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huntinglove · 11 months

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How to get away from antiship spaces (mostly)

Warnings: Long post, antis mention, mentions of pedophilia, rape, self harm and gore (none show, not descriptive)

Have you recently learned that you align yourself with the proship label? Would you like to get away from antis as safely as you can? Here's what I've learned, as an ex anti:

1. It may be hard, but try to get rid of/abandon your accounts where you used to interact with antis.

This is one of the hardest steps because having a lot of followers can be discouraging, but it's the safest approach in this situation, because if antis see you following or interacting with proshippers they WILL question you about it and depending on how you tackle their asks they'll throw you to the wolves and publicly "warn" people about you so people can mass report your account/harass you

This applies to anything; Tumblr blogs, Twitter profiles, Discord servers, if you've interacted with antis block them and delete your account if you decide to adopt the proship label

Antis constantly claim that they don't harass people but as soon as someone drops the anti label they dogpile them and call them "traitors" as well as their usual buzzwords to catch people's attention, it's better to pull the plug directly than just rebrand your account

1.5. If you REALLY want to keep your account because you've used it for a long time or because it works as a portfolio, please create a different account to post about proship content

If you make a new account remember to block your anti mutuals/followers from your main account before you start posting, art styles can be very unique and easy to spot similarities in, as well as typing patterns and reoccurring emojis/symbols

If there's the option to, keep your profile private until you've built a steady environment for yourself, if you prefer to keep your profile private permanently that's also a good option!

Remember, your safety matters more than numbers on a screen!

2. This one should go without saying but, please don't share much of your trauma/mental health issues/triggers with people online in general, but especially not with antis

I used to talk about my struggles and vent publicly a lot, antis would stalk my accounts and send me all types of fucked up content.

I've had people send me rape videos and threats, people telling me I deserved the abuse I went through, people would send me gore and self harm images, as well as suicide tutorials.

They can and will use all of it to their advantage, they're restless and will dig up even decade old posts if they feel it'll be useful for them. It can and will take a toll on your mental health, so please save yourself the trouble and only open up with people you genuinely trust and feel safe talking to!

You're not alone, but please don't let dangerous people take advantage of you when you're at a bad spot

3. Keep an eye on your followers, especially if your profiles are public. There are always some things to look out for to make sure your followers aren't antis pretending to be proshippers

According to my personal experience, here's some red flags to look out for:

A.Antis think that the word proship means problematic ship, so they'll refer to pairings as "a proship"

Most proshippers dislike this terminology because it comes from an incorrect definition and usually avoid it

B. TikTok antis specifically come up and use a lot of emoji combos, creating meanings for them and usually adding one or two combos that are actually known to proshippers, along with some never seen before

A lot of the time they use it to identify themselves, a sign that means "I'm not actually a proshipper, just baiting"

I've also seen antis use the clover emoji in combos, inspired by the "clovergender/cloversexual" scam that 4channers came up with, to make it seem like the LGBTQ+ community was welcoming to offending pedophiles. Antis do this because they assimilate the proship label with problematic ships, mostly age gaps/underage content

C. Their account is brand new but they already follow a lot of proshippers. This is usually because they'll follow proshippers who've been posted on a blocklist, usually in the exact order that they've been listed too

If they're on Tumblr, they'll usually keep the people they follow public, so that other antis can find and harass those proshippers

D. Keep an eye on their follow list. Like stated above, they'll usually keep it public and 9 times out of 10 there will be an out of place antiship account, it's most likely their main profile/account/blog

E. They'll use their usual buzzwords on their own posts

For example, if they're trying to mimic a proselfship account they'll post pictures of underage characters and caption it things like "omg i'm such a pedo" and tag their post with proship related tags

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, so it's always important to take context into consideration, as well as how many of these red flags may apply.

And lastly, please remember that the block button is your friend.

If someone's interacting with you and something about them seems/feels off, block and move on

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myfandomrealitea · 4 days

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saw ur post about going incognito into spaces and stuff and i wanted to add my own thoughts about my experience of basically being stuck in places where proshippers r hated (not against wut ur saying! i definitely agree that theres no benefits and honestly its not that fun)

the fandom that im currently in is.. very toxic. someone got harassed to the point of having to delete their account bc they "supported" a proshipper (it was literally just them saying that u shouldnt harass this person just bc theyre proship-). a lot of my friends were very supportive of this person and agreed that ppl shouldnt be harassed over shit like that and many of them seem to have similar viewpoints as me (anti harassment and all that) but prefer to stay away from that stuff

the fandom is basically ran by antis. theres a small corner that some ppl have made where they talk about proship stuff freely (love those ppl so much theyre genuinely so nice) but overall its. not the best place to be if ur proship. which is interesting to me bc theres actually a shocking amount of proshippers that just... dont say anything. on my side blog ive had multiple ppl interact that i thought were anti (or at least just. not proship in some way) but would literally go and like all my posts about incest ships of the characters.

