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katyspersonal · 14 days

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who do you think fucked up worse…gehrman or maria?

This is an interesting question, and I kind of didn't think of it before! Time to take a closer look at their crimes I guess. Some of these will be held on the possibilities and 'safe assumptions' though and addressed for the full picture!

1) Both were involved in Fishing Hamlet massacre!

With Maria, we can conclude as much because she discarded her weapons in the well at the place specifically. Her version in the Nightmare realm, a Hunter again, is supposed to be what punishes her, and she is focused on keeping Kos/OoK away from rummaging through. Considering the nature of the Nightmare, as well as the Doll who has spiritual connection with her, it should come from her guilt and regrets rather than.. I dunno, discarding the hunt over natural 'character development' and just picking a cool place to forsaken her past!

Gehrman sleeps better according to the dialogue Doll has after you kill OoK and free it's soul, so if it tortured him so, I think it is safe to say he had to be personally involved too rather than stay back while his students did the job:

They both were involved with Byrgenwerth, following their quest for obtaining the eyes of the dwellers from their skulls, and I suppose cord of OoK?

The thing about this point is that the description is written as though it was Gehrman's curiosity which ruined Maria's "idealisation" of him, or WOULD ruin it had she learned of it! This makes me wonder whether she was really involved in Byrgenwerth all that much, or whether she was aware of the real purpose of Fishing Hamlet massacre beforehand? Her goal, within the Nightmare, is stated to mercy-kill us so we don't allow that curiousity corrupt us to the point of "rummaging through corpse" and similar things, further supported by her visceral attack being an embrace if it is lethal!

I am just saying that here the balance might slightly shift towards making Gehrman 'worse' than her. Maybe she was not aware that it all was not just killing "monsters" but also a pregnant mother with her divine baby, but "well you didn't ask :/". Maybe Gehrman deceived her to use her aid. Maybe he didn't think it would be a big deal for her seeing that Maria was also interested in evolution through talking with Great Ones, and assumed she'd be just as callous about which means to accomplish the goals with?

2) Both were grave-robbing, or at least okay with that!

This one is a little less obvious, but Tomb Prospectors were not the first to go to the Chalice Dungeons! ...It were actually Willem, Dores and Gatekeeper lol:

BUT ALSO it were Old Hunters! We can see the remnants of it by Old Hunter Vitus being one the summons in Chalice Dungeons, hear Gehrman encourage us to go into the Chalice Dungeons to become stronger as via "tradition" of the Old Hunters,

and the fact that one of the things that torture Maria (again, remember that Nightmare Realm is Hell that punishes) is a Chalice:

(A video ( x ) for a better look at the Chalice from a figure)

I'd say that it is not very nice to disturb the undead Pthumerians just struggling in remains of their civilisation! Interesting thing: we can conclude they are even staying there to protect the Great Ones or their remains!

There has been some sort of civil war between ancient great-ones-respecting Pthumerians and who late became Cainhurst nobles! Maria, ironically, fell onto the side of "entitled guys" descendants! But yes, I could see why bullying zombie guys to get more history and archeology relics from them might not seem like much for her at start. Experience in the Fishing Hamlet likely retroactively ruined this period of her life for her: delving into Chalice Dungeons was likewise 'not leaving the corpse alone'. The remaining Pthumerians were right having some honour and dignity. So, that came to haunt her in the form of Pthumeru Chalice. Gehrman is.. well he's here too I guess dfshfdhs

3) Both knew a little too much about Laurence's shady business and did nothing?

Old Hunters used to be friends with Healing Church's Hunters and even had their workshops located close to one another! Gehrman was friends with Laurence and Ludwig, who are both quite strongly involved with Moon Presence (Ludwig's sword and guidance, Laurence's affiliation being known since Byrgenwerth times), as well as the key figure in creation of Hunter's Dream:

This was most likely a bait-and-switch, seeing how the cord itself is still in the real Workshop, and not in the grasp of Moon Presence (unlike, say, Wet Nurse taking Mergo's cord)! I think the purpose of creation of the Hunter's Dream was to "buy time" for the research conceived by the scientists! Remember: Gehrman was known to have "madness of curiosity" that Maria resented, or at least would resent had she known! He might have been fully aware of what Laurence wanted to do and support it! My point here, that with such proximity, he must have known of all Laurence's crimes and agreed with them!

