Honestly I'm so tired of Marvel constantly queerbaiting me. Like, the whole episode was so (!) gay. And still, they just root for Steggy like we haven't seen it a thousand times before and expressed that not a single person is interested in this relationship anymore. But heaven forbid we get a Canon gay couple in Marvel mainstream. But ofc they throw all these breadcrumbs at us just enough to get the gays excited but ofc not enough to actually confirm anything or get the conservatives pissed of. Marvel is a bunch of cowards

Adam Lambert would like everyone to tone down the hostility about a hundred notches, please.

The current Queen frontman addressed the “queerbaiting” accusations leveled against Harry Styles and other musicians, saying he doesn’t think they hold much water, in an interview with British outlet iNews this week. 

“I get the concern,” Lambert allowed. “But OK, so if you’re a gay man and you like Harry Styles, do you like him because he has a rainbow flag on stage or because you like his songs? Is the rainbow flag not just icing on the cake?”

Automatically labeling looks and performances that aren’t cisheteronormative as queerbait is “almost underestimating the intelligence of gay people,” Lambert went on.

“We’re not that gullible, are we?” Lambert asked rhetorically. “I think people just like to find things to bitch about.”

“Queerbaiting” is a term that usually describes films and shows that tease LGBTQ+ storylines, but back off at the last second — like, say, the Marvel Cinematic Universe has done several times, see: Loki. It’s also been used to refer to acts like the infamous Russian pop duo t.A.T.u., where industry executives fabricated a lesbian couple out of two straight women to pander to straight men. But in recent years, some have also used the term to accuse celebrities who are not publicly LGBTQ+ of manipulating their fans and using queer aesthetics to boost sales.

That kind of argument is more cynical and can often turn into friendly fire for anyone who’s still closeted. After being relentlessly hounded on social media last year for being seen holding hands with a girl on set, Heartstopper’s Kit Connor announced he was bisexual and swiftly deleted his account. “congrats for forcing an 18 year old to out himself,” Connor wrote. “i think some of you missed the point of the show.” 

Styles himself remains unbothered, calling the discourse around him “outdated” in interviews last year. “I’ve been really open with it with my friends, but that’s my personal experience; it’s mine,” the “As It Was” singer explained. Everyone is, after all, allowed to tell everybody or nobody about who or how they love — and to make schlock like My Policeman.

-Full article. Link here.

Loki and Queerness in the MCU

by Sam H.

Read on our site!

There’s an ongoing joke among movie fans that there have been countless “Disney’s first gay character,” which include the unnamed gay character Joe Russo played in Avengers: Endgame. Not only does this joke speak to Disney failing miserably at providing meaningful queer representation, but it also indicates how desperate queer audiences are for representation, so much so that corporations believe that handing us scraps is the equivalent of a meal. 

I will admit that I’m guilty of buying into bare minimum queer representation, but so is the majority of online queer spaces. For example, I recently found out that Maeve and Aimee from Sex Education aren’t actually a sapphic couple as people on Twitter had somehow convinced me through their fancams. I recently had a similar realization with Loki and Mobius with the release of the new season of Loki. 

Look, I know I said that I’m not the biggest fan of Loki, so it was surprising that I gave the show a second chance. The main reason why I watched the first season in the first place was more out of obligation to keep up with the MCU, but for the second season, I only watched because I heard tons of people calling Loki and Mobius “queerbait” and pointing out the codependent nature of their relationship. However, three episodes into the new season, I noticed that it seems like, somehow, compared to the first season of Loki, the queer rep is abysmally lacking. 

Part of the reason could be that the first season of Loki was directed by Kate Herron, who identifies as queer and didn’t return for the second season. But even when she was at the helm, the only moment that canonized Loki’s bisexuality was a single line in which he said that he enjoyed the company of both princesses and princes. Lines like these is where the problem with a lot of mainstream queer representation lies: the blink-and-you’ll-miss-it phenomenon, coupled with the confirmed-in-external-interviews incidents. 

This has been a common debate for queer representation in media for a very long time and across many franchises, though they all noticeably, but unsurprisingly, seemed to be linked with Disney. In Star Wars, Lando’s pansexuality was only confirmed off screen and the scene of two women kissing at the end of Episode 9 was definitely a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment. Even in other Marvel media, America Chavez’s mention of her two moms and Valkyrie’s attraction to women were barely touched upon, merely throwaway lines that almost no one will remember once they leave the theater.

The one exception to this frustrating pattern is Phastos from Eternals. A central part of his identity is his queerness, mostly exemplified through his family life with his husband and his son. However, on the account of Eternals being a primarily ensemble movie, he isn’t the main focus and thus his storyline, in countries where LGBT censorship is extreme, was completely cut out. 

