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lunarriviera · 1 month

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Big Dumb Hot Cop & Effete Possibly Sociopathic Genius Consultant: A Manifesto

So it has recently come to my attention that this, my archetypal pairing formulation, has broken containment, probably because I've been flinging these terms around like a deranged person wielding a blunt instrument. Therefore it behooves me to explain what the hell I mean by all these adjectives, and who are some classic and contemporary examples of the idiots under discussion—who are by the way extremely in love with one another whether they realize it or not. (Don't you say "bromance." Don't you dare SAY that word to me.) I will use blorbo from my shows to illustrate.

I first realized that I am in fact a Big Dumb Hot Cop whisperer thanks to Chinese police procedural 猎罪图鉴 | Under the Skin (2022). Right away, it's very important to note that Big Dumb Hot Cop is NOT in fact all that dumb. He's only less intelligent IN COMPARISON to his Effete Slightly Sociopathic Genius Consultant, who is, as already stated, a genius. Big Dumb Hot Cop is in fact ruthlessly good at his job. He's driven, he obsesses about cases, he can walk into a crime scene and pick up on the one thing everyone else has missed. There is no suspect he cannot intimidate upon investigation. And he's even better when he's working with (or against, depending on what stage they're at) the genius consultant. They need each other, whether they're fighting or collaborating. They can only clear cases together.

Here are, then, police captain Du Cheng and his genius consultant, sketch artist Shen Yi, eyeing each other significantly as some witness is, I think, lying his face off? Honestly I can't even remember what's happening because the important thing here is their nonverbal communication. This is crucial for this pairing. They can think circles around each other without saying a word. Love that for them.

Effete Possibly Sociopathic Genius Consultant has two levels of Possibly Sociopathic. Most maddeningly of all, he has secrets. Sometimes many secrets. So at first, Big Dumb Hot Cop is going to think he's the criminal, or in some way involved in the wrongdoing. The second level is that he'll find Genius Consultant just worryingly, disturbingly good at predicting criminal behavior. And he will continue to be suspicious of him for exactly one or at most two episodes, until he's then swept off his big dumb feet by the rapidity and correctness of Effete Genius's deductions. There's nothing Big Dumb Hot Cop loves more than solving cases. Well, maybe beer. He also loves beer. Once he sees that Effete Consultant is useful, he'll do a 180º and stop complaining to his chief of police, and instead start demanding that Effete Consultant be his forever. He'll start hanging out in his office. He'll literally drag him to crime scenes by the wrist.

(And did I mention Effete Consultant must be very pretty? Did I mention that? He is lovely. Long, thin fingers to steeple while he thinks. Delicate features. Haunted dark eyes. Never sleeps. Shocking self-neglect. You may see where I am going with this.)

Another important attribute of Big Dumb Hot Cop: he's big. Or anyway strong, or a gifted fighter. Let's face it, he has to be, because Genius Consultant is going to be reckless with his own personal safety to the point of stupidity (now who's dumb, huh?). For example, consider another Chinese procedural, S.C.I. 谜案集 | S.C.I. Mystery (2018). Captain Bai Yutong is sort of impossibly physically talented (former fighter pilot! national sandu champion! runs over moving cars and then shoots at them, like some kind of weird urban biathlon!) and, like all good Big Dumb Hot Cops, his entire life is thrown upside down because he now has to drop everything to protect his effete consultant, criminal psychologist Dr. Zhan Yao, who's so careless with himself that in any another drama he would probably be driving Bai Yutong to drink. Thanks to the danmei on which SCI Mystery is based, however, we can safely assume Bai Yutong is taking it out on Zhan Yao in blow jobs.

Note that Bai Yutong is the cook, even though he's the gong, and that he moves in with Zhao Yan to "protect" him from...something, I can't ever remember what, and then just sort of forgets to move out again. For the length of the entire series.

I would argue that 镇魂 | Guardian (2018) is a procedural, even if it also has ghosts, a talking cat, snake lady, eerie dark energy that gets flung around like paintball splatters, and a whole bunch of other supernatural stuff that was not approved of by Big Red (it's based on a danmei of the same title by Priest, a novel which has been pulled from circulation for censorship). Further confusing matters, Zhao Yunlan isn't particularly Big or Dumb, nor is he even really a Cop, technically; but I'm claiming him for this genre not least because of his Effete (drop-dead gorgeous) Possibly Sociopathic (Chief Zhao thinks he's a suspect for a good third of the story) and Definitely Genius, Later Gangpressed into being a Consultant, chock-full of secrets Professor Shen Wei.

Once they finally team up, though, they do this genre/pairing proud. Why, there's nothing they can't solve except how to stay alive. Look at them here enjoying some fine nonverbal communication: "Oh my god, you're just like me—you too will fling yourself directly into bodily harm in order to save a clueless civilian. Okay this could be inconvenient for both of us. Also wow for a genetics professor you're really fucking built, do you lift my bro." (Yes. Yes he does lift.)

A final example: the cruelly short-lived 光渊 | Justice in the Dark (2023), which like Guardian is based on a danmei by Priest, 默读 | Silent Reading. I got baited into watching the eight (8) existing episodes by seeing a cut of Captain Luo Wenzhou taking on like forty guys with a champagne bottle, a pair of curtains, an axe handle, and a birthday cake, like some kind of cultivator. He's so big and hot, and he's so very dumb. He's also a cop, and ACAB (which is sort of the plot of Silent Reading); and Fei Du is possibly using him for his own nefarious ends (cf. possibly sociopathic and secretive). But underneath all of Fei Du's "I am the abyss, fear me, rawr!" scary posturing, like a puffed-up kitten, he's just a very pretty tender-hearted effete genius, and you can watch Luo Wenzhou melting, and practically pinpoint the exact moment when his whole heart flies out of his eyes and he decides: Yeah, okay, that's it for me. That one. The annoying little traumatized fuerdai with some kind of a death wish that I do not understand. I'll be throwing myself in front of bullets for him and/or cooking him dinner for the foreseeable future, thanks.

Priest is gonna mess with this dynamic of gong/shou caregiving and safeguarding, because that's what she does; but the fundamental beats are still there. Look at these ninnyhammers, just this second figuring out they're actually kind people who belong to each other.

Here they are confronting a suspect together. (You will notice the large butcher knife wavering in the foreground.) Luo Wenzhou, highly trained, nonetheless cannot de-escalate the situation. It takes a pretty playboy in an arm sling to come wandering into the room, and then, using his superb personal knowledge of what it's like to be traumatized to the point of insanity, getting the suspect to disarm. I just love the way they look at each other, incredulous (Luo Wenzhou) and mock-fascinated (Fei Du). If I ever meet the person who directed this scene I'm going to need to kiss them on the mouth.

Once you accept the gospel of Big Dumb Hot Cop and Effete Possibly Sociopathic Genius Consultant into your media-based life, you'll find it has many applications, not all of which have to be procedurals. Consider: characters from the Daomu Biji franchise, possibly (Hei Xiazi is the biggest dumbest hottest not-a-cop I've ever met). Leverage, in a weird OT3 way. Assorted combinations of Avengers. Teen Wolf fic, absolutely. Various Stargate incarnations. Several other Priest danmei, not only procedurals. Definitely Mysterious Lotus Casebook. Et cetera. (You're on your own with MXTX, though.)

This has gotten long and there are still so many nuances and features and wrinkles and problems with the theory that should be ironed out, but it'll have to do for now. I'll simply close by saying: yes, there is also a classic example and you already know exactly who it is.

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thepersonnamedsam · 5 months

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she got this - op81

pairing: oscar piastri x academic!girlfriend

summary: oscar visits his girlfriends bachelor thesis defending

word count: 1.3k

face claim: phoebe bridgers

warnings: a swear word, some angst - mentions of a panic attack

note: this is for my baby @lissyontour, you got this, pls wish her good luck for today <3

oh and it’s my first oscar fic, hihi, enjoy it

and there is some of the bachelor thesis… i had to include some of it, thanks to chat gpt

masterlist / taglist

Fuck, was she nervous. Her head was spinning and her legs were jelly - no, scratch that - her legs were liquid.

Her eyes were trying to focus on something, just something that would help her back to reality. She knew she was somewhere else right now, somewhere where she shouldn’t be.

Why wasn’t Oscar with her? Why was she alone? This was not how she planned it!

Her heart was beating, she felt it nearly pop out of her chest. It almost hurt. Oscar should’ve been here with her, but a last minute meeting with Zak just threw her plans overboard.

Her breath quickend and her hands searched for the only safe thing she could think of, her phone. Her fingers quickly glided over the screen and Oscars answer made her hold her breath for a second.

Standing in front of the auditorium, the heavy red doors made her uneasy. It’s gonna be time soon.

Oscar had to hold himself back not to text her that he was actually sitting in the front row and waiting for her to enter the room. He knew it was cruel. But he just had to do it.

He was so much more nervous than her. He watched her write that bachelor thesis for over six months now. At every race she was sitting in his drivers room with at least ten books and her laptop. Only just for the last five laps she came out of the room to watch him race.

He appreciated her coming, she could’ve just stayed at home and studied, but she always came with. Multitasking her way through her studies. And he was so proud of her. There was no way he would miss her final step of the way.

And he knew his cruelty was all worth it, as she stepped into the room and her eyes spotted his. Her whole face lit up and he could almost spot some tears of relief.

„What are you doing here?“, she mouthed. A small smile on her lips. „Supporting you“, he mouthed back, matching her smile.

„Welcome Ms y/l/n!“, her professor welcomed her. „I am exited to hear you defend your bachelor thesis about; How Greek Mythology influenced modern literature.“

She smiled at her favourite teacher and took out her thesis. She closed her eyes for a second, breathed in and out again. She was ready. Oscar knew she studied English literature and oh did that make her sexy.

But he had no idea of Greek Mythology or modern literature by any means. Yes, he read her thesis at least twice, but did his brain understand anything she meant? It did not. Being the smart one was all her job.

„Welcome Professor McAllister, dear colleagues, guests and friends. I hereby welcome you dearly to my defending of my bachelor thesis: How Greek Mythology influenced modern literature.“

Oscar listened intently and always smiled when she looked at him for reassurance. His heart was swelling with proudness. He soon had a girlfriend with a bachelor degree.

„In the vast tapestry of literary evolution, Greek mythology stands as an enduring thread, weaving its timeless narratives into the very fabric of modern literature. As contemporary authors navigate the labyrinth of inspiration, they find themselves entwined with the rich tapestry of gods, heroes, and mythical creatures that originated in ancient Greece.

The resurgence of interest in Greek mythology can be traced to its profound impact on archetypal storytelling. From the lofty heights of Mount Olympus to the depths of the Underworld, these tales resonate with universal themes that transcend temporal and cultural boundaries. Authors draw from the exploits of Zeus, the sagas of heroes like Achilles, and the tragedies of figures like Oedipus to explore complex facets of human nature. The gods' capriciousness mirrors the unpredictable forces that shape our destinies, while the struggles of mortals against divine intervention echo the perennial human quest for agency in the face of cosmic uncertainty.

Prominent literary figures, from James Joyce to J.K. Rowling, have paid homage to Greek mythology, infusing their works with echoes of ancient narratives. The hero's journey, a concept rooted in the mythic structure of heroes like Perseus and Hercules, serves as a narrative template for protagonists in contemporary novels. These echoes are not mere nostalgic nods; they represent a perennial dialogue between past and present, a dialogue in which timeless themes find new expression.

Moreover, the enduring allure of Greek mythology lies in its malleability. Authors wield the myths as allegorical tools to explore issues ranging from power dynamics and hubris to the nuances of morality. The Hydra of Lerna becomes a metaphor for societal challenges that sprout anew when seemingly eradicated, and the labyrinthine trials of Theseus mirror the complexities of modern ethical dilemmas.

In essence, the enduring influence of Greek mythology on modern literature is a testament to the universality of its themes and the perennial resonance of its characters. As authors continue to delve into the wellspring of ancient tales, they discover not relics of a bygone era, but rather a living reservoir of inspiration that fuels the imagination of generations, perpetuating the eternal dance between the ancient and the contemporary.“

Her voice angelic as it could be, drew in people who never even heard of the topic. You didn’t have to be interested in Greek Mythology to listen to her thesis, because she delivered her speech that even Oscar understood and left him wanting to know more about it.

My god was he proud. He was in awe, his beautiful girlfriend standing up there, speaking about her passion and delivering it in a way he never thought she could.

Even the look on Professor McAllister made him proud. She looked at his girlfriend with a proud smile, nodding along with her and reassuring her. She was gonna ace this.

Oscar was snapped out of it when the whole auditorium clapped. She was standing with the biggest smile on that stage. Oscar just had to get a picture of her. His new wallpaper.

„Thank you, Ms y/l/n. This was magnificent! We‘ll just discuss real quick and we‘ll be back with your grade. You can be proud of yourself, Ms y/l/n“, Professor McAllister told the young woman on stage.

And as soon as they left the room, she squealed and ran to Oscar. He opened his arms and let the girl spring into his embrace. „Hi“, he whispered. „Hi“, she whispered back. „I thought you weren’t coming?“

He laughed, a real deep belly laugh. „I had to surprise you!“ She hit his shoulder and said: „I hate you, but I’m glad you came.“

„You did so well, my love. I am so proud of you! We have to celebrate afterwards, anything you want.“

The time together was cut short, when the door opened again and the four professors walked in again. „Ms y/l/n, please, have a seat“, her professor said and pointed to the chair sat in front of the four.

She nervously walked over to them and smiled at them. „No need to be nervous, you did well, you can be proud of yourself.“

They talked stuff Oscar didn’t understand. But when he saw a big smile form on her face, he knew she received the best grade she could’ve. Proud, that’s the only word that came to Oscar’s mind.

„I love the boys“, she told Oscar. He smiled up at her and said: „I know you do, but only I can celebrate with you today.“ She giggled and would’ve almost kicked her feet, if it weren’t for the others in the room.

Professor McAllister handed y/n her diploma and told her they’d see each other at official ceremony. After that, Oscar and his girlfriend almost sprinted out of the auditorium.

oscarpiastri

liked by yninsta, landonorris and 82‘729 others

oscarpiastri how did we get from that to this?

view all 22‘219 comments

yninsta the first one is NOT me, idk where you got this from

user1 weren’t we all at that point during our studies?

user2 yes, yes we were

yninsta glad i wasn’t alone…

oscarpiastri so it was you

yninsta oop-

landonorris congrats, y/n! when we gonna get a lecture about greek mythology from you?

yninsta any day you want

landonorris now?

oscarpiastri no, now she’s busy with me

landonorris ewww, my eyes are scarred, don’t ever come back to the mclaren garage

oscarpiastri i didn’t mean it that way

yninsta he did

landonorris you’re just kids

user3 we love an academic wag

user4 so proud of you, y/n!

mclaren congratulations, y/n, next podium is for you 🍾

yninsta thank you, admin

yninsta thank you, baby

oscarpiastri i am so proud of you, darling

loganseargant i cannot believe i have a friend with a bachelors degree…

yninsta better believe it, american boy

user4 do u even know what a bachelors degree is..?

user5 american slander, we love it

alex_albon we are all proud, y/n

user6 we really are

yninsta thank you all so much, i love you guys so much

georgerussel63 oh no, she’s getting sentimental, let’s stop here guys

°°°

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#f1 x reader #formula 1 #f1 #oscar piastri x reader #oscar piastri #oscar piastri x female reader #lando norris #logan sargeant #alex albon #george russel #oscar piastri instagram au #yuki tsunoda

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absolutebl · 5 months

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Pit Babe - it's time for a Trash Watch!

I had to. Well, no I didn't, but COME ON. It's like Thailand is negging me. Let's burn rubber, shall we? Burn rubbers...?

The things I had been told going in about this show:

it's about car racing (this bores me)

it stars Pavel (my BL ult bias, he is my icon for a reason)

it started as an omegaverse y-novel but the A/B/O aspects would be stripped from the BL series

it's high heat

(There some chatter about whether point 3 was a mistranslation of something the author said, but don't bother me with trifles.)

Here's a definition of omegaverse:

Omegaverse, also known as A/B/O (alpha/beta/omega), is a subgenre of speculative erotic fiction, and originally a subgenre of erotic slash fan fiction. Its premise is that a dominance hierarchy exists in humans, which are divided into dominant "alphas", neutral "betas", and submissive "omegas".[1] This hierarchy determines how people interact with one another in romantic, erotic and sexual contexts.[2] (Wikipedia)

In my experience and opinion, omegaverse archetypes and tropes are often used to strip out female characters (and The Feminine) and as a tool to excuse extreme hyper-masculine behaviors without a critical feminist lens (leading to lazy characterization). Just as heat is an excuse to get nkd quickly, A/O/B is often an excuse for taboo and dubious consent actions and behaviors. Do I get why writers/readers enjoy it? Yes I do. Do I personally like it? Not particularly. (Although there are always exceptions.)

