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menalez · 2 years

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[literally have boyfriends]

stuff like this physically hurts me. There’s absolutely no reason to do this. ppl can call me a boot licker or a self hating bi but I just don't like lesbophobia. Lesbians have always let us into their spaces and supported us, I'm talking about the majority lesbian community and organizations not the one lesbian that was mean to you in high school. so when stuff like this happens it's just feels like we're backstabbing them. we’re a big group and when we never call out the lesbophobia from our own it makes us seem like we: don’t care, we support it, or we don’t listen to lesbians. I just don’t get why some of us act like letting this happen won’t ever affect us. It’s also just wrong to do this or never do anything about it. We can blame it on not having a community but that doesn’t stop you from saying homophobia is wrong. Bisexuals during the gay rights movement were even more opressed than most of us today but they still spoke out against it. You can blame it on fake bis and yeah they are homophobic but the bi community isn’t just fake bis.

I relate more with lesbians because I’m like 90% woman attracted. Even though I relate to them more I'd never call myself a lesbian because that isn’t right. Lesbians don't like men that’s it there’s no debate.

Lesbians spaces are the only places were u can escape men, and express ur attraction to women, bi spaces always turn into porny sites or center around men ahem shybi. I don’t know why but even though we’re a bigger demographic we can never create our own spaces and keep them together. A lot of bi women rely on the lesbian community. so if lesbians do decide they’re fed up with us and kick us out bi women are we’re left with bi men who are still men and are sexists and misogynistic, they also tend to be annoying edge lords. Straight people don’t care about us and even at worst hate us. The trans community is well you know. There are the mogais or queers and no thank you. OSA leaning bi women for the most part don’t care about LGB topics because it doesn’t really affect them. So now we have the smaller and much more marginalized SSA leaning bis that are on their own.

It just seems like we’re dead set on ruining our relationship with the only other group of women that understands us. I see all the mspec lesbians, polilez and how so many bi women talk about how lesbians are opressors even though it’s impossible for them to oppress us. If you ever try to call out a lesbophobic bi other bis will jump on you call you a “pick me” and blame lesbians for them being lesbophobic and I just don’t get why some of us are like this. Bi women can cope all you want but we all see lesbians getting tired of this. Being bi is already isolating but if this keeps going on it’s going to get worse.

Sorry for the rambling I just needed to vent to someone.

i agree on not understanding why many bi people don't see how this also can negatively impact bi people. i mean for one, isnt that an example of bi erasure!? i hear the term used a lot by bi ppl when it comes to like fictional lesbian characters who had any kind of past with a man, or women like sappho who some argue is bi because she wrote that shes dating a man with a name thats basically "ActualMan BigDick" or sth, among other arguments... but when it comes to actual bi people, who are saying theyre literally into the opposite sex but have a strong preference for the same sex, its just... radio silence? when frankly thats one of the biggest and most prevalent examples of bi erasure i can think of!

idk anything about shybi so i cant comment on it, but thats unfortunate if bi spaces do often turn into that. i hope that changes one day because i can't imagine such spaces feel welcoming to many bi women.

i do hope one day this lesbophobia will be a thing of the past and that we can truly group together and be allies to each other.. but honestly at this point im quite hopeless on any of it. i cant imagine reaching a solid common ground :/

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watermelonlovershigh · 3 years

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Bisexual Harry (MILD SMUT w/ MOSTLY FLUFF)

ATTENTION- THIS IS STRICKLY FICTIONAL (NOT REAL). I'M FULLY AWARE THAT HARRY HAS NOT CAME OUT AS BISEXUAL AND WANTS TO BE UNLABLED. I ENJOY BI HARRY FANFICS BUT THERE ARE NOT MANY OUT THERE SO I DECIDED TO WRITE ONE. ALSO THE TRAITS I WILL BE CONCIDERING AS BISEXUAL TRAITS ARE FULLY DEPENDENT ON THE INDIVIDUAL. I HATE STEREOTYPING. JUST KEEP IN MIND THAT JUST BECAUSE HARRY DOES THESE THINGS IN THIS STORY THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE SOMEONE BISEXUAL OR EVEN GAY. LASTLY I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT I'M NOT BISEXUAL MYSELF BUT THE IDEA OF BEING WITH A MAN WHO IS, IS A TURN ON. NOT IN A FETISH TYPE WAY. JUST THE VULNERABILITY AND OPENNESS OF ENJOYING EITHER WOMEN OR MEN IS INCREADIBE TO ME. THANK YOU AND I HOPE YOU ENJOY.

Harry told me early on into our relationship that he was bisexual. He was so nervous that I would leave him, but it just made me fall more in love with him. He told me late one night about 6 months into dating, on his couch. The second he told me, Harry broke down into real raw tears. The first time I'd seen Harry actually cry. Yeah I'd seen him cry during sappy movies but this was so much more than that. These tears had fear in them. Fear that I would leave him. They had vulnerability in them for being so open. But also a weight was lifted off his chest, just happy to tell me. I held Harry in my arms and cried with him, telling him how much I loved him and that this doesn't change anything. That I loved him just as much.

Only a few people in Harrys life knew he was bisexual. His close family. His close friends. That was it. If it got out in the media, the internet would have gone wild. Of course there were many rumors about his sexuality. Most of them being that he's gay. For the longest time he actually thought he might be gay. He had a lot of 'gay tendencies': painted nails, feminine clothes, pearl necklaces. But he also had very 'mainly tendencies' like watching football and drinking beer with the lads. Harry was just so conflicted all his life. Not knowing what he was. That's until the age of 18. One of his school friends came out as bisexual and that's when it clicked for him. He liked both male and females and he was okay with that. He excepted that part of him. He was more worried about what others would say or think. His family was very supportive. His friends were too. They never treated Harry differently knowing that they were straight and he was sexually attracted to them. Well not so much them specifically because they were more like brothers, but the male species as a whole.

