he talks of murder as if it was an easy solution of all the things wrong with the world. so, i'd say reducing his incentive to annoying/proving something to bruce is oversimplified. especially that when you look back at his robin days, you also notice that the only times when jason gets really agitated about criminals is when he witnesses people being hurt (+ when he hears about his father's death).

can he be written as a revolutionary and if so then how? <- if you want to adhere to canon– again, depends (but not really). jason in his outlaw days (albeit with a stretch) could be read as a revolutionary. jason as a crime lord, even if it's an "undercover" job? imo no. this all boils to the relation of power. i talked about it a bit here. you can't be a revoltionary while working specifically on top of an inherently flawed system and benefitting from it. jason as the crime lord persona of red hood is an authoritarian figure, which is pretty much as far from a revolutionary as it goes. logically, you can write him as such only if you make him step down and challenge people from the same level as the oppressed are; i hinted at it in the answer i linked, but he could be a really appealing revolutionary archetype if he gave up on the position of power; if he killed people in power without wielding it himself.

what are things Jason could do to actually change society/help people/lower crime in gotham instead of killing criminals? <- to quote myself, down to earth vigilantism that doesn’t violate people’s rights. that’s something that works outside of the system and is helpful (in-universe). having real connection to the people as opposed to being a socialite (even if that socialite is as much of a mask for bruce) and providing them with on-going support. grass-root work like mutual aid. helping people organise. doxxing and exposing the white collar crime. or if we want something that feels bigger, good old stealing from the rich and redistributing wealth <3

i also heard people say something about war on drugs in connection to jason and i'm wondering what's the connection? <- lots of jason's storylines in canon focus on controlling the drug bussiness, and he is often portrayed as someone esp resentful to dealers. being in charge of drug cartels and policing drug distribution is very much not something that will realistically solve the problem of addiction or even minimise it, much less make people affected trust you. (even if dc is trying to sell you the opposite idea)

hope this helps:)

#i have other stuff in my inbox but that felt like the anon cares for it a lot #yall really assigning me homework on here. i don't even mind #answered #dc comics #jay meta #jason todd

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