Putting all that aside, the above represents my foundational knowledge before Pit Babe started.

Oh and that the familiar BL faces appearing in this show were follows:

Pavel Naret (aka Pavel Phoom) from 2 Moons 2 & Coffee Melody - Pavel is a fluent English speaker, a bit of a drama monger, and a motorcycle rider/car-dude, this role suits him

Nut Supanut from Oxygen & Something in My Room - has an amazing voice, his somewhat wooden acting has improved steadily since Oxygen

Pon Thanapon - one of Star Hunter's stable first seen in the Gen Y series (where he stole the appeal of an intended pair), also v good in Make a Wish, I wish he'd get a lead role as he has a likable screen presence

Pop Pataraphol from La Cuisine - he's playing the Alpha rival and I'm not convinced he's suited to this role

Michael Kiettisak from Love Sick, Oxygen, Call it What You Want, Till the World Ends - playing the comic relief this time rather than his usual tortured stoic... huh

All the rest are either fresh faces or older experienced actors. Interesting mix. They must have some money behind this.

And now, get out your marshmallows! The dumpster is on fire! Let's start the roast.

Episode 1 - Platypus, Pickles, Pavel, & other Smoking Hot Problems

This first segment told with a 4 day retrospect, because I decided to do a trash watch only after @aliceisathome said I should.

My initial reaction:

the sheer audacity of Thailand being like "PitBabe is not omegaverse" and then serving "Alpha" to us on a platter in the first sex scene is

how dare

but also

what the actual fuck is going on? what world are we living in where a/b/o is LIVE ACTION ON OUR SCREENS?

we getting heat, knotting & mpreg next?

apparently this is my reality now

I'm not sure what weird quantum time stream I've jumped into but someone was all,

yes the whole world is hella screwed, but also...

Thailand has decided live action mm fanfic is gonna win it the culture wars

and I'm beginning to think they may be right

BL is now the platypus of the film industry

4 days later:

Considering how much chatter this caused there's a part of me that wondered if it was all intentional and a marketing ploy (to say it wasn't omegaverse when obviously it is). In which case... brilliant Machiavellian tactics, production.

But Thai studios are rarely this calculated in their promo. So I think it's all accidental. But it certainly caused a raucous few days on Tumblr.

On a completely different note, Babe's house looks like it started life as a particularly inventive Olive Garden. Or is that just me?

More random thoughts:

Pavel has had work done, why honey? You were the definition of perfect.

The smell thing is great, I love stuff to do with scent and necks. If omegaverse brings this to the table, fine. But...

Being all Alpha perfect butch manly man = I do not like Babe at all, I kinda want him to be brought down a peg. (Woo... pegging!) I never like narratives that glorify the captain of the football team (side eyes Cdrama CEO romances and Love O2O), Babe better have depth and damage (forget the pegging) of some kind or his behavior will get old FAST, faster than he drives (also, forget the pegging idea)

Nut is ideal in the Beta role. I mean, that's Way's character right? We all can see that. If it's not intentional, it's a miscast. I love how soft he is as as screen presence. He's great in this part.

None of the other characters are sticking out to me yet, but I'm prepared to love the side dishes in this, please make them swoon worthy!

I'm glad they didn't hold the Charlie = trickster reveal off, I like knowing he is a double agent up front.

Finally, with respect to an adequate trash watch, I'm in a pickle.

How am I going to drink for this show when there is so much else airing on Frigay? I can't keep track, if I'm drunk.

I need a strategy for this trash fire if the puns and snark are to spout forth! (HA Fourth!)

Controlled burn?

Anygay, see you all next week.

Episode 2 - Side Dish Addiction + Second Lead Syndrome are both infecting me at once

[FYI I gotta have my backup computer to watch this so that's why Imma sometimes be delayed getting the trash out to the curb.]

3 minutes! 3 minutes in and I needed to pause and wax snarkful. (Ouch, bet that hurts. Is waxing snark similar to a Brazilian but for BL? Is that why they all so hairless in The Sign?... I digress, where was I?)

Okay so the subber said Daddy but I don't think that word means what they think it means. Because Way said simply nong paa.

Usually they'll use the English word Daddy (pronounced Dah-deee) for, ya know, Actual Daddies (tm).

Wait wait:

Calling Daddy Actual

(My dumb sci-fi loving arse will see myself out the back before I start drawing Battlestar Galactica = Pit Babe connections. TOO FAR ABL. Too far.)

Look, I like the tension in this show. It's good to set up an unlikeable Alpha dog and then immediately turn him into an underdog, makes him a bit more likable. I still don't like Babe, but now at least I'm on his side.

Charlie = cute but v sus. Fortunately for him, Babe = cute but v thick.

Everyone calls Charlie Babe's dek. Yes sounds a bit like what you think but also means kid/child and SHOULD be translated as boy in this show. Why doesn't the subber get that? They a sub...ber after all. (I'll see myself out.)

Honestly, the script writers might know what they are doing with abo but our eng sub translator sadly does NOT. I'm so glad this is coming now in my BL watching life. When my ear and knowledge of Thai is so much better than it once was. Others much be SO CONFUSED.

Snicker. They just fucking with us, but it's fun to watch the mpeg speculation abound.

File this one under: Thailand's trouble with ESL plurals and also "you should have Pavel helping with these subs" sweethearts.

Production knows entirely what it's doing with this show and its omegaverse shizz (even if the subber doesn't) and I am very much enjoying the online carnage that results.

This dumpster fire continues off screen into the blogosphere and I continue to roast things over it.

Meanwhile, hi Pon! You so adorable! When you gonna lead out a BL for us?

Is Idol Factory stealing all of Star Hunter's talent? Are they the Red Racers of the BL world? These are the questions I ask myself as I watch this.

Is that AGE GAP I smell before me?

Is the 20 yr old college kid meant for the pit boss? Cause you all know I am a slut for age gaps.

Moment of a/b/o: Jeff's fear of touch/heightened personal space would be a plot marker for "baby doesn't want Alphas close cause he smells like an omega" but of course this show it not omegaverse. Not omegaverse at all.

nuh-uh

Linguistic corner!

Lung (sounds a bit like loo) is uncle(ish) it means basically a male relation older than phi. So Alan is the oldest in the crew.

Alan calls Jeff nu (which the subber translated as boy I would have gone with cutie or little one). Nu is a diminutive affectionate term that's technically gender neutral but is most often used by/on cute girls/women. Jeff did NOT like it. Then Alan sort of dodges through pronouns/particles settling on phi for I, ger for you, and ja for a particle. This is interesting because ger & ja kinda lower his age and status into a casual sphere. Not more intimate more equal to jeff... fascinating.

I love the new "Korean" red racer, he drinks my brand of soy milk. He is now my baby snake in the grass.

Get it? Snake.

He and Babe should end up together.

The fight wasn't bad, do both actors have kickbox training in their backgrounds?

Who am I kidding, I care only about Uncle Alan and Nu Jeff now. All others are irrelevant to me.

Also...

WHERE IS A BOY FOR WAY?!!! Or a Daddy. I do not care. (Methinks nether does he.)

I am now captain of the Way Appreciation Society. Let's all find a way... to get him some dick.

Also the BTS stingers are tons of fun. Looks like the set was a blast.

Finally, and I mean this kindly. Why isn't Noh Phouluang in this? He should have been cast as Winner. Bah. I'm biased.

But one should be with Noh.

Episode 3 - Side Dishes Delux

Gayest bridge n Thailand has made its obligatory appearance.

How much do I love uncle & nu? They are SO damn cute. Also nu flustered is the best kind of nu.

I could not care less about Babe and Charlie. Except I do love the smell thing.

Way will break my heart by getting his broken. He is right tho.

Tra la la. I feel like this is a bit like KP 2.0.

Charlie is a such a princess (and ace manipulator). Good thing Babe clearly likes being buttered up.

Babe's backstory was more interesting than I expected, I didn't think we would go so far into the paranormal side of a/b/o. I like it and I hope they lean into it quite a bit more. Make it part of the plot.

Unlike the kissing thing which seems to have been gotten over rather quickly.

I gotta say I'm enjoying the corporate sponsorship jockeying and tension more than I thought I would. I'm curious as to who Jef and Charlie are working for and what their motivation is. The plot itself is keeping me intrigued and that is rare for me with BL.

So no trash talk this ep, I was largely absorbed and entertained. I didn't event need booze. Shocking behavior on my part.

#giveWayaboy2023

Episode 4 - I (who never ship) am shipping the impossible

Here’s the thing. I just want this to be a better story than it is. Right now it’s kind of like a soap opera. I don’t hate lakorn, I really don't. To Sir With Love is a glorious chewing of the diamanté scenery (completed with death glitter). But...

If this is gonna be a soap opera it needs to lean into the messy side more than the tailored high concept side. Support characters and evil needs more screen time.

Instead, right now, I don’t know where I am with this show because it doesn't know where it wants to be. I’m kind of dangling in the middle of a dirty situation. It’s uncomfortable for me, and the show feels uncomfortable for the performers.

Also... I have questions.

Yes, of course I want to know what Charlie & Jeff are up to. Why can Jeff see the future?

But more importantly I NEED to know why Babe has a flying saucer bed?

That kind of lighting makes nobody look good, especially not at that angle. It’s very traumatic and I’m not wild about the shag rug either. I have concerns about Babe's taste. I guess is what I am saying.

On a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT note:

There’s absolutely no chemistry to justify this, but I have decided that I am going to personally advocate for, and ship, Way and the interloping not-really-Korean. They are both sort of own-moral-code types. I have tiny crush on Kim, and Nut is the prettiest, and Way is Best Boy so there it is, I would like them to hook up, please & thank you.

#giveWay2Kim2023

Arrow guy is cute, too. Will we get to see him bone?

Is he going to be another one of the adopted alpha super-kid pets?

What the hell, throw Arrow Boy a bone! All hot boys in BLs deserve bones.

Plot thickens.

Hah.

Thickens.

(I am an immature idiot.)

Episode 5 - wait wait way-t, can arrow boy have Way?

Look, BLabies, I didn’t get any screen caps this episode because frankly there wasn’t anything worth capturing.

I guess Charlie really does love Babe? Very dramatic if idiotic saving from the burning car. But Babe has gone to the broken Alpha place of extremely unlikeablability (frankly he was almost there at the start). If I were Charles B Spectacled I would be OUT by now.

Is that?

NO.

Don't get the plastic bowl.

No white towel sponge bath. Please kill this trope.

I mean, it's not as bad as singing, but that's because NOTHING is as bad as singing in a Thai BL.

AND the main boys are back together.

I don’t find their relationship or Babe’s lack of senses a particularly interesting aspect of the plot.

Unless, of course, Babe is pregnant and that's why he lost his Alpha sniffer.

BUT I do love the sides.

Jeff = the introvert precog who can’t/wont do people and Alan = the extrovert people person who WANTS but doesn’t understand him.

Were Jeff and Charlie ALSO raised by Evil Daddy MacEvilPants?

I liked the way Arrow CEO & Way looked at each other. Way, hon, give up on Babe (he sucks) and get thyself a billionaire bf with great aim and BDE.

On a completely different note, the best thing about this show is the blooper reel. That thing with the green smoothie going down his pants was hilarious!

In conclusion, this was a green smoothie down the pants episode. I was entertained, and it’s probably gonna be good for the plot in retrospect, but it was kind of squishy and unpleasant at the time.

Episode 6 - Are they actually listening to us now? Is Tumblr bugged?

This was a fun ep full of like actual racing and shizz.

Whatever.

Charlie is on the team now. All the teams, apparently.

Can we talk about Jeff and Alan?

The apology scene! Did you hear that Alan dropped to chan/ger? Eeeee!!! So cute. (He equalized their relationship in a soft way.)

Get it with that language play hottie. Next up: lengua play.

Please & thank you.

Meanwhile, as all of the Internet knows, they went fully in for omegaverse - no bars.

I have to say, one of the greatest typos (or whatever) in existence is enigma instead of omega.

That's where I personally would rank in the omegaverse.

Hello, my gender is... enigma.

Apparently it's a/b/o and sometimes e! Also sometimes switch-ee

Oh I'm very proud of myself with that one.

Funfunfun

Charlie. Babes. When a man asks to be thrown up against the wall. You throw him against that wall.

OMG is that arrow boy looking at Way in the bar?

3 seconds later.

Noooo.

Wait come back.

Noooooo.

That’s what I actually want to watch!

OMG. Who said nu was the first step to teelak?

I flipping love Alan.

Ah the boyfriend ep. Thank you, but I still don't trust Charlie.

Poor Way.

But nice crying jag, and I don’t say that often in Thai BL.

Now let him go, Way.

A boy with his arrows is waiting.

(source)

Note for the future: tumblr has a bug that stops allowing edits after a certain time/number, thus my full trash often occur in 2 segments as a result. Click on the "abl trash watches bl" tag for the full thing if you're reading this and later episodes are missing.

#pit babe the series #pit babe #thai bl #abl trash watches bl #Pavel Naret Promphaopun #pavel phoom #trash watch #2023 bl #currently airing bl #watch along #Nut Supanut #Pon Thanapon #พิษเบ๊บ

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richea · 1 month

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Inomata’s Design Notes & Memories - Destiny Cast

Some notes:

I’ve linked images of each thing she references below.

Unlike the first batch of Eternia characters I previously posted, these were in Japanese. And unlike the Destiny 2 ones I translated, she talks about her experiences with the characters in the game and not just her design processes!

The book in question is this one.

What I think about most when designing characters is their colors and the components to their look. The characters are displayed as such small sprites, so in order to be able to differentiate them from each other, I give each of them a specific color palette and unique accessories to each of their outfits.

Stahn’s thing was his scarf. I also made sure his shoulder pads, gloves, and boots looked huge.

Rutee is supposed to be a thief, so I made her look a bit like a ninja. I didn’t want her to look too girly, so I gave her shorts and exposed her navel. For colors I went with red and black, since that’s a distinctive palette. Whenever I’d do boss battles, she’d always be joyfully picking 2 gald off the ground instead of healing my very low HP characters (laughs). I thought about removing her from my party to prevent this, but then I’d feel bad, and it just made me think “this is all part of her plot” (laughs).

Philia is a priestess through and through. I went for white and green to give her an earthly feel (laughs). Her glasses and braids were a strong request from Namco. I came up with designs for her, but they didn’t have the glasses or braids, so they were repurposed for the priests in Straylize Temple. It was the basis for Philia’s design as well as Elraine’s in the sequel. Philia has her eye on Stahn, but he eats too much and he oversleeps. I feel like they’d work out better if Philia was more the assertive type herself (laughs).

Woodrow is an archetypical handsome man, so I didn’t have much to stress about when designing him. He’s a king, so I wished he had a stronger atmosphere behind him. I almost never used him when playing the game though (laughs). When you break into Dycroft, I thought, “it’d be really cool in a narrative sense to use him here, but he’s just so weak”. But you get special dialogue if you take him along, so I went “tsk” and brought him anyway. “Just stick to the backlines and don’t die” (laughs).

Leon’s really easy to draw, so again I didn’t have much to stress about when drawing him. He has a princely vibe to him, so I gave him white tights, but everyone was taken back by it! I thought, “is it that weird?” and ended up making them less tight fitting (laughs). He acts a bit snobbish, gets seasick easily and refuses to eat vegetables, so he really crosses off a lot on the “young master” list. He’s also really fun to use in battle (laughs). He has a really low defense stat but he hits fast, so it’s crucial that you string your combos together. When paired with Stahn, if you can isolate your bosses in the far side of the screen, they go down quite fast. Then I see the popup that Rutee’s picking gald off the floor again and I just use healing items on him (laughs).

I wanted to make Chelsea cute and small, so I based her image off of little birds. I gave her a palette of pink, green and blue, and made her hair look like a cockatoo or parrot. Her bloomers look like a paper lantern and I find them quite cute (laughs). Her life story makes me want to cry though. She’s fine and all in the first game, but in the sequel, she’s still wearing those bloomers from when she was a kid, living all alone on a snowy mountain. And if you go through her drawers, you can take something that Woodrow gave to her. I felt so bad, I thought “even though it’s so out of the way, I’ll go buy all the items you need!” (laughs). Then she makes all of these bows for you, but by then, I’d already enhanced my weapons a lot… But I felt so bad that I never Refined them and thought, “I’ll keep these on me forever” (laughs).

Johnny’s original idea was “troubadour,” but as the story progressed and I gave him his hat and all sorts of plumes, he came out a bit comical (laughs). He’s a really fun character to have in your party though, and I fell in love with him right away. I love that his tone-deafness does physical damage to the enemies (laughs).

With the Swordians, they have the will of humans and I wanted to incorporate that into their designs, but it didn’t seem to fit so I went for something more inorganic. Berselius alone has a creepy aura to him, and when Destiny 2 came around I thought “But his owner is such a nice person! Is it really okay for him to have such a creepy design?” but then I thought well, maybe Harold just likes things that way (laughs).

