#i hate fanon lazarus pit
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STOP IT!!! STOP! IT! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PIT MADNESS!!! THE LAZARUS PIT DOESN'T MAKE JASON ANGRY!!! THOSE EMOTIONS ARE GENUINE!!! JASON DOESN'T SEE GREEN!!! STOP IT!!! STOP IT!! PLEASE!!! LAZARUS PIT MADNESS IS THE WORST THING THAT HAS COME FROM FANON AND I SAY THIS AS A TIM STAN!1! LET JASON BE ANGRY!! LET HIM HAVE RAGE!! HE DESERVES TO FEEL ANGRY!!! HIS DEATH COMES FROM BRUCE'S LACK OF TRUST AND UNWILLINGNESS TO REACH OUT!!1! THIS DOESN'T MAKE BRUCE'S GRIEF ANY LESS REAL BUT ALSO STOP MINIMIZING JASON'S FEELINGS TO THE PIT MADNESS!!! STOP IT!! PLEASE!
no but seriously. jason's feelings of anger and rage and hurt and betrayal and despair and ANGER are real!! they don't come from the pit. him beating tim's ass comes from a very real place and i Don't think he regrets it because his vision was 'green'. i think he might regret it because he was dressed up in a party city robin costume and that's embarrassing as hell but tim deserved it. if he wanted to kill tim, he would've. that was just a show of power. jason doesn't see green when he gets angry. that would be like cutting ra's slack for every sick and twisted thing he's done. i'm so sick n tired of fanon giving jason this easy ass out for all he's done. tim shouldn't forgive jason's actions because he was "influenced by the pit". tim should forgive him because he understands he was a little shit to jason's memory and he also wants to pummel his replacement. like, i'm such a tim fan but it's exhausting to see jason (and damian but that's for another day) be painted as this villian in his story. jason's emotions and reactions are, well maybe not valid but they don't come from this mystical green lava goop. they come from his relationships with bruce and how he wanted bruce to use his position of batman as a way to enact vengeance as a father but bruce couldn't because batman comes before anything else. jason's emotions come from him wanting bruce to trust him, to believe in him. but bruce has too big of a stick up his ass to see the forest past the trees. bruce could've called clark in to help save jason, bruce could've called the flash or the titans or any other member of the justice league. he could've ensured the joker would never hurt another person by curb stomping his ass, he could've refused to take tim, another robin, another child who could get killed, under his wing. he could've, he could've, he could've. but bruce didn't. and that's the issue. by over playing the pit's influence on jason, you rob him of any sense of autonomy.
#jason todd#lazarus pit#batman#dc comics#dcu#bruce wayne#batfamily#batfamily dynamics#i hate fanon lazarus pit#seriously you do jason such a disservice by focusing on it
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As someone who supports Batkids' rights and wrongs, it's still wild seeing people getting surprised that Jason has indeed committed *murder*
Not once. Not twice. But a *shit* load of murder
Makes you wonder how they'd react to finding out the amount of murder the rest of the Batkids have committed O_o
It's wild to me bc that's the reason there is conflict between Bruce and Jason- Jason thinks murder is okay and Bruce very much does not so I'm wondering how people could miss that
#ask#anon#like racking my brain#so far ive come up with they've only interacted with the popular fanon interpretation maybe#they're just like its not Jason killing its the pit#god i hate the lazarus pit excuse#idk tho even then jason is still for murder in popular fanon so like#(..wait is he its been too long since i interact with that boy in popular fanon i forgot lol)
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so tired of dp x dc things. phandom I love you but leave my blorbos alone you are killing them
#if i see more jason mischaracterization for the sake of making him vibe with danny i will scream#yes theyre both not dead whatever#jason is a serial killer tho. and i like that stop ignoring that/taking away his agency in that#its fanon lazarus pit rage 2.0 and i hate it#screams into the void
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I’ve just been reminded again how much I hate the way fanon treats Lazarus Pit Madness, because there’s actually compelling (ok personally satisfying/amusing) retcons I would LOVE to jokingly attribute to the Lazarus Pit if it was well known at causing odd, longer term effects, but the way Jason fanon goes on about it makes me super doctrinaire about its actual effects.
Because if we are discussing ‘weird Pit effects’, Dinah got time-reversed Pit madness that convinced her to date Ra’s al Ghul in Birds of Prey, Bane getting dunked in Gotham Knights and his madness being cured led to a nagging tendency towards better behaviour that eventually turned into his Secret Six run (it eventually wore off, thanks to universe reboots), and Cass became more vulnerable to drug induced behaviour that Slade exploited into her Evil Cass arc. It probably also cured Edmund Dorrance of his narrative invulnerability to death, given he doesn’t get any subsequent surprise survivals and was dead for Blackest Night.
There’s also the hilarious concept that, given the timing of Kate’s run in ‘Tec and Batman & Robin #9, Kate Kane went into the Lazarus Pit unrelated to Bruce Wayne and came out his cousin (and personally immune to Flashpoint). Maybe getting her resurrection alongside the clone body DNA did weird stuff to her family tree.
