#lotr meta
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WHERE NOW THE HORSE AND THE RIDER-Aka how I just had a Tolkien related freak out on the train
I can't believe what just happened to me. As in, it's such a weird chain of events that it has left me a little dizzy.
I was reading "Les Nourritures Terrestres" by Gide, and I got to a point he cites parts of a poem which I liked very much. The notes informed me that it's a French translation of "an 8th century saxon elegy called 'The Wanderer' "
That intrigued me, and, being on a train with a lot of time to pass (plus being a little tired of reading in French), I took out my phone and searched for the poem.
I found it here. It's the lament of a warrior in exile who has lost his lord and mourns the joy and glory of a world that has now disappeared. I was enjoying it a lot.
And then I got to this point:
And my mouth actually dropped open, because what?
Are you telling me that the Lament for the Rohirrim, one of my favourite poems in LOTR, which I learnt by heart at 13 and later took care to learn in the original English, which I sing when I do the dishes and which routinely makes me cry, is Tolkien's translation of an 8th century Saxon elegy?
Well, the notes at the end of the page confirmed it:
"Tolkien's rendition is hard to resist" I bet it is. I love that professional philologists add notes to their work saying "yeah, by the way, this bit here? It's in your favourite fantasy novel, and I am kinda jealous of how well it was translated, but it's Tolkien, the man spoke Old English, what can you do? Carry on, xoxo"
I mean, I had gathered that the Tolkien poem played on themes used in medieval literature, but I had no idea it was based on an actual, specific text. That makes it a hundred times cooler!
Maybe it's common knowledge, but it was a delicious tidbit of good news to me. Especially since I wasn't expecting it in the least, so I was blindsided by it.
Cherry on top? I had ignored the Old English text, since I don't understand it, but at the end I gave it a cursory read , and the line "Alas for the splendor of the prince"? "Eala þeodnes þrym!"
Now, I have never studied Old English, but I know roughly how to pronounce it (what kind of Silmarillion fan would I be if I didn’t recognize the thorn?). þeodnes has to be where "Theoden" comes from, right?
Apparently yes. I googled the "Lament for the Rohirrim", and Tolkien Gathaway has a nice little parapraph in which they explain all this. I don't know why I had never read it before, but it was a lot more fun learning it as an unexpected detour from my French practice, not gonna lie.
Bottom line: Tolkien was a both a nerd and a genius and continues to make my life brighter, and this is one of those moments in which I am very happy I have spent years of my life learning languages.
Thanks for coming to my impromptu TedTalk.
#tolkien#lotr#rohirrim#rohan#theoden#meta#lotr meta#I feel like a kid at christmas#lament for the rohirrim#poetry
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The mithril shirt makes me so emotional. The way that Thorin gave it to Bilbo out of an act of love, even when he was deep in the gold sickness. It represented what they could have had. When Thorin and his nephews die, Bilbo leaves with the shirt, the only reminder he has of him. He then donates it to the Mathom-house, because he cannot bear to see it, again, a reminder of the terrible ending of his journey. When he departs from the shire, he brings with him the mithril shirt for his last adventure.
He never even knows how valuable the armour truly is, how it was worth. And the FACT that Gandalf never told him probably leans to the idea that it would only remind Bilbo of what happened on the adventure. (We see how Bilbo's way of grief is denial, he never tells the true story, only child-versions of it so it doesn't feel real). Many years later, he gives it to Frodo, in hopes it would protect him, in a way that it didn't for him. Bilbo sent him off to a perilous journey and prayed that his wouldn't end in tragedy like his.
But It saves Frodo's life, and god the PARRELS of Thorin failing to save his nephews, but saved Bilbo's nephew. In the the Tower of Cirith Ungol, the mithril shirt causes the orcs to fight over it. Remember, it was borne out of an act love, and orcs hate everything about light, so it was almost like an act of vengeance that they only saw the value in the mithril, and not how Bilbo saw it (love) which causes them to kill each other. This allows Sam to save Frodo and THIS is the most emotional scene about the mithril shirt for me. Thorin and Bilbo's story ended but it allows Sam and Frodo's to continue.