and sometimes i think about it and how theres actually a bunch of proshippers but we're so heavily harassed and silenced that we just- dont say anything. but the fandom is small and we cant exactly separate ourselves from it if we really like the show. and i feel especially bad for some of the bigger blogs that ppl love and adore bc i know wut would happen if somehow ppl found out and made some big post or wutever.

i dont pretend to be antiship but i dont outright say im proship unless i really trust that person

im currently trying to make my own lil space with some friends so at least if anything goes wrong i at least have a few ppl but its a bit scary to think about honestly-

Although it can be full of snot-nosed superiority complexes, I do recommend using the AO3 Subreddit in order to find likeminded people for your fandom. The very vast majority of the AO3 Subreddit is proship or at least proship neutral. Antis are generally eviscerated on sight whenever they try to poke their nose into it.

If you have any other fandoms that you are active in or have friends within, there's also no harm in introducing them to your small fandom.

From what I understand the Marvel fandom did kind of the same thing you're describing with the Starker shippers, but they flourished and supported each other anyway.

I know its easy for me to simply say 'do it anyway' as someone who generally could not give a fuck about anyone's opinion of me, but honestly. Do it anyway. Form your little collective. Support each other. Learn how to write and draw and make GIFs so you feed your own portion of the fandom. You physically do not need those people, it just unfortunately takes a bit of effort and means potentially a bit less content until you start really generating your own.

Fandom spaces do not start out from nothing. Promote the shit out of your fandom. Draw people in. Comb through the proship tags and send asks to blogs like mine asking other proshippers to check out the source material.

People in small fandoms are easy to bully because you're so enclosed into this circle of the exact same people. They happen to be the majority in the room and they're weaponising it.

Force them into a bigger room.

#myfandomrealitea #sephiroth speaks #fandom #proship #proshipping #small fandom #fandom culture #fandom mentality

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meowmansion · 7 months

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My Newly Proposed Pro-ship Flag!

PS: Sorry if the image ID is bad. I don't write them much... /lh

This flag is called the "deviate flag," or "deviant [proship] flag."

A new emoji code I have made to fit this flag is 🌤️🦋.

More below the cut ^^ (Warning: long post!)

I made these flags because, to be honest, I don't connect with any other proship flags. I do like quite a lot of the flags, but I could never find one with a message I connected to the point I'd use the flag.

The meanings of the colours on the flag are as follows:

Dark green = Maturity & responsibility

Green = Creativity

Light green = Anti-abuse

Cream = The proship community as whole

Light brown = Respect for trauma survivors and those who use dark tropes in fiction to cope

Brown = Respect for artists in minorites

Dark brown = Respect for fandom history

I also chose natural colours because I thought it was a nice change of pace from all the cutesy-coloured flags! (Nothing wrong with cute, bright, colorful flags, though! I just don't personally prefer them.)

The emoji code (🌤️🦋) itself doesn't have a real meaning, I just thought it was cute.

However, over time, I've started to interpret it as this:

The sun and cloud (🌤️) represents how something so important could be hidden by something, but still exist. This is relevant because it's become apparent that modern fandom has been forgetting about early fandom culture and rules, even though these things haven't died in any way.

The butterfly (🦋) represents how one could start off as something sometimes seen as "weird" (referencing the caterpillar) only to turn into something seen as beautiful. This is relevant because I personally like to see it as how, in a lot of stories I've heard, many proshippers felt much happier and safer when they joined proship spaces (and left antiship spaces, if applicable).

The reason I chose to call it the "deviant (proship) flag" is because when I think of someone who is proship, I think of someone who is "deviant" (positive connotations) in what content they consume and create. I also think of someone who is responsible in the actions they take to share their art and interests, and has a maturity that is earned through being this sort of "deviant."

However, this flag recognizes not every proship person consumes "taboo" or "dark" content.

I have no real rules regarding this flag, just use it like you would a normal flag. Edits of this flag are allowed, and credit is appreciated but not necessary.

Feedback from fellow "proshippers" is encouraged ^^

[Image ID: A rectangular box with vibrant pink and purple colours with flower and paw print patterns in the background. White text at the top reads: "Anyone can use our terms, recoining is not necessary." White text at the bottom reads: "Flags may not be used by radqueers, sysmeds, T.R.A.S.H., or anyone whose beliefs go against the flag's general purpose." End ID]

(Edit Oct 29, 2023: Added the box thingie bc I forgot it!! Lol)

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aronarchy · 8 months

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You and alot of the youth libration posters on here: "adults need to listen children and teens and take them seriously"

Me who is trying to understand better: "I agree with that"

The overmajority of the children and teens I take to on platforms other then here: "We don't like media and stories that sexualize us in anyway"

You and alot of the youth libration posters on here for some reason: "That's bad and here's why you should ignore them"

I'm legit confused bruv

(I’ll assume you’re talking about fiction not depicting specific real-life minors here, because that is usually the topic of discussion.)

