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Hart House Changemakers - Kimahli Powell: LGBTQI+ Individuals & the Search for Home

Recorded October 26, 2022.

Sako:

Welcome to the Changemaker Series presented to you by Hart House Conversations. This is a series of fireside style chats between John Monahan, the Warden of Hart House, and inspiring changemakers whose discontent with the status quo propels them to be the change they want to see in the world.

This event features a conversation between John and the Executive Director of Rainbow Railroad, Kimahli Powell. The conversation includes discussion of the issues that LGBTQI+ individuals face around the world and how Rainbow Railroad is helping with safe passage through emergency relocation for those escaping persecution.

We begin with Boran Ojak, a student at the University of Toronto, who shares their personal story of triumph, and the challenges they faced escaping persecution.

Boran Ocak:

Good evening, and welcome to Hart House at the University of Toronto. I'm Boran, a first-year student of engineering at the University of Toronto. I arrived from Turkey to here in this September. It is my pleasure to welcome those who are joining us in person, and those who are joining us online for this important event. This is our first change-makers of the season.

The Hart House conversation Changemaker's series consists of fireside-style chats with inspiring folks whose discontent with the status quo propels them to be the change they want to see in this world.

We see change-makers as dedicated individuals who devote their lives to affecting sustainable, and meaningful change in interest of justice and equity. These are people who see a need for change and respond to it. They are leaders by example.

Boran Ocak:

Before we invite John and Kimahli, I would like to first share my personal story, and why this session and the work done by Rainbow Railroad is so important.

I want to talk about the story of my home, my street, the Istiklal Street, which means freedom.

It's a street that was full of pride and joy, and it’s now the epicenter of hate and crime. This summer, on the twenty sixth of June, I look at my mirror as I get ready.

I could see my tears dripping onto my eye shadow palette as I was receiving hundreds of messages from my friends who got arrested just because they were celebrating pride, carrying flags, holding hands, wearing, makeup, walking, breathing, just simply existing.

I drew my eyeliner sharper than ever that day. My lipstick, the brightest rouge. My face didn't reflect the fear and the frustration within me as I was prepared to march to my streets, Istiklal Street.

It's a street where I walked every day, where I found myself where I had my first kiss, where I had my greatest joy and my sorrows.

The place that I called home was no longer welcoming me, and I started to wonder why my home, where more than one hundred thousand people, celebrated pride turn into a place, where a trans woman got raped, killed, and set on fire. Why, the only way to make living in my street for trans people is true, Illegal sex work. Why, they hated us so much, Why, my makeup is hurting them.

Why, why and why? I had to stop and think about all those unanswered questions when I saw a police officer dragging my friend on the ground and torturing him. That day, three hundred and seventy-seven people whom I know got arrested because of who they are. The hate that was created to benefit just a few people took away our freedom, our joy, our clubs, our streets, and finally our homes.

Every day. All around the world people are losing their jobs, their rights, their homes, and even their lives, because of just being themselves.

And I know that it is so hard to leave our homes, but sometimes we have to leave our homes for a better future, for our safety. As difficult as it is. It is also a chance for us to be the change that we wish to see in our world, in our homes. And when I say homes, I don't mean that a few streets, a few clubs or a few designated areas which is safe to queer people.

I want everywhere to belong to us, and I will never stop reclaiming our homes to make them ours again, because I want the whole world, not just the crumbs.

Boran Ocak:

Now it's my honor to introduce our special guest.

Kimahli Powell is the executive director of Rainbow Railroad, which has helped thousands of LGBTQI individuals from around the world escape prosecution. Under his leadership Rainbow Railroad has expanded its international reach. Kimahli was named one of Out Magazine top one hundred LGBTQ influential people in 2018. He was awarded an Honorary Doctor of Law from the University of Victoria. In addition, he has made appearances on CNN, MSN, NBC, CBC, BBC, and profiled on Sixty Minutes.

Joining Kimahli in conversation this evening, is John Monahan, the Warden of Hart House. John's illustrious career has been law and diplomacy prior to coming to Hart House as a warden. He was the inaugural executive director of the Mosaic Institute. Please join me in welcoming Kimahli Powell and John Monaghan.

John Monahan: Thank you so very much for providing that opening that you did and sharing as you have, and I really appreciate our conversation from earlier as well, when you and Kimahli and I were speaking before this event.

It is because of stories like Boran that do not necessarily end, as I don't want to say “end”, but do not necessarily result in a brilliant first-year industrial engineering student here at the University of Toronto, standing up in front of you, talking, but rather involved a far more complicated situation.

People around the world in countries, even more repressive towards LGBTQI people than in Turkey. It's because of people like that, we want very much, to bring Kimahli Powell and the amazing work that you are doing, and your colleagues through Rainbow Railroad into this Changemaker's space to have a conversation about the work that is being done, the work that still needs to be done, and how at a personal level, one becomes a changemaker; how one becomes a Boran, in a personal capacity, or how one becomes a Kimahli Powell in a professional capacity. So thank you for your generosity of time and wisdom and insight tonight.

So Kimahli, for those that don't know, could you tell folks, what's the elevator pitch of Rainbow Railroad?

Kimahli Powell:

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Boran, for your really powerful story. Hi. I literally got off a plane from Europe like three hours ago. So, I hope you guys are really attentive and asked lots of questions.

My name is KImahli Powell, and I use he/his pronouns. I am the executive director at Rainbow Railroad, and, you know, Rainbow Railroad's mission is pretty simple. We help LGBTQI+ people find safety. And we do this work in a context where around the world, people are being persecuted just because of who they are or who they love. And we do three simple things. We receive requests from around the world for people who are imminent risk or a danger. Our wonderful team, my colleague, Adrian, who is here, amongst others, do really incredible work on verifying, understanding their story and identifying how we can help. Once we actually identify how we could help, we actually do the work in relocating them through international borders to a country like Canada or many others, where they could live their authentic selves.

John Monahan:

Now, I understand that Rainbow Railroad began back in 2006. Is that right? 2006? And when it began, it began urgently, in order to address a real concern that a few people in Toronto had seen around the world. It didn't have a whole lot of structure around. It didn't have its charitable designation and all of those things. It was just people that saw a need and responded. And we're working to bring about the change that they thought needed to be done in that moment. Tell us a little bit about the growth of Rainbow Railroad since then, 2006, the same year, my God, my daughter was born sixteen years ago. Tell us about what's happened to the organization since then.

Kimahli Powell:

Yeah, so, Rainbow Railroad’s story is an interesting one. In 2006, for those of you who will remember, is just one year after Canada became the third country to make same-sex marriage legal. And I think... Can you think that's been almost twenty years? It's been almost twenty years. I'm not old enough to remember, but some of you might be.

John Monahan:

My parents have told me about it.

Kimahli Powell:

And you know there's a funny story about that, because I think Canada actually wanted to be the first country, and there's a whole other conversation. But I think there is a lot of outward seeking from civil society, and just to be super clear, as we witness just conversion therapy just being banned this past year. There's a lot of work to be done nationally on protecting people who are still at risk, indigenous folks, people of color, etc. But I think there is also a interest because of persecution abroad to look outwardly. And so, a group of citizens and activists and leaders got together to say, how can we help one, and it was literally one person at risk. They kind of adopted like, if you've heard about Canada's private sponsorship scheme, which i'll probably talk about later. Individuals gathered together to provide support for one individual, and they chugged along, doing that cobbling resources to help one person at one country, one destination, starting in the Caribbean, because there's not UN protections for people to claim refugee status, and there was a high degree of homosexual violence happening in the country. By 2013, they were realizing they were at a moment where they needed to either aim big or maybe shut down. You know they were slowly moving along. They had gotten some degree of resources, but very little. At the time I was actually working at a legal policy organization at the HIV Legal Network watching Rainbow Railroad develop. It also had a framing that needed to be rethought. You know, I think the slogan at the time was, “we save rainbow lives”, which is, while catchy, inherently problematic right from just like a Canadian Global North neo-colonial point of view. And so enter the decision to get charitable status in 2014, I was not the first executive director or founder. I was not interested in setting up the bank account for Rainbow Railroad or doing all the things with a company with no money had to do, so very thankful to my good friend Justin Taylor, who did all that work for me, and he was there for a year, really just getting the organization set up. He left and then I took on the role going on almost seven years.

At that point, seven years ago, I think we had seventy thousand dollars in the bank, and a pledge for three hundred thousand dollars from our foundation, and that was that was it. We had an understanding that we had a unique opportunity to do something huge, that we can actually, you know, manipulate the right to asylum, which is guaranteed under the 1951 Convention. But governments challenge or make it hard for people to claim asylum in the country, and if we could kind of manipulate legal pathways to get people into the country, then we could help people. And they were doing it by 2016, they were helping, you know, fifteen, twenty people, and I was fascinated by this opportunity to operationalize that model, find new ways to innovate and scale. So we went from seven years ago, helping around twenty people a year to this year, we will have helped over three hundred people in 2022. We've helped over fifteen hundred people in the past seven years, and now we are operating on a budget of ten million.

John Monahan:

That's an amazing growth. And yet you've also shared in our earlier conversations that with the growth and the success of the organization, the growth and the demand, it continues to outpace the organization. In other words, there is a lot of persecution of LGBTQI2S+ people around the world, and success begets more inquiries and more desperate text messages, etc. I think your website says you're anticipating something like ten thousand requests, for instance this year. I don't know if that number is still accurate, or if it's gone up or down, but even if it's ten thousand on the dot, that's a lot of inquiries. A lot of people that need help. How do you triage? You've got ten thousand people at least that are reaching you, how do you triage?

Kimahli Powell:

So before we answer that, let's just take a step back and understand why we're at this point. And I think our growth is because we are trying to solve a very unique problem for a unique population, at the intersection of two big challenges. One is, there are still seventy countries that criminalize same-sex intimacy, so there is 155 or so UN Member States before India decriminalized a few years ago. More than sixty percent of the world's population was under criminalized context. So that's a huge factor that displaces individuals. And the journey of [the LGBTQI2S+ community], just for the record, the government now uses the word 2S LGBTQI+ to represent the community. We say LGBTQI2S+, and I’m going to use queer for most of the time, just because I'm jet lag, we're not going to use LGBTQI2S+. it's not rolling off the tongue as much today. So I hope you forgive me for that. And so queer people are displaced in their country, and the journey for an individual who's part of the community is different than a family that is fleeing war where they are actually supported by a community, whereas individuals, if they're persecuted in their country, they're actually sometimes being targeted by their families. A very lonely, isolating journey, with very little options. The UN system, or the United Nations High Commission refugees is designed to allow one person to flee war or flee torture and go to another country and wait. However, in sub-Saharan Africa, and in many other countries you're literally asking people to flee one country where they're being persecuted because of criminalization of same-sex intimacy to another, right? So someone's going from Uganda, where they're being persecuted, to Kenya, where they're being persecuted. So that's one part of the problem.

The second part of the problem is that there are one hundred million people displaced around the world now, that is the highest number since the second World War. People call this the global refugee crisis. It's really important to clarify that it's a crisis of government's failure to act. And so we have the highest number of displaced people at the time where government resettlement is at its lowest. People are fleeing to countries, like Turkey, who is actually receiving most of the world's refugees, and other countries are receiving refugees in precarious circumstances.

So in the middle of those two situations are the people who reach out to us for help, and I think the number on our website is around eighty-five to nine hundred and nine thousand. So it'll get to ten thousand before the end of the year. That makes, to answer your question, vulnerability, assessment, and triaging more challenging. We've been on an interesting journey at Rainbow Railroad, you know, when I started, we knew we had expertise in helping an individual at risk. Six months after I started the crisis in Chechnya happened, and then we realized, okay, we can actually help a couple of hundred people at once. The situation in the past year with Afghanistan, and now Ukraine, correlates to your question around triaging, and because we went from two thousand requests for help to ten thousand. That's a unique challenge for us. We can't hire. We're hiring more people at a rapid rate. But we can't hire your way through that many requests. And so we have to be really kind of, you know, I really kind of empower the team, and everyone at Rainbow Railroad to really think about our work from the the perspective of the person reaching out for us to help and trying to be as honest as possible about what we can or cannot do. And then really looking at, it's a mixture of, looking at their vulnerability, their locations. Some locations, there is just no option. Sometimes, where they are within the LGBTQI2S+ community, is a factor. So a trans person in a context of a certain country, all of a sudden becomes high risk. It really is a complex web that we take triaging very seriously.

John Monahan:

I wonder if you could talk us through the process of the triaging from the other end. So a queer person in a country where their rights are not recognized or respected, where their very life, certainly their livelihood is threatened because of who they are, and they do reach you. What does the process look like from that end? If someone reaches you, and you do an initial assessment. You look at those contextual factors, and you determine that this is someone that you would like to get more information about, because there is a real and pressing need, if possible, to bring that person to safety. What does that experience entail for the person who has reached out to you?

Kimahli Powell:

Yeah, that's a great question. You know it's... I say this often, and I believe everyone who's part of our team really believes this, is that we are facilitators of the journey of the individual who is making a remarkable, brave journey to their own freedom. You know people have been fleeing persecution for centuries, right? We've seen many movements. Our name is from the Underground Railroad. There are many movements, whether it's the Underground Railroad or Jews during World War II, or people fleeing. An individual doing that is a very brave and unimaginable situation, unless you are a person that has gone through that journey, and often it's legal. Often people do whatever it takes to find the resources to do it. They're abandoning their family. They sometimes have little on their person, and they're making a decision to go. Because so often it's such a lonely and risky journey, we go from the lens of how can we make it as safe as possible for that individual? What that means for someone who reaches out to us for help is, we really do need to make them part of the process. Every single case is different. So, if someone reaches out to us, we try to respond right away. But then there will be a wait. There will be a wait for our case workers to determine if we're in a situation to help. We have really good “gaydar” at our Rainbow Railroad, so we could point a queer person out really quickly. So, I could tell in this room who's queer or not. No, I’m joking. And so, we ask a lot of questions. We try to understand their situation or context, and then it's a dialogue around helping them advance their case forward, and maybe not advance their case forward. You can be working on a case and that person doesn't have their basic identification, right? Or they are all of a sudden trapped in their home by their spouse, right? There's a whole bunch of factors. And so it's a really intensive process where case workers work with those individuals on a regular basis until they make it to their final destination.

John Monahan:

So, is that individual encouraged to look for a Canadian High Commission or a Canadian embassy, and make some humanitarian claim in person? Are they encouraged to reach out to a UN HCR office, or does the advice vary and depend on all sorts of circumstances?

Kimahli Powell:

Yes it varies. I’m trying to decide what I can tell you John, and it varies from case to case. It really does depend on the situation and the context. Just a fun fact, the majority of people who we help don't come to Canada. It's one of those things people just assume, but it's not true, because it's really hard to claim asylum in Canada. Canada has a private sponsorship program which is the model for the world and we're really proud of that program, but if you've, has anyone here ever been part of a sponsor group before. You have, right? So you know it's a rewarding experience, but it's a difficult one.

John Monahan:

It’s a big time commitment.

Kimahli Powell:

It's a huge commitment. Find volunteers, in the city of Toronto. And basically you're committing legally to provide support for an individual for one year. There's a long wait to do it. The people who usually are under those circumstances, have a little bit more resources to stay safe, and they register for the UN. That's one tool, but it can't be the only tool, and unfortunately that's the Government's position. So in some instances, working with the UN is possible, but many times, honestly, we are essentially utilizing the right to asylum in countries where you don't necessarily need a visa or a requirement to entry, and allowing people to safely claim asylum.

John Monahan:

You talked a little bit about in 2013, making the decision to get charitable status, around the time of the Chechnya crisis, the original Chechnya crisis, or maybe not the original, but the one that people have come to closely associate with your organization because of the tremendous work that you've done, but also the harrowing circumstances that your work has helped to shine light on in places like Chechnya. And the government of Canada, and, in fact, the current deputy Prime Minister, Chrystia Freeland, was very publicly supportive of your efforts, and the government of Canada has been very publicly supportive of some of your efforts, which I think is terrific, because you're you know as a changemaker, you started by changing individual lives. but you're now working to change systems, which I think is, you know, laudable. You also said, though, that your organization has such high demand, you can't just hire more and more and more people. You don't want to let our government or any other government of a so-called democracy, off the hook from their responsibilities to actually fulfill, you know, bring bona fide refugees to their shores. So how do you do that dance? If there is a dance required when you're working with the government, you know they're watching you. They're watching you with some admiration, because you're achieving stuff. But you don't want to give a pass to governments from doing the work that they need to do to actually change the system. And there was a, you know, a kind of related point. There was a, the Environics Institute released data yesterday, that shows that Canadians are more supportive now of immigration than they have ever been. So we, as a country in contrast to many other countries around the world, case in point, UK, US, for instance, are very supportive of immigration. And anyway, so you understand my question, I think. What do you do and what does the government do, and how do you not let them off the hook?

Kimahli Powell:

So, my advocacy journey with the Canadian Government has been a very long one. And it's kind of, and it's been primarily with one government, the current government. When you all say change-makers, and you invited me to come, I always kind of remiss and be like, I don't know if that's how I would define myself, and then you remind me of Chechnya, and I still remember the day where I was, I think I flew from San Francisco to Moscow with a Russian interpreter stopping in Toronto, trying to read up precedence that I didn't know existed in order to have a conversation with officials in the mission. And I guess in hindsight, that's how change is possible, and at the same time we were making the case directly to the government that we had a unique possibility to help in an international crisis. We had a partner on the ground that we had established safe houses within Moscow, who was directly helping people through Chechnya. There was a great film called Welcome the Chechnya, by the way, if you want to know more about the intervention.

At the same time, I think one of the most frustrating things about having to advocate for us, is that literally I had to be on TV trying to convince the government to do this while actually trying to work on the ground. And that's a unique position that Rainbow Railroad sits on. It’s that we are advocating while doing the work. It's because our immigration system is a dinosaur, and I can say that because I said it to the Minister of Immigration in the last in July. It is not necessarily equipped to face the challenges we have. Our policy on immigration is reactive, rather than proactive, which is why you can see two vastly different responses to the situation in Afghanistan vis-a-vis the situation in Ukraine. Two widely different approaches to how you would resettle people who are in a conflict situation. So that makes our advocacy work really difficult. I think you know; I had a heartening talk with the minister, and again, being at the table with the Minister of Immigration is a sign of success. I met with him twice now, where we've made the case, that queer refugees in asylum seekers are at risk. And yet at the same time, if you go to our website, or if you go to safewayout.ca, which you could take out your phones with you right now. No, seriously. Go take out your phones. Safewayout.ca. Should I pause while you take out your phones? We are actually advocating for the government of Canada to help more Afghan refugees at the same time, because we have to go case by case, crisis by crisis. What we actually want is a referring partnership with the government, where we can identify X hundreds of people, which would save the government a lot of time and effort to work it, and save us a lot of resources, and it'll help the individual much more. Yet, we cannot get that North Star yet with the government, because the system is not currently designed to have any other partners other than the United Nations High Commission for refugees.

John Monahan:

Are you working to establish a partnership with governments in other countries as well?

Kimahli Powell:

Yeah, so Rainbow Railroad is a US and Canadian based organization. We successfully referred. I'm going to say something to you, and you're going to not understand it because it doesn't make sense. But just try to follow along. Through a remarkable, so I think if you heard about Afghanistan, Canada promised twenty thousand, then grew to forty thousand Afghans resettle. They allowed the United States to refer five thousand people. So, the US government is referring people from around the world to go to Canada. Following that? Sounds strange right? It's strange. So, if you're not understanding it's because it's convoluted, because if you saw the images of people at the Abbey Gate, or rushing to the airport or hangars, you could tell that in the withdrawal people were going everywhere. So, the US government would stop bringing people into the country. So, they're basically leveraging other countries. We manage to get a deal with the US government to refer two hundred Afghans to come to Canada. So, we managed to get people in Canada as a US-based organization, with a deal with the US government to help LGBTQI people to enter Canada. Is your head hurt? Following that, right? So, it's great. We managed to get like two hundred people. It’s huge. Within the United States government, I've met with the Biden administration. I've met with officials. I met President Biden himself, and it's remarkable that I haven't actually met the Prime Minister of Canada, actually.

John Monahan:

Can anyone in the room help with that?

Kimahli Powell:

Prime Minister, I've been waiting for seven years, no. But it's a sign and actually I think us, demonstrating that we can refer that many people strengthen our relationship with the Canadian government as well.

John Monahan:

I find that really fascinating, because, as I said a minute ago, support for immigration at large, is very high in Canada, as high or higher than ever before, and that's all categories of immigration. I don't know that everyone understands the nuances and differences between economic migrants and asylum seekers and family class, etc. But nonetheless immigration writ large, huge support in Canada, almost unquestioning, almost unquestioning. Not the case in many of our ally, our closest allied countries, and the political culture in much of the United States has antipathy towards migrants in many cases, and yet you've been able to achieve what you have systemically with the US government and not here in Canada. So, my question, I guess, is, what is the role of the general public, the citizens, that support the governments in their countries? What is the role of citizens in urging and egging their governments on, to be more responsive to the migration needs of queer people. And what in particular, let's bring it close to home, so it’s great that Canadians love immigration, but you're not able to do what you're not able to address the need, that you know needs to be addressed, because there are barriers to that happening. And, by the way, Boran, and this is another job for an industrial engineer.

Kimahli Powell:

The United States is not the only country we are pursuing relations with. We are also looking at European governments as well. But the difference between Canada and the United States specifically, is that, when we formed our 501(c)(3) non-profit status in the United States. We had low expectations, and when I started looking at the US. I was thinking of President Hillary Clinton, and that didn't happen, and all of a sudden, we had a different situation, a different President, and at the same time Chechnya was happening. There was a Muslim ban. Remember that? And yet I was still able to bring… I brought a Chechen refugee to the White House under President Trump. We met with the Chief of staff and members of his team, and they were still willing to… It's fascinating because we are still able to have conversation with multiple governments around vulnerability for LGBTQI+ people separate from refugees.

I don't know how they work that out, but, hey, if it works, it works. So, one of the first governments that we made a deal with Afghanistan, was the UK government, with Boris Johnson's government, which I think is like three Prime Ministers ago, and they were the first who came up with a pretty innovative policy to allow the first Afghans we were able to reach governments. And that worked because we worked with leading LGBTQI+ organization on the ground, Stonewall, and they put the pressure on the government and the public was behind them.

When the Chechnya happened, it’s kind of similar. It was great that Minister Freeland was highly engaged in Russia and Ukraine. If you know Minister Freeland, you know why she would be passionate about that region, and many LGBTQI+ leaders came to me. I was a new ED who is in many circles, being like, how can we help? How do we put pressure on? I knew there were a lot of silent discussions that helped push that forward.

The machinery part's important because since the Biden Administration came out, the Biden Administration basically listed a memorandum, as part of the executive orders, basically saying we are going to have a policy on LGBTQI+ rights, and it's going to involve refugees. And all of a sudden, we were plucked out of obscurity, because that's us. And when the new administration comes in, if you don't know US politics, their whole policy team comes in, right? The apparatus comes in, and that's how policy is changed. It's not the same in Canada. So a new minister comes in… I've worked with three ministers of immigration. The Minister of Immigration is new, but the bureaucracy is the same. They're seniors. They're incredible public servants who've been doing this work for a long time and have preexisting ideas around refugee policy. And the biggest challenge that we have, which frustrates me to no end, is that there are still people who claim fairness within their bureaucracy when it comes to LGBTQI+ refugees that they do not understand how a queer refugee is uniquely vulnerable, so a referring partnership won't be fair to all the other vulnerable groups who are out there.

John Monahan:

Who don't have the good fortune to not be born queer.

Kimahli Powell:

Exactly. It's a maddening argument, but it's still an argument. I do think, though, that individuals like everyone in this room, does have a role to play. Our Safe Way Out Campaign was the first time we actually asked people to reach out to their Member of Parliament and say, do more on this issue. I think there's still opportunities to, and we'll be addressing this in the months to come, where Canadians can actually talk to their member of the parliament and say that we believe that Afghanistan's refugees are uniquely vulnerable and people like Rainbow Railroad should have stronger ties with government to help people find safety.

John Monahan:

I recall, too, that 501(c)(3) organizations in the States, their charitable organizations, that they don't have the same restrictions on them in terms of advocacy as charitable organizations do in Canada. Maybe to go with our fabled politeness. The Canadian charities are just supposed to go along to get along, but in the United States you can be a charity, and also advocate quite strongly and sometimes stridently, for political change and systemic change in ways that we don't appear to be officially comfortable with, but maybe that has to… That itself has to change.

Kimahli Powell:

Yeah, I’m a lobbyist now, I didn't think I'd go into this job being a lobbyist, but I I am actually one.

John Monahan:

If you want to make change, changemaker.

Kimahli Powell:

I get whiplash because I have to conduct myself differently in Canada and the United States. There's midterms happening in the United States. There may be an LGBTQI+ group who's voting Republican, I mean, maybe some of the Log Cabin Republicans are out there, but it's like the entire progressive apparatus is supposed to be voting for one party, who is advancing X amount of policies. It's a very specific position, and Rainbow Railroad doesn't see itself as an impart in any way. But I think if you're following refugee policy in the United States, there's really two options you could go with. In Canada's a little different. Particularly because in Canada, it's a little more nuanced when it comes to refugees. I would say that the Conservative Government actually has some pretty progressive items around LGBTQI+ refugees in their party platform, which I think that makes Canada a great place, where I think I actually believe it's one issue where there can be alignment in all three, four, six, six parties? It makes advocacy a little different, because I can't… We have to be a little bit more nuanced and polite around how we engage in the advocacy. It also means that you know our approach with this current government is around just highlighting the vulnerable people who are at risk.

We're advocating for real people who are facing life and death situations, who are stuck in countries where they have no options, and for government and a country that says that they are leaders in this space, that they are leaders on refugees and how to help these people. We're just signaling out that, that can't be true until you help these people who are at risk.

John Monahan:

So, Kimahli, if I may, I'd like to turn the conversation in a slightly more personal direction. Nothing intrusive, but part of the impetus for the Changemakers series was that we had students of the University that are engaged here at Hart House say to us that they wanted to better understand how they could be part of making change, and the idea of bringing in people such as yourself that are actually going about the business of making that change or working to make that change every day, was appealing to them because they really are looking for role models and examples, although everyone's got their own path. You were a student at University of Ottawa. Is that right? Political science? When you were there, did you already envision yourself as a future changemaker around the sorts of issues that you've been working on for your career, or how did this happen for you as a pathway?

Kimahli Powell:

Yeah. So, I mean my mother sent me to University of Ottawa, and I mean I sent myself, but I was supposed to go to Ottawa to be Prime Minister of Canada, right? Like that was…

John Monahan:

Life is long, Kimahli.

Kimahli Powell:

Not at all going to happen, not that long. So when I went to Ottawa with a huge interest in government, with a huge interest in how the Canadian Politics works. I'm the youngest of the seven, and the only one in the family born in Canada. So growing up… And because of the way the immigration scheme worked, and the choice of my family my mother made, I had siblings who came at different phases of my childhood, which was an interesting experience for me, and but I also recognize that my privilege as a Canadian born person was different than my own siblings. I held that close to heart, and my mom was a big fan of Trudeau Senior, and this idea of Canada as a humanitarian actor internationally, was something that was really compelling to me. So I went to Ottawa to really look at how I can… I thought working within government, I didn't know how, was the answer. I realized very quickly that I did not want to work in the government, which made my time in Ottawa really interesting, because I thought I was on a path, and I needed to understand what was next for me. And the next for me was falling in love and having my first partner, who was a dancer. And then I was like, Maybe I'm going to just stop working in… I'm not going to work for the government. I’m going to work in arts and culture. And I did that for a little while, and I really didn't want to do that, either. I had a phase where I realized that I knew… I mean the through line of my career is, I understood strategy, I understood how to lead. I was passionate about social justice, but how I was planning on getting there was unique, which I guess, if you're a young changemaker, means that don't let anyone tell you the path you're trying to take is wrong. Take whatever… Can I curse? Take whatever fucking path you want, right? Because the way…

John Monahan:

I just want to stress that's a European word that Kimahli learned on his recent trip.

Kimahli Powell:

It's important, because I think students, especially now, are spending so much money on tuition, to be told that there's one way forward, and I'm an example that there wasn't. When I decided… I am aged myself. When I decided fifteen years later to really refocus on international development again, I actually think my time being creative has actually helped how I solve problems. It's also, I think, why we are able to do advocacy at the same time as doing direct work. And so, I've kind of come full circle to… I guess I knew then that this was the work I wanted to be doing, and I think I was a little disillusioned when I was in Ottawa about how I would get there, and am really thankful that I just trusted the path I was in.

John Monahan:

I don't suppose that you can fake commitment to a cause, right? If you are doing work that that is so important and so all-encompassing and so physically and mentally exhausting. My assumption is that you really need to feel in your bones, of why it's important. Is that the case for you and the mandate of Rainbow Railroad helping queer people around the world.? And if so, where does that impetus? Where does that commitment or drive come from for you, if I may ask?

Kimahli Powell:

I have my favorite story that I could describe, that signifies the work for me involves my mother. So I've been very fortunate, and I think what drives the work I do is that I was privileged to be born in Canada. I was also privileged as a black, gay male, cisgender gay male from the Caribbean diaspora to have a family that was pretty accepting in a context where many people would not have the same benefit. And I think that kind of drives the work that I do. And Jamaica is so… My parents are Caribbean. My mom was Jamaican, my dad's Cuban Jamaican and my mom holidays in Jamaica every year. You know, Jamaica is fascinating because it is it is a beautiful island. It's a small island that's had such an impact on our culture, and it is also a very violent country, and has queer people who face a lot of homophobic and transphobic violence. How all that within an island of four million people is a complex situation. So it could be a paradise for some people, and it could be dangerously violent for many others. And so my mom holiday there every year, and I encourage her to do it. And one year, when she was there, it was early days of Rainbow Railroad, and we were helping to organize a pride in Jamaica. The story of pride in Jamaica is very different than in other contexts, you know there's no corporate floats with TD and people running. We were literally kind of like racing from a vehicle going to another site. We go out, do demonstrations. Some people had masks on to hide their identities, and you kind of demonstrated until people grab their attention. Then you kind of scoot off to another location before a crowd gets too big. That was kind of what demonstrated looks like. At the same time my mom was on holiday, and we were being hosted by people who had a nice hotel in a safe space, and so I invited my mom because it was a really nice hotel. We could never afford it, but they gave us a really good rate. I brought my mom, my aunt, and a friend, and a couple of supporters to lunch, and my mom has, like abstract notions of the work we do. She still sometimes says, like, how's your business? Or just like really vague platitudes of our work. And this is the first time she actually had to sit down and hear that experience and hear with her girlfriends this conversation about what it is like to have acid doused on you for being queer.

I was nervous about how she was receiving all this information, and my mom is a very pensive person, and so she was just digesting. And she says, Kimahli, I realize, if I didn't make the decision to move to Canada when I did, you could have been one of the people who you're helping. And I was like, yes, jackpot! Like ding, ding, dingy, ding! You got it, right! It was like one of those powerful moments when you know you hope your folks just accept the work you do, right? But also, she's right. Right? I think I work with some really talented people who I think we all collectively… I'm looking at you, Adrian. Because I think we all believe it, that we understand the privilege that we have doing this work in a context where we can be safe in the city of Toronto and being able to help people abroad. And I think that's kind of what drives me. And that story kind of signifies why the work is important.

Sako:

Thank you for listening and taking the time to be a part of this wonderful learning experience.

A special Thank you to Kimahli Powell and John Monahan for this conversation. You can follow Rainbow Railroad on Instagram at @rainbowrailroad

This Changemakers conversation was produced and supported by the team at Hart House; The podcast was edited by Janine AlHadidi.

Hart House is part of the University of Toronto in Ontario, Canada. To learn more about the Changemaker Series and other opportunities at Hart House, please visit harthouse.ca or follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Youtube or Facebook.

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thewestmeetingroom · 2 years

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Hart House Changemakers: What Art Teaches Us in Perilous Times with Weyni Mengesha

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Theater, Conversation, Artists, Community

SPEAKERS

John Monahan, Weyni Mengesha, Liam Donovan, Anthony Palermo, Kimia Karachi, Dhanya Dass

John Monahan

Hello, this is John Monahan. I'm the Warden of Hart House at the University of Toronto. On behalf of Hart House Conversations, welcome to Changemakers, a series of fireside style chats between myself and inspiring folks whose discontent with the status quo propels them to be the change they want to see in the world. It's my great pleasure to be your host.

Today we are broadcasting from the historic Hart House Theatre, and we are grateful to be coming to you from the traditional lands of the Huron Wendat, the Seneca and both the traditional and Treaty lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit.

I am delighted today to bring you a conversation with the brilliant film and theatre director and the artistic director of Soulpepper Theatre in Toronto. Weyni Mengesha. Together we explore the topic – What Art Teaches us in Perilous Times. Let's begin and listen in.

Liam Donovan

Good evening, and welcome to Hart House at the University of Toronto. I'm Liam Donovan, a student going into my fourth year at the University. And it is my great pleasure to welcome you here tonight as our first public audience in Hart House theatre since the 2020 closure. Yes, welcome back. And we're also delighted to have everyone who's online with us.

With that, I am delighted to welcome and introduce our special guest, Weyni Mengesha. Weyni is the artistic director of Soulpepper Theatre Company in Toronto, and an award-winning director known for her groundbreaking work and community engagement. She has directed shows across Canada that have gone on to tour nationally and internationally and have been developed into television shows playing on CBC, Global and Netflix. Weyni has also directed in London, New York, and Los Angeles, garnering along the way and NAACP nomination for Best Direction, as well as Dora, Drama League, and Drama Critics Circle nominations and awards for outstanding direction.

Weyni has been an instructor at the National Theatre School of Canada and the Canadian film center and was co-artistic director of the artists mentoring youth project for seven years. She has also directed award winning short films, episodic TV, and is developing her first feature. In 2018 Waney was named one of the 50 most influential people in Toronto, by Toronto Life magazine.

Joining Weyni in conversation this evening is John Monahan, the Warden of Hart House. John's past lives include experience as a lawyer, a diplomat, and the inaugural Executive Director of the Mosaic Institute. But John also happens to be an enthusiastic and lifelong lover of theater. So, I imagine he is as excited as I am to begin this conversation and so, without any further ado, please join me in welcoming to the stage, Weyni Mengesha and John Monahan.

John Monahan

I am delighted, first of all to thank Liam for those kind opening remarks, to thank all of you for being here with us this evening for this special Alumni Reunion edition of the Changemakers Series at Hart House - What Art Teaches us in perilous times.

So, whether you are sitting with us in the Heart House Theater or sitting in the comfort of your own living room, we are thrilled and delighted to have you with us this evening. Some of you may have memories and I hope they are pleasant ones of participating in or attending theatrical performances in the Hart House Theatre in the past. This is the same venue that was famously referred to by Robertson Davies as the cradle of Canadian theatre. Some amazing legends of Canadian theatre have trod the boards in this venue over its century long history. But as Liam has already mentioned, for the past two years, there has been almost no treading. We did film a number of performances for this year's Hart House U of T Drama Festival, and the Hart House U of T Dance Festival. But we did so without the benefit of live audiences. So tonight, collectively, you are helping us to make very happy history. And it is all the happier because we are joined by another legend of Canadian theatre, the remarkable and visionary Weyni Mengesha.

Weyni, welcome, we're happy you're here.

Weyni Mengesha

I'm happy to be here, thank you.

John Monahan

Now, in case we know, this is your first Changemakers event, it may or may not be our audience's first Changemakers event. So, let's start with defining some terms. What is a change maker? Well, we use that term to refer to people who are trailblazers, often they are folks who when they encounter what we'll call a justice-, or equity-gap in their community, or in their society, they go about filling that gap constructively and sustainably. They are leaders by example.

Weyni, given all that you've achieved and all that you do in your work, we think you're a changemaker. How does that sit with you?

Weyni Mengesha

Oh, first question easy. I do believe that I am a passionate person that does not does not get discouraged by a boundary or a barrier for what I believe, which often causes change. Yeah.

John Monahan

It causes change.

Weyni Mengesha

That of kind of passion does. Yeah, I think moving through barriers and boundaries. And I think as you said, you know, trying to build those bridges to build, to fill those gaps has always been a passion of mine.

John Monahan

When you first thought about embarking on on a career in theater, did you know even at that point, that there were barriers that there would be boundaries that you needed to bridge or was that part of the attraction?

Weyni Mengesha

I didn't actually. I… theater kind of happened to me in high school where I was more of a social activism in high school. And when I did apply to theater went to apply to York University as an actor, I couldn't find a Black Canadian monologue to audition with really so that's when it became quite apparent. And that's not because it didn't exist actually, Djanet Sears is an alumni from here had written Afrika, Solo by that point. But the publishing was it was limited to find that and, and again, it was like one of the first to be published about a Black female Canadian monologue. So, what I recognized early is that the Canadian canon as it sat, needed more stories and needed more representation. So, I found another monologue, but went in and realized pretty soon after that, I could play these roles, or I could be a part of the change. And by the end of my first year, I switched to directing.

John Monahan

Fascinating. Take us back even before you got to that point because we're already at York University. You and I share some comparable geographic background. I know that you grew up largely in Scarborough as did I. What was it about theater that first attracted you as a young person, whether it was to become an actor or a theater or, or stage director, whatever it was, what was it about theater in particular, that appealed to you at some point?

Weyni Mengesha

Well, in high school, I used it because I wanted to tell some stories that I've, in the community that I grew up in Scarborough, I was part of a sort of a Black Students Association. And I wanted to tell something, a tell a story that was specific to us. And I had a hard time finding it. And so, we created sketches. And it was a theater teacher who told me, you know, you have a knack for this, and you should do something about it. But I really thought I was going to study law or do something else altogether. And so, I think I recognize it as a tool.

And I was introduced to Augusto Boal, who was sort of a became an early hero of mine, who was a Brazilian theatre maker who, you know, social justice in theater was one of the same for him. And learning about those tools, and all of it just felt like a really, it felt like my way, you know, it's like, you know, Toni Morrison has this quote, that, you know, when she sees sort of a sickness in society, she's not the doctor, all she can do is expose it. And that's the job of art. And for me, I yeah, that's my thing that I relate to, and I feel really passionate about, is convening people to look at the problem together.

And that's what theatre does so beautifully, is that it's, it's a process of collective visioning. It's a process of the world that we want to see and sort of a Democratic Forum and going, how do we envision that together?

And, you know, I guess I have a history of politics. My, my great grandfather was the emperor of Ethiopia. So, I was my father came here, when he was studying at 14. And when the revolution happened, I knew my family, a lot of them were in prison in Ethiopia, my grandmother and everybody was in prison in Ethiopia. I knew I came from this lineage that I was very separated from, it didn't know much about it. Growing up in Vancouver, I just knew that my family was there, and that they were looking to the Canadian government to support his mother getting out of jail. And I knew about this history of this political legacy in my family. But I didn't know how I was connected to it. And when I found theater, it felt similar to me, it is it's in sort of that ancient way of bringing people together and looking at problems and are looking for solutions together. So, sort of a long question, but I think it's, I think it goes back deeper than I then I recognized as a child, it was definitely in my home, my dad and the way that my parents raised me.

John Monahan

Almost in your DNA, in a sense, right, this connection to effecting change?

Weyni Mengesha

I think so I think my dad growing up, you know, the way that he did in that in that monarchy always felt a responsibility. You know, you don't you grew up feeling of responsibility to be a part of making a change or an impact on society. And I think those values are passed down to me. So, I think that's yeah, it's part of definitely a part of what moves me.

John Monahan

You mentioned Djanet Sears, a minute ago, I wanted to pick up on that because, as I told you earlier, I watched a short video that you did for Soulpepper back in 2020, where you were asked about the show that changed your life. And you talked about the show Adventures of a Black Woman in Search of God. That was both written by and directed by Djanet Sears. You were, I think assistant director on on a production that she directed back in 2002 when you were a toddler. But you said that Djanet Sears, I love this quote, and I want to understand it from your mouth. She gave you well, I'll say gave me my strut. Yeah. Talk, tell us what it means for someone to give you your strut.

Weyni Mengesha

To give you your strut Yeah, I mean, I said it impulsively at that moment, but it means it's still vibrates to me. It was um, you know, learning. In university, first of all, again, she was this woman who had written this play that I finally picked up that represented me. So, I located her and basically asked her to mentor me, and she has always been a change maker, a leader by example. And I, and working on that show, where she was doing something, I had never seen before with that many telling a Black Canadian story at that scale so unapologetically. And I wanted to learn more about Black Canadian theatre. And in my, you know, I said, I went to my directing program and second year, and by my third year, I was frustrated and with some of the gaps that I saw, and then my mother was like, You're frustrated, what, what are you going to do about it?

So, I went to the Dean and talked to them. And I created an independent study that they supported me, and which was really wonderful. And it was a paper that I wrote in search of the Canadian theatre aesthetic. And I went from coast to coast doing research, and it was all inspired by Djanet because she wanted to define what an African Canadian aesthetic was. Like, she wanted to understand that more and define it, and she had a big thing around writing things down so that the next generation could, could have and we weren't always starting from scratch.

And just knowing you have that history, knowing you have, there's an actually this really deep history of Black Canadian theatre that I never knew about that goes back a century, that kind of thing, it gives you your strut. Because all of a sudden, you're not sort of the first and you know, we'd like to talk about that a lot. We like to celebrate the first a lot. And I think we have to stop thinking that something that we should be proud of, and actually do the research. And there's so much history. And actually, we're standing on the shoulders of many people, right?

John Monahan

So, interesting you talked about, in a sense, standing on the shoulders in a way of your family history, but also standing on the shoulders of the theatrical history, personified by someone as amazing and accomplished as Djanet Sears.

Do you see yourself as shoulders for current and future generations of people that are looking for role models that are looking for mentorship and people to look up to, do you see yourself as that? And does that ever feel heavy for you?

Weyni Mengesha

I, you know, I tried to go. I tried to think about the gaps that I had to fill for myself to to succeed. And I'd like to make sustainable change. I mean, so when I couldn't find that Black Canadian monologue, one of the things I was really excited about was working on that or being a director to work on that kind of work.

And one of the things we did by our third year was create The Kink in my Hair with Trey Anthony. And that all of a sudden, we had eight monologues published. And when I got out of university, and I started to direct women were auditioning for me with those monologues and learning about that play across the country.

And so, you know, in doing in trying to create the thing that you're missing, I think you are building a stone for someone else to step on. You know, and it's important, I think we talk about that a lot. And with Djanet, as well as that we have to write down write down our history. And make sure that there's access to what we're creating. So, I try to always allow assistant directors in my room.

Soulpepper you know, it's really important that we have a lot of training as an education is at the heart of our company. It's all free. And even our academy is actually a paid programs are part of the academy. I was a graduate. Yeah, I was a graduate of the academy, the inaugural Academy. Yeah. So, I think those things like it's a it's a big part of why I want to come back to Soulpepper, because it's really important value for me is that being a part of supporting the next generation in a barrier free way. So yeah, I try wherever I can to make it a little easier and to inspire also next generation to want to come into this sector.

John Monahan

And also, to create really engaging entertaining theater that that is encouraging and fostering the conversations that you're trying to have, but doing it in a really entertaining way, which I personally think you achieve beautifully.

But do you ever do you ever think about both those two elements as as in being in tension with one another? Being trying to foster conversation and create engaging entertainment or do they seem like they are in alignment with you or is that you don't even think of them as two distinct elements. Maybe they're the same thing.

Weyni Mengesha

I think they're the same. It's that thing that you know, sometimes feels like a contradiction but that thing we know in theater that the more specific the more universal, the more authentic, the more people can relate and see themselves.

So, I think when just pursuing truth and pursuing those stories that maybe are not often told, I mean, the beauty of theatres, it's like, we tell each other our secrets in the dark. And what are those secrets? And how can we be brave about what we're actually sharing? And I think once we do that, once we open those doors, it becomes entertaining, because it's titillating. It's truthful, it's an honest place that, that brings us all together and you know, embodies feelings. So, I don't worry about the entertainment part. I feel like if we're truly, if courage is our North Star, often it leads to incredible humor and drama, and all of those things that we love in the theater.

John Monahan

Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, it's interesting to watch people walk down the street, and they pass a reflective window, and most people are going to stop and check themselves out, and theater in a way that certainly the way you're describing it, portraying stories that are so specific that they are universally relatable people are seeing themselves or versions of themselves on the stage. So that in and of itself kind of engages people, because they're learning about the characters, obviously, but they're learning about themselves at the same time. So, I suppose that's part of the fascination of theater.

Weyni Mengesha

Yeah, I think, I think, I think we think that we're, we choose our narratives, and we choose our communities based on our narratives of life, you know, story is huge part of how we, how we live, how we create, you know, it's part of a huge part of how we function and survive. And I think, when we see stories from other people, we realize that actually, there's a lot more in common than we think it starts to break boundaries.

You know, I feel like the last two years where we haven't been engaging in theatre, and we've been a lot more on our devices, you know, I personally feel like it leads to that polarization a lot quicker, because the nuance starts to go, it's a lot easier to not consider someone's humanity, when they're not talking when you're not seeing their face. It's a lot easier to think about things theoretically, as opposed to seeing a personal story, an example of something, again, it's theater is the it is the embodiment of these feelings. And as opposed to only bringing your mind to something, you're bringing your whole self and you can't help even even even over film, you can't help but feel feel with the energy of what's going on on the stage.

You know, I always say to people, there's that distinct feeling. When you go into a theater, and there's nobody there, it's different. If you're in a theater, that's a film auditorium, you know, you might be like, oh, stretch out. But if you go to an empty theater, it's depressing. Right? We go there for that social convening, we go there to create this temporary community every night and to vision together. You know, I really believe it's that sacred. And I think we really felt the loss of that.

John Monahan

Because it can't be replicated, right? That, that two-hour 30-minute block of time with those people is never going to be replicated exactly the same way, is it?

Weyni Mengesha

Never, never.

And even though it doesn't often happen, the fact that you know, if you felt like you could yell out, if you felt like it, you could affirm a character's, you know, statement. And sometimes it happens, sometimes, it's uncontrollable, it comes out of their mouth, and, and then everybody will laugh, because they want to also affirm that comment. And, you know, there's this desire to talk to each other, you know, and I find in, you know, living in the States for the last year, and 10 years, and coming back, and just sort of recognizing sometimes real reluctant as Canadians, like, at a bus stop, you know, we like kind of quiet and then someone, someone talks about something and next thing, you know, everybody's chatty, you know, I think we want to, we want to have a conversation, but there's a sometimes a politeness or something. And I just think we need we need we need these places to convene and to recognize each other.

John Monahan

So, good opening for a little bit of conversation about what the last two years have taught us.

Of course, the title of tonight's event, again, is What Art Teaches us in Perilous Times. I think we can all agree that a global pandemic is a perilous time, bummer, right and but it's not as if that's been the only challenge, right?

It's a time when the racial violence has been. I don't want to say the peak. Although it would be wonderful, we're on a decline. But there have been incredibly notable social movements focused around racial injustice, opposing police brutality. Of course, we have war in many different corners of the world. And COVID.

So, yes, perilous times in the program notes for your last play at Soulpepper, Pipeline, which was wonderful. I I read this in your in your opening message you said, “planning our 25th season during a time when theaters were closed across the globe, made me reflect on what truly on what truly makes what we do essential?”

Can you just talk a little bit about that the essential importance of what you do?

Weyni Mengesha

I think it's what I was speaking about, you know, that, again, it's providing nuance to the conversation. It's centering the human experience over what kind of sort of ideology, politics, you know, it's asking people to really consider each other's experiences, you know, and I think that's what a bit of the reckoning was about was that there was enough time to really recognize each other's experiences in a way that we had never seen. I mean, we hadn't seen institutions talk about racial inequities in statements, unless it was like, you know, I don't know, a hurricane or something that was that was definitely dealing with me. But this is this was a social decision to be responsible in this way to be accountable in this way.

Which, you know, we had never seen. And I think that is because, again, social media and being able to watch George Floyd's murder in that way, it's an experience. And that's ultimately what moves us. That's ultimately what makes impact is being able to understand each other's experiences in a way. That's because we've been talking about police brutality forever, you know, I experienced things when I was in when I was a teenager, and it's the stats have always been there.

And that's what I mean, it's the experience that actually moves people. It's that song that sometimes a started a revolution, it's that photo from Vietnam, it's art. So, yeah, I think that it is, it's been clear, you know, that we need to come together. And I think people have been saying, like, I didn't know, you were going through this, or I didn't know that was happening in this community.

And the truth is, there are the books to know. But we haven't had the time and we haven't had the art and the experiences to really, again, let us understand that. My narrative is your narrative. And we have this you know, there's a lot of places that we intersect.

John Monahan 28:15

You knew this already, before the pandemic, I mean, this is your your area of expertise. Did even you learn something about the importance of the arts, of the theater arts, in particular, by being deprived of them in the sense for a good chunk of time?

It's one thing for someone who has kind of a casual observer of theatre or film or some other or live performance, but you've been steeped in this for a while, you know how important it is. But did even you learn during that period, when we were deprived of it?

Weyni Mengesha

I learned lots of things I learned that, you know, I learned unfortunately, and two things, I learned that performance art was not considered essential. You know, in as far as where financial safeties came in, and where government came in, at what point it came in, you know, unlike you can say, our counterparts and film where it was assumed that they had more financial means to do the protocols. But that was not.. there wasn't enough fast acting, we lost, you know, obviously, there's a huge blow in the sector, we've lost a lot of artists.

That was the first thing, and it was something to understand and to appreciate. The second thing was saying, we better look deeply, and we better examine how we become more essential, more obviously essential. The first question is, do people are we accessible enough? Do we matter to most of the city? Or do you only engage with us if you can come into our buildings, and you can only engage with only come into those buildings for a certain price point, and a lot of large institutions that's not accessible for many people.

We have to reconsider that. What is our positioning as a cultural institution in the city, what is our responsibility? How do we become essential like that it's that everybody should know that? So, I think it's both ways. You know, I think it was easy to sort of say, how could we not be considered essential? Like, it's time for all of us to take to really consider, you know, I think as we're doing with everything else in our world, we're really taking some time to consider and examine how we function, our place in this world, and I think theater needs to do the same thing.

So, for us, there's already things that we've learned, you know, because we were digital, because we created films, we were in schools across the GTA. We were across the country, across the globe, we were in more countries we've ever ever been in. And we started to recognize that we have to get out of our building, actually.

And so, we've partnered with the city, and we did an installation that's currently on actually, where we've done. We've had 10 artists take over the Toronto history museums. And you can see it every weekend in the next couple of months. And they're, they're animating those museums, and we're just getting out there and trying to partner more with the city we partner with Harborfront. I think we all have the responsibility to be more accessible, and to let everybody know, and to make it more obvious that we are essential.

John Monahan

Do you think there's a better understanding of the essential importance of theatre in the United States perhaps and the reason Canada, or are we we both have a lot of growing to do?

Weyni Mengesha

I think Europe is a good model, you know, just as far as the state funding the state funding, which of course, if that's the case, and you know, that you're getting that money, you're going to find more experimental work, because artists are going to take risks. They're not, they're, you know, they're actually following their guts, and they're not trying to fit into the boxes, that's always going to be a part of what happens. So, it's something it's, again, it's both ways, how can we begin sort of more essential? How can we get more government support, so that artists can be, you know, can take those risks, and artists can really speak to the people.

John Monahan

And so, the government understands that, that the arts have an essential role to play in building community, which is one of the goals of government. Right to their ministries of citizenship. Well, what is that if not a form of community building? But how engaged is the government with arts companies like Soulpepper and Canadian Stage and whoever else to actually intentionally work to build community?

Weyni Mengesha

Yeah, and I think it goes both ways. We have to prove to them that that's true. And we would love to see them be a larger part of our income line. You know, the arts are heavily you know, they count on the philanthropic support of our communities, which is amazing. But not everyone has access to that. All not all the storytellers on all the companies. So how do we create a more equitable system?

John Monahan

And then that makes it very much feast or famine, right? You're in you're, you're fighting over a very limited pool of deep pocketed philanthropists to be able to achieve your artistic goals. Yeah. Tell me, what do you see what else? What is the the role of arts companies like Soulpepper, in helping society collectively address some of the issues we talked about, like inequality and polarization, climate crisis?

The list is endless. What do you see as the role for you and your colleagues at Soulpepper or in Canadian Theater generally? And is that more of a weighty responsibility or a joyful one for you to be involved in that work?

Weyni Mengesha

It is just a realistic one, because we are the platform of the people, we have to reflect our times we have to make sure that we're porous enough that people can figure out how to get in there and to be able to tell their stories.

So of course, we also program that I mean, we had we've had green summit every year. We definitely feel we have a civic responsibility. So, I think there I you know, that does not I think most artists are trying to reflect something that feels urgent to them or to society. So, it doesn't, it feels it's our passion. It doesn't feel like a heavy load. But the structural part, how do we get people to come in? And how do we get people to understand that? You know, I think that there's a relationship to that the mental health health crisis in the last two years, and not having any access to social places to gather, and art.

You know, how do we make those lines? And how do we make that understanding a bit more clear? So that, yeah, that we see our ourselves as a civic institution in the city that is for the people that is supported by the people? Yeah, I think I think that the the part that's hard is just trying to figure out the structures and solving how theatre, which is not been, you know, not been thought of as a popular sport. Like it's not, it's not going to go see the Raptors at this point.

We have to figure that out. How do we make it more essential for young folks? How does the next generation take this up? You know, that's why one of the first things we did was make Soulpepper 25 and under is free for anything you want to come and see at all times. Because it's essential, they don't find belonging, if they don't feel ownership of the spaces, we won't have them. It's been incredible. It's been incredible. And not just for them. It's been incredible for everybody who's sharing space with them, you know, that it's intergenerational, which is a really important conversation to have right now.

John Monahan

Has the audiences changed, then in response to some of these levers that you're able to pull to make it more affordable for young people to attend the theater by reaching out intentionally, to communities that have been traditionally underrepresented in theater audiences?

Do you find… tell me how does the experience change for those people that are on the stage, those people that are involved in, in presenting, how does that how does changing the audience changed the experience of making Theatre?

Weyni Mengesha

It, it's that feeling that we feel when we realize we're in an echo chamber on Facebook, when we're when we don't, we don't want to be talking to ourselves, we're there because we believe that we want to have a conversation with the city. And it's our responsibility to make sure that that city that we're radically inviting, the city to understand that they're that they have a place there. So, you know, the artists love it, you know, like for pipeline, there was young people at all the shows, and it was, there's a different relationship to the to the stage has a different relationship to the culture, and even how you behave in the theater.

John Monahan

I was gonna say hope they don't have that same Canadian reserve that many of you alluded to earlier, where we are afraid to engage in conversation, I would hope that they would be able to enjoy visceral responses and reactions to what they're they're witnessing in front of them on the stage. And I would imagine that if they do that, that energy kind of feeds the players in a different way.

Weyni Mengesha

It really depends on the ratio of that night, you know, but I think it's our job to ensure that they feel that, that anyone feels that that's appropriate, you know, those are the things is like to shift these cultural norms like and to acknowledge, just like, a lot of this cultural reckoning has been a last year, it's just a bit about acknowledging. Acknowledging what was because I think a lot of times, we'd like to just move on to the better page. And you know, smile, and indeed be good as Canadians. But truthfully, the only way we can get to anywhere of change is to acknowledge its truth is to is to name the things that are the problems, right.

And I think we have to name that most folks, if you just go up to them. And they're they're young, and they feel like oh, a theater ticket. There's not like $100? Like, I'm going to go to a concert.

That yeah, that some of our largest institutions in the city, to name that what the demographics look like they're, and that they might feel out of place. So how do we send a message? And that's why I use the word radical gesture, because I feel like it's our responsibility to clearly invite someone who has not been invited to your home.

John Monahan

Right. Yeah. And to understand that this is their home too.

Weyni Mengesha

Their home. Yeah, yeah. And so how do we how do we make sure that there are also other access points that they're cabarets there are different ways you can engage with the theater and like yoga on the weekends and these are the kinds of things we're interested in is that this is a civic space.

John Monahan

You know, your your reference to the polite Canadian.

I'm flashing back on my late mother who I used to, in some ways, think of kind of the quintessential polite Canadian and she used to say if she ever had like a bad customer service experience or something she would say, I was so angry I almost said something. That that, to me seems kind of a quintessential Canadian response to things that perturb us.

Weyni Mengesha

Yeah.

John Monahan

Right. And, boy, we do need to sometimes let it out and express outrage and exasperation and and then do something about it.

Weyni Mengesha

We do, or we gotta go to the theater, and the artists will do it for us. And we can cheer them on. Yeah, but that is exactly its release. Yeah.

John Monahan

Quick speed round. Three final questions. Nothing scary, I can assure you.

So, first speed round question. We've already said the changemakers are leaders by example. Are there any particular leaders whose example you follow in your work?

Weyni Mengesha

Well, I mentioned Djanet Sears. She is a trailblazer. And she definitely made my path a lot easier. You know.

I also Nina Simone, Toni Morrison, these are people that I read their quotes, I read their work, and I feel energized, so brave, at a time that would have been, you know, really, really hard to speak out in the way that they did. And, but with art and with heart and just, yeah, a fierceness that I you know, I still feel quite Canadian sometimes. But sometimes I channel my inner Nina.

John Monahan

Oh, well, you go.

We talked a lot about your successes are in the introduction, in particular, and there are many in your career, many more to come. But would you feel comfortable sharing a failure from your professional life that you have learned from and what did you learn, and how has it helped you move forward?

Weyni Mengesha

It would be about compromises, which are great in relationships and in life, but in art, tricky, you know?

I think as a as an artist, I once I made a compromise about a casting choice. Wonderful actor, wonderful play, not the right part for that actor. But I was young, and I wanted to work in this huge institution. And I took the job. And again, wonderful actor loved it. It just wasn't the show I wanted to do. And luckily, that happened when I was young, because I never made that mistake again. And I think you just have to, yeah, you have to be you have to do exactly what you want to do in art. Because again, that is when it will reverberate is that when you put yourself there on the stage is when people will recognize themselves.

John Monahan

Above all else to their own self be true. Right?

Weyni Mengesha

That's it. So, I that has tested, sticks around.

John Monahan

Sticks around.

Where were you when you're 18? You were living, were you in Scarborough then?

Weyni Mengesha

I was in Scarborough.

John Monahan

As I was about three decades ahead of you. But if you can go back and talk to your 18-year-old self, about how to be a changemaker going forward? What advice would you offer, knowing what you know now?

Weyni Mengesha

Don't give up. They're gonna say no first, maybe even three times and then they'll say yes, or you'll find another path.

John Monahan

So be relentless.

Weyni Mengesha

Relentless.

John Monahan

Excellent. I love that.

All right, we have a few questions. As I said, some are prerecorded questions from students that are involved in the Hart House theatre community here at the University of Toronto. And if we're ready with the first question, it is from Anthony Palermo. So, watch your screens.

Anthony Palermo

Hi, my name is Anthony Palermo. I am going into my fourth year of the theater and drama studies Specialist Program at UTM. And this past year, I was a work study student at Hart House theatre. And my question is, how often do you program a show that you believe could be a risk in your theatrical season? And what factors lead you to believe that that show could be successful? Thank you.

Weyni Mengesha

How often do you program a show that you think will be a real risk?

I think all the shows. I think it's part of the recipe, right?

John Monahan

Always take risks.

Weyni Mengesha

Because if you're doing the thing that's already been done… I mean, this is the thing I always think. And sometimes we debate about this at work, you know, like this is what audiences like. So, what will we only do what audiences like? I mean, how will we, how will we know what the next thing is like, we also have to tell the audiences what the next thing is, it's part of our job, right? Like, there, we are being employed to be considering this all the time and thinking about listening to all these voices.

So, I think there's been many times and we've been told, it's not going to sell, it's not going to happen. And time and time again, I've seen that not be true at all. And it's been the thing that it's been the gaps being filled, it's been the thing that people have not seen, it's been the fresh voice. It's been that that secret that people thought was only there that they can't help, but they have to go and share that. And they have to tell friends to come and see it.

So, risk is an important ingredient, I think, in change. And I think that we have a responsibility to do that to push the envelope. I think art we are not just reflecting society, but we are cultural builders.

John Monahan

And I suppose if if audiences didn't respond to a risky show, you would learn from that. And it wouldn't mean that you would forego risk in the future. It would just maybe, I don't know, it would inform your next choice, but it wouldn't mean that you would take a safe choice. Is that fair?

Weyni Mengesha

100%. And, I mean, some of our most famous, you know, if you look at check off, the seagull was a flop flop, probably the first three productions, and now we're still doing it, you know, it's, sometimes we have to be ahead of the curve. That's okay.

You know, we have to be having the conversations that maybe people want to have, but they're not ready to have. But it's still our responsibility, I think, to be brave, and, and to take risks. And I think that also ultimately, our audiences are smart, and they want to be challenged. And they don't want to be talked down to, and they want something to strive towards.

John Monahan

We have another question from a wonderful student Kimia Karachi. And let's hear what Kimia asks you.

Kimia Karachi

Hi, there, my name is Kimia, and I just finished my fourth and final year at the University studying drama, theater and performance studies on the St. George campus. I have been involved with Hart House through the work study program, the theater student committee and the festival of dance. And my question is, what is your artistic process and goal for choosing the seasons shows?

John Monahan

What's your artistic process and goal when choosing your season's shows?

Weyni Mengesha

Well, I'll start by saying why I shifted from being a freelance artist who directed a show or two in a season to wanting to program all of the shows in a season. And it was because I think I didn't just direct a show, I often would go into the building and talk to the marketing department and say, you know, this is a show that these audiences haven't often come to this theater, how do we how are we going to be creative about like, to me, the story goes beyond just the play goes beyond just the performance. It's the story of how you tell audiences what we're even talking about how you invite them to come.

And often I would work really hard to figure out the creativity around inviting people in and you know, and build up, build up an audience for that show. And then there wouldn't be another show that sort of spoke to that audience again, for maybe three years. And then you'd have to regenerate that whole thing.

So, I started to get tired of that. And I started to wonder, like, what if we had a conversation with the city instead of just with one audience in one show? What would that look like? And how could we have a lot of artists contribute to that conversation? So the process is that we we read plays together, we have readers, we have a lot of the academies every you know, every year so we have a lot of Academy Alumni who are part of the company and in shows and a lot of them bring us shows and so yeah, the process of hearing the shows is it's constantly happening.

We're constantly having readings, and we had a series called fresh ink for months that was just playwrights reading 10-minute excerpts just to recognize new artists or commissioning new artists all the time. And then we find a theme and we figure out what what do we what do we want to talk about this year? And then we start to slot the shows in to have a conversation around that theme.

And one of the ways that we're accountable, I guess you could say, to our city is we have something called a community conversation for every show. And we think about what we're going to talk about, like what's the community conversation? What community leaders from different sectors can we bring together to have a really interesting and and, you know, enriching conversation about this play? And if we say not really anything, and maybe that shows not the show.

That's one of the one of our checkpoints is that it's like, what is that community conversation? Is it relevant? Is it interesting? Is it important? Is it somewhat urgent is it you know.

And not that we can't have just entertaining shows they can be? But often, a really good laugh, lies closely to something really important and deep in our hearts, you know, so usually, they're about something that strikes a chord in this place in time

John Monahan

Sounds to me, then, like your whole season is really shaped as an ongoing conversation. Rather than you know, I suppose as a freelancer, you're having a really great paragraph. Right. But you've got the opportunity to really extend your your mutual engagement with your audience over the course of a four or five production season this year.

Weyni Mengesha

Seven this year. Yeah

John Monahan

Is that a particularly large season, it seems it to me.

Weyni Mengesha

Not for Soulpepper. Yeah. So, we, we usually do plays all the all year round, but we started a little bit later because of the pandemic. But yeah, it's an average season.

John Monahan

Third question from a student. This is from Dhanya Dass, who was a very active student in Hart House Theater, who is now I believe back home in Malaysia, but let's hear from Dhanya.

Dhanya Dass

Hello, my name is Dhanya, and my pronouns are she/her, I studied economics and sociology at the UTM campus of UofT. I've been working with Hart House for around three years. I started off as an assistant director work study, and then a co-chair and the Theater standing committee. And my question to you is looking at how far Theatre has come since the start of the pandemic, what excites you most about theater right now? And as a follow up question, what have you learned about your industry when it had to go quiet for a while? Thank you.

Weyni Mengesha

Well, I think the second question we kind of touched on we do think.

The first question, what excites me: audiences, real ones that are not on Zoom.

But just being able to see a bit more fuel and for all of us to lean into change I would say.

I think we I think, again, this moment of recognition, this this, this reckoning we've been talking about, allows all of us to feel a bit more courage and tenacity in going in questioning, examining how we how we make theatre. Some of our practices have just gone on for centuries, and we've never questioned them. You know, artists work six days a week, and often 10-to-12-hour days in tech rehearsals. And if you have a family, it's just not sustainable.

John Monahan

It doesn't work.

Weyni Mengesha

As my husband will say, he’s here in the front row. It's, it's tough. And so that's something we changed. We now do five-day rehearsals. And as soon as we did that sort of fog of clarity, and it actually were way more efficient.

And it's just, you know, again, we've been doing things for so long in a certain way that we didn't question them. And I'm excited about questioning them. And I'm excited about our staff and our board who's really engaged, and I think is just, you know, whoever anticipated a global pandemic, I think we just understand the time is now to be brave, and the world can change. And what we should be doing is the best we can at the moment.

John Monahan

I want to get to a couple of questions before we wrap up that have come in via Zoom and here in the audience as well.

Here's an interesting Zoom question. During one of the lock downs, I saw a few online video pieces, incorporating dance and music that Soulpepper had a hand in producing. Could you speak about the process of creating those pieces and how that might affect your future work? As in did it open up new ways to think about creating for you?

Weyni Mengesha

Definitely, yeah, one of those pieces was A Revolution of Love which we partnered with the city on, and we sort of took over Fort York and had a big dance piece on it and which you can see at Soulpepper, at the website.

It started our relationship with the city, which we then after that it was it went really well. And then we ended up taking doing all the 10 sites, and we've created this ongoing partnership with them. And also recognize that we can make film and that we should make film. And that ultimately, we're content creators. And all platforms are storytelling platforms. And I think they have to be if we want to be, again, really speaking to all generations.

John Monahan

Great question from someone here in the audience. And that is, what have you seen recently that really moved you as an observer of theater and why?

Weyni Mengesha

Oh, boy, I haven't. What have I seen recently? It has been a while since I've gone to the theater.

Yeah, that was great. My husband helping me out.

John Monahan

That's what husbands are for.

Weyni Mengesha

I just saw Is God Is, at Canadian Stage, my dear friend Mumbi directed which was powerful.

And I saw, ah, it's been a lot of movies and everything else least recently and outdoor things and dance. And it's been I've been really moved by people sort of taking things outdoors and working in experimental ways.

So yeah, but we did a festival called Her Words last year, a bunch of new writing. And I'm really inspired by those playwrights and those plays that are coming out. And you know, usually we don't move this quickly. But one of them was Goneril, which takes place seven years before King Lear. And we're about to go into rehearsal on June 13. So, with that, a repertory Goneril and Lear together. So, I'm really excited to start working on that show. And that opens in September.

John Monahan

Amazing. Well, sadly, we are at the end of our appointed time. I hope that those joining us via zoom and certainly here in the theater will agree with me that Weyni Mengesha is a Changemaker. She deserves that title. And please join me in thanking her for her time this evening.

Thank you so much to Weyni Mengesha for joining me in conversation today. You can find Weyni on Instagram where her handle is @weynimengesha or follow Soulpepper Theatre on Instagram or Twitter. Look for @soulpeppertheatre.

This changemakers conversation was produced and supported by the great team at Hart House. They include Jenifer Newcombe, Lena Yusim, Michele Cheh, Amy Wang, Megan Mueller and Janine Raftopoulos. The Hart House Theatre team deserves thanks. They are Doug Floyd, Brian Campbell, Gillian Lewis, Tim Davidson and Parker Nolan. And a special word of thanks to our emcee Liam Donovan. This podcast has been edited by Janine Alhadidi, and the original music is by Recap, they can be found on SoundCloud. To learn more about Changemakers please visit www.harthouse.ca or follow us on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube or Facebook. Our handle is @harthouseuoft. I'm John Monahan. Thank you for listening. Bye bye.

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thewestmeetingroom · 2 years

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Hart House Changemakers: Disability, Inclusion and Accessibility in a Post-COVID World - What Lies Ahead? with Lorin MacDonald

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

disability, people, accessibility, pandemic, community

SPEAKERS

Lorin MacDonald, John Monahan

Changemakers Series: Disability, Inclusion and Accessibility in a Post-COVID World - What Lies Ahead? with Lorin MacDonald

John Monahan

Hello, and welcome to the Changemaker Series presented to you by Hart House Conversations.

This is a series of fireside style chats between myself, John Monahan, the warden of Hart House, and inspiring folks whose discontent with the status quo propels them to be the change they want to see in the world. It is my great pleasure to be your host.

We are broadcasting today from Hart House at the University of Toronto's downtown campus. And we are grateful to be coming to you from the traditional lands of the Huron Wendat, the Seneca and both the traditional and Treaty lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit.

Today I am delighted to break into a conversation featuring human rights lawyer and disability advocate Lorin MacDonald. Together we discuss the topic of Disability, Inclusion and Accessibility in a Post-COVID World - What Lies Ahead? Let's begin.

For more than a century Hart House has been a student focused center that enriches students learning outside the classroom through engagement with the arts, wellness and dialogue. And it is the third of these pillars dialogue that brings us here tonight for the third event in our Changemakers Series this year. And while we are coming to you virtually tonight, I want you to know that our spaces are open again for most activities, and we look forward to welcoming you back into our building on the St. George campus of the University of Toronto at future events.

Changemakers is a series of fireside style chats with inspiring folks whose discontent with the status quo propels them to be the change that they want to see in the world. We call them Changemakers. And these are folks who devote their lives to effecting meaningful and sustainable change in the interests of justice and equity. Simply put, they are people who see a need for change and respond to it. They are leaders by example.

I am beyond delighted to again welcome you to tonight's presentation on Disability, Inclusion and Accessibility in a Post-COVID World - What Lies Ahead? And I can think of no one better to engage this topic than our special guest, Lorin McDonald.

Lorin is a human rights lawyer and one of Canada's most respected voices and committed advocates when it comes to accessibility and disability issues and disability justice more generally. Lorin has presented over the years to 1000s of people both inside and outside of the disability and the legal communities, and she is known as someone who can and does influence minds, she moves hearts, she propels people to positive action, and Lorin always uses her superpowers for good.

Her passion for and her commitment to accessibility and inclusion are informed by her own lived experience as a woman born with profound hearing loss. Lorin has been honored for her contributions by her alma mater Western University in London by the City of London by numerous nonprofit and community organizations by the province of Ontario by the legal profession and many other organizations.

Last year in 2021, Lorin received two prestigious national honors. First Canadian Lawyer magazine named her one of its top 25 Most Influential lawyers in the Human Rights category. And she was also included in Canada's list of Most Powerful Women, the top 100 list by the Women's Executive Network. And that same network also honored Lorin with its prestigious Inclusion Vanguard Award. So with no further delay, please join me in welcoming Lorin MacDonald. Tonight's changemaker. Hi, Lorin.

Lorin MacDonald

Hey, how are you, John?

John Monahan

I'm so happy to see you. I'm well thank you. And I'm looking forward to this conversation with you tonight.

Lorin MacDonald

It's gonna be great. I thank you so much for inviting me and before we start, I too belong to the same Treaty 13 being in downtown Toronto. So thank you so much for acknowledging how important those statements are before we get into dive into anything, thank you.

John Monahan

Thank you, Lorin.

Lorin, I want to start if you're amenable with a little bit of your personal journey. So let me start by asking you, do you mind being called a changemaker?

Lorin MacDonald

Um I guess it's better than being called a shit disturber.

John Monahan

Lorin, why choose?

Lorin MacDonald

But no, it's sorry for the language, folks. I'll clean it up from now on.

But, but no, it's, it's a flattering name to be given. But I never take it seriously because there's so much work to be done. But I do acknowledge that I have been able to make some changes happen, some large, some small. And so I guess I come about honestly. So thank you.

John Monahan

I think you do; I think you do.

Lorin, can you tell us a bit more about your personal journey and how it led you to devote your life to this work? Where does your motivation come from, you spend so much time and energy fighting for the rights of people that have relationship to disability? What motivates you to do that?

Lorin MacDonald

From the start, my grandmother, my maternal grandmother was a very, very active community volunteer, my grandfather was a community builder. And so it was very much ingrained that volunteer itself volunteerism and giving back to the community is just what you do, as the rent you pay for your room here on Earth, which is attributed to Muhammad Ali, but many others have laid claim to that as well.

And so I will say without hesitation, that being a volunteer from my teens straight through has allowed me to build the skills in terms of learning about board governance, consensus building, empathy, decision making, and build your confidence, as well, because you may not have those opportunities in your paid work, just starting out.

And then that volunteerism, it changed over the years that I was able to see that from when I was in my 20s I was it was more about learning, and learning how things work, learning how teams work, learning how to accomplish a certain goal than before you. But then as I moved into my 30s, I became much more focused on what can I do as someone living with a disability to make Ontario more accessible? And so I was involved with the Ontarians with Disabilities Act committee with David Lepofsky, who was the head of that, and, and so I was more focused on learning, what could I do in that regard.

And then, of course, when I finished law school, and entered the profession, my focus in volunteer work shifted again, so that I was doing more work within the legal profession with the Ontario Bar Association, the Law Society, our Disability Law Center, and that. So that's how I could see the progression. But all of those volunteer experience, it definitely, definitely informed me as I was going through my professional path, which again, what transformed because initially, I was working in advertising and public relations, but for very communication driven professions, yet, I was living with a communication disability.

And so I had to learn through trial and error that this might not be the right profession for me, especially in public relations, where it's all about schmoozing at the cocktail parties. And it can be a little difficult to, to hear what's going on. And so I progressed from that into doing professional events. And I'm very a good organizer, so I love doing that. Then moved into government, working with Mayor Art Eggleton back in the day at the City of Toronto, and it was a great, great opportunity, I still keep in touch with Art to this day, moved into nonprofit.

So back then in the 80s and the 90s it was quite acceptable to kind of move around until you found your place. Almost much like what it is now in our very contract driven temporary employment field that we have.

And so it was when I had a car accident that was actually 25 years ago, last month, I was running my own business, a small office services company, because my previous job as the Executive Director of the Barrier Free Design Center, in College Park, back then, was an architectural firm that sought to make environment both physical as well as attitudinal environment accessible for people with disability. But this was 1994. And so at that point, people weren't ready to have that conversation.

So when the government cut the funding, I went back to my hometown, and set up my own, just as a temporary. It was just an office services company small. And then I had the car accident that made it very difficult for me to walk. And I had chronic headaches and migraines. So my lawyer at the time for the personal injury suit said to me, you know, have you ever thought about what you're going to do now?

And I said, Well, I'm not sure. But I don't think this is going to work for me. And he says, oh, have you ever thought about going to law school? And so at the time, I thought, yeah, I like legal shows and books and stuff like that. Sure. Because, and then I thought, well, sure. How hard can that be? And I only applied to one law school. And I got in.

But the thing is, is that I was able to take all of that volunteer experience I have in disability and later and realize that everything was about paperwork, and politics. And I thought if I knew the law and understood it, I could really be a force for change by understanding the process. And so that's when that morphed into me having my own practice. Sorry for the long answer.

John Monahan

No, it's a great answer. So both of us went to law school in our 30s, we were

Lorin MacDonald

Very kind, but I was 41. I don't know about you.

John Monahan

That's a that's a rounding error.

Small details. I was never good with math.

But one of the things, one of the reasons I went was I remember, someone told me that Madame Justice Bertha Wilson, the great Supreme Court Justice, she had gone to law school in her 30s. And her reason for doing that was she thought that law, the study of law was the perfect way to finish one's education. And so I kind of went to law school, I never really wanted to be a lawyer, I just wanted to become one. What about you? Did you did you want to be a lawyer in order to be able to make some of the systemic changes that you have been so fighting so hard to make?

Lorin MacDonald

Well, of course, I think that I was really hoping to create change. And I envisioned, you know, being the first lawyer with profound hearing loss to appear before the Supreme Court of Canada, and, but more importantly, I really wanted to a get a strong liberal arts education. And, I say that once you enter law school, you're ruined, because you have an understanding of the law. And you see it everywhere. In every story that you read in the paper that you hear on the news, you see the legal implication, because of course it was Shakespeare who wrote the first thing we do is kill all the lawyers.

Why is that? And I can't cite I think it was Henry, one of the Henry’s in the play, but why is that? It's because lawyers record that law and order. And the first thing if you are corrupt, like certain people are going on right now, the first thing you do is you want to get rid of the lawyer because you don't want any barriers in your way.

So I'm very grateful for my legal education. I highly recommend to students who are looking for a post undergrad degree because they're really does change your worldview for the better, in my opinion, lots of recovering lawyers out there, but our education stays with them.

John Monahan

Lorin, you're also a social entrepreneur, you created an organization called HearVue a few years ago. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Lorin MacDonald

Yeah, and for those who want to check it out, I think the website may be put in the chat (https://hearvue.com/).

And what that was, is that was born out of my personal frustrations, wanting to attend live events. And of course, I needed accommodation for it. I needed to be able to hear what was going on. But the only way I can hear is by viewing through captioning. And so I'm very, very frustrated in constantly requesting communication inclusion. And being told the same thing. No one has asked for it. We have sign language interpreter. Good for you doesn't help me. You know, it’s too expensive. We don't know how it works. We don't have the staff to do this. There's not enough time.

