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thunderboltfire · 5 months

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Sera could be an example of how to make a terrible disservice to a character

An essay, by me.

I tend to be really cautious when the general public doesn’t like a video game character. Sometimes it’s just a specific aspect of them that tends to make people hate them - sometimes it’s even an unfortunate line, or a character doesn’t truly fit the setting, and even if they have very interesting, hidden side not many people get to see it. And sometimes just people jump on a bandwagon and hate for its own sake. I generally try to give characters a fair chance to get to know them.

That being said, I don’t really like Sera. I went through the full friendship route and throughout the majority of it, I felt that something’s off. It probably wasn’t the fact that her dialect wasn’t always well translated - she always seemed to stand out from the background, but not in the best way. I wondered what’s wrong exactly - she has some endearing qualities, she likes to have fun, she can pack a punch when needed. It bugged me for a long time, but finally, after thinking it through, I think I’ve got it.

The problem is twofold: one, her characterisation is inconsequential - and two, she doesn’t seem to fit the tone and overarching themes of DA:I.

Why do I think Sera was written in a way that doesn’t make her fit well into DA:I?

Well, what do we know about Sera?

She’s a great archer, she is skilled at guerilla warfare (especially urban guerilla warfare, if the Red Jennies’ general area of operation suggests anything), she’s an agent of a powerful (albeit decentralised) organisation, she’s a Robin Hood-esqe rogue and she’s all about having fun. That’s unfortunately where the problem in her characterisation begins. Sera sees the injustice and opposes it in many instances, but what she expresses as her main motive to joining the Inquistion is for the life to get back to what it was before the crisis, which may seem selfish on her part. She is usually acting rather consistently as a rebel to the established power dynamics, but she seems to know that she - or the Inquisitor, for the matter - doesn’t have the power to overthrow the current state of things. She craves change, but on her own terms. Her apparent conservatism (wanting for everything to be back to normal) is in fact the fear of the unknown more than the actual fear of change, but the execution of her character makes it look like she’s a walking contradiction. Her very personal sense of right and wrong, imbalanced by the unusual situation she’s found herself in, makes it pretty hard to predict her reactions. Her quick judgement, which undoubtedly was an asset for a Red Jenny put her at a disadvantage in a situation she doesn’t understand, and make her look completely unpredictable.

DA:I was often described as a game about politics, and the political themes seem to be more prevalent than in DA2, or even DA:O. Very often we hear that we have to secure the influence in a certain region, we have to negotiate, politically we have to be everyone’s best friend and hold everyone at a knifepoint - often in the same time. We have to get involved in the Game, whether we like it or not. Sera fits into it very weirdly, or rather, doesn’t fit in at all - put into a situation where you and the members of your inner circle have to maintain cold blood and consider the consequences, she’ll act in accordance to her own principles - that is, overthrow the board, or outright refuse to play by the rules. She’s got a heart in the right place, but logically speaking, she’d work way better as an agent, than as a member of an Inner Circle, where almost everyone knows and respects the stakes. Wherever You’d need to sow chaos and undermine the existing authority, You’d send Sera in and she’d do what she does best; instead, if You take her with You on any quest important for the main plot, she’ll be understandably dissatisfied, because while the Inquisition’s goals align with her own, its methods don’t.

That’s especially frustrating, because her rebellious attitude isn’t in itself a flaw. You could just put her in Kirkwall and she’d do great - in a cast of intense characters who drive the story and are for the better or worse trapped in a terrible city, a street smart archer who's pulling the strings behind the scenes to help the poor would be an instant favourite. Hawke’s crew is a walking trouble with law and authority already, they already have a pirate queen and an important figure in the local *cough cough* Merchant Guild onboard, and I’d love to see Sera’s point of view on the situation. I feel that practically any installment of Dragon Age would be a better playground for a character like her except DA:I. I would even argue that if her and Sebastian switched places, both characters would benefit from it. In Kirkwall, place with rampant social stratification, Sera would definitely have a lot to do - her personal history and her difficult relationship with her identity as an elf could be explored in a more complex way. Instead in the Inquisition, Sebastian’s arc would allow the Inquisitor to get deeper into the meanders of Freemarcher politics. That’s also not to say that there ISN’T a way to fit a rebellious rogue into a politics-heavy, high-stakes narration. Thronebreaker does it amazingly well, making Gascon a fan favourite and a left hand of main character who does the job brilliantly. The difference is that despite being a comic relief at times, his personality traits align with what could make him a respected leader of a bandit group in the first place. He is always prepared, he always has a backup plan, he knows how to negotiate and threaten. He can be selfish, ruthless and cruel - but at the same time, he knows how to gain and maintain common people’s support and he will react if he thinks the main character is going against their interest. He will always do things his way, he can be an exhausting opponent or a formidable ally.

What could Sera’s intended role in the Inquisition be, either plot-wise or narration-wise?

Speaking from the plot point of view, she’s a high ranking agent of a widespread secret organisation - it’s implied she has access to a lot of intelligence and she has quite a bit of favours to call, if she needs to. This makes her a perfectly reasonable asset for an Inquisition. However, there’s two problems here: one, her characterisation as an impulsive, trigger happy chaotic neutral rogue doesn’t fit someone who would work at the high levels of a secret organisation. And second, her being a Red Jenny seems terribly underutilised. Outside of a personal quest and a few errands at the War Table she doesn’t feel like someone with actual influence in the world - for sure not more than Varric, and he plays his influence down on purpose.

Narration-wise the important angle of Sera’s presence in the Inquisition could be being a voice of a common person, a representation of common folk’s pent-up anger over suffered injustice. She might be a character reminding the Inquisitor who they are really fighting for. Except that her treatment in-game makes this sort of narration ridicoulous, because young and inexperienced, she’s constantly dismissed and her claims seem to be more of a personal angle than an actual representation of wider norms.

The majority of people in-game also isn’t shown as valuing her input - the Inquisitor can dismiss her anytime, she’s considered a questionable ally at best by the advisors, she’s repeatedly described as an unpredictable wildcard in-and out-of game. Her supposed influence as a Red Jenny is almost never discussed or agknowledged. She seems out of her depth, and she isn’t easily persuaded. She seems to be a paragon of self-determination, but she makes no effort to understand those different from her (e.g. the Dalish inquisitor, the mages, or Cole). Her judgement is rarely the Okham’s razor you’d expect it to be if her role was to provide a sort of an “outsider’s perspective” to the issues You face.

It’s not to say that her characterisation doesn’t make sense - she seems like a believable portrayal of what does it mean to be a young person in a world full of injustice, where crisis never ends. But in context, she both seems like a person who’s notably difficult to cooperate with, and a character which is weirdly static in comparison to the others. Her arc is supposed to be about overcoming the consequences of lies she’s been told when she was young, but at the end of it her worldview, particularly her approach to elves - those from alienage or Dalish - doesn’t change at all. It seems to me that she has a lot of unresolved issues and for sure there is a lot of opportunity for character development in there, but it. isn’t. utilised. It isn’t only limited to Sera - in the Inquisition there’s more characters who don’t really change in the course of the game, but she’s maybe the most glaring example because her relatively young age and new experiences should make for a pretty dynamic character. In this way, the writers not only made disservice to her by the choosing to include her in a heavily political plot, but also did her a disservice because she seems disengaged from the player’s influence - she can applaud our choices or be upset with them, and she’s an occasional comic relief, but the interaction with the player doesn’t influence her otherwise.

#DA:I #Dragon Age: Inquisition #Sera #Sera critical #BioWare critical #(don't interpret it as a hate towards the character - I'm far from it)#But I criticise her characterisation and the way she is inserted into the story so beware #I have many beefs with DA:I and the more I dissect it the more issues I find #long post

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scoobydoodean · 14 days

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I was wondering if you, as a Dean fan have opinions about the different writers? Mostly because I see a lot of Dean fans really strongly dislike Dabb for some reason and I don’t really understand why. I’ve never seen a concrete explanation beyond “he can’t write Dean/doesn’t understand Dean/actively hates Dean” but with no examples as to what he does that’s so bad. And I see this in every shipping lane. I don’t have a strong opinion about him as a writer one way or the other.

I'm exploring this more as I rewatch the show (currently on season 6) so I'll speak mainly from that perspective on my most recent thoughts. I am not a big fan of Dabb or Loflin, but have tried to be fair about things so far when talking through each episode. I am a fan of "Alpha and Omega"—it's my favorite finale (it's also... a finale for a season Carver started as showrunner? So I don't know what the implications are there as far as storyboarding). Also points for having demon Dean stab a guy through in 10.02.

I'll focus on the negatives you asked about in this post, but in the links you'll find me moving the narrative this way and that toward much more charitable readings... I think. (I do have a tag #dabb disk horse which you can either peruse or blacklist at your leisure). What I can tell you is something almost always strikes me as a off about Dabb/Loflin episodes so far in this rewatch in terms of character work.

Dabb/Loflin's first ever episode was 4.06 "Yellow Fever". In the aftermath, Kripke felt the need to release a definitive interpretation of their episode to the public, stating, "Dean is not a dick... he's a hero." The whole episode toyed with, to an extent, the idea that all the victims of the MotW were bullies. You can take this other directions—for example, queer meta, or meta about Sam as the real bully. However, the story a lot of fandom latched onto was that "Dean is a jerk and deserves to be humiliated and punished for that" which obviously didn't make Dean fans watching live in season 4 happy—and this theme of Jerk!Dean continues into their next episode, "After School Special", where they once again parallel Dean with a bully literally nicknamed "Dirk the Jerk" by Sam, and throw what I think is transparent shade at Kripke's issued statement from before the Christmas break (post here)... or maybe they mean to throw shade at the Dean fans who got angry. In this episode, they also make illusions to Dean wanting to have sex with barely legal high school cheerleaders, which also did not ingratiate them to Deanfans at the time. I said on my last rewatch, "In After School Special, Dean seems more unlike himself than any episode ever in the history of Supernatural up to this point" (post explaining that here). I carry similar sentiments about portions of 5.06 "I Believe The Children Are Our Future". Yes—I am aware of performing Dean meta. I just... feel like they try a little too hard. It feels hamfisted—desperate. To the point it doesn't feel like Dean anymore sometimes. In 5.06, they also have Dean (guy who is generally very protective of kids) suggest to Jesse that he'd be good to have in a fight???? I can see how they got there, but again—it just feels... off. The last episode I rewatched that they authored, 6.04 "Weekend At Bobby's", also leaves a bad taste in my mouth—not in what it's trying to do with Bobby or what it's trying to do on a meta level—but once again, with dialogue from Dean that just makes me think "he would not fucking say that" (post here). I think looking at all of these, you can probably see deangirl ire toward Dabb has a long history. It's been around as long as he's been around, whether he deserves as much ire as he gets or not.

I haven't circled back yet on this rewatch, but Dabb and Loflin also penned season 7's "The Girl Next Door"... do I need to say anything specific? Maybe I'll just link my entire #amy tag. What narrative did they want you to get from that episode? Who the fuck knows. And that's often the problem:

When you watch various episodes I've mentioned, you can work around to a meta that tells you something different than you might at first think the page conveys—something hidden and maybe contradictory. The thing is... you could also... not do that? And that wouldn't be so bad, except that sometimes the two narratives you can most easily grasp completely contradict each other. "After School Special" can be an episode that points to Sam's envy of Dean and John deep down and foreshadows Sam becoming a bully, but on a meta level, it also just as easily says Sam becoming a bully is somehow Dean's fault, and Sam is some poor captive baby. Dean is a creep and a bully and a cheater but we should all coddle him because he saw his mom die when he was a child and he's sooo sad. "Yellow Fever" can be a queer meta story and might also foreshadow approaching Bully!Sam in 4.14, but it also very much does call Dean a jerk (should we take that seriously? should we not?) and implies Dean should be punished for the outcome of three decades of reality-bending torture. Even if it's a queer meta underneath... it's just as easily one about how closeted men should be humiliated for cowardice or how being closeted turns you into an asshole.

Jumping way ahead, I have to mention 15.10 "The Hero's Journey" just because. Yes, it is full of jokes and Garth goodness, but also tries to sell you the story that nothing about Sam and Dean is real, to a degree that feels like you are being flipped the bird for ever watching this show. And again—you can make meta that it's all a ruse! But is it? Or is Dabb actually just telling you to go fuck yourself? Like he totally wasn't when, after the SPN finale when fans were Not Happy™️, he tweeted a sign reading, "Don't feed the baboons"? Yet again—we play into the motif of the "hero" who isn't a hero at all but some pathetic loser who deserves to be publicly humiliated, bookended with Dabb's opening episode in his opening season. I'm not saying that's what it is on purpose—but I am saying you can make these arguments easily, and that leaves me consistently annoyed with Dabb for being fucking sloppy and leaving me to deal with some of the most insufferable meta imaginable that carries little support outside of episodes written by Dabb or the Dabb/Loflin writing team.... Yes—I am in fact saying that Dabb and Loflin's hamfisted episodes (regardless of their intentions) are largely responsible for some of the most insufferable, loathesome fandom metas about Sam and Dean's relationship around.

Look at 5.16 "Dark Side Of The Moon", and 7.08 "Time for A Wedding!" and 8.14 "Trial and Error", 11.17 "Red Meat", and 15.20 "Carry On". Along with 4.13, while they might or might not say something deeper or contradictory on a meta level, on a surface level, every single one of these episodes sows the narrative that Dean is needy and clingy and needs Sam more than Sam needs him—something I intensely disagree with for a multitude of reasons... but I'll just link this. Many of these episodes also follow a surface level narrative of "normal life obsessed Sam" (and here I'll link my entire #sam the hunter tag and #in which sam is not a helpless little waif with his hands cast over his eyes being carried along by the tides of the immutable sea). When I look at this episode list, I also don't find it at all difficult to believe that Dabb wanted Dean to die in the finale. There is nothing at all shocking about that. And yes—you can argue he's pointing to the opposite—that this fate should be subverted and that's what makes 15.20 the dark ending, but I think you can just as easily argue that yes it's a dark ending and yes Dabb has always dreamed of this ending. A "tragic" ending where Dean dies and Sam goes on to have a white picket fence... while also leaving you little hints along the way that maybe it's all a big ruse because how could he not? He never has to explain anything. Someone else will pick up the story and make it make sense. He's already fucked off to piss all over fans of Resident Evil.

