#I am not even denying the validity of the ship | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

boywifesammy · 6 months

Text

im sure everyone’s seen the argument by non-wincest shippers that canon weirdcest moments can be explained off as particularly close brothers. i’ve seen wincesties respond by straight up denying it, but honestly, i see where they’re coming from. they do TECHNICALLY have a point, yet still, it fundamentally doesnt sit well with me.

if you isolate all of these little incidents they could be perceived as purely brotherly. its got me thinking about what exactly makes wincest so appealing, and why i as a wincest shipper immediately have an exasperated reaction to people insisting that sam&dean are purely platonic.

i also see this argument frequently bundled with the stance that “weirdcest isn’t a justification for shipping wincest” (which is a whole other can of worms altogether— the puritan culture of ship culture rn), but you gotta take a step back and just ask yourself… why am i so intent on seeing these characters as platonic?

the prevailing argument ive seen is that siblings CAN be terribly close without being incestuous. this is totally fair. i’m not saying that if you are particularly close with your siblings in a sam & dean type manner that you are incestuous. obviously relationships between family is vastly complex & changes with the culture you grew up in.

the only problem here is that people try to go so far to explain sam&dean’s relationship as to not paint it as romantic. if they weren’t related, it’d be insane to think they weren’t romantic. they are consistently and repeatedly put in situations and exchange dialogue that’s used to convey romantic tone in western media. my point here being— the writers know that they are doing. and they are doing it INTENTIONALLY.

yes, certain cultures find extensive physical touch and kisses between siblings platonically acceptable. yes, you can be very close to your siblings without wanting to fuck them. but that is such a reach given what you are being presented with. you are missing the fundamental thematic point of supernatural: family horror!!

by so steadfastly arguing that sam&dean cannot be read as romantic you are purposefully ignoring the the text. you are glossing over the repeating themes of generational trauma and incest that are touched on time and time again, with john’s father abandoning him, mary’s parents being hunters, the struggle she went through to get out of the life but how family trauma & the past permeates itself into your being. you are ignoring the benders, the ghost pregnant with her fathers child, and the time azazel KISSED MARY in HER FATHERS BODY.

supernatural pushes incestuous themes SO HARD. it purposefully plays with & explores the double-sided blade that is family. it touches on a REALLY TABOO subject without being overwhelming or heavy handed. of course its going to attract people who enjoy these themes. OF COURSE we’re going to look at the two homoerotic brother leads and see something between them! it’s intentionally placed in the script! its a valid reading of the text!

this is why i get frustrated when people say that wincest shippers are twisting canon for the sake of shipping, because we’re not. when people say this they are taking a piece of media that is intriguing in how it handles a socially unacknowledged part of the human experience and forcing their viewing of it on others. they are saying that you aren’t allowed to enjoy those themes because it is inherently wrong or shameful to EXPLORE THE TOPIC. i dunno. that sounds pretty authoritarian to me.

it’s totally fine to be grossed out by incest or avoid wincest because it makes you uncomfortable. what ISNT okay is to say its an exaggerated reaction to canon, because it really isnt. in fact, its a pretty normal & sane conclusion to come to after seeing those two. the fact that they aren’t explicitly incestuous might even enhance this idea. it touches on the unspoken secretive nature of family trauma and the complicated, messy reality of crossing boundaries with blood without being cliche or overdramatic.

im going to incite occam’s razor here: yes, they could just be brothers. yes, you can explain it all away as particularly close siblings. yes, you can argue that it isnt explicitly canon. but really, why would you do all that when the show incessantly implies that they’re more? and more importantly, why are you so quick to say that a topic cannot be explored because it’s complicated? is that really the sentiment that we as a society want to hold regarding media?

#oc #supernatural #spn meta #dean winchester #sam winchester #wincest #samdean #fandom discussion #anti censorship #<- will not be using the word pr/shp because im not a fan of it #it does the idea injustice because it isnt just about shipping but media censorship & social literacy as a whole #but yeah. this has been floating in my brain and i needed to get it out #if any of you have thoughts pls reply or elaborate in tags!!#this is something thats very important to me and i wanted to put it out there

138 notes · View notes

lostcauses-noregrets · 16 days

Note

Why is the answer always "Levi said this Levi did this" whenever one asks about the signs of Eruri in canon? Levi's side is pretty clear, but every time I talk to an Eruri and I ask "but why do you think Erwin loved Levi" the answer is very long but it's mostly empty and just "I am sure he did" or "but Levi loved him so Eruri is canon". Sorry this isn't a "hehehe your ship is one sided it's not canon" type of question. It's more of a writing-wise question, since you are a writer yourself I thought you'd give the best answer to this.

I am wondering, is this because of lack of Erwin's pov in aot manga or anime? I know Erwin is important and plays an important role and story revolves around him in s3 p2 and all that but when you look at the bigger picture he's mostly just there. He's in the story but you don't see his pov. We don't get to see the inside of his head until the end. Is this why "does Erwin love Levi" question is a hot topic in aot fandom always? Or are there any side stories like smartpass aus that suggest Erwin had feelings for Levi? I'm sorry I don't know those very well I only know the manga and the anime.

Lastly, I am sure you answered this before but my question is very specific, do you actually believe it was mutual? After all it's fiction and you don't need their love to be mutual to ship them. People ship characters who barely interact. It's what fandom is and that's totally normal and valid. I guess I am wondering if you ever doubted, th ship or even yourself which I do a lot (in a "oh I love this so much and I read so much fics I made myself believe" way) Thanks I hope this doesn't sound rude or offensive, my English isn't very good so if I sound rude that must be it it's not my intention :)

Ooof there’s a lot of different questions here but I think they boil down to the following:

Are Erwin and Levi’s feelings for each other mutual? / Does Erwin reciprocate Levi’s feelings?

Why do people question Erwin’s relationship to Levi?

Do I personally believe their relationship was mutual, and have ever “doubted the ship”?

I’ve answered the first question many, many times over the years. You can read all my various answers here. In short I do think that Erwin reciprocated Levi’s feelings and I think the evidence is there in the manga, the official guidebooks, the Smartpass stories, and the side content for anyone who cares to see it. I’m not going to list all the side content here, but there’s a very old post by @erbeansandravioli that links to a lot of it: Eruri receipts.

As to why people question Erwin’s relationship to Levi, well that’s an interesting one. Some people clearly just don’t get Erwin’s character (see the previous ask I just answered), they don’t understand his role in the plot or the significance of his relationship to Levi. For example I’ve seen people arguing passionately that Levi’s vow had nothing to do with Erwin, which is just mind boggling to me. It’s certainly true that Erwin is a much harder character to read than Levi who very much wears his heart on his sleeve. Erwin is more reserved, and holds his cards closer to his chest. However the fact that Levi is the only one who he reveals his true self to is significant. Daisuke Ono put it beautifully when he said in an interview that the amplitude of Erwin’s feelings is so great that it can be hard to see.

It could also be that some, perhaps younger, readers just don’t recognise their relationship for what it is. It’s certainly not a typical shounen romance, but it is a deeply believable adult relationship; one that is based on mutual trust, respect and understanding. This is from a previous ask I answered on the subject:

It frustrates me enormously when people deny their canon relationship, despite Yams being at paints to explain it repeatedly in the guidebooks. I want to shake them and ask what the hell they think a relationship looks like when you’re an exhausted 30 + year old war veteran who has spent their entire life fighting for survival. It looks like this; finding someone who you can trust with your life. If you were to ask me what characterizes a successful adult relationship I would say it’s exactly this; mutual trust, respect and understanding, and when push comes to shove, the willingness to do everything in your power to help the person you hold most dear, even if that means letting them go.