The argument for blink-and-you’ll-miss-it queer representation is that queerness shouldn’t be the central focus of queer characters because queerness is only one facet of identity. While this is true, queer representation should be spelled out on screen because queer representation has already been very discreet in the past and it’s time that queer representation is visible and essential to the story. Even if queerness is only one facet of a character’s identity, queerness is an inextricable part of the character that should be part of their development and story, embedded in ways that cannot be easily erased. 

The range and inconsistency of committing to queer representation within the MCU bring in the question of whether we can really trust corporations to provide us with the representation queer audiences so desperately crave, even if they have the biggest platform to have the most impact with authentic queer representation. But this also reveals the importance independent films have within the queer media ethnography as independent films have the most capability to provide that authentic representation, even if they aren’t as popular as MCU media. Ultimately, while there’s no one correct way for queer representation to exist, it’s important to consider the intention behind queer representation, especially when it comes to the fleeting moments that corporations claim we should be satisfied enough with. 

The ending of Sarah Z's new video essay about queerbaiting articulated so much of what I feel about fandom's need for things to be canon to be legitimate that I really needed to transcribe a copy of it here:

The more I think about the concept of queerbaiting, the more I think we should just retire it. When we come to the point where the term has come to encapsulate like, 500 things – real people being closeted, real people being bisexual, censored gay relationships in TV, ships people like that aren't canon, the actual use of queerness as a marketing tactic with the intent to decieve a queer audience, etc. – I think the term has ceased to be useful. [...]

I think the deeper root of this issue is this concept of "representation". A lot of young people, my age and even younger, teenagers and whatnot, have really grown attached to the phrase "queer rep": "Is this Marvel character good gay rep?", "I want to support this lesbian singer because I want more lesbian rep in media", "I don't like this character because they're bad bisexual rep."

I do think it is very good and natural to want to see people who are like us. I don't think I need to make a case here for the myriad reasons it's good to see prominent gay people in real life and in fiction. But I do think we've lost the plot a bit when we talk about these things only in terms of how well they "represent us". What we're looking to, in the vast majority of cases, are for our own lives to be reflected back to us by large corporations and the art they produce, or by celebrities. And I think that's never going to happen, because we're looking in the wrong places.

When we assume that for a story to be given value it needs widescale legitimacy, we're assigning too much importance to corporate entities to determine what is meaningful.

So, for instance, we've come to believe that a fictional relationship being recognised as "canon" somehow elevates it above all the rich interpretations and personal resonances readers can draw from it.

Like, think about people hassling Neil Gaiman for decades about whether the guys in Good Omens are gay or not. Why do we need this answer to make the readings we do legitimate? Why would some official stamp of canonisation from an author hold more weight than the myriad connections audiences have made with the work?

Is the middle-upper-class gay couple in, say, Modern Family, a more meaningful queer story than queer readings derived from other stories [in other media] by fans simply because it's canon? Why do we let corporate or authorial validations dictate the value of our personal connections to art? [...]

I'm not saying these stories aren't valuable, or that they don't reflect queer life to some extent, but in the end we're going to be disappointed if we keep looking to massive media outlets and rich celebrities for meaningful reflections of our lived experience. There is such a massive wealth of queer art out there that I think does something more meaningful than be "queer representation". Instead, they are queer stories: indie webcomics, smaller scale novels, games, things made by individuals that reflect their own lived experience without corporate oversight or any particular need to be palatable to a whole audience so that it can be used as marketing material.

In my opinion, there does not exist any hypothetical Marvel movie with a bisexual woman character that could meaningfully "represent" me in the same way independent art not made to be distributed by like, Amazon, would. That's not to say the latter shouldn't exist, or has no value whatsoever, but should celebrities and large-scale corporate art be the sole yardstick we look to in order to tell our stories? I don't think so. And I think this whole notion of desperately looking for validity through celebrities confirming their sexualities and TV networks deeming gay couples "canon" is somewhat misguided.

Beyond the harm that the queerbaiting narrative can do to closeted people, I think it reflects that we're looking to the wrong people to give our experiences value.

Sarah Z: I Was Wrong About Queerbaiting

Hi, I really love reading your blog, also, thanks for sharing your posts. Even if I'm not the one who asked your otps, do you mind if I asked why you love those couples (your otps)? You can pick at least 3 couples, if you want to write the reasons.....

Oops I completely forgot about this ask sorry-

SO I'm gonna pick so much more than 3 ships lmaooo be ready for my rambling <3

Zukka (Zuko/Sokka), from Avatar the last airbender : they're simply idiots in love. I'm not sure I can explain why I love them so much. I think they're beautiful together and that their personalities complete each others.