So John, the tipping point really came in June of 2018. When Luminato was in Toronto, and there was an international human rights lawyer named Amal Clooney, who was presenting, and I really wanted to hear what she had to say. Cuz it's important the work she does.

So I request the captioning to make it inclusive, tickets were $300 apiece, and for a seat near the front. And we're told that no, there wouldn't be captioning. But you can buy a ticket near the front. And I'm like, a) it's $300. And b) I'm not going to get everything that is said. And for that kind of money for a ticket I want to have full accessibility.

So at that point, I thought, you know what, something's got to be done, got to be done. And I think that's when a lot of innovation happened when the things happen over and over and someone says that there ought to be a law or, you know, there's a better way to do this. So who better than I to try and do that, but I didn't know how.

So this happened in June of 2018. I suffered from personal losses. Father was diagnosed with terminal cancer mother, seriously ill with Parkinson’s, she was passed a few months later. And fast forward to June of 2019. So a year after that event, and I'm reading Michelle Obama's book Becoming like, who hasn't read Michelle Obama's book. And Michelle Obama was a corporate lawyer. Partway through the book, she talked about how that didn't really satisfy her anymore. It wasn't what her soul needed, and decided she really wanted to be doing health care work, community work, and transition to doing that. And for me, that was a big aha moment, to give myself permission, that it's okay to shift here and not practice law formally but do something different.

And at that moment, I closed the book, no word of a lie, I closed the book decided I need to get moving on this idea that I had in my head. And when I create the idea of having captioning available at large live events on the large screen, Michelle Obama is going to be my first live event. I had no idea how, none, and she had just finished your book tour in Canada.

And I had no idea and I got very busy. I sponsored events, primarily women, primarily charity. I sponsored those events personally to remove the no’s. So the no one could say no, we don't have the money, there’s no staff, we don't know how this works. I said I will come in and do it all for you. And except actually, John today, March 9, two years ago was HearVue’s final event live event before COVID.

And that was the SheEO global summit with Prime Minister Trudeau present and great positive feedback and the biggest shift after COVID and even before with talking about captioning it’s not just for those people who live with hearing loss. It supports English as a second language, people with learning disabilities, people who may not hear in a venue with poor acoustics. It supports everyone. Maybe there's a presenter on the date that you're not hearing well or understanding. And so in five very short months, there was tremendous, tremendous change. But then COVID happened. And here we are. So now HearVue is just a resource.

John Monahan

But I think it sounds like a very important chapter in in your life. And it also sounds like a chapter that is that, like much of your life is helping other people and paying dividends to them.

I'm getting ahead of myself, but you mentioned the pandemic and captioning. I'm wondering, is that one of the, is it a silver lining of sorts in the pandemic, the fact that these sorts of virtual conversations have become more commonplace, and captioning has been more widely available, has that been helpful during this otherwise horrible two years?

Lorin MacDonald

And it's interesting, you say that, because when I set up HearVue, I was also very frustrated by auto generated captioning. Or, for example, if you go to YouTube, you look at a video and you click on that little CC button. And you see what happens. Now, I called that output at the time craptioning because what you see is crap. It is not the same as the court reporter who had trained to provide computer real time transcription.

And so I knew in the summer of 2019, that I had about a five year window, before auto generated captioning, artificial intelligence would improve, because at the time that 70% accuracy versus 99.9 or 5% accuracy of a human, you know, captioner, so I knew I had that time. But when COVID happened, that five year window compressed to about 12 to 18 months. And so that was very, it's a good thing that came out of COVID.

It's still not perfect by any means.

But and I've been trying to educate Zoom and said you cannot charge for this, because it was only available for paid subscriptions, you need to remove this accessibility should not come at a cost. We’re not charging for someone to use a ramp or someone to use an automatic door opener, stop it. And surprisingly, they listened.

And other platforms have varying degrees of success with respect to the captioning. So that is something that came out of COVID. And its just the focus on research and development for technology has been a boom that have come out of COVID.

John Monahan

Lorin, let's talk about accessibility more broadly than okay.

So in Ontario, the signature piece of legislation that supports access, of course, is the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act, or the AODA, you already referenced it. And back when it was launched, it came with the promise that legislation would transform Ontario through a through a focus on strong enforcement and mechanisms for enforcement.

Now, we are just a few years away from the 20th anniversary of the legislation and the timeline by which the AODA was supposed to be fully enacted. But recently, the former Lieutenant Governor David Onley, he submitted an independent review of the implementation of the AODA and the adjective that he used to describe the progress was glacial. Do you agree with his assessment?

Lorin MacDonald

Yeah, absolutely. And first, I want to say that embedded in the legislation are independent reviews that take place every five years. So a shout out to University of Toronto, because Mayo Moran, who was the former dean of your law school, did the second independent review. There now have been three independent reviews. Pretty much saying the same thing. Get it together, Ontario. And let's move on this.

And so when you consider from the first independent review 15 years ago, there's been a population that has grown, and more and more people are acquiring disabilities. And right now we've got 2.9 million Ontarians living with disability. So back in 2005, when the law was enacted, 2025 seemed like far away. But it seemed it felt like an achievable goal, that we can do this. But it's now three years out, and we are not going to be a barrier free province. And fortunately, there is now a fourth independent review underway. And I expect that will be a very interesting report to read.

John Monahan

So how far behind our goals are we, how bad is it?

Lorin MacDonald

Wow. And I always try to focus on the positive first, before I get into my slamming mode.

John Monahan

We want both.

Lorin MacDonald

Well, you know what there has been progress made, absolutely.

17 years ago, the AODA was enacted. And since then, we have various regulations in place. I started working on the customer service regulation, which all of the U of T employees need to do that customer service training to as part of your work. And then we also have regulations in information and communication, employment, transportation, public spaces.

Most recently, there's been work done because everything wasn't covered. And we heard very clearly that there needed to be a regulation for education, as well as for health care. So I was privileged to be appointed to work on the health care standard or standard before comp regulation. We just completed our work last month, and is now with the Minister's Office, the Minister for Seniors and Accessibility for his review, and then pending, his review any additions or what have you, it will start wending its way to becoming a regulation.

So those are really good things. There's been a lot of conversation, the AODA also paved the way for accessibility legislation in other provinces. Such as you know, in Manitoba, that was in 2013, then we have Nova Scotia in 2017. We've got federal legislation now the accessible Canada Act, and that was passed in 2019. And we have the accessible British Columbia Act that it proposed last year that is working through. And so those are the positive.

But what are the things that need to still be done? The problem is that there's a lot of education John, happening about what are your rights as a person with a disability. But the problem is the infrastructure is not there to support people with disability when their rights are infringed. And so they now know, this is not right. You can't do that, and file a complaint with the Human Rights Tribunal. But then the Tribunal is not prepared or not equipped, funded, what have you to handle the influx of complaints.

So that is a very, very difficult thing. And accessibility cannot be the responsibility of one ministry. You know, the government as a whole tone from the top need to implement this. And they need to be a complaint system for reporting a AODA violation. Because that would really help because people right now are their only recourse is really filing a human rights complaint, which is not good. And there's infrastructure that needs to happen because when you consider making transit, accessible, that multi millions of dollars to do that. So there needs to be a reform of how infrastructure either retroactively, or new infrastructure is built in with that disability lens to make sure that there’s no new barrier being enacted. So those are just a few of my thoughts. It's a huge topic, John.

John Monahan

No, no, I know, I know. And, you know, as you're talking, I'm remembering that the, the, the AODA showed such promise, I thought, because the penalties for noncompliance were so significant, wasn't it like $100,000, for every violation like that could accumulate very quickly into the millions of dollars. And to the best of my knowledge, there has been none, like zero or next to zero enforcement.

Lorin MacDonald

Yeah. And I think because the province has adopted a carrot rather than a stick. And you have to consider as well, in a province like Ontario, small business makes up a huge portion of that. It's the mom and pop stores on the corner, and those small employers, and it's hard to keep on top of all of those businesses throughout Ontario. So the province has adopted more of an education approach. And if there's a violation, give you opportunity to correct it.

But of course, there are some violators who are quite egregious in what they've done. But there’s still to my knowledge as well, been no large penalty, monetary penalty thus far. And so that's why we're frustrated, because the AODA came into place, because we were upset about the previous Ontarians with Disabilities Act, lacking teeth, in terms of an enforcement mechanism.

But here we are, almost 20 years later, and I'm not blaming the current provincial government. This was under the previous government, as well. And so there needs to be a political will to advance that perspective of whatever government is in power.

John Monahan

Where do you think that political will will come from?

Lorin MacDonald

Honestly, I think from personal experience, you know, one, the powers that be are personally impacted by disability, either themselves or a loved one, they will have that, they will step out of their privilege of being able bodied, and their eyes will be open.

And I remember the former Minister that had the disability file, Marie Bountrogianni, who is a dear friend, and she said, at one time, and she said it more than once, that she would be talking with businesspeople. And the businessman would say to her, you know, as a businessperson, I'm not happy with the AODA. And it seems to be too, too many rules and regulations and all of that. But as a father of a child with a disability, you're not moving fast enough.

Wow. That's a pretty powerful statement. And it shows you how that personal connection, it mattered. And I think that’s true across everything, you know, you don't truly understand until you walk that mile and someone.

John Monahan

Yes. So the first question from our, our audience participants tonight is, I think a really interesting one. Are there any jurisdictions where accessibility work is being done exceptionally well, any examples that Ontario or Canada should be following?

Lorin MacDonald

Well, and the AODA was built on looking at those other jurisdictions such as other Commonwealth countries, our neighbor to the south. And I have not personally experienced this because I'm, I haven't been traveling but then again, who has in the last two years, but I understand that in England in the UK, there is quite a level of accessibility and that the taxicab that you get in have captioning available when you get into them.

And of course the ADA, it's unfair to compare the AODA and Ontario, to the Americans with Disabilities Act, 1) because they've been in place for 32 years. We're only at 17 years. And, 2) they have the critical mass of people, whereas in Ontario, our generation is spread out so much and in the US there’s the critical mass to create the demand for accessibility services.

And but you know what, all of the jurisdictions, they do something very well, they do something not so well. And so it's very difficult because what the UK does they have a different environment, politically, geographically, in terms of demographics, what have you, then we have here in Canada.

So the AODA was the first legislation that made it mandatory, or compliant. This was something that was not available in any other jurisdiction. So my long answer to that question is that there are some jurisdictions that do things well, but it's very difficult to compare, because we're not the same. You know, but we can learn from each other and adopt approaches as they happen. But we're a province, we're not a country, right. And so when you're talking about the UK, the United States, Australia, versus Ontario, we can't compare.

John Monahan

Speaking of the United States, Lorin, there was a recent survey done of employees in the United States that found that something like three quarters, or more than three quarters of employees with disabilities felt that their employers were doing a better job of providing them with necessary supports during the pandemic than they were before the pandemic.

Now, hopefully, the pandemic is coming to an end soon, but we have seen the rise of remote work, and different considerations around how to engage and support employees. What kinds of opportunities do you see for practicing inclusion better as we consider how to change the workplace or what to keep in the post pandemic environment?

Lorin MacDonald

Yeah, that is an interesting question. I'm always acutely aware of citing US data, and that that's something that's very much missing in Canada that we don't have a lot of current data to inform our decision making. So 77% of employees in the US, is that what we're experiencing here in Canada? But the flavor of it is that a lot of employees in the US feel their employer has been doing well by them, but or better, or better than they were pre-COVID. And but I want to talk first John, about consider pre COVID, that a lot of employees with disability really wanted, some needed, to have the option, the flexibility of working from home and have been told for years and years no, it couldn't happen. No, we're not adopting this policy. No, it's going to be too difficult. I need you in the office. Just try to get on time for your job when you're relying on accessible transit, which is very infrequently on time.

So consider John, the minute the COVID hit. How quickly did employers turn things on a dime to create a workplace that worked from home? Very, very quickly, and why was that? And in my view, that was a damning example of ableism which is prejudice in favor of leaning more towards supporting people living without disability. And so ableism is not a word that was really known that much before COVID, but that to me was the best example of how on a dime, things change, sorry. Go ahead.

John Monahan

When it has to, government can change quickly can change direction can respond. And it goes back to that that political will that you were talking about earlier, when suddenly something is affecting the entire population, anything is possible. But when it is, yeah, yeah, a smaller group than then it's it's much harder. Yeah.

John Monahan

Another really interesting question in the, in the Qs and As, do you as someone who is known as a as an advocate for accessibility, specifically, do you ever feel that accessibility gets lost or overlooked in the broader movement towards equity, diversity and inclusion? Because there are so many other worthwhile and pressing struggles for racial justice for the rights of the trans community? So many struggles happening at once? Do you ever feel that the conversation about accessibility becomes overwhelmed? In that larger conversation?

Lorin MacDonald

Yeah, every single day, John, and this was a struggle that with very real pre-COVID, where it seemed that we were fighting, we meaning the disability community was fighting for airtime, to talk about the needs of the disability community, but once COVID hit at shined that glaring spotlight on inequities pre-COVID that became worse.

And we saw that, again, from our neighbor to the south, I think the George Floyd murder really broke open that conversation about anti-racism. Here in Canada, the discovery of the graves, the residential school graves, broke open a conversation about Indigenous rights, these are not new issues.

You know, the Black community has been struggling for 400 years, you know, and the residential school problem has been apparent and known for quite a while through the Truth and Reconciliation Report. This is nothing new, and the struggles of immigrants and racial racialized people. And those conversations started happening under the umbrella term of bipoc, which I do not like. It cannot possibly lump black Indigenous persons of color all into one group, you’re bipoc. Well, if you are, where are the people with disability, we're off to the side.

But the reality is, disability covers all of bipoc because it also brings to mind the issue of intersectionality, you're not just one person, you're not just a black person, you know, a person of color, and whatever, you have intersecting identities that need to be respected as well. And so I'm very frustrated.

Now, again, I talked about the United States how they have that critical mass, plus they have the Americans with Disabilities Act, the 32 years. So here we call it DEI, for diversity, equity inclusion, but in the states, they call it IDEA, inclusion, diversity, equity, and accessibility. We need to get our A, we need to get our act together to get that A included because it's not. And it's been very frustrating, because throughout COVID People with disabilities were once again left to the side in the conversation about planning for everything from vaccine protocol to emergency funding support. And it just it is tiresome, is very tiresome.

John Monahan

So that leads me to another great question from our from our audience this evening. And I want to thank everyone that has put a question in the q&a. I'm afraid we won't have time for all of them. But thank you for being so engaged. There is a question that I think is really important and that is why. Whether. Let me start again.

What do you see is the role of persons with disabilities in educating other people about disability rights and legal entitlements to accommodation? At what point is it too much to expect a person with a disability to also be the subject matter expert, when it comes to questions about legal rights accommodations?

Another way of I think asking this question is, is it fair to ask you, and other people with disability to do all of the work to advocate for change? You said that the work can be tiring, I bet it's exhausting at times. What should those people that did to not have personal relationship to disability, what should our role be? In the fights that you are fighting, how can we work aside you?

Lorin MacDonald

Well, and just like, John, I'm a human rights lawyer. So I chose that path. But not all, not all people with disability due choose that path, or some may not even be able to choose that path depending on the severity of their disability.

Every day, I wake up and wonder, what hill am I going to die on today? What matter is going to be so important that I simply have to address it. That's a choice I make. Because I've always centered my human rights and accessibility work on how can I amplify or use my voice for people whose voices are muted, or unable to use their voice at all? How can I advance that somehow, but it's the same thing over and over and over again.

And for example, there was a live event or I'm sorry, a virtual event, I request the captioning. Organizer came back, oh, we're so delighted to say we have sign language interpreter for this event. Okay, hell, am I dying? Yes, I am. Okay, I had to educate about that great. But that's not going to be beneficial to me personally, because I need captioning. This is why these are the people that will benefit from having captioning inform about communication inclusion. But that's my choice.

And it's the same John in my view as if you are working in an office, in a workplace, you have an Indigenous employee, you go to them and say, would you mind writing us a land acknowledgement? You know, or a black employee, we need an anti-racism policy, can you do it up for us? It is not the responsibility of marginalized people to fix your problem. You know, it needs to be part of a broader conversation.

And so the most important thing that I say to people when they think of the terms that have come up since COVID, that we didn't know before the term like privilege, you know, term like allyship, and ableism. And those terms were not known, really, or discussed much before COVID. So the first thing I say, you can't be an ally without understanding the history.

You need to really do a deep dive and understanding disability history about eugenics about institutionalization, and for sterilization, residential schools, which were hearing because they were in the disability community as well as the Indigenous community and the social reality that today, you can't get hold your hand up and say, I'm an ally for people with disability really, what do you know about us? And then you have to, you have to learn you have to listen.

And then you have to act for by amplifying voices, by being a sponsor, by looking around you and seeing who is present at the table. Who is not, you know, who is being called in and who is not. And then you also have to prepare to call in people who are more than likely unintentionally excluding people from conversation.

And of course, in human rights law, invariably you get the oh, we never intended to discriminate. That's all well and good, but the impact is the same whether you intended or not. And you need to call in people. I'm not a big fan of calling out, you know, the naming, blaming and shaming. I think it's far better to call in and try and educate and encourage the person, the employer than never to accept responsibility for other unintended impact.

John Monahan

University. Maybe if you're a student, yeah.

Lorin MacDonald

And you need to be very intentional, because representation matters. If you talk the talk, but people pull back the curtain and they see no marginalized people working with you, then what kind of ally are you if there's no representation, or if you're a retailer, but you have no employees with disabilities working with you? Or you have an ad campaign? Oh, we're all about accessibility, but there's no accessibility information to be found. And the biggest thing, too, is always just ask, you know, before you help, just say, you know, am I able to help you? How can I help you and respect boundaries?

Some people with disability don't want help, and they don't appreciate, you know, you assuming that they need help. And it's a huge topic, John, I mean, this whole conversation, within the confines of an hour, it is pretty much impossible. You and I know each other, we could continue talking for hours on this and about passionate, we would love to do it. But for audience members have better thing to do, I suspect.

John Monahan

Maybe not better, they have other things, to do. I don't know that they're better, or no, and it's not my place to judge. Listen, give me give me two more minutes, because we like to end these conversations with our changemakers with what we call our speed round. And I know it's hard for both of us to be speedy. But there are just a few brief questions that I want to ask you.

Are you ready?

So when we when we talk about change makers here at Hart House, we use the phrase leaders by example, what do you think makes a leader?

Lorin MacDonald

Um, I think a leader is someone who sees what's missing, and thinks about what can be improved and a rally people to move them forward toward that better vision, and a leader is somebody who is bold and takes a Damn the Torpedoes approach, and move forward when necessary. But sometimes playing nice doesn't get a result. And so a leader will be empathic and connect with people authentically, but it's prepared to make the hard choices and speak out and speak up.

John Monahan

Can you give us an example of a leader that you admire or who has been particularly influential to your life?

Lorin MacDonald

Yeah, I'm fortunate. I've got three that I really respect.

The earliest one was Diana, Princess of Wales. And you may think that's a fluffy answer and oh she wore pretty close. It wasn't about that. It was if you really look at her legacy, she created a more accessible approach to the public, she championed uncomfortable causes like HIV and AIDS, landmines, visited the homeless shelter and leprosy ward, and she talked about mental health and bulimia.

This was a young woman in her late 20s and 30s. Before at 36 she tragically died. But Royals were never talking about that. It was always gloves on and you just don't talk about something. So I think her legacy needs to be respected.

The next what we heard a lot about during COVID with Dolly Parton again, you might think about the fluffy answer. And oh, she just some ditsy blonde who’s a country singer, but Dolly funded research to create Moderna vaccine.

She also created an imagination library in 1995, which is a book gifting program that mails free high quality books for children from birth to age five, independent of income. And it recently gifted its 150 millionth book in 2020 and it operates in five countries. I think I think that's incredible humanitarian work.

And then last is in our legal realm. Recently retired Supreme Court of Canada, Justice Rosalie Silberman Abella, is she was the one that coined the term employment equity when she did research. She's a child of Holocaust survivor. And she make the law more humane. And she really uses her personal story and talks about how our personal story informs us. And the quote that she uses is, its not just what it stands for, it's what you stand up for. And we can never forget how the world looks to those who are vulnerable. That's powerful, Supreme Court of Canada Justice. So those three women, kicking ass.

John Monahan

Lorin, and I'm sure there are a lot of people on this conversation tonight that would add you to that same list. But let me ask you one last question, because I know we are we are over time now.

If you could go back and talk to an 18 year old Lorin MacDonald, about how to become a changemaker. What advice would you offer her?

Lorin MacDonald

Don't care about what people think. If you've got a bold idea, charge forward, and do it. Because people will always criticize you. And but if you have that inside you move forward. And don't let the naysayers drag you down. It's very important.

All of us are here to create change to be changemakers in my view, but many never get there. Because someone else is saying that's too big a dream. I was told that with HearVue and Michelle Obama, why don't you lower your sight? Don't, why Michelle Obama go for, you know, some community leader and I said no, dream big. What have you got to lose? And that that's the thing that I would definitely I would I was afraid to vocalize what my dreams were. But once I thought that they could happen. Sky's the limit.

John Monahan

Lorin, thank you so much on behalf of everyone at Hart House on behalf of our entire audience for being so generous with your time with your with your intellect with your heart. We're just very grateful to you for all of it.

For today's audience, I hope that you will stay connected to Hart House. I hope that you will join us for the next exciting installment of our Changemakers Series which takes place on the 27th of May of this year with the wonderful Weyni Mengesha, the groundbreaking stage and film director and currently the artistic director of Soupepper Theatre.

Thank you all for coming. I hope you have a wonderful evening and remember to be the change that you want to see in the world. Bye from Hart House.

Thank you so much to Lorin MacDonald for joining me in conversation. You can find Lorin on Facebook or follow her on Twitter @LorinMac.

This Changemakers conversation was produced and supported by the team at Hart House; Jenifer Newcombe, Lena Yusim, Michele Cheh, Megan Mueller and Janine Raftopoulos. The podcast was edited by Janine AlHadidi. Original music is by Recap. They can be found on SoundCloud.

To learn more about the Changemaker Series, please visit harthouse.ca or follow us on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube or Facebook. Our handle is @harthouseuoft.

I'm John Monahan and thank you for listening.

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thewestmeetingroom · 2 years

Text

Hart House Changemakers: Building Resilient Democracies with Sabreena Delhon

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

democracy, people, Sabreena, question, Canada, understand, toxicity, pandemic, conversation, civic, space, important, leaders, feel, thought, justice system, happening, democratic, resilient, life

SPEAKERS

John, Sabreena

John

It's my pleasure to introduce our special guest Sabreena. Sabreena is the Executive Director of the Samara Center for Democracy. A leading public sector strategist, Sabreena has over a decade of experience in developing and executing engagement initiatives that deliver complex information to diverse audiences.

Sabreena has directed provincial research studies that examine public perceptions of the justice system. Results of those studies have informed the work of Ontario's Ministry of the Attorney General and they are now required reading in many Canadian law schools. About six years ago, Sabreena launched something called Access to Justice or ATJ. A week that brought together, or brings together Government, Community and justice sector partners to tackle multifaceted issues such as Indigenous child welfare, digital inclusion, and public legal education.

Sabreena has also spearheaded architects of justice, which is Canada's premier narrative Forum Podcast focused on current topics and access based issues in the justice sector, It is the very first podcast to be accredited by the Law Society of Ontario, and its episodes have been downloaded thousands and thousands of times. Sabreena has also been featured on CBC Radio's The Sunday Edition and on various legal blogs.

She's a fellow at Massey College here at the University of Toronto, which means that technically we are fellow fellows. And she's also a fellow at Simon Fraser University at the Morris J. WASC. Center for Dialogue. She holds an MA in sociology from Dalhousie, and a BA in sociology from the University of Alberta, from whence she hails, I think I'm saying that properly. So tonight's conversation will focus on the health of democracies generally, but particularly here in Canada.

We also want to talk about what everyday citizens like most of us can do to help keep democracy healthy all the time, not just at election time, but all the time. How can we practice good democracy hygiene? And so with that, because I know you're all eager to hear from Sabreena and eager to hear less from me, Sabreena, welcome.

Sabreena

Thank you, John. It's such a privilege to be here. I'm so thrilled to be part of this program.

John

We are thrilled to have you here. We would like to begin if you're okay, by asking me a little bit about your personal journey and your relationship to issues of democracy. So take a step back, the conversation is built as a series about changemakers. When you hear yourself describe that way, does it feel like a good fit?

Sabreena

Ah, yeah, I guess so. Actually, in preparing for this, I did have to think about, you know, why would they be asking me to be part of this program, and that discomfort with the status quo. It really, it fits. I mean, if I think about my career journey, so far, it's been focused on addressing issues of equity and access. And it's been personal for me, because if you're gonna work on social change issues for a living, you have to care about them. And it's a privilege to be able to do that as well.

I also thought about how, for me, like I started in sociology, like, that's really how this all began, for me was having a really critical view about how power works in our society. And I think, even though a lot of people might not use the label change maker, but there's something about that curiosity, and that critical lens that I think is is fitting in this case for me.

John

So let me follow up with that, because I wanted to ask you specifically, because we're going to be talking about democracy for the next hour and building resilient democracies. What draws you to this work specifically? Is it an exploration of power? Who has it how it's used? Is there a personal connection to the issue of democracy? What motivates you to be interested in the topic?

Sabreena

Yeah, so definitely a personal connection. And I think the way I felt that connection has evolved over my lifetime. So I didn't grow up in a political family, I'm the first in my family to have the kind of job that I do, to have the kind of privilege that I do. And when you're the first generation to be able to make a kind of social jump like that, you're really conscious of power, you're conscious of culture. And in order to make that kind of shift, you have to be really adept at understanding how different cultures work, because you have to work extra hard to belong in that kind of space.

So I think my experience in my work of being either the first or among the few to be like me in a certain space, or in a certain professional culture has shaped my lens in terms of change making and trying to be disruptive of the status quo. And it's really a factor I think, of being - feeling conspicuous and invisible at the same time. And that's a duality, that's actually quite accessible to a lot of people in Canada, but it's maybe one that we don't talk about that much or that is maybe under explored, but it's really shaped my lens on things.

And when you're on the outside, you have the sense of power, and the way it functions as being effort. That's like that's just how it is. But one when you're the new person in that kind of space, and you start to see like, oh well this is who gets access and how and why and this is how decisions get made. Everything is brand new to you and it it gives you a really important lens for identifying potential improvements, or just questions around like, Well, why? Why do we do it like that? So that has also been shaped by how I grew up like that first generation professional identity is a really critical one for me. And it wasn't even something I was conscious of actually, until quite recently. So I think that's like a mid career, middle age kind of reflection, maybe.

But it is heartening right now, to see that kind of lens and approach have a lot of credibility in terms of who leaders and change makers are today, I see increasing value for the perspective you can have when you're first generation professional, because it gives you connection and credibility in a wide range of spaces.

I think it has to do with like an evolution and how we're approaching modern leadership. And to note that, you know, in thinking about tonight's conversation, it, it really, it kind of helped me understand like, Oh, this is a really powerful lens to have right now, and I really am only just awakening to that, because I'm at a stage in my life where different identities like professional, being a daughter, being a mother, being a partner.

There's a fluidity there, there's no more boundaries around that or not as many, maybe it's because I've had to do everything on zoom from home with all of those identities all bound together, which has also been stressful, as we all understand. But there's some cohesion now. And that is helping to drive my contribution to this larger ever effort of making our society more just, it's not just the professional thing I do. So that personal and professional boundary, I think is much more permeable now. And that's really helping to drive the way I want to do things.

John

And I think it's fascinating, you talk about being simultaneously conspicuous and invisible, and how that is likely to resonate very strongly with some people, and maybe not resonate that strongly at all for others. But I'm curious to know, if now that you are the executive director of the Samara Center for Democracy, the leading think bank in Canada on on the practice of democracy Do you have to work to maintain those dual perspectives? Or does it start? Do you start to become only conspicuous and unless invisible? How is that? And is it important for you to maintain both perspectives in order to do your work, as well as you want to do it?

Sabreena

You have to, you have to maintain both perspectives. And it's a real shift for me now, because the the privilege is now a little bit higher, right? So it's like, don't forget where you came from. And don't forget about making this relevant to your mom or dad who are going to still good naturally roll their eyes at whatever you're doing, because they don't really get it. So like calm down, you know, there's still that kind of energy going on.

I am conscious of that being conspicuous and invisible aspect in my work, and that consciousness is helping me to use it. So we have seen a shift now in terms of standards of accountability from institutions and from a range of different spaces. So I get invited to speak on a lot of different panels now. And that wasn't always necessarily the case.

Now that has to do because, has to do with the honor of getting to lead an organization like the Samara Center, but there's also increasing pressure now to not have an all-white panel or all white male panel. So I know that there's multiple reasons that my presence is being requested these days. I'm also at this stage in my life, to understand that I have the credibility to back it up, I have the relationships to back it up.

So I have a comfort and I have more of a comfort, I think then some other actors in the space who are maybe still in different learning stages around how they are approaching power and race in our society. So the the use of that conspicuous invisibility duality is hard. One (1), because it takes a lot of processing and understanding and maturing to understand that you know, power isn't only about a meritocracy. That's not how it always works. And you might think it's going to be this way, but it's not and the struggle to find people who can support you and help you translate what's going on because you don't always have that kind of generational knowledge guiding you as you move through your career.

So I'm conscious of that and I'm also aware of how that would affect other younger people as well. So with my increased visibility comes in certain spaces, increased normalization of my leadership. And when the announcement came out about my joining the Samara Centre, I heard from lots of young people on social media that I didn't even know, it meant a lot to them that like this brown lady's running this think tank, you know, and I was like, what? And then I thought about when I was at age, like, of course, like I didn't see anybody who looked like me.

Like, in an essay that I wrote a few years ago, I talked about how I kind of just made a composite character out of Barbara Frum, Cher and Oprah to like, for my professional ambition. I thought Barbara Frum had like, some South Asian element to her for a really long time as a child, she doesn’t... So it made me realize like, Oh, my goodness, like, there's my journey is very different from other journeys, that I'm popping into now, as well and that's really powerful. It makes me understand that I have to act with integrity and be responsible in it for a group that I didn't even realize was paying attention to me.

John

So somewhere, someone is, is thinking about their career composite role model, and you're in it. I want to be like Sabreena Delhon and Oprah and whoever else was an exciting thought. I want to ask one more question about about your personal relationship to these issues, and then delve more into resilient democracy specifically.

But I think it's very fascinating that the, the area in which you really have marked yourself, or head marked yourself as a trailblazer, before arriving at the Samara Centre was in the area of access to justice and I'm wondering if you just talk a little bit about that?

I as a recovering lawyer, I'm particularly impressed by the fact that you're not a lawyer. Yet, you have done so much substantive work to move important needles on on equity and access to justice. Tell us a little bit about why you bring that passion to the area of justice specifically?

Sabreena

So I've worked at law schools, I've worked at the legal regulator and what got me into those spaces was the sociological lens and my interest in social research. And I didn't understand when I had those opportunities, how rare it was, for someone who is a non lawyer, which is a word that they use unselfconsciously to describe someone like me

John

like I just said the same thing. But yes.

Sabreena

I didn't realize how rare that was. And it, it gave me a really useful lens, because I was an insider outsider in that space. So it's that feeling of duality again. And it's such a an intense, professional culture and so it felt like being in those spaces was like doing an ethnography almost for me. And it helped me identify levers potentially for change, like getting your podcast accredited for professionalism hours, like that is an inside baseball thing to know.

John

Yea it is!

Sabreena

But then just do it. And then it's done, It's free. And now people are motivated, because it's free content. And you know, it goes a long way for their regulator. But also like, what shaped my understanding in that space was the notion that, having a legal problem is such a normal and common experience. And most people don't know that.

Most people at some point in their life are going to have a consumer problem, a problem with their landlord, a problem with their employer. And it's totally normal. But there's a weird sense of shame that people have when they've got a legal problem. And it's because of the cost that it would take to solve it or the perceived cost, it's likely going to be very high. But in some instances, you could maybe get some help. And intimidation and confusion play a big factor in that.

So one of the things that I did a couple years ago was a public engagement initiative where we just wanted to ask the public like, what are your top three ideas? What would you want to do if you could make the justice system better? What would you pick just off the top of your head? And We took this to the CNE, so the annual fair.

We had a booth there, it was by designed to be somewhere happy, positive during the day, a bunch of law and paralegal students wearing matching t-shirts really friendly. We were beside the dog show, like, really positive vibes. And everybody we went up to and said, you know, Hi, we're looking for ideas about how to make the justice system better. What do you think? Their response was “nothing, it's fine”, “I haven't done anything wrong”. And “I don't have anything to say”. And so then we had to, you know, give some assurance like this is a confidential thing, we're just looking for ideas, this isn't going to be attributed to you.

And once we gave that sense of assurance, then we got these really candid and rich responses about ways that the justice system had let them down. How it had been really difficult for them to watch someone that they care about flounder in the legal system trying to resolve a legal problem. And then, you know, they they just shared like, such deep and personal details with us about how they didn't trust the system, it didn't feel like they didn't feel like they had a sense of ownership for it. And any sense of improvement was just around making it more respectful. And so that's an anecdotal example. But it was a really illuminating one for me.

And around the same time, I sought to quantify the sentiment, because most of the discourse around making the justice system better is driven by lawyers and judges, and it's from the perspective of lawyers and judges. And there's more happening around user centered experience, but people don't identify as users, especially when they're trying to solve problems that are, you know, in many cases, life and death. And so the study that I directed, measured the trust that Ontarian’s had in their justice system.

So we're looking for a quantification now, this is a more empirically sound approach to the same question. So not what would you do to make it better? But like, where are you at? Like, where's your relationship as with this core, democratic institution. Across age, income, race, gender, the descriptors were “broken”, “intimidating”, not for me. That's really telling, right? That's a really solid baseline that you need to use to measure responses and improvements against.

But there was sort of just like a weird response to that study. Like, some people were pleased to put it on their syllabi for access to justice courses, which was really wonderful. And there was a lot of uptake in certain spaces. But there were key people influencers, powerful people who were very dismissive, like, what does the public know?

And so for me, like, I understood through that kind of work, that there's a lack of respect and dignity and connection there, that's relationship that needs some repair and attention. And another, like just research tidbit here is that when someone does try to solve their legal problem, they're they're much more satisfied with the outcome if their expectations are managed at the outset. So if they're just told, listen, this is what's gonna happen.

These are the steps this might happen, that might happen, you might not get what you want. But just having that understanding, having someone speak to you in a respectful way, just walk you through it. It leads to a higher sense of satisfaction with the legal system, even if you didn't get what you wanted.

And so when we think about going to the polls, or being civically engaged, like you mentioned in the introduction, like how do you keep democracy healthy between elections? It's really something that we need to shore up because people feel kind of used as voters right now. Right? Like, Oh, you want my vote, and then we're done? Okay, fine, right? It's not a healthy relationship.

So the connection between justice and democracy, for me are those parallels around respect for the public, trust from the public, managing that relationship in a really healthy and an engaging way, like it's okay to be normal in how you communicate. It's okay to use plain language and it's really important to address that intimidation and confusion factor.

John

So, Sabreena, that list of descriptors, would they define or at least defined in part a resilient democracy? What are the hallmarks of resilient democracies? For you?

Sabreena

Yeah! So I think like what we're describing here is struggle. And that's a key word used by a professor I admire named Harry Hahn, who's at Johns Hopkins University. She's a political scientist. And she describes how in our democracies, struggle is important is a source of dynamism.

It's normal and healthy for things to be difficult, because this is, you know, important. And, you know, we've seen with the pandemic conversations about economic and racial justice, accelerate, and they've generated demands from our democratic institutions that have had been a long time coming. But now here they are. So the struggle is definitely a key element of a democracy, of a healthy one. And if we look at data, we work with a consortium on electoral democracy.

And they've collected data that shows that most Canadians are perfectly satisfied with their democracy, but they have very little trust of elected officials. And so there's that trust element. Again, the Justice study showed really low trust in the justice system. And the struggle and the trust relate to another element of you know, what should be a hallmark in our democracy, which is participation.

And we need to approach that as something beyond just voting. And I think that entails normalizing and validating a wide range of, you know, actions and units of civic engagement, like community organizing various forms of advocacy, just gauging how people feel when they think or talk about politics, like, broadly, do we have a culture where people feel equipped to hold power to account? So I think we're in a in a major period of transformation right now, to kind of put it mildly in terms of what we're experiencing.

John

I was gonna say, I mean, Samara is not the only think tank to flag the fact that democracy is going through a difficult phase – Shifting it that way, I think you actually called it a period of democratic backsliding, which is really.... what do you mean by that? Democratic backsliding?

Sabreena

Yeah, democratic, backsliding, democratic recession, those are technical terms used in the academic world to describe this erosion of our democratic culture. So that can entail the proliferation of misinformation, it can relate to polarization. And it can also involve the alienation of the electorate, as we're talking about now.

John

So I mean, I'm thinking about those people at the CNE that you're approaching in those matching T shirts, that were reluctant to even express an opinion about the justice system. I wonder if if it hadn't been the justice system that you were asking about if it had been that political system? Or the or democracy that that slightly, that slightly more vague term, when people have felt more comfortable expressing an opinion was, specifically because it was justice it feels more rarefied people didn't, it didn't want to didn't want to formulate ideas? or do you think that there's a general hesitation among Canadians to express opinion about any of our democratic institutions? What do you think?

Sabreena

Yeah, I think that the Justice factor is significant, because there's so much pop culture messaging around court, in jail and guilty. And I think that is inadvertently affecting the way people approach the justice system in Canada. And this was something that we did, you know, over five years ago, so this was before the mainstream understanding of the legacy of colonialism within our justice system was, you know, made more clear and apparent to people.

So there is some there is some specific intimidation around the justice system as an institution has its core democratic institution because it's just inherent to the culture. But it does relate and it does reverberate out to our democracy. I think if we were to ask What are the top three things we should do to make Canada's democracy better? I think they would feel stupid, they would feel put on the spot. And they would feel like they're being shamed.

And that is a recurring feeling that people have right now, because they aren't sufficiently in our society, equipped for those kinds of conversations, there is a lot of shaming and kind of status oriented approaches to how we talk about democracy in this country. So that, that disconnection and detached reaction, I think is is really important for us to continue to probe and explore and understand better.

John

So I was gonna ask you, what are some of the indicators that you're looking at professionally, that tell you that democracy is being challenged in Canada or is under duress in Canada? Is it the fact that people are intimidated by conversations that people are not sufficiently equipped to have meaningful conversations about about civic matters? Is that is that our challenge? Is that the indication that democracy is, is is having a difficult patch here in Canada?

Sabreena

Yeah, I think that's part of it. But the pandemic is doing interesting things with that feeling. So, you know, we're at a critical juncture right now to define the next chapter for our democracy, because we've been viewing everything with this COVID-19 lens for a couple of years now. And what comes to mind for me, in response to your question, is public schools!

Public schools exist to produce an engaged citizenry. And right now with the pandemic, we've seen deepening and accelerating inequities in terms of education outcomes, because of the school closures, and you know, that's going to be challenging for any child, but it's really going to take a toll on kids who are from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.

Children who are racialized or from indigenous communities, newcomers, children with disabilities, children who are gender diverse, neuro-diverse, like their learning loss, is our civic loss. And I think we are not really paying attention adequately to the generational impact that can have on us. Most of us who are joining this conversation today have had school, you know, elementary, middle high school be a constant in our lives, we could take it for granted. Of course, it was going to be there. And that consistency, and the community and all the other social and civic benefits that come from just going to school has been absent for for two years.

So my daughter is eight years old, that's a quarter of her life. And these are these are really critical years for defining your norms, your values, and just your expectations of society. Because it's not just that schools have had to say to kids, like, I'm just not going to be around right now. Sorry. And like, all of my respect to teachers who have navigated this, this terrible time, but parents have been tasked with managing this message. And that has been so challenging to convey to your child school is really important.

Your education is really important, and so is your community. But it's not there right now. But it might be back but I don't know. And that is sowing seeds of doubt and potential disconnection and exacerbating inequities, which is really troubling.

John

This really troubling and, and I'm wondering if, if most people are connecting the dots or even seeing the dots between the inequities that are being revealed and exacerbated. And the challenges to having a strong healthy democracy I mean, that right now, I think parents and anyone that cares about children right now are just worried about just worried about things like, you know, my child's mental health, their their physical well being, do they have friends? Do they know how to talk to other people?

All of which, of course, are are fundamental to our lives as as atomistic human beings, but there's also that longer term societal impact on on civics on the ability to have healthy democracy, not just today, but in 20 years and 30 years when it's your daughter's generation that are running the country. So I wonder, you know, whose job is it to draw those dots and connect those dots for people to think about those longer term implications?

Sabreena

Yeah, I mean, I think we're, we're seeing something critical happening in terms of our identities as citizens and and then also consumers. And for a lot of kids online, when they had to move to learning online, that citizen identity, I think, just kind of is getting a bit jostled, right, they are now learning through Google Classroom. And, you know, they, they have to have a device and they have to have like, there's all these like consumer elements, because you're using the same device to do other things like play and watch shows, but then you're also learning but using that same thing to learn, and there's just adults have been doing that for a really long time.

But there's something really significant about that happening with kids right now. And so who is responsible for producing an engaged citizenry, like we all are, so that's quite a common, shared the Democratic agenda. And I think, you know, everyone is in survival mode right now. And I am optimistic that when things relent, when the pandemic can Abate, we can build this Civic loss into our recovery plan and have that drive a revitalized Democratic agenda for us.

John

So I'm pleased to hear that you're optimistic, because there does seem to be some reason for optimism. And maybe a little bit of schadenfreude, for mixing with it. And what I'm thinking about is, because how can you not think about living this close to the world's greatest superpower? How are we define that?

And I, it's interesting that that polling, for example, recent polling, you and I talked briefly about this from the Environics Institute, our friends of Environics Institute, points to some positive trends of Canada, relative relative to the United States. And specifically, they've noted that Canadians are generally quite satisfied with the state of our democracy. And the trend is actually towards increasing levels of trust.

You mentioned trust earlier in key institutions. And unlike our neighbors, south of the border, we've become less divided on questions of democracy with Canadian political parties, drawing most of their support from the center of the political spectrum, rather than from the extreme ends of that spectrum, which appears to be the case more and more in the state. So I'm curious to know if that is optimistic, in your opinion, and what do you make those of that contrast? How do you account for it?

Sabreena

Yeah, I think it's important that we take pride in what we have at home, and that we value it and that we talk about it and that it is a part of our discourse, to be thinking about our own democracy and how we're taking care of it.

I think in Canada, we often take comfort in making really selective comparisons about worse instances of racism, voter suppression, violence in the in the United States. And that also leads us to being distracted because we're just focused on like, What's going on over there? What's happened now? oh, my gosh, like this is this is like the latest. And then we forget to work on what's happening in our own house.

So I think we need to see the democratic recession that's happening in the US or democratic backsliding as a cautionary tale and take heart, like take that really seriously, and get ourselves together to respond in a cohesive way. And that is something that considers everything from what our public schools in our society to how are we handling toxicity online.

And I think that relates to this, this general state of awakening and reflection that's happening in Canada right now, as we reconcile colonial history with exacerbated inequality during the course of the pandemic, and kind of are sitting with this understanding about the way we talk about power in Canada and a kind of nefarious politeness with which we, we've you used and approached our common Democratic agenda. And we kind of need to push through that if we're really going To be relevant and just advance as a democracy as well. And I think we have to obviously manage our relationship with the United States. And maybe one underutilized way to do that is to draw on the tremendous social capital we have there in our Canadian diaspora.

John

I just want to say if I were starting a garage band, right now, their name, the band's name would be Nefarious Polite, I just think that is just perfect. So to continue talking about the relative healthiness of our democracy, you're right, and touched on the toxicity here in Canada, you know, we're, we're looking at the log in someone else's eye, or, you know, what's expression where we have specs, with chips in her own eye anyway, our hands are not clean. That's what I'm trying to say. We had a fairly contentious federal election here in Canada just a few months ago.

And I know that at Semara, as part of your efforts to understand the online toxicity, as well as the in-person toxicity that that partly defined that campaign? You've been tracking political commentary, or you've tracked political commentary on Twitter that was directed towards hundreds of the political candidates? I'd like to hear more about that. And and what have you learned by analyzing that, that Twitter traffic?

Sabreena

So we talk a lot a lot about the need to have more diverse leaders in Canada and in the political arena. If you were to ask someone like you're an amazing leader, you know, fill this critical gap, you've got this amazing contribution to make, what do you say? I think if you ask someone who looked like me, they would say no way, because I don't want to deal with any of the online hate. And I don't want to subject my family to it either.

So online toxicity is a barrier to civic engagement it's a key reason why people leave politics, or they don't enter it, or they just steer clear of the political conversation altogether. So we wanted to get into that deeper. And elections are often a period of high toxicity online. So we used the recent federal election as an opportunity to collect some data and also increase public awareness about this problem about the toxicity in the online political conversation.

So one way that, well, the way we did this, and it was a bit novel, because civil society organizations don't always do this. We partnered with a startup tech company called Reto labs based in Edmonton, my hometown. Just a coincidence. total coincidence. Yeah. And we used their machine learning bot, to track tweets received by incumbent candidates and party leaders in the weeks leading up to the election. So we were looking at just a very small slice of the Canadian political conversation online, just one platform.

We were monitoring tweets received by 300 accounts. And we did it for five weeks. And we analyzed over 2 million tweets. We were able to break down the toxicity with the bot that we had. So our findings confirmed what many in the political world and in other professions, as well, like journalism, understand about the intensity of the toxicity online. So about 20% of what we tracked, qualified as being threatening profane had an identity attack, or was sexually explicit or insulting. We shared reports.

Every week, during the campaign period, the last week of the campaign, we captured about half a million tweets. And we found that 4% of those tweets had sexually explicit content. And that number sounds really small, 4% whatever. But it's, it translates to 20,000 tweets, and that's not going to be coming evenly across those 300 accounts. It's coming in one week, it’s just a handful of accounts.

And we also found, and this is probably not a surprise for anyone in the audience, that women get more toxic tweets than men and that toxicities generally misogynistic and personal. So, you know, this data is about measuring the obvious because everybody knows this is happening, but we put some really narrow boundaries around it just so that people could get a sense of like the day in the life what's it like to be on the digital campaign trail, what's coming at a candidate and their staffers? And, you know, what do you do when you're navigating this torrent of vitriol. And, you know, your party is maybe required you to be on a social media platform as part of your campaign. And it's just a matter of fact, like, you have to use social media tools, like that's a key way that you're going to get engagement and get your message in front of people.

So, you know, this is about really illustrating with numbers, what people are asking when they say, well, can't you be more resilient, like, who is going to be able to handle this as a part of the job, like, who is going to be able to tolerate and withstand nonstop digital abuse as their conditions of work. And another element in our finding was that the more well-known you are, the more likely you are to get toxicity online. So Justin Trudeau got the most toxicity.

But if you're from an underrepresented community, and you decide to become a politician, and you get some measure of success, the reality is, the better you do, the worse it's going to get. And that really needs to be addressed because it is really hindering representation and participation in our democracy. There's the fact that people are receiving this content. But there's also the fact that people can just see this content. It's part of our digital public square, and it has a real silencing effect on people that turns them away. They don't want to have anything to do with this ugliness. And if that's what's happening to our electorate, is very damaging to our democracy.

John

Sorry, go ahead. Yeah.

Sabreena

it sends a signal to other sectors and to broader society about whose voices heard, who's a leader who gets to take up space. And it's kind of insidious and kind of difficult to grasp what this impact truly is, in terms of lived experience. And so that was our intention with our bot, Sam. And

John

do we know I mean, one can assume I think, probably safely but do we? Do we know for a fact that candidates are people that might have run unsuccessfully, this time, will not run again, the next time?

I mean, do we do exit interviews to find out if this kind of toxicity actually dissuades people from pursuing their political ambitions participating that active way in democracy? I mean, I assume that it that it would be hard to face that, again, if you've already lived through a once. But do we know that empirically?

Sabreena

Well, with this iteration of the project, we just looked at incumbent candidates and, and party leaders. So we kind of, you know, just worked with that slice, and we see it as a pilot. So we're looking forward to expanding on this later in the year, where we'll be doing a new iteration of our exit interviews, Project, which is a signature Samara Center initiative. So it's really top of mind for us the retention factor here.

John

We have a question from one of our audience members. And I think it's a really good one, this harkens back to, to the start of our conversation, you talked about your double perspective, being outside being inside being seen being invisible simultaneously.

The question is, do you feel that those of us who are situated within marginalized communities constantly struggle with the visible due to our differences or because of our differences, yet? Invisibility with respect to getting our needs and our needs met? So the person says, I'm thinking of myself how it sometimes becomes a Pick Your Battles scenario, should I be visible? Because of my difference? Should I be invisible with respect to having my needs met? How do you manage that struggle? How do you pick your battles? Any thoughts on that as we connect that specifically to engagement in democracy?

Sabreena

Yeah, so I think that gets at like the performative element that we all play in society and at work and who we are and how we want to present, and I am, you know, for lack of a better way of describing it a recovering model minority. I felt like I had to be really nice. Don't take up too much space. Like I've got this agenda and we like want to change the status quo, but then also just like Um, you know one step at a time, right?

And I think what this person's question is about that internal reckoning of, you know, who are you? How do you want to present? How are others perceiving you, and then like just trying to manage their expectations and the emotional labor of that, which is so exhausting?

If you can, I would encourage you to find lots of different tools and supports that liberate you from that, and just, you know, approach it like a really privileged white guy. Is he thinking like that every day? No, he's not. He's just thinking about what he wants. And then he can just, you know, live his life and will encounter challenges and barriers as well.

But just try to like, get that burden off of you. Because that is a part of the colonial history of like, you are not the default image of this. So you must manage yourself accordingly, you must manage how you speak, and how you look and what you say and what you want. And it doesn't really feel like that for someone day to day, you know, if you're younger, you're just trying to figure out who you are.

But it's important, I think, to really probe that further and understand like, where’s that coming from? Like, what's the kind of potential generational messaging around that, or what's everyone else doing in this space, and there's a lot of reading you can do around critical race theory, there's also therapy, there's also just kind of being kind to yourself, and understanding that that's a burden that doesn't have to be yours. And if there are ways that you can get that lifted off of you, then you'll have so much more time and energy for the things that you truly want to be contributing to.

John

Another question from one of our other guests tonight has to do with the difference, if there is a difference between local democracies versus the federal government. So are local democracies. And you can probably extend it to provincial democracies, are they more or less resilient than more senior levels of government? So is there kind of a we're most democratic locally, and then slightly less democratic provincially? And we're the least democratic federally, is that too simplistic? How do you see the different challenges or the different challenges to resilience? And each level of government?

Sabreena

Yeah, that's such an interesting question like that would be a good one for us to take back and think about and see if our academic collaborators have some data to help us understand what are those units of civic engagement? And how do they carry across those different spaces.

What comes to mind for me is how the pandemic has changed expectations for each of those levels, as we have become more tuned in and engaged about how the pandemic is being managed. So I think the mainstream understanding of this is a federal decision, schools are a provincial thing. This is a vaccine procurement happens federally, and then what's happening in my city around, you know, or town in terms of, you know, restrictions and things like that.

So I think our literacy around how what we can expect and hold power to account in those different spaces has evolved. And I wonder if that will be retained as we as we come out of the pandemic, as well. But that's a really interesting question. So

John

there's an interesting question. I don't know, if you would agree, but you've referred to the engagement, the different kinds of engagement in the pandemic of the different levels of government. One thing that I think that Pandemic has done is kind of to reveal for all to see that Canadian federalism it's messy. It's a patchwork. And, you know, I think we can be much better. And maybe we'll come out of this by I don't know that there'll be any kind of motivation for grand constitutional revisit.

But we have seen that in certain areas of public health that different public policy approaches across the country have brought about very different results and outcomes for Canadians. And I think we need to think about whether that's what we want as a country. Do we are we content with there being different outcomes across the country because different provincial jurisdictions or even local public health units are taking different approaches to this very fundamental issue of encouraging public health in order to save lives?

I think it's in I don't think that people are necessarily consciously thinking about federalism, when they're trying to make sense of the competing press releases are really that's kind of almost by osmosis. I think that's something that's happening for people that maybe have never thought about what different levels of government can do.

Sabreena

Yeah, because it's never, you've never really had to think about it. It hasn't necessarily affected your day to day for a majority of people in the country. And people are paying more attention now to other countries like, well, how come New Zealand could do this thing that, you know,

John

there's a question about the current debate, maybe it's no longer current, maybe it's not resolved as of yesterday, but the debate over the filibuster in the US Senate and the issue have been raised, obviously. As to whether or not the Democratic Party, the Democratic caucus and Senate should support the eradication of the filibuster specifically for the purpose of passing the voting rights legislation.

Of course, famously, Senator Christ cinema. And Senator Joe Manchin made that an impossibility. But the question I think, is really interesting, because it compares that whole the vote, the voting rights, tobacco, as it's connected to the filibuster in the States is kind of a central or Central. They call it a centerpiece issue, as an obstruction to democracy in the United States. Are there any obstacles in Canadian democracy? Systemic obstacles?

I'm presuming that should be addressed in a similar way. It's maybe something that we've taken for granted. It's always been done that way. But is there an institution or institutional practice, I don't know, maybe it's the monarchy, maybe it's the appointed Senate, I have no idea. But it's very such an obstruction that maybe is so present in our lives, we don't even see it. But it really needs to be addressed in order to kind of unleash the full potential of democracy in Canada. What do you think?

Sabreena

Um, well, I'm going to go back to hurry Han for this one, because she talks about how, like, who were the leaders we need right now. And I think in this moment of transformation, we're like, we're having this awakening, we've got this reckoning. And there's a sense, like, maybe there's more, that could be better, and we just can't quite put our finger on it.

As you're explaining, I think there is an emerging new wave of leaders right now. And that's something we should be paying attention to. And for Harin Han, she describes, she describes this, this new wave as being adept at navigating all of the shifting terrain that we've explored today. So they can handle the institutional demands, but they're also very connected with their constituents, they have credibility in both spaces, so not talking down to the constituents, not that politicians are doing that.

But they're balancing it, it's not as if they're, you know, feeling this push pull. So maybe one thing that we need to be attuned to right now, and that could be filled with potential solutions, and maybe bring forth a new golden age for Canada's democracy is a new wave of leaders that can balance all the things that we're talking about, that have the credibility and all these different spaces and the training for it, too.

You know, when we started this conversation, I talked about how, you know, I'm, I'm this recovering, model minority, and now my leadership of you know, having been a first-generation professional is more valued than ever, and it's my strength. So maybe that's something that we need to be paying attention to. And when you're in a position where you feel like I don't know what I don't know, it's usually a matter of getting different problem solvers into the mix. And maybe that's what we should be paying attention to.

John

So speaking of the next generation of leaders, let's imagine the next generation of leaders is in grade three, like your daughter, you talked about the need for better civics education for Canadians so that we grow up and we don't shy away from questions at the end or, or at the election booth for stories and media that were actually engaged in those conversations actively and enthusiastically.

So is there currently a good practice of best practice in terms of civics curriculum that you've seen in Canada? Are there any specific projects that you can point to? That should give us some, some sense of optimism in terms of the future of civics curriculum in Canada and? And who can? Who can benefit from it?

Sabreena

Yeah, well, I'll mention the work of civics. They're a fantastic organization, they organized parallel election programs at schools across the country. And they have excellent and very respectful relationships with teachers. I'm a big fan of their Ctrl F initiative, which teaches media, digital media literacy skills to students and teachers.

A key civic skill that we need to equip that generation with is the digital media literacy. And so it would be wonderful to see an expansion of that. But we need to see a culture that is ready to equip this next generation with the Civic skills and understandings that we need. It's you can't just put that on one nonprofit organization, I say, as the executive director of one.

John

Sabreena?

Sabreena

Yeah you are fine. Yeah, I'll just default to model minority mode, and I'm not going to complain. So but it would be wonderful for there to be this kind of civic onboarding process normalized in our society where you learn this at this age, you learn that at that age, and then you feel equipped to conduct yourself accordingly to hold power to account.

You don't feel intimidated or shamed by not knowing this, or that how many MPs are in Parliament, that sort of thing. That would be really, really crucial. And maybe that's something we can get to as part of our pandemic recovery is to have this commitment to a resilient Democratic agenda. And it's one that takes a generational perspective.

John

He talks a little bit about just now about digital media literacy. Thinking about media more broadly, we have a question about the state of journalism, and how it intersects with the state of our democracy. What do you think is the role of professional journalism in rehabilitating our democracy?

Sabreena

Yeah, journalism is critical to the health and functioning of our democracy, they have a critical role to play, especially in this era of, you know, misinformation. When we were talking about the sanbot project or action, we got a lot of media coverage, and the, you know, post interview conversation with a producer reporter, with them saying thank you for doing this kind of work, because it helps validate our experiences.

Because, you know, we all know this happens, but no one really talks about it or quantifies it or makes it real in this way. So thank you for doing that. And so we need to understand what journalists’ conditions of work are. And we've seen instances of abuse online, where journalists have had their personal information shared publicly and have had to deal with abuse and violence. And that's not acceptable. And I think increasing our support and value for journalists as a commitment to healthy democratic culture is, is wise and important.

John

Yeah, it's healthy. I think it's a good sign that the co-winners of the Nobel Peace Prize last year were both journalists. It's a positive sign, but it's a drop in the bucket of what needs to happen in terms of protecting the lives and the rights of journalists. So we're winding down our conversation, Sabreena, and as you know, and as those of you have joined us for previous Changemakers conversations, we'd like to do a quick speed round of questions with our special guest. And you're open for that, Sabreena, I mean, you don't have to rush, but the spirit there is short answer as opposed to essay.

Sabreena

Sure.

John

Okay. So first of all, when we talk about changemakers, we use the term leaders by example, I said that when I was introducing you, what traits do you think make effective leaders?

Sabreena

I think it's important for effective leaders to consult and be decisive and to own their mistakes.

John

Is there an example of a leader that you admire who has been influential in your life, someone that you perhaps maybe even model your own leadership after?

Sabreena

Yes, who comes to mind is Mrs. Newbold, my grade eight social studies teacher she didn’t, this was not in it was not in the curriculum to understand the harms that have occurred against indigenous communities in Canada. She educated us about residential schools when she didn't need to. And they're not schools. We understand that today.

But she took the time to do that, and just have her own accord. And she increased, she introduced me to Amnesty International, she helped me understand human rights. And that sense of like equity and justice was really sparked for me in her classroom. And she spoke to everybody, like in a kind of aloof way. Like we were all adults. And I'd like to kind of she had that attitude about her, it was really engaging.

John

What do you think she would say about you about what you do for a living today?

Sabreena

Well, I hope she'd be proud. You know,

John

I'm positive she would be proud. I don't even know where, but I feel I know where you mean.

Sabreena

Yeah, yeah.

John

So leaders like Mrs. Newbold, you don't always succeed. Many, many leaders talk about the importance of failure in their life, to help them figure out who they are to help them hold their priorities, clarify which strategies and tactics to use. We're wondering if you would be willing to share a failure, or a setback from your own life that taught you something meaningful and valuable?

Sabreena

Yeah, I'm glad you're asking that question. Because it's important to normalize that life isn't just this linear path of things that happened exactly as you planned. So for me, I left my Ph. D. program in my second year. And this was perceived as a failure by my peers. But it was a very liberating decision for me. And I pursued that path because people encouraged me to do it. And then I felt like I would be letting them down if I did it.

And I kind of knew the whole time that that wasn't the right place for me. But I felt like, you know, this is an important to, and, you know, elite space, if I've given if I've been given access to it, you know, I really should go ahead. And this gets out a feeling that I think a lot of people have in their 20s, which is just not being true to yourself, and the social conditioning, back to that model minority thing, again, of, you know, keeping people around me comfortable, avoiding conflict, and then subsequently ending up detached from my own voice and what I actually want it because that those two elements of who I am, at that time really just weren't reconciled yet.

So I would share that if a relationship isn't working for you, if a decision isn't working for you just dig into that early. And if it's not getting better, or if you're not being met halfway, just move on. But try to do so with integrity, because you might go back, you might reconnect, and to just be open to that and to not fixate on quitting as bad, you have to make the best decisions you can with the information and understanding you have in the moment, even when it's about yourself.

John

So my last question, and you might have just answered it, unknowingly. But my last question is, if you could go back and talk to your 18-year-old self about how to be a change maker, what advice would you give yourself? Um,

Sabreena

I would say just focus on doing things and building relationships that don't worry about being a leader or a changemaker. Just get some experience and get to know some people learn, learn some things, and take your time, you have lots of time, so don't worry about the time variable.

And I would also say ask your elders for advice. Like any elder like professors, people you work with. You don't have to always listen to what they tell you to do. And you don't only have to get advice from someone who looks like you or grew up like you. And this will help you understand that your allies along the way might surprise you. It might surprise you who your allies are.

John

Sabreena, thank you so much for joining us tonight. This time has flown by, at least for me, and I hope for you and for our other guests in this conversation. I want to remind everybody that our special guest tonight has been Sabreena Delhon, and I want to thank Sabreena and the great team that works with her at Samara especially Abra Rissi.

We are so grateful to you for sharing your insights, your experiences, your honesty in discussing these very pressing issues around democracy, which obviously affect all of us whether we know it or not it or not. I want to say that this Changemakers conversation was produced and supported by a team of wonderful colleagues at Hart House. Jenifer Newcombe, Lena Yusim, Michele Che, Amy Wang, Christine Lieber, Megan Mueller, and Janine Raftopoulos. Thanks to all of them.

And for those of us who have joined us in the audience, thank you so much for finding us. Thank you for connecting. Thank you for staying connected. I hope that you'll join us for the next installment of Changemakers in 2022. On March 9, I'll be speaking with human rights lawyer Lorin McDonald, the founder and CEO of HearVue.

Last year, Lorin was named one of the top 25 Most Influential lawyers in Canada, one of Canada's most powerful women. That was a top 100, but if you've ever had the opportunity to listen to Lorin speak and share her story. She is you know the very top. She's a remarkable speaker and a true Changemaker. So join us on March 9. Thank you again for coming tonight. We hope that tonight has inspired you to be the change that you want to be. Good night.

John

Thank you so much to Sabreena Delhon, for joining me in conversation.

To learn more about Sabreena and her work. You can follow her on Twitter at Sabreena Delhon D E L H O N follow the Samara Center for Democracy on twitter or Instagram at Samara CDA and on Facebook at Samara Canada. This Changemakers conversation was produced and supported by the team at Hart House. That's Jennifer Newcomb, Lena Yusim, Michelle Che, Amy Wang, Christine Liber, Megan Mueller, and Janine Raftopoulos. The podcast was edited by Janine Al Hadidi. Original Music by Recap, they can be found on SoundCloud.

To learn more about Changemakers please visit Harthouse.ca or follow us on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, or Facebook. Our handle is @HartHouse U of T and I'm John Monahan.

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Hart House Changemakers: Confronting Information Poverty A Rights-Based Approach to Communication, with Lorenzo Vargas

John Monahan

Hello. My name is John Monahan and I'm the warden of Hart House, and your host for the Changemakers Series. Today, I'm thrilled to bring you a conversation with Lorenzo Vargas. Let's begin.

John Monahan 01:56

Most of us wish we lived in a more just and equitable world. And many have given careful thought to what constructive change might look like. But those who both think about, and then actively devote their lives and careers to effecting meaningful and sustainable change in the interests of justice and equity are relatively few and far between. They don't do it for fame or fortune. They do it because they see a need for change, and they respond to it. They are Changemakers, and that's what we've called our series. Changemakers is a series of fireside style chats with some of these rare birds, inspiring folks whose discontent with the status quo propels them to be the change that they want to see in the world.

Now, before we begin this evening's conversation with our special guest, I do want to take a moment to acknowledge that we are gathered here for this conversation on land that is the traditional territory of the Huron Wendat and the Seneca, and both the traditional and treaty territory of the Mississaugas of the Credit. This land is still the home to many Indigenous people from all across Turtle Island, and we are grateful to live, work, gather and create community together on this land. In addition, inspired by the example in the words of a colleague here at the University of Toronto, Professor Jill Carter, I'm also mindful that Zoom, the technology that brings us together this evening, has directed its corporate headquarters in San Jose, California. As Professor Carter has reminded us, that is the traditional territory of the Muwekma Ohlone Tribal Nation. And we who are able to connect with each other via Zoom are deeply indebted to the Muwekma Ohlone people as the lands and waters that they continue to steward now support the people, pipelines and technologies that carry our breaths, images and words across vast distances to others. And we are grateful.

The title of tonight's topic is Information Poverty or Rights-Based Approach to Communication, and I am thrilled to welcome Lorenzo Vargas to Changemakers. Tonight's conversation will explore issues amount- around democratizing access to media resources, and other sources of information as fundamental to creating societies where citizen engagement, economic prosperity, and systems of justice can thrive simultaneously, particularly in the global south. Lorenzo will be sharing his insights tonight from his work to ensure that those from marginalized and poor and excluded communities around the world have access to the technologies, and the means to make informed decisions about their own lives and communities. We'll also be touching on the global media landscape and how it can either support or hinder the attainment of those goals. First, let me tell you a little bit more about Lorenzo Vargas. He is a Communication for Development Specialist and a researcher on Citizens’ Media. A Colombian Canadian, he directs the Global Communication for Social Change Program for WACC, the World Association for Christian Communications, which supports grassroots sustainable development initiatives in several countries of the global south. WACC is a global NGO that builds on communications rights to promote social justice. Prior to his time at the WACC, Lorenzo worked with Mosaic Institute, an organization that I know something about as well. And there Lorenzo coordinated a series of campus based dialogues all across Canada that were focused on transnational conflict and diaspora led peacebuilding efforts. He holds degrees in International Development and Communication from York University and McGill University, and is currently pursuing his PhD in Communication and Culture at X University, which some of you may remember is Ryerson University. And there, Lorenzo is affiliated with the Global Communication Governance Lab. Lorenzo has written a number of publications, including Citizens Media as a Tool for the Local Construction of Peace in Columbia, Indigenous Community Media Aid Reconciliation in Canada, and his most recent publication, entitled, Expanding Shrinking Communication Spaces, which he edited with Phillip Lee.

Lorenzo Vargas 6:06

Hi.

John Monahan 6:32

Lorenzo, let's start at the beginning, with the title of tonight's event, Information Poverty. Can you explain what that term means to you, and why do you think it's something that we should all pay attention to?

Lorenzo Vargas 07:47

Thank you. Well, first of all, I'd like to thank you and thank Hart House for the invitation, as well as to also echo your, your Land Acknowledgement. I think that's something that's really important as we in Canada move towards meaningful reconciliation. Now, your question around what communication information poverty is, to me, it's all about power. It's about in society who has the power to shape public agendas, who has the power to determine what issues are paid attention to, what issues are ignored, whose voices are heard, whose voices are not heard. And for real people in the real world, you know, if you ask many poor people, there's many studies have, who have looked at, that have looked at this- the manifestation of poverty is often yeah, you don't have enough money or you don't have proper housing or you don't have proper employment. But a lot of it actually is about having no voice, having a sense of not being heard, of feeling voiceless, or feeling powerless, or feeling like you have no space or avenue to share your concerns, like your voice doesn't count, as well as feeling like you don't have access to information about what's happening in the world. You know, its a complex world out there, you're trying to get by, but you can't access media, you don't, you're not represented in the media. There's, you know, the things that they're talking about on the news are not really what, you know, matter to you, where you live in your everyday life. So to me, that's, that's an essential element of human dignity- feeling heard, feeling seen. And if I look at an example, because I always like thinking about examples, I think of the, Mexico for example, which is a country in which the organization that I worked for, WACC, is heavily involved. And it's a country where there's, you know, high rate of media concentration, there's a few media houses, most of which are owned by a few wealthy families, many of which are connected to the political class and to business interests.

John Monahan

Right.

Lorenzo Vargas

So there's really not that much space for grassroots communities to express their views to be seen, to be heard. And those groups that are in power use media to shape public agendas, to shape public debate. And also you don't have spaces for Indigenous languages, for example, to be you know, everything’s in Spanish. So if you're an Indigenous person, let's say in the State of Chiapas, Mexico, your voice is not heard. Of course, there's a lot of issues around sexism in Mexico and, and the violence against women, as well as violence against journalists. So all of these issues combined, lead to a context in which, for the everyday person that's experiencing marginalization or social justice issues in Mexico, it's really hard for them to have their voice heard.

John Monahan 10:23

So it goes way beyond just representation. It goes way beyond just seeing people in the media, whether social or mass media that look like you, or come from your background, it goes to the actual means of creating messages, emitting messages. An actual infrastructure issue as opposed to a representative-representation issue. Is that, is that right?

Lorenzo Vargas 10:50

Precisely. Yeah. If the way I think about it is, I think about the communication information system as a public good. And much in the, in the way we think about natural resources or, you know, things that are considered public commons, that we will have to protect, but that actually, because of the way the world works, is driven by profit, and is driven by power. But really, if you think about telecommunications infrastructure, electromagnetic infrastructure, which is what allows us to communicate, to share, to send radio waves, that's actually a public good, much like water. So it's about who really controls the means of communication, the means to create meaning to create knowledge and, and to ultimately shape public agendas, which of course, has a clear impact on policy making.

John Monahan 11:41

And having heard you say that, I'm better understanding the subtitle of tonight's topic, which is one that you chose, which is a rights-based approach to communication. So I infer that what you're saying is that having access to these means of communication and media, that's not a privilege.

Lorenzo Vargas 12:04

Precisely, yeah. So when we look at the, the rights based approach to communication, of course, we have to start with Article 19, of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, which is, of course, the right that speaks about freedom of expression and access to information. And of course, that is the starting point. But then there's other issues like media representation, right. Like is, for example, your particular community, or your gender community represented fairly in a balanced way on the media, in the media. Do you have access to, you know, is the media transparent and pluralistic, you know, is it governed in a way that that you can actually engage with. Is it democratically controlled, is it all controlled by the state or the army. Like, there’s countries for example like Egypt, where a lot of the media is actually controlled by the army, which is really the state. So the starting point, of course, is freedom of expression. But what we're really saying is that there's a number of other rights that we have to look at, in order to enable that freedom of expression to be meaningful, otherwise, you end up having people who are really powerful, and whose right to freedom of expression is, ends up being way louder, so to speak, than the right to freedom of expression of a poor, marginalized Indigenous person, for example, who has no platforms. So it really is about power.

John Monahan 13:18

So in the midst of, of that nest of issues, what does most of your work look like? What is the actual work that you do in, in Mexico or in Jordan or Burkina Faso? What does that work look like? What do you actually contribute to this issue area?

Lorenzo Vargas 13:42

Yeah, I mean, I think for me, the starting point is to understand that there's people out there who are already doing a lot of work in, the in the area of media and communication, and democratization of, of the systems. So my role in particular at WACC entails providing technical support, and helping to mobilize financial support, so that these initiatives can actually take place in the global south. And of course, these are issues that are connected to democracy, participation, and therefore, are sometimes highly sensitive in those particular countries. So also for example, there's situations where activists are being targeted and attacked and so on, so it's also sort of providing that overall support to many of these organizations trying to build networks of solidarity among them. And we do work in different, under different themes. So for example, we have a whole program on migration and communication rights, which is all about how migrants.

Lorenzo Vargas 14:57

Experiences and so on. We are also now doing work on climate change and communication, as well as, in well, select digital rights, digital justice, you know, the democratization of data, which, of course, is what drives the systems nowadays. As well as, we have a program on Indigenous rights as well, and a big one on gender justice, which is about a woman being represented in a balanced and equitable way on, in news media.

John Monahan 15:24

So we're gonna, we have some pictures that we're gonna look at in a few minutes, that give us an idea in a few countries of the kinds of projects that you're involved in. But just backing up for a second, this series is called Changemakers because we are interested both in the change that needs to happen, but also in the people that have taken up the challenge to actually try to affect that change. People that often have options, I know you have options. You could be working in an investment bank, or, or I don't know, a travel agency, I have no idea. You could be a translator, but yet you choose to do the work that you do with WACC, and pursue the studies that you're pursuing for your PhD. What is about this set of issues that has attracted you? Is there something personal about it, that compels you to this work?

Lorenzo Vargas 16:30

Yeah, so I guess my own personal journey is that I grew up in Colombia, moved to Canada as a teenager, and was always keenly aware of the fact that, you know, there were really two main media organizations in the country. And they were both basically saying the same thing

John Monahan 16:47

Within which country?

Lorenzo Vargas 16:48

In Colombia, in Colombia growing up. And really the, the, the social issues in the country were not really being resolved, and I saw clearly that, you know, and later on, I came to Canada, I had a chance to reflect about this, that, you know, this media groups are really just representing the interests of people who are in power, of business elites. And that, really, it's quite difficult for everyday people to have their voice or their concerns heard, whether it was around access to health, or access to education, and so on. And it made me realize that when, cause when I was studying International Development, you know, you can look at education systems for healthcare systems or institutions. But actually in Development, there's a lot of immaterial and cultural elements that are reproduced through media that actually contribute to under development, or poverty or exclusion or undemocratic practices. So I was interested in the immaterial side of development, you know, it's easy to think about, you know, let's build schools or let's build hospitals. But how about we reform the, the system that enables us to choose what we focus on or what we don't focus on? What, what policy issues are important, and what policy issues aren't? So that's really what, what made me think about development from a media and communication point of view.

John Monahan 18:10

And I know that in your current role with WACC, you have global responsibility for your program, right?

Lorenzo Vargas 18:16

That's right. Yeah.

John Monahan 18:18

That's a, that's a big territory.

Lorenzo Vargas 18:21

Indeed, yes.

John Monahan 18:22

It's a big, big sales territory, if I can call it that. But it also gives you a really interesting perspective to presumably be able to, to study and analyze and compare and contrast how different countries, different regions are doing with respect to the democratize-democratization of access to information, and the means of communication. So I'm curious to know, from where you said, are there particular countries of the world that are doing this better than others, places where you think there is something really interesting for other countries to observe and to learn from?

Lorenzo Vargas 19:06

So maybe I'll give an example from a developed country, and an example from the global south. So I'll begin with the example from the developed countries. So for example, one of the things that is happening in Australia now, and it's still, it's an ongoing conversation, is around the regulation of social media platforms and the ways in which the government of Australia is trying to redirect some of the ad revenue that social media platforms generate, such as Facebook and Google, towards public service journalism. As we all know, the media and journalism sector has been decimated over the past 20-25 years as a result of the rise of digital communications, because a lot of the advertising revenue that used to go to media houses now goes to tech giants. So there's a need to regulate all that process, you know, those funds, to find a way to redirect those funds to media organizations that are doing public service journalism in the interest of the public good. And I think that's something that Canada should also, should also be considering in order to ensure the viability of our media sector. And then an example, perhaps from the global south- there's many countries in Latin America, for example, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, that actually enshrined the right to communication in their constitution. So over the past 20 years, and have moved to reform the telecommunications laws. For example, in the broadcasting sector, what they've done is that, you know, let's take a country like Argentina. You know, it used to be controlled, I think 80% of it was controlled by the private sector, and the state would highly politicized process. But essentially, what happened is that they said, okay, we're going to redistribute this, the telecommunications infrastructure and the spectrum, so that 33% of it goes to the private sector, 33% goes to the public sector- so public broadcasting, much like we have the CBC here or the BBC in the UK, and then 33% would go to the community sector, to citizen led efforts. And a percentage of that within the citizen led efforts would go to Indigenous communities. Of course, that is fraught with issues, and it's not an easy thing to do, of course, because many of these organizations that were private media did not want their, the government to basically take away they’re, they’re

John Monahan 21:27

Invested in,

Lorenzo Vargas 21:27

Exactly.

John Monahan 21:28

Yeah.

Lorenzo Vargas 21:28

So it's, and of course, there were interests in parts of governments to keep getting re-elected, to get some citizen groups to support this initiative. So of course, this was a, this was a highly politicized process. But the overall objective of equitably distributing media resources, particularly broadcasting spectrum was, to me, quite revolutionary.

John Monahan 21:49

And so you said, those frameworks have been in place for a couple of decades.

Lorenzo Vargas 21:55

They've been in place for about 10 years, not even 10 years, yeah.

John Monahan 21:58

So, have they taken root? Are they now part of the communications culture in those countries? So clearly, there are private interests, perhaps also government interests that would maybe like to, to turn back the clock? But is, is it working? More than it's not working?

Lorenzo Vargas 22:20

It's a good question. I think it changes from country to country. This country is where, for example, Argentina, in 2015- 2016, there was a government that was like, that was more right leaning, so they sort of dismantled some of these things. And I think last year, there was a government that was elected that was more left leaning, so then reinstated some of these things. So it, it sort of goes, and it's like a pendulum, it goes back and forth. And one of the issues with this is, of course, funding, you know, like, if you're gonna have a citizen led media sector or community media, community radio stations, community television stations. You need funding. But then you need to create an avenue for that funding to, to come to be, and so it's either going to come from the state, which means that mistake can end up using that funding to manipulate that sector.

John Monahan 20:04

Of course.

Lorenzo Vargas 23:04

Or its gonna come from advertising. But then you end up running through the same issues where you have advertising revenue that's controlling the agenda of this media organization. So it's still an experiment. But for sure, it's interesting, because it's an issue that managed to mobilize a lot of civil society organizations in, in Argentina and places like Ecuador, places like Uruguay. So I'd say it's a process that the activists down there are still struggling towards.

John Monahan 23:30

Okay, so you've talked about Australia, you've talked about Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia. Didn't hear you mention Canada. But I'm curious to know how Canada is doing in your assessment. I know that you work primarily in the global south, but how is Canada doing with respect to communications democracy, if I can call it that?