And as to whether I’ve ever doubted the ship, the answer to that would be no, never. Sure we’ve never seen them swear undying love in canon (though some would argue with that and point to Erwin’s "Arigatō Levi".) I wrote this in response to an ask about Eruri canonicity:

Do you mean that you don’t believe they’re canon because we never see them kiss? Because they never marry? Because the main focus of the story isn’t romance? All those things are true, but in my opinion, they’re also not the only things that make a relationship canon. Particularly when that relationship is between two war-weary 30 year old men who have been fighting for survival almost their entire lives. The irony is that, in some ways, Erwin and Levi’s relationship is actually quite conventional. They really do behave a bit like an old married couple. They have a long standing relationship that has matured over many years, they have their own weird sense of humour, they’re not afraid to challenge each other, but they care about one another deeply, and they also trust each other unconditionally. That’s all the canon evidence I need tbh.

Having said that, you are absolutely right that you don’t need any canon evidence to ship a couple. Hell, I’ve had great fun written Hanji and Petra as a side ship and I don’t think they ever even interacted in canon. In Erwin and Levi’s case though there is more than enough evidence in canon to attest to the significance of their relationship.

Hope this answers your questions.

#asks #eruri #eruri relationship #erwin smith #erwin meta #snk

43 notes · View notes

autistichalsin · 4 months

Note

Okay, I’ve been a bit scared because I’ve been observing from the sidelines, but I do want you to know this isn’t a hateful or troll ask, I’m genuinely asking for clarification.

In my experience, “pro-shipping” has always meant ‘problematic shipping’, and all of the people I’ve talked to about this have said the same thing.

Am I the one who’s misconstrued? I really don’t get it.

Being called “pro-harassment” or “pro-censorship” is hurtful and confusing as all hell.

I don’t harass people for what they create. I don’t care to do that. I block and move on, and warn people if I know they could be upset by the content.

But I also don’t understand how certain things are justified.

I am personally not bothered by much, but I have watched friends and acquaintances go through visceral traumatic reactions because people have decided to air out their coping by sharing it with the public. (I.E, people who write romantic incestual fics, etc)

I don’t give a shit what people write. I really don’t. But it feels harmful to use the excuse of coping when you, in turn, could be hurting dozens of others.

Like I said, I genuinely am not trying to be hateful here. I’m confused, and still distraught that all of this is happening. I don’t think anyone deserves to be harassed. I just also don’t get the logic here.

Pro-shipping never once meant problematic shipping. It meant opposite of "anti" because antis would come and invade the tags and asks, calling them all kinds of names if they found their ships distasteful.

Sorry that being indirectly accused of supporting harassment hurt your feelings. Imagine how I felt, being DIRECTLY accused of supporting rape in real life because of my taste in fiction. You are throwing in your lot with people who can't distinguish fantasy and reality.

I don't like incest fics either, anon. They are triggering for me. So you know what I do? I don't read fics tagged as incest. For that reason, I have never been triggered by an incest fic. I suppose I would be if I read an incest fic that wasn't tagged as much, but you will never find a single pro-shipper who defends posting such content without a tag. You are responsible for your own experience online; it is your job to curate the content.

If it was just seeing that the fic exists that triggered the response, then I'm sorry to say they're still in the wrong. As a survivor, learning that triggers exist and how to navigate those triggers is on you. We are responsible for how we deal with our trauma. Your friends didn't deserve their traumas, and they deserve kindness and support, but requesting that people never be allowed to write distasteful fiction so that they don't have to be upset by the idea that someone somewhere shipped incest is not reasonable. Their feelings are valid; it's totally reasonable to be triggered, to strictly curate your online experience. It's reasonable to block everyone who ships the upsetting incest ships, to put an "incest shippers DNI" on your page, all of it. It's not reasonable to call them supporters of IRL incest or to accuse them of causing your trauma. It isn't hard at all on AO3 or Tumblr; they even give you the option to blacklist/filter out certain tags so you can avoid it without blocking users. There's easily half a dozen safeguards that already exist that are a lot less radical, a lot less likely to be weaponized against queer users, and a lot easier to enforce than trying to remove them.

Me writing fics, such as a character using kink to cope, can only harm a user who doesn't curate their feed (and who reads fics they know will trigger them, which I can only assume would then be a purposeful form of self-harm). Denying other survivors their coping mechanism, though, IS a direct form of harm. Stigmatizing recovery by saying that survivors are in any way akin to abusers for creating fiction is a direct form of harm.

It sounds to me like you've absorbed some very harmful and very narrow ideas of what recovery should and should not look like, and what is and isn't a good/valid survivor. You might want to reflect on why you're turning your attention to policing what survivors do to cope so much.

#proship #proshipper #discourse

68 notes · View notes

td-rarepairs · 7 months

Note

Describing every single rare pair of total drama I have, if you hear the name Ezekiel a lot, get used to it:

Ezekiel x Harold:

This is one of my favorites, Yes, I was the previous Harzeke anon

Ezekiel x Duncan:

Opposites attract? Lemme consume all the art of it (I don't even like one of the characters here, but I still ship it)

Ezekiel x Justin:

Anyone here who shipped this before slimeysoda's au?

Ezekiel x Geoff:

It all started when I saw a funny looking piece of fanart, then I went down the rabbit hole, and now I ship it.

Ezekiel x Noah:

This can also be used to summarize most of the ships here, because I can

Ezekiel x Tyler:

The first guys who fell for Alejandro, you guys mainly all talk about "I like girls!" Meanwhile Ezekiel doesn't even deny it, just that "Wow eh..." IT FEELS LIKE I'M GRABBING AT STICKS TO SELF PROJECT- Wait, where am I? Or right, Ezekiel x Tyler, dumbass x dumbass

Ezekiel x Alejandro:

Same as above, just minus the Tyler specific part, and directed specifically at Alejandro.

Ezekiel x DJ:

They both love animals, and you can't rid that headcanon from me (on Ezekiel's side, DJ's love for animals is canon).

Ezekiel x Trent:

Ruined character gang.

Ezekiel x Eva:

Last one with Ezekiel, Ok? Anyways, this is the only straight Ezekiel ship I like, Lifts them like some grapes x some grapes, anyone?

Harold x Lightning:

Blame Totaldramarama for this, but you can't explain that "Your handso- I MEAN AWESOME!" Line, and the blush afterwards without at least a little bit of contemplating if that was a childhood crush representation.

Owen x Justin:

I'm starting to see a theme with kinda canon but not explicitly stated, Owen is a Bi-con and no one can change my mind.

Izzy x Eva:

It just works imo.

Katie x Sadie:

I eat up friends to lovers for diner

Raj x Wayne:

Same explanation as Katie x Sadie, just less annoying.

Wayne x Damien:

Himbo x Smarter, Gotta love that dynamic, also, enemies to lovers too! Well, I still feel like that whole enemy thing with Damien was meant to mean like Wayne doesn't see him as an enemy, instead he has one giant crush, but he doesn't wanna feel like he's copying Raj by having these feelings too, so he pretends it's an enemy thing.

Dave x Shawn:

I hate Dave with every inch of my body, but I accidentally fell into this rabbit hole, and now I ship it, trust me, this is the only Dave ship I have.

Alejandro x Tyler:

It's a great dynamic, but in the end, the video we shall not speak of messed it up.