That said, when I mention what I feel is off character work, I mainly mention Dabb/Loflin episodes from my recent rewatch, which suffer from the two of them being newer to the series (coming onto the writing team in season 4) and also leave questions about whether, perhaps, they had conflicting ideas about characterization. Was Dabb the one penning these lines? Was it Loflin? Was it both? Did they trade out who took the lead? I didn't really say anything negative about "Sam, Interrupted" or "Jump the Shark"... (though "Sam, Interrupted" also calls Dean "codependent") who wrote those? Is it possible that the messiness of the meta comes down to two writers at war? I have to imagine though, that they got along, or else they wouldn't have written together for four fucking years. If they didn't get along...? My mind always comes back to their first solo episodes, right after splitting up in season 8. Dabb's first solo episode is "Hunteri Heroici"—the only episode to lend any perspective to season 8 Sam's reasons for abandoning everyone—paralleling him checking out with Fred's catatonia, which Sam has to save Fred from. It is the only episode that lends Sam sympathy in the early part of the season. He follows it up with "Trial and Error"—where Sam promises to save Dean from suicidal thoughts. Loflin's first solo episode is what I would regard as the most scathing solo episode commentary on Sam in the entire series—"Citizen Fang". Then he writes again right after Dabb's "Trial and Error"—penning "Remember The Titans" where Sam tells Dean to get over the promise Sam so passionately made in Dabb's episode and face reality.

This is why we're exploring this rewatch.

DISCLAIMER: Now I just devolve into bitching because I'm writing at 3AM. Proceed at your own risk.

It seems like these days, everyone demands an explanation for disliking Dabb (something about some sort of destiel battle... I don't know what that flamewar is and I don't give a damn tbqh.) I guess I've just been wondering what's actually so great about him. Because it feels like people have overcorrected to basically acting like he's god's greatest gift to mankind. People point to how meta his episodes can be, but I think other writers easily best him on that front on multiple occasions (particularly enjoyed by me so far on this rewatch: 3.10 "Dream A Little Dream Of Me", 4.04 "Monster Movie", 4.12 "Criss Angel Is A Douchebag"), and without leaving their meaning so up in the air that you don't even know what the hell they were actually trying to tell you because there are two different completely incongruous narratives you could just as justifiably claim were the intended one. Some people may find that duality praise-worthy. I don't. I find it sloppy—and when I add in mediocre character work, I just land on the side of him being, at the very best, mid.

Add him in as showrunner, you have... at least two of my least favorite seasons (13 and 15). Add that he's a one-trick pony in terms of the Sam and Dean conflicts mentioned above that he continuously rehashes rather than come up with anything new or fresh, and the same conflicts between Dean and Cas being played out until they both die (shut UP I'm not talking about canon destiel as the alternative—I am literally just asking for more diverse conflicts). I can't say I understand what I''m supposed to find so impressive.

(Before anyone so much as breathes this near me, Berens also sucks and I am going to tear off your nose hairs if you start bringing him up as if disliking Dabb for some reason means wearing rose colored glasses about Berens. Berens can eat a whole cactus raw over "The Trap" alone.)

#writer disk horse #dabb disk horse #mail

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the-music-maniac · 7 months

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I haven't watched that much of One Piece yet, so feel free to disagree with me on this analysis, but there's one thing about people's general interpretation of Sanji as a character that drives me a little nuts. And I'm saying this because even though I'm not very far along, I got spoiled for his backstory (because I refused to stop reading fanfiction even though when I first started I was like, on episode 3).

So before you continue, there are spoilers for Sanji's past.

I think people tend to ignore that the differences between Sanji's demeanor towards men vs towards women likely partially stem from severe trauma. I don't believe his actions are entirely intrinsic, its not like he was born acting like this - nor is it an unchanging immutable fact of his character, despite what a lot of people seem to believe.

And for some context on what prompted this - I'm a sanzo/zosan shipper, so I tend to crawl through the depths of the internet looking for fun little videos and fanarts, and one consistent protest I see with this ship is "Sanji DESPISES men and WORSHIPS women, there's literally no way he could EVER be attracted to men or want to date a man he HATES them."

Which bothers me outside of any arguments about Sanji's sexuality or even about any ships - which I will get to in a second - because that interpretation of Sanji assumes his actions are just there for no reason. Sanji hates men, therefore he hates all men with no exceptions, and he will always hate men. Sanji loves all women, therefore he will always worship every single woman he meets. I dunno, I think it's just a very surface level understanding of who he is, and relies on setting a rule for no reason and just sticking to it, as if it's just a mere quirk of his character with no backing to it.

Sanji's first interaction with any people, was in the form of his biological family, as is the case with most of us. Specifically, his father and brothers, who abused him and didn't even treat him like a person, and his mother and sister, who were the only people that treated him with kindness and saw his humanity. Tbh, he reminds me of the way women who have experienced trauma from men act - a general dislike/disdain and distrust for them (for good reason). And I don't doubt Sanji's overall elevation of women was only hammered home by the fact that his first ever father figure - arguably the first man who's treated him with kindness - teaching him the lesson to always respect women. His very illogical need to never fight women probably partially comes from the events in his life, and because it's not just a two dimensional arbitrary rule established for his character - there can be exceptions and growth.

We already know this, because despite Sanji's general disdain of men as a whole, he is capable of caring/loving men that he personally knows. He loves Zeff, and he loves his nakama - some of whom are MEN. Like, it's right there??? In the same way a woman who has experienced violence at the hands of a man probably still has family and friends or even a significant other that they love and care about that are men.

Like if you're using his demeanor towards the different genders as an "aha got you" argument for why Sanji couldn't possibly be queer, its not as strong of an argument as you think it is.

And if we're operating under the assumption that Sanji partially acts like this because of trauma, it brings up quite a few interesting arguments about his sexuality and potential romantic partners.

Which segways into sanzo/zosan, since admittedly I got into this entire debacle because I was looking into fanart (non-shippers feel free to click away now if you wish, I get that not everyone likes the ship, which is valid).

I don't think Sanji's actions means he couldn't be bisexual. Cause I'm bisexual, and you know what would make me very very keen to ignore all my attraction to one specific gender? If I had multiple instances of that gender hurt me severely. In fact I'm not so certain I don't experience that, because while I haven't had anything super bad happen to me, I hear about things in the news, about friends and family who have been harmed, interacted with men who have talked down to me, and I definitely went through a phase in my younger years where i just refused to consider men as a possibility for a romantic partner, because I was just so so angry. And I'm not saying Sanji doesn't like women in truth, because he absolutely does. He's both attracted to them and likes them. But that doesn't eliminate the possibility that he might also be attracted to men, or other non-binary genders. In fact the more he doth protest, and puts on a show when he sees a pretty woman, the more I'm sure he's in denial. Internalized homophobia can also be a bitch. Contrary to making me think Sanji is absolutely straight, the way he acts in the show actually puts me the opposite way.

I've heard Sanji also has an interesting relationship with gender and may be genderqueer but I don't know as many details about that yet, so I'll skip it for now. But regardless, I look at Sanji and go "I don't think this is a traditionally cishet character."

Of course, this is by far not the only interpretation you can have of Sanji. It could be that he's traumatized and also heterosexual. That's absolutely fine. But my overall point here is that I don't think what we see in canon negates the possibility that Sanji can be queer.

As to why I like Zosan in relation to this:

1. First, a relatively minor thing, I enjoy the sheer amount of bickering/fighting. People hold that up as a reason to not like the ship and I'm like, my dude that's one of the only reasons why I'm here. My love language is annoying the people you love and occasionally having homoerotic battles. duh.

2. Zoro is one of the aforementioned men that Sanji cares about, one of the exceptions to his "men are horrible" thing. Like they argue and fight a lot, sure, but you're not convincing me that they don't love each other. In whatever capacity - platonic or romantic - is up to your interpretation. Sanji loves all of his nakama, that's not really something I see as up for debate.

3. I honestly believe that until Sanji gets a less extreme viewpoint of the different genders - he won't be able to be in a healthy romantic relationship with a woman. For one thing, I know Sanji has self worth issues for days. For another thing, his hero worship for women as a whole - his refusal to fight women, even when they're actively trying to harm him - I don't see that translating well to a relationship. Moreover, I can see it being exhausting for the woman he ends up with, to always be treated like she's made of glass or agreed with, regardless of what she says.

Essentially, he wouldn't really treat that relationship as a partnership between equals, and I think when that happens, you run the risk of the individuals hurting each other, even on accident. Of course, we can also see this as a facet of his character with exceptions and possibility for personal growth. Maybe if he gets with a girl he'll grow and learn and still end up in a good relationship. You could also just interpret his demeanor as over the top flirting that he'll reign back in for an actual serious relationship. Sky's the limit when it comes to fandom interpretations.

But because of this, regardless, I just don't see any potential between the female characters I've met and Sanji. What I do see potential in, is Zoro. Here is actually a character Sanji not only trusts to watch his back, is on equal footing with, but is also unafraid to speak his mind and fight with. He doesn't walk on eggshells or worship the ground Zoro walks on, he has no qualms about defending himself if Zoro crosses a line. That is what a relationship can be built on.

4. Zoro has a contrasting way of interacting with women that I find super interesting. He comes off as the kind of character that doesn't actually care about the gender of the person he's fighting or interacting with - he cares about their ability. Which kinda explains his reactions when he hears Kuina's thoughts about being a girl - and I think Tashigi as well if I'm remembering correctly. There could be a clash of beliefs there that might be quite interesting. I know Zoro and Sanji do fight about how they talk to women, but I meant like something not just played off for laughs. Maybe there is something like that later in the show, who knows, I'm still early on.

5. Again the entire reason why I like enemies to lovers is the need for personal growth. I heard someone say that Zoro would be fine with being in love with a boy if it wasn't Sanji, and Sanji would be fine with being in love with Zoro if he wasn't a boy, and man do I think that's accurate. And here's the crux of the matter - in order for them to get together, they need to get over their hang-ups. Sanji needs to unpack the ten million tons of trauma he keeps repressed under his curly noggin, and Zoro needs to figure out why Sanji rubs him the wrong way. That shit is INTERESTING. People forget that the reason why this trope is so popular is BECAUSE it's a fixer upper - there's work to do. Nothing is perfect. It may even be a little toxic. That's the appeal.

Anyways this is getting TOO LONG. Thanks for reading!

#sanji blackleg; trauma; and his relationship to men and women: an essay #one piece #sanji blackleg #analysis #roronoa zoro #sanzo #zosan #sanji x zoro #zoro x sanji #bisexual sanji blackleg #potentially genderqueer sanji blackleg #zoro and sanji's differing interactions with women are just quite interesting #i headcanon zoro as gay cause that man has never shown interest in a woman from what I've seen so far

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raven-at-the-writing-desk · 2 months

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Hey Raven, hope your doing well. I was rewatching book 5 and something struck me. Crowly stills does his thing to get yuu/mc to host the NRC tribe at Ramshackle. But compare to previous chapters hes seems a little nicer, i guess? He offering renovations and upgrades ( a positive), instead of just threatening to cut yuu's food budget or something (a negative).

Where im going with this is, do you think Crowley may have felt a tiny tinge for his (in) action in book 4? Or atleast, realized he actually screwed up. He did give Yuu in case of an emergency.... and promptly ignored it (or just turned it off) when he went on break. He likely had to have heard what happened over the break...an likely saw his missed calls and put 2 and 2 together. Sure he may not feel bad enough to apologize (at least openly), but he does seem to make himself scarce early in b5. That could just be him being, well, the headmage. Maybe he's just not sure how to deal with MC or how they'd react to seeing him? So instead of threatening Yuu, he offers them something instead? Idk, maybe im reaching. Crowley relationship with Yuu is complicated. I do like to believe he has some empathy or regret (or maybe he just has more respect for yuu by b5?) After everything up to that point

Like i said, i may be reaching here. Wanted to get your input. Sorry for the long ask. Have a good one :)

In many fandom depictions of Crowley, he often serves as Yuu's guardian who is incompetent but well-meaning. I'm also guilty of doing this, Crowley is considered my OC's father figure (even if my OC isn't a Yuu). That's how we choose to engage with the characters and the world that we love! However, I don't believe that Crowley has that sort of tenderness for Yuu in canon, whether at the start or as their relationship develops over the course of the main story. Now, that's not to say that I think Crowley is cold or hateful towards Yuu. Far from it! He does care for them, but in the same way that a teacher might care about nurturing their students and preparing them for the world beyond graduation. Crowley demonstrates a similar attitude towards other NRC students, with one very clear example being in his Raven Jacket vignettes. In those stories, he likens his students to apple trees that he raises and nurtures, hoping that one day they might bear fruit. He does not particularly grant Yuu special treatment unless it's a scenario where he wants them to do a favor for him. (Though here I would also argue he does the same for other students when he wants them to resolve an issue in his place, which happens frequently in event stories; in Fairy Gala, he warns the boys they'll be held back if classes cannot proceed due to the wacky weather. In Ghost Marriage, Crowley shames the boys for not expressing interest in rescuing Idia, etc.)

I also want to set the record straight regarding how exactly Crowley gets Yuu to comply with his requests. Reviewing all avaliable books in the main story, Crowley rarely outright threatens Yuu if they refuse to help him:

Prologue — Crowley does not initially ask anything of Yuu, but he does provide them a temporary home and food until they can sort something out. During Yuu's stay, they are meant to do handiwork to earn their keep. However, Crowley tries to expel them after their involvement in breaking what is considered a precious chandelier. In this case, his anger is somewhat justified but it's still the one major example of Crowley leveraging something to force Yuu to act in a way that he desires. The thing is, it's revealed in chapter 19 that Crowley did not believe Yuu could acquire the magestone he asked for and was all set to finalize the expulsion papers. So really, he wasn't serious at all in giving Yuu a chance to redeem themselves and was going to expel Yuu anyway (until they happened to prove their "usefulness"). Whether this counts as an example of Crowley "threatening" Yuu, then, is up to individual interpretation.