SuguSato (Gojo Satoru/Geto Suguru) from Jujutsu Kaisen : AH. I won't talk about them or else I'll be writing all night. They're my current hyperfixation (since 2 years). I already made too much posts about them. They smart and idiots in the same time, they're kids who are learning how to love, they're the definition of bromance, the incarnation of gay/bi panic & awareness.

BokuAka (Bokuto Kotaro/Akaashi Keiji) AND KuroKen (Kuroo Tetsurou/Kenma Kozume), from Haikyuu : yes I have to put both because I am not able to choose only one. I know they're in highschool but they're just married. They're two married couples. They're soulmates. They are perfect for each other. They love each other so fucking much it's overwhelming. It's a captain/setter relationship that is so pure and wholesome. They're not even in the same year yet they fit each other perfectly. Also, they're sexy.

Karushuu (Akabane Karma/Asano Gakushuu), from Assassination Classroom : they're just the whole Enemies to Lovers trope for highschoolers and it's so fucking hilarious to imagine them flirting and bickering at the same time. I can imagine them in so many situations, and that's why I keep writing fanfiction about them. They have the exact same personality but just, slightly to the left, and that somehow makes them total opposite. Yet the relationship works.

EraserMic (Aizawa Shouta/Yamada Hizashi) from My Hero Academia : married couple too but they are adults and they also might have adopted a kid (Eri) or 20 (the entire 1-A + Hitoshi). It's the Sunshine/Moonlight trope, one hyperactive extravert in love with the tired emo introvert, and they work very well together. I also write fanfic about them. I had a 4 year long hyperfixation on them.

AziraCrow (Aziraphale/Crowley) from Good Omens : I don't need to say anything, just watch the show. It's on Amazon Prime. Alright, okay, I will say one thing : Genderqueer In Love.

Stucky (Steve Rogers/Bucky Barnes), from the MCU : It has been a while since I've read or saved anything about them but I will never forget how much I love them. I will never NOT be mad about the queerbait. They are in love till the end of the line, they cannot be separated, they are a whole pack yet Marvel put them apart. Just, let them be together, I'm begging you.

Alright that's all for today ! Really I can talk for hours about each one of these ships, I'd write entire paragraphs if you allowed me to. But there's like 7 couples here so it'd be way too long if I say everything I have to say about them lmaooooooo

well taika also said some really stupid things about how gay his film was before and after the fact. so </3

I'm not really sure what this is in response to but honestly I'm so sick and tired of Taika Waititi bearing the blame for something that is so clearly not his fault. In no way is he perfect or the "savior" of Hollywood, cuz trust me I'm sick of seeing that extreme too. But jfc. Like just look at his work OUTSIDE of Marvel/Disney and then try and tell me he was intentionally queerbaiting.

Why is it that every time a couple white guys in a show/movie look at each other for longer than 2 seconds, or show any affection for each other in general, you can go online and immediately find everybody reblogging a million gifs of them and screeching about how, "the actors want their characters to fuck SO badly!!!" and making posts like, "if it were up to the actors/writers/director/on-set caterers this ship would already be canon!"

If they actually gave a fuck, we'd see them put their money where their mouth is by the projects they're part of after they get rich and have that freedom they insist they were previously denied.

But then when we DO have creators/actors use that creative freedom to make or be part of something with LGBT+ characters that aren't sloppily thrown in for woke points, or given a single line alluding to their queerness, but have actual well-rounded characters with meaningful relationships, they are either ignored or put on a pedestal with insane standards.

We KNOW how despicable Disney is. We KNOW how horribly they censor everything. We KNOW that the people they hire have to fight tooth and nail for every scrap of diversity.

So why the hell is Taika Waititi, a Māori man who has spent his interviews for Disney projects hyping up the queer pirate show he's part of, getting the blame for not being able to make Love and Thunder "as gay" as he genuinely wanted and intended to do?

Hmm. Wonder why?