Geoff x Brody:

I wanna see them marry all over again.

And that's all that I have that I'm not questioning the rare pair validity of, I have two more I'm questioning and I'll mention them here:

Gwourtney

Nowen

Thank you for listening to my rare pair list.

91 notes · View notes

azulas-daddy-kink · 18 days

Note

Zucest 👀

Well, I can't say I ship it but I think it is hella valid and I completely understand where the Zucest shippers are coming from. The bedroom scene like lmao come on, and Grey even admitted she voiced that part seductively on purpose. Plus (and people can deny this all they want) it is canon that Azula loves Zuko more than anyone, aside from their father. It's not hard at all to imagine this crossing from the platonic realm to something else, given how messed up and starved for affection these two kids are.

I've definitely read some Zucest fics that I really enjoyed (some of which are yours of course lol) and am generally not opposed to the ship. It's just not something I'd go out of my way to look for. I do admit the kink potential is super hot though, and I'm in agreement that Zuko would have all the same nasty kinks as his father. It's similar to Ozula in a lot of ways, just without the creepy age gap and huge power imbalance.

Also again, I'm fine with anything that upsets the toxic lesbian Azula "truthers" and the antis, and Zucest kills two birds with one stone.

LONG LIVE THE INCEST QUEENS ALLIANCE!!!!!!

#ask response #ship ask #atla #zucest #firecest #shipcest #zuko x azula #azula x zuko #azula #zuko

36 notes · View notes

dearweirdme · 4 months

Note

Responding to some of the comments from my last mole anon ask I'm not new to the group but I am new to the ship. I first started listening to the group around 2018 but watching stuff like Run and the festas a few yrs later and from that, I wouldn't have guessed taekook were dating or even one of the closest friendship. They seemed touchy yeah but i think that for the whole group tbh. It wasn't really until solo era that I started focusing more on fan stuff. I'd say before that I was more fo a casual fan who enjoyed watching the content but wasn't really desperate to see everything bts. Like I knew the basics and the memes but never really was inclined to delve any further and my knowledge of shipping was mostly critical. I did see some of the narratives in the backlash to shipping such as taekook being less close than other members and with (what I now know is edited) official content reinforcing that, it was much easier to believe that than a secret taekook love affair.

But Layover turned out to be one of my favorite albums because it was closest to my musical tastes and culture of music i grew up with and so I started hitting up twitter and specifically searching stuff up to discuss more about tae and his musical influences coz I thought he did such a great job with that album and had some real soul in it despite not being raised in that culture or country of that kind of music. And I think because of the algorithms and how popular taekook is that's when I started seeing my taekook posts pop up on my timeline and from a ship critical perspective, I brushed most of as delulu coz wlmy first exposure of ships being discussed in fandom was that it was weird and inappropriate to ship.

And the stuff that I did see out of morbid curiosity (and I admit it wasn't a lot at that time) just really validated the 'fake' accusations because it was all slow mo'd edits and taekook seemed to have 7 different anniversary dates according to the taekook stuff I read so it was seeming more like shippers were just trying to fit a circle onto a square hole or something. Plus I'd see people responding to those slo mo edits with the real time links and that made it seem even faker.

The I recently saw the mole video on twitter that brought me here and that was the first thing were I couldn't really rationalise it with a platonicary answer because one of the first things I can remember doing in a relationship is laying in bed counting and mapping each others marks and freckles.

So that to me seemed just highly romantic for a couple of bros.

Except I lost the video on twitter so I tried YouTube to find it, nothing. Searched the Internet on general, nothing and I ended up stumbling across this blog. I think I discovered while browsing after seeing a response to an ask that I thought sounded fair enough a d really kinda middle ground for a shipper. It was framed as like 'idnk for sure but here's what I think' and after looking for the link and coming across people who were more definitive in their theories and stuff, I thought somewhere like here would be the best place to ask for the info.

Because at that point, shipping didn't have any good associations to me and I wasn't really comfortable with my own speculation that the mole vid was leaving me with but I also couldn't stop second guessing my own first reaction to deny, deny, deny and make an excuse for it.

So my intentions really were to post here, get a link to the vid, watch it again and be like 'oh yeah, that's been blown out of proportion. No ships sailing here' like I had when people sent those real time links in response to ship edit videos.

(Except we all know what happened next)

While waiting for a response which came pretty quickly, I was looking up for more info on taekook in general and was coming up with mostly horse shit but I was also noticing the more reasoned stuff now that I was actively looking for it.

And in the response, DWM mentioned and tagged the taekook timeline which really topped off me taking a second look at the ship because again it was presented as kinda 'this is what I think, beware, I could be just high on delusional and this whole post could be wish fulfilment but here's what happened and what I think' and angles like that I can appreciate because I find it way more trustworthy than someone presenting a theory as fact which is what it felt like taekook lyves was doing a lot of, imo.

The timeline really sealed the deal for me, tbh, because seeing all their interactions in one place and running on concurrent really blew the hinges off the 'distance' narrative.

Which lead me to the ultimate question which I think is the fossil fuel that taekook sails on; what's with all the fucking secrecy and what's bighit hiding??

Because to me and with the timeline on front of me there was no distance on their distant relationship.

And so I've recently started a rewatch of some of their biggest hits. Like I started with bon voyage and I'm kicking myself and wondering why I didn't consider stuff like the room choosing situation in Bon Voyage Morrocoo or Malta wherever they were, more closely. I can't even explain why I just took it at face value as a joke because looking back JK made it so damn obvious.

And I started noticing the subtleties of their touching and the lack of space. I think part of me started reqatching the BV and Run episodes to be kinda proven right that there was nothing more to the ship and I was being delulu but the more I watch, the more Im starting to notice and those fossil fuel questions keep popping up in my mind.

And as a logical creature who said taekook isn't real when I couldn't see anything proving it, I can't then refuse to consider the possibility that it might be real now that I'm seeing stuff that I consider legit proof or support of a relationship.

As for theories, I don't want it to come across like I'm acting smarter or more superior than anyone else because I think everyone is working off theories even the people who don't believe in it because none of us know these guys or their lives but I don't like when theories are pushed as fact or manipulated or framed as the only possible conclusion to a question. Like could I make another theory as to why taekook ate mapping out each others moles, yeah, course I could but based on my own experience perception and no real clear arguement otherwise etc---the romantic reason is still the strongest supported to me.

So I don't have anything against theories just the way they're framed.

So yeah I guess that's my looong (sorry) story about how I accidently became a taekook shipper.

Hi again mole anon!

It’s really nice to hear your story actually. I think skepticism is definitely a good way to get into this. Also, props to Kayla @taekooktimeline for documenting so well 💜.

#taekook #fandom shenanigans

33 notes · View notes

starsreminisce · 3 months

Note

Not surprised shipping e/riel brings out the worst in people. I mean, Elain brings out the worst in Azriel emotionally and that’s not something anybody can deny. The ship and shippers are mirrors of each other. how cute.

You know what’s funny about that too?

I am really and truly a ship-and-let-ship person. I love watching anime, so if, given the right frame, someone will ship a broom and a lamp together.

And there are chill Elriels, and there are also Elriels who can engage respectfully. But those are few and far between the ones who spam 100 TikTok comments about why their ship is more valid, the ones who comment, reblog, offer unnecessary commentary on spaces that clearly don't belong to them, and those who feel the need to call people who don't believe in their ship delusional and lacking in reading comprehension.