Book 1 — Crowley makes no specific request to Yuu. He shows up late in the book and suggests to the frustrated Adeuce that they fight Riddle to claim his seat as dorm leader, but does not tell Yuu to do anything in this situation. Recall that it was Ace that marched up to Ramshackle's front door and demanded that he be allowed to stay overnight; Crowley had no part in that.

Book 2 — In 2-7, Crowley asks Yuu to investigate the strange string of accidents that has befallen the students set to play in the upcoming inter-dorm magift/spelldrive tournament. There is a part where Crowley says he "never promised to cover living expenses". You, as Yuu, have the option to ask him "Is that a threat...?" to which Crowley never properly responds. Interpret that how you wish. He then offers Grim and Yuu a chance to participate in said tournament if they succeed, seeing as they lacked the 7 players needed to form a team. Crowley even says he will find 5 other players to fill in their missing team seats for them.

Book 3 — Here in 3-6, Crowley never actually threatens to cut off food. Instead, he is trying to earn pity from Yuu by guilt tripping them and emphasizing that he, the headmaster, is so busy with his tasks (like finding Yuu a way home) and will provide them with the funds they need regardless because he is so very kind. He's trying to tug at their heartstrings by pointing out the things he selflessly does for them, so they feel obligated to do something for him in return. Once Yuu agrees to help, he lavishes them with praise and says it is "expected" of someone he personally chose.

But!! I want to add that in the Episode of Octavinelle manga, this same scene is depicted as Crowley threatening to cut their food budget. I'm not sure if this is just a different interpretation (since Yuuta seems to prepare more food than is usually implied in the game; this would explain why their food costs go up significantly) or if Crowley truly was also threatening to cut the budget in the game.

Book 4 — Crowley makes a reasonable request in 4-2; he asks Yuu and Grim to tend to the fire fairies over winter break since it's a task no one else will be present to handle. In exchange, he says he will give them a banquet of tasty foods (which is not an empty promise; in 4-39, the Ramshackle Ghosts tell Yuu and Grim that the headmaster has left them with a ton of food as thanks.

Book 5 — Crowley appears in 5-21 asking that Yuu allow the NRC Tribe to stay at Ramshackle for their month-long training camp. He explains that Vil and Rook are willing to give up their share of the prize money if Yuu agrees to these terms. It is then that Crowley adds that he will help with renovation too, most likely to sweeten the deal with his word.

Book 6 — Crowley does not ask anything of Yuu. He does, however, call in STYX in 6-2 because he becomes concerned about the threat that Grim poses after consuming multiple crystallized blots. After Grim is taken, Crowley instructs Yuu in 6-4 to wait until Grim has recovered and been evaluated by a third party to speak with him again.

Book 7 — Crowley makes no specific requests to Yuu.

You can see in almost all instances that Crowley uses a variety of tactics to get his students to do what he wants them to. He bribes, shames/guilts them, points out very real consequences if the problem at hand is not resolved, and, yes, occasionally makes what can be interpreted as a vague threat. Despite this, the fact remains that he was always nice, not just post-book 4 (in fact, Crowley was also nice during book 4). I don't see the circumstances as "anything before or during book 4 is him being negative and threatening to punish Yuu and anything after book 4 is him being kind and positive to Yuu". In most cases with Yuu, he is offering them something they would want. His go-to strategy isn't threats, it tends to be the promise of a reward.

I wouldn't tie any of Crowley's actions to feeling a sense of remorse or guilt on his own part. While it's true we don't really get to see inside of his head, from what we see of him... this man is utterly shameless. He's willing to resort to emotional manipulation to convince literal children to solve problems that he, the powerful mage and adult, should be dealing with. What's more, he praises himself for Yuu's competence and willingness to step up. That's him placing a lot of faith in his students, and I don't think he feels any guilt in doing this. Why else would he send them into dangerous situations over and over again? He must, to some extent, believe they can already handle themselves just fine, otherwise he's creating tons of legal liabilities for himself by purposefully throwing children of tons of affluent families into the line of fire. Besides, he's a highly skilled mage himself--if any true, TRUE danger were to befall them, surely he could save the day himself. My thought is that he has sort of a "tough love" approach where he tosses his students into the fires and sees how they get out of it in one piece, but it's just presented in a "devil-may-care" way because of his lackadaisical attitude.

Regarding book 4, I personally see Crowley giving his cell phone number as just a means to provide reassurance to Grim and Yuu, since they (especially Grim) are protesting about him seemingly leaving on vacation. It's an empty gesture so he can have his getaway without much of a fuss; I totally believe that Crowley did not ever intend to answer his phone. When he returns in book 5, he's already asking another favor of Yuu, so I get the sense he isn't really bothered by what happened. I would even say that Crowley still has several major appearances in book 5, not that he has made himself scarcer. He appears to ask the favor, appears again to evaluate their performance, and then a third time at the cultural festival to speak with the headmaster of RSA. Crowley gets plenty of screen time here, much more then in books 6 and 7. If he truly felt bad or actively wanted to avoid Yuu, he could easily just tell other students (ie Vil) or even school staff (ghosts, teachers, etc.) to relay the deal for him.

Again, I want to be clear: THIS IS NOT CROWLEY BASHING. The only thing I am expressing in this post is that while I do love this bird-brained goober and think he cares for his students, I don't believe it's done in the conventional sense you're thinking of. Crowley can be selfish and callous and throw his students into danger, and that's okay! Sometimes we want to love a useless man who's trying his best, even if his best is pretty lousy/j

Whew, that was a lot of brain dumping! I hope I properly responded to all your thoughts and that you found this read semi-entertaining~

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irithnova · 2 months

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About my Siberia ocs...

So I think it's important to balance their characterisation in a way in which they are distinctive characters with interesting personalities and backstories but also acknowledges the challenges they face without making their entire character essentially "They're sad all the time because of Russia" or "Stop talking about their struggles under Russia I don't like politics."

I think both are problematic however I find the latter to be far more distasteful because well. This is a nation personification OC we're talking about and not only that, they're essentially nations within a nation (Russia) by virtue of colonisation and so are minority groups within the larger nation. Hell - because of displacement and immigration from European Russia , a lot of these groups are minorities within their own lands. It's a special case when dealing with minority groups/occupied people personifications and it's particularly egregious when someone wants to forgo any kind of acknowledgement of these power imbalances yet still insists that their interpretation is sensitive.

I've seen some pretty bad OCs of Siberian groups which are the product of the creator going "I hate politics stop talking about politics!" or, an almost direct quote, "I hate when people shove politics into historical hetalia." Which... Is an interesting take to say the least considering how history feeds into politics and vice versa. Historical hetalia is a beast in an of itself and is one of the only hetalia communities/bubbles in which "no politics" will get you laughed out the door from what I've seen considering *gestures to my previous statement*. If you've ever taken a history course - you'll know how much history and politics are intertwined.

This is how you get interps which consists of the likes of "Russia was wandering around the empty lands of Siberia" which not only blatantly disregards the brutality of the Russian colonisation of Siberia but also promotes the concept of "Terra Nullius" or "Virgin Land". I'm quoting myself from an even bigger post I have in store which focuses on anti Mongolian sentiment however stereotypes about Mongolians and Siberian groups often overlap because of their placement in Northern Asia, hence why it applies to both,

"In addition, to hone in on Mongolia being an "untouched, pristine" land - this is also a common trope that is launched towards traditionally nomadic "unsettled groups” (such as Siberian and Native American groups). The concept of "Terra Nullius", a Latin word meaning "nobody's land". It completely disregards the presence and rights of the people who inhabit the land and has been historically used to justify the colonisation and displacement of such groups - their land belonged to "nobody" so it was essentially up for grabs...It divorces the people from their landscape and paves the way for dangerous misconceptions and justifications to blossom.

Here is an example of "Terra Nullius" in action in a Russian propaganda poster, encouraging Russians to move to Kazakhstan."

Or interps such as "[Siberian group] has forgiven Russia for everything he did/most things he did and is in love with him" which implies that the mistreatment of the Siberian groups is merely something in the past when it is in fact ongoing. The mistreatment of Siberian groups such as the Sakha, Buryats, Chukchi and Tuvans has been all the more highlighted in their disproportionate mobilisation in the invasion of Ukraine - and the heaps of scapegoating that was subsequently shovelled onto them.

That's not to say ethnic minority soldiers in the Russian army shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes - however that and the fact that they themselves are victims of Russian imperialism can both exist as true statements. The scapegoating is so bad that even Pope Francis joined in, blaming the brunt of the war crimes committed onto "Non Russians" such as Buryats and Chechens, as they do not come from "Russian culture."

Back to my main point... I think the resistance to do research on and publicly acknowledge how these groups live under Russia and what kind of struggles they face in some kind of bid to "not paint them as victims!!11" is sorely misinformed and ignorant. Because well. They are victims.

Not in the sense that you should portray them as sad, pitiful, weak little meow meows but in the sense that yes they are living under Russian occupation and are an occupied people who's been subjected to centuries of Russification, and so compared to making an OC of Mongolia who is an independent nation state at least I think there is far less room to be hauling around "leave politics out of historical hetalia!" "don't talk to me about politics!" "stop victimising them!!" because then it leads to tone deaf interpretations such as "They've forgiven Russia for everything and is in love with him ♥️💖", "Russia is actually [Siberia groups] father", "Here is my singular Siberia OC who represents ALL Siberian groups and by the way Russia is their father" (yes these are all real interpretations I've seen and I've made a separate really strongly worded post ranting about it) and worse. I mean I've literally seen an "aph Siberia oc" who was Russia and France's love child. Terra Nullius executed Hetalia-style.

I don't really think I need to elaborate on why a singular Siberia OC is problematic - Siberia is filled with a myriad of different groups who speak different languages, have different origins and ways of lives and practices, different religions, who've experienced eras of peace and conflict with each other, etc and yeah to shove them all into one personification is an erasure of the sheer diversity that is in Siberia. I definitely don't need to elaborate on why making Russia a father to any of these groups is problematic, to say very the least.

On the point of "don't only portray them in a victimising lense", I think making Siberian groups all depressed all the time is also a Russia-centric perspective. Of course it's ignorant at best to not acknowledge their shared suffering because of Russia however when this point and this point alone is central to their character I believe in a way that it strips them of their autonomy and ability to feel things and do things outside of Russia's gaze. There is absolutely a lot of joy to be had despite their current situation, perhaps even in spite of their current situation. It's ok to give them odd quirks and put them in funny situations as well as acknowledge that they are an occupied people and approach that territory carefully when need be.

For example, I made my Buryatia bubbly and loud but made my Tuva a bit more deadpan because I see them as a pair who often associate with each other and I think the dynamic is funny. I also made Buryatia an overbearing "husband" to Soyot who is perpetually tired™ from all the se- .

I made a crack dynamic between Sakha, Evenkia and Dolgan where Evenkia was Sakha's teacher at first but then became a deadbeat dad leaving Sakha to primarily raise Dolgan, thus Dolgan takes after Sakha and is uh lawyermaxxing👍. Yukaghir is the little old lady of the group who is often forgetful but very nifty and Chukotka acts like a big sister to people which Koryak (who I see as her brother) always finds annoying and they often bicker. Ket is on the slightly edgy side and is extremely particular about his routines and Nganasan terrifies Nenet because he eats reindeer whereas Nenet doesn't.

All of these quirks/ more lighthearted interpretations and "they are an occupied people under Russia" can coexist. One should not be thrown out for the sake of the other.

I think there's also problem - though I've seen this far less, in making Siberia ocs purely as a middle finger at Russia. As in, you made the OC because you wanted to say loud and proud FUCK RUSSIA which well yeah, fuck Russia, but I highly doubt your interest in this group lies outside of wanting to #own the Russians which is dehumanising in and of itself. At least pretend to care about the history and culture instead of using an entire group of people to make a virtue-signally oc purely to try and upset some Russians.

Anyways yeah Siberia 👍

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obnoxiousselfdiagnosedneurosis · 5 months

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Alright, Uchiha Clan oppression longpost

This is the unavoidable, and often central, topic people tend to surround their Naruto politics takes on, and is as a result a big, ugly discourse-generator. It's also a subject I'm definitely always thinking about when it comes to Naruto as a noted Sasuke stan, and my thoughts on it have changed gradually over the years. I'm making this post to share what my current interpretation on "how and why the Uchiha Clan were oppressed" is.

Before I do that though, notice on what this post is not:

I'm not writing a "discourse ender", a take meant to be spread around with the claim of being the only correct interpretation of events. This is a post I wrote to share the exact way I rotate an aspect of the manga in my mind, and to convince people that looking at it from this angle is interesting. Basically: it's not that serious, I think about this because it's fun.

This isn't a "character-bashing" post or whatever either, so like if you agree with what you read here, I suppose I can't stop you from using those infamous "anti-[X]" tags, it's just that making a post that warrants them has never been my intention.

Along with that, I do want to address the by now very well established fact that Naruto the series is Not Very Good, and has glaring inconsistencies in its writing. The Uchiha Clan drama is definitely not exempt from this, and in its case the failures in Kishimoto's writing usually show in inconsistent power-scaling, in which we're made to accept weird leaps in logic (how does a 13 year old get rid of what we're told is one of the most powerful and feared clans internationally?) That being said, those particular inconsistencies are kind of irrelevant to this particular post, and don't much change the fact that the Uchiha Clan Massacre did happen. I'll be taking it as a given that if you're reading this, you're accepting to suspend your disbelief of those events on a technical level, and are more interested in how I make sense of it all more on the diegetic social/political level.