#fanon ruining all my fun#I can come up with so many weird lingering effects#but no#for my own sanity’s sake (and Joker remaining mad) Pit effects are TEMPORARY
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i know we talk about fanon sometimes like it's a monolith, but actually i have an argument that the fanon(tm) is actually a little more diverse than we think sometimes and i say this because i have categorized and subtyped the various different kinds.
so to start, we have two broad categories: category 1//pre-ethiopia fanon and category 2//post-ethiopia fanon. pre-ethiopia canon is by and large much more simple and straightforward. post-ethiopia is where we start to see more variety and different subtypes.
tim:
pre-ethiopia: probably skipped two grades. bad parents jack and janet simultaneously care immensely about both tim taking over the company one day and also don't care at all about ensuring their son actually survives until adulthood to do so. survival of the fittest, baby, you're a failure of an heir if you can't use the stove independently by age 4. free space of "criminal neglect" being mentioned at some point. camera stalker to the point where he has batman's patrol routes memorized. jason is definitely his idol.
post-ethiopia: subtype (a)//robin: bad parents jack and janet remain (even though janet should have died years ago), leaving tim all alone in the cold drake manor. this 15 year old, rather than reveling in this independence allowing him more freedom to do robin without having to worry about his parents, is immensely sad about this state of affairs. bruce probably hates him for not being jason. jason hates him until he realizes that tim is "just a kid" who has "bad parents" and needs to be saved. physical abuse from his dad highly likely. most likely jason is his idol, but there may be some mention about how much he loves dick. subtype (b)//red robin: addicted to coffee, hasn't slept in weeks. everyone in the batfamily simultaneously hates him and depends on him to keep the entire operation running without any thanks or recognition. nobody loves him, definitely thinks he's not part of the family. they will have to prostrate themselves when they realize the damage they've done to him. subtype (c)//the jerk: a far rarer type of fanon, but still fanon all the same. this subtype is the anti-tim fanon, a backlash fanon, where basically all of tim's bad traits are amplified to the point where he is borderline sociopathic, doesn't really have any sympathy or care for anyone else, and is so super judgemental and snotty to the point that yes, he is no longer recognizable as tim drake and this is officially a fanon. and not that tim doesn't ever show bad traits in canon (he is flawed, like all of them), but really. he does care about other people immensely. he cares about gotham immensely. they all do. even if chuck dixon used him for heavy-handed conservative messages in the 90s, these aren't, like, enduring character traits. most likely to be seen if we're trying to promote another batboy who is getting woobified.
jason:
pre-ethiopia: the only panels that matter are "robin gives me magic" and anything that implies a love of school/good grades. no negative traits, if we give him any negative traits then we are feeding into the idea that he was a "bad" robin just like dc tries to do. so, so focused on the victims and downtrodden of gotham (probably more than dick ever did) which is why tim admires him so much. he is Of The City. immediately zeros in on tim as a victim of terrible parents. ever kind and understanding and sympathetic. a true champion of the people. calls bruce dad, hyphenated his last name. calls dick "dickhead" as a term of loving endearment and dick is seemingly okay with this.
post-ethiopia: subtype (a)//red hood: lazarus pit madness, baby. not at fault for anything he did, it was all the pit. once the anger fades, he realizes that he has turned into the monster who killed him and he feels great shame for this, has to make amends (most likely to tim, for titans tower). subtype (b)//sadboy jason: woobified jason is just sad :( his dad didn't love him, his brother didn't love him, they replaced him. he just wants to go home, desperately. the batfamily must make amends for not grieving him well enough/let him know how much they love and miss him and then he can go home. highly likely was damian's beloved brother in the league and considered talia his mom.
dick:
pre-ethiopia: only eats cereal. comes home every weekend to do his laundry (u know what, good on u dick. i too went home a lot of weekends after i moved out so i wouldn't have to pay for coin laundry at my apartment complex. it's called being smart and strategic.) and hang out with his dad, bruce, and little brother, jason. also has a hyphenated last name. a little dim. always happy. all about the hugs.
post-ethiopia: subtype (a)//nightwing: is allowed to be a good brother to tim, but will never be tim's favorite. feels immensely guilty about how terribly he treated jason as robin, must make amends for this. very bland personality. subtype (b)//post-dickbats: devil incarnate. plays favorites with his brothers and has room in his heart to only love two (neither of which are tim), that is until he realizes how badly he has treated tim and feels immensely bad and guilty that he's ignored tim for so long and then is finally able to redeem himself. probably threatened tim with arkham and told everyone tim was nuts. subtype (c)//dick actually gets to be woobified for once: on rare occasion, dick gets to be the one who gets constantly downtrodden and used by his siblings even if this isn't actually really super in character for them. like i said, super rare. usually seen so that dick can lose his temper at his siblings who are being immature jerks for no reason. cathartic if you're tired of dick being beat down by the writers at dc, but still fanon imo because you have to rely on someone (usually tim) acting more out of character and far more immature towards dick than normal canon and more fanon-y relationship dynamics (such as tim & damian constantly fighting and really hating each other) to get to this point. ....will kind of infantilize an adult man in his mid-twenties.