Being in sexual relationships were on a new level of fear for Harry. Fear that when he was having sex with a guy, that the guy would try and convince him he's actually just gay. Or the fear that any women he had sex with would say he wasn't manly enough for them. Needless to say, Harry kept his sexuality a secret from most of his one night stands or short term relationships. He just didn't feel the need to tell them unless they asked specifically if he was bi or not.

Me and Harry meet at a local club in London a few years back. He was with his bandmates at the time. I was by myself because my boyfriend of 2 years just broke up with me. I was devastated and needed to escape reality. That meant drink until my body went numb. Unfortunately for me though, I wasn't that much of a drinker so my body rejected the alcohol pretty fast. I stumbled onto the London streets trying to get fresh air but ended up puking my guts out in a near by bin. Harry just so happened to be outside at that moment and saw the whole thing before his eyes. He rushed over to me and pulled my hair back to prevent more vomit from getting in it. Then he asked if I was alright and who I was with. I told him I came there alone so he insisted I come back to his place. Because my brain was fuzzy from the alcohol, I didn't hesitate one bit. Harry set up his guest room for me and helped me to bed that night. Something I'm forever grateful for. If it wasn't for him, I could've been kidnapped and raped by a stranger on the streets. When I woke up the next day, I realized who's house I was in. All of the music awards on the shelf in the room I stayed in gave it away. I was never a big fan of One Direction, no reason in particular, so I didn't act like a fangirl would have. Before I left his house, he gave me his number to call if I ever needed someone to talk to. Considering he was an international popstar and all, he sure was the most genuine person I'd ever meet. Taking care of a complete stranger and even giving them his phone number. I never thought I'd actually call him though. Or even see him again, but about a week later, I ran into him at a local coffee shop and we started talking form there. The rest was history.

We hung out all the time. He invited me to a few One Direction concerts. Even had sex a few times. Amazing sex I might add. It truly was great. Even though at the time, I had to remain secret from the public. More so said by Harry then his management. Mainly to keep me safe and out of the media knowing how private I liked to be. Three months of seeing each other and he asked me to be his girlfriend. I was thrilled. Then six months into our relationship, Harry realized how serious our relationship was becoming. That we both had strong feeling for each other. So that's when Harry decided to tell me he was bisexual. On his couch. Late one night. He wanted to get it out of the way so he didn't have to hide that part of himself with me. So he could be himself around me. If I excepted him that was and of course I did.

Approximately two years after dating, Harry purposed. He was basically shitting bricks the whole time, but he did it. I didn't hesitate one second before I said yes. We were in love. At this point, the media had found me and Harry out. Most of his fans adored me. Some said our relationship was fake. And others just flat out said I was keeping Harry closeted, not allowing him to be gay. But I knew the truth. I knew he was bisexual, not gay. I never doubted his sexuality one bit. Especially how he devoured my body when we made love. Any gay person would probably gag at the sight of a women's pussy. Not Harry. It was his favorite part of my body. A year after Harry filmed the movie Dunkirk (2017), we got married. It was a small wedding. Just close family and friends invited. It was perfect.

Now here we are in the current year of 2021 and we're still going strong. A few fights here and there, but because both Harry and I have too big of hearts, we always feel bad after fighting and immediately apologize to one another. The media had tried to split us up multiple times but it's never been successful. Our love for each other is too strong and everlasting.

Just because Harry is in a happy, loving heterosexual relationship, doesn't mean he feels completely secure about his sexuality all the time. In the beginning of our relationship, Harry tried to completely throw away any 'bisexual' tendencies he had even though he knew I supported him. For instance, there was many times Harry wanted to paint his nails but didn't. Or would refrain from gushing over sexy guys in movies we watched together. That's when I noticed he was becoming depressed. He stopped writing music. He would disengage in activities we tried to do together. Even pushed me away when I tried to have sex with him. I felt hopeless. Until one morning I asked him what was wrong, and he spilled everything. How he tries so hard to suppress the bisexual side of his character for me. For our relationship. Harry explained that he had the desire to paint his nails vibrant colors and wanted to wear feminine clothes sometimes. Something that was particularly hard for Harry to confess to me was how he even wanted to try anal. On me or me with a strap on fucking him. Right away I made us an appointment to get our nails done at a salon. Then I told him he could wear a trash bag and he'd still be the most beautiful mainly man I'd ever seen. Lastly, I grabbed my laptop and went online shopping for female strap ons, letting Harry pick the girth and size he wanted. Yes I was a little nervous to actually fuck him, but he assured me he would help me out every step of the way. As for anal on me, I mentioned how I would be nervous but how I also trusted him. Trusted him enough to penetrate me anally. That I knew he would be extra careful with me.

Needless to say, I made Harry more confident. Confident in his sexuality. I got him to come out as bisexual to the public. I let him explore his bisexuality in the bedroom. Though of course he still worshiped my pussy. We had weekly appointments to get our nails painted. Harry even wore a dress out to a date night one night. He was super scared and on edge the whole night but I kept whispering in his ear how I couldn't wait to rip that dress off of him and fuck him in the ass until he cried out of pleasure.

I honestly loved that Harry was bisexual. It was almost like a turn on for me. He was both a gym buff and my little princess. He had thick arm muscles and toned abs, as well as pink nails and pearl necklaces. Anytime he mentioned how hot a guy on tv was, we could gush over him together. Or how sensitive and vulnerable he was at times. A lot of guys hold in their emotions, thinking men can't express their feelings, but not Harry. If he felt the need to cry, he would. Right in front of me. It could be triggered by a sad movie or a animal abuse commercial. Also, on the rare occasions he asks for it, I would fuck him with the strap on in his mouth. Though a rubber penis didn't quite taste like the real thing, salty mixed with sweat, he loved to deepthroat it anyways. Watching him choke and gag around the fake penis made my pussy drip. We even bought a strap on dildo that had a vibrator on the back side of it. That way every time the fake cock would enter his mouth, the vibrator would stimulate me clit, giving me pleasure as well.