With that settled, we can get to the important part now:

The most popular take (as far as I've personally seen) on the events that led to the Uchiha Clan's downfall is the one that takes Madara at his word: the Senju have been oppressing the Uchiha since Konoha's conception, and Tobirama becoming the 2nd Hokage gave him the opportunity to put the Uchiha in a more socially disadvantaged position (police force), gradually earning them the villagers' ire, which was the catalyst for their eventual genocide.

This interpretation works if the end goal of your analysis is to say "Tobirama really fucking sucks". I don't think this conclusion is an unreasonable one, since Tobirama's hostility towards the Uchiha is great enough that he can callously tell a 16 year old genocide survivor that if his clan "self-destructed for the sake of the village, so be it". However, to me, the circumstances surrounding the Uchiha Clan are much wider-encompassing and more fascinating than narrowing their fate to a single man in fan meta written to convince you to hate him, so it goes without saying that I don't think "this is all Tobirama's fault" is a very interesting lens to look at this from.

I also don't buy the argument that making the Uchiha cops was (originally) to their detriment. We'll get back to that in a bit. I suppose this depends on how you look at Tobirama's character, but I think that when he said he made the police force as a sign of trust and to give the clan something useful to do in Konoha, he was being genuine. Arguing the opposite requires you to either believe that a law enforcement order could ever be in an oppressed position by default, or that Tobirama created a fundamentally useless new institution because he just hated the Uchiha that much. I think the former is a weird thing to argue if you're trying to be Leftist about all this, and the latter is a very ungenerous interpretation of Tobirama's character in which his own "racism"/pettiness overshadows his more utilitarian instincts to ensure that the village his brother built was safe and functioning. Obviously you could interpret that, but that leads us back to the "everything is Tobirama's fault" take, that I already mentioned I find lame as hell.

So then, how do I think the Uchiha Clan was oppressed? Because I think they indisputably were, or I wouldn't be making this post. Well, I think it was less "The Senju/Tobirama have always wanted to lord over them and wanted them dead", and more: they became gradually more socially disadvantaged during the era of Hidden Villages, with the consecutive world wars creating a souring global opinion on kekkei genkai clans.

(I'm gonna base my arguments primarily on what we see happen in the manga, and I'll add in some information from the fanbooks/databooks that weren't contradicted by what we see happen in Kishimoto's canon)

Let's start with what we know, definitely, that canon tells us:

Kekkei genkai clans are discriminated against to a very high extent, leading to things such as their mass slaughter (eg, the Uchiha Clan obviously, but also kekkei genkai clans like Haku's clan in the Land of Mist), and a vulnerability which puts them in positions where they're likelier to be targeted and kidnapped (eg, Hinata, but also Orochimaru having a whole criminal entreprise built on kidnapping and experimenting on people possessing kekkei genkai).

The trend for their discrimination is in being scapegoated. When Haku talks about the genocides in the Land of Mist (I refuse to call it the Land of Water sorry it sounds so stupid), this is how he describes them:

(chapter 59)

basically, it's not shinobi as a whole who are badly seen even though all sorts of them were likely participating in those wars: it's kekkei genkai clans in particular. Compare this to the Uchiha Clan being blamed for the Nine Tails attack (I mean one of them certainly was responsible, but was entirely unaffiliated with the rest of the clan) and being roped off to the edge of the village as a result.

Kekkei genkai clans are also frequently described by characters as being a bit "wilder" and more violent than usual shinobi. Tobirama calling the Uchiha "cursed", Kushina describing the Uzumaki as being "a bit savage", and Kakashi introducing us to the concept of kekkei genkai initially with these fun visuals:

(chapter 25)

The thing that's interesting about all this is the context in which it exists: the shinobi villages aren't technically "nations", but I think it would be accurate to liken their possessiveness of their secrets and paranoia regarding outside intrusion + conception of themselves as unified cultural entities + incredibly harsh treatment of dissidents (becoming a rogue is essentially a death sentence) to nationalism. There's an intentse "in-group vs out-group" feeling here.

Not to mention that canonically that shinobi have always been tools of imperialism for greater powers. While Hashirama's initial dream was to put an end to that, it eventually became corrupted; there was already discontent regarding land and resource allocations during his tenure as Hokage, and while we have no idea why the 1st War started, we know that by the time we're on the 2nd one, Konoha had become a tool for the Land of Fire's imperialist expansion (and was apparently was expanding its influence as a military village, too).

(chapter 436)

Basically, the "in-group vs out-group" conception that had once solely been clan-centric widened, and became this new concept of shinobi villages.

This is important because nationalistic sentiment inevitably rises during war; as a result, there's be a sharper eye for who'd turn traitor, who wasn't supporting the military effort, who would endanger their nation/village, etc. With this, there would be greater suspicion directed towards kekkei genkai clans, because they're more "genetically predisposed" to being unpredictable, because they would appear more loyal to their own than to the whole of the village, because they were the likeliest to turn traitor, and so on.

This would be a gradual process going on since the 1st War, but I believe that the 2nd War was where this kickstarted into becoming so much worse, because that one saw the destruction of Uzushio. It was a village composed entirely of a single clan, didn't bend to any of the big 5, and the Uzumaki were "savage" and had abilities that were greatly feared. It would be interesting to consider the idea that their associations with Konoha would have done them more harm than good here, too, given that Konoha was the Big Bad in the 2nd War and an alliance with them would not have been viewed positively.

It's thinking about all this in context, where nationalism was at its peak, where there's an idea that genetic chakra abilities impair swathes of people from being regular functioning shinobi like everyone else, is how we can imagine the Uchiha were discriminated against. They had another disadvantage to them as well, given that one of the first deadly attacks committed on Konoha was done by one of them. If we want to go back to the police force argument, it would be interesting to consider the idea that while it had been a good position for them at first, the utility and influence of the institution gradually eroded over time, and by the time the era where the massacre happened came along it became nearly meaningless since most of its original functions had been assigned elsewhere; as the kekkei genkai clan discrimination rose, the Uchiha also fell victim to it and their influence within the village significantly reduced out of fear of them.

The surveillance and the sequestering of the Uchiha Clan came after two important events; the first being the 3rd Great Shinobi War, and the second being the Nine Tails' attack on Konoha which happened barely a year post-armistice. Konoha was barely recovering from global armed conflict when half of it was destroyed in that attack; tensions are high, the Hokage is dead, and so the village saw an incredibly convenient scapegoat in the Uchiha clan.

So... yeah, that's how I see it! I find this a more fun interpretation than just pointing fingers at individual characters, because it allows me to consider the wider worldbuilding of the Naruto world, and also doesn't assume the Uchiha's position was especially unique and the end-be-all of all the problems with Naruto's politics. It's certainly important, but it's part of a greater network of problems too!

#send post #The ground is soft and I'm ready to dig #Uchiha #this is somehow both longer and shorter than I expected it to be #Anyways feel free to discuss and ask for clarification on some points if they seem confusing!

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bl-danmei-planet · 2 months

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Jinx: Jaekyung's POV

I'd like to analyze something that Jinx hasn't had (much) in the story yet: Jaekyung's POV.

The story is told from Dan's perspective, so naturally the reader has more sympathy towards Dan. Clearly Dan is the one who suffers in the story. Jaekyung's impulsive nature, anger, and high sex drive are something that are still a bit mystery.

Many readers are waiting for the explanation for his toxic behavior. Many readers are looking for him to "turn to a green flag". Readers love "tame the beast" type of story in romance. Mingwa has said this to be a classic story, so it will be possible it takes this route. But so far there is not character development with 50+ chapters in the story.

In Mingwa's earlier work BJ Alex the toxic top Jiwon also goes through flasbacks that explain his shitty behavior and through separation arch he realizes his feelings. At the end of the story he is a changed man. Some readers speculate that Jinx will take the same route because there are some similarities with the stories. However I'm doubtful of that.

Will there be a tragic backstory? In the last chapters it was revealed that his opponent Junmin has met him before and said to him:

This put Jaekyung's under a lot of stress. I believe this exhange clearly shows that Jaekyung's has had a troubled childhood. To me it's clear that his avoidance of emotion and cold nature is a result of some kind of trauma.

Will there be a regret arch or separation arch? I feel that now (ch. 51) we are going through some kind of introspection. Jaekyung's processing the fact that Dan might have betrayed him. In my interpretation it is miracle to Jaekyung why Dan hasn't left him before and has tried avoiding that by making him financially dependent on him. Their very first encounter starts as a transaction. Jaekyung's past lovers have been paid to have sex with him (as far as we know). He clearly has issues with intimacy. I feel that it is a miracle to Jaekyung that Dan has stayed with him. Jaekyung has broken his boundaries and played with him however he wants and Dan has submitted to him. I think one part of Jaekyung expects Dan to betray him at one point. Him ignoring Dan's feelings and doing what he wants separates himself from human connection. It might be one type of self harm to treat people shitty and be seemingly okay that they don't like you.

I believe Jaekyung's backstory will be tied to how he feels like he has to be the dominant one, the winner, the Emperor. I wish the backstory would give Jaekyung some character depth because usually very dominant and independent people have gone through something abusive and they have been forced to be in a submissive role. I talked previously how this work has BDSM undertones and how Jae's dominance plays a big part of his character. I would say he already has character depth because we have already seen him under a lot of stress and him contemplating why he is so obsessed with Dan.

Jaekyung is hard to read, he has a poker face. He simply does not show much emotion except for anger and lust. He is an emotionally detached man. This is what I find interesting about Jinx and Jae's character. How does such a cold character show love? Or even realize he's in love? I don't think we're ever going to see him as a super loving character because he has repressed so much of himself. He shows his emotions thorugh action. And with Dan the action so far in the story is possessiveness.

So many of the so called Jinx fans just straight up hate Jaekyung. I'm pretty sure everyone's minds will turn once we get his backstory. Jinx is a slowburn and people just don't seem to be patient enough for it and show their frustration in the fandom. I'm dissapointed in this because I really like Jaekyung's character. I like cold characters that are a bit of a mystery. Jaekyung portrays himself as the dominant one, but that is only the part of himself he shows to other people (and the reader). I feel that many readers would enjoy the story more if the could sympathize more with Jaekyung. But some people need to be reminded that this story is not for everyone and Jaekyung's not the typical perfect loving top many readers would like to have for themselves.

#mingwa #boy's love #yaoi #jinx #jinx manhwa

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morgana96 · 1 year

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To try to give a genuine answer to an apparently genuine question:

I personally dislike estinien and aymeric both.

Estinien is an unreliable ally who has shown himself willing to shun (post HW MSQ), disdain (HW MSQ), or be violent towards his allies (ARR DRG queats), and Aymeric is a proponent of the forced adoption of the WoL into an Ishgardian house, and manipulative in a way that makes him a very good politician but not a very good person.

I dislike the ship between them because I feel that they would both be bad for each other, for these reasons.

I'm not trying to hate on you, but you seemed to be genuinely asking a question so I'm trying to genuinely give an answer.

Keep brightening my dash <3

I debated on actually replying to this because what I have to say might come off as rude. But I'm afraid this interpretation of both Aymeric and Estinien feels EXTREMELY innaccurate. I'm not sure how far you are in the story because you only mention up to Heavensward, so I don't want to spoil anything post-Heavensward. But even then, these claims simply make no sense.

In my opinion, calling Estinien "unreliable" and "disdainful" to his allies is wild. He can be distant and harshly blunt sometimes, but he very clearly cares about other people. He is open about his respect for people like WoL, Alberic, and Aymeric, and his familial fondness for Alphinaud. That is NOT disdain. If anything, his aloofness is due to the trauma of losing his entire family and village, making it difficult for him to form new connections out of fear of losing them too. While his all consuming desire for revenge was unhealthy and misguided, it was fueled not by disdain for others, but rather extreme grief for those he loved so dearly and lost so violently.

During the DRG quests, finding out the truth about Alberic and Ferndale was DEVASTATING for Estinien. He openly admits that Alberic is a father figure to him, and learning that his mentor was hiding the full truth was shellshocking, making him more susceptible to Nidhogg's influence and manipulation. And it was that manipulation that led up to the questline's final confrontation.

As for Aymeric, since when has he ever "manipulated" WoL? He's probably one of the most honest characters in the game. If you're talking about his appearances in ARR, you're far from the only player who initially got "secret villain" vibes from him. But most players eventually realized that was never his intention. He's not lying to you or trying to trick you into doing anything during those initial meetings. If anything, he's being brutally honest about how Ishgardian bureaucracy works, regardless of his personal opinions on the matter.

Also, I have no clue where you got the idea that WoL was "forcibly adopted" into House Fortemps to further Aymeric's political agenda, because that is not even remotely close to what happened. Haurchefant is the one who petitioned for them to get into Ishgard because he wanted to protect them after the events in U'ldah. Count Edmont took WoL, Alphinaud, and Tataru in because Haurchefant vouched for them, and because they had literally nowhere else to go. Pretending it was some political scheme by Aymeric and not Haurchefant's faith and admiration for WoL that got them into House Fortemps is a major disservice to both characters and a critical misinterpretation of the plot.

I couldn't disagree more with the idea that Aymeric and Estinien are somehow "bad for each other". Like I said in my original post, they have been friends for a decade, and it says a lot that Estinien opened up to Aymeric despite the former's reluctance to form bonds with others. Aymeric considers Estinien his "dearest friend", while Estinien sees Aymeric as Ishgard's "best hope" and literally threatens to take down the Holy See himself if they threaten harm against him. Whether that's romantic or platonic love is up to interpretation. But it's very obvious that love is there.

So yeah, I'm sorry, but I can't humor this reasoning. To me, these claims unfortunately give off the same frustrating energy as players who insist their WoL hates the Scions because they are "manipulating" their WoL and "using them as a weapon", when it is glaringly obvious that the Scions do not view WoL that way at all. At most, the only Scion to behave even remotely like this is Alphinaud during A Realm Reborn (and the ARR finale and Heavensward literally show him growing out of that and realizing how arrogant and inconsiderate he'd been.)

I swear I'm not trying to be mean. But I really think you should replay some parts of the game over, because based on what you've said here, I think you're severely misunderstanding many aspects of these characters as individuals.