damian:
pre-ethiopia: actually gets two subtypes!! subtype (a)//doesn't exist: damian who? subtype (b)//young child: we bring him in as a 3 year old, and he's basically a totally different character. probably only meaningful character trait is total adoration for his older brothers.
post-ethiopia: subtype (a)//meanest child in the world: hates tim, is actively trying to murder him constantly and make sure that tim knows he is not a wayne/not welcome in the family. revels in having successfully stolen all of dick's love and attention. no character growth and all the adults just let him be mean without addressing the behavior, everything gets handwaved because of how he was brought up, but it's clear he knows right from wrong and is specifically choosing to do wrong. subtype (b)//he's just a 10 year old, so we have to treat him like *checks notes* a 5 year old: actually incapable of knowing right from wrong because of his upbringing, and he can't be at fault or responsible for any of his behavior because he's only 10 years old, and 10 year olds are too young to know any better when they've grown up in the league, despite extensive education on all subjects growing up likely including philosophy and morality. likely to be the woobified and infantilized one here. needs to be treated like a 3 year old with kid gloves because he's just a kid, after all. when he realizes he is "bad", he is very depressed and sad. often has no knowledge of the outside world, must be taught by his ever patient and loving brothers.
#did i miss any you think???#obligatory i don't actually hate fanon you do you idc#this is a lighthearted post okay!!! tim and jason are the biggest fanon offenders but there's room for dick and damian too dw#anyways *i* think it's helpful to contextualize what category/subtype when discussing fanon#has this been done before??? my greatest apologies if it has
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I don't like how some writers bash or exaggerate the other batkids' behaviour and personalities in order to whumpify their favorite batfam member.
If Dick Grayson is the main character in the fic, then every other batfam member are suddenly incapable of doing the most simplest tasks and ask Dick to help them. He solves every single problem of his family because he is the 'eldest'. And he always puts a smile on his face and let's them treat him like shit.
Yes, it is true that Dick has more responsibility compared to his siblings. Not because he is the eldest; but because he has to keep an entire city safe all by himself, mentor teen sidekicks, lead the Titans, go on missions with the JL and so on. And he does this not because he has to, but because he wants to.
Also he may be more emotionally open than rest of his siblings, but thats just it. Compared to his siblings. Nightwing says puns and jokes yeah, but he is not at all can be classified as emotionally vulnurable. Dick led and mentored so many teams, and you can't do that while being light hearted and smiley all the time.
Dick is serious and firm when needed to. He doesn't baby any of his siblings (especially Damian), or act like an angel all the time. He has anger management issues and does not take bullshit from anyone. Not even his family.
He lives in Bludhaven to get away from the craziness that is Gotham. He loves his family, but he simply does not have the patience to deal with them all the time.
When the fic is about Jason, most of the plot is about him being dead and how Bruce betrayed him by replacing him. That Dick threw him in Arkham and everyone treats him like a monster.
Well firstly, Jason is not all about his death. He doesn't really bring it up unless he wants to make a point to Bruce.
Jason doesn't hate Tim because he replaced him. Jason hates Bruce, for taking in another Robin when the first one actively get murdered because of it. He beat Tim up to prove to him and Bruce that taking in a child, and making him his partner is seriously wrong. Jason hates the idea of kids becoming soldiers for a war they didn't start.
Another point is that after Jason came back from the dead, he wasn't an anti-hero. He was a full on villain that tried to kill most of the Batfamily. And no I'm not talking about him beating Tim up in the Titans tower (It was to send a message to Bruce) or cutting his throat (which he didn't. It was a small scratch):
I'm talking about Battle for the Cowl, when he beat Tim up badly because he refused to be his Robin. Jason thought Tim was dead at the end of their fight (Tim slowed down his heartbeat). And this is his reaction:
And yet again in Battle for the Cowl, he shot Damian. Which resulted him getting more than 70 stitches:
Also this was his reaction when a nuclear powered supervillain blew up Bludhaven:
He poisoned 82 inmates while 'Dick sent poor Jason into prison :('
Now does this mean Jason is a bad character? Fuck no! Infact he is one of my favorite characters. Jason is such an interesting character and sometimes you can't help but condone his mistakes no matter how bad they are. Even I do this.
So what I mean is that, we should stop babying him and see him as the flawed character he is. Every single character has their own flaws and that's what makes them special.
Jason was a hero, then a villain, then an anti-hero, then again a hero.
Also he doesn't get pit episodes. The only time he got one was right after getting out of the pit. Lazarus pit did not made him violent and it's not the blame for Jason's past actions. Jason was awake and aware of the things he did. And he feels guilty. But he learned to forgive. Both himself and Bruce.
Our next member is Tim Drake. Fanon Tim Drake is a coffee addict, he is thin and small, is quiet and doesn't believe he is apart of the family. Dick stole Robin from him and gave it to 'evil and cruel' Damian who bullies him every time they interact. Jason always calls him replacement and threatens to kill him most of the time. Dick is a monster that tried to lock him up in Arkham.