"For Sylki is obvious: toxic, toxic and they're basically the same person"

Is it crazy how people can be so off base? I don't know in what aspect Sylki, who actually bring out the best in each other is supposed to be toxic… This word is used so much today without people seeming to understand the definition, that's when same crazy… Oh and the delusion of Sylki being the same person, is, I already explained, completely false. The series and the creators have been very clear on this subject, yet people persist in saying the opposite which annoys me deeply. It's like people who insist on saying that the Sylki romance is not the center / driving force of the plot… When it is in fact the case, the series shows it and the creators confirm it . Also, Sylvie was compared to Loki's new glorious goal in season 1 in a fucking dialogue and the antis always make fun of the pro Sylki to say that indeed Sylvie was in some way Loki's new glorious goal. I am literally angry with these people after seeing their message mistagged with the sylki tag…

Yeah I do think antis like to throw out these buzzwords like toxic, inc*st and the newest one I've seen is them saying sylki is ab*sive. That one in particular always leaves me puzzled because they never elaborate to explain in what way sylki is supposedly ab*sive and also they ship him with a guy who held him prisoner in season 1 and put him in a time loop where he was kicked in the balls and punched in the face repeatedly, so apparently by their reasoning sylki is ab*sive because reasons but their ship isn't? (To be clear though I don't think either relationship is ab*sve just pointing out that their statement is more than a bit hypocritical.)

The whole 'but they're the same person' argument is getting a bit tiresome, especially as writers etc have addressed it and said they aren't, yes they used it to send a message about self love, but that wasn't the defining aspect of their relationship, I feel like antis have tried to boil their relationship down to that one aspect of them being variants of each other when really their relationship is a lot more complex than that. I would also argue that as much as Loki loves Sylvie for the ways she is similar to him, he loves her more for the ways she isn't the same as him. He loves her for who she is as her own person not because she is the same person as him, as much as the show and fans joke about him falling in love with himself, the show has made it clear that they had very different lives, different ways of doing things, different views and even different personalities.

Another buzzword that gets thrown around is queerbaiting, this idea that the only reason L*kius isn't canon is because disney and marvel are either too scared to show lgbtqia+ representation or because they hate the lgbtqia+ community and so will never show a gay couple. Which is just false. Marvel and Disney have shown and written characters of different sexualities and identities into their newer projects. Loki and Sylvie are bisexual, that was clearly stated. Valkyrie is also bisexual, it was confirmed in love and thunder that the valkyrie who died protecting her in the hela flashback was her girlfriend. America Chavez in Multiverse of madness had two mothers. Phastos a main character in Eternals had a husband and child and honestly was one of the most beautiful relationships I've seen in the mcu so far. In hawkeye one of the female larpers mentions her wife. And lets not forget Korg and his partner Dwayne who he made a baby with whilst holding hands over a lava pit. I do think disney need to continue working on their representation but they have already made a good effort of adding more representation into their projects, including more female heroes which was something else they were lacking in the past, but its not going to happen over night and just throwing two guys together because its a popular ship as fan service isn't the way to go, it would be too forced. So if L*kius isn't canon its not because Disney refuse to have representation in their projects, I mean with eternals they lost money because some countries banned it because of the scenes between Phastos and his husband, disney, apparently, were given the option of removing those scenes but they refused. The only reason L*kius isn't canon is because they were never meant to be romantic, the importance of their relationship was based in their friendship. Mobius is the best friend, Sylvie is the love interest.

It is also annoying when they put their posts in the sylki tag, my advice to all sylki shippers there would be to use that block button liberally. It's actually impressive how many accounts I've had to block since season 2 started airing.

But as frustrating as it can be to see, let them stay mad. Like you said we've got the canon ship, we've had amazing statements from everyone with creative control on the show confirming our ship and its importance to the show. So now when I see a post bashing sylki or making some insane claim that sylkis have misinterpreted the show and that really l*kius is the real love, I think well I know they are wrong because the writers and producers said so, and then I move on and leave them to it because ultimately they are the ones that have misinterpreted the show and I'm confident in my ships validity. 🤷‍♀️

Doom Patrol. A Eulogy

*inhales deeply*

This. show.

It isn't really a show about superpowered people. I think it's actually a show about underpowered people who, sure, can occasionally pull off a cool stunt, but for the most part are so broken that they can barely function. With such a strong focus on character, personal growth and The Human Condition- this isn't just something I haven't seen in superhero media; it's something I haven't really seen in all of television.

Shall I list all the ways that this show has improved my outlook on life? (ok, not all-)

The queer rep. Need I say more? Genuinely though--I can't recall ever watching a show where I trusted so implicitly that the queer relationships would be a) intentional, b) integrated into the plot naturally, and c) handled well throughout the show. Looking back on my Doom Patrol experience- not once did I worry about queerbaiting or the queer rep feeling tokenistic. I never worried that the queer storylines would be unceremoniously written out to "improve mass appeal". The queer themes were there, intentional, and unique. We have the classic repression/acceptance arc with Larry, but we also have the slow-burn courtship arc with Jane and Shelley (Jane's block being her personal trauma rather than shame for being queer). Characters like Cliff openly accepting the queer relationships to the point where Jane feels completely comfortable opening up to him--and only him--about her and Shelley. Rita and Laura might not be a canon romantic couple, but those two forged a deeply loving bond faster than you can utter the phrase "uhaul lesbians" and have had a tumultuous relationship that is entirely different from Jane x Shelley. Absolutely magical. There's nothing formulaic about The Gay Plot here: the queer relationships (plural!!!) are unique and explored, given just as much importance and screen time as any of the heterosexual relationships. (I know there is still time to fuck this up but the point is: I have trust in this show in a way that I don't normally for most shows. That's really special.)