#seines translation #tales of destiny #tales of destiny 2 #mutsumi inomata #tales design notes #inomata mutsumi

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williamrikers · 11 months

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On the subject of consent in recent BLs

In this analysis, I will take a look at several love scenes in recent Thai BLs, how they frame consent and the sexual agency of the characters, and why those matter.

(KinnPorsche deserves its own post: I’m sure people have already written in detail about how much emphasis is placed on issues of consent/non-consent throughout the show and how fundamental consent is to the relationship arcs of both KinnPorsche and VegasPete, and I won’t belabor the point here. Also, special shout-out to The Warp Effect for what it brought to the conversation about gay sex, but TWE isn’t technically a BL so I decided not to include it in this analysis.)

I am going to take a closer look at the following shows in this essay: Not Me, The Eclipse, A Boss And A Babe, Step By Step, and La Pluie.

Not Me and The Eclipse predate the other shows by two years/one year respectively, but I feel it is valuable to include them here because both show very explicit negotiations of consent that I feel are spiritual successors to the wonderful scenes we’ve been getting in the other three shows.

Why am I even writing this? There used to be an unfortunate tendency in the genre to have a power imbalance between the “seme” and the “uke” character, which translated into the seme deciding when to have sex and what kind of sex to have—and even though recently, several shows have done good work in dismantling the seme/uke dynamic and questioning the associated stereotypes, it cannot be denied that the archetypes are still an important part of most BLs, and even in cases where the tropes are played with and questioned, understanding those subversions still requires a knowledge of and familiarity with the original tropes on the part of the audience.

However, gone are the days of Until We Meet Again and Dean’s “I’ve waited long enough, make sure you’re ready.” (I enjoyed UWMA a lot but that was. Yeah. Not Great.) Now, we see characters actually talking about and negotiating their limits, and doing what feels good to them.

Let’s start from the very beginning. Not Me was an absolute trailblazer in this regard, and not mentioning it here would be a gross oversight. The first time Sean and White have sex, it happens in their version of the beach episode. (Which, in Not Me, is the two characters briefly living in a tent inside an abandoned building. This show is the best.) Sean and White are removed from their usual environment and protected from the outside world by two barriers: the walls of the old house and the tent that’s literally enveloping them and giving them a space that is unequivocally theirs, shared, in which neither one of the characters has any sort of power over the other. And what happens in that space when they’re about to have sex is extremely interesting: the first thing Sean asks is whether White is afraid of him, which White denies. The following exchange goes like this: White: "So, what are we doing?" Sean: "What should I do to you?" White: "That’s up to you." (Watch the whole scene here.)

I find this exchange incredibly meaningful because this already turns the seme/uke dynamic that can be found in a lot of other shows on its head. OffGun as a branded pair can easily be stereotyped into the seme/uke dynamic just because of their physical appearances, and clearly spelling out that both characters have agency in this scene is incredibly important.

And then it gets better! Sean assumes that White is sexually inexperienced (which is not true but the fact that White was actually in a relationship with a woman back in Russia never comes up again after the pilot episode, so maybe the show expects us to assume this, too), and suggests they try different things and White can tell him what he likes and doesn’t like. Compared to the stuff we’re getting now, this scene isn’t very high heat at all, but it’s one of my favorite intimate scenes ever because them asking each other “Do you like this?” after every kiss, every touch, is so incredibly unique and transports a wonderful sense of figuring out sexual pleasure together, as a couple.

Sex in Not Me is not something one character does to another, it is something that is discovered and shared together, and we even get an afterglow scene in which they gently tease each other about their fast beating hearts. (And don’t get me started on the importance of White choosing to ask Sean whether Sean is okay with White not being like Black in that moment right before they have sex, because he doesn’t actually want to have sex with Sean as Black! He wants to discover and share intimacy with Sean as White, as himself, not as his brother! The layers!)

Anyway, I think that scene paved the way for a lot of the conversations around consent we’re now getting in BL, just because it is so explicitly, unashamedly putting forward a definition of sexuality that has nothing to do with one character actively giving and the other passively receiving, but frames intimacy as something that is built together. (More on giving and receiving later!)

Now, moving on to The Eclipse. I decided to include the first time Akk and Aye have sex for a different reason: while we don’t really see them actually talking about consent, we see them practicing non-verbal consent. Let me explain. Akk’s and Aye’s whole thing is teasing each other. At first, Aye is usually the one doing the teasing, but Akk gets the hang of it towards the end of the show and teases his boyfriend right back. When they’re in Akk’s childhood bedroom together, Aye clearly alludes to the fact that he thought they might use this opportunity to have sex for the first time, which Akk pretends not to understand, all while alluding to it himself. I love this guy. (Watch the whole scene here.) Anyway, Akk says he wants to sleep, lies down and once again, tells Aye jokingly he just wants to sleep, clearly expecting Aye to do what other BL protagonists do at that point and not take no for an answer (sidenote: I HATE the “saying no as foreplay” trope with a passion and as far as I’m concerned it should die already).

However, Aye is not like other BL love interests, and he backs off. He stops touching Akk, lies down with his back to Akk, showing Akk that he takes him by his word: if Akk says he wants to sleep, Aye is going to let him do just that. So now, it’s on Akk to say that, no, that’s not what he meant, can Aye please come back to cuddle. And then Akk is the one to escalate from cuddling to kissing, which is extremely important: we know that Aye has been ready to have sex with Akk since forever, it’s Akk who’s been having hangups about intimacy this whole time.

They don’t put consent into so many words on this show, but Aye shows Akk that he respects his limits and that Akk only has to tell him he doesn’t want to do something and Aye will take him at his word.

So, these are, to me, two foundational scenes of establishing consent: one that shows consent as something that is established verbally, as an ongoing conversation, and one that shows consent as something that is established physically, by showing your partner that you respect their choices and limits by way of simply acting accordingly.

Now, let’s get into the fun part: scenes we got so far in 2023. I’m writing this post on the 13th of June, and I’m sure this year still has some great things in store for us, especially because Step By Step and La Pluie are both ongoing and neither of the main couples are actually together yet at time of writing. However, they’ve both already given us AMAZING scenes on the topic of consent, so I feel it is worthwhile to write about those already.

I want to start off by talking about A Boss And A Babe.

Let me just preface this by saying that the intimate scenes in ABAAB are some of my all time favorites in BL ever, because in them, sex is something that is just so normal. When Gun and Cher have sex, we don’t see them very passionate, excited, reluctant or wide-eyed innocent (which are some of the emotions traditionally associated with sex in BL). On the contrary, in every single scene that shows them being intimate, both characters are incredibly calm. They’re certainly happy to be with each other, but in a subdued way. Someone described their second intimate scene as them seeming like they’ve been married for a few years. They’re both just… incredibly normal about having sex with each other. It’s simply something they like to do together. It’s a part of their romance but it’s not more or less important than any other aspects of their lives.

And consent is at the very heart of it.

When Gun and Cher have their first time, we see Gun explicitly asking for consent two times: first, “Can I kiss you?”, then, “Can I do more?” The second one even comes with the promise that if Cher says no, Gun will immediately go to sleep without mentioning it again. And then it is on Cher to say yes, to pull Gun close and kiss him to show him that he is comfortable with taking things further. (In the show, these two questions were shown apart from each other, I cut together a version of the whole First Time Scene in its entirety, watch it here.)

Now, things get more interesting: the second intimate scene shows Cher initiating the encounter (watch the whole scene here). Cher pretty consistently falls into the uke category, both physically and as far as characterization is concerned, but he’s certainly not shy in the bedroom. And this time, he’s the one who asks for consent from Gun: Gun asks “You’re starting it?” and Cher’s response is “Can I?” Despite him being framed physically lower than Gun, basically at Gun’s mercy, he still seeks confirmation that Gun is okay with the way things are going. Not to overstate it, but to me, this feels revolutionary. Once again, we’re being shown that sex is something two people do together, as a shared activity, and that the “seme” character isn’t expected to just be up for it. He, too, has the right to say no.

On this show, sexual agency is taken extremely seriously, and it is clear that both Gun and Cher give each other space to decide what they’re comfortable doing. This is shown in non-intimate scenes as well: there are so many moments on ABAAB in which the characters negotiate physical touch and closeness, asking each other for hugs before actually hugging each other, Cher leaning on Gun’s shoulder in the car but not allowing Gun to touch him because that’s not what he’s comfortable with in that moment, and so on. (The only exception to this otherwise pretty consistent rule is the kiss in the car scene, which I’m still extremely confused about because it seems to go completely against Gun’s character. Who knows what happened there.)

Of course, the fact that so much emphasis is placed on negotiation and consent isn’t surprising on a show that has such obvious kink undertones and whose Our Skyy 2 entry basically consisted entirely of Dom/sub roleplay at work—I’m just saying, I think someone on the writing team is way into BDSM and knows all about the importance of enthusiastic consent from all parties involved, and I would like to send them flowers.

Step By Step hasn’t really reached the point where we can analyse the dynamic between the main couple (although we can take some educated guesses based on the interactions we’ve seen so far). However, last week’s episode had an extremely important scene between Pat and Put: Pat wanting to have sex with Put, then changing his mind mid make-out (watch the whole scene here). I really like the way this scene was done. No matter how shitty Put treats Pat at times, in this instance, he immediately understood and respected Pat’s change of mind without Pat even saying or explaining anything—at the end of the episode, Put says to Pat that Pat should tell Put when he feels ready to have sex. (We already know this will never happen because of course, Pat and Put are not endgame, but I do appreciate the sentiment.)

BLs rarely include a whole storyline in which the protagonist is in an actual, serious romantic relationship with someone other than his endgame love interest (hi Moonlight Chicken!), or if they do then just to up the angst factor. In this case, however, I feel that this scene raises our expectations for Jeng even further: if the guy who is definitely not a romantic match for Pat treats Pat with this much respect in the bedroom, then Jeng has to do at least that and then some. I do feel confident that Jeng won’t disappoint in this regard, but it’s fascinating to see a show frame this kind of respect as the absolute baseline minimum, with the endgame love interest expected to do even better.

Now, the one you’ve all been waiting for. The one that made me write this whole essay in the first place: La Pluie.

Oh boy. Where to start.

A week ago, we got an incredible make-out scene on Saengtai’s floor, which ended in Patts stopping the encounter because he could tell Tai wasn’t really comfortable taking things further—@bengiyo talked about that scene in detail here. And then, three days ago, La Pluie gave us the most unique, trope-defying, timeline-changing blowjob scene of all time, and I want to talk about it.

Tai and Patts are making out on their bed, Tai is not ready to go “all the way” and stops Patts from undressing him. We see a very realistic frustrated reaction from Patts, who nevertheless immediately stops and accepts Tai’s wishes—it is clear that Patts does not expect things to go any further at this point, and that he won’t pressure Tai into anything.

And then, Tai offers to blow him.

(Unfortunately, this show is only on iQiyi so I can't link to it, but you can get a good impression of the scene here.)

I mentioned the concepts of giving and receiving earlier: other people have said this more eloquently than me, but there is a tendency not only in BL but also in wider society to view sex in terms of giving and receiving, with a lot of expectations and stereotypes attached to the roles during different sexual acts. On other shows, that blowjob might be framed as a consolidation or an apology, something that the giver does out of a sense of obligation without enjoying it much. Not so on La Pluie! Tai is shown incredibly happy and satisfied afterwards, both when they’re sleeping next to each other, as well as on the morning after (see also @ginnymoonbeam's post about that here). Tai offered to blow Patts because he simply wanted to, not motivated by guilt or anything of that sort. And he genuinely enjoyed it! In the post I linked above, @bengiyo points out that La Pluie consistently centers queer desire, or more specifically in this case, male desire for a male body; much in the same way that the camera fucking loves Force’s body on ABAAB: the sensuality of the skin, the hands, the abs, the flat chests, the broad backs and shoulders of these men is explicitly emphasized, and Tai’s desire for a dick in his mouth is made absolutely crystal-clear. Of course, since this is a TV show and not a porno, we only see Patts’s thumb in Tai’s mouth instead of his dick, but the imagery, the implications, are clear as day.

And it is such a gentle framing, too: Patts caresses Tai’s lip lovingly, Tai opens his mouth slowly, seductively, then faces Patts’s crotch with a soft look on his face. We do get a clear sense of this encounter as tender, and gentle, and most of all, desired. Tai’s queer desire is at the heart of this scene, and at the heart of the afterglow scene as well. He wanted this man’s dick in his mouth, openly suggested it, showed Patts he was sure about his decision after Patts asked him whether he was, and ended up clearly happy and satisfied with the sex they had. This post, also by @bengiyo, goes into more detail on that.

This, once again, shows us sex as a conversation rather than a series of predetermined acts, shows us sex as a shared activity, as something that can be wonderful and intimate and make people happy without following what society views as “the correct steps”. I think this is extremely important because one part of queer identity is figuring out one’s own relationship to sexuality, one’s own desires and needs, and BLs that ignore this aspect fall a little short in my opinion. Sure, those men are kissing, but do they experience queer desire? Do they experience joy in their queer desire?

For me personally, a show that does not shy away from these questions is a lot more meaningful than a show that does, and consent is at the heart of it all. By framing sex as a conversation, as something that is built and shared together, the shows I looked at here are actively positioning themselves against the idea that there should be predetermined roles for partners during sex, and instead suggest that queer joy can be found in communication and consent. Understanding sex and intimacy as something that is built together, with both partners as equals in conversation, is just as radically queer as a man waking up with a smile on his face after giving his soulmate a blowjob the previous night.

And quite honestly, a male character who clearly, passionately, unquestioningly communicates that he wants a dick inside of him—that is incredibly sexy. But maybe that’s just me.

#*mine #not me the series #the eclipse #the eclipse the series #a boss and a babe #step by step #step by step the series #la pluie #la pluie the series #i said ''is anyone going to write a 3k meta analysis on this topic'' then didn't wait for an answer

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ineffable-opinions · 3 months

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Seme/uke - long response

A decolonial and subaltern take on three posts on seme/uke dynamics that aims to contextualize them while questioning ethnocentrism. I welcome alternative perspectives, corrections and criticisms.

Post #1: Seme/uke dynamics in Be Loved in House...

@absolutebl responding to @echos-of-ivy

Seme – Uke

About two or more characters in a ship/pairing:

seme 攻め: top (the pitcher) (from origin - attack) also referred to as 左 (left)、タチ (tachi)、トップ (top)

uke 受け: bottom (the catcher) (from origin – receive / accept) also referred to as 右 (right)、ネコ(neko/cat)、ボトム (bottom)

riba リバ: verse (doesn't mind being either a top or a bottom) (from origin - reversible)

seme and uke are sourced from martial arts lingo: seme (martial arts), uke (martial arts) & is related to nanshoku tradition (depictied in ukiyo-e style painting below) of androphilia rather than western norms of queerness. Such differences in culture in queerness is seldom appreciated.

Spring Pastimes. Miyagawa Isshō, c. 1750

Sometimes, androphilic men use seme/uke/riba instead of the following terms which are popular in their queer community:

tachi タチ凸 - top

neko ネコ凹 - bottom

riba リバ回 – verse

Other BL producing countries also have similar terms for seme/uke/riba. And those countries also have terms for top/bottom/verse/side in their queer communities.

For example,

In Chinese BL (danmei), seme/uke/riba -> gong (攻)/shou (受)/hu gong (互攻)[1]

In Chinese tongzhi community -

top: gong (攻) or 1 or 上 or 凸

bottom: shou (受) or 0 or 下 or 凹

verse: bu fen (不分)or 0.5 or 10

side: 不10 or 纯爱[2]

四爱 (fourth love) is the Chinese term for heterosexual relationship wherein the woman tops. When fictionalized, such romances are referred to as GB (girl boy) romance as opposed to BG (boy girl) and the heroine is referred to as female gong 女攻め.

In Thai BL, seme/uke/riba -> me (เมะ)/ ke (เคะ)/ se (เซะ) & their queer community have these terms.

Evolution

When the work does not involve sexual acts, seme/uke/riba is assigned based on speculation (‘what if’) in line with audiences’ preference. There are a bunch of stuff that are employed to determine the dynamics but owing to variation in taste, audience don’t always agree with each other. Since seme/uke/riba archetypes rose to that status with the yaoi (doujin) boom with development of comiket, etc. tanbi, June, original shonen ai and other such types of BL don’t follow these archetypes. Live action which follows, to an extent, the latter tradition, such as Boys Love (2006), also don’t have uke/seme/riba archetypes, instead follows the archetypes that was popularized by tanbi literary movement. Tanbi literary movement was queer in more ways than one. It preceded/birthed BL (Mori Mari) and influenced it.

As no culture is passive recipient [pun intended], different glocalizations of seme/uke/riba dynamics exhibit different features, both within and outside Asia (eg. original English-language BL publication).

