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#but I also feel like there is enough evidence for that it’s just. it’s textual. he’s in love

bakugoushotwife · 6 months

Text

kinktober day sixteen: femdom kink

>>> listen my toxic trait is writing a five thousand word naoya fic and using it as textual evidence that i could fix him! also pretty sure this is my first time writing dom reader and it is for the most peggable man alive. this is for the sick and depraved bitches like me <3

>>> starring: naoya zen'in x curvy!f!DOM!reader >>> cw: femdom obviously, misogyny, degradation, coercion, bondage, pegging, cowgirl, creampie, breeding, gojo is hilarious, this cures naoya! >>> wc: 5.1k >>> event masterlist

he watches you for a while. he had heard about you, and was naturally disgusted and in denial. you weren’t even from a big clan, and you’re a woman—there’s no way you were as powerful as they say. you were even on his father’s radar, he’s overheard many conversations about your promotion to special grade and how it was done much too late. you even had his father fooled. what was so hard to understand? women had no place in jujutsu sorcery. women are good for reproducing heirs–having a powerful technique only helps in that effort. in his clan, their women stay home and take care of the children and their husbands like they’re supposed to, and that’s why there wasn’t any impressive females in the work. until you came along, second only to satoru gojo, or so they say. he just had to see for himself what all the fuss was about.

naoya leaves the zen’in compound to take a brief break from the hei. your name comes to mind, and he seethes with rage at his brain’s reminder of your heralding. how had you risen so far without a humbling? he planned to fight you himself and put you in your place since no one else was willing to do it. he knew you kept close to gojo based off of your mission reports and the way people spoke about you two. everyone assumed you would marry him someday, but naoya was also looking for a bride. perhaps he could show you his power and prove your uselessness simultaneously, if you were pretty enough. that may not even matter if satoru gojo likes you. he would do anything to knock him down a peg too, and taking his preferred spouse would be a great start.

finding you was easy enough, as he thought it would be. you continued to field missions on your own, but if you were in between them, you were helping out around tokyo’s sorcerer school. he watches you now, sparring with a student. he folds his arms over his chest and sits down on the steps furthest away from the scene. you move with grace and fluidity, outmaneuvering the male student you were fighting, and your grin was clear to see.

“kusakabe—quicker!” you chide, sweeping his feet out from under him suddenly, pointing your bo staff under his chin. the first year boy chuckles beneath you and shakes his head.

“damn sensei–i’m learning, take it easy!” he huffs, getting to his feet.

“this is me taking it easy—i’m not even using my technique, kid.” you sigh and roll your eyes, stabbing your staff into the ground next to you. “get outta my sight. next?” the other two first years shake their head, having seen enough for one day. “no takers? go find gojo.” you jut your chin in dismissal, watching the group as they trickle inside the school.

naoya waits until they’re gone. you feel his energy as he comes closer, but you pretend not to. what could naoya zen’in possibly be at jujutsu tech for? you’ve heard plenty about him, and none of it has been good. you imagine this had something to do with his one sided tension with gojo, and that idea humored you enough to ignore his presence in hopes he aggravated your friend some more. but he calls your name instead, and you hesitantly turn to face him.

he smirks with shallow satisfaction upon further inspection of you. yes, it is easy to see why gojo must be fond of you. you have a pretty face, doe-like eyes and full cheeks, soft cheekbones and jaw, full lips and long eyelashes. yes, you are very beautiful in just your face alone, but he does note the hourglass shape of your figure. your full chest is restrained by that ugly school uniform you wear, but it can’t hide it. your hips are perfect for birthing heirs, and you are strong enough in foundation to handle several of them, he thinks.

“can i help you?” you arch your brow, cocking your hip out impatiently. he was busy drooling, and you wonder if naoya has ever seen a woman before. “would you like a picture?”

your voice brings him back to the matters at hand. he looks unamused, “unfortunately i’m not another one of your adoring fans.”

“really? could have fooled me. what do you need then?” you tease, tilting your head to the side in confusion. you don’t fool him though, he can hear that matronly tone to your voice. look at you, already trying to cater to his needs.

“i want to fight you. and then i want to marry you.” he states confidently, mirroring your tilted head out of amusement, though it’s you that starts laughing. his brows furrow in response.

“are you being serious?” you titter, covering your shocked mouth with your hand. “such an interesting proposal, traditionally men court their potential brides.” you tease him again, now poking at the nature of his clan. but you don’t say no, and that interests him more than the attitude he’ll quickly put into place.

“you’re far too boisterous for a woman. i’ll beat you, and then i’ll take you as my wife.” he explains simply, tucking his hands into the pockets of his robe. you’re entertained grin doesn’t falter, and he’s astounded by you. most women flounder and argue with him or they stick their noses in the air and just ignore him, but you…you were nodding.

“deal. and when i beat you, i’ll take you as my husband.” you smirk, knowing exactly how to put this over idealistic man in his place, which just so happened to be under your control.

“what?” he sneers, confusion evident. why on earth would you make the stakes the same even if you won?

you shrug a little and examine him the same way he looked over you. he was tall and handsome, a bit more muscle bound than gojo with feline features. having a zen’in would be nice too, you think, smiling to yourself. “you’re a sexy little thing, i wouldn’t mind making you my husband.” you shrug, securing your hair. he was no first-year kusakabe, you knew you’d need your technique on him.

he can feel heat sting at his face when you say that, having assumed he would need to try much harder to earn the fight and your agreement to marry him. you’re attracted to him already?

“you gonna fight or you gonna stand there and catch flies?” you hum, cursed technique active already. you know his, but he does not know yours. he snaps back into it, feeling weirdly competitive not only in showing off his power and the value he would have as a mate, but to beat your peacocking.

he huffs, rolling his eyes at you and jumping into action, clearly waiting on you to attack. you’ll bite, knowing he doesn’t understand the scope of your abilities. you throw your left hand out to release millions of threads. your cursed threads are so tiny they’re almost unnoticeable, and he thinks you’ve walked right into his trap. he uses his technique to phase out of your way, but not before you toss your right hand out and catch him in your webs. you smile, wrapping him up in the spider-like spins like an ant about to be eaten by the black widow.

“looks like this fight is over, husband!” you cheer, crediting your extensive knowledge on his technique as the winning edge. had the fight been more even, perhaps it would have lasted longer. he looks down at you with a mixture of shock, disgust and…arousal?

“when will we have the wedding?” you hum, tapping your chin in mock-thought. “i’m thinking the end of the month should give you plenty of time?” you grin, watching him squirm against your threads. you release your technique to spare him some pride. “assuming our deal is still on?”

he has to have your power for his children. as he’s said before, the sin of the insignificant is the ignorance of true strength, and while he may not be quick to accept his defeat, he’s able to move into the vein of the potential you would bring him as a spouse. you would never fight again, you would never need to, but truly he had never seen someone like you before—male or female. embarrassment settles over his features, and he’ll make it a point to control your mouthiness after this wedding.

“the end of the month will do. come to the estate by noon.” he looks over your cocky disposition and nearly seethes again, but the bigger picture is clear–so he has to put these feelings of confusion and shame aside for now, so he can reach his goals.

you chuckle fondly. “i’d like to be married here, i think. i was the winner, no?” your cunning smirk makes his eyes narrow as he agrees.

“fine.” he dismisses with an eye roll, leaving jujutsu tech’s school grounds with his mind a jumbled mess. you were everything he hates. a loud-mouthed woman who thinks she’s powerful enough to play with the big dogs. but… it seems you can. it isn’t all talk, you are extremely powerful…and you beat him. and he doesn’t hate that you did. in fact, watching you handle him without a sweat made him wonder if even toji would be able to handle you. what did that mean for him all of a sudden?

the wedding is lovely given the time constraints the planning was under, even though the guests in attendance are very confused and unapproving. kusakabe even approaches to make sure gojo didn’t dare you to do this. the zen’in clan comes in limited numbers, though they seem pleased with his ‘choice’ in bride. satoru walks you down the aisle—something he begged to do simply for the pleasure of putting your hand in naoya’s and leaning in to his ear to whisper.

“good luck. you asked for this, remember that.” he chuckles, clapping him on his back before returning to his seat. naoya thinks about his words for the rest of the ceremony, even when he gets distracted by your perky chest and bright smile. he wonders just what he’s in for as you drag him along with you, his pride commanding him to straighten up and get it together as he makes it a point to match your pace. you chuckle at his neediness, and that won’t be the last time you do so.

“so husband. did you enjoy your wedding?” you ask, walking him towards your residence only a mile or so away. he chuffs at your eagerness, the conflicting feelings in his gut telling him to be as petty as possible. he turns his head to the side and shrugs.

“it was a wedding.” he says in non-answer, very immersed in the details of the trees all of a sudden. you hum, still holding his hand firmly.

“aw, don’t be shy now, it’s just us!” you cheer, veering down a path that would take you towards your house. “personally, i enjoyed it. you look very handsome.” you practically coo, and his heart jumps at your tone. god this was insufferable. but he loves it.

“it was..nice. zen’in’s would have done it bigger.”

“and did you want it to be bigger?” you respond, and the sincerity in your question makes him wonder what he does actually want and like. he has always had everything except a connection, and maybe that was his own doing, a product of his environment—but still. you made him think. and after a few precious moments of silence reflecting on it, he doesn’t think he would have liked the ceremony his clan typically performs, nor everyone being there. he doesn’t much care for any one of them at all, so why would he have them at his wedding?

“actually. no.” he squares his shoulders and straightens his back, seeing a humble little house come into view. “is this..?”

“my house. welcome home.” you smile and push the door open for him. he furrows his brows and cocks his jaw in confusion. “what? you’re my house husband now. close your mouth, sweetheart.” you hum, leaning over and physically shutting his mouth for him.

“house husband?!” he erupts, his face turning bright red as you drag him into the house. why doesn’t he just fight you back, stop you? is it because he knows he can’t win? that realization alone makes him yank his hand out of your grip and stop in his tracks. you bat your eyes at him expectantly, knowing you had a little brat on your hands.

“mhm,” you nod, a little grin tugging at your lips. you step closer, balancing your arms on his shoulders and playing with your fingers where they connect. “i made you my husband, silly boy. so i’ll keep running missions and you’ll shut up and do what i tell you to.” you tilt your head to one side, admiring the surprise and rage glimmering in his sharp brown eyes. “doesn’t that sound good?”

you bring your hands back to his slender shoulders, trailing the touch to his pecs. he opens his mouth to speak, absolutely stunned. never in his entire life had anyone, male or female, ever spoken to him with such brazenness. his cheeks warm with color. no way he was enjoying this. is this what it felt like to be…submissive? his eyes narrow at you in the confusion, but he only sees that same angelic face and divine body, and he doesn’t think he can argue with the notion that obeying you might have its upsides.

“and right now, i want you to follow me. time for the house tour!” you clap enthusiastically and tilt your head for him to follow you. he does, until he notices you’ve stopped by the bathroom. you lean against the doorway and gesture to the room. “the bathroom of course. you’ll clean this on mondays, should be pretty clean already. i have good hygiene.”

his eyes widened a little bit once more. you were deadly serious, meaning for him to clean the house while you continued your job as a sorcerer. you move onto the kitchen with a smug grin. his feet move a little more reluctantly this time. you open the cabinet with all the cleaning supplies. “the kitchen should really stay clean. i’ll help you learn—i’m not heartless.” you chuckle to yourself as he folds his arms across his chest.

you’re worse than heartless. you have to be the devil herself with all of this. you’re a siren at the least, so beautiful he really hadn’t processed all you were demanding of him until now, and he huffs and rolls his eyes at your remark. you smile sweetly still, unphased.

“you just need a little time to get used to it, is all.” you hum, walking off towards your bedroom. you flip the lights on and make for your bed. he watches you take a seat, the short kimono you wore riding up your delicious thighs at the action. he was losing the plot, he just needed to take control. all women are submissive in the bedroom. “this of course is my room. if you’re a good boy you’ll get to sleep in here with me.” you titter, scrunching your nose at your own humor.

“you forget yourself, woman. i’ll be the head of the zen’in clan in just a few years.” he scoffs, looking over your seductive positioning with a nod of approval. he enjoyed your attitude, he thinks, he’s sure it will make your sweet cries of his name that much more memorable.

“the only one forgetting their place is you, husband.” you cross your arms over your chest, that arrogant smile still mocking him. “you can still be their little head as long as you keep my house clean and my bed warm.”

oh that does it. you’re so patronizing, so demeaning—he stomps over to you, reaching to grab your face. you allow it for entertainment’s sake, looking up at him with big doe-eyes that almost made him forget why he was angry in the first place. but that smirk reappears, and he squeezes your face in frustration. “i’m not cleaning shit. you’re my bitch. you should be honored to be my wife. take your clothes off and shut your mouth.” he releases his hold, waiting for you to obey.

and to his amazement, you do. you stand up and remove your kimono, watching him the entire time. the fabric falls to the floor and naoya is drowning in your curves and the lusty look in your eyes. you smile at his reaction, eyes trailing to his still-clothed form. even in his haze he understands you, pushing his robes off and wrestling with the string holding his hakama in place. all the blood rushes to his cock as he processes that it worked—you were just giving him a hard time after all, and he’d get his way as always.

as soon as he’s fully naked, your threads are tied around him again. his eyes widen at the sight of your silvery silken yarns circling his waist and pulling him to the bed. you stand, moving out of your own way as you smile sickeningly at him.

“wh—what are you doing?” he blinks rapidly, unable to break free of the strong web you were spinning him into. you position him on his back, legs strapped to the mattress and hands tied together above his head.

“what’s it look like, husband?” you ask innocently, crawling over him like a lioness stalking her prey. he can see the real devious desire in your eyes now, and he gulps. he should have known you wouldn’t give in that easily. “you look so much better like this, you know.” you hum, extending a hand to finger-walk over his abs. the slight touch makes him jump and his cheeks warm.

“you’re evil.” he hisses, fighting his restraints if for no other reason than to not focus on your soft fingers brushing against his skin. you giggle at him.

“hardly, babe.” you chuckle, admiring the slight panic and deep arousal in his eyes. “pretend you hate it all you want. i see through you.” you lick your teeth, grinning at his proud length standing tall before you. “your mouth ruins everything though.” you sigh, ghosting your fingernails over his thighs. the touch makes his cock jump this time.

“what does that even mean?” he huffs, annoyed at how his body responds to your taunting.

“means you’re sexy, strong, and have a huge dick.” you deadpan, eyeing the good seven inches he presents you, curved and pretty with a cute pink tip. “but your loud, arrogant, disrespectful mouth ruins it.” you further, fingertips dancing along the insides of his thighs. it’s annoying—just enough to stir butterflies in his stomach but not even close to providing pleasure. your hands are so close to his dick, you could just wrap your hand around him and make everything better. he takes his bottom lip between his teeth, too focused on your teasing to hear your words. you trace his hip bones, humming a little. it tickles in the way that he wants more, so he grunts his dissatisfaction.

you take your hands off him completely, looking at him with a raised brow. he huffs, almost pouting as he looks at you.

“what are you doing now?” he groans, yanking at his ties in an effort to get you to touch him again. it’s pathetic. you haven’t even really done anything, but his dick already hurts.

“don’t complain or you won’t get touched at all, kay? you better learn how to put this pride away or you’ll stay wanting.” you threaten, and he knows from your track record that you’re all too serious. he opens his mouth to protest, but you touch him again and he snaps his jaw shut. now your fingers target his chest, feather-light strokes over his nipples or light scratches across his pecs as he’s left helpless, only able to watch your naked body torture his from between his legs. he didn’t know he was so sensitive, but as your touches grow heavier, his eyes fall shut from the pleasure of his stinging chest.

you can’t tear your eyes away from his leaking slit. it’s starting to drool down his shaft, and you’re giddy from the high, thighs rubbing together at the sight of him unraveling. he’s trying to repress ragged breaths and pathetic moans, but your pinching and tweaking his nipples had him fighting every wave of enjoyment. he can’t help the raspy groan he lets out when you lean over to kiss him.

it was too short. you sit right back up as soon as he sounds off, and his brow furrows again. “already told you, baby.” you tsk. “gotta get a handle on that mouth if you wanna get fucked tonight.” you hum, picking your words carefully.

he nods, straightening up against the headboard as much as possible. he doesn’t care, your touch is driving him crazy. he needs relief, and at this point he would do anything to cum. “would you like that? for me to fuck you?” you ask, hands back to squeezing his biceps and shoulders.

he nods drunkenly again, frowning as he feels you shift away from him. his head snaps over to watch you once he hears the sound of shuffling in your bedside table, mouth gaping as he sees you pull out a glittery pink dildo attached to a black strap. he nearly chokes. you giggle.