Even more embarrassing when they should have read that I said Mor, not Rhys or Cassian, thought it wasn't a big deal, especially when she answered Feyre's question about whether he gave away TT while finding a piece of jewelry more interesting and then didn't expand anymore, including to reaffirm that it was a big deal to Az.

The "canon" proof they used is two males’ opinions carrying more weight over a female’s, the High Lord’s third in command, with a power that said High Lord utilizes quite often to gauge a potential ally and threat, and then doubling down that the female's opinion doesn't matter based on a line of dialogue from another man.

Maybe it was important, or maybe, just maybe, it still aligns with Az's characterization, his need to protect, and it wouldn't have mattered if Elain were the recipient of Truth-Teller. It's something that he would have done for Nesta, for Feyre or *gasp* maybe even Gwyn, and that's something Mor is well acquainted with Azriel over.

Then again, all of Elriel’s moments, especially in ACOWAR, are negated, overshadowed, and undermined by how he feels about Mor and how much Mor's attention to him affects him.

It's like what you said: we know Elain brings out the worst in Azriel emotionally, as he tells us as much in his perspective from a chapter that's both, according to them, canon to Elriel's but not canon to Azriel's declaration that he was proven right to stay away from Elain. Elain returning yet another thing he offered to her nor Gwynriel's moment when he shows that he's more at peace and doesn't think about his lack of self-worth when he's with her. Funny how Gwyn is "someone who he wouldn't go so far as to call a friend" actually calmed him down?

And it's also not surprising that they would put down Mor's importance and opinion in favor of their own ship while labeling Eluciens and Gwynriels as misogynists.

#antie/riel #antielriel #asks #mor acotar #pro morrigan #morrigan acotar #gwynriel

33 notes · View notes

indigoraysoflight · 9 months

Text

Be Strong, Dear Caryler.

Hi there, fellow Caryler.

The fandom is a CRAAAZY place right now. Everything feels chaotic and uncomfortable. You want to be excited but things feel uncertain. Perhaps you open your social media to find some good news but end up feeling confused, anxious, and frustrated. Maybe it doesn't even feel worth chasing the Caryl dream. S2 can't get here quickly enough, so you can see Caryl together again.

I hear you. I'm in the same place so I completely get it. No one can deny that last year was traumatizing in many ways. I'm sure you have feelings about it and your own way of dealing with those feelings.

If you're excited about the spinoff because you adore Daryl and want to see what happens before Carol gets there – that's valid. I hope you find what you're looking for from S1. If you're sad, hurt, and overall frustrated with the way things went down last year (and are dreading the possible ship baiting in S1), you're allowed to feel that way. Maybe you're conflicted and don't know where you stand. That's okay too.

YOUR FEELINGS ARE VALID. No matter what they are.

This is where I stand: AMC made it "untenable" for Melissa McBride to be in the spinoff because they moved it to France. AMC and other co-workers spoke on Melissa's behalf, but I only believe what she said (and/or didn't say). She decided to come back to us for S2. I trust her judgement and know she would only agree to what's best for herself and her character in S2. I think AMC still has a final say on things like the title, which is sad because her character deserves to be on it. So far, everything about S1 has made me anxious, so I am withholding my view. I only intend to tune in when I see my dealbreakers. I will watch S2 to support Melissa and Caryl.

We may or may not share the same perspective about what happened with the Caryl spinoff, the current spinoff, or last year's disaster – but I respect yours.

Please take care of yourself. This fandom can sometimes make you feel isolated and lonely – especially if you meet people you're not aligned with. I was fortunate to meet people in the fandom a few months ago (when I felt so alone, I was ready to quit) who were kind and supportive. They honoured my feelings and opinions regarding the show. That helped me honour and accept my own feelings about it – the good, bad and the ugly.

If you ever want some clarity, want someone to geek out about Caryl with or just need to chat with someone in the fandom, my ask box is open. I'll do my best to respond and talk to you.

Please remember that your mental health is the top priority. If you're struggling, please reach out to someone in your support system or get help. (Here's a directory of mental health crisis numbers)

We're all in this together. Caryl will always be endgame.

#caryl spinoff #melissa mcbride #darylneedscaryl #darylneedscarol #about this blog #caryl solidarity #caryl #carol x daryl #daryl x carol

47 notes · View notes

shioribara-eons · 10 months

Text

Ahem, why I think, Killugon is canon. An essay I wrote :3 ⚠️ ANIME SPOILERS ⚠️

Here I am going to explain why I think shipping Killugon is good, and why it is not a bad or toxic ship, as well as reasons it is going to be canon. This can also be for my own reasons, because if i seem to not like this ship in the future, i have a reason to tell why i did. Also or all those (omg yr gross don't ship that go oners) I DO use other websites from which I resourced this info on, but I made sure to list the places they came from. I also use other anime to compare, just based off my own personal viewing experiences. I HAVE WATCHED ALL 148 EP OF HXH, BUT HAVE NOT READ THE MANGA (just keep in note).

I WANT TO MENTION THIS COMES FROM A X MY HERO BAKUDEKU SHIPPER, WHICH I AM VERY ASHAMED OF. I quite dislike the Fandom and show now, for reasons I am not quite sure of myself, but as I moved to newer and newer, (and less toxic fandoms) I was able to view the Fandom from an outsiders viewpoint. I won't say that I was not apart of that Fandom once, because then I would be lying to myself.

Alright, now Killugon time.

So I'm saying this to combat all anti killugon shippers, who beleave the ship is toxic. I have a strong true belief that as long as you ship a non toxic, and happy relationship ship, that has meaning or shows reason for the ship to exist in the film, or if they are underage and not SEXULIZED, and if they are minors and not being shipped with people much older then them, oh and dont forget sibcest is completely violated, other wise then it is an okay ship. It is even better if there are even more obvious hints to the creator wanting the ship to be canon. Many people may combat me and explain how Killugon isn't canon, and therefore you may not ship it. I do know why people may feel that way, and I am completely excepting of it, particularly because I believe it as well. Even in this case it is not. I will not deny this ship is yet to be canon, but I will not hide the facts that show how deep and likely this ship to become canon, (even just particularly) because of the facts I have resourced on this. Case in point, the sole fact I ship it, even when it is not canon, is because it is particularly supported by the creators. I believe if the creators agree in some shape or form of this ship being shipped, and don't hate or dislike the ship, it is okay to ship it. Even so, if they ship it, (which is heavily shown in the non Canon movies of hxh as well as hunterpedia) it is still canon in a viewpoint. Think of it like this, if a anime show has it's main show or manga, but does not romantically ship two characters together, but does so in a ripoff or side series, they are still canon. If they are shipped by the creator, or heavily done so, even if it is not in the main series it is canon to the creator, and going to be canon and the ship has been sailed. I say this because if the creator wanted it to be canon, and shows that, it shows that the idea of them being together is valid. In this point, Togashi shows some hints and things in different shapes and forms to show they may be canon. Many people think they are just friends, but I also think the fact it is a gay ship takes into strong account. Think like this, if gon or killua was a girl, and one of them was a boy, I feel a lot more people would ship them, because to some people it just doesn't feel right. Some people may be homophobic, or the other half is the result of our society and biases. If that wasn't like that, I feel the other half of this Fandom would feel otherwise. Speaking of which, I would like to mention that most of this group (NOT INCLUDING TOXIC AND OVER AGED SHIPS LIKE HISOGON AND PALMGON) (hisoka's pedophilic behavior and overagedness with while palm and gon's date, it still violated the overaged rule, as well as being dropped in a comedic manner and shown as just a occurrence to add comedy and was nowhere near a serious canon.) This Fandom mostly includes people who ship Gon and Killua, or don't at all. There are people who ship Gon and Retz, which of course is a completely valid ship as long as they are not sexulized, and I would not bother them. Otherwise it's half and half. Mostly because people are against age, even so that the editor of hxh did not want it to be canon mostly because of age. Don't worry, I have ways again of combating that. Again, as long as they are not sexulized, meaning cuddles and subtle, non sexual kissing, and wholesome acts, are okay on my end. Anything above that, I am completely against. If it is labeled sexulized, I will stay strong to my will and avoid and defend against this act. It is not okay, even if they are fictional. I know that I do have to mention they are fictional characters, but for me it's not the case. Dispite them being fantasy, the sole idea is not okay.