#Final Fantasy XIV #FFXIV #Estinien Varlineau #Aymeric de Borel #Estimeric #honestly i'm not bothered by the dislike for the ship #i'm more concerned with the strangely out of character interpretations going on here

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shysublimecoffee · 5 months

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I don't harbor any hatred towards Chloe; instead, I feel a sense of pity for the way her story unfolded and the diminished regard she ultimately received. Personally, I never perceived her as a serious threat. Initially, I acknowledged her annoyance to some and the seemingly irredeemable nature she projected as a bully, a sentiment that used to persist when I was just 12 years old but not anymore.

Now, as a 21-year-old, it's challenging for me to invest much concern in the character, spanning across both the fifth season and earlier ones. The show appears to emphasize a forced and exaggerated approach and has a bias vendetta against her so clearly which diminishes its overall impact. I'm genuinely surprised at the intensity of reactions her actions provoke in others. Like in Season 5 when Marinette has to seek Chloe permission in Derision is stupid because Chloe for all of her dumb and provoke antics wouldn't go that far and is a cheap tacktick to rule your emotions into getting you to hate her even more the narrative tries to surround and paints her as nothing more than an entitled individual who prioritizes self-interest and her inflated ego.

While I understand that the series may not delve too deeply into character development, there's still some nuance present in their personality. However, reducing Chloe to a one-dimensional portrayal like the show and some anti's do purposely tries to do seems like a disservice or, at the very least, a simplistic and flat interpretation of her character.

Chloe's character has been consistently challenging to take seriously as a bully, even as far back as Season 1, mainly because she frequently finds herself defeated in the end. Rather than evoking fear, she tends to elicit annoyance, relying on her father, the Mayor, for protection. Many of her antics come across as cartoonish, and I've come to accept her as the stereotypical rich mean girl bully whose schemes inevitably backfire. It's noteworthy that, despite her perceived intimidation, Marinette surprisingly stands up to her, with the entire class often joining forces to mock her. I understand why some perceive her as a bully, but I've always thought of her, especially in the earlier seasons, more as a rival, akin to the dynamic between Clover and Mandy from Totally Spies.

A significant portion of Chloe's motivations and insecurities can be traced back to the emotional neglect and abandonment she experienced from her mother. Now, with her father also distancing himself, she appears to be left entirely on her own. I theorize that, to some extent, she might unconsciously emulate her absent mother's emotions and actions, a curious phenomenon given her mother's absence during her formative years. It seems as though, with his wife gone, Chloe's father inadvertently steered his daughter toward adopting her mother's mannerisms as some sort of afterimage, creating a peculiar resemblance.

It's intriguing to note that Ladybug plays a crucial role in shaping Chloe's behavior, given that Ladybug is not only her idol but also someone she believed could instigate positive change. However, when Ladybug rejects her and excludes her from the team, it becomes a harsh betrayal. Besides her mother, Ladybug significantly influenced Chloe, and regardless of perspective, Chloe thought she had found her place, only to be abandoned once again, mirroring the abandonment by her mother now toss away by her hero. Chloe allowed herself to be vulnerable with her hero, only to receive mere crumbs in return.

I was taken aback when, in the midst of Derision, Marinette unequivocally placed the blame on Chloe with a resounding "It's all Chloe's fault." I found it amusing considering Chloe wasn't the sole accomplice. Even in a different dimension in the Shadybug special, she remains the catalyst and, surprisingly, retains her antagonistic and mean-spirited demeanor towards Marinette. So, in this flipped universe, it appears my girl Chloe still can't catch a break.

To be frank, we perceive Gabriel as somewhat foolish, but the show intends to depict him as a manipulator, particularly towards his victims. The focus on Chloe, the resident bully, becomes particularly unwarranted and cruel in this narrative. It's not just Gabriel; even his assistant and Kagami's mom, if my memory serves me correctly (feel free to correct me), engage in manipulating and exploiting Chloe's emotions. Lila, too, plays a role in bringing her down.

It's surprising that the show doesn't delve deeper into how the company she surrounds herself with significantly influences and contributes to her downfall. It gives the impression that she's solely responsible, disregarding various factors at play. This is particularly evident in the episode where she becomes mayor; the narrative seems to conveniently absolve them of any responsibility once she served her purpose.

I'm not saying she did nothing wrong she certainly did enough times that the show often call her out but it's like I compare her and Marinette and you see how easy one get off compared to the other. Ladybug actions towards her partner and her lying and the gaslighting she does enough in the end of season 5 will be waved away. In Empeheral she betrayed her own partner and it is an issue even if her partner is unaware yet time and time again the fandom and show gives her grace and compassion and how she's only 14 years old she doesn't know.... how many fuck-ups does she gotta make before she gets to be hold accountable. I know damn well the show will wave away and put a rose-filtered cap in how she endorsed the villain and tricked her boyfriend but she didn't mean it because she cares for Adrikins. So, why doesn't the show extend some understanding to Chloe? Chloe seems to be consistently portrayed as the scapegoat, while Ladybug assumes the role of the golden child. It's a straightforward observation.

Fuck Felix is worser and he's afforded more understanding and grace than Chloe is which is hilarious.

The reason I appreciate Chloe is straightforward. She wasn't the typical protagonist's sidekick; instead, she was mean, rude, and unapologetically pursued her desires. When the chance to become a hero presented itself, she seized it without waiting to be chosen. While her motivations may be deemed selfish and her actions not always aligned with the greater good, I find it refreshing. In a show where many characters tend to be subservient to the main character, Chloe stands out by taking charge and charting her own path. Why wouldn't I like her best lol?

Whether Chloe has the potential to undergo change is not the primary concern for me; what matters more is having a coherent direction for her character. There could be various trajectories for her, evolving into either a hero or a villain, and more skilled writers could skillfully outline a path for her character development. Perhaps facing rejection and isolation drives her further into darkness, or she finds redemption by discovering a new source of hope. Unfortunately, instead of exploring these nuanced aspects of her character, the writers chose to shoehorn and disregard the potential depth in her narrative.

#miraculous ladybug #chloe bourgeois

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llawlieta · 7 months

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What’s your most unpopular DN opinion? (It can be about canon, fanon the fandom)

This is a hard to answer question for me because I don't know that I have many unpopular opinions, or any at all?! So I'm just going to ramble a little bit at you. I hope this is the quality content you were looking for.

I am FAR from confident that my own characterization of Light and L is right, but I sometimes feel like my view of them is an unpopular one because I see different sides of fandom taking certain traits and pulling in totally different directions - Light is either dramatic with a hair-trigger temperament and ready for Violence OR he is very soft and fluffy. (Or, he is either constantly openly and shamelessly putting women down or actually a #feminist.) Same thing with L. L is very soft and gentle and full of angsty feelings, or (and I think the following is a view that some people have adopted as a rejection to the Uwu L ™ characterization that was king in the early days of the fandom, sjsksjd) he is a confident asshole with almost no consideration towards other people beyond what is useful to him to be able to solve a case.

But then of course I know this is a bit like saying nothing because all fandoms will do this to their blorbos, and all characters are more complex than you'd think from a cursory search through their Tumblr tag. I was discussing this with a beloved friend and she illuminated me by mentioning that fandom... just loves Drama and Heightened Feelings... People consume the source material and want more Feels out of it (especially media like Death Note, I'd imagine, which really doesn't spend more time than necessary dwelling on anyone's feelings) and so they take... Light having a yelling fit and make it a very prominent trait of his personality. Or L having a soft moment and fill him with soft feelings that are coming out all the time. Which is a reasonable instinct to have! even though I think the interesting part of those moments in canon is precisely the fact that they are extraordinary in some way.

So I AM saying nothing and this does happen in every fandom, and contrary to what that cursory search through any fandom tag would tell you, a lot of people certainly treat the characters with subtlety and pay careful attention to all of their dimensions. I mean, evidently, most people do it much better than I could ever hope to do!! (In my defense I have to say that if I stress myself out with writing Light and L properly in-character I will drive myself insane, so not doing it is Self Care for me). But, ah! hopefully this is still some sort of answer, anon!

The L thing bothers me more, because he is my beloved boy and because I think people insist a bit too much on the view of him as confident asshole who doesn't give a fuck. Cleverer people than me have discussed this, particularly in the Lawlight server in which I am, but L does in fact Give Some Fucks. I'm noticing it more now that I'm rereading the manga! A lot of soft little L moments are making me sort of understand why people back in the early fandom days really ran with that Soft Uwu L interpretation haha. It's not remotely accurate to reduce him to those traits! but it's not accurate either to reduce him to the opposite ones?

And I feel like the same phenomenon happens with Lawlight, My Beloved Ship. Sometimes it feels like, if people don't portray them as a very soft and fluffy couple, they can portray them as a couple that would be so toxic and unhealthy that they couldn't have a normal, loving relationship without mind games and manipulation always running through the undercurrent of it. Idk we all know these boys are crazy insane but I don't think they'd be quite THAT toxic!!

Rereading the manga has made me have the realization once again that (I think) L and Light honestly just fit together very well, and don't hate each other with nearly as much venom and intensity as one might think, and there's a lot of common interests and genuine mutual appreciation and fun in their relationship. Particularly in a no notebook AU where there'd be no need for 70% of their mind games of course lol, but it's also there just, like, canonically.

↑ they discuss the news and buy groceries together and read different books silently on the couch actually.

#if you read all this: [anime L voice] I'll give you a strawberry.#choosing a Yotsuba arc mangacap wasn't intentional in the sense that I am saying that #any of what I just said is only appliable to an L who is paired with a Yotsuba Light - not at all!!#I just had this edit of this mangacap in my folder and I wanted to put a picture at the end of these blocks of text kjsksjsks #Death Note #L #Lawlight #ask #anon #lau.txt #would anyone even think of it that way... I don't know. but I love worrying about things no one has ever had a single thought about ever.

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deeply-unserious-fellow · 3 months

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In the mood to give my weird, probably biased WOY hot take rn so here it goes: Wander and Hater would not last in a romantic relationship.

Like, I do GET the appeal of them as a pairing? It's enemies to lovers! Everybody loves a good enemies to lovers. Plus, WOY really LOVES doing that thing where they throw a LOT of romance coding into non-romantic relationships(Deathglare gets a lot of this too lmao), and Wander is just like. Weirdly flirty? With Hater especially but also just in general. Like I get the impression that that man fucks. He and Jeff have probably had a one-night stand. But I don't think their personalities are compatible for a long-term romantic relationship.

First of all: they're both really impulsive and flighty. Which I guess could work in a relationship if both partners were completely insync with eachother, but Wander and Hater. Aren't. They are not. Plus, putting two people with short attention spans together with nobody to keep them in check is a RECIPE for disaster. There's also Hater's temper, which I don't think any amount of character development would be able to take out completely, and Wander's penchant for frustrating. Everybody. He is a very frustrating person to be around. And while I don't think a long-term romantic SkeletonDance would turn ABUSIVE, like that is ABSOLUTELY taking it too far, I do think it would be VERY unstable. They have the EXACT wrong traits in common, and the traits they DON'T have in common just straight up don't mesh well. I could see them getting together impulsively, because there is some chemistry there, but eventually the relationship would deteriorate from a combination of opposing values and goals, mutual short attention spans, and Wander getting on Hater's nerves. They'd break up, and depending on the circumstances it could end up VERY MESSY. They work better, in the long term, as friends then as romantic partners.

SO, now to address my biases, because there are a few, and I think it's important to acknowledge any potential flaws in your perspective while making an argument. First one being: I just prefer other Hater ships? Like yall know me, I'm a Deathglare girlie til the end lmfao. They're LITERALLY my OTP, you can see the influence the pairing has had on me in pretty much every other ship I've obsessed over since. But like... I'm also a multishipper, and Deathglare isn't exempt from that. I don't have any alternate pairings for Peepers(because he doesn't really interact w/ anybody outside of the main 4 and Dom for some reason and I don't like him w/ any of them except Hater), but I DO have a pretty big one for Hater, and that's Skullhunter(Hater x Ripov). Idk I just think they're kinda cute! And uh. Also a rarepair. Like there's NO content for them omfg- probably because Ripov only had one episode and there are already much more popular Hater pairings... bUT I'm getting off topic, what does this have to do with my potential anti-Skeletondance bias? Well, both of my Hater ships are VASTLY overshadowed by Skeletondance. Like I think Skeletondance is the MAIN pairing in the WOY fandom, and both of my prefered Hater ships kinda get left in the dust, at least in terms of content volume. I believe that at least part of what leads people to hate on popular things in a desire to have what THEY like be mainstream so it's easier to find a community, and I am not exempt from that. I generally like to believe I'm neutral on Skeletondance overall, but there might be some subconcious jelousy directed towards people who prefer Skeletondance that makes me think the pairing just wouldn't work. Also, I headcannon Wander as aromantic, which definitely influences my interpretation of their relationship akrngosmfmekkfoemfke

So uh, yeah. That's why I don't think Skeletondance would work long term, plus a little dissection of things that might've skewed my perspective a bit! Idk why I made this tbh, I might be going insane-

#wander over yonder #wander #woy wander #wander woy #lord hater #not gonna tag this as ship cuzzzzzzz yeah #gal overanalyzes random shit

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night-unfurls-its-splendour · 11 months

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What do you think of Sarah Brightman in POTO? She gets so much hate from the "phans" but I love her as Christine. She looks so victorian, classy, proper and innocent. When I got into the show (which I regret) I couldn't stop watching her with MC and Steve. I love her voice, it's so unique as Gillian Lynne described — like a dew dropping. Also Michael Crawford and her were similar in age to Erik and Christine. I think she wasn't more sympathetic and "into" him because that's how she was instructed to act, Hal Prince was very clear about Christine loving Raoul though she felt sorry for Erik. And Steve Barton was such a perfect Raoul. My all time favorite pair is JOJ & Gina as well as JOJ & Katie Hall. I also adore Hugh Panaro & Samantha Hill.

Honestly I would love to give an opinion, but I can't because I have only ever seen one Brightman performance and it was quite degraded, so her visual performance was very difficult to analyze.