Your experiences have been very, very different from mine, then.

I’ve had a few IRL friends whom I had discussed or mentioned the topic to or vice versa when I was a child/young teenager; they were generally supportive and didn’t take issue. I met far fewer children and teens IRL who were opposed to it. (I actually can’t remember any specific incident of someone being opposed to it around me. Although that’s probably because it wasn’t really a topic of discussion much. But yeah.)

I am a minor, and I have met many, many minors online who are proship. It’s actively difficult to be a proship minor, even more difficult it is to be a proship or antiship adult, or an antiship minor, because of how we’re commonly erased, how both antis and adult(ist) proshippers like to assume we just don’t (and can’t) exist, and we are rarely listened to.

Meanwhile, the vast majority of fantis I’ve met have been adults. It’s also adults who have driven public discourse for moralizing dark fiction, and adults who lobby for and pass laws censoring art.

I knew a (fanti-adjacent) adult who sexually harassed and abused multiple minors, building his brand on being a “predator-hunter,” protecting minors. He severely stalked and harassed many people, adults and minors, perceived as sexually deviant or problematic, for long periods of time. When my friend, a minor, went public about their abuse from him, they were branded a liar by his friends and supporters, all or almost all of whom are fantis. Many were minors themselves. There were more minors supporting him than supporting my friend, because he had more supporters in general. Should I have agreed with them, because they were minors? Erased the victims?

My friend has experienced sexual harassment from a minor for being interested in “problematic” art depicting fictional CSA. That same person also harassed me, including with bigotry and suicide-baiting, for my related stances and my sexuality, and sexually objectified me (in a mostly unrelated context). Would you support him because “we need to listen to and agree with minors more”?

There have been innumerable cases of adult fantis online being caught grooming, sexually harassing, or abusing minors, including minor fantis, and running exploitative, cult-like communities. Even one (at least one, whom I remember) who raped someone IRL. It’s become almost an expected occurrence that adult fantis go around sharing the “problematic” art they call “CSEM” and make others, including survivors with PTSD who are distressed by it, and even minors, to look at porn they otherwise would not have seen. And trivializing CSEM, calling depictions of fictional characters “CSEM,” and, like what I once saw done to a friend who is a rape and CSEM survivor, being dismissive of them when they are, naturally, offended and triggered by claims that fictional material could be possibly equivalent to actual recordings of rape or abuse.

(Yes, many proshippers are CSA survivors; you can read some testimonials from them here.)

Many, maybe even most minors support the “stranger danger” myth and other adultist, authoritarian beliefs to some degree. Believing that sexual “deviants” or “degenerates” are the cause of CSA and that purging them in a fascist manner is the solution. They would likely invalidate my claims of having been abused, because most people are conditioned to downplay child abuse, even as children themselves. This dynamic is replicated with any other marginalized group. Fully liberationist beliefs are rare in general. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong, or not what we all need, ultimately. (That does not also mean it would automatically be paternalistic to disagree with someone else on what would constitute liberation or whether liberation is good.)

Many minors, like people living under a CSA culture in general, believe in victim-blaming myths like “children and teenagers wearing ‘over-sexualized’ clothing ‘tempts’ adults into sexually assaulting them; we need to promote [modesty standards for clothing] to prevent CSA.” Many people, even survivors, claim that abusers abuse because “they can’t help it,” because they lack emotional self-regulation, because they are mentally ill… or because they looked at some fiction or art depicting abuse in a not-entirely-condemnatory light, and suddenly pro-abuse beliefs magically entered their head entirely against their will, or they got “hooked” on it and developed a “porn addiction” or uncontrollable sex drive until they couldn’t help but “escalate” by attacking real-life minors, as if abusers only abused because of fiction and not from any volition of their own. As if that excuses it, or can adequately explain it away. As if that’s not an excuse SA’ers have been using for a long, long time.

Many of those minor fantis would likely defend my CSA to me, or at least try to paternalistically overwrite my own perceptions, memories, interpretations, and understandings of my experiences, because they don’t fit their preconceived narrative.

These are deeply destructive myths, harmful to minors and survivors, but they are still extremely prevalent.

Does that make them okay?