“what, change your mind all a sudden?” he nods rapidly, focused on the size of it, not quite as long as his actual dick but considerably thicker. you tsk again and pilfer for the lube. “i thought you wanted to cum?”

“i do!” he says with haste. “you just can’t use that on—”

“mkay.” you sigh, sitting back in your spot with the materials beside you. “i’ll ask again in ten minutes.”

his face contorts at your nonchalance, but once again you keep him from back talking. your slender hand closes around his shaft and his breath is ripped from his chest. luckily, you don’t take that as a sound large enough to stop, your grip sending electricity through his body. his pre leaks onto your hand as you pump him, so you collect it with a few of your other fingers. he watches with parted lips and red cheeks, heart dropping when he realizes you were moving toward his ass.

you rub your fingers around the puckered hole, slathering the surface with all the precum naoya had produced from your endless teasing. while your other hand slowly strokes his cock, your other experiments lower, a finger slipping into the tight ring. he whimpers at the feeling, tightening around your digit as you lock eyes. you grin, nodding encouragement. you didn’t want to be too nice—he didn’t deserve it, but it was better than starting from scratch if he started bitching.

your pumps match the pace around his cock and he slowly loosens up for you. you stay focused, giving him another finger and milking the pre from his cock with the tight grip your hand had on him. his lip is nearly bleeding from how hard he bites into it, and you giggle.

“just tell me when you’re ready for the strap, baby boy.” you hum, eyes a little frenzied from the state he was in. it was all too exciting to be the one to humble naoya zen’in, but you were growing a bit needy at the same time. “it’ll feel so good. you know that’s where your g spot is? bet you didn’t. you zen’in boys are always so uptight.”

he blinks harshly, only mild protests even coming to mind as the hot sweat of need coats his body. he has to have more. your fingers already felt unreasonably good…but if what you said is true, he supposes there is a reason. his chest heaves as he argues with himself, feeling you shove a third finger in him convinces him to nod vigorously.

“yes what, husband? i need words, i’m just a dumb bitch.” you snicker, lightly flicking his balls and giggling when he jumps. he grunts again, feline eyes sliding over to the toy on the bed. “g-go ahead..”

you shake your head, withdrawing all touch. he feels so empty and frustrated he could cry. “better words. don’t you wanna cum?”

“in you.” he replies, and you hum with a pleased little smile.

“that can be arranged if you can learn how to beg like a good boy.” you squeeze his thigh, the only link he has to your warm hands that only make him dizzy for more. he narrows his eyes, knowing that you’re only punishing him for his treatment of you, but he hates how much he loves it. he hates how easy all the words you want to hear come to mind, but also he doesn’t at all. he’s insane with need and would jump off of a bridge if you told him to right now.

“god, just fuck me already–please.” his voice shakes out before his eyes clench shut so he doesn’t have to see you laugh, but to his surprise, you growl a little bit. he opens his eyes, finding you adjusting the strap to fit your wide hips hastily. you fumble around with the lube, trying to see what he would look like taking you. you liked what he said, and he wanted to hear you make your own noises, so he keeps going. “you’re stupid gorgeous, the only person i’d ever let do this–”

you can’t deny the ego boost that gives you as you direct the tip towards his hole. “it’s cold, i know. you’ll get used to it princess.” you giggle, shoving the tip in and pausing to let him adjust. “i’m so nice—could just give you all of it at once and tear this pretty ass up.”

he tenses every muscle in his body, the foreign object stretching him open burned and stung, but the ball of heat in his stomach only grew as your hips gently rolled to ease more in and start a pace. he gradually relaxes, sounds of pleasure rolling out of his pouty lips. thankfully, you don’t stop. you brace your hands on his abs and watch his face screw up in enjoyment.

“see? i told you that you’d like it.” you grunt, voice wavering from the force you’re using to plow into him. “cute little house husband, i think it’s what you were made for, baby.” you snicker, huffing at the way the fabric of the belt you’re wearing rubs up against your unattended clit.

he can only offer a nod as a reply, this was like nothing he had ever experienced, mouth dropped and eyes blissfully closed. his cock still aches from the lack of attention, but it almost adds to the delight of your hips smacking his. you release the threads around his legs, shoving them to his chest and giggling at the esteemed naoya zen’in, your husband, beneath you in a mating press taking your glittery pink cock. he whimpers at the new angle, so deep he’s writhing against the sheets.

it’s a gorgeous sound, his deep-but-posh voice reduced to breathy whimpers and moans, leaky cock making a mess out of both of you. “don’t get too boisterous, little bitch.” he moans louder, either from your nasty words or to defy you, and either way you drop his legs and slide out of his ass. he’s whimpering at the loss until he feels you grab his cock. his eyes fly open to watch you hover over him, plunging onto his length once you get the angle just right. his dick jumps immediately, your cunt too warm, wet, and tight for him to handle after all your bullying. he shudders and shakes his head.

“what? embarrassed?” you say with a little whine to your commanding voice, adjusting to his impressive size sitting against your womb. you’re panting already, mostly from all your hard work—but the need to cum is fogging your brain too. you drop all the threads around his wrists except one, directing the hand to your swollen nerve bundle before you trap the other hand again. “then rub my pussy and make me cum with you.”

you pick your ass up and drop down again, taking him so nice and deep each time he doesn’t even try to muffle the grunts and groans flowing from him. he follows your order, thumbing at your clit as you abuse his cock, waiting to feel the flutter of your pussy to tell him to bust. “don’t even think about it, bitch.”

he chokes a bit, looking up at your knowing face. “can feel ya twitching. you’ll cum when i tell you to.” he nods, rubbing at you fervently. you are the goddess he thought you were, but you’re also the devil in disguise, and he’s so in love it's ridiculous, demeaning, and everything he deserves for never realizing the power that a woman could have over him—or period.

“there we go, there’s hope for you after all.” you hum at his obedience, feeling the tension building in your cunt. he watches you closely, his face still overcome with satisfaction and bi-colored hair messily strewn about his forehead. he fills you up so nicely, and his complete surrender does more to you than his dick. “go ahead and fill me up, my good boy. see if i can give you an heir.” you chortle, abusing his desires for your own twisted game. he can’t live with that, the idea of impregnating you means more than before. he knows it’s the highest compliment he’ll get, and it’s because he knows your allowance means everything. he’s spurting before you can finish your sentence, but you don’t mind, following over the edge seconds later. he’s so pretty when he finishes, whimpering loud and watching your face for approval. your lips are parted and your eyes closed, but you nod anyway. you must feel him looking. you open your eyes and smile softly, swinging your leg off of him and leaving him tied up while you get yourself all cleaned up. he’s mush, thoughts and heart racing as he waits patiently for you to come back with a warm towel to clean him up and release your webs. so unlike him, but he’s hardly angry—he’s wondering what you want him to clean tomorrow.

#jjk x reader #kylee's kinktober event #kinktober #kinktober 2023 #jjk smut #naoya zenin x reader #naoya zenin #naoya zenin smut

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bats2102 · 2 months

Text

ACOWAR set up an Elain+Lucien Book

ACOWAR is Elucien coded. This book lays out all the major plot points, characters, and powers that will shape the relationship between Elain and Lucien. As I revisited ACOWAR, I couldn't help but notice a ton of textual evidence hinting at a final pairing between them.

For those who disagree that Lucien demonstrates any traits that correlate to a mating bond, I encourage you to actually look at Lucien’s behavior and actions through the ACOWAR novel. And if you are not interested in re-reading the novel, that’s okay I brought receipts.

This analysis will provide compelling evidence of the Elucien connection and illuminate how ACOWAR lays the groundwork for their future storyline. Below are the main areas that will be explored, each accompanied by corresponding headers.

Early Mate Behavior

Lucien’s introspection and selflessness

Primal mate behavior and the BOND BONDING

Parallels between their “souls” and characters

Lucien’s Devotion to Elain

The Internal conflict regarding bond

Future plot/story

And for good measure: Amren thinking Lucien is also Hot AF (ACOWAR edition)

Early Mate Behavior

Lucien demonstrates mate behavior early as page 10 in ACOWAR by showing concern and determination to find Elain, whom he believes is being kept by Rhysand. Feyre, however, counters Lucien's determination by dismissing the significance of the mating bond between him and Elain. She argues that the mating bond is merely a physical reaction and implies that Lucien's actions are driven by instinct rather than genuine emotional connection to Elain. Feyre tries to undermine the legitimacy of Lucien's feelings by suggesting that he's being controlled by the bond and doesn't truly know Elain.

In response, Lucien challenges Feyre's perspective by drawing a parallel to her own situation with Rhysand. Countering that if that were the case it would apply to her bond to Rhys as well. He questions whether her relationship with Rhysand a physical reaction is also just, implying that their bond might be more than Feyre is willing to acknowledge.

“Despite what Jurian implied regarding how my sisters will be treated by Rhysand, I had told him, despite what the Night Court is like, they won’t hurt Elain or Nesta like that—not yet. Rhysand has more creative ways to harm them. Lucien still seemed to doubt it (ACOWAR pp.10)”

Lucien breathed, “Where is he keeping her?” I knew who he meant. I shook my head. “I don’t know. Rhysand has a hundred places where they could be, but I doubt he’d use any of them to hide Elain, knowing that I’m aware of them.” “Tell me anyway. List all of them.” “You’ll die the moment you set foot in his territory.” “I survived well enough when I found you.” “You couldn’t see that he had me in thrall. You let him take me back.” Lie, lie, lie. But the hurt and guilt I expected weren’t there. Lucien slowly released his grip. “I need to find her.” “You don’t even know Elain. The mating bond is just a physical reaction overriding your good sense.” “Is that what it did to you and Rhys?” A quiet, dangerous question. But I made fear enter my eyes, let myself drag up memories of the Weaver, the Carver, the Middengard Wyrm so that old terror drenched my scent. “I don’t want to talk about that,” I said, my voice a rasping wobble. (ACOWAR pp. 12-13)

Lucien's strong commitment to Elain's safety, is not solely driven by their bond it is also powered by his past experiences and concerns about Rhys's reputation. Unable to confirm Elain's well-being, he fears she may be subjected to the Night Court's dark reputation, intensifying his urgency to locate her. We know as readers that elain is not being harmed in her stay in NC, however Lucien has only known NC to be a place of horror thus the inability to confirm Elain's safety leads Lucien to contemplate the possibility that the Night Court's notorious reputation is being imposed upon her, adding an extra layer of concern and urgency.

“She is my mate and in my enemy’s hands—” “I’ve made no secret from the start that Elain is safe and cared for.” “And I’m supposed to believe you.” “Yes,” I hissed. “You are. Because if I believed for one moment that my sisters were in danger, no High Lord or king would have kept me from going to save them.” He just shook his head, the candlelight dancing over his hair. “You have the gall to question my priorities regarding Elain—yet what was your motive where I was concerned? Did you plan to spare me from your path of destruction because of any genuine friendship, or simply for fear of what it might do to her?” I didn’t answer.

If you are going to re-read a portion of the novel, I implore you to read pages 145-150 (Kindle edition) of ACOWAR. This portion of the novel really provides a look at character dynamics, Lucien’s loyalty, themes of trust and betrayal, and foreshadows future conflicts. Lucien argues that he NEEDS TO SEE elain safe, and he was willing to stand up against his perceived enemy the NC to ensure that is achieved. From his perspective, he likely sees parallels between the Night Court's actions and Tamlin's treatment of Feyre. Rather than escalating tensions or reacting rashly to the complexities of the mating bond, Lucien opts for a measured response: "There is a longer story to be told, it seems (ACOWAR pp.146-147). This response defuses the immediate tension and allows for further discussion without further antagonizing Rhysand. Lucien's choice to stand down and patiently await the chance to see Elain underscores his unwavering commitment to her well-being and his understanding of the delicate circumstances at hand, showcasing his loyalty and depth of character.

Lucien’s introspection and selflessness

And you know what Lucien does next, he listens to Feyre’s story. He actively listens to her story, willing to acknowledge and understand her expirences while reflecting on his own role, he doesn’t dismiss her words or react indifferently:

“So, I told him. All of it—the story that perhaps would help him understand. And realize how truly safe Elain was—he now was (p.149)

“I hadn’t realized I was a villain in your narrative,” Lucien breathed. “You weren’t.” Not entirely. (P.150)”

This shows a level of introspection and self-awareness on Lucien's part, as he acknowledges the possibility that his actions may have been seen in a negative light by others. (Which I could argue almost all characters in the series do not reflect on the consequences of their actions and their effect on others. So pro self-reflective Lucien!)

When Lucien request Feyre to tell him about elain. He takes Feyre’s assessment of her sister in this passage “Elain would put on a hat and gloves and kneel in the dirt, weeding. She acted like a purebred lady in every regard but that (ACOWAR pp.13)” and runs with it. He LISTENED to Feyre’s description of elain so closely that he knew she would wear gloves when she gardened and considered in the next book (ACOSAF) that it would be a suitable gift to give her gloves, that is thoughtful, and I will not argue otherwise.

Furthermore, when this man is telling Feyre how he was SA during calanmai, rather than focusing on himself in regard to this traumatic expirences, he is worried of what elain will think of this situation. Lucien was SA and his thoughts were still centered to the care of elain.

But Lucien … “You took Ianthe into that cave on Calanmai?” He wouldn’t meet my gaze. “She insisted. Tamlin was … Things were bad, Feyre. I went in his stead, and I did my duty to the court. I went of my own free will. And we completed the Rite.” No wonder she’d backed off him. She’d gotten what she wanted. “Please don’t tell Elain,” he said. “When we—when we find her again,” he amended. (ACOWAR pp 33)

Primal mate behavior and the BOND BONDING (just evidence of their bond, for those who want to invalidate it)

“But Lucien’s attention went right to the hallway toward the back, his nostrils flaring as he scented Elain’s direction. And who she’d gone with. A low snarl slipped out of him— “Relax,” Rhys said. “Azriel isn’t the ravishing type.” Lucien cut him a glare. (p.254)

“It felt … strange,” Elain breathed. “Like you pulled on a thread tied to a rib.” Lucien exposed his palms to her. “I’m sorry.” Elain only stared at him for a long moment. (pp.301)

“There’s a bond—it’s a real thread,” he said, more to himself than us. “And?” Mor asked. Lucien ran both hands through his long red hair. His skin was darker—a deep golden-brown, compared to the paleness of Eris’s coloring. “And I got to Elain’s end of it when she ran off.” “Did you sense anything?” “No—I didn’t have time. I felt her, but …” A blush stained his cheek. Whatever he’d felt, it wasn’t what we were looking for. Even if we had no idea what, precisely, that was. “We can try again—another day,” I offered. Lucien nodded but looked unconvinced. (p.302)

Being the one to trust elain’s visions and act upon them. Also, everyone else being concerned about their bond if something happened to him.

He only glanced at Elain, whose face was again a calm void while she traced a finger over the embroidery on the couch cushions. “Yes. Let me help in whatever way I can.” Even Nesta seemed relatively concerned. Not for him, no doubt, but the fact that if he were hurt, or killed … What would it do to Elain? The severing of the mating bond … I shut out the thought of what it’d do to me.

Lucien is the one to ask for a healer to see elain, he recognizes that elain went through trauma, LUCIEN WAS the one who verbally acknowledge elain went through trauma.

“It wouldn’t hurt to have a healer look her over. Externally and internally.” I was tired enough that I could barely summon the breath to ask, “Do you think the Cauldron made her insane?” “I think she went through something terrible,” Lucien countered carefully. “And it wouldn’t hurt to have your best healer do a thorough examination.” (pp. 288-289)

And you know who thinks Elain’s mate will help her??? MADJA, Why? Because their souls connected

“Does she need further help?” Nesta said through her teeth. The ancient healer jerked her chin toward Lucien. “See what he can do. If anyone can sense if something is amiss, it’s a mate.” “How.” The word was barely more than a barked command. I braced myself to warn Nesta to be polite, but Madja said to my sister, as if she were a small child, “The mating bond. It is a bridge between souls.”

What if Lucien was a gift from the cauldron??

“But what if the Cauldron gave something to Elain?” Nesta’s face drained of color. “What?” Equally ashen, Lucien seemed inclined to echo Nesta’s hoarse question. (p.336)”.

Parallels between their souls and characters

Elain and Lucien’s characters parallel one another and complement each other so splendidly. Lucien being the son of the high lord of day, and elain character first appearing in ACOWAR in a “suite filled with sunlight” in a “chair before the sunniest window (p. 154).”