Maria was at least overseer of the Clocktower's Research Hall, which, again, was just beta!Choir.

This last line IS a bit confusing, because it makes it sound as though the nerds looking for the Eyes Inside and the Blood Ministers got split. Laurence and Ludwig make it weird, as Moon Presence is also an Eldrich creature and Ludwig is for sure full of eyes! What also makes it strange is that Choir, and then School of Mensis, are both upper echelons of the Healing Church, but Laurence is supposed to be above both of them.

I think this can be worked with! Let's say what if Choir formed after Laurence's death, which also happened after Maria's death, and Vicars after him were somewhat "powerless" and walked over by Choir and Mensis, only leaders in the name! But that still leaves the bit that the mentioned "division" happened after Choir was formed! Maria and Adeline, however, are locked to the existence of the Research Hall, so, the timeframe when doctors and blood ministers were 100% working together! We find the Eye Pendant that opens the access to the Research Hall in Laurence's hand, and human Skull of Laurence on the platform that hides the secret elevator to that Research Hall. Again, by the Nightmare Logic, they must be connected with Laurence's sins: he started this research, or sponsored it, or was overseeing it, and so on.

This point is not an absolute thing though, because one or both of them might be freed from guilt here. Maybe Gehrman was not as informed and agreeable as we could assume and Laurence did lead him around? Maybe Maria wanted but could not do anything being caught in the web of complicated connections, blackmail and risks for the people she cared about?

4) Both are willingly involved in questionable practices (Maria with research, Gehrman with the cycle of Dream and Hunt)

This point I feel like transcends the morality a little bit, as it touches the matter of 'it is bad if you do it, but it is also bad if you DON'T do it'. I really love Soulsborne universes for having guts to say "you can't win, just pick your poison", but I think it is still worth addressing!

It is up to interpretation in which quantity Maria is involved with the Research Hall! Nothing states whether she founded it, joined in the research later, stepped in and turned the tides (ba dum tss) of the research, or simply was a caretaker/nurse/etc of the broken mess while Research Hall was getting ready for a bit of rebranding. She can be very guilty, or she can be barely guilty but in either case if that was her "redemption arc" that was a pretty bad way to go about it. ...or was it?

Fauxsefka turns people into Celestial Emissaries so they physically can't become beasts instead, and is even stated to be a hero / heroic researcher by Miyazaki:

First, I don't do Death of the Author (in terms of interpreting media I mean, not in terms of a style of writing)! Like, nope. Never. It is just not for me. Creator's word is the final for me; Fauxsefka is the good guy in the story, apparently, and it makes sense considering the fundamentally broken place characters are in! Maria has similarities with Fauxsefka: not only both of them have Cainhurst roots, but also both of them seem to favour 'Stars' line of evolution for humans!

Whereas other patients are afraid of the horrors of the Deep Sea, a concept Miyazaki could not get over well into DS3, Adeline desires them! Other patients seems to have gotten it right, and you can see one of them also clings to Maria mentally to "not drown"; Adeline "didn't understand"! The balcony that Maria wants Adeline to go to so she can forsaken the Deep Sea and seek something "happier" holds unique kind of patients who can shoot cosmic arcane spells:

Herself, Maria is associated with these lumenflowers: their petals are all over her boss arena, and the way to her lays through a much bigger batch of flowers, where Living Failures, other 'Stars' Kin are, whose song lyrics also feature lines 'ave stellar' and 'ave Maria'!

So, how this is different from what Fauxsefka is doing, who is stated to be as much of a good person as possible within this context and with the burden of her knowledge? Fauxsefka was doing more or less rinse-and-repeat practice, with maybe a few patients not surviving the procedure but we don't know what happened: maybe that person was already at the brink of death and she tried to make them live like this.

^ This guy I mean. Maria, on the other hand, is in the time period where the doctors and scientists were only testing the waters (BA DUM TSSS) (ok I will stop) and it was not SO certain what was at the stake, what were the alternatives, what was awaiting the humanity. It is even possible that the beasts problem was not yet bad to the point of "you'll either become a beast, be eaten by a beast or become a Kin, humanity is DONE for!" ! This was an unethical research at the cost of real people! The weight of Maria's sin here really depends on the interpretation, though

As for the cycle of Dream and Hunt, this is complicated and lingers on one's interpretation of what the purpose of the Dream even IS! Its existence provides two things: 1) a hunter who is immortal for the night, thus can sustain the beasts with efficiency like no other, but also effect the continuity of the night ( x ) and 2) supposed sustenance to the Great One Flora of the Moon, who holds the hunt as a concept!