The vast supermajority of minor fantis I have encountered or observed (and a far greater proportion than among proshippers) are adultist, often violently so, and defend the nuclear family and mock me for advocating abolition, and connect their fanti stance with their adultist stances in logic and framework. They would dismiss me on the basis of my age. They think purging fiction is a sufficient solution to abuse and take issue with my efforts at more concrete activism against abuse culture within communities and political causes of abuse. They think adults should use parental controls and censor minors’ media and coerce us to not view content perceived as problematic or corrupting even if the minor does not agree to that. They either pretend minors with kinks or other “deviant” sexual interests don’t exist, or demonize us and sneer at minors’ experiences of distress and trauma from societal kinkmisia. They would help adult fantis harass proship minors and minors who view dark fiction/create “problematic” art. They play into culturally adultist notions of “childhood innocence,” adult control over youth sexuality, denial of agency, and paternalistic condescension, but also turn to aggression and overt hostility when a minor doesn’t buy into it. See, for example:

I grew up in a conservative, abusive, sexually repressive, censoring environment. Then when I first went online I encountered a ton of the same negativity. I felt a lot of shame and internalized stigma and constant self-doubt because I was worried I was somehow being immoral for enjoying dark fiction and accidentally harming myself in the long run or indirectly wronging people I care about. That was deeply detrimental to my mental health for a long time. I felt a lot of clarity and felt much safer, more validated, more comfortable existing as myself, and less self-hating when I encountered other people who did have similar views which were supportive and who were interested in pursuing the real causes of child abuse (which I didn’t really know a lot about until I started unraveling all the propaganda I had absorbed which scapegoated unrelated things, and has been immensely helpful to my understanding of my conditions and beginning my ability to advocate for myself and others), and things finally made a lot more sense (fanti views were contradictory, confusing, and I knew even when I had a lot of internalized problems that they were very wrong on some level). I also unlearned a lot of adultism in the meantime. I’m not sure where this recent trend of “antishipping is youthlib” is coming from. I’ve always only ever seen fantis promoting adultism along with their ideology, and that it’s been implicitly understood everywhere that if you support antishipping you support adultism too because they’re part and parcel.

I do believe in a standpoint epistemology, where one predicts that a marginalized group is on average much more likely to have correct opinions about issues pertaining to their oppression and blind spots generated among oppressor classes through that oppression, because of the disproportionate pressures and incentives they experience to understand more, or else they suffer more. However, this does not make me a relativist; it does not mean that I repeat “listen to and uncritically agree with whatever marginalized group X says about Y, because reality is subjective and if someone believes it they automatically can be right.” I still believe that there is objective truth, and while I try to find wherever possible where they may be blind spots in my perspective, my goal, ultimately, is still to rely on methods of evidence and logical inference. I don’t go about this in a way anywhere near how the average normie does, and they wouldn’t like my methods either. But still—I recognize, yes, that marginalized people are not monoliths, and we are not going to all agree on everything; at some point, even the privileged will have to look on and deliberate and choose what they think is true. And, sometimes, there’s a reason why one perspective is more rare on the surface (suppressed? claimed to be impossible? threatened?) than another.

Fanti communities are abusive. Fantis are abusive. I still have a lot of trauma from how individuals and groups have treated me, especially online. It was cruel. It was fucking unfair. I don’t think ritual harassment, bigotry, trying to cut someone off from resources, abuse apologia, and enforcement of authoritarian norms are somehow youth liberationist. I don’t think silencing minors or making them afraid to exist in spaces because of harmless beliefs or fictional interests is youth liberation.

This is also how many conservatives have treated fictional depictions of violence. (I can attest to that from personal experience too; that was also incredibly traumatic.) Do we have to censor GTA before we advocate against murder and torture and assault?

It feels very distressing being told that I can’t possibly support views that are important to me and my freedom of expression and in helping resolve the trauma and violence many people I care about experienced without somehow secretly or inadvertently undermining myself and other causes I care about. This paradigm keeps people trapped in toxic communities, feeling like they are being forced to choose either one or the other, which makes it easy for abusers on both sides to exploit us and then moralize against us. It’s suffocating and cruel.

I don’t just disagree with minor fantis when I encounter them. I feel triggered, afraid, threatened/in danger. I remember a whole slew of awful past incidents, and a long time feeling a lot of confusion, feeling gaslit, feeling like my whole self and existence are wrong. I anticipate hostility and possible violence toward me and people I care about. I feel angry, because I remember what people like them did to people I care about (and to me), and tried to do. I feel even more angry that people will run apologia for them and try to gaslight the rest of us into thinking there’s no problem, everything’s fine, shut up and get in line or else you’re next.

Recently, fantis effectively killed a proship CSA survivor for drawing cope art on a private account after a years-long harassment campaign. Do you think your friends would defend this? Do you think they would agree, that this is protecting children?

But this is only my perspective. I know that fantis will always have the moral and discursive advantage over me and that it would be much easier for someone to accuse me of being adultist/corrupting through this, or tokenizing myself/having internalized adultism/being predatory/a dozen other things I’ve been accused of other the years to discredit and invalidate my words which I do, in fact, sometimes worry over, as I argue with myself in my head, as I internalize gaslighting and doubt myself and wonder if I really am wrong and should just abandon trying to carve out a space for myself, to exist as myself and with dignity. It would be easier to be mad at me and think I have insidious or misguided motives or am trying to guilt-trip.