Elain is further associated with LIGHT and SUNSHINE, through the novel:

“Even wasted away by grief and despair, Elain’s beauty was remarkable. Hers was a face that could bring kings to their knees. And yet there was no joy in it. No light. No life. (p.246)”

The frustration. “What can I get you, Elain?” Only with Elain did she use that voice. But Elain shook her head once more. “Sunshine.” (p.302)

Well would you look at that, elain HERSELF thinks she needs sunshine.

They are both social beings who require light to feel alive:

“Weeks of cloistering Elain had done nothing to improve her state (p.248)”

They both have eyes that allow them to see things that are hidden to others:

“What makes you think you could find her?” Rhys asked. Not rudely, but—from a commander’s perspective. Sizing up the skills Lucien offered against the risks, the potential benefits. “This eye …” Lucien gestured to the metal contraption. “It can see things that others … can’t. Spells, glamours … Perhaps it can help” (p.339)

In the following passage Elain displays agency by taking control of the situation and proposing a plan of action to address a potential threat. She actively engages in decision-making and asserts her autonomy by insisting on speaking to the individual herself, despite objections from others. Similar to Lucien, who just left to find the individuals from elain’s visions and serves as an emissary and prioritizes the protection of his people. Elain steps forward with a plan to negotiate with a potential threat to ensure the safety of those seeking sanctuary.

Elain considered. “I can speak to him.” “No,” I said—at the same moment Nesta did. But Elain cut us off. “If—if you and … they”—a glance at Rhys, my friends—“come with me, your Fae scents might distract the dogs.” “You’re Fae, too,” Nesta reminded her. “Glamour me,” Elain said—to Rhys. “Make me look human. Just long enough to convince him to open his gates to those seeking sanctuary. Perhaps even let you set those wards around the estate.”

Elain also remembers that Lucien was the one to seek out the individual from her vision: “And even with the truth laid bare … none of us told him that Lucien had gone after her. Elain seemed to remember, though. Who was hunting for that missing queen.”

Both characters' aversion to violence highlights their compassionate and empathetic personalities, as well as their desire for peace and harmony. While they may find themselves involved in conflicts due to external circumstances, they both harbor a deep-seated discomfort with the inherent violence of such situations, reflecting their shared values of empathy, kindness, and a preference for peaceful resolutions. The repetition of this in the interaction where Elain reveals she only stabbed the enemy, not made the killing blow, underscores her aversion to violence and her reluctance to engage in battle, mirroring Lucien's own distaste for violence.

“Will—will many of these soldiers die?” I cringed, but Nesta said, “Yes.” I could almost see the unspoken words Nesta reined in. Your mate might die sooner than them, though” (p.485)

The sound as both armies collided … I didn’t have words for it. Elain covered her ears, cringing.

“Well, I never want to fight in another battle as long as I live, but … yes, I’m in one piece.” A faint smile bloomed on Elain’s lips (p. 675)”

Devotion to Elain

This man is devastated by Elain's mental state. Since the bond is a profound connection between two souls, and based on the text, Elain currently doesn't know how to block the bond, it's crucial to consider that every emotion Elain experiences is could also be felt by Lucien. Given her current unwellness, imagine the agony of being told she's fine and safe, only to witness her as a mere "hollow" version of the person described to him, likely feeling every ounce of the despair she's currently enduring.

Lucien was standing in the doorway. And from the devastation on his face, I knew he’d heard every word. Seen and heard and felt the hollowness and despair radiating from her. Elain had always been gentle and sweet—and I had considered it a different sort of strength. A better strength. To look at the of the world and choose, over and over, to love, to be kind. She had been always so full of light. (ACOWAR p. 156)

(Side note: elain being described as light again when at her best)

He saw her in this state than decided that he would be willing to subject himself to Rhysands control and the NC in order to be near her.

“This house is warded against winnowing, both from outside and within. There’s one way out—the stairs to the city. It, too, is warded—and guarded. Please don’t do anything stupid.” “So, am I a prisoner?” I could feel the response simmering in Rhys, but I shook my head. “No. But understand while you may be her mate, Elain is my sister. I’ll do what I must to protect her from further harm.” “I would never hurt her.” A bleak sort of honesty in his words. I simply nodded, loosening a breath, and met Rhysands stare in silent urging.

Lucien is acutely aware that Rhysand intends to exploit Elain's presence in the Night Court to manipulate him. And we know that this is indeed true as evident from Rhysand's own admission, "I trust in the fact that we currently have possession of the one thing he wants above all else (p. 195)," which underscores Rhyland’s strategic mindset. Recognizing Lucien's unwavering commitment to Elain's safety, Rhysand leverages this vulnerability to exert control over Lucien's actions. Moreover, Rhysand manipulates Feyre's perception of Lucien, exploiting her concerns and emphasizing his own ability to sway Lucien's decisions. This manipulation is evident in Rhysand's question to Feyre, "If he got Elain away, back to Spring or wherever … do you believe, deep down, that he wouldn’t sell what he knows? (p.195)." This inquiry serves to sow doubt and uncertainty, further solidifying his hold over Lucien and Feyre's perception of him.

Now from pages p.675-68 there are many important points between elain and Lucien but given how long this already is I will focus on a few. Following the battle, Lucien’s concerns regarding elain’s wellbeing are immediately demonstrated by ensuring her condition. Lucien acknowledges her contribution and shows understanding, indicating a supportive and encouraging dynamic between them. This is shown through Lucien acknowledging that elains visions were correct, the loss of her father, and her contribution to the killing of hyburn. During this elain invites Lucien to velaris (with encouragement of Feyre, she is still the one who said it), and are later seen in close proximity of one another. They are seen walking side by side or falling into step with each other, and there’s an unspoken understanding between them where they seem to intuitively know how to support each other without needing to verbalize their feelings. So, no I do not agree that they are ill suited or do not like being in each other presence, I believe it to be more complicated than that.

Internal conflict regarding bond

To be honest, I'm just going to ask you to read pages 248-254. If you can read this, look into Lucien's thoughts, and believe that Lucien does not demonstrate mate behaviour and that Azriel is the character who understands and has undying devotion to Elain, then you're missing important components illustrated of Lucien's feelings.

Lucien's concern for Elain is palpable as he observes her deteriorating mental and physical state. He feels her pain and suffering deeply, evidenced by his internal turmoil and desire to alleviate her suffering. Despite the risk of facing Rhysand's wrath, Lucien ventures out to seek a moment of respite, yet his primary focus remains on Elain's well-being. In the context of Lucien's guilt regarding Elain and his past relationship with Jesminda, there's a significant emotional burden that he carries. Lucien's guilt could be manifesting in his interactions with Elain, leading to moments of hesitation or emotional distance as he grapples with conflicting emotions. He may struggle with feelings of inadequacy or unworthiness, believing that he's not deserving of a mating bond with elain due to his unresolved feelings regarding Jesminda death, for which he holds himself responsible. Lucien's guilt regarding his mating bond with Elain and his past relationship with Jesminda adds layers of complexity to his character and relationships.

The highlighted passages below offer a crucial moment in the narrative, revealing the complex dynamics between Lucien and Elain and hinting at future storylines. His unwavering belief in Elain's abilities and the importance of her visions is evident as he volunteers to pursue the truth behind her latest revelation.

As they are left alone together, the potential for significant developments in their relationship becomes apparent, as the deliberate departure of the other characters to create a space for Lucien and Elain to engage in a private conversation, the contents of which remain unknown. The deliberate departure of other characters creates a private space for Lucien and Elain, foreshadowing what could happen if provided the space to properly explore their mating bond.

Before departing, Lucien shares a silent exchange with Elain, their gazes locking in a moment with Lucien’s filled with unspoken longing and sadness. Despite the palpable connection between them, neither Lucien nor Elain vocalizes their emotions, leaving the true nature of their bond ambiguous. Lucien's failure to glance back at Elain and Rhys's departure symbolize the unspoken barriers and uncertainties surrounding their relationship. This poignant moment highlights the intricate dance of emotions between Lucien and Elain, setting the stage for deeper exploration in future narratives.

“There is a reason why Elain is seeing these things. She was right about the other queen turning old, about the Ravens’ attack—why is she being sent this image? Why is she hearing this queen? It must be vital. If we ignore it, perhaps we’ll deserve to fail.” Silence. I surveyed them all. Vital. Each of them was vital here. But me … I sucked in a breath. “I’ll go.” Lucien was staring at Elain as he spoke. We all looked at him. Lucien shifted his focus to Rhys, to me. “I’ll go,” he repeated, rising to his feet. “To find this sixth queen.”

“And for once, my sister rose to her feet and came toward us, the three of us not so subtly heading upstairs. Leaving Lucien and Elain alone. It was an effort not to linger atop the landing, to listen to what was said. If anything was said at all.

Before that dark wind swept in, Lucien looked back. Not to me, I realized—to someone behind me. Pale and thin, Elain stood atop the stairs. Their gazes locked and held. But Elain said nothing. Did not so much as take one step downward. Lucien inclined his head in a bow, the movement hiding the gleam in his eye—the longing and sadness.”

“And when Lucien turned to signal to Rhys to go … He did not glance back at Elain. Did not see the half step she took toward the stairs—as if she’d speak to him. Stop him. Then Rhys was gone, and Lucien with him. When I turned to offer Elain breakfast, she’d already walked away.” (p.345)

Elain's conversation with her fiancé Greyson reveals the complications of her feelings regarding Lucien and the mating bond. Initially, Elain expresses uncertainty and confusion about her desires, admitting that she doesn't know what she wanted when she returned to Greyson. This passage with her literal fiancé illustrates her internal conflict (There is no evidence that elain wants to reject Lucien in the text of ACOWAR). Greyson's refusal to accept Elain's bond with Lucien further exacerbates her emotional turmoil, as she struggles to reconcile her mating bond with her desire for a conventional human male.

Elain’s internal struggle to assert her agency and autonomy in the face of external expectations and societal norms will be important in her character development. Elain's initial denial and resistance pave the way for a journey of self-discovery and growth, where she must confront her fears and insecurities before embracing her true identity and forging a deeper connection with Lucien.

Graysen swallowed. “Did you think you could come back here—live with me as this … lie?” “No. Yes. I—I don’t know what I wanted—” “And you are bound to some … Fae male. A High Lord’s son.” A different High Lord’s heir, likely, I wanted to say. “His name is Lucien.” I wasn’t certain if I’d ever heard his name from her lips. “I don’t care what his name is.” The first sharp words from Graysen. “You are his mate. Do you even know what that means?” “It means nothing,” Elain said, her voice breaking. “It means nothing. I don’t care who decided it or why they did—” “You belong to him.” “I belong to no one. But my heart belongs to you.” Graysen’s face hardened. “I don’t want it.” (pp. 499-500)

The following moment marks a significant turning point in Elain's life as she realizes that her connection with Lucien has severed her ties to her previous human existence. Foreshadow the complexities and conflicts that may arise in Elain and Lucien's relationship, as well as the internal struggles Elain will face in reconciling her human past with her fae future.

“So, Elain silently cried, the tears so unending that I wondered if it was some sign of her heart bleeding out. Some sliver of hope that had shattered today. That Graysen would still love her, still marry her—and that love would trump even a mating bond. A final tether had been snapped—to her life in the human lands. Only our father, wherever he was, remained as any sort of connection.” (p. 503).

Future plot:

Anyways ACOWAR set up elain and Lucien’s future plot lines. Through introducing koschei, elain’s vision, vassas curse (Lucien=spell cleaver, elain=discovered vassa), Tamlin and spring court (after all elain does think the WORLD needs more garden (p.693)) Eris and Lucien’s dynamic, discovering Helion is Lucien’s father, elain mourning her father (Lucien and him knew each other), elain and Lucien discovering their magic (their eyes) ... ect...

And if you want to argue that Azriel has any major role in these plot lines I encourage you to read ACOSF and HOFAS as there is ample evidence that the characters and plots introduced in those novels are more centre to his and Gwyn’s character (I can bring more receipts... as essentially ACOWAR set up nessian and Elucien, and ACOSF set up gwynriel and Mor+em). It is crucial to analyze the plot lines beyond the lens of mere smut and romance, as this narrow focus undermines the depth of storytelling Sarah J. Maas has woven into the narrative. By broadening our perspective, we can fully appreciate the intricacies of the plot and explore the multifaceted dynamics that extend beyond the relationship between the MMC+MFC.

And finally, while I can acknowledge that all these points are directed to an elain and Elucien book. SJM will still and will always have the final say....

Amren thinking Lucien being Hot AF (ACOWAR edition)

Even fucking Amren thinks Lucien is hot af.

But it was Amren who said from the floor, “You should kill Beron and his sons and set up the handsome one as High Lord of Autumn, self-imposed exile, or no. It will make life easier.” “I’ll take that into consideration,” Rhys said, striding toward her while I remained with the others. (p.159)

#elain x lucien #lucien vanserra #acowar #acotar #elain archeron #pro elucien #lucien acotar #pro elain archeron #fated mates #elucien #pro lucien vanserra #acotar series

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jacksprostate · 3 months

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With every passing day I'm less convinced of the narrator's feelings about Marla being in any way romantic lol. Obvious disclaimer this is one of many interpretations that can be done of the book, if you like to interpret it that way good for you, I support all interpretations with textual evidence and there's obviously some that way — but anyway, like.

He has no joy about it lmao there is no happy delight.... You expect me to believe you are in love with her when your thought process is essentially "Tyler loves Marla which. I guess means I do? And well, I guess I don't want her to die in my bullshit. I like you enough to not want you to die because when Tyler abandoned both of us I stopped viewing you as as much of a threat to my rabid bond with Tyler"

Like. I do think he cares for Marla. Likes her. But I do not think he Likes her.

And to me it is interesting and depressing. Tyler is his power fantasy. This fantasy where he can access the power of being a man attracted to women — well, if his brain can manage to fuck women while deeply delusional, maybe he can manage it! It legitimately reads kind of like he thinks he's been cured of something. And there's so much reason for him to feel that way — most especially, we're treated to an in depth look at how deeply shameful he feels about things that in any way tie him to homosexuality. He has such a complex about AIDS, he covers a birthmark on his foot just in case seeing it would mean someone thinks he's gay and dying. Maybe it's my own experiences letting me read more into it but he is so deeply repressed it's sad man. Even your power fantasy can't escape it. But also, that in itself makes sense, too. Being attracted to women puts him on top of the hierarchy, frees him from subjugation and the deep literal closet he's in as a gay man. It's not exactly the same as being attracted to men as a woman, which, while resulting in avoiding homophobia, puts you at direct risk for misogynistic intrapersonal violence lol. So. Tyler is free, and he is not. Tyler does not have to worry about dying in people's eyes.

Anyway you have all that, you have the intense homoeroticism of fight club in general (elaborate rituals, etc), literally everything about how he talks about Tyler, and you have the fact that just like. Honestly!!!! Where is the joy!!! Obviously it is extenuating circumstances because of the whole deal but his narration distinctly sounds like someone who just like. Oh yeah that's my good friend... Marla... yeah I guess I like her. We hang out and she helped me shoot myself

I do think post canon they end up having some sort of weird sad sex thing but that shit is not working longterm. Plenty of people have said it before and better but both of them want Tyler instead. Which in itself is an interesting dynamic.

Depending on how much autonomy and personhood you allot Tyler, too, it's interesting. In the narrator's eyes, everything for Tyler ties back to Marla. The one thing he has that the narrator simply can't. In the narrator's eyes, he outright states Tyler formed to do what he couldn't (engage with her romantically). Of course you can interpret that as him being inhibited in some other way, but... idk man.

#fight club

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venusin-aries · 7 months

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Anti’s coming into the Gwyneth Berdara tag and accusing Gwynriel’s of the mischaracterization of Gwyn or only liking Gwyn because of Gwynriel is fucking LAUGHABLE.

All I've seen are posts singing praises about Gwyn (just Gwyn!) and I have NOT ONCE seen a Gwynriel shipper characterize Gwyn wrongly.

What are we mischaracterizing her for?

Being brave as fuck for choosing to train to be a Valkyrie? Nesta’s admiration and fondness of her? For saying she’s resilient for being able to enjoy herself and laugh with her friends after experiencing some fucked up shit? THAT SHE'S LIKABLE?? Being strategic and patient FOR DAYS and spying on the Illaryian males before sending the beasts after them ruthlessly? Being smart and witty? Her interests in sex and smut and stating she doesn’t want to be coddled? Her willingness to sacrifice herself on the bridge? Her determination to finish the blood rite even though she was injured as fuck? Her unwavering loyalty toward Nesta and Emerie? That Nesta thinks her beauty is comparable to Mor and Merrill?