The Sisterhood of Dada. I know they weren't everyone's cup of tea, but personally I cared less about their plot relevance and more about what they represented: the pure, wholesome and shameless creation of art. Literally any art. Film. Interpretive dance. Sculpture. Spoken word poetry. Bent paperclips. Don't "choose a niche" and pigeonhole yourself as just A Filmmaker or just A Writer: try whatever you want because it's fucking fun. You'll learn something. Shit doesn't even have to be good; it doesn't have to make sense. It just has to empower you against the forces which seek to hold you down. Maybe Dada is nonsense, but it's subversive nonsense. Most of all, though, I loved the found-family aspect of the Sisterhood: a safe place in which one could experiment creatively without fear of judgement from the outside world. I'll probably spend the rest of my life trying to cultivate elements of this in my real world, even if I can't necessarily build myself a secret teleporting salon out of fog where I can be weird and free with my 6 eccentric pals. The world needs more room for creative experimentation.

Lastly but so very not-least that it's actually the most important point of all: this show gave me Laura. I'm admittedly not as well-versed in the DC/Marvel universes as most fans, but I can't tell you how floored I was to find such a captivating mature female superhero. I've finally started to understand the appeal of having a fantastical super-powered person to look up to--even as a grown-ass adult. She's not a 25-year-old in a latex bodysuit with a physicality I'll never be able to (retroactively) attain. She's not here to be a looker for the boys. She's real. She's fucked up. She's incredibly intelligent, street smart, competent in her ability, and benefits from a wealth of wisdom forged in life experience. She deals with intense trauma. She struggles. She's made huge mistakes. But she's trying her best and she's genuinely growing. Probably most importantly of all, she reinforces how, contrary to what society will lead us to believe, a woman's life, growth, wisdom, wit, accomplishments--and, hell, beauty!!--are only just getting started, even as she turns 40. And that she's so heavily queer-coded?? Sublime. We need people like Laura. I need people like Laura.

So...yeah. I am SO grateful that a show like this exists and that I found it. Thanks for the good times.

🖤

...now all that being said- Doom Patrol has nothing to lose now. Go ahead. Give us the Rita x Laura smooch. As a treat. 😇

from Shelved by Genre, episode "The Claw of Conciliator - Part 3," ~3:26:50 - 3:30:52

CAMERON At the end of the day, I think, The Book of the New Sun has a couple ideas in its final calculation that I-- that don't sit well with me, and they are final biases, right, they are things that Wolfe himself seemed to not complicate in the last moment, and one of them, I think we should think about really seriously over the next two books of reading is 'what is the proper human?' Because Jonas is a cool guy, I'm not sure that the book sees him as a proper human. MICHAEL Right. AUSTIN Even though-- CAMERON And certainly not Jolenta. AUSTIN And this is the thing that's interesting, right, is that like you the reader in 2023, me the reader in 2023, part of the appeal of Jolenta, part of the appeal of Agilus, is the friction with the parts of the book that see no places for them. Or that want to dehumanize or villify them. Part of the appeal of Jolenta for me is that I want to carve the space out for her in the work that the work fails to carve out, which is a technique trained to me by our current moment of being a reader. This is a part of being a reader in 2023, is thinking, 'What is the-- if I could change the work, if I could create a fanfic of this work, what would I do here?' And that makes a lot of work much more consumable, and it let's me-- it lets it go down a little easier, when you read in such a way, when you finish the work for the writer. Which-- you know, in some cases I think is a valuable, useful technique, you have to get through the world somehow. In other ways I think in our current moment is often used as a way of not needing to fully engage with ideas because you know your audience will finish it for you. You know, I think the very-- the worst way of doing this is, or the least developed way of talking about this, is classic 2010 era tumblr essays about queerbaiting or something. But I do think the way in which you do see something like Marvel saying, "This is our first-- the first gay couple in the Marvel movies" without ever giving anything like, attention being paid to that relationship, is leverage, or almost weaponizing the desire to fill in the blanks by yourself, and the ability that we've trained ourselves as a culture of readers to fill in those blanks for ourselves, to therefore be able to, to get butts in seats. And I don't think that's what Gene is doing here. Gene is not involved in that. But my point is that I-- as readers in 2023, that is part of where that strategy comes from, you know? MICHAEL Yeah, the Marvel films stumbled on that as a strategy, right. [AUSTIN: Oh, big time.] They recognized that fan communities do that by their-- you know, by the history that they have, that's a part of fan communities and so they leaned into it. Gene Wolfe think that's a part language, right, that's such an inherent part of storytelling that this is a book that is full of gaps that you were intended to engage with, think through, the whole thing is about paradox in some ways, beginnings and endings, a world that's about to be born and is born but is not quite here yet, all that kind of stuff. And so it's even more natural here, I think, to do the work of thinking through, 'well what does it mean to be Jolenta is this world?' or whatever. I think in the last, you know-- when we look at the book schematically, when you're done with The Book of the New Sun, I think it will be very clear what was thought of here and what was not. And I think that Jolenta and Jonas are going to be really fruitful examples to think about when all the cards are on the table.