I wouldn’t even really blame you. It’s always been easier for me to blame myself.

(Except then I look around and see all the people, minors, CSA survivors, extremely traumatized and fucked-up people who’ve been badly hurt who feel doubt too who really need this activism and it doesn’t seem so hard then, does it? Cruelty is cruelty. Abuse is abuse. Trauma is trauma. Bigots can fuck right off.)

#ask #anon #late answer #shipcourse #fandom discourse #fiction discourse #ageism #adultism #proship #profic #profiction #CSA mention

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lovelybrooke · 2 months

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I want to put my two cents into the whole “ant-dark fiction” debate because I think it ultimately boils down to people not being able to understand viewpoints outside their own, ON BOTH SIDES.

Resently I saw a post of someone saying something along the lines of “please stop writing fanfics of woman being r*ped” and I saw a bunch of people in the comments and reblog a essentially saying “welp, guess tumblr isn’t for you” and I think that’s just in bad faith.

People are allows to not like fanfic the glamorizes SA, HOWEVER, on the other side, people are allowed use fanfic as a coping mechanism or a safe way to explore fantasies. I personally think that because Tumblr isnt an app like TikTok with an algorithm, meaning in order to consume content you have to search it out, I think it’s ultimately your responsibility to read tags and make sure you’re safe. You can’t police everyone because it makes you uncomfortable. On that same note, if you write dark fiction you need to recognize how putting your kinks/ fantasies out their can effect people, because contrary to popular belief, it does effect people.

I hate how Proship/ Antiship discourse has runined fandom spaces. I hate how people see the discourse as black and white, it you support this one thing you’re a terrible person, if you don’t support this one thing you’re great. I hate how the discourse has ruined fanfic as an art form and has discouraged people from using fanfic as a way of dealing with their trauma, AND I also hate how people are unwilling to recognize that the things they put onto the internet is going to effect people. Controversial take, but fiction does effect reality.

It effects reality when you put posters of your favorite character on your wall. It effects reality when you cry because your favorite character died. It effects reality when your reading fanfic or drawing fanart of your favorite character. It effects reality when you sit here on your bed writing all this shit for most people not to care. If fiction didn’t effect reality then most fiction wouldn’t be loved today. Fiction effecting reality isn’t always a bad thing, people just like to paint it that way. But it can also really harm people who might not be in good mental shape. I KNOW that yandere behaviors are bad in real life, that’s why I can read Yandere fanfiction and be perfectly fine. But there are actual people on this app acting like Yanderes, talking about how they want to hurt themselves or other people for their “love.” That is fiction effecting reality in a negative way.

Either way, I think we need to start understanding and acknowledging viewpoints outside our own. Instead of rushing to say “we’ll actually I use non-con fanfic to cope from my on SA” any time a person slightly critiques dark fiction, actually take the five seconds to understand their viewpoint and why they might be upset/ uncomfortable when you post about how badly you want to be non-coned by some hot anime boy. It’s weird, especially if you’ve gone through that first hand. It isn’t glamorous or sexy, it’s traumatizing and people are allowed to fee that way. People are also allowed to use their blog to explore dark tropes in a safe way with people that also want to explore those tropes, and commenting on a post that clearly says DEAD DOVE DO NOT EAT with “how dare you write fanfic about SA, you’re a terrible person!!!!” Is also not helpful in any way.

Tdlr: other people exist that aren’t you. They experience and deal with trauma in different ways and no one should be shamed for that. Pro/Anti-ship discourse has ruined fandom spaces forever, and fiction does effect reality and that’s not a bad thing.

#proship #antiship #pro/anitship discourse #shipping discourse #dark fiction discourse

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marchy-emmet · 6 days

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i may not be a long time follower of your content, but i definitely understand the neutral take in regards to shipping. overall the polarization of all fandoms is making me pretty exhausted, like since when have we equated fictional actions to real life morals? it’s kinda weird how people are perfectly fine with villains who willingly kill people who they don’t like, but when that same character seems like they have a “problematic” relationship with another character suddenly the entire fandom is up in arms about it. i was in the danganronpa fandom for awhile, and i didn’t like one of the popular ships because one of the scenes with the ship in it felt kinda… assault-y to me. most art of the character i liked involved that ship, but i never harrassed or begged for non ship art of that character. like i kinda get the knee jerk reaction to seeing abuse potrayed in fiction, but fiction is a place where people explore complex feelings and topics, and i wish more people understood that trying to suppress any conversation about abuse only makes things worse for artists who want to talk about these things in the light they deserve to be shown in. just because a piece of fiction depicted a sensitive topic in a way you didn’t like, doesn’t mean the artist is automatically bad. more people should understand that not every story will be to their taste.

also i am writing this ask so i can publicly express my feelings on this debate, and for anyone who was wondering, i don’t consider myself proship or antiship because both sides have lost the plot imo

I have a strange feeling it was Kiibo x Iruma- I may be completely wrong bahahha

And yes, you do have an excellent point on exploring complex feelings within fiction. I believe there was a few studies done that proved that desensitization in fiction =/= desensitization in reality, iirc?