The fact that she’s not judgemental and she immediately accepted Nesta when they were sharing their stories? Her own struggle with guilt and self hate? Her immediately witnessing what Azriel is capable of when they first met? Azriel’s shadows reacting POSITIVELY towards her and yeah, the thought of her joy glowing in his chest? That she teases him and challenges him? That she hasn't seen him torture someone yet but she's seen worse shit soooo why would she be fazed??

She's canonly more suitable for Azriel than anybody else in the series and THAT'S why people dislike her as a character even though on her own she's a great character.

Those are only SOME of her positives we got in ONE book. Notice, some of those positives include Azriel, but most don’t 🤷🏻‍♀️.

Allllllll of those points have textual evidence to support them. And these are allllllll the points Gwynriel shippers love to make about her.

The only charactization of her anti’s will accept is if she goes back to the library, stays there and is never seen or heard of in canon again. Or if she’s evil which she’s likely not going to be. Stop being so petty. If anything SJM has her set up for a HEALING journey.

However some people obviously like to see a female character STAY broken and let her trauma define her.

Getting mad when she's so obviously such a fun character? She has fun and laughs and teases her friends and Cassian and Azriel and enjoys herself but there's something wrong with that and you think its annoying????

Fanon Gwyn and Canon Gwyn are basically the same. If you don’t like fanon Gwyn, you probably don’t like canon Gwyn and that’s fine, whatever, I think you have totally shit taste but whatever just STAY OUT OF THE GWYNETH BERDARA TAG.

I see the shit ya'll tag and then delete.

I’m a Gwyn stan first and foremost but I have not seen one single other Gwynriel shipper mischaracterize her.

Fanon is fun until it melts your brain and you start believing ONLY fanon and wrongly remembering canon and then attacking others for using canon to support their points.

It’s crazy to me that anti’s can dislike a fictional character so much that the idea of potentially seeing more of said character in the canon universe and getting more fandom love honestly upsets them.

Like holy shit, I don’t like E/riel, but I have enough tact not to take that out on either Elain OR Azriel. And I don’t go looking to start shit with shippers because I'm not pathetic. Too bad some people can’t extend that same class to Gwyn.

Also, I feel like some people forget about this fucking scene.

Gwyn studied Ramiel's craggy, unforgiving slope. Not much snow graced its sides. Like the wind had whipped it all away. Or the storms had avoided its peak entirely. “Is it living, though? To take the safe road?”

“You’re the one who's been living in a library for two years,” Emerie said.

Gwyn didn't flinch. “I have. And I am tired of it.” She surveyed the blood-soaked leather along her thigh. “I don't want to take the safe road.” She pointed to the mountain, to the slender path upward. “I want to take that road.” Her voice thickened. “I want to take the road that no one dares travel, and I want to travel it with you two. No matter what may befall us. Not as Illyrians, not for their titles, but as something new. To prove to them, to everyone, that something new and different might triumph over their rules and restrictions.”

A cold wind blew off Ramiel's sides.

Whispering, murmuring.

“They call this climb the Breaking for a reason,”Emerie countered gravely.

Nesta added, “Wehaven't eaten in days. We're down to the last of our water. To climb that mountain-“

“I have been broken once before,” Gwyn said, her voice clear. “I survived it. And I will not be broken again- not even by this mountain.”

Look at me and tell me this is a character we’ll never hear from again. Go right a fucking head.

You can't come into the Gwyneth Berdara tag claiming we mischaracterize her. We take her as is. No need to pick her apart or give her little unnecessary traits to fit her better with any one.

It's not possible to make her out to be something she's not when every little thing we love about her is canon.

You can be salty over us comparing Bryce/Hunt and Azriel/Gwyn but oh wait! SJM uses similar language to describe them ON PURPOSE in canon as fucking well!!!

On purpose.

In fucking canon.

But we’re reaching.

Do not come into the Gwyneth Berdara tag and say Gwynriel’s make it hard to like her but oh, you do like her you do! And then go on to say she’s nothing more special than a Valkyrie or Nesta’s friend. Yeah, I fucking saw that shit.

People are weirdly jealous over a ship/inspiring character a lot of people relate to.

Gwyn is not stealing Azriel from any one because there’s NO ONE to steal him from.

These character's are fake but the hate and vitriol ya'll are spewing at people who like her are very real.

Just stay out of the Gwyneth Berdara tag if you don't like her.

#gwyneth berdara #gwyn berdara #gwynriel #pro gwynriel #azriel x gwyn #gwyn x azriel #pro gwyneth berdara #acotar #acosf #I probably have more to add but I'm blanking #Oh its a long boy #but coming into the Gwyneth Berdara tag and being a dumb bitch is a choice #also this is probably a mess but oh well

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thethiefandtheairbender · 2 months

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Hiii, I really love your ATLA analyses. I'm genuinely interested, what can you say about this take? I mean, it sounds pretty logical, and I'm really interested to know what objections there might be to that view of EIP?

https://www.tumblr.com/writer-rider-dirty-thirties/744225630324965376?source=share

There's a few main things that meta like this one, I think, miss out on. That said beyond the two paragraphs I'm not really discussing their meta in particular. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it does play into why I think EIP gets blown out of proportion while ignoring the more... grounded subtext there? Which is what the rest of the meta response here is about as follows. Please refrain from sending me specific metas in the future - discrediting other people's work is not what I'm about, even I don't necessarily think it's always well argued.

They acknowledge the Doylist perspective... and then completely ignore the actual, textual Doylist perspective they have going on. The writers' intent was to, very evidently, use Ember Island Players to acknowledge their own and fans' reactions to the show (which is why the Great Divide, an episode that the writer of EIP wrote, gets the shaft in the play) by exaggerating and making fun of their own characters and plot points. Grounded in their portrayals yes (Katara does indeed make speeches about hope) but so heavily distorted; just look at how they portray this Katara and Jet, who are completely remorseless about drowning a town ("Oh Jet, you're so bad~").

But the distortion is key. The play pretty glaringly says "Canon Katara would never like Zuko" or vice versa, "because to do so would be a great distortion of her character and characterization." Furthermore, for Katara to only see Aang "like a little brother, and that you don't have feelings for me" is also a distortion, which is why Katara outright states on the balcony, "I didn't say that. An actor said that". It's also worth noting I think that the play itself also erases Aang's romantic feelings for Katara ("I wouldn't want it any other way!"). He doesn't make his feelings plain and be rejected in the play; they just don't exist. So even the play itself isn't saying that there's a love triangle, they're saying that a distorted version of these characters would feature a Katara and Aang that don't have feelings for each other, and a Katara and Zuko that would.

Now, I don't think the play is meant to be that dismissive of fans, either. Like I said - it's meant to poke fun, and the ZK faction had always been quite large and vocal. The crossroads of destiny and its associations with Oma and Shu (which serve the basis for Kataang's love theme) are the bulk of what the ship tends to stand on, 'canon' wise. It makes sense if you're going to do a ship tease with them to do it there, and it's also the last instance you can really make actor Katara 'like' anyone.

It's also a misread to assume Aang would get this angry over jealousy, as well, given that Katara was very obvious with Jet both times, and Aang was very sparingly jealous in Book 1 and only slightly so in Book 2. EIP is one of the rare instances where Aang projects onto other people, a trait more usually seen from his friends.

What makes him upset - and we Know this, because he repeats it outright when they actually Talk about it - is this exchange between actor Katara and Zuko:

EIP!Zuko: I thought you were the Avatar's girl. EIP!Katara: [Laughs] The Avatar? Why he's like a little brother to me. I certainly don't think of him in a romantic way.

That's what makes him potentially upset, which fair enough: it can be upsetting when someone doesn't like you back, especially when Katara previously has given plenty of indications that she does. But he's not mad at her on the balcony. He doesn't take his frustrations over her not seemingly returning his feelings out on her. He's mad because Katara can't, or won't, give him a straight answer.

Aang: You said that I'm just like a brother to you, and that you didn't have feelings for me. Katara: I didn't say that. An actor said that. Aang: But it's true, isn't it? We kissed at the invasion and I thought we were going to be together, but we're not. Katara: Aang, I don't know... Aang: Why don't you know?

AKA "if you don't like me, which I just gave you a perfect out to acknowledge, can you at least confirm it for me?" And she won't even do that.

Katara is usually a very openly emotional person, which is why when it comes to whether she has feelings for him or not (and he has very good reasons to think that she does, given if you remove the Aang's POV we see, Katara is wayy more obvious with her affection than he is), it's accordingly frustrating that she won't just come out and say it. When does someone like Katara hold back? Well... normally when she's concerned about Bigger Things (i.e. not initially pushing with Pakku because Aang learning waterbending is more important to her) or when she's not sure what to do (when Aang rejects her comfort in The Serpent's Pass).

Conversely, his feelings for Katara also makes Aang more likely to stop evading or dodging and to stick his landing. He's the one who tries to confess on two different occasions. He's the one who kisses her first. And he's the one who wants to actually discuss their relationship now. (These are all reasons why I think, if they ever did break up, Aang would actually be the one with the guts to say it out loud, just FYI.)

Alternatively, if we wanna talk about Framing, let's talk about the actual balcony scene, namely Katara's dialogue, and the placement of the moon:

Not only does this balcony scene take place on a balcony like their infamous finale kiss, with parallel framing of Katara walking up behind Aang and seeking him out to talk (if Katara hadn't approached him, it's likely neither would've happened either time) but like

When Yue finds herself in a similar situation with Sokka - a young man she loves, has kissed, but finds herself unable to be with for a variety of reasons - she says almost beat for beat what Katara says here about her feelings and reasonings for wanting more distance. But like both Yue and Katara say, there's more important things going on:

I say this because everyone ignores the aspect of Katara's bond with Aang that is informed by her own trauma and fear of losing people. Aang kisses her because "What if I don't come back?" Katara literally watched him die and brought him back to life. She watched her father mourn her mother and Sokka mourn Yue (The Swamp), which the play likewise gives her an ample reminder of. She watched Jet die too. Katara has faith that Aang will be different ("I knew you'd come" from CoD and "He's gonna come back; he has to" in Sozin's Comet) but that doesn't mean she's not scared. Everyone else going on is complicating her feelings for Aang, and that's perfectly valid -- but like I said, it's a 1 for 1 with Yue.

Which is why she kisses Aang first after the war, on another balcony, because now it is the right time.

This isn't even touching on the in-universe canonical reading of EIP being Fire Nation imperialist propaganda, but that's a meta for another day.

Not to mention: EIP also teases Zukaang through Aang and the Blue Spirit, has them similarly react in distaste, you can equally read Zuko wanting to sit in between them as wanting to sit next to Aang, and Zuko and Aang's dialogue is a lot more ship teased in canon, Anyway.

June: What happened? Your girlfriend run off on you? Zuko: It's not the girl I'm after. It's the bald monk she's travelling with.

Zuko doesn't even correct June for implying a romantic connection, only who he's looking for (love you Avatar "Zuko I want you to dance with me" Aang).

I also personally think that basically any episode that has 'strong' Zuko-Katara subtext actually has far stronger Zuko-Aang subtext, but that's a meta for another day.

I do always think the ZK fandom is a fascinating example of what can happen to a fandom when they only have maybe 5 episodes to work with, nor does ship teasing make something implied canon, otherwise The Dragon Prince (also created by Aaron Ehasz) would have a very different endgame ship (to the point that every Soren/Rayla shipper I've seen also ships ZK, funnily enough, because neither of those are remotely canon).

People have gotta stop taking the bone they're thrown and acting like it's a feast.

#antizutara #atla meta #thanks for asking #pro kataang #atla #analysis series #kataang #otp: penguin sledding

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sideprince · 2 months

Text

I wrote a reply to this post but OP has deleted it and even though I should probably leave well enough alone, it got to me that I could have sworn I saw this post months ago and then realized it was actually from yesterday. This is a long reply so I'm putting it under a cut, but after I went to OP's blog and saw a post from them complaining how mean everyone was to them on this post, I replied to say I'm sorry if they got any anon hate I don't know about but otherwise none of the comments on this post were mean or hateful, they just disagreed with OP. I pointed out that this is partly because they cited non-canon events as canon, and OP immediately blocked me (this may be why I can't reblog the post even from another user, though that's not how tumblr usually works so who knows). I can't help but feel that OP's post was made in bad faith, as a result, and I've seen enough people on this hellsite who are more interested in protecting their egos than admit when they could have been approached something more thoughtfully, so I'm diving in. If you're going to say a character "is very interesting to study" while doing the exact opposite, then you'd better have the critical analysis skills and textual evidence to back it up.

I think OP has some misconceptions that are frustratingly common, and seem to stem from people not having read the books, or not read them for a long time, and conflating the movies with canon. While I mostly agree with the replies above, I want to take this opportunity to cite the text to refute some of OP's points. I often forget details from the text, but I choose to either look them up before asserting unconfirmed points as fact (Potter Search is a great tool, or you can just do a ctrl+F search if you have the books digitally), or else I usually state clearly that I'm not sure if I remember something correctly and don't have the spoons to look it up.

I saw OP say in the comments in response to someone arguing their points:

"that's your interpretation, I have mine, I think both can coexist within the material we are given."

It doesn't sit right with me that so many people think that referring to their subjective memory of what the text meant to them is the same as actually citing it and offering an explanation. OP's interpretation can't exist within the material given, because some of it doesn't exist in the material at all, and you can't interpret what isn't there. OP is essentially claiming to have done critical analysis, and although no one is required to always critique a text analytically on a tumblr post, I find it upsetting when people claim to do so while failing to cite a single source to support their argument. To me it sounds like someone trying to pass off a creative writing essay as an academic research paper, and in an age of rampant propaganda and knee-jerk reblogs that eschew critical thinking, I feel an almost compulsive need to go through OP's reply and argue it with the textual evidence they conveniently avoided, if for no other reason than to show why it's important to discern between loosely formed opinions and informed ones.

I also want to explain why I don't accept the films as canon, because while I do think that canon can exist across several mediums (such as with Good Omens, in which at least one of the writers of the text is directly involved in writing the TV series), I don't think that applies to Harry Potter because the original author was only marginally involved in the films, in only a consultant role, and had little input on the writing. The HP films are an interpretation as written from the perspective of Steve Kloves, except for OoTP, which was written by Michael Goldenberg. I've gone into it on other posts, but suffice to say these interpretations did not prioritize story and character development and were often influenced by pressure from the studio to prioritize marketing opportunities over storytelling. Important elements like foreshadowing and themes were not carried over from the text to the screen. These changes affected the storytelling significantly and left out crucial elements. This, combined with the films having been written with little to no involvement from the original author, is why I feel the films can't be taken as canon. This doesn't mean they can't be enjoyed by any means, just that they scenes that appear in the films but not in the text, or are presented differently on screen than in the text, are not a reasonable basis for character analysis.

And now, on to OP's ask:

"I think he is a very good representation of a man who felt insecure in his manhood; his male ego was permanently wounded by James' bullying and he decided to make it everyone else's problem by being the most insufferable teacher at Hogwarts."

The first thing we have to establish is that the books are told from Harry's perspective, so we have to take narrative bias into account. Calling Snape "the most insufferable teacher at Hogwarts" is a subjective statement and I can only assume it's based in Harry's biased perspective as narrator, given that he and Snape have a bad relationship from the outset. I have a brief analysis here about how Snape dislikes Harry because in their first class together he interprets Harry's ignorance of the course material as a lack of curiosity and appreciation for his gifts as a wizard, while also recognizing something of his own experiences with childhood poverty and abuse in Harry. Harry, being ignorant of these factors, just feels singled out for hate by a strict teacher, and their relationship deteriorates throughout the rest of the series, until the end of the final book.

To pull back from the narrative bias, let's look at some of the other teachers are Hogwarts:

McGonagall:

“Miss Granger, you foolish girl, how could you think of tackling a mountain troll on your own?” Hermione hung her head. Harry was speechless. Hermione was the last person to do anything against the rules, and here she was, pretending she had, to get them out of trouble. It was as if Snape had started handing out sweets. “Miss Granger, five points will be taken from Gryffindor for this,” said Professor McGonagall. “I’m very disappointed in you. If you’re not hurt at all, you’d better get off to Gryffindor Tower. Students are finishing the feast in their Houses.”

Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 10.