The mouth of Sauron takes possession of it, and mocks the remaining fellowship. Imagine how Gandalf must have felt in that moment. He knew what it meant already. How he would have to tell Bilbo that the mithril shirt, the one that already invoked his mourning now held the only thing left of his beloved nephew, who he loved like a son. The regret he must feel, for the both of them. No wonder in his wrath, he retrieves the mithril shirt.
Of course, Frodo is alive and the chain mail is returned to his possession. By then the shirt has saved his life twice. I think that Bilbo's thoughts on the shirt shifted, no longer a reminder of what he lost, but what has been saved. Now we dont know if it goes to Valinor with them, I’d like to think it did, but another idea is that Frodo gave it to Sam. It goes in full circle like Thorin giving it Bilbo then Frodo giving it to someone he loved.
it becomes a family heirloom and is passed down through the family, through the Gamgee's descendants. A final act of love.
Maybe I look to much into things and this is just a string of ramblings. Maybe this was a pointless analysis with a clear bias to my favorite ships then an actual true interpretation to the text. Either way, the mithril shirt makes me feel a sense of loss, love and hope. There is something more then a piece of armour that saved the protagonist. One cannot deny how valuable it is to the story.
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Just the thought of Frodo going throughout his whole journey believing Gandalf was dead, and wondering if any of the fellowship after their parting survived is so unbelievably heartbreaking
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Tolkien: "I think you misunderstand Faramir."
I think you misunderstand Faramir. He was daunted by his father: not only in the ordinary way of a family with a stern proud father of great force of character, but as a Númenórean before the chief of the one surviving Númenórean state. He was motherless and sisterless (Eowyn was also motherless), and had a 'bossy' brother. He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fair-minded and scrupulously just, and very merciful.
I think he understood Eowyn very well. Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul).
I did not, naturally, go into territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting, and in the earlier years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence.
A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and a least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor.
from The Letters of JRR Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter, letter no. 244, a draft to a critical reader
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Ok I know this has been said before and more eloquently than I can rn (it's past midnight and I should be sleeping)
But the older I get, the more important it becomes to me that Eowyn is in a really dark place mentally when we first meet her in the book. That she rides to war out of suicidality, to get herself killed in battle. And that she heals, finds the will to live, finds the desire to heal things and make things beautiful rather than attempting to give her life meaning through dying a "glorious" violent death in battle.
I think when I was 12-ish and first read the book (or had it read to me as a bedtime story, rather, but same difference), I liked her because "oh look cool girl warrior character who doesn't do what she's told and defeats the monstrous evil bad guy no one else could kill!" And that is. that's fair, honestly. I was 12. I don't think I would want my 12-year-old self to have fully grasped the implications of Eowyn's actions, to have really understood that underlying despair and suicidality. I liked cool warrior girl heroes (I still do, honestly). And Eowyn does do amazing things, she is a hero, she does fulfill the prophecy and kill the Witch King, and it is cool, I'm not saying it isn't.
But like. Living in this world, reading the news, a lot of times I end up feeling just this utter despair and horror and helplessness at the bad things happening. And because of that, I really do end up feeling it when I look at Eowyn and see her despair, see how she's trying to die in battle because she doesn't want to go on living like that anymore and because she thinks her death in battle would make more difference and be more meaningful than her going on living.
And it's just so important to me that then at the end of the story, she's able to look at where she is and who she is and look at the world and go "no, actually, I want to live. I've had enough of death, I want to heal things, I want to make other people and other things also live". That she's able to want that, and believe that she is able to achieve that, that her life can have a purpose and meaning beyond a death worth telling a story about, and that that's something she wants to do, wants to work towards. It is just so important to me
Like, LOTR is in so many ways a story about hope and despair, it's present in damn near every character we meet in some way. And maybe it's just because I imprinted on Eowyn as a kid that her story in particular and her being able to overcome the despair and be hopeful about life again is so important to me but like. Fuck. The more horrible things I see happening everywhere in the world all around me, the more important Eowyn's story and her being able to find peace and healing becomes to me
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So desolate were those places and so deep the horror that lay on them that some of the host were unmanned, and they could neither walk nor ride further north. Aragorn looked at them, and there was pity in his eyes rather than wrath...