Lorenzo Vargas 23:54

Right. I mean, it's not, I mean, it could be better, but could be worse. So I mean, we have great things, we have a public broadcasting system that, of course, has been underfunded, and then of course, again, with political changes in Canada- so there's more funding going to things like the CBC or APTN, or, or TVO, and what have you, so. But to me, there's a few issues in Canada, the first one being media concentration. If you, if you look at news media, in Canada, there's really a few corporations like Bell, Rogers or Capricor that control a lot of the media and the news that we consume. So there's not a lot of diversity, I would say in, in with the exception, of course, of the CBC in news media content in Canada, so that's something that perhaps should be, anyway. Activists, I'm sure in Canada are working on that. But also to me is the issue, again, of media viability. You know, it's the same thing that I mentioned about Australia. You know, you have institutions that are essential for democracy, media and journalism, but that are basically not viable financially. The financial model that under, that for many, many years, allowed journalism and public service journalism to, like the New York Times or The Guardian, to exist, is being undermined by digital technology that, as I said, takes away ad revenue and funding from this, this organizations and gives it to tech giants. And one of the consequences of that, of course, is the disappearance of many local media outlets. You know, across Canada, you see that, of course, in the big cities, we have the Global and Mail, the Toronto Star, the

John Monahan 25:34

But community newspaper has virtually disappeared

Lorenzo Vargas 25:37

Exactly, exactly. So we have this news deserts, where at the local level, it's really hard to know what is happening. And all you have is content that's being sent in from Toronto or from Montreal or from Calgary, and so on. So, to me, that's, that's a big issue. And it's an issue that over the next few years, I think we'll continue to as, as we struggle with, you know, the impact of, of digital technologies on democracy and elections and so on, that I think is going to continue to grow.

John Monahan 26:07

How fundamental a problem do you think that is for a country like Canada? As we speak tonight, we're now in day two of a new session of parliament, we're reminded that, you know, democracy is ever marching, ever forward in this country. Do you think that the communications landscape in Canada is supportive of enhancement to Canadian democracy? Or does it create more challenges than it does support?

Lorenzo Vargas 26:44

I mean, what I can say is that, in Canada, like in many other countries, there's a high degree of concentration of media of digital power in the hands of just a few corporate actors. So you have actors, most of which are actually not in Canada, but there are a lot of them, are American corporations that actually have a lot of influence on, on, on-or digital infrastructure, digital, on data in Canada. So, I mean, I think that, as I said, maybe into the future, that's something that Canada, like the US, was thinking of doing. We need to find ways to, to break up monopolies of tech giants, to also foster a domestic, domestic alternatives to some of these organizations, some of these private companies, as well as to foster public alternatives to tech giants. For example, we have Facebook and Twitter, which are, you know, big corporations, and, you know, have played important roles in many, in many countries, in terms of democracy and so on. But they're not transparently managed. We have all these issues with fake news, misinformation, disinformation online. So we need to find a way to perhaps think about a public alternative, you know. Can we think of a Canadian public Facebook or public Instagram, much like we have, you know, public broadcaster, like the CBC? That's a policy innovation that could be, you know, and, or a system that pays people for their data. Because right now, we're paying for all the services, through our data and compromising our privacy. So I think as time goes by, and a civil society becomes more aware of some of the perils of having too much power in the hands of corporate actors, when it comes to digital technologies, we'll begin to see some evolution in that, in that regard.

John Monahan 28:29

And is that advocacy happening here in Canada? Are there actors that are advocating for those sorts of public decisions to be made?

Lorenzo Vargas 28:39

Yeah, there's groups like Open Media, for example, out of Vancouver that's doing a lot of this work. And there's groups in Quebec as well that are, that are pushing this forward. I would say it's probably not an issue that's made the Canadian mainstream, you know, we're, that's one of the challenges with this kind of work, that it's a bit for some people might seem a bit esoteric, or a bit abstract

John Monahan 28:59

Kind of a little bit surface, right?

Lorenzo Vargas 29:00

Yeah, exactly. But it's hard to mobilize people who are interested in health or reconciliation, and so on, to think about media structures, because it's sort of, it's like a superstructure, you know, we don't really think about it, we just sort of go about our days.

John Monahah 29:15

Right.

Lorenzo Vargas 29:15

But it really does affect policy, you know. Whatever is being covered in the media, whatever is being, being, being, whatever is receiving attention, in many ways is what ends up being responded to by politicians and policymakers. So

John Monahan 29:31

And whoever controls the levers, whoever is,is writing the copy or issuing the, the messages that is going to largely determine how the conversation is being held.

Lorenzo Vargas 29:46

Precisely. Precisely. Yeah.

John Monahan 29:50

Yeah. So you, do you think that during a time like the one we're living in now, you know, a year and a half or more into a, an existential global crisis, the COVID 19 pandemic- or you might also talk about the climate crisis and other existential crisis- so existential crises squared. Is this an easier time? Or a more difficult time to raise awareness about the, the challenge of information poverty?

Lorenzo Vargas 30:29

Right. Well, we can talk about climate change and COP in a second. But thinking about the pandemic, you know, we saw just how absolutely critical media infrastructure was to get the messages out there about, you know, how to not get infected with COVID, You know, how coverage is transmitted, and so on. And of course, how many people who, who, people who were excluded or who were left behind- so Indigenous communities, people who speak minority languages who could not access this information. As well as how absolutely dangerous, unchecked, if left unchecked, the internet can be when it comes to misinformation and disinformation around vaccines, around you know, this idea that COVID is a hoax, the Chinese Hoax, all these nonsense that is spreading like wildfire, often by malicious actors that have an interest in this. And also, we saw how absolutely critical for our mental health, for our belonging, for our connection to society's media and communication are, right? Like, because of Zoom, because of social media, because of media, we were able to see what was happening, we were able to see, connect with, with loved ones. So I think, it really, I mean, in the work that we were doing, we really saw this organizations on the ground, or a lot of community radio stations, for example, that were like doing really hard work to translate public health messages into local languages to really reach the people who are in remote communities with the message around COVID-19. So in a sense, it became more tangible during the pandemic. But to me, the critical issue here is, continues, to be misinformation, and just how complicated the digital space is becoming.

John Monahan 32:15

So let me play devil's advocate for a second, I'd love you to push back at this. So you talked about disinformation/ misinformation. One might imagine that the more people that are able to create their own messages, the more likely that there will be a cacophony of messages in the marketplace, if I can call it that, marketplace of ideas. And it will be even harder to ascertain what the actual truth capital T is. So is that an argument for the centralization of media resources, perhaps, by the state or one or two deeply trusted corporate actors, rather than spreading access to the means of communication?

Lorenzo Vargas 33:09

I think it's a great question. It's a question that all of us, who are in the space of media scholarship and media activism, ask ourselves. Cause you know, 10 years ago, when the Arab Spring took place, everybody was praising social media, Facebook, how the Egyptian revolution was sort of organized by these, all these activists online. So I think, from the point of view of social organizing, and communities coming together, there's a lot to be said, for, for digital technology that decentralize that power. But the downside to that, and it's almost, it's hard to reconcile the two, is how do you then handle things around truth, facts, which is something that we need, and it's one of the reasons why we need public service journalism? It’s one of the reasons why we need institutions to play this role to, to check facts and non facts. So it goes back to the role of journalists in this, in this role, in this you know, as people who are, have this responsibility, or moral responsibility with society to, to advance truthfulness, to advance inclusion, to look at different opinions, different, different voices. But it's an issue that I think is not resolved- that balance between a fully open communication system- which of course I advocate for, but also one that doesn't perpetuate lies, or, and so on, and I think a lot of that is related to creating more transparent systems. So on the one hand, it entails you know, holding corporations to account, like we're seeing all these things that we're seeing with Facebook, who's the company that's being said, well, that's being told, “well, you have to really up your game when it comes to detecting fake news”. Not just in English speaking countries, but because that's actually one of the main issues. They have a lot of factual fact checkers in English speaking, in the English speaking world. But there was a case study about Ethiopia, how there was rampant misinformation around civil war that's happening there now. And this, Facebook, simply didn't have enough fact checkers, or enough people were able to see what was true or what wasn't true. So we have to hold those corporations to account. But we also have to empower civil society to play a more active role in being a watchdog.

John Monahan 35:22

Right.

Lorenzo Vargas 35:23

So that we're able to keep power in check.

John Monahan 35:27

Right. And, and just because media resources might be concentrated in, in certain countries in the hands of a state actor, that is no, certainly no guarantee that you're going to be receiving truth.

Lorenzo Vargas 35:35

Oh yeah.

John Monahan 35:46

That you're going to be hearing facts, right? Because that's, you know, you're just creating a scenario where people will be applying their own agendas to the distortion of that information. And, you know, governments are not inherently more honest than some actors.

Lorenzo Vargas 36:04

Absolutely, absolutely not, yeah.

John Monahan 36:06

You mentioned climate, or I mentioned climate, we're gonna get back to it. So, COP26 is now in the rearview mirror. You know, the world's leaders came together with civil society for, what some argue, is a last ditch effort to affect substantive progress on the climate emergency. What would you say is the specific relevance of your approach to media democracy to that climate emergency?

Lorenzo Vargas 36:33

I mean, it's great that you asked me this question, because that's actually what my PhD dissertation will be about. But in essence, what we see with climate change and climate injustice really, is that the communities that are most affected by climate change are the communities that have contributed, contributed the least to this crisis. They are often rural communities in the global south whose emissions are far, far lower than, let's say, your emissions are, my emissions here in the, in the global north. And those are the people who are going to be most affected by natural disasters by,

Lorenzo Vargas 37:05

Who haven't really contributed much to this crisis more. So there's two things in that regard. The first one is visibility. You know, we need those voices to be seen to be heard, we need those narratives to be to be seen in, in global spaces, you know. One of the complaints with COP is that it's state actors and there’s private actors, private sector actors, and there's some space for civil society. But really, the voices of people who are affected by climate change are not there. And also the people, the voices of people who are at the forefront of the struggles to keep oil in the ground, to fight back against extractivism, which, in my opinion, are actually the most effective struggles at this point, given the ongoing failure of corporations and government to actually tackle emissions. These corp, these comp, these communities, often Indigenous communities, grassroots communities that are fighting to keep extractive industries out, are actually, those voices are not being heard, you know, in the global media. And those communities are already experiencing communication information poverty, you know, they're often already marginalized, already living in rural areas, already having, already have limited access to technology, or disconnected. So that's one element.

John Monahan 38:32

It’s kind of a condescension towards those voices when the, when they do emerge, when you do hear from grassroots or communities or Indigenous actors talking about extractive industries, you'll often hear some condescension

Lorenzo Vargas 38:48

Right.

John Monahan 38:39

That tries to drown out their voices saying, “well, they just don't get it. They don't understand progress”. And I, is that, is that part of what you're talking about?

Lorenzo Vargas 38:58

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, in, in many countries around the world, let’s say Indigenous communities, are often represented as people who are backward, who are holding back development, who are holding back progress, when really, like, Indigenous communities are actually protecting protecting forests, protecting water resources, protecting ancestral lands, and crucially, hold critical, traditional and Indigenous ecological knowledge

John Monahan 39:25

Right.

Leonardo Vargas 39:25

That could be used for adaptation at the local level. So, in fact, that's one of my main interests these days, is the notion of traditional ecological knowledge, knowledge that is sort of not accepted by western science as one, but that is still valid for those communities and can complement western approaches, or more, more traditional approaches to combating climate change.

John Monahan 39:49

Okay, we have some pictures, I think, from some of the projects that you've worked on. So I just wanna, for the sake of our viewers, I just wanna give them an opportunity to see some of the, the images that you've shared, and give you just a minute to tell us what the work entailed in each of those places. Do we have those slides on the screen? Okay, so looking first, I think this is in Mexico, is that right? So this is a project where you work with a network of Indigenous broadcasters to set up a new radio station. Tell us a little bit about that work.

Lorenzo Vargas 40:33

Right. So in Mexico, we're quite involved with the Indigenous Communication Movement. And that entails in practice, really, two things. First, enabling Indigenous broadcasting, that it's actually, especially that the community broadcasts, and that's controlled by the community themselves. And also to advance this idea of what's now called Community Telecommunication Networks. So there's communities that are too far, too remote, or maybe just not profitable enough for big telecoms to go in and provide internet connectivity. So there's all these Indigenous communities that are creating their own community managed telecommunication infrastructure, which is fascinating.

John Monahan 41:11

That’s amazing.

Lorenzo Vargas 41:11

And this particular project is a group that's based in Mexico City but that's connected to other groups, especially in the southern states of Mexico. And what they did is that they came up with their own ade in Mexico transmitter for their radio stations, so that these communities don't have to pay, you know, $10,000 to import transmitters and antennas from China, or from the US or from Europe or from Germany, but they can actually use Made in Mexico transmitter, which, transmitters, which reduces the price for them to actually be able to set up their own radio station.

John Monahan 41:46

Amazing. Alright, let's move on. We have a picture from Burkina Faso. And I understand that in Burkina Faso, WACC partnered with Zoo Africa Volonterre on a project to mobilize local traditional ecological knowledge, your area of research, as an adaptation mechanism to address climate change. Tell us what this project entailed and what your role was.

Lorenzo Vargas 42:11

Right. So this is a project that just started. We just done negotiating a contract with them a few months ago, a couple months ago. But it's a very innovative project because it's around enabling people who are peasants, or people who are working in the fields, rural communities really, to capture systematized, traditional ecological knowledge. You know, how are they adapted to climate change? What, how are they, you know, innovating in the ways, the way they plant their crops? How are they innovating in the, in the ways they store their grains? How are they using that knowledge to adapt to climate change? So this is a project that is seeking to set up a network of citizen journalists, people who are working in their own community to, A, highlight environmental degradation issues, and, B, raise awareness about traditional ecological knowledge and mobilize it so that other communities can also benefit.

John Monahan 43:10

Amazing. We're gonna put one more picture up on the slide up on the screen. This one is from Jordan. And if I'm not mistaken, this is a project that took place last year, in the midst of the pandemic, and had to do with creating space for the voices of Syrian refugees living in Jordan. Tell us about that work.

Lorenzo Vargas 43:34

Yes, so Jordan has a, an interesting media system, cause over the past few years, they have moving, they have been moving more and more towards allowing community broadcasting, or citizen efforts, citizen led communication efforts. So WACC has been involved for many, many years now. There's, I think, three or four grassroots community radio stations in Jordan. Most of them are in Amman, but of course, there's other, others, in other, in other parts of the country. And since 2015, of course, 2014, there's been a lot of migration of people from Syria to Jordan. And this, as is sadly often the case, there’s been discrimination against them. So this was a project that sought to create a platform for the Syrian community to, A, see itself represented and connect to you know, it's a platform for them to be engaged in dialogue with each other, but also to begin to shape public perception around what it means to be Syrian and Jordan.

John Monahan 44:34

Amazing. Lorenzo, we want to take some questions from our, our viewers. Before we do that, just to wrap up, now you're the first Changemaker, you're making history tonight. We thought it would be interesting for, for folks, and hopefully fun as well, If we always kind of wrap up our conversations with some, what we call a speed round of questions. So don't spend too much time thinking about them, because then that wouldn't be speedy. But we just kind of wanna get your first thoughts that reply to a few questions. And as we do that, I just want to encourage anyone that is viewing, if you have any questions that you'd like to ask, put them in the chat. And we'll be, we'll take them as we can, as we have time. We'd love to broaden this conversation beyond the music room at Hart House to include everybody who was watching us in real time. So ready for the speed round?

Lorenzo Vargas 45:35

Let’s do it.

John Monahan 45:36

Okay. So we talk about Changemakers, we use the term “Leaders by Example”. What do you think makes a good leader?

Lorenzo Vargas 45:46

I think a good leader is somebody who understands that change is collective. You know, it's not about individuals creating change, but is about collective- people collectively creating change. So, a good leader to me is somebody who leads from behind, who supports others, who's able to enable others to shine. To me, that's true leadership.

John Monahan 46:03

Okay. Give us an example of a leader like that, that you admire or who has been influential in your life. I'm not eligible, but give an example of someone that you, for you defines leadership.

Lorenzo Vargas 46:16

Right, right, well, excluding John Monahan, of course, I would say, many of the peace activists in Colombia who were instrumental in the signing of the, of the peace agreement that was signed in 2016. So it's been five years, that includes former President Santos in Columbia, and ultimately, of the peace activists that were pushing for this agreement.

John Monahan 46:37

Do you consider yourself a leader?

Lorenzo Vargas 46:40

In some ways, I think that in the space of Media, and Communication Rights, and so on, perhaps, perhaps a little bit, but I think I still have a lot to learn in many other spaces, especially the space of social movements, and so on, there's many people that I have a lot to learn from.

John Monahan 46:57

So speaking of learning, I tend to think that some of the best learning that I've done in my life comes from the failures, not from the successes so much. And I'm wondering if you're able to share a failure from your life that you have learned from? And if so, what did you learn? And how did it help to propel you forward?

Lorenzo Vargas 47:22

Yeah, I mean, I think a challenging time I had was when I was doing my, my research for my master's degree, which was, would focus on citizen engagement among internally displaced youth in Colombia. So I was at McGill, and I had a chance to go down to Colombia to do interviews and so on. And I realized that I was so out of my depth, you know, like, you know, first of all, I had grown up in Bogota, so, in a sort of a bubble from the rest of the country. And then I had, you know, I also grew up in Canada, and I thought it was going to be so easy for me to go there and navigate the local context, and so on. And it really wasn't. A, like, people locally saw me as a foreigner, or some extra source of funding. And also, I realized that I have so much to learn from grassroots activists, people who are there everyday. Like, it's so easy for me to fly in from Canada, you know, be there for a few weeks, do some interviews, and get a master's degree and get recognized, but the, really, people who are there every day, you know, working with grassroots communities, organizers- those were the people who I admire, and were the real learning for me was. So I think it was about learning what my role might be.

John Monahan 48:34

And you're barely, I mean, this question is really about going, if you could go back and talk to your 18 year old self, about how to grow into being a Changemaker, what advice would you offer? Now you're barely 18.

Lorenzo Vargas 48:52

Right.

John Monahan 48:52

So it seems like a, like an almost irrelevant question. But you know, entertain me. So, if you could go back and talk to yourself as an 18 year old and talk about how to be a Changemaker, someone who leads by example, what would you tell yourself?

Lorenzo Vargas 49:08

I mean, first of all, when I was 18 I was probably not interested in, in being a Changemaker. I was probably interested in playing soccer all the time, which I used to do here at Hart House, the back campus field at UofT.

John Monahan 49:18

You still can.

Lorenzo Vargas 49:20

I still do.

John Monahan 49:21

You still can.

Lorenzo Vargas 49:23

But I would say maybe look at your assets as opposed to what you're lacking. And this goes back to the experience I just shared doing my, my research in Colombia. I realize that maybe some of the assets that I have is that you know, I'm globally connected, that I speak English or speak French, that I’m, that I can translate, culturally translate or so, translate what's happening in Latin America or in the global south to donors, or policymakers, for people who have influence in the global north. So realizing that actually is my role, instead of maybe I don't have to be a grassroots activist. There's people who are better qualified or really doing it. So maybe pick, look at your assets, see what you can build on, as opposed to maybe focus on what you don't have.

John Monahan 50:11

Okay. Now I wanna see, do we have any questions in our, unless somebody else's computer, so let's just see how smoothly I can do this. Alright, here's a good question. This is asked in the first person, so understand that as I read it, “ if I were interested in volunteering, or getting involved, or even knowing more, would you take interns or volunteers?” So it's a question about how someone who has been inspired by what you've talked about tonight, maybe they already were interested in the issue. Presumably they were or they wouldn't be tuning in. But they've been inspired by you tonight. And they wanna know what they can do to be involved. Does WACC have opportunities for internships or volunteers? Or are there other organizations, perhaps, that you know or work with, where they might go for that kind of opportunity?

Lorenzo Vargas 51:11

Absolutely. We take interns all the time. You know, actually, many of them come from UofT. We have a partnership with the PCJ Program, the Peace, Conflict and Justice Program, as well as with the Munk School, the MGA program, the Masters

John Monahan 51:23

Masters of Global Affairs, yup.

Lorenzo Vargas 51:23

We’ve had one intern from there. We've had interns from McGill University, we've had interns from Queen's as well. So of course, and we have every year, opportunities to get involved to volunteer. So yeah, by all means, get in touch.

John Monahan 51:40

And I know that a lot of students that we, that we work with at Hart House will want to know what kind of work they might find themselves doing if they were to pursue an internship with, with you at WACC. What would that look like? Would they be licking envelopes? Would they be doing research? What kind of work do interns typically do?

Lorenzo Vargas 52:04

Well, I'll give you an example, we're about to start a new internship partnership with the PCJ program. It's one of the courses, I forget what the number of courses, but it's a course that enables, that will enable us at WACC to benefit from the expertise of three high achieving students to tackle one particular issue, and the issue that we'll be looking at in the winter term will be the representation of Indigenous issues and indigenous Peoples in Canadian news media. So this will be, cause we at WACC have a methodology to monitor media content, which we have used for gender issues and migration issues. But given the critical importance of Indigenous Rights in Canada, we would like to use that methodology to look at how those issues are represented in Canadian news media, so that eventually, some change could be made at the editorial level and so on. So that is perhaps an example of what could be, but could be any number of things.

John Monahan 53:01

Okay. If you had the opportunity to sit down and talk with the Federal Minister of Communications, in the new federal cabinet, what message would you want to leave with the minister?

Lorenzo Vargas 53:20

I would say that, at the domestic level, we need to find a way to support a more vibrant journalism sector that works for the public service, for the public good, I apologize. And that entails tackling the concentration of power in the hands of a few corporate actors, particularly in regards to digital power. And at the international level, candidates will be playing an important role in promoting media freedom. In fact, we hosted a major conference last year with the UK, also this year, Major International Conference on Media Freedom. So Canada is already engaging at that level, but of course that requires more funding and financing to enable, to support media workers around the world and journalists in particular.

John Monahan 54:09

Interesting so we are, we are putting our, some of our money where our mouth is when it comes to access to media. We still have our own problem with, with overconcentration

Lorenzo Vargas 54:20

Right,

John Monahan 54:21

Of media in too few hands, but we are active internationally at promoting media freedom.

Lorenzo Vargas 54:27

Exactly, yes.

John Monahan 54:30

Okay. Lorenzo in our, in our last few minutes, is there anything that you would wanna to say to our audience that you haven't said, any final thoughts you would want to share? Maybe something that is giving you hope right now when it comes to the issue of information poverty. Something that is, that might give our audience hope as they think about these issues in new ways after tonight.

Lorenzo Vargas 54:59

Well, I think that there's more critical, there's a more critical take on the tech world and, and digital giants. I think for, as I said earlier, for many years, we were idealizing these, these big corporations, you know. Say they're innovative, they're, you know, moving fast, breaking things and so on, is something that was maybe a good thing. But I think now, more and more people are beginning to ask questions. And for an example of that, here in Toronto was the whole issue with Sidewalk Labs, which was gonna be this, this neighborhood that was gonna be developed by one of the companies that Google is connected to. And that ended up not happening. But to me, the main thing was like, people were actually asking some questions, you know. Torontonians were asking, you know, who's going to govern that data? Where's the data going to be stored? How is it, how are we gonna know that it’s not being just harvested to make money for Google? Can we think of an alternative that is, you know, run by the City of Toronto? Right. So I think there's more awareness of the critical importance of, of taking some of that power back from corporations into our own hands as citizens.

John Monahan 56:06

So yes, are, so the citizenry of Toronto and, arguably, other parts of Canada as well, although I don't know those parts as well as I know Toronto, you're seeing a level of engagement and sophistication when it comes to kind of holding the feet of media players to the fire?

Lorenzo Vargas 56:30

Right

John Monahan 56:30

To ensure that they are abiding by code of ethics, that they're not impeding access to free information, that they are inserting the integrity of information that's being disseminated. Do you think Canadians, when it comes to these sorts of issues, are they better as consumers or better as voters?

Lorenzo Vargas 56:57

Ahhaa, good question. I mean, I think it's hard to answer because this is not an issue that regularly comes up, in during a federal election.

John Monahan 57:05

You think it should?

Lorenzo Vargas 57:05

I think it should. I think it should, because ultimately, it's about Canadian, I mean, you know, Canadian media theory and Canadian identity was built on wrestling back that power from the US in terms of media. That's why we have the CBC, right, to create Canadian narratives, Canadian content? So that actually is pretty important. I think it's an essential element of Canadian democracy to see how much we can govern our own data and how much we can push for more democratic approach to the whole thing.

John Monahan 57:38

Lorenzo, thank you for being a Changemaker. Thank you for the work that you do for the example that you set. Thank you for being our, I don't want to say guinea pig, that sounds so manipulative. But thank you for working with us to iron out the bugs and the challenges of this environment. Thank you for taking off your mask and sitting behind plexiglass for the last hour. We're very grateful to everyone that has joined us live this evening for our event of the 21-22 academic year here at Hart House. I want to thank my guests Lorenzo Vargas. There are more Changemaker conversations coming. The next one speaking of democracy, resilient democracies, we're gonna be having a conversation with Sabreena Delhon , who is the Executive Director of the Samara Centre for Democracy, on how to build resilient democracies, and we'll be sure to ask her about access to communication in that conversation. And then in March, we will wrap up this year's series with a conversation featuring Lorin MacDonald, who is an amazing human rights lawyer, and CEO and founder of an organization called Peer Review, and you won't wanna miss either of those conversations. Once again, thank you for joining us this evening, and I look forward to seeing you in the New Year. In the meantime, Happy Holidays.

Lorenzo Vargas 59:09

Thank you.

John Monahan

Thank you so much to Lorenzo Vargas for joining me in conversation. To learn more about Lorenzo and his work, you can follow WACC @waccglobal on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. Today's episode of Changemakers was produced by a great team of colleagues at Hart House, including Jennifer, Michele, Amy and Lena. And it has been edited by Janine Alhadidi. Original music by Recap, they can be found on SoundCloud. To learn more about Changemakers, please visit harthouse.ca, or follow us on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube or Facebook. Our handle is @harthouseuoft. I'm John Monahan. Thank you for listening.

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

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TWMR Ep 49 Deconstructing Shame

Lisa

Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room.

Janine

We are broadcasting on CIUT 89.5 FM at Hart House hosted by Janine

Lisa

and Lisa and for this week's episode, we sit down for a roundtable discussion with our special guest Sarah Zaman to discuss deconstructing shame.

Janine

We each spoke about our own unique connection to the topic.

Lisa

We also talk about experiencing shame and how to deal with it in the moment, as well as how to overcome its long term effects.

Janine

We hope some of these discussions bring you relief, comfort, or just a knowledge that you are not alone in experiencing this even though shame can often feel isolating. Enjoy this week's episode of The West Meeting Room. To start, I'm going to introduce myself. My name is Janine. I'm a fourth year student at the University of Toronto studying political science and diaspora and transnational studies. This is my last semester, I have grown up my entire life in Jordan. And growing up in a Middle Eastern home. I think I saw shame as something that took over my life. And something that I felt was pervasive in different aspects of me, my goals. And it's something that I'm slowly unlearning today. Lisa, would you like to introduce yourself to everyone now?

Lisa

Hello, my name is Lisa. I'm a third year commerce student undergraduate commerce student with a minor in cinema studies. For me, the topic of shame is one that really sort of difficult to conceptualize and talk about, because I feel like it's very pervasive in many aspects of society. Both from my background as a coming from a Nigerian household, but also in North American society. I think shame. Shame is just a thing in a lot of societies. And it's sort of difficult to identify, how to identify when you're experiencing shame, and how it affects you. But I'm working on learning more about that and trying to, I guess, as Janine said, unlearn it. So pass this to Sarah.

Sarah B. Zaman

Hello, my name is Sarah or Sarah, I don't mind either. I am a third year student at the University of Toronto, currently completing my undergraduate degree in global health, political science and human geography a mouthful to say. But I'm excited to be here, I just want to say that a little bit about myself in terms of my background kind of growing up and how that relates to shame. I grew up as a first generation South Asian, person, child person, however you want to call it. And my so my parents immigrated to Canada, and we lived in the states for a bit, but mostly Canada. When I was about one years old, I was born in New York. And so growing up, I think, in terms of shame, there's a really big contrast and dichotomy between how my parents handle shame and deal with shame and like more traditional sense, and the way that they dealt with it growing up in a place like Bangladesh, that's like very conservative, they're very traditional. Whereas here, I obviously understand shame a little bit differently because of the Western ideals and Western understandings behind shame. And how kind of I dealt with that. Versus like, what like my friends, my Western friends say how to deal about shame and how they talked about it, versus how my parents taught me about shame and how I react to shame differently in the household and outside of it.

Janine

I'm really excited to jump right in. Um, so I think that I just want to kind of ask you both, where the understanding of shame was shaped in your life. Um, let's start with an early memory that you had where you felt you felt that intense feeling that visceral experience of shame, but didn't have the word to describe it. Maybe it could be as a child, maybe when you're older. Maybe it could mean have to do with understandings of femininity, or culture or religion or could be as simple as you know, when we're young, we're told to sit a certain way or act a certain way because other people will talk. So I would love to hear more about you know, What's the earliest memory of shame as for you both,

Lisa

Um, it's hard for me to pinpoint a single memory that I would call my earliest memory of shame. I just remember being younger, and I never wanted to sort of disappoint my mom, like, I'd never wanted her just sort of, I don't know if this happens to other people, or I don't know. But you know, when you do something, and your parents give you that look at it, you feel like the smallest, like thing, you just feel like you're like, the scum of the earth. But like worse, I never wanted to receive that look. Because it made me feel horrible about myself. And so I just remember, in general, just sort of tiptoeing around lots of things in my life, just so that I would never have to feel the shame associated with that look from my mom. But when I was younger, I didn't have the words for it, I didn't know that it was shame, I just knew that I didn't want to feel that way.

Janine

It's funny that you see disappointment, because that seems to be a theme in my life as well. I think just hearing you talk about it, Lisa just reminded me of, you know, growing up, even as a child, for for me growing up, it was a lot of extended family. So the concept of disappointment was not only limited to my household, it was limited to like, at least five or six other households of people that raised me really, and I think that, um, I always felt like there was, you know, something that I had to uphold, in order to earn my way into the family or to stay in the family. What I mean by that is not that I was told I wasn't good enough, but that societal fear of you know, my family is my honor, my family is my everything I want to you know, earn my status and view or I want to be the perfect daughter, the perfect sister to people, the perfect woman to other people. And this became a theme growing up, I feel like after the age of maybe six or seven when I was seeing when I left that like toddler childhood, almost phase and it seems young, but you know, when you're a child going from seven to 10, to 12 to 14, you go through so many changes. And there are so many things that I felt, you know, visceral feelings of embarrassment, feelings in my gut, just oh my god, you know, I have gained weight. What will this person think of me and my family? Oh, my God, my clothes were not properly ironed I am, you know that I'm a disgrace. In some ways, people will think I'm not neat, or my family is not neat. I could see small experiences that now as an adult, I'm like, Wow, it makes sense. You know, like, I understand it. So everything you said, Lisa, particularly with my parents, I mean, what you said about your mom, I feel with my dad as well, of like, my dad had very specific standards for his children in the best of ways, you know, the way that we are to, you know, take care of ourselves, and how that reflects on to others is very important. So, I definitely feel that, that sometimes it's subconscious, even from parents.

Sarah B. Zaman

I think it's really interesting that both of you brought up shame and kind of a larger sense how it kind of impacts the entire your entire family, whether that's extended people you live with, or just your immediate family, I actually had a pretty different experience with shame, I think in a familial sense. I think growing up, I was kind of taught, and maybe it's because my mother, like, God bless the woman. She's great. I love her. She's my mom. But I think there will there were a lot of moments growing up where it was just safer, quote, unquote, for us to kind of repress emotions versus express them. So I think this idea of shame, it was something that growing up I was taught, like, you have to deal with that yourself. Like, if you feel ashamed for something like that's, for lack of better words, that's a you problem. And you like that shame only applies to you and you need to find a way to fix that shame and not let it impact the way you see like it's almost as if, when I think about all this familiar pressures, which I definitely felt, of course, I feel like very common thing to feel. I think daughters also particularly particularly have different forms of pressures for various numbers of reasons. But I think when I think about the whole idea of like shame and a familial sense and those pressures. For me, when I think of that the first thing that comes to my mind is kind of what happens before it reaches other people. And so if, for example, Janine was saying, oh, like, your clothes are neat, your room isn't me, like, You don't look proper. It's almost as if that were to happen, I would be forced to deal with it. And before I was allowed to, like, be open about it. So when I think of it in that way, it's very much like, it was a battle within myself, that I needed to figure I need to deal with it before other people could say anything about it, if that makes sense.

Janine

Wow. I just want to say that you just encapsulated so much what I thought about, like, just growing up with like, it's a me problem. That's, that's so true. It was, you feel it,you internalize it, as you know, something that you are dealing with, and something that is inherently your fault. And even when you don't understand the concept of responsibility, you understand the concept of, you know, quote, unquote, being proper, you know, what will people think being a good person, understanding that there are certain protocols to follow? You know, even when I would sit on the dinner table, I remember very clearly, there's a certain way to eat, there's a certain way to do things, and there's certain way to exist almost. So Lisa, I'm really curious with you as well. Did you also feel that sense as a child of it's a me problem? Or did you think of it as everyone else's, you know, problem, or it was other people targeting you?

Lisa

Um, yeah, that's a very interesting way to look at it. But it's a me problem. I think the answers for me is yes, and no. Um, because when I think of shame, from a familial point of view, I spent a lot of time thinking that it was a me problem. I remember distinctly, one time something had happened. I had, like, gotten into an argument with my mom. And I went to school the next day, and I said to my friends, I was like, do you think I have dysfunctional thinking, because that had been something that had been like a phrase that had been thrown at me in the conversation. And I felt like I fully internalize that, and I fully thought that it was like, I was just not thinking straight, and like, there was something wrong with me. And so when you talk about, Sarah, when you talk about like, having to deal with it before it gets out, for me that that's like a very visceral feeling of like, when something happens, or when I feel that way, I'm like, I need to fix this thing that I did that caused me to feel the shame before it becomes like a bigger deal bigger deal than it already is. But on the flip side, I feel like okay, this is gonna sound so wack. But, as a child, I watch a lot of Barbie movies, and I read a lot of books, and I'm gonna make the connection. But the connection was a lot of Barbie movies are about like, believing in yourself, trusting yourself. And a lot of the books that I read were around those similar themes. So as much as I felt the difficulty of internalizing shame, and blaming myself, on the other hand, I also had like Barbie in my ear telling me that I have to love myself and that it's okay to be me. So it was always like this fight within myself of like, do I like allow myself to internalize the shame and feel like it's a me problem? Or do I fight back and say, No, it's not a me problem. It's a you problem. And I feel like even to this day, I still kind of ride that fine line of like, now it's no longer a Barbie. It's more like other like, people that I meet in life or YouTubers that I watch, but I still have that struggle of like, when like, Is it me? Or is it them?

Janine

Wow. For me, it was Bratz. But yeah, similar. No, I never thought of it that way actually, that the the idols you have growing up or the movies you watch and things thatyou, you know, immerse yourself and really make a difference growing up. Because for me when I would watch those movies, it would feel less I should believe in myself and more of why am I not that? You know, why am I not them? I don't look like that. I don't talk like that. It seems like you definitely feel like the sell this to children as like this perfect life of, you know, this woman like it's like, you know, the typical like, not even just Ken and Barbie just even Disney Princesses, you know, they're always beautiful and everything just magically happens and you know, they're no problems and you meet your prince charming all these all this all these things that were fed. I think for me growing up, I reject so deeply because I think those brought me shame of I felt, you know that my honor, my worth came from, you know, finding, quote, unquote, a prince charming or finding or living that like lavish life that I'd see with people on TV and different shows and movies I watched and it really, you know, I had to take a good look at it growing up and realized, you know, that's not real life. And that's not where my worth or my honor comes from. And to me, like, honor and shame are very much it's a dichotomy, right? Like, my honor is someone else's shame. My shame is someone else's honor. And it's so really hard cycle to be honest. And I'm curious, Sarah, would you? Did you feel a similar way? with, you know, cartoon characters or things that you grew up with? Do you feel like they gave you that sense of confidence of, you know, I'm rejecting what it's being told to me and my surroundings, and I'm choosing to just know, be child be like, be rambunctious Be confident, you know, did you experience that?

Sarah B. Zaman

I just want to, echo what Janine said like, you said very eloquently, you said what needed to be said, I definitely agree with a lot of what Lisa said. And there was actually one thing that Janine said, just before you, Lisa, that it really resonated with me, it was this idea that humor is used to deflect those comments and those things. And so to be I'm going to be super honest, I don't really feel shame. Like I haven't felt shame in a really long time. And I think a big reason for that is because I used humor and comedy to deflect a lot of that. So shameless plug here, haha, shameless. I do stand up comedy. And I think that has been a really great outlet for me to talk about things that would, before that point in my life made me feel maybe embarrassed or ashamed or taboo things to talk about. And I was like, You know what, full frontal. Let me just like, get on stage and just talk about it. And maybe a couple of people will relate, I can make a funny story out of it, I could have a good time talking about it. And so ever since I was able to find an outlet, I think least I think the original question was something along the lines of how do you deal with with those comments, and like the potential of shame and embarrassment and stuff being built up from that? I dealt with it. using humor, I dealt with it by never really taking anything too seriously. So I think that's there's a line, there's a very thin line that you tread with that it's like, yeah, sure, use humor as a way to like cope with it use humor as a way for you to kind of deflect that shame. So you don't internalize it. But it's also don't use that humor to hide the way you actually feel about things. Cause I think something that's super important is, if someone says something to you that you didn't like, you're allowed to be upset about it. You're allowed to have it affect you and affect the way you think about yourself. But only in that moment, right. It shouldn't affect you in the long run. Lisa summed it up really well, like or Janine also said it as well. But like these people, what they say is, in fact, its opinion. And so I think as humans, we're obviously going to have emotions and complex things that impact the way we deal with situations. But it's also really important to understand that things like humor, or things like not taking things too seriously or acting facetiously in situations shouldn't. What's the word it shouldn't clog or block the way you feel. And I feel like that's something that I've had a really hard time dealing with. Like I think I use a lot of like self-deprecating humor and stuff. Because I don't necessarily feel shameful for like, talking smack about myself. I don't know I can swear here. I'm just gonna keep it clean for the family. But like saying nice things about myself. And it's just like a really thin line where to some degree, I definitely have internalized some of that. But I've definitely taken what people have said about me turn it into such Big like such a big joke that I now start to think that things about myself because it's like, haha, so funny everyone laughs at it when I talk about it. But it's also important to realize like to some degree, making it a joke has helped me not internalize something. So very, very thin line that you have to try them like, it's I think all about finding that balance. I think Lisa kind of brought a balance this idea of like, you're the only one living with yourself. So it doesn't matter if other people laugh at these strokes, it's Are you laughing at them? And are you crying inside? Because the joke to put it very clearly.

Janine

I just want to give you all you podcast listeners. So some applause because that was amazing. And I completely agree with everything you said. Well, you can't give us a shameless plug and not tell us more about your comedy. The people want to hear more about it Sarah tell us so now I'm really curious. So what kind of material are you working on? And how have you incorporated? Some of what we're talking about in your actual shows?

Sarah B. Zaman

Yeah, for sure. Oh, my God. Yes. I will totally market myself get a follow me on Instagram. Don't …kidding. But I think Yeah, humor has been our stand up comedy in particular has been such an amazing experience. I think I'm very lucky to have found it when I did. I found it in 10th grade. And I don't know about y'all, but 10th grade, like she was not the cutest time, there was a lot of flying emotions in 10th grade. And I think 10th grade was also a time. How Will there be a 10th grade like 15, 16? That's like prime teenagerism, like, but I think like a bit more about my comedy I talk a lot about a lot of is just anecdotal experiences. And I've talked a lot about kind of experiences that I've had, that I think are generally somewhat taboo for a girl to talk about, like I've talked about, like going out and partying and like, sorry, mom, but like drinking and how like those types of experiences and, and like, a lot of it's a little bit more aggressive and somewhat vulgar. And I think that's not really the good, quote unquote, image of the perfect immigrant daughter and like, what will people think and so I think I was very lucky to be in a space where I had enough confidence in who I am, although none of it was unprecedented. Like, there was no reason I had the confidence of a teenage white boy, like, I did not need that confidence. Like, where did that come from? Who knows. But it was something that like, I'm very fortunate, very blessed to have had found so early on, and been able to turn it into something that yes, has helped me. And definitely helped me kind of come to terms with like, these experiences. Like there's no such thing as a normal experience. I started this, like, I'm trying to think of an example that's like, kind of appropriate to talk about here. A lot of them are not, but like, like, oh, like I talk a lot about kind of how my gent like our generation, and like my sister's generation, she was one of them all of it. So talk about the differences between those generations. And I'm like, this girl knows how to work an iPad better than me, that's freaky. And like, stuff like that. And I'm like, I like kind of say things, how it is like, or how I've experienced them. And it's definitely obviously helped me kind of come to terms with understanding these things better, and kind of presented in like a story format, where it's easier to digest. But there's been instances where I've like done a couple of shows, and people came up to me is like or how I've experienced them. And it's definitely obviously helped me kind of come to terms with understand these things better, and kind of presented in like a story format, where it's easier to digest. But there's been instances where I've like done a couple of shows, and people came up to me afterwards and like Sarah, no one experience that you had that was so funny, but it's also like, that's so true. Like, I also like bled through my pants and my period and a guy like that. That was a wack story. I bled through my pants. I was on my period, bled through my pants and like trying to clean the blood out of these pants and some dude walked in and he's funny like pantless bathroom. Super sad story. Like that was something that people had related to was maybe not that far, but people were like, yes, it's so like, embarrassing and like kind of shameful for me to bleed through my pants on my period. It's like, no, it's not girl, like, you get like we all get our period. And it's all something we'd like amendment like hundreds of 1000s of millions of people deal with it. So I don't know why we find so much shame within that. And so I think my stand-up comedy has been a really nice way for me to kind of come to terms with those things on my own be like, yes, it's funny and relatable. And it's fine that happened. But also like for other people, like they're also able to find humor in it. And all I can hope is that they like feel a little ashamed when it comes to that stuff.

Janine

It's I just love your approach, because you're taking something that a lot of people would see as like, you know, debilitating, the embarrassing, and you made it funny. And you it's a funny memory and it's material. And I want to know, Lisa, do you kind of look at humor the same way? Or what's been your way of, of dealing with a lot of comments and what people say?

Lisa

Yeah, I definitely agree with what both you Janine and Sarah were saying about humor. My humor is I just joke about if, if anything bad happens or anything traumatizing happens, I turn it into a joke. Sometimes you deeply inappropriate language like I should not be joking about this very enticing thing. Sara's laughing because she knows so the stuff that I say. But like, yeah, I think I don't like do stand up or anything. But just like within my daily life, with like, the people that I interact with on a regular basis, I just joke about everything. And I think it helps, it definitely helps. And going back to sort of what you said, Sarah, about talking, talking and sharing your experiences, and then having people say, oh, that I had the same experience, or I felt that that's sort of what I tried to do when I make it a joke. So when I sort of like, if it's difficult to talk about it, and feel the full weight of the emotion, joke about it instead. And then other people are then able to share their experiences, laugh, feel comfortable, and also sort of knowing that if there's something shameful happens, or if I feel shame about something, if I know that if I joke about it, it's sort of like if you expose yourself to something a lot, it's just the power, it loses its power, right? So I consistently, I used to do this thing in high school, going back to the topic of periods. I know that like in general, like societal, you people don't like it when you talk about your period. But I'm like, this thing happens to me every single month, and I can't not talk about it. Because when people when you have a cold when you have a headache, you know, like you say I don't feel well, I have a headache, I have a cold. And like every month, my period just happens. And I'm like debilitated for a couple of days. And so I just found that just sort of hammering down on that topic and sort of talking about it consistently joking about it. It made the power of the shame that I was supposed to be feeling society wise anyways, go away. So joking is really helpful. But sort of like Sarah said, you don't want to take it too far. Because you want to realize that, like you still have emotions about that situation underneath. And so you sort of have to realize when you're joking, and then when it's no longer a joke, and it's you need to actually deal with, like the way that you're feeling inside. So yeah, it's sort of like that, give and take. But I also wanted to actually touch on something earlier, about, like dealing with shame and talking to people about it. So I found that like to help me, I talked to my friends about basically everything. And that's like, mostly where the joking comes in. But like, we would talk about anything that we felt we were ashamed about. And it was helpful to sort of have people who, when we shared our experiences, I realized, okay, I'm not the only one feeling this, I'm not the only one going through this. And that helps me realize that it's really just, it's not a big deal. It's not the end of the world. So, yeah, I think sort of the joking and the people are connected, right? Because you can't sort of joke by yourself. But yeah, um, so I guess my next question would be, how do you sort of deal with shame when you are in the moment experiencing it, but then also after? How do you? How do you deal with it?

Janine

Um, for me, I think first of all, everything that Sara said, really resonated with me. Because I think that if you ask me 5, 10 years ago, versus today, the answer be very different. I think that I used to antagonize a lot of people that would, you know, comment on my appearance or, you know, project their own insecurities onto mine. But I think I also had to realize that, you know, we to have to extend that grace, you know, aunties or to other people, that you love in your community commenting on you or your achievements or who you are, is really a projection of how they see themselves or what they've been taught reproduced onto you. So I think that when I feel it, now I remember to, you know, breathe, and really think critically about what's being said, and evaluate whether it's a fact, or if it's an opinion, and I think that's really saved me. Because before, I would assume all these things that were said to me were facts, I never stopped for a second and questioned whether they were opinions or facts, I just truly assumed that they must know what they're saying they're older. And this is right. And I have to look like this because it's, it looks better, or I have to talk like this. I think as a child, I've always been someone who's very assertive in the way that I speak in the sense that I am not that sort of submissive type of woman. When I'm around people I love to, you know, make my opinion clear, while respecting other people's opinion. I think that was seen as masculine to a lot of people. And so there's a lot of unlearning. So that feeling of shame, I believe is, I don't think I think shame is the outcome. But I think things like embarrassment, things like anger, things like frustration are the immediate reactions that your body takes. And so when I feel that feeling in my gut, and it goes up my chest, and it flares up, and that embarrassment, of being singled out of how dare someone just like, comment about my weight gain during a very difficult time in my life? How could someone say that I didn't do well, in school, when I was doing two jobs at the same time, or they don't know what I'm going through, they don't see the other side. But at the end of the day, you know, when people project their own insecurities onto you, I think, just stay, you know, calm, really think about what's being said, remind yourself that, you know, it's an opinion, it's not reality, and just, you know, think about your own inner voice and what you think of yourself and your own standards of yourself. So to answer your question, Lisa, for me, the immediate reaction of the feelings after are so connected, because, you know, you can't blame yourself for having a reaction because it's your body, physically reacting, something being said, You can't sit and and tell yourself that, you know, how could this be have been said to me, I don't know how to deal with it. Because it's already been said, right? The moments already gone. So it's about how you react to it react with kindness, react with grace, sometimes when people tell me that I've gained weight, I'll react with Yeah, I'm gonna gain more weight, actually, I'm planning like, like, it's almost like having this like humor to it. And it leaves you in the cycle of confidence, because people in front of you don't know how to react to that. So it's taking shame, taking ownership of that, and refusing for you to be shamed in that way. More so, you know, say that this is a moment that's been subjected onto me, this is how I'm going to deal with it. I'm curious about what your experiences have been both of you. So I'd love to learn more.

Lisa

Um, yeah, I think for me, um, something you said Janine, that really resonated with me was realizing that when people try to make you feel shame, they're projecting their insecurities onto you, and sort of distinguishing what is someone's opinion and what is fact. So for me, it's been something that I really need to focus on. I think in the moment when something happens, and I feel shame, I react usually with defiance, because similar to you, Janine, I don't like, I don't really do well with authority figures. And I don't like being told what to think, or what to do, and so I sort of react, I'm very reactionary to it, I guess. And I sort of like, talk back and say, you know, you're wrong, or I don't believe this or whatever. And in the moment, it's that very, like, emotional, guttural reaction of "You don't get to say that about me or you don't get to tell that to me". But then when I go back, and like,time has passed or like, the next day or whatever, then I have to like sit with the feelings because me reacting is me reacting 'cause I've been hurt, right? It's because someone has touched something in me, or poked me in a place that hurts. So when I go back later on, I then have to work through the feelings. And that's when the things like feeling like it might be my fault or feeling like it's a me problem, that's when I deal with that. And so my way of dealing with that, and trying to make sure that it doesn't stick with me and stick with my psyche, is to realize that it's their opinion, and their opinion is irrelevant. And I like to say this thing, which, maybe it might come off as self centered, but I had to realize at the end of the day that like, the only person that I have to live with every single day in my life is myself. So no matter where I go, no matter what I do, I'm always going to have to live with me 24-7, I'm stuck in my brain, awake or asleep, it's just me. And so I have to make sure that I make my brain a safe space for me. And that means not internalizing other people's opinions of me or other people's standards, and making sure that I'm happy with myself, and if I'm not, then I'll try to fix it. But if I'm happy with the decision that I've made, or I'm happy with the way that I am, then that's like, the most important thing, and anything else is just like, it's just icing on the cake. You know?

Janine

We need that in a mug. I just wanted to add that in there. But, um, that was amazing, Lisa. Thank you so much for sharing that. I, that that what you just said, um, that you are the only person that's going to stay with yourself, day in and day out. 'Til, you know, we leave this earth, you have yourself and creating that safe space for inner dialogue, you know, cannot be emphasized enough, because I think that the harsher we are with ourselves, the easier things like embarrassment, shame, frustration, just ease into our system. So, well said amazing, definitely important to hear. Um, so tethering what you just said with, you know, how you said you can't joke with yourself? I'm really curious, with your both of your experiences, because we talked a lot about shame inflicted by other people or provoked by other people. What about self-shaming? You know, tell me a bit about what that looks like. And I'm curious to see whether, or to understand, if your form of self-shaming is another, in some ways, worse. And it's obviously, you know, impacted by societal standards or things that you grew up being conditioned, that it was right, even if you refuse it categorically with other people, just within yourself, you believe it. So I just want to ask you both. What does shame, self-shame specifically, look like? If it were a person, how would it look like?

Lisa

So I think this is a very interesting question. If my internal shame was a person, what would it look like? Um, it would honestly look like some of the people that I know in my life. And I think, I think it goes back to that thing of like, sort of internalizing other people's insecurities. Because what you said, Janine, of like how my shame is sort of based off of how I grew up and what I was conditioned to believe. So when I'm feeling the shame about these things, most of it is not from me. It's not. It's not because I don't think I'm good enough. It's because I think I'm not good enough, because someone else told me that I'm not good enough. So yeah, it definitely looks like some of the people that I know. Um, but when I'm dealing with that self-shame, that self-shame, I think it just goes back to the thing of, I have to remember that it's not me who's speaking. It's so-and-so who's in my mind, he's like, a little like, person on my shoulder speaking into my ear. And so I just tried to, I tried to block that out. I do this thing a lot, where if I'm feeling, if I'm feeling an uncomfy emotion, such as shame, I would just be like, no, we're not going to do that today. Like no, and I'll just like, shut it off. And I don't necessarily think this is the healthiest thing, because it then sort of tends to lead to things building up and me not really addressing things. But I think when I feel that shame is stopping my, like, functionality or stopping me from doing something that I know will be good for me. It's healthy, it's healthy to just tell myself, no, and just stop it because this is not you, and you need to be you and not someone else.

Janine

Wow. Yeah, I was about to say something like, mine would be like a mean, teacher sitting behind the desk, and like, marking everything I do wrong. Everything I do, right in my life, but you guys said it so eloquently. And I think that self-shame is probably my worst enemy in my life, like internalized shame, and this, you know, goes through every single like, caveat, whether it's like, gender, or feelings of shame as a woman, specifically feelings of shame with my body, feelings of shame as a student, you know, being at U of T, I think, I felt a lot of shame in the beginning, for feeling like I'm not performing like other people are, or I'm not at the caliber of some other people around me. I'm not good enough, this constantly repeats over and over and over my system of, you know, you are not good enough, that person is good enough. Even though to me, my dialogue with other people is very affirming. I love to see my friends thrive, I love to see people around me thrive, I want to help people, you know, with their goals, or just just remind themselves to be kind to themselves. But sometimes it feels like this, this issue of I can tell other people to do it, but I can't stick to it myself, which we all know is hard. You know, it's hard to, to take your own advice sometimes. But I think one thing I'm actively working on is, as Lisa mentioned at the beginning of this conversation, make a safe space in your mind, be kind to yourself, forgive yourself, have your own standards. There's no one keeping score. I think that's an important thing to remember. And that score is so subjective, it means nothing. And I think I used to put so much of my worth into my grades and being an want to be an overachiever. And I want to do this. Now, as someone who's graduating, I look back at my university life, and I'm just like thinking of, you know, the friends I made, thinking of the articles I wrote that I was really passionate about, or things that I did at Hart House, or things that I did with my student union. All these communities that I've been a part of that have made me feel fulfilled and made me feel like wow, like, I'm enjoying this. I'm feeling really passionate about this. So you create your own standard, right? And I think baby steps, right? Being self-critical is not something you can take away, just at once. But, you know, it's, um, be kind to yourself, I think is a, it's a simple but very important phrase. And, you know, when you internalize it, really reflect. Journaling is a good way for me to do that. I think back like, at the end of the day, I will question my own self. Question my thoughts, right? So I'll be like, Oh, I feel like really bad today because I got this mark, or I said something that I didn't mean that came across badly to other people. And I really have to critically reflect, you know, is this a big deal? Is this person still thinking about it 'cause I'm still thinking about it? Um, and is this something that has been that I've grown up with, or something that other people are telling you, this is what I genuinely, truly think. And when you clear out those thoughts, you can find the answers pretty simple. And reminding yourself that problems have solutions, right? And whatever, no matter what you do in your life, whatever mistakes, quote unquote, that you make, there are ways to solve it, ways to make your situation better, or ways to make what you're going through better. And, and I truly believe that things pass. And it's important to not be critical with yourself of like, don't feel that shame or embarrassment, 'cause you didn't handle things as good as you thought you would at that time, 'cause you didn't know as much during that time. So as Lisa said in the beginning, make it a safe space, because this world is full of people who want to plant seeds in you, seeds of doubt in you, of, you know, you're not good enough or you're not worthy, or you don't look this good or you don't act this good. But have your own standard. Right. I think it's a necessary reminder.

Sarah B. Zaman

I wholeheartedly agree with that. And, I think, definitely relate as a student, it's hard. It's hard, especially because things... people are trying so hard to make things as quote unquote normal they can be, and a part of that is like being productive and going to class and getting good grades and whatnot, but it's not the same. And I think it takes a lot of time to kind of compartmentalize and really conceptualize that and implement it into your life. And something Lisa said was, if you spend all of your time shaming and hating yourself, I think you said you can't become the person you want to be. I'm going to put my own little Sarah flair on that, and say, if you spend all your time and energy shaming and hating yourself, there's no time left to love yourself.

Janine

Wow, we need a round of applause for that.

Sarah B. Zaman

If you said - yeah, girl, give me snaps, please, yes, profound! No, but it's serious. And I think that's definitely something that I've had to-to learn when it comes to dealing with shame. And I think, on the flip side, what I had to unlearn about shame is sometimes you really need to sit down and think, is it really that deep? And then you realize, girl, it's not that deep. Like that person commenting on your Instagram photos, saying those bad things about the way you look or whatever. It's not that deep, delete the message and move on with your life. Like, I think that's definitely something I've unlearned is that things can only affect you if you let them affect you. And obviously, way easier said than done. And it's definitely, like, taken me like, I'm obviously not, like, I'm not even there yet. Like I'm slowly working towards it, and I think what both Lisa and Janine had said about, all the very articulate profound things that the both of you have said, throughout this, this talk, I think, have definitely given me ways to articularly describe all the feelings that I've been feeling. And I think, definitely take all that into account when I'm thinking about shame and insecurity and how I deal with that. So I just want to thank you both for for like teaching me so much more about it. Like I've never had a sit-down conversation about it, it's like, this is great. You should all do, like everyone should do this with their friends on a Friday night. Like, like talk about shame, it's talking about, talk about your deepest fears or shame, I think, great Friday night activity.

Janine

I think I've unlearned that being productive, is not, does not determine your worth. In the past year, being at home, it's so easy to blame yourself, you know, for not doing everything you want to do at the same time. And I think I think you can both relate to it as students, you feel like you have to be productive all the time, like a machine. And I feel, felt the shame of I'm not doing enough, I'm not doing enough. I am sitting at home all day, I have to be doing this, this, this and this, I have to be in a million clubs, I have to, you know, have a million internships, and I have to work and I have to do this, this, this, and this. And you feel a sense of shame, but really in the end? No, it's okay, if no one was productive this year. It's been a hard year, you know?

Lisa

Yeah. For me, I think, sort of what Sarah said, I don't think I've fully unlearned, I'm still in the process of unlearning. But what I would say is something that I'm working on is realizing that, at least for me, one of the best ways to deal with it when I feel shame, is so like I had said earlier to shut it down, but also to figure out what it is about that situation that I'm feeling shameful about. Decide whether or not, like you said, if it's even a big deal, if it's even valid. And, if I do find something about it, find that it's something about myself that I don't like, I make a game plan as to how to fix it. So, if I find that I don't like that, I don't know, maybe I sleep too much. Then I'm like, why? Why do I sleep too much? And how can I stop? Or, I self sabotage. Why do I do this? And how can I stop? And I find that sort of having a mindset of getting rid of the trash if it's not valid. And then if it is a valid concern about that I have about myself, how do I improve or get better? That makes me...that leaves less time for me to focus on hating myself and more time to focus on becoming who I want to be.

Janine

I have chills from that. That's... that's so important. And I... you're right, becoming who we're supposed to be and also being in the present. You know, like when something's said to us, or we feel something in a certain situation, that moment's gone, and it's... I think we forget, and I am totally one of those people that really doesn't live in the moment sometimes because I keep reliving that moment of embarrassment, of anger, of shame. Like, it just plays in my head over and over again, I'm wasting precious time, like you said, becoming the person I want to be. Particularly for me, the woman I want to be, and what I want to, what that means for me, and I just appreciate you both so much today. This has been so wonderful. I just want to kind of open up the floor for any, you know, closing remarks, and let everyone know how they can follow you after this episode, and tell us about some upcoming projects.

Sarah B. Zaman

I'll go first, Lisa and I are, like, gesturing at each other "Go, go go!" Um, some closing remarks, ideas, I think-I think you can have, something interesting that just popped into my head as both of you were, kind of, wrapping things up was, to some degree, I think, not all shame needs to be unlearned. And that is, in itself a whole different, that's a whole different podcast episode, need us back here sometime soon to talk about the importance of shame. Because I think shame, to some degree, has kept people in check. I think there's some things that you should be ashamed about, but I digress. But I think all in all, I am just so grateful to have had the opportunity to speak to such lovely, intelligent women about this topic. This topic that is so important, and I think definitely impacts so many people, but like, it seems as though it's always something that's like gnawing at you on the inside. So it was really nice, just bring it to the forefront and be like, "Hey, this is something that we all feel. Let's talk about it. How do we deal with it? How does it make us feel?" and so on and so forth. So thank you for involving me in this chat, I loved chatting with you all, love to be a part of anything and everything. What else did you say? Oh, yes. How to help people can follow me, ooh. Um, you can follow me on Instagram at Sarah B. Zaman, S-a-r-a-h-b-z-a-m-a-n. That's my Instagram. Do I have any other platforms? I don't think so. LinkedIn, oh my god. Follow me on LinkedIn, I love LinkedIn. We're always here for good networking up! Some projects that I'm working on. To be quite honest, it's been, obviously, very difficult to do projects. But if I, I write an advice column for a magazine, so link in bio on Instagram! Ugh, I feel so dirty, trying to like plug me in like, projects. And the magazine is Addicted Magazine, It's a lovely magazine based in Toronto. And follow me on that, submit questions, I'm your gal for all your advice needs. I may have some stand up shows coming up. The column is called Sarah's Two Sense, but it's like s-e-n-s-e, Ithink that's how you spell it, I am illiterate. So definitely read up on that, send insome questions, would love to hear from all of you. Might have some stand up shows coming up soon, if you want a decent chuckle. Like, follow me on Instagram. I'll post all my updates there.

Janine

What about you, Lisa? I have to say just you know, before Lisa goes, that Lisa and I co- produced this episode, and Lisa is phenomenal. And this was her first episode on our podcast. Um, so you're gonna be hearing a lot more of her in the future.

Lisa

Thanks, Janine. Yeah, I guess closing remarks for me. Sort of to just to echo what you said, Sarah, I think it was really a brilliant, like deeply affirming experience, to talk about shame. And sort of just like, know, not that I did it know, but to be reminded that it's a thing that we all experience. And I'm not alone in that feeling. And then also to hear how you both, sort of, deal with it and what you've learned about it. There's definitely a lot of things that I'm going to take and try to implement in my life. So this was awesome, thanks, Janine. And then in terms of where you can find me, you can find me on Instagram at Lisa Star 1242, l-i-s-a-s-t-a-r 1242. Upcoming projects...I do photography, and I'm working on, sort of, building a portfolio, and turning that into an Instagram account. So if you follow my personal you will find out when the photography account gets launched. And then I'm also working on a podcast of my own. And that's in the works. So once again, follow me on Instagram for all the updates on like what I'm doing. But yeah, that's it for me.

Janine

For me, I just want to say I am so lucky to have had this wonderful conversation with you both. I think it was really healing for me and was also really informative. I think I am in awe of how strong you both are when dealing with shame, and how resilient you are. But at the same time, the way that you, you know, turn it into humor, and the way that you take these experiences and make it part of your narrative and part of your story in a way that helps other people, like you said Sarah, people that come to your show and see this, and Lisa, with your podcast. I can't wait to see the projects that you work on and seeing your photography as well. And, and the way that you guys take these rich experiences and make it your own. And I'm really inspired by you both. And I'm really excited to see what's coming in the future. For me, to all our listeners, I just want to say that, you know, shame is a really pervasive thing. And I'd encourage you to think about your own relationship with it because it might be affecting you in ways that you don't know. And you know, what you think of yourself is always the most important. So I just want to add a gentle reminder there. Be kind to yourself. And yeah, thank you both. I think we all need, like, a round of applause. So I guess everyone can unmute, and we can just, you know,

Lisa

Snaps all around.

Sarah B. Zaman

That was great.

Lisa

Thank you.

Sarah B. Zaman

I thoroughly enjoyed that. That's fine. Y'all are fun to talk to.

Janine

Thank you so much, everyone. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the West meeting room on CIUT 89.5 fm.

Lisa

We hope you were able to find something that resonates with you or something that you can take away and mull over for the next week.

Janine

We're here every Saturday at 7am and you can find us on our Hart House stories page on SoundCloud. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Instagram @harthousestories and Twitter @hhpodcasting. Thank you so much for listening. Take care of yourself and we'll be with you next week.

#thewestmeetingroom harthouse shame self-care

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

Text

Ep. 51 – Time Is On The Line: A Conversation with Cola H.

Broadcast Feb. 27, 2021 • 57:36

SPEAKERS

Cola H., Braeden, Marco

[Intro music – “Best Intentions” by Vic Adamo]

Marco

Peace, everyone. This is Marco Adamovic aka Vic Adamo and this is a Hart House Hip Hop Education Takeover of The West Meeting Room broadcasting live on CIUT 89.5 FM. We're on Dish with One Spoon Territory in Tkaronto and grateful for the opportunity to be here. Working with our campus partners and community Hip Hop practitioners, Hart House Hip Hop Education supports values of representation, collaboration, and social justice, as we explore the key principles of Hip Hop and its importance in our everyday culture. Google Hart House Hip Hop Education to learn more. Our first podcast led us to the homie Colanthony Humphrey aka Cola. H. Cola draws outside the lines and paints his own path in music and in business. The Toronto-based multi-instrumentalist, producer and songwriter enjoys the abnormal and adds his own color to punk rock as the drummer of the OBGMs, touring exclusively as the drummer for Sonreal, and Hip Hop collaborations with Clairmont the Second and DijahSB. We talked about how he got into music, connections between Hip Hop and Punk, the Oooh Baby Gimme Mores in 2020, who he's become by the risks he has taken, some of the best and worst advice he's heard in the industry, and a whole lot more. We also put together a Cola H. playlist from the tracks he dropped in our conversation, so make sure to go check that out on Spotify. And without further ado, let's get into my conversation with trailblazer, role redefiner and master collaborator Cola H.

Marco

I am joined by the one, the only Colanthony Humphrey aka Cola H., aka world conqueror, aka

airport loiterer, game spitter, show killer. Is there anything you don't do my man?

Cola H.

Man, I don't sleep properly anymore.

Marco

Okay, well, that makes sense. Welcome, man. Welcome to the podcast. We're blessed to have

you. How are you doing?

Cola H.

You know what? I'm doing, I'm doing good. I've had a good start in the morning. Started out,

you know, kissing my baby, of course, having a little coffee, and speaking to my therapist, and

now I'm speaking to you. This is great.

Marco

That's amazing, man. Yeah, ya know, I always I always love the chance to chat with you, man

for so many reasons. First of all, I want to say congrats on the Outsah tape man, you dropped

just yesterday.

Cola H.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

Marco

Can you tell us a little bit about the tape and what the past 24 hours has been like, since you

released it?

Cola H.

Oh, for sure. Um, so Outsah is a song like Outsah, like, just the spelling of it's supposed to be

outside. But it's kind of like a little bit more of a slang to it. Joey always used to say that to us,

like when we, he would be outside of the studio because you've got to be let in if you don't have the key, right. And the whole meet me outside comment, like the whole meet me outside, you know, catch these hands outside, like for anybody that's trying to overstep. That's one of the songs that Denz wrote. Like, in fact, I'd probably say one of the yeah, one of the first songs that he wrote for the album, The Ends. And, yeah, since making it we've like, since being in the

band, basically, we've always had a little, we've had, I mean, our roots are in Hip Hop, but we

just happened to make a punk rock band. And we wanted remixes to it, so the boys asked me to help chop it up and put it together. So I produced both of those remixes. And we asked, we

asked the homies Oxymorons. They're from New York, to hop on. And they were also

putting feelers out. And we got Femdot from Chicago. What we really wanted to do was we

wanted to unite city to city, like, you know what I mean. Let you know you could catch hands

anywhere, you know. And it didn't happen, but it didn't happen in the way we tried to make it

happen. But it's all good. You know, Chicago, New York, and what like, you know what I mean? Chicago, New York, and Toronto, like are represented. And we got my little brother Clairmont the Second on the remix with Femdot as well. So, yeah, it just feels good to collab with artists that you respect and that you dig. So especially when it comes out like this tape, you know?

Marco

I want to start at the beginning with you and I want like, I want to understand how you came to

music, when you started making music, and if you can just kind of take us back and let us

know kind of how you started your journey.

Cola H.

Alright, no doubt. Uh well long long ago - No I’m just joking. But my dad is a musician, and we

grew up in the church, like most Black families, especially here in Toronto, or like pretty much

anywhere in the States. So I grew up watching my dad sing and play piano and be, you know,

the choir director. And I remember, I must have been like three or four years old, and I hopped

on the drums, because I saw drummers before that and I was like, I know I can do that. And lo

and behold, I did it. My dad bought me a kiddie drum set, and I never looked back. And I've

been involved with music ever since. Mainly, you know, my formative years, I was playing in

church all the way up until like, I'd probably say, last year before the pandemic, I was playing in

church, whether it be drums or keys, which I learned a lot later in my teens. But that's how I

started my musical journey. My first paid gig that ever came to me, I was I was working at a

community health center. But my boss at the time, La Bomba, Paula Gonzalez, she was

throwing a show because she's actually known as a not only a graffiti writer, but as a bassist.

And she needed to put a band together. And she hired me and Denz for keyboards and

guitars, and that was our first paid gig ever. And I think I was, I think I was maybe 15 years old.

Yeah. And that's, that was my intro into like, being a professional musician.

Marco

So first of all, you and Denz go way back.

Cola H.

Oh, yeah.

Marco

Denz is a co-founder, right? You guys are co-founders of the OBGMs?

Cola H.

Yeah, I’d even credit him even more so than that. Like I basically say, it's the brainchild. Like

The Oooh Baby Gimme Mores, The OBGMs, that's the brainchild of Denz's. And I was right

there. Originally, we were trying to be like The Neptunes, right, like a production duo. But

we wanted to do something different. Because at that time, everybody and their mom was

rapping, like, you know, like its, like grandmas are rapping and this person rapping and that

person rapping. And like I'll even go as far as to say as we were still elite, like in terms of skill in the rap world, in terms of the people that we were up against. But it was just kind of like, what's a better way to gain attention in that way - Like, you know, you know, what, what was the Neptunes? The Neptunes was a band. They were N.E.R.D.. And that's what we did, we created a band, we leaned a lot harder, like we leaned a lot more into the harder side. And yeah, me and Denz started out as a two piece.

Marco

How did you come to developing that rougher sound, that more distorted sound, that more

intense, aggressive sound?

Cola H.

Yeah, that's a great question. So I think it's a number of things. So Denz wanted to introduce

me to Rock and Roll. And at that time, like, you know, living in York Square, like in Toronto,

which was like, very, very hood at that point. Like, you know, and you’d kind of get jumped, like

really in any hood, like at that time, you would get jumped if you were listening to rock music,

right? Like, and I feel like the only acceptable ones were like Billy Talent and Nirvana with

Smells Like Teen Spirit. Those were the only like two bands that were kind of accepted in the

rap world at the time with the people that we were around. So anyway, you know, Denz was

listening to all this stuff. I'd say a deeper catalog of rock. Like, you know, he introduced me to

the Arctic Monkeys, which like, they were hard as fuck at the time, excuse my language. And

then like DFA 1979. And like, the whole reason I got into Hip Hop was because of the danger.

Right? So like, I just began to start leaning into like, you know, even harder stuff. Like, you

know, So for an example. You know, Nirvana's In Utero is like probably one of their biggest

albums. But I was into Bleach more, just because it sounded rougher around the edges - it

sounded more dangerous. Like it was you know - and danger is kind of like the reason why I

leaned so far into like punk rock and rap in the first place, right. Like, and that's probably due

to the fact that I was raised in the church, a relatively conservative family. Like maybe trying

to separate myself from that is exactly what got me into the danger in music in the first

place, you know.

Marco

Favourite track on Bleach?

Cola H.

Man, like probably No Recess, man. That shit is [sings Noooo Recess!] It's so good. It's so

good. But, but there's so, there's so many good ones right? Like, with Nirvana you kind of can't

miss. Like you can literally touch any track and people will completely understand why you love

it. You know what I mean? But that's, that's probably my favorite track. Like, without a doubt I

was singing it just in the car the other day. I was blasting my stereo to 100 like, Oh, it's a mess

when I’m in my car, just enjoying tunes. Yeah, man

Marco

You know, I've seen you. I've seen you guys live a number of times. I remember actually the

first I saw you live was a, I forget, it was a bar on college. And that was when I

first saw the infamous mosh pit that y'all used to fuck with.

Cola H.

Yeah.

Marco

Where Denz would just take both sides and throw them together in this mosh pit. And I was struck by the energy that you had. And, you know, listening to The Ends, I'm also seeing a lot, lot of, well you guys say, you know, it’s Nirvana shit, it’s Jimi Hendrix shit, right? And it seems like you guys leaned into that a little bit more for The Ends, which dropped last year 2020. Y'all did a live stream from Horseshoe which was dope af.

Cola H.

Thank you. Thank you.

Marco

Yeah, it was. And especially at a time in the pandemic, right. Like, just walk us through the

process of like, how you came up with it, what it means to you. And obviously, it was

received, like it made a huge splash. So yeah, just walk us through The Ends man.

Cola H.

Well, The Ends has a number of different concepts. Like, I'd say a lot of them are probably like,

emotional anger. Like, you know - so The Ends, like, the end of bad relationships. The end of

not putting music out for a number of years since our last release. Like the end of like, you

know, people trying to walk all over us. The end of like, it's a number of those very, very, very different things, right? Like, that's why it's called The Ends. And The Ends, like, if you look at the back cover of the vinyl, or the front cover of the Outsah tape, right? That's where the OBGMs was started - in The Ends, that that building that’s atop like, that's where those are, The Ends. Those are The Ends that we’re from. Like, so it's a number of different concepts rolled up into one. The process of creating The Ends, I would say it took years, and it took years for a number of reasons. A lot of those lean on Denz and that's not blame. He went through what any artist goes through. Denz, like, a lot of times, because our art is on display, essentially what you're doing is you're leaving yourself on display. There's a reason why lyrics to a song gets used in court and scripts to a movie doesn’t right? When you're an artist, you bare your soul, essentially. It's your pulpit. But anyway, when you bare your soul, and it's not received in the way that you want people to receive it, like, you know, especially when you've been gunning as long as – I feel like we've been making music together for like 18 years. And I feel like the band has been together for about like - me and Denz - like this band's Inception was what 2008 / 2009. So we're in our 12th and a half year. Like, you know, and when you've been gunning for that long, and people like - you're not famous yet, like or maybe not even fame - but you're not respected yet. Like, you want to step away from it because you're just like, am I even writing good songs? Right? So Denz needed that time and I, you know what, after speaking countless

conversations about it with him, like I understand. I understand that he needed that time. That

time is very, very valuable. And then when he was back, we are back writing and we got

Dave Schiffman involved who's behind like countless records that the world knows. I feel

like he did like three or four of the Bronx’s records. Alanis Morissette, like a lot of

people don't even know that he worked on Jagged Little Pill and like, you know, Haim. Like, It

spans all across the board. And he's from the school of Rick Rubin you know, which

immediately perked up my ears for a number of reasons, right. Like the same guy who's behind Beastie Boys and LL Cool J at the same time, like will absolutely be able to understand us, right. Like especially if you’re from that school. So we got Schiffman on board, and he came here and we recorded for about a month, a month and a half, and we got The Ends.

Marco

You dropped your first, your first EP was Interchorus back in 2009. And that was just you and

Denz, which I, which I remember actually, I actually I have the physical CD of that.

Cola H.

Wow!

Marco

It's all love man. And I was listening, obviously listening to all the records just kind of, you know, in advance of chatting with you and I think fundamentally like, there are certain things that have changed. But the fundamental sound still sort of stays there, like the grime, the danger. The only difference, I think, and you also on each album, you kind of you went from two members to four members to now down to three. And you know, you're mentioning all this sort

of change, the changes and different ways that the band has sort of has ebbed and flowed. So it sounds like the essence is still there.

Cola H.

Yeah.

Marco

But with The Ends, y’all just like, you're just unapologetic.

Cola H.

Yeah.

Marco

At this point, you are unapologetic. And I think it comes through in a big, big way. What about

this current three piece made it so that The Ends made this kind of a splash and impact in this

unapologetic way?

Cola H.

Well, I think after a while, and this solely comes with time. With time, you begin to realize that

you can spend time trying to get the attention in different sort of ways, whether it's like

somebody's like, Oh, you gotta have this type of tune, or you gotta have that type of tune. And

then I don't know, somewhere along the line you turn 30. And then you're kind of just like, yo, I

don't care what anybody says, like this is how it's going down. And this is what we're going to

do. Now, even with like the writing, I can't ever say that in the writing process certain things

have solidified, because, like, as a writer of music, I feel like that process is always going to

change. Maybe the one thing that solidifies now is the fact that we never - at least, I mean, it

remains to be seen - but I don't ever want to go a year without, I don't ever want to go a month

without writing a song. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, we could probably talk about this

later, but like leaving a corporate job solely to work on music alone, right. The professional

doesn't have the time to be like, uh, you know, I'm not really feeling the vibe right now. It's like,

when you have to crank out work, you got to crank it out. Because like, your time is on the line,

money is on the line - even more so time, time is on the line. And when time is on the line, you can't sit down. And when you work for yourself, you cannot sit down. So when it comes down to that, like I think that's probably the only thing that has solidified. And to speak to going from two members to four members to three, the big change in that is - so we split amicably, like when we went from four to three, like we still got love for Jem. It's just that Jem’s sensibilities lean more towards the pop side. And that doesn't really benefit the sound of The OGBMs. So, it was an amicable split. Te's still doing crazy, wicked stuff. Like he releases his own solo music. And he was touring with Zaki Ibrahim before the pandemic. So it's just like, yeah, we still got nothing but love for him. And to come back to The OBGMs. When things go from four to three, like, the less numbers, the easier it is to crank out because you don't have to go through a number of people to sort of, you know what I mean, complete a song. Right? Whether it's an idea that somebody likes or somebody doesn't like or whatever.

Marco

Yeah, for sure. I want to get into the transition from full time work to full time musician for a

number of reasons. But I want to, I want to stay a bit on The Ends,

particularly because you dropped The Ends in 2020.

Cola H.

Yes.

Marco

And there was a lot going on in 2020. I would call it you know, I mean, sort of more of a global

racial reckoning. Right? And I think you also dropped a new podcast. Shout out OBGMs Band

Practice.

Cola H.

Oh, thank you so much.

Marco

And So the one thing I want to talk about is the - what you call lazy comparisons - that the

industry is making when it comes to The OBGMs and to The Ends. You've been called, you’ve

been called Bad Brains. And I know you've shared the stage with Bad Brains and your sound

couldn't be any different.

Cola H.

Yeah, exactly.

Marco

So do you want to talk to us a little bit about, about what that's been like, and what insights

you've had as a result of that?

Cola H.