“I’m disgusted,” said Professor McGonagall. “Four students out of bed in one night! I’ve never heard of such a thing before! You, Miss Granger, I thought you had more sense. As for you, Mr. Potter, I thought Gryffindor meant more to you than this. All three of you will receive detentions — yes, you too, Mr. Longbottom, nothing gives you the right to walk around school at night, especially these days, it’s very dangerous — and fifty points will be taken from Gryffindor.” “Fifty?” Harry gasped — they would lose the lead, the lead he’d won in the last Quidditch match. “Fifty points each,” said Professor McGonagall, breathing heavily through her long, pointed nose.

Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 15

In just the first book we see McGonagall punish Hermione for successfully defending herself against a troll and take house points, then sends her back to her common room without getting medical attention, as if a ten year old can be responsible for assessing how badly they're hurt. A few chapters later McGonagall takes several hundred points from students in her own house (more than we see any other teacher do at one time throughout the series), and assigns the students detention on top of it. As we later see in the same chapter, the detentions aren't even served with her directly, but instead the children - again, ten years old - are sent into the Forbidden Forest at night with only Hagrid to protect them, to hunt down whatever creature is vicious and cunning enough to kill unicorns.

Although it's said that Snape favors the students in his own house, he doesn't seem to be the only one:

“Potter's been sent a broomstick, Professor,” said Malfoy quickly. “Yes, yes, that’s right,” said Professor Flitwick, beaming at Harry. “Professor McGonagall told me all about the special circumstances, Potter. And what model is it?” “A Nimbus Two Thousand, sir,” said Harry, fighting not to laugh at the look of horror on Malfoy’s face. “And it’s really thanks to Malfoy here that I’ve got it,” he added.

Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 10

Not only did McGonagall make an exception to school practices and allow Harry on his house Quidditch team despite being a first year, she used either school funds or her own (unclear) to purchase a first-rate broom for him. We know the school has brooms, as first years are not allowed their own and they are provided for flying lessons, and because “Harry had heard Fred and George Weasley complain about the school brooms” (PS ch. 9). And yet, McGonagall ensures Harry has his own broom, and an expensive one, new enough to be the show model in a shop window in Diagon Alley a few months earlier:

“Several boys of about Harry’s age had their noses pressed against a window with broomsticks in it. ‘Look,’ Harry heard one of them say, ‘the new Nimbus Two Thousand - fastest ever -”

-Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 5

If we're discussing which teachers are Hogwarts are the most "insufferable" then we also have to talk about Hagrid, who might mean well and be affectionate, but is also irresponsible and dangerous.

In Philosopher's Stone, Hagrid:

Punishes Dudley, a child, for his parents' offenses, the final straw being his father insulting Dumbledore (Ch. 4). While Hagrid acknowledges that he shouldn't have lost his temper, he also admits that his intention had been to turn Dudley fully into a pig.

Hatches a dragon in his cabin (Ch. 14), tries to raise it illegally and against the animal's need of care, and Harry, Ron, and Hermione (again, ten year olds) have to fix the situation and get Ron's brother to find some friends to take the dragon away safely and prevent Hagrid losing his job (Ch. 14). In the process Hagrid endangers himself as well as the children, and it's because of this that McGonagall gives them detention and deducts hundreds of house points. Hagrid not only allows the children to endanger themselves for his sake, but to be punished and subsequently ostracized by their peers also for his sake.

The reason he even has a dragon is, as we find out in Ch. 16, because he was foolish enough to accept it from a faceless stranger in exchange for unwittingly divulging the secret to getting past the three headed dog guarding the Philosopher's Stone (and the stranger later turns out to be Quirrel/Voldemort).

In Prisoner of Azkaban, Hagrid:

Starts his first lesson with a volatile creature (Ch. 6) and, although Malfoy acted irresponsibly, Hagrid was nevertheless the teacher and responsible for providing course material consistent with the experience level and maturity of his students' age.

Gets drunk and has to be taken care of by Harry, Ron, and Hermione (again, children) (Ch. 6)

Skipping ahead to Order of the Phoenix ch. 30, we find out Hagrid

Compromised his return from the mission Dumbledore sent him on by bringing a giant back to England.

Brought said giant into the school grounds and left him in the Forbidden Forest.

Asks Harry and Hermione (still children) to look after him if Hagrid is sacked.

Although Hagrid means well, his actions are consistently thoughtless and irresponsible, requiring those around him - often Harry, Ron, and Hermione - to fix the damage he causes. Although I think it remains subjective which teacher at Hogwarts is the "most insufferable" I think Hagrid is a strong enough candidate to qualify OP's interpretation of Snape holding that title as extremely contestable. Of course, since the books are presented through the lens of Harry's narrative bias, and he's fond of Hagrid, respects McGonagall, and dislikes Snape, an uncritical reading could lead one to OP's conclusions. However, a more objective analysis of the text shows that many teachers at Hogwarts are strict, punitive, biased, and wreak havoc on students in ways that make the Snape's actions look fairly tame, or at least the norm. And this is excluding an analysis of various DADA professors like Lockhart and Crouch/Moody, who were insufferable in their own rights (Lockhart was smarmy and dishonest to the point it risked students' lives; Crouch/Moodly transfigured a child into a ferret and humiliated him with torture as a disciplinary measure and deliberately triggered Neville's trauma in class).

OP continues their reply to say:

Add to this that he is a halfblood and only his mother was around, iirc?

They don't recall correctly. Snape, whose father was a muggle and whose mother was a witch, was indeed a half-blood (as is evidenced by him being revealed to be the Half-Blood Prince - I assume I don't need to cite a source as this is a pretty well-known fact and the literal title of an entire HP book, but should you need a reference it's in Ch. 28 of HBP). Both his parents were around in his childhood:

Snape staggered - his wand flew upwards, away from Harry - and suddenly Harry’s mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner …

-Order of the Phoenix, Ch. 26

‘How are things at your house?’ Lily asked. A little crease appeared between his eyes. ‘Fine,’ he said. ‘They’re not arguing any more?’ ‘Oh, yes, they’re arguing,’ said Snape. He picked up a fistful of leaves and began tearing them apart, apparently unaware of what he was doing. ‘But it won’t be that long and I’ll be gone.’ ‘Doesn’t your dad like magic?’ ‘He doesn’t like anything, much,’ said Snape.

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

We know that Snape's father was around because he's mentioned both in Snape's memories in OoTP that Harry accidentally invades during an Occlumency lesson, and when we see in Snape's memories that he gives Harry as he dies. Lily asks about his home life by referring to both his parents, implying that his dad is a consistent presence at home. We also know from JK Rowling that Snape's father "didn't hold back when it came to the whip" but this is supplementary and not mentioned in canon, so I don't expect anyone to refer to it when analyzing the text, I'm just adding it as bonus material.

Continuing on with OP's reply:

Snape, Voldemort and Harry all act like foils of each other in that sense, but whereas Voldemort fixated on his blood status as the main reason for his insecurities, Snape fixated on Lily.

So much to unpack here. Firstly, all of this should be backed up by examples from the text, as they are subjective readings that have significant bearing on character analysis.

Snape, Harry, and Voldemort don't act like foils of each other. For one thing, a character doesn't act like a foil, a character either is or isn't one. That being said, I don't know OP's background and there could be a language barrier because English isn't everyone's first language, I'm just being pedantic. Even with that in mind, the statement remains incorrect. A foil is a literary device - a character who contrasts with another character, often with the protagonist. It is not a choice a character makes or an action they take.

In Philosopher's Stone Snape is set up as a foil to Harry in order to misdirect the reader from suspecting the real villain, Quirrel/Voldemort. Snape is presented as secretive, sneaky, and nefarious, contrasting Harry's role as a protagonist who is outspoken, honest, and brave. As the series progresses, Snape, along with Voldemort, are eventually shown to have more parallels than contrasts with Harry. Snape and Voldemort were born into muggle poverty, and although Harry was raised in a middle class home by the Dursleys, they thrust poverty and neglect onto him in a way that parallels his childhood of neglect and want with that of Snape and Voldemort. Snape's father was abusive, as was Harry's guardian, Vernon Dursley. Harry, Voldemort, and Snape all had traumatic experiences growing up in muggle environments. If anything, Snape and Voldemort might be foils to Harry in that they both harbored resentment for their muggle fathers in ways that signified the separation between the wizarding and muggle world, while Harry's experiences with the Dursleys didn't color his image of muggles in a comparable way.

The contrast between Harry, Snape, and Voldemort is in the way each of them deals with their trauma. As Dumbledore says:

"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."

-Chamber of Secrets, Ch. 18

This becomes one of the overarching themes of the HP series, Harry, Snape, and Voldemort are all examples of how their choices took them to such different places in life from their comparable childhoods.

At school Voldemort was a handsome boy with talent, intelligence, and the recommendations of his teachers, but he chose to pursue power instead of success:

“He reached the seventh year of his schooling with, as you might have expected, top grades in every examination he had taken. All around him, his classmates were deciding which jobs they were to pursue once they had left Hogwarts. Nearly everybody expected spectacular things from Tom Riddle, prefect, Head Boy, winner of the Special Award for Services to the School. I know that several teachers, Professor Slughorn amongst them, suggested that he join the Ministry of Magic, offered to set up appointments, put him in touch with useful contacts. He refused all offers. The next thing the staff knew, Voldemort was working at Borgin and Burkes.”

Half-Blood Prince, Ch. 20

Snape chose to become a Death Eater for reasons we can only assume. We know he was in Slytherin during an era when Voldemort was in power and many of his allies had children in Slytherin house. At least two of Snape's dorm-mates, Mulciber and Avery, are canonically acknowledged to have become Death Eaters (both are present at the Ministry when Harry and his friends fight the Death Eaters in the Department of Mysteries in OoTP Ch. 35). It's unclear whether Snape chose to become a Death Eater out of admiration for them or out of peer pressure, or perhaps a lack of other options, while at school:

'… thought we were supposed to be friends?’ Snape was saying. ‘Best friends?’ ‘We are, Sev, but I don’t like some of the people you’re hanging around with! I’m sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev? He’s creepy! D’you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day?’ Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face. ‘That was nothing,’ said Snape. ‘It was a laugh, that’s all -‘ ‘It was Dark Magic, and if you think that’s funny -‘ ‘What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?’ demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

It's unclear what Snape thinks of Avery and Mulciber, as his reply to Lily is downplaying but doesn't defend their actions. We see Snape's indecisiveness later in the argument he has with Lily after he calls her a Mudblood:

'It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?’ He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking. ‘I can’t pretend any more. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine.’ ‘No - listen, I didn’t mean -‘ ‘- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?'

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

Although Snape does ultimately choose to become a Death Eater, we see in his reply to Lily about both Avery and Mulciber and later her assumption that they all want to become Death Eaters that Snape doesn't argue for or against her accusations, but instead is evasive and unsure of himself. He opens his mouth to speak when she accuses him of wanting to become a Death Eater, but then closes it again without saying anything - he can neither argue against her point, nor state clearly, let alone with any kind of conviction, that this is indeed his ambition. It can be argued that it's the passivity of his choice that lands him with a Dark Mark on his arm, and it's the active choice he makes to risk his life in order to defect from Voldemort's ranks and turn spy that defines his character and without which Harry could not have defeated Voldemort.

Harry, as the protagonist, is also significantly defined by the theme of choice:

'But, sir,’ said Harry, making valiant efforts not to sound argumentative, ‘it all comes to the same thing, doesn’t it? I’ve got to try and kill him, or -‘ ‘Got to?’ said Dumbledore. ‘Of course you’ve got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you’ve tried! We both know it! Imagine, please, just for a moment, that you had never heard that prophecy! How would you feel about Voldemort now? Think!’ Harry watched Dumbledore striding up and down in front of him, and thought. He thought of his mother, his father and Sirius. He thought of Cedric Diggory. He thought of all the terrible deeds he knew Lord Voldemort had done. A flame seemed to leap inside his chest, searing his throat. ‘I’d want him finished,’ said Harry quietly. ‘And I’d want to do it.’ ‘Of course you would!’ cried Dumbledore. ‘You see, the prophecy does not mean you have to do anything! But the prophecy caused Lord Voldemort to mark you as his equal … in other words, you are free to choose your way, quite free to turn your back on the prophecy! But Voldemort continues to set store by the prophecy. He will continue to hunt you … which makes it certain, really, that -' ‘That one of us is going to end up killing the other,’ said Harry. ‘Yes.'

-Half-Blood Prince, Ch. 33

There's a clear point made by the author through Dumbledore as her proxy here, that choice is what matters, not fate. It's Harry's choices that make him the person he is and lead him to eventually defeat Voldemort. While Snape, Voldemort, and Harry all can be contrasted through the lens of their choices, this does not make them foils, as it is the the theme of choice and how it is exemplified by each character that makes them unique, but their experiences and many of their character traits (boldness, bravery, a personal sense of conviction) that make them parallels of one another. Each of them occupies their own place on the spectrum between the light and dark that the series establishes, Voldemort at the dark end, Harry at the light, and Snape in the grey area between them.

OP goes on to say:

His character is all about male entitlement, he was obsessed with her at Hogwarts and then showed to have no boundaries as he went into her house to cradle her dead body in front of her traumatized kid.

There's a lot to unpack here, and it's particularly challenging because you can't provide textual evidence for something that didn't happen in the text. After the above scene from Ch. 33 of DH in which Lily ends her friendship with Snape, we never see them interact again:

'No - listen, I didn’t mean -‘ ‘- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?’ He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back through the portrait hole … The corridor dissolved, and the scene took a little longer to reform: Harry seemed to fly through shifting shapes and colours until his surroundings solidified again and he stood on a hilltop, forlorn and cold in the darkness, the wind whistling through the branches of a few leafless trees. The adult Snape was panting, turning on the spot, his wand gripped tightly in his hand, waiting for something or for someone …'

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

The scene in the corridor in front of Gryffindor Tower between a fifth year Snape and Lily leads directly into the scene where Snape begs Dumbledore to protect the Potters (which I wrote an analysis of a few months ago but is too long a subject to derail this post for). We see no more interactions between Snape and Lily, and therefore there is no canonical support for the idea that Snape behaved obsessively or failed to respect her boundaries.

There's also no mention of Snape going to Godric's Hollow at all after her death. Snape holding Lily's dead body is only shown in the film version of Deathly Hallows, and as mentioned, the films are not canon. That moment doesn't exist in the text and can't be considered in an analysis of Snape's character. The scene on the hilltop leads directly into the scene of Snape crying in Dumbledore's office:

The hilltop faded, and Harry stood in Dumbledore’s office, and something was making a terrible sound, like a wounded animal. Snape was slumped forwards in a chair and Dumbledore was standing over him, looking grim. After a moment or two, Snape raised his face, and he looked like a man who had lived a hundred years of misery since leaving the wild hilltop. ‘I thought … you were going … to keep her … safe …’ ‘She and James put their faith in the wrong person,’ said Dumbledore. ‘Rather like you, Severus. Weren’t you hoping that Lord Voldemort would spare her?’ Snape’s breathing was shallow.

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

This is the only depiction of Snape immediately following the Potters' deaths. The scene of him cradling Lily's dead body was Steve Kloves' invention and has no basis in canon. If anything, Snape's actions in canon can be interpreted to show that he respected the boundaries Lily set, and that even when her life was at risk he chose to go to Dumbledore - who he thought might kill him on sight - rather than talk to her directly after she ended their friendship. In addition, in all the information the text gives about the night Voldemort fell in Godric's Hollow and Hagrid collected Harry to take him to Privet Drive, there's no mention of Snape whatsoever.

There isn't much in the text to support the interpretation that Snape exemplified male entitlement either. So far we've seen him being as strict, if not milder, than other teachers at the school, his favoritism is also comparable to that of other teachers - implying it's more of a norm than an example of entitlement - and there are no canonical examples to support the argument that he was obsessed with Lily or violated her boundaries. Snape struggles to argue with Lily when she accuses and berates him, and the usual markers of patriarchal entitlement - silencing women, gaslighting, dismissing women's opinions, talking over them - are all nowhere to be found in any of their interactions. The only time we see him lash out at Lily is when he calls her Mudblood (OoTP Ch. 28) which, while inexcusable, he does under traumatic duress, and is not indicative of his usual interactions with her, as exemplified by the fact that she ends their friendship over it. As cited before:

'No - listen, I didn’t mean -‘ ‘- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?’