No matter how much the media tried to convince Harry he was in fact gay and didn't actually like women, he would ignore the rude comments and prove to me everyday that he in fact loved me. Me as a women. Loved my smile. Loved me eyes. Loved the way my boobs bounced while having sex. Often grabbing them in his hands and stimulating my nipples. Loved the way my tight pussy felt around his dick. Or the way my sweet juices tasted on his tongue when he ate me out. Yes he loved dick. Yes he loved balls. Yes he loved being railed to death from behind. But he also liked vagina and he loved boobs. Harry wanted to make love to me and get me pregnant. Watch my stomach grow. Be there to hold my hand when I deliver the baby. Help change diapers at 3 am when I'm to tired to do so. Teach our kids to love and respect everyone and be themselves. Be open to our kids about his sexuality. Give them knowledge on bisexuality and educate them on the matter. Instead of assuming they are straight by asking his future son if he has a girlfriend yet or asking his daughter if she has a boyfriend, Harry will ask if the have a partner or fancy anyone in particular. Love his children for who they are or who they want to become. Be a role model for them. And live happily ever after with me, his supportive wife, by his side.

MASTERLIST

#bisexual #lgbtq #lgbtq+#bi #biharry #biharrystyles #bifanfiction #smut #fluff #love #married #harrystyles #harry #onedirection #1D #1d #husband #wife

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introvertguide · 3 years

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Bonnie and Clyde (1967); AFI #42

The next film that we covered for the group was the period true- crime drama, Bonnie and Clyde (1967). It is the story of the notorious Barrow gang, led by Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker, during the American Great Depression. This film features a cavalcade of some of Hollywood's biggest actors including Warren Beatty, Faye Dunaway, and Gene Hackman. It is supposedly quite accurate because some of the witnesses and even a couple of the gang members of the actual crimes were still alive during the production of the film. Actress Estelle Parsons won Best Supporting Actress for he portrayal of Blanche Barrow, which I would like to comment on. I also want to speak a little to the accuracy of the story, but first I want to spoil the plot of the film.

SPOILER WARNING!!!! I AM GOING TO REVEAL THE WHOLE MOVIE SO I CAN COMPARE TO WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT THE ACTUAL HISTORY!!! THE MOVIE AND THE REAL LIFE STORY WILL BE SPOILED COMPLETELY!!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!

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In the middle of the Great Depression, Clyde Barrow (Warren Beatty) and Bonnie Parker (Faye Dunaway) of Texas meet when Clyde tries to steal the car belonging to Bonnie's mother. Clyde had spotted Bonnie hanging out in her room naked from the heat, and she spotted him watching her and was intrigued by the danger. Bonnie is bored by her job as a waitress, which Clyde correctly guesses, and decides to take up with him and become his partner in crime. They pull off some weak crimes including a bank heist at a location that has been hit by the depression and there is no money. Clyde actually makes the teller come out to the escape car and tell Bonnie what the deal is and she just laughs at the situation.

The pair find an extra man in a worldly ignorant but mechanically inclined gas station attendant named C.W. Moss (Michael Pollard). Clyde apparently has a way with words because people just join him for no real reason besides being bored. Clyde's older brother Buck (Gene Hackman) and his wife, Blanche (Estelle Parsons), a preacher's daughter, also join them. The two women dislike each other at first sight because Bonnie thinks that Blanche will ruin their fun (she does) and Blanche believes that Bonnie is evil and wants to get rid of her (she does). Keep in mind while watching this that Estelle Parsons won the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress for this portrayal.

Bonnie and Clyde turn from pulling small-time heists to robbing banks since they now have a full gang. Their exploits also become more violent when C.W. comically botches a bank robbery when he sees an open parking spot and decides to parallel park. He can't get out of the space quickly and he delays their escape, forcing Clyde to shoot the bank manager in the face when he jumps onto the slow-moving car's running board. The gang is pursued by law enforcement, including Texas Ranger Frank Hamer (Denver Pyle), whom they capture and humiliate by taking his photo and setting afloat on a little dingy on a nearby river.

The group likes to switch out cars because they treat the getaway vehicles very rough. When they are seen stealing a car by its owner, a young man named Eugene Grizzard (Gene Wilder) and his girlfriend Velma Davis (Evans Evans), the robbed couple attempt to follow the stolen car. The gang stops and takes the couple hostage in the chase car and even pull over to get some burgers. They let the couple go when they find out they are in their 30s (too old apparently) and find a roadside stop. A raid later that night catches the outlaws off guard, mortally wounding Buck with a shot to his head and injuring Blanche so she can't see. Bonnie, Clyde, and C.W. barely escape alive. With Blanche sightless and in police custody, Hamer tricks her into revealing C.W.'s name, which they use to find any safe places where the remaining gang might go (until then, C.W. was only an "unidentified suspect").

Hamer locates Bonnie, Clyde, and C.W. hiding at the house of C.W.'s father Ivan (Dub Taylor), who thinks the couple have corrupted his son (as evidenced by an ornate tattoo that Bonnie convinced C.W. to get). The elder Moss strikes a bargain with Hamer: in exchange for leniency for the boy, he helps set a trap for the outlaws. When Bonnie and Clyde stop on the side of the road to help Mr. Moss fix a flat tire, the police in the bushes open fire and riddle them with bullets. Hamer and his posse come out of hiding and look pensively at the couple's bodies as a nearby flock of swallows fly away.

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This film stood out as it was a comical version of the super violent gangster films that were popular in the 30s. Storywriters David Newman and Robert Benton wanted to punch up the violence with a romantic undertone so they sent the script to French New Wave director Francois Truffaut for contributions. Warren Beatty was visiting Paris and heard about the project then decided he wanted to produce the picture. He was going to have his sister, Shirley MacLaine, play the roll of Bonnie until he decided that he was going to play the part of Clyde. That would have been really awkward, so he tried find a lead actress that he could have a romantic scene with. Many actresses were approached and Faye Dunaway was eventually chosen for the part.