Um, so, yeah, it's, it's really, really tough to be, you know, a person of color in - how do I

construct this best - it's really, really tough to be Black in a majority white space that is not

ready to see, like what we do. And when they're not ready to see what we do, they instantly try

to make comparisons to other Black people. And, you know, I can't blame, you know, a casual

fan for not having the breadth of knowledge, or even the catalogue of knowledge like to

be able to compare us properly, right? I realize what we do is extremely different than what a

lot of other people do. And because of that, like, they're just trying to look for something. And we do this just commonly with a bunch of things. Like, you know, we try to make comparisons to things that we recognize so that we're able to categorize them. So that when we refer to other

people, we can, like, we know what to expect. The problem with it being journalists is you

are paid to analyze, right? You are paid to analyze, and if it's music, you're paid to analyze the

sound, right? If it's how we look like, I mean, the only comparison that we have with Living

Colour, and that we have with Bad Brains is that we're Black. Soundwise, like the fact that we

do Rock like or are in the Rock space is the only comparison that you can make. If you listen

to the music and all you can pull is Bad Brains, then that means you haven't listened to it. So

that's the problem that we have. It does, it still makes it hard, right?

Marco

What inspires you in the current moment that we're in, because I know, for example, you've

you know, the launch of The Ends, you've been hosting a lot of conversations with other

artists. You know, Denz has been doing a lot of work on hosting conversations with artists

around issues of race, around issues of social justice. And what are you finding that is inspiring

in this moment, even though that there's a lot of work still to do?

Cola H.

I think what's inspiring is the fact that I think with everybody being home, people are finally

willing to listen. For a long time, I mean, there's this great joke where it's just like, have you

heard? Like, the police are beating up Black people again. I don't know if you've paid attention

in the past 400 years to the news! Like, you know what I mean? But it just feels like within the

last year with like George Floyd and all that, like, it feels like people are finally willing to admit

that there's a problem, and that it's a big problem. And it's a problem that has existed forever.

I'd say that's inspiring. The fact that people are willing to talk. And this goes beyond just, you

know, violence against communities of color. Like it's right up to tolerance, right? Like, I mean,

it feels only yesterday that like, you know, the amount of of slurs that we would throw around,

like, you know, pertaining to different communities, that that was acceptable. And now it's not

acceptable, right? The fact that in this day and age, where even like what's known as the

casting couch mentality is being destroyed. Change is what's inspiring, right? Like, all

these different things like the you know, the Me Too movement that's inspiring all these

different things that are inspiring. It shows that like, you know, life can change for the

better. That's what's inspiring me the most. I wouldn't think that it would be any different for

Denz or Joe.

Marco

The words, you know, in that context, music is so much more important, because you

mentioned that you're putting yourself out there and you can't separate yourself. And you can't

separate the music from who you are in that instance. And I think that's another strong

connection that exists within something like The OBGMs and specifically, you know, with you

having this background and medium of both Hip Hop and punk. And so you've got these

sort of two critical forms of expression. What do those two genres or words mean to you in the

context of music being more than just entertainment?

Cola H.

It meant, like, culture. Like, I mean, we say subculture like for these things, but it's culture. Like

these are the driving forces of culture, right? And even at that, like, I feel like, at least now, as

I'm growing older, I'm realizing that it means so much more than just these two words. Like Hip

Hop is more than just like, you know, graffiti, and breakdancing, and MCing. Like, it's, it's a way

of life, right? It's like, I don't walk around saying like, Oh, this is so Hip Hop like as much as I do, like saying, yo, this is punk rock as fuck. But it's just like, it becomes a way of life, like the way how you approach certain things, right? I feel like that's what those things mean to me, right? Like going completely DIY is so punk rock. Right? Not taking no for an answer, being completely in your face is so Hip Hop. Like, it becomes the way that you breathe, the way that you walk, the way that you talk, the way you consume information, the way you exert information, right, the way you express yourself. That's what those two words have meant, and like, continue to mean and it continues to evolve as like both those genres, both of those ways of life evolve. And as my mind continues to evolve, you know.

Marco

Facts, man, facts. So, you know, there's a piece there on risk that I think, you know,

putting yourself out there, but also everything that's wrapped up in both of those. I mean, to call

them genres is to really simplify what they mean. But when you're embodying something like

that in such a way, you're taking a risk. And so I want to go back to the risk that you took when

you jumped from full-time work to full-time musician and, you know, maybe some

insights that you could offer, you know, folks listening or things that you look back on and

you're like, I'm so glad that I did this. Or just the process of learning and learning more about

yourself as you took that risk.

Cola H.

Yeah, definitely, um, the risk. So I'll never forget it. So while I was at my desk working, I got

two offers. So first of all, I just started managing my baby brother, right? Well, he's not a baby

anymore.

Marco

Shout out Clairmont the Second.

Cola H.

Yeah, Clairmont the Second, shout out to Clairmont the Second. He's not a baby anymore. He's a full grown adult now. But at the time, he was still in his teens. And we had gotten offered, we had gotten offered a publishing deal for him. And because I was sending through my own music to this publishing company, I had gotten offered a publishing deal as well. And then not only that, but at the time the band, The OBGMs, we were in talks with a record label. And things were looking very, very good. And, you know, I was speaking to my dad, and then, you know, I had some time to think. And I said, you know what, I think if there was ever a time to make a jump, if God is telling me to jump now, it's right now. So I jumped. And I handed in my two-week resignation. And I went to work on the last day of work. I went in on a Monday, which people wouldn't normally do. But I said I'm working on the 15th. That's what it's gonna be. And I was going to be proposing to my wife on the Wednesday. All in the same day, when I got home, the publishing deal fell through because there was miscommunication, which turned into a little bit of a back and forth. So, both publishing deals fell through. And the record deal fell through all on the same day, on the Monday. And on the Wednesday, I was proposing to my wife, and my now wife, and you know, at first I was a little scared. I was like, oh, what did I just do? And I went, and I spoke to a mentor of mine. And you know, he basically said, you know what, give

it a year and a half. And if you come out, and you don't have money or like, you know, the

biggest loss that you can have is going back to work and say, man, that was a crazy, it was a

crazy, like year and a half that I had. Or you can be me. And him, at the time, like, if you see his production credits, biggest pop stars in the world. I'm not even gonna mention them. But it's just like biggest pop stars in the world. So that's the advice I rolled with. And two weeks after I

proposed to my wife, she said yes, obviously. And I was in an event. I was sitting

down, like looking at this film. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna be okay. And here I am, I'm okay. And I'm still doing my thing, even in the midst of the pandemic. I'm a full-time artist. You know? Sometimes you just got to take the risk. It's never going to happen the way you want it to happen. I think that's the biggest takeaway that I've had from this whole process. It won't happen exactly how you see it, but it can still happen if you're motivated to push it

towards happening. So here I am - Professional Artist.

Marco

No doubt man, no doubt. And yeah, kudos to you man for pushing through.

Cola H.

Thank you.

Marco

In terms of, you know, the entertainment industry, the music industry. I want to float this, float

this question to you - What's the best piece of advice you've heard someone either give you or

give someone else? And what's the worst piece of advice you've heard someone give you or

somebody else?

Cola H.

The best piece of advice that I've ever been given was at the start, from that same mentor that I

was just telling you about. He said, you know, I had sat with him a week after like, you know, a

week after I quit. And I was just like, look man, I want to figure this out. He's like here's what

you need to know: nobody in this industry knows what they're talking about. We're not talking

about like administrative like duties and stuff like that. We're talking about what's hot and

what's not. Right? The executives, they'll try to convince you that they know everything. The

record labels will try to convince you that they know everything. They know what's hot. They

know how to make a record pop. They know what's poppin’ in the streets. The truth is, is that

they don't know. They have a formula. And that's what they're concerned in making big. Nobody saw, like at the height of his popularity, no one saw Tekashi 6ix9ine coming, right. I mean like, and I'm not promoting Tekashi 6ix9ine when I say it, but they didn't see it coming. No one saw

XXXTentacion coming, you know. And even right on top of it, no one saw Chance the Rapper

when he was at his height of heights, coming. And like look what they all did. They all changed

the game in some sort of way. And like, that's, that's just the reality. But record execs, industry

professionals, including myself, will try to convince you that they know. And they don't. That's

the best piece of advice I got. The worst piece of advice that I've heard was actually just

recently. An artist manager was talking to a panel. And you know, I don't want to smack them

down too much. But basically, what they said was sometimes you just want people to listen to

you and you want them to like be wearing your merch, right? So if you have to buy a shirt at $10 and sell it at $12 and you make a $2 profit, just do it. I personally think that's horrible advice. And the reason why I think it's horrible advice is because artists have been taught to demean their price and undervalue themselves in order to get seen for so long. And I think when it comes to the music business, you do not get successful by undervaluing your product. You want people to take you serious. There's a reason that when Nipsey Hussle was selling his album for I think it was either $100 or $1,000 a piece. There's a reason he sold out. It was

beyond good music. It was, it was the fact that he valued himself that much more. And I feel like it's a, it's in bad practice to teach artists to undervalue themselves to get a little bit further. Like to be real with you, and I don't want to get too far into this, but that's exactly why the casting couch mentality exists. Like it comes from undervaluing yourself, your person. Anytime you undervalue yourself, you will fall for the banana in the tailpipe. Like you will fall for the things that will eventually slow you down, for the things that will make you feel dirty about yourself. That's what's gonna happen, right? So you don't ever want to undervalue your craft. The thing that you think that you're better than others at, the thing that makes you you, if you ever shortchange that you will shortchange yourself all your life. Or you might get what you want. But you will always feel that and you won't be able to sleep at night. You know what I mean? And that's just how I feel about that.

Marco

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

Cola H.

You'll fall for anything, and how many people do we know have fallen for things that they

shouldn't have fallen for? It's countless, you know what I mean? And it's just like, we need

artists to value themselves otherwise, like, you know what I mean, everybody will be

undervaluing themselves. And it's just not worth it.

Marco

Facts, man. One question I have is around communities and being a part of a community.

Because I know, you know, particularly West End. I know you've been, you've been repping

West End since before it was cool to rep West End of Toronto.

Cola H.

Yep. Very, for a very long time. Yep.

Marco

And I know, you know, and you seem to, you seem to drop features that no one’s expecting and then all sudden, it's like, oh shit, Cola is up on this too, right? So, talk to me - a couple of things: One is just the importance of community when it comes to, you know, culture, when it comes to working in creative spaces. And the other is this dynamic in Canada and in Canadian music about, you know, not whether it's more important, but you know, everyone says, you need to get out of Canada, to become successful. And so, you know, how, what do you make of that?

Cola H.

Right. Well, on the community aspect. A community that you love and that loves you will always prop you up no matter what. It's, it's just inevitable. They will always prop you up. And if they truly love you, they will tell you when you're sidestepping. They will tell you when something was wack, because the incentive is to get better. Right? So for like, for the West End, right - so I grew up at Keele and Eglinton, York Square, right - We used to have rap battles all the time. And like those rap battles, it wasn't something where we were fighting each other. It was something like, yo if we really, really want to do this, we gotta be better than the next person. So I gotta be better than you. And your incentive is to be better than me. And essentially - actually, that's how me and Denz met. We met through our sisters, right. And, and we met through beat battles, right. To the point where we partnered with each other and just worked on becoming better producers. But the incentive is to be better than each other but for the betterment of the both of us, right. So that's the importance of community. And if it's making you guys better, that's the importance. It's kind of weird now though. Like, I feel like people rep certain hoods or whatnot, and it's not necessarily a thing where they're trying to make each other better, right. It's more so they're trying to, you know, battle with each other in a negative way. But, I mean, that's for another story. Now, to come to your second question, which was going to the States in order to make it. I completely still wholeheartedly agree with that statement. Like, the reality is this. Like, I'll just use Clairmont, for example. Clairmont the Second is a Juno nominated, three times in a row Polaris prize long-listed, a Prism prize award-winning director. Like Clairmont has all these accolades. For the past year, Clairmont has been featured on multiple United States playlists. The majority of his plays come from the United States. The thing is, is that Canada is far too small and like there's not enough Hip Hop fans here, right? And the biggest music market in the world is the United States. Maybe you don't need to be big in the United States. Maybe it's somewhere in Europe. But in terms of Canada, there is just not enough people here. Like maybe, like you know, a popular act can be a million-dollar band here, maybe. But like, you know, two black guys and a half-Iranian half-Irish guy like being a million-dollar Canadian band, like only operating in Canada? I don't think that's very much so possible here.

Marco

So what is, I mean, what is Toronto's place in the modern music industry then? Because I

mean, there's a lot of, I mean, Toronto has blown up for the past 10 years, right?

Cola H.

Yeah, for sure.

Marco

And everyone wants to say that it's Drake, it's because of Drake. But, you know, anyone that,

anyone that's been paying attention knows that the foundations had been built for a long time.

What makes Toronto so unique in terms of the music that's coming out of the city?

Cola H.

I think, I think it's a lot of things. And I would absolutely argue the fact that it is because of

Drake, to be honest with you. And like I would argue that, and I feel like there's a number of

things here that make Toronto that great. Drake didn't need to rep us like on top of that. Like

Drake repped us and I think it's because he truly loves this city. And I think this city has

something to be jealous of. For the fact that there are so many first-generation kids here, so

many immigrant families here. Like I feel like it's, and it's from all different places, like in the

world, right. Majid Jordan like is another example. I feel like every single Black artist that you

see from this city that has gone on to do amazing things, like, none of their parents are

Canadian. They're all from somewhere else. So I feel like the mixing of all those different

cultures to bring up these kids who grew up, all in the, in the same place, I think that's what

makes Toronto like a great breeding ground for talent. I mean, all my friends, like so many

of my friends are like, they're all talented, all first-generation, and all have interesting lives

beyond just making music. And that's what makes the music that much better. You know what

I'm saying? I think that's what makes Toronto unique and special. And I think that's why Drake

loves it. I feel like that's why, like, once again, I think Drake is instrumental to the economy of

Toronto. Like, beyond music, but definitely, like, when he said, "Weston Road flows," All my

Weston people were like, yo, we're taxing everybody at Caribana. ‘Cuz they're gonna want

tours of Weston. Like, not just the strip, but just the whole entire Weston community. You know, I mean, we’re gonna be taxing people out here. Like, if they come out here trying to, you know what I mean? And nobody would have known about Weston. They wouldn't have known about Weston if Drake didn't say it on his records. You know, it's just a fact.

Marco

No, and it's a great point. I mean, you know, leveraging that platform to really put a spotlight on

specific areas, specific issues. I mean, I think there's a lot that, you know, your work with

OBGMs and Drake have in common. I mean, you're leveraging that culture to rep a city, to rep

just to rep period, right?

Cola H.

Absolutely.

Marco

In terms of who's in your ears right now, who do we need to be listening to?

Cola H.

So in terms of - it's a bunch of people, right. Like, I'm listening to a ton of music right now. Yves

Tumor is probably like - Heaven for a Tortured Mind. Great album. I encourage everybody to go

listen to that album. That album, like was probably one of my most played albums of the whole

year. I'm listening to anything that comes from DijahSB, another artist from here, Toronto.

Clairmont the Second of course. And shameless plug, The OBGMs. Everything that is The

OBGMs you need to be listening to that. Other than that, like I'm finding new music every day. I

just took in Illuminati Hotties’ latest album and they're doing some really really cool musical stuff

there. In terms of rap, 1TakeJay. I'm really really enjoying the off-the-beat-type rap flow, where

it's kind of like, and it's really, really popular in the West Coast. And I think 1TakeJay is from out

there. And, like, I really, really enjoy that. Like you're kind of on the beat, but you're kind of

really not on the beat at all. And there's something about it that's just so swaggy about it that I

really really dig. And as a drummer, too, right, being able to drum within the pocket but off the

click, like oh, there's something so sick about that. And who else. I really really like G Perico's

voice. I think he sounds almost like a modern day DJ Quik. Larry June is also another one. And like to be real with you, I've been listening to like a ton of 80s R&B funk. Like a ton. Like

S.O.S. band. Like S.O.S. Band is probably my favorite. But like Mtume is another one. Cherelle, Alexander O'Neal, anything that Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis have produced, I highly, highly

encourage everyone to go listen to it, because it's just filled with number ones, their entire

catalogue, Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. They're my favorite producers in the whole world. And I hope one day meet them.

Marco

Wicked man. What are two songs and one album that are forever part of your life soundtrack?

Cola H.

I'll start off by giving this album that I love. It's not a rock album, but it kinda is – Funkadelic,

Let's Take it to the Stage. When I was 16 years old, and Denz was trying to convince me to be

in a rock band. And I said, hell no. I stumbled upon this documentary on PBS. With them

playing, or it was a, it was a documentary about Parliament Funkadelic. And, like, you know,

they transitioned from being just like an R&B band to a funk band to like moving into rock and

roll. Let's Take it to the Stage was a pivotal album that basically said we're here to stay and

we're here, meshing these, these two things together. And that's an album I can't live without.

In terms of songs. Hmm. S.O.S. Band, Tell Me if you Still Care. It helped me discover the

softer side of who I was. Not everything is about like, you know, loudness and you know, trying

to be seen. Tell Me if you Still Care by S.O.S. Band, produced by Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis.

Yeah. And Pull Out by Death From Above 1979. It’s just completely, like, offensive, completely

loud. And just like, the type of energy that I was just like rolling with in my early college years,

which made me want to get even harder with this music shit.

Marco

And then in terms of other tracks, what in your own, in your own catalogue? So music that

you've worked on or been a part of, what are some of the most meaningful tracks to you?

Cola H.

Triggered by the OBGMs. Like, that's a meaningful song because it's hard. And it's everything

that when I wanted to get harder with music, like it's everything that I thought we would sound

like. That's one track in my catalog that I'm like yes. Another one would probably have to be

Clockout. It's the song with me and Clairmont on his last, on his latest album. I produced that

song, and like I got the second verse on it. It's just, it just shows like that both of us got lyrical

skill and can still bounce off of each other, and let it be a family affair and still be like, just a

complete banger. And lastly, I'd probably say New Money, which is like a solo track of mine.

Marco

Ooh, la la.

Cola H.

Yeah, Ooh La La. Yes. New Money. Like, there's not a bar in there that's not true. And it's just,

it feels like what Toronto feels like to me. You know, that's my Ode to Toronto.

Marco

So like a lot of artists have sort of said that 2020 was a year for strategizing because of the

impact on the the arts community. You were obviously busy AF. And so what are some final

thoughts on music in 2021 and sort of where we find ourselves globally? Locally? Like, you

know, obviously, you're going to be releasing some music. So that's exciting. Anything else

you want to share about? Just final thoughts on music and either 2021 or beyond?

Cola H.

Yeah. So like, I think if 2020 showed us anything, it's that the world can be shut down for a

multitude of reasons. And I think if you're taking this time to strategize, good. But if you're not

taking this time to, to actively still maintain attention, or learn a new skill, you will suffer when

the world does come back, if it ever comes back. I think people that are waiting - like it

showed, it showed us this. If you wait, you will wait. Like period. There's never going to be a

right time for anything. The right time is right now. Right? What are you doing right now?

What's happening right now? What are people watching right now? What are people doing

right now? If you do not add more skills to your arsenal, and if you are only waiting for the right

time, you'll die out. Like there's just no way that you'll survive in this day and age. Because like

the reality is like, I'm not sure our normal world comes back. I'm definitely not sure. And I know

that sounds bleak. But like, I mean we booked a few things for 2021. But the reality is, is like it’ll

probably get canceled, you know. And I think anyone that thinks live music is coming back in

2021 is not paying attention to the signs that things are going horribly wrong right now. So the

thing is, is like, how are you going to survive this rat race next? And it's - you know what it's not

by doing? Waiting. So don't wait. Right now is the time. That's my final thought.

Braeden

Could I ask one question?

Marco

Sure!

Cola H.

Oh, please.

Braeden

It seems like behind your work is this like really intricate fabric of relationships and you

collaborate with a lot of people. You have band members. You're in the music business with

your brother. You're in a marriage with someone. Like, these relationships have so many

layers and so much depth and complexity. And so I just wonder, like, what do you think is

essential in moving through those relationships and sustaining those relationships in a good

way?

Cola H.

I’ll say it like this. Communication is essential in moving forward in a relationship. But not only

communication, it's understanding what the relationship is. So when I say understanding the

relationship, relationships start for different reasons. And they usually end because somebody

broke code as to what the relationship was. Like, I feel like a lot of us don't understand

relationships to the extent that we should. Relationships are basically – they’re social contracts

as to how you interact with somebody. And the moment that changes, the relationship can

either change or end. And, like, I think as long as you understand like why it started, and how it

started, and you're willing to make it evolve through communication, of course. A relationship

can sustain the worst, like the absolute worst of what life has to offer. You know, and I think

that's why I've been able to roll with Denz for so long. That's why I'm in business with my

brother. That's why essentially, my wife is like, she's not just like - she describes herself as my

biggest fan. But I think she's way more than that. She's my business partner, like, just in life,

you know what I mean? Like, you know, you know, we're new parents, right. And like, even the

things that we introduce our child to, or even right down to how we communicate in front of her.

Like, maintaining a relationship, all that is key, like, so it's knowing why you got together and

and communicating so that the relationship can continue to flourish.

Braeden

I guess if I could follow up with something personal?

Cola H.

Of course. Please.

Braeden

Like, well, just, you know, being so - and I guess I'm asking from a place of being in a similar

context - like, when, when you're married to someone and you’re business partners, and you’re

co-parenting, and maybe you have, I don't know, creative sides, or creative work that

intersects. But then you're also in a domestic partnership, and also a romantic partnership. It's

like you're wearing all these different hats. And sometimes it's hard to know which hat you're,

you're speaking from, like, and they have competing interests. And so I'm just like wondering if, like, do you, have you sort of acquired, are you learning like a new language, or bringing in a new set of tools into like, I guess, learning the interplay between all those different hats you have to wear?

Cola H.

I think, I think what it is, is we’re learning a new set of tools. So marriage is not for everyone, I

completely believe that. And it's for me, and it’s for my partner, like it's for both of us. Like we

chose each other. And like, that's why we're still happy today. The reason why we love each

other is because we love each other for who we are, right? But the reason why it works so

well, is because the way we communicate. We know that we'll be able to grow together. So

whether it's being business partners, whether it's buying property together, whether it's raising

a family together, like you know what I mean? Whether it's, or even right down to who's gonna

do the dishes, and who's in the living room. Like, you know, all those things, those all just

become tools. They become assets that you use, like, in order to accomplish whatever you

need to accomplish. But the thing is, is like, they're just tools, but they add on to our

relationship. We know we can continue to grow together. And that's why we continue to grow

together.

Braeden

Thank you for sharing.

Cola H.

Oh, no problem. No problem. By the way, great questions. Completely unexpected, but really,

really dope.

Braeden

Yeah, well, like it kind of, you know, what made me think of it is when you mentioned Dave

Schiffman, like earlier in the conversation. Like, there's kind of, there's like these invisible

relationships that happen behind the scenes that no one else sees.

Cola H.

Mm hmm.

Braeden

And, and I'm just like, I'm interested in that aspect of just yeah, people's sort of like, the

intimate realms of people's lives that lead to the work you never really see.

Cola H.

Can I expand on that actually?

Braeden

Yeah.

Cola H.

Now that, now that we're talking about it, like, I feel like a lot of times, especially as artists,

because it's a lonely road, and because a lot of the times you find yourself alone. You find

yourself being extremely introspective. I feel like great artists are very introspective. You forget

that you need people. But like, even with everything that we're seeing in this in this world, like

happening right now, where it kind of seems like everyone's mad at each other, right? You

know, whether it be for political reasons, racial reasons, whether it be class reasons. But the

reality is this. We need each other, we all need each other. Like, even right down to me talking

shit, like people need people. We can't go it alone. Like, I mean, if we try to go it alone, or

without particular communities, our minds don't expand. And right now there's a fight to keep

things the same, or the fight to change things. And like, you know, there's two people leaning

on on two different sides. But really, if we came together, and you know, we work together

towards a common goal and that's like, advancing humanity, you know, we would be so much

further than we are right now. People don't value each other as much as they should. And that’s

where the big problems lie, you know?

Braeden

Yeah, I feel like trust is really the only currency.

Cola H.

It really really is. It really is. Trust me. Yeah.

Marco

That's awesome Braeden. Just a quick plug - everything OGBMs, everything Cola H.,

everything Clairmont the Second, OBGMs Band Practice wherever you get podcasts.

Cola H.

Yup Yup

Marco

Cola man, as always, it's a pleasure. We appreciate you and just wish you so much more

success and a brighter fire that burns in 2021.

Cola H.

Oh, my bro, thank you so much. I really really really really appreciate you guys having me. And

like yeah, I said before, Cola H. on everything just look up "dieforcola". So dieforcola.com,

@dieforcola on everything and that will lead you to Cola H. and that is me. Thank you for

having me.

Marco

Peace

Cola H.

Peace

[outro music plays]

Marco

That was my conversation with Colanthony Humphrey aka Cola H. You can check him out on

social media @dieforcola. I want to give a big shout out to Braeden Doane for her support in

producing today's episode. Look out for another Hart House Hip Hop Education takeover

coming soon. In the meantime, check us out at harthouse.ca. I'm Marco Adamovic. Peace.

#harthousehiphopeducation #colah thewestmeetingroom harthousestories

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

Text

Ep 41 Wasn’t It Lovely?

Broadcast Oct. 17, 2021 • 56:02

https://soundcloud.com/harthousestories/the-west-meeting-room-ep-41-wasnt-it-lovely

SPEAKERS:

Braeden, Sabahat, Saba, Nermeen

[The show opens with a 6 minute audio installation created by Phoebe Wang that was played on a loop inside a secret alcove she constructed as part of the Contellation’s Resonant Bodies exhibit at the Toronto Media Arts Building in in the summer of 2019. This secret hideout allowed the listener a private moment to sit on a carpeted floor and soak in this multi-track audio collage that weave in and out of music, crowded rooms, soundscapes, and intimate conversations that all tap into existential conflicts around belonging and the pursuit of living. This work prompted the following hour of radio and the audio portion of this piece can be found here:

https://www.constellationsaudio.com/sounds/resonantbodies/wang]

Braeden

The audio that we're listening to at the top of the show today is a piece titled "Isn't it lovely?" by multimedia artist Phoebe Wang. The first time I heard this piece, it was playing on a loop in a small triangular room that felt like the perfect teenage hideout. It was a secret room built into the corner of a gallery in the Toronto Media Arts Building. And it was one of many sound installations I experienced that day in the Resonant Bodies exhibit hosted by Constellations, which is a collective of artists that playfully experiment with sound and narrative. This exhibit completely transformed the way that I think about sound and space and story. And it was made all the more special by the people I was sharing those moments with. It's been over a year now since that exhibit, and I'm called back to the memories of that day, as I try to remember what it felt like to share an experience with friends all together in one space. That whole summer I worked alongside Sabahat, Nermeen and Saba. We would meet every week in this tiny room on the third floor of Hart House called the West Meeting Room. We laughed and cried, sometimes at the same time, as we held space for each other's stories. It's been such a lonely year. And the longing for connection and community just swallows me sometimes. There's a picture on my phone that bubbles up from the ether, and brings me back into this memory. The pictures is of my baby toddling her way into this secret doorway at the gallery. It's from this day, at the end of the summer, when the four of us, well, five of us, I guess if you include my baby, we all met up to go to a sound exhibit. Something we'd never done. And it was this perfect afternoon of togetherness and exploration and laughter. It's a memory that I treasure. It prompted me to reach out a few weeks ago. I called up Sabahat and Nermeen and Saba to reconnect and to laugh and to cry. And to try to insert this embodied feeling of togetherness into the remembering of that day. It's a feeling that's been missing for a long time now. You are listening to The West Meeting Room on CiUT 89.5 FM broadcasting from Hart House where we are taking up space on Dish with One Spoon Territory. I'm Braeden Doane. I'm hosting the show today and inviting all of you into my conversations with the people who helped daydream this weekly radio show onto the airwaves connecting across multiple time zones. You'll hear from Sabahat, Nermeen and Saba as we reminisce about our explorations of sound and story with one another. So stay tuned, get comfortable. And when we return, I'll give Saba a call and ask her about her memories of working together that magical summer.

Saba

[phone rings] Hello?

Braeden

Hi!

Saba

Hi!

Braeden

How are you?

Saba

I'm great. Thank you. How are you?

Braeden

I'm doing Okay. Um, yes, it's a bit, bit of a. You know, it's a juggling act.

Saba

Yeah, I completely understand.

Braeden

Yeah. Um, well, maybe. Are you okay, are you comfortable if I just if I just dive right in?

Saba

Yeah, definitely.

Braeden

Would you mind introducing yourself for our listeners?

Saba

Hi. I'm Saba, I am a storyteller. I love introducing myself that way because it's, it's very ambiguous and mysterious. And it kind of invites kind of questions because people ask, oh, like, what kind of stories do you tell? And yeah, I just, I am very honored to be on this call with you. Thanks so much for connecting with me, Braeden.

Braeden

Oh, of course. Well, could I ask, what kind of stories do you tell?

Saba

Yeah. I, honestly, I don't think there's one story that I tell. It's kind of unraveling, and it's constantly evolving. I tell stories of of love and connection. And it's kind of a process of, I got into storytelling to learn more about myself and my place in the world. And just, I kind of tell the stories that I would have loved to hear when I was younger, growing up and kind of lost and figuring things out. And I mean, I tell stories that always, they mean something to me, but also, they're like a point of connection with others. Like when they hear the stories, they can find themselves interwoven in the narrative. So that's a really ambiguous answer. But um, and it's constantly evolving, you know.

Braeden

Oh, that's beautiful. I love, Yeah, you tell stories of love and connection. That definitely, that really does speak to the stories that you tell. So I had a chance to talk, I called, a few weeks ago I called Sabahat. And we had this amazing conversation. And then the following week, we were able to bring Nermeen into that conversation. And so I was just piecing this together and, you know, you were like the other, you're like the missing link to the group. So I just, I'm just so grateful you're willing to add your voice to this. And, and just Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about our time together last summer, which feels like so, it just feels like years ago at this point. And something that we talked a lot about was thinking about the West Meeting Room as a space and sort of like the origins of that space that we sort of all created together last summer. And then sort of molding that into a vision of a radio show. And then, you know, here we are, like 40 some odd episodes later. So yeah, I just wanted to know, like, do you remember the first time you went to the West Meeting Room?

Saba

Yeah. Um, the first time I walked into the West Meeting Room, I was so excited and nervous and just, I had just recently been hired as a podcast producer for Hart House Stories, and I just, you know, I had kind of, I had briefly met all of you. You Braeden and and Tony and Sabrina at the Pride Pub. And then I was just honestly, I was so blown away by the energy and just the, I think the main thing I remember from just walking into that space was like all of the possibilities that this, that this job, this new job could hold for me because I, you know, I love stories. I've always loved stories, but the possibilities of telling stories through sound was still very novel to me, and I think I was just so I was just basking in all of the newness and just the novelty of it all and when I walked into that space for our first meeting, I think I was just, I just knew that this was the start of something so special for me. A really exciting chapter. And it's, it was also my first foray really into Hart House. It's such a big like building, it's so grand. I hadn't really explored all the nooks and crannies. And when I was trying to find the West Meeting Room actually I got lost, because it's just so hidden. It's like so, it feels almost separated from the rest of the building. It's like this, this very special kind of hidden gem in Hart House. And what I remember really vividly about the West Meeting Room and just being in that space with all of you and connecting with Sabahat and Nermeen, and everybody, it's just the laughter. I can never forget just how much fun we had in that space. And I'm sure we'll continue to have in that space. It's, it's, um, hopefully when we're all able to, to connect in that way again. But it's, um, yeah, I think, I like, I know, this is kind of unconventional, but I like the sound of people talking over each other. Like just that, like the chaos and the excitement and just it all, it makes me feel so warm. And that's what I remember from being in that space. It's the warmth, it's the connection, it's the, it's the love, it's the tenderness of just being in a space and surrounded by a group of people who are just so kind and compassionate. And we're kind of learning and growing together and how everything evolves so quickly. Like, it just, it reminded me of what the beauty of collaboration and just making things, creating things together. It made me feel so much less alone, because I think before then, the university in general, and because Hart House is like an extension of that university, even though it kind of has a life of its own. It's very much a part of that space and that institution. So before that I was so lonely. Navigating that space, I felt like I didn't belong. But walking into the West Meeting Room was my first point of real belonging in that space. And it's just so special. Sorry, I can go on forever. I just love. Yeah I just love it. I think it's really interesting because I never, this is the first time I think I'm actually fully reflecting on how everything has kind of shifted and evolved over the past, I guess it's well over a year now, that I first walked into that space. So thank you. And I want to thank you for forging this kind of like this reflection and connection about, Yeah.

Braeden

Thank you. Yeah, it's nice to connect in this way. And I think sort of in piecing together this show, I've just been thinking a lot about space and community and friendship and collaborative, artistic exploration. And, yeah, it's prompted, it's just been so nice to, like you mentioned, the laughter like in editing this together, you know, I connected with Sabahat, and then the following week Sabahat and Nermeen and I were able to connect across three time zones. And just the laughter that emerged, the peaks of laughter in the recording has just been really comforting. And yeah, it's kind of tempered the loneliness of, that we've all sort of working our way through this year. So we all went on the field trip to the Constellations Resonant Bodies sound exhibit. I just wondered if you had any reflections about going to that exhibit? Memories of that day? Maybe, how it, did it shift anything in the way that you think about sound? Yeah would you mind sharing a bit about that?

Saba

It was incredible. I think just, first of all, going to that space was a whole kind of adventure of its own. I walked through like Trinity Bellwoods Park for the first time to get there. Like I had cross the, like walk across it and kind of go through all of these like twists and turns and all these very, like, obscure streets for me like because I hadn't really forayed into really that part of downtown before. And then being able to connect with you Braeden and Sabahat and Nermeen. That was amazing because I felt like really that was such a special moment. For me to be able to experience that exhibit with all of you. First of all it was, I felt like it was kind of this combination of things. It was like an independent kind of individual journey that we're all embarking on. But also we were all so connected in the same way. And afterwards, when we were talking about it, it was so refreshing to be able to like just, all of us were just in awe, and just sharing our individual experiences. So that was really fun. This exhibit itself was incredible, like, just the way it was. All the displays were kind of, it felt like you were moving through this kind of disconnected yet very connected and cohesive kind of exhibit. Like, each display was so unique in its own right, but all of them were the media, the medium, the main medium was sound. So that was really cool. And I think that was my first, no, I know that was my first time going to sound exhibit. So it was just a day of firsts. And I was actually, though all of them were so incredible. I just spent so much time at each individual station and kind of making sure I fully kind of immersed myself in the space. I was particularly drawn to Phoebe's piece "Isn't it lovely?" I think, first of all, walking into that kind of cordoned off like room, it felt like you were entering into this whole other world. Like it was this whole other realm. There was something very comforting about it. It was I think it might have been the carpet because I'm so used to carpet flooring. And I just sat down cross legged. I think at one point, I actually lay down on my back, like fully on my back, and I just closed my eyes. And I was listening to the piece. And the piece is very much, like it's the sounds that kind of are entering your body. But it's also the space. Like the space is so intentionally designed to kind of, it almost envelops you in this comfort and this warmth. But then you're also listening to this piece that's very, like, there's a lot happening. There are a lot of sounds of conversation. You can kind of zoom in on certain parts of the conversation. You feel like you're going on this, like this roller coaster of emotion. It's very, yeah, it's so intimate in a way. It feels like you're intruding on someone's life, like you've been kind of, but you've also in a way been invited into it. Because when I actually first walked into the space, the door was slightly ajar. So it was almost like an invitation to walk in. And you kind of like hesitantly open the door. You kind of like move your way, push your way through the door and sit down. And I think I've told this story before, but that day that we visited, there was a newspaper on the ground. And I don't know, I felt kind of compelled to look at it. And I think there was something about a horoscope and I looked at my horoscope and it was just so, it resonated so much with me that it was all these like little things that kind of aligned for me to be in that room in that space. And to connect with the sounds that were kind of outside of me, but also like entering my body in a weird way. I don't know if that sounds kind of off. It really did feel like all consuming, that display. Phoebe's display felts so all consuming. And that was actually, I can, if I could vividly pinpoint a time, a moment where I fell in love with sound it was in that space. And particularly listening to Phoebe's piece and being a part of it. Because you felt like an actor, in a way you felt like a participant in that story. And the stories that were kind of being told in that space. You didn't feel removed from it, you felt very much a part of it. And I didn't even know that you could do this with sound. Like storytelling can be, stories can be told this way that they can be so intimate and so, so engaging and so immersive and so powerful. Like I couldn't stop thinking about that exhibit. And then I went back again with my partner and it was just this whole other experience just being in that space with him beside me. And yeah, it was just so lovely. And then honestly, when Constellations, they uploaded all of the pieces to their online exhibition, like for their online exhibit for Resonant Bodies. To this day, I've listened to the piece several times, and every time I just close my eyes and just take it all in and I can transport myself back to that, like I'm transported back to that space. And that day. And I think I really felt like you all were my family, like we were all there together. And I, it was such a special moment of connection. And really Braeden, it was all because of you, because I would have never heard of this exhibit. I would have never had this, like transformative experience without you. So thank you so much Braeden. I am so grateful to you for putting all this together. Like you really are the tether that connected all of us together and cultivated all these experiences that are so memorable. So thank you.

Braeden

Thank you so much. Just in these last few minutes, I wondered if, you know, we weren't able to connect for our call with Sabahat and Nermeen, but is there something, is there a message you would like to pass on to them so they can hear it when this airs?

Saba

Yes. I want to say I love you both. I feel, I will always hold on to memories that we created together so dearly. And I think what's so beautiful is that we all connected through our love of sound and storytelling. And that will always be there. Like it will always keep us tethered together. And we created this bond that is so special and so meaningful to me. And I'm so excited for also, for all the possibilities that our friendship can hold. And I'm so excited for the possibility of reconnecting in person again, because I really miss all of you. And that was one of the best summers of my life. So thank you. Yeah, thank you. I think the main thing I want to say is I'm so grateful to you all for, for just for helping me grow and being there for me, and just accepting me as I am. Yeah, I think that's so special. I think that's just what really, like I'm learning more and more, especially in a time like this, that connection is everything. Community really is everything. It's really what keeps us going and keeps us creating and keeps us moving, and kind of keeps us hopeful. So yeah.

Braeden

Thank you so much. And I'm just yeah, I'm so touched and overwhelmed with just expanding love. Yeah, this has just been so special to reconnect in this way. And, you know, I know we're, sort of maybe thinking longingly on those memories together in The West Meeting Room. But I guess my hope is that the show can carry on that space and can be a pathway for continuing these connections and collaborations. And yeah, just thank you so much. Thank you for sharing.

Saba

Oh, thank you. Have a, have an amazing day and and say hi to everybody for me to Noah and Mattis. And we'll be in touch soon. Okay, sounds

Braeden

Okay, sounds good.

Saba

Yeah! Thank you!

Braeden

Thank you! Take care

Saba

Bye!

Braeden

Thank you so much Saba for sharing your stories with us. We're going to take a quick break. And when we return, I'll bring you into my conversation with Nermeen and Sabahat as they share their memories of expanding our explorations of sound and creative collaboration. You are listening to CiUT 89.5 FM stay with us.

Nermeen

So I think it was really interesting because I was thinking about that day and like I streetcar-ed down like to that area and I hadn't really visited that like, the place where the little museum was or the Art Center. I hadn't really visited it before so even just like walking and around that area, I can remember the street really clearly. There was a bakery opposite. And just kind of like that whole experience of coming there and it started raining slightly. I think like also just being anywhere that's kind of new. Like there is a certain nervousness, like as I was walking over as well, I do remember that sort of feeling like, what if I'm the first one there and like, I don't know where to go? And how to like, how to like, do the exhibit right? And all of that. And like, I also, I haven't been to very many like conceptual art pieces in general. So I think there is also like, a certain nervousness of like, Am I gonna understand it? Am I gonna, like "get" what's happening here?

Sabahat

You know, I was talking to Braeden about this exactly, right. Where art kind of becomes this exclusive place where there's almost a fear of going inside. Because like galleries and everything are set up in such a way that you're just like, you know, I might not be qualified to like decipher this, you know. There's no understanding of you know, that this could be subjective. That's a real kind of fear that surrounds galleries, which I wish would go away. And I wish galleries would be more accessible. But I think yeah, that anxiety is so real. Because like, the gallery is such an acoustic kind of like, you also like, it almost feels like a sin to talk in the gallery.

Nermeen

I think also with conceptual art pieces, there's always a moment where you walk in and you're kind of like, what is happening here. And like there was the the first piece in the entrance had I think balloons were being like, inflated and deflated. And like trying to figure out like, how did these pieces actually work? And what are we supposed to be like looking at or listening for And then there was one off to the side, kind of where I think you have to put headphones on and then sort of like, again, like you start in the middle of the piece. And I think something about that was also very interesting, where it was on, it was on a loop. And I remember putting it on. And it's just like going already and you're doing this like mental math of trying to figure out like, I have no idea what this piece is about. Even if I started from the beginning, I probably wouldn't fully understand that. And then once you kind of get a little bit of a grasp on what's happening, you can sort of absorb it a lot better. And I think, and just kind of, I think walking in with everybody and everyone kind of split into their own directions and went to different ones was cool to just sort of see, just to see the way that people were experiencing the exhibit. Feels like such a long like, I feel like the whole world changed since then basically, which it did in a way. It's just so strange. Like, I just feel like time as this whole concept is so so strange. But that actually makes me, that reminds me kind of like, of the actual exhibit because I feel like with things that are totally sound based and like they there's no visuals to them. And actually at the Phoebe Wang one, I think specifically, there's almost like a, like a sense of like, no time basically. And like the idea that like time doesn't exist in those spaces in the same way because you're almost in this like sound bubble. And especially with like any, the two pieces that stick out the most to me were her one with the, with all of the voices. And then also that other one in the sound box. For hers, though, I was trying to find like my notebook because I had kept a notebook with me from the day and I have no idea where it is now. But like, it might even be in Canada to be honest. But I wrote down like little bits of phrases from her, like just dialogue bits, because I thought like, these would be really interesting starting points for like a short story or something. And then the idea of like, visualizing her in conversation with these people, and it made me want to record like people around me as well. And just like, then kind of like chop up the conversation so you have to fill in all of those gaps. Because I think just like that, in itself, just this idea of capturing that human element of conversation was so interesting. And like, you almost hear yourself reflected in it. And I wish I could find my notebook and like find some stuff I had written down because I have no recollection of it now. But yeah, I think that like that, that's what really stood out to me about her piece.

Sabahat

It's always helpful if you go with people, because if you're going alone, you know, those anxieties kind of increase because you're like, Oh my god, I'm so nervous, you know, What if someone sees me? But if you're with a bunch of people who you already know and are comfortable with. Like, we were, we were together and so that kind of comfort kind of made it a little easier, where it was just like you know, Okay, this is a room. I'm just gonna lie down out here. Because I lay down in the Phoebe Wang exhibition. I was like I'm just gonna lie down. Um, you know, whichi would've definitely 100% would not have done if I was on my own.

Nermeen

I definitely agree that I think going with people makes a huge difference. But for me, what I also really appreciated about the exhibit was like the idea of like private viewing spaces. Which you don't often get in a gallery, so like the idea that you can like go behind the door or like go inside a sound box or sort of, sort of like sit on a bench off to the side and like experience that part of the exhibit like completely on your own. I remember like walking into the Phoebe Wang one actually, like I think the first time I went in I was on my own for that one and I didn't really know what was happening in it or like if I was even supposed to go in. Because it's kind of like behind the door and you're not sure if that's part of the exhibit. But just like being able to sort of like sit and not feel, or at least that maybe this is just me, but like feel conscious of like being looked at as you look at the Art. Even though like nobody is doing that because like I wasn't looking at anybody else looking at the art and so I was assuming that nobody else was either, but you always think like Am I looking at this right? Am I like, what if I'm looking at like something that's not part of the exhibit and like somebody notices. Like how embarrassing. But yeah, being able to I guess experience it just like very privately in a way, I think that kind of did make it a little bit more accessible, at least for me.

Braeden

So like we went to this exhibit because we were working in audio together throughout the course of the summer. And this was our like, end of the summer field trip. So yeah, I just wondered did it sort of change the way you think about audio or sound art?

Nermeen

I definitely came out of it with a lot of ideas about like, what I could do with sound, I think, like, with what we were doing, designing audio, and I think like anyone who kind of works on like a podcast or a more like narrative format, you're sort of thinking very much in terms of like, how do these parts connect to like a larger story. Whereas I feel like with the sound exhibit, it was very much about like, the parts themselves, and how they can be chopped up in different ways to like create, like, very auditory experiences more than narrative experiences. I think they weren't trying to tell any kind of story or like put together a consistent theme. And I think just like the idea of like, playing with sound in that way was something I actually hadn't really thought about. With the audio, I was always thinking about playing with story. And so that was like a very new concept. And just like, okay, like, a sentence could be like an audio piece. Or like, just one word, like on repeat could be an audio piece. Like I had never thought of that before. So I definitely remember like, right at the very end of the exhibit, like we all kind of came out and there was these two tables, and we were standing and like kind of debriefing about everything over there. And that was really fun. And it was kind of like, Oh, how did you feel? What did you think and like? Just, we were laughing. And it was a really nice experience. But there's also a point where, in the actually in the Phoebe Wang one, where I think like, I definitely remember Sabahat was in there, like lying down. And there was like, I think we were all in there together at some point. And like, even just like, I think experiencing that, because I had sort of briefly gone in and then came out and then experiencing it again, like together was really fun. Because like, I think that experience of like, my eyes were closed at one point. And like everybody was sort of experiencing it individually. But also just like being able to watch the reactions of different people, kind of smiling to themselves, or paying attention to different things or like scribbling notes down. That was really cool. And I think like that was the only one that I do remember us all being in that exhibit at some point together. Because like you said, I definitely did experience a lot of the exhibits on my own. And so I think that like one collective just moment of like sort of relaxing in there. And like again, it was similar to like The West Meeting Room. It was this like very other space, which is like removed from everything else. And like just pausing inside there was Yeah, I - that sticks out to me. So yeah, that was cool.

Braeden

I'd forgotten that we'd all sort of like had piled into Phoebe's space that she built. And feeling like, I don't know, I feel like kind of that whole day I felt like really connected to my child's mind. I felt like curious and kind of maybe a little silly, and maybe a little bit like, rebellious. Because it's like, you're exploring, and you can do what you want. And then just like, all piling into that space, and I don't know feeling like giggling or just feeling like that moment when you're like, when you're so, when you have like a sleep over when you're 10 and you're just like so jacked decause you're so connected. You're just like all like laughing and giggling together. And it's the best. Like I felt very connected with that feeling.

Nermeen

Yeah, I also think like something that it reminded me of what you were just saying was like, it almost felt like the idea that we were like overhearing like a conversation. And we were kind of like secretly all in on it. Because that's sort of the nature of her piece was that you're overhearing like her conversations with her friends. It almost feels like you're kind of listening through a door into like somebody else's life, into someone else's secrets. And like that kind of experience. In general, doing it with people is always so much fun. Because you can like feel, like you said, like giggle at different points and sort of think like, it feels like you're doing something a little naughty. And I think that's just like, that was such a fun part of it. And like we, I'm really glad that we got to share that.

Braeden

I guess like all of us met in Toronto and worked in sound together. But then both you and Sabahat have returned home afterwards. And so I'm wondering like, were there aspects of like the soundscapes of home that you were experiencing differently after sort of tuning your ear to like, the audio world for a bit?

Nermeen

Oh, that's such a good question. I think yes. And like, I think for me, so I mean, I came back to Dubai after being away for quite a while. Like I grew up here in bits and pieces, and then was in Canada for a long time. And I used to kind of come back for vacations, but at the same time, like I hadn't lived here I think in like five years almost. And so coming back is like, and experiencing just a very big, very fast paced city has been a really interesting experience. And I think, like I'm very sort of attuned to like certain, like one thing that really stood out to me was like the sound of prayer. So like from when I first came here back in December like that was something that I was like intensely aware of, was the fact that you could hear the mosques like five times a day. And like, usually from almost anywhere that you live, that's just part of your daily routine. And it's something so strange in the beginning because that's a sound that you would almost never hear in Toronto city just like naturally and yet it comes, it kind of like it's, you know, like if your window's open like you can hear it in the morning first thing when you wake up and like last thing before you go to sleep. And I think like those kinds of sounds are really interesting. And then also, I think language as well, like, hearing a lot more Arabic over here has been something else that I kind of, I think I'm kind of attuned to it in a different way. And then nature sounds, I think, not as much. Just because there aren't quite as many, or maybe I don't spend as much time outdoors. But yeah, there was like a point where I was going for a lot of walks, especially during a lockdown. And I think like there's kind of a lake near where I live. And so there's fountains in the lake and there's like a bunch of like really big trees where the wind sort of like rustles through and I think that sound, like those soundscapes actually reminded me a lot of Toronto, which is like a nice thing. Because there's so many sounds that are different. The sounds of nature are kind of always the same. So yeah.

Sabahat

I always think about the time when Braeden asked us to, like she gave us like homework, and she was like, you know, record like small soundscapes. And I remember we were all sharing ours and Braeden shared hers, where she was getting off the bus and you could see that TTC kind of voice go on, like this station, and then like the doors open. I think that, like because every time I think about that, I'm like, it's such so Toronto, it's like I missed that. But similar to what Nermeen was saying or, you know, like hearing the Ezan, like the call to prayer five times a day, you get so attuned to it. And like I'm born and raised here. So like, that was absolutely like part of my life since childhood. I actually, when I came to Toronto, it was very weird for a while to not hear that. Because it's just like a part of your day. It's just there. And then when I came back, I noticed the first time I heard that I almost had like, tears in my eyes, because I was like, Oh my god, like, you know. Because like, you'd miss it. But like, you know, other than that, I mean, Toronto's just like great. You know I used to like, and I think I've spoken about this so much, how, um, the biggest thing for me in Toronto, or one of the biggest things was the ability to just walk, you know. Just take a walk, or whatever, you can do that here. So just the ability to actually go out and take your phone out without the fear of like, getting mugged, and recording a sound, you know. Because like the possibilities just like shrink so much. So yeah, I think those kind of technical aspects I miss more. Was just like, you know, the ability to do that, to have the time and the luxury to do that and feel safe to do that is something that is missing now in my life.

Braeden

Are there, has there been a moment that you can think of, like, either recently, or in the past few years where like, you've heard a particular sound and you're like, completely transported somewhere else?

Sabahat

Example that came to me is kind of weird, but I'll say it. So there was this one very trashy Bollywood song that I heard the first time when I was in Toronto, because like my SoundCloud playlist would go on, and it would just like put in random songs. And I heard that for the first time and I was this is a very trash song. And so I think in my head, it became associated with a certain kind of place, and that place for me became - so I used to live at Grad House and there was a Second Cup right next to it, like it was a grad room and I used to sit there and work. Um, and I remember the first time accidentally actually, um, when I like, when I came back and that song came on, it was just so like, my entire body just was just like I'm - What's happening? you know. And I think in Toronto, actually, the first time I went to a Iqbal supermarket, which was like this Pakistani grocery shop like you get all like the masalas and like all our local biscuits and everything. The first time I went there, firstly, like the visual was like, Oh my god. And there's this really popular supermarket Karachi called garage called Imtiaz Supermarket. And I was like, you know, my first thought was, Oh my God, like I'm there. And then with sound, it was so weird, because after months and months of listening to like, mostly English. Um, you know, literally everyone there was talking Urdu or Hindi. And it was just like this weird thing where it's just like, I like it. It almost felt like, Wait, are you talking to me? Because like, I feel like I'm the only one but like, everyone was talking in Urdu with each other and it was so, that also kind of transported me back.

Nermeen

Yeah, that's so interesting. I was thinking like, I definitely think like for me as well, I think moving and the like, not so much necessarily like with languages or the just in general sound, but I think like very specific, like talking to people on the phone or even like - because a lot of my friends and a lot of my family's back in Canada. And so like whenever I get like voice notes from them, and I'll sometimes be listening to voice notes like on my way to work or like in the middle of the afternoon and there's something very like jarring about being somewhere so far away and like having this voice that pulls you back to this other place and like this other time. So I think just like familiar voices does that. But recently, my brother is a huge fan of like old songs. And he's really good at finding like these weird specific songs from like TV shows that we used to watch when we were little kids, I don't know, like, where, how he finds it. But when we were both super young, we used to love this Scooby Doo movie called The Monster of Mexico. And there was like this one particular scene that like really sticks out in my memory. This was like, literally from when I was, I think like six years old, where they're like on this crazy chase in Mexico, and there's like a, there's a song playing. And so he found that song, we were like driving to go get coffee or something. And he just like put it on. And it was so insane. Like, I literally felt like I was six years old. Like I could picture the exact scene and I was sitting back in like the old apartment, like on the purple mattress. And I was just like, it's so crazy that like you can do this with songs. Like I would never, I think have identified it on my own. Like, I wouldn't have been able to look for it. But as soon as he played it, it was like I was right back there. So yeah, that was like an interesting like a weird, like out of body experience.

Braeden

Another theme I want to focus on this show is not only sound but also space. And Sabahat and I talked a bit about this last week, but I wonder Nermeen if you would share just maybe, what was it like sort of the, your first time going into that room and meeting in that space? And then how did that sort of change over time?

Nermeen

Yeah, for sure. So it's so interesting, because I think my first memory of the West Meeting Room is that I couldn't find it. And I was looking just like, Hart House is like notoriously hard to navigate. Like, I'm a person with a horrible sense of direction. And somebody told me like I remember the meeting was up in there. And I think like, I was kind of like working with Day and then she was like just jump into the podcast conversation. Like it's totally casual. Because I was interest in podcasting. And then I was like, firstly, I can't find this room. I'm going to be late to this meeting. Like I was very, very nervous coming into that situation. And then like kind of walking up and going through Hart House and like not just navigating that like upper space, it almost feels like you're going into an attic, which in and of itself is like a very cool experience. Like it feels like you're going somewhere a little like, like you said, it's like this forbidden, like almost musky space. And then the West Meeting Room but like in contrast to that is actually like very bright and airy. And so like, as soon as I walked in, I kind of felt like a sense of ease. But the first time that I ever went in there, I think there was like 10 of us crammed into that space, which is like not a space for 10 people. And there was like a lack of chairs and like people's bags. And it was cool. But I think like it was nice, because like I definitely was again, like kind of intimidated going into that space and feeling like, I mean, I definitely feel this way a lot where I was sort of like, Oh, I'm kind of intruding on like another space and like, you know, I'm like an extra person in here. And it's already so tight. And like I'm just taking up space basically. But I think like right away, like just the general friendliness of everybody, like put me so much at ease. And then like, over time, the West meeting room became like a place where there genuinely was such an emphasis on like exploration and experimentation. And like just play that I think I like really began to look forward to it. And I also loved kind of like escaping out of my daily routine of summer courses. And I was moving apartments at that time. And just like going up into this space where you can just kind of like leave all of that stuff and just be in this like nice bright like room with like people who you enjoy talking to and like just kind of playing around with audio, which is kind of scary anyway. Of like recording yourself and then listening back to it, which is horrifying. So yeah, that space became like really a kind of sacred space in a way. And I think like at a time where, like, I was definitely looking for that space because I was leaving the city and like I had already moved and I was sort of like sleeping on couches and stuff and like half my stuff was there, half of it wasn't, that sort of became a space where I was like, Oh, I feel like there is a place for me here. Um, so yeah, that was kind of my experience with it.

Braeden

We bore witness to all of our growth and learning and then one of the most special, or just a memory that I treasure, is when Meena came to join us and meet you all, from caretaking, and how Yeah, it was just so special because, you know, she's very, she came to drop off something for my daughter and she, you know could be quite shy and for you and Saba and Nermeen to just like welcome her and have this moment where you each shared parts of your story with each other. And like I couldn't really understand but like we're all like crying together and hugging it, yeah, it just felt like it bridged community. Because like the the caretakers are often this like invisible labor force that people don't really see or appreciate and for her to be brought into a community with students so that you know, I think she saw you in the coming weeks after that and you were able to like greet each other and say hello. And it just felt like yeah, it just felt like more familial and friendly like just in this like tiny forgotten room in this like reclaimed space in the West Wing of the castle. It just felt like so warm and felt like home and kind of made the whole rest of the building feel a little friendlier.

Sabahat

You spoke about Meena and like, I cherish that so much because it was actually during the days when I was really, really missing my mother a lot, back in Pakistan. And Meena and I, she was from originally from India, and Hindi and Urdu, like our two languages are pretty similar, like we can understand each other completely. And so that, you know, first instant of recognizing that, you know, we speak the same language comfortably and started speaking in Urdu. And she said something like, after just like maybe like a few sentences of like, you know, me asking her How are you? And you know, which part of India are you from? And all of that, you know, she called me something, she said "meree betee", which means like my daughter. And she hugged me. And I think that was just like, I, it was just like so needed in that moment. For you know, there was this recognition that, you know, we, because when you meet someone from like a same or similar culture, there's like this instinctual understanding, you know. You understand their bodies, you know, you, there's this understanding that you know where I'm coming from. You know, and so when she hugged me and said, you know "meree betee, which means, you know, Oh my daughter, it was just like this, really nice, you know. So I'm really glad you brought that up. Because Yeah, that was, that's one of the most beautiful moments for me as well. Where I was, you know, cuz like, living in Toronto, you don't, I didn't get to speak my own language a lot anyway. And for that, like, beautiful thing to happen in that same room where it did feel very, very safe was just another, you know, beautiful thing. Yeah.

Braeden

Yeah. Oh, thank you for sharing. I'm crying thinking about it.

Sabahat

I'm like struggling to not cry right now. [laughter]

Braeden

Yeah. Laughing and crying all at the same time.

Sabahat

Yeah, That basically defines the West Meeting Room. Yeah.

Nermeen

Yeah.

Sabahat

Like she said though, there's always space for you in The West Meeting Room, you can leave everything behind. And, you know, and like, she said, you know, it was not a room for 10 people, but like, I just - I was just thinking, like, considering how small that room was, we partied. We had multiple food parties. We were always like getting samosas and like having parties in that room [laughter]. So yeah just feel like, you know, in that small space, like we all felt heard. And, you know, I remember this very uncomfortable moment, even after we've gotten acquainted and everything, when we were playing our moment of transformations for each other, that listening party. And I knew that, you know, and I wasn't having a very good day, and I recorded it like way in advance, and I was just like, okay, you know, hearing it back is probably going to trigger me. So, you know, I just whispered in Tony's ear, and I just, like, left the room. I was like, you know just call me when you're done. Um, but like, as soon as I left, I think after like a few minutes, I was like, I want to see how people are reacting, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, because in my head, I was like, Oh, everyone's probably cringing. And they're, like, you know - So I did come back in. And the response was just like, you know, it was like dead silence. And like, I saw a bunch of tears, and it was just like, you know when you're like, you're sharing something so, so, so personal. And for that to be received so like open heartedly, that was just, I think that could only have been done in the West Meeting Room. I think anywhere else would have been a very different experience. So I think that's what the room signifies. For me. It's just like, you know, you're heard. You have space there for everyone. Even though it's tiny. We're always gonna have samosas [laughter]

Braeden

Sabahat, Nermeen, Saba, thank you so much for joining me in conversation today and for all that you shared. A big thank you to Phoebe Wang, who generously sent over her piece titled, "Isn't it lovely?" for us to play on our show today. And thank you to Constellations, which is the sound art and experimental narrative collective that put together the Resonant Bodies exhibit last year. You can listen to all of the pieces featured at that exhibit and more, if you visit their website at constellationsaudio.com And most of all, thanks to you, our listeners. Thank you for joining us each week in The West Meeting Room to laugh and cry and learn from one another. We would love to hear from you. You can reach us @harthousestories on Instagram. Send us a message and let us know the ways you're connecting with community in these lonely times. Take care and we'll be with you next week.

#space #sound #hear #exhibit #people #connection #storytelling #memory #walking #listening #soundscape #urdu #language #community #safespace

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Hart House Conversations: First Year Roundtable 2017

Broadcast Oct. 25, 2017

SPEAKERS

Guershom Kitsa, Rebekah Robinson, John Monahan, Nour Bazzi, Sabrina Brathwaite

John: Hello everybody and welcome to Hart House - the center of art, culture, wellness and dialogue at the University of Toronto. You are listening to Hart House Conversations, a monthly show where we focus on stories of interest drawn from the dynamic activity that takes place here. Stories that affect students and our entire community. You'll hear from thinkers, from doers, performers, scholars, creators, and everything and everyone in between, from both inside and outside the University of Toronto. I'm your host, John Monahan, and I'm the Warden of Hart House. Before we start our conversation today or introduce our guests, I'd like to first acknowledge that this land on which the University of Toronto operates has for 1000s of years been the traditional and sacred land of the Huron Wendat, the Seneca and most recently, the Mississauga is of the New Credit. Today, this meeting place is still home to the many Indigenous people from across Turtle Island. And we are grateful to have the opportunity to work on this land. So on today's show, I'll be talking to a group of incoming University of Toronto students who are actually first year University of Toronto students who've just arrived this fall. We're going to talk to them about the thrill, the terror and the anticipation of the first year of university. And as I, as I record this with them here in the studio, it is the end of October, so they've had a couple of months to get used to life here. And it'll be exciting to see what their thoughts are about living here, in a big city, going to school on a big campus as part of a new system. They have to deal with books and finances and transportation. And for some of them at least, a new place to call home. So this is an opportunity for us to connect with the class of, Can you believe it?, 2021. And we're going to learn a little bit more about who they are today. So with no further delay, I'd like to welcome four amazing first year students who each have their unique stories to share with us today. They are and I'm going to ask you to say hello when I introduce your name. Sabrina Brathwaite.

Sabrina: Hello

John: Nour Bazzi

Nour: Hello

John: Rebekah Robinson

Rebekah: Hello

John: And Kitsa Guershom

Kitsa: Hey, hey.

John: So people want to know who you are, what our first year students like today, these young people that will be graduating in 2021, which sounds so far off in the distance, but it'll go so quickly. Really. The first two hopefully

Nour: Time flies!

John: That's interesting. The first two months feel like they've gone quickly for you?

Rebekah: Definitely. I feel like time has passsed slowly and quickly, all at the same time. Time doesn't seem to exist here.

John: Does anyone else feel that way?

Nour: Time is flying.

Sabrina: Yeah, the schedule is faster paced than high school. So at this point, I'd still be fooling around in class a year ago. But now it's midterms. So it was a shock. They crept up.

John: A bit of a head spin right?

Sabrina: Yeah.

John: How did that happen?

Sabrina: Um, well, I wasn't doing anything. And then I checked my calendar, and I had things due and I had to start doing things. So that was, that was intense. Yeah. Getting into the work mode. And having deadlines like, coming at me left and right.

John: Yeah. And total self management, right? Like, yeah, no one's gonna stand over you and say, manage your time. You either do it or you don't.

Rebekah: Yeah, it's been like one of the hardest things for me is like constantly having to check my planner. Like, every day, I have an ongoing to do list of things that I need to get done. And it feels like it never gets shorter. It only gets longer. So like, every day, I'm constantly adding things to my to do list.

John: Welcome to my world.

Nour: Now it's like no one cleans up your mess. It's like not in high school anymore, where you get to like know if you mess up, then someone else is gonna come in there. And you're not alone. Now, it's like the adult life. And some of us are not even 18 like,

John: Ooh okay, so let's, let's take a step back. We want to meet you, we want to hear your story. So I'm going to start on my left in the studio. Rebekah is to my left. Rebekah, tell everyone a little bit about yourself, where you're from. How it is you arrived here at University of Toronto? What you're studying? Whatever you want to share with us.

Rebekah: Sounds good. Well, I'm Rebekah. I'm 18. I'm from the US. I'm actually from Maryland. I went to high school in Baltimore, I went to a really small all-girl high school with a graduating class of 76. So coming to U of T is like a huge change because everything's just so much more massive here. And it's, it's kind of mind boggling sometimes. I came to U of T in hopes of studying international relations, but over the course of going to classes and you know, just figuring out the work, I found that like, my favorite class right now is Russian. I studied Russian in high school. So I joke with my parents that I might end up becoming a Russian Language Literature major only because that's something that I really enjoy now.

John: I mean, would it please them or take them off.

Rebekah: No, I think they'd be, I think that's something they expect actually because like I love languages. So like they'd be pretty down for it. But I know they'd be more excited if I was an International Relations major, but

John: Life is long.

Rebekah: Exactly. Yeah.

John: Are you living in residence?

Rebekah: I am. So I'm living in the Chestnut Residence. So it's kind of commuting but kind of not. So like, technically I am on campus. But a 20 - 25 minute walk seems like a bit of a commute. It's kind of frustrating. I'm kind of worried for the winter.

John: Well, and for those not familiar with Toronto or the University of Toronto, Chestnut is a massive residence that used to be a hotel, and has been converted into a student residence for the university and it's located in downtown Toronto. So, well listen, if no one has said it to you or not said here recently, Welcome to the University of Toronto. We're going to continue around the the table sitting to the left of Rebekah, is Sabrina Brathwaite. Sabrina, What's your story? How did you come to be here? What are you about?

Sabrina: Hi. So yeah, I'm Sabrina. And I'm actually from Pickering, Ontario, which is about 40 minutes east of Toronto. So I've spent a lot of time in and out of the city. I went to Pickering High School, which is ironically, in Ajax. It has about, I had about 1100 - 1200 students. I graduated with a couple 100 people. So I'm used to being in the city. And I'm used to being around a large group of people

John: Probably used to being on GO trains as well.

Sabrina: I am used to being on GO trains. The whole summer was me coming back and forth. Because since I was close, I could get like my T card and things earlier. It really was a blessing to be closer, especially when I hear my International student friends, especially ones from the States who don't have the culture shock, but they also weren't close enough to get in on things a little earlier. So coming to U of T my intended major, hopefully, is Ethics, Society & Law, which is headed by Trinity College, with a double minor in Spanish and French. And I live, well, I go to UC, University College, and I live in Morrison Hall. So literally right in the middle of campus. But all of my classes are at Victoria. So every day, it's about a 10 minute walk, which is actually really nice because I get my workout in, because I'm out of organized sport, which is one thing that I missed from high school and being younger is that my mom paid for my sports, and now that I need to pay for it myself. I can't afford it.

John: What were your chosen sports or are your chosen sports?

Sabrina: For the first three years of high school and then two years before that, elementary school, I was an all star cheerleader. And then I went to high school, I became a high school cheerleader, and then my joints gave out on me. So now I do circus, like silks and trapeze

Nour: That's awesome.

Sabrina: Yeah, it's really fun.

John: So that's, so my knees are a bit wonky. Does that mean that I should move to circus?

Sabrina: Actually, yes. Because stretching will improve your range of motion, which will help with your joint pain and stuff like that. Okay.

John: Okay, Yeah, I will follow up with that.That's fascinating. Okay, so we have a Russian specialist and a circus performer. And continuing our tour of the table we have Nour Bazzi. Nour tell us about yourself.

Nour: So I'm Nour I actually come from very far away. I was born in Scarborough, Toronto, but I've lived abroad my whole life. Yeah, so um, I've lived in Dubai for, ever since I can remember. So the transition is massive. So um,

John: Big cities. This is like a little, not on a map, compared to Dubai.

Nour: No, I mean, like, this is huge. This is like, the weather is different. The everything is different for me. And it's very, very exciting, because I've never been so exposed to so much diversity, and it's very exciting. So the learning here is not just limited to like textbooks or like, you know, facts, figures, you know, whatever you learn in class. It's like, just socializing and speaking to people kind of like this. You see people from like, all around the world, and it's it's so fascinating for me. Yeah.

John: And what are you studying?

Nour: Right now I'm a life science student. I'm hoping to specialize in Human Biology next year. My end goal is medicine and hopefully surgery.

John: Fantastic. So you were born in Scarborough and then grew up in the UAE and Dubai. Did you always anticipate that you would come back to Canada for university? Was that the grand plan?

Nour: I mean, yeah, especially over the couple like, over the couple like last few months when I was there. I was like, so it's gonna be U of T because, you know, the research opportunities. They're like, massive and I was like, super, super excited because I'm interested in science. So this was great for me. I came like, mainly because of the research opportunities. But when I, whenever I arrived here, I knew it was so much more than just that.

Kitsa: That's funny because I wanted to go to Dubai.

John: Wow, the irony. Right, well, that was the voice of Kitsa. Kitsa, tell us about yourself. Tell us where you grew up. Tell us how you came to be here at the University of Toronto. Why you wanted to go to Dubai? Did you take a wrong turn at I don't know Luxembourg or something and ended up in Toronto? What happened?

Kitsa: I guess my flight was diverted or like the pilots forgot service. Anyway yeah, so my I'm probably the most multifaceted person. Because I was born in Congo. That's Democratic Republic of Congo in Africa. But I grew up in Kenya as a refugee. Differences here, I see different culture. And I was able to get this opportunity much later than most of everyone I know. Because I finished high school in 2015. And since I wasn't a citizen, I sort of had to pick a different path in life.

John: Was that in Kenya you finished high school?

Kitsa: Yeah, I was in Kenya. So I was an artist. I was training under some artists, I was doing enterpreneurship, I was doing a bunch of stuff. But then sometime last year, I got this opportunity, a scholarship to U of T. To Canada, actually. I didn't know where I was going to end up. And I ended up at U of T. So I'm really excited. Yeah.

John: Fantastic. So what are your first impressions?

Kitsa: Oh this this place for me wasn't new, wasn't strange, because I mean growing up in Kenya, I grew up in the capital city, the people are the same. The structures may be different, but like, deep down, people are the same. Okay, maybe the differences are in Kenya it's predominantly one race. So coming and you're seeing like 20 different races - okay there are not are 20 different races - but you have seen that many different people. And the majority, you actually pass on like the minority in terms of race, it's not something that you feel, but like looking at it, it actually makes it interesting that you are able to learn that the people have the same interest, the same affections, the same values as you. Even though they may appear to be so different. So yeah, that's that's how it's been.

John: That's a really profound takeaway. And how long did it take you to perceive that after arriving? Did it, you were hit with this, like, when? Within the first few hours, or is it something that's kind of grown incrementally over the past few months?

Kitsa: Yeah, it's, it's something that's still taking time in me. Because I came here earlier, before the school opened, about a week or two, two weeks before the school opened, and it was extremely lonely. I had no one to talk to, I didn't know anyone. I did not know anything. I couldn't go anywhere. So I was just in residence in Whitney Hall, all on my own. But then after a while, able to speak to different people. Sort of like you kind of get what people are about and what they care about. And that's really amazing. Being able to connect to that.

John: So thank you for sharing that. And both Kitsa and Nour, you've talked about or alluded to the diversity at the University of Toronto. I'm wondering, Rebekah and Sabrina, and Sabrina, you grew up in Pickering. And by the way, I have cousins that attend Pickering High School, so I feel an immediate affinity towards you. It's a good school. And they're good cousins. In case they're listening. But I'm just curious about the, was there an appeal to studying in a city like Toronto? For you, Rebekah, coming from Baltimore, another large city but in a very different country. Perhaps more different every day than Canada in some ways. And in other ways, very familiar I'm sure. Tell us about your read of the notion of diversity and its cousin inclusion, as you experience it and perceive it in Toronto.

Rebekah: Definitely. Well, like I said before, I really wanted when I first came up, I thought I wanted to do International Relations. So being on a campus in another country, like outside the US was something that was really exciting for me because I wanted to be able to interact with people from all around the world. And of course, like universities in the states also have like international students. But I feel like in terms of, I heard a statistic before I came here that like more than half of the population who lives in Toronto was born like outside of Toronto, or even outside of Canada. So that seems super exciting to just get to like, get all these people's different experiences and just hear their stories and I attended an International Student orientation week before school started. And just sitting around and talking with people and just hearing like their life story and like where they grew up and stuff was something that I like never really thought that I could ever experience. And it was definitely eye opening to me. I really wanted to come to U of T because I wanted that, that sense of like international opportunity to talk to people, but even being from the US, like people are like, Oh, you're just from south of the border, you know. Like you're not really that foreign and you're not that different. But even coming here, there's been some few cases of culture shock. And it's all in the little subtle things that you don't expect there to be differences in. Like, I don't know, in terms of like, not even just like pronunciation of like words and things but like culturally like, I remember I was on the TTC. And like when my friends got off the TTC, like everyone like said Thank you, Goodbye, or like talking to like the drivers on the bus. But like, I feel like that would never happen in Baltimore. So that was just something where I was like, okay, that's a little different. So yeah, it's just little things like that.

John: I hear, and of course, I would be blind to this because I was raised in in Scarborough, close to Pickering by the way. But I'm told that that Torontonians tend to apologize a lot. Even if we're not actually.

Rebekah: Yeah

Kitsa: Very true

John: Like, if you bump into me, I might say I'm sorry. Instead of saying, hey, why did you bump into me? Yeah, I'll say I'm, I'm sorry.

Kitsa: I mean, it's sort of rubbing off on me right now. Because I apologize to people like 15 times now.

John: So that was our plan. That was our, that was our intention. Yeah, no, it's it's kind of a quirky thing, I think. But I mean, Sabrina, what about for you? And I asked this as a fellow, what's the term exsurbian? Someone for the exsurbs or the suburbs of the metropolis of Toronto, I found that a culture shock when I came downtown to the St. George campus having been born and raised at Agincourt. Do you, have you felt any kind of culture shock? Maybe you wouldn't put it in those terms. But is there anything that you're having to adopt to or things that are surprising to you?

Sabrina: Nothing outside of adapting to just becoming an adult and becoming independent. But I also think it comes with how you carry yourself.

John: What does that mean? How you carry yourself?

Sabrina: So Pickering isn't large by any means compared to Toronto, but there is quite a lot of people, and even my high school wasn't a small high school. I know some people who graduated with a couple 10s of people in their class, like 30 people, 12 people. But coming from a large school compared to other schools around it, it was one of those schools where you needed to put yourself forward, if you wanted to have a leadership position. Or if you wanted to be the leader of a club, or be involved in something that's not -

Nour: You put yourself out there

Sabrina: Yeah you got to put yourself out there. And I was very involved in extracurriculars in high school. And I took what I learned in my confidence and being able to speak to professors and being able to speak to you know, someone like you. Like you're the Dean of Hart House. I have friends who say like, I don't know how to email my professor, and I send them drafts because they don't know how. So coming here, I think, being confident enough to put yourself out there even with Jennifer, she emailed me. She's like, you want to do this thing? I was like, I don't have time. She's like, Well, I have another opportunity for you. And I jumped on that. And I think being willing to put the step forward makes your surroundings a lot less, seem a lot less closed. because now you're opening yourself up to other people. Yeah.

John: Right, so I would suggest, and I'm not the sociologist at the table. Yeah. But I would suggest that you, one of the one of the reasons you're able to do that is because you have a sense of your own agency, right, and your responsibility for doing those things and being and and, also, there's kind of this, at least in in Canada, we like to see, think of ourselves as not being a terribly stratified society or being less stratified than many other societies around the world. So that a first your student not only should feel comfortable contacting a professor, but actually must contact a professor and go to office hours and ask questions and become familiar with the people that are running your courses and running your colleges and running your faculties. But I've heard and I'd be curious to know from the International students in the room, does that feel like a culturally comfortable thing to do? Because I've heard anecdotally from some International students that where they come from, their geographic background, their cultural background, says professors and administrators are up on a kind of a parapet and the students are are down below. And they are to receive information, but they are not to ask questions or to challenge assumptions. And it's a very stratified kind of relationship. And that can actually complicate student's ability to get their questions answered and to clarify their assignments and those sorts of things that are really essential to success at a place like the University of Toronto. So I'm going to ask you that question. I'm going to let you think about your answer, because we have to stop for our first musical break. So we'll be back in about two and a half minutes to continue the conversation.

John: Thanks. And welcome back to Hart House Conversations. I'm John Monahan here with Rebekah, Sabrina, Nour and Kitsa. First year students at the University of Toronto talking about their impressions and experiences here at the university. And just before the break, I had raised the question for, in particular, the International students in the room, that would be Rebekah, Nour and Kitsa, if they thought that there was a different relationship between students and professors here than in the places and cultures that they come from, and how they are able to navigate that or how they anticipate navigating that. So Nour, you were going to weigh in on that. What are your thoughts?

Nour: Yeah, so it's actually, this was actually one of the most surprising things I found when I first came here. So where I'm from, it was like, emailing your professor like, was not even a thing. And coming here and everything's like so open to you, you have a lot of opportunities, you have office hours. Like some professors even, they're so like, they make you feel so comfortable. And you don't even have to, so for some professors, you don't even have to like, you know, you can just call them by their first name. And I found that very, very surprising. And it just opens up a lot of opportunities that were never opened to me before and would have never existed for me had I not have like to come here. So I find that very, very exciting.

John: What about you Kitsa?

Kitsa: Oh, yeah. I'd say definitely yes, but I think there's a but to it. Because like Sabrina shared before, some people are more confident. I think the culture is sort of the same. Only that here, it's, it encourages that kind of an atmosphere more than it does in other countries. But I was in Kenya, I was speaking to everyone, from the person who was cleaning the class, the school, to the head, the principal. It was unheard of to be able to approach that principle in like our culture. But I feel like if someone is really passionate about something, then they're able to approach people and talk about it. And what this environment does that most other environments do not do is that they kind of like light that passion in you. And they kind of like, encourage it more for everyone. So it's more accessible for more people. Whereas it would be accessible for maybe one or two really confident individuals in maybe my country.

John: Interesting. So you think the system here is designed to encourage everybody?

Kitsa: Yeah

John: to to be more at ease with people in perceived positions of power?