- thinking about how in his wwi service tolkien probably heard of or personally witnessed shellshocked soldiers being court martialled & even executed for desertion when their trauma disabled them. in his stories he gives them the mercy they were denied in life.
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Queen Arwen of Gondor
#eldarion#arwen#aragorn#aragorn x arwen#arwen undomiel#arwen evenstar#lotr arwen#the lord of the rings#the two towers#return of the king#jrr tolkien#tolkein#middle earth#the silmarillion#valinor#gondor#lord of the rings#lotr meta#lotr fanart#lotr
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So I've been thinking about Glorfindel's horse recently, okay? (I'm listening to these delightful audio books, and just got to Rivendell.) And I am as ever caught by the inconsistency of Asfaloth's tack with Legolas's later "lol what's a saddle? get rid of that shit man, I'm an elf!" schtick in Rohan. And the question that all of that (plus Gandalf and Shadowfax of course) engenders is why the fuck wasn't Glorfindel "riding elvish style" then?
While the Doylist explanation of "Tolkien hadn't come up with that idea yet + Frodo needed to be able to both hold-onto and steer Asfaloth and he isn't an elf so he had to have a saddle" makes sense, it's obviously not satisfying from an in-universe standpoint, is it?
(And somebody made some extremely good points laying-out a very convincing logistical explanation recently, and I like it quite like a lot, and might well use that in fics myself sometime because it's splendid and seems extremely legit, and opens up some fun things to play around with re: elvish history and culture; but while it's an extremely satisfying answer in terms of Accurate World Building Detail, it's never felt entirely viscerally satisfying to me in terms of Tolkienian Style, if you follow me.)
So I posit: what if the reason why Asfaloth had Conveniently Mortal-Appropriate Tack during that section of story was for the convenience of mortals?
Specifically, the Dúnedain.
What if when the Elves of Rivendell are doing something that involves (or might potentially involve) both horses and their human allies, they put enough tack on their horses to allow one of the Rangers to be able to use that horse in a pinch? That would make sense, right? Just a simple little practical precaution!
Imagine being in a situation where you want to stick one of your human companions on your horse for some reason, or you want one of them to look after your horse for a little while you go off and do a thing, etc etc, but you can't because there aren't any reins. And now you're fucked. What a silly self-inflicted problem that could be avoided with just a little bit of planning ahead!
So, because Glorfindel knew that the Rangers would also be searching around looking for Frodo and/or evidence of the Nine, he put just enough extra tack on Asfaloth that if he, for instance, found an injured mortal in the wild, he could put them on his horse and send them back to Rivendell without him...just as a random example of a hypothetical situation that might happen.
(Anyway, that's the headcanon I'm going to be running with from here out, I think. Also I've gone and retroactively added a little scene revolving around this explanation to my Celebrimbor Fellowship AU fic, for anyone who's been interested in that story.)
*Thoughts and arguments welcome!
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the Lord of the Rings is a story about some guys. There are women in the story, but they are not for the most part the main characters. James Bond, likewise, is a story about guys where women are side characters. But the Lord of the Rings does not exclude women from the narrative or give the impression of a “boys club” in the way that James Bond does, despite the fact the James Bond has more women in it. The problem is not with how many women are represented, but whether women are welcome in the worldbuilding. There is no more issue with writing a story about a group of guys than a group of girls, both of which are groups it is okay to have. But the men in James Bond are a group because they are misogynist, whereas the fellowship is a group of guys because they like hanging out with each other, and when women show up they’re thrilled to hang out with them too. In this essay I will…
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---the old man was Gandalf the Wizard, whose fame in the Shire was due mainly to his skill with fires, smokes, and lights. His real business was far more difficult and dangerous, but the Shire-folk knew nothing about it. To them he was just one of the 'attractions' at the Party. Hence the excitement of the hobbit-children. 'G for Grand!' they shouted, and the old man smiled.