IRL

While being top/bottom/verse/side pertains to sexual preference/choices and acts or lack thereof, it is not devoid of other implications. Here are some interplay between these preferences/choices and the implications to consider:

Are these preference/choices innate or socially formed? Or both? Or neither?

What does it mean to be top/bottom/verse/side – within and outside the queer community?

Performance of masculinity, femininity, neither. Which masculinity/femininity? Is that masculinity/femininity performance – marginalized, soft, protest, hegemonic or amalgamated?

How local and global queer cultures influence it?

Is it some kind of conformation/attempt to fit in? If yes, what kind and why?

How are those choices impacted by history (including that of colonialism), legal/political implication (e.g.: pink certificate in Türkiye), local forms of patriarchy & heterosexism, class, nationality, race, skin color, caste, age, employment (including sex work) or lack thereof, physical location & avenues of exploration, abilities and disabilities, access to internet & other infrastructure, education (including sex education), health conditions and access to medical care, etc.

How do they form expectations regarding oneself and others?

While it can be argued that there shouldn’t be any other implication associated with such preference/choices, one can not simply wish them away as it is more often than not linked to certain social realities.

BL as well as gei comi are genres of fiction, telling tales of male androphilia – these are reproductions of imagination entwined with realities, reflecting desires, fantasies and biases plenty.

Conflation

I disagree that uke/seme/riba archetypes are conflated “casually” with bottom/top/verse in narratives and discussions around them. There is a difference that P’AbsoluteBL probably isn’t aware of:

Uke is the bottom in a ship. A character could be uke in a ship, seme or riba in another. For a character to be a ‘bottom’, he has to be sou uke or total/complete uke. It means no matter who he is paired with he will always be the uke.

Alternatively, a sou uke is a character that makes all other characters become seme for him and go after him.

Similarly, a character could be called ‘top’ when that character is a sou seme or total/complete seme. Unless a character is established as a sou seme or sou uke in the narrative, there is always a possibility that those characters are verse. While most BL involves set ships, it is not rare to find characters who are uke in one relationship becoming seme or riba in another. Sometimes, after a time skip, transmigration, reincarnation, etc. BL characters end up switching within a ship.

In Live Action

While there is plenty of riba ships in other BL media, live action has had very few.

These couples were riba in the novel:

Bai Luoyin and Gu Hai – Addicted – The censorship struck right after the couple had their first coitus interfemoris (based on the chronology in the novel).

Lu Feng and Cheng Yichen - A Round Trip to Love

Lan Yu and Chen Handong - Lan Yu

Dom/sub

While the P’AbsoluteBL is allowed to do whatever, I don’t think correlating dom/sub with seme/uke is a good idea in the context of BL because:

BL has a separate speculative fiction subgenre called dom-sub-verse (Dom/Subユニバース) which have its own conventions. It is one of the many subgenres that took inspiration from omegaverse and has grown parallel to it. It takes dominance and submission from the kink community and explores them as innate/biological traits.

It involves characters who are identified as Dom(ドム), Sub(サブ), Switch(スウィッチ), and Usual/Normal/Neutral(ユージュアル/ノーマル/ニュートラル). Along with the standard elements of BDSM in fiction such as safeword, sub space, sub drop and aftercare, it also involves additional elements such as kneel(ニール), glare(グレア) and collar (カラー). There are commands コマンド (命令) that Dom gives to Sub. Sometimes elements borrowed from omegaverse such as heats/ruts, suppressants and professional Dom also appear in this sub-genre.

Dom×Sub ship: Dom is the seme & Sub is the uke.

eg. Hizamazuite Ai Wo Tou 『跪いて愛を問う』 & Rhetoric 『レトリック』 by 山田ノノノ Mijuku Na Boku Ha Shihai Wo Kou 『未熟な僕は支配を乞う 1』 by音海ちさ

Sub×Dom ship: Sub is the seme & Dom is the uke.

Jouzu Ni Dekita Ne Watasesan 『上手にできたね、渡瀬さん』 by 野萩あき Shoshinsha Dom Ha Hameraretai 『初心者Domはハメられたい』 by やんちゃ Gohoubi Ni Kubiwa Wo Kudasai (ご褒美に首輪をください) by Naruse Kano

Dom×Switch ship: Dom is the seme & Switch is the uke.

Sono Meirei De Ore Wo Abaite 『その命令で俺を暴いて』 by 小夏うみれ愛の声で暴いて by 泉門くきいでおすわりしてみせて by 由元千子

Switch×Switch ship: One of the switches is the seme and the other the uke.

強情なSwitchの躾け方 by ことぶき

Dom×Dom ship: One of the dom is the seme and the other the uke.

コマンドミー、プリーズ by 町田とまとサディスティックに暴かれたい by 星崎レオ (uke is a Dom, seme’s identity is not made clear) Kyousei Switch 『強制Switch』 by 彩田あまた

Like most BL genres, it is yet to make its way into live-action BL.

There are plenty of BDSM themed BL as well as training (調教) style BL where seme/riba/uke can be switch or sub or dom.

Problematizing the Problem

Hence, the argument that conflation of seme/uke with top/bottom is “a PROBLEM” is ironic. The main reason given for that argument is that “het consumers [would] conflate (egregiously & incorrectly) top with male/masculine and bottom with female/feminine.” Here are some things that I think is relevant to think about that:

Why would ‘het people’ or any people for that matter think in terms of male-female / masculine-feminine binaries? Do they think in those binaries only and not other binaries such as wen(文)-wu(武)? Why think in binaries and dichotomies at all? Don’t they not think in terms of multiplicity of genders/gender expressions such as various kinds of masculinities and femininities) based off on their local contexts?

Do queer people not make such/similar conflations? (Hint: they do.)

Is it a problem? While this seems to be the popular notion, plenty of scholars from across the globe has dismantled it.

What exactly do P’AbsoluteBL think ‘het people’ conflate riba characters with? Feminine-feminine? Masculine-masculine? Neither? Both? Something else?

There are different conceptions of masculinities within a culture which get reflected in cultural goods, including BL, from there. Here are some really old depictions:

Qing dynasty Chinese Water and Land Ritual painting depicting a divine civil official and thunder god in military regalia. [Wen - wu]

Paintings of Padmapani and Vajrapani on either side of the Buddha, from cave 1 of the Ajanta Caves.

Moreover, if the problem is hinging on a particular understanding of seme/uke: the one in which seme is not feminine or uke is not masculine enough. If latter is the issue, it can be fixed by sticking to BL media with otokomae uke or macho uke. If former is the issue, there’s more than enough works with maiden seme and josou seme. If one is yet to encounter any such works, one is not looking far enough.

Masculinities in BL

Here are three central characters from Finder series embodies different types of masculinities – a lot of it is presentation, physical attributes, age, power and social standing. Akihito is a young and vivacious uke who happens to be short and sinewy. Asami Ryuichi is a supadari seme: a guy who is tall, well educated, high earning, with good looks. In addition, he cooks and cleans and cares when he wants to. Fei Long is tall, beautiful and cunning and can be regarded as a riba character. But can any of these characters considered not masculine by regular standards? Isn’t Akihito masculine enough for his age? And if we are to compare Asami, we are sure to find him lacking but then give him time to grow. They have a dozen years between them. Moreover, can average men stand comparison with a super darling? But then in the grand setup of patriarchy, isn’t power concentrated in the hands of the older men who dominates even the super darlings, both in real world and fictional ones.

Ayase Yukiya & Kanou Somuku from No Money

Consider the case of Ayase, would you call him a “feminine” uke? Probably yes. He is small in stature - petite and cute. He is definitely very small in comparison to his seme Kanou. They probably have one of the most exaggerated size differences and an extreme case of the traditional pairing.

The traditional pairing comes from the customary practice of androphilia in pre-modern Japan. It involves relationship between a wakashu and a nenja or from the tradition of nanshoku. The former is not considered a man by the period’s standards and is considered a third gender by some scholars. The latter is considered as a mentor and lover for the former. While the traditional faded with ‘modernization’, tanbi literary movement (among others) kept alive remnants of it through the writings of the likes of Yukio Mishima.

Note that the youth on the left is wearing a kimono whose style (furisode) and color was considered appropriate for adolescents of both sexes but not adult men, which along with the partially shaved pate denotes the boy's wakashū age status while the exposed bare feet indicates the purely sexual demeanor.

The traditional pairing has clearly inspired Japanese mangaka both BL artists and others. Look at the wakashu in customary androgynous clothing, younger, fairer and even smaller than the nenja, with relatively less experience being embraced by nenja who is in customary male clothing.

Check out more shunga about nanshoku to see visual ancestor of “yaoi”. The visual legacy continued with the likes of Go Mishima. The queers did it first.

From the series "Mishima Go Book of Young Man" - Japan - 1972 (Showa 47)

Ayase in No Money fits into the wakashu ideal. Moreover, the creators of this manga explicitly differentiated between feminine uke with wakashu uke by juxtaposing Ayase with Someya who embodies traditional femininity.

Someya and Honda from Henshin Dekinai

Putting it into perspective, it is noticeable that many a BL involves similar pairing. A lot of criticism BL faces is when it sticks to nanshoku dynamics. Interestingly, critics who can’t imagine genders beyond masculine and feminine, fail to tell apart “feminine” characteristics from wakashu characteristics. But there is no dearth of such dynamics getting subverted in numerous ways in BL:

ship with younger, lower class, petite, androgynous or any combination of customary wakashu characteristics in seme/riba.

ship with all parties being of similar age, class, physical attributes, experience, etc.

Emancipation

Shouldn’t typical uke archetype be seen as an example of subversion of the main character masculinity that dominates media landscape? Shouldn’t they be exalted for being what they are? Uke archetype that allows all genders to project onto and gain pleasure from, is that any less than a marvel in itself?

Pursuer & Pursued

In order to analyses if there is a shift in seme-uke dynamic, the P’AbsoluteBL employs the following to categories who is active:

who is pursuing whom

who makes the first call in terms of declarations and physical touch

who seems to be more in charge of the relationship

In BL, these are never reserved for seme/uke/riba. Who takes on which role depends on the narrative. BL rarely have fixed pursuer-pursued. All parties involved in a ship take on active role in different circumstances.

Take, for example, the original edition of Ossan’s Love, Hasegawa Yukiya employs certain indirect tactics to pursuing Soichi Haruta such as cooking, cleaning and caring for him. (These are tasks that seme/riba/uke usually engage in lighter BLs to gain and retain the attention/affection of the one they are pursuing.) Hasegawa also engages in activities they do together as a means to grow closer. Once he learns of his love rival, he switches up the tactic. He pursues more directly and aggressively. Soichi rejects him. He withdraws and returns to the original tactic but without attempts to grow closer. Soichi feels the loss and tries to get close to Hasegawa but is brushed off. He does not back down. Instead, he takes on a more aggressive route of pursuit - making amends and chasing after Hasegawa.

What P’AbsoluteBL implies with “I think BLIHID’s main couple has a REALLY weak seme/uke dynamic from the get go” is made abundantly clear in with “ShiLei does a lot of active pursuit, also he’s very self actualized.” Here, using pursuer/pursued would have sufficed. Instead, P’AbsoluteBL chose to disappropriate established terms ‘seme/uke’ and imbibed them with implications of “active pursuit” as well as “self-actualization” [regarding queer identity] that seme/uke/riba doesn’t carry originally. Most of it based on biases built on equating all BL to one type of BL: the one with traditional pairing that follows royal road progression.

What P’AbsoluteBL actively avoids discussing is that Beloved in House is basically following the super popular ‘domineering president’ plot based on a BG romance.

Live Action Struggles

P’AbsoluteBL mentions an imagined ‘struggles around seme/uke’ in live-action BL. I think the actual issue plaguing live action BL is the struggle to balance business and other interests while being able to do justice to the diversity within BL as a media genre.

source: (chil-chil.net)

In the chart:

ほのぼの – heartwarming – Example: Restart After Come Back Home

コメディ – comedy – Cherry Magic

ダーク – dark – Sing in Love

シリアス – serious – Cornered Mouse Dream of Cheese

キュン – exciting (kyun) – Mr. Unlucky Has No Choice but to Kiss

Japan has trouble in diversifying its live-action in terms of sub-genres and treatment/mood. Even Thailand, despite the amount it produces have trouble offering variety. Riba couple, maiden seme, yarachin characters, yandere X yandere ship, etc. are either very rare or non-existent in live action BL. Moreover, live action BL is seldom explicit and are mostly in the speculative territory with seme/uke/riba dynamics, making it all the harder to diversify.

Tbh, what fascinated me the most is the “I kind of automatically cringed” part of the question. I would love to know what brought about that reaction. I am sure that it would help shed some light on discourse surrounding BL in general.

Post #2: Blushing Maiden Trope & Seme/Uke

Discussion (intended and in italics) between an anon, @heretherebedork & P’AbsoluteBL on actions and reactions during physical relationships.

The discussion centers around “the character placed into the stereotypically feminine role” being repulsed/reluctant/hesitant when it comes to physical relationships. It is directly attributed to “purity culture in BLs”.

BL have a complicated relationship with “purity” or being “clean”. Tanbi roots of BL hinged on sexuality and obsession with beauty to the point of decadence. Shonen ai (original meaning) works also had characters who are usually promiscuous for one reason or the other, never forming very deep relationship (at least not enough to stick to monogamous unions for long) yet endlessly entangled with other characters, often baffling non-queer characters in those works.

from Song of the Wind and Trees

[Inviting readers to hazard a guess: who is the seme and who is the uke. Answer at the end of this post.]

But how explicit the depiction of physical relationships has varied in BL with time and space. Japanese BL with the self-published BL (aniparo / yaoi – original meaning) boom saw very explicit depictions side by side with the commercial BL which have barely any explicit content or those which take a closed-door approach. Now Japanese BL have a wide range in terms of explicit content and have grown to incorporate elements from other genres including gei comi. Korean BL is similarly doing well. It is not uncommon to have chapters or parts of chapter in manhwa and novels dedicated to the celebration of physical relationships. Thai BL also have no dearth of explicit content, especially in web publishing. Chinese BL in its early days had lots of explicit content, especially in self-publishing. But as censors started taking notice and cracking down, authors and platforms clamped down. Most BL were purged of any & all explicit content. Some of it migrated to Taiwanese platforms, AO3 & other foreign hosts. Now all danmei published is “pure love” devoid of even allusion to depiction of any physical relationship beyond above neck action.

When it comes to BL live action, things are a little different. In Japan and to an extend abroad, there has always been overlap between audience of BL and audience of Japanese GVs and pink eiga. Moreover, early live-action Japanese BL was probably aimed exclusively at hardcore BL fans. They were way more explicit on average and did not always involve physical relationship between the main ship. Same seems true about early live-action Chinese BL. A Round Trip to Love Part 2 (2016) even had bondage and SM scenes which wasn’t there in the novel; but then it didn’t have the hard-earned happy ending the novel had either. But now, even dangai with “socialist brotherhood” (社会主义兄弟情) can’t be aired. Meanwhile, Japan’s average BL today lacks much explicit content. This isn’t to say that it doesn’t drop an occasional Sei no Gekiyaku (2020) once in a blue moon. Here are my speculations to why more of those doesn’t get made.

There is another reason for “purity culture” in BL.

Sathaporn Panichraksapong, an MD of GMMTV, a major producer of BL series, claimed that audience members who are mainly heterosexual women look for romantic relationships among the characters rather than sexual relationships.

We know that our audience are [sic] women. Women want to see only two boys having romantic moments together. They don't want to see sex. Sexual relationships in BL are for a gay audience. That's why in SOTUS the Series we have only two kissing scenes. With only these, audiences were already screaming. This is enough for them. (Interview with Sathaporn, GMMTV, 10 Aug. 2017)

Jirattikorn, Amporn. "Heterosexual Reading vs. Queering Thai Boys' Love Dramas among Chinese and Filipino Audiences." (2023).

As Jirattikorn goes on to highlight, this [wrong] perception about the audience (“women”) have changed ever since.

While early BL series tend to portray pure love without showing many sexual relationships, later BL series started to show more sex scenes between the two male lead characters.

Jirattikorn (2023)

“It’s always the character being pursued, who is typically in his first relationship, who Never Thinks Of Sex. They’re often very sweet and innocent and wide-eyed.”

While heretherebedork attributes it to “purity culture”, it can be argued that this has to do with what audience wanted:

I like the way they portray love in Thai BL. It is a kind of puppy love. BL of other nations, like Chinese BL, are darker. In Thai BL, two male characters often start off friends, then develop feelings for each other. It is very light, very sweet. (Krissy, f, 27, Philippines)

Jirattikorn (2023)

and what media houses thought they wanted, as evidenced by Jirattikorn’s interviews with BL fans. This is not to dismiss struggles with purity culture which is often a very slow part of decolonialization.