Kitsa: Yeah.

John: That's really interesting. I'm curious to know. And by the way, it resonates with me as well, I don't know, you know, even 30 years, your senior. Sorry, brief moment for some depression to set in, but 30 years your senior. But 30 years ago, I was very intimidated by the people that were teaching classes. And it took me at least a couple of years at the university to kind of get my, my what I call my sea legs, you know. Where I kind of felt like I had the agency and maybe the social capital to begin to actually interact on a person to person basis. So the fact that you're doing that in first year, or know that you need to, I think is fantastic. I think it's amazing.

Kitsa: Yeah, it's amazing. And I was having this, whenever you're able to reach out to these people, not only do opportunities open up for you academically, but also so many possibilities are opening up to you. I was having this conversation with my success advisor. And she just, I had this thing that I really wanted to do. I was saying I wanted to change the world. And I was like, how am I going to change the world? And she actually put me on a path where I could see myself impacting other individuals and sort of like sharing. I felt that at Toronto and U of T specifically, it's the best university in Canada, one of the best in the world. There's so much diversity that is brought into place that we need to share this. And so like having conversations with these people in power, it can, it kind of opens us up to how we can be able to reach out to more people and to new possibilities. More than just looking at a lecture slide or writing notes in class.

John: And I'm sure it benefits all parties. Yeah, it's really important for everybody, regardless of what your job is, or your perceived social position is, it's really beneficial for everybody to have that. To have those, those diverse conversations and to begin to learn how to navigate differences in really constructive ways. So I think that's a really powerful lesson. Speaking of powerful lessons, what are you expecting to learn while you're at university? And I don't mean academics. But what are you expecting to learn about life, about how to navigate the world, or the things that you're looking forward to learning and doing outside of your, outside of the classroom while you're at the university?

Rebekah: Yeah, I think something that I'm really looking forward to is just taking agency over my own actions. Because in high school, there's always people like, oh, there's this opportunity if you're interested. Like, I think you'd be a great candidate, you know, like, you should sign up for this kind of thing. And in university, it's a little different because those opportunities are there, but it's up to you to, first of all, seek them out, and then up to you to actually get them done. So hopefully, that's something that I learn. I'm in the process of applying to something actually right now. So hopefully, I will be able to get my to do list together to make sure that I get all of the things done. So that's something that hopefully I'll get by the end, by the time I graduate.

John: Sabrina, what about you?

Sabrina: Um, something that I'm excited to kind of hone, I suppose is like networking and networking skills. Which sounds really superficial on the face of it?

John: Oh I don't think so. I don't think so at all.

Sabrina: Some people will say like, you know, it's, you're just going to meet people, whatever. But it's actually, I wouldn't call it an art, but it's a skill to be able to talk to people and be able to connect with someone in a way that like, you can get their number, get their Facebook and contact them even after months or years of not talking.

Kitsa: I need to learn that. I need to see you for that.

John: You've just networked, by the way. This is it, you're just doing it.

Sabrina: Especially in this job market, and just kind of like financial climate, I didn't wanna throw too many buzzwords out. But a lot of the times with jobs and just opportunities, it's not so much the skills you have. There's 50 other people with the skills you have. But it's the people you know, and it's what the people you know know of you and what you in particular can bring into that position. The things that they know about you, that the interviewer can't get out of a half hour, you know. So I'm just looking, really looking forward to just be better at talking to people and taking in what they're saying to me and remembering names, remembering details, and making actual viable connections.

John: All of that sounds very wise to me. No, it really does. Because, you know, we have, if we're not marketing ourselves, who's going to do that for us? Is part of what you're saying. And it's also just a reality that people engage with, they hire, they recruit from people they know. And so it's really important, and it's not a, it's not super, I don't think it's superficial at all, if it's, if you're driven by a genuine curiosity in other people, and what they do, and how what they do fits together with what others do. And you begin to map the world in a really interesting human way, person by person. I think it's a really terrific skill to learn. Thank you. Yeah, that's great. Nour what about you? What are you excited about?

Nour: So one of the things I'm really looking forward to in university is not just to be on the receiving end, but to also just like, give back and as Sabrina just said, to communicate, and to be part of something that, you know, I don't want to just learn in university. I want to teach. I want to be part of something that maybe teaches kids somewhere, like, on the weekend. Or like, maybe volunteer in healthcare, just to be able to connect with my community and not just be on the receiving end. So I'm just really looking forward to that.

John: I think that's amazing too. And there's lots and lots of opportunities to do that. The university has a number of ways that they can introduce you to some of those opportunities. And there are resources on campus. For example, through the Center for Community Partnerships, or even here at Hart House. We have some of those initiatives. I think that's

Nour: that were not available to me when I was back home.

John: Is that right?

Nour: So this is very exciting.

John: Very different.

Nour: Yeah, very, very different.

John: Kitsa, so what excites you and then what? What scares you?

Kitsa: Wow, what excites me, what scares me. Okay, I noticed that I was asked that question in specific and not the one on what I'm really looking forward to

John: No I said, What excites you? And then we're gonna move back with the other people and find out what scares them. Or intimidates them. But anyway, but what excites you first of all?

Kitsa: I'm really glad that you put it in those words, because as you were like what are we really looking forward to learn - When I got here, I was super excited over the opportunities that are available in this place. Two months in, I got super intimidated. Why? Because there's this serious conversation that people are having, a lot of my peers are having, that is such a high level of competitiveness, that people are not able to penetrate most markets. I'm not a business student. Yeah, I got this opportunity to join architecture. So that's what I'm studying. But as Sabrina said before, people don't just employ people with the skills anymore. People employ people who they know and trust. And I feel that that's sort of bringing an idea to most of us who are in school right now that we have to compete for what we are going to get. So there's this idea of limited resources, which I feel should not be the case. And this, I hope my sociology professor doesn't listen to this regretting, because we were having this discussion in class. And they were like those, this baby boom generation -

John: If you're a sociology professor, turn off the radio now.

Kitsa: So yeah, this period in time where there are more babies born in history than they have been before. And we're seeing that because so many babies are born, the society was not prepared to take care of this strain on the resources. But I feel like if you have 20 more engineers, that doesn't mean that we have fewer jobs for these 20 engineers. That actually means that we have 20 more people who can be able to do more than one person will do. And so that's what I'm, that's what I'm really excited about. The idea that competitiveness is not entirely, it should not be observed in terms of like limitation. But in terms of like possibilities. And what she said just right now, that's what I was going to say. What I'm really looking forward to learn is how to give back. Because I'm at this point in my life, where I feel so much has been given unto me, we need to give. Someone said this, someone in the history of the United States said that some generations so much is given. And in other generations, so much is expected. And I feel like this is the generation that so much has been given. But little has been expected from us. And recently, we've delivered little. So looking forward to having conversations with people in different places in the university. People at the Impact center, Hart House, all these people. And I want to form something called the Student Innovation Hub. I hope that name is not patented yet. And I just want to connect people with people and just like that. I'm really excited about that. I don't feel like competitiveness should be a threat. Rather, it should be an opportunity.

John: I think that sounds amazing. Yeah, here at Hart House, we have something called the Good Ideas Fund. I just want to mention, that you can find information at harthouse.ca. And the good ideas fund is a way to obtain up to I believe it's $2,000 in funding for a really good idea. Yeah. So I would encourage you and others listening to explore that. Others at the table, is there something that intimidates you a little bit about your experience? Or have you got it all figured out?

Rebekah: Kind of like what Kitsa said, like there's the competitive aspect is something that I mean, I had in high school, but not to the same extent as it is in university. And trying to navigate that and try to get over that aspect. You know, being able to put myself out there is something that I'm still trying to explore and I'm still scared about. There's, I found a few activities that I really enjoy doing so far on campus. But in high school, I was always super busy. Like, I had 14 hour days, like I was constantly doing things. And at the beginning of university, I just felt like I wasn't doing enough. Like I was constantly like either going to class, coming home, doing homework, and I just felt like there was something missing in terms of my schedule. Being a Humanities student, like unlike engineering students, like we have a lot of free time in our schedule that we don't have as many classes. So I just felt like I wasn't using my time to the best of my ability. So I think that going forward and going to the rest of this year, I'm going to try to find activities that I truly enjoy doing to like help fill in some of those gaps in my schedule.

John: Can I just applaud you for figuring that out by the end of the second month?I mean it took me until my third year. Sabrina, what about you?

Sabrina: For me, I think what's most intimidating is that I was a very high achiever coming into here. I was kind of, U of T was one of the schools I was looking at, but I was also contemplating applying to like Ivy League. So like Harvard, Columbia, U of T. And then I applied to some other schools in Canada. So I was very active, and my grades were up there and I came, I come here. And I haven't seen much of a change. But everyone has been telling me that I'm going to have that great fall, where I'm not going to, I'm not going to get that A or whatever on my paper. I'm, I mean, I've been rejected for a couple of things. I was like, interviewed for a work study I didn't get. Whatever. But I'm waiting for that academic fall and waiting for that great, like, destruction. And I feel like the longer I go, where I feel kind of like I'm on the same path as I was in high school, like I'm doing well, when things come crumbling down, it's gonna be a mess. Because everyone's telling me like, you're not gonna be able to sustain this. You're in first year, you're not going to get these marks the whole time. So that's kind of, I'm waiting.

John: Okay. We have to say goodbye to one of our panelists, because academia is calling. I want to take this opportunity to thank you Kitsa. It's been a delight to meet you. And I look forward to further interaction with you. And we're going to continue the conversation for a few minutes after you've gone. I promise we won't talk about you though [laughter]

Kitsa: It's ok you can talk about me. I wish I could stay longer, but

John: I hope there'll be another time. And you know, it'd be fun. I'm just putting it out there for the producer who's listening. We should have a check in, like at the end of the first year. How did that go for you? Right, so we'll gather again.

Kitsa: Awesome.

John: Okay. Good luck today.

Kitsa: Thank you.

John: Okay. Nour.

Nour: So I think I speak for a lot of International students, or students coming from abroad, when I say the transition from childhood to adulthood, even when you're not, especially when you're not around your family, like, you're so - when you're back home, you're so used to like, yeah, I can mess up, it's fine. You know, you have people that can pick you up. But now it's like, every action has a consequence. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it's part of this transition, right? It's part of, of growing up. It's part of, it's exciting, but it's also something very intimidating. So it's a little bit of both for me. Yeah.

John: Does that resonate with Sabrina and Rebekah? Looking for nods? Yes, it does. So a couple of you have referenced activities outside the classroom. And you both, you've all been busy. While you were in high school, you did a lot beyond just your studies. Here at Hart House, and in many other pockets of the university, we talk a lot about the importance of education outside the classroom. And that if, if all you are doing is getting A's in your classes, obviously, it's better to get A's than to get other marks. But if that's all you're doing, that's not the full, the full package of your education. That it's really important to pursue interests that will help you to develop some of the communication skills and leadership skills and networking skills like the ones that Sabrina referenced. It's also important to find an opportunity for health and wellness and balance so that you're able to manage all of the various things that are thrown at you in first and second and third and fourth year. So I'm just curious to know, are you, thus far in your studies, able to, have you been able to carve out time for those co-curricular activities? And if so, what are you doing or what are you hoping to do? How do you want to get involved? And how important do you think those things are to your overall education? That's a lot in one question...

Rebekah: Well for me, and one of my favorite things to do in the world is play volleyball. I played volleyball all throughout middle and high school, and I love volleyball. But I say that volleyball doesn't love me only because I've received a lot of injuries playing volleyball, which has kind of helped or prohibited me from playing in certain times in my life but

John: Have you tried circus? [laughter]

Rebekah: I'll look into that. But that was something that I was really looking forward to joining when I came to U of T So I joined the New College intramural volleyball team and we have games every Tuesday so that's been like a nice like thing to have in my schedule because it gives me time to like not have to like think about papers that I have to write or things that I have to study. Just like time for me to play. And I've always found that even in high school like when I was playing volleyball because I used to play like two hours, five days a week, like I just felt better about myself. Because I felt like I could get the stress out, the endorphins were surging. So it was a good time. So that's something that I try to play at least twice a week. So I'll play games on Tuesdays, and then I try to do drop in volleyball on Friday. And those just like, genuinely reset my day because like, I just feel so much better after playing.

John: So you feel more productive in your studies when you've when you've managed to play a match or to do the drop in session? Do you feel like it helps you in other areas of your life?

Rebekah: Oh, I think that like, um, it helps like, keep the stress levels down. So that I'm not super worried. Like last night, I had a volleyball game. And after I came back to my dorm at night, after taking my nice bike ride in the evening time, it was just, it just, I felt better. Like I was kind of stressed earlier in that day, because I had an Econ exam on Monday and I had a paper to turn in yesterday. To like, to just go and like play volleyball and to like release all of that stress.

Nour: And it gives me more energy I think throughout the day, like the next day, you just feel so much better.

Rebekah: Yeah

Sabrina: Yeah

John: Nour, what's your de-stressor? Or what is your extra curricular or co-curricular involvement?

Nour: So for me extracurriculars were like, mainly during my summertime. So back in, when I first started, I started traveling abroad, because I wanted to volunteer abroad in medical programs. So my first one was in Ghana. That was, um, that was like we, what we mainly did there was we went to leprosy camps. And there also we conducted malaria tests in orphanages and in schools, and we went to public hospitals. And fast forward, last summer I went, actually, my hometown in Lebanon, I volunteered, I volunteered there in a Children's Cancer Hospital. And that was one of the best experiences of my life. And that same summer I interned at Stanford, it was a cardiothoracic surgical internship. And it was a very hands on program. I learned a lot of fundamentals in surgery. And it was, it was just amazing. So I usually try to incorporate these things into my summers and throughout the day to day, different activities I do. I try to, like I've been trying to, you know, just go to the gym. Because, you know, I feel like it just gives me a lot of, it gives me just better vibes throughout the day. I'm more energetic, I'm more active, I'm more available. I'm more, I just, I just feel like it's an essential part of your day. And I'm like, when I'm free, when I have some free time, I like to explore Toronto, because I feel like it's such a dynamic city with like, so many different things to do. It's not just like, you know, just a small city where you can like finish doing everything in like a week or two. You know, it's like, it's endless. So yeah, that's it for me.

John: You were born in in Scarborough? Did you live in Scarborough at all before?

Nour: I have no memory of being in Scarborough, but I left when I was about two years old. So I'm pretty new here. Yeah.

John: That's Yeah. And it's interesting, too. I'm just thinking as you're talking about the nomenclature, I think in answer to the last question, you use the term International student about yourself. But then you're not

Nour: Oh, I was actually mentioning that I can relate. Like international students as well as students who came from abroad can relate to me.

John: Well, exactly, and you to them. So I'm just curious, does the nomenclature when you think of yourself as a, do you think of yourself, if you think of yourself, as a Canadian student? As an International student? As a Canadian student that comes from abroad? How do you think of yourself?

Nour: I wouldn't have thought of myself as a very, very Canadian student when I was like back home. But now that I'm here, I feel so integrated with everything. Like I feel like I'm part of this. I feel like I'm, I'm, you know I - how do I say this? It's hard to put into words, but I feel like I belong here. I have a sense of belonging here now.

John: That's great.

Nour: Yeah. It's great. You know, Toronto gives you that.

John: Excellent. Sabrina, tell us about co-curricular because that's been a big part of your life up to this point.

Sabrina: Yes. My extracurricular journey with U of T actually started back in March. I came here for, not Fall campus day, that's what I just volunteered for. I came here for residence tours across UC. And I was a tour guide in high school, a guidance ambassador and I walked up to, I went to the visitor center, and I walked up to the first person, the front desk, and I was like, I want to do this. How do I do this? So they gave me the card for Laura Cleland. And I've been emailing her since March of 2017. Earlier this week, this year, and over the months I sent it, I sent her my resume. I sent her my CV and now I'm a student ambassador. Which started from me just being a grade 12 high school student on campus. And now that's where I got that opportunity.

John: So tell us what a student ambassador does.

Sabrina: Um, basically, kind of like a tour guide, we help set up and take down events that are open - it's the visitor center - so events that are open to visitors who are coming to visit the campus, checkout U of T, check out what U of T's about. Maybe they're not even trying to enroll here. They're just coming, like see the buildings, because the buildings are pretty. So I didn't lead any tours. But I answered a lot of questions, I directed people to different areas. And I was at an info booth. And student ambassador is a volunteer position. But it's a good way to get into the paid position, which is a tour guide. So it's kind of like the first step. I actually wanted to be a tour guide. But then Laura was like, we don't hire first years. And I was like, but you could hire me. And she's like, No. I'm spending this year and then hopefully, I can be a tour guide. But my other extracurriculars, I took my own advice that I would give to all of my grade nines, between grade 10 and grade 12, when I would do high school tours. And that was sign up for everything. You have so much time in grade nine. And I realized I have so much time in first year. So in the first month in September, I had probably about 11 things going that I was either applying for, going to interviews for bla bla bla. And I hone that down to about four or five things right now. And that's what I'm doing outside of class. But my best piece of advice to anyone coming into a new institution, especially if you're at the lowest level, is you have relatively more time than everyone else. So use that time to really find out what you're coming here for, not just for school. And then as you go up in years, you also want to move up in the ranks of whatever you've chosen to do. You want to first start and diversify, go out and then whatever you choose, you want to build up. Yeah.

John: I would dispute that first years are the lowest level. But I think I know what you're talking about

Sabrina: In terms of like the entry. Yeah.

John: Your amount of experience, or familiarity with the university, I get you. So let me stay with you, then Sabrina. When you think about extra curricular co-curricular activities? Are you thinking about things that connect to your career aspirations, or things that you want to be involved in just for the sheer joy of it, or a little bit of both?

Sabrina: It's a little bit of both. My ultimate goal is is law school. The dream is Harvard Law. So that's always in the back of my head. And because that's my interest, so a lot of the things that I do relate to my interest. So I was looking into doing mooting, I'm not doing it, but that's like law-related. You read constitutional, whatever, and try and get people off on technicalities

John: Been there mooted that. [laughter]

Sabrina: Podcasting, radio stuff is cool, not necessarily related, but it's the whole networking field. So I'm also, the student ambassador works with the networking feel. I'm on the Mental Health Commission with UC. So that helps me with learning how to like run events and really take leadership positions because it's a small commission. The one thing that I do that has no real relation is I'm not doing it now. Like I told you, I'm poor, but I'm trying to save money to get into silks for the next semester because they actually offer it at the student Athletic Center, which is like an eight minute walk from Morrison Hall. So hopefully I can scrounge up the money for that. And that has no relation to law or business or really anything we know of yet. Maybe an lawsuit, right? Yeah, someone needs to break a leg. But I do that because it's fun. And like y'all have said before, that working out really it takes your mind off of school. I find even more so than kind of like academic related co-curriculars, because you can really hurt yourself, if you're not paying attention while you're working out. Especially if you're up in the air. So you really just get to focus on something that you enjoy, which is really nice. And then you get more energy and you feel, you feel better because you're also working out your body as well as your mind.

John: There's a brief disclaimer on behalf of Hart House, we wish good health to all sorts of performers who are listening or not listening for that matter. Fantastic. So it sounds like if I may editorialize, in some respects you are, all three of you, are doing the right things that at least the things that we hear are the right things to do. Sounds like you're finding time to get your studies done, to figure out exactly what you want to specialize in. You're finding time to do things outside the classroom. You're taking care of your physical health, whether through work out at the gym or through something slightly more ambitious and dare I say dangerous. And you are thinking both short term and longer term at the same time, but that's a lot to manage. It's a lot to manage. Does it ever seem like a lot of stress?

Nour: Yeah, for sure. It's part of, it's part of the process. Yeah.

John: So, Rebekah, you talked about volleyball being a stress release. What else helps with your stress?

Sabrina: I think a really big thing, which is really hard to find in such a large university is a support system.

Rebekah: Yeah, I was gonna say something along the lines of that too.

Sabrina: And I feel like you need kind of like a two tiered support system. You need the people in your course, going through it with you to text and say, this prof is ridiculous, we're not going to be able to get this deadline, like and complain with them. But then I also feel you need the other half where you have a don or a mentor, or someone who's been through it already, that you can text and say, I don't know how to manage this. And they can say, I've been in your situation. And this is what I did. Here's some steps, you know, so you need people you can vent with who's like going through it. And then people who can kind of give you some advice. And it's really hard to find the right people in such a large place.

John: So kind of peer mentoring,

Sabrina: Peer mentoring. Yeah. And also taking advantage of the mentors that are established for you. Especially, I said, dons because I'm in residence. I live in residence, and they're literally there to help you. And there's so many. There's 70 people, I think, in my house, in Morrison Hall. And I can guarantee you that not all of them talk to the dons and there's probably a good portion of them that don't plan on doing any house activities. Don't plan on talking to the dons ever. And I feel like if you are struggling and you're stressing and you don't take that opportunity to get that help, you might be missing out on some good advice.

John: Nour, what do you think?

Nour: I think that there's a lot of, there is a lot available to us. We just don't know of it. And I'm like, if we were ever stressed out there's the college registrar, we can connect with upper year students. As Sabrina said, there are the dons. There are so many people that can help us out. I think we just, the challenge here is to seek the help, but it's always there. I think it's always there. Especially here in U of T, it is there.

John: Yeah, Rebekah, last word to you.

Rebekah: I think that just besides like the academic resources, like I think having like good friends is something that I've always found to help me get through like really stressful times. And so coming to U of T it's a little hard because everyone is meeting each other for the first time unless you like with people from your school. But I've found friends through International, like the international student orientation. And I feel pretty adult when it's up to me to like, make the effort to like see them again. Even though we don't have any classes together or just to like, have conversations with my roommates and just like constantly meet people, I find that my favorite times of day are like lunch or dinner when I'm sitting in the caf and like talking to new people around me. That's also a really big stress relief for me too.

John: Well, I would just like to say that I think 2021 is going to be a great year.

Rebekah: I hope [laughter]

John: Okay, helpful note to end on. Thanks Rebekah. That's for the next conversation. And I do hope that there is a next conversation and there will be hopefully at the end of the year. I'd like first though to thank Nour and Sabrina and Rebekah and our friend Kitsa who had to leave. Thank you so much for taking time to be here to share your perspectives. And we will look forward to the opportunity to connect with all of you again at the end of the year. And find out if your perspective has evolved or changed in some other way. And in the meantime, we wish you continued good luck. The University of Toronto is fortunate to have all of you as members of the community.

#student #toronto #firstyear #cocurricular #extracurricular #support #loneliness #agency #learning #harthouse #campus #studying #opportunity

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

Text

Ep 49 Hart House Conversations Reunion

Broadcast Feb. 13, 2021

SPEAKERS

Nour, Kitsa, Rebekah, John, Sabrina

Rebekah: Hi everyone and welcome to this week's episode in The West Meeting Room. It's your host Rebekah. Today you will hear a round table reunion conversation that took place on zoom at the end of January 2021. But it is a follow up dialogue from a conversation that first took place during October of 2017. Four undergraduate students Kitsa, Nour, Sabrina and myself gathered with John Monahan, the warden of Hart House for a recording of Hart House Conversations almost four years ago as first year students, where we discussed our hopes and fears about our upcoming academic careers at the University of Toronto. Now, almost four years later, as we near the end of our academic programs, we all joined together once again in a very different world than when we first met. And now join us as we talk about the changes that we've undergone our revelations and as we open the audio Time Capsule to speak alongside our past selves.

John: Hi, everybody. Good afternoon, and good evening to some of you. How is everyone doing? Feeling? feeling tired? Well, I am. Yeah, I'm in a state of perpetual tiredness myself these days, kind of a fogginess. But I'm really grateful that the four of you are here. We have this really exciting opportunity this afternoon, to pick up a conversation where we left it four years ago, which is a fairly rare opportunity, but a really exciting one. And I'm delighted to be here with Sabrina, and Nour, and Kitsa, and Rebekah, all of whom were first year undergraduate students at the University of Toronto, when we sat down in person at the time to talk in the radio studio at Hart House at the University of Toronto. And now it is January 2021. And, as I said, almost four years have gone by, and the world is in the grips of a global pandemic. So, we are meeting virtually, we’re all relying upon the technology of zoom, and our headphones and our computer screens to have a conversation. But here we are, nonetheless. So, I just want to plunge in and ask all of you for the benefit of the viewers that didn't necessarily meet you four years ago. Would you be willing to introduce yourselves to whoever's listening? So, Rebekah, since your head is currently the largest on my screen?

Rebekah: Sounds great.

John: Will you introduce yourself?

Rebekah: For sure sounds good. Um, so my name is Rebekah, I'm a fourth-year student at U of T. This is my last year at U of T, it's hard to believe. That time has zipped by incredibly fast and also not at all in some cases. And yeah, I'm a double major student in History and Russian Language and Literature. And I have a minor in Practical French. And I also work as part of the Hart House Stories team as Podcast Producer on campus, helping to put together this little project. So that's me in a nutshell.

John: Thank you for your nutshell, Rebekah. And because you and Sabrina are both podcast experts, you're not allowed to judge me even though I'm technically working for you this afternoon.

Rebekah: No problem.

John: Kitsa. Kitsa, so you're next on my screen? Would you introduce yourself please?

Kitsa: Sure. My name is Guershom Kitsa. I'm a fourth-year architecture student - for moment I forgot what year - was like I'm in my fourth year? Ah, yeah, I think that's it. I don't know if I should say anything else. My name and my program.

John: Well, we'll, we might drag more stuff out of you later. But that's a good beginning. And I'm sure there's, there are many more layers to Guershom Kitsa that we will be peeling back over the span of the next little while together. Nour, please introduce yourself to us.

Nour: Hi, my name is Nour Bazzi. I am an Immunology and Physiology student double major and I'm in my fourth year. And I'm so excited to be here today.

John: Excited that you're here with us. And last but not least, Sabrina. And I, I'm looking at this picture of somebody who looks like they're on the top of a building and a red parachute outfit. Is that you?

Sabrina: Yeah, that is me and I think this is interesting because I was listening to the original tape and we also had kind of an aside conversation in the introduction then as well but that is me on top of the CN Tower when my brother bought Edge Walk tickets for him, myself and my mom two summers ago. So that's me hanging over the Toronto skyline.

John: Wow. So, we know that Sabrina is someone who loves to court danger. Introduce our listeners to the rest of you.

Sabrina: Yeah, So Hello. My name is Sabrina Brathwaite. I am in my fourth year and two credits away from completing my degree, a major in Philosophy and a double minor in French and Political Science. That is French and Political Science, not Political Science in French. That's a question I get a lot. And for anyone who listened to the original audio or the original episode, you would notice that my degree selections changed. So, I feel like that's going to be an interesting conversation coming up about changing hats and trying new things.

John: Absolutely. Now, I wonder if this would be a good time for the five of us to spend a few minutes listening to a mashup from our recording four years ago. So that we can all kind of be reminded together of what we said and what the vibe was. And we're not going to hold you to anything, if you want to completely change your story. You can. That's the beauty of this. This is a free form technology. But I'm going to ask our producer Braeden to play the mash up. And we'll all listen to it. And then we'll talk about it after that.

[The following is a selection of clips from the 2017 conversation with the speakers]

Kitsa: Because I came here earlier than, before the school opened about a week or two, two weeks before the school opened, okay. And it was extremely lonely, I had no one to talk to. I didn't know anyone, I didn't know anything. I couldn't go anywhere else. I was just in residence in Whitney Hall, all on my own, but then after a while, able to speak to different people, sort of like you kind of get what people are about and what they care about. And that's really amazing. Being able to connect with that. It's amazing. And I was having this, a whenever you're able to reach out to these people, not only do opportunities open up for you academically, but also so many possibilities are opening up to you. I was having this conversation with my success advisor. And she just, I had this thing that I really wanted to do. I was saying I wanted to change the world. And I was like, how am I going to change the world? And she actually put me on a path where I could see myself impacting other individuals and sort of like, sharing, I felt that at Toronto, and U of T specifically, it's the best university in Canada, one of the best in the world, there's so much diversity that is brought into place that we need to share this. And so, like having conversations with these people in power, it can, it kind of opens us up to how we can be able to reach out to more people and to new possibilities, more than just looking at a lecture slide or writing notes in class.

Nour: I think I speak for a lot of international students or students coming from abroad when I say the transition from childhood to adulthood, even when you're not, especially when you're not around your family, like you're so, when you're back home, you're so used to like, “yeah, I can mess up, it's fine.” You know, you have people that can pick you up. But now it's like, every action has a consequence. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, it's part of the transition, right? It's part of, of growing up. It's part of, it's exciting. But it's also something very intimidating. So, it's a little bit of both for me. No, I mean, like this is huge. This is like, the weather is different. The everything is different for me. And it's very, very exciting because I've never been so exposed to so much diversity, and it's very exciting. So, the learning here is not just limited to like textbooks or like, you know, facts, figures, you know, whatever you learn in class. It's like, just socializing and speaking to people kind of like this. You see people from like, all around the world, and it's so fascinating for me. Yeah.

John: And what are you studying?

Nour: Right now, I'm a Life Science student. I'm hoping to specialize in Human Biology next year. My end goal is medicine and hopefully surgery.

Rebekah: Being on a campus in another country, like outside the US was something that was really exciting for me because I wanted to be able to interact with people from all around the world. And of course, the universities in the states also have like international students. But I feel like in terms of, I heard a statistic before I came here that like more than half of the population who lives in Toronto was born like outside of Toronto, or even outside of Canada. So that seems super exciting to just get to like, get all these people's different experiences and just hear their stories. And I attended an international student orientation week before school started and just sitting around and talking with people and just hearing like, their life story and like where they grew up and stuff was something that I like never really thought that I could ever experience and it was definitely eye opening to me. I came to U of T in hopes of studying International Relations. But over the course of going to classes and you know, just figuring out the work, I found that like, my favorite class right now is Russian. I studied Russian in high school. So, I joked with my parents that I might end up becoming a Russian Language Literature major only because that's something that I really enjoy right now.

John: I mean, would it please them or tick them off?

Rebekah: No, I think they'd be, I think that's something they expect, actually. Because like, I love languages, so they they'd be pretty down for it. But I know they'd be more excited if I was an International Relations major.

John: Well, life is long.

Rebekah: Exactly.

Sabrina: So, coming to U of T, my intended major, hopefully, is Ethics, Society & Law, which is headed by Trinity College, with a double minor in Spanish and French. Something that I'm excited to kind of hone, I suppose is like networking and networking skills, which sounds really superficial on the face of it.

John: Oh, I don't think so. I don't think so at all.

Sabrina: Some people say like, you know, it's, you're just going to meet people, whatever. But if it's actually, I wouldn't call it an art. But it's a skill to be able to talk to people and be able to connect with someone in a way that like, you can get their number, get their Facebook and contact them even after months or years of not talking,

Kitsa: I need to learn that. I need to see you for that,

Sabrina: Especially in kind of this -

John: You've just networked. This is it you're just doing it.

Sabrina: in this job market and just kind of like financial climate, and I don’t want to throw too many buzzwords out. But a lot of the times with jobs and just opportunities, it's not so much the skills you have. There's 50 other people with the skills you have, but it's the people you know, and it's what the people you know know of you and what you in particular can bring into that position. The things that they know about you that the interviewer can't get out of a half hour, you know. So I'm just looking, really looking forward to just be better at talking to people and taking in what they're saying to me and remembering names, remembering details, and making actual viable connections.

[The end of the clips from 2017. Now back to the present conversation]

John: Thank you so much, Braeden. So, let me ask for first reactions. My question would be, do you recognize yourself?

Sabrina: Yeah, I do recognize myself. Even though there is there's like changes or the way that things have manifested themselves are different than now, I kind of stated them there. I think the energy behind those words is consistent in who I am now too.

John: Consistent energy. I like it. Kitsa - do you recognize yourself from four years ago?

Kitsa: I mean, it's always weird listening to a recording of yourself. You're like, “Who's that guy? Do I sound like that?” I hate listening to myself. But yeah, it's interesting how, Yeah, it's interesting how the dots kind of connected themselves over the last few years, because I think when I was saying those things, I really believed what I was saying. But sometimes through university, I kind of felt like I was not going in that direction at all. And now looking back, I'm like, Oh, hmm...

Rebekah: Yeah, I think for me, it was kind of interesting because I've listened to this tape before, before we started recording. And I could hear how young I sounded. Or at least in my brain, I feel like I sounded younger. I also could pick up a little bit of maybe shift in my accent, I don't know. Like, that's something that I also could hear listening like very finely. But I think there's just so much excitement behind my voice. And I'm, not to say that I'm not still excited, I just think that the excitement has kind of transformed into something else. Because I had no idea of like what the next three or four years is going to look like for me. And I could have never predicted that we were going to be in a global pandemic. And so just hearing the hopefulness that my voice is trying to make me think that maybe there should be some more hopefulness in my voice right now. Not knowing where I'm going to end up after this year, but just trying to be comfortable with that because she sounds excited and I want to channel that.

John: She does sound excited. Nour - how does, how does the Nour on the tape sound to the Nour who's part of this conversation today? Do you recognize her?

Nour: I feel like I sound so excited and maybe even naive in my excitement. Like, I was like, you know, trying to, I was trying to, like postpone listening to this to like the very last minute before the meeting because I didn't want to cringe. But I think it's like so much, I think um, so much has changed for sure. And I agree with Rebekah that I want to kind of channel that excitement and that energy and hopefulness because you know, I think we all need a little bit more hope during our times. And it's, it's good to think about I guess.

John: Absolutely. Just as I was listening again to the recording, a couple of things jumped out at me. Some commonalities between Kitsa and Nour, and then between Rebekah and Sabrina. And I could listen to it another time and pick up completely different things. But this time around, I really was struck that both Kitsa and Nour, you talked about the palpable excitement of being around such diversity, so many different people have different identities that you were encountering at the university, living in Toronto. And both of you have - Nour, I think you were born in Canada but spent most of your time growing up outside Canada, and Kitsa having been born in Africa and being raised outside Canada. This being a new experience for you four years ago, you both were excited about the variety and diversity of people. Has that excitement, or how has that excitement evolved, at all, if it has over the last four years?

Nour: I think I'm still very excited. But also, like, as I was settling into Toronto, I feel like I had this tendency to talk to or spend more time with people who reminded me of home, who can speak my mother tongue and who I can talk to about, you know, um, culture and, you know, just connecting on that I feel has brought me closer to feeling like I'm safe. And especially during times when I'm feeling overwhelmed with all the differences and, you know, all the differences between home and between Toronto, which slowly started to feel like home to me. But you know, just at the beginning, just sometimes you need to feel that things are not changing too fast. And I think if you connect with people who remind you of home, it can be a great way to slowly transition into a new environment.

John: Right. And diversity doesn't necessarily mean unfamiliar, right? So, it's, you can, you can still, I guess, appreciate the diversity and the variety of people and identities and stories in a particular place, but still kind of gravitate, to sometimes gravitate towards what feels comfortable, or what feels more familiar for, for that sense of home. Which I think everybody, or most people are looking for at some level. Kitsa, what about you, you talked about your appreciation of the diversity of Toronto, but before you talked about that you talked about the loneliness that you were encountering when you had, you know, in the first little while after you had just arrived in Canada. And you know, Canada is this frozen northern country and we're not known for being, you know, super emotional, or effusive people. And I'm just wondering if, well are you willing to share? What is your, how have your perceptions of the people in Canada? How have they evolved over time?

Kitsa: Yeah, I think one thing that I have learned to do, I would see - I'm an architecture student. So, I think I tend to get very picky about the most random things, like oh a new condo came out. It looks terrible. I don't like it. And so, I think, the only thing that really draws me to this city is its people to be honest. Like, thinking back to where I came from, I think one of the most - anyone talking about diversity, it's one thing to refer to diversity in terms of the people. I think the landscape, at least in the GTA is not very diverse. It's just flat and there's like pretty much nothing happening which was rough to adjust to. I remember driving to London, Ontario and for a solid three hours you are driving on a straight line. The sun was up, it was like 10pm at night. I'm like what's going on? And so, I think over the last three years, I have been sort of caught. I've been caught in between this tension of really feeling discontent with being in Toronto, but also really admiring the fact that in Canada, and I think this is not a common thing. You can really be 100% Canadian and one 100% true to your culture and where you come from. And I think that's what gets me really excited about Toronto. That's what really draws me back to this city, is that you get to meet many different people who are just as Canadian as whatever background they're from. And one of my favorite places, I think, is Chinatown. I just love getting through Chinatown and a lot of good food. But yeah, so yeah, in response to being lonely, I think everyone goes through it. It's just different people learn how to deal with it differently. And I do recall in first year, meeting a lot of different people. And that was a lot of excitement. Like Rebekah said, I think it kind of goes away. And so, in second year, I had to, in a sense learn to, have to relearn what relationships mean in the context of Canada, I think. And so, when I came here, I was coming with expectations from back at home. And I wanted, being I wanted my relationships with people here to look like what they did back at home. And so, the different value systems. I think a very simple one is that when you ask someone out back at home, you're like, “hey, let's catch up.” It's given that you're taking care of them. So, you pay for the food, it's all on you. But I think the first time I went to a restaurant with someone near the end and we were getting the bill. The person was like, “yeah, we're splitting the bill.” I'm like, then why did you ask me if you wanted to me pay for my own food? It was so weird. But I think once I learned what the culture was, and once I allowed the culture here to change some aspects of me, then I was able to appreciate it more. And I was able to appreciate a lot of these people who really did care for me, but because my, let's call it a love language. My cultural love language is very different than the cultural love language people use here. Yeah, it was just a bit of a learning process.

John: That's, that's really rich. And by the way, it's been so long since I was in a restaurant, I just want to say that I would pay for all of you just for the chance to be in a restaurant, happily.

Kitsa: I'll keep that in mind.

John: Yeah, no, listen. This is recorded, so you can hold me to it. And Rebekah and Sabrina as I was listening to the two of you, and maybe I was listening for it to be quite honest, because I know a little bit more about some of your interests as they've evolved over the last four years. But you both talked about the importance of stories. In that little clip that Braeden shared with us, Rebekah, you talked about how exciting it was to be around so many different people and their stories. And Sabrina, you talked about wanting to develop the skill of networking in order to be able to talk to other people and to exchange stories with them. And I guess I'm wondering from the two of you, if your appreciation for stories, you know, how has that evolved over the last four years?

Rebekah: I think that's a really interesting question. Because I've always loved talking to people. And I used to joke that if there was a job where I could get paid to travel and talk to people, that's like my ideal job. Because that's all I want to do for the rest of my life. But I've gotten to meet a lot of people from a lot of random experiences, like pre- COVID days, when you can actually meet up in person and like stroll into a random event. Like that was my favorite thing was to just, you know, meet other people and just hear more about like their lives and like what makes them themselves. But I think another thing that I've kind of learned more about storytelling is like learning more about the history of like how stories kind of evolve. Because when I came to Canada, I was really ignorant to most of Canada's history, didn't know anything about it. And I could feel things like through osmosis. Like as I was navigating, you know, life in Toronto, like, Oh, that feels different, or that feels weird. Like picking up on these different nuances, but not really having like the knowledge or the receipts for lack of a better term of like why those interactions and why those encounters kind of situate themselves in that way. And I think through like coursework and through talking to other people and learning more about how they are situated in this place, I've kind of learned more about how history informs storytelling and how people go about expressing themselves with other people. So that's been really eye opening to see kind of coursework and like real life work overlap in that way.

John: Sabrina, what about you? What's your, how has your relationship to stories evolved over the last few years?

Sabrina: Yeah, I think my reverence for stories has only grown over time as exemplified by the fact that I keep reapplying and working as the Hart House Student Podcaster. And also, have just completely changed my career path towards like collecting, gathering and distributing stories. I think I've kind of come to a realization that like pretty much everything is a story. The way that we live our lives are informed by stories that we tell ourselves or that we've been told by others. And that's where a lot of sense of community and identity and self-exploration can come from. And also, I've seen what happens when you completely, when you create structures that are completely devoid of stories as well. And it kind of just turns into like goal-oriented, trying to hit the next milestone, but like not really knowing why. And I think there's like, there's not a lot of life in that. So yes, my respect and relationship with stories has grown a lot, I think, in the past four years.

John: So, Sabrina, you said something intriguing. So, let's stay with you for a minute. You, you mentioned that your career path, your career plans anyway, are changing. So, I'm going to ask each of you recap for us four years ago, what you thought you were going to be when you grow up, or what your plans were four years ago? And then tell us what your plans are now, and maybe account for that shift. So, Sabrina, you first. Four years ago, what did you think you were gonna do? What did you think all of your studies were going to lead to eventually?

Sabrina: I was dreading this question, because I feel like I'm gonna sound like a cliche. But four years ago, if you asked me where I was going, I would have looked you in the eyes, I would have told you that I'm going to become a criminal lawyer. And I'm going to work in the International Criminal Court in New York. And after U of T, I'm going to go to Harvard Law. And you'll live this like life helping people and like, I don't know, like taking names and like breaking down barriers.

John: Marry George Clooney, is that – or does - someone has that life already, I think.

Sabrina: [laughs] I think that that is someone else's life. Yeah, I just looked up Amal Clooney's whole biography and was like, wow, this could be me. And that is not what I would tell you today.

John: So, it's - so don't leave us hanging today. You would...

Sabrina: Yeah, I didn't remember. I didn't remember if that was the second part of the question. But today, in contrast, I’d probably tell you that I am very tired. And don't want to be in another academic institution for like, at least half a decade. So, I'm going to work in media and create audio and like, reconnect with plants and go on hikes, and hopefully get paid to do that, too. And just do like a bunch of things that make me happy on like a soul level. And like, take a nap too. That's kind of what I'm where I'm going now is to like restore my energy and take care of my body.

John: It is not the purpose of this conversation for me to give you advice, but if it were, [laughs] I would say taking a five-year break to reconnect to the soil and plants and yourself and build your soul could eventually make you a much, much better lawyer. And I say that as someone who took a number of years off between undergrad and law school. So, as I said, four years ago, and I've learned nothing in between, I keep saying it - Life is long. Nour, how about you now? Four years ago, you just told us on that clip that you were thinking about medical school, and you were studying Life Sciences? And tell us how that's evolved? You're now doing a double major in Immunology. And did you say Physiology? I forget.

Nour: Yeah, it was physiology.

John: Physiology. So where do your, how have your plans evolved over the last four years? And how do you account for that evolution?

Nour: Um, I was just listening. So, when I was listening to the audio recording of four years ago, I didn't actually remember that I had an interest in going for human biology. So, a lot has changed. I think when I started my undergrad studies, I thought of it all as a stepping stone to my journey into medical school. But it's not that anymore. And I think I came in with this blueprint. And as the years went by, this blueprint kind of changed. And now I want different things. And I was surprised to learn that I just love the science of it all. Like not just as a means to an end, but just in and of itself. And so, I'm hoping to start my master's in Applied Immunology this fall. And I'm really excited. And just to research. I think that's what really makes me so excited. And I really like talking about it. And I just feel very strongly that this is my calling right now.

John: Understanding that I've never taken a science class since grade 12, would, if I asked you to tell us what your area of or your research interests are, would I understand your answer?

Nour: I could try.

John: I am, I am very thick headed. So yes, you'll have to try, try really hard.

Nour: I came in wanting to be an OB GYN. I came into academia wanting to be an OB GYN and I had a very, like, I had an interest in, in children in the first few moments of life and in just the reproductive system of women. And, um, and I still do. And I just think I wanted to, like, do some research about the immunology of that. Like the immune system in relation to the uterus, the placenta. How, just how the microbiome affects fertility. And that's an area that's not very well researched. So, I think there's a lot of work to do there. And I want to be part of that. So, it's exciting.

John: It's, well, it sounds exciting and pertinent. And, like, you know, you - it sounds like a variation, but kind of a close cousin of what you were talking about four years ago. But a really important almost like a honing in on more of a focused way of doing what it is you wanted to do four years ago. Kitsa - What about you? And I remember four years ago, if I'm not mistaken, you were taking architecture related courses and hoping to get into the Daniels Faculty. And now you're a fourth-year architecture student? Am I right?

Kitsa: Yes, you are.

John: So, this would suggest that you are having some success in pursuit of your, your intention. Is that correct?

Kitsa: Debatable success [laughs]

John: Well, you tell us, you tell us. I don't want to put words in your mouth. But how have your, how have your aspirations evolved?

Kitsa: Yeah, um, I applied into the Daniels Faculty at end of first year. Got in. It was exciting. And since then, I've been in this weird situation of being in two years, and sometimes three years at the same time. So, I remember, I think, two years ago, I was like, I think it was last year, in my third year, I was taking classes with third years, fourth years, first years. And second year was basically taking the whole curriculum at the same time, and that was painfuI. But when I was coming to U of T, I felt strongly that I needed to take architecture. That was what I was aiming for. I'm glad that I got in. And I didn't quite know what I was going to do with it. But I think over the years, I've been drawn to storytelling, which a lot of people have been talking about in in this podcast. I think this year, especially. No, I just think of really random opportunities to tell stories and to listen to great stories over my four years at U of T that I would like to do some more of that and yeah, just tell stories. Not very specific. So, I'm hoping John, you can help me tune my answer so that people get something out of this.

John: Well, do you see architecture as a means of telling stories?

Kitsa: I think yeah. I think architecture is, and maybe to geek out about architecture for a bit, I'm more interested in architecture as a cultural object, as an object of shared meaning and what stories we tell through the spaces that we live in. And so that means that I'm drawn to certain types of architecture more than others. And I'm impressed about the more informal, the more organic. I think one of the things that really inspires me is that a couple of years ago, in a lot of different cultures, people designed and built the spaces that they lived in. And I'm always drawn that. Maybe I could end up doing some of that. So, I hope to apply for grad school in 2022. Because I need to finish my degree, and hopefully get in. But I think something that's become even more important for me right now is to, in a sense, create a platform for telling stories. And so just this week, I did a video. Like I did my first film, which was like a five-minute documentary on my background and, and on culture and on race and on why that is important. And it was being showcased during the Relevant Talks that were happening this week, the week of January 18th. And that was great. That was, that pushed me really hard. I stayed up a lot of late nights trying to get that going. And, yeah, that's what I’m trying to do now.

John: I'd love to see that if you're willing to share it after this conversation, I'd love to see. No, definitely, that would be amazing. And architecture, you know, like law, like medicine, it's a long-term commitment, right? Because now in order to practice, as an architect, at least in this part of Canada, I know, you have to have a graduate degree, right? It's no longer, I think years ago, it used to be a five-year undergraduate. And now you've got to have an undergrad and graduate degree. So, it's, you have to really commit to it and presumably love it, at least at some point, in order to make that commitment, right.

Kitsa: I love, I love architecture. I think I love this. I love space. I love how space defines and creates opportunities for people to connect with each other. I'm looking forward to that commitment. I think architecture really opened me up to seeing how objects can sort of be cultural markers and how I want to be part of that story. Or like, Yeah, can, creating that legacy through the objects in the spaces that we use. And I think - so architecture for me, I mean Nour has an amazing experience going into life sciences, and then really zooming in on this one specific area. I think, for me, architecture kind of opened me up to like, a million possibilities. And it's like, so what am I gonna do next? I think the options are limitless. Yeah.

John: Wow. That's exciting. And what about you, Rebekah, tell me about your options. Are they also limitless?

Rebekah: I'd like to believe so. We'll see how that actually pans out. But I guess if you'd asked me four years ago, um, it probably would have been in like the framework of working as like a linguist or translator. Or my parents really wanted me to come back and work for like a government agency and do like, you know, those kinds of analysis type of things. I'm realizing that's not something that I'm kind of reaching for as much. And I'm actually in the process of applying for a Masters in the journalism program. Because I really enjoyed the storytelling that I've gotten to do this year, and like the connections that I've made over the past couple of years in storytelling. So that's kind of where I'm at. But really recently, I think, maybe last week or so, I went to a Black Careers Conference online, that was hosted by the Rotman Commerce Student Association, and listening to some of the people, you know, talking about their trajectory, their, their careers, their platforms, and things like that. I encountered a consulting group, and I didn't know what consulting was. So, I was like, oh, I'll entertain this and see what they're talking about. But the more they were talking about their jobs, and like, how they get to problem solve and like travel and still meet a bunch of different people, I was like, am I now considering a career in consulting? Like, possibly, but not fully firm on that. But I also don't see myself having a career for like 40 years. I see myself like, pursuing these different like passion projects and getting a lot out of them, like for myself, and while also trying to like help other people. And then just kind of redirecting myself based upon like, where my whims go. So, I'm not sold on like being a journalist for 40 years, necessarily. I've just like Oh, maybe we'll try that out, see if it feels good. If it doesn't, then we'll try something else and see where that goes. Because I study history, and my parents really asked me, they're like, so what are you going to do with history? And I told them, I can do anything I want. Because I will be able to write research, critically think about all those things. And I think those are skills that I could apply to any kind of job. But kind of like what Sabrina was saying, like the idea of rest sounds really good. And I really would love to take part in that this year. But in this economy with this pandemic, um, grad school seems like the move because I'm not sure if I'll be able to find a job right after I graduate.

John: Yeah, and I cannot - listen, my heart goes out to everybody who's trying to figure this stuff out. Right now, in particular, there's lots of very accomplished people that have made a career out of consulting or at least have used consulting as an important stepping stone to the rest of their career. Um, I'm curious about, and Rebekah because I know that you are originally from the United States. That is your, your country of birth. I'm, and because as we record this, it happens to be the week in which the Biden Harris administration was, was sworn in. Thank God. And I'm just curious to know what, you know, at this point in your lives - I mean, U of T, university or not, I'm just curious to know, what are your perspectives on the world and how the world has been over the last four years? And how has that affected you? Just, you know, the events of the last four years. Could be the pandemic, could be, you know, political actors. Any number of issues, the climate crisis, which has really been attenuated. The heightening awareness of anti-black and anti-indigenous racism and violence. There are so many things that have really marked the world for all of us over the last four years. I'm just wondering, and Rebekah, maybe I'll start with you. How has the world affected the person that you are now compared to four years ago?

Rebekah: I think that's a really cool question. Because obviously, like 2020 was a whirlwind of a year and so many different things happened. And that's not to say that, like, other things didn't happen the years prior to that. But I think especially what I realized this year, looking back, but like the world, I mean, it's as cliche as it sounds. Like the world is a lot smaller than people tend to make it out to be. And there's a lot of issues that kind of translate across different boundaries and imaginary boundaries, and things like that. And something that comes to mind is like anti blackness. Like anti blackness is a thing that exists literally everywhere, across this entire planet. And so, seeing that kind of come to a head, especially over the summer, was really surprising to see that like, okay, maybe these are conversations that people are going to be more open to having. Maybe people are going to kind of not necessarily, will hopefully check their behavior, but also like, kind of check those assumptions and things that we've kind of just come to rely on as being fact without necessarily questioning where that comes from. Yeah, I've also like, you know, being an American in Canada, like I don't want to take up too much space, and not like kind of, you know conversation. But it's really interesting to see how Canadians sometimes position their own Canadian identity as like an opposition to like what Americans are like. Of course, America had its, all of its own issues happening over this last couple of years with the pandemic included. And I often hear like, oh, at least we're not like the Americans, or at least things are not happening here the way that it is there. And I'm like, a lot of these issues are also very deeply rooted in Canada's history. And they're also very intertwined. And so, I'm listening too, that has been sometimes like, kind of interesting, because even from an American context, like we don't learn too much about Canada, as like part of our history courses. So, there's an extreme lack of - ignorance, I feel like of where we come from on both sides of this coin. And they are a lot more connected than maybe people care to realize. And so, yeah, I just think that over the last couple of years, that's how my framework, I feel like I've just opened my eyes to how a lot of these problems are interconnected. Like, and a lot of them are deeply rooted in colonialism and like imperialist practices. And as a person who studied history, like that's something that I'm always thinking about. And that comes up in my own conversation. So, I think that's really impacted how I think about things.

John: And don't you think that Canadians can use that, that distinction between themselves and Americans as a bit of an escape hatch? Right, like, Oh, we don't have to face up to our own history, or our present practices of oppression, because of this ongoing comparison to the United States. It really is. You know, I think a lot of people fail to hold themselves to account because they have someone else they can point to. I'm curious, Nour, what about you? Someone who has, you know, lived on two sides of the world. And as you speak to us now, you're currently in the Middle East or in Dubai. But with so much that has happened in the world over the last four years, how has that affected you as you've lived your life as a student?

Nour: I think coming to Toronto, from the Middle East, I was mostly surprised by how people as individuals can be very - I mean, they can talk about whatever they want, right? They're allowed not to like the Prime Minister. They're allowed not to like certain things. They're allowed to advocate for social justice. They're allowed to say anything they want to say. And I know it sounds super like obvious to I think a lot of people listening but that this is the case because this Um, I think, like it's it just the way it is there. But in the Middle East. That's not the case. You know that transition, I found was very surprising, and in a good way, right? Because, um, I mean, there is, like, it's just very different I think and just being there, and being part of that and hearing all these different political views, and, you know, just made me feel like I'm being exposed to a whole different world of thoughts and rules, I think, about how to what you can and what you can't talk about…

John: Did the last four years seem particularly kind of tumultuous to you? Like, did you, have you had a sense of worry or, or kind of like existential angst, or? I'm just, I'm just curious to know, with so many dramatic political movements and economic movements and climactic issues, if you have felt those things affecting your ability to live your life, or do they seem kind of removed from you?

Nour: Um they did affect me. Because it's just a dramatic change, like in terms of everything. It's not just geographical, but also in terms of, you know, culture. Just, the weather. It was the first time for me to see snow in Toronto, just so many different things. And that huge transition is stressful. And I think a lot of us have experienced a lot of stress over the past four years, with everything going on. And yeah, I mean, it was it was something very different for me.

John: Sabrina, what about you? What about being a citizen of this particular globe over the last four years? Do you shut that off when you're focused on your schoolwork? Or does it all kind of blend together, and it's hard to escape the craziness that's going on?

Sabrina: Um, it does blend together. I feel like it would be disingenuous to say that I could shut it off. But I can - it's kind of like a yes and no, because I have a lot of privilege and access to resources. And that like, me for example, we've been in zoom University for almost a year now, or a couple months shy and like, I've had a fairly easy transition because of who I am as a person, but also because of like my financial status, and like my housing and all these things that other people don't have access to. So, I feel like even if I, myself were to say, I can shut it off. I don't know, I wouldn't want to also negate the fact that there are people who need more support and resources that they just aren't getting. And then it's, it's not, it's not an easy thing to kind of separate schoolwork from everything that's happening in the world. And I feel like a lot of workplaces and lectures and like even the university itself, is implying that, like, resilience is having the same output now as we had pre-pandemic. And I think that's, I don't know that is, is not taking into account that like, we're all like, this whole society is just made up of human beings, right. And we all are, like, super stressed and working through this kind of unknown time. So that's my answer, which is kind of all over the place. Because like, it's been all over the place, the experience has been all over the place.

John: Does that help at all? Knowing that, as you said, we're all going through this at the same time, given that we're also all very isolated, right? So, we can all, we can often normally say, Well, at least we're all going through it together. But it's hard to develop that sense of maybe going through it together, when we're all isolated in our own little rooms with our own little computers.

Sabrina: No, I agree. And it's like, it's kind of the post that I've been seeing mostly in response to celebrities being like, Oh, COVID is the great equalizer, and then Kylie Jenner is going to France. I mean, I'm like, I can't even walk to the grocery store. So, it's like, we're all in the same ocean. It's like the Titanic, right? Like some of us got on the lifeboats. And we're like, on the way to shore. Some of us are like, on that one door that Jack couldn't get some reason. And some of us are like, in the water, you know what I mean? So, it's like, we're not the same depending on where you are and where I am. And I think as like I relate to the rest of the world. I think it's part of why you were like, well, where are you going to go from here? And it's like, I'm going to rest and return to the land. I feel like there are ways in which I've been playing into a system that like, especially during the pandemic I'm seeing is not, it's not helping those who need those resources the most. Even in Canada, as much as we want to claim like, we're socialist and we do have like social safety nets, but it's still not. It's still failing a significant amount of people that I feel like would be easier to reach out to and help. And seeing the ways that like actual grassroots, like community movements have shown up for those people. And also the ways too that I've realized that like, the reason why I can pursue like, university and like, look at all these theoretical things and like, go on my computer and edit podcasts and stuff is like, even my own survival has been kind of offloaded onto other people, even with the like the fires in California and people not caring about like migrant farmers also, Canada, talking about like, Rebekah and how Canadians kind of ignore our own stuff, right. So, everyone's talking about the migrant farmers in California. Meanwhile, we have Trinidadians here and migrant workers that Canada was trying to kick out of the country with no support in the middle of a pandemic, right, so. And then we had like the Mikmaq Indigenous fishers on the eastern shore. And how all this stuff and me just realizing like, I don't have a connection to the food that I need to eat to like survive, right. Like a lot of my shelters, though, has to do with like other people and other institutions. So, like, due to, through work, I made friends with a Black queer farmer who's super cool. And like part of me returning to Earth is like literally starting to farm and like get back to like stuff that I need to survive that like I've been offloading onto other people, and also largely until like vulnerable populations as well. So that's been me just learning through the pandemic. Like you want to talk about essential workers are, you know, doctors who do get paid relatively well. But then also, nurses, like nurses in long term care homes aren't necessarily getting the support that they need. Personal support worker, also grocery store workers.

John: Grocery store workers, caretakers, the people responsible for all the cleaning protocols, right? I mean, yeah.

Sabrina: So I’m just sitting here up in my house, um, you know, not really worried about my finances. And I see all kinds of posts on Facebook of people who are like, I'm working mad hours at Loblaws, right? Or wherever. Maybe I shouldn't be paying rent, I'm working mad hours at insert store here. And like, you know, my managers just told me that like someone just tested positive for COVID. And then you send me an email, like, I came into work, and then they brought us into this room. And then they told us, and now I need to decide what to do. And I just feel like, yeah, a lot of things are happening in ways that they shouldn't be. And the people who should be, like respected not just in a performative way, but actually in like, a concrete way, are not being respected. Yeah, and I'm trying to figure out where I fit in that and how I can like change things. That was a long answer. I have a lot of thoughts.

John: Listen, it is a complex question and Kitsa, now I'm going to ask it of you. How has the world affected you? And your life as a student over the last four years? How have you managed to separate the world from your own life? Or have they blended together for you?

Kitsa: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I’d write a sort of like a hybrid or like a collage of everyone's experience before me right now, all of a sudden blended into one. I mean, the difference, moving from Nairobi to Toronto, to discovering that the world is so much bigger than I expected it to be, contrary to what Rebekah said. And then having to sort of like, pretend to bear the weight of all of that. And, and then dealing with, with my Blackness, which means a lot of different things to me coming from Africa to someone who's grown up in North America, and also means different things to someone in Canada versus the US versus the UK versus I mean - I think - I took sociology that was a class I was taking when we recorded the first section, and I'm really grateful for that class, grateful for that. If you ever listen to this podcast, I'm shouting you out again, because I remember I did it the last time. But intersectionality really, and I think something that I've been distressed about has been the way that we are socialized, or the way that we are taught to learn and believe the things that we learn and believe. I think, so this brief period of time, during the pandemic, after I finished watching the Social Dilemma on Netflix, where I had like this mini existential crisis and I was like, what if everything I believe and know is not me? What if I've been fed all of these things and that's just what I believe in? That's what I know? Sort of wrestling with that. I think I have been more overwhelmed than I would like to be, But I think at the same time, I have learned to be more grateful, to share gratitude. I have been overwhelmed because I think you hear about stories, you hear about people's experiences, and you feel so powerless, because you don't know how you can sort of begin to help and offer assistance or you can like, and I think when you hear one or two heartbreaking stories, you're like, Okay, I hope it goes well. But when you hear more than just two, and when this story starts to sort of pile on and you're like, wow, there's a lot of people going through a lot of different things. Though, I think the one thing that I would just focus on was the Black Lives Matter movement, that people were coming around during the pandemic. And I think I learned quite a bit from that because, for me, my relationship with race prior to coming to this country was non-existent. And my focus has always been on culture. And so, I think when things were happening, and when people were seeing things, I didn't know how to respond to that at first, because I did not have a type of a conversating, not knowing how to relate to that. And I think I went through this process of listening and learning and allowing myself to feel the extent of it, even though like, it's still somewhat a bit disconnected. And I think on to your comment, John, on Canada sort of offloading things because we are not as bad as the US. And I think that's what a lot of people like to see is that, hey, I'm, compared to this other guy, I'm decent. And I was seeing a lot of posts on Facebook, and they're like, I'm not that racist and, and a bunch of other stuff. But I think when we choose to really take upon other people's pain and let ourselves feel that I think it can change someone. I work at Starbucks right now. And so, every once in a while, I'll be in a store, and we will see some great people and we will see some not so great people. And I mean, oh wait, Brands... Sorry, I'll stop. But there's this training session we had last week, where we got this guy from the US. What is his name? I can't remember, he started the Home Boys initiative, if I'm not wrong. And industries, I think, and it's like I think it's a type of an organization that sort of tries to reintegrate people who have been previously incarcerated into society. And I think it's Home Boys Industries. And like, I think he's a, he's a priest or something. Anyway. So, this is what he said, he said that, when you go into the margins, when you're going to the minorities, when you're going to this group of people sort of being kept at the fringe of society, you're not going there so that you can change them. You’re going there so that they can change you. And that really blew my mind. Because I think that's the first thing I say even at our recap series that I want to change the world. But the truth is, the world needs to change me, and I'm the one that needs to change. And so that's how I've been processing and responding to a lot of these things. Yeah.

John: Wow. I just want to say I want to be all of you when I grow up, I really do. I'm learning so much from each of you. I really, really am. I mean that quite sincerely. I want to ask about success and failure. I'm wondering if your perspective on what success means has changed over the last few years. And then I want to know, if you have learned about failure at all during your time at the University of Toronto, and I'll – it’s not even confessing, but I'll just say that when I was an undergrad, I you know, I read the brochure that said U of T was great and smartest people go there and the smartest people graduate from there. And then I arrived here at the University of Toronto as an undergrad, and everybody was way smarter than I was. And I ended up doing really, really poorly in some of my early classes. And things evened out over time, but I really did have to kind of redefine what success and failure looked like for me over the course of my time at the University of Toronto, and I'm wondering if any of you have any thoughts to share about success and failure and how your understanding of those concepts have evolved over the last few years,

Rebekah: I would say for me, I think I've learned to kind of just like stay in my own lane, if that makes sense. So, like, not trying to compare myself as much to like other people, but comparing myself to like what I know that I'm capable of. So, the success for me would be like, turning in the paper that I feel really good about, and like, also getting a good mark back, but knowing that, like, I actually like worked on it. And then there's papers that like, I know, that I haven't worked really hard on and that I get marks that reflect the work that, like the energy that or the lack of energy that I put into those papers. And that kind of, you know, makes sense to me. But I'm also a residence Don. And so when I talk to my students about like, success and failure at New College, it's like, you know, finding things that you're really passionate about, those are going to be things that you tend to put more energy into, and you'll see more success in those areas. And then things that you maybe are not as passionate about you might not spend less energy on doesn't mean that you're necessarily bad at it, it just means you're not as passionate, and that might sometimes be reflected in how marks work. So, I think when students are choosing programs, I think it's important to pick something that you're passionate about, something that you actually enjoy, and like want to study because I remember first year I was taking an economics course, and I didn't understand it. Didn't like it, didn't want to like actually put energy into it. And that really reflected in my grade. But, you know, I realized that that path that I thought I was set out to be on, that I had come here for, was not actually what I wanted to do, was not what was meant for me. And so, I kind of redirected myself into a place that I actually felt more successful because I was, I felt good about the work that I was producing. And I felt good about, you know, how it made me feel, and it opened my mind to things. So that's kind of like where I'm at with success and failure. It's like a personal journey for me and try not to compare myself as much.

John: Yeah, and even finding something that you're passionate about, that in and of itself is success of a kind.

Rebekah: Absolutely.

John: Anybody else have thoughts on success and failure now that you are veterans at the University of Toronto, Nour How about you?

Nour: Um, well, my dad always told me that sometimes one step backward means two steps forward. And I really believe that and when I struggled with school, I told myself that I was going to measure my progress, not by my GPA, or what marks I was getting, but by just how much I was learning. And that was a game changer for me. Because this is what university is about inherently, it's about learning and just reminding ourselves, I'm just learning that that's what it truly is. And, you know, I had to let go of preconceived notions of who I was and what was expected of me and to understand that I'm a work in progress. And sometimes things will take a detour and my, you know, our paths are not linear. And while this is uncomfortable, it also enables us to build resilience and growth. And that really stays with us for a long time to come I think.

John: That's great. Kitsa, any thoughts on success and failure?

Kitsa: Um, I have learned to take them both. To accept both really high highs and really low lows and to keep going. Yeah.

John: And you need both.

Kitsa: And you need. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't. I guess you need both.

John: Like, I mean, in the sense that if you've never experienced failure, you can't really appreciate success.

Kitsa: No yeah, definitely. I think I have seen people, really, and I have struggled with bad results, I think. And sometimes it feels like you put in a lot of effort and a lot of energy into something and it just doesn't come through. And I think I've learned to be at peace with myself. There's a question I asked myself in second year, and I was like, hey, if you were to fail everything for the rest of your life, would you still be enough? And that was a difficult question to ask. But I think I came to the conclusion that if the answer is yes, then I can move forward. I can move forward knowing that my worth to myself is not dependent on the results that I'm getting. And then maybe I will get great results. Maybe I'll get terrible results. But I am enough. Yeah.

John: You’re enough. Sabrina, what about you, success and failure? What are your thoughts?

Sabrina: Yeah, I think I think I had a similar reaction to you. Or it's like, you come to the University, and then you feel like, you don't belong. Like everyone else is so much more prepared. I think what helped me in relation to how that manifests in failure is once I started talking to people, and not just other students, but also like, relationships I had with profs and like, actual like faculty, and they would also be like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm like, what do you mean you don't know what you're doing? You are like, 10 years older than me, like established in your career. Like, if you don't know what you're doing, like, when am I gonna know what I'm doing? And I think it's helpful to remember that it's like, I feel like no one really knows what they're doing. And we're all just trying to figure this out like one day at a time, whether you're 18, or 25, or 38, or 42, or whatever, or wherever you are in your degree, I think failure too is a learning opportunity, particularly about yourself. I think you get a lot of messages coming into an institution like the University of Toronto about how you should study and how much time you should spend on things and where your GPA should be at if you want to go somewhere else in life. And I think what was super helpful when I would face circumstances where I didn't, the word I'm thinking about is in French, and not in English, but where I didn't -

John: Impress us. put your mind to good use.

Sabrina: This happens every time. It's the word, réussir, I always -

John: Succeed.

Sabrina: Sure, yeah, to succeed - or not - where I haven't succeeded is looking up uncommon ways that other people have gotten to like where I wanted to go. So like with my example of like Harvard Law, if you don't have a 4.0 GPA, and you can think to yourself, like that's what you need. Like, go research other ways people have gotten into like top law schools, if that's really what you want to do. But you feel like you've strayed off of that path, because there's always that one person that's like, I don't know, I just kind of walked in and like, I went to class, and then they enrolled me. So now here I am.

John: Yeah, and they gave me a full scholarship. And here I am. Exactly.

Sabrina: Yeah, yeah. And then thirdly, I think, something I struggle with even today is like, just because you say something, and you tell people you're gonna do something you set your mind to do it, doesn't mean that you're not allowed to change course. Like it's not set in stone. I have problems with that. And like, everyone's gonna think I'm a fraud if I changed my mind. No one cares.

Nour: Yeah, you feel like you'll disappoint them, right? I feel the same way.

Sabrina: Yeah, no, exactly. And I think it reminds me that it's like, no one cares about the trajectory of my life as much as I necessarily think they do or judging me as much as I necessarily think they do. And I know like, like I, especially families can be overbearing, and like this may not really be someone who's like parents are like banking on like your life to be a certain way. But I'm talking about like, even just like friends and acquaintances, like someone that I talked to once on the first day of class, and I'd be like, well, I told them, I was going to be a lawyer. So, if I run into them five years from now and find out that I'm something else, they're gonna think I'm a fraud. Like that is not a rational thought. That's my advice.

John: So speaking of advice, and this is where I want to end, I wonder if very, in fairly quick order, each of you could give a word of advice to yourself before you started school four years ago. So think back to when we spoke, and then a few months before that, when you were just about to embark on your studies at the University of Toronto, but knowing what you know now, give a word of advice to that younger version of you.

Rebekah: Younger Rebekah, I would tell her to not talk so much and to just listen, because I love to talk. I could to talk to a wall. But you know, just take that time. Listen to what other people have to say before you jump in with your thoughts. Still working on that.

John: So Kitsa a word of advice to younger you.

Kitsa: Yeah. Sup Kitsa. You're cool. No, I'm kidding. Ah, yeah.

John: You're allowed to say that!

Kitsa: I mean - debate- Okay. You're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. And treasure, the friendships and the relationships that you have now. If, and if they don't last forever, even if they're not what you thought they would be.

John: Nour, what about you, advice to yourself four years ago?

Nour: I would tell myself to please talk to my professors one on one. I would want to go to office hours and get to know them. And I think this is especially important when the time comes when you need a recommendation letter. But not only if you need a recommendation letter, I think in and of itself, it's a very enriching experience to speak to your profs and, you know, they were once in your shoes, and a lot of them are very, or they're very happy to help. And I think I urge anyone listening to take the time and, you know, get out of their comfort zone. And especially if you need a recommendation letter. I personally struggled to get some people to write for me. So, I would go back and I would talk to my professors.

John: Very practical and very valuable advice for everybody. But particularly for the younger. Nour. And what about the younger Sabrina?

Sabrina: Yeah, if I could speak to myself, four years ago, I would probably tell myself to, or I’d definitely tell myself to share my struggles and open up to where I was having issues, especially as a fourth year like navigating my own studies and the university as a whole. I think speaking to failures that I, that wanting to not appear like a fraud and wanting to feel like you fit in, I think makes a lot of people feel like they can't talk about where they are failing or are struggling, because then they don't want people to think that they're struggling like a struggling person. But I think, where I did fail, or where I did need, or where I didn't succeed where I wanted to, it would have been less painful and less permanent, if I was just like open about it. And I reached out to people and I was like I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what's going on, please help me. And I learned that the hard way. So definitely be more open about when you need help.

John: That's great advice from you. And from all four of you. You know, just recently, the film director Michael Apted passed away at the age of 69. And he was famous for a series of films that he made called the Seven Up series. And he was based in the UK. And he had a group of children that he interviewed, the same group of children. He interviewed and filmed them and did a documentary about them every seven years. So, when they were 7, when they were 14, when they were 21, 28. And he did that all the way up into their, I think into their 40s, 50s, at least. And then he passed away just recently, and in tribute to him, and I may not hold you to this, but I'd love it if you would all come back. in four years.

Kitsa: Let's do it!

Nour: Yeah, let's do it!

John: So that we can, so we can find out where you are. And we could check in on things like success and failure and give advice to, to the 2021 version of you and all of those sorts of things. And wherever you are, I hope that you are healthy and happy. And that you're smiling more than you're not. And I'd like to thank all of you for your time. You're being, you've been so generous with us. And on behalf of everyone at Hart House. We're very grateful.

[outro music plays]

Rebekah: Thank you for listening to this week's episode. I would like to extend a sincere thank you to John and the team over at Hart House for inviting us to participate in this conversation a few years ago and for agreeing to join us for this reunion piece. To Kitsa, Nour and Sabrina for reflecting on their experiences over these past few years. And of course, our amazing producer Braeden for interweaving this audio time capsule. Be sure to check out our other episodes @harthousestories on Soundcloud and Instagram and follow us on Twitter @hhpodcasting. Take care.

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

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Ep 45 Exploring the Escarpment and Hart House Farm

Broadcast Dec. 5, 2020

SPEAKERS: Maxwell, Sabrina, Kristen

[Intro Music]

Sabrina: Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room. Today's episode is hosted by me, Sabrina, one of the producers of the show. I am so so excited to share a piece that I put together from audio that I captured on a trip to Hart House Farm. For the next half hour, you are invited to come on a journey with myself and two of my friends as we explore somewhere we had never been before, get some fresh air, and chat.

[The following is a recording of the sounds of an outdoor adventure on Hart House Farms. Imagine the crunch of leaves in autumn, the cold wind, and laughter under the trees as you read.]

Kristen: Well are you going to talk about reptiles then?

Sabrina: We can eventually. Okay, say something, Kristen.

Kristen: Hello. Hello. How are you?

Sabrina: I'm good. How are you?

Kristen: I'm doing great. We have Maxwell over here in the corner. He is...

Sabrina: He is walking away. I need to turn up the input level.

Kristen: Wow.

Sabrina: Okay, I'm recording again.

Kristen: Okay, drones are actually kinda cute though.

Maxwell: Until they are shooting at you from the sky.

Sabrina: I don't think it's that kind of drone.

Maxwell: I know.

Sabrina: You know.

Kristen: Do you really?

Maxwell: Okay. Are you recording?

Sabrina: I am recording.

Maxwell: Should we go?

Sabrina: Yeah. I just want to record the adventure, because I don't really know what it is. Wait, are we going inside?

Kristen: Yeah. Because he wants to ask where the path is to go.

Sabrina: Okay. So for anyone who doesn't know, by now, we are trying to find some ponds,

Kristen: and a sauna

Sabrina: and a sauna, because apparently like you can, if you wish, swim in the ponds. It is like three degrees outside. So I don't know who in their right mind is swimming in these ponds. Literally the guy who's giving us his introduction, he was like, if you're swimming, be careful, because it is very cold, and you could go into shock. It's like, this is when you close down the water. So anyway, there's a pond. The high in this area today is five degrees. Five degrees celsius.

Kristen: Wow. Those are pretty. What are those are white flowers.

Sabrina: How many acres of land did it say that they owned? Online? I looked it up. I'm gonna guess it said 100 and something but I could be lying.

Kristen: Honestly, I don't know how much an acre is.

Sabrina: Yeah, I don't know how to gauge an acre. I think that's the biggest problem. Like I don't, I don't know what an acre is. So, ah, multiply that out to the space area, but it's very big it's very expansive.

Kristen: And I also don't know what the numbers mean to begin with.

Sabrina: That's a good point. There's like, a nice- I was gonna say a farm. It's not like a farm, like they don't grow anything. There's an orchard.

Kristen: Yeah.

Sabrina: But is it an orchard because you UofT is like, let's tend to these apples. Or did they just come across this land? And they're like, Oh, awesome. Like, here's some apples like, let's cultivate it. Okay, this looks like a ditch. Like, this is where you throw bodies.

Kristen: There's a little pathway this way Okay, honestly.

Sabrina: There's a pathway? There we go.

Kristen: Over here.

Sabrina: Yeah, I want more crunching noise.

Maxwell: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah, very satisfying, you know? We are the ones crushing things.

Sabrina: Facts, also when the wind comes in...

Maxwell: We'll go in that corner? Are you getting a crunch?

Sabrina: I am getting a crunch. It's weird because there's so many varying noises. There's your voices, which are quiet depending on how far you are. And then there's the crunch. And then there's the wind, which is like, loud no matter what you do. I might get a picture of those on our way back. So we finally found the path.

Kristen: This is a much nicer path. Then the one we were walking

Maxwell: It's was all the way up, we could have avoided all that.

Sabrina: We weren't even on a path. We were just in the middle of a field. Do you guys want to do a thing for me? Okay, Kristen. Can you just like, describe where we are, describe what you see, describe what you smell, if you smell anything, describe how it makes you feel. Describe why you want to be here, why you don't want to be here.

Kristen: It's cold. We are walking on very dry pieces of grass that are almost like sticks at this point. There's a variety of trees around. And they are quite beautiful actually. Although I wish there were more leaves on the ground for us to step on. That'd be fun. The crunch would be nice. It's pretty peaceful out here. I would say like the air is actually significantly cleaner than the air in the city. So I can appreciate that.

Sabrina: Is it like the BC air that you left at home? And you're like, wow, the water tastes better. The air smells better. Is this what this is like?

Kristen: Yes, yes, this is exactly what it's like. And it reminds me of being home except I didn't live on a farm. So it's a little bit different, but it's pretty similar anyway.

Sabrina: Thank you. Okay, now we need to find this sauna. But the crunche is nice, it's like autumn.

Kristen: Yeah, but it hurts.

Sabrina: Oh, is it because you have the stockings on?

Kristen: Hmm?

Sabrina: Because you have the socks on?

Kristen: No, it hurts because what's the word? Like, you know, when you step- and they are dry so like, it's like more like sticks that you're stepping on?

Sabrina: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah.

Sabrina: Hi.

Maxwell: Hi.

Sabrina: Do you want to say something?

Maxwell: The trees are so pretty.

Sabrina: That was Maxwell

Kristen: Did you just say the trees are so pretty?

Maxwell: Yes.

Sabrina: The gloves I bought, brought, were not the warmest gloves I own. I feel like I have regrets. But it's fine. No regrets, right.

Kristen: This is mud... This is what it is like to live in the wild. You won't have the nicest gloves of you.

Sabrina: That's for sure. This is like the conditions and I was like, Hey, Mom, I think I'm gonna try hunting. And she was like, Ah, you can't even sit outside in like two minutes of rain. This is like the kind of weather that like, I'm literally going to go hunt for like, one week out of the entire season and then any adverse weather and I'm like, okay, we're done.

Kristen: Packing up. My arrows are gone.

Sabrina: Yeah, like I better catch a deer like these five days because after this, this is a wrap.

Kristen: No horses.

Sabrina: No horses.

Kristen: Okay, there's a fork here.

Sabrina: Oh!

Kristen: But I don't think this is the fork we want because they're pointing that the ponds go that way.

Sabrina: Okay so let's just follow the signs she said to follow.