tell me more abt child star johnny storm!!

okay, I already answered the other anon that asked me about this but thank you for another opportunity to talk about my favorite flaming boy! Let's talk about Johnny Storm's compulsive heterosexuality!

Also I'm not dumb. Marvel will never make Johnny Storm canonically queer. They recently had the opportunity and the author that tried to hint at it more explictly has not written for them since. Comics have a tendency to create new queer characters but are hesitant to confirm anything about old ones and while I see the appeal of new characters, it's undeniable that the old ones have more cultural significance and can be very powerful representation. Unless comic readership changes drastically, Johnny Storm and Peter Parker will never be queer. This is not "proof" this is not an accusation of queerbait. This is an interpretation.

so for those that don't know compulsive heterosexuality is this phenomenon where gay people—because of societal pressure—convince themselves that they do feel heterosexual attraction. It's being sick to your stomach around people of the opposite gender and thinking "oh this is what people mean when they say they've got butterflies in their stomach." It's picking a person of the opposite gender that is unthreatening and convenient to date rather than how they look or if they have a nice personality. It's picking a boy at random because all the other girls are talking about their crush. It's having celebrity crushes on nonthreatening gnc people of the opposite gender that are so out of reach that you can't even conceptualize dating them. For example, my first comphet crush was on David tenant, a skinny flamboyant middle-aged man acting in my favorite tv show next to an actress that I found much more attractive but didn't have the words to describe that yet. Like my "crush" on Tenant went away the minute he wasn't next to Billie Piper or was several years younger or he wasn't in the Doctor costume.

So... Johnny Storm. So first off, Johnny is queer-coded to hell and back in the 60s comics. Which like he's literally flaming, the jokes write themselves. But he's consistently damseled, demasculinized, and mocked for caring about his appearance and vanity. And if you look at the early art of him kissing women, he always looks so uncomfortable and sure that could just be bad art except, no marvel comics did know how to draw kissing, Johnny just doesn't like it. But he's not gay! Look, he's a playboy and always has a girlfriend. But by comic book rules, he doesn't have a girlfriend because there isn't one girl he's constantly interested in especially in the early years. So there's no one to have relationship drama with and so to fill in the personal storyline, they play up his rivalry with Spider-Man. So textually Spider-Man is Johnny's love interest in the 60s. And then in the 70s Spider-Man has the Skip Westcott storyline and suddenly the human torch and Spider-Man team-ups are few and far between.

But Johnny does have named love interests. But the people he dates that stick around long enough to make a story out of are rarely below him in social status. Like he dates Medusa, the queen of the inhumans who is also married. Like she's the impossible perfect woman and they have nothing in common. He dates and marries Alicia Masters, Ben Grimms' long-term girlfriend whom he has known since he was a kid she's a very familiar person to him. Except no he doesn't because she's actually a skrull, a shape-shifting alien, and he's not that pissed that she's been lying to him. There's a beard couple metaphor in there somewhere. He also dates Namorita, an Atlantian princess that he has an on and off again thing with. The relationship is very public they're clearly using each other to get into the tabloids and annoy their exes. And then Johnny makes her a member of the fantastic four when he has to go dimension hopping I think he does this with another girl that doesn't have superpowers?? and he also does this with spider-man. So the people Johnny votes into the fantastic four are his girlfriends and Peter Parker. Like all his relationships are so public, they're a performance, an attention-seeking thing, and incredibly short-lived because he isn't interested in them and they're not interested in him.