The fact that people have to call themselves anti or proship is kinda sad in general. It creates a label, and can be used to lump people into a bigger group, which... for obvious reasons causes issues.

#asks #fandom discourse #sa mention #abuse mention

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laurasauras · 9 months

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Careful on that last post there's tons of proshippers in the notes blindly praising him

oh hon, are you lost? i really don't hide what i write!

i'm going to take you in best faith and assume you meant this as a kind heads up. i also want to assure you that this very long post is not meant to make you feel bad and please don't take it as me starting an argument with you personally. it's just something that's been on my mind lately and you've given me an excuse to articulate it!

seriously. it's not you, it's me.

i think the labels of pro/anti-shipper are very stupid and they're a very fandom-centric thing. not because people don't get up in arms about what professional authors write, because of course they do, but because when they do, they don't identify themselves as doing so exclusively on the basis of the romantic pairings in the work.

you wouldn't get someone saying "jamie x cersei writer george r r martin is bad because he wrote incest", you'd get someone saying "game of thrones is bad because it contains incest, graphic sex, rape, gratuitous violence, fantasy themes" or whatever it is they have problems with. or they might say something along the lines of "game of thrones is immoral". and that judgement is based on the work, not on martin as a person.

pro/anti is not based on a person's creative work, because people identify with these labels when they've never created fanfic/fanart. it's a personal identity. "i believe it is bad for someone to create/consume works with romantic pairings based on x" or "i believe people should be allowed to create/consume whatever they like". the "x" in that is usually incest/age gap/power inbalance of some kind, but people can come up with all sorts of things to fill in the blank.

"antishipper" is a convenient label because it isn't defined. it's like saying "moralshipper", where you never say what the morals are. those on the outside of the label are automatically bad, and those on the inside get to be anxious about whether any of their actions or thoughts are going to be called out.

it's the equivalent (and there's a large overlap here) of having a pinned post saying "freaks dni" or "dni if you're a, b, c, or any of the other bad things". it's the safe thing to do, because you can't get called out for forgetting to publicly declare that you don't want racists to interact with you, but it's also an exercise in anxiety.

not for the people who label themselves as proshippers or gladly fly the freak flag! those people either block (sensible) or argue (pointless) or hatefollow (genuine self harm), but they don't panic about the fact that they're being excluded. they might feel sad and they might have anxiety over the potential of being included on a blocklist or callout post, but they know who they are. no, those posts--and to an extent the label of antishipper itself--create an "in" group. and wherever there's an "in" group and those inside hate the "out" group, those inside either Don't Think About It or they live in fear of being kicked out.

and the same is probably true of some proshipper circles. some people would view a member having a personal squick as a betrayal of the group.

by putting a label on it, you're making it into a club.

that's my criticism of the labels. there is some horrific bullying behaviour on both sides, so i won't bother to criticise that. if you think it's okay to tell someone they should hate themselves or they should be harmed due to their opinions, i don't want to be your friend. i don't think that is ever productive. the only thing it does is make the person saying that kind of thing feel that they have done their civic duty. it doesn't change minds, it doesn't soothe victims, it's just nasty.

in terms of what the labels represent, here are my main criticisms of antishipping (because proshipping is defined as "not antishipping" so is useless to talk about). and i'm focusing on incest here because it's easiest to choose one thing rather than go broad:

it implies that it's impossible for a work of fiction to be about a topic without also condoning it.

it states that liking or disliking a work of fiction is a moral action. by liking something, you are actively doing something bad. by disliking something, you are actively doing something good.

it specifically fixates on the ship--i already mentioned this, but it bears repeating. two siblings kissing is not allowed; explicit torture is, so long as it's not tied to a romantic relationship.

it talks about "normalising" concepts, and to normalise is apparently to make them acceptable in wider society. which is ridiculous:

because if incest didn't exist before supernatural shippers, we wouldn't have had a word for it;

because fanfiction is not something that the majority of wider society is aware of, let alone consuming;

because there are 33,509 fics in dean/sam (supernatural) as of the time of posting, and i promise you that none of those authors are kissing their siblings because they enjoyed writing about fictional brothers kissing. i promise you. because ...

because incest is a very real and very illegal and very fucking bad thing. the vast majority of incest is paedophillic and rape. the vast majority of the offenders are not reading fanfiction. they did not learn that incest existed because of fiction and decide that it was an okay thing to do to someone else. the argument that they would is fucking insane.

it can be comforting to say "people who consume this kind of media are bad, and i don't consume that media so i'm not bad."