I also compare a ship to real world to find if it is valid, either based on my own life or others. For me, I had a crush in 5th grade, when I was 12. Heck, I know people who had crushes at age 9, so it is fine. Even then, even if it is playful and wholesome, it's still considered a ship, even if it isn't a serious relationship, and are just shown getting closer in a subtle romantic fashion. Having crushes, blushing, having thoughts, and wanting to be closer to someone are all aspects that show a subtle romance, that is not serious, but a crush. Some can say love, but it is mostly not physically or mentally possible to "fall into love" at an age like 6, but teen love is a real thing. Look it up. At age 14, it is mentally and physically possible to fall in love. At age 14, I had a gf, and by the end of the anime, (starting at the anime they were 12) they were 14. Saying the manga is still currently going, one more year and they will be 15. The thing is with this though, is I still feel uncomfortable sexually shipping two characters that are minors, even if they are aged up in a au unless it is canon in the show or manga. I still steer away from that, I just still feel uncomfortable with the idea.

Anime from other shows can help too. Anya and Damian from spy x family are canon, whilst Anya being around a whopping 4 years old at the beginning of the anime, and Damian being 6 as well. This is shocking, for a canon ship, but is nevertheless real. Taking from that, a popular Fandom that is canon that I enjoy, Jibaku Shonen Hanako Kun, also shows 13 - 15 year old couple, a boy named Hanako and a girl Yashiro, mentioned and shown kissing and dating, and even mention being each other's boyfriend and girlfriend, then mentioned falling in love, so it's there, and we cannot ignore that fact that other animes have done the same, but for some reason people feel wrong with this Fandom. I will mention my favorite genre is romance, which might impact me, even when I have to watch shonens on my never ending to watch list, then end up shipping characters. I will say that combats that though, how teased to be canon this is. I actually tried my hardest not to ship them at the beginning, and kept in mind that they were just friends. Out of context, scenes that I saw just couldn't bring me to believe they were platonic. Even with context, it just makes it 10x more beleavable. I tried, but failed, and ended shipping them.

WHY I THINK IT IS GOOD AND HEALTHY TO SHIP THEM + CANON REASONS WHY THEY ARE CANON

In point, according to the anime and everything that happened, I actually believe that love is something that they need. Killua never really experienced love other from Alluka, and never even touched romantic. While Gon has dated several times, it was not out of feeling, and he did it to entertain or give to people that visited his island. And his date was Palm was forced as well, not put of romantic interest. So neither of them have really felt that before, but at least Gon had family that cared for him when he grew up (aunt mito) but killua just had alluka and was tortured and hated on a daily life. Killua definitely had a big impact with his sister/brother and believes it's okay to love and stay by the side of Alluka. The most probable purpose why Killua is more distant with Gon then Alluka, is because of the main aspect of thier friendship in the first place. Throughout the series, we learn that Killua isn't just a emotionless assassin, but was also taught to abandon anyone who seems to take a liking to him, and to never have friends, love, and eventually he would betray and kill them. That was how he was raised. Dispite this, Killua still had his curiosity get ahold of him, and he started to explore places he wasn't supposed to. Even starting from the first time Gon and Killua met. Keep in mind this is the first friend Killua OR Gon had, and this is a very big deal to them. Saying that killua had previously ran away from home, he had obtained a new profound confidence to try things he was restricted from exploring before. He made friends, and started getting closer and closer to Gon, to practically being by his side 24/7. He started to laugh, and feel, and do things he had never done before, and that is deep. To Killua, mentioned canon, that to him, Gon is light itself, Killua had always seen Gon better then him. Like the sun, that is so bright, he must avert his eyes. This statement is definitely not platonic, a normal platonic relationship wouldn't say something like that. To compare somebody to light is taking it a bit far. Some fans speculate this was the moment, when Killua fell in love. Fun fact: Killua would always walk behind Gon, because he didn't think he was good enough to walk by his side. Also included the "was glad he had met Gon" aspect, as well as him clearly blushing whenever Gon complimented him or told him he was happy they were together. Canon, whilst they were stargazing on Whale Island, Gon had randomly told Killua how happy he was to be with Killua, and how he wanted to travel with him around the world, then he wanted to stay by Killua forever, often a romantic statement. But Killua's priceless blushing and emberrament from that statement made this even better. In fact, Togashi himself was asked on a scene with Killua blushing repeatedly at Gon, and answered:

"The two hamsters are suspiciously close. They often kiss (or look like it) each other, although they are both male...."

YES THIS IS ACTUALLY FROM TOGASHI NOT FAKE I DIRECTLY COPIED IT NO EDIT. (Cute how he calls them hamsters lol) This shows he does in fact ship them. Not included Mariya Ise (Killua's va) saying Killua is in love with Gon + she studied Killua's character and said that in phantom rouge his feelings towards Gon is overflowing. As well as the artist of hxh, Niyua making romantic sketches of the two. Togashi also mentioned that he wanted it to be a gay anime, but rethought. He loves trans and gay mangas and books, and once wrote a gay manga. Hunterpedia is a whole other thing. Id like to say it was an excuse for them to put the two together in a romantic relationship that was out of the show and hope people wouldn't notice. But I mean, if you are going to put the two literally kissing and saying that it was fate they would be together, having several shipped scenes, and making jokes that are quite suspicious, somebody is going to say something. Nonshippers casualy always combat hunterpedia with, its not canon, but I just think they just personality don't like the ship if that is all they can come up with to combat hunterpedia. My saying is, : "It may be cringe, but it is the feeding ground for Killugon lovers" if you want to know more about Hunterpedia, look it up, there is plenty for everyone and it is stupid how obvious it is in Hunterpedia. Also, the 2011 director actually referred to the two as husbands, and that Killua is the wife and Gon is the husband (funny right? We love that.) There is also a merchandise ironically called Gon x Killua. Also, if you read the lyrics to both 1999 and 2011, you will unsurprisingly find them to be romantic. The shinju lover's suiside pact is a whole other story. Killua mentions to meloreon that he will commit lovers suiside (uses the word shinju) and Togashi does use the term for regular suicide but only uses lovers suiside for gon and killua. Lover's suiside takes two people. They must admit their love for each other and agree to die together. If the love is not mutual between and death not agreed to by both people it’s not a lovers’ suicide. It’s just death. A lovers’ suicide would never under any circumstances be agreed to between friends. This is strictly reserved for those having strong romantic love for one another and are determined to stay together even after death. No japanese author would confuse these words / terms and there is no explanation for otherwise. ( some info takes from starlight Amino) "