God I cringed writing this. Anyways firstly Tim is, in fact, not a coffee addict. I'd say he is more of a tea person and only drinks coffee to stay awake.
Tim is not short and all skin and bones. He eats properly and is very muscled. Especially around his back and biceps. He is also not short either.
Tim is quiet, yes. But not in a shy way. He is cold and calculative and sometimes a little apathatic. He isn't scared to do what's necessary and is always ready to sacrifice himself for the sake of the mission. He also definitely sees himself apart of the family.
Another really misunderstood point is that Dick took Robin from him, when it was actually Alfred who gave Damian the Robin suit.
Yes, Damian tried to kill him multiple times and it was very traumatising for Tim. But they do get along most of the time. In fact Tim may be the second closest to Damian among the family. Because no matter what happens he loves his little brother. As it was shown when he hallucinated and hugged Damian after he died.
Jason and him may be at odds from time to time, but Jason gets along with him more than most of his siblings.
And Dick most certainly did not try to put him in Arkham. Bruce was dead and Dick saw Tim. How devastated he was, so he offered him to get therapy. Like a good brother would do.
Last but not least is Damian. I think most of the time Damian centric fics manage to represent him properly. But let's start with the ones that are the most cliche-d and wrongly written.
Damian talks the Queen's British and is spoiled. Dick Grayson is his actual father and Bruce always insults him. He trains all day and goes to patrol at night. He hates his mother, always gets his ass handed to him in a fight. Tim Drake treats him horribly and everyone calls him Demon or Demon Brat. Jason is the best brother in the world and him and Dick always protect him from Bruce's wrath. Alfred annoyes him and Damian doesn't really care about him. All of his personality is summed up with: "Yes, Father."
In actuality, Damian is most of the time sassy or straight up mocking. He uses slangs and isn't scared of disrespecting Ra's or Talia and Bruce (in fact he may be enjoying it a little).
Dick Grayson is in fact not his father figure. That title belongs to Alfred, who was always there whenever he needed him.
Damian plays video games and his favorite one is cheese vikings.
He also loves his mother and forgives her even through all does horrible things she does to him. He is most likely conditioned to feel that way. Because it's not normal to treat someone normally after they murder you. He is also an exceptionally good fighter.
Tim Drake is possibly his second closest sibling. They banter and fight sometimes, yes. But they still very much care for each other. When Tim was thought to be dead, Damian was shown to be holding his bo staff and mourning.
Him and Jason were never close. Jason tried to kill him and so did Damian. They don't know each other well and Damian does not want to; since at the time he was Robin, Jason was a villain that actively tried to hurt him and Dick.
I don't think anyone ever called him a Demon Brat. Or if they did it was probably like one time, since I couldn't find any panels that refer to him that way.
Damian is the most rebellious and hot headed Robin. He doesn't shy from saying what wants or stepping up to Bruce. In fact those two are the ones who fight the most in the family. Even more than Tim and Damian.
And Bruce doesn't always insult or bench him. He just straight up ignores him or his needs and always puts him in second.
There are obviously way more than these, but I'll stop for today. No hate to the creators, this is just my own opinion.
#damian wayne#dc comics#batfamily#batfam#tim drake#bruce wayne#jason todd#dick grayson#fanon batfam#canon batfam
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So I've been trying to read more stuff on the al ghuls in comics and I already know so much can be.....counterintuitive depending on writing, but at one point I think in son of the demon ras says he fought the axis powers then death and the maidens he left Nyssa in a concentration camp 😭😭😭 how do u even parse thru everything tbhhhhh
Death and the Maidens is a run i read once and never want to touch again. Might be one of the worst comic runs i have ever read. I don’t hate many things but I hate that run so much I wish I could forget it.
It’s exactly what I mean when I say there’s moments of Ra’s being so unnecessarily evil, and it’s usually just to make another character look better/stronger/tougher. (Fanon does this too, especially with the other bat boys who afaik don’t have deep relationships with Ra’s like Bruce and Damian do.)
What reason does Ra’s (who is supposed to be a Brown Man and an extreme environmentalist) have to work with Hitler and let his own family suffer at the hand of Nazis??? Most of that was to build up Nyssa’s character as the “feisty bad girl oldest sister with daddy issues”. I think that wasn’t a great choice.
For many obvious reasons. In a world where anything can happen because it’s fiction, why use the suffering and tragedy of real people to portray a character being bad/evil? Why do you have to pair him off with some of the worst real life people? Also, how relevant is Nyssa’s entire character anyways? She doesn’t show up or do anything significant anymore. I would argue she wasn’t significant then either.
(There was also the weird pseudo incestuous thing with Nyssa and Talia where she took off all of Talia’s clothes and had her crawling around and clinging to her while naked that just…feels like it was written by A Man™️)
And it’s very much a product of its time. The 2000’s were…kind of bad for a lot of comics. It’s not a wild thing to believe that the villain who’s supposed to be Arab man in a post 9/11 world is compared to the likes of hitler for no reason other than to show readers he’s supposed to be a bad guy that we all need to hate.