P’AbsoluteBL goes further to the argument that “purity” is associated with seme/uke dynamics in BL and maps it to typical het pairing (BG):

The stronger the seme/uke dynamic (the more heterosexually dysmorphic and less actually gay) the more likely this trope will manifest. Simply put: the man (because he is hooah a MANLY MAN DUDE) wants sex but the woman (delicate pure flower of cleanliness and joy) does not. And if she does want it she is a DIRTY, worthless, whore - so she MUST protest sex (GASP) at every single turn. (Seme is acting the male and uke the female in these kinds of narratives.) *please sense my sarcasm dumb interwebs, mm’kay?*

It’s true that the argument seems persuasive but is it right? Probably not. Seme, uke and riba characters can be divided into strong/weak categories based on their characterization - with the strong ones being those who pursue, take initiative, most likely to initiate intimacy at least for their first time, etc. and weak ones being those at the receiving end of pursuits and initiatives. Pairing a strong one with a weak one is probably more traditional –

strong riba x weak riba like in Addicted (at least before time skip)

strong seme x weak uke like in Old Fashioned Cupcake

weak seme x strong uke like in Saezurutori Wa Habatakanai (at least before time skip; pavam Doumeki)

compared to those with both parties being strong (which leads to delectable friction and sparks flying when done right) or both being weak (which leads to audience wondering: will either of them do something? No? Very well!).

BL’s sex negativity

Seme gets overwhelmed by his lust for uke, acts aggressively and has to be shut down or warned off.

Not only seme, uke and riba characters does this too. P’AbsoluteBL attributes “getting overwhelmed by lust” and “acting aggressively” to seme when it can be attributed to both uke (襲い受け) and riba as well. Other than acting aggressively, characters may employ seduction (eg. Xia Shang Zhou in You Are Mine (2023) - tried and failed & Charlie in Pit Babe (2023) - successful) and/or manipulation (Color Recipe by Harada).

Seme won’t take no for an answer because his needs are too great and his needs take precedence (he’s “the man” after all) and the uke is just TOO CUTE how could anyone resist? (After all the seme is only gay for this one guy because he is so cute. Everything, therefor, is the uke and his cutenesses’ fault.)

Moreover, P’AbsoluteBL is probably not aware of kawai seme who employ their cuteness to get uke to lower the guard and to seduce. Cuteness is clearly not a uke prerogative.

Like the sailor-costume wearing seme on the cover, cuteness is sometimes invoked through conventionally women’s clothing, cosplaying (maid, sailor, nurse), etc.

If the seme makes the choice to have sex for the uke, then the uke is not at fault and is still technically innocent. Only if an uke wants it, is he actually impure (or actually gay). In H4 when they both comfort and sex shame the bottom after the rape sequence, this is the narrative’s mentality. (A man who does not want sex is assumed to be able to fight another man off.) Oh and ALSO, the seme must read the uke’s mind and know what the uke really wants.

I don’t even know what went into this argument. There is an entire subgenre: 調教 BL (training / conditioning) that is focused on pleasure training. If a character (seme/uke/riba) wants sex in a narrative, it usually only means that their partner is on the right track. Moreover, when a character wants, actively seeks and are denied intimacy for manipulation reasons, then their partner is made out to be cruel (either 鬼畜 or ゲス・クズ).

In other words, if the uke is interested in sex, he’s made impure by this interest. Sex of any kind is an act of desperation and indicates lack of control and therefor diminishes both parties but particularly the uke, therefor the uke shouldn’t have to take responsibility of wanting sex, so the decision must be made by the seme for both of them. He is being a “good seme” by doing this. The uke, therefore MUST appear reluctant to have sex, or he is not a good/pure/virtuous person.

Honestly, I haven’t come across BL which gives off this kind of message. However, two-faced scummy characters (seme/uke/riba) get to employ hypocrisy, which includes slut-shaming, to humiliate characters they are shipped with but then such narratives are built to illicit hatred (for scummy characters) and angst and often punished with:

(a) unhappy ending for the couple

(b) breaking up of the ship

(d) switching within ship – uke turns into riba/seme or seme turns into riba/uke – or shift in power dynamics (rich character becomes relatively poorer, junior from school becomes senior/superior in workplace).

A lot of readers find such dramatic plots satisfying and hence it is a successful subgenre.

Can you guess the seme in these 20 BL manga? Try this quiz on renta.

Post #3: How do they determine who will be archetype seme/uke?

Discussion regarding seme/uke determination in BL: @elynn0723 & P'AbsoluteBL (intended and in italics).

I think your confusion is partly nested in the fact that seme/uke is not about who fucks who, not really. Certainly not anymore. Seme/uke are narrative archetypes not physical acts.

Disappropritation. Discussed above.

I should say for the record that personality is NOT sexual preference.

P’AbsoluteBL goes onto give examples (all of which are fictionalized in different genres – GB, BL, etc.) but probably due to being limited by lack of exposure, goes onto ask, “How weird that anyone would think queers do this.” Queers do this. If one is willing to look beyond LGBTQIA+ form of queerness (which is born and brought up in America), one can see queer possibilities. For example, Kothi-Panthi queerness in India/South Asia. It is probably a good idea to pay attention to it when generalizing queerness given how big India/South Asia’s (queer) population is. There are very many similar forms of queerness in other parts of Global South. In many cultures, sexuality doesn’t inform identity but sexual preference does.

[ Aside: Kothi-Panthi model of queerness

This model doesn’t work for whole of India – region (India is so big and heavily populated - different sexual cultures and practices); linguistics (different terms in different region, same terms different meanings in different region, decline of Farsi (used in queer spaces in Delhi) and other queer argot/cant and their replacement with American English internet slang); class & caste (LGBTQIA+ being self-identification of mostly urban/rurban, upper class, English educated v/self- identification common among the sex workers, working class and other lower classes in rural as well as urban spaces who are excluded from consumerist queerness);

NGOfication of queer movement & action; global queering and neoliberal take over leading to americanization –– intermixing & “gay” (and other terms) being used differently by different classes.]

How do they determine who will be archetype seme/uke?

P’AbsoluteBL points to narrative roles - who is “after” the relationship more, and then goes onto claim “the heroine is the main character, the love interest is her love interest. It’s decided for them because it’s a romance novel.” I don’t know if this helps explaining either seme/uke/riba archetypes in BL or pursued/pursuer. Aren’t there romances where hero pursues heroine and the other way around? Aren’t there romances where both party pursue each other?

Even if we assume that androphilic female audience is projecting the sexual mores & expectations imposed on them onto male characters, then by the very act aren’t they subverting those expectations.

How do they determine who tops?

P’AbsoluteBL provides the following schema:

seme = active pursuer

since active pursuer is “the male role”

he should do the penetrating

which has to be done

P’AbsoluteBL also gives a term for this association: heterosexual dysmorphia - "the idea that any couple must fit into predetermined binary gender roles". This is probably coming from a place of ignorance since the example given is confined to musings about sexism concerning the upper class in Global North. Also, at least in the ambit of Kothi-Panthi sexuality, fitting into masculine top-feminine bottom dynamic doesn’t place them into any predetermined binary gender roles. Instead, it only places them in the fluid space of multi-genders: can/are seamlessly float(ing) between being kinnar/hijra/ali and being “cis-men”.

If one is to ask the question: “Which one of you is The Girl?” to a kothi-panthi couple, the kothi would tell you without hesitation: “I am The Girl.” Might even asked you in turn, “Couldn’t you tell?”

Kothi [is the word used by] effeminate men who desire to be penetrated by "real" men whom they call ‘panthi’.

Queer Movements by Paromita Chakravarti & Aniruddha Dutta

Seme/uke/riba archetypes are imbibed with different traits and different spin on personalities that a seasoned BL sommelier might be able to spot easily but would confuse those who are less familiar with all that the genre has to offer. The following excerpt from an analysis by @ranchthoughts reflects the most popular idea about seme/uke dynamics.

Most BL shows can be read through a lens of seme/uke dynamics, which originated in yaoi. The seme is the “pursuer” character and the uke is the “pursued”. There are certain physical (height, skin colour, etc.), social (age, wealth, social capital, etc.), and personality (active vs. passive, extroverted vs. introverted, flirtier vs. shyer) markers which are typically associated with either the seme or the uke. For example, semes tend to be taller, wealthier, older, flirtier, tanner, more active, and have a higher social status, while ukes tend to be shorter, poorer, younger, shyer, paler, and have a lower social status. “Seme” and “uke” roles are also sometimes conflated with masculinity and femininity (semes are “masculine” and ukes are “feminine”) and sexual preferences (semes are dominant and tops and ukes are submissive and bottoms). There are also tropes associated with either the seme or the uke, like ukes typically give cheek kisses and semes forehead kisses. Thus, things like height, age, wealth, personality, presumed sexual preference, and the role they take in tropes can index the character’s status as a seme or a uke, and in turn the character’s identity as a seme or uke in the narrative (pursuer vs. pursued) indexes a character’s personality, sexual preferences, etc., however unrealistic and simplistic that is in real life. In a BL, we would expect the seme (pursuer) and uke (pursued) characters to exhibit most, if not all, of the associated seme or uke traits and roles in tropes, though this is not always true (and some BLs have little to no seme/uke dynamics at all).

There are two interesting things about such an understanding of seme/uke dynamics:

It closely resembles nenja/wakashu dynamics (and its cousins) in the customary and mostly age-stratified androphilia in pre-modern Japan.

Live action BL, at least the ones that were current and popular, stuck mainly to a single type of dynamic: pairing of one seme of a particular kind (スパダリ – super darling) with one uke of a particular kind (ヘタレ – milquetoast). There are barely any riba couple. It is painting picture of BL in monochromes. So much so that Bad Buddy and My School President were seen as some path breaking feat and a break away from “yaoi” tropes by live action audience, rather than seeing them having just another (or less familiar) set of yaoi / BL tropes.

What P’AbsoluteBL identifies as “heterosexual dysmorphia” in “yaoi” is basically what BL inherited from Japan’s pre-modern androphilia including “femininity” in uke from chiago, wakashu and androgynous Kabuki actors and (hyper)masculinity in seme from nenja and others who enacted “the male role”. BL did not passively receive any of these. And for moe, artists and audience alike, subverted it all.

This is true for all tropes that are attributed to seme/uke.

Height difference – Earliest BLs had petite bishonen pairings. Yaoi introduced height differences – all of them: tall seme x short uke short seme x tall uke (this is probably the most sexualized height difference) tall seme x tall uke (with little to no difference) both/all short riba CP/ship both/all tall riba CP/ship tall riba x short riba short riba x tall riba

Cuteness – Used to establish how irresistible a character (seme/uke/riba) is irrespective of their attitudes and behavior are. Oft part of seme’s seduction tactic, especially when uke has a weakness for cute things. Even when cuteness is not one of the seme’s attributes, it is invoked either actively by serving kawai in speech or through actions including cosplay; or passively like in the following example where a typical super darling seme, Asami Ryuichi from Finder unintentionally triggers moe in Takaba Akihito (his uke) by cuddling a baby.

Uke’s cuteness is exploited to establish a sou uke (an uke every other character turns seme for) or subvert the same like in No Money where one of the epitomes of bishonen cuteness, Ayase (uke), who manages to enthrall others however isn’t a sou uke as one might expect and thus subverts the wakashu trope. Moreover, Kanou (seme) wasn’t initially drawn to Ayase due to his cuteness but due to Ayase’s kindness that lifted him out of the abyss of despair, when Kanou was at his weakest.

3. Bulk – BL have main characters (seme/uke/riba) with varying bulk and body types. There is far less diversity when it comes to Live Action BL.

4. Blushing maiden/virginal innocent trope – applies to all sorts of BL characters.

Edit: Conclusion

1. Surprisingly, ethnocentrism and loud echo of colonial masculinity in particular seem to permeate the discourse surrounding BL.

2. I really wish live action BL would have as much diversity as other BL media. Why is it so slow to diversify? Is it because of business interests? Is sticking to super darling X milquetoast pairing with royal road progression a sensible business decision? Or is sexism promoting wrong impressions of what audience want?

3. How come the Japanese terms "seme" & "uke" are used a lot but not "riba"? Where did live action BL audience learn these terms?

***

Yaoi = [how P'AbsoluteBL uses it] synonym for ボーイズラブ (boys love) manga.

= [popular use in anglophone BL manga fandom] BL manga with explicit content; as opposed to shonen ai.

= [original meaning] derivative works, which were mostly plot-what-plot type, that are self-published (doujinshi)

Answer to a question posted above: Gilbert Cocteau – uke in Song of the Wind and Trees

Below is the seme: Serge Battour

from Song of the Wind and Trees

Earliest BL manga had very pretty seme/uke/riba characters (if we are to call them so) and were not too preoccupied with "manliness" or a single type of "masculinity". But, they were surely obsessed with bishonen.

[1] 互攻 is also used to indicate POV switching between gong and shou in fiction.

[2] 纯爱 is also used to indicates asexual androphilia.

CP/pairing - involves 2 characters. Ship - involves 2 or more characters.

Inviting @waitmyturtles and @lurkingshan to share your thoughts if any (since I have noticed you guys use the terms "seme" & "uke" as well). Hope you guys don't mind the mention.

#japanese bl #boys love #bl history #thai bl #chinese bl #danmei #bl trivia #bl tropes #seme/uke #seme #uke #riba #korean bl #taiwanese bl

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poppletonink · 4 months

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The Marauders Fandom and How It Has Changed The State of Fandom Culture

The Marauders Fandom defies the natural state of fandom culture. Within the realm of the spiderweb of links, clicks and likes, fandoms have been born, have been nurtured and have been destroyed. Typically these fandoms follow a particular mould: by focusing on canon events, characters, and relationships between said characters, more art, writing and wonder is born. However, the Marauders fandom is unlike any of its predecessors or any fandoms being born today. Though its characters were once residents of the world of Harry Potter, in the eyes of the fans they are no longer bound to the confines of their original character archetypes (and their minimal development) as provided by writer J.K. Rowling. The internet has created a fandom renaissance - a rebirth of the characters who were originally solely there as ancestors and side characters to the so-called Golden Trio.

With this rebirth comes a subversion of what people think they know. James Potter (the father of Harry Potter) and his friends are no longer the distant memories of a forlorn, mistreated young boy. Through headcanons, fanfiction, edits, and fanart, and the "fanon" versions of these characters, they are given substance, personalities and backstories much richer than those that were scrawled into the pages of the Harry Potter series. From All The Young Dudes by MsKingBean89 (the most-read fanfiction on Archive Of Our Own) to Crimson Rivers by bizarrestars, formerly known as zeppazariel, these characters are given new life.

A queer utopia - perhaps that is the best way to describe and define this fandom. As it has settled into its cozy corner of the web, the fandom has become more bold and outlandish in their ideas. Debates have run riot over romantic pairings and sexual orientations projected onto any and all characters clawed into the cast that is beloved by this ever-growing group of people. Is Remus Lupin "as gay as the day is long" (as he was described in the original print of Casey McQuiston's Red White and Royal Blue) or is he a bisexual man (as unfortunately rare as they are in the literary world)? That is just one of the many questions thrown around from tongue to tongue, from text to text, in this fandom. The importance of queer representation has been established again and again in our modern world, but it has existed and prevailed within the world of the Marauders Fandom.

The pairings in this fandom range from canon, sensible and strongly backed up with evidence from the original books (like James Potter and Lily Evans), to wild, wacky and completely obscure (like James Potter and Regulus Black). However, the fandom has decided to take their own route, no longer caring what words the creator Rowling has to say about her characters. On numerous occasions, J.K. Rowling has stated that Sirius Black and Remus Lupin do not have romantic feelings for each other, and yet 'Wolfstar', as they are so-lovingly nicknamed, is one of the biggest ships in fandom history. Alongside this, after the proclamations of Rowling's transphobic views mid-2020, the fandom took a stand declaring many of the characters (especially Regulus Black) to be transgender in their eyes. Through this, the Marauders Fandom has made these characters even more relatable for those who read about them. Even more notably, they have used these characters to take a political stand - to make it clear that we must stand up for those in our society who are shoved aside and discriminated against.

Fandom culture is taking art and making it into something even more beautiful, making it something that people relate to and adore even more than they did before. While the art originally belongs to the person who creates it, once it is put out into the world it becomes open to interpretation. People project onto songs, onto books, onto art and it helps them to escape the trials and tribulations they face within their realities. After all, isn't that what entertainment is truly made as - an escape? As a result of the Marauders Fandom, we can look towards a future where fandom is no longer defined by its canon, where it becomes a group of people who love something and share creative ideas together. As a result of the Marauders Fandom, fans have the ability and the opportunity to have a sense of more artistic expression, which ultimately leads to more media and literature for us to enjoy. The Marauders Fandom is a fundamental and quintessential part of fandom history - it is a story of its own, born and bred of minuscule threads and mere sentences about interweaving characters. It shows just how we as people are powerhouses of creativity and that, as is said in Dead Poet's Society (1989): "poetry, beauty, romance, love - these are what we stay alive for".

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markrosewater · 5 months

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Hey Maro, Caverns of Ixalan had lived up to the hype returning to an amazing world. I’ve really enjoyed the limited of this set so far.