There's a clear implication that Snape has never called her this before. An argument can also be made that it speaks volumes of Lily's own biases, or perhaps her own affection for Snape (who, not long before this, was still her best friend), that she excused this behavior from him when it was directed at others, and only took issue with it when it was directed at herself. That, combined with Lily's own acknowledgment that they were "best friends" shows that Snape's relationship with her was a balanced, consensual one even when it became strained, up until their friendship ended.

Continuing with OP's points:

He only saw Lily as a trophy to be possessed, which you can see from the way he hated Harry, because Harry reminded him Lily wasn't his and that Lily had sex with another man.

There's no support for this in the text anywhere and is pure conjecture. I can appreciate it being OP's headcanon, but it's certainly not a result of studying the text and relying on it to form opinions, but rather seems to be OP projecting pre-conceived notions onto Snape as a character and trying to find justification for it. I've written a whole post extrapolating Snape's first class with Harry, but the tl;dr is that Snape, who grew up in muggle poverty and knew Aunt Petunia enough to guess that Harry didn't fare well in her care when he showed up at school bearing signs of neglect, likely expected Harry to have the same hunger for learning that he himself did at Harry's age. Instead, Harry couldn't answer a single one of his questions and showed no curiosity or enthusiasm towards being a wizard as far as Snape could tell.

Nevertheless, even though Snape did seem to dislike Harry, hate is an awful strong word given that it is revealed at the end of Deathly Hallows that Snape has risked his own life to protect him. This isn't particularly surprising when you consider that this goal was established as early as Philosopher's Stone, when Snape protected him, which Harry initially interpreted as Snape trying to kill him:

Harry couldn’t take it in. This couldn’t be true, it couldn’t. ‘But Snape tried to kill me!’ ‘No, no, no. I tried to kill you. Your friend Miss Granger accidentally knocked me over as she rushed to set fire to Snape at that Quidditch match. She broke my eye contact with you. Another few seconds and I’d have got you off that broom. I’d have managed it before then if Snape hadn’t been muttering a counter-curse, trying to save you.’ ‘Snape was trying to save me?’ ‘Of course,’ said Quirrell coolly. -Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 17

Again, the story is told through the lens of Harry's bias, but that doesn't mean his opinions of Snape reflect Snape's character. As another example, there's an implication in OoTP that Snape, having seen some of the Dursleys' abuse of Harry through his memories during Occlumency lessons, passed this information on in an effort to protect Harry, and that this is the reason why several Order members (Arthur Weasley and Moody in particular) show up at King's Cross at the end of the schoolyear and threaten the Dursleys to stop mistreating him. There seems to be no other explanation in the text for why these adults are suddenly aware of the abuse Harry experiences, except that Snape, who was abused as a child himself, and who is an Order member himself, is the only adult in the series who we see witness Harry's mistreatement firsthand. At no point in the narrative do we see Harry complain about the Dursleys to the adults he trusts or ask them for help, merely to spend his holidays away from them without explanation.

While Snape did indeed dislike Harry and often compared him to his father, his dislike for James had much more significant roots in bullying and trauma than in his concern for Lily's relationship with him. It's established in canon that James Potter and Sirius Black dislike Snape from the outset (as in the scene on the Hogwarts Express in DH Ch. 33). In their fifth year, Sirius - annoyed that Snape is so curious about where Lupin goes each month - tricks Snape into following the tunnel under the Whomping Willow to the Shrieking Shack, as Lupin tells Harry:

'Professor Snape was at school with us. ... Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me -‘ Black made a derisive noise. ‘It served him right,’ he sneered. ‘Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to … hoping he could get us expelled …' 'Severus was very interested in where I went every month,’ Lupin told Harry, Ron and Hermione. ‘We were in the same year, you know, and we - er - didn’t like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James’s talent on the Quidditch pitch … anyway, Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me towards the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be - er - amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree-trunk with a long stick, and he’d be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it - if he’d got as far as this house, he’d have met a fully grown werewolf - but your father, who’d heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life … Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden to tell anybody by Dumbledore, but from that time on he knew what I was …'

-Prisoner of Azkaban, Ch. 18

From this we can deduce that Sirius intended for Snape to die, or at least get severely injured, and that even as a grown adult Sirius doesn't regret trying to mete out this punishment to him as retaliation for curiosity. We can also deduce that Lupin was unaware of Sirius' intention and did not consent to be used as a weapon. For his part, Snape never did reveal that Lupin was a werewolf while at school, or even during that school year, until after Lupin ran amok on Hogwarts grounds, endangering others' lives, including Harry's.

There are other meta posts that go into Lupin's insecurities and vulnerabilities, but in short, he was grateful just to be allowed into the school as a student, let alone to have friends, and was in no position to challenge James and Sirius. Even as a prefect he didn't curb their behavior, as we see when he allows James to bully Snape later that year after their O.W.L.s:

'Leave him alone,’ Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign of great dislike. ‘What’s he done to you?’ ‘Well,’ said James, appearing to deliberate the point, ‘it’s more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean …’ Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn’t, and nor did Lily. ‘You think you’re funny,’ she said coldly. ‘But you’re just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.’ ‘I will if you go out with me, Evans,’ said James quickly. ‘Go on … go out with me and I’ll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again.'

-Order of the Phoenix, Ch. 28

James acknowledges that he has no real reason to bully Snape and uses violence as a bargaining chip to coerce Lily into going out with him (James' behavior reflects much more entitlement than Snape's, in my opinion). He also chokes Snape with a bar of soap and then assaults him by dangling him upside down and removing his trousers (threatening to remove his underwear but we don't see it happen).

Lily herself refers to James as arrogant, and it's this trait, along with the trauma from James' bullying of him, that Snape perceives in Harry. He doesn't resent Harry for looking like his father because it reminds him that Lily had sex with another man, he resents him for it because of all the trauma James inflicted on him. The conflict-laden relationship between Snape and the Marauders is a significant driver of the story through several of the books and OP seems subjective to the point of being problematic in ignoring it completely and instead focusing Snape's dislike of Harry onto an invented idea of sexual jealousy that doesn't exist in the text.

It's never stated whether Snape had romantic feelings for Lily, or vice versa, only that they were friends. The closest we see to a hint of this is when “The intensity of his [Snape's] gaze made her [Lily] blush," or when “The moment she [Lily] had insulted James Potter, his [Snape's] whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape’s step …”

Lily's blush could be interpreted as implying she was attracted to him, or conversely that she didn't and felt awkward thinking he might be attracted to her. Similarly, Snape's relief at her insulting James can be interpreted as indicative of his attraction to her, or of him simply being worried about a friend hanging out with people he perceived as dangerous and was relieved to learn she wasn't putting herself in the way of danger by becoming friends with them. Although JK Rowling has said that her intention was for Snape's affections towards Lily to be romantic, and that she may have returned his affection had he not chosen the path he did, this is - like the note about Snape's father whipping him - extratextual and more of an interesting fact than a bit of canon to be extrapolated from the text.

Finally, OP says:

His interest in the Death Eaters was only secondary to his obsession with Lily and I think Lily rejecting him pushed him toward joining the Death Eaters, because, once again, his male ego was bruised and he needed to replace it with something else.

We've already seen that Snape's interest in joining the Death Eaters was a big part of Lily's reason for ending their friendship. Therefore, logically, Lily's decision didn't push him towards becoming a Death Eater, but rather isolated him from having any support system outside of the DEs. She didn't reject him, because rejection is the refusal or dismissal of another person's advances or proposal. They were friends, meaning they had a mutually consensual platonic relationship. Lily therefore didn't reject Snape, she ended their friendship and, as already stated, nothing in canon implies he didn't respect her boundaries.

As we have also seen in canon, Snape was bullied at school and had, at best, a neglectful and dysfunctional home environment in his childhood. In addition, he shared a dorm with students actively interested in becoming Death Eaters, and his one social lifeline away from them was cut off when he called Lily a Mudblood. What OP interprets as Snape's male ego being bruised is actually a much more complex set of social and emotional factors being described throughout the series to eventually reveal the profile of a character - young Snape - who was a vulnerable youth primed for radicalization by a violent faction of zealots. Although the enforcement and upholding of patriarchal norms is often a huge element of these kinds of social movements, that didn't seem to be the driving force for Snape based on everything we learn about his character. Instead, what we see is a boy who comes from abuse, lives in abuse at school, who loses all the support systems that might give him an alternative to the fascist cult he's being radicalized into which - if it's like most hate groups - would have been more than welcome to both take him in and help him cut his ties to anyone else in his life he might escape from them to.

It also goes against the argument that Snape was sexually obsessed with Lily that he continued to risk his life in order to protect her son an defeat her murderer for almost two decades after her death. He knew it would neither bring her back from the dead nor bring about forgiveness, and it goes without saying that sex was no longer an option. Framing Snape's motivation as obsession dismisses the realities of the complex and meaningful relationship we form as people, and the lasting, transformative influence we can have on each other, which is what Snape and Lily's story illustrates.

Finally, OP concludes with:

He remained mysterious up till the end and his back-and-forth with treason was very compelling to read about. So I hate him (as a "person") but he is such a good character narrative-wise and he is very interesting to study

OP openly admits to hating Snape, ie. having a bias against him, while stating he is "interesting to study" - except no part of their answer has shown that they've actually done so. Their arguments are unsupported in several ways, one being that they don't offer any evidence, and the other being that none can be found in the source text. What's ironic is that OP seems to resent Snape's subjective bias against Harry (and misinterpret his reasons for it in baseless ways) while also showing the exact same kind of bias against Snape themselves. You don't have to like a character by any means, but claiming that the kind of unfounded, superficial, and unsupported opinions that OP stated in their response have a basis in any kind of study of his character is ludicrous and an insult to the intelligence of anyone reading it.

#long post #I'd say sorry to OP for ripping into their post like this but they think people disagreeing with them politely is mean and hateful so #but yeah sorry not sorry when your argument is so unfounded that it can be shredded with an entire cited essay then maybe #reconsider the claim that your opinions have any basis in study #and look I don't think OP is stupid by any means I think they knew exactly what they were doing and that's why I decided to argue them #even if they won't see it #I usually don't tend to argue with haters and prefer to spend my allotted hellsite time delving into meta but this one got to me

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toushindai · 4 months

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Seeing your thoughts on Rauru, I am now curious: how do you approach Ganondorf as a character? How does that compare or contrast with how you think about Rauru?

Thank you for the ask and all your thoughtful comments!! I've really appreciated them.

Approaching Ganondorf has been a different, more conscious process from how I approached Rauru; when I sat down to start brainstorming "A Sense of Entitlement" there was very much a moment where I had to ask myself "well, what am I trying to communicate about Ganondorf here?" I felt like, because I was putting all this mental work into complicating Rauru, I owed it to Ganondorf to complicate him as well, but I don't think the game presents quite as many juicy contradictions in Ganondorf's character. The game doesn't really seem interested in a well-rounded Ganondorf, a Ganondorf who has a point in resisting Hyrule's formation. Which sucks! Thank god we've all invented fanfiction and can do whatever we want forever.

It took me a little while to pin down the exact shape of him, but what I did decide on very early was that he is just deeply unhappy, the way a bottomless pit is unhappy. Nothing can fill him up besides being in control and exerting that control cruelly. Trace that backwards a bit--back further than he is willing to trace it, because there could be weakness at its source--and there is a paranoia, an inability to trust: only force and domination can be trusted to be real, anything else will be toppled when a strong enough force comes along. Any ally who does not fall 100% in line must be brought into line or self-evidently cannot be trusted. And then peel that feeling back a little more and I see alienation and a hideous, howling loneliness. A how-do-you-survive-this loneliness. And that's the feeling I place at his core--though it's well and truly obliterated from his conscious awareness.

I like writing about alienation? Not realizing that you're queer and autistic until you're in your twenties will do that to you, eh. The alienation from his people that I see in Ganondorf I do honestly read as a bit of a queer one, specifically, given that he is the only person in his culture who is going to exist in his gender category for the entire length of his lifespan. I think that has to feel pretty weird! I think it has to feel alienating, even if the form the alienation takes is that of putting him on a pedestal as king (but also, I have to assume--I will take the liberty of assuming--still being suspicious of other voe in a way that would be obviously visible to Ganondorf). In the fic I have him speaking of the Eighth Heroine, and while when I originally wanted that to be something he learned from Twinrova to inspire him to take pride in himself and the people he would one day lead, I uh. I had to nix that idea because the story of the Eighth Heroine doesn't accomplish that. It is not a story that would make a male Gerudo feel welcome among his people OR reassure him of his people's power! (It is frankly a bad story.) So instead it's something he found when he was--as a much younger man--searching for any evidence that a voe might have a place integrated into Gerudo society. The answer he found was "lmao not even if you save our entire ass 😌." He does not like this story. But to acknowledge how rejected it made him feel would be to look at something he believes is weakness, so instead he focuses on his disgust that even the Seven Heroines needed the strength of an outsider to conquer their enemy.

He has no place in his culture but he has an inescapably prescriptive place in his culture. He was raised knowing that he would be king, that everything he desired would be given to him because he is male. It is impossible to say textually what Twinrova wanted for him because they are. easter eggs. and so I just had to make it up: and what I decided was that they wanted him to be a conqueror, to lead the Gerudo and take over the rest of the land (solidified at some point during his lifespan into the kingdom of Hyrule). They wanted him to rule the Gerudo and the Gerudo to rule the world; but when Ganondorf lost his faith in his kinswomen he also lost interest in being an arm of the Gerudo and instead just wanted power for power's sake. I said this in a comment response but if the game is not going to give me a Ganondorf who is resisting Hyrule for the sake of his people--if it is going to give me a Ganondorf who, upon ascension to the form of the Demon King, seemingly abandons his Gerudo soldiers (Gerudo soldiers who were on board with his attacks on Hyrule! COME BACK THAT WAS INTERESTING) to go joyriding with a bunch of monsters and a rather cool horse instead--then I am going to make that a part of the tragedy of his character. It is a tragedy that he is so disconnected from his people. It is an enormous gaping hole inside him, this lack of connection with anyone.

But to acknowledge that, to feel it, would be to feel weak, and he cannot ever allow that. So he converts it all into cruelty and hatred and misery. He looks at people who have allied with each other and judges them weak for loving peace, for joining together instead of tearing each other apart. (In the Japanese, I am told, he explicitly hates the Zonai for accelerating this process.) He looks at any subordinate--or frankly at any other Gerudo--who does not fall in line with his agenda of unflinching conquest and scorns them for disloyalty and softheartedness. He hates whatever he sees and that hatred would be all-consuming if he were not so strong, so deliberately in control of himself. NOT to toot my own horn but I'm damn proud of this sentence:

Each movement is almost a meditation on his rage, fostering a measured alliance with the disgust and hatred he feels.

I think that is how he experiences just about every waking second. He has cut off all his access to happiness that does not come from dominating and taking away the power and happiness of others, and he has walked so far down this path--each step taking him further away from holistic contentment, each step taking him closer to the ability to dominate all he sees--that he could never turn back now.

Urbosa could've fixed him. imo. when he was much younger. (I'm saying this like a joke but I mean it.)

WAit I forgot to get into how he contrasts with Rauru. The thing between them is that both of them want power, want to have power over others; but Rauru hides this from himself because he thinks the desire for power is evil and he wants to think himself good, whereas Ganondorf... I think is probably comfortable thinking of himself as evil, or at least as what others term evil. And his comfort with his desire for power allows him to wield it much more effectively than Rauru does. We've got a bit of a hard power/soft power contrast going on. Ganondorf believes in power and physical force but Rauru's power lies in diplomacy and civility. In the trappings of social niceties. Ganondorf subjects himself to this framework by swearing his false fealty to Hyrule and finds it more ensnaring than he enjoys (he enjoys it zero), but once he has the opportunity to actually act in his own element by seizing Sonia's secret stone, the social niceties are powerless against his brute force.

#ganondorf #and we were both kings 😳#thanks for the ask!#bloobluebloo #I feel like I had to make up so much more about Ganondorf to turn him into a person so this is lot of headcanon but. I hope you enjoy it #I enjoy writing him #ganondorf (lozbotwtotk)#ganondorf (legend of zelda)

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blitz0hno · 5 months

Text

are Mikoto and John both new splits??

sorry if someone has had this theory before but anyway I feel like Mikoto may have had some level of awareness of his DID before his crime. Like not much, but just enough to know he can dissociate enough to "forget."

If Midokoto (green Mikoto) is real he's part of the very first one we see in MeMe, particularly the "boku WA boku wo"/"I will save Me" line. Not that he "split" on purpose, absolutely not. But if he already knew he tended to forget things, and put his mind to forgetting his first victim, then John and Mikoto both likely came of that. What remains of him, if he existed, is likely dormant, feeling nothing but the weight of the murders.