Recently, in comics, Ra’s has had a redemption and has admitted his wrongdoings. Followed by him turning himself over to the authorities and wanting to share the science of the Lazarus Pit and his knowledge of Physiology with the rest of the world. Damian later came to understand that Ra’s did this because he was 100% serious about turning his life around and an “I’m sorry I was bad” wasn’t enough to prove to everyone that he wanted to be better.
Everyone can decide for themselves if they like this take on Ra’s or if they prefer him evil. At the end of the day it’s not my job to make sure everyone enjoys the character the way I do and learns what to ignore or look past. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That being said…nobody has to like my art or my headcanons or my takes on characters. Especially the Al Ghul’s. The things I make are not canon and I really don’t want them to be canon. I just like to create things and I like drawing cute stuff ! So…can y’all please be mindful of some of the tags and comments you leave on some of my sketches 🥲
I guess I kind of waffled on….the short answer would be some comics are very much written poorly or with some kind of bias and it’s up to you to decide if you want to acknowledge it. (Canon doesn’t seem to be acknowledging these things anymore so there’s no harm in us being like “yeah that sucked” and moving on to something else)
And to remember that at the end of the day, Ra’s is not real and he has never hurt real people.
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Do you have any good Jason fic recs that don’t have pit madness in them? I really hate that fanon trope in particular and it’s almost never tagged so I would appreciate it! You seem to know where the good stuff is lol
Yes! I'm less well-versed with Jason fics, so a lot of these don't have him as the main character, but they do focus on him and don't have pit madness!
The Flightless Birds series by Ionaperidot - Alt!Bruce meets a Bruce with kids, and starts picking them up from different dimensions. Includes catatonic!Jason, JJ!Tim, Talon!Dick, assassin!Damian and assassin!Cass. It's really beautifully written and a good long read!
Hey there ghosts, it's me, ya Robin by SummerBummin - Tim can see ghosts. Jason is dead. Cue Jason bothering Tim and trying to help his dad from self-destructing.
Say Uncle by @megaerakles - Tim needs a fake uncle and chooses Jason as the best option. I don't remember this having Lazarus Pit Madness, but if it does show up, then I apologise! EDIT: the author reblogged this and wrote in the tags that there isn’t any Pit Madness, apart from some lines that could be interpreted that way, but it wasn’t written to purposefully suggest it. Thank you so much for the info! (and for writing the fic!!!)
Now you will not swell the rout/Of lads that wore their honours out by SonoSvegliato - Tim needs to learn how to fight properly, but Bruce refuses to let him learn properly. Cue him getting into street fights, where a mysterious stranger gives tips and heckles him.
Like the fucking chipmunk? by Sunpops1 - Before Ethopia, Jason receives a strange package warning him not to trust Sheila. The weirdness of it keeps him in Gotham to investigate who their stalker may be.
Game Over [Would you like to reload from your last checkpoint?] by tyrianzzz - The batsons get tossed through time and find themselves back as their younger selves. I can't remember if Jason had Lazarus Pit Madness, but his old body doesn't, so it hasn't really shown up iirc.
The Power of Family and This Stalker I Found by JackHawksmoor - Bruce finds Jason after he crawls out of the grave, and looks at how Tim might have joined the BatFamily anyway.
As always, if people have other suggestions, let me know/put it in the comments or reblogs!!
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I’m sorry if you’ve answered this before as I’m new to the blog (and really enjoying your thoughts!!) but I have a Jason question for you. What’s your opinion on the whole fanon pit madness stuff the fandom seems obsessed about with Jason? I personally hate it because I think it’s problematic and often times veers into abuse apologism as well as flattening his character (and not being canon lol) but I’m super interested to hear your opinions!
no need to apologise, i mentioned it and interacted with many different takes on the topic, but never made a more articulate post about it on my own, so it's nice to have a pretext to do so. especially that my opinion doesn't really reflect any of popular stances on the topic in the fandom. this got very long, but: tldr; i don't like neither canon nor fanon depictions of how the lazarus pit affected jason, but there might be still something of value there. there's lots to talk about though; i refer to aspects such as ableism and the lazarus pit lore in wider dc universe. more under the cut:)
i addressed this many times, but the general assumption that the pit madness is purely fanon is actually not true. while it was never explicitly named in jason-centric comics, it is a prevalent theme in most of his pre-n52 appearances. there's, for example, tony daniel's interview, where he talks about it, and some editorial comments on the matter. the titans towers incident was supposed to happen under the pit's influence as well.
the fact that it appears in comics that used to constitute canon doesn't make it any better, but to the editorial boards' credit, it's not really relevant anymore. yet, the events tied to the concept remain popular in the fandom.
i know that many people focus on the abuse apologism angle when talking about it, and while it is a valid concern, i'm more worried about... the blatant ableism that it comes with. i talked about it briefly here and here, tldr: jason is also portrayed to be going through a (pit-induced) psychotic breakdown, as he has clinical delusions. and in this state – a state of extreme mental health crisis, he is shown to attack rather random targets (because, i'm sorry, tim is a random target given jay's general motivations). this is an extremely distasteful plotline that contributes to SMI stigma. so, to reiterate, what i'm saying is that maybe we should not spend our time perpetuating the idea that being "crazy" or "insane" is excessively used to excuse abuse, but rather ask why dc writers even tied these notions together?