Kristen: This is a nice little downhill walk. There's a cliff right there, which means if you don't see me anymore, this is what happened. I fell, and I cried, and I just laid there.

Sabrina: I'm gonna make this like the preview of the episode- [laughing]- oh my god, I almost died. I literally almost twisted my ankle. Okay, anyway, I'm gonna make that the, um, preview of the episode. It's gonna be like, it's gonna start it's just me, Kristen, like "there's a cliff right there and if I don't come back, you know, I ended up. Dead. At the bottom of a cliff". So Max, come here. Tell me what you're seeing. Tell me what you're feeling. Tell me how you're enjoying the space.

Maxwell: It's good. There's a lot of leaves. The nature's nice. It's a little cold out but like not terrible. But other than that it's just nice to be outside.

Sabrina: This is like steep. This is like when they said it wasn't accessible. I was like, oh yeah, there's like a couple steps. Like no like I'm about to take a tumble and ruin all of this recording equipment. We found the pond, we found a pond.

Kristen: One of two ponds

Sabrina: Was it two ponds or three ponds?

Kristen: I think two and then a sauna.

Sabrina: Two ponds. Okay, that's exciting. There's like a deck. There's some trees, the pond looks kind of questionable. You could get leeches but like it it looks okay.

Kristen: We're in the middle of nowhere and I need to pee.

Sabrina: I feel like honestly peeing in the middle of nowhere is better than peeing in those out houses.

Kristen: Okay I'm going to go to the corner

Sabrina: Okay, I'm gonna cut this out of the audio. Okay, let's go max

Kristen: I've never peed in an outdoor area. Wait wait, Max, do you have napkins?

Maxwell: Oh true [Inaudible]

Kristen: [Laughing]

Maxwell: Is Kristen still alive? I haven't heard a ruffle in a while.

Sabrina: [Inaudible]

Kristen: We stan a nice pond.

Sabrina: So we're at the pond. Would you swim here?

Maxwell: Aaaa, questionable. A little murky.

Sabrina: I don't want to go too close to the water because I'm afraid I can't really feel this with my gloves. And next thing you know, the whole system just gets yeeted into the pond. So, you know,

Maxwell: but it looks good from a distance. Not with me in it. Not with me in it.

Sabrina: It looks, it looks pretty Zen. I think it's kind of like a body of water that I wouldn't necessarily want to go in but something that I want to look at.

Maxwell: But it's not clear like those bodies of water where you see it and like it's so clear it's reflecting everything and stuff.

Sabrina: I think you're talking about a pool, a man-made pool

Maxwell: No, in the mountains.

Sabrina: How much time you spend in the mountains?

Maxwell: None in my life but, like, I've seen pictures.

Sabrina: You're saying you want to go to the mountains?

Maxwell: Yeah.

Sabrina: When?

Maxwell: Not now.

Sabrina: Oh, okay. So I'm gonna give you the recording thing cause I want to take a picture. Don't drop it in the water. Talk to the people. Interview Kristen.

Kristen: You probably would actually end up finding leeches in here.

Sabrina: You're not, you need to point it at her mouth. Interview Kristen, Maxwell.

Maxwell: Why isn't she saying anything?

Sabrina: You need to interview her.

Kristen: You need to ask questions.

Maxwell: So how is your little adventure?

Kristen: It was, it was great. Um, nature is nice. Um, this pond. You could probably find a leech in here. Leeches are actually quite small. And the big ones you see are not all of the leeches available in the world. So you could be bitten by a leech without knowing it.

Maxwell: Have you ever seen leech?

Kristen: Yes, I tried to hold one actually. Didn't end well. Basically, I was in a lab. And they had leech specimens in there, in jars. And I put my hand in the jar. And I was trying to pick it up. But obviously if it's in water, it's like slippery, and it's swimming around. And it's just a real struggle. So I tried to grab it. And then it started freaking out. And then I started freaking out. So I dropped it and then I was just like, this isn't happening. But I will tell you. If somebody was to give me a leech outside of water, I would hold it.

Sabrina: Okay, and I'm back. Let's go. Let's go find this sauna. I'm a little afraid to go into the sauna to be honest, with regular clothes. Because then everything's gonna get hot and you're gonna feel significantly colder when you come back out.

Kristen: I really have no idea what to expect.

Sabrina: Have you never been in a sauna before?

Kristen: No.

Sabrina: It's just a very hot room.

Maxwell: I haven't either.

Sabrina: I would not suggest spending extensive amount of time in it. Because walking back to the house is going to take a long time and you're going to be twice as cold. Max, I have a question for you.

Maxwell: Yeah.

Sabrina: Is your neck cold?

Maxwell: No.

Sabrina: Your neck is not cold?

Maxwell: I don't wish I had a scarf right now because a scarf would be terrible.

Sabrina: So you're telling me that your neck is not cold at all?

Maxwell: Like I could be decapitated because my scarf got stuck in the escalator.

Sabrina: So what you're saying is, you don't have a cold neck.

Maxwell: Like, it's not going to be warm. Like, I never said it was warm. But like it's not frozen?

Sabrina: And that was Maxwell with internal temperature. Next week, we will be talking about reptiles. And the best way to store them in your house. See you next time. Sabrina Brathwaite

Kristen: It looks like there is a dam over here.

Sabrina: Ooo, do we wanna go investigate?

Kristen: Sure

Sabrina: Okay, lead the way Kristen, because you saw.

Kristen: I would hold it!

Sabrina: Hold what?

Kristen: A leech.

Sabrina: Oh. I don't think anyone's doubting you.

Maxwell: [Inaudible]

Kristen: You don't know that. I could tell you were judging me, Maxwell.

Maxwell: I was just surprised where that went.

Sabrina: No, that was a good story, though.

Kristen: I actually have a video of me holding the leech, well trying to. It was clearly unsuccessful.

Sabrina: Wait, did they like sterilized the leeches or something? So they don't suck your blood? Or is it like

Kristen: No, they feed. But they've been fed already. You know, leeches, they can hold up to five times the amount of liquid in their body as blood. They expand so much that when they are full, they are incredibly fat. So you know when you need to feed a leech and you know when you don't need to.

Maxwell: But does it still not bite? Or like...

Kristen: Oh, it bites if you irritate it. Or if you like, held on to it for too long. You're poking at it. But, otherwise, if it's okay, if you've only held it for a little bit, it's not gonna bite

Sabrina: Sounds like me when I'm hungry. Anyway, the battery in this pack? Oh my god.

Kristen [Inaudible]

Sabrina: No, my like foot. My foot slid when I was walking. There's moss everywhere. There's dead trees. It's really loud. I don't understand why anyone would hunt in autumn, like the animals can hear from ten miles away like

Kristen: You know, I really don't actually know what a dam looks like. But that's pretty dam-y.

Sabrina: I just walked into a branch. That doesn't look like a beaver-made dam.

Kristen: Upon, further inspection, it is not a dam.

Sabrina: So it's been verified. It's not a dam... I'm stuck in these trees, man. Max's neck might not be cold, but mine is.

Maxwell: You're wearing a scarf.

Kristen: Yeah,

Sabrina: I think it's because I'm talking and breathing in the air through my mouth.

Kristen: And you have asthma.

Sabrina: And I have asthma. Fun fact, I don't like unsupervised children and my lungs don't like me. More specifically they don't like breathing properly.

Maxwell: Oh, is that the other lake?

Sabrina: Looks like you could drown in the second pond.

Kristen: This is why he said that we shouldn't swim if we don't know how to swim.

Sabrina: Literally everyone in our group does not swim that well. Well, one of us doesn't know how to swim at all. No one brought bathing suits. Two of us have heavy backpacks and electronics in them, think it's a great day to jump in the pond.

Kristen: Yes.

Sabrina: Forget the cliff. It's been confirmed that we've made it this far. But if you don't hear from us again, it's because we went into the pond, got hyperthermia, and died.

Kristen: Or we went into the sauna, and we got incredibly dehydrated, and died.

Sabrina: Is this the sauna? What does that say?

Kristen: Sauna.

Sabrina: Oh. Oh, it does. I thought it said, like, shrimp.

Kristen: I really like Shrimp.

Sabrina: Shrimp is nice.

Kristen: Yeah.

Sabrina: Shrimp.

Kristen: Although, did you know that you're supposed-? Oh, there are three ponds.

Sabrina: See, I knew it was three.

Kristen: You're supposed to be quite wary when you're having shrimp in sushi, because they don't often de-gut the shrimp. So the shrimp will be dead. But there will still be fecal matter in their system. And you can eat that without knowing it.

Sabrina: That's gross.

Maxwell: Is it safe?

Kristen: I mean, no one's died from it from what I know. But I don't think it's pleasant to eat fecal matter.

Sabrina: That's where you're wrong. All right.

Kristen: Oh, wow, she's steamy!

Sabrina: She's steamy. We're gonna go into the sauna, gonna turn this off because steam is water. And this is technology. Welcome to life advice rant. Welcome to life is- welcome to life advice lamp with Kristen De Los Reyes. Today she's going to tell us a few good things about being small.

Kristen: Not necessarily two good things, but two things about being small. Earlier, Max was saying that the most likely way for us to die at this point is if a tree fell on us. As a small person, it would probably be pretty easy to avoid a tree falling on you. But as a small person, if a tree fell on you, you'd just be dead. So, you either do well or you don't. That's my two things about being small.

Sabrina: That's life, folks. The battery on this thing is like going. I think it's because it's cold outside?

Kristen: Yeah.

Sabrina: Alright.

Kristen: Extreme temperatures will make your battery die.

Sabrina: It's time to put it away.

Sabrina: Thank you so so much to Max and Kristen, my two friends, for letting me record those moments at the farm. We had gone two years ago and it was a lot of fun returning to this audio and putting it together. A special thank you to Day, Braeden, and the rest of the Hart House Student podcaster team for help in producing the show. Our intro/outro music was produced by Dan Driscoll and, as always, a huge thank you to you, our amazing listeners. We love to hear from you. You can follow us on Instagram @HartHouseStories or on Twitter @HHPodcasting. We also archive all of our episodes on soundcloud at soundcloud.com/HartHouseStories. Before I go, I want to thank you so much for listening. We'll be back next week with The West Meeting Room.

#exploring #harthouse #harthousefarm #outdoors #adventure #cold #pond #lake #leaves #leech #friendship #freshair

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

Text

TWMR Ep 48 No Body-Mind Left Behind

SPEAKERS

Alex Locust, Jheanelle Anderson, Beau Hayward, Alisha Krishna, Janine Al Hadidi,

Facilitated by Day Milman

Janine

Hello, and welcome to the West Meeting Room. We are broadcasting on CIUT 89.5 FM at Hart House. My name is Janine and for this week's episode, we'll be sharing a recording from November 19, 2020 of a panel discussion about Disability Justice titled No Body/Mind Left Behind. This event was a partnership between Hart House and the annual Diversity and Equity conference from U of T Sport and Rec and the Faculty of Kinesiology and Physical Education. My colleague Day Milman facilitated this conversation between U of T students, recent alumni and special guest, Alex Locust, where they explored how Disability Justice creates a framework for society that benefits everyone. More information about this event, and all of its panelists will be available in our show notes. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did.

Day Milman

Welcome, everybody tonight. My name is Day Milman. I am the manager of Learning and Community at Hart House, which is the community center of the University of Toronto. And I am so excited to be here as part of this event tonight. Thank you so much for joining us for what promises to be a rich intersectional conversation grounded in lived experiences of people with disabilities. Tonight we'll explore Disability Justice and how this lens can radically alter how we navigate the world and support each other on this journey. Tonight's conversation is a panel discussion between U of T students recent alumni and our special guest Alex Locust, also known as The Glamputee. So Alex is a certified rehabilitation counselor and a proud multiracial glamputee spreading the word about social justice one workshop at a time. Whether on the runway, or in a counseling session, Alex aspires to emulate the tenacity of the trailblazers before him and fiercely advocates for equity in all community spaces. Thank you, Alex, so much for coming tonight. And I'd also like to invite our panelists to introduce themselves tonight starting with Jheanelle Anderson.

Jheanelle Anderson

Thank you Day, I'm Jheanelle, I am a recent graduate, just completed my MSW at the Faculty of Social Work at U of T. I sit as a co-chair of the Disability Justice Network of Ontario, in Hamilton. Yeah, and I'm a research assistant with the Center for Research and Innovation for Black Survivors of Homicide Victims. Really excited to be here tonight and have this discussion, much needed discussion. Thank you.

Alisha Krishna

Hi, everyone. My name is Alisha Krishna, I use they them pronouns. I have lived experience with learning disabilities, mental illness, physical disability. So identifying as disabled is my identity. I'm a first year law student at U of T and also the treasurer of Students for Barrier Free Access, which is a levy funded group on the U of T campus. And we're run by and for disabled students, advocating for the removal of barriers in education. And I also am very excited for tonight.

Beau Hayward

Hi, all my name is Beau Hayward, pronouns are he and him. And I am part of the Diversity and Equity team as the Equity Initiative Student Lead, a student leader and I'm looking to work with the university and develop some accessibility around athletics and physical education. And very excited to have this conversation with Alex and the rest of the panelists.

Day Milman

Thanks, everybody. Thanks so much for being here tonight and for sharing your energy and your experiences. So let's just start off with a question for Alex. In a previous conversation, you said to me that Disability Justice is like a north star in the work that you do. Maybe not everyone here is familiar with Disability Justice, and I'm wondering if you could just start off by giving us a bit of a grounding in what Disability Justice is and how it plays out in your life.

Alex Locust

Absolutely. I am just so happy to be here. And after our conversation last week, I was just like, humming and so it's just always wonderful to be in conversation with other people with disabilities and so I'm really happy to share what Disability Justice means to me and explore that in relationship with each other. I also just want to quick pause and offer an invitation if the other panelists are interested in just offering an image description for those who who are tuning in and don't have the ability to see us right now. I'm biracial, as Day mentioned, I've got my big curly mane back in a, in a little ponytail, very much in my pink paradise with my "She's All Fat" shirt that I'm very happy to be wearing. Lots of lots of scruff, it's been a long week. So just offering that really quickly, just so, you know, model access, right, that's a huge part of Disability Justice is that collective access piece, but as a north star for me, you know, I came into an understanding or awareness of Disability Justice through Sins Invalid, in the Bay Area, Patty Burn as the director of Sins Invalid, the performing arts group of queer and trans, black and brown disabled people performing beautiful pieces about about their bodies, their minds, their sexuality. And what I came to learn was that Disability Justice was an evolution of disability, civil rights, much like, you know, reproductive justice is an evolution of reproductive rights, you know, environmental justice, right, these frameworks that are acknowledging that, champions, changemakers, these advocates, came before us and really broke open a dialogue, broke open space, to acknowledge that, you know, in this case, disabled people were not being afforded the rights that they deserved. And then Disability Justice is acknowledging that rights are great, you know, as a bare minimum, but when we're thinking about what liberation feels like, what freedom feels like, we have to attend to the nuances within the community. You know, there are black and brown disabled people, there are queer disabled people, you know? As a as a black, queer, disabled person, I feel very seen by that. And, you know, it's about exploring the liberation of disabled people from an intersectional lens, and from one that's by led by the most impacted, right, so Patty Berne, Mia Mingus, LeRoy Moore, Sebastian Margaret, Eli Claire, the late Stacey Park, right, these amazing people came together and proposed these 10 Principles of Disability Justice, which are saying, you know, this is how we collectively, everybody, not just disabled people, you know, Disability Justice isn't just for disabled people, it's for everyone. That's, I think where that title really speaks to me, it's no body left behind. It's not about how you identify or what your label is. This is this is for all of our freedom.

Day Milman

Yeah, absolutely. That's where the title for this conversation came in was. "No body, no mind left behind" was directly from the principles which were developed by Sins Invalid, which you can look up. And I'm wondering if we can ask some of the other panelists to sort of talk a little bit about their experience and how Disability Justice works in their lives.

Alisha Krishna

And I can go first, just image description, I'm in my bedroom in Toronto. I'm Indian, Canadian, I have long black hair, I'm wearing a hoodie. And I have glasses as well. Discovering Disability Justice, it's taken me a long time. So I've been with SBA for three years. And I've really been in this for three years. And it's never a finished process. Like I still go to events that we host and workshops and stuff, and I still always learn something about myself and the way I relate to people. But in terms of what I have learned, instead of what I have yet to learn, what I hold on to most is the fact that, you do as much as you can, and that's okay. They tell you this in law school a lot, where it's very high pressure and people have a lot of trouble with this and I understand it completely. But living as a disabled person, you actually just do what you can, and it turns out that disabled people are so good at negotiating these boundaries, that what you end up doing is amazing anyways, right? Just objectively speaking, so there's there's a lot to be said for taking care of yourself, taking care of others around you. Others like being able to ask for help when you need it. And looking at the long term sustainability of things, I think that's really powerful, and I think that underpins a lot of what I try to do in my practice, but what I think everyone is attempting to do, at least in my law school Disability Justice circles.

Jheanelle Anderson

So, Disability Justice was quite a new concept for me. And, you know, it was like, Alex framed it, liberating, you know, engaging in that work. Prior to that, you know, I held on to a lot of internalized ableism, I am a black, immigrant and disabled woman. And, you know, a lot of my journey to Canada was traumatic, but also resulted in me having to lose a leg to come here, in a sense. And then, you know, over the years, I developed a chronic illness. And, you know, just drawing back to what Alisha said, just being able to not see yourself as a burden. Moving away from what society has, like, you know, ingrained in me growing up as a kid with disability, trying to, like, not look different, or trying to prove myself was always that constant struggle. Um, but, you know, learning and confronting that internalized ableism, you know, I, I should be valued, you know, we should move away from this deficit view of disability, because, like, it's the external factors that exacerbate how I like, I'm able to participate in society. So that's definitely one way. Disability Justice has, like, influenced me. And in my work, you know, I am a member and co-chair of the Advisory Committee for the Disability Justice Network of Ontario. And it's exactly what, as Alex described it, you know, Disability Justice is not just for disabled folks, it is for everyone. You know, everyone benefits from accommodation, everyone benefits from accessibility. It's not just for disabled people. Mutual aid, you know, what came from this Disability Justice movements, you know, care mongering, is a response to the shortages from COVID. You know, that mutual aid, again, disability, like ran by disabled folks. And just like another point, I'll just mention the site with COVID, it really did lay bare, all the disparities, all the inequities, but more so, you know, what disabled folks have been advocating for was always like, looked as at as a burden. Like, no, we can't do that, you know, you know, it factors in, because probably because they can't surveil employees as well. But it was always a barrier for institutions to implement these things. But then with COVID, you know, the capitalists are like, oh, or money. So, you know, these things that disabled folks have been advocating, and getting shut down for has now been implemented, like at the switch just like that. So, you know, these are things that are addressed, and can be addressed with Disability Justice. Thank you.

Beau Hayward

Thank you so much, Jheanelle, I think that you, you know, with remote education and remote work, coming to the forefront due to COVID. Luckily, I just started going back to school, so I was able to kind of get right into the swing of things that way. But definitely think that because people are isolated due to COVID, it brings attention to these things that disabled folks have been working towards for a long time. I'd like to ask Alex a question. Alex, we talked about this previously, but on your website, it said, you have a quote saying that "it's high time we leave disability awareness and etiquette conversations in the past." Moving forward, the Diversity and Equity Sports and Rec, we're looking to implement like a ski day, which I know we talked about last time and we're doing like a bocci team event and we're just trying to implement some new sporting initiatives, so intersectionality and leaving behind that disability awareness and etiquette, do you have any suggestions for us moving forward?

Alex Locust

Yeah, you know, hearing that that quote of mine, again, I realized that that quote was kind of almost like a self-drag, you know, I used to, when I was doing the workshop years ago, have a section called, like, disability etiquette, or I would, you know, market what I was doing is like a disability awareness training, you know, so, I was a part of, you know, Jheanelle talked about internalized ableism, like, I was a part of that machine. And I think what I realized over time is like, why am I perpetuating this idea that disabled people are people that we should, like, become aware about? How are you unaware? What, I just want to know, like, how anybody can be in a state at this point in time, you know, and be like, I didn't know that disabled people existed, I didn't know that we needed access features. You know, I mean, in the US, the ADA was signed days after I was born. And so I'm like, I'm the ADA years old, you know,, when people say, "Oh, you know, this place is inaccessible, we're having a hard time" I'm like, times ticking, like, it's been three decades, you know, and, and that's just for legislation. So, when you hear people quote the census data or things that are like disabled people are like a quarter or a fifth of the population in the US, it's like, disability is such a normal, inherent part of the human experience, that to categorize the need to like become more inclusive as an awareness effort, or etiquette is so othering and it's so divorced from like, the reality of what's going on. It's just almost, it's kind of playing into this game that people can keep, like, saying. Well, I had no idea, you know, like, I need you to get an idea. I saw someone in the chat mentioned, Leah Lakshmi Piepzna-Samarasinha work, and Leah has, you know, that that conceptualization of like, that you need to figure it out, because you're going to become disabled someday, if you get old enough. The four of us, we're already at the party. You know, people are outside waiting in line, you know, we got the VIP passes. We're already in, we're in the booth, right? To your question, about moving past etiquette, past, awareness, like we, we just need to baseline, like, focus on efforts, like, you know, Alice Wong's accesses love campaign, like, everything should just be accessible period, that should be the bare minimum, we shouldn't be putting out events, we shouldn't be doing gatherings, we shouldn't be creating community spaces that are inaccessible anymore. It's just, it's, you know, unforgivable. And I think for people tuning in, if you are non-disabled, and you're looking to like, earn that ally-ship card, this is a time to be like, "Hey, friend, you're hosting a really cool party. I don't see any mention of access here" or like, "hey, this gathering looks really amazing. Can you put some access features in in the description?" How are you showing up for that, and then to elevate beyond just the bare minimum access, you know. Disability Justice invites us to lead by the most impacted. So if you're starting a space from scratch, are disabled people involved in the planning or their voices, you know, if you're doing community advisory boards, if you're having people contribute, if there are no disabled people present, it's very likely that you will not succeed at making it as accessible as it needs to be. And I just think that, you know, representation matters. You know, we talked about that last week, like not just at the beginning, but throughout the process. If you're doing a ski day, having disabled ski instructors, if you're, you know, in a fitness center having disabled personal trainers and coaches. I think they're really communicate to the people you're inviting into this space. It's not just this like you know, little feather in your cap that you're like, Look, we did it, like "wink", we got we got the logo or you know, it's like, no, we will not survive as a community unless we integrate the lived experiences of the people that we're trying to reach out to and last piece about, you know, that Leah inspired me, in that piece, they have a piece, like Surviving the Trumpocalypse and like Wild Disability Justice Dreams, they talk about relationship building with the disability community, right. And so, you know, Beau, you're embarking on these really amazing opportunities where you are a disabled person leading that. And I think that that can communicate to other disabled people that that might be a more trustworthy opportunity than, you know, an institution or an organization, all of a sudden being like, we're doing a Disabled Sports Day. And I'm like, I've never heard of you, I don't see any disabled people involved, you know, and then they do everything they're supposed to. And disabled people don't show up. And they're like, what's that about? And, you know, it's like, we don't trust you, even like you haven't earned that sense. So it's like, this is a years long process. And I think people want overnight results. And that's just not how it works with people who've been harmed routinely and systemically by institutions.

Alisha Krishna

I also just want to add something to what Alex, you were saying before about, about everyone eventually becoming disabled. I think awareness of disabled people is premised on this idea that non-disabled people can do everything all the time, which is not true. What you were talking about accommodations being for everybody, I think that's fundamentally true. Because in this world of capitalism, and all the productivity requirements, and things like that, the requirements that are required of anybody are ridiculous half the time. Case in point, most of my childhood was spent sitting in a desk for eight hours. Who decided children would be fine sitting in a room for eight hours all day for years on end? right like that, that makes no sense to me now, and I probably would have asked for an accommodation to like, move around, or switch classrooms or something like that. But for any child, it's the same story. So it's not like, my disability is something to be aware about it's just that the entire situation is ridiculous. And I think understanding that lets you see accommodations, both asking for them and implementing them, in a different light, for instance, by asking them I mean, some people don't feel like they can ask for accommodations, like they're, they're burdening people or like, asking for too much, but you are actually entitled to that, like, both legally and as a person. So yeah, that's what I wanted to add in there.

Alex Locust

You know, Alisha, you're, you're really highlighting the, the social model, right? The disabling features of society, it's so easy to focus on like a physical impairment, right? Or something visible even on non-apparent, right, we're talking about chronic illness and mental health disabilities learning disabilities. But when you focus on that impairment, you're like, individualizing, you know, when other people focus on these things, you're individualizing it and so I hear what you're saying can feel like, I, Alex, I'm asking for too much. Right? Or like in the USA, ADA is phrased as like a lot of like reasonable accommodation was just shitty, right? Why are there unreasonable accommodation? And so to flip that script, and to say, how is this society creating these inaccessible experiences? Again, when we look at the intersection of these things, you know, TL Lewis has done beautiful work around how racism, you know, anti-blackness can create a sense of disability, right? And so if we think about like, intelligence, and the pressures of the norms around intelligence, and the racial stereotypes around intelligence, if you have a black child who can't sit for eight hours, you know, it's this compounding of people making gross, you know, assumptions about black people's intelligence and their worthiness in the space. And so then, of course, that child is deemed as special needs, right? Or they need remediation, or they have an issue, they have a learning disability. And it's like, what would it be like, just like you said, if it the school day was broken up, if it was, you know, on their own time, I can say, you know, I think, somebody mentioned, you know, COVID and working like, right now working from home with the emotional labor that I do, I get so zonked at midday. I have, (I'm not sending this to my co-workers...) I eat lunch, I take a nap. And then I just like get up early, now. Do you know what I mean? Like I just do work, I get up, at 6. I go to bed at like 10 or 11. And then I'm so much more capable of doing the work that has been assigned to me. Rather than being like I have to work 9 to 5, that means I'm a good worker. It's like, my brain needs rest, my heart needs rest. And that's not about disability, that's just this situation is not accessible.

Jheanelle Anderson

I just wanted to add something around like disability awareness. I feel like where it lands is like an inspiration-porn, kind of, at least that's where I feel like awareness is. We mentioned representation. And I think a majority of the representation for disabled people, if there is ever any, i s either tokenized, and barely ever shows disabled people as people. We all look different, you know, the intersectionality of it all, like, you know, sexuality, race, etc. So it's barely ever represented like that, like, you're a person. It's more of like, just an inspiration; a disabled person doing what they have to do, because of the structural factors around that, they're limiting them, that people like, go like applauding and just like, "Oh, my God, if they can do it, what's your excuse?" Horrible. I do want to commend Holland-Bloorview Kids Rehab, they have a campaign out, where it's, they're arguing for our presentation, like, they're advocating for representation. Kids need, like, I wish when I was growing up, I saw like myself represented in media, and just, like a person. Like, that's what we are, you know, why can't we just exist the way we are without being like, made a poster child, an inspiration, poster child. You know, just that representation, just as humans, is very important. And I think there's that one aspect of it, and we talked about it last week, where the movies... there's a movie out called "Witches" with Anne Hathaway, where they portrayed disability, deformity, as like, inherently associated with evilness, and scary. And I think, you know, that kind of pushes back, strides that, you know, people have made for kids to feel comfortable in their bodies. Or for a kid to see a body that looks different, to not feel scared of it, or to not look at it as weird. And you know, I think society has , like social media, this is like a constant thing where I know on TikTok, there was like, a viral challenge where they showed, like, parents during COVID, showed like a image of a disabled person to their kids saying that this is their new teacher, and recorded kids reaction for laughs and like, we need to move beyond this, you know?

Alex Locust

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I you know, the pop culture-junkie representation is such a part of how I process the world around me. And, you know, I can't remember if I mentioned this last time we talked, but, you know, my roommate was watching Howl's Moving Castle, and it has Mr. Turnip, who's like, basically a scarecrow that just hops a lot. And I'm like, why am I feeling more represented by an animated scarecrow than I typically do? In most media? You know, what I mean? And, as a kid, I was really drawn to Tigger, you know, cuz he hopped a lot. It's a reach, either to me, like, I'm going to these characters that aren't even human, just to feel seen. And I think that's why Sins Invalid, like, struck such a deep chord in me because their approaching the work from an intersectional lens. And so it's not just about disability, it's about how the queerness and disability come together. How do race and disability interplay? You know, generally, you're talking about inspiration porn, and it's like, man, I'm just trying to get bare minimum, like good disability representation. I'm not even out here being like, Can we get good queer disability representation? Am I gonna see a queer BIPOC disabled person, like, slow down, even though I mean, like, I feel like that's how much I am at a point where I don't feel like we're afforded these things typically, but then there's really amazing work like Superfest which celebrates international perspectives of disability, right? And it's a film festival for and by disabled people. So it does exist, right. It's just like, these things don't get caught up in the mainstream. And then, like you said, these mainstream images continued to reinforce either inspiration-porn or this vilification of disabled bodies in a way where it plays out in society. You know, I went to a wedding, it was two years ago, and you know, it's a queer wedding, I'm having a good time. I'm drinking, it's an open bar, right]? I danced, had a great night, the next day, somebody walked past me, and he was like, "hey, you're my hero." And I'm like, for why? Right? Because I was dancing and having a good time? Like, is that how little you think of disabled people that you're like, "Whoa, he's like, having a good time and enjoying himself." I'm like, No, I'm drunk, like, Who are your heroes, you know?

Jheanelle Anderson

And you're not locked away in a closet somewhere, like being hidden from the world because of your disability!

Alex Locust

Right, laying in bed.

Day Milman

Alex, we chatted awhile ago, just about, you know, when we go on to your website, for instance, which I encourage everybody to do that, you know, there's no separating out of your professional work as a mental health counselor, or your work as, you know, an activist or a person who puts workshops on. And I wonder if you could just chat a bit about that decision, to not separate all these different parts of yourself out.

Alex Locust

It's been a very intentional process, it feels very precarious, to be honest. The more that I immerse myself in the working world, the more that I hear how people talk about work, right? And they're like, "in my personal life", or "in my professional life", and I think, the pandemic examples that we're talking about... you know. I mean, literally, these lives are happening there together. Working at an AIDS nonprofit, where we're, we're trying to, like, center racial justice, we're having uprising around George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, and all of these black lives that have been lost. You can't ask black people to just come into work and be like, no, this is your work life, leave your personal life out. And so I'm really working to integrate those selves to model the importance of, of exploring how those things impact each other, how they can nourish each other. I live both and at the same time. Your energy is not allocated separately. They cause an impact on each other. I know, Alisha, during the planning call, brought up really great themes around sustainability and longevity of the work, how do we take care of ourselves. And I think the more that I explore my activism as like, art, as self-expression, as healing, unless it was like work, you know, it's just like a part of the way that I exist, I think I take it more seriously as something that needs tending that needs respect and needs reverence. And also for myself, to not overdo it because then, you know, I can't I can't show up long term. Disability Justice is inviting us to do this work sustainably. So how do I listen to my body and my mind, and my foot is such an interesting alarm bell, right? If I stand on my foot for too long, it starts to hurt. And it will get to a point where I need to sit down. And and I think, to me, that's what Disability Justice is teaching us, it's like, my, my foot is being like, "Girl, sit down, stop, you know, take a breath, slow down." And if I listened to that, then why am I not listening to like, I'm tired, I need to go to bed early. I can't take another gig this week. I facilitated too many times in one day, you know? I think there are so many invitations there and I'll just close with, you know, my exploration of pleasure activism, you know, adrienne maree brown, proposing this theory or this way of embodying activism as this irresistible practice. We should find activism to be deeply pleasurable, like, I think work, you know, professionalism is so devoid of pleasure. It's so devoid of joy most time, you know? I'm starting to zoom calls, I'm playing disco, if you're with me, it's not gonna be like a really dry day because this is hard work, you know? And so we have to have fun. I partake in substances, right? I have sex. I'm a person, and I want to experience those things. And so as an activist, I want to, I want to talk about my sexuality, I want to talk about how I employ harm reduction in order to let off some steam, but do so in a way where it works for me, and I'm taking care of myself. And I think if we act like those things don't exist if I, if I do those things, and it replicates this idea that professionals are people who come in, and they're wearing nice clothes, and they say nice words, and they don't ruffle anybody's feathers, and it's like, No, I want to go into a space and be like, you know, obviously don't lead with , I had a slutty weekend, but like, if we want to talk about it, and that's related to how I'm finding agency and autonomy in my queer, you know, BIPOC, disabled, body, that feels very ripe for this conversation.

Alisha Krishna

I also just want to add what you said about the professional thing, I'm obsessed with this lawyer out of BC right now, she's indigenous and amazing Myrna McCallum. She is spearheading this awareness movement in the legal profession, called trauma informed lawyering. And a lot of it has to do with like, knowing how trauma manifests, and people just interacting with the legal system. But a lot of it comes from the fact that people tend to separate their, like personhood and professional life. And there are created barriers between, like effective representation. And like you, if you put up this wall of like, I'm wearing a suit, I'm behind a desk, I'm, you know, like here to just do my work and just leave. So it's really about bringing yourself back in to the space and it actually just makes you a better professional. Because you're able to, like, deal with, like, interact with your clients in a much more fruitful way. And I yeah, I just, I really responded to what you're saying, Alex,

Day Milman

One of the themes that we've been sort of touching on a little bit here, and there is just sustainability. And I wonder if anyone else wants to talk about that aspect of their experience and how you're learning to navigate working with sustainability in mind in terms of your own energy and what you can bring to this work.

Beau Hayward

I'll talk a little bit about productivity and maintaining a good healthy work cycle, we're talking about we we've been discussing having some check ins, about particularly physical, physical health, during the, during the pandemic, and for people with disabilities and without. And you know, I think we've been given this opportunity where we are working and studying from home where we can really identify the hours in the day while more productive and, and put those two best used. And so I know for myself, it's been really good learning experience, being able to learn remotely and utilize these hours of the day when I'm most attentive, and, you know, dedicated to that, and then when there's time to do physical work to get in shape and stay in shape, um, you know, devoting that time to that task. So, I think it's really interesting that we get this opportunity, and hopefully, that'll carry on past COVID, whenever at the end of this virus is, but hopefully we can take those lessons and move forward with them.

Jheanelle Anderson

For sure, everyone mentioned it's really like being attuned to your body. And, like really recognizing and being aware. Um, you know, for me, when I'm burnt out, or when I'm tired, I get really irritable. If I start noticing that I'm irritable, I say like, I need to take a break. Like, stay off social media, you know, minimize your intake of my intake of news, and just do nothing. And I think Alisha last week, I mentioned it, just reframing this whole idea of the lazy day or laziness. But yeah, just have rest and being comfortable having rest being comfortable relaxing, like for the longest time I've always felt guilty because I was like, Oh my god, I have so much to do or like oh my god, I don't have anything to do I need something to do. So you know, that's that whole like capital system just kind of ingrained in our psyche of like, our bodies being tied to or bodies or value being tied to like how like our labor and how how much we can use it. So just being comfortable, like not judging yourself for needing rest. It's normal. So like, I binge watch some shows like Netflix has girlfriends and Sister Sister. Yeah, so I'm just like reliving my childhood. And just not judging myself for that. So it's definitely being aware. It's like, you know, Alex mentioned like, you know, physical like physically, like, you know, when it you have to stop. But, you know, mentally it's like we don't draw boundaries. And you know, I think Bo just mentioned how how the lines have been blurred now more than ever, with remote work, where people just feel like they have access to you all the time. So it's just really dry, saying no, just having hard boundaries, and do what works best for you really.

Alisha Krishna

I think also, I second everything that has been said, but I think also, maybe my context is different because I come from, like community like SBA is run by a board. So I'm always in working with other people. One of the tenants of Disability Justice is recognizing wholeness. I interpret that to mean, like, you always, well, it's in the they've written it, but like, you always have worth, and it's sort of led to this unique understanding of ability and talent and capacity. And I think recognizing that opens you up to a whole set of resources that you may not have realized you had. So then you can sort of rely on other people, while meeting them in the middle sort of thing, and you don't have to take on everything by yourself. And so you can, you know, take that brass when you need it and feel like you're not letting anybody down, because you are you've shared the work.

Alex Locust

Absolutely, I really appreciate that. You bringing in recognizing wholeness, you know, Jheanelle, speaking to like, anti-capitalism, you know, as another Disability Justice principle, which, by the way, I really didn't know you were talking about like the capitalists like having their money or freaking out and I just love this idea of like a bunch of like, older white men being like our body. But, you know, I just want to as Alisha brought in like that, that lazy idea or interrogating and pushing back against from that intersectional lens who's called lazy, right? Who gets to get away with being lazy, right? Is it like, you know, white, affluent influencers on Instagram, like in their mansions being like, I'm having a lazy day, you know, it's like, okay, cool, like you're being glorified for that, you know, black and brown people are vilified if they need to, like, rely on benefits in order to make ends meet, because the systems have created these inaccessible spaces for them to like, thrive, right. And then so they're like, lazy because they're depending on the system. It's like, that's why Disability Justice is about interdependence is because the system, the state creates a state where like, we have to depend on each other because that's not going to give us what we need. So, I think just, it's not just about laziness and being like this ablest concept, it can also be racist, it can be classist. And, you know, both speaking to like, what works for your body, what you need, it's like that, I think it's so important. It's not that you should be working out because you should be working out, it's like, does that feel good for you? Do you like want to feel that in your body, then that's how you should approach this. And that's not anti-capitalist approach. It's like, Where's their value and what you want to do not because you should be doing it, so you're productive. You know, how do you especially in the time, right, like Beau, so beautifully put, it's like, the things that we're learning now should carry us through this pandemic. So many people are clawing to like, I wish it was back to normal, I want to go back to how it was. It's like, girls of color coming from inside the house, that's how we got here. You know, so like, we can't go back there. We need to take what we learned forward and really challenge, like, why a pandemic struck, and we're like, I need to learn Spanish, now's the time! You know, it's like, if you didn't know it, then like, just focus on you, like, take care of yourself. And then maybe you can get those payments. But like, I think, yeah, the wholeness that Alisha brought up like, I've had to reckon with that in my house. Feeling like I don't contribute as much because I'm like, I'm not doing things in the garden, or it's harder for me to clean. But then I'm like, I'm like a reservoir of emotional labor. Like, try me a process. Anyway, you know, so that's also a value and if we move away from like, only these things are valuable or that there's like a hierarchy. Then it breaks up in this like, this entire constellation of ways that everybody can be in community and like, contribute and be collective as opposed to like this independent like, I'm gonna do everything and I'll take care of myself because that's, that's how I get through at the end of the day.

Day Milman

Yeah, I think that U of T has a particular kind of culture around valuing overwork, performative busy-ness, and that kind of thing. I wonder, you know, I wonder how students and Jheanelle, you just graduated last year, you know how you managed to navigate that and put Disability Justice principles, forefront in trying to navigate those kinds of things, and the systems that we have in place at U of T.

Jheanelle Anderson

So, for me, I, like other than getting over like those, like Alisha mentioned, a feeling like badly for requesting accommodations. I also think that the culture and like having professors who are also like, I say, disability aware, but you know, like accessibility aware, are just really thoughtful, and accommodating professors, because I like I was fortunate in my Faculty of Social Work. They were pretty accommodating, they were very understanding, they understood like, accessibility means they understood the pressures of school, and think a lot of other departments are like that. So the culture of like you mentioned, like performative, like busy-ness, the culture of pressure, that, you know, if you're not like studying, you're doing nothing, like your worth is tied to how wrapped up in schoolwork you are, how late you're staying up. So, I had a really great experience, you know, dealing with accommodations, which helped break that barrier down for me with asking, because it was just embedded in the culture of the faculty. And the professors were also very thoughtful, recognizing, like, not only disability needs, but that's the whole point too, is that, you know, these accommodations weren't just for students with disabilities, like, you recognize us school, junior masters, or just doing any degree is very stressful. There's also your life outside of school, like, there are lots of demands on you. And like, maybe you have to hand that paper in like a like a week or so later. But it's just like developing that partnership to work. Just so you know, you can complete the tasks that you need to do.

Beau Hayward

I think, I'd like to just say that my experience at the university has been incredible. I mean, I do a huge shout out to everyone at Accessibility Services, who has made this, you know, going back and get, you know, pursuing higher education possible for me. Also, when I brought it to the attention of my accessibility advisor that I wanted to play sports, she directed me to Robin and getting a position and being able to speak on panels and having these opportunities. The university, I believe, is doing a great job of unexpected, like Accessibility Services and diversity and equity. It's all this collective effort is just really great. And I'd like to say that my experience has been fantastic. And not say that, obviously, things can always improve, because they definitely, definitely can improve. And that's, that's what we're working towards.

Day Milman

Alisha, do you want to add anything to that?

Alisha Krishna

Yeah, yeah. So first of all, Jheanelle said something along the lines of like, you have a life outside of the university. And I, that's totally the truth. But in my personal context, so I actually did both my undergrad and my, like, I'm doing my law degree, both at U of T. So I've had wildly different experiences. The undergrad here is very large. So you kind of feel like you're lost. I was in the cinema faculty, and I learned a lot of valuable self-advocacy skills. So we actually do like workshops on this. The, the Accessibility Services, they're great. But sometimes the way they interact with students requires a certain kind of articulation that I feel like is not inherent to many disabled students, like, especially ones who are just coming to terms with it. So like, I know people who are just accessing accommodations right now and they, they explained to me like what they're going to ask for and they sort of couch it in like this explanation and like justification for it. Like, in my experience, that has been exactly the opposite of what you need to do, you sort of need to go into your appointments with doctors, accommodation, people, anyone who's asking you anything and sort of be firm and what you know, to be true, just from your lived experience you, like, obviously explain if they ask you to explain and provide documentation, whatever, but there's no reason to sort of, like need to provide a justification. And I feel like, that took me a really long time to learn.

Jheanelle Anderson

I'm also like, just an extension of like, within the school, I was part of my degree, I needed to do field education. And I think that was something that was lacking with regard to attitudes towards disabled people. And, you know, just accessibility, like, yeah, on paper there is like, you know, this former Yeah, if you need accommodations, but like, the attitudinal barriers that I've experienced when I was doing my field placement was huge. And I somewhat felt, you know, a lack of support. Because maybe people just didn't take it as seriously as other forms of oppression, which is, like, I think is a constant theme for like people with, like disabilities, like people will just gaslight you and like, wasn't like that. So, like, you know, that's just something else to like, consider with, like, the culture, not like, just at U of T, but just like, by extension, like the world, lets me just like during my field placement, and not feeling accommodated. Or just like, you know, my first field placement was in a hospital, and because of my experiences in a hospital and conveying that, you know, I felt like, they, you know, the educators are judging me, thinking that I can handle it, because of my previous experiences. So just kind of like, telling me what I can handle, like that paternalization, happens a lot. And then, you know, not being taken seriously, when you like, call out the ableism. So there's like, that kind of twofold thing where one like the culture of like, not accommodating people or not considering, like, the pressure that like your actual, like life outside of school, but also like minimizing or dismissing, like, your experience of ableism. But, you know, I will say that I had a really great accessibility counselor. And I wish I went to her about like, my concerns, because like, you know, she went hard for me after and was able to implement, like, um, like, workshops on ableism, on disability, for field educators, because I think that's important, as well.

Day Milman

Absolutely, yeah, this has been a really amazing and rich conversation that's given us lots to consider. And I think Disability Justice is it's just such a robust framework, that for me is a non-disabled person has really kind of opened my eyes up to how nested all these different forms of oppression are. And so, you know, for me, I'm just so like, my mind is really just working through constantly like how I can incorporate these principles into my work and the platform that I have as a facilitator at U of T. And so maybe, you know, we can end up on that question is just how is Disability Justice in the forefront for you, as you move forward as organizers on campus? And how can we kind of hold accountable? That same principle for, you know, the administrators and the deans and all the folks that were, that are decision makers at U of T?

Alisha Krishna

Yeah, I think so. There are a lot of things that you have two students that have been advocating for of the admin, most notably better mental health supports for students. And, and especially, I mean, I don't know if the conversation is as live as it was a little while ago, but the mandated leave of absence policy has also been very contentious. I think a lot of it comes from on the admin side, and this is pure speculation, I have no like, background knowledge of this or I'm not speaking for anybody when I say this, but I think a lot of it is coming from fear of liability. Especially the lap, like, essentially, it's just like, you're not UMTS problem, you're someone else's problem, but you're not U of T's problem. And I think it clearly has not worked. And they're clearly liable for things now, like, maybe not legally, but at least morally speaking, like, the recent tragedies that have happened on campus, no one's gonna look at them and say: yeah, you did, like, all you could do you did your due diligence. That's not. So I think there, I think more attention needs to be paid to student demands, and in a way that doesn't see them as inherently conflicting. Like, we're not student activists are not inherently against the admin just because like, we often come into conflict like that, but it's not. We don't have to be we don't want to be really, that would be the perfect thing would be for me not having to do this. You know.

Day Milman

Thank you. Anyone else want to add to that, before we wrap up? Janine?

Janine

Thank you so much. This was first of all, so informative. Secondly, a fresh of breath of air. Sorry, bilingual brain. But I just, I wanted to sort of ask you guys more about this concept of self care and community care, and how you guys have engaged with community care during this time, whether it's advocacy, for accessibility, kind of helping out people in the community, but also taking that time for yourself. So what was that looked like for you guys to have that balance of being part of the community and being active in the space, but also having that downtime for yourself and taking care of yourself, because I can imagine it, it gets overwhelming. Sometimes just hearing a lot of stories, especially during COVID.

Beau Hayward

I think, for myself, taking care has been maintaining some semblance of a schedule, that's just my personal way of keeping myself in line. Just you can see the calendar in the background, I just, you know, kind of have everything regimented. And that's, you know, obviously, not everybody's thing and also finding a way to stay active in the house. For a lot of physically disabled people staying physically active, super important. So well, it's important for everybody, but it's important because at least in my case, body deterioration, atrophy happens really quickly. So maintaining that level of fitness definitely as has been a stabilizer,

Alex Locust

I can add,you know, that that question of self-care, taps really into what I find Disability Justice to be another invitation to look to interdependence. Right. And, and how can I, you know, you mentioned community care, right? Like, how can I get out of my own head that like, I have to be the like, first and last off on like, how to take care of myself? How can I turn to community and offer these this care mutually, I mean, there are certain things that I'm trying to practice about, kind of my own boundaries, my own limitations, you know, like a shout out to Day and Robin for having patience with I put like a email, an auto reply on my email that's like, hey, just going down, give me like a week or two to reply to you, you know, which I had never done before. And I feel like it really communicates, it's just being transparent, right? Because I couldn't have just been like, I'll reply in a week or two. And not tell people, that's what I'm doing. Because, in essence, a lot of people reaching out to me, has not paid me yet to earn that kind of response time. So you know, but, you know, there's also that that piece where you're modeling like, Hey, we need to make, I think somebody mentioned like social media breaks, like making it known, like, I'm not just available, like, I'm going through a lot, you know, and I'm trying to take care of myself and reorient my focus and my energy. So when you let other people know that your practice I think it helps them reorient with you, as opposed to just kind of keeping it inside. And I'll just offer one last thing that I've seen. Several people do really beautifully, particularly around like surgeries, or intense like medical procedures as well, like create the disabled people in Excel sheets was just like, like, just you'll see some real magic and it's like, you know, this community care thing where it's like, who is able to bring me a meal to is down to hang out, you know, I had a friend where their experience meant that they were like, you know, it was during COVID. They got top surgery and so like, who wants to do zoom calls, you know, like, we'll do karaoke nights, you know, and, and so people just like fill in what you can do. And I feel like if we were more as a culture and a practice of it, that's a beautiful response to like a medical procedure but like what if you're like, you know, Alisha's gonna go through like exams, you know, what if it's like, a bad breakup? What if it's, you know, these kind of circumstances where it doesn't have to be I just moved, you know, how do we kind of create this thing where it's like, I need help. And I'm asking for it. And that doesn't mean we could actually means I'm really strong to name that I need help. And to ask for that, I would love to see more practices like that.

Alisha Krishna

I also have one other thing to add very practically, I started doing this year in like mid-September, I actually have an app on my phone that tracks my hours and it tracks my hours for each like class I'm taking each project I'm taking is the greatest thing I've ever done. Because if I'm feeling behind or something and I like cognitively, I just can't do it anymore, I can still look back at my like week of work and be like, I put in all that time already. Like this is totally valid for me to take a break now. And it's really, it lets me do things that I would never have done otherwise.

Day Milman

So I'm just gonna say, let's call it a conversation for the ages. I loved being part of this. And I really just want to give each and every one of the panelists, my heartfelt thanks for all the energy, your honesty and for sharing what you've learned, and for being vulnerable. I know that's really tough. But I think it does a lot of good for people to see how you are navigating these experiences in life and, and making a party out of it and making yourself shine and sparkle. And yeah, so thanks to Beau, and to Alisha to Jheanelle, and thank you so much to Alex for bringing your special brand of magic and gorgeousness to this conversation and to the world that we're in now. And I just want to say thank you so much, and wish each and every one of the people who attended tonight, you know, kindness to yourself and patience and just to take some of these learnings that we've had tonight and apply them to your own life as we move forward into the winter and to a bit of the unknown.

Janine

Thank you so much to all of our panelists for sharing their insights with us. And thank you to our partners for holding space for this essential conversation. Special thanks to the Hart House Student podcasting team for producing today's episode. You are listening to the west meeting room on CUIT 89.5 fm. We're here every Saturday at 7am. And you can find all of our episodes on our Hart House stories page on SoundCloud. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Instagram at hart house stories and twitter at hh podcasting. Thank you so much for listening, take good care of each other and we'll be back with you next week.

#disability justice #community #accessibility #ableism #students #livedexperience #care #selfcare

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

Text

Planting Seeds

Broadcast Jan. 2, 2021

SPEAKERS

Braeden, Janine, Rebekah, Sabrina, Melissa

[Intro Music]

Braeden: Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room. We are broadcasting on CiUT 89.5 FM at Hart House where we are taking up space on Dish with One Spoon Territory. My name is Braeden, and I'll be hosting the show today. Welcome to 2021 everyone. I hope this finds you somewhere safe and taking good care. A few weeks ago, we had a virtual meeting with our team of co-producers for the show. And before the pandemic we used to meet up in the studio once a week for these really beautiful and open-hearted roundtable discussions. I've been missing deeply sharing that space with everyone in person this past year. So for our last gathering of the year, we created a virtual Roundtable. So for this first show of 2021, we'll be bringing you into our last conversation of 2020 in the West Meeting Room. So grab a cup of tea and come join us. Joining me in the studio - Do you want to introduce yourself?

Sabrina: Hi. I'm Sabrina. I feel like I'm a tired voice. [laughs] You might have heard me a lot. But yeah, I'm Sabrina.

Rebekah: I can go next. I'm Rebekah. I'm not as tired. But um, yeah, I'll probably take a nap after this.

Janine: Hi, I'm Janine. I'm really tired, too, but on a sugar rush. So god helped me today. Thank you. (laughs)

Melissa: Hi, I'm Melissa. I'm new to the party. So I am very excited to be here, but also very tired.

Braeden: Well, thank you all, this tired bunch, for joining me in our zoom studio today. Um, just wanted to, Yeah, just have some casual conversation to round out the year. But I guess, I did have in mind to maybe start with Sabrina because we were talking a bit about snail mail. And I know you put together a package of letters for your business. And I just wanted to ask like, Yeah, what were like - what sort of inspired that and what is maybe drawing you to like this slower form of connection and communication?

Sabrina: Yeah, I feel like this is like a mix of business strategy and also like genuine inspiration. I created a product called Letters from the Tarot, which isn't super unique by any means. Like a lot of people do this in different iterations. But basically what that was, is like me going to my tarot cards and pulling just in general, like a general message, and then taking a picture of it in like a Polaroid style thing. So that that person had like a physical representation of the card, and then writing out their reading, like on proper letter paper, and like putting it in an envelope and making it like a super analog process. Because I usually do readings like online. One of the reasons for this is because the holiday seasons are coming up, and I wanted a physical product that would be like really good to put in some stocking stuffers. So that's like the business perspective. But also, I feel like there's a lot of screen fatigue going on. I was like really excited for the prospect of, there's like a restaurant down the street from where I live. And they're like, super, like spooky and like gamer-esque kind of thing. And I was like really excited to like proposition them over at Halloween and being like, I'd love to like sit in a corner booth in your restaurant and just like do live readings. And I'm like, I just get paid with tips and you can like bring people in or whatever. And then I can't do that because of the pandemic and everything. So it's like, how can I reproduce that kind of physical experience and like bringing those messages that way. And it was really nice, because as we were discussing earlier, I'm notorious for over-committing myself, always. And as I was putting it together, I kind of, I got a wholesale order for them. So someone like bought a bunch of them to put in their store. And at that point, it was like at the point of no return I had to like buy all the materials and I was like, Hey, we're doing this. And midway through I was just like, this is too big like I can't do this. I've never done this before what if everything I do is gonna let this store down. I already bought all this stuff like this is terrible. I had like 18 assignments due and I was like freaking. And then I finally got to the point where I was just sitting down and like writing the letters. And it was like, super nice and meditative. And then I got like washi tape and stickers and I like did them all up. And then I put them in the envelope. And then I did a wax seal, which is like much easier than I thought it was going to be. So I learned a new skill and just going through all the process and like putting all the letters together, it was a great way to disconnect from my screen. It was a great way that I hope I can intuitively connect with just like people in the community in a way where they kind of have like a physical reminder of that reading. But also that like allows them to disconnect from their screens for a little bit as well. And maybe do some intuitive reflective work, just kind of like on their own with actual paper. And it was nice to write things. So yeah, that's kind of like the story of that. In a nutshell. I hope I answered your question.

Braeden: Yeah, no, that's nice. It touched on it really beautifully. And yeah, you've got, you definitely inspired me to like, bust out the wax seal that's been in my drawer that I just like impulse bought at like a stationery store, and then never did anything with. So I think this is the season for snail mail. And that's why, yeah, I really wanted to connect with you about that.

Sabrina: Oh, another point real quick, too, was that the other inspiration for this too, was with electronic readings, it's very much just me. But the sheer amount of supplies that I needed to do this required me to go out and buy things. And this was also an avenue for me to reinvest into the community. So all of my like materials are from, or not all of them completely all of them, but the majority of the materials, I made sure to look and try to source as much as I can from like local Toronto businesses. So most of my stationery stuff is from this place called Wonder Pens, which is like, in the West. And they're owned by the like this couple, who I believe are also people of colors, so I'm also trying to like uplift like BIPOC and other marginalized communities. And then I got like one of the cameras that I was using from this place called Henry's, which is like an independent photography shop in Toronto. So that was another thing too, was like a physical product means that I could get physical tools and buy them from other small businesses.

Braeden: That's very cool. Thank you for sharing. Maybe in keeping with thinking about like analog and slowing down and time away from screens, and just sort of like, I don't know, connecting with tactile things in a meditative way - I think, Melissa, I'll toss it over to you. I noticed that there's a lot of foccacia popping up on your Instagram feed if you don't mind me sharing that? I wondered if you had any reflections on that that you could share with us?

Melissa: Yeah, you would be right, we have been making like two foccacia a week, which is like not good, because that means we've also been eating two a week. And I mean it's, I guess it could be good or bad, depending on how you look at it. But yeah, I'm not sure if anybody is familiar with Claire Saffitz. She used to work at Bon Appetit. And now she's doing her own independent thing, which is awesome. But yeah, we took her focaccia recipe that she posted kind of as like the breakout on her YouTube channel. And we, my partner and I, aren't super big breadmakers, which actually thinking about that is a lie, because I do have a sourdough starter in my fridge. But yeah, we thought we'd give foccacia a shot, because in all honesty, I don't think I had ever even eaten it before. So I was like, might as well just make it and try it all at once. And it is very therapeutic. In terms of slowing down, I mean, obviously, you do need to rely on the screen a little bit to like, watch the video and take your notes and stuff. But once you're there, it's a lot of waiting, which I'm not very good at. I'm not a super patient person. So I think that it's a good exercise for me to make things like bread where you are forced to wait. And, you know, if you don't wait and you get impatient, bad things can happen to your bread. So it's a really good exercise for me. And if you ever get a chance to make focaccia when you get to the dimpling part, where you have to like press down the dough, you will never feel anything like that in your life. It is amazing. And the better, like the more you you let your dough proof and like the bigger it is. We also realized the first time we made it, we didn't put enough water. So the second time we made it, it was that much fluffier. And even that, like even if you don't eat bread, I would make the bread and dimple it so that you can feel it and then gift it to somebody because it's amazing. So yeah, that's kind of a way that we've been, I guess turning off and kind of spending some nice time together. Which is great. So yeah, we've been eating a lot of bread, you would be right in saying that my feed is all foccacia now.

Braeden: No, it's wonderful. I really enjoyed it. So, yeah. What about you, Rebekah? Janine? Are there like some tactile analog screens-free activities that you're doing? Or maybe, or maybe thinking about doing in these coming weeks of hopefully getting some some rest and some time away from work?

Rebekah: Yeah, absolutely. When you mentioned snail mail earlier, like with Sabrina, I was thinking like, over this entire summer, I actually also did a snail mail campaign where, because I was back home with my parents after having left Canada because the lockdown, I spent a lot of time like writing letters back and forth, like people I hadn't talked to in a really long time. I wrote letters to my cousins. I wrote letters to like classmates from like university and classmates from high school. And it was just like, really therapeutic. And that act of waiting. Like Melissa said, I'm not a very patient person. So that idea of like having to be patient for like the mail to be delivered. And then, you know, checking the mailbox every day thinking like, Oh, is it here? Like is the letter here? I don't know. I felt like SpongeBob in that moment, just like constantly waiting by the mailbox, just like for something to come. And then I also was staring at the stack of cards that I have sitting next to my computer on my desk that I bought on a whim because I was like, You know what, maybe we'll do like holiday gift - like holiday card ideas, like send out to friends and family. Um, haven't gotten around to that, because this semester has not permitted me to do so yet. But I think that that's something that I'm going to try to pick back up again. Because like Sabrina said, it's like really therapeutic for me to like, write to people, and then the idea of waiting. I just love getting something in the mailbox. Like, I think that's really fun. So, yeah, and another tactile thing. I'm just like constantly writing in my journal. Like, I always joke that like, my journal is going to be turned to a memoir one day. But like, I think I'm like actually serious about it. Now at this point, I'm not writing for other people still, but like, I'm very much thinking in that historian brain and like wanting to document like my life during this pandemic over the course of this year, because I've learned a lot about myself. I grew a lot, challenged myself a lot. And so I think it'll be a really cool way to like, look back, like during this time especially because this - time is fake - But like, especially looking back over this year, like, time has gone by so fast and so slow at the same time. Like February is right around the corner. And I'm thinking like the last time I went out and had fun was for my birthday, which was in February of last year. And that's like two months away. So not really sure what happened between now and then but it just keeps going by so I think a journal will be a really cool way to like, share that with my future family. You know, like you're learning about 2020 in school. Well, let me crack open a journal for you. And I'll tell you about what was actually happening. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.

Braeden: Thank you for sharing. Janine, what about you?

Janine: I feel like, during this time, I've gotten a lot more in touch with my creative side. Like the past month, I think I was super stressed. And one way that I kind of, like kind of took care of myself because I don't want to say self care. I want to just be like, Yeah, I was not doing well and it wasn't like a skincare routine. It was like, I felt like I was losing my voice for a bit because I was working like so hard on things to please other people that I kind of lost my creative voice a bit. And so I created this photo essay and I interviewed a lot of people around me about their experiences and about their lives about different themes. And that made me really happy. And I think that going back to my journalistic side, that's a lot more of just listening to people and talking about things in a more abstract way has made me feel more myself. So I want to do more of that. I want to explore, like photo essay type projects. Obviously podcasts, but even like just poetry. I feel like sometimes we work, work, work, work work, and we forget that our internal voice is still there. And I want to do projects that are true to myself as well. Because sometimes I get sucked into this idea that um you know, I have to be the perfect package of like a 4.0 student and a perfect daughter, a perfect sister, a perfect whatever. And I end up losing myself in the process. So doing projects like this really make me happy.

Braeden: That's it. That's all my questions. [laughs]

Rebekah: I was gonna say like, Braeden, what about you? Have you been linked in with any like tactile things?

Braeden: I feel like I did kind of get into a flow with cooking. I feel like the past couple weeks, there is something about like - I feel like it's so boring - but just like chopping vegetables. Like I can just turn my brain off. And not like, I mean - I'm sure all of you wrestle with this - like work is showing up in your dreams and like, it just completely hijacks your brain space. And, and I find like when I'm cooking, it's just the smells and I'm chopping, you know, 1000 carrots. What's really nice, I think, that's helped me get into this ritual - I get a Good Food Box from Foodshare, which is a really amazing organization, every Thursday. And it's just like a signal to my brain that I have to like - it kinda reminds me - I used to work, I've worked in a lot of restaurants as a cook. And, you know, you have your delivery days. And you just, like you just cook, or cut, chop, like 1000 things of everything. And so, yeah, every Thursday, I just chop a ton of vegetables. And I can just - it just feels like the only time that my brain shuts off from the things that I'm stressed about, or like my to do lists. And I'm just, I feel like fully present. And then I get a great nourishing meal out of it. So yeah, I feel like I'm actually also doing something nice for myself that is nourishing and generative. So yeah, that's been really nice. Thanks for asking.

Janine: I love that you guys love doing things with your hands. And like, that's a form of therapy. For me, it's the opposite. Like I hate, like cutting things up for cooking and stuff like that. Like for me, I find a lot of comfort in stillness. And I feel like, granted I've burned down the kitchen once before or almost burnt down the kitchen trying to cook. So there's some bad experiences with that. But like, generally, I've just been having a lot of walks in trails and just forcing myself to, you know, just sit and journal and write or like, think of the first thing that pops into my mind. And I feel like, I don't know, I really love that you guys - like we each have different ways of expressing ourselves and different coping mechanisms. And I think, Melissa, it's funny that you mentioned foccacia, because I only learned about that yesterday. I didn't know what it was until yesterday. But my mom is also a bit big on making breads. I just for some reason, I am too scared to try it myself. I think if I tried it myself, it would go terribly bad.

Melissa: You should definitely try it, I promise you, it will not go poorly. My only expert tip for you is don't forget the salt because I forgot the salt yesterday. And it does make a difference. But you should try it. It's really easy. And I can send you the video. And if it doesn't work out, then just slather some dip on it and dip it in balsamic vinegar. And it'll be fine. You can't mess it up, I promise.

Sabrina: I think, too, there's like salience. And like, say your thing, like just try it. And like see, especially when it comes to bread. And I know especially in the everyone like being at home people are reconnecting to like growing plants. And like everyone's like baking bread and like doing these very kind of like slower tasks that take time. And I think something that I keep thinking about too is this post I saw an Instagram, which is not unique to that person, because I think it's just a general thing. But like "the day you plant the seed is not the day that you like harvest the fruit." And I think too, like we're talking about, like work showing up in our dreams and like having these expectations. And I think moving back to these things where it's like especially when it comes more to plants, I'm thinking more to plants, the philosophy like your breathing life into something that's like also its own thing. And sometimes things don't work out. And like that's okay. And even with bread, like honestly, sometimes the breads rising, and then it collapses. Like, it doesn't want to hold all that air in you know what I mean? L ike I don't - I mean I kind of subscribe to a form of animism. So I think there's life in all things. But I do think the life in bread is different than the life in like plants. But I think that's just like more of a testament to like, not everything can be controlled, or like confined into like a small test, test-case box. And sometimes things just kind of like, do run their course. And it's up to you to just kind of adapt and accept that and like wait and see how things crop up in time. I think there's virtue in that as well. Like learning to like live more slowly and like see what happens.

Rebekah: Yeah, that's actually a really cool idea that like something that I've been trying to reflect more about recently is, you know, trying to like - this year has thrown so many curveballs in like many, like many ways than one and so the idea of like not really knowing what the final product will be like, and kind of like you said, Sabrina, like, you're planting seeds and like, you have to wait for them to grow and like see what kind of options and stuff kind of come out of that. And I'm in the process of like applying to different programs right now. And everyone's like, well, what's your number one choice? Like, where do you want to go? And I'm like, you know what, I'm just, I'm just planting seeds right now. Like, I'm just trying to, like, see and wait and not trying to get my hopes up too high. And just trying to like, become more comfortable with like, living in this ambiguous like, not being able to plan my life out for like, five or 10 years kind of thing. Um, over the summer, I actually like bought a stick and poke tattoo kit. As like a whim like, everyone's out here making foccacia or like making sourdough and was like, You know what, I'm gonna learn how to tattoo myself. So why not? Um, that was my quarantine project. And I did this one tattoo. It's like, what is it called, like a crystal ball. I tattooed it on my ankle. And I just really like the idea of a crystal ball. Because you're always trying to like, see into the future. Like, you're always trying to look and like, figure out what's coming next. And that was my entire shtick over the summer. I was like, what's coming next? When am I coming back to Toronto? What am I doing after this year? Like, how - what is life going to look like? And things were changing every two weeks. Like you couldn't really plan for it into the future. Like you had no idea what was going to happen next month. And even now my mom's like, when am I gonna see you? I'm like, You know what? I can only think till the end of December. I can't think past that right now. But yeah, looking at that crystal ball literally reminds me like, okay, you're always trying to look and see what's coming next. And like, of course, it's good to have a plan. I'm a planner. Like, it is what it is. But I'm just trying to like, remind myself like, it's fine. If you don't know exactly what's happening next. You are not supposed to that's like the really cool thing about like, this whole life thing or whatever. Yeah, I don't know, I think crystal balls are a really cool way to monument that and I got a really sick tattoo out of it. So yeah.

Janine: I kind of feel the same way. Like, I feel like I've, I've always like, wanted to control everything in my life and wanted my plans to work out a certain way. And even though I'm really young, I still feel like, that's been a part of me, since I was really young. I've always kind of wanted to be an overachiever. Never really was, but always had that intention. And I feel like, as we're graduating next year, next semester, I feel this sense of like calmness knowing that I don't know what my next step is. And I like that. I like that, you know, I'm going into this new chapter of my life, this new phase, where I'm not sure what's gonna come of it. But what I do know is I kind of - it's kind of cheesy - but I want to live a value-based life as opposed to like a goal-oriented life. And that doesn't mean that I don't have ambitions, but I am trying to focus more on the day to day values that I instill in my work and my friendships and my character, as opposed to like, you know, associating my worth with a certain career or a certain job, or, you know, whatever it is. I just, I'm kind of tired of like, putting my worth up against, like, my ambitions. And it's good to have a healthy balance with that. But right now, I want to take a break from that next year. And that's my, like, seed that I'm trying to grow next year. Yeah,

Sabrina: I feel like what you're talking about when it comes to like, future planning is really salient. I was literally in my apartment yesterday talking to Max like, Okay, so we'll graduate in June, and then we can like rent our new place, and we're going to foster dogs for a year and then we're gonna foster children. And I'm like, trying to figure out like my three year plan, because, you know, I came into it thinking that I was going to go to law school, which is not completely off the table, but I'm definitely not going to go right after graduation. And this is gonna be like, the first time in my life where like, I'm not - I'm like ending that - I'm ending a year, but I'm not knowing that I'm going to go into another year, you know what I mean? Like, I don't have that structure of school telling me like, where you're going to be and like, what you need to read and what you need to do, and it's a full time thing. And I was ready to like, until 24, just like have that structure. And then I got into this audio thing. And then I was like, I'm not gonna go through the torture that is professional school. Now it's like, literally, I turned to my partner and I was like, I just don't - I'm, it's just hitting me that I need to figure out like, what am I going to do for the rest of the entirety of my life? Like starting in May, it's just going to be - like I'm not taking summer classes to get somewhere else. I'm not in pursuit of a degree or any sort of like outside metric of like something that like someone else deemed I need to get or like to get to something. I just can, I don't know, I can like move somewhere if I want to. I can like try buy a house. I can't buy a house. But like, theoretically, I could buy a house if I had the means, you know what I mean? Like, if we were in a different world, I could buy a van and like, go live in the woods somewhere. Like, I'm just like, freaking out. So yeah, I think I need to plant some seeds, but then like, let them grow. And stop trying to like envision what the life, what my life would be like having those fruits yet when I don't even know what seeds I'm planting.

Melissa: I think that's such like, everybody's kind of echoed the same sentiments that like, you know, we all kind of have an idea. And then the pandemic had other ideas. And now nobody really knows what's happening. And obviously, nobody wants to be in a pandemic. But I think something that has come out of this is like, it's a very humbling experience for a lot of people. But I think especially for students, and especially for students who are, you know, like, everybody's kind of set already. Like, they have goals in mind. And they have a schedule, and they have a life plan and whatever. And the pandemic came around and was like, actually, none of that is on the table anymore. And, like, obviously, that's distressing. And a lot of people who have, you know, mental health issues are really struggling right now. And like there are a lot of negatives. But I think that the one thing that it's really teaching people is you, you can't know what's happening. And I think that that's okay. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like I also graduate this year from, in April, from grad school. Which is crazy. So we're not going to talk about that. But in general, like, there's just so much up in the air right now. And I think that, I don't know. I think that it's kind of healthy, especially for folks like myself who are really type A and really planners and organized and whatever. Like you don't know what's happening. And that's okay. And nobody else knows what's happening, either. So I think that it's been sort of, like the patience that is needed to make bread. I think that the patience that's needed now, too, is something that maybe nobody asked for, but maybe some people needed. I don't know. Yeah, I struggle a lot too with wondering what to do after because I haven't not been in school since I was like a kid. So I don't know, that's a lot of pressure. But I think that what you guys have said about like, just planting seeds where you can and figuring out which ones are going to grow and blossom and which ones aren't, like that's all right. And I think that's just part of the experience. So yeah, I don't know, just everything that you guys said was really nice. And I think that it's true that everybody has been forced to slow down, which has been tough, but I don't know, maybe unnecessary toughness for a lot of us. So it's gonna be interesting to see what happens when our seeds start to grow wherever we've planted them.

Janine: And I don't know if you guys also feel this, but I have depended on other people's validation for a really long time with my work and what I want to do. And culturally, you just feel like, you know, it's a reflection of not just yourself, but your family, your parents. Like they've invested in you your whole life and stuff like that. So I I kind of had to let go of that pressure of I'm trying to impress other people, because I have to choose between, you know, being true to myself doing work I'm passionate about and being okay with uncertainty, and put other people's opinions of me aside and not give them the weight that they once had on the way I think of myself. And so, yeah, I just wanted to also add that.

Braeden: Yeah, I'll jump in as, as someone who's sort of like on the other side of, of having gone through school, and then, you know, it feels like a long time since I was in school. But yeah, Janine I think that was like the biggest transition of - I remember, my first actually, my first job after school was cooking, was as a cook in a kitchen. And it was like, I had to retrain my brain. I didn't realize how institutionalized my brain had become where I would like, you know, I would like make something or prep something and be like, okay, but like, what's my grade on this? Like, how did I perform? Like, what's the bell curve on this like creme brulee I made? Like I was so desperate for this like feedback or like, you know, or how I'm doing or - and it was like it was a real, it kind of felt like a brick wall of a reality check of like, Oh, I actually need to source this from myself. And I can't just like move through the world trying to like mine this like performance based review from people, because that's not real life. Like it was, it was a really trying experience. Like going, getting out into the working world and also just as like, yeah, listening to all of you talk about like, what's next - like, I mean, you're just gonna live lifetimes. Like with each year that passes you're going to work so many jobs. You're going to go so many places. You're going to meet so many people that like before you know it, when you look back at the past couple years - when I look back at the past 5 years, 10 years, since I've been out of school, like I can't even list the number of different jobs I've worked in. It's just all just sort of snowballed one, one from the other. So yeah, I'm really excited at like the blank canvas that sort of lays ahead for all of you. And, yeah, I'm excited to like, keep in touch, you know, throughout all of that, to see where all of you are, are traveling and doing and creating.

Rebekah: That's actually interesting, because it reminds me of an article that I read from the New Yorker yesterday. The article was about, like, if you could see other iterations of your life, like, depending on the choices and stuff that you made. And I love that concept. Like, I think that, you know, a bunch of sci fi movies kind of do that. But my favorite movie is called Mr. Nobody with Jared Leto, where he lives like three different lifetimes because he never makes a choice. And so at the end of his life, when someone's like interviewing him, like, Oh, so what was your life, like? He recounts, like, all of these different lifetimes that he lived because in his mind he never made a choice and actually lived all those different realities. It's a really trippy movie and I highly recommend if you get a chance to watch it. But the article was really fascinating, because, you know, this like concept of like, oh what would my life be if I made this choice? Or if I did this thing, if I did that thing? Like, for people who constantly live in that framework, you know, like, what if, what if? what if? what if? It can be like really overwhelming. Whereas like, some people kind of wrestle with that "what if" idea, and they're like, Okay, cool. That's a fun thought experiment. Now, let's get back to like, you know, regular life. I don't know. I don't know if anyone else like in this call does that but I also think about like the movie Meet the Robinsons, and how like, he built a time machine where he could have like seen what his life - like there's different alternate realities. I think alternate realities are really cool. But I sometimes wonder like what my life would have looked like if I had made different choices. But not trying to dwell on that. So I'll just toss it out there.

Sabrina: Yeah, my main like philosophical stream is ethics. Not that they stream you in philosophy in U of T. It's just what I enjoy. So that is the life that I live Rebekah. I wake up in the morning, and I'm like, what if I wear this blue shirt? Like, is it immoral to wear it? Like what? I like go to the grocery store and I'm like, Is it wrong that I'm buying this? Like what if I didn't - you know what I mean. But it's like all the way down to like a micro, like microcosmic decisions to be like how would my life be differently if I changed my life in this way? Always from like, a moral perspective. And I definitely think that, it's like, yeah. I feel like there's definitely those people there who like have that thought experiment and then they like move on with their lives. And I think that's also really important to be able to cast like that. But when you're like trapped in that cycle of like, but what if I do this, but what if I do that? What if whatever? It can become like really overwhelming, like you were saying. Because then you just don't want to make a decision. Because who knows what's gonna happen. And I think that's the - that's that thing, too - is like that need for control that we're talking about. And like, some semblance of like I know where I'm going. And I know what's about to happen and I know that I'm going to be safe, right. I think that's like, the big thing, too, is like people looking for safety in like a lot of the visions of the future that they see. And it's like an interesting balance to strike between like allowing yourself to consider all these possibilities, but then also acknowledging that you can't, like you were saying with a crystal ball, like you can't actually look into the future.

Janine: Yeah, that's such a cool article. I really want to read it Rebekah. I love Meet the Robinsons was one of my favorite when I was younger. And I think that if you pose the question, would I want to know what my life would look like a year, two years, three years from now, the answer for me is always No. I do not have that curiosity in me because I actively create my own future every day. And that sounds like - I've - this sounds kind of, I don't know, I watched an interview with Miley Cyrus last night talking about her album. And I really liked what she said. She goes, "every night, I kind of say goodbye to myself and I wake up a new person." And so that's where self forgiveness comes in is, you know, you can't say that, you know, next year I have to have this like checklist for my life. And for this year, and I have to do this, this and that. And I have this intricate plan. Because when you do that life kind of laughs at you and just says no. [laughs] Refuses everything that you know, you've pushed yourself to you know obsess over and stuff. So I think it's like maybe this balance that we need to strike between actively working for what we want in our lives. And, you know, working and manifesting that every day, but also letting go of that control and being like, I have this self forgiveness, self acceptance. Whatever comes will come, and I'm okay with it. And it's a very hard balance to strike.

Sabrina: I think too Braeden, going back to what you were saying about like that external validation is so real. And it's like one of the many, many, many, many, many reasons why I get very upset when professors like excuse their terrible policies being like, well, I'm just preparing you for the real world. Like, no. You're just preparing me to continue in academia. And that's a whole other kettle of fish. But like, the real world is not like this. I had to like work through this, like with my therapist. Because at my - this job is great, because it's all about creative expression. And there's like no punishment to that. But I feel like the world, "real world" is interesting. Because when you're like employed somewhere, like you can get fired. So there is that kind of form of performance review. But like, as long as you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, like no one's gonna check in at the end of your work every day and be like "Good job! B plus! Here's how you could have improved," you know what I mean? Like, maybe you should have used like, a blue paperclip and 12 point font instead of a red paperclip and 10 point. Like, they just want to know that you got the thing done. And I'm now in a position where I'm like working in a more of like a professional capacity where like, to me, it's like the concept of like being fired has like replaced the concept of like getting a C plus. And I'm like everything's terrible because then I'm just automatically gonna be fired. And I have to like, talking to my therapist about it, and I'm like, every decision I make, I'm like waiting for my supervisor to come back at me and be like here's where you could have improved. Here's where you did well and here's what you whatever. And it's like, she just wants me to get my work done. She does not care. You know what I mean? Like, she hired me because she thinks I'm competent. So she's like, there's ways that I'm being trained, but also ways where it's just like she's trusting me to do the thing. And it's more of like a completion mark, I suppose. If you want to keep up the school analogy. I think it's very interesting to be aware of those things, because I was not aware of it. And I also found myself too - and I think this is like another issue with like the post-secondary system - but like, a lot of the assignments that I do in class, I'm not necessarily doing what I want to do. I'm doing what I think my TA is going to mark well, right. And that's also another mentality that I needed to subvert when I entered like this sort of position where it's like, I need to stop creating things that I think my supervisor is going to like pat me on the back for solely because I want her to pat me on the back. Like I need to create good work that I'm proud of that I know she will be happy with. Because she hired me to do the work that I know that I can do you know what I mean? And I feel like these are like really important things to acknowledge that people might not even realize, because then you enter like these workspaces and you have this feeling of like, why does everything feel so out of place? Like, what am I seeking? Like, why does this feel so weird? And it's just like, because everything that you've been like taught to do and the way that you've been trained to like interact with the work that you're doing is not actually appropriate for this space. And like you're not the problem. It's just like your conditioning and the way that you've been working for the past couple of years. And, yeah.