Splitting typically happens over time, and isn't a one-and-done thing; it's likely that Host Mikoto is there because he himself was fronting before the amnesia walls went up. This is where things get confusing as we don't know how exactly the splitting process is interpreted by Milgram. We're a system and can barely make heads or tails of it. It doesn't make sense that Mikoto would be the only one before John if John formed in adulthood. It would however make sense that Mikoto is the only alter John *knows,* which is why I'm led to believe that at least one more lays dormant.

I believe the Mikoto we know now is what became of the old host, who split into someone "normal" like he was before the crime, an alter who accepted the "necessity" of violence despite not understanding the crime himself (if John's pitiful but valiant attempts at defending Mikoto in the VD are to be believed), and what's left holds the memory of what really happened, and is now dormant. It's even possible that he or John is a gatekeeper of some sort, meaning it's their job to keep world-shattering memories from the host. Since Mikoto himself is now walled off, but he's the one in Milgram, it's reasonable to assume that John split from him; but since neither can seem to remember what really happened, and memories can't just disappear and are held by other parts in a system, there's got to be someone who has the final piece. And sure, that someone could be Mikoto. He would at least know a motive if he were to kill someone, and whether he admits it out loud or not he himself may think about it, considering it's his job to be Socially Acceptable.

Mikoto CAN be a two-alter system, but I'm not a fan of how Milgram implied that John split in adulthood without really addressing the "lifelong" aspect. While it could be a trick to see who does their research and catches the inconsistencies, there are already far too many misconceptions about DID accepted as fact by the general public. That said, we know what the characters know and from that angle I think it's really cool how it's all so murky and ambiguous, because that's how it feels for systems figuring themselves out in real life. Traumatized people, after all, are more likely to be put into a position of "commiting crime" because they are victims themselves, not because they feel like that behavior is acceptable but because the situations they end up in tend to mimic what they've been exposed to since day one. Obviously this does not count for willful violent crime but for crimes of self-defense, impulsivity or other emotional dysregulation, horrible horrible miscommunication etc.. Milgram seems to understand that much at least so don't take this or any other theory too seriously. I feel like our boys are in good hands because first and foremost the narrative treats both of them like people. This is just one idea of how Mikoto's system could work.

There's also this thing which could mean nothing but I interpreted it as possibly a diagram for how his system works, the circles being literally more rounded parts and the distorted ones being underdeveloped. There is NO textual evidence for this just a cool circle. It would be funny if 009 has 9 parts in total but again nothing else to back this up so far.

#milgram #mikoto milgram #john milgram #milgram project #milgram theory #mikoto kayano #trikoto theory #more like trikoto³ lmao #If Amane is truly meant to represent a Complex system and Mikoto a “typical” system I'll be floored #never imagined that kind of contrast being shown in a big piece of media any time soon #even getting to talk about it at all brings me joy system structures are our curse special interest #maybe cuz ours is wack lol

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bestworstcase · 1 year

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Salem said the Hound was "an experiment", but she never specified for what. Maybe it's her attempt at Ascension...?

the purpose of an experiment is to substantiate or refute a hypothesis, yeah? the hound exists in answer to a question. something salem didn’t know, but knew enough about to make what seems to have been a pretty good guess. she says she’s “pleased with the results [so far],” meaning the hound is evidently an at least partial success.

salem also spends quite a lot of V8 attempting to fill gaps in the information she has—throughout most of the volume her top priority is gaining access to the lamp’s knowledge. capturing the staff seems to be a secondary concern. thus, the hound belongs to a narrative arc which tilts on the fulcrum of questions salem wants answered.

so… what most interests me about the hound is the unknown hypothesis. what didn’t salem know? what was she trying to learn?

here’s some things to chew on:

#1: the audience knows something that disproves (or at least casts into serious doubt) ruby’s conclusion.

she thinks salem has been making hounds out of silver-eyed people for a decade or more, starting with summer. this cannot be true, because the hound is very new. salem isn’t experimenting ten+ years ago, she’s experimenting NOW.

#2: why now?

the nature of an experiment is that it begins with an idea of what might happen. that salem is doing this NOW isn’t, cannot be arbitrary—something gave her the idea. it is unlikely that “something” happened over a decade ago and she’s only just now getting around to it; salem is patient, but she does not waste time. doesn’t it make more sense to suppose that some recent event revealed a gap in her knowledge that she is now attempting to close? something like, oh, i don’t know—

#3: everybody knows that silver eyes only work on grimm…

…and cinder, that one time.

the question of why ruby’s first glare mutilated cinder is a textual mystery—in the sense that none of the heroic characters know the answer, and it’s inexplicable by the common in-universe theory of how this kind of magic works. the general assumption in the wider fandom is that the grimm beetle is to blame and salem knows it, but ruby hits cinder with a second fully-fledged glare at the end of V7 and cinder walks away completely unscathed. while grimmness may be a causal factor it seems not to be the only one.

we also don’t know exactly what happened in between the fall of beacon and cinder’s next appearance months at the top of V4—we don’t get to see how salem reacted, we only know the broad strokes of what information got reported back to her, and we don’t know anything about the circumstances surrounding the grimm arm being grown or grafted.

aside from a couple relevant details which i expect to be explored later (chiefly, to what extent cinder chose the arm) this is not information that we need to know—but i think it IS worth keeping in mind that we don’t know it, because it means we don’t know the extent of salem’s knowledge.

and that question—how much does salem know, and is her understanding accurate?—is key.

salem states that becoming the maiden is what made cinder vulnerable to the silver glare, and loosely implies that it’s a vulnerability cinder can defend. this is generally interpreted as a manipulative lie, but… we don’t know a lot about silver eyes, what we do know is mainly folklore, and cinder seems to be developing a resistance to the glare, which is a strong point of evidence in salem’s favor.

anyway, the point being: silver eyes are supposed to only work on grimm, but ruby’s glare maimed cinder. the lion’s share of salem’s screen time in V4-5 involves cinder’s recovery—salem provides an explanation, devotes months training cinder to achieve basic control over the grimm arm, and handles cinder’s feelings about the order to leave ruby alive. this is the focal point of salem’s character during this leg of the story.

then cinder falls from grace and salem is blindsided by the news that ozpin reincarnated way faster than anticipated, and… salem sort of recedes into the distant background of the narrative. we barely see her in V6. she’s not in V7 at all until the very end. we know she spends this time churning out an army, but That’s It—and then she turns up in atlas with the hound.

you see the dots i’m connecting here? salem’s path through the narrative goes like like: heavy involvement with cinder’s recovery after the glare and grimm arm -> months of radio silence -> kicks in the door with an experimental silver-eyed grimm in tow. why now? what gave her the idea? what hypothesis is she testing?

the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that salem doesn’t fully understand why the glare maimed cinder. i think she might know (or suspect) some things that give her a solid general sense of what happened and why, but she’s still in uncharted territory and she’s trying to figure it out. i think the things she tells cinder in V4-5 are theories—and the hound was meant to test those theories, evidently successfully.

which tracks with what we see play out in V6-7; maria’s silver eyes theory is inadequate to explain cinder, salem appears to be wrong about the maidens being vulnerable to the glare but broadly correct about cinder’s vulnerability being a consequence of something other than grimmness.

#4: death and resurrection

by this point it seems… pretty evident that silver eyes are connected to death in a more-than-symbolic way. there’s the flashbacks ruby experiences of pyrrha’s last words in V4. there’s the glare taking the hand cinder killed pyrrha with and the eye that didn’t get the maiden-eye-flames until she killed amber. and there’s ruby returning from her (symbolic) death being heralded by an explosion of white light, in contrast with the white-gold we see when the herbalist is reborn. and of course there’s the white void that people from remnant pass through when they die. and silver eyes themselves derive from ozma + resurrected humankind.

whether or not salem knows of ascension, i’m positive that she made this connection after the fall of beacon.

i think that’s probably why the question of whether cinder killed ozpin is a point of contention: cinder says she killed three people. the glare maimed her twice over, taking the parts of her that physically or spiritually touched two of her victims at the moment of death. if that isn’t coincidental, it leaves ozpin unaccounted for.

and i think that’s probably the line of reasoning salem followed to get to “it’s because of the maiden’s power.” she’s drawing a connection between the glare and the maiden power through the death required to inherit the magic. hence, also, the implicit association salem draws between “be patient about the maidens” and “be careful of ruby’s eyes” in V5.

so i figure that salem developed the hound to test that connection. its core is a silver-eyed faunus who should be very dead but isn’t. the… general assumption is that salem accomplished this by dipping the guy in a grimm pool, but… silver eyes are vanishingly rare! where did she find him! which is why i’m more inclined to think that he didn’t have them when salem found him, and part of the experiment involved turning his eyes silver, possibly by killing and reviving him.

(that or she straight up personified a grimm somehow. or borrowed one of summer’s eyes.)

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hchollym · 2 years

Note

Ive just realized Percy calls Molly Mother a lot but with Arthur its Dad, not always but you see that appear more than mum.

I’ve always thought that Percy was never close with Molly. She may have favored him and while I think he wanted to make her proud and be seen as perfect I’d think he find it suffocating with her at times. With constantly being compared to his siblings, even if it was a good light for him I feel like that would add to his stress of having to be perfect.

I’m sure he loves Molly but I think it was far more difficult for Percy to fight with father than hurt his mother

I never noticed this, so of course, I had to go back and search, and you are absolutely right. There is not one instance in the entire series where Percy calls Molly 'mum' and yet there are many instances of him calling Arthur 'dad'.

This realization sent me down the rabbit hole, so I went back and analyzed all of Percy's interactions with Molly, and... there's literally no textual evidence that Percy was Molly's favorite.

We, as a fandom, tend to buy into this idea because of how upset Molly was at Percy disowning the family, but now that I'm looking back, I genuinely think she would have reacted the same way if any of the kids had left the way Percy did. In fact, I realized upon rereading that Molly's "love" of Percy was more like a love of Percy's prefect and Head Boy status.

Here is every interaction with Percy & Molly.

There is only one in Book 1:

“Can’t stay long, Mother,” he said. “I’m up front, the prefects have got two compartments to themselves —” “Oh, are you a prefect, Percy?” said one of the twins, with an air of great surprise. “You should have said something, we had no idea.” “Hang on, I think I remember him saying something about it,” said the other twin. “Once —” “Or twice —” “A minute —” “All summer —” “Oh, shut up,” said Percy the Prefect. “How come Percy gets new robes, anyway?” said one of the twins. “Because he’s a prefect,” said their mother fondly. “All right, dear, well, have a good term — send me an owl when you get there.” She kissed Percy on the cheek and he left. Then she turned to the twins.

The kiss on the cheek is not indicative of any close bond, because we also see later on that:

Mrs. Weasley kissed all her children, then Hermione, and finally Harry. He was embarrassed, but really quite pleased, when she gave him an extra hug.

As for her excitement with Percy being a prefect? Here was her reaction to Ron being a prefect:

“His badge,” said Fred, with the air of getting the worst over quickly. “His lovely shiny new prefect’s badge.” Fred’s words took a moment to penetrate Mrs. Weasley’s preoccupation about pajamas. “His . . . but . . . Ron, you’re not. . . ?” Ron held up his badge. Mrs. Weasley let out a shriek just like Hermione’s. “I don’t believe it! I don’t believe it! Oh, Ron, how wonderful! A prefect! That’s everyone in the family!” “What are Fred and I, next-door neighbors?” said George indignantly, as his mother pushed him aside and flung her arms around her youngest son.

She's excited that her child got recognition - and by extension, she got recognition. It had nothing special to do with Percy.

There are no interactions between Percy and Molly in Book 2, but we do have this conversation:

“Beds empty! No note! Car gone — could have crashed — out of my mind with worry — did you care? — never, as long as I’ve lived — you wait until your father gets home, we never had trouble like this from Bill or Charlie or Percy —” “Perfect Percy,” muttered Fred. “YOU COULD DO WITH TAKING A LEAF OUT OF PERCY’S BOOK!” yelled Mrs. Weasley, prodding a finger in Fred’s chest. “You could have died, you could have been seen, you could have lost your father his job —”

She mentions Bill & Charlie first, and she only focuses on Percy after Fred does.

There are two interactions between Percy and Molly in Book 3, one of which was Molly asking Percy to look out for Harry, which doesn't imply any sort of favoritism, and the other was:

“I said, that’s enough,” said Mrs. Weasley, depositing her shopping in an empty chair. “Hello, Harry, dear. I suppose you’ve heard our exciting news?” She pointed to the brand-new silver badge on Percy’s chest. “Second Head Boy in the family!” she said, swelling with pride.

Yet again, we see Molly more excited about the accomplishment of being Head Boy, and she is quick to point out that Percy is the second one in the Weasley family, because of course that's a status symbol.

There is only one interaction between Percy and Molly in Book 4, and it's not a positive one:

“Your father hasn’t had to go into the office on weekends since the days of You-Know-Who,” she said. “They’re working him far too hard. His dinner’s going to be ruined if he doesn’t come home soon.” “Well, Father feels he’s got to make up for his mistake at the match, doesn’t he?” said Percy. “If truth be told, he was a tad unwise to make a public statement without clearing it with his Head of Department first —” “Don’t you dare blame your father for what that wretched Skeeter woman wrote!” said Mrs. Weasley, flaring up at once.

She's definitely not showing favoritism here - she doesn't even let Percy get away with saying a mildly offensive thing about Arthur.

In fact, in Book 4, when the whole Weasley clan returns from the disaster at the Quidditch World Cup, and Molly has been worried sick, she hugs Fred & George first - she doesn't even address Percy.

It isn't until Percy leaves the family that Molly focuses on him, and I really do think she would have done that for any of her children.

To summarize, there is no actual evidence to prove that Percy was Molly's favorite child - in fact, there's more evidence proving that he wasn't! 😱

So thank you for this comment, because it seriously made me reevaluate my thoughts and headcanons about their relationship, which was fun! 😊

#ask me #anon ask #anon made me really think #percy weasley #weasley family dynamic #hp #my thoughts #my headcanons

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istumpysk · 8 months

Text

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Varys has Tyrek Lannister

TIER:

People's Choice!

Stumpy note: This is one of those times when I don't think you should pay close attention to my definitions. I don't want to influence your vote, but I just want to say that sometimes something can be extremely likely without there being mountains of evidence. For instance, consider a theory like the Hound being the gravedigger.

Strong Contender: These theories have a lot of textual support, but there are still some elements of uncertainty.

vs.

Possible: These theories could be true, but additional evidence is needed, as different interpretations or errors are possible.

vs.

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

First, who is Tyrek Lannister?

Son of Darlessa Marbrand and Tygett Lannister, Tywin Lannister's brother.

Handsome with long golden curls, roughly the same age as Sansa.

Served as Robert Baratheon's squire.

Married Lady Ermesande Hayford to secure her lands for House Lannister.

His bride, Ermesande, is an infant.

Moving on to the key points.

Stannis and Renly Baratheon block King's Landing's food supplies, causing widespread unrest. On the day Princess Myrcella leaves for Dorne, a mob attacks the royal party, sparking a riot.

Tyrek was in attendance and goes missing in the chaos.

"Ser Preston is not returned," Ser Boros Blount reported, "nor Aron Santagar." "Nor Wet Nurse," said Ser Horas Redwyne. That was the mocking name the other squires had hung on young Tyrek Lannister. - Tyrion IX, ACOK

And stays missing.

Tyrek was still missing, as was the High Septon's crystal crown. Nine gold cloaks had been slain, two score wounded. No one had troubled to count how many of the mob had died. "I want Tyrek found, alive or dead," Tyrion said curtly when Bywater was done. "He's no more than a boy. Son to my late uncle Tygett. His father was always kind to me." "We'll find him. The septon's crown as well." - Tyrion IX, ACOK

This mystery continues into the next book.

"Aye. I fear I did not leave him in the best of moods. Lord Tywin feels forty-four hundred guardsmen more than sufficient to find one lost squire, but your cousin Tyrek remains missing." Tyrek was the son of his late Uncle Tygett, a boy of thirteen. He had vanished in the riot, not long after wedding the Lady Ermesande, a suckling babe who happened to be the last surviving heir of House Hayford. And likely the first bride in the history of the Seven Kingdoms to be widowed before she was weaned. "I couldn't find him either," confessed Tyrion. - Tyrion I, ASOS

Suddenly, a throwaway detail: Varys, the master of whisperers and knower of all things, helped try to locate the young man.