needles to say, i'm not a fan of how the madness trope is used in jason's storyline, not really because i'm worried about whether he is held responsible for his actions – it's not like half of these actions would be committed if not for the vague notion of the lazarus interference combined with the ableist representation of psychosis.
and if you read more of my meta posts, maybe you noticed a common thread in how i like to headcanon that jason needed to actively suppress his innate compassion (known from his original robin run) as a form of self-sacrifice, and painstakingly forge himself into a weapon despite flinching at his own violence. i also tend to emphasise the circumstances of his resurrection, his trauma and his desperate dedication to fixing the world as his main motivations. and the pit madness doesn't exactly go well with those.
having said so, i think there is some space for layering this with the effects of the lazarus pit, and i can't imagine completely getting rid of it when it comes to jason's storyline as a whole. i think people sometimes forget that lazarus pits have been a part of dc comics' lore for much longer than jason's character even existed. i haven't read the recent realeses (i will be catching up soon), so i'm not sure what the writers are doing with them nowadays, but the whole point of the pools is that the power of healing, preserving youth (or even resurrecting fresh corpses to life in some versions) is supposed to come at price. this price has to make at least a crack in the user's humanity. it was previously referred to as for example a "lazarus fever," and usually was followed by even just temporary episode of rage. (i've read it a long time ago, but you might want to check out for example "the lazarus affair," a storyline from early 80s). and well, it would pose some difficulties to explain how jason is running and kicking without being exposed to the pit (unless you want to say that whatever resurrected him healed him completely or that he spent more time recovering, fair game), and the pit has to have some consequences. the tragedy of it is, of course, that he was not put in there consensually, and he would never want to compromise his humanity nor control were he given that choice. so it has to have at least some effect on his state, at least for a while, unless we want to throw world-building out of the window (which you can do, if that's your preference.)
i guess the question is, can we do anything with this element of the story so that it doesn't hinder the significance of other prominent forces, such as grief? maybe it's not that bad that the story isn't straightforward. i know that lots of people like to claim that jason is completely autonomous, but aren't the circumstances of his resurrection already affecting him to the point where a hint of "who's driving" body horror is implied? isn't he struggling with feelings of losing control, which also make him so fixated and methodical? and maybe there is something to be said about the potential internal conflict of wanting to detach himself further from everything that makes him alive and humane (as it makes him vulnerable) vs being desperate to reclaim what the pit has taken from him. i don't know. what i know is that the reverse-baptism lazarus imagery is quite appealing and that maybe all the talk about it helps to bridge the extreme gap in 80s robin -> modern red hood characterisation, by outsourcing at least some of his anger to be foreign to him in an uncanny way.
but then again, it's also not my favourite theme, and i definitely don't centre it in my reading, nor gravitate to interpretations that do. you could even say that the pit influence was very short-lived and didn't matter in the grand scheme of things at all (apart from adding up to a pile of jay's trauma), and it would probably make sense with how inconsistent comics are anyway. i definitely don't want to see any outward psychotic symptoms in it's portrayal, nor for it to render jay irrational to the point where mindless violence overrides all of his motivations (like it did in many books before and as it usually does in fanfiction). however, i still think that it's interesting to look at the narrative in a wider scope and consider what i mentioned.
#+just remembered that the concern about lazarus' influence on jason's mind was already brought up in the lost days also#anyway!#thank you for asking!! i had a lot of fun writing this analysis#i could say much more about it. but admittedly#as i said#i don't care about lazarus pits enough to elaborate further#aswered#dc comics#jason todd#lazarus pit#<- tagging it for myself in case i'm asked about it again because it comes up a lot
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To the anon: Jason has some good stories, it’s just that people on here tend to fundamentally misunderstand the character and it drives me up a wall lol. Jason has such an inconsistent characterization that’s there’s like 10 different versions of him to choose. I personally prefer the stuff where he isn’t an evil asshole but those have their charm to some people too. Fanon Jason however is perhaps my least favorite character of all time and I hate him so much. He’s a limp dick little shit who goes poor me every 5 seconds 😂
yeah!! jason has hype from the fans bc he actually does have good stories but the problem comes in when fans who havent read the good stories start playing a game of telephone and end up with "hes driven to madness by the lazarus pit but really hes just a sad guy that misses his family :("
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Thank you for your response! I guess I should have been more clear. I don’t mind making Jason a softer and kinder character, when I say abuse apologism i’m referring to those fics where they have Jason outright torture Tim or something and then say that the pit made him do said torturing (the enemy to caretaker stuff you said you hated). The way some writer use the pit feel like a metaphor for abuse and abuse apologism sometimes, even though I don’t think they are intentionally doing so. Saying Jason can’t control his anger or that he isn’t himself when he’s doing those things is very common tactics that abusers say to their victims, I know from firsthand experience. I agree that Jason should have some of his more reprehensible actions erased, but I’d rather the fic writers just exclude them from the story than say it wasn’t his fault he did it.