it can be comforting to say "i don't associate with anyone who consumes this kind of media, so i am not in danger of being hurt."

it can be comforting to say "by saying that i'm an antishipper / proshipper / terf / terf hater / whatever in my bio, i am signalling to those on the outside of my group that they are unwelcome on my blog and unwelcome in society. i am cleansing my space and the world of those people."

and it's all bullshit.

it doesn't matter.

here's a list of things that you can do that do have a positive impact in the world:

plant a tree. call your mum. smile at the baby in the line in front of you. attend local council meetings and advocate for equality. start a book club. compliment someone's art and reblog it. learn how to say thank you in your country's sign language. buy your mate a coffee. assume people are trying their best. put your pronouns in your email signature. take your dog for a walk. write a story that will make someone feel something.

just be kind.

#fandom wank #long post #discourse #tagging those for people who block them not seeking to be found #i'm a small blog please be cool

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olderthannetfic · 1 year

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I get annoyed with people who were/are on the fringes of pro/antiship bullshit and come away with "proshippers are the problem! I never even seen someone with anti in their blog header!"

Like. What the fuck do you think the proshipper is there in the first place??? And I know people who say this are most likely ones who've come across a proshipper that's candid about their bad wrong kink. Or if it's the newer landscape, a Twitter discourse addled reactionary, that I doubt even knows what Tumblr is, punching shadows somehow with the wrong technique whilst having a bad wrong kink. Sidenote: Astounding to me how widespread the discourse is but still a untraversable niche degraded by time.

It's so bizarre because you would think the common topics the keep popping in the fandom arguments which are usually accusations of child predation or wanting to endanger a child or condoning sexual abuse of all kinds would automatically make a person go "Don't do that". But nope. The person with bad wrong kink talking on their blog about bad wrong kink is just as much wrong because... ? Make you Uncomfortable? Okay, but you saw the accusations that don't make sense right?

If I'm being ultra forgiving and think that these people on the fringes just want to keep the YA style criticism of "supporting abuse and toxic relationships and teens very very dumb How could you author" I still am annoyed. Because how can you see harassment to the level of cruel and unusual and not prioritize it? Especially if it's done by minors?? It's dangerous? Unhealthy?

Do they literally just see bad takes and an uppity proshipper who knows this is pointed bullshit ( and is usually right that it's pointed bullshit) and just think "Wow, that person was wrong but this one is being slightly rude about it,I bet they're into some weird stuff" and just never comment on bad take.

I'm so fucking annoyed.

It's because they aren't on the fringes: They're people who've been trained to see anti-kink assumptions about Bad Fiction Leads To Predators as normal. They believe the weak version and don't personally bully, so they don't think of themselves as antis.

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colored-comas · 4 months

Text

No Rest For The Innocent.

" Falling asleep usually leads into dreaming or darkness, and thats held close as relief. Calming, safe, and wanted...

Though, for some, when they slip into sleep?

It's not the same peace and relaxation.

For some, it's a reenactment.

A WarZone for others.

Never getting to feel the grip of sleep, instead only waking into alternative realities. Replaying the familiar scrips of their own stories, beloved creativity and creation. Turning sour as they're forced to live it's story out at night.

Writing, recording, all expressions leading into those hellish nights.

Leaving,

No Rest For The Innocent. "

Colored Comas. Prequel, Completed.

Upwards Bound. Early Story, WIP.

WarZone.

No Rest For The Innocent.

After Hours.

HellBent.

[ TBC ]

While this is not the main or core part of the story, I feel the need to address it before continuing on:

This story covers incredibly dark topics, the storylines and characters are reflections and/or projections of the people writing the story. We do not support nor glorify any dark topics such as abuse, child experiments, or forms of extreme violence and harm. It's all in the name of fiction, or things that the authors are projecting from our own bad experiences.

This story is not aimed for those under 15 years of age, it includes dark and serious topics, possible adult content, and themes of harm. Be careful and take care of yourself, please.

The authors of this story are all 18 and older, despite the story not being focused on such themes mentioned above, they do appear within the text at times. Thank you.

Authors Info:

❤️Zachary Torres, he/it, age 19. @warpaint-sys

🩶Hosuh M., they/she, age 21.

💜Stephen Zhou, he/it/xe, age 19.

💚Beccah Scott, she/they, age 20.

🧡Cole Seiler, they/she/he, age 21.

🩷Kelly Basset, she/her, age 18.

🩵Siren Rae, he/void/xei, age 19. @siren--squid

🤍Sam Tamayo, it/he/they, age 20. @sammy--moh

Main Characters:

Adam Dyam. ☀️

Star Zhou. 🌟

Tyler Elijah. 🦇

Barney Yavuz. 🍃

Rory Brooks. 🌧

Maxwell Lewis. 🔥

Michael Sawyer. 🌈

Tobias Evans. 📺

Side Characters:

That would make this list so long.