Beatty decided that they needed an American director and offered that job to a plethora of established directors in Hollywood and finally landed on Arthur Penn even after he turned down the position multiple times. What it all comes down to is that not a lot of people wanted to be part of this production. It was considered somewhat of a risky art film at the time because of the questionable sexuality of Clyde and the heavy violence.

So what was so risky? Looking at films that were made only a few later, this seems rather tame. This film came out just a little before the MPAA was established and the writers had been influenced by the French films that didn't have the same restrictive film rules that were present in the United States. It was originally proposed that Clyde be played as bisexual, but the script eventually called for him to be more asexual. The real Clyde Barrow had been sexually assaulted in prison so he would have been scarred by that experience and might not have been interested in Bonnie in that way. This depth into a character's sexuality had generally been avoided in American cinema before this film and there was concern about audience reactions. They shouldn't have worried because the movie was a sleeper hit, eventually making $75 million on a $2.5 million budget.

The number of graphic murders actually shown on screen (especially when Clyde shot a guy in the face who jumped on the car during a get away) was unprecedented at the time. There was also some dismay by critics about the portrayal of Bonnie as sleazy and the whole gang as somewhat stupid. These were a bunch of uneducated folks that grew up in a time when it was more important to find a job. They were smart enough to avoid capture for years, which is shown in the movie, so they had to have some sort of intelligence.

There is a little bit of an elephant in the room with this movie and it involves the historical accuracy. The dates and crimes are well documented and a lot was known about the characters when the movie was produced. However, a major part of the movie was speculation and fabrication about the personalities in the gang. The characters that were based on living people at the time were actually the least accurate as C.W. Moss was a fictional person based on two different gang members (one who was still alive) and the actions of Blanche Barrow were based on a different member of the gang. The real Blanche Barrow lived until the 1980s and famously complained that Parsons's portrayal "made [her] look like a screaming horse's ass!" Parsons is the one the went on to win Best Supporting Actress.

This film was much more enjoyable for me on second watch. The first viewing left me hating the character of Blanche and I wondered if there was some sort of conspiracy to get that actress an Oscar. On second view, I realize that she was necessary to be a foil to the gang. There had to be a weak link in the chain and the audience knew that she would be the downfall of the group. Her presence made the police encounters all the more intense because there was this crazy wild card that could ruin everything at any time. It really adds a touch of comedy along with a bigger element of suspense. She is annoying, but enjoyable, and the people around her react to her behavior in a realistic way, so I appreciate what the character brings to the table.

I would highly suggest looking into the real life of Bonnie and Clyde along with the whole Barrow Gang because they took major advantage of the Great Depression banks, but not so much the suffering people. To some, the members of the Barrow gang were considered celebrities or even heroes because they were getting back at the banks that had mishandled so many people's money. I started my search off with this nice article on the Encyclopedia Britannica site and dug deeper to find out more about the connections between the real people and the film:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Bonnie-and-Clyde-American-criminals

So does this film belong on the AFI top 100? I absolutely think so. It has some connections to French New Wave, but it is American directed with American actors and it tells the story of some of the most notorious criminals in American history. It is also a very good film that won Oscars and was a box office success. Bonnie and Clyde are part of Americana and were almost the equivalent of a Robin Hood character to many at the time. Would I recommend this film? I would. Keep an eye out for the Blanche character because she can be annoying, but know she serves a purpose and the movie is not all about her. The connection between Bonnie and Clyde is epic and has influenced a lot of American films, so enjoy it for the cinematic quality, the history in film, and the history of the United States.

#bonnie and clyde #true crime #crime drama #warren beatty #faye dunaway #introvert #introverts #classic cinema #AFI top 100 #crime couples #famous criminals

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wanderingpages · 4 years

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okieee I love sarahs books but My GoD I really hate how she hooks them all with "our main girl celaena/feyre/bryce is a Completely Normal Girl with No Special Traits" but then by the end its like. celaena is aelin is the most powerful fae in pretty much all of existence. feyre technically was a normal girl but also the mate to one of the most powerful fae and had all sorts of powers beyond normal fae from when they brought her back. bryce has just been keeping her powers secret her whole life(1)

but actually has powers stronger than fae have had in centuries despite being a half human fae. and the plot is great, yeah, nobody can ever tell when the twists are coming, but it just destroys the whole narrative. she hooks us with the normal girl Just Like Us who can change the world, but at the end of the day they aren't. they all have some kind of immense power that sets them apart and is the only reason they even survive the Big Bad. (2)

and not to say that I hate the books, bc I love them! and they've all made me cry, but each time I really feel like I could relate to a girl in a world against her who can change the world without anything special, we get a girl whose set apart by powers literally NOBODY else has. and idk it kinda ruins the whole sentiment, like no i can't change the world because I dont have anything special about me (3)

and yeah, its fiction, and we don't have fae or witches or magic abilities, but its still supposed to be relatable and empowering, even if supernatural. and i CAN escape into a fictional world to read about badass women with unique abilities with no problem bc i love the stories and characters, but it takes away the magic of "oh, I could change the world too," that comes w other books. (oop I probably should have put a SPOILERS somewhere sorry) (4?5? idk)

First and foremost, you can do absolutely anything you put your mind to idgaf I appreciate you and I don’t know you but I’m rooting for you. I will literally support you in absolutely anything except maybe murder all you have to do is ask. Fuck these white hoes 👀

Okay I’ll start off by saying, sjm can write, no one can take that from her. But her MO is definitely white girls with mad power. Oh and they’re fae. For absolutely no reason. Listen I love myself some good faerie books but it completely takes away the coolness of being a fae if you actually can lie and glamours aren’t real and iron doesn’t hurt you and you have massive amounts of power. Having next to no weaknesses makes you a boring hero. I loved feyre in the first novel becuase she had no powers and she still came off as a bad bitch defeating all her trials. I loved celaena way more than aelin also becuase of that shift in power. Like I absolutely enjoyed them over coming their almost otherworldly struggles with human/mundane tactics. That was sexy af. None of that I am a god bs unless u Megan Fox and abt to EAT me. Actually if aelin was not fae at that point that line would have had way more impact on me now that I think about it. Imagine that?? Human girl saying that shit??? Big dick energy.