I used to be a bit more set on the idea that if beasts are not sustained and hunted, they will simply overpower those who are yet humans and eat them! It is a self-feeding cycle of people needing to self-defend from beasts, thus having to consume the blood as urgent means of healing and power-up since beasts are too strong, thus risking to become beasts themselves because the blood they consumed during that hunt corrupts them. So, the Hunter's Dream would be a good thing, as it'd help to 'buy time' during nights of the hunt in which not only beasts are more active but Great Ones too! While the Dreaming Hunter holds everything together, the greatest minds of the Healing Church can efficiently study the ways to end beasthood, or ANY problem of humanity, once and for all! It is just better to throw the hunting resources on the Dream, so the scientists don't worry about the beasts and can focus on research. However, I almost forgot that:

This implies that had there not been Mensis Ritual ongoing, people WOULD have the chance to simply 'wait away' the beasthood problem. That, since Rom is not stopping Mensis Ritual but just conceals it, what really makes the inner beast within everyone who consumed the blood inevitably come out is Mergo's cry that draws the Bloodmoon close!

So yeah, the point about Hunter's Dream being helpful for the research of evolution still stands, especially under assumption that the deal with Moon Presence helped to bring more Eldrich Arcane close for "feeding" her. The point about how if the beasts are not hunted they'll simply eat everyone, though, is vague. It is safer to assume that the Hunter's Dream and Research Hall both are both example of hubris of man even if approached differently. Attempts to draw in something dangerous and horrifying, but it is "justified risk" because if you manage to 'tame' arcane/blood, sure, humanity will prosper!

Like... yeah, sure, there IS dangerous and undesireable nature of man that ruins everything and might or might not still linger in humanoids' genes after Loran. But did humanity ASK any of you guys to keep trying to fix it with so many victims and sacrifices? Like, was it WORTH it?

This point is closely tied to 'knowing Laurence's bad antics and doing nothing', yeah. Maria didn't seem to like blood ministration very much, as she disapproved of Adeline becoming a Blood Saint, but she also didn't even approve of blood antics of her own clan! I am not sure what would be her opinion on the Hunter's Dream had she lived to the point when it was created, just that she herself is not willing to ever hunt, so I am leaving this point aside. Is this just blood ministration that she opposes but proximity with a Great One Moon Presence would be something she can see the potential of? Or would she and Gehrman have a pointless cat fight about whose methods are better when they are both hubris of man? In both versions they are 'guilty'! Besides:

In the end none of THIS matters either and everyone was fooled ( x ). The blood offering is a blood offering in any way; whether it is through spilling blood violently during the hunt, or offering the blood's 'red' with how celestial Kin all bleed red. Moon doesn't care what paints it red, in the end.

___________________________________

My conclusion is: both of these characters fucked up almost equally! I think the balance shifts just a little bit and Maria is slightly better than Gehrman since she had some limitations set on how far she was willing to go. Her motivation was not in "curiosity" but strictly in helping humanity, even if in unfair ways, which is apparently not the case for Gehrman?

I'll say this though, NOW I am hooked on the idea of Maria and Gehrman being petty "rivals" ideologically (for as long as they could before Maria's own demons caught up with her). Especially since neither approach is better than the other and they are both cringe loosers! Again, lost comedy gold over Fromsoft making Gehrman's tender and warm feelings for her before and after her death plain. What is not lost, however, is the fact that the two should just kick Laurence and go home :pensive:

#bloodborne #lady maria of the astral clocktower #gehrman the first hunter #again: blaming laurence is a solid strategy #honorable mention: even more of maria's blame might be lifted depending on how strong gehrman's influence was on her #we don't know when he started training her. maybe it was since very young age? so a lot of her actions as a hunter were unwise #again it depends because as of now she is a grown thinking woman and could have processed it BEFORE pregnant mother got killed-#-and her child stolen!#so I am on 'maria's agency' side here!#I think it is more like gehrman FEELS as though he 'ruined' her with the hunt #like you know how sometimes when we feel guilty we become illusioned about how much impact we had on another person's actions and feelings #we need to be TOLD that it was that person's choices in the end because we might feel like we 'controlled' them #and of course his guilt would be amplified and impossible to reason with considering she took her own life!#(as far as we can assume)#ask replies #bloodborne observation #bloodborne headcanons #analysis

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sonandheirofnothinginparticular · 1 year

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#choice #illusion #fate #the matrix #control #life #taoism #Buddhism #stoicism

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cellray · 11 months

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Have some half researched thing I know!