And he has this thing with Akihiro, wolverine's son/clone??? Listen despite the fact that I'm gay, I really don't know that much about the x-men. The author of Dark Wolverine said that she was under the impression that they were dating in past stories. After Akihiro came back from the dead, she intentionally wrote sexual tension between them because what do you do when your boyfriend is back from the dead. So Johnny is written as a bi man, but the marvel statement is: no, he's straight. Although Akihiro is bi, is attracted to Johnny, has pheromones that can make people attracted to him, and he has used them in the past to intestate physical contact as well as real relationships. He either is not using his powers on Johnny or that is how Johnny acts around people he's attracted to, which is deeply concerned while emotionally unavailable.

And don't even get me started on his relationship with Peter Parker!! which is private and intimate and long-lasting which is in stark contrast to all of his romantic relationships. Like they have a special spot just for the two of them. And the only other people Peter has that with are MJ and Gwen Stacy, Johnny is that important to him. They have a roommate era where Johnny is in full housewife mode. He tells Peter to look after his family when he's gone because he's the only one he trusts to love and care for them like he does because Peter is his found family. They are constantly drawn in suggestive poses and scenarios. They're always saving each other both in a dynamic duo way but also in a damsel in distress way. Johnny asks Peter to watch his sex tape with him! When Peter uses a memory wipe spell to protect his secret identity (it's not like no way home) he reveals himself again to two people, Felicia Hardy and Johnny Storm who both have the same reaction: I knew I felt something about you but I couldn't place it until I saw your face and now it's all rushing back.

Johnny also has a thing for Dazzler briefly. Recently it's become a joke in marvel fandom that being a Dazzler Fan is code for homosexual because most of her named fans are queer and she's basically the marvel comics version of Lady Gaga. Like if you're a dude that has a crush on Lady Gaga, I'm not judging but you should be asking yourself some questions.

I agree with your tags and I am a big fan of the queer content being put out in the last decade (especially the books!), but it's hard to deny that, due to how most industries work right now, it's incredibly hard to get something like The X-Files (to give the most successful example of genre show + more than 3 seasons + partnership that ended up turning into romance because fans were so invested in it), except Mulder and Scully are both men or women or nb people. Ultimately, I think that's the experience "queerbaiting is better than gay rep" is trying to express.

See but if I understand what you mean correctly, what people want when they say that is a massive slow burn style of romance (which I think sounds nice), but as you also point out, that's... Not something most serialized media does anymore? Like, with television specifically, I think it's very difficult to channel that kind of stuff right now. The nature of streaming means most people consume entire seasons of tv shows in one sitting, which significantly reduces the effect of a Luke/Lorelai kind of slowburn romance (also, this is just an impression so don't take it as data or anything, but I get the feeling tv shows, in general, tend to run a lot shorter nowadays, so there aren't usually a lot of seasons available to stall a couple getting together). So it's more of a general issue than one that applies specifically to gay content.

What I do get on the "queerbaiting being better than gay rep" front is that, because queerbaiting isn't trying to Be Proper Representation, it can be more interesting than gay rep that feels obviously written to check all the boxes of a list of What Constitutes Good Rep taken straight from a Buzzfeed article. But reducing gay stories to that is super unfair. And I get this weird, holier than thou vibe coming from people who say this kind of stuff*, as if fans who do want to see canon gay rep in stories are somehow Less Evolved or less interested in Complex Narratives, which ultimately is, imo, harmful to the subject of representation as a whole.

(*Adding this asterisk because I also feel like some of this comes from a defensive place, because I have also seen people respond to fans of the queerbaity stuff with "Well, just go watch actual gay stuff!" in a really condescending way. Like I remember when the infamous D3sti3l confession happened I saw a couple posts of people going "wow y'all still watch that queerbaity shit? couldn't be me, I'm happy watching stuff with Actual Rep like [insert here the diverse children's cartoon of the season]". Or "wow you all wanna see men kissing in a MARVEL movie? why don't you watch [insert here artsy gay cult movie] instead". And I think that's pretty shitty as well! So I get these fans feel a little attacked and want to defend themselves. I just ultimately don't think that "gay subtext is better than actual text" is a good point in, like, 99% of situations, and I worry about people regurgitating it regularly without thought.)

I honestly don’t know when people are joking or being genuine but I’m begging those who are for real to learn the real definition of the word ‘queerbait’😩

Queerbaiting is when the creators, developers, etc. hint/promise for there to be queer content in their movies/series to attract queer audiences and then don’t show it

Queerbaiting is not showing two male figures healthily/closely interact with each other and then you being mad because they’re not turning into a canon relationship right away, or won’t turn canon at all in the series

Queerbaiting is not making one male character admit they’re bi and then you being mad because they’re not immediately put in a relationship with another man/won’t be at all in the series

Seriously I’m saying this as someone who ships Lokius and dislikes Sylki as much as the next person. Like I wish they were canon. Truly. But do you really think Marvel would ever show a gay couple on-screen for more than three seconds without sending them to superhell...