What I will say is that I didn't know this about Hal Prince (keep in mind, I've only been in the Phandom for about eight months, so I'm still learning a lot of the production's history.) And I find that interesting, given the fact that Lloyd Webber himself has always dropped hints (and in more recent years, been more open about) his own very pro e/c feelings. I think in the end, everyone in the production has their own perspective, and those combinations of attitudes bubble and collide on stage with different outcomes every time. We have to keep in mind that every element of the main trio shifts the chemistry and even with repeats of the exact same trio, sometimes the vibe you get from Christine can be very different show-to-show. I've seen Crawford/Kristien/Barton in three separate boots and Kristien's performance has had varying degrees of enthusiasm with Erik in every one. In one she was more naïve and timid, in another she was blatantly horny.

I've seen Gina Beck absolutely terrified with Ramin Karimloo and gently spooked with David Shannon. I've seen Rachel Barrell mortified with John Owen Jones and sweetly sympathetic with Earl Carpenter (though her Christine always seems to be Lukewarm for Erik no matter what).

I can also say, having worked with some theatre directors (and of course, every director is different in how far they view their directorial power reaching) but the ones I've talked to have said "when we're in rehearsal it's my job to show you what to do. Once that curtain comes up, my job is done: it's in your hands, you know what to do."

Of course there's a limit to defying direction, but an actors job is not just to stand there and do what they're told. They have to do it in the way that will feel most organic to them and to the people watching. Theatre direction is different than movie direction. The director can't stop the show and give the actors notes to make sure that everything goes just how they want it to. The actors have a lot of power to interpret their direction, and like I said, that interpretation can vary from show to show even when it's the exact same main cast.

So I'm sure Brightman had performances where she was more into Erik and ones where she was more into Raoul. But I don't know.

Now as for her voice, I'm going to be honest that yes it's unique and she's without a doubt a fantastic singer, I'm not a huge fan of her vocal quality. Her voice is very thick to my ears and it's just not my favourite. I don't hate it by any means, but it's just not my favourite.

As for the hate, idk. If she did have a lukewarm performance across the board, it is partially her fault, but as I've said, creating a role is a difficult thing. Other Christines have been able to look at her and form impressions, have ideas and come to conclusions that Brightman may not even have thought of at the time. It's a lot of work to build a character with nothing to go on except the book which only partially resembles the story you're acting out, so I'm disinclined to be very harsh towards her. But I think we as phans have a feeling that no matter how many Erik/Christine pairings we've seen where Christine definitely embraces her attraction to Erik and leaves only reluctantly at the end--pairings that vindicate the E/C stance a lot of us hold dear--theres a sense (and an irrational one, I think) that the original interpretations are the only ones that really matter. While that's understandable, I think it's a bit of a fallacy, because as I've said, shows like this grow over time. New interpretations add new layers and ideas occur to both actors and directors that they maybe want to approach things differently from now on. If they changed their perspectives, it must be for a reason. The first version is often flawed.

ALSO keep in mind that later Christine's, Raoul's and Phantom's have had the benefit of full-text translations of the book that weren't available to the original cast and crew. Post 1990 Christines had the benefit of knowing that, in the book, Christine practically admits to Raoul that, if Erik was handsome, she would certainly have fallen completely in love with him (and, with Erik being pretty darn sexy in the musical, that definitely shifts the perception of Christine as a character and how she would make her decisions in this musical timeline). Maybe this is a factor into why most of the 90's Christines I've seen really went in for an enthusiastic interpretation.

Who can really say?

Also yes, Hugh and Samantha slap.

She's one of my top 5 Christines.

#phantom of the opera #poto #poto musical #sarah brightman #hal prince #christine daae #the phantom of the opera

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transmascutena · 3 months

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Never got around telling you that I watched the transfeminism in utena essay and loved it!

Today I finally rewatched Adolescence and loved it as well, I think it's one of my favorite movies, it's visually stunning and so amazingly haunting/hypnotizing, felt like I was in a trance while watching it.

(and oh my god Anthy is my favorite character in anime of all time, I adore that she gets so much more dialogue and screen time in this, specially towards the end. Hearing her say the "Give me the power to revolutionize the world!" line made me tear up)

Just wondering your thoughts on it, or your favorite thing about it (?) Idk! If you have any rant about aou I'd love to read it

sure, i'll rant a bit about aou! this is mostly just my thoughts on various parts i like and dislike, not really any analysis.

i have mixed feelings on adolescence that change every time i watch it but mostly they're positive. i think my favorite thing about it is anthy. i love that we get to see her be more free and more forward. i love that it's her narrative, that we get to see what her and ohtori are like without akio (though still haunted by him.) i love the reading of the movie as a sequel, in that the show is about anthy escaping her abuse, while the movie is about the lingering trauma from it. i love the "we were together in killing the prince" line from utena at the end. i love that they're both free and together now. i also love the visuals of it, of course, it's a gorgeous movie. and i appreciate that we get to see utena and anthy in a much more explicitly romantic relationship, even though i do prefer the subtlety of the show by a lot. all their scenes together are very good, but i especially like the bedroom scene, the dance scene, and the drawing scene (i want to write some proper analysis of them sometime). i love the layers of metaphor and symbolism in every part of the movie, and that it feels even more abstract than the show. i love the car scene, it's silly and it's symbolic and it's emotionally impactful <3

on the other hand i think pretty much every part of the movie that isn't about anthy and utena is .. not very good in comparison (to the parts that are about them, and to the show.) which makes sense when you read the movie as anthy's narrative. of course she's not really focused on any of the other characters. saionji especially lacks literally all of his depth, which i think is just funny when thinking about it through that interpretation. uh, i hate the nanami cow scene which i've talked about before. i think it's unnecessary and uncomfortable and purposeless. i do however like that she doesn't appear in ohtori, because of the implication that she escaped. i appreciate touga's backstory reveal, though i don't really care for his role in the movie very much. it's never felt all that coherent to me, though i do understand what it's saying about the themes of the prince being dead. shiori has a weird antagonistic role that i don't know how to feel about. she's lacking a lot of her depth too, and i'm not sure i fully understand her motivations. or maybe i do and they're just not that interesting to me. hmm what else . akio is a far less interesting character than in the show also, but i think it works. he's not very intimidating, incredibly pathetic even, because anthy has already left/has already made the choice to leave him. also i like that he kills himself :)

i don't want to directly compare it to the show when talking about what i like about it, because obviously i like the show more. but i don't think the movie is trying to like.. compete with the show in terms of which you like better. because it isn't just a retelling of the same story. if it was, a 39 episode long tv series would always beat it in how developed its characters and themes are. which is why i think the movie works much much better when read as either a literal sequel to the show or as a continuation of its themes. it doesn't stand very well on its own in my opinion, aside from how pretty it is.

#adolescence of utena #asks #m

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mac-macarena · 3 months

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Who Got the Kids in the Divorce? Theme Songs

YouTube Playlist (all links below are to YT) Spotify Playlist (organized by character)

Monkey Fam

The Ballad of Smokin' Joe Rudeboy by Tom Cardy - While the story does not exactly line up with what happens in WGTKITD (obviously), it is hilariously very close, with Wukong being Smokin' Joe, his wife being Macaque, and his long lost daughter being Savage, of course. Some say many years ago, Before Joseph Rudeboy was Smokin' Joe, He had a wife, her name was Bo, Bo was with child in a happy home [...] Joseph Rudeboy was too slow, For a child that he'd never know, Joseph Rudeboy you're too slow, Burning inside Joseph died, But from the ash the man who rose was---Smokin' Joe [...] One day an outlaw came to town, "Come out here Smokin' Joe, You're just as well already dead," He wore a velvet cloak but Joe saw red [...] And as Joe fell, He beheld the outlaw's face, A young girl who'd seen it all, And grew up in a terrible place, Whose mother once told Joseph, To run and bring back help, A girl who thought her father, Had run out to save himself.

Here Before by Vashti Bunyan - This song is Wukong's view towards Rumble (Once I had a child, He was wilder than moonlight, He could do it all, Like he'd been here before), then Savage (Once I had a child, She was smiling like sunshine, She could see it all, Like she'd been here before), and, finally, MK (Then I had a child, Took his while like northern summer, And he knows it all, Like he's been here before), and how he lost the Eclipse Siblings and fears loosing MK too.

The Truth from 36 Questions - This is literally just a song about how many different views of truth there is to the tale of the Monkey Family---how each one of them views it differently, and how they chose to hide or distort the truth. Generally, I interpret the two singers as Rumble and Savage, speaking about each other and about their parents, and perhaps both of them are speaking to MK. And what’s true for you, Doesn’t have to be true forever, And sometimes the truth isn’t always, For the better, It’s something that we aspire to Or maybe, that’s something we say, Until it gets in the way [...] But the truth is, The truth doesn’t exist in, Black and white, And sometimes two sides, Can both be right [...] The truth is that you will never really know, The truth is that you will only think you know.

Too Far by ChaoticCanineCulture - This song can represent each member of the Monkey Family, as they all have moments where they "went too far, leaving scars." Generally, Wukong and Rumble are the more openly "guilty" parties and therefore fit the song more, but Macaque (especially Macaque) and Savage both hold a lot of guilt too. Looking inside my mind I see the truth, I was always the one who tormented you, This was my choice, my evil doing, 'Cause I died inside when you stop moving [...] There's no excuse for what I did to you.

Crazy Human Psycho Crush (mashup) by doodleoodle - The chaotic intertwining of multiple different stories/viewpoints fits the Monkey Fam perfectly. Oh, and I know, and I know, and I know that I've been acting so strange, But you should know that you're the one who made me this way, I'm a psycho just like you said I'd be [...] I feel like all of this has aged me, Right on the edge of twenty-two, You look like you've just seen a monster, Is that what I look like to you? [...] 'Cause I'm so sick of the drama and I hate to shout, But you drag it out of me [...] You can't love someone and just let go, And yeah, I know that I'm a little bit intense, right, But can you blame me when you keep me on the fence, like, (Three words, two hearts, one maybe Say something before I go crazy now)

Runs in the Family by Amanda Palmer - It runs in the family, what can I say? Mostly the speakers of the song would be Rumble and Savage equally. Mary, have mercy, Now look what I've done, But don't blame me because I can't help where I come from, And running is something that we've always done well and mostly I can't even tell what I'm running from, Run from their pity, from responsibility, Run from the country and run from the city, I can run from the law, I can run from myself, I can run for my life, I can run into debt, I can run from it all, I can run 'till I'm gone, I can run for the office, and run for the cause, I can run using every last ounce of energy, I cannot, I cannot, I cannot run from my family, They're hiding inside me, corpses on ice, Come in if you'd like but just don't tell my family, They'd never forgive me, they say that I'm crazy, But they would say anything if it would, Shut me up.

Shadowpeach

Peach by The Front Bottoms - Self-explanatory. You are my peach, you are my plum, You are my earth, you are my sun [...] Once I sink my teeth, your skin's not so tough, I'll leave a tiny cut, there'll be a lot of blood, But once you wipe it up, You will feel better about our entire situation.

No Children by The Mountain Goats - Self-explanatory. I am drowning, There is no sign of land, You are coming down with me, Hand in unlovable hand, And I hope you die, I hope we both die.

First Burn from Hamilton - Macaque's PoV. The implied cheating can be replaced instead with Wukong listening to Azure over Macaque's warnings about the battle. Heaven forbid someone whisper, "He's part of some scheme," Your enemy whispers, So you have to scream, I know about whispers [...] If you thought you were mine (mine, mine), Don't.

Red Like Roses Part II by Jeff Williams - Macaque (red): I wasn't dreaming when they told me you were gone, I was wide awake and feeling that they had to be wrong, How could you leave me when you swore that you would stay? Now I'm stuck inside a nightmare every single effing day [...] I know you didn't plan this, You tried to do what's right, But in the middle of this madness, I'm the one (I'm the one) you left to win this fight.

Wukong (white): I know you're broken down by anger and by sadness, You feel I left you in a world that's full of madness, Wish I could talk to you, if only for a minute, Make you understand the reasons why I did it, I wanna tell you that you're all that ever mattered, Want you to know that for eternity I'm shattered, I tried so hard just to protect you but I failed to, And in a prison of abandonment I've jailed you, I never planned that I would leave you there alone, I was sure that I would see you when I made it back home. [...] I didn't have a choice, I did what I had to do, I made a sacrifice but forced a bigger sacrifice on you.

This is Love by Air Traffic Conditioner - Both Wukong and Macaque could be perceived as singing this at different moments. There is an implication that their fates are forever horrible interconnected as they always come back to one another despite it all. You're no good, you're no good, You could kill me and you should, I'm an idiot for thinking, This was anything but blood, On the wall, on the couch, On the corner of my mouth, You must like being the victim, You've done nothing to get out, Of this pattern of pain, Washed away by the rain, You'll forgive me if I promise, And do nothing but the same, This is life until death, Could be my last dying breath, But this is love, love, shut up, this is love [...] It's pathetic, I know, A jealous fool who won't let go, If I was sorry for my actions, Would I ever stoop so low?

Goodbye Old Friend by The Devil Makes Three - Fairly self-explanatory. Wukong and Macaque can both be the singer, reminiscing on their complex relationship of love and hatred. I need you and I want you 'cause I know you from before, I hate you and I fear you but I hold open the door, I see you and you see me and we know what must be done, So we draw knives and lock eyes 'cause it does no good to run. [...] I've missed you, you know that's true and I've retraced every scar, [...] I chased you to embrace you like the sun chases the moon, I burn you and you burn me but I know I'll see you soon [...] I've held you and you've loved me but our lives cannot be spared, I trust you and despised you, shadowed your every move, Scorned you and warned you, befriended everyone you've used.