It is though, still only the first book so idk maybe something will shift? I understand what you mean that it’s fantasy but even that should have an ounce of realistic qualities for the readers enjoyment. (Also whats her beef with humans lmao always so fucking repressed. Fae aint shit man)

#asks #book talk #hoeab #never realized how much i actually had to rant abt #until i deleted like three paragraphs that had nothing to do with what you were saying lol #spoilers #i guessss #say what yall want abt bella swan but sis still wasnt the most powerful vampire at the end of it

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fillorian-pocketwatch · 4 years

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The Makings and Fate of Quentin Coldwater: What Were the Writers Thinking?

Trigger warnings: Quentin Coldwater, seasons 4 and (briefly) 5, mentions of suicide/suicidal ideation, outdated ideas about the purity of women.

General warnings: Spoilers for the show and the books.

Buckle up, darlings, and my apologies in advance: this is a rough ride, and I don’t recommend reading it if you aren’t in the right headspace for it right now.

I hope that those who do read it might drop some LGBTQIA+ positive book/tv recommendations in the comments as a pick-me-up for others. I will add some myself if I can think of some good ones.

So as it turns out, I ran into something entirely by accident: the inspiration behind the character of Quentin Coldwater.

I knew that Eliot and his "will-they-or-won't-they" dynamic with Quentin in the Magicians books were both borrowed from Evelyn Waugh's Brideshead Revisited (Grossman has said so himself)--

but I didn't realize there was an actual preexisting character Grossman borrowed from for Q:

Quentin Compson, from The Sound and the Fury.

This explains so much for me. So much.

I ran across information about the character the other day while doing something completely unrelated (looking up some other book if I recall correctly), and when I saw the similarity of the two names and then learned about the first Quentin’s fate, I thought, could this be LG’s inspiration?

Further research revealed that yes, Lev has said as much in articles. And even if he hadn’t, the fact that he has written extensively *about* TSatF online makes it a relatively easy conclusion to draw.

While the two Quentins aren't actually much alike (at least on the surface; I haven't read TSatF yet, just in-depth summaries/analyses of it)--other than the fact that they are both mentally ill over-achiever college students, are preoccupied with the idea of another world (the world as they each wish it was), and constantly associated with symbolic clocks and watches--Quentin Compson's fate explains everything for me in terms of how to understand Quentin Coldwater's series-four fate.

Quentin Compson ultimately kills himself in the famous classic novel; he does so by drowning after jumping off the Anderson Memorial Bridge in Boston, Massachusetts. Today there is a plaque there to commemorate the character:

In the Faulkner novel, Quentin associates the smell of honeysuckle with his obsessions over his sister’s purity--an ideal he comes to feel let down by after she loses her virginity and then seems to lose herself further in the company of men he feels are unsuitable.

I can’t help but make a parallel with the “drowned garden” of season 4, episode 12.

Quentin makes the following speech in the drowned garden, and as far as I’m concerned, it’s the closest thing we get to a suicide note:

You know the worst part of getting exactly what you want? When it's not good enough. Then what do you do? If this can't make me happy, then what would? Fillory was supposed to mean something. I was supposed to mean something here. But it's all... it's just... it's random. It's so random that the only way to save my friends is to yell at a fucking plant! Honestly, fuck Fillory for being so disappointing. You know what, maybe I was better off just believing that it was fiction. The idea of Fillory is what saved my life! [laughs.] This promise... that... people like me... [weeping] People like me... Can somehow... Find an escape. There has gotta be some power in that. Shouldn't loving the idea of Fillory be enough?

But the idea of Fillory is not enough, in the end, because the idea of happiness is also not enough. And by the end of his time on the show, that’s all Quentin has: the trappings of happiness (or at least the ones available to him, the ones he thinks might get him there), without the actual emotion.

Maybe he realizes, in the drowned garden, that he is at the end of his rope. Maybe that is where he decides to give up.

That, in my opinion, is why he begins to seem so shut down: it isn’t uncommon for people to distance themselves emotionally as a precursor to suicide (hence Jason being accused of “refusing to act” toward the end of S4).

I think it’s also why he doesn’t stop to wait and see how Eliot is after Margo strikes the Monster with the axes: he has given up on the idea that the things he thinks will make him happy actually will, or that happiness is actually attainable for him in the first place.

Quentin Coldwater drowns not in the fading of honeysuckle; for him it’s peaches and plums. In any case, he is definitely in over his head, and the water that spills out of the mirrors after his death feels like an homage to that literal drowning of his predecessor.

The TM writers found ways, as the show progressed, to tie the books back in to the show; the way they did it, however, was often roundabout to say the least. Their takes on how different plot points should occur, or be interpreted from book to screen, were usually close to abstract. They did do it, in many ways, but theirs was far from a faithful adaptation.

It fits, therefore, that they would tie The Sound and the Fury into S4 the way that it appears they did.

It also tells me something about how blame for their decision can be distributed, because either the showrunners:

a.) really did their research re: Compson and put together that this was the character that inspired Lev

or, as is much more likely, they:

b.) discussed it all with Lev himself--or LG was the one to broach the subject to see what sort of take they could spin.

Whatever the lead-in to the decision, I think three things combined to give them the idea for Q’s fate:

1. Quentin Compson;

2. Alice’s description, in the third book, of watching an old god kill herself to make way for a new world (which was when Umber and Ember emerged);

3. The following lines from The Magician’s Land: “The truly sad thing was that Ember actually wanted to do it. Quentin saw that too: He had come here intending to drown Himself, the way the god before Him had, but He couldn’t quite manage it. He was brave enough to want to, but not brave enough to do it. He was trying to find the courage, longing for the courage to come to Him, but it wouldn’t, and while He waited for it, ashamed and alone and terrified, the whole cosmos was coming crashing down around Him.