Is it just me or is “tfatws is queerbaiting” just...the least interesting possible take?

Disney Film Characters That Should Have Been LGBTQ+

After my list of all lgbt characters in disney films I thought I’d make a list of those who should have joined them. This won’t be a fan-ficy post as all these characters had great reason to be not straight.

Oaken: Frozen

When this scene aired the lgbt community lost there minds as in the sauna there appears to be four children between the ages of 5 to 17, and 1 adult male, and since he referred to those in the sauna as his family many people automatically assumed that the man was his partner and the one he was raising his children with. This would have been so easy for Disney to leave in a sort of limbo canon but instead (despite gay marriage supposedly being legal in Arendelle) they eventually confirmed he has a wife. This inferiorities me because all they had to do was nothing, but they couldn’t let people think one of there characters were gay.

Valkyrie: MCU

I know she is confirmed bisexual, my beef is how marvel and the mcu has cut both of her only lgbtq scenes. There was one where we see two people leaving her bedroom (one of which female) and they are implied to be her lovers, and then an extended version of her flashback where we see that the blonde Valkyrie was her girlfriend. They are so proud of her but cut the only two scenes that would have made it canon on screen. Maybe Love and Hammers will fix this, but for now I am very mad and what they did to her.

Poe and Finn: Star Wars

For four years this ship was teased, from the very first time Oscar Isaac said there was a small romance in tfa to every single actor saying they want Finn and Poe to be a couple, to the director saying there would be an lgbt kiss in tros. But what did we get in the final film, a far background kiss of two background characters and am implied straight Poe. It was 2019, after all those years of teasing and onscreen chemistry it would have been so easy to have Finn or Poe confess there love by the end that could have been redubbed in foreign countries to still be a bromance. Instead they chickened out and to make sure there wasn’t even an implied romance, gave Poe a sort-of girlfriend.

Pumbaa and Timon (2019)

I don’t have much to say here, they were queer coded in the original, it would have been easy to have them actually be a couple or at least gay in 2019, especially considering one was even played by a gay actor in the remake.

Chen Honghui: Mulan 2020

Even though it was never canon, Li Shang was a bisexual icon amongst the lgbt community, and it would have been so nice if his 2020 counterpart actually got to be bi. But no, the little screen time he does have is just as ambiguous as Li Shang.

Elsa and Honeymaren: Frozen 2

They don’t have much dialogue, but what they do have is very sweet. And when Elsa says she is staying behind she is looking directly at Honeymaren. Since the first film there had been a huge movement called GiveElsaAGirlfriend that was proof to disney that we are ready, and wanting an lgbt disney character, and although they flat out said they wouldn’t, they gave us Honeymaren who totally isn’t flirting with Elsa and Elsa totally didn’t decide to live with. It would not have been hard to make these two a couple, especially considering so many people want them.

Raya and Namaari: Raya and the Last Dragon

They obviously couldn’t be girlfriends in the actual film as they were trying to kill each other and that would give bad messages, but once they were allies they could have implied there was romance in there future. They flirted the entire film, when they first meet Namaari tucks her hair behind her ears like a crush would talking to who they like, and they call each other “Strangly Beautiful” repeatedly throughout the film, they were gay in all but words. Kelly Marie Tran who plays Raya (who also supported Stormpilot) stated she thinks they should be a couple. This was the most Queerbaiting I have ever seen. Actually I take that back:

Luca and Alberto: Luca

No, this entire movie wasn’t just one big metaphor for being in the closet in a homophobic town, defiantly not. I have gone into depth about these two on many an occasion so I am not going to again, however I will summarize. Alberto showed Luca a whole new world, they both fantasized about running away together, Alberto gets extremely jealous when Luca changes his mind about running away together, they both out themselves to save each other, and Luca only cries when he wishes Alberto goodbye. Despite what the director says, THEY ARE GAY! (also they watch multiple sun sets together)

Katy and xialing: Shang-Chi

The only time Xialing smiles as an adult is when she is talking to Katy, she is awfully smitten with her and despite seemingly disliking America, listens to Katy’s compliments and gives a seemingly genuine one back. They had very instant chemistry and I want to see where it goes. 

Anyway since tumblr keeps recommending me posts about the new Marvel movie I’d just like to throw it out in the universe that I don’t care about anything Marvel. I don’t care who’s “directing” it (because the directors have almost no say in the movies anyway) I don’t care if there’s a new gay ship or even a canon gay couple (which there won’t be) I don’t care if “this one’s different” because they’re all the same and I will not watch it. The only thing I find even marginally interesting is that they’re using Chris Pratt to queerbait people but that still does not make me care