Old Friends by Ylvis - The calm reveal of someone being twisted ("I'm aiming at the kids") reflects nicely on Wukong and Macaque's relationship post-fire where Wukong was shocked to see what had happened to Macaque and how Macaque was simultaneously so calmly cunning yet unstoppably demented. Their respective "wives" in the song is the other one, simply their past selves before the battle/the fire. And he threw a rock, So I threw a rock, We both put some gravel in a sock, And he threw the sock, I said we should stop, He smiled at me then threw a rock in a sock. [<-these lines are about how they both keep fighting] [...] Oh [Macaque], oh [Macaque], don't you worry bout me now, I'm doing just fine on my own, There are other things to life than your soft skin against mine, And [Tripitaka] is helping me move on, I'm moving on.

Genghis Khan by Miike Snow - A song about how possessive, jealous and selfish Shadowpeach are of to one another. I know there's no form, And no labels to put on, To this thing we keep [...] 'Cause I don't really want you, girl, But you can't be free, 'Cause I'm selfish, I'm obscene [...] I wanna make up my mind, But I don't know myself, No I don't know myself [...] I get a little bit Genghis Khan, I don't want you to get it on, With nobody else but me.

Kiss With a Fist by Lungs - Self-explanatory. Shadowpeach's relationship is all about hurting the other. It's romantic! You hit me once, I hit you back, You gave a kick, I gave a slap, You smashed a plate over my head, Then I set fire to our bed, oh [...] I broke your jaw once before, I spilled your blood upon the floor, You broke my leg in return, So sit back and watch the bed burn, Love sticks, sweat drips, Break the lock if it don't fit [...] A kick in the teeth is good for some, A kiss with a fist is better than none.

Kiss Me You Animal by Burn the Ballroom - Self-explanatory. Another song about how Shadowpeach just can't keep their hands off each other, and how they love to see the other hurt. You say you wanna tear right through me, I welcome you to try (Kiss me, kiss me), I wanna see your teeth girl lemme see you grind, yeah, Woah [...] Kiss me you animal, I need to take you in real slow, Cause dying on your lips is how I wanna go, Connect with the sound you're making, Connect with my body whoa, Kiss me you animal and don't ever let me go.

Therapy from tick, tick... BOOM! - Literally listen to it. It is the pinnacle of Macaque and Wukong talking about their miscommunications and struggling to get along yet attempting to. Wukong: I feel bad, that you feel bad, About me feeling bad, about you feeling bad, About what I said, about what you said, About me not being able to share a feeling [...] I was afraid that you'd be afraid, If I told you that I was afraid of intimacy, If you don't have a problem with my problem, Maybe the problem's simply co-dependency [...] I thought, You Thought, I reacted shallowly, When I reacted to you. [...] If I were you and I'd done what I'd done, I'd do what you did when I gave you the ring, Having said what I said.

Macaque: If I thought that what you thought, Was that I hadn't thought about sharing my thoughts, Then my reaction to your reaction, to my reaction, Would have been more revealing [...] Yes, I know, that now you know, That I didn't know, that you didn't know, That when I said, "No," I meant, "Yes, I know," And that now I know that you knew, that I knew you adored me

Both: I'm not mad that you got mad when I got mad, When you said I should go drop dead!

Eclipse Twins

Evelyn Evelyn from Evelyn Evelyn - Self-explanatory, although not technically correct as Savage and Rumble did not grow up "closer than most." In fact, they are closer post-everything than they were as kids. Still, the point stands that they are two siblings who have a lot of differing opinions, perspectives, and arguments. One side struggles with keeping everything perfectly together while the other desperately wants to be free. Rumble (female): I’m only trying to do what is best for us [...] Looking in your eyes, I’m coming home [...] Now I realize, I’m not alone [...] But you never cared for me [...] ‘Cause you’d never dare to be [...] ‘Cause you never listen, you’re always insisting, I’m just reminiscing, I feel something missing, I just want you here with me, God can’t we just get along?

Savage (male): Well, I never asked for this, I never wanted this, All that I want is some time to myself [...] Just get away from me, please just stop touching me, You’re always trying to be somebody else [...] Well, you’re only scared of me [...] Why don’t you let me free? [...] ‘Cause you never listen, you’re always insisting, just stop reminiscing, I feel something missing, I just want my privacy, God won’t you leave me alone!

Wake Up by ChaoticCanineCulture - The song starts with Savage singing about how "they" (Macaque, Rumble) are haunting the halls and "killing her," and how she can't take the demand of killing her own father. My brother i'm begging you please understand, When I cry, I really can't take the demand, Oh they're killing me. Rumble continues the song as he finds himself just as lost and haunted as his sister, but with a flavor of self-torment. These dreams are made of things, I can't deny, I cannot flee, They're constantly tormenting me, can't close my eyes tonight. Then, the song ends with them begging to be saved. Wake up wake up, they're here, Please won't someone just save me?

Wukong's

Never Love an Anchor by The Crane Wives - Relatively self-explanatory. Wukong reflects on how his love only ever brought pain to others so he shouldn't get too close to them. It's a secret I keep tucked inside my chest, With this heart of mine that's guilty, not remorseful [...] There are times when I still wonder about you, You are someone I have loved, but never known, And you'll never see the reasons I had, For keeping my claws away when they were close enough to hurt you, I am selfish, I am broken, I am cruel, I am all the things they might have said to you, Do you ever think of me and my two hands? And wonder why they never soothed your fevers? [...] And wonder why they never held you gently? And wonder why they never had the chance to lose you?

My Ordinary Life by The Living Tombstone - Fairly self-explanatory. Much like the singer, Wukong reflects on how much he has been given in his life that he might not have necessarily deserved (such as forgiveness), and how out of touch he feels with reality sometimes. Do you feel me? Take a look inside my brain, The people always different but it always feels the same [...] The haters wanna hurt me and I'm laughin' at the pain [...] They tell me that I'm special, I smile and shake my head, I'll give them stories to tell friends about the things I said, They tell me I'm so humble, I say, "I'm turning red," They let me lie to them and don't feel like they've been misled, They give so much to me, I'm losing touch, get me? [...] The people blend together but I would be lost without their love, Can you heal me? Have I gained too much? When you become untouchable, you're unable to touch, Is there a real me? Pop the champagne, It hurts me just to think and I don't do pain.

I'm Your Man by Mitski - Completely inspired by this animatic, which will give you all the context to the lyrics you need. I'm sorry I'm the one you love, No one will ever love me like you again, So when you leave me, I should die, I deserve it, don't I? [...] People always gave me love, Others were never to blame after all, You believe me like a god, I'll betray you like a man.

Against the Kitchen Floor by Will Wood - Wukong apologizes for not being able to be as affectionate and trusting as he used to be, but promises he wants to do better for his family and friends, and Macaque. It just don't come natural to me to think that you'd want me for me, I swear, I'm really trying, Oh, I'm sorry, I promise, I'm doing my best, I just haven't learned how to be human as you are yet, I still don't know who you are, I only know that I'm still lonely, That morbid sort where even company can't cure me, And the more you reassure, the less I trust [...] I've lived more lives than enough, I haven't died quite as much, But I'm not a real person, just the shit you can't make up [...] I'm catatonic in your arms, Crying, "How did I cause so much harm?" I'm down pounding my head against the kitchen floor, Apologizing for my life and ever entering yours [...] I'm still in the process, but I'm making progress, I promise, I honestly wanna prove improvement's possible, I swear, I'm so fucking sorry, I'm not a good person, I'm barely a person at all, But someday I'll be perfect, and I'll make up for it all.

You Were Perfect & I'm Sorry by Mickey Darling - Very much a reflection of the title itself---Wukong believes Macaque deserved everything and is sorry he ruined everything, but with a self-deprecating egotistical twist to it. You were perfect and I'm so sorry, I'm such a dick, But you still love me, I still regret letting you leave me, Don't you forget you used to need me [...] How can I love someone that can't stand, The thought of loving me back? Why do I think I need that? [...] I remember what you said, You were wishing I was dead, Now, you're wishing me the best, 'Cause my song's stuck in your head.

Feed My Ego by Mickey Darling - Wukong mourning the relationship he lost, but make it self-deprecating egotistical again. I hurt u, For selfish reasons, U are all, I ever needed, needed, needed [...] U would be so good without me, happily, Nobody could ever be as, sad as me, All i need is compliments please, constantly, I make people think i’m happy, comedy.

HEAVEN SAYS. (remix) by GamePlayah - Wukong atones for his sins on the journey, slowly converting and accepting the pain from the fillet as his punishment. Now spell sinner: F-R-I-E-N-D-S Wrong! The correct spelling is Y-O-U, Just let go, Your past is sinful, Stop standing up, You can’t escape. [...] Answer for your crimes, Beg for mercy.

It's Been So Long by The Living Tombstone - Self-explanatory. Wukong mourns the death of his kids, and seeks revenge on their killer (Erlang Shen), though Tripitaka reminds him killing isn't justified. Justification is killing me, But killing isn't justified, What happened to my son? I'm terrified, It lingers in my mind, And the thought keeps on getting bigger, I'm sorry my sweet baby, I wish I'd been there.

the last beautiful thing I saw is the thing that blinded me by Paris Paloma - Despite the misleading title, this song is Wukong's perspective on Macaque's second death at his hands, albeit in a theatric, poetic, solemn way that is more Macaque's style. The moment of Macaque's death and imprisonment was difficult, and Wukong cut himself off from feeling anything ("blinding" himself). The dove represents Macaque and how he "became a demon," but the fact that "somebody else" killed her reveals the story is made-up and Wukong feels a disconnection from reality. I came across an injured dove, I wanted to put her out of her misery, There came no signal from above, No sign, no guide, I thought "whatever could this mean?" And with my hand I picked her up, And in that moment, oh it shifted magically [...] Because I wanted all of it to stop, And I didn't know how to tell you, I didn't know how [...] And I looked up, into the sun, It separated all the colors, And the ice, into my eyes, It fell and left me blind.

Used to be Young by Miley Cyrus - Wukong reflects on his younger years, both the good and the bad, and how people still believe he should be how he used to be. I know I used to be crazy, Messed up, but, God, was it fun, I know I used to be wild, That's 'cause I used to be young, Those wasted nights are not wasted, I remember every one, I know I used to be crazy, That's 'cause I used to be young, You tell me time has done changed me, That's fine, I've had a good run I know I used to be crazy, That's 'cause I used to be young.

Macaque's

The Moon Will Sing by The Crane Wives - Self-explanatory. Macaque always felt like Wukong's shadow, and wished he could have been seen as more than what he was, and that he hadn't followed Wukong so blindly. The moon will sing a song for me, I loved you like the sun, Bore the shadows that you made, With no light of my own, I shine only with the light you gave me [...] (I could've been anyone, anyone).

iGhost by MNQN - Macaque talks both fondly and angrily about how all he ever was was Wukong's "Van Gogh" (the painting, and the artist), and how he fears getting hurt again by getting too close. You fooled me once, You fooled me twice, again, I had a hunch, That it was all pretend [...] I'm hypnotised, You're telling lies again, You were my life, And now you're not my friend [...] I'll play it safe, I cannot be broken, I've been erased and now I'm gone again [...] The senses deceive us from time to time, And it is prudent never to trust wholly those, Who have deceived us even once, But yet, I still come back.

taking a stand by updog - Macaque lamenting to Wukong how he was neglected, ignored, and pushed aside, and how he won't stand for it anymore. And no amount of words could ever fix the damage done, No matter how much you ignore it wont come undone, Hard to blame you when you acted out of cowardice [...] Picturing your end, I will not pretend that, It might feel so sweet, You left me no option. 'Cause this scar it never healed, All the hurt will be revealed.

The Ballad of Lucy Gray Baird from The Hunger Games - Macaque tells the tale of how he and Wukong grew up, then grew apart, and questions what Wukong would do when he was gone. Well, all right, I'm bad, but then, you're no prize either, All right, I'm bad, but then, that's nothing new, You say you won't love me, I won't love you neither, Just let me remind you what I am to you [...] It's sooner than later that I'm six feet under, It's sooner than later that you'll be alone, So who will you turn to tomorrow, I wonder, For when the bell rings, lover, you're on your own.

taixu (ネジ巻き師と太虚鳥) by Iasah - This one is more symbolic, fitting Macaque's love of theatre. The white crow and black crow represent Macaque's selves, but also his fates (Which of the crows told you the truth? [...] The crows were both myself, Or was it you?). The song reflects on how he used to perceive that he and Wukong were destined to do great things together, but then it became that only Wukong was destined and Macaque, "was not chosen." The list of deaths is both literal and metaphorical, representing, in order: The first end came so suddenly, You couldn't say goodbye to me (his death in the fire; literal), The tenth end came with agony, I thought that we were meant to be (Wukong killing him; literal), The hundredth end was simply just, An apathetic day for me (the resurrections of the Eclipse Sibs; literal), The thousandth end was ecstasy, The people begged for me to bleed (the failure of killing Wukong; metaphorical), The millionth end was vanity, I thought I saw you smile at me (Possessed!Wukong fighting Macaque; metaphorical). By the end of the song, Macaque has realized his life is up to him to choice (I killed the crow that tried deceiving, "No, the world is up to me!").

Pomegranate Lips by Derivakat - Macaque would make this his self-assigned theme song because it's cool and mysterious, which he thinks he is, and also all about how someone screwed him over but he's better than them. Been through nine circles of hell, even dragged some people down, I can cut right through a soul with a snap, don't need a spell, So what gave you the right? I'm the queen of death and life, Whether you like it or not [...] So bite your tongue and watch your back, Show some respect or you'll get a taste of these, Pomegranate lips.

Tool by Derivakat - Macaque spitefully believes that Wukong only ever sought to use him like a tool. So I'll cut you off once, you say try, try again, I'm ghosting you twice, you still claim I'm your friend, You set me on fire three times, now I'm done, 'Cause you lit the fuse, and you loaded the gun [...] I'm done with your lies, and I'm done with your games, So cry all about it and I'll take the blame.

Eden by Derivakat - Opposite to the anger in Tool, this "version" of Macaque is much calmer, though sadder, about how he believes Wukong never cared about him, though he believes it wasn't necessarily Wukong's intention. We were living in a garden made for two, But two is one too many and he doesn't understand, When he crushes all the flowers that I grew, I want him off this land [...] 'Cause he's nothing but a liar, Caught up in his own desire, He started this fire, so let him fall in flames, You know he's the one to blame [...] Kick him out of paradise, Finally he'll realize, Too late to apologize to Eden, To Eden, to Eden.