Melissa: I actually, Sabrina, something that you said made me think, actually kind of have a realization. I have an interview this week for a big person job, which is very exciting. But speaking of, you know, having that academic like evaluation sense instilled into you, I didn't even realize that I did this. But I reached out to somebody who like already works for the organization to try to get some insight into the interview process. And now that you said that, Sabrina, the only two questions that I asked her were about how I was going to be evaluated. So I asked her a question, how much do I need to know about x topic? Or like, Am I - I basically asked her if I was going to be quizzed. And then the second question that I asked is, does she want like, the interviewer, in your experience, does she want me to hand her a portfolio. And she basically responded and was like none of that is necessary. They're basically just - I hate, like, I don't want to say vibe checking, but basically they're just making sure that you're a good fit. And like, they made me do a personality assessment. So I'm pretty sure they're just making sure I'm not lying. But like, the first thing that I wanted to know is like, Am I being tested on my knowledge? And if so, how am I being tested? And if, like what is the test look like? And I didn't even realize that that was an academic thing until this conversation right now. And it's funny, because when I realized that it wasn't going to be that, I felt relieved. So I feel like, I wondered what that kind of says about those values that have been instilled in us from being in academia for so long. The fact that I feel so relieved that she's just going to ask me about who I am as a human being and not judge me based on if I get a pretend test, right. Like, I don't know. I just, I didn't realize but that's kind of just a personal anecdote about how that - I feel like that idea kind of creeps into your life in ways that you don't realize all the time, which is very harmful in my opinion. But yeah, that definitely is going to take some unlearning. So if anybody has any tips on how to unlearn years of academic pressure, let me know. [laughter]

Rebekah: We're all like shaking our heads.

Sabrina: I did want to say, like, the biggest like - this isn't necessarily like a learning process. It was just one situation, but that kind of like helped me put things in certain perspective. It's like - my, one of my siblings is like over, a decade older than me. So I was like, back in like, [Rebekah gestures "me too"] (whoo, yeah! Rebekah! Twinsies). So like, it was like, I was back in early highschool, early highschool. And he was at my house, and he was doing like an interview, like Skype interview or whatever. And I was just in the living room, but I was like, over listening, because he was just talking, it was like everyone's business in the common space. And, you know, he's talking about his resume. And he's talking about his qualifications. And he was just like, yeah, I speak French, like English is my native language, but I also speak French. And I was waiting for them to be like, okay, conjugate like passe compose. Like, he was like, whatever. And like, the interviewer, I believe, also spoke French, and then just started speaking French to him. And then they spoke French for like, five minutes. And then they moved on. And I was like, they didn't test him. Like, they didn't test them. Like, they just spoke French. And then they moved on. And then I - this is like years later, right - like, a couple months ago, I was in the interview for the job that I'm in now that I'm trying to unlearn these like academic things. And, you know, she was just kind of like "So I see you speak French on your resume." And I was like, yeah, and she's like, cool. Like, someone that we're working with also speaks French, so you can connect on that. And then we just moved on. And I was like, Wow, I didn't need to do a dicte. I thought I would going to like interviews and they'd be like, so here are your conjugation sheets, you have 20 minutes, hand them back and then we'll evaluate your proficiency. And I think it's really interesting because like, even like my partner, he's going into a different sector. And he actually gets quizzed in the sector that he's in. It's actually common to be quizzed and have take home assignments. And they'll send them to you and then see how you go through those assignments like to be hired, like, Oh my god, that sounds terrible. I'm looking at him right now telling him that like, that sounds terrible. So it's definitely not like all the case, I'm sure in certain respects like that academic training is helpful in certain sectors. And this is more of like a STEMy kind of sector for him. So that I think makes a lot more sense. Because it's more quantitative than qualitative. But yeah, I think what was very helpful for me was that seeing possibly the way that my life could turn out, even in early high school by like watching my brother's interview, even years, or listening to my brother's interview like even years, years, years ago, and then experiencing that kind of situation myself, is just understanding kind of like, even what Melissa was saying. Like understanding the circumstances where like, you aren't necessarily going to be quizzed. And like, that's okay. And just know that like, not everything in life is going to be like some pop quiz trying to trick you into like, creating a metric for your performance or something. Some people will just like believe you. Which I think is also something like it's like, phased out of people as they move through like institutions and structured institutions. Like people don't believe people for things. Like you need a whole note that you have to pay for just to tell someone that you were sick. And like, can I get like a rewrite for this thing? Like yeah, it's just interesting that in the "real world" there's more space for trust and just kind of like taking people for their word.

Braeden: Yeah, um, maybe to round out the end of our hour together I would love it if we could go around, and if everyone, if you're comfortable, if you could share maybe some work or an aspect of your work, or the way that your work that you work that you're proud of. And then maybe, do you have like an intention or a well wish to cast towards yourself over this break for your rest and restoration? Like, as we round out our last conversation into the year like what's like a good intention that you want to cast towards yourself to invest in yourself over the break?

Rebekah: Oh, tough question. I don't know, for me, I'm working on a couple of different projects right now. And I guess I'm just really proud of the way that like, I've not only like sought out like these different projects that feel very different from what I usually do in my academics as a way to like challenge me. Like I'm working this writing project right now, and I write a lot for myself, but I don't really write for other people very often. And so this is a, like a challenge and a test, but I get to interview some people who I'm really excited to interview and like, you know, tell the story that I don't think that is like currently being told. But my well wish for myself for over the break is to reconnect with my grandparents. I know, that's completely unrelated to what I just said. But, um, I've been like, meaning to like, reconnect with them for a while. And it gets like really hard to do that like during the thick of the school year. And so I floated the idea to my grandparents a couple of weeks ago that I want to do like an interview style thing with them like I did when I was in high school as an updated version four years later. Because I think that there's like more questions that I want to ask them. And while I still have them here to ask those questions, I want to like make sure I can document that and like have that as a family historian type of thing. So, um yeah, that's my wish for myself is to like actually make that happen. And so I'm saying this now, because I'm gonna listen to this later. And it's going to remind myself, Hey, did you do that thing that you said you're going to do? And hopefully the answer will be yes. There we go.

Janine: I love that idea. I think that just inspired me to do the same with my grandmas. To call them and ask them these questions. I think for me in the break, I want to just personally clear my head a bit. And like I said before, kind of find my voice again and find my passion again. Because I think I've lost it for a bit. Like not lost it, but it's definitely dim because of like, a lot of anxiety and stress and stuff lately. And I think that I want to meditate. That's one way that I want to take care of myself and whatever will come creatively will come. Whether it's writing or audio or visuals, I'm just giving myself that space to breathe. Like, it sounds like a simple thing. But it's, it's harder than it seems to just breathe and meditate and take care of myself in that sense.

Sabrina: For me, something that I'm proud of, in my workflow - I think I've been moving into a space of establishing good boundaries across everything that I'm committed to in a way that honors how I've committed to those things. And doesn't like, have me like under delivering. But then also in a way where I can like juggle everything. And I think my like wish for myself for this, this kind of break period is honestly just to rest. And to like, just take some time to do nothing or like do things that I enjoy. Like for myself. I don't even know, I don't even know what rest means. Because I also have like a bunch of ideas. So it's like, people are like well you need to rest and it's like but I also want to do 1000 things. So like, I don't. I don't know how you marry those two things. But I will - I don't know, hit me up in three weeks, and we'll see if I figured it out.

Melissa: Those are all really great well wishes to yourself. I think that it's really important to cut yourself some slack when you can. And on that note, I guess something that I am proud of is I was talking to folks about my education plan earlier. So it's basically just an academic assignment that I'm working on. And I'm really proud of it. Because I think that I surprised myself with how like legitimate it feels. Like I feel like looking at it makes me feel like maybe I am actually a museum professional. And I don't know, I feel like it kind of helps mitigate some of that imposter syndrome. So it's always nice when you produce something that you feel like, Hey, I could maybe actually show this to an institution. So that's been pretty cool. And it's also been fun to work on. And then my wish for myself I think is just to be nice to myself over the break. So if I need a day off to not do anything like that's okay. Whatever the outcome of this interview is, I think just being nice to myself about that. In echoing what Janine said, like, I'd also like to be creative over the break. I have a knitting project that I'm working on, but like if I don't finish it that's okay. So yeah, I think just giving myself space to be productive or to not be productive and trying not to put too much pressure on myself, which I'm pretty good at putting pressure on myself. That is I'm not as good at taking pressure off. So we'll work on that this week. And what about you Braden?

Braeden: Um yeah, I think something, I think something that I'm, I'm proud of around work is that I'm realizing, I feel like for the first time, sort of my work is like integrating itself with me as a person and like who I am and how I move through the world. And like - and I feel like the actual bedrock of my work is in building relationships. And I feel like that's kind of who I am as a person. Like, I feel like I'm returning to who I've always been. And that's also just like integrating its way into work where it's just like the foundation of all of this, is in building relationships, building trusting meaningful relationships. But also, yeah, creating pathways for creative expression for myself and for the people around me. And so yeah, that just feels, it feels really nice to come into alignment with that after sort of years of like, a very like turbulent working life. And then something I guess, like some well wishes, I think I just want to read. Like, I just want to, I just want to sit on the couch and like read a book for three hours. And if I like fall asleep after 15 minutes with like, with napping with like the book on my face, like, that's cool. That sounds like bliss. So yeah, thank you. Thank you all for for sharing. And for joining me in this convo. This is, this was really lovely. And I'm wishing all of you a wonderful restorative break and look forward to connecting in the new year and in hearing about all the nice things you all did for yourselves. Thank you so much to Sabrina, Rebekah, Janine, and Melissa for joining me in the West, Meeting Room for our last conversation of 2020. And a big thank you to all of our extended Hart House podcasting family who have all taught me so much about how to hold space for meaningful conversations. I hope this finds you heading into 2021 with a bit of a lighter load. And if things are feeling heavy right now, I would encourage you to call up someone who's helped you, someone who can bring you comfort, or someone who can make you laugh. Take care of each other in the meantime, and we'll be with you next week.

#time #rest #analog #breadmaking #creative #wellwishes #pandemic #thinking #unlearning #space #writing #conversation

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Looking to the Future of LGBTQ+ Identities in Eastern Europe and the Slavic Diaspora

Broadcast Jan. 9, 2021 - 58:12

SPEAKERS

Rebekah Robinson, Gala Mukomolova, Damir Imamović, Mateusz Świetlicki

[Into Music]

Rebekah Robinson: Hello, and welcome to the West Meeting Room. On today's episode, hosted by me, Rebekah, one of the producers here, you'll hear part of a conversation that I moderated titled, Looking to the Future of LGBTQ Identities in Eastern Europe and the Slavic Diaspora, which took place on Zoom on Monday, November 2, 2020, and organised by the Slavic Languages and Literatures Department here at the University of Toronto. I sat down with writer and poet Gala Mukomolova, Dr. Mateusz Świetlicki, and musician, Damir Imamović, to discuss the role of culture and activism in the community as they look toward the future. I would like to thank professors, Dragana Obradovic, Zdenko Mandušić, and Angieszka Jezyk, for putting together this conversation and inviting me to moderate. The bios for these accomplished speakers will be available in this episode’s show notes.

Rebekah: I've been really looking forward to this conversation over the past few weeks. And so, I'm hoping in order to get started, that each of you could briefly tell us about the context in which you're coming from, and the work that you do. And if the cultural context from which you're coming from influences your work in any sort of way. I know, we've mentioned that a little bit during your bios. I'd like to get into it a little bit more. And let's start with Gala on this one.

Gala Mukomolova: Okay, sure. Um, well, I am primarily a writer, and that's what I do. I write a lot of astrology things.

[chuckles]

And that is, I mean, I feel it's interesting already, just to think about like musicians and philosophers and rebels, and literature scholars as a point of conversation around world events. I think that I came to astrology writing sort of by circumstance. And I've mostly tried my best because it's very commercial and I work for a major syndicate to subtly or unsubtly move large masses that would otherwise be un-politicized by my like weekly astrology writings. And all my writing work that's more creative or personal, like the essays or the poems that I write, are very influenced by my upbringing, and I guess, just where I'm at, right. So I was raised, but, I mean, I was born in Moscow. My family's Jewish. We had to immigrate to Brooklyn, around the wave time that everybody else did. 1992 / 1993, I was raised very much in, in a kind of, like, understanding of difference as marker, right. So it's like the idea that who we are is always in relation to who we are not, or history. And I think that what I'm interested in, actually, in this discussion is, is learning more about people who are in place. Like I think I come from, my writing comes from being displaced. And, yeah, I don't know, I feel like there's so much, I mean, it's just who we are always influences what we make, right? I think that I also am very invested in a queer post-Soviet perspective, and that's really particular because I, I have an okay relationship with my family now, but I was disowned for many years and didn't speak to them. And the idea of being like, queer, or lesbian was antithetical to being Russian, to being Jewish -- Russian Jewish, because we're like, Well, you know, like, when you're, when you're a Jewish person from Moscow, but like, my family doesn't identify as Russian. They identify as Jewish. So it's like a particular thing to say, but, um, I think understanding the amount of disavowal that happens amongst like, how people come to define themselves. Like, with my family, being like, “Well, you know, if you're choosing this aspect of yourself, then you're not one of us, right?” But the “one of us” mentality has to come from a fear that you need to keep being like, non-Western. I'm just, like, kind of like creating this idea of devotion to the to the national idea. I don't know. So, which doesn't claim you, right, the national idea which doesn't claim you. So like, Russian people for so long, did not really claim Jewish people as one of their own. And yet, like to be clear, like Jewish Russia is to create a disavowal from the country that you come from, which we actually disavow to begin with.

Rebekah: Thank you so much, Gala, I think that's, I like the idea of, you know, or I find the ideas fascinating about being displaced within, like these different communities. You know, and I know you mentioned your work with astrology. And I'm hoping that you can about how these sort of intersections and ideas maybe even play into like contributing to your writing these astrological pieces. And as well as just know who we are is in relation to who we are not. Like, that's especially prevalent in today's politics throughout Eastern Europe and throughout the world, really. You know, everyone's trying to juxtapose themselves. And there's this fear of othering. So, I hope we can touch on that in this conversation as well. Let's move over to Damir, if you could introduce us, tell us a little bit about the work that you do. And if you find that your cultural context is influencing your work as well.

Damir Imamović: Thanks Rebekah. No, yeah, of course. I was born in 1978, during the time of Socialist Yugoslavia. And probably, mostly the kids at that time, end of 80s, I was what 10, 11, 12 when the war, when the dissolution of Yugoslavia started that I, 14, 13 and a half, something like that. So I somehow feel that most of us who are coming from that geographical area , we we carry this mark and this, most of our interests of that generation, or are of those generations are still colored by this, you know, traumatic event that happened in Yugoslavia. In the beginning, I started playing music during the war when Sarajevo was under the siege. I was in a shelter. And us kids, we were bored basically, so I had to do something. You know, you can't go out you can't do much. And some days, you cannot even go to your apartment upstairs. And I picked up a guitar and started learning songs. And, but actually, and of course, traditional music was always big around me in my family of traditional musicians. But I also, my first songs that I fell in love with were, you know, rock and roll, jazz. It was 90s. So, the whole Nirvana. But somehow in Bosnia, in Sarajevo, especially this sevdah traditional music, which was strongly rooted in Slavic oral culture, but also had a strong Turkish Ottoman Empire influence was always around, you know. So I just, I woke up as a 20 something year old and realized that I know all these songs. You know, in the day, I even use them not only as songs, I speak in that way sometimes. You know, they're some little pieces of those songs, some parts of it, I use it in everyday speech and it's so much a part of me. And then I realized only actually several years back that I was always interested, because this trauma really formed me. And my primary school class completely dissipated when the war started, you know, and suddenly, we became strangers. And that's why even today, I'm still probably quite close, closer to my friends from primary school, because I was in seventh grade when we started, then with later on high school, friends and university friends and other people. And I realized that without me knowing that all of my themes I was really interested in, you know, like, after high school, we have this system where we write at, like, a final paper in high school. Some kind of a diploma or something. And, of course, the University the same. And just when I look back, I realized that all of these things were actually connected to the same topic. And it is, how is it possible that people become strangers to one another, you know, when I, I never had the problem, intellectual or artistic with people being, you know, foreigners, people being unknown to one another. And you discover something that you don't know, but this very feeling that due to some act of politics, history, whatever, you become stranger. You become this foreign person, you know, and of course, coming out is a big part of that. Because it's, you know, the situation when you have some friends, you have family, and after coming out, and that's what a lot of LGBTQ people know, you suddenly become somebody else and you're still the same fucking person. But there's this estrangement, or whatever the word is in English, that happens, you know. So a lot of what I do is is kind of colored by that. Even without me knowing that I - That's actually one thing I'm rediscovering about what I do. But I have, you know, I always had diverse interests. I always loved literature, history, philosophy. Music was just a part of it. And after studying philosophy in Sarajevo, I had my ideas of pursuing a career as a philosopher means mostly sitting at one place and thinking, anyway. But I was lucky enough that I, just by chance, I was offered a gig as a musician, and I did it. And it was a big success. And I just felt that that's what I love doing, you know. And of course, later on, after that, I realized that I don't have to give up on my intellectual interest, you know. But I can still write, I can still, you know, research stuff and, and I realized that you have to, if you have an opportunity, you have to take over this place in mainstream society and speak with a different voice from there. You know, it's not, because mostly, I mean, the whole of Balkans, meaning former Yugoslavia, plus other countries in Eastern Europe, is actually today a place people are mostly forced to leave if they want to live their dreams, you know. And I remember this, this first Pride parade in Sarajevo last year at which I played. There was one moment when I literally wanted to cry. And that was when I saw all these guys and girls, queer couples of all kinds who are from Sarajevo, usually, both of them, you know, from a couple they were both from Sarajevo, but they've been living in, I don't know, all over the world for 15 plus years. And then they came back for that particular date was such a strong message, you know? So that's just for starters.

Rebekah: Absolutely. Thank you so much. I feel like you brought a lot of food for thought. e\Especially, I like the concept of how even within a specific region, you know, you become a stranger to one another through force of trauma, but also how that can also impact how LGBT people are also impacted as well. Especially when coming out from to their families or to their society, to their communities, on how you can even be ostracized and a kind of stranger in that way too. So, I hope we can explore that idea of being considered other and this estrangement that you mentioned later on in our conversation. How about you Mateusz?.

Mateusz Świetlicki: That's a difficult question. First of all, I want to say that I absolutely love my job. I love everything about it. It gives me satisfaction for a number of reasons. But before I say few things about these reasons, let me answer the question. Because your question was about, you know, the personal experience. I think that we cannot escape our personal experience at all. In order to, you know, succeed. You need to combine your personal experience. You need to stay, you know, truthful to your own self and your heritage and your identity. And, I was born in Poland. I lived in Poland when I was a child. I also lived in Germany. I also live in Louisiana, Shreveport, Louisiana. And I decided to stay in Poland. I decided to stay here because I do have hope. And I think that sharing my experience, sharing all of the things that I know. Sharing my you know, vision of the world, can actually help my students. And I absolutely do use my experience when it comes to my writing. When it comes to my teaching. When it comes to my writing, I have a degree in Slavic studies and Ukrainian studies and in American Studies. And I published a few things about Ukrainian literature, about Polish literature, about American literature. I try to write some things about gender, about men studies, about masculinity studies about queer things. I tried to find some queer themes in Ukrainian literature, but I always, I've always been interested in children's literature and YA literature and popular culture. I find this trash culture to be extremely inspiring. Now I'm working on a project on North American children's literature. By North American, I mean both American and Canadian. But, I'm writing about literature books written by Ukrainian and Polish authors. I mean, second, third, fourth generation Ukrainian / Polish authors. So books written in English, but books about the experience of being Polish, the experience of being Canadian, the experience of being Polish Canadian. The experience of being Ukrainian Canadian, experience of being Ukrainian, in Canada, and so on. So I think I'm trying to somehow combine my expertise. Like, I think this is the perfect topic for me, because I'm using everything of my knowledge. So I can use my Slavic studies, background, and my English studies, American Studies, background. And every single time when I want to write about, let's say, memory. When I want to write about something else, I always end up thinking about queerness, I always end up thinking about the ways in which sexuality or gender are, you know, constructed in the literature or film. And I think it is connected to my identity, you know. This topic, I cannot escape this topic, you know. I absolutely cannot escape this gender theme, and it's difficult to do that in Poland. And when it comes to the last few years, when you hear your president saying that LGBT is not people, LGBT is ideology. When you hear politicians saying that we have to make sure that gender ideology and the so called LGBTQ ideology doesn't destroy our children. And there's always the child to use as this political, you know, tool. It's, on the one hand, it's challenging to write about such topics. But on the other hand, I find it so fascinating and stimulating, intellectually stimulating. And I think that we should resist. And this leads me to what I said at the beginning of my little speech. My students, teaching is fascinating, really, and inspiring. And my students are absolutely brilliant. I am so privileged to be teaching a number of really intelligent, clever young people who are sick and tired of this situation. Who grew up in Poland, with the internet around them, who grew up traveling, you know, going on vacation to various different places. And there are queer individuals who want to live in Poland, and who want to, and who are proud or openly gay, or lesbian or transgender, and they don't care. And they don't want to move to America or to Canada or to Germany. They want to stay here and they want to make a change. And what I hear my students tell me that my classes made them want to fight. I'm shocked because I always think that my classes are ideologically neutral. So I always think that I'm not really that political in class. But it turns out that while I'm not trying to be political, I am political. So yesterday, my wonderful graduate student told me that during one of like, random classes, like ethics of academic work, stuff like that - I taught them about the phenomenon of angry white men in America, like Trump supporters. And someone, and I didn't remember that, I just used some basic examples of books, and I, and I asked them to come up with a list of Works Cited. And then she told me that because of this little class, the entire group, read that book. And that's why I find my job to be really, my profession to be really inspiring, because I can teach. I can write and my students really inspire me. So I, every single class influences my writing.

Rebekah: We'll tease that out, for sure. I really enjoyed this idea of Polish people who want to remain in Poland because that's like their home, you know. And just trying to make it a place. I think that's going to be one of the ending questions, you know, what are their hopes for the future? How can people you know, move to this place where they can build a society and build an area where they can be completely themselves. And so I want to hold on to that idea and bring that up a little bit later. Thank you. Gala, I wanted to go back a little bit to talk about your astrology workings. And I want to see how might your traditional Slavic values, maybe that you have been surrounded with ongoing in your life, how you maybe incorporate them a little bit into your writing astrology? Or how even being part of a diaspora community, how that might influence your work when writing about astrology?

Gala: I'm just feeling inspired a little bit by all the hopefulness. I think that, I'll say this. I think that when I came to astrology as more of a work than a hobby or an interest, so much of it has to do with the fact that in ways I was raised with astrology, it's like a shared language with my family, because it's pretty similar in Russian or post-Soviet culture. Soviet culture, as it is in the West. That said, I don't know. I think that as Mateusz was speaking, I was thinking about, you know, what it means to have pride in place, or like a nationalistic love. I think that I was very much raised without it. Very much raised without place, and in some ways, like a kind of - like, I feel like I was raised in a refugee Jewish community, which had a lot of pride in the fact that they came from a Jewish lineage. And also, at the same time, kind of had no God, and no rituals, no practices, right? No, no prayers that we knew. And so, most esoteric practice was sort of memory based. We light a candle on this day, we don't wear shoes in the house, I can't tell you why. You know, things like that were just sort of based on like a rule, a rule you inherited that you follow blindly. And so for me, I think astrology as I got older, and as I found, safety and pattern was a place where I could connect to all these different types of rituals and understandings about the largeness of the universe, without being completely far away from where I came from. And I do think that now as I inhabit this world. And like the astrology world, is kind of a world because they're, you know, on a, on a level of who's creating it and how there are just so many social media facets. So many different types of writers, many different types of people who are offering the same thing. But I do think that astrology is inherently invested in like the domino effect or the collective effect, right? So there's this idea that what happens there affects us here, right? That the sun is not shining on one side of the planet, for no reason at all. And that there is a continuation, and also that there is a story that happened before us and is happening after us. And I think that being in a lineage of people who were moved toward the collective, who sacrificed a great deal for the collective is information. Like I don't think that I was raised to believe in the collective. Like I actually was, I was brought into a country, I was brought into your country with this premise that now we'd like that we would have individual lives, right. And that being said, I was then raised in this sort of, in a tense, what an astrologer might call a kind of square between two planets aspect between people who actually wanted to escape a collective, authoritarian, totalitarian really, rule, and people who actually valued collective ideology as more righteous and more ethical. So this idea that I wasn't just myself, I was part of my family and I wasn't just part of my family. I was part of a lineage of people who survived numerous mass genocides, you know. I wasn't just, I wasn't just learning to live in a country for myself, but at the same time, also, one could never go back to what those collective ideas and beliefs lead us, right. So that tension, that place for me is a lot of the place where I write from as well. I think when it comes to astrology, because I think that astrology has always been political, has always been, you know, used in rulerships of presidents and kings. So I think that there's a sense that the, the stars that you might be interested in, in terms of like your love life, or whatever, like your new job, are also the same stars that if one were to believe it so, are impacting the people who make it hard for you to get that job. Make it hard for you to be present in your love life. I think that if I can use whatever medium I have, that maybe people seek for just gentle comfort or some sense of accompaniment, some sense of like, pleasure or relief, if I can use that medium to let people know that not only are they connected to a larger picture, but that larger picture is also connected back to them and their daily behaviors and their daily lives and what they think about, then maybe I'm doing my job.

Rebekah: Absolutely, that's actually really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. I think this idea of using different creative mediums, whether that's through astrology, with your music, finding ways to connect, to connect these different themes and different ideas that are inherently political, that we sometimes don't always see as being political and reaching a larger audience that might otherwise not choose to engage with it. So, thank you for sharing that. And then speaking of music, I wanted to go back over to Damir and ask, you know, how do you take this genre of music of sevdah, and how might this traditional music make sense, and how do you incorporate that? How do you speak to this modern world in which you're producing this music? I'm wondering what that looks like for you?

Damir: Well, there are many ways of course, and the very act of doing that today, at least at a time when I was beginning 16 / 17 years ago, the very act of doing that was in a way that you know, I was already, you know, quite active in, as a student in many feminist and queer organizations. I was already, you know, doing different stuff. And I remember some of my friends told me, come on, you're a young hip guy. You should do jazz or rock or pop or stuff like that, why would you do sevdah? You know, because sevdah was similar to the folk music in United States. You know, or country music was some kind of, you know, popular, extremely popular music, but it was some kind of a redneck music. One part of it was some kind of rural community music, you know, not all of it. And, but for me, I always saw other things in it. You know, I saw how important it is. And, and it was actually at the time end of the 90s beginning of 2000s, when actually quite a lot of music, musical groups or individuals started to see, like - I remember this, they were really good at the beginning, actually from Poland. So, they were doing Polish folk music, but in a really punk way. On the on the other hand, on this kind of research side, I completely feel what Gala just said, about finding some structure in this whole you know, crazy crazy world. And I remember when I was a kid, I read a poem by Rita Mae Brown and she said at some point, like you know, she's having cancer, she's queer, and she had so many layers of her personality and her body and her everything, but she said at some point like, which one of me, of I's, will survive all these changes? You know, what will be left at the end? So, I feel that what God said that this need to find some order in this crazy world, and for me, it's it's music theory and scales of this sevdah music because it's when you see it from that point of view, it's actually sevdah music, as a lot of Balkan music, is situated between two worlds. Two worldviews of music you know, one is a Western European, and another one is this oriental, usually Ottoman history gave us this, this oriental way of thinking about music, you know, which is different. And it's not like, completely different but they, you know, that they're places where they connect. So when you do theory, in Bosnian, in sevdah music, you're constantly with one leg you're in this Eastern world of hearing music and thinking about harmonies, melodies, and everything. And at the same time you're doing, you're doing it in the western medium. For me those scales and teaching them, researching them, and then teaching them and trying to find some order in that is also a way of doing that, you know. And of course, there are a lot of, you know, everyday usage of music in many ways. And that's sometimes with artists, it's hard to control it, you know, what your music is. How you convey it. And how will people use it.

Rebekah: Thank you so much for all that. I did want to ask in terms of like your music, are there any themes or ideas that you try to incorporate, like modern themes into your traditional folk music? And how do you incorporate those, like, what kind of language and stuff do you use, especially considering the, I guess, the traditional structure of the framework of music, how you choose to go about doing that?

Damir: Well, when I started doing it, I realized that this music was codified in the socialist time, in the time of famous socialist radio stations. So, there was a time when this, in former Yugoslavia, every different ethno national groups had their own cultural expression. And I realized that behind that there's a, there's just a peak of an iceberg, you know. A huge, huge, there's a whole iceberg of music, you know, that we just see the top of. And I realized that, that's why that's where I wanted to go. And there I found a crazy humane, everyday, everyday world of old recordings, interviews, everything, you know. And I was especially happy to find, and I used it in this exhibition I curated in 2015, in Sarajevo, where I can try to portray the history of this music behind what people usually know, through, you know, all the different materials. And I included many, you know, of course, queer stories, all the different other things that were just left out of official histories, you know. But for me, my idea, talking about writing about this music and researching it was, I never wanted to write the queer history of sevdah music. And I've spoken to many of my friends who are, you know, queer activists, or activists in different fields. And they taught me that, you know, if you do only this "small thing," you become some kind of expert in queer stuff, and that's your field. In that way, I realized that there is no history of music. Nobody, it has never been written by anyone on any, not even a positivist stupid, dumb, you know, kind of a book. And then I said, Yeah, I'm gonna write a history of the music. I have to take this mainstream position, you know, and push it. And my music and what I do artistically is completely different. And I, to be honest, I have no control of that. I was lucky enough to be invited to do music for films and theatre, a part from my scene of the stage work and performance quite early. And I started in 2007. And when I realized that I can do that. I can write, you know, when you work, in so called in functional music, which is theater, film and stuff that you have a director, you have a need for a particular music, you know, in a scene. So nobody asks you: What do you like? You have to do that, that as a craftsman, you know. You just do what's needed. So when I realized, you know, I can write the rock and roll song, I can arrange for chamber quartet, that I can do stuff for a choir and stuff. Then I realized, maybe there's a way for me to write sevdah songs, you know, because it's been decades since new sevdah songs kind of appeared. And that's how I started in 2007 and writing for myself and other people. My first song was traditional lyrics and my own melody. It's called Dva Se Draga Vrlo Milovala: Two Darlings Caressed Each Other. And that's a beautiful lyrics about two souls in love, but of course, mother and father forbids it, so they have to separate and they die and they buried them together, blah, blah, blah. It starts with this gender neutral description of two darlings. You know, Dva Se Draga Vrlo Milovala, for those of you who speak language, you recognize the pattern. And, there's been a lot of these songs in the history of sevdah genres and neighboring genres of music, but they were abandoned because they were, you know, modern culture didn't tolerate this gender neutral. So they become male and female, in the second part of the song, after mother comes in, and prohibits the marriage, or them being together, you know, and everything in this song separates into, you know, into genders, into graves, into everything. So I was so inspired by the lyrics that I wrote the melody to it, and that's how it started. So these days, luckily enough, this sevdah genre, I wrote a lot of songs for myself and other musicians, other performers. There are other people writing new songs. So, I think something is happening there. And a significant part of it also has this queer, I mean, there are different kinds of people in this in the scene. But there are also people who are who are pushing this new idea of what tradition is.

Rebekah: I really love this idea of incorporating, you know, different ideas and queer elements of culture into this new tradition of music and going forth, like in that way. And that's something that more and more people are starting to get involved with. And I like this idea of representation of like, the queer communities, especially if even if it's gender neutral, that it's part of the history. It's not like just made up, it's an ongoing thing. And so how can we modernize that and shape that for a new audience? And also thinking about representation? I wanted to turn to Mateusz and think about what does representation look like, especially concerning LGBT interests in young adult literature and children's literature? And how does that look specifically within Poland? And do you think that students and children are getting their needs met or interests met within literature?

Mateusz: That's a very good question. Um, there's a number of LGBTQ themed Polish books, mostly picture books and YA novels, and of course, there are a number of translations, mostly from English, but not only from English. And similarly to Ukraine and Hungary, such books usually become, quite, let's say, political, or maybe not the books themselves become political, but they become political tools. And this, you know, political, anti-LGBTQ+ discourse. For example, there's this really interesting book: Kim Jest Slimak Sam. I'm not sure if you've heard about it, probably not. So, yeah, it was published in 2015. By it's a picture book by Maria Pawłowska and Jakub Szamałek illustrated by Katarzyna Bogucka. It's quite similar to And Tango Makes Three, let's say, became similar because it caused a number of controversies because its protagonist Sam the snail, who is just starting school is a hermaphrodite. He's a snail. Yeah, I mean, Sam is a snail. Interestingly, both advocates and opponents of the book seem convinced about the power of literacy. In this book, when a teacher asks pupils to split into two gendered groups, Sam does not know what to do and hides inside their shell. And the school psychologist asks Sam to prepare a report on the storm that passed the area the day before. And to do that, Sam needs to meet and talk to several queer animals inhabiting the nearby woods. While the picture, while this picture book is biologically accurate, some Polish Education Officers ordered the book removed from school libraries as inappropriate for young children and for its potential to promote "gender ideology." And this is not surprising when we remember that an educational supervisor from lesser Poland tweeted that LGBT is an endorsement of pedophilia. And when we remember the fact that the former Minister of Education, Anna Zalewska, tried to ban Rainbow Friday. Rainbow Friday is a name of events aiming to show queer children and teenagers that school should be a safe space for all. And it's worth mentioning that despite the years of progress, the situation of LGBTQ+ individuals in Poland has deteriorated under the role of the populist Law and Justice (PiS) Party, resulting in the increase of number of suicides among queer teenagers. We have gay celebrities like Jacek Poniedziałek, Michał Piróg, and allies, great allies of the LGBTQ community, like Anja Rubik, who is a top model, you know, fashion model, Beata Kozidrak, this iconic Polish Madonna, let's say, or Taco Hemingway, who is a Polish rapper. You can read about him and the latest issue of New York Times, if I'm not mistaken. So when it comes to equality, Poland, a member state of the EU is closer to Ukraine and Russia than its EU neighbors. And of course, I'm talking about politics. But we do have a lot of books, like Sam the Snail, also translations like I Am Jazz, this picture book about a transgender girl, but what I find particularly interesting is that we don't have books about same sex parenting in Poland at all. And what, yeah, it's quite interesting, because when you compare Poland to other countries, including Ukraine, usually the first queer, let's say, I'm using this term really frivolously, let's say, usually queer themed, usually the first queer themed books are picture books about same sex parents, that's the pattern. When it comes to practically every single country, which has queer themed books, but in Poland, we don't have same sex parenting books. We have books about transgender children, we have books about like, YA novels about gay characters, gay and lesbian characters, of course, and I think that is quite - you know, literature, children's literature, YA literature is really crucial in the development of young people, and representation is fundamental. We all know that. When we compare the, like the number of picture books or just books, children's books in general, depicting children belonging to different ethnicities, the representation, like disparities in the representation are shocking. So most books present white children. Yeah. So there is this discussion about the need to include other types of children. And Poland is a very specific country. I want you to remember about the fact that 96% of Poles are white. Most Poles are culturally Catholic. I'm using this term "culturally Catholic" on purpose, because most Poles do not go to church at all. But being culturally Catholic is a totally different thing. It's all about customs, traditions. And this guilt. I don't go to church. I'm not part of this institution. But you know, cultural Catholicism is stronger. Yeah. So, though I was, okay, I was talking about children's books, and then I started talking about, you know, the church. Okay, so when it comes to the need to include such themes, it's quite similar. There are queer children, queer adolescents in Poland who need to see that they are normal, you know. And such books should appear in the book markets, such books should be published and should become part of the mainstream. And it's not enough to have translation of Love Simon and, you know, American YA novels. I think it's crucial to have local books, including local themes, or references to our local culture. And I think that it's crucial for the development of young people. And I know that I also take, I believe in the power of literacy. But that's what I've heard from a number of students who, throughout the years have told me “When I was growing up all of the books and all of the characters and YA books and children's books were just straight. And I've always thought that I'm weird.” I think that it's amazing that this situation has started to change. That we do have queer books, that we do have books featuring non heteronormative, let's say, elements. And you know, I've already said it, children are the future.

Rebekah: Absolutely, thank you so much for all of that. I think it's definitely important that the literature reflects local customs and traditions. And I think that every student should have the opportunity to be represented and feel represented, their family or themselves in general within this kind of literature. Because it's crucial to the development of young LGBT students and just other children in general to be exposed to such themes to learn about differences. I think that's incredibly important. But yes, I love the idea that you know, that things are starting to change. That there's, we're moving towards like a state of future. We're trying to incorporate more radical literature into like earlier settings in schools. And so my last question for you all is, what are your hopes for the LGBT communities from where you're coming from? We've mentioned radical changes within literature, talked about astrology, we talked about music. What does that look like for your specific communities?

Damir: Well, here's a good candidate, if you allow me this combination of nationalism and LGBT issues. An example of Bosnia, Bosnia is a small place. It used to have three and a half million people, when Yugoslavia parted. Now, I think it has, some people say not even 3 million people. And the thing is such a small place is really, it's really hard to have an authentic agenda for anything, you know, let alone the fact that we are completely politically paralyzed because we still live the consequences of dissolution of Yugoslavia. Because the Constitution of Bosnia is basically a peace agreement, which was signed in 1995. Like a ceasefire peace agreement. We still have that as a constitution, you know. So just to cement the opposing sides in the war, and blah, blah, blah, to stop the war. The problem with that, why am I mentioning that is that it's really hard to promote LGBTQ rights in Bosnia as an authentic need of the local people. And it's so easy, by opposing side nationalist fascists of all kinds from these communities, etc. to give it some kind of: "oh always this sort of guy, those are Americans, Angela Merkel, and Swedes are promoting you know, lesbianism" and that kind of stuff, you know. So that's why I think that's one of the reasons. And of course, the lack of tradition, why we only had Pride last year. And those people who are, who are doing it, activists, are brilliant. They really did a great job. We had a huge Pride, three and a half thousand people without any problems. It was a really beautiful day. And I see that, you know. But I guess and I would love maybe to hear if there's time for Mateusz, about, because Poland is such a big country with a strong culture and just in numbers, also huge country and market and everything. Is it in any way easier for such a big country to promote the need for queer rights as some kind of an authentic need? So you understand what's my problem? You usually have nationalists who are saying, you know, “yeah, but we never had gays around here. We were all straight. It's just when Americans came or whoever came, Germans, that we've gotten queer people.”

Mateusz: It's similar here, really.

Damir: I think, in a interesting way to connect nationalism and queer rights.

Mateusz Yeah, it's always somebody else's problem when it comes to LGBTQ rights in Poland. I mean, rights, maybe not rights. So once again, the biggest problem in Poland is that we are a monoethnic country. So there are no "enemies," you know. It's quite difficult to find a common enemy. After all, culturally Catholic, all white. Someone has to be blamed for everything. So the last few months our politicians, right wing politicians have decided to use, once again, to use members of the LGBTQ+ community as this enemy of the nation, enemy of the state, say that these are not people. This is just a foreign ideology of the EU trying to destroy Poland, all over the country, trying to destroy Poland. These are not real people There's this Polish Regional Education Authority called Barbara Nowak, who said that after the Coronavirus, we'll get back to normal quickly, but what about the long term effects of gender and the LGBTQ ideology? Coming back to the, to your question Rebekah, I would love my LGBTQ+ students to know that it's okay to be Polish and LGBTQ+. That is okay to be Polish and non-Catholic. That it's okay to be Polish Jewish and gay. That it's okay to be Polish and Black, you know. We have Afro-Poles are also discriminated and so on. But and I think that most of our problems come from the fact that we are so monoethnic. And of course, we know that when it comes to our history, it all changed after World War II. Because before World War II, Poland was not as mono ethnic. Poland has no colonial history, in this traditional, of course, understanding of colonialism. We're not going to dig deeper into local like, Ukrainian Poland, Ukraine, Poland, stuff. But we don't have this, I mean, we Poles don't have this colonial guilt. What I find really problematic is that nationalists, the so-called patriots have decided to claim this one particular vision of being Polish. And there's no place for members of the LGBTQ community and this, you know, Polish label and this particular identity. And in the last few months, young people, mostly young people, young queer people, have rebelled against this notion, you know, maybe not notion, against this vision of Polish-ness. They've been fighting. They've been using, you know, acts of civil disobedience. They've been rebelling against this vision, they are unapologetic, they don't care. They are, they are not here to just, you know, talk. They're here to fight. And let's be honest, you're probably all familiar with the current situation in Poland regarding the abortion rights, of the protests, and so on. The first protests in Poland this year started in August and these were protests initiated by young LGBTQ+ individuals who fought really. And what's happening now, all of the nasty slogans used by protesters are quite similar to the nasty explicit slogans used by of members of the LGBTQ community in August. But back in August, they were criticised for, you know, for using explicit vocabulary for breaking taboos. And now, the mainstream, let's say mainstream protesters, are using their methods. And this, I think, shows us how effective our local LGBTQ+ community can be.

Rebekah: Yeah, absolutely. That's beautiful. Thank you so much. And I think that it's super important to highlight, you know, the people who are on the ground doing the actual work. And they're the ones out here who are trying to make a difference for themselves and the ones who come after them. How about for you, Gala.

Gala: I think I've just been - So I want to say that I was thinking this whole time about bubbling of ideology that can create this sort of flattening of human experience. But I think that if one were to apply this idea of the flattening of the human experience, what you know about what you're fighting for, what you're good at, what involves you, what affects you into a general hope, right, for the collective. Like for me, I think if I were to imagine my hope for queer people in the US, it would be the same hope that I have for people in every country, which is that they hold otherness as sacred and they continue to. And I think that when it comes to queer activism, right, like when we see it in action, the people who have made the most difference in a lot of activist spheres pushing against government have been people who have been invested in human otherness as sacred and integral. So if you think about I don't know, like what was happening in Chechnya. And so many activists, like so many Russian activists were from queer activists, were actually creating secret, like were getting people out of Chechnya, and creating like secret lives for them to live in Chechnya. Queer people are constantly in, especially in countries where queerness is criminalized, but also countries where it isn't like the US theoretically, are constantly being placed in this business to choose between this idea of being loved and being part of a nation and being themselves. Right. But ultimately, at least for the US, as an example, like queerness is a part of the national story here. It's a part of the American story, if you think about it. Like there is this idea that people inherit, right? That isn't necessarily true, that if they come here, they can be whatever they want. Right? And so, in some ways, that is like this, like false bat signal, right? Like you get to come here, and you get to be whatever you want in this country, which is inaccurate, because then you could wind up going to a nightclub with all your friends and get shot for being who you are. Right? So there's this idea, then that a lot of people who come with, like what I imagined is a true, I don't know, I don't want to give it value. But I think that queerness, or aligning oneself with queerness has to do with recognizing that it's not something that you inherit from an authority, right. And so I think that if I were to imagine a true optimistic hope it would be that queer people as they are pushed toward action, as they are pushed toward some acts of sovereignty, that they hold otherness as sacred, as opposed to falling into traps of homo-nationalism, where they can serve the nation state, but also whiteness. So queer whiteness against like, people who are anti-racist and against the carceral state.

Rebekah: Thank you so much for bringing that up. I am absolutely in love with this idea of holding otherness as sacred, you know. Because I think a lot of the issues where we get pinned against one another and trying to blame our issues on this other, there's a fear of the other. And I think that's an issue worldwide. And so if we can come to a point where we can hold otherness as sacred, I think that we can move forward to a more promising future.

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

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The West Meeting Room - You Can’t Fill From An Empty Cup

Broadcast Oct 5, 2019

SPEAKERS

Mica, Tony, Sabahat, Sabrina, Rebekah, Savy, Aqeel

Mica: Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room, a new weekly show from Hart House student podcasting team. Today we are broadcasting live from the CiUT Maproom Studios in Hart House and we are grateful to live, work and study on Dish with One Spoon Territory. I'm Mica, and I'll be your host for today's episode. Today's episode features a conversation hosted by Hart House student podcasters Sabrina, Tony, and Sabahat. They were joined by U of T students Savy, Aqeel, and Rebekah who share their thoughts on failure, productivity and what it feels like to be a non-traditional student.

Tony: Amazing. Thank you so much everyone. And so I guess to get started, we were just talking about crying, and how healing that is. And so kind of in a similar nature, we're going to start off by talking about things that we want to start talking more about, is failure and how to normalize that experience because it's such a normal part of learning and growing as human beings. And so we'll start it off, like we'll just share, like something that we failed at and in a way that we're celebrating. So I guess you can think of it as kind of like an introductory rapid fire round. And with that, who would like to start?

Rebekah: I'll go next. Okay, so I, I was taking the introductory courses for International Relations, because I thought that that was something that I really wanted to do. That's kind of the reason why I came to U of T too, because I was like, Oh, I want to study IR. And then was taking the Econ courses and I realized this isn't really for me. I don't care enough about it to actually study it, to seek help when I was actually struggling in it. And so when at the end of the first year, and I was looking at my grades, and I was looking at how I felt about my courses, and I decided, I was like, Look, I don't even care enough about econ. There's no point in like forcing myself to keep doing something I don't actually want to do. So I kind of rerouted myself and did History and Russian, which is something I was actually passionate about. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like it worked out and like it was a much more niche department. So I feel like I know a lot more people in my department now and it feels like more like home rather than doing something I definitely did not care about.

Tony: Thanks for sharing that Rebekah. And I think it's nice to know that sometimes you have to just figure things out as you go and to really find the things that are meaningful and that you're passionate about. And I like that you talk about sense of home. That's really nice.

Savy: Yeah, I know. I'm like very hard on myself. Even when other people are telling you Oh, you know, you did a great job. It wasn't really a failure, but maybe we kind of it like blows up in our mind and we tend to ruminate over little things. That's what I do at least. I like ruminate over something a little and think it was maybe bigger than it was. Yeah, and label it as a failure when maybe other people wouldn't say it was a failure.

Aqeel: I can actually relate to that a lot. Um, I guess my instance of failure is a bit more like every day. And this, usually like when I'm like going through my to do list for things to do, like school related or just personal tasks, usually I find myself like, I've been making it a point to make more realistic task lists. But even when I haven't been able to meet all those tasks, you know, I just feel like that I am a failure and that I haven't really been able to like, live up to the standard that I sort of create for myself. But something I didn't really realize and something that I'm like coming to terms with now is that oftentimes when I do take my time to do certain things or focus a bit more on - do things a bit more purposefully, or even when I actually don't end up doing things that I intended to do, or things that I've written down. What I've realized is that maybe I actually needed the rest that I took between the time that I was doing tasks or things like that. And making the point to be like, yeah, you know, it's okay that I didn't really actually do all those things. You know, my productivity doesn't have an impact on my self worth. It’s something that's really hard to do, especially when everything seems to be either monetized or weighting grades, things like that. So it's really difficult, but I relate to that a lot. Because I think, you know, that everyday sense of failure can sort of accumulate and then at some point, you just realize that you haven't done X amount of things and then you look back and it's like, what do I do with my time? And it's really easy to catastrophize for sure.

Sabrina: I think that's a really big thing, especially that point of like, grades or monetization. Kind of like these values that are quantifying what we're doing and a big one that it's very hard to kind of put a value next to, but it's very important is health, both mentally and physically. As someone who tends to, you know, go, go go and then I realized I haven't eaten at all at until it's like five o'clock. That's not something that you can put a price on until maybe it's too late. Or until you run yourself so thin that you're like falling asleep in class or like you slept through an exam or you're so hungry, you can't concentrate. And productivity isn't the most important metric. But if that's what you're measuring your success on, then running yourself on empty is counterproductive, you know. Because then something important is going to come up and you're not going to be useful or able to come to task at all. So it's really important to remember kind of those other things that you might not readily assess the value to so then you don't necessarily think that it's important or Oh, it can wait later, I can sleep less or I can eat later on, or I don't need water right now. Those are things that catch up to you. And when your body says it's done, it's done. And that's just something really important to remember I think.

Aqeel: You can’t fill from an empty cup.

Sabahat: So this is actually just last week, so we do recording sessions usually every Thursday and last week like I had a meeting in the morning where we were just learning editing and stuff and then so like you said, like running out of energy, just like working, working, working. Forgetting to eat and stuff. I think it got to a point where when it came time for the recording session, I did not have the energy to come and so I was like, I can't make it. And I didn’t come and I still regret it. Like I feel like this is, I really enjoy this space. I find comfort in the space with these people. But I couldn't get myself to do it and I just see it as a failure. But I also think, which is usually something that happens with failure is that in hindsight, like when time passes by, you tend to realize that maybe that was important.

Tony: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of things that we're touching on is this idea that like, you know, you don't need to be “productive” all the time. Like the human body, it's like we have limited capacities and it's just something I've been reflecting a lot on because doing like a full time practicum where it's like an expectation to do like 35 hours a week and I was like, Oh my god, the body is not meant to work the full 35 hours, like it's just not.

Savy: The struggle of practicum is real.

Tony: I’ve thought a lot about how like, Aqeel, like you were saying, unproductivity is actually in itself, like very productive. You know, like, similar to what Sabrina was saying. Like, you need to like rest up and like, allow your body to not be under constant like stress. And yet there's like all these societal messages or like, structures that remind us that, you know, we have to be productive in order to like be seen as valuable. And yet – so it's really interesting about how like being “unproductive” as a way to, like you know, of taking care of ourselves is actually a really, can be a really radical way of responding to those kinds of messages, right? Like it's very like, No. I'm going to choose to like take care of myself and not stretch myself until I burn out. So yeah, I think that's like a really important point to bring up. And so thank you for, all of you, for sharing those thoughts. And I think a natural transition could be that we can go into a question that Rebekah highlighted earlier and which we can talk about. When was a time you felt you didn't fit the traditional mold or the idea of the student path/student success because I think it kind of touched on some of the things that we talked about during that rapid round. How are folks feeling about that?

Sabrina: I think, we're talking about when you don't feel like you're fitting the traditional mokld? So I think for me -

Tony: Sabrina, can you also maybe talk about what is a traditional mold? I mean, maybe that's something that we can talk about too, like what is the traditional mold of a student?

Sabrina: Um, as someone who has worked as a tour guide, in the recruitment center, and I tour for upcoming students, I can give you kind of like a “Wikipedia” definition of what a nontraditional student is. And from there, we can kind of extrapolate, you know, a traditional student and a non traditional student for a post secondary institutional standpoint is someone who didn't go to post secondary right after high school. Someone who may have a family, someone who may work full time and just goes to school part time. Yeah, someone who may be married, someone who may be over 21 or over 25. You know, if you think of an older student or an adult student, those are kind of when we say the words nontraditional students, that's kind of what it embodies. And traditional student usually embodies 17 through 19, coming to post secondary, you know, two months after graduating. This includes students who also take a gap year after graduating, coming in starting in first year, and going through their degree kind of that way. And a traditional student as well, which is a big pressure for a lot of people, is a student who graduates in four years. And I'm going to do a little pause, and then I'm going to go into my story and then we can maybe come back to both defining and going into our stories. But my kind of segue is I think for me, feeling like I didn’t fit into the mold started when I realized that I might need to take a fifth year and when I might have to take you know, four and a half years. I came in thinking that I wanted to study French, Spanish, and then Philosophy. But really I wanted to get into like a type three restricted program. Didn't get the marks to get into the type three restricted program. So I was stuck with Philosophy, French and Spanish. Failed second year Spanish because I really never learned how to study. So then I was stuck with Philosophy and French. So now I'm trying to figure out you know, do I want to do a double major? Do I want to do two minors and a major? And what would my new minor be? And in adding this new degree kind of in my third year, realizing that I have to take another year and I kind of came into school thinking, you know, I'm only going to take my four years, I'm going to work through summer and then going to go to graduate school and I'm going to take the bar exam and that you know, like all these prescribed ideas, and that's not happening. And it felt weird for a while kind of thinking like I might have to take a fifth year especially because it's some family pressures there that are kind of like you're going to graduate in two years, and you're gonna apply to law school, and this is what you're going to do. And it's like, yeah, that's what I said I was going to do when I was 16. But I'm 20 now, and maybe I want to do something different. And it's kind of feeling comfortable with that. And feeling as though this is another journey that's just as valid as the journey that I set myself on two years ago. And that I'm growing and evolving. And not as though I'm settling because I put myself on a path of failure because I didn't try hard enough two years ago or I was too lazy, you know. So that's kind of my two part to that answer. The definition from my experience of a traditional versus nontraditional student and where I felt nontraditional.

Tony: Yeah, thank you for sharing that Sabrina. And I think it's, it's like helpful to start to think about what is considered a traditional or nontraditional student because I think it's also like - I like that you provided a very like objective sort of definition because it is important to think about that too, and the ways that we navigate academia. When I think about, like, the things that come to mind for me with this question is, I think a lot about how sometimes I'm like the, not even just like the only person of color in my class. Like, sometimes I'm the only, actually like a lot of times, I’m like the only queer person in my class and like, how it makes me feel sometimes. And it's weird, because it's not even just like, the physical presence of that too. It can also be like sometimes feeling like this pressure, like, Oh, so you're the only person that can talk about queerness and being racialized, and we expect you to, like talk about those experiences. And this is something that I realized I was like, Oh my god, how can this happen? But also, it also made me feel like - so for me like that traditional mold is feeling like I may not necessarily belong in those spaces, and there's like reminders of that. And that's what I think about like, Oh yeah, like I don't feel like a “traditional” student because the way that the structures were built didn’t have me in mind historically when they built them. Like we have done a lot of changes in terms of inclusivity, but I think it's important to be mindful that like, there's a lot of historical impacts that still lingers on today. And I think that's really important to acknowledge. And so yeah, that's like, I just kind of want to offer that sort of like other understanding of traditional students and feeling not like you might fit or for me like not feeling I fit in the mold either.

Rebekah: Yeah, I can really relate to that. Like I identify as a Black woman and especially studying in like the Slavic department, like, I've definitely experienced being like the only racialized person in a classroom and if not, being like the only queer woman of color in the classroom as well. So that's something that I'm always grappling with, especially like, when people question my ability to speak Russian or my ability to even learn Russian or ask me Oh, like why study Russia like you don't look like you would be the kind of person who would want to do that. But it's something I'm passionate about. It's something that I feel like I'm relatively good at. So that's kind of what I wanted to continue doing. But the other thing that I thought about in terms of not being a traditional student in terms of being a student here at U of T is that a lot of people like to call UofT U of Tears. Like something that's a place that's really stressful, really sad all the time. And I don't necessarily feel that all the time. Like there are definitely moments when like, towards the end of the semester when I am stressed, but during the course of the school year, and maybe it's just because of the program and my program that I'm in or the way I've chosen to build my schedule, but I don't like to be stressed and I'm going to take all of the ways and make my schedule around a way that doesn't make me feel stressed. So even though I've taken a lot of courses and I give myself a heavy course load, I like to give myself breaks during like the day to hang out with my friends or play sports, that kind of thing. I had a girl message me on Instagram. She's like, Wow, it looks like you're actually enjoying U of T. And I'm like, well, because I'm trying to. Like, I don't want to be sad here for however many years I am. Like, I want to enjoy my time here and make the most out of my experience here and make some really cool connections and meet some cool people. So if that means like, I don't know, even though I've lived off campus, like making more of an effort to be on campus, and like be involved in clubs or be involved with like, student life, then it makes me feel better. Like I don't want to be sad. So, and like, I know that there's some people who, like, genuinely have a hard time doing that. And maybe that's just my own personality. Like, I like to reach and grab those opportunities, but that's just something that's made me feel better. And I feel a little bit weird when people always tell me how stressed they are like, well, if I didn't get that paper done, it's not done. So I'm just gonna have to go to sleep now and because I would sleep over everything, so.

Sabahat: Yeah, so while we're talking about definitions and what's traditional, for me, I think when I came here, because I'm an international student, That's what kind of set me apart. And I think you don't realize it until you're in that space when most of the people are local people, like they're from here. And having an international kind of, even like small things like having a international passport like how difficult that makes it for you to get the visa. Like I was supposed to do, like I started a semester later to what I was supposed to actually initially start, because I had my visa got delayed. And it's just like these little things that you're struggling with. It's like, your energy goes into those things where other people don't really think about it. And so in a way you're kind of spending a lot of energy and doing the same kind of work like explicitly doing the same work that like let's say your class is doing, but you have all these pressures and then something like finances is also a issue because international and free is ridiculously high. And yeah, I mean, I'm lucky to be here. I'm privileged enough to be here, but not everyone can. And people who are on scholarships, like it's the whole bureaucracy and red tape of that is just ridiculous. I feel like someone in a one number position should not be expected to do all that by them by themselves, you know, they should be advisors or someone should like, walk them through the process. It should not be up to the student to figure that out. And that goes even for like someone struggling with mental health. You know, you're like, oh, if you want to leave, you have to go get this papers. I'm like, Yes, but if someone is struggling already, how do you expect to do that? You know, and so there's little things that you're expected to do with the whole process like bureaucracy form filling, which I feel like if most people are able to do it should not be expected of everyone. Because not everyone would have the energy or the capability to do that or just not be familiar with the process honestly. So yeah, I don't

Savy: I don’t know. I feel like I’ve had a traditional undergrad. Like I went straight from high school and I did undergrad in four years. And then I did my Masters and then I graduated from my Masters. So yeah, I had a very traditional journey. But I can definitely relate to just kind of feeling that pressure with stress and feeling like you need to kind of keep up. Like in undergrad, I would always maybe study too much and stay up too late and put self care a bit on the back burner. But it sounds like you are figuring it out like in your undergrad, which is great. Yeah, and then in my masters, had more focus on self care, which was really great and still kind of felt that pressure to study and kind of get perfect grades and I don't know, I just always felt that pressure. But I feel like it's the pressure that I put on myself and then also from peers and from professors. But just trying to focus more on self care and yoga and seeing friends and doing different activities on campus and trying to get more involved. I was part of the Black Public Health Student Collective at Dalla Lana which was great. And I was also, in my year, I was the only woman of color in my program at Dalla Lana. So like definitely feeling that as well. Like feeling kind of out of place but also having that safe space with everyone at Dalla Lana to share stories and meet new people.

Tony: Thanks for sharing.

Aqeel: So for the traditional student, for me. It’s a good question. I mean, I feel like we kind of touched on it already. But the idea that a student should always be stressed. What they do in their spare time is just like, shop online between lectures and just complain about like celebrity gossip and turn out papers, study for tests, do a hobby and like that's it. For me, I found it really difficult to attend classes and go to lectures. Because I felt that like, we could have been doing so much more with the authority that we do have in university. So for me, it just, it was really troublesome to have to just write about things when one, I was not only trying to like process stuff that I was directly involved in. So like, being the object of study while also trying to study is really difficult. Some people don't - sometimes academia is structured in a way that is meant to exclude people. And in that sense like, I find it really difficult to just be able to write down things and just like churn out essays and papers, when we could have been, for example, organizing or things like that. I feel like for academia, there's only so much you can do to sort of like process things, write things, sort of like bat ideas around and critique them when that's only really like half the battle. I think that knowledge is important, but it's only realized when you meet it with action. So being able to just solely focus on like doing these mental exercises of writing and like turning out papers and studying for tests and that grind, I find it really difficult. Like for me, I think it was really important to sort of like remind myself that I was not just a student at an institution, but just in general, a student of knowledge. And that knowledge extends beyond the institution. But also just kind of like beyond the classes that I'm doing into just trying to learn about the world like on my own terms. So in that sense, I felt like I sort of deviated from that traditional mold of a student where they were just sort of like okay with just passing through the sort of structures that are already in place when I feel like there's a lot more work that has to be done to make them more accommodating to people that would like to think outside of those structures.

Sabrina: I think your point on writing is really important too, because in the discussion of, you know, traditional versus nontraditional, the way that we are assessed, and the way that we learn, kind of creates a mold of a traditional student as well. Not everyone's writing is their strong suit. And sitting in a room listening to someone talk at you is not the best way to learn for everyone, or most people. And it's kind of unfortunate that it's not until third or fourth year that you get into a more intimate kind of relationship with your professors and with your peers to where it's more relational. I remember in first year I did a Ones program and the classes are a lot smaller and I went to those classes so much more than my larger lectures because I just had a higher relationship with my peers and with my professors, and they would ask me, you know, “why aren't you here?” if I didn't go to class. So it's like, oh, other people notice if I'm gone, you know. Whereas my lecture of 500, no one cares. I mean, I'd someone cares, but no one's chasing after me, you know. And it was nice to kind of walk into a class of 17 plus my professor after you not going for a week and have him pull me aside and say, “Hey, is something going on?” And I think that's another big thing, you're talking about to being the subject of a lecture while also learning about things in an institution that can acknowledge colonial pressures to kind of hide certain histories of racialized people or of queer people or what have you, and then prides itself on you know, uncovering these histories and we're going to learn about them and like all the things that happened to First Nations peoples or to Black people, or to gay people, or what have you. But then not realize that the narrative that you're proliferating also means that racialized students or queer students in your class, this might be the first time that they're hearing stories that relate to them on more than just a textbook level. And it might be, you know, they might be using this to realize, you know, this is why my mom acts like this or this is why someone acts like that, and it becomes a more real lesson. And then you have to sit there and write a 2500 word paper on like, you know, the Stonewall Riots or the Trail of Tears or whatever, and you're, like crying thinking of your grandmother. And there's, there's not a lot of support for that. And there's not a lot of room to, to kind of work through that because the institutions are made for people whose histories are told and who kind of have confronted and understand where they come from, and aren't necessarily ashamed of it. And also made for the people who wrote the history in the first place so it puts them in a good light. So I think those are really good insights.

Sabahat: Yeah, just continuing - like so speaking about being like, feeling out of place in classes, I think one thing that I would just like to mention is that as hard as it is, I feel like it's kind of a sign that you're probably thinking more and you're probably more like, I don't want to use the word smart, but you know, just like engaging more with the material than people who are just passive. Because, so I remember one of my undergrad professors saying to us that you know, in a class, if you're not uncomfortable, you're not learning. You know, and because with learning all these things about how structures work, how systems of oppressions work, where you're, you're making sense of, “Oh, my mom or my grandma was part of this oppression” and just like historically making sense of it, but it's so personal to you. And I feel like that discomfort should not - like it's unfortunate that it has to be there. But I also see value in that because if you are uncomfortable, you're unlearning things. You're learning how to navigate these systems, how these systems work, and I think you're more likely to think about it in a very contextualized way than someone who cannot relate to the history and is just there to kind of produce papers. So I feel like there's value in that.

Tony: I think sometimes when we think about academia, like it's, and we touched on it, how there's like definitely like this one way of doing things, one way of learning, one way of gaining and producing knowledge, without recognizing that there's so many ways. There's so many learning styles, but there's also so many knowledge that is produced outside of academia that is just as valuable, if not even more valuable, that we don't even have access to or it's often like cut off. And I think a lot about how I think sometimes even this pressure of feeling like you need to like learn knowledge in a certain way can be a very, and when you're not able to do it, it can feel like we're placing the onus on the individual. And yeah, I like that we talk a lot about like the different structures that are play, like the different systems. Because it's true, like I think those are very much - it informs the ways that we're able to like access knowledge and gain knowledge and share that knowledge. And while recognizing like the larger forces at play, we do talk a lot about personal agency. So like, how do we navigate these structures because structures don't change over time, unfortunately. And so, I was thinking for our next transition, we can do like a really quick, rapid fire round because, you know, I kind of heard some folks talk about, like, you know, self care. Like things that we do to, you know, help us be able to, you know, not just survive, but also thrive as well. Like things you do to like, take care of yourself, your body, your soul, your mind.

Rebekah: I play on my college’s intramural volleyball team. That's something. I was super passionate about volleyball all throughout middle and high school. I've played for like eight or nine years and when I'm not playing volleyball is like when I'm sad. Actually, when I'm playing volleyball I’m my best self, I'm feeling the best about myself. So yeah, we won our championship first semester like this past year. And that was like really, I felt really proud of that team because it was a new team and we had a lot of new players and the fact that we were able to like put in the work and like see actual results and like see people improve over the course of the season was really cool. And I think that was like, not super common in New Colleges’ intramural history or for volleyball at least. So that also felt really good to be a part of that team that made that happen. And it just gives me a break in between like studying all day to like, actually not be sitting at my computer and like actively doing something. So going to drop in volleyball at the ACA or the Goldring is like the highlight of my day because I get to leave the library and actually like run around and do stuff and sweat even though I hate sweating. But like, I don't know, like volleyball is where it's at. So I try to get as many people involved in intramural sports because I think it's a really good way to release tension and also meet a lot of new people. Like I feel more part of New College’s community for it.

Tony: That sounds really nice. And it makes you happy?

Rebekah: It makes me so happy. Like I'm the happiest.

Tony: And you deserve that. That's really lovely. Thanks for sharing.

Sabrina: Following the thread of athleticism, varsity cheerleading has been - I didn't do it in first year because my joints, and my wallet, and I was sad for it. And I wasn't as active. So that's kind of what keeps me going. It's kind of like that small class that I had in first year. Having a team of people and as a team sport, having a team of people that really rely on you. Things can't really go forward if someone's missing. It's nice when people check in on you when you're not around and it's nice to kind of work as a group towards a goal. Aside from that, I think just I've been foraying more into sustainability and kind of a zero waste lifestyle and a minimalist lifestyle and like Tarot and energies and things like that and kind of connecting with spirituality. And also connecting with the earth. I find a lot of the technological and industrial advances that we've had, that are slowly killing the earth, are also negatively affecting us like physiologically just as human beings. So in trying to give back to the earth and be nicer to it you know, and produce less waste, I've also been foraying into you know, cleaner eating and cleaner habits and doing less of things that are also self-destructive for me, either mentally, or to my eyes, or sitting too long, things like that. So that's been really nice, because I feel like I'm taking care of something else. Because it can be hard to take care of yourself. But indirectly, I'm taking care of myself.

Aqeel: I’m trying to like recall the things that I do. I guess for me, this is more seasonal, but I really like to garden. So I spend most of the year just waiting for gardening season. Just waiting for you know, it's not the best in Canada, but it's something that I do really enjoy. Like being able to connect with the earth but also literally seeing the fruits of your labor makes me really happy. In addition to that, like getting into fitness is something that was like really was really important for me. Just being able to go for walks between classes in a way sort of became fitness because fitness is not just going to the gym and lifting weights. It's just being able to take time to do things at your own pace and enjoy it. As long as it gets your heartbeat like up. I think that's something that's like more fitness oriented to something like that. Being close to my family I think was something that was really important to me. Like they really do ground me. In addition to that, this is more of like a spiritual practice, but I really do, because I'm Muslim, I do pray. And that's something that, you know, I find extremely healing and being able to actually connect with more people that do that on campus was something that was very gratifying. I never really actually grew up around people that make it a point to be like, “hey, I just, you know, gotta go to the side and pray” or something. So, it was nice to be able to like be affirmed that it's okay to be able to, you know, just take a few seconds and pray. It's hard to do that at school though. Because, you know, school isn't really built, for example, like being able to take breaks like that, but it is something that's like very, very healing for me.

Sabahat: Yeah, I feel that. I feel like - so I identify as Muslim as well. And I think praying is something that has become like a software thing. I should probably do it more often than I do it now. But I think religion holds a very important place in my life. And I think it gives me a lot of peace in times of chaos, which is literally every day. So something for survival, I think something that I've been, recently like I've learned to do, which was really hard, is that when you're at a very low point, it's really hard to reach out to people and ask for help but I have been, I've been able to do that lately. And I just, I'm just really proud of myself for doing that. But I think yeah, that's like a survival thing for me. And something that I took up like a month ago was I've always wanted to learn how to swim, but I never got the chance. So I enrolled in a class and now I have a class every week and it's amazing. That one hour is like, amazing. So yeah, just doing different things.

Sabrina: Can I resource sidebar? Do you all know about the fifth floor in Robarts? So there's a prayer and meditation room on the fifth floor. There's yoga mats, there's prayer mats, pillows, yoga blocks, it's super awesome, serene, if you can like make it up there.

Sabahat: Okay. Yeah. And there's also a multi-faith center in Koffler.

Tony: Amazing. Thank you for sharing all those lovely tips. Oh, okay, I guess I'll quickly share one. So one thing I've been doing is I've been going to a sexy dance class. So it's actually a particular, it's taught by a lovely instructor who identifies as queer trans, as a person of color. And it's like, a dance class that's meant for just queer trans people of color and it feels so nice. Like, I know just to have a space where other people share your, like, identities and lived experiences. And also for me, like find your sexy is like, you know, when we're dancing and, you know, yes, it's about feeling sexy, but it's also feeling more at home in your body, which is something that I've been thinking a lot about, and the ways that I need to feel at home is like being able to reclaim you know, parts of me that you know, that I've been taught to feel ashamed of. And actually now it's like nice to celebrate those parts where I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna celebrate my femmeness, my queerness and like reclaiming that has been really healing for me. And to do that, and just share that story with other people who, you know, yes like, we are different in a lot of ways, but we're also like, you know, we do share a lot of like similar experiences and we're able to like kind of grow and heal together and like celebrate each other. And I think that's pretty rad. So yeah. Braeden did you want to share something? It looks like you do. We would love to hear you.

Braeden: I was just curious. I have been thinking because, you know, you've talked a lot about dance as a place of healing and returning to your body. And I've been thinking about that a lot, because I feel, I feel pretty disembodied at times. So I wondered if you would have a piece of advice for someone like me to like - like what's a place to start to sort of like get to know my body again?

Tony: Oh, my god, that's such an amazing question. I think giving yourself time to figure things out. Because I know for me, I didn't start dancing till like three years ago, but it was always something that I was really interested in doing. And part of it is like cultivating that self love. And that looks so different for everybody. And I think for me, it was like intentionally taking the time to spend it with myself. And whether that's like, kind of really like, really looking at, okay, what are the needs that I have? And those can change. I think in a lot of ways when we do self reflections, they definitely can fluctuate and change over time. And that's absolutely okay. Because I think there's something really meaningful about reflecting on how what you thought you needed or who you are a year ago can change so much today. And like, I think there's like some really meaningful insights that can be gained from that. I think for me, I just found dancing to be something that was such a powerful outlet for me because it was something that yeah like, I think a lot of complexities around feeling like my body wasn't quite my own. And a lot of that was like, I've internalized a lot of things growing up, and then me like being able to express those frustrations. Because I think part of reclaiming your body, it's like not, it's not like this - definitely, it is a beautiful journey - but there's also a lot of moments that don't feel beautiful. And I think it's important to take, like, hold space for that. I think that was really important for me, was to be really honest about the ways that I haven't felt like - what are the reasons that made me feel like I needed to reclaim my body. And that can be really hard. And I think it's important and like that's not something you have to do on your own. I think part of it for me, I've been really lucky to have found a community, friends who kind of like helped me along the road to do more of that healing work. And so this is a great segue into our next question. So thank you Braeden, because I know we just talked about self care. And something that we also want to focus on is not just about things that we can do for ourselves, but also ways that we can practice community care. So going beyond just the self because it can feel like a lot of pressure to feel like you have to take care of yourself all the time. What are ways that we can reach out to our communities, and why is this important? And that's the hard question because it's like, what does community care look like?

Sabahat: I think for me, I think it's important. I see it as important because when you are dealing with it yourself in isolation, I mean, it could very well work for you. But I think there's a different kind of comfort to be in a support group and to hear people talk about their experiences, right. And it's literally what we're doing right now. So I think community care for me is sharing experiences, being there for each other. And being there, again, does not mean that you have to provide advice, or you have to provide a solution. Being there can literally look like you're sitting with them, listening to them, what they have to say, and sometimes, honestly, just asking what they want. Because people generally know what they want, they just don't know how to ask. And so that's what community care looks like. To have a system where if you're feeling isolated, you know, you can go to this particular group and just talk about it. And yeah, have like regular meetups basically, so that you don't go to that place of isolation.

Rebekah: You kind of like mentioned before in our conversation about being like a social person. And like being in isolation can be really hard. And I feel that totally. And I find that happens a lot during the school year, especially when you're like trying to crank out papers or you're trying to do readings. And a lot of the times I would end up doing it by myself, but then I would spend so many hours by myself during the day either just like looking at my computer or with I don't know, books and stuff like that, that I felt like I wasn't, I wasn't getting enough out of my day. Like I would just go home and spend an entire day not talking to anyone, because I'm just reading all day or writing all day. And so I made a point to reach out to my friends, especially during the school year, because a lot of them had mentioned to me that they felt the same way. Like I spent a lot of time in the library just by myself. And it's like, well, if we're both studying we might as well study together. Like why do this in isolation. And even if you have to take breaks and it might take a little bit longer to get that reading done. You feel less alone doing that or less alone doing that work. So yeah, I try to reach out to my friends more during the school year, especially during like times of stress, like peak stress during midterms season and stuff like that, just to make sure that “hey, I know you're probably going through this too and I'm going through this, let's go through this together.” So we're not alone in doing this because that doesn't feel good.

Aqeel: I think what's really interesting about how we navigate University is this idea that the “real world” sort of exists. There's school and then there's like, you go move on to the real world, when in fact, like, the real world is very much in touch with school. Like, for example, when you look at, like worker conditions, or like, why people are organizing and labor unions. Like, you know, capitalism sort of alienates workers, and in a sense, the University alienates its students, and, you know, with that, it's like, when you itemize people into like, just individuals, it's really difficult for them to, you know, foster collective action and take care of each other, which I think is like really important, and I really grappled with this question this year. I just finished my term with my term with the Muslim Students Association as an executive. And the work that we do there is, to me, like absolutely crucial. You know, just given not only the rise of Islamophobia, but like more subtle forms of it. Being able to create room for each other to just kind of look after ourselves to sort of reconnect with our faith, reconnect with people of knowledge was really important to me. Because, you know, you can go through the motions and when people have, you know, identity crises, faith crises, it's really difficult, like we were saying earlier. It's a struggle, you know, by yourself. And in that sense, when, you know, an institution like the university fails to cater to the individual. The responsibility unfortunately falls on the students staff to create that community for each other. And I think what was absolutely amazing was just watching us organize around the mental health crisis. Like that was something that you know, All our, this is going to sound very, like liberal platitudes, but across all our differences, we are able to, you know, reach a consensus around the fact that there really was a crisis on campus and the university really had to grapple with - the students’ voices essentially became a voice to be reckoned with. Where, you know, we were able to organize among ourselves. We were able to pressure admin by disrupting, by calling to the attention of media. Which really kind of threw off in the sense that like, perhaps, you know, perhaps U of T is not just only known for their research, they’re actually known for creating really detrimental conditions for their students. So things like that, like community care, in a sense, is essential. And I think you can kind of find that in clubs, you can kind of find that in just your peer to peer networks, your interpersonal relationships, your family. Like things that move beyond like, just the ordinary, isolating activities like we were kind of talking about earlier.

Sabrina: Yeah, I think it's interesting how you're talking about the isolating experience and also, you know, leaving baggage at U of T if you have baggage at U of T, but I kind of wanted to challenge that notion because I feel like a large portion of why the systems work, the way that they do is because the students are transient. And despite the fact that we're the ones paying for a product, we’re probably some of the least permanent aspects of this entire institution. So it's really easy for those who create policies and who create systems and who get paid to kind of change infrastructure and architecture and renovate things and change course enrollment and selection in ways that are counterproductive and counter intuitive to student needs. Because we really aren't here that long to do much. And while we're here, we're working. We're studying or forging relationships. We can't spend all of our time fighting administration. But some of the people who are best equipped at fighting administration, are alumni. Are people who have worked through it. Are people who have graduated. Are people who, you know, their protesting may not directly - they don't fear that their protesting will directly affect their marks or their standing or whatnot. And they have the capital to back it up. U of T raised what was it? Over 3 billion in their Boundless campaign and a lot of that came from donors and alumni. So when donors and alumni, especially alumni who’ve had that experience turn around, and they say, “why am I funding you? You know, it took me six years to graduate.” Not that that's a problem. But what is the problem is it took me six years to graduate because I never got adequate mental health services. Or when I was struggling, this structural issue, this part of the paperwork, messed me up or I didn't get my degree because of that. Why would I give you $200 or $2,000? So I think that's kind of a way of creating community as well is not leaving your baggage at the door. And that's not to say, you know, don't move on from it. Like move on from it. Live your best life, you know, forget about U of T, you know, leave your baggage at the door and forget about U of T. But when U of T comes a knockin and they want, you know, a $20,000 endowment because you became the next second VP of, I don't know, Google or whatever, turn around and say, why would I? I forgot about you. And I want to forget about you, and why would I help you out? You didn't help me out. And I think that's a big part of community that's difficult for university students and students. Even in high school is if you think about dress codes or sexist practices and things like that, is that the individuals who are permanent in these institutions are not necessarily the individuals who these institutions are meant to serve. And those who are meant to be served are transient. And it's hard to have a foothold if every year you have a new cast of characters and a lot of your greatest advocates have graduated and then you need to bring all the first years up to speed and by the time they understand what's going on they’re in third year and you're graduating.

Rebekah: I just relate so hard to that.

Tony: Really, yeah, thank you for bringing that up something that was like, really, really important. So for our closing, it's not really a rapid fire, but it's basically a nice question to end on. So after just like, you know, sharing, holding space together and being able to listen to all the different wisdom that's been shared, and also the wisdom that you shared with all of us. Now, think back to your younger self, whether that's the person that was making that transition from high school to first year. Or for us, Savy and I, like either thinking about that transition right before grad school, or just like any transition in your life where you're thinking about your younger self and some things that you might say to that person, knowing all the things and all the experiences that you've gained now. What is your older self now going to say to your younger self?