If you stare at the same spot for a long enough time, your retina's cones experience fatigue. Retinal fatigue makes your brain register colors in an illogical and fun way.

Stare at the center, and see how the colors start disappearing and appearing, moving and flowing. Have I animated that? Or is that just your brain playing tricks on you?

Or is all what I said just fake. And because I said it, your brain believed it. And it's just doing what I tell it to do.

#cellray #mind control #hypnokink #hypnosis #hypnotized #brainwashing #hypnodom #hypnotist #mind conditioning #spiral #optical illusion #animation

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the---hermit · 4 months

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10|01|2024

This week has been delirious. I'm stressed, I'm having one existential crisis after the other, and circumstances do not help. A professor wrote an alarming email late at night the other day which made me panic, but at the end he simply wanted to know whether I'd be up to take my exam online. Which means on Monday I won't have to commute, so that's good but it wasn't worth the scare. The one positive thing of these past two days has been my dad, who as in every exam season, has been helping me review my notes, and I am so very grateful for his help.

Calm hobbit winter activities and productivity:

Read first thing in the morning

Finished my second outloud review of nites for the power practices and men theories exam

Daily Irish practice on duolingo

📖: A Day Of Fallen Night by Samantha Shannon

#the conclusion of my existential crisis is that i am considering chopping off all my hair in the hopes of having an adrenaline rush #will that give me an illusion of control? idk but i need a change to distract me from life #studyblr #studyinspo #uniblr #university #journal #journaling #studying #productivity #calm hobbit winter #notebook #knife gang #mine #the---hermit

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jellycass · 1 year

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austin's wife and kids comment being set up as a running gag only to then get thrown back in showfalls face when he breaks away from them for a moment and immediately says "I don't have a stacy" in the most unsure, anxious voice before snapping back to a monotone reassurance "I have a stacy" is something I can be soooo normal about (lying)

#the implications this one scene gives us is insane #we the audience know hes gay and would be less likely to save someone who we know is lying #but this scene implies showfall is controlling EVERYONE on set #so why would they have his pleading case be he has a wife and kids unless they didnt want us to choose him #something something illusion of free choice #which also ties in to the puzzler wanting to pick sneeg instead of niki #and then all of them dying anyway but yknow #generation loss #genloss #genloss spoilers

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minothtime · 5 months

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Hunter would be the nightcore kid Gus would be the vocaloid kid Amity would be the mitski girl in red kid Willow would be the eurobeat slash hozier kid Vee would be Carly Rae Jepsen 2010s music kid Luz would be the one that introduces all of them to the respective music like idk thoughts yknow

#toh #the owl house #hunter toh #willow park #gus porter #vee noceda #hunter noceda #amity blight #i know i am correct. would they enjoy select songs from e/o? yes. would they fistfight over aux control? also yes.#gus showing phony to hunter hunter showing god is a girl to willow willow showing movement to amity amity showing my love all mine to vee #and vee showing gus perfect illusion by gaga like idk man #i KNOW i am correct btw. hunter would figure out neocities in a jiffy and makw the most eyesearing website ever

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hgduo · 9 months

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There is something so beautiful about how earlier that day Cellbit and Max were talking about Jaiden and Foolish working for the feds and saying that they were using their naivety, innocence, love for others- there weaknesses and strengths- all of that to manipulate them into doing tasks for them...

and then later that same night it's revealed that Cellbit had been unknowingly working for The Federation... Everything he had been doing these past weeks was helping them- That was being manipulated and used by them this entire time and didn't even know it...

#qsmp #cellbit #it reminds me of how they used him before when Felps was missing- how they lead him further and further in and once he was in the building #teased him with mysteries that were really just bait- but at least back then he was aware of that he was working alongside them #here he really thought he was alongside another faction but nope... it was still the federation this whole time #it's beautiful really... having his illusion of control and progress pulled out like a rug underneath him man #they used it all against him- his pull towards solving mysteries- his love of his family- he feverish desire to leave this place-#like he talked about the others being naive and failed to see it in himself in the end- God damn!