"Palm is shown emerging from her cocoon in her new ant form. Unknown to Killua who is charging up with electricity, he is telling Merelon (lizard guy) to go find Knuckle and see if they [Merelon and the others] need to retreat. Merelon asks what they [Gon and Killua] will do. Killua tells Merelon that he plans to go find Gon next, that in the state Gon is in he won’t budge from Pitou and retreat won’t be option and that “worst case scenario, it will be a lovers’ suicide.” Killua immediately tells Meleoron that he’s kidding, but Merelon does not believe him. This translation of the conversation between Meleoron and Killua comes from the original Japanese version of the Manga. The conversation in English versions of the manga and the anime is different. In some English translations Killua says 'double suicide' or the phrase 'go down in flames together' is substituted. However the Japanese term is very specific. This term was not a slip of Togashi as he uses the regular term for suicide previously in the story, and here in this conversation Killua uses this specific term referring to himself and Gon." https://aminoapps.com/c/hunter-x-hunter/page/blog/lovers-suicide-everything-you-wanted-to-know/o3dL_X8mCduqjdoJ7j8o4beJrkNexBjmpMl (THANKS TO STARLIGHT I WOULD NOT HAVE TIME TO EXPLAIN ALL THIS)

NEXT KILLUA'S BIRTHDAY TANABATA I

" Killua’s birthday is one that has a little more to sink your teeth into than the others. Because unlike hinamatsuri or Children’s Day, July 7th is a festival holiday with a myth attached to it. A tale of star-crossed lovers, almost literally, and one that is reflected in so many aspects of Killua’s life."

READ MORE HERE IF YOU ARE INTERESTED

"https://olivemeister.tumblr.com/post/144588334745/killua-july-7th-and-the-significance-of-his - FULL HERE

MORE so, Gon and Killua has been compared to some couple in old love stories lmfao. Thanks to you, you make me sure that Gon and Killua are meant to be lovers. From your meta, Gon and Killua's stories are inspired by several old love stories lmfao:

• Hikoboshi (Gon) & Orihime (Killua) (Tanabata, their story is like, 90% similar too Tanabata, since their stories are inspired from Tanabata)

• Orpheus (Gon) & Eurydice (Killua) (the whole Zoldyck family arc, except that Gon can bring Killua back alive, and Orpheus is kinda dumb for me, based on the story)

• (a bit of) Romeo (Gon) & Juliet (Killua) (since the Zoldyck family theme is inspired by R&J theme, and from what I've known, Juliet's family is kinda oppressive right? CMIIW)

Idk if it's right or not. And the funny thing is, Killua is always inspired by women, it makes me think that Killua is actually the heroine of Hunter x Hunter but with male body lmao.

SO YOU CAN READ MORE OR LOOK IT UP, BUT IT IS VERY SIGNIFICANT TO THESE FACTS STATED. https://telehxhtrash.tumblr.com/post/635033639292452864/so-gon-and-killua-has-been-compared-to-some

Hisoka also had mentioned, in anime as well completely canon, as the two as a straight couple, when they were talking about Alluka ' power. Basically, in some cases ( I still don't fully understand all of allukas power rules yet there are like a million) but I know that if you don't follow the rules then you and your most loved one will die. But in this case he referred killua to gon as "his most beloved" to die as a straight up couple. Not even mentioning killua's jealousy moments, like when he stalked gon and Palm on their "date" and even admitted to feeling like a stalker. He also got jealous of Gon having another friend, Retz in the movie, and proceeded to shove her to the ground in anger. Also, that one train ride that literally STARTED THE WHOLE MOVIE of hxh, with Killua straight up staring at sleeping Gon, from night to day, so probably for multiple hours, then when Gon awakened, he asked if Killua was staring at him, and Killua responded by clearly blushing and protested very loudly he was not, then Gon, whilst blushing as well, answered by teasing him, saying it was "very suspicious" of killua. Not mentioning all the other times Killua randomly staring at gon with strangely soft eyes and a smile, almost like it means something. But all seriousness, the way he was drawn to look at Gon, was certainly going far. Look it up and see for yourself. He had also once asked Gon if he had been on a date, while Gon said he had, and this bothered Killua a lot, then Killua mentions he had not been on a date. But then, he internally dialogs that he was about to give in, and thinks about Bisky telling him that if he doesn't do somthing about running away from friends and danger he would have to leave Gon's side. ( I previously mentioned this about the way he was raised, as well as I should mention he had a needle stuck in his brain by his older brother, Illumi.) And he was afraid he would betray Gon, like I mentioned before, a main aspect of their relationship. In the movie, Killua had also tried to commit suiside by standing in front of a train, solely because he had believed he had betrayed Gon by running away, but he was saved by Gon, who told him that Killua could betray him a thousand times, but he would still trust him., Talk about a strong "friendship".

There is also the intirerty of that one wholesome moment once when Killua was taking care of unconscious Gon, Killua gave Gon his shirt to keep him warm, but it's not just that, they always seem to be carrying each other. There is also the idea that seems to pop up a lot that Hunter x Hunter, is basically just the two hunters being shipped. Their nen types are also compatible, just right next to each other on the nen wheel. Their astrological signs are compatible as well, Gon being taurus and Killua being Cancer. Their blood types are also compatible, Gon being B and Killua being AB. (Hehehe sole mates) There is also the love umbrella, “Ai Ai Gasa,” “Love-love Umbrella.” You write your name on one side and your love’s name on the other. It’s what you draw when you have a crush on someone, or if you’re dating someone. The symbolism is basically two sweethearts sharing an umbrella, which is considered romantic in Japan.

There are Killua and Gon’s names written under the umbrella in the hunterpedia, in the back. There is also the time where they were facing against Nobunana, where Killua was going to sacrifice himself so Gon could escape, (they were trapped and he Nobunana was guarding the door) and Gon responded by angerly telling Killua that he shouldn't joke around about dying, then proceed to tell Killua that he should die instead, and then they argued about who would sacrifice themselves for the other for a solid amount of time.

When Gon had thanked Killua near the Greed Island arc( I think) Killua responded by internally saying

"You've got it backwards. Gon, I should thank you. I'm the one who's glad, I met you."

Sounds kinda gay to me.

Also when they were playing a very violent version of volleyball with Ging's friend, Killua's hands were beat up from Gon using his Jajanken to lanch the ball, (killua had to hold it) and so another guy( idk his name he doesn't show up again anyways) says that he can take over for killua, but then Gon INSISTS that ONLY killua can be the one who holds the ball :) Also, Gon told Killua, after killua realized he didn't know what to do with his life, Gon told him

"Killua, you'll stay with me! I love being together with you!"

Or in other cases (it's said differently in the things I watched)

"Killua will stay with me. Being together with Killua is fine by me."

Both sound adorable.

Even if that wasn't enough, Killua responds with clearly blushing and looking up at the sky, and internally says "I'll stay with Gon for now."

So the sole facts that come from these are here, and we cannot deny it. But many have different viewpoints and are all over the place. I feel that even if it did become canon, people would still disaprove. Compared to a lot of animes with ships, I would say this is one most likely to come true even just subtlety.