Can we just briefly appreciate the absolute, delightful whimsy of Gandalf's firecracker business? Like, he has no particular need to use his talent with fire to produce elaborate fireworks, but he does it anyway, simply because he enjoys it and it brings joy to other people.
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so i’m rereading lord of the rings and i’ve gotten farther than i have in any of my previous reread attempts - i’m in rotk right now - and what’s really sticking out to me, and also something i’ve never noticed before, is this theme of, like, the anxiety of surveillance? of being watched?
like yeah there’s the big eye of sauron, we all know her. but i’m also talking about the palantir and how part of its power is the ability to see across distance. the way the ring messes up your vision when you wear it but it also makes you invisible. how everyone describes the awfulness of being seen by the nazgûl and watched from overhead. the mirror of galadriel and the visions they saw. frodo and sam being unable to see in shelob’s cave. frodo constantly talks about how horrible it is to feel exposed when they’re walking in open areas. (i think others do too but frodo is really particularly and understandably disturbed by it.) i’m sure there are other examples but i haven’t been writing them down.
idk i just haven’t ever read any analysis on this particular theme and so i’m throwing this out there in case any smart lotr nerds see it who wanna infodump on me about it!
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I love that Frodo technically failing the quest and succumbing to the Ring wasn't a plot twist completely out of left field. Of course for weeks we have seen him getting worse, we've seen him telling Sam he's doing worse, that taking the Ring from him would break his mind, and Sam has also witnessed this and had this very idea, especially from his short time carrying the Ring. So there is that, but when you think about it, the madness of the Ring has been with us and on our pages/screens for a while--in the form of Gollum! He is literally leading Frodo to Mordor, and he starts getting worse, and he tries to kill Frodo and Sam. And then he's following them through Mordor, constantly hunting them. His madness has been after him the entire time, even when Gollum was following them in Moria and afterwards, even when Frodo didn't yet feel so lost to the Ring. He's always been there. What better way to destroy the Ring than to have the physical representation of its madness fighting Frodo, who is now also lost to it? So Frodo's madness was always there, always following him, watching him. Gollum is not just a parallel to Frodo and what's happening/what could happen to him, but the thing he is fighting to begin with.
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As Tolkien often observed; “names often generate a story” and always nearly contributed or suggested something of the nature or personality of the character, thing or place that has been named. Yet the most intriguing name he has created in my opinion, is the main protagonist of “The Hobbit” Bilbo Baggins who is the hero of the classic tale, and despite being seen as such, his name holds interesting and contradicting connotations. For Baggins suggests harmless, humble and well- contented characters (though with criminal undertones!) Yet the name Bilbo suggests an individual who is sharp, intelligent and even dangerous….
The family name of Bilbo is “Baggins” which derives from a double source-the English Somerset surname Bagg, which means “moneybag” or “wealthy.” The term “Baggins" itself means “afternoon tea or snack between meals” and at first is appropriate in describing our well off hobbit. Initially he is presented as a mildly comic, home-loving, upper middle class “gentle hobbit” who seems harmless and composed enough, if given to some annoyance. He is mostly concerned with his mothers dishes, doilies, domestic comforts and food. However, once recruited by Thorin and his Company, we see the respectable gentle hobbit reveal his true colours- he is an excellent and highly skilled burglar.
Tolkien has maintained that his tales are often inspired by names and words from the real world, and indeed, in the jargon of the nineteenth-and early twentieth century criminal underworld there were a cluster of names around the term “bag” and forms of theft. “To bag” means to capture, to acquire, or to steal. “A baggage man” is an outlaw who carries off the loot and a “bagman” is the man who collects and distributes gold on the behalf of others by dishonest means or purposes.