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trainingdummyrabbit · 11 months

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hm.

ever think about how people who become demons are usually turned during a heavily vulnerable and desperate point of their life in a last ditch attempt to live on, or to have some sort of say over what happens to them, only for them to be bound to an unspoken contract where their body no longer truly belongs to them. ever think abt that.

#kny is an office comedy series !#(<== lying)#piktalk #kny #thinks abt how demons sole worth is how useful they are; how obedient they are; how manipulatable they are.#thinks abt how they r instantly cast aside/killed the instant they stop being useful #and thus clambor over each other ruthlessly to be Worth something; to be given the illusion of more agency #agency that they never really had to begin with; nor will they ever achieve; only ever held above their heads to control them #hm.#(<== started thinking abt susamaru a lil too hard again and then spiralled off)

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itsmybirthdaythough · 7 days

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Helllooooo everyone. Dirk strider Moodboard part ???? Because I found more fuel. I’ve been super into coding lately and after understanding how code works, dirk’s mannerisms and tendencies are a lot easier to empathize with. Not the whole “controlling my friend’s lives so they live the most ideally to my standards” but in the sense of constant micromanagement. I understand that living and growing up almost completely alone will cause hyper independency, but being so involved with code and programming tends to invoke perfectionism within somebody. If the most minute details result in a complete project failure, then extreme attention to detail is a needed feature. Rambles and words, this guy is so neat.

#machines cannot feel empathy but they can be given the receptors to feel the illusion of emotion #alpha bro #bro strider #ult dirk #strider bros #i love characters that control the narrative #dirk strider #programming nerd #code #dirk #homestuck #i’ve been using javascript it is difficult #hal #robots #machines #trans #transgender

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dykedvonte · 1 month

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thinking abt what you said with house viewing Benny as a son and I’m obsessed. Like. The man spent most of his life before the war presumably alone, and then after the bombs fell he was alone again, save for AI he himself devised. Then he decides to pull in some Tribes, and one kid shows promise! So sure, treat him well, train him, groom him to be his protege, then next thing you know UH OH he’s got developing paternal feelings towards this guy. Wanting some semblance of a family when the time has long since passed, yet fostering that feeling all the same seems so accurate for him. Benny meanwhile only views him as a boss, and not a particularly good one at that. makes me wonder how House must’ve felt when he found out about Bennys plans

I view it as House blames only himself for this, cause he kind of does in canon (strap in this is a long one).

When reflecting on the issue of Benny, House chastises himself first and foremost for not acting quickly enough when it comes to priming Benny. He describes Benny as being ambitious, ruthless and capable; compliments coming from a man like House. House has an ego and while he is logical enough to understand there was never any evidence Benny saw him as a father-figure, he lacks the humility to admit he let his own views on his relationship with Benny blind him to the activities happening behind the scenes.

I doubt that House was as aware as he makes out about what Benny was doing, he knew early on but certainly not early enough to stop Benny from hacking and obtaining a securitron along with getting the chip in the first place. I take it he was distracted by all the possibilities he was calculating of Vegas' success and growth with him steering and Benny as the new figure head, not because of any normal affection for Benny but the admiration of his capabilities. It's to be noted that House believed menial incentives (likely caps, booze, basic needs, etc..) were enough to keep Benny tame like the other Chairmen but, as evidenced by the Omertas and Mortimer in the WGS, this is not enough when it comes to more driven Vegas citizens. This implies he still undervalued Benny and created a space in which Benny felt the need to rebel.

House in my eyes is not sentimental in the traditional sense. I can imagine his pride was severely scorned as someone he certainly deemed dumber than him was, albeit only for a little, able to out-gambit him. It would definitely hit home seeing how his brother also betrayed him but I feel like that's why he's so apathetic when he tells the Courier to do as they see fit with Benny. I doubt the way he terrorized his brother brought him any emotional satisfaction other than a "Now who's in charge!" ego boost. Putting that same emotional intensity towards Benny isn't worth it because who does it benefit? Wasted time, wasted planning, and most importantly wasted potential are all he gets from continuing to be hands-on with Benny. I say the closest example is not being able to throw out old toys due to the memories attached but knowing it's necessary as they are broken or just taking up space for new ones, and then asking someone else to do it so you don't need to get caught up in the feelings of throwing something you put so much effort into. It's not Benny House cares about in my mind, not in a way that sounds healthy to any non-emotionally constipated individual, but what he could've represented for him, which is why he so quickly offers the same position to the Courier.