I want to say the MAIN REASON I SHIP THIS SHIP is not necessarily for my own individual enjoyment, but for the relationship in general. If they were a toxic relationship outside all the Fandom aus, then it wouldn't be right. But I feel I do have reason to ship them, because I like the idea of exsploring the aspect of Killua feeling love and friendship for the first time, which he has never felt before, and the idea of him learning about these feelings, would bring Killua's personal character development to next level. As for Gon, I think having sombody always there to help him, especially because he starts to learn about this dark world of hate and death (when Kite died) and for him to have some other form of comfort that would aid him and his development as well. This idea of relationship of healing really warms my heart, and makes it feel a bit different from other ships based solely on personal enjoyment, because it shows a much darker, but more meaning to the ship. It makes the ship what it is, and I believe that is what holds Killugon together. It's the aspect, or idea, or want to explore this beautiful friendship. The one thing I do want to avoid personally, is getting my hopes too high for this ship. But based on the YouTube videos I've seen, and things I resourced, if you look into it it just gets hard and harder to deny. Every single thing I've seen has debates usually ending in yes, they are canon and Killua has a crush on Gon (or it could be a one sided crush just Killua) or something called.... a platonic crush? What? Okay but for real, the hints shown strongly debat but also combat itself at the same time. There are no clear signs which Killua is attracted to one gender or other, so we would never know unless Togashi confirms somthing.

FINAL THOUGHT

Yes, they are about I would say 90 maybe 80% likely to be canon, ONLY BECAUSE it's a Shonen , not a romance and was not heavily focused on that, BUT many shonens like that have sailed ships so could possibly change dramatically, also people might hate the show if it was canon, as well as it not validly canon in the show, BUT Togashi as well as other actors (voice actors and animators) 99.99% SHIP them, which raises it's chances to be sailed. SO YES, Killua does have a crush on Gon, shown in many was that cannot be denied wrong, but it's all in the way people view it. But I think it is wayyyyy too close to be called platonic. At times, it does feel like a romantic anime based on Killuas reactions toward Gon. The only thing holding this ship back is whether Togashi wants to go back to his old days and continue his writing for gay animes. And this hints shown are just too strong, like they want us to ship it, which could possibly be their intention. I don't think they would add in the things the way they did if they didn't want Killugon shippers. Also remember, the manga isn't over yet.

All in all, yes, this ship is nearly to be sailed, even just subtlety, and it is an very healthy ship, canon fact wise.

#killua x gon #hunter x hunter #killugon #hunterxhunter #gonkillu #hxh #gon x killua

53 notes · View notes

brujitaadinbo · 5 months

Text

I am happy and a little nervous to start here. English is not something I master, so please let's go slowly. If you don't understand something, you can ask before anything.

I have a lot to say and I hope to gather more friends than anything else. I am open to dialogue but I repeat, insulting is not an argument and you leave. I have seen how Duo Din and Bo katan have coexisted during these seasons; I never expected that this interaction would deepen from the fact of giving each other the opportunity to open up and get to know each other.

I don't deny that at first I didn't see something between them; because I was more distracted by the action of the series and the euphoria. But my opinion completely changed in the season 3 finale.

When I saw how Grogu protected his father and in that process, I included Bo (and I'm not saying that he saw her as a mother but he saw the need to protect her, feeling her closer and part of him) So I change my perspective to this season.

I had to rewatch the series several times, hahaha I'm not lying and it makes me laugh but I did it. Then I started to see those little details between Din and Bo katan. Certain parallels and how hatred came to be appreciated. Since there were signs of flirting, he added verbal and body language, non-verbal language, approaches and even the dialogues, the music. A way to pair them, but not as a cliché couple, as they always portray us. With that cliché romance that always repeats itself; no no

Here they were giving things a process, this type of relationship in which both come wounded, with doubts, with traumas, something that must be slow because if not, it won't end up cooking. And living in a world like the one we live in, where survival is substantial, it is very likely that you empathize with them, understand them and understand how they have done what they have done and how they walk hand in hand.

I do not want to come to talk for the sake of talking and I will try to take all the visible and documented elements to show that indeed; There was no romance as such in this season between them, but there were romantic overtones, there was subtle interaction of this type between them, so much so that Grogu realized that something in Bo was changing. Being sensitive in those aspects, come on, that cannot be hidden from the child.

I have also seen how because of all this, toxic fandom and harmful people have given themselves the right to criticize, mock and attack. I understand it's Star Wars, without generalizing, don't expect many to understand or be mature or allow themselves to question or see beyond their own very personal visions and tastes.

But as I say; Your tastes are clouding the panorama or denying a palpable reality just because something is not to your liking and attacking it. More than sad, it's pathetic. Although anything can happen in The Mandalorian and no one can deny it, if we talk about possibilities, then I tell you, the possibility of something healthy developing is there!!! among them like so many ships from other SW content and clearly those little messages have been there for a reason.

"You don't talk about what you don't know" I love that Din said that. Because if you do not take the time to objectively question this union, to see the content again, you will continue in that ignorance of the elements, which is not just me (because it is not just my opinion, I base it on other aspects) Many others

I would like SW to understand that it is not just a bias of the population or of a certain country that has fans or fandoms about its content. We must give priority to everyone, this is a global phenomenon, seen in many places. And although the program has a family focus, nothing is an obstacle for them to show that no matter what it is, who it is, feelings and emotions are also valid and allow us to surround ourselves with positive people, becoming someone better for those who little by little have entered our hearts. No matter how badass, how Mandalorian, or where you want to be from. No matter the conflict or situation you are going through. Star Wars is based on human emotions and love is not left out of this.

are proving it and they only come to silence them.

#the mandalorian #bo katan x din #dinbo #this is the way #bokadin

22 notes · View notes

utilitycaster · 5 months

Note

This feels like a weird thing to ask someone but I greatly respect your ability to speak your honest critical opinion (and in such well spoken terms) in an internet atmosphere where you can get crucified for saying anything less than full-throated praise--and that's exactly my issue. I run a small, fandom-oriented Youtube channel and despite knowing that I'm entitled to critical opinions, that I don't even want the attention of delusional reactionaries anyway, etc etc I'm finding it incredibly difficult to share what I really think of some shows + aspects of fandom and shipping. I've become weirdly terrified of saying one perfectly logical thing that does not align with the elaborate fantasy some people have built in their heads and getting canceled/losing the small base of followers I've managed to cobble together. The real nightmare is sharing something harmless like a shipping opinion and having purity culture come for me and call me a p*dophile for absolutely no reason. But at the same time I feel like a spineless coward for letting the toxic side of fandom win by scaring me into silence, especially when one of my goals for the channel from the beginning was to create a place where level headed critical opinion could be shared without fear of gross overreaction and slander. So I guess my questions are: is it as easy for you to speak honestly as it seems? Have you ever flinched before? Is it just about not caring what irrational people think or is there something else to it I'm missing? Sometimes it feels like my fears are valid and sometimes it feels like I just need to grow a backbone and get over it already.

Hey anon,

So I think there is one really big factor here: I am posting anonymously and facelessly and I don’t mind if I alienate people on the basis of an opinion I genuinely hold. If you’re actively trying to build a following and/or if you’ve made yourself identifiable, then I do in fact understand holding back more for reasons of trying to keep that following, or for reasons of personal safety.

But yeah: it’s mostly just that strangers who send anon hate don’t know jack shit about my life or me as a person; they just see an opinion that, as you said, challenges the elaborate fantasy in their head and attack the person who said it. I have, genuinely, been told things that I know for myself to be demonstrably false about my life (not even opinions about me I reject - demonstrably false things) by people who are ultimately just mad that I don’t like their characters or ships. I would obviously feel terrible if a person I knew in real life accused me of something terrible, and I’d still feel bad if it were someone I interacted with online with any sort of regularity, but someone hiding behind complete anonymity? They’re not calling me names because they genuinely think I’m bigoted. They’re calling me names because they are willing to use tools to try to drag me down because they cannot accept I don’t feel the same way they do about a character. They’re like when conservatives claim that denying service to queer people is religious freedom - they are using what appears to be a legitimate appeal to ostensible shared values, but really they’re exploiting the system and people's desire to take things in good faith because they can't stand not getting their way.