Quentin wondered if he would have been brave enough. He would never know. But if Ember couldn’t sacrifice himself, Quentin would have to do it for Him.”

So, it appears, the group of writers (LG included, however actively) apparently decided to take Quentin’s thought from book three and put him in exactly that position: make the choice, or fail to make the choice.

But the need for him to make that choice was never horribly convincing. They were very mistaken if they thought it was. And no matter what, it was ultimately a horrible, damaging idea. It hurt the audience, and it killed the show. The only sacrifice that was made was made in the name of ego and “clever writing” that the writers thought was edgy and risky in some desirable way.

[Quote from vulture.com]

It's not so deep.

What they did, ultimately, was borrow from more than one outdated work, and use those as excuses to do the wrong things re: mental illness and LGBTQIA+ representation:

Evelyn Waugh’s characters fail, once again, to live their lives and desires freely and openly (What a waste to rehash the long-denied dynamic from Brideshead Revisited only to deny it again);

Quentin Compson’s legacy of suicide and hopelessness lives on (and this is made all the more offensive when you learn that Compson’s suicide was based largely on ideas of spoiled purity which were solely the burden of women to uphold).

They took what could have been made right and beautiful and instead used their story to perpetuate the same sad old traditions of queerbaiting and Burying the Gays.

Tragedy is not more profound than happiness (just ask Quentin Coldwater). I'd argue that to make something really beautiful, you need to mend what's broken.

The world is a broken place. It's easy to break things here.

The worst thing they did to Q, by far, was to use the beautiful concept of minor mending against him like it was the fuse on a stick of dynamite: the thing he’d spent his whole life seeking--his specific field, his special skill in the actual real world of magic--was what he used to kill himself. He killed himself by *fixing something.* We need no further evidence that Q had given up hope.

What a terrible message, and what a slap in the face to viewers who put their trust in this atrocious writing.

And they did nothing to redeem themselves after the fact, either. If anything, they made it even worse, somehow:

Eliot, by the end of the show, has even less than he started with.

Eliot, apparently, is us: left without Q, stripped of the comfort of a world we thought we knew. Utterly let down by the writers who had the power to make things different.

I hate to end this on such a terrible note. So let me just say that if you were let down by the show, and you miss Q, you’re far from alone! I see you, and I hear you, and I share your pain.

TM got it all wrong. But I have faith that others will get it right.

And no matter what, in the last book, Quentin lives, and has nothing but a whole world of possibility open up before him.

#The Magicians #Meta #Quentin Coldwater #The Sound and the Fury #the magicians season five #the magicians season four #the magicians books #Eliot Waugh #Brideshead Revisited #Evelyn Waugh #William Faulkner #Queliot #mental illness #lgbt representation #queerbaiting

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go-diane-winchester · 5 years

Text

How can Wincest fans be against the idea of Dean being bisexual even though they pair him with Sam? They are both men after all.

@sage-speight-trickster-jr Thank you very much for going through all the trouble of unblocking me just to ask this question. Although, I have answered the question before, it seems that the answer was not circulated amongst the destiel shippers and the destihellers. If you could kindly facilitate for me, I would appreciate that, because it would mean not having to answer the question again in the future. I would also like to be very thorough in this answer so please bear with me.

Just to clarify, I am not a Wincest fan, however as sage pointed out, I approve of it and that is because they haven't [to my knowledge] shown any form of aggression and violent intent towards my boys or even Misha for that matter. I have been told by hellers that ''evil bibros'' threaten Misha, but when asked for receipts, the claimants disappear. It happens every time like clockwork.

Jensen Ackles, that ''uptight homophobe'' who hates anything destiel-related, was very eloquent about Wincest, when he was asked about it years ago:

Jensen might have not realized this but he understands slash fiction more than he thinks. Slash fiction, like bara etc, fall under the category of fan fiction. Slash is a more intimate form of fan fiction because it has to do with the slash fan rather than the pairing. There are personal factors that destiel fans don’t consider. These factors were second nature to Wincest fans, because Wincest is a classic slash ship, and it followed the rules of classic slash. What's more, no external person interfered with this ship and it therefore remained true to itself. And Jensen, somehow, just understood these factors. Wincest fans and Jensen are both in agreement as to what Wincest is supposed to be. It is fiction. It is a hot fantasy. As Jensen said, Wincest fans don't think Dean and Sam are gay. This is where the factors come into play and why destiel shippers get it wrong.

Slash is born from love

In order to ship a pairing, you have to like both people in the pairing. Wincest fans understand that not everyone is going to think Sam and Dean are a sexual turn-on. It might shock some people to realize, that there is someone in the world, who thinks Jensen, for example, is an ugly pig-of-a-face. He might be sexually offputting to this person, for some reason. So a person like this won't ship Jensen with anyone. Why would you ship someone who doesn't turn you on? Sometimes one of the pairing might look like a relative, or a former sexual harasser, or an enemy the shipper hates from where she works. It is therefore, understandable, that the shipper will not have a single sexual thought about that guy. It happens.

If someone has that opinion about Jared for example, they wont like Wincest, J2, Mishalecki, Sastiel, Sabriel, Sevin or any other pairing Jared and Sam are a part of. Sometimes, the shipper might like one person too much and not care about anyone else. Nobody is good enough for her boy, but since slash fiction makes her happy, she slashes him with himself. I have seen Jensen, Jason Teague, Alec and Dean Winchester all slashed in very imaginative pairings. That is like a four-cheese pizza for someone who is crazy about fromage, and a puke-fest for someone who hates cheese.