As for Benny's view on all of this, it was a long time coming. Benny didn't and doesn't believe House is a completely shitty boss. He admires what he's been shown and admits House knows how to run the strip, but disagrees with the directions. Ideologically, House is an anarcho-capitalist while Benny is just an anarchist. House wants to run the strip to profit, though money is not what he's concerned with being rich with anymore. Benny wants a free state that he wishes to become a place for the people, except for the Chairmen who would be on top (I like to remind people that Benny's motives were selfish but not for personal gain/power as was it for the people he actually saw as family). Benny was never looking for a father but a future. He was not interested in being adopted, or having the chairmen adopted, as bigger names still overshadowed in House's legacy.

Truly, it's easiest to summarize as House feeling strongly and thinking positively enough of Benny to start incorporating him into the future of Vegas (a huge honor actually) while Benny was so disillusioned by House's ego and indifference that he thought the only way Vegas could be the future is with House gone.

#tdlr House saw Benny as the perfect face of his Legacy while Benny saw his legacy as a stagnant mosquito infested pond #its more complex as house certainly would of been irate if he hadn't known and the courier came to kick benny's ass #but more someone being mad youre fucking with their things #i likely thing that even in a more traditional father son relationship House is conditional and would force Benny to confrom more to his #standards as I also believe the Chairmen are more tightly monitered due to bennys unique relation to house and being the first tribe #so itd be smothering and oppressive for someone like Benny even though imposing his beliefs and standards would be how House shows affectio #and fatherly praise which would result in Benny probably wanting to act out even more. like the only way a father son dynamic is healthy an #works is if house would relent some control and show he sees benny as an equal which would never happen cause its house but its still tragi #to me cause house has that longing for something more personal to him than Vegas and tries to fill it with progress cause its rather hard #to create those bonds in the state he is in and benny was the closest thing to that and even that he inadvertently ruined #but on benny house kinda ruined him cause the chairmen for all intents and purposes liked and trusted benny as a leader after bingo who #benny really only killed because of the illusions of grandeur house put into a young impressionable mind and how bingo refused to hear him #not to absolve him of his wrongdoings and being a dick but benny didnt just attack bingo he challenged him and won and in the end while #nostalgic none of the chairmen choose to leave and go back to the old way which says something cause they can leave #this is long and honestly should a seperate post on benny cause i have thoughts on him and how more people need to add his all roads traits #to get a cohesive picture of how hed really act #benny gecko #benny fnv #fallout #fallout new vegas #robert edwin house #mr house fnv #mr house #ask #anon #sorry if this is confusing I have very indepth thoughts on all aspects and possibilites on how unhealthy and power inbalancey anything #with house would be but this is so interesting cause its oddly vulnerable for house of all people to disclose this to the courier

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maegalkarven · 6 months

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I understand what you’re saying about the Chosen of the dead 3, but I think Orin and Gortash are in the same boat. She wasn’t part of the plan at all, she killed or tried to kill her sibling to actively be part of the plan. She wasn’t even Bhaal’s chosen, she forced into that position herself. And if her abuse is grounds for understanding, then I’d say Gortash’s abuse is too. Sold to a devil as a child and tortured for years until he escapes and he grasps at anything to be in control so no one can control / hurt him again. I think he’s a shit person that did shit things, but I do like the character. And I don’t think Orin’s abuse outweighs that of Gortash. Someone/something messed them both up really bad. Bhaal uses Orin’s bloodlust and trauma to get her to do what he wants, Bane uses Gortash’s fear and need for control to get him to do what he wants. Gortash isn’t more/less redeemable because he’s the smart one that put the plan together. Also being Bane’s chosen means if he fails, he’s tortured for eternity. After being tortured for years, I’d imagine he’d do quite literally anything to not end up there again. Either they’re both redeemable or they’re both not in my eyes at least. Ketheric is the most redeemable for sure, he started out with a decent reason at least.

Gortash is my absolute fav actually because of all the layers. He's a fucking onion.

"Trapped in narrative- escaping the narrative"wise Gortash is the only one who actively walks into His.

He could do anything he wanted after escaping Hells. He wasn't exactly chained up or forced to climb the ladder to world domination.