Sometimes I find myself forcing a certain archetype in a set and it gets old kind of fast but this set has felt balanced and definitely better than average

High fives to the team please…one quick question…Merfolk are UG in Ixalan while Merfolk in Lorwyn are UW.

Do you foresee tribes in Lorwyn sticking to their original color pairs when we return?

I can't talk specifically about the return to Lorwyn set yet, but I can say historically, we tend to stay pretty close to the colors of creature types on returns. We sometimes expand it a little, but usually stay true to the colors that existed before.

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the-sleep-paralysis-demon · 2 months

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Six Splits For Four New Character Prediction

Spoilers for Chapter 1 & 2 and Spilt into Threes below cut

@shygirl4991 @alianarepasa (Notice me senpai /j)

Alright so we know three of the six so far:

Producer (Insecurity and Need to be perfect)

Ringmaster (Ego and Imagination)

Artist (Creativity and Humor)

And we have a hint at our fourth with the final paragraph of Chapter 2

From this introduction we know a few things about them as a character.

They call SMG3 a “fair maiden” which shows us their perception of the pairs relationship.

Fair maiden is often used in fictional works to describe a woman that could be described as “perfect” so the use of fair maiden shows they see 3 in an incredibly positive way.

Fair maiden can also describe the damsel in distress archetype. This archetype represents a helpless character in need of saving by (usually) the hero archetype. In fairy tales, this hero is usually a prince or knight and a romantic interest.

Through some logical backtracking, if SMG3 (the damsel in distress) is saved by our fourth SMG4 split, then the forth split sees himself as the hero aka either a prince or a knight.

I believe that our fourth split is Prince4. My biggest piece of evidence comes from the art from the fic.

We have a sneak peek of this mysterious split. And there hat/crown has the letters “PR”, which can represent Prince, as every SMG4 split has letters on there hat representing there name (R for Ringmaster, A for Artist, PD for Producer)

Going back to the romance part of our analysis, we see a small peak of there outfit in the fanfics cover art

Not only does it show a knight like outfit, reaffirming the idea of him being a hero archetype, but he seems to be holding something in his teeth which I outlined below:

Going off of our previous assumption of being a romantic interest, we can safely assume that this is a rose.

Roses being held in ones teeth is a classic romantic move which further backs up not only the romantic side but also backs up his code name.

We can safely assume that Red Caine is Ringmaster (Has a cane and is a reference to Caine from TADC) and Purple Slab is Artist (Slab often is used to describe materials used in art). Since the colors all follow the SMG4 splits color schemes then we know that Prince4 (white) has to be White Roman.

But how does White Roman confirm the rose and vice verses? Historians believe the rose between the teeth originated from Ancient Greek and Rome. So in the code name Roman represents the rose in his teeth which represents the romance element of his personality.

My conclusion?

I predict the fourth SMG4 split is called Prince4 and represents Fours heroism and romantic feelings.

#Becoming sherlock homes over here #I’m still trying to figure out the last two #If I do I’m posting them #six splits for fours #split into threes #fanfiction #smg4 fanfic #smg34 fanfiction #predictions #analysis #writing analysis #smg34 #smg4 #smg3 #smg4 smg3

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pienhime · 6 months

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10 female vtubers who are popular with ryousangata and jirai girls!

Two important things to know before you read any further: I am NOT alleging any of these vtubers to be jirai kei. That'd be incredibly inappropriate for me to do, as I don't know any of them well enough to know if they are a part of the jirai kei subculture. I am simply listing vtubers who seem to be the most popular within the ryousanjirai crowd, that is those whose female fanbase seems to have a higher proportion of ryousanjirai girls than most.

The other thing I'd like to get out of the way is that some vtubers on this list are known for using "menhera" as an insult. Sadly, thats grown popular in the vtuber scene and online spaces in japan. For vtuber fans reading this who think that's a weird thing to say, the word "menhera" has been around since 2001 and was the name given to an internet subculture revolving around mental health safe spaces, awareness, and vent art. Even tho it was literally created to help erase the "mental illness makes you dangerous" thing, the stigma took over once the term went mainstream, so its often used to mean "yandere psycho". The subculture still exists if you know where to look, but barely ever uses the name it gave itself anymore because it attracts trolls, edgelords, and fetishists.

One last thing- a few of these girls fit the "loli" archetype, and consider it a part of their appeal, but no minors will be featured on this list.

absolutely zero past-life discussion

I'll do my best to summarize what the vtuber is known for and the reasons i think are likely why their female fanbase has a larger proportion of ryousanjirai girls.

1. Sakamata Chloe (Hololive HoloX)

Given that she recently got a new outfit that looks a lot like a dark girly kei coord, you've probably seen Chloe on your feed recently. Despite her yamikawaii punk-ish look, she's so cute and probably couldn't survive in the wild if she were a real orca. The "pon" is unreal. Her original songs talk about her own inner pain in a way that may be relatable to jirai girls, and she's covered a lot of songs popular with us too (such as Cute Loving and Devil Janai Mon). Between her cutesiness, choice in fashion, and her songs, it's easy to see why she's loved by jirai kei girls.

2. Minato Aqua (Hololive Gen. 2)

You probably know about Aqua if you follow me, since I just posted a link to one of her more recent song covers. It's one about a ryousangata girl falling in love with a host, and knowing his affection is fake but wanting it anyway. She covers a lot of songs about topics that are familiar to ryousan and jirai girls, like kyuukurarin, darling dance, goodbye declaration, and internet overdose to name a few. Her original songs are also hits with the ryousangata crowd, with "aqua iro palette" being the choice of song in so many tiktoks and reels of ryousan wotas showing off their lavish birthday celebrations for their oshis. She's also a cosplayer, frequently wearing maid outfits, making her relatable to a lot of girls who work at concept cafes. She also did a duet with Shion, a cover of "menhera janai mon", which is a song i often see misinterpreted outside of japan because of the need for cultural context on jirai kei, ryousangata, and menhera both as a subculture and insult. Should I do a post explaining the lyrics and overall themes?

3. Makaino Ririmu (Nijisanji Gamers Generation 3)

Listen. If you're in the jirai kei subculture, I guarantee you've seen Ririmu. This girl's fanart is probably on every jirai kei blog known to man. If you don't recognize this model, you'd recognize the maid outfit with bondage elements thats paired with a coat that looks suspiciously like REFLEM's bunny ears coat (the one that took yamikawa lovers by storm a while back). Ririmu's popularity with jirai kei girls isn't just because she likes similar fashions to most of us. Ririmu has been open about her past suffering with agorophobia, suicidal ideation, and being a NEET. She's shared bits and pieces of her recovery with her fans! Of course, she also does yandere bit that might be more than a bit, and covers a lot of songs popular with ryousan and jirai girls, like more kyun, chuupuri, and vampire.

4. Mikeneko (Indie)

Mikeneko isn't new to the scene at all, but has recently come out of a partly mental health related hiatus to a much larger following than before. Mikeneko collects models like they're pokemon cards, going thru four in total now, two of which have been in one year. She wears tons of yamikawa fashions, and plays up her chuunibyou for streams. Aside from her on-and-off NEETdom, Mikeneko is open about a lot of her health issues, including bipolar, and about her medication and trips to the psychiatric hospital. She calls herself menhera, often in the secondary meaning, but she's also rumored to have been a part of the actual subculture for a long time. Her original songs, drop and you&me ring really true for a lot of jirai and menhera girls such as myself.

5. Meloco Kyoran (Nijisanji EN Generation 7)

Meloco is the only vtuber on this list to be a part of an company's EN (english-speaking) branch. She's included on the list because she's also big in japan- because she's japanese. She's almost fluent in english and was accepted for the english branch, but frequently slips into japanese and appeals to her japanese fans. Her outfit is gothic lolita inspired with bondage elements and plenty of edge, to fit her overall spooky exorcist theming. Her creepy-cute nature and cool alternative onee-san demeanor have attracted her many jirai kei fans, and inspired a lot of ryousan girls' oshi nails.

6. Sukoya Kana (Nijisanji Tulip-gumi Unit)

Admittedly, Kana's probably got more menhera (as in the subculture) fans than jirai or ryousan, but she still has enough that I wanted to include her. Her nurse theming isn't just a gimmick, her actual "day job" is as a nurse. As in, when she's not streaming, she works in a hospital as staff after passing her qualifying exams in 2022! She must be super busy! Her morbid interests and fetishes, as well as her medical themed design, have no doubt appealed to many jirai girls too. Besides that, she's covered a lot of songs, including quite a few beloved by landmines such as lavie, nainai girls pride, and godish.

7. Natori Sana (Indie)

Listen, I just know you've seen her figures by now. Every menhera, yamikawaii, and "cutecore" account in the west has at least one of this nurse girl's figures. She's ultra cute, with a sickeningly sweet smile and design. Her lore is interesting- she claims to work at a sanitarium, but has hinted very heavily many times that she is in fact not a nurse, but a patient in denial. Whether this is just lore for fun and appeal or is a dramatized reflection of Sana's own feelings and mental health is up for speculation.

8. La+ (Laplus) Darkness (HoloX)

Remember that disclaimer regarding using menhera derogatorily earlier? Yeah that's 90% because of Laplus's inclusion on the list. It feels like she accuses someone of being menhera (derogatory) like every other VOD. Apart from that, Laplus is a grade A kusogaki, complete with constant angry outburst when things don't go her way. She's a demon whos intelligence was... "sealed away"... sure. Her gothic appearance and explosive personality seem to be what's gained her such a large jirai kei following.

9. Houshou Marine (Hololive Gen. 3)

Dear god. Alright, so you've definitely heard at least two of her songs if you're on japanese jirai kei SNS at all. This cosplaying pirate is so horny that it's literally considered her catchphrase. Her original songs about wanting to be seen as desirable and be... pleasured seem to be especially popular with landmine girls (which is maybe related to how many jirai girls are in a certain profession). She enjoys gothic lolita fashion, girls love/yuri, and enough fetishes to lose track of if you're counting.

10. Shigure Ui (Indie)

Did you really think I could make this list without including hololive star Oozora Subaru's mom and voice of the song that's plaguing japanese social media, ESPECIALLY landmine social media rn? Sure, it's everywhere, but go check every insta kaiwai dedicated to jirai subculture and see how many of their reels have this song. Even though she's just now broken out to this degree of fame, she's been around a while, and is the "mama" (artist) to several other vtubers. She often collabs with hololive members! She loves taboo fiction, which is also especially popular amongst jirai girls.

Last but not least, I want to add three honorable mentions from Hololive that are also popular with ryousanjirai girls. Tokoyami Towa is a super popular choice of cosplay amongst jirai girls specifically. She has a cute-but-cool look, and lots of her outfits definitely have subcultural influences from japanese ゴスパンク (gothic x punk) and general "egirl"-type styles. Murasaki Shion is a very popular choice of profile pic for ryousanjirai girls, and it's easy to see why. Her "kusogaki" appeal and lolita outfits, as well as her "Menhera Janai Mon" duet with Aqua all appeal to that demographic. Finally, last honorable mention is Amane Kanata, purely because of how popular she is with lovers of Tenshi Kaiwai, which has a lot of overlap with the jirai subculture. She basically predicted the trend before the magazine that popularized it even existed. Mizuiro x white cybercore outfits, a nurse cosplay, and angel theming make her a spot-on icon in that scene.

That's it! Now I have to stop procrastinating on the pien kei characters post...

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unexpectedgeese · 1 year

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I’ve been thinking about how ORV is like, 100% made to help teenagers like KDJ cope with the Horrors. The prose, the tropes in the beginning, the length of it, the themes– All of it!

Those first three are simple, and I already lost a draft of this to the Tumblr gods, so I’ll keep it quick.

PROSE: as @kimdokja pointed out in a post a while back, ORV sits firmly at the reading level of your average high schooler. This is intentional; It’s a story for those highschoolers, so it stays simple so it doesn’t alienate anyone.

TROPES: I’m pretty sure someone’s already talked about how ORV sets the stage up in the beginning so it can subvert itself later– that’s not what I’m here to say. I’m here to point out how ORV HARDCORE presents itself as a power fantasy. In the beginning, Kim Dokja’s the archetypal power fantasy self-insert character. He’s got a purposefully vague appearance, a cold and ruthless demeanor in the early scenarios (don’t say otherwise, I’ve SEEN the comments on the webtoon), and the world’s most overpowered cheat of knowing everything ever.

The length, too, plays a big part in this. By giving us 500-some odd chapters of story, Sing-Shong is letting the reader engage with ORV’s themes over time, cloaking them in Cool Scenes to make the experience fun as well as helpful– and they’re giving their audience an escape from the real world, which!! Is both what KDJ had in WoS, and!!! When paired with the book’s later conclusion of ��books great, but real world also great’, is a really gentle way of getting the audience to not Kim Dokja themselves into inexistance!

The Prose, the Tropes, and the Length are all the ‘how’ of it: ORV uses them to attract their target audience and keep that audience engaged.

But… What’s that? It’s the Themes, coming in wiTH A STEEL CHAIR?!?!??!

That’s right! The themes of ORV. We’ve talked about these a LOT in the ORV community. But today, I have a different thesis on them:

*Almost every single one of ORV’s themes is hand-tailored to help struggling teenagers.*

(read more, bc this post boutta be LONG.)

If you try, you can point out a lot of examples of this!

The idea of people being able to do bad things without being a bad person, for example, is something I personally really needed to hear when I was younger. And KDJ’s character development from being this closed off non-character to letting down his walls, making friends, and giving a shit about his own life is a really strong argument for the reader doing the same, made all the stronger by its focus on what was originally an emotionless self-insert for the reader. The importance of reaching out across boundaries is a big argument for asking people for help/making friends, etc. etc– I could do this all day.

But my favorite example of this is KDJ’s relationship with WoS. Because it manages to stress the importance of livin through more than just stories without, in any way, vilifying the readers who use them to cope, by portraying stories as both important (you can understand things from new angles, feel new things, cope with reality) and ultimately limiting (you can’t understand someone fully from just reading about them, in order to be loved you need to be seen, reading together > reading alone, KDJ taking down his walls, etc.).

And it’s just like… MAN. This really is a story written for just that one reader (you)...

#orv #omniscient reader's viewpoint #hope this makes sense..#and that nobody's already made this post #my posts #i could talk abt this soo much more too

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absolutebl · 7 months

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This Week in BL - all these kisses Korea, are you feeling okay?

Entirely subjective yadda yadda. Organized sorta by favs in each category.

Sept 2023 Wk 2

Ongoing Series - Thai

I Feel You Linger in the Air (Fri grey) ep 5 of 12 - I did think the sketch was done AFTER they’d become lovers. Meanwhile, I do enjoy the creepy slipping through time moments, adds nicely to the tension. I’m sublimely uninterested in all the hets but that's normal for me. Bit of a slow episode, but I'm looking forward to next week.

Dangerous Romance (Fri YT) ep 5 of 12 - Cohabitation trope activated. Also "lovable grandma" is a new BL archetype I can get behind. Honestly PerthChimon's dynamic is good, it’s fun to watch a Thai BL where the leads are actually both stellar actors. There’s no stilted awkwardness to their dialogue back & forth or other interactions. I also like having MarcPuwin back on my screen. NO DAMN SINGING. Finally a fun twist on the faen fatale.

Hidden Agenda (Sun YT) ep 10 of 12 - I like that we’re seeing actual realistic consequences of coming out. Not the big parental freak out, but the small nasties of opening up as an everyday queer. This is rare in BL.

Naughty Babe (Sat YT) ep 3 of 8 - Lap sitting, lots of kissing, one arm counter lift - thank you, boys. Stupid tiny dog (not a euphemism). Is it just me or does Max look extra pretty these days? Anygay, it’s all quite silly and I'm mildly enjoying it.

Be Mine Super Star (Mon Viki) ep 11 of 12 - I remain enamored of Big Daddy & the Hot Doc but nothing else.

Venus in the Sky (Tues iQIYI) 3 of 10 eps - Their history and the consequences of the confession to their friendship all seems a little sad & cruel. But also it’s just this pulp, ya know?

(10 points to the True Geek who gets that reference.)

Only Friends (Sat YT) ep 6 of 10 - I want Mew’s moms’ story as a GL. (Not from this team, of course.) Ah even Sand can be a lying creep, best not to like anyone in this show... frankly, best just not to like this show. And ya know what, I'm pretty sure I really don't.

Could I make something clear? You can’t "steal a lover from someone." That's puerile thinking. That lover wants to go. It’s the lover’s fault (if anyone) not the one who stole that lover, no matter how much an asshole Top is. Sand’s ex is at fault, not Top. And screw Sand for thinking that way. Like his ex wasn't a whole person in their own right capable of making decisions?

My Universe (Sun iQIYI) ep 3-4 Marry Go Round of 24 eps - The premise of this is dumb. The pair is fun. They still kiss great. The actors are good. Crap story. What can you do? Don’t watch it. 5/10

I need to rewatch Destiny Seeker now.