okay yes the typo makes the sense, i must admit i was wondering if that was the case! i also replied that way because pit madness has been briefly associated with psychosis symptoms in canon; i talked about it more here and here (+ my opinion on lazarus pit here)
i repeated a lot of what i said there in my answer to you, but i am more clear on ableist elements there – there's for example a moment where dick indicates that jason is going through a psychotic break. and also, in canon he is called "psychotic," "deranged" and "delusional" quite a lot in that period.
obviously, as you said-- the way fanon portrays it is deeply problematic and it does echo abuse apologia, which is also why i never interact with this content. in early red hood canon, where jason is often identified as "crazy," the narrative and other characters are much less sympathetic to him and jason doesn't ever indicate that he thinks he is out of control; rather, i'd say he is obsessed with framing himself as someone acting out of his violation.
either way! i guess we are all clear and agree with each other on it, then. thanks for chatting for me (and sorry it took me so long to answer!!)
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(porting from comments in to want all that is not mine.)
1) It is a world of modern cultivation! Instead of hero/villain teams/families, they are sects like the League of Assassins. Sometimes the cooperate across Sects and have their kids network lol.
2) Ah, I might have shot myself in the foot here but eh, that's the problem with taking snapshots. Chapter 2 takes place RIGHT after the culmination of Jason/SJ initial revenge where he forces Bruce to choose between the Joker and Jason/SJ. In canon, Bruce cuts Jason's neck and Jason had rigged the building to blow. This is where I incorporate fanon/headcanon: Jason Todd is immortal after the mess with Superboy Prime who ripped up reality. So that's why he's fine and dandy despite getting his throat cut then exploding in a building. I also changed canon up a bit to have the later kids be around in the timeline when Under the Red Hood happens. If DC can erase them then I can insert them anywhere lol!! He has some interaction with them but most of his knowledge is from observation from afar & information from Talia, especially since he had to plan around them.
And oh man I love your theory on YQY! Tbh, I was thinking that YQY was perma-dead with the shattering of Xuan Su. SQQ was just hoping/imposing YQY onto people he can track as a similar role in his life because if their other martial siblings are around then so is YQY! There is still a possibility of reconciling! He can't stand the thought of YQY being gone. YQY was a constant no matter how distant they got. He wants someone to lash out at, to blame but subconsciously he knows and that is why he's harder on LQG and SQH who do have their memories and they are people he can punish for their past life. Which leads us to!
3) I'll be honest, when conceiving this story, I was deciding between SJ being Helena Bertinelli, Stephanie Brown, and Jason Todd. In the first chapter, I was still on the path of Stephanie Brown in fact! The use of the Pit was out of respect and a favor to The One Who is All. SJ would have to figure out his relationship with LQG who, yes he's thankful to be alive but they were also bitter enemies. But, I thought there was more juice to Jason Todd and his relationships. (if it wasn't a re-trend, I would do a chapter about Mia and JT | SJ)
Cass and Jason are such interesting mirrors unintentionally. They would have been the same age! Jason thought his mother was Lady Shiva for a time! Cass is very much anti-killing to the point that it is a tenet of her self while Jason believes that killing is necessary.
Because of that, CC | LQG is very wary and distrustful of JT | SJ. Not only do they have the baggage of their beliefs, but due to CC taking a drop in a Lazarus Pit after Lady Shiva killed her, she has memories of her past life too. So while LQG wants to bridge the gap, his values prevent him from fully accepting JT | SJ. Meanwhile, for JT | SJ, LQG is one of the few who can understand him since he remembers. But at the same time, due to LQG's constant fights/words in their past life, his reputation got worse in the Sect that when he died, SJ got the blame for it and was the strongest charge against him. Rationally, he knows LQG didn't die on purpose but you don't control your feelings, only how you react to them. This, plus the background (YQY is not there to be angry at, only having proxies), plus their oil and water opinions, gets the volatile mess that is their relationship. So sometimes they're civil, other times, they are scratching each others eyes out. Just very messy and the addition of Stephanie Brown | SY is about to set it on fire.
You are right that he doesn't hate Tim, only what Tim represented in Bruce's life. Him hurting Tim was just hurting an extension of Bruce. Similar to the above, SJ's kinda using SQH as a proxy for his issues with YQY since he remembers their past life but also. He was a traitor so! They do not get along either. JT | SJ gets a 3 for 1 special by pursuing SB | SY and pissing off SQH, LQG, AND Bruce at the same time lol.
(Side note about TD | SQH | Airplane bro - he is a special case of not having died and revived by the Lazarus Pit. This is another case of fanon/headcanon: TD has a strange knack of retaining memories or knowledge he shouldn't have and being just. a very meta boy. Which is why I made Tim = SQH LOL. Like why does he remember what the old timeline was like? Why is referencing the old events? Why does he remember the XMen xover? HOW does he remember meeting Dick at the circus? In the newer continuity, he would have been a BABY. Etc etc)
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Like lol your avatar is full of fanon creations from the hair streak which is fanon to elseworld only canon in the main comics to the 100% fanon scar. You just stuff of quality and depth. Fanon has that if you look. Canon is not inherently better. The comics are great and should be read but don't lump every fan creators work together and make it one thing. Fanon isn't unified and it disagrees on every aspect you brought up. Find fan creators that make content in your fan interpretation as well.