Back then he still had a choice, even if his mind, twisted and turned by being Raphael's captive, didn't want that choice. Because fear is a strong thing, fear can control person in the worst possible ways. I believe Gortash chose "be the worst ever so no one can hurt him again" road and narrative himself.

But he CHOSE it. (The same way, some might argue, Ketheric chose not letting Isobel go, but I think Ketheric simply wasn't able to let her go)

Orin is different because she didn't exactly force herself into the narrative; she had always been in the narrative. She was born into the narrative.

No Bhaalspawn is ever free and no Bhaalspawn is ever not Bhaal's tool. She would inevitably be put on Durge's path because Bhaal loves putting his children against each other and because only One Bhaalspawn can remain. She even tried to play by the rules and challenged Durge, who didn't take her seriously and refused.

Both Orin and Gortash are more tragic than Ketheric because they're broken children who can never let it go.

Gortash is willingly not letting it go while Orin is literally trapped in it (her family, her cult, Father Bhaal in her head).

Ketheric is someone who, if convinced he can actually redeem himself (and if Isobel is alive), would try it.

Orin can only be redeemed if you forcibly take her out of her cult and cut off Bhaal's influence getting DIRECTLY INTO HER MIND. (Bhaal doesn't really have children, only victims)

Orin could easily be on Durge's place, tadpoled and amnesiac. Tbh I feel like her losing memory is the only way she could ever break free because for her where was nothing but Cult and Bhaal. She wasn't allowed anything else. Confronted with the truth about her upbringing, she's horrified; she also had been punished by Bhaal before for disobedience, Bhaal commands her what to do and Bhaal literally strips her of her own will and body because this is what Bhaal does. But if we can claw her out of it, knock her memories away and cut Bhaal off? Then she has a chance.

That's pretty much the only way she can have it (there's a reason Jaheira calls her lost soul).

But Gortash would not want redemption because he was not forced into the path of tyranny. He chose it. He quite likes it up on the top. He's comfortable over there being the worst and selling people and giving explosives to children. The only thing better would be if he had someone to share his kingdom with, someone who gets his genius.

If put on the ground, he will try to climb right back again. He doesn't care about freeing himself because in his mind only on the very top is where he is free. This narrative not his cage, it's his castle, he build it and he's not giving it up.

That's why any attempt to actually "redeem" him would fail because he is Not Interested in That. He is interested in Power and Being the Biggest and Strongest. Also so ppl would love him, idk how he plans to balance it out with his tyranny, but he pretty much requires the gaping audience. Admire him, everyone.

I have several plots of dragging him off his high horse bc the other alternative is his death, but all these plots require things to be the way where he's actively stripped of power in some way or another bc only his own survival will make him somewhat cooperate on an equal level (one particular ally, durge or tav, but more often durge aside). He is not a team player. He pretends he is.

There are, sure, some AU salvations for him, but no redemption because He Genuinely Does Not Regret a Thing, nor will he.

Neither is Orin, but Orin is a broken doll with a god of murder in her head. She lost herself so long time ago no one even recalls it.

Gortash has himself because no one ever had him. He will do anything for his survival and this is why he does not want or require redeeming. Not dying from Netherbrain, that's another story. But he inevitably always serves his own interests first.

Orin fights for the awful love and approval of a cruel god, Ketheric's love for his daughter transcends her death.

Orin and Ketheric's narratives are two sides of the same coin.

"A child craving affection of a cruel parent" VS "parent doing unimaginable horrors bc of the love for their child."

Gortash is out of that particular narrative, his narrative is "There's No One But Me. Only I Matter. No one loved me so I will love me in excess. No one loved me so no one deserves my love".

It is an echo and awful influence of his tragic past, but it's something he actively chooses. He loves that narrative of his, even if it doesn't exactly fulfill him 100% (because it's lonely on the top. Because somewhere deep inside Enver Flymm still lives. Because he can't let Enver Flymm go no matter now pathetic that past self of his is).

His tragedy is of being lonely af and not admitting it/not having anyone to match him in his genius, but not his Tyrant Path. This one he chose for himself.

The thing is, of course gods use their Chosen ones. I think Gortash knows that, and I think he also actively uses Bane. He wears the coat protecting him from the fear and is a chosen of a Dread Lord. That's telling. He doesn't actually serve Bane, he serves himself and aligns himself with Bane for as long as it works for him.