Mrs. Bluebeard by They Might Be Giants - Macaque laments bitterly on how he never should have trusted Wukong, and how the world is cruel. I want to say I learned something valuable today, Alas, my murdered remains are incapable of learning anything, Trusted you, I should have never trusted you, In fact I never did, What's the use [...] Most people wouldn't hang the corpses up for review, Dearest, I can only hope most people are nothing like you [...] Is this how you thank somebody, For their selfless loyalty? Is this what you do? Pardon me for failing to grasp how this works, Excuse my breathtaking ignorance.

The Haunting by Set It Off - Macaque talks about how he suffered and how he will torment Wukong for the rest of his existence. So you dragged me by my feet, To a ghost town, where you buried me, No wonder no one heard my screams [...] Run away, boy, if you couldn't tell, Baby's got a thirst for blood [...] Catch a lover, turn an enemy, Just to watch them burn alive [...] No one will love you like I did, Will treat you like I did, So go on, wear that scarlet letter, No one will love you like I did, Will touch you like I did, So good luck finding something better.

Problematic by BoyWithUke - Macaque sings about how Wukong broke his heart and his trust. Why did you love me so? Watch me as I let you go? Told you that I'm better off alone without you in my home, I let you in my heart, let you back into my arms, Fool for thinking we could make it faking every single part, I thought that maybe you could be the final fucking remedy, The one to pull me out if I were ever stuck inside a dream, I'm looking back at times we had, the things we did and things we can't, How could you stab me in the back? I thought you were better than that.

You're Going Down by Sick Puppies - A good ol' battle song between Shadowpeach. The singer is Macaque rather than Wukong here as the singer laments that the fight is no longer worth it, yet he can't let go and must keep fighting. Let's take a trip down memory lane (do you remember me?), The words circlin' in my brain (look what you did to me), You can treat this like another, all the same, But don't cry like a bitch when you feel the pain [...] This is hardly worth fighting for, But it's the little petty shit that I can't ignore, When my fist hits your face and your face hits the floor, It'll be a long time comin', Bet you got the message now, 'Cause I was never goin', Yeah, you're the one that's going down!

Hermit the Frog by Marina and the Diamonds - While its also a Savage song, the romantic undertones push it towards Macaque. This song reflects Macaque's conflicted mental state post-family-break-up, where he's started to recover himself a little bit, but still feels this hatred inside of himself. Yeah, I feel it coming on When I've been static for too long, And an explosion comes in time, Before I go and cross the line [...] Well, I went to the doctors believing, The devil had control over me and, I was finding it hard to breathe in, Finding it hard to fight the feeling [...] You can take your double standard love and keep it, I can't help the devil likes to make my heart a double bed.

Villain by Bella Poarch - Macaque sings about how he'll be the villain, but make it flirty. I'll be the villain tonight, I kinda like when you despise me after we fight, (Feels so much better when I'm), Pushin' all your buttons 'til you're crawlin' on the floor, You say you hate my guts, but you're still coming back for more [...] What's you and I without a little pain? Tastes bittersweet each time you say my name, If love was poison, we would drink it anyways, Feels so good playing these wicked little games.

SAY THAT YOU MISS ME by Mickey Darling - Macaque both taunts Wukong for what he did (Hey necrophiliac what are you doing? I said why are you trying to fuck me, If I am dead to you?) and demands an answer from Wukong, not willing to honestly admit that he misses what they had, instead hiding behind anger. I said "you broke my heart," You said "boo hoo," I said "I'm going to leave," You said "please do," I said "I hated you," You said "me too" [...] It's harder than you think finding someone for me, That could ever compete with somebody like you, I cant help that I hate every fucking girl I date, Cause it always feels the same, like im cheating on you, Hate that I have to say, babe, I made a mistake, Thinking anybody could have ever been you, They'll never be you.

Hell and You by Amigo the Devil - A song portraying Macaque's obsession with Wukong, be it in love or as enemies, or something twistedly in-between. Cause I'd rot in hell with you, If you'd just ask me to, I love the shitty things we do together, Live with me in this sin forever, Hell and you, I know you want it too [...] I'd crawl in bed with you, Even on someone else's blood on top of someone else's love, In the worst motel we find, Cause home is the last place that I'd stand to be with anyone but you.

Cannibal by Naethan Apollo - Another song about how Macaque is obsessed with Wukong, even when he hurts him, as he struggles to choose between leaving him alone entirely or continuing to seek his attention. Think I got the message, Thought our love was destined, But it's more like a death wish, A guarantee for misery [...] Tell me when I overreact, No, tell me again, please, I love being told what to do, But only when I'm told by you, At least, that's what I used to think, But nowadays, I'm on the brink.

The Red Means I Love You by Madds Buckley - Another song about Macaque being obsessed with Wukong, but this time it's set when he truly was obsessed with him---post-fire, post-imprisonment, post-resurrections. This Macaque can't see clearly at all, and is obsessed with making Wukong bleed if it's the only way to feel close to him. They say such a shame, I turned out this way, A maniac, Well, yeah, I get manic when I cause a panic, And of course, I'm excited when I see you around [...] You leave me high and dry, A rush comes to my mind at the drops, Of blood you leave behind, Run as you might, my love will never, ever, Stop.

TERRIBLE THINGS by Axie - This song follows the degraded mental state of "zombie" Macaque, post-Eclipse Sibs' resurrection, and how he knows he is doing terrible things, but that he cannot bring himself to feel anything remorseful, until time goes on, and things start changing inside him. This song also lists his deaths: 30 years with torture you can’t comprehend (the fire), 40 years, they’re seeking for means to an end (killed and imprisoned by Wukong), 50 years attached onto puppeteer strings (the Eclipse Sibs' resurrection, and his subsequent debt to LDB). The song begins to hint towards Macaque regretting and wanting to be free near the end. I just want to die, yeah, So please just let me die!, I’m undefeatable, I'm thriving, ‘Cause I know a thing or two when it comes to being killed, It’s oh so very painful, And I don’t want it to happen again, and again, and again!

Savage's

Catabolic Seed by The Scary Jokes - Savage feels lost and hopeless after everything that's happened to her, and she desperately wants to feel like she's in control. That dissipated so fast, seems the good times never last, And I always fall flat on my back, like an upside-down cat, But is bad luck really such a crime? [...] I want to destroy everything that's mine [...] (I'm safe, I'm whole, I've got it under control), My structure's compromised, (I'm safe, I'm whole, I've got it under control), But you still batter at all my fault lines, (And I will protect you even if you won't protect me too), I can't run, I can't hide, but you can't say I didn't try.

Second Child, Restless Child by The Oh Hellos - She was born the second child, though truly she wasn't the restless child---that was Rumble. But the song does reflect how she wanted to run away from it all. And they saw trouble in my eyes, They were quick to recognize the devil in me [...] And Heaven knows how hard I tried, But the devil whispered lies I believed [...] You've got to go on, further than you've ever gone, You've got to run far from all you've ever known.

Shared Eyes by Blixemi - Savage laments about how misunderstood she is and how mistreated she was by her family, and how much she simultaneously wants to hurt them and wants their attention. I figured this would be, A great time to misunderstand me [...] I used to beg and plead, But you sit there ever silently, 'Cause you can't hear it, Won't stand to hear it [...] I'm not who you think I am, If you think of me at all [...] You've let hate blossom, Now you cannot recognize [...] I wish your silence came from hate, Then at least I'd know why I'm to blame [...] So fine, I'll find the rage, To scorch out on my own, And in my wreckage, may you burn upon your throne [...] It seems to me, That I have always been the problem, Though I'd wish to solve it [...] I'm not who I think I am, When you think you've seen it all, In this frozen state of apathy, I've blossomed with every flaw, To hate I've fallen, And I now can't recognize, Your eyes that you despise [...] This feels wrong, It's not playing out right, How am I colder now, Upon a bridge I chose to ignite? [...] You close your eyes but open mine, I hate the way you make me hate myself for sharing eyes, You're not who you think you are, And I wish I never knew, I don't want to see the irony, That you hate me for being you.

Play With Fire by Sam Tinnesz - Savage copes with lighting fires, and she likes being dramatic. This song would be her jam. Let a girl be edgy and cringey. Insane, inside, The danger gets me high, Can't help myself, Got secrets I can't tell, I love the smell of gasoline, I light the match to taste the heat, I've always liked to play with fire.

Dead Mom from Beetlejuice - Savage sings to her Alive Dad, Wukong. Alternative lyrics can be found in the comment section on WGTKITD... somewhere. And no one sees me, Nothing seems to fit, Mamma is this it? Are you receiving? I want something to believe in or I'm done.

Already Dead by KittenSneeze - Savage talks about how she felt almost "possessed" by Macaque and Rumble as they forced her to fight and attempt to kill her own father, and how, now, she can't tell what she does or doesn't want anymore. I woke up in a daze, My mind in a haze, The smell of devastation lingers, What did he make me do? Or did I want to? I can't get the blood off my fingers [...] You don't need to believe me but just understand, That you can't get too close, Not with what I have planned [...] Do any of you know what it's like to walk through the fire? Know how to fight the crushing desire? Go with a knife to do what's required? I'm already dead since you got in my head!

Daddy's Little Monster by TryHardNinja - As the title suggests, Savage pleads for others to understand that she doesn't want to be cruel, she's just "daddy's little monster," referring to Macaque (for the most part). She wants to start anew, but feels like she's kept in a prison, especially as she looks at herself and remembers what she looks like now... Please don't be afraid, we're a little bent, Broken souls looking for a way to start again [...] You need us, we need you, it'll be alright, Yeah, it's alright, We don't want to stay under lock and key, You can help break the curse, we all wanna leave [...] If we could only shed our shells, Wear a mask and escape these cells, On the surface, we could start new.

Miss Wanna Die by JubyPhonic - Savage isn't exactly about being resurrected, and she isn't happy with her life... She would resonate with this song a lot. It both fits her character, and is a song she would listen to. Ah wanna die, wanna die, But don't really wanna die, You were there, you would care, Making me aware, Every scar, all the blood, More and more, they’re never done, Not enough, not enough, Ah wanna die, wanna die, But don't really wanna die, If I died, you would cry, And I don't know why [...] I wanna live, wanna live, Deep inside I've always been, Reaching out for a hand, so don’t let this be the end.

The Devil Within by Digital Daggers - Let's be real, this is how Savage sees herself, or wants to see herself. Cool, mysterious, dangerous... But really she's just angry. And dangerous. But, the song's vibes still stand---she wants to hurt others and protect herself. I made myself at home, In the cobwebs and the lies, I'm learning all your tricks, I can hurt you from inside, I made myself a promise, You would never see me cry, 'Til I make you [...] I'm gonna make you suffer, This hell you put me in, I'm underneath your skin, The devil within [...] Look what you made of me, Now I'm the heavy burden that you can't bear.

Rumble's

Sin Triangle by Sidney Gish - Rumble desperately wants to be like everybody else, but struggles with his own inner demons as he tries to fit in and be cool as a young demon, and then struggles with rebuilding his family as he feels guilty for destroying it in order to get what he'd wanted. Two-faced bitches never lie, And therefore I never lie, Diagram this sin triangle for me tonight, because, I don't know what to say, A sickness by another name, Wouldn't be sweet either but, With luck, it would at least look much more tame [...] Bill Woodruff here has something on his mind, He wants something, In fact [...] You want certain things from other people and your environment, The way you go about getting those things, Reveals your personality [...] Did you ever want, so much, To make a good impression on someone? What did you do? How accepted was your personality? Did you ever feel alone, out of place, When you wanted very much to be part of the group?

¿Viva la Gloria? (Little Girl) by Green Day - On the inside, Rumble is cracking under the knowledge of everything he did to harm (manipulate, deception, double-crossing) his family. He feels like a stray without a home. Little girl, little girl, Why are you crying? Inside your restless soul, Your heart is dying [...] There is no place like home, When you got no place to go [...] Little one, little one, The sky is falling, Your lifeboat of deception, Is now sailing [...] Your bloodshot eyes, Will show your heart of treason, Little girl, little girl, You dirty liar, You're just a junkie, Preaching to the choir [...] The traces of blood, Always follow you home, Like the mascara tears, From your getaway, You're walking with blisters, And running with shears, So unholy.

Icicles by The Scary Jokes - Rumble convinces himself of his self-entitlement; that he is better than everyone else. He is jealous of what everyone else has, both in past and present. He hates having to always be the one to "play nice." But, at the same time, his flaws (The one where you are crying, And I don't do anything at all, directly referring to his treatment of Savage) are catching up, and he can't stay on the pedestal he put himself on forever. Get in your zone, don't even look at them at all, Their shallow observations will only stall the transformation, You've become art, how could they even start to see, Beyond your presentation when they've got no imagination? [...] I can only be forgiven if I'm giving myself up to you, On a silver serving tray, Must I bare myself to the stabbing of your knife and gnashing teeth, While our lovely company appears so entertained? [...] My world has turned so cold, but I won't cry, 'Cause icicles don't soften when they die, So why should I?

Soup Song by Nep - Rumble has very mixed feelings towards his family, and he struggles under the weight of being the "good one" when no one else will try. I hate you and I loved you for a very long time, I do not share any more, I'd ask you how'd you do if I was feeling kind, I do not dare anymore, My mom got a new job, and my dad's doing just fine, I do not mind anymore [...] If I had a tendency to yell, Your ears would be numb, If I had it in me to tell you off, You would be done, I'm not used to feeling so down and so dumb, Guess I thought that I was lovable, Kinda thought that I was lovable [...] I put my head down, and you stepped on my neck, I cannot take any more.

Smokey Eyes by Lincoln - Rumble desperately wants to bring his family back together, and struggles through his emotions with how difficult it is. The song also has implications towards his struggles with addictions