My profile pic? Yeah, it is a drawing made by Nick Robles! I love his art and that was a personal drawing that he made and shared on his twitter.
I know it is fanon, you are not revealing anything knew to me. I have headcanons myself, I even have whole ass ideas of how Jason's story could have been told.
My biggest headcanons are that Jason's eyes changed to green after his was dipped in the Lazarus Pit (for absolutely no reason other than he would look handsome BUT they don't glow or anything of the sort). Another one is that Pre-New52 Jason and Dick could have been friends if they just tried AND my absolute favourite one is that Jason Todd is aromantic.
"The comics are great and should be read but don't lump every fan creators work together and make it one thing. Fanon isn't unified and it disagrees on every aspect you brought up."
Maybe we have come across different things but some fanon creators do mix up everything BUT once again, I don't say that fanon concepts are bad what I say is bad is treating fanon as canon to the point where people thing that fanon IS canon. People fight other people on comics' facts with fanon facts all the time. I don't know how long you have been in this fandom but when I came in the biggest fact about Jason Todd (not fanon Jason) was that he hated Dick Grayson because he had been the absolute worst brother to him AND that Dick had thrown poor baby Jason into Arkham with Joker just a cell away.
None of that was real. Now, it is the overuse of the Lazarus Pit, or better said the use of the Lazarus Pit as a motivator or actual thing that made Jason make the decisions he made back in the "Under the Red Hood" days. It is not about eye colour, or scars or whatever. It is about convincing people that Jason's autonomy was never his and that his actions were never his.
They were his! And that's what made his character unique, you take that away and you don't have Jason Todd/Red Hood, you just have someone else in the Bat lore...
I don't NEED to find "fan creators", I have my own headcanons that I have talked about here and I agree with some headcanons too BUT that's beyond the point because the problem doesn't lay with the headcanons that are treated as such, the problem lays with the part of fandom (if you will) that completely disregards Jason Todd the comic character and builds up this whole new lore to fanon Jason Todd that absolutely dominates the tag. The Jason Todd tag is fanon Jason Todd. It has been for the longest time.
Also, my fan interpretation of Jason isn't (wasn't) the point of this blog, this blog meant to be somewhere to find things about comics' Jason, the Jason Todd that I actually love (Pre-New52 Jason that is) and give my opinions on things that I want or I am asked about. I am not really here for fandom business anymore, at least not in the comics world, it is just a thing that I can barely enjoy really.
I guess that's all I have to say
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Talia being normal human aged is definitely best and I’m glad that nothing in continuity has messed with that, but making her hundreds of years old (only in fanon stuff) is really funny actually. Although, i would do it less if we talked about Nyssa more because it would be even funnier if we had a 400 year old Nyssa and her 35 year old sister (that she hates) and them being equally as old in the eyes of any kid. Not for “Talia must be old because Lazarus pit” reasons, but because “anything after 30 is aged” —Damian, after Nyssa tried to say she has the right to order Talia around because she’s older
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Unpopular Opinion #2
I hate the Jason’s autopsy scar headcanon, it doesn’t make sense and I just don’t like it lol
If he died, came back by Lazarus Pit/Or came back and got healed by the Lazarus Pit, he wouldn’t have scars/injuries anymore since he got healed.
I hope they don’t implement this in canon, DC has a track record of including fanon in the comics.
#my unpopular opinions#my thoughts#my opinions#comic thoughts#jason todd#red hood#dc#dc comics#batfamily
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I think it’s bs that so many fans can excuse Jason trying to kill Tim by inventing the fanon of “Jason was suffering from Lazarus Pit Madness! It’s not his fault! Jason was suffering and he’s very sorry and regrets it!” (Which is not true at all lol I love Jason BECAUSE he’s a bastard) But the actual 10 year old is the Devil?? Bitch no, they were BOTH hilarious and objectively funny events! Beat his ass (I love you Tim)
LITERALLY
Like objectively Damian’s motivation (he is 10 and had been raised in an environment that taught him trying to kill Tim for being in his way like that was an appropriate thing to do) is extremely understandable and should place him in a sympathetic light (he’s 10 he didn’t choose to be raised like that) vs how Jason’s was far more just ‘hey im angry im gonna take it out on this kid’ and not really sympathetic at all… so its just nuts the way people portray things.
In big ways I blame the New 52 for having Tim on page be so understanding with Jason while not affording that same understanding to Damian anywhere I’m aware of, which just… is insane when you look at how they ever interacted before the reboot! Damian and Tim didn’t get along there sure but Tim cared a hell of a lot more about Damian than Jason pre-reboot. Tim & Jason being close is an invention of Scott Lobdell and I hate it.
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