#lord enver gortash #enver gortash #ketheric thorm #orin the red #it's about the choice and the illusion of it #orin never had the illusion of choice #you don't have that being raised as a child of bhaal in a temple of bhaal #ketheric could not live with the choices he was given and so he broke the rules #gortash had choices but his vision was impaired by his life's experiences #he has a tunnel vision #someone once said gortash would def try to otherthrow bane if the control over the absolute was gained and i totes agree with it #and in the whole 'hubris' way too #There's nothing too high for him to climb #no heights he would not try to reach #no head he would not step on to climb #is it a tragedy of his messed up childhood? yeah. is he content with it? Yeah #me forcibly dragging enver from the top bc I love him: No. No power for you. get tadpoled. get abandoned by bane.#idk get a child what will lock you into a prison of caring for someone else. You will get Better No Matter How Much You Struggle #Enver Gortash is such a good example of Doing The Worst Choices for His Own Well Being #And actively destroying everything by that #like he can't outrun being human he can't outrun having feeling and needing others and being lonely #But gods does he try does this stupid fucker try

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whumpshaped · 7 months

Text

helle has used this tactic a hundred times already, and it always, always works... humans are so kind <3

masterlist

tw vampire whumper, mind control, illusions, home invasion, dehumanisation

Things were... not good. Beck remembered begging Helle to stay and take him as their regular bloodbag just so he could avoid the torture that came with saying no, but it all seemed... distant now. Way more distant than the ache in his neck, which was always, always there. He woke up with it, he went to sleep with it, he had it reopened and ripped further somewhere in the meantime.

He hated it.

Sometimes he thought about staying inside forever, never letting Helle touch him again. They hadn't asked to be invited in, yet, and he hated that he considered it an act of mercy that he couldn't exploit. Because if he did, then what was Helle going to do the next time they thought about giving him a semblance of dignity?

So he stayed outside every night, obediently awaiting his master by the front door of his apartment complex. Helle rewarded it with gentle praise and sweet nothings, leaving his mind intact and his home undisturbed.

Until they got bored, of course. Because they always did, didn't they? Being good was boring, being kind was boring, and letting their human have any nook he could hide away in was boring. But taking that away? Oh, that must've been thrilling.

It wasn't too thrilling on his part when a sort of familiar stranger showed up on his doorstep, dishevelled and frantic, talking about a vampire that was after them.

"The vampire is looking for you," they'd said. "They can't get to you here, can they? If they can't, please–"

"Get inside!" He had stepped aside to let the stranger in, not even considering logistics or believability. He extended a heartfelt invitation into his home without a second thought, because of course Helle's antics had been calculated, and of course their stupid kindness was just to make him let his guard down and believe they were merciful — and had no intention of intruding on his home if he behaved.

The charm dropped instantly, and he suddenly didn't need to put in effort to recognise why the stranger was so familiar. Their features clicked back into place, and he wasn't haphazardly glancing at a mixed up puzzle anymore, he was looking straight at the vampire he so desperately wanted to keep out. They still looked dishevelled, but also positively radiant.

"Why, thank you," they said with a grin, running their fingers through their hair to bring some order back into their look.

"That– no," he muttered, in complete disbelief. "You can't– I didn't– I was charmed, that doesn't count– that's not genuine–"

Helle looked quite amused by the way he slowly backed up. He didn't even have any confidence in his own words. "Enthrallment, yes, that would count as cheating. Charm, however... you can definitely invite a stranger into your home. I did not make you do anything." They leaned against the door frame, still just teasing, still just building anticipation.

"No, no, it doesn't count, it's not genuine– you can't, you can't come in! Please don't– please, this is the only place I feel any sort of safety anymore, what more do you want from me?" He was beginning to get desperate, and he was almost whining, begging for peace... and the vampire just watched with that same grin, if not even more delighted, then slowly stepped over the threshold.

"Boo," they said softly, and Beck felt yet another piece of his soul be shattered by the stupid, childish taunt. "I am awfully curious about your home. I cannot wait to explore it fully."

taglist: @whumpsday @the-scrapegoat @hidden-dreamland @dismemberment-on-a-tuesday-night @delicateprincepaper @whumppmuhw @florissimps @nicolepascaline @oliversrarebooks

#at my beck and call #whump writing #whump #helle #beckett #vampire whumper #mind control #illusions #home invasion #dehumanisation

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