Sabahat: The only thing I would say to my younger self is it's not your fault. And that applies to a lot of things. I feel like my childhood was surrounded by guilt and me blaming myself for every single thing that was happening. And it's only just recently that I've decided that okay, no, like other factors were involved in the situation. So, yeah, I would just say, “girl, it's not your fault.” Yeah.

Rebekah: I think I would tell myself, it's okay like not to have a plan. If you told me five years ago that I would be sitting in Toronto, because I'm from the States, I would be like “why? Why would I be there? Wait, how did I end up there?” And there's a lot of different things that you can't foresee and a lot of variables that happen that you can't predict how things will turn out. So I'm very interested to see what 25 year old Rebecca will be doing because it's definitely going to be something that I can't predict right now what that will look like. And I'm working on new job right now. And every day we have a plan, like a schedule of things that are supposed to happen. But every day, something doesn't go according to plan and something is happening. And you just have to kind of figure it out on the spot and you can't predict that. Like a kid's going to go missing or you know, you can't predict that the buses are going to show up late, but you just have to like, take it as it comes and like make your best outcome out of that. And so, I think that that's been a really valuable lesson I've learned. Especially these past couple of months, because I'm like, the type of person who likes to plan and then likes to know what I'm getting into and what kind of options are available for me. But going forward, even looking at graduate school, I don't want to limit myself because I don't even know what things I'll be interested in like a year and a half or something like that. Or even like what kind of options or people I will meet that will influence the way or influence where I might want to go. So I don't know I'm just open to like as many opportunities, as many possibilities as possible. And I don't think that 16 or 18 year old Rebecca even really understood that.

Aqeel: Um, advice that I would give to my younger self would probably be to trust in incremental change. The idea of moderation. I know for me, something that I have, I've always had like really bad like perfectionist tendencies. And with that came a really - a very negative internal monologue. So I'd always be really hard on myself for not, you know, living up to the goals that I had, when I was younger. And also taking, you know, whatever knowledge I did have being able to put it at service to people around me. Something that I always kind of grappled with was the idea of like, evolution. I didn’t have the term for it at the time, but now I sort of have it now. The idea that, you know, at one point in time, change is going to happen for the people that deserve it. But in some cases, it definitely does work like that. In other cases, it's small moments that eventually galvanized into change. and postponing my ideas for evolution, not abandoning them, was something that I probably should have told myself when I was younger. Because I always thought, you know, if you just worked hard enough, things would change and things will be better. But and again, where it kind of relates to the idea that everything is your responsibility and you have to achieve it on your own. But like being able to remind myself that I do need more people to be involved there. If we do want change for the better and like being able to teach myself that change happens in increments. And like, being able to, for example, challenge negative self talk, it takes learning to really appreciate things that you are good at, so that you could eventually use the good that you experienced by treating yourself well to create good for other people, you know, in the long term or even like in smaller effort. So it's, I would teach myself that like incremental change is really important and that things may not come as, as fast or as quick as you may like. But it doesn't mean that it's not possible.

Savy: Something I would tell my younger self, probably in first year, would be to really just try and enjoy the process a little bit more. And don't be so focused on where I need to be, or what I need to be doing. Just be more present and just try to enjoy the moment. I definitely had a lot of imposter phenomenon, right? Yeah, I felt like, Oh, I need to be studying so much. And I just, I spent so much time studying and didn't enjoy I think a lot of experiences where I could have. So I learned that more. But yeah, I would definitely tell myself try to be more present and enjoy the moment. And even now, like in my job, people will ask, well, like, what do you see yourself doing? And I just think well, like, this is what I'm doing now. Like, I want to be present now and be grateful for what I have now. Right? So there's always so many places that you could be or possibilities and opportunities where you could work and where you could do grad school and that. But just, I'm grateful for where I am now. So I'm trying to focus on being more mindful. Practicing, like gratitude. Making meaningful connections with other people, community and trying to focus on how I'm feeling in the moment and not on, is this what I want to do? Like, this is what I'm doing and I enjoy it. So, do you know what I mean? Yeah.

Tony: Thanks for sharing that. I love that so much. Being grateful for the moment. And that's actually going to be something similar to what I would tell my younger self. And something that I've been trying to remind myself is like, I think it can be really easy to get wrapped up in the uncertainty of the future. I think sometimes it can be really scary to think about things that I have literally no control over and cannot predict. And at the same time also just reminding myself of all the dreams I used to have, like I'm living those right now in this moment. And thinking a lot about how, yeah, like I've always wanted to, you know, dream of trying to live in a different city, doing a Masters, continue to explore and find myself. And also like, challenging myself. Like this whole podcasting gig. Like, there were a lot of dreams that I've had that have come true. And I think I'm just like, taking a moment to really appreciate that and just remembering like, how much I used to dream of being where I am right now. And for me, like, I don't know, I think that's really beautiful. And I, and like, of course, we can continue to dream of other things too. But just taking that moment to really be grateful

Savy:And be proud. Be proud of yourself.

Tony: Yeah. To be proud of ourselves.

Mica: Thank you to Savy, Aqeel and Rebekah for sharing their insight and wisdom with us. And thank you to Tony, Sabrina and Sabahat for fostering the safe space for this meaningful conversation. And a special thanks to Carly Stasko, Braden Doane, and Day Milman for their help in producing today's episode. These conversations were recorded as part of the Peer Wisdom Talking Walls exhibit. The West Meeting Room is a production of Hart House Stories. Our intro outro music was produced by Dan Driscoll. To find out more about our team and the Talking Walls exhibit. Please visit harthouse.ca and be sure to follow us on Instagram at @harthousestories. I'm Mica signing off as your host for today's broadcast of The West meeting Room. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.

#student #community #care #learning #study #experience #relationship #navigating

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thewestmeetingroom · 3 years

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The West Meeting Room: You Are Enough As You Are

Broadcast September 28, 2019

SPEAKERS Saba, Aisha, Ruvimbo, Tony, Chemi, Gen, Nermeen, Carly

Saba Hello and welcome to The West Meeting Room, a new weekly show from the Hart House student podcasting team. Today we are broadcasting live from the CiUT Map Room Studios at Hart House. And we are grateful to live, work and study on Dish with One Spoon Territory. I'm Saba and I'll be your host for today's episode. Today on The West Meeting Room we will be featuring one of a series of conversations we recorded over the summer centered around peer to peer wisdom exchange. U of T can often feel like a difficult and isolating space to navigate. So our podcasting team spent this past summer gathering conversations with students and recent graduates to find out how they cultivate self care in their lives. These students and recent grads invite us into their conversation about taking up space, building meaningful relationships and how to take care of yourself while navigating systems of oppression.

Aisha My name is Aisha and something I'm proud of that I've started doing in particular, in my fourth year of study, which I just finished, is I'm living a more balanced life. I think my first three years in particular, I was taking - I was kind of in a go go go kind of mindset. Everything was focused on how can I dedicate the most time possible to my academics, to the extracurriculars, to all the research and the activities that will get me into grad school. And my priorities were very much centered there. But somehow, I don't quite know how I had a bit of a mental shift, where I realized that, you know, I may have had certain accomplishments on paper, but I wasn't feeling as fulfilled as I would have been had I been spending more time with family and friends and on my spirituality, and kind of living in the moment a bit more. So I'm proud that I think I've achieved a more balanced lifestyle without necessarily giving up what I was doing before. So my life just feels more holistic right now. Okay,

Ruvimbo My name is Ruvimbo. And something I'm proud of is just being more self aware and more self conscious. Reading this book, very popular best selling book called The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I highly recommend it. I'm reading it with my workmates and as a team and we're all just going through it chapter by chapter. Aach one of us taking a chapter and kind of breaking it down, dissecting it and seeing how it could be best applicable to our lives. And so by reading that book, I think I'm becoming more sensitive on myself. Like me as a person, but then how that's impacting my relationships with other people. And so I'm really proud of the fact that I'm able to kind of take ownership of myself, my flaws, my faults, and all the good things, good things and bad things that come with me. And just working on being a better person for myself and for others. Yeah.

Gen So, um, I kind of don't want to answer this question, because it's kind of hard to find something I'm proud of. Because in past months, I've done a lot of, or not something that I've done is, I did not achieve a lot of things I should be proud of. But I think the one thing that I'm proud of this month is that I got my willpower back, which is very, very difficult I realized. I didn't know until I lost it and I mean, they're just days I just want to wander around at home doing nothing. But I, I believe that my personality is driven by willpower. And without it, I felt like dead. I mean, some people, they're really relaxed because they like that kind of, you know, environment. But for me, I always thought, oh, there must be a reason, there must be a purpose. And once I lost that purpose, I can't do what I do. So I'm, I'm proud that I changed that perspective. There's so much more to just, you know, aiming for one purpose, so I'm proud of that.

Chemi We’re glad you're here too.

Tony Thank you for sharing. Hi, everyone. My name is Tony. And something I am proud of is I've been thinking a lot about tenderness. And I've been reading this book called On Earth We’re Briefly Gorgeous by Ocean Vuong. And there's this line he writes, where he says, “sometimes being offered tenderness feels like the very proof that you've been ruined.” And this line for me, hit me so deeply. And I've been thinking a lot about how I seek tenderness in a lot of ways, and how that relates to a lot of things that I've been working on and healing from. And how, for me, it's just like thinking about how I also felt like I needed to believe that I deserve tenderness and also that I can show myself that tenderness rather than seeking it from other people. While I always appreciate it from people that I love. I think right now, it's like, the ways that I can show up for myself and be tender with myself. And doing that is like, can be really hard work. And so I'm proud of myself for coming to that and also just like being a work in progress. So yeah.

Chemi Alright, tashi delek everyone. Hello, my name is Chemi and very grateful to be sharing this land here. I know that it belongs to the original stewards, the Indigenous communities, the First Nation, Métis and Inuit folks. So grateful in any space that I take up because I come from stolen land myself. So the dynamic is always very interesting. And something that I'm proud of, you know, it's always hard question for me as well. And I would say overall, my identity, who I am as a whole, specifically my rich Tibetan Buddhist traditions. So that's something I'm very proud of, although it is something that I had the privilege of inheriting at birth. That is where I find my strength and keeps me going every single day. And yeah, I think the concept of my people is very interesting because it reminds me the teachings of impermanence, that it's forever changing. Right. And that was, for me, that sort of experience came along when I came to university because for me, my people had always been my community, my Tibetan community. And I'm a community organizer and an activist in that sort of space. And, you know, had experiences organizing rallies for over 2000 people and stuff like that coming into university. But when I came to university, my people became just the athletic society where I played sports. I played competitive sports, tri-campus and things like that. And that was sort of my people. And then I would come and take neuroscience and biochemistry the first few years. So I was like, Okay, I didn't belong here. But this is sort of my clique. But then moving forward in our third year and fourth year, I realized that many of the sort of challenges and issues that my community faces, specifically the youth, when it comes to, you know, being an immigrant family, being most oftentimes the first generation to access higher education, coming from low income families, gentrification happening in their communities. All of these sort of challenges and issues that my community was facing and I was trying to address was the same thing in Scarborough. And I realized, oh wow, there's a whole lot of other communities. They're all just like me or they're all just like my siblings that need that help. And then I thought to myself that maybe this is my chance to go beyond my own community and rejig what I mean by “my people”, because oftentimes, people are brought together through similar sort of experiences of pain and suffering. So in that sort of space, I realized that wow, like, if I can be useful here, why am I exhausting myself in only one community when I could be helping my other Tamil brother or my Tamil sister or Tamil either or, right. And so yeah, I started there. And then I started getting involved and I realized that the work was really just the same and hence why now I’m much more involved on campus along with my community.

Ruvimbo Thank you, Chemi. It was really interesting how you mentioned how you wanted to go beyond your particular community. And you were seeing similarities in other communities that may be not necessarily where you were from, where you're rooted in, but you saw a need there to support those same things. And I was just wondering if we could maybe, if everyone's comfortable, we could go into that discussion.

Aisha That question I find really, really interesting, because when I was listening to the question and thinking of community, I was thinking of community in terms of maybe kind of the ethnic sense or the national sense or the cultural sense because of your, Chemi's, earlier answer. And my experience on campus was very much not having found that kind of community at all throughout my entire four years here. And so when I, when I think of kind of supporting my community and the issues that I've personally find very important as like kind of a Muslim Canadian, as a hijab wearing woman, the issues that are important to my community are things that I've had to kind of bring up independently. And it's been very, it would have been very difficult within the spaces that I inhabited on this campus to find other people who maybe had similar perspectives. If I'm thinking, particularly if I'm taking the example of like Islamophobia, for example, I think in my first year in residence within my college, I was the only person there who were a hijab. And to my knowledge, I was the only Muslim woman in the residence or that I was interacting with on a daily. I'm sure there were others who probably didn't want to bring it up. So it was less an experience of finding community in other kind of related groups and more of trying to share pieces of my community with other communities. So one thing that I found really useful was talking about my own experiences and kind of personalizing Muslims to people that maybe you hadn't interacted with them before. Or writing in the college's magazine and kinda drawing people into my community. Like putting Henna on them, letting them try on my Pakistani clothes, and things like that.

Ruvimbo Thank you for sharing that.

Tony Thank you for sharing that Aisha. I think there's a lot of things that you mentioned that really resonated for me. I think it's tricky navigating academic institutions where I think oftentimes there can be a sense of loneliness, when there isn't kind of that access to a community. And I and I do, I really appreciate that you talked about kind of sharing those pieces of your community to communities. Also recognizing it's a lot of work and it's a lot of labor. It's a lot of, not just like physical or like emotional labor that sometimes is expected. And I wish sometimes that there was kind of this more mutuality of like, folks also doing the work and getting to like, you know, any forms of like, discrimination. It's like it's something that is wrong but oftentimes gets normalized in very subtle ways. And I think that's part of like, where allyship for me is a little bit - there can be a lot of tensions just because there's a lot of ways that folks may claim to be allies but it can be very performative. And I think what I mean by that is like without kind of that mutualness of like working, making the effort to like really dismantling the very things that make people feel lonely in the first place with like - because I think like communities can also consist of, you know, folks of different backgrounds for sure. But there needs to be like, I don't know, this idea of mutualness, I think it's really, really important. And I'd be, and I would love to hear kind of like other folks like, thoughts and ideas kind of around I guess a couple of things - whether it's like - I know for me, it's like navigating kind of that sense of loneliness. When, you know, that sense of community isn't always obvious and also like, what it means to have other people also show up for you while you're trying to shop for yourself. So now there's like a couple things that I'd be interested in hearing more about.

Ruvimbo So a piece of advice that, I've actually recently heard this and I've been trying to practice it, is to focus on your circle of influence and not your circle of concern. And just to briefly kind of explain what that means is that there's so many things happening in this world around us in our lives that we're concerned about. But there's not many things you can change. So to focus on your circle of influence is to focus essentially on yourself. Because you're the only thing that you can change. And by focusing on yourself, you can then influence other things around you to change. And so that's something I've been trying to do. I carry my own weather within myself and then not letting outward things affect me. And by doing that I'll be able to have a more positive influence on those things.

Gen Sorry, I just, I just thought of like a star trek quote for it. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be all nerdy. It's just some - it's kind of difficult isn't it though? Because some people might think the needs of the many outweigh the needs of you. And every time when you try to put yourself ahead of everything people might find you, you know, like, selfish? Or, I mean, I think it's very important to self care and I have been having trouble because I'm always afraid of what other people think of me. So, what makes you, you know, go for that?

Ruvimbo So it's not so much as being like selfish in the sense of just focus on you. It's you. I can't change you, but I can change me. Right? So rather than, Yeah, it's rather than “it's all about me and I don't care what's happening outwardly” it's, I” can always change those things because they're not me.” The only person I can change confidently is me. So I think that's why I've been going for that often because if someone is upset, having a bad day, I can't make them not have a bad day because if they're having a bad day, that's them. But I can change how I approach them with regards to the day that they're having and not let it then affect me to the point where now both of us are having a bad day.

Tony I think my – the wisdoms that I’ve received has been, kind of related. I think it's believing in the positive intent of human beings. This idea that it's okay to make mistakes, as long as there is a willingness to be accountable and also like a willingness to repair the harm. And I think a lot about this because I think sometimes making mistakes is part of learning, but also understanding the impact that sometimes our mistakes can have. And that it is really important that when we're able to like to really repair the harm, and it's not necessarily like our self worth, that's on trial when someone tells us like, “Oh, actually, this thing that you did was not okay.” And then just like to learn from that and I think the positive intent comes from, like knowing that we can change and you know, that we don't repeat the same mistakes in the future.

Chemi Yeah just jumping on that. I think the truth of suffering is that everyone suffers. And then when you acknowledge that you get to see the human side of the other person. And then other pieces of sort of wisdom is that you're not alone. I think a lot of people need to hear that. And when you know that, you know a lot of people are subjected to suffering - not a lot - everyone is subjected to suffering in one way or the other. I think you realize that you're actually not alone. And then the last is that you are your own savior. I think that's something that has really helped a lot when I was growing up, and because of the sort of things that came in order that you know, suffering is part of life and you're not alone allows you to be the bigger person and then actually strive for wisdom and the eradication of ignorance.

Aisha So one ritual that I started this summer is just carrying a journal with me everywhere. So every single time I think of something that I think is wise or I learned a lesson or I reflect on a day or a conversation that's been particularly impactful, I just write it down. And I find that writing it into permanence and as something that I can look over later, has meant that those lessons are things that I'm carrying with me in the days ahead. And I like to think that it's helping me improve as a person and just generally how I'm going through my life.

Gen Definitely, the commitment that you’re actually putting it on paper really changes like oh you’re storing it up in your brain and you might remember it later, but then I guess drawing it out or writing it out really, really means that you respect that memory.

Aisha Right.

Gen That's beautiful.

Chemi Being intentional with your mornings, or just being intentional in general. So today, I'm going to smile at one person, or - you'd be you'd be surprised how often days go by without you realizing how much you've actually done things intentionally,right? So intentional mornings are great because knowing what you're going to do, accomplish today. I'm going to, before the day ends I'm going to, I don't know, buy a coffee for somebody- whatever it is. And then the other is when you're going to sleep, things that you're grateful for. So having a grateful list is always helpful.

Tony I love that, by the way. Being intentional. That's not something I thought of before. And I think for me, kind of similar to what you're both saying around like reflection, I started scrapbooking. Which started off as being like a joke that like I may get married one day and I have to give something to my wedding planner. Something that's like - I've been reading Bell Hooks All About Love and thinking about like, oh, romantic love shouldn't be at the top of the hierarchy. Like that's ridiculous. Like there's so many different forms of love. And so my scrapbook is about my friends and my family who like give me the most beautiful cards and then I just like scrapbook them and then we take photos I put in there and it's a really good reminder for me that there's so many ways to feel love and then, and I'm being taught how to be loving just through like all these different ways that love is showing up in my life. So yeah, scrapbooking. And as a way to you know just like redefine love has been really good for me

Gen I was actually going to comment on your habits. I'm not saying they're similar, but I think that we're actually making an effort to move away from the digital world. Like we're doing like physical things. We're trying to interact with real people trying to interact with nature and I feel like we're moving towards an age where these things can be replaced by I don't know taking a picture and posting it on Instagram or something like that. And I don't know what kids do these days, but I feel like a lot of people don't do physical things for personal reasons anymore because, simply because they can't share it. Like it's, not like you're recording where you're going and then you post it online, or you're not really scanning every page of your scrapbook and post it online. I mean, you might share it on your wedding day, but yeah. It's beautiful. So, um, I find it, I really appreciate that we're always trying to move away from being replaced by these robots or artificial intelligence and we're doing it for ourselves. So you're doing things for yourself and other people. Yeah.

Tony Thanks for sharing that. I think it's a really, you bring up a very like complicated, like, some complicated relationships that I definitely feel around like, the way that we navigate like technology, social media, and also feeling validation and like intimacy and it's really tricky. And it's like, and not to say that folks who post on social media is like, you know, an issue - it's just thinking about being more critical about our relationship to that. And, and like, sometimes I know, I just like, put them together. But sometimes I need to work in like just handling them apart. And that requires work. Yeah, it's it's complicated. It's Yeah. So thanks for bringing up those nuances.

Nermeen So mine is kind of something that I started in the summer as well. But I've just been making myself be outdoors every single day. Because I feel like when you're busy especially, it can be a tendency to just be going from place to place and coming back and forth. But I tried to give myself like, half an hour to an hour where I will go outside like while it's still light and do like -you're just going to sit, you can do what you want. Like, I won't go on my phone though. I’ll like either read, like journal or something like that. But I just try to do that to just be in nature a little bit. And I think, I don't know, like it's - I feel like it's helping my mental health a lot just because it gives you that moment where you decompress, and you can just like process things. And I really like that.

Aisha So one lesson that I've been trying to carry forward with new relationships I’m forming or as I'm getting closer to other people, is setting those boundaries proactively either with your words or with your behavior. So that I'm always keeping my own well being in mind, even when I do want to support others.

Ruvimbo That's great. That's good. I think that's important. And having those boundaries set up, up front, like you're saying, is so important because - and I see this quote often - you allow, you, I guess the essence of it is you are giving people permission to treat you a certain way. So if you have boundaries from the beginning, they know this is acceptable. This is unacceptable. This is, I can't cross this line because the other person just cannot handle this. I think that's very important. But as you were talking, one thing I was thinking about as well is understanding the way that you yourself give and receive love. So I've never actually read the book, The Five Love Languages, but I've done like the quiz and read a little bit about it. And I think it's been super helpful because then you can even communicate with people - and again, this goes for all relationships, not necessarily just romantic. Just to say, hey, this is how I receive love. Secause we are more inclined to give love in the way that we want to receive it. So if you are someone who values quality time, and I realized that that's me, my priority is to spend time with people and to be there like physically. Like let’s have this time together. But someone else might value words of affirmation, and the quality time may not necessarily even be top of their list. So me being there for them but not saying anything that's affirming to them isn't really doing much for them. So, and I think that comes with knowing yourself too and assessing yourself and realizing what do I do? How do I want to be loved? And inversely How then can I understand other people's love languages and how they receive love? So I think all of it yeah, it goes to loving yourself, as you were saying earlier, Tony, and just self love is important. And I think if you don't have enough self love for yourself, it's really difficult to then be able to give back to anyone else because you are depleted. You're working from a very empty source. So yourself should be the first kind of basis upon which you're working. And then you have more resources to give, more love to give out to others.

Nermeen Like what you're saying about setting boundaries with people, I find myself often in the same position of being someone who cares a lot. And I think with love languages as well, like I know mine is acts of service. So if I, if there's something that I can do for people, like I will always do it, even if it means like, I'm not going to sleep. I'm not going to like, be able to finish my own work or whatever. Like I will always try to support people. But I find that that leads to me feeling drained and feeling depleted sometimes. And so I was just wondering if, in general with your own experiences of like setting boundaries if you have any tips or like, anything that you do, or like for yourself or even with other people like what would you say or do to set those boundaries?

Aisha Sure, I'll jump in, just because this is definitely fresh on my mind. One thing that I found myself doing more and more during my degree was I'm a scheduler, so I like to schedule my days. And if I see myself, it applies to not only self care, but every, all my commitments in my life and I consider a commitment to self care to be one of my commitments. When it comes to academic commitments. If I'm stressed about a certain class, I'm putting a two or three hour block of time in my schedule for the next week to study for that class. Or if I'm feeling drained, where I have in my schedule, like go for a walk with my friend, I'll extend that from one hour to two hours, and just kind of think ahead. But in terms of communicating it, to answer the second part of your question, I found that it's a lot scarier to think about than it is to actually do if someone is genuinely friends with you and you tell them, Hey, I'm feeling really drained. I think tomorrow I'm going to take a self care day. I'm going to go to Harbourfront, get a beaver tail, and I'll see you like on Monday. They're going to, if they're a person who does care about you as much as they probably should, they'll be supportive of that.

Tony Yeah, I want to say, thank you for sharing those insights. Especially like, I like boundary setting as a way to show that, (what I've been reminded), I care about the relationship and also caring for ourselves, too. So I really like the things that you brought up. Yeah, you know, just opening it up.

Gen But it's difficult to set boundaries, because Are you saying we're too close? Or I mean, I, I just think I would definitely feel that way. If I were them. I'll be like, Hey, are you saying we hang out too much? Or are you saying that our relationship has gone to the deep end, like in a negative way? So how do you acknowledge or how do you clarify these boundaries with them?

Chemi Miscommunication is so undervalued I think, in any sense. There is no such thing as perfect communication. Because the moment, like even this moment right now that we're sharing, very grateful for it, first of all, is that whatever words are coming out of my mouth, you folks will interpret it in a different way. Right? Because you will understand it based on your understanding, your experiences from different parts of the world, and all the things that had to come together for you to be here today. Right? So acknowledging that in the first place, like really helps because you know that there's miscommunication in every single place, right? So it's bound to happen, whatever you're like sharing right now is being miscommunicated or misinterpreted in many ways, right? And understanding the nuances of it. So if it's a friend who knows you for a really long time, it is expected that they know, they share many memories with you or they share some experiences so they better understand that you, but, again, better understand you to some degree. But never necessarily the same way that you want it to be. Right. So just understanding that takes one whole like weight off the shoulder because you're like, like, you know - they're not actually receiving everything I'm giving them already in terms of information. And then the other thing is doing, like practicing what you preach basically. What do you need? And actually starting to practice that with your friends. I've seen a quote where it says, before I ran to my friend, for the first time a friend asked me, “wait, like, are you mentally and emotionally sort of able to take on the rant right now?” Just checking in. Like, quick check ins always helps. Right? And that really helps because I do that with my friends. Or I'm just like, I'm ready to burst because politics is politics. And I come into a room just like “hey, like, Wait, are you ready?” And then they just like, yeah, and then, right? But then there are some days where they’re just like, Nah, I'm actually tired. And I'm like, Okay. And then I'm, all of a sudden, I realized that even I, my rant, just kind of calms down. And it's like a conversation for later that I save. If not, if I really need to rant then I call somebody else. And right, like, it can be done. And then I feel like the next time my friends feel the need to rant and I'm like, drained, these questions are like organically coming where they're like trying to ask me whether or not Chemi like, are you okay? And I'm like, Oh, it worked. On the inside. But on the outside I'm just like, yeah, I'm ready.

Ruvimbo I like that you do that with your friends. And I think it builds like the system that you've built based on honesty as well. Like, if you're not ready, and they say, I'm not ready, you respect that and that allows them to be able to do the same thing for you. And I think that's the essence of it. Just you have to be honest. If you teeter around, like, you know, this is okay some days, whatever and you're not really communicating it, it's easy again, for that miscommunication to come about. I mean, it's always going to be there, like you were saying to me, but I think it's more apparent if you yourself are not confident in what you're saying. And saying, like No right now. I honestly emotionally cannot take this on. And I'm not saying that what you have to say is invalid. I just don't think I'll even be able to support you if you tell me, and I don't think you want that either. For me to be half hearted. You’d be like Yeah, okay. Oh, wow. So bad.100% Listen. And I think people appreciate that. We underestimate how much people do appreciate honesty, right? And just want you to be authentic and tell them what's up. And it may be hard. I think in the beginning, you might not always get that response. But I think like Chemi was saying that if they're really your friends they should be able to understand where you're coming from and to know that you're coming from a good place and it's not every day that you're saying I'm not ready, and I think that's there's something valuable in that.

Chemi Yeah. And start doing it yourself. I like if you do it, then your friends will start to do that to you. Right, like you can be the sort of the stone that goes in the water and has ripple effects and it comes back. The karma does come back. Something that I've been thinking about lately is ambiguous complacency. Or being complicit, but there's a lot of ambiguity around it. Because there's always like, I've always been sort of clear cut with wherever I say because I do a lot of thinking inside, where I'm just like, no, this isn't right - like a lot of analysis type of thing. Or like fighting with myself. So with that, I've always been like, Okay, if you're not part of the solution you are always part of the problem. And so like I’m always about like, social justice terms and have grown up in a space like that, because every Tibetan that is born after 1959, which is when we lost freedom is an activist, is what we say in our community. So, but this whole concept of ambiguous complacency has come along a lot along a lot these days. Because, you know, you could be in solidarity with certain communities, but you not speaking up in so many spaces is very violent, right? That violence that has the impact it has, like, as leaders and community, are we ready to take the blame? Or like own up to it? Like in certain spaces. But then in some spaces like you have to find the boundary of again? Like, am I emotionally able to take on that labor to educate this person when I really cannot do it? Yeah, was more like around a bit, they just kind of -y'all can jump in and share, please or give me tips because I'm like in that space right now.

Tony Thanks for that question. I think it's a really, it's a really hard one. But it's also a very important question to ask given the political climate that we're in. Um, I think in a lot of ways, like navigating complacency and like, also like in the context of what it means to negotiate when you're in, caught like in these different relationships of power and balances and negotiating personal safety, but also like what your values are? It's an ongoing question without necessarily answers to. Yeah, it's, but it's bringing up a lot of things. And I think, how do we unpack that? Not even just a complacency, but also the ambiguity around it is kind of what I'm still trying to process.

Nermeen Um, I think that this is something that like, I do think about often as well. And I think that um, I think it's kind of interesting that it's oftentimes people who are already involved in activism who feel like a greater sense of responsibility. And I think being kinder to ourselves is like really important, because otherwise, I do feel like burnout is real, and like feeling like you can't solve - well, like you want to solve as many problems as you can, but also knowing that that's like physically impossible, and there's so many things in the world that like, even if you were working on like causes that you care about 24/7, there would still be 100 things that you were like, I haven't even addressed this or like done that. And I think that, like, I've definitely experienced having that kind of feeling of being like, even if I'm applying a certain amount of my time and something that I care about, like I - it's not really making an impact, or like thinking that like I can, you know, like, just to give the example of climate change - you can be like, okay, I'll stop eating meat and like, switch to metal straws or whatever. And at the same time, like knowing that there's like, I think there's like 100 companies that are responsible for like 70% of carbon emissions. So like, knowing that statistic, you're like, nothing that I do is ever going to make an impact. At the same time, I do think that it's like acknowledging that no matter what work you do, it has value and that it's making the world a better place even in a small way. And like, allowing that, like the smallness of the action to be big, I think is really helpful. And so I think like it's something that I'm trying to practice more with myself, as well as just being kinder and like, okay, I'm not perfect. I'm not like the perfect activist or like the perfect leader, but at the same time that like, as long as I feel like I'm better today than I was yesterday, I think that's all that matters, like in the long run, because it's all that you can control. Yeah, I don't know if that helps.

Ruvimbo But also to feel like you don't have to. It can be exhausting honestly, to try and explain and educate over and over and over again why people should be caring about certain things. And honestly, I think I got to that place as well. Where I was like Why on earth do I have to keep telling you this? Google it! Dang. It's not like this is stuff that you can’t find if you just didn't, if you literally typed in something on Google. But yeah, I don't think, first of all, you can't solve all of the world's problems. Just by yourself. But as a person, you can make a step towards helping. And I think that's what I've had to consciously tell myself. So just for context, I work in international development, and particularly on the African continent and because that's my background and my kind of positionality, that's a community that I was familiar with and grew up in. But, you know, some of the questions that come my way, or some of the things that people say, especially in this political climate, where the President of a whole country is quoting countries like mine, I won't repeat it because it was a very unkind to say, but - and then having to go around just, you know, just like dispelling all of that and trying to break down all of those things. It's it's emotionally exhausting and just can be traumatizing at times. Because it's like, Why don't you get it? Why don't you get that like, I'm just trying to live? People like me. I just want to live. People in places like mine are just trying to live and why do I have to constantly tell you and validate my, my living my life?

Gen Or prove yourself.

Ruvimbo Exactly, exactly. And it's not fair. I think it's hard because you feel like as an activist and social justice champion, that you should be the one that's telling everyone. If you miss a beat, you failed. But you haven't failed, you haven't. All of the efforts and everything you're doing is valuable, is worthwhile. And don't discount it at all on a comment or the two or three times where you just didn't have the strength to say anything. Because, again, you are not responsible for someone else learning something that they could have easily gone somewhere else to learn. So don't put that kind of pressure on yourself and don't feel like you should be the one solving everything because, yeah, again, it's impossible but you're doing enough and acknowledge you're doing enough. Believe in yourself.

Tony I oftentimes feel like an imposter when I'm like the only, not just the only like personal color in my class but also like the only queer person of color in that in a class and I feel like an imposter because I forget about how imposter phenomenon is very like symptomatic of like the different systemic issues. I'm like, Oh yeah, academic institutions are built on capitalism, white supremacy, colonization. Calling it all out here. And you know, but, but it's important because I like again, like I think imposter phenomenon, again, is very situated in the individual level. And I think sometimes that can be very like, we blame ourselves but I'm like, I don't know. I think there's like other larger societal structural forces that make certain - not to say that no way like only certain people feel like imposter phenomenon - I, from my experiences I know, like, there's particular, you know, folks in the community that it's very consistent and that feeling kind of like failure and not belonging. And I think that's not like a coincidence. So, yeah, anyways.

Aisha I think I echo that. So a lot of the time if I'm the only person of color in a space, and I do, since I did kind of grow up in those spaces, it is something that sometimes I'll be used to it. But whenever a mindless comment is made, that kind of triggers a memory and then I'll take a scan of the room and be like, Ah, that's why I'm feeling off. Like, I see. I see. Now I remember.

Gen I think identity, like what do you look like and what you act like is, often there's like a discrepancy between the two and you feel like an imposter. I feel like, I feel like my whole life is being like an imposter, basically, because I grew up in one city and then I was born in another, but I spent equal amount of time. And, and it's I didn't know how it's happened. But it is possible. Because I'm 22, I’ve been 11 years in one city and there has been 11 years in Toronto. And in a way I feel like I am making up false memories just to fit in. And in a way I'm enjoying it myself. And that is why it is a positive problem, because I do remember back in high school people were bringing up there's this power outage in Toronto back in 2003. But I wasn't even here. I'd never even heard of this city back in 2003. But I kind of lied and went along. I was like, Yeah, I remember, I was there. My house flooded, blah, blah. But in a, in a terrible way that I'm enjoying because I felt like it meant I'm in espionage and I don't know if you guys have the same feeling when you're hiding yourself because there's some sort of mystery within you that you felt that you can pretend to belong.

Tony It's really vulnerable to share that. And I think it's, it's absolutely relatable and not to take away from the experience. Yeah, I felt that when, when I was little I would lie about, like just growing up low income. Like I would always lie about what my parents did. Yeah, it was like a sense of shame, but also that desire to want to belong, right. And so, thanks for Yeah,

Gen And the worst part is that you start to enjoy it, right? You're not like, Oh, I'm so alone, but you start to be like, Oh, I fooled these people. I can actually put up a facade.

Tony I don’t think there's anything wrong with that, you know. Part of creating those fantasies, there's a reason for that. I think it helps us to like, cope or to feel it, to feel something that we don't necessarily need to justify. So, thanks for sharing.

Ruvimbo I think I felt imposter, the imposter phenomenon in academia actually. And particularly when I was in academia at this institution, again, I was one of, I was the only person of color in a lot of my classes. And so I felt like I didn't really belong there. And that maybe they had made a mistake when they sent me my acceptance letter. So I spent my entire masters year just kind of feeling like, wow, when will I mess up? When is the ball going to drop? And when are they going to find out that this is the worst decision they ever made? And then there was one particular class that actually kind of drove home the point because I was sitting in there and I just didn't, I never understood what was going on. And I would look at everyone giving their contributions and be like, well, I, this confirms it. I was never meant to be here in the first place. And so yeah, and so I think now I've had some, I really want to go and do my PhD, but I'm hesitant about it because I'm concerned that I might not be able to, to live that facade for five years of my life and feel like an imposter the entire time. So that's a little bit about where I felt it.

Nermeen So I'm Pakistani, but I have never lived there. And so I feel like a really strong sense of imposter syndrome whenever I either go to visit Pakistan where my family lives, or if I'm interacting with people who are Pakistani, and who have like, grown up there. Because there's always this thing of like, Oh, yeah, like you're, you're Pakistani, but you're not funny enough. Like you, you can speak the language, but you can't speak it properly. And I like, I won't get references or things like that. And like, and yeah, because I grew up in the Middle East. And so even over there, like my, a lot of the kids were from South Asian backgrounds, but their parents like either lived in like the US or the UK. And so they would, they would often say like, Oh, yeah, we're not like Brown or we're not Pakistani or Indian. We're British or American. And so I used to kind of like, I would say, as well, I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm Canadian. Because I lived here for three years. I'm not from Pakistan. And so I think like having that weird relationship to my own identity. It is still something that affects me now, even though I've tried to improve the way that I think about my culture and like where I come from, and like my ancestry, it's still something that is, I don't know, it's just weird to me.

Gen Do you find that imposter status is amplified by how they treat you? Like, do they put you on a pedestal and be like, you don't belong?

Nermeen Definitely. I think it depends on the context and the people that I'm interacting with. There's times that I will hundred percent feel that way or people will make a comment, like, oh, it doesn't count like what you say because like, you don't really get it or like you're not really Brown, like you're not brown enough. And I find that like to be quite frustrating, but like, what I do think is that I think the narrative is changing, or a lot more people who come from these kind of like third culture backgrounds, where their like, their parents are from somewhere and they have grown up in a very different culture. Like they're getting to, like have more narratives, and they're in movies and things like that. And so like, I feel like I find myself reflected more there. So that helps me, yeah.

Chemi Similar feelings. Very existence for me, I think is always resistance. Never seen home. I've never been to Tibet. My parents haven't been. So there is like three different generations of just like moving around different countries. Very interesting. Ahen I was 22, last year actually, before this March, I spent half my life in South India, and half my life in Toronto. Yeah, so when you're saying I was just like, yo ringing bells. Same thing, same thing. Oh, yeah, I remember that every - I wasn't there. But yeah, I remember it. I went to that school too, but I didn’t. I think a lot of that comes from like a lot of internalized pain for everyone. And so when you do see that from someone else, doing you know the same thing, faking it til they make it, I think sharing that pain and knowing, letting them know that you know, it's a safe space for them to not feel like they're an imposter. And then, something that has helped me is self deprecation humor. So, of course with confidence. Now, I'm not saying you beat yourself up in certain spaces, but acknowledging that you are like a whitewashed Tibetan, in Tibetan spaces where people have lived their whole life, you know, with the disadvantages of society. Whereas I was privileged enough to get an education in the West, right. So when I'm there, I'm like, Yeah, I don't get that reference. You know, I'm the white washed person, but teach me about it. Tell me about it. Right. And because of that, I've been able to immerse myself in certain spaces where I'm like, wow, these people don't cut me out. They’re like yo come through. And you know that this is all, like I'm seeing the results or the benefits, reaping the benefits of that sort of understanding in the past few years. So now I'm starting to see it like, inclusion everywhere. And I'm like, not scared to wear Indian clothes when I'm outside. Because I was born there, and I like to rep the culture. But I also know my place. It's not my place to be in, you know, places where Indian folks are leading and organizing. And that that's when I take a step back and make sure I'm an ally and a meaningful ally. Yeah, so definitely helps when you ask those questions and do like a little bit of humor here and there. Just understanding yourself.

Carly So what what's a kindness you would say to a young self?

Aisha Just to keep it short and sweet is that you are enough as you are.

Tony Okay. What I would say to my younger self, is something that a friend that I love once told me - is that this will feel, it will make old wounds feel loved and lovable again, and it's just that idea of like, knowing that, I think, you know, being my younger self, figuring out my queerness and what it means to be racialized. I think there were a lot of things that I was taught not to love about myself, and that I carried with me and that carried a lot of pain. But knowing that actually, you'll know what love is when you, when it's either that person, that place or a thing makes you feel like all those things that you can love about yourself are in fact lovable. And I think that is something that is very healing and powerful. Just knowing that, yeah, love is being able to know that all the parts that you were taught, weren't lovable are in fact lovable. So yeah.

Ruvimbo I think I would tell my younger self You are sunshine. And you are, something my best friend said to me, and I had to look at it, You're graceful and spicy. You can exist together.

Aisha I love it.

Nermeen I think mine that I would tell my younger self would be, what's meant for you will never miss you and what's not meant for you, and no matter how hard you try to hold on to it or grab onto it, is never going to be yours. And I think that that like applies for me personally to like a lot of relationships. Places that I've lived or wanted to stay, just changes that have happened and like economic, like making peace with the changes would have I think saved me a lot of heartache.

Chemi Identity is fluid. I there's two parts to it, one that you form, the one that others will label you as. But you are what you make out of it.

Gen I'll just say that the end is not, well the end is the beginning. That's what I'll say to my younger self. Because I had this whole philosophy wrong because I thought the end isjust, you know, the end, but apparently, it opens other opportunities. I just have to be the one to grab them and actually get back up. Cuz there's no definitive ends. But if you don't work on them, then yeah, goodbye. Like, I mean, I'm not saying people won't help but you need to let them help you. Instead of closing it off and just yeah being alone. So the end is just the beginning.

Chemi And you are up. You’re here today. And the other thing I wanted to say was to you (Ruvimbo). You can do your PhD. Please like why would you ever question? You’re a smart Black like spicy individual. You just said that earlier. And if you feel like that space isn’t in there, I know that there are those spaces that are there specifically for, you know, strong black women that are out there. Who are like in my spaces that would love to, like, connect with you to just be like, you go mama. Like you do what you gotta do, like - and you are there, right? There's - you'd be surprised how many people in this world outside of this space don't actually question themselves as much as we do. Right. And many of the filters and questions that we have for ourselves is we think it's just us in our bubble, but it's not. It's very systemic. And it comes from this sort of world that we live in, right. So that's why I like, I really appreciate the space and thank you all for you know, sharing the space with me.

Ruvimbo Thank you for the encouragement and the wonderful discussion.

Gen Thanks for this platform.

Aisha Thanks so much. This was really lovely

Saba Thank you to Aisha, Chemi and Gen for sharing their time and insights with us. And thanks to Tony, Nermeen and Ruvimbo for creating the safe space for this meaningful conversation. And special thanks to Carly Stasko, Braeden Doane, and Day Milman for their help in producing today's episode. These conversations were recorded as part of the Peer Wisdom Talking Walls exhibit. The West Meeting Room is a production of Hart House Stories. Our music was produced by Dan Driscoll. To find out more about our team and the Talking Walls exhibit, please visit harthouse.ca and be sure to follow us on Instagram @harthousestories. I'm Saba-Sadat signing off as your host for our first broadcast of the West Meeting Room. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.

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The West Meeting Room - Everyone is an Artist: A Conversation with Adeyemi Adegbesan Transcript

SPEAKERS Jessica Rayne, Zoe Dille, Adeyemi Adegbesan (AKA Yung Yemi)

Jessica Rayne Hello! And welcome to The West Meeting Room. We are broadcasting from Hart House and you're listening to CiUT 89.5 FM. And we're grateful to be taking up space on Dish With One Spoon Territory. I'm Jessica Rayne, Program Associate at Hart House and I'll be your host for today's show, along with my colleague Zoe Dille. Today we'll be discussing art, community and mentorship with Yung Yemi, Toronto-based photographic artist whose practice aims to examine the intersectionality of Black identity. Yung Yemi uses his art as a way of weaving together his connection with his community. He brings us into his creative process where he remixes and samples history with reimagining of the future. We are delighted to have Yung Yemi join us in conversation and take a closer look at his art and the work he's been doing with community. We are also excited to have him engaged in the Hart House Black Futures and Youth Access Programming. If you have not seen Yung Yemi’s work, be sure to follow him @yung.yemi on social media.

Jessica Rayne So you know, we're so happy to have you Yemi be a part of this. You know, we've been talking since last year around what we can do together. So I'm glad that we get this chance to speak with you. So just to start off, it would be great just like introducing yourself to the world or the listeners that would be listening to this. Like what do you do? How do you describe what you do? Who you are?

Adeyemi Adegbesan Well, first of all, I appreciate you guys having me on. It's great to be here with you guys today. So for the listeners, my name is Adeyemi Adegbesan. I'm a Toronto-based visual artist. I guess the main theme of my work is Afrofuturism and, and Pan Africanism. And I work in a number of different disciplines. I work with photography, illustration, and I'm getting a little bit into sort of mural making and some sculptural stuff as well. And I guess my background, artistically, I guess, is in photography. I spent a number of years as a commercial photographer before I started sort of going down that path. And before that, I was a youth outreach worker. So it's been, it's been an interesting journey in my adult life. But I'm very, very happy to be here and very, very honored that I get the opportunity to do this and make a living doing what I love.

Zoe Dille So you, you mentioned a whole lot of things there. But funny enough, I'm listening to you, and I'm like, they all kind of connect in a way, right?

Adeyemi Adegbesan So yeah, there's definitely a common thread of commonality between where I've been and where I'm at now. It's definitely, it hasn't been like, you know, a traditional path by any means. But um, it's, from my perspective, it's just felt like a pursuit. Like, I've just felt like I've been sort of, sort of chasing a vision for a long time. And I, like again, I just like, I just have a lot of gratitude in this moment, because I feel like I'm a lot closer to it now than I ever have been in the past. But yeah, when I, when I look at all the steps that it took to get here like it, it does make sense, you know. Even though I'm sure like, you know, from another perspective, it might seem like sort of like a random hodgepodge of different endeavors like, it makes sense once it, once it gets broken down.

Zoe Dille For sure. I mean, I will just say about tradition, I think it's highly overrated. S that’s ok that you did your own path. So we are, we are still in the official decade of African peoples. And you mentioned Afrofuturism and I wonder, I mean, there are a lot of different takes on it. But from your perspective, what does that mean and how do you describe it and in what ways does that kind of help to inform your art work?

Adeyemi Adegbesan Well, um, yeah. There are a lot of different takes on it, I think. I think like in, in the early 90s, there was like sort of a definition that got popularized, which is basically like this - it was, it was sort of simplistic. It was like traditional sci fi sort of from like a white Eurocentric perspective, but just appropriated by Black people. And it like, it, I guess that makes sense. But it's like, it's sort of, it's very simplistic. But I think like, over the last couple of decades that definition has become a lot more nuanced. And like, you know, here in 2020, the working definition that I'm working from is basically like, it's a fantasy sort of realm, but it's based on African, African and Black spirituality, and sort of, I guess like a reverence for the ancestors’ ancestral knowledge. But yeah, it's positioned in this sort of fantastical, futuristic realm. And, like, the value of that is that it's, it's just a really free creative space. Um, I think like, a lot of Black art gets, like, especially once it gets into the institutions, and you know, the high art galleries, it gets, at times, it gets, like, hyper literalized. And that, and that's cool because it imparts a lot of knowledge of, you know, African culture. And that's an amazing, important thing. But the flip side of it is that it can become somewhat restrictive. In terms of like, the, I guess, just the imaginary, the creative aspect of, you know, of art that I think a lot of people, a lot of just, you know, common people really appreciate. And Afrofuturism kind of like provides a platform for that type of art, that type of creativity that doesn't have necessarily a textbook definition. It doesn't have like a - it doesn't need to have like a super specific historical connection or historic context. It can, it can really just be a place of pure expression, much of the way that hip hop was like, in the late 70’s, and early 80’s. It was just kind of like a breath of fresh air. Where in a culture where people have become heavily jaded towards, you know, modern music and pop cultural music, it was just like this new voice that was just like raw expression. And I think that's kind of like what Afrofuturism as a genre is offering right now in terms of art creation.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Yeah, I mean, you mentioned a lot there. But two things that stuck out to me is like, just this sense of possibility that you have when you think about Afrofuturism, right. And that is the kind of fantasy part, but then it's not all just like something that's out of this world that's totally unattainable, because it is entrenched in this ancestral knowledge and in this self-knowledge of African peoples. And so I think, and we'll talk about this a little bit later on, but I think this is something that is like so needed at this moment, you know, for us to think about all the possibilities and all the strength and all the power and and knowledge that African peoples and African civilizations hold for us at this really kind of critical time. But I will circle back to that in a bit. Jessica?

Jessica Rayne Yeah. No, I just wanted to say, like, what you're saying Yemi is very important, I think because when we think about art as expression and a lot of the expression of our people could be sometimes, you know what I mean, a lot of community trauma, right? So a lot of questions through art sometimes are heavier or you know, kind of reflecting on that trauma and pain, often. But this - being able to experience this, and I know there's other artists out there as well that do this, but I mean, it's just Yeah, a fresh breath of air. It's inspiring. It's, it's unique. It's also trenched in kind of just your own identity, right? Like, there's something that it does when you watch, when you actually experience it, or you see your artwork around your African ancestry, right? So I think yeah, this type of art is definitely very important. Even people who are not so into, you know, the, I won't even say, futurism ideas, right. But what that, yeah - So, um, I wanted, Yeah, there's a few things there that I want to circle back on. So I guess, right now, I want to take it back to - you talk a little bit about your journey and how it wasn't really, you know, the straight and narrow path to becoming an artist doing what you're doing now. But I want to learn a little more about that. So what is your story? So take us back into like the time that you - what sparked you, your passion for the arts? And then what was the journey like actually becoming an artist? Because I know, for a lot of artists, even though they are doing their craft, or doing the work, they may not call themselves an artist until a particular moment in time. So just understanding what that's been like for you, and how you've defined yourself as an artist and when that took place would be great.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Sure. Yeah, that's a - and I totally get that. I think, like, I think everybody really is an artist. But I guess, not everyone is an artist for their profession. And like, not everyone makes a living at it. So that's how I defined it for my, I guess, or just the sort of definition that I made for myself. Like that my goal was to make a living off of my art. So that's, I've always felt like I was an artist, but like, my, one of the things that drove me the most was to be able to make a living off of that art. And that's, you know, that's definitely tricky. Like, my pathway, there was, um, you know, it started - like, my earliest memories are just, you know, sitting in my living room or sitting in my bedroom drawing. Like my mom was a nurse. Like, I grew up with a single parent mother. She was a registered nurse. She worked nights most of the time. So I would be at a babysitter all night. And then I’d come home in the day. She was sleeping and I had to occupy myself. We didn't, we couldn't afford a television. So I - like pen, pencils, and paper was like my go to way of entertaining myself. So like, that's literally like my earliest childhood memories. I drew and painted like a lot all through elementary school up until high school. I took a little break in high school. I got really into sports and like being an artist, like drawing and stuff, like it really wasn't cool. So I took a couple years off from that. But um, you know, like in my late teenage years, I sort of got back into it. I started a little clothing line with a friend of mine. And, you know, we would put designs on T-shirts and hoodies and stuff like that. And then from there, I got into sort of like, graphic design, web design stuff. I started messing around with like video editing. And it was just like one thing after another. Like I tried tattooing for a little while. And like I didn't, I didn't even get into photography until about the age of like, around 28,29 is when I really started taking photography seriously. And I do, like I honestly think that if photography didn't work out for me, like I probably would have just been like, okay, like, this art thing really is not meant to be and I just have to find another path. But, you know, again, like I just feel so fortunate that like the photography thing like - I guess it was just a lot of things clicked once I started trying to look at the world through a camera lens. Like a lot of things just made sense. A lot of the learning I had done in the past for other artistic disciplines, I was able to apply it, apply that learning, that knowledge much more effectively through photography for whatever reason. And that it just opened up for me and that was the beginning of me being able to support myself with my art. And like once I got to that stage, It just allowed me to put all my time and effort and energy into what I was doing. I didn't have to, like moonlight or you know, do it in the evenings or weekends anymore. I could just like do it all day every day. And that, I guess that was sort of like a turning point. Like, my sort of life as an artist is like, centered around continued learning. That always, I always want to be learning, I always want to be picking up a new skill or a new, you know, just like putting time and effort to developing something new. So that's kind of how I got from photography to the place I'm at now is just by experimenting on a consistent basis and just trying to add new things into the mix all the time. Um, but yeah, that’s the pathway in a nutshell, I guess. Like I don't know, I don't really know how else to put it. But yeah, it's, uh, it's been like a really interesting path. Like, I don't have any, I don't have any art, schooling. I never went to art school or anything like that. But it's just a lot of tutorials and a lot of asking questions and a lot of trial and error. And it worked out. I had a couple of mentors, especially with photography. One, off the top, was a gentleman named Taha Muharuma and he's a really dope photographer from Toronto. His Instagram is @tahaphoto. He's just like a really dope street photographer. And he reached out to me, like, out of the clear blue, like, really early on, when I was starting photography. He just saw me on Instagram and just reached out and said, like,”hey, do you wanna go out and take some photos one day?” and I met up with him. And he taught me like, a lot of stuff about photography, you know, just really informally. But it had a huge impact on my development. And another person I definitely have to shout out is Jimmy Chiale. He's like a, he's an abstract painter. He's done, like, his work is all over the city, it’s very, very noticeable. And he, like, he's been a friend of mine for a long time, as well. And just like, he just has this raw creative energy, probably like the purest artist that I've ever been around. Like, it just, it just really flows out of him. And he just always encouraged me to pursue it. Like he, um, I wouldn't call him a mentor from a technical standpoint, because what we do is just like way way different from each other. But from an ideological perspective, like, he was definitely a mentor to me, just in terms of like, just do it till you figure it out. And like his story is amazing, too. You know, he immigrated here from Paris when he was like, you know, in his early teenage years. He was homeless for a little while and he went from selling his drawings and paintings at the corner of like Queen and Bathurst, you know, to having his own gallery space in Toronto a few years ago. It's just been like, an amazing journey for him as well. And, yeah, he's just always, like, throughout the course of our friendship, he's just always been really encouraging and supportive.

Zoe Dille It's so inspirational, like, just to hear a lot of the things that you're saying, just to pick up on mentors - I mean, something we were, Jessica and I and others on our team were kind of just thinking about a bit - we were tasked with doing these introduction videos for, you know, some new students we were going to be working with, and we had some prompt questions, and one of them was around, like, “Who's your mentor? Or what's the importance of being a mentor?” And, you know, it just made me think a bit about all the people along the path of my life so far who have been important to me. So many of which don't even know they were a mentor to me, you know, or maybe were not the traditional, you know, “I'm going to teach you this craft, or I'm going to job shadow you,” it's just like, wow, I really aspire to have the values of this person or just kind of carry myself the way that this person does. So, super important. But, you know, so, first of all, I’m so not an artist. I'm still on the stick people. That's about where I began and ended my artistic - I'm creative in a thought kind of way, in a writing kind of way, but not anything I do with my hands or whatever. So to be self-taught, I always, you know, have a lot of respect for people who are able to, you know, have that as something that they just sort of pick up, as you mentioned. And then just thinking about you not having a TV, I also grew up pretty much without a TV, just because my parents were really stingy and they didn't believe in TV. Which I thank them for now because I got us all into music and just being outside and all of that, but to think about you, as a child being in the single parent home and almost you know what they call like a latchkey kid because your mom, as you said was working and you had like babysitters, etc… To being where you are now, where your work is really public, where you had this little - Jessica was gonna talk to you a little bit about the show she saw at Harbourfront that she did, but also your latest commission with the Raptors. Like, talk a little bit about kind of, you know, do you sit back at all and say like, wow. You know, do you have like a “pinch me” moment? You know, this latest thing, I saw your T shirt that you did for the Raptors and I was like, where do I get one of those? Which I'll still hit you up about later because I want one. But like how did that all sort of unfold? And you know, how do you feel about your work and being kind of connected to sports at this really pivotal moment with so much stuff that’s going on? And you know, Raptors I think are at the forefront of what's going on with NBA and social justice movement.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Yeah, honestly, like, again, um, I mean, this will become a theme throughout this conversation, I guess. But it's mostly, it's just gratitude. Like, I don't feel like a lot of like a direct ownership over my work. I feel like it's more of a process of channeling. So I'm just, I'm grateful when I get, when I get that inspiration and I'm grateful when it connects with people. I'm grateful when it resonates with people and I'm grateful when it finds its way into opportunities. Like the thing with the Raptors, you know, I'm, I, you know, obviously like growing up being super into basketball, I had like, I had the posters all over my wall. I had a big Damon Stoudamire poster on my wall. I had a big Vince Carter poster on my wall. So to go from that to, you know, to designing shirts specifically for the Raptors to where, you know, as you said, it like it is a super pivotal moment, you know, where they're not only athletes, but they're also embracing their activism and, you know, fighting for social justice. It's an incredible honor. And I'm so grateful to be here. But it's also, it's something that I don't like, I don't really think of it as my thing, as like I, you know, I have ownership over this action or this moment. It’s more just like I just happen to be like a conduit. I'm sort of in the right place at the right time to just channel some of these ideas and some of this energy and bring it over to this, this other space, you know. Um, so that's kind of, that's kind of how I look at it. And when I look at my life from that perspective, I just think of it as a very fluid experience. I'm not, I'm not super attached. Like I was 1,000% I was the definition of a latchkey kid, you know. I literally had a key on a string that I’d wear around my neck. But I like I don't think of it as you know, as this like, personal accomplishment really, like I don't. I just don't choose to view it that way. It's just, it's just more of a fluid experience. And I've had, like, I've had an amazing range of experiences throughout my life. I've been very, you know, growing up in a very low income family, like I've, you know, been to the food bank. I've, you know, had clothing donated to me. I've had that experience. And I, you know, I've been a youth worker. I've been in, you know, all kinds of communities working with young people across the city. And I've been in those experiences and I've experienced loss and I've experienced gain. And, you know, in the last couple years, I've had the great fortune, even to, you know, to get out of Canada and do some traveling. You know, I've been to Europe, I've been to Asia and just experiencing other cultures. And it's all just, you know, part of like one big fluid sort of existence, and I just try to focus on the gratitude of it, you know,

Zoe Dille Mm hmm. Gratitude is super important and just a way of life. And I think something that people are somewhat waking up to, and since COVID, right. So hopefully, it will continue. But, yeah, I mean, I think it's, again, you know, you reference the posters that you had and being into basketball, and then being able to do this. I mean, it must be pretty amazing. I know. I don't know, Mark, Mark Stoddart that well, but I know he's also an artist. We did a little work with him a few years ago on an event. So it was, just it was really cool to see that both of you guys, you know, were sort of tapped to - do you feel like it was your work? Was that like more of a personal connection? Were they just drawn to your work? Was there a process of submissions for that? How did, how did that unfold?

Adeyemi Adegbesan Well, yeah, like, I mean, I had a previously existing relationship with the team. Like I've been doing a lot of creative work for MLSE as a whole. Since say 2016 or 2017, I've been part of campaigns for like TFC, the Raptors, the Leafs, you know, even like I designed some of the season tickets for the Raptors last year. So like a lot of, a lot of different stuff like that. So they definitely were aware of who I was and what my style of work was. So I think it was just like, sort of like a natural connection when they, when this opportunity came up, and they started looking for people. And then, you mentioned Mark Stoddart. So I was able to bring Mark Stoddart in to work on this, on this project with me, and like, he's just, he's just an amazing artists. Like he's been, in terms of the Black community here in Toronto, like, he's, he's been a consistent presence, and a creative force in that scene, you know, since like it basically since like, the late 80s, you know, and, and also touching back on the concept of being a mentor, like, he's been a mentor to so many to so many young black artists coming up in Toronto over the past, you know, over the past 30 years, you know, so it was, it was amazing to be able to work with him on this project, because he's like, he's woven into the fabric of, of the black creative community here in Toronto. And it's just, you know, it's an honor to be able to work with him on it.

Jessica Rayne You know, you mentioned your community work and engaging youth and you work community work, outreach worker, prior to getting your out art out there and making a living off of your art. So if you can talk a bit about that, like, tell us a bit about the work that you did what you do in the community, in the past, but also how you're doing it now on your approach to working with you, and what's the importance of art and creating art for youth? And I don't know if that's, that is how you were engaging with youth prior. But yeah, if you can just share some of that with us.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Um, yeah, absolutely. So like, my educational background is actually in social work. I have a BSW from Ryerson. And that kind of led me into, like, you know - in school, my focus was always on working with youth. Like in a social work program, you're kind of, you're encouraged to sort of pick, like a demographic to, to center your learning around. So I just, I just gravitated towards youth, I guess. I guess, because, you know, when I started at school, like I technically was still a youth, you know, so I don't know but for whatever reason, it just made sense to me, and I just kind of, like, I kept going with that. It started from working, just like summer camps and stuff like that. And transitioned to working after-school programs. And then into the youth outreach work. And yeah, like, my main methods for engaging with youth were always either art or basketball. Like, those are the things that I knew and that I could be sort of like openly passionate about. And that was just like, that was just a huge thing. Throughout my experience, you know, being a youth worker was just to be able to be authentic with the youth that I was working with. Because that's one thing that I learned very, very quickly is that the youth that you're working with will know immediately if you're not being real with them, if you're not being authentic with them. It's like, they just have like built in, a built in like radar, sonar, whatever, that just, like, tells them right away. So I, you know, I could, like, show them something, like, you know, create, like an art program with them or something like that. And like, they could see how into it I was and how like open I could be about it and vulnerable I could be about it. And that would I guess allow them to connect to me. And that was, that was always like a main drawing point. And yeah, like the work - like a lot of the time it was just like general outreach work, like just trying to trying to develop programming that would bring youth into the centers to develop, like they have drop-in spaces that could function as you know, just a place to hang out, but also some programming that could impart life skills and you know, just help connect them to other resources that would help in their own personal developments. So, you know, sometimes that was - it was a lot of art, it was a lot of basketball. Sometimes it was cooking. Sometimes it was like trying to bring a speaker in from youth employment services to speak about financial literacy or stuff like that. And the last couple of years of youth work that I did, I transitioned into working with newcomer youth. So I was working with Access Alliance for a little while. And that was, that was really, it was a little bit of a different experience. It was really eye opening because working with youth that were, a lot of them were like, newly landed. Many of them were refugee claimants and so forth. So I got introduced to this whole other side of things, you know, seeing like youth coming into the center, and they've only been in Canada for like, two weeks or something like that. I actually, you know, I witnessed some youth getting deported. Like the pain of like, you know, kids coming into center, and like their friend is gone on. It's a Tuesday and all of a sudden their friend is gone. It's like, what happened? And like, Oh, yeah, people came to their house last night and put them on a plane, and they're like, they're back in, you know, they're back in Iran, or back in Syria or something like that. And so that, that really gave me a new sort of perspective on life and how much value there is and how much privilege there is in, you know, for me to be here, to be a Canadian citizen and have this opportunity. So yeah, it's just, it's again, it just speaks to the range of experiences. It's, it was really a very eye opening and very humbling experience.

Zoe Dille We were just chatting about gratitude before. And just based on what you've just said and everything you just said just now, as well as when you were talking, referencing sort of having to be authentic with youth, and how they can kind of sniff that out in a second when you’re not. But I would add that you know, empathy, having a lot of empathy, right, in your work as a social worker, and just as a human being. Like gratitude and empathy, they're good markers to steer you in being a good human being, right.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Absolutely, absolutely.

Zoe Dille So just I wanted to ask you, actually, because earlier you mentioned about hip-hop being kind of like this liberating and very free form, and just kind of full of possibility when it was initially coming up in the 70s. And kind of linking that to Afrofuturism, how we think about Afrofuturism. And specifically with the Afro, the way that you kind of remade various hip hop women like your Lauryn Hills and your Erykah Badus and all of that in your artwork. I wonder if you could just speak about what made you - I mean I love those two - but what made you choose like those particular figures that you worked with in your artwork? And you know, what is it about those women that kind of made you create the work that you did?

Adeyemi Adegbesan In a word, I feel like they're liberators, you know. I think music has been a huge influence on my whole life. It's been a source of inspiration. It's been a source of education. And when I do work around these musicians, I just try to honor people that have really had a profound personal impact on me. And through their own artistic creations, you know like Lauryn Hill, Erykah Badu. Absolutely. I've done Fela Kuti as well, and a few others. And they're always just like people that I feel embody the same values, I guess, that I'm trying to convey through my work. So it's just trying to, like, sort of put those two things together. But yeah, like they, like those people have all been liberators. And I feel like the way that they live their life has been very unconventional, but just so profound at the same time, that it's just opened up a lot of space for other artists to come up in the footprints that they've created, you know. And that just means so much to me. So it's just like, it's just sort of like a way of honoring that, you know.

Zoe Dille I mean, listen, those women are fierce. If you throw on Lauryn Hill's Miseducation of Lauryn Hill -

Jessica Rayne Wooo! My fave! That was my first CD growing up. That was my first, I got a boombox, a CD player - I can't remember if it was my birthday or Christmas, but that's the CD that came with it and it was unbelievable

Zoe Dille Maaan, listen. I rinsed that CD. And Erykah Badu Baduizm

Adeyemi Adegbesan A hundred percent.

Zoe Dille Yeah. I mean, those women are so fierce. And so I was just gonna say like, if you throw on any of those ladies’ stuff today, you're like, Wow, it is totally on point. It sounds like it came out today. It still hits you in the gut, and you know, you're always gonna remember it.

Adeyemi Adegbesan A hundred percent. Yeah, it's really, it's like, it's timeless. Like, in the sense that it's a, it was, you know, obviously, it had a huge impact when it came out. But like you just said, like, when you throw it on it, you know, 20, 25 years later, it's still - Yeah, it has that same impact. And it's, it's wild to be able to imagine creating something like that as an artist. So, yeah.

Zoe Dille Definitely. I mean, when Verses, I don't know if you watch Verses at all, but when it first started, and they had Erykah Badu

Adeyemi Adegbesan And Jill Scott

Zoe Dille And Jill Scott, yes! I thought I’d died and gone to heaven.

Adeyemi Adegbesan That was, that was definitely a moment. That was so incredible.

Zoe Dille For sure. For sure.

Jessica Rayne I wanted to ask a question around something you mentioned earlier in the conversation about like, us being like, everyone is an artist. And if you can elaborate on that definition. You said that's the definition you kind of work with. That everyone is an artist, but some people decide to make a craft out of their art. Can you share that? Like, what's your philosophy, more about that philosophy?

Adeyemi Adegbesan Well, like yeah. A hundred percent. I feel like everyone's an artist in the sense that like it, like having this innate creative ability is part of human existence. You know, it's part of, it's part of what makes a human, a human, I think. And I think everyone has that. Like, if you watch children play, like, most children have no problem, you know, if you give them some crayons and paper. Like, they'll do something with it, you know, before they're even aware of like what's good and what's not good, or whatever, like, evaluating it from that perspective. Like they can just innately produce something with those tools, you know, so I feel like everyone's an artist, on various levels. Like, we all have different things that we like to express, you know. Like, some people are musically inclined. Some people like to dance. Some people like to write. Some people like to draw. It really doesn't matter. I feel like gardening is an art form, you know. Like, it really doesn't matter. It's just, it's just how we express ourselves. Um, but yeah, like, there's a, I guess, a group of people that say, “hey, I want to take this to the next level, I want to do this all the time. And I want to generate the income that I need to live from doing this activity.” And that's just like, that for me was the sort of the challenge or the way I put it in my own head. It's nothing like, it's not to say that one person's art is more valuable, or more important. It's just like, I guess, taking on the added pressure and the added responsibility of figuring out how to make this as a living. And to be quite honest with you, like, I think for a lot of artists, a lot of young artists really focus on the craft and on the creative process. And rightfully so. Like, I think they, I think that should be the main focus, but I'll be honest with you. Like, I think the transition that takes you from, from that craft into a profession, a lot of times that transition doesn't happen because of skill level or because of creative output. A lot of times that happens because of just like, business acumen and work ethic and like really boring stuff that's, like, not fun to talk about. But like, that's one thing that I always try to impart on young artists when I'm talking to them or when I'm in a mentorship position. It's like, there's a lot of artists out there that make a living off of stuff that doesn't require a lot of talent, like flatly put. I'm not trying to shade anybody, but they have the, they've put in place the other aspects that you need to put in place to like make a business out of it, you know. And that requires as much attention, in some cases more attention than the actual creative process. Like I think it's, for a lot of young artists, it's a fantasy to just like, you know, do what you do and then just have somebody sort of come out of the clouds and say, “Oh, you're ordained as the next whatever. And we're just going to pay you like $500,000 a year to like to do this for the rest of your life.” But that's like, that happens about as often as people win the lottery, you know, or probably less so. So most of the time, most of the artists that you see that are professional working artists, they just, they found something that they love doing. And then they said, “Okay, I'm going to build a business around this. And that, like, a lot of the time that they spend, a lot of their weeks are spent doing like non-artistic things. But they just, they're just committed and focused to do those things to support the opportunity to, you know, to put their artwork out to share with the world.

Zoe Dille I think that's one of the takeaways, as you said, about anybody who wants to, whether you want to be a musician, or you want to be, you know, an artist, creative artist, is that, you know, like, at the end of the day, like, it is a craft and you have to put your time in to work on that. And to do that, like, you would never go out on tours as a musician and you hadn't rehearsed. Or you hadn't created new work, or you didn't, you know, have something. And it's the same thing, like you have to be always creating kind of new works. But at the same time, like if that is your, the way you choose to live your life and you want to just, you know, make a living and survive in this world, then you also have to put some time in and get serious about the other sides of, you know, having a business, like making a business out of your art. So it's not always as easy as you know, as you've said, as a lot of people maybe think that it is or that these sort of stories of overnight success, whether in music or in art, are few and far between. And frankly, I'm not sure there's such a thing as overnight success. Yeah,

Adeyemi Adegbesan Yeah. Exactly.

Jessica Rayne I know. You find out like the person that you're like, “Oh, my gosh, how did they do that so quickly?” Well, 20 years ago… you know, it always starts way back.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Exactly.

Jessica Rayne So I know, we got to wrap up soon, because we're almost at time. I have a question that just came out on the fly. Like, I just need to ask it. But in terms of the work - you know, I went to your exhibit at Harbourfront. And just thinking of the process, specifically around how, I'm assuming there's a lot of research that goes into this too and that you've probably been through a journey of kind of understanding your identity and just creating, you know, a connection to the motherland, Africa, in terms of all of the like – when I look at an image that you've created, I see, you know, a lot of the artifacts and the hair and the meaning of, you know, the tribal symbols. And so, just understanding what has that part been like for you, because I'm making an assumption here, that you must have done a lot of research and just in understanding, I mean, you know, history.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, I, like I've spent most of my life like just trying to understand my heritage and trying to understand, I guess like, African diasporic heritage in a broader sense, you know. I think like, you know, growing up without, like, a direct connection to my African ancestry, because my father is Nigerian, but he wasn't present in my life. So I like, I really had to undertake that journey, you know, on myself. Like, my mother was always super supportive and always encouraged me to pursue that knowledge, but like, I had to kind of come about it for myself. So a lot of it is, has been a lot of, it has been reading and, you know, seeking out connections in my community and just developing it on my own. And then when it comes out, when it comes out in the artwork, it's just kind of like drawing off all these reference points that I've come across along that path. It's kind of just like different synapses firing and I just, I just kind of tried to weave them together into like a coherent sort of visual language that kind of encompasses all of the things that I've come across that have had meaning on my journey and in my personal learning. And I like I don't try to present it in a way where I'm trying to replace the function of a history textbook. Like I never create a piece and say, “okay, like, you're supposed to look at this piece and it represents exactly this and this and this” um, that's not really where I'm trying to come from with my work. It's more like, I just want people to have more of a visceral like emotional reaction to it. A sense of maybe, maybe a sense of pride or at least a sense of curiosity, where they want to dig a little bit deeper. Maybe they'll see a symbol in it that reminds them of something that they grew up with. Or maybe they'll just recognize it and be like, “Wow, I've seen that like three or four times now and I really, I need to find out what that is.” And then they'll look into it a little bit more on their own and just realize, Hey, this is what that means. You know, that's an adinkra symbol, for instance, or something like that. And that's kind of, that's kind of where I'm coming from, with the work. It's a process of re-mixing. My actual, like, technical process is a process of re-mixing. And also like, from an ideological perspective, it's re-mixing, it's sampling. It's very similar, I think, in a lot of ways to what hip-hop music is, in that sense. It's a lot of small fragments woven together. But I really want the entry point to just be like a visceral emotional reaction. Like the same way that a song comes on, and you just feel it. You're like, this is dope. You might not know that the first snare was sampled off of, you know, like this soul record from 1960 or whatever. You might not know that off the top. If it really means a lot to and you want to dig into it, and you start, you look up the producers, and you look up all the sample credits and blah, blah, blah. Like that's, that's what the superfans do. And it sparks like a journey of musical knowledge, right. But that same song can also work for a person that doesn't want to go that deep with it. They can just feel it on like an emotional level. Like you know, “this is my song.” And every time it comes on, it's just like a head nod thing. And it just plays in the background and it’s just like, Yo, this is dope. And I want to be able to connect with people on that level as well. Like, that's really important to me because I feel like in the communities that I grew up in, in the communities that have been a part of in my life, not everyone had the bandwidth. Like I've been around a lot of people in my life that survival is like at the forefront of their existence. Like that's a primary focus, you know. I've also been around people where survival is not a word that comes out of their mouth, it's not really part of the vocabulary as well you know. And so I know what that side of it looks like, but a lot of the people I connected with, especially growing up, like survival was at the forefront, you know. And if that's where you're coming from, you might not have the mental bandwidth all the time to go that deep with a piece of art or with a song that you like. But I still want people like that to have something to connect it to even if it's just like on an intuitive level you know.

Zoe Dille You've just made me think about the Lauryn Hill picture in like even more of a different way when you're just talking about a re-mixing and sampling and this kind of layering and all these kinds of contexts. And it's just made me, in my mind's eye I'm seeing it like almost all over again. So that was really an awesome way to put it.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Aww that’s dope. That’s dope.

Zoe Dille And actually I just went to look quickly at it because Jessica and I both have a copy of one of your prints. So I just went, Yeah, it's like, I don't, I don't know if there is a title?

Jessica Rayne There has to be a name for it. So you had it at your event. It's the person who is like doing a shot? And then there's a dove flying over? What’s it called?

Adeyemi Adegbesan Oh yeah. The full title is Let It Fly (Prayer for a Black Boy - Reprise). And it was based off like a earlier work. Like, that's actually a photograph. Like the guy in the shot, like that was part of the photographic stuff that I did for that show. So like, I actually, I created his costume. We went out. I think we shot that last October probably. And I had him, I had him just like go through the motions of taking a shot and I took that photograph. The dove was added digitally later on. But other than that, it's sort of unlike, for instance, the Lauryn Hill piece is like all illustrative and collage work. But that particular piece, like is mostly a photograph. But it was based on an earlier piece that I did that was more of like a collage, illustrative piece. Like the concept of shooting the dove like a basketball. Um, and, yeah, it just, it just kind of speaks to that experience I have, you know, a lot of, I just feel like a lot of young men put, a lot of young Black men put like a lot of hope into these very, like tenuous sort of career paths. You know like, whether it's basketball, or another sport, or music or whatever. It's like these things that when you break the numbers down, it's very unlikely. But at the same time these things, they give us hope. They give us something to sort of rally around. They give us, like if you're trying to become a professional basketball player and it doesn't end up working out, it might still get you into a school. It might still get you, you know, out of a bad neighborhood. It might still make you that one student that the teacher puts a little extra effort into. Um, I don't know, like I've just seen just in my personal experience, like I've just seen it do a lot of things for a lot of people even if the overall dream didn't work out. It still provided some hope and some positive energy that helped guide that person to a better place than where they were at. Yeah.

Jessica Rayne Well, it is very inspirational this piece and I think like, it speaks to me in terms of just like, always take your shot. Like that's what it says to me. Like always - don't ever not take your shot. Amazing. So we are like, a bit over time. So we did you want to ask a few wrap up questions. Basically, I

Adeyemi Adegbesan A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

Jessica Rayne Amazing. So we are a bit over time. Zoe did you want to ask a few wrap-up questions?

Zoe Dille I think the only one, what's next for you Yemi? And like where people who are interested in checking out your stuff, not just online, but like, where could they? I know you've got some street art and stuff. So what would you suggest? What’s the intro to Yung Yemi.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Unfortunately, I think like a lot of what I have planned right now is going to be online for the foreseeable future and just kind of like a result of everything that's going on with COVID. It's been like put on pause, like a lot of in person - you have physical gatherings and especially in the art world, like planning for those things - like a lot of things are moving on online as a response. Um, so in the immediate future, it's gonna be probably difficult to see my work in person other than like, I'm doing a mural right now at Artscape Launchpad. So that will be there in a physical space. But outside of that, probably the best way to experience my work will be online. But I am in the studio full time like creating. Like, I'll be creating a lot of new work this fall and then once things open up a little bit, I'm sure that I'll be able to connect some opportunities to, you know, to do some new exhibitions in a physical space.

Zoe Dille And so going back to my Raptors T-shirt, where am I getting one of those?

Adeyemi Adegbesan Okay so the unfortunate truth about that is like these were designed specifically for the players to wear. So there isn't a plan right now to make those available to the public. It was just really for the players to have something to wear in the bubble in Orlando and to express where they're at, to connect to the movement. So the short answer is they're just not available to the public. And that's very unfortunate. But like, there's an outside chance that maybe they might do like a run later on to raise money for a charity or something like that.

Zoe Dille Okay. All right. I guess I have to suck it up for now.

Jessica Rayne Well, yeah. This was great. Yemi, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. And we're looking forward to, you know, how we engage in the future at Hart House through the Black Futures program through the Hip Hop Education Program, the Youth Access Program. But for today, we are good. And this was a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Adeyemi Adegbesan Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Thank you guys so much for having me on.

Jessica Rayne Thank you to our guest, Yung Yemi. Thank you to my colleague, co-host Zoe Dille. Thank you Braeden and Day for helping produce the show. And most of all, thanks to you, our listeners. To find out more visit harthouse.ca or follow us @harthouseuoft. We're here every Saturday at 7am on CiUT 89.5 FM. And we post all of our episodes under Hart House Stories on SoundCloud. I'm Jessica Rayne signing off as your host for today. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

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