There might be other reasons why a slash fan wont be attracted be a guy. She might not like what she considers to be Jensen's grumpy unfriendliness. Maybe she just doesn't like Jared's long, floppy hair. All the above apply to Misha as well. They may not like his looks, his verbosity, the way he dresses. The reasons are varied. Not everyone is going to be attracted to the same guys. If one part of the pairing is blergh! to the shipper, the shipper is not going to like the pairing. Wincest fans recognize that everyone watches the show for different reasons. Some fans watch the show for the paranormal element, not to ogle the boys and their epic chemistry.

So wincest shippers don't force their ship on others. I have been approached by fans who said they entered Supernatural via the destiel door, because the hellers seem to recruit shippers, but when they watched the show, they found Sam and Dean had more appealing and stronger chemistry and that Destiel didn't seem to cause a blip in the radar. They aren't right. They aren't wrong. They are merely giving their opinion. Wincest fans understand slash fiction. They understand that slash is based on love for both characters. That is the first and foremost requirement. If the shipper don't love either of the boys, the ship is not happening. Some fans like Dean and Sam and Cas, and so we have Wincestial. This is what Wincest shippers understand and destiel shippers don't.

Slash is a personal expression of love.

You can’t force it on anyone. Destiel won’t be for everyone because some people might not like Dean for some reason. Or they might not like Cas. In either of the scenarios, Destiel will be an offputting thing. They wont like destiel, because it doesn't turn them on. Wincest fans understand that some people may not find wincest appealing, not because of the fraternal thing but because of their own opinion on the characters. Some fans might think that Dean is too smothering and possessive of Sam. Some fans might think that Sam is too indifferent and ungrateful of Dean. Neither are wrong in their opinions. That is how they interpret the story. If a fan has these thoughts and just cant stand one of the brothers, they won't like Wincest. This is the most common sense thing about slash fiction that Destiel fans don't seem to understand.

Slash is unique and changes from person to person.

Even amongst the wincest fans, how they love wincest is different. Some of them enthusiastically slash Smith and Wesson, so they can bypass the incestual [a word I learned from Jensen] thing and still have their boys. Some fans go through all the trouble of writing a story where [for example] John kills Azazel and wants his boys off the road and in a home, only to realize that Sam was one of Azazel's psychic kids and not his own child. And Dean has to take Sam and escape so Gordon and other hunters can't find Sam. Of course, the entire story is written just to facilitate the idea that Sam and Dean are not brothers and therefore can fall in love.

Some fans don't care about dealing with the brother thing, and just barrel on through the story with terrific indifference. The point is that, because they have such scattered points of views on what their ideal Wincest scenario is, they don't force the idea on others, especially the studio. They understand that what is appealing to one wincest fan is not going to be appealing to another. They understand that SPN cant please everyone. So they ask for nothing. And in an individual's fantasies, Dean and Sam can swing whichever way the slash fan wants.

Fantasy is not about realism. It is escapist.

Hence, the use of the word fantasy. In fact, Jensen's analysis of Wincest ties in, with my definition of slash fiction, which is:

It is an escapist, fantastical platform for female sexual expression, by women for women, about male subjects in a romantic setting.

I understand there are other definitions, but this one corresponds with straight and bi women. I have seen destiel fans scoff at this definition but not give me a reason why. The ABO trope and mpreg are proof of this. Sam and Dean are not part of a wolf pack. That is unrealistic. But it is a fun little fantasy, for those who like that sort of thing. Sometimes they aren't even men. They get gender swapped for fun, by people who like gender swapping.

Wincest fans don't disrespect canon. If its canon, they [like any other levelheaded fan] will respect it. I count some destiel fans [not destihellers] amongst the levelheaded fans. Wincest fans don't clash with canon or write reams of meta about how the canon should be interpreted. They understand that subtext differs according to an individual's wants, desires and prejudices. You can't convince others that there is subtext in a particular scene. They have to find it themselves. Of course, you can present your subtext, but tagging it in the main tags is equal to forcing the subtext on other people. And that is wrong. I get too many complaints about that.

Remember, if you present your subtext, meta and headcanon like it is fact, you are misleading people. If someone disagrees with you because you are presenting the aforementioned as fact, it is not because they hate your ship. It is because you are saying something that is based purely on your opinion, and some spectacularly gullible and horny young person is going to harass Jensen with this. Take for example, the Dr Sexy question. It was born as a headcanon. Because nobody questioned it, one impressionable creature thought that it has to be the gospel truth. I mean, no one was cross-examining the points put forward. The only people complaining were those ''homophobic'' bibros who found it in the main tags.

This kid probably thought ''aha, I got him now'' when she asked the question to Jensen. Why do you need to ''get'' him? Why does he have to approve of your opinion? If the headcanon had been opened to interpretation, that ignorant kid would have never made a fool of herself and her ship. Jensen would not have to point out that a male fan of another man doesn't necessarily want to sleep with him. This is common sense, but it escaped the kid. I wager that some heller reading the question directed to me probably said ''aha, sage has got her now''. I wonder if they will stick around to read the whole answer. Remember, if you are presenting your subtext to like-minded people and only getting applaud, it doesn't give credulity to the subtext.

According to canon, Dean says to Hendrickson ''You kinky SOB, we don't swing that way'' referring to both him and Sam. Now, it would be fun to argue that this statement is presumptuousness on Dean's part, but we keep that fun argument to ourselves. In fact, I did a post on that same topic, purely for fun, because I came across the topic. Even then, I pointed out that it is a fun little discourse, and not a topic to harass Jared with. After all, he didn't write the post. We don't tweet the CW execs and demand to know why Sam doesn't have a boyfriend yet, preferably someone who is part of our fanon ship.

We also don't violate Jared's personal space at cons, with entitled questions regarding Sam's sexuality because both Jared and Jensen have explicitly asked that the cons should be family-friendly and therefore shipping and sexuality questions should not be asked. They also don't want to give the impression that SPN is about ships. They are not queer baiting at all, just doing their jobs with honesty. Wincest fans love the boys and acknowledge that forcing Wincest will make the boy uncomfortable. Not only is it ethically wrong to force something sexual on other people, especially two friends, because it might hurt that friendship. It will definitely make the boys hate them and they don't want that.