Love in Translation (Sat iQIYI) ep 5 of 10 - Omg. Too stupid to live. Why am I still watching this? How many more? Ugh.

Ongoing Series - Not Thai

Why R U? (Korea Wed iQIYI) eps 7-8fin - SaifahZon (no matter what country) are probably the softest enemies to lovers ever put on screen. Yes they are very cute and I like them better than the original. However, no one can out do ZeeSaint for the count down kiss on the rooftop. All in all, I enjoyed the final 2 eps, very cute. I liked this BL a lot but I’d love to know what somebody thought who hadn’t seen the original.

Ultimately, what can I say about Why R U? Korea?

Korea decided to remake, of all possible Thai BLs, Why RU? And that is exactly what we got: a short form, clean & pretty, uneven chemistry, slightly confusing, all the same tropes KBL that kind of cliff-noted the original but with none of the heat or complex relationship dynamics. I just … what world is this? Because it is BOTH bizarro land, and EXACTLY what I expected. How do I rate something like that? In the end I have to go back to simple questions: did I like it, would I rewatch it, and would I recommend it? Yes. Probably. And probably not. What the actual hell reality? 8/10

You Are Mine (Taiwan Fri Gaga) eps 1-2 of 10 - Office romance, broken-grumpy + innocent-sunshine. (Also cutie devil meets angel bestie hotties.) Gotta say, Taiwan is awfully good at moments of recognition. I sense some whipping boy and obsession incoming, looks good on you, Taiwan. Do I like it? Of course I like it!

Kisseki: Dear to Me (Taiwan Tues Viki & iQIYI) ep 5 of 13(?) - Taiwan never met a trope it didn’t wanna play with. Teacher student + secret relationship, there’s only one bed but they slept together on the floor anyway... it’s a trope gum ball machine. I'm not mad, a bit confused, but who cares.

My Personal Weatherman AKA Taikan Yoho (Japan Sat Gaga) ep 5 of 8 - Uh-oh baby is sad. Yo is such a drama queen - I respect that in a boy. Also, I love it that W took it as and excuse to play Real Boyfriends. Also leaning v obsessive stalker there Japan. As expected you had to go there. Carry on, you do (and track on your creep app) you.

Minato's Laundromat Season 2 AKA Minato Shouji Coin Laundry Season 2 (Japan Thu Gaga) ep 11 of 12 - Ugh. I kind of enjoyed seeing Minato in pain and having to work for the relationship for a change. But that’s just because I’m so frustrated with his character this season and I want him to SUFFER. Sides are cute tho. I like them better this season.

It's Airing But...

Crazy Handsome Rich (Sun Gaga) ep 3 of 10 - I just can’t. The sound. DNF

Bump Up Business AKA Bump Up Project (Korea movie) original cinema release was 9/15 but MDL indicates it's been moved to October so I'll shift my dates. Last status update. Love story between a trainee who is about to debut and a celebrity from the same agency (based on a webtoon). Kpop boy group OnlyOneOf signed on to star. They’ve been auditioning for this since Libido IMHO. You can watch me chronicle their BL MV series in this post. It’s from Idol Romance who will do sad but can do good kisses (Wish You, Nobleman Ryu, Once Again, Kissable Lips, Poongduck 304, Tasty Florida, Tinted With You).

In case you missed it?

What Did You Eat Yesterday? is now available on Gaga. If you enjoyed Our Dining Table, you will enjoy this.

I did a quick analysis of 2 different acting styles based on these 2 boys here.

Boyband, I finally watched the 6 eps that are available. It aired earlier this year and was hard to find. For good reason it turns out. Yes it’s about a Thai boyband so I skipped all the singing bits. I like the actor playing Juju (Brothers). Also hi Art, are you actually ageless? Lots of other familiar faces popped up like Copter, Max, Fluke. It actually started as a solid little story (if not much of a romance). The stuff with the organizers was v boring and there were 2 het sides but the rest of it was palatable. Operative word being was. Something happened around ep 3, like they lost funding as well as distribution and it just... fizzled. No real ending, no character dev, no story resolution, just blank. It’s like it DNF’d itself. 3/10 I don’t know what I just watched and neither does it.

Next Week Looks Like This:

Still To Come In September

9/26 I Cannot Reach You AKA I Can't Reach You AKA Kimi ni wa Todokanai (Japan ????) - Adapted from the manga, childhood best friends: The cool, smart one who’s good at everything, and his average, dorky friend who struggles. Always by the other’s side, but not together in the way they truly want to be. No matter how hard they try, their hearts cannot reach each other.

9/27 Absolute Zero (Thai iQIYI) - from 2021, Studio Wabi Sabi and New Siwaj finally bring us this “time loop to prevent tragedy” romance. We don’t always get HEAs from them, so I'm on my guard.

9/27 Bon Appetit (Korea iQIYI) - from 2022, 8 eps from GoGo Studio, romance between an office worker who lives off junk food and the man next door who cooks well.

9/? Mr Cinderella 2 (Vietnam YouTube?) - it's Vietnam so your guess is as good as mine.

2023 forthcoming BL master post (see comments, some are inaccurate, NOT KEPT UPDATED).

THIS WEEK’S BEST MOMENTS

Just look at the PRETTY! His makeup is flawless this series. I don't know who GMMTV hired new for makeup recently, but this ain't Thai style, this genius trained at the feet of Korea's finest. You keep that bitch (hon. gender nu) around, GMMTV, ya hear? (Hidden Agenda)

Gah, I love Yai so much. He tries so hard. He's such a sweet earnest character. He's like the angel-baby opposite of Chan (devil-baby) but they both my 2023 babies. (I Feel You Linger in the Air)

You know I love it when a BL gets meta about tropes. Here's Why R U?K calling out enemies to lovers.

Kabedon!

Yes we like all the snacks, thank you Korea. Your BL is basically snack food anyway. I'm not mad about it.

SWITCHES! I love it when we get this kinda thing. (All Why R U? Korea)

It me in all horror movies and whenever a boy starts to sing in a BL. (Venus in the Sky)

(Last week)

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trainsinanime · 9 months

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One thing I want to say briefly about Hi-Fi Rush: It's deceptively well written. You don't expect it, but it sneaks up on you.

The game looks like a (very high end) cartoon and has a very self-aware sense of humour, and the story is certainly very cartoonish, larger than life, but straightforward and mostly pretty much what you expect. The characters in it are likewise larger than life, and all fairly well trodden archetypes that we've seen before. But they manage to make it not feel like that.

Peppermint is my favorite example of that. We've all seen so, so, so many stories where we have a man who is an overconfident dumbass and also our protagonist (here he's called Chai), paired with a woman who is competent, knows the plot, and is so done with his antics. And these two start out just the same.

But the game manages to balance it really well. Most of the time you either wonder why the girl in question just doesn't do the job herself, or why she gets sidelined by the plot, or both. But here they do a good job of establishing her as competent, a leader character, not bad in a fight, but not as good a fighter as him (and she doesn't want to be either). It helps a lot that you can summon her and the other side characters briefly in battle and for various platforming challenges, so they all are always around and in our minds, and it really does feel like we're solving things together.

It also helps that (spoilers!) there is no romance between the two. Their relationship has been described by many as sibling-like, and that works really well. They're best friends, and they're often performatively exhausted with each other, but they'd move heaven and earth for each other. I feel like giving them a romantic relationship would have downplayed this bond a bit.

The development over the course of the game also feels nice and organic, with Chai, our hero, becoming more aware of his own limitations and far more cordial to his friends, while they all warm up to him. It means that when he does a big power of friendship thing at the end, it really works. None of them are original, but they're all so well written in the details that it doesn't matter.

Anyway, good game, go play it. I won't do a train review, though; I barely remember how the code for trainsingames.com works anymore at this point (even though I wrote it myself), and there's so much stuff I'd need to fix and change first, and the short train section here is absolutely not worth that effort.

#hi fi rush #hi-fi rush

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sisaloofafump · 6 months

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Marvel creates teams, DC creates characters.

Disclaimer: this is a gross over simplification and greatly limited to the comics that I have read. I can think of dozens of examples that do not fit these observations, but it's what I've been noticing as I (an X-Men kid) fell deep into DC over the past many months. TLDR at the end.

Marvel is incredible at writing teams. Look at how well balanced their x-men adjacent stories are—both within the individual groups and within mutantdom as a whole—and compare that to the absolute mess of the JLA or any of DC’s crossover groups above 2 members.

But, DC knows how to write individuals and (when they’re small) their support networks. Where as Marvel, with the exception of Peter Parker, consistently falls flat and struggles to write compelling individual arcs that don’t rely on external characters or world events.

So much of this has to do with how the franchises were created in the first place.

The JLA is a an awkward mismatch of individually created characters and franchises whose only justifications for working together can be massive multiverse-ending events. This leads to a never ending slew of crossover stories where each issue is 70% dense exposition of stakes that are too high to matter and 10% visually discordant fight scenes. The remaining 20% is split between the characters that bring in the readers (Superman and Batman) and the characters without a solo run—leaving all others as background fodder. The villains are only repeats of an individual franchises. There are no JLA-specific villains (aside from bland cosmic entities) because the JLA is not a team, it is a crossover.

Marvel, whose franchises centre on teams rather than individuals, can have a group (be they the Fantastic Four or the X-Force) focus on meaningful, local, character-driven stories. However, take a character out of their designated group and now you have one fifth of a whole acting as another team’s third wheel. Only long-time, well established characters (currently: Emma Frost), or those created as a solo adventurer (Deadpool), can break the mold. Ironically, I feel the Marvel Cinematic Universe betrayed the strength that Marvel’s comics have—by setting up each post-Civil War (and arguably earlier) Avenger as their own franchise it lost the balance of a team and became instead a crossover.

A point in DC crossovers’ favour, however, is that because all the world-changing events only happen when every major player is involved, they hit the whole world equally. Inner-franchise climaxes don’t become large enough that they should disrupt others. It’s believable (somewhat) that each hero family stays in their own city—a major event to Green Arrow isn’t effecting the Amazons, and vice versa. In contrast, because the groups in Marvel get so big, their problems and scope can get even larger. What happens in one stream (say, the mutants terraforming Mars) should have massive effects on everyone, but it rarely does. (To be fair, I think Marvel has been doing an overall good job at balancing this recently).

The individual based module also works great for minor crossovers. But, this only works so long as the pairing stays small—Superman and Batman can have many team ups against new and original villains, whereas mutant/Avenger duos rarely happen and when they do, they stay firmly within their established franchises' concerns. Again though, these pair ups only work when they're small: compare World’s Finest issues that focus just on Superman, Batman, and Robin, with chaotic ones that cameo the whole JLA.

This isn't to say the individual method treats characters better, in fact, it often makes it worse. Lead characters must stay stagnant, their circumstances and relationships never changing. Side characters must fit their original archetypal role and purpose—if not, they're erased (adult Lana Lang), put in limbo (Tim Drake), or added to an ever increasing support team for a franchise not written for teams (basically everyone). When the X-Men needs novelty, they can just rearrange the roster. If a character no longer fits, they can join another subgroup or (albeit rarely and awkwardly) join another franchise's team (just look at Kitty Pryde's whole history). DC will never let Jason Todd escape Batman's shadow, because he was only ever built to orbit him.

Their treatment of the characters over the course of decades however, is different than its individual stories, and I would much rather pick up one of DC's short side character features than Marvel's. Within a short timeframe, the dynamics switch. Aside from when they're introducing a new mini-franchise, Marvel's short solos often work to push the plot of an adjacent team and the characters are reduced to pieces in a grander puzzle. DC's short solos in contrast exist to spotlight characters, allowing the autonomy and uniqueness that they may loose in the long run.

I don't know which I prefer. I'd love to see the writers/editors of Marvel take over DC for a few years, and vice versa. Might solve some problems.

TLDR: Marvel’s franchises are centred on large teams, and DC’s are on individuals. These both have their strengths and downfalls when it comes to crossovers.

When it comes to teams: The Justice League is a crossover group of individuals, not a team, only focusing on world-ending stories with no room for character arcs. But, the characters have a lot more mobility for small team-ups, and the world feels more cohesive. In comparison, Marvel’s teams are true, well balanced teams. But take a character out of a team, or do small scale crossovers, and they float awkwardly under developed. As large events and characters stay locked in their group franchises, Marvel as a whole feels split into disconnected parts.

When it comes to characters: DC allows for more short term solos but very limited long-term mobility, whereas Marvel characters aren't as stuck in archetypes, but short solos focus on contributing to grander plots rather than fleshing out niche characters.

#is this is missing a lot of nuance? absolutely #do I have a better overarching understanding of DC than Marvel? 100%#but this is me trying to formulate my thoughts from the past half year #dc comics #marvel comics #marvel #batman #Justice league #xmen #rambles

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carica-ficus · 4 months

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Review: "Gideon the Ninth"

Author: Tamsyn Muir

Date: 03/12/2023

Rating: ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

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I'm going to be honest, I completely forgot I had to write a review for this book, which is weird for me because, first and foremost, I love writing reviews for the books I read and, second, I love writing reviews for the books I loved. But I found myself at a stalemate with this one, mostly because I'm not sure what to say. There's a lot of things to appreciate in "Gideon the Ninth", and I'm a little intimidated by the fact I have to try and do them justice in this short text. Still, I'm going to try.

"Gideon the Ninth" follows the story of a necromancer, Harrowhark Nonagesimus, and her cavalier, Gideon Nav, as they embark on a journey to the First House where Harrow has to find a way to ascend to Lyctorhood (which is something like becoming necromancer supreme). Of course, they're not the only ones who partake in the assignment - they are joined by the representatives of the other seven houses who are there for the same goal. Harrow and Gideon are forced to find the answer, while at the same time trying to best the others at the same game. They soon find out that a lot more is at stake than they originally thought, and the tension only grows as all of them realize they are also being hunted by someone or something.

The book starts off relatively slow, with a very long introduction which spaces off into multiple chapters. A gradual beginning might not interest every reader, but it proves crucial for this story. Muir carefully constructs the basis for her novel, at first offering little insight to all the numerous characters. By choosing Gideon as her narrator for the book - a character who is genuinely confused by the setting and isn't interested in dull formalities - Muir manages to portray everything in a very laic manner. Hence, the reader learns about the world and its characters at the same pace as the lead.

Furthermore, this also allows the reader to develop a strong connection with Gideon, whose laid back, facetious personality offers a lot of room for the reader to relate to her. She presents a stark contrast to Harrow, a focused and stubborn necromancer, which Muir consequently uses to create an interesting and exciting dynamic between them. Their relationship is a perfect blend of planned versus impulsive, where Harrow will act out of intelligence, and Gideon out of curiosity or instinct.

Characters are definitely Muir's specialty, and it is evident on her writing how much time and effort she puts into them. Even though all the side characters are also necromancers accompanied by their cavaliers, every pair offers a different dynamic. Moreover, every pair comes from a different planet, so their personalities, behavior and gestures directly add onto the worldbuilding in a way which is not forced, but still informative enough. On the other hand, sometimes the characters felt a little too over the top, feeling like a projection of an archetype, rather than lifelike peple. But I digress, in this specific novel it is more of an advantage, than a drawback.

The story structure is not revolutionary, nor is the idea behind it, but it is presented in an interesting and refreshing way. Similarly, there are a few cliché moments, especially between Gideon and Harrow, but they are incredibly well written, so they don't feel lax. Instead, they offer an exciting and emotional scene which only benefits from the use of a popular trope. Muir has an astounding ability to present something that has already been seen in a new light, which gives "Gideon the Ninth" a nostalgic and familiar note, without making it too analogous to other works of fiction.

High stakes, tension, and action definitely don't lack in this book. Even though the beginning is somewhat timid, the growing build up of mystery manages to completely overthrow the initial dreariness. There's quite a few well thought-out fight scenes, layered with striking moves and exciting moments. The very end of the book features an extensive, flashy final fight that spreads out onto dozens of pages. Needless to say, it is a perfect finish for such an thrilling novel and won't leave any reader unmoved.

I had very high expectations from "Gideon the Ninth" and I must say, it didn't disappoint. What's more, this is one of my absolutely favorite books I read throughout 2023. It offers so much, from an interesting story to a riveting resolution, but its gorgeous, compelling and engaging characters are undeniably its greatest asset. I warmly recommend it to anyone looking for an unforgettable sci-fi story packed with action and peppered with good, honest humor.