"He's feeding worms," said Bronn with his usual tact. "Ironhand looked for him, and the eunuch rattled a nice fat purse. They had no more luck than we did. Give it up, ser." Ser Addam gazed at the sellsword with distaste. "Lord Tywin is stubborn where his blood is concerned. He will have the lad, alive or dead, and I mean to oblige him." He looked back to Tyrion. "You will find your father in his solar." - Tyrion I, ASOS

Then, another oddity: Varys the mummer puts on a bit of a performance.

"Alas, our beloved Tyrek has quite vanished, the poor brave lad." Varys sounded close to tears. - Tyrion III, ASOS

Not done yet, the author extends this mystery into A Feast for Crows. I can't give you an exact number of days, but at this point, Tyrek has been missing for a long time, and these people probably should have moved on.

Also, check out that ellipsis of truth.

The lady of the castle was a Lannister by marriage, a plump toddler who had been wed to his cousin Tyrek before she was a year old. Lady Ermesande was duly trotted out for their approval, all trussed up in a little gown of cloth-of-gold, with the green fretty and green pale wavy of House Hayford rendered in tiny beads of jade. But soon enough the girl began to squall, whereupon she was promptly whisked off to bed by her wet nurse. "Has there been no word of our Lord Tyrek?" her castellan asked as a course of trout was served. "None." Tyrek Lannister had vanished during the riots in King's Landing whilst Jaime himself was still captive at Riverrun. The boy would be fourteen by now, assuming he was still alive. "I led a search myself, at Lord Tywin's command," offered Addam Marbrand as he boned his fish, "but I found no more than Bywater had before me. The boy was last seen ahorse, when the press of the mob broke the line of gold cloaks. Afterward . . . well, his palfrey was found, but not the rider. Most like they pulled him down and slew him. But if that's so, where is his body? The mob let the other corpses lie, why not his?" "He would be of more value alive," suggested Strongboar. "Any Lannister would bring a hefty ransom." "No doubt," Marbrand agreed, "yet no ransom demand was ever made. The boy is simply gone." "The boy is dead." Jaime had drunk three cups of wine, and his golden hand seemed to be growing heavier and clumsier by the moment. A hook would serve me just as well. "If they realized whom they'd killed, no doubt they threw him in the river for fear of my father's wrath. They know the taste of that in King's Landing. Lord Tywin always paid his debts." "Always," Strongboar agreed, and that was the end of that. - Jaime III, AFFC

Finally, it happens: Jaime Lannister implicates Varys in the disappearance of Tyrek Lannister and openly questions why Varys wasn't present during the bread riots.

Also, another ellipsis of truth!

Yet afterward, alone in the tower room he had been offered for the night, Jaime found himself wondering. Tyrek had served King Robert as a squire, side by side with Lancel. Knowledge could be more valuable than gold, more deadly than a dagger. It was Varys he thought of then, smiling and smelling of lavender. The eunuch had agents and informers all over the city. It would have been a simple matter for him to arrange to have Tyrek snatched during the confusion . . . provided he knew beforehand that the mob was like to riot. And Varys knew all, or so he would have us believe. Yet he gave Cersei no warning of that riot. Nor did he ride down to the ships to see Myrcella off. - Jaime III, AFFC

You might remember that Varys also helped Gendry escape King's Landing and claims to have done the same for Aegon VI Targaryen.

Snatching young male nobles from King's Landing has become something of a hobby at this point. (Not to be outdone, Littlefinger has taken up the same pastime.)

"Here's something you don't know. It wasn't supposed to happen like it did. I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who it's from. Lord Eddard's to take the black, he says to me, wait, he'll be going with you. Why d'you think I was there? Only something went queer." - Arya I, ACOK

The lad flushed. "That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away." - Tyrion VI, ADWD

Lastly, in 2001, George R. R. Martin pulled a George R. R. Martin.

Was "file Tyrek" closed in ASOS with the hint that he ended in a bowl of stew? Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. - George R. R. Martin

(To my knowledge, it has never been hinted that Tyrek ended up in a bowl of stew.)

COUNTER-EVIDENCE:

Maybe Littlefinger has him?

On a serious note, this is a totally realistic scenario:

"If they realized whom they'd killed, no doubt they threw him in the river for fear of my father's wrath. They know the taste of that in King's Landing. Lord Tywin always paid his debts." - Jaime III, AFFC

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

Two more and Varys gets his boyband.

Remember everyone, sometimes: quality > quantity.

VOTE:

NEXT THEORY:

Tysha is the Sailor's Wife

[Main menu]

#operation iceberg #asoiaf theory tier list #theory 6 #varys has tyrek lannister

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thatswhatsushesaid · 6 months

Text

kicking around some thoughts this morning, this is extremely disorganized but here are the key ingredients in this meta smoothie:

jin guangyao +

the bad things that he does (both of his own free will and under duress for wrh and/or jgs) +

textual evidence presented to the reader indicating that jgy is aware of the awfulness of these things +

reader interpretation of what jgy's understanding of that awfulness means about his personal feelings about his own actions (i.e., he is perfectly okay with them, or he is absolutely fucked up by them, or something in between)

= two* contradictory versions of jgy in fic and/or the neverending game of mdzs fandom discourse

(*yes i know there are more than two contradictory interpretations of his character, but by and large the majority these interpretations can be filed into two categories: he's Evil or he's Not Evil.)

the more i mull it over, the more i think it's at this specific intersection (of jin guangyao as a character, the actions he takes in the story, his understanding of these actions as being terrible, and reader response to his understanding) where the disconnect happens between fans who consider themselves jgy stans, and fans who either don't like jgy or don't have much of an opinion on him either way.

i think it's clear where i stand on the issue (jgy is NOT unaffected by the terrible things he has done, even in those instances where he believed his actions to be unavoidable or necessary), but i also want to provide clear textual evidence for why i stand by this interpretation. since i don't have the time today to go through the whole book and draw out the specific passages i have in mind, i'll just pull this one quote from the guanyin temple sequence for now and come back to this post with additional quotes as reblogs later:

Only after the word came out did [Lan Xichen] remember that he’d already one-sidedly broke off with Jin GuangYao, and thus he shouldn’t call him [A-Yao]. However, Jin GuangYao seemed as if he didn’t notice it, his expression collected, “Brother, don’t be surprised that I can call him such dirty things. To this father of mine, I once had hopes as well. In the past, as long as it was his command, whether it be to betray Sect Leader Wen or protect Xue Yang or remove anyone who disagreed, no matter how foolish it was, how hated I’d be, I’d obey regardlessly. But do you know what it was that made me lose hope completely? I’ll answer your first question now. It wasn’t that I’d never be worth a single hair on Jin ZiXuan or one of the holes in Jin ZiXun, it wasn’t that he took back Mo XuanYu, it wasn’t that he tried every possible way to make me a mere figurehead either. It was the truth he once told the maid beside me when he was out indulging himself again [...]" -EXR translation, pg 984

bolded emphasis is mine because i think these textual context clues provide insight into jgy's state of mind, both in this moment where he is struggling to maintain his composure (and will later fail to maintain it), as well as in the past when he was carrying out these actions for jgs. i think we have every reason to believe that jgy is being honest when he says that he once had hope of receiving his father's affection, recognition, and respect, given what we have seen of his past actions prior to his legitimization. i also think he's being honest when he describes the actions he takes for jgs as being foolish, or certain to make people hate him, because... well, that's precisely what happens in the text, isn't it? his word choice is deliberate when he describes his own actions: they were foolish, and he knew that he would be hated for doing them, but even while doing them, he held out hope that perhaps one day, he would have done enough to earn the thing that jgs gave freely and unconditionally to his other children. one day, he would not have to do these terrible things that jgs never, ever asked of jzx, or jzn, or mxy, ever again.

and then. and then.

anywho. /sticks a bookmark on this post, i will come back to this, probably.

#mdzs meta #jin guangyao #he did crimes??? good for him 😌

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bethanydelleman · 1 year

Note

From one of your old asks: "I think when she's not in a horrible situation, Jane likes his personality."

I'd love for you to elaborate more on this (if you have the time and energy ofc)

I have heard many people say jane only married Frank for his money - that he was her ticket out of having to be a governess and she wouldn't have accepted him if she was rich herself. I instinctively feel that to be untrue but can't find enough textual evidence against it unfortunately - would love to hear your thoughts about it :)

Of course I can elaborate! I've vacilated myself on if Jane loves Frank or not, but I've come to the conclusion that she does, because you are right that she's in a very unfortunate situation and Frank is her only way out, but she is willing to release him from the obligation.

Here is my evidence, Jane is angry that Frank sent the piano without warning, but she is also happy about it and about him confessing his love:

“Here is something quite new to me. Do you know it?—Cramer.—And here are a new set of Irish melodies. That, from such a quarter, one might expect. This was all sent with the instrument. Very thoughtful of Colonel Campbell, was not it?—He knew Miss Fairfax could have no music here. I honour that part of the attention particularly; it shews it to have been so thoroughly from the heart. Nothing hastily done; nothing incomplete. True affection only could have prompted it.”

Emma wished he would be less pointed, yet could not help being amused; and when on glancing her eye towards Jane Fairfax she caught the remains of a smile, when she saw that with all the deep blush of consciousness, there had been a smile of secret delight, she had less scruple in the amusement, and much less compunction with respect to her.—This amiable, upright, perfect Jane Fairfax was apparently cherishing very reprehensible feelings.

We are also told over and over again that Jane is extremely moral, so for her to accept a marriage proposal, especially a secret one, it would be logical to assume she was in love. Austen is not kind to people who marry without love.

We see Jane feeling guilty for her deceit here:

...Indeed, Miss Woodhouse, (speaking more collectedly,) with the consciousness which I have of misconduct, very great misconduct, it is particularly consoling to me to know that those of my friends, whose good opinion is most worth preserving, are not disgusted to such a degree as to—I have not time for half that I could wish to say. I long to make apologies, excuses, to urge something for myself. I feel it so very due. But, unfortunately—in short, if your compassion does not stand my friend—”

“Oh! you are too scrupulous, indeed you are,” cried Emma warmly, and taking her hand. “You owe me no apologies; and every body to whom you might be supposed to owe them, is so perfectly satisfied, so delighted even—”

“You are very kind, but I know what my manners were to you.—So cold and artificial!—I had always a part to act.—It was a life of deceit!

Nextly, Jane breaks off the engagement when she believes that Frank no longer loves her. This is from Box Hill:

Jane declined it, however, and the husband and wife walked off. “Happy couple!” said Frank Churchill, as soon as they were out of hearing:—“How well they suit one another!—Very lucky—marrying as they did, upon an acquaintance formed only in a public place!—They only knew each other, I think, a few weeks in Bath! Peculiarly lucky!—for as to any real knowledge of a person’s disposition that Bath, or any public place, can give—it is all nothing; there can be no knowledge. It is only by seeing women in their own homes, among their own set, just as they always are, that you can form any just judgment. Short of that, it is all guess and luck—and will generally be ill-luck. How many a man has committed himself on a short acquaintance, and rued it all the rest of his life!”

Miss Fairfax, who had seldom spoken before, except among her own confederates, spoke now.

“Such things do occur, undoubtedly.”—She was stopped by a cough. Frank Churchill turned towards her to listen.

“You were speaking,” said he, gravely. She recovered her voice.

“I was only going to observe, that though such unfortunate circumstances do sometimes occur both to men and women, I cannot imagine them to be very frequent. A hasty and imprudent attachment may arise—but there is generally time to recover from it afterwards. I would be understood to mean, that it can be only weak, irresolute characters, (whose happiness must be always at the mercy of chance,) who will suffer an unfortunate acquaintance to be an inconvenience, an oppression for ever.”

He made no answer; merely looked, and bowed in submission; and soon afterwards said, in a lively tone,

“Well, I have so little confidence in my own judgment, that whenever I marry, I hope some body will chuse my wife for me.

We know they fought the day before when Jane was walking back from Donwell, she takes this speech from Frank as a sign he is no longer in love with her and is weary of the engagement. Breaking it off is exactly the opposite of what a gold digger would do.

For a cross-novel comparison, look at Lucy Steele. She is also in a secret engagement, when she suspects Elinor she reveals the truth. Jane never tries to similarly mark her territory. And Jane breaks off the engagement knowing that it is her only chance at wealth. Jane also feels so guilty about lying that she's physically ill.

In conclusion, I think there is a fair bit of evidence that Jane actually loves Frank and that was the only reason she broke her moral code to be with him. Though it is certainly an added bonus that he's going to be rich.

(Note: I would use chapter numbers for my citations but the Project Gutenberg version of Emma is in volumes and it's hard to figure out the right chapter. So you can check my citations here.)

#question response #jane austen #emma #jane fairfax #frank churchill

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zoebelladona · 3 months

Note

HII i just wanted someone’s thoughts but do u think they’ll make/hint at thaluke in the show bc ik a lot of ppl bc thalia as lesbian and everyone hates the ship but i think it’s such a big part as to why luke does what he does??

i don't know tbh. i would love for them to actually give us some thaluke on the show but the way things are going... i'm still holding out for at least a whisper of it during luke's speech at the end when he betrays percy. everyone can ship what they want and platonic thaluke is just as valid (i would be a huge hypocrite if i said friendship is not enough for you to want to take down the gods). but i believe in the textual evidence (diary of luke castellan) that tells us luke had at least a bit of a crush on thalia (him almost dropping that poison when she kissed his cheek?? him admitting he does as she wills because he thinks her eyes are pretty?? come on). so if the show was following canon thaluke would be inevitable. or at the least it would come up in conversation that luke and thalia at one point had feelings for each other. if i trusted the show to actually make luke a consistent character instead of someone who switches from cartoonishly evil villain to misunderstood anti-hero depending on what chapter you're reading, i think we could get a narrative thread that actually paid off thalia as luke's motivation and also showed us her side of things. they would mean something to each other instead of thalia becoming a hunter of artemis and getting dropped by rick (with no confirmation on whether she's luke's achilles heel like annabeth is percy's or her not being allowed in the scene if his death). But as is... i don't trust the show to do anything, and if they do i don't trust them to do it in a satisfactory manner.

#also i don't subscribe to “this is widely accepted fanon so we all have to agree” lol #just because most people have decided thalia is a lesbian doesn't mean i have to accept that as fact #she can be a lesbian if you want! my thalia is demisexual #(and my reyna is aroace sorry theyna shippers)#answered #pjo show crit #pjo tv #thaluke

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jawbone-xylophone · 1 day

Text

Okay back on ep 17 of Dungeon Meshi, I just need to have (another) moment.

Holy fuck Falin is. Wow. Listen. Listen to me. Look into my eyes. I'm demisexual. For all intents and purposes of this conversation, asexual. I do not experience the roaring fires of horny lust. I think women are very grabbable and have nice textures, I generally feel an urge to kiss someone before I get ANY ideas about the horizontal tango, I have frequently described my sexuality as "mad scientist" because I just enjoy experimenting and that's where most of the fun comes from. Nowhere else.

I am over here reenacting Hellfire from The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I'm buckled over in half leaning on a wall like I got punched in the gut. I'm rewatching the episode specifically to watch Falin TPK three parties in excruciating detail.

Sure the resurrection was narratively horny and the bath scene was almost textually horny, but this? This was the narrative saying "hey so Falin's a murder monster now, you need to understand how dangerous she is" and I'm sliding to the floor insensate like I've been concussed. The horny jail cops do not have enough evidence to arrest me because I am doing nothing but staring at Dragon Woman Murder Time like I've forgotten my own body exists.

I watch shonen anime all the time, okay. I love Tokyo Ghoul. Violence and killing are cool. I watched Naruto and they were punching eachother's chests out every other episode, okay. I also look at attractive women. Women are very pretty and I appreciate them. I've even seen pretty women killing people in anime and I mostly just grinned and maybe said "hell yeah".

Is it the fact that she's a chimera??? Is that the missing ingredient? The secret recipe for making my demisexual ass feel something close to allosexual lust is pretty woman slaughtering many people (covered in blood obviously) and also being a Creature. Is that it. Is that my type.

When she started casting spells, thereby proving she is not only a dragon threat but also still a mage threat, I had to pause the episode and take a walk and pour myself a drink.

I don't even personally want to have sex with her. I mean it would probably be lovely. It's more that I just want Falin Touden, dragon lady, to slaughter hundreds of people and I need to watch. The economy of movement, the strategy in spellcasting. Just smashing people like tin cans. I need to see more.

Please help I'm so gay.

#thrak speaks #falin touden #falin dungeon meshi #dungeon meshi #my demisexual ass is not handling her well #i'm gay #help

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