Spotify Playlists for the characters!

Adam.

Star.

Ty.

Barney.

Rory.

Max.

Mike.

Tyler. { Side Character! }

Ramen. { Background Character! }

Songs are added either based on the character vibe, or we have connected the lyrics to the characters story!

DNI - proship, antiship, endogenic community, under age 15, believe in personality disorder abuse, and basic criteria you've read everywhere else.

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redcliffed · 9 months

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How do you enjoy black butler (a story where children are assaulted, violated and murdered) and be antiship?? /gen

first of all calling me antiship just cuz i don’t like proshippers is wild and i fully reject the proship/antiship binary because it’s stupid and both sides need to go outside and experience the joy of god’s creation. i am just chilling with my toxic yuri leave me out of that shit

second of all i don’t see how me not wanting a very specific demographic of weirdos to interact with my blog has any standing on the media i enjoy. like yeah bad things happen to kids in black butler. what does that have to do with shipping discourse. i understand there are weird things pandering to weird demographics in the series but that’s not a core pillar of the plot and ultimately proshippers and i are getting very different things out of this story and i don’t want to see the content they produce. my opinion on chronically online ship discourse doesn’t affect my ability to consume dark media or engage with media i also take issue with lol

#i’ll elaborate on my opinions on shipping discourse if need be #but i think calling urself antiship is stupid af and i’ve never called myself that. the other side is just objectively worse lol #and black butler isn’t even close to the darkest media i like have u seen my letterboxd #asks

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oscconfessions · 3 months

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To the anon who made the anti-ship ask, I agree with you on some level.. but also don't?

Now, I’ll give you credit. I do personally enjoy most wlw stuff from the osc. So I might have some baises here. I do get where you're coming from when it comes to shipping.

But at the same time, I think the reason you don't see that many anti shippers in the tumblr/twt community is because most antishippers in the osc (Who doesn't actually even use that title) are 10 year old boys on some big osc youtubers community tag.

And a lot of oscyt who do fall under the line of anti shippers are just very immature individual who are stuck in the echochamber known as the community tab of youtube who would most likely be as immature if they were shippers) but that still doesn't help out in the image

Basically most anti shippers in the osc don't actively want to critique and rant on ships like you do, most osc anti shippers don't really know how to even analyze the writing (Ex. "team that loses = bad writing")

TLDR: Anti-ship discoursein the osc, (FROM WHAT I KNOW) is very very stupid and usually very very petty

I do agree with you the more shippy sides of the osc are very allergic to non-ship dynamics, but

*Epic cowboy hat going down*

Look, I've been in the same situation as you, so many characters I like get stripped down to some basic garbage personality, tha lacks the nuance they have in canon. And then it’s all I see of them, I only see people portray them that one way and I can’t escape it. I feel it’s also shoved down my face.

But now, and this is where you might lose me, and where my take might become ass.

IF you want anti-ship osc content you need to make it yourself, even with all the haters.

I wanted more content that noticed the characters actual personality, so I started posting analises, I wanted to find people who shared my takes so I started looking around for people(THIS was actually way easier due to me making content, since those people KNEW my takes)

I'm sorry to say it, but people who like shipping all the characters together won't suddenly stop posting that content or posting more platonic content of osc characters because you don't like ships. Whilst it sucks that you feel like you have a place in the osc, a lot of the people came here wanting to ship stuff, a lot of people enjoy doing that just as much as you enjoy antishipping

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY

If you want more platonic osc content, if you want MORE anti ship content you'll need to make it yourself, if you want to stop having ship content down your tags then block as many ships you know of. (Again I'll give you credit this ain't fool proof), Your confession is true I do agree with it. I know you might feel forced to ship things, but I’m telling you right now as a person who's been in a lot of /fandoms that are big on shipping, no one is forcing you. And I think you understand that. But forcing yourself to like shipping isn't good. But then again I can't really blame you (god this is way to long)

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, If you want to have a space for platonic osc dynamics THEN YOU CAN’T EXPECT PEOPLE WILL MAGICALLY KNOW YOU WANT THAT IF YOU DON’T TELL THEM. I’m sorry to say this (because I’ve done this before) But especially on the internet people don’t know what you want.

And looking at the response your ask got, THERE IS A AUDIENCE FOR IT. Even if it isn’t big, people do want to see that!

YOU KNOW WHAT! If you make a blog or whatever about divorces and platonic osc dynamics, I will be your number one supporter! KEEP ON DESTROYING RELATIONSHIPS, GO FOR IT! HAVE FUN!

- a certified yapper (PS TO any people who are really into shipping who would attack this person for having a blog about antishipping, your as bad as the oscyt 10 year olds)(I sorry if this is mean I'm going insane, have a lovely life etc))

#confession #osc

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