The other thing, and I recognize how much I sound like my parents here, is that your bullies are thinking about you more than you think about them. Anyone who sends hate desperately wants you to agree with them. Show them you are not thinking of them.

And finally, some of the hate I’ve gotten has genuinely been about the most anodyne things, which ironically helps because once you realize that no matter how bland an opinion is, some asshole will foam at the mouth about it. Like, again, I definitely talk plenty of shit about ships or characters or choices I don’t like, but I got some wildly out of pocket shit from people who apparently could not tolerate the completely random example I used to illustrate a fairly uncontroversial and popular opinion re: ship tagging on ao3. And once something like that happens you realize that there’s no point in avoiding the spicier stuff.

I don’t know if this helps, and I recognize that I happen to have a particularly contrarian and not remotely conflict-averse personality. I respect the many people who are not willing to put up with hate and I don’t blame you if you’re one of them; at points in my life I have not been in a place to put up with it and was much less outspoken. But in the end, the thing about people who harass you is that they care so, so much about you agreeing with them, and if you tell them a flat firm no while also making it clear you don’t give a shit if they ever agree with you, they do tend to eventually give up upon realizing how one-sided their obsession is.

#answered #Anonymous #on fandom

19 notes · View notes

rachelillustrates · 1 year

Text

More thoughts on Thorin Oakenshield

Particularly on his rapid-rehab over the Gold-sickness - which is a scene I think about often, being in recovery myself (9 years 8 months sober, btw 🌼).

So considering that this all happens within like 2 to 5 minutes maybe - plus however long it takes him to walk from the throne room of Erebor to the Gallery of Kings, which we don't see - I think we have to take into consideration where he is coming from, which is the moment in which Dwalin tried to stand up to him. Then, he responded by a) berating himself, as he is - basically calling crownless-Thorin-Oakenshield a nothing, and b) literally threatening to kill Dwalin. And that came right after he denied his kin in general when the battle started, and THAT came right after he tried to throw Bilbo - arguably his plot-relevant Love, whether you ship it or not (thanks to @sonickitty for this amazing post) - from the ramparts whether or not he would have been able to go through with it notwithstanding, since Gandalf interrupted him to help get Bilbo out of there.

Those are three big, emotional things that force him to hole up further into his sickness, but also call him out at the same time, which I think is evident in how coldly desperate he looks when he tells Dwalin to go "before I kill you." Part of him knows he is losing it - as much as he clings to the gold fever, as if its a reassurance. As if it's security, after nearly a lifetime of uncertainty, which would be really, really easy to rationalize away as a "valid" and "reasonable" thing.

(Which is textbook addictive behavior, btw. "I need this because.... It's all right because....")

And I think it's telling, then, that he ends up in the Gallery instead of the treasury.

Part of that was likely a plot-design choice, since that's where they almost defeated Smaug and that shiny gold floor makes for some amazing visuals in his hallucinations. BUT. Looking at it from a Watsonian perspective, I think that him going there - choosing the place of the Company's almost-victory, instead of the place of his grandfather's defeat - speaks volumes about the part of him that wants to stop.

And then, we get a look inside his brain - all those overlapping voices, all the reminders of what is happening to him, how he has acted, and who he was before. The faith his people had in him. All as a cacophony - until Bilbo's voice, at which point there is no more overlapping. Just Bilbo speaking loud and clear - "You are changed, Thorin." - and then "I am not my grandfather," just as had been interspersed with the other voices, too, but now as clear and uninterrupted as his recall of Bilbo's words. And they are, first, the words he spoke to him on the ramparts - when he, the most emotionally close to him (since Fíli and Kíli are still following orders and are under that obligation to him as their King, family bonds therefore notwithstanding) finally called him out for who he'd become, followed by what he said to him in the mithril scene, when he failed to reach him earlier (seeing as a certain King Under the Mountain got distracted in his illness and warped their affection into "you are a shiny thing for me to protect and apparently not listen to"). Which, I know they didn't include the "our honor - I was also there" part of the line, but that came right after "is this treasure truly worth more than your honor," so even with that unsaid that loops him right back into that emotional bond and the fact that Bilbo does know, and care for, who he really is. And calls him to stand for it.

At which point, he sees the shadow of a dragon in the gold, as if swimming through it - which I think is supposed to stand for the fact that he has taken Smaug's place, in intention, but on a very quiet note, because: then, the clarity of speech continues, with Gandalf proclaiming that this treasure will be his death. Gandalf as much as he's a douche and they haven't always gotten along being the closest thing to one of the Powers, to his own Maker, that he has ever met or is likely to physically meet in this life.

I think that was deliberate.

From a recovery standpoint, hitting bottom often starts with emotional appeal from one's loved ones (Dwalin, Bilbo) but doesn't stick until spirituality gets involved, so this seems - again, from my own experience - to be a subtle way to pull that in after leaning heavily on his emotional connections.

Which is followed, of course, by the hallucination - his vision - of the gold of the floor literally swallowing him whole, and smoothing back over as if nothing had ever happened. Just like it would have looked if they had buried Smaug there. He would really be nothing, then. Forgotten, maybe, even.

That, and Gandalf's words, really touch on Thorin's own will to survive - yes, we've gotten reminders of what actions he's taken in the illness, and what's happening to others as a result, BUT if someone in addiction doesn't want to live - and thus, doesn't want to break out of it - nothing genuine can be done. They have to want to survive. They have to want to recover. So we get that, here, with those words and seeing the gold kill him in the same manner that he (and the Company) tried to kill Smaug.

To which we get the answer of that excellent far-away shot of him throwing off the crown, looking so small in the vast, empty, golden space.

(And then his bewilderment, kind of dreamily coming out of it, looking at the floor - the crown itself, probably - as if in a trance, and then slowly and subtly back up and out around himself.)

The next scene we get of him is not much later - we get a quick look outside, see that Dain is calling his forces back to the mountain, and Azog believes he is killing it (strut, sir), then we snap right back to the Company. Which Thorin joins, now in really not enough leather armor instead of the heavy plate mail.

Bare of all the trappings of his status - back to Thorin Oakenshield, again, who was always already good enough in the first place 💙 And, the first thing he does is make amends the best way he can under the circumstances. He hears Kíli's grievance, he validates his feelings, and he shows up for the reality around himself and the people under his care.

"I have no right to ask this of any of you (which is pretty close to an apology) but will you follow me, one last time?" (Which is a declaration of action, intent. What he is gonna do now to make it right, truly himself again.)

He sounds resigned, but with acceptance. Like he knows that they're likely going to their death - all of them - but he can't do this alone, and doing this is the right thing, in any and all cases.

Considering that recovery from addiction usually takes years of suffering (and then years of work), that the stage direction/scripty goodness was all of one line, and looking at what we see both before that scene and after it, I think they did a pretty incredible job. To my knowledge, in the book, we get very little of this at all - Thorin comes into the battle still full-armored, we don't see his thought process about that choice (vs. staying in the mountain), and he doesn't acknowledge his wrongs until he's on his deathbed. So for his illness, on this level, to have been addressed at all, let alone with this depth, is a gift.

I am quite impressed and grateful.

More LoTR/The Hobbit meta here.

#thorin oakenshield #recovery #tolkien #lotr meta #bagginshield #otp #writing #inspiration #meta

89 notes · View notes