That is one big reason, I respect the Wincest fans. They don't sexually violate the boys with their fantasies. And yes they do consider asking prying questions about shipping to Jensen and forcing him to sign NSFW art at autos as a form of sexual violation. A woman would be protected from this, but because Jensen is a man,[a straight, white one no less], who cares about his dignity, right? If he speaks up for himself, he's a homophobe. And before you call me a white racist for saying that, understand that I am a Muslim South African of Indian descent.

Wincest fans don't use representation as an excuse for badgering the boys or the cast and crew. I know of fans [both Wincest and neutral] who are LGBT and who resent that the LGBT are being used as a means to harass Jensen into accepting a fanon ship. We all agree that the LGBT is being used as an excuse. It always surprises me how Jensen and the Wincest fans, get each other. They both agree on what Wincest is. Wincest fans understand that wincest was born in their fantasies. Jensen agrees with that. Wincest fans agree that the boys are straight in canon. Jensen agrees with that. There is an understanding between the leads and their fans. An understanding between the fan and No. 5 on the call sheet, doesn't mean destiel is going to be canon.

Wincest fans won't demand canon wincest for the following reasons:

According to canon, the boys are straight. Wincest fans value the text, over the subtext. They don't look at shirt colors, blocking, parallels etc. If the character says he is straight, forcing the writers to change that, to feed you kink, is wrong. So the wincest fans don't do that. They just enjoy how sexy Dean and Sam [Jared and Jensen] are together and use them as inspiration for an awesome love story. They understand that interpretation changes from person to person. Not everyone is going to see things the same way.

It might shock you to know that some wincest fans are actually against incest and find the idea of it being endorsed on screen unethical. It may not bother Jensen [he like Game of Thrones after all] but it sure as heck bothers some of his wincest fans. Its safe as a fantasy, but they would prefer not to see that ethical tug of war happen on screen.

The show can't fulfill every subsection's fantasy. There are many fantasies flying around in fandom, and pleasing everyone is not feasible Wincest fans are aware of that because it is common sense. That is why some people consider hellers to be selfish. They only care about their fantasy and not the integrity and longevity of the show. Why would a business please one subsection and put off everyone else. It is best to remain neutral. That makes good business sense. SPN has done that and lasted 14 years. So they wont change it now. Just think about that. If it aint broke, don't fix it. Wincest fans understand that some people like shipping, some don't but keep their opinions to themselves whilst other hate it and are vocal about their disgust. Everyone likes Sam and Dean for different reasons. Its not always sexual. One fan said she [I think it was a she] wanted Sam and Dean to be her big brothers so that they could go to her school and beat up all the bullies who beat her up. Side note: the institution of schooling should be banned. It is a social torture device.

Wincest fans don't treat the boys like sex toys. They don't ask for intimate poses during photo ops. They treat their boys with respect. And I think the relationship has become reciprocal between the boys and their Wincest fans. It is a 14 year marriage that has never had much upheaval because it is not a relationship based on coercion. Jensen doesn't shoot the wincest fans down for their fantasies, and recently even said I love you to Sam in canon. Dean has canonically said I love you only twice: once to Mary, but that was also coupled with I hate you. Wincest fans are not screeching at CW about it. They enjoyed the moment and moved on.

This is a nice segue into headcanons. Headcanons are fun if you treat them as such, but you need to understand that every headcanon is opinion-based and can be argued away. Even Wincest ones. Wincest fans don't use their headcanons that they cooked up in their minds, as a pro-Wincest argument for the boys to fight against. That would be like saying ''how can you not agree with the thoughts in my head''. One headcanon that many Destiel fans have, is that destiel is canon, because of the scrapped I love you in the Crypt episode. They don't seem to understand that the fact that Jensen forcefully scrapped the line, actually proves the opposite.

Jensen doesn't want canon destiel. He removed the line without any consultation with writers. But he didn't remove the I love line in the new episode, which was directed at Sam. Why is that? Why didn't Jensen scrap that line? Maybe it has to do with the fact that, when Destiel fans threaten to kill him, wincest fans try to fight them off and protect Jensen. It has nothing to do with canon or fanon. It has to do with your overall entitled behavior. Jensen would prefer not to hear about shipping. He has no real emotional stake is shipping. His opinion on ships is basely purely on how the shippers behave. And Wincest shippers don't behave aggressively.

The difference between how Jensen handles the wincest fans and how Misha handles the destiel fans is quite stark. Jensen, even in the above monologue about wincest, does not encourage Wincest fans. However, whilst letting them know his opinion on shipping, he doesn't discourage them either opting to say ''But that is why its called fiction''. Jensen is extremely neutral, diplomatic and I have to say, extremely intelligent. Its his way of telling the fans ''have your fun, but don't ask me about it''. The wincest fans listened and have kept their fantasies and headcanons to themselves for 14 years. They didn't interpret his words on a direct instruction to them. He said it. They did it. That's it.

Misha does the complete opposite. He was instructed not to tell anyone about the scrapped line because the crew knows what the destiel fans are like. Misha still made sure he said it, even telling people ''I am not supposed to tell you this''. Because he didn't respect an instruction given to him, Jensen got ambushed and abused for it online. Misha did that to keep his destiel audience, but he alienated everyone else. Not a smart person, because he is putting off potential fans of his who might not like shipping.

He doesn't realize that not every fan likes slash fiction and that not everyone is watching Supernatural for slash reasons. They just like the show as is. It also shows how little he cares for his co-worker's well being because he didn't think twice before throwing Jensen under the bus. Misha is one reason, people don't like Destiel. They don't like the guy that plays Cas. There may be other factors. But that one stands out the most. I know that there was repetitiveness in this post, but I hope it answers the question as thoroughly as possible.

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