#gideon the ninth #the locked tomb #locked tomb #tamsyn muir #harrowhark nonagesimus #gideon nav #review #reading #book #knjiga #moja recenzija #recenzija #čitanje #book review #2023 #rc2023

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esther-dot · 7 months

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I'm the 2011/2013 Tumblr anon, and this is kind of embarrassing to admit but I'm also the original Dune anon, if that gives you any idea of my fandom background. (*/ω＼*) I've been in fandom since I was probably eleven or twelve, so fandom is basically home to me lol. I was always more of a sci-fi fan than a fantasy fan growing up, and so it wasn't until GOT I heard of the books; I'd never been a fan of the show, and I was impartial at best to the books. (At school, I knew classmates were reading them--- but for full context, I was a nerd disliked by other nerds for being too weird, so I wanted nothing to do with Tolkien/GRRM lol). I still have a bone to pick with GRRM (and this is partly what limits my participation) and in the case of my regular fandom, I'm very much used to isolation lol. (It's alt-right trolls who have a problem with me... sigh. Imagine a ship like Jonsa which redeems the books' thematic ideas and that's my situation).

I actually was familiar with the Sansa/Sandor ship long before I was interested in either media, because of the shipping circles I run in. Going from that lack of context to the context revealed in the actual books was very weird, because they seem like extremely disparate concepts. If you take Sansa/Sandor scenes and rearrange things, including the numbers in Sansa's age, it does feel like a powerfully violent BatB rendering with a dash of medieval pseudorealism; he's no prince and the romance is impossible, but perhaps he could be her knight or guardian in an unconsummated chaste romance or secret affair etc. It made me really rethink some of the ships I was interested in, and why, and where my tastes diverged from people I usually trusted. I am much less interested in ship archetypes by themselves than how those are enshrined in the narrative/themes at stake. It's also just interesting to me that Jonsa is an arguably truer, redeeming rendering of BatB, or a revisitation of that theme--- which GRRM is interested in, Sansa/Sandor fans are correct about that, but I think it's foreshadowing a future arc for her. Surely all the BatB exploration is being set up for something big?

So how did I find Jonsa.... well, it was a consequence of reading the books lol, though I imagine many people would say the show was illuminating (which is no condemnation that antis think it is). My interest in the books was primarily piqued through the show's ending--- I came to things rather late, but I'm thankful for that, considering that it seems like some of the best fandom discourse has taken place since then. I was mostly interested in it for the purposes of comparison of adaptation, which I find very interesting, and because I find predicting endgames in general very fun albeit painful. I watch a lot of things just to see what my instinctual feeling is because I like practising my narrative divination. I like engaging with storytelling! But I do have a mechanical fascination with it as well. I think this motivated my sending an ask about Dune to both you and transdimensional-void, mostly because the thing that often leads me in the right direction is getting a 'feeling' for the tone of something--- sometimes even beyond pure narrative reasoning. Lol

You'd ordinarily think the show would be offputting to a Jonsa theory (and this is a major spanner in the works, although I do kind of only semi-ironically believe they paired Jon with D/aenerys because E/milia Clarke is shorter than Kit H/arrington, where S/ophie is too tall, which they couldn't have predicted before being informed about a potential Jonsa resolution--- when in doubt, assume stupidity) but Jonsa is also deliciously ironic and tragic even if redeemed through an actual marriage (and we have so many weddings, over and over, that a symbolic redemption of Rhaegar/Lyanna's wound is basically being begged for--- Lyanna is realised in many ways in the story, through both Arya and Sansa... but it makes sense they'd redeem two sides to Lyanna, the wild wolfgirl and the girl married to a dragon. The wound inflicted through Rhaegar's absconding with Lyanna has to be redeemed, whether that is positively or shirking the possibility of a Lyanna/Rhaegar union altogether, so the door is open for tragic Jonsa in my eyes. These types of narrative questions are what I look out for when predicting narrative resolutions and is what led to me to seriously consider Jonsa). I was meditating on this recently because people were asking whether Cat and Ned would approve, and the marriage is only possible because they're dead. A Jon/Sansa arrangement is only possible because they have lost the people they loved most, and perhaps--- like I've seen suggested!--- it might even drive Arya away. As a writer, that, to me, is how you make Ned and Catelyn's deaths in the story echo in a bittersweet way. It's good storytelling. It goes beyond 'and we re-enact the lessons of parents' which is the normal way you'd realise parental remembrance and legacy. And something tells me GRRM isn't interested in predictability. Unless you've read Gothic literature.

So, beyond Jonsa I'm very interested in the reasoning underpinning the show's derivations, and in my case I'm much more interested in Jonsa in the books than the show (that wasn't really what did it), though in the case of the show, I'm interested in where you can potentially see reflections of a book dynamic. But so much of the adaptation is muddied that it's hard to parse, and I'm really not sure how much of GRRM's suggestions they truly had versus what they stuck to. If they knew they needed 'a Jon romance', in the same way as they needed Robb to break his wedding pact with the Freys, but supplemented Talisa, what was motivating their decisionmaking? D/aenerys was the selling star of the show and basically the face of it, and the face of the merchandise and the cultural conversation etc. (which is why they made her death punishing--- the storytelling is so spiteful, and normally I'm a villain apologist through and through, but this case was particularly egregious) and it would seem silly not to give her a romance, because how can you write important female characters without romance? Now, I'm a perennial romance apologist, but the thinking here, to me, seems rather suspicious. So, I think what's special about ASOIAF right now is we've got a theoretical ending through the show, but where does that translate to the books? And where does the fandom get it wrong, and where do they get it right? The historic ubiquity of Sansa/Sandor, and many other fandom trends (e.g. D/aenerys is the rightful ruler, or tragic heroine, and so on) is kind of like honey to me, because all of those theories were completely blown out of the water by the show, but critically--- critically--- there's still room for expansion in the book for other directions. I was put off by simplistic interpretations of the books that floated around and when I read them the fandom characterisation, crossplatform, was actually shocking to me.

Since you asked--- and I'm terribly sorry--- I have a lot of feelings about when TWOW may or may not come out, not just because of anticipation, but because GRRM's authorial struggle is hard to watch through the eyes of fandom. The condemnation of his procrastination, his apparent carelessness--- that he 'took the money and ran'--- the hopelessness--- it's very hard to watch, and what I wonder is how he feels as a writer. Releasing TWOW will lead him into the final endgame, and he'll have to say goodbye to his magnum opus. That is very hard, beyond the show sailing ahead, and beyond anything else. It also gets to me in a personal way (which no one else can help!) because I am a writer trying to finish a long work, and I'm literally at the equivalent point GRRM is, and--- although he's a celebrated published author, and I'm writing for the sole joy of it--- I think that there is probably something fundamentally similar there, which is that holy fuck it's hard. It doesn't matter how much you know what you need to do, doing it is hard, and writing itself is actually an extremely difficult task. And by writing that means formulating ideas, as well as actual finger to DOS machine.

Writing sometimes is kind of like trying to paint a person, except you've never seen a human being before.

But I think that if GRRM is really committed to his bittersweet romanticism, he can pull off a goodbye, lol. And as much as I quibble with his narrative ethos and sometimes he makes me tear my hair out, I want to see him complete his work, because I think every single author deserves that. And because I think that at a minimum, for something like ASOIAF, the legacy of its ending ought to be his final say. I can't speak to his actual psyche but I do fully believe if he can publish TWOW, he can do ADOS. My observation is that TWOW is structurally much more difficult than ADOS, and I think that's one of many reasons he's been dragging his heels, long before the show caught up. Once he gets to the victory lap of ADOS, he will probably have both a professionally and emotionally easier time in terms of having to finish it. TWOW merges the split threads of AFFC and ADWD, whereas ADOS will only have to follow through (touch wood) on the one book, where many perspectives and their storylines will have converged--- at some point, we may have Sansa, Jon, and Brienne all unified! Which resolves character goals as well as being more economic with POV distribution. This is the angle I find very interesting because I think the way he uses character chapters to establish context and meaning beyond pure character is actually genius and rarely done so well in genre fiction, and I'm completely envious of it. (This is also why Jon/Sansa makes so much sense).

This is a terribly long ask so please don't feel the need to respond line by line, lol. I think I got a little excited! Having a positive fandom interaction is so nice. It's really weird that fandom has become such a polarised place (I mean, we had ship wars, but people kept to themselves more), and you're lucky Jonsa is your first fandom--- well, outside of the anti-Jonsas--- because I think it's a lovely place.

This goes for any Jonsa reading it: thank you all for literally keeping me sane. 🥰🥰🥰🥰 If I may ask, Esther, I think you've said that you came to Jonsa through the show then the books--- what drew you to Tumblr fandom? I'm always interested in how people find fandom!

Dune, anon! I'll tag @transdimensional-void because your convo about it did make me finally watch Dune (although I still don't think I'll read the book, sorry!), but the film was gorgeous. I didn't realize the director was Villeneuve. He always has very interesting projects and arresting visuals. Arrival was such a surprising take on an alien movie and it has really stayed with me. I think he has exquisite pacing, too.

Well now I’m even more concerned about the attempted doxing! Horrifying. The internet can be a wonderful thing, but I swear, it brings out the absolute worst in people.

I totally get what you mean about S*nsan seemingly being a BatB thing, but I’ve suggested before that it’s more in line with one of the old monster movies or even King Kong which love to pair something terrifying with a beautiful woman or little girl. It doesn’t mean romance, it’s the juxtaposition of extremes, raw power being stopped by beauty, violence being calmed by gentleness. There’s that line at the end of King Kong, “It was beauty killed the beast.” IMO, the beast and beauty idea is certainly there for the Hound and Sansa, I just don't think it's Disney's Beauty and the Beast. It's a highly romanticized idea, but not a romance in the way we use the term now.

My parents are both huge readers, not really into novels. My dad liked The Hobbit and LOTR tho, and got really into doing dramatic readings of those at bedtime for us kids. I remember The Hobbit the best because he’d make up tunes for all the songs and sing them. They’re very nostalgic for me, that love extends to the LOTR movies, but made it impossible for me to sit through the Hobbit adaptation. Anyway, I read a few sci fi and fantasy books, but I never really got into it. My little sister on the other hand luuuuurrrvs fantasy and she was the one who got me to watch GoT (I’d heard of the books, hadn’t read them) together, but then we ended up living in different states and she decided that it should be our thing to avoid spoilers and only watch the show when we got together. So, we were always running behind from that point on, but we made it through s5 that way. Eventually we just didn’t have the time to do that, and she was so disgusted with s5 she was happy to drop it completely--never watched another episode. I was too invested to stop, so I watched s6-7 myself and was simply appalled by the characterization of Jon. It made me get online for GoT content for the first time. This was in 2018. I saw that Martin gave interviews saying the show’s ending would be his ending, so I a) sped read the books, b) started listening to some of his interviews, c) saw the term “Jonsa” for the first time in the comments of one.

It took nothing to get me onboard because Jon and Sansa were my favorites, I really loved their scenes together, I hated everything after they separated in s7, and I read a lot of 19th century lit as a teenager, so cousin marriage didn't even strike me as weird in the historical context. I can't remember which meta it was I read first, one of Fedon's or blindestspot's prediction of a Jonsa reunion and marriage from 2013, but I got on tumblr and was totally sucked into the fandom.

“I do kind of only semi-ironically believe they paired Jon with D/aenerys because E/milia Clarke is shorter than Kit H/arrington, where S/ophie is too tall” — I’m screaming. D&D @ Kit: "Sorry buddy, if you didn’t want your character to fall in love with a mass murdering tyrant you should have kept growing." lmaooooo.

“Jonsa is also deliciously ironic and tragic even if redeemed through an actual marriage (and we have so many weddings, over and over, that a symbolic redemption of Rhaegar/Lyanna's wound is basically being begged for--- Lyanna is realised in many ways in the story, through both Arya and Sansa... but it makes sense they'd redeem two sides to Lyanna, the wild wolfgirl and the girl married to a dragon. The wound inflicted through Rhaegar's absconding with Lyanna has to be redeemed, whether that is positively or shirking the possibility of a Lyanna/Rhaegar union altogether, so the door is open for tragic Jonsa in my eyes.” --You put this so beautifully. I wish you'd get a side blog and post that in the Jonsa tag, I love it!

One of the major puzzles to me is how the fandom all know just how much the text talks to itself, it's notably self-referential, so the way they dismiss the idea of Rhaegar's son and a Stark girl romance...I have a really hard time believing they don't see the logic there, how it would bring things full circle. The way they treat S*nsan as "practically canon" while calling Jonsa a crack ship when we have that hanging over our heads is a little incomprehensible.

“I was meditating on this recently because people were asking whether Cat and Ned would approve, and the marriage is only possible because they're dead. A Jon/Sansa arrangement is only possible because they have lost the people they loved most, and perhaps--- like I've seen suggested!--- it might even drive Arya away.” --I agree with this too. I am very struck by how NedCat, some of the best people and one of the best relationships Martin offers, has this pain and tragedy written into their love. That's a big reason why I can't quite get on board with an easy resolution to Jonsa, because Martin is just drawn to conflict which is why his characters and story is so compelling, but also makes me think, there will be layers to Jonsa, some real pain there.

“And something tells me GRRM isn't interested in predictability. Unless you've read Gothic literature.” — I once posted a list of gothic lit tropes and he’s included all of them. But Gothic heavily influenced horror, and ASOIAF has horror elements, so that isn't totally surprising when you think about it. It still amuses me though!

It’s definitely a real struggle to see the sense behind D&D’s choices but when I was reading an interview looking for a specific quote, I did see that even in 2011 Martin was saying he knew the endgames, which is a) comforting for Sansa ending up safely in Winterfell purposes, b) reassuring for Dark Dany believers, c) hilarious when you think about how many people are still pissed about Arya and Bran’s fates. And Jon? Well, I’ve made my peace with a tragic ending (although I’ve mocked it a great deal too because I can't see how it works), but we all know they fucked him over the most in s7-8, so I could also see D&D trashing what his ending was meant to be in favor of catering to Targ fans. Apparently Emilia has recently reiterated her frustration that Jon “got away” with killing Dany, so like…imagine the rage if he’d killed Dany and then got a HEA in Winterfell.

My feeling is that Martin told them Jon would kill Dany and they chose to do "the romance" (which imo, they didn't like because the way they wrote and filmed it and permitted Kit to act it just...sabotaged it in every way imaginable) to make it more palatable to her fans who ate it up. They actually are comforted that Jon "loved" Dany and after s8 dropped pics/gifs of him cradling her dead body into our tag bragging that he loved her. Like, D&D made really crappy choices, but I think it was about manhandling their audience while hitting Martin's plot points they knew the Targ fans would hate, not a result of them throwing out the endgames.

“ The condemnation of his procrastination, his apparent carelessness--- that he 'took the money and ran' --I’m not a Martin defender, I have real reservations with some of his choices, but I have family his age and do try to think of him as a person. I find a lot of how people speak of him...well, I have no issue with people being frustrated we don't have TWOW considering how long ago he said he'd finish it (like, back in 2016) and how often since then he's indicated getting close to the end only for it to then sound like he's quite a ways away. As long as people don't harass him, I don't think it's an issue to talk about this in fandom spaces. However, they often sound ignorant of what it takes to write something like ASOIAF, with all the levels he's trying to work on. Also, his writing style sounds like a total nightmare? The idea of tearing things up to fix them seems hopeless to me, and he’s talked about doing this repeatedly—it would be so hard to finish a chapter or several and then realize, nope, gotta rework all of it.

“because I am a writer trying to finish a long work, and I'm literally at the equivalent point GRRM is, and--- although he's a celebrated published author, and I'm writing for the sole joy of it--- I think that there is probably something fundamentally similar there, which is that holy fuck it's hard.” --Oh ho ho! Well, you know that’s gonna make me have all sorts of questions, so if you want to tell me about your work (genre, tome or series, influences, themes etc) I am all ears, but I also know some writers have to keep all that to themselves until they’re done so I won’t pry. Although, because of our exchanges, I would be interested in how you use romance in your own writing.

“writing itself is actually an extremely difficult task” // “Writing sometimes is kind of like trying to paint a person, except you've never seen a human being before.” —dead! I think the issue is, many people don’t distinguish between types of writing? So someone doesn’t distinguish between the goal and what say, a modern romance is attempting to accomplish versus a Jane Austen novel. They might end the evaluation at "like or didn't" and not grasp what all goes into different types of novels, their individual successes or failures, and why some novelists can complete multiple novels in a year, another might spend a few years on one. I think about this a lot when I see people suggest Martin get some ghost writers, and like, this man isn’t churning out genre fiction (which I love, I was a snob as a teen and cured myself, but it is an entirely different kind of writing!), so it's just...a lot of fans totally misjudge the effort required and how easily replicated the work would be.

“I think that at a minimum, for something like ASOIAF, the legacy of its ending ought to be his final say” --I find it incredibly sad every year that goes by and the chance of him completing his series dwindles. People forget that what holds sway over a culture doesn’t always have staying power and a) I think his work is doomed to being forever misinterpreted unless he finishes and b) I don’t think he’ll have accomplished what he wanted to regarding elevating fantasy / getting it the respect he believes it deserves unless he gets to that ending. It's a shame.

I enjoyed reading all your thoughts on Jonsa, the ideas it touches on and how GoT/ASOIAF might differ. Thank you!

#long post #dot chat

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