His surname not only characterises himself, but also plots out the narrative for the story. For in the hobbit we discover Baggins is hired by Dwarves to bag the Arkenstone. He then becomes the baggage man who carries off the loot. When he realises Thorin has fallen under the gold sickness, he becomes the bagman and is dishonest to the newly crowned king, distributing the Arkenstone to Thrandruil and Bard. After the Battle Of The Five Armies he hands out the treasure to those who are rightfully in need of it, and thus ends him being the bagman.
Another aspect of Bilbo Baggins character can be revealed by the analysis of his first name. The word “Bilbo” entered the English language in the late sixteenth century as a name for a short and deadly piercing sword of the kind once made in the Spanish port city of Bilbao where the name derives from. This is an excellent description of Bilbo's elvish sword (often called a letter opener) named “Sting.” Found in the troll hoard, Bilbo's “bilbo” can pierce through any animal hide that would break any other sword. In The Hobbit however, it is the hero's sharp wit rather than his sword that gives Bilbo his sharpness. Bilbo's well-honed wits allow him to survive the journey and to trick monsters, a dragon and to get himself out of bad situations.
When we put these two names together as Bilbo Baggins, we fully understand the two aspects of his character, showing someone who is dangerously witty, but ultimately good and humble to a fault. If we want to dig deeper into how these names also affected the events of the Lord Of The Rings, one has to look no further than Frodo Baggins.
Along with the Baggins family name, further “baggage” is passed on to Bilbo's nephew and heir, Frodo Baggins who in the context of the one ring is a link to another underworld occupation; the bagger or the bag thief. This bagger or bag thief has nothing to do with baggage, but is derived from the French word bauge, meaning “ring.” A bagger then, is a thief who specialises in stealing rings by seizing a victim's hand and stripping off its rings. It had common usage in Britain's criminal underworld between 1890 to 1940. The Baggins name holds the idea and plot for both The Hobbit and Lord Of The Rings. For Bilbo's skill as a burglar, one might say that in the perspective of outsiders, the Baggins baggers of Bag End, Bilbo and Frodo, are naturally born ring thieves.
#tolkien#bilbo baggins#frodo baggins#bilbo#frodo#lotr meta#meta#analysis#linguistics#the hobbit#hobbit#hobbits#i spent way to long researching this#lotr#silm
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Just imagine the guilt and heartbreak Frodo felt after Gandalf fell into the deep of Moria. He was given the decision to choose where to go. I can only imagine the weight he would have felt moments after they lost him and as time went on.
#lotr#the lord of the rings#lord of the rings#lotr meta#Frodo baggins#Gandalf#Gandalf the grey#fotr#southfarthing
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sometimes i randomly remember that pippin is the younger brother of a hobbit assassin girlie
#pearl took#jrr tolkien#tolkien#lord of the rings#pippin took#lotr#lotr meta#lotr shitpost#from my pocketses
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Hi, wanna cry?
From Return of the King, “Many Partings”:
From Return of the King, “The Scouring of the Shire”:
@novelmonger just pointed out something that I’d been thinking about: Both Frodo and Sam have these moments that they’re reunited with their elderly father figures, and both father figures are surprised to find that the returning adventurers had “lost” one of their belongings along the way. For Bilbo, it’s the Ring; for the Gaffer, it’s Sam’s “weskit”, his waistcoat.
And it just makes me think—I can’t put words to it exactly, but there’s some strange ache there, like an old wound that throbs under the domestic humor of these moments—something about young soldiers returning home, fundamentally different from what they were when they left, and their loved ones being surprised that they are no longer the same, that they lost something, lost a part of themselves…
As if they expected that their little boys could go on a journey like that and not come back changed.
#frodo baggins#bilbo baggins#samwise gamgee#gaffer gamgee#lord of the rings#lotr#lotr meta#sad stuff goes in a separate post#i wanted to keep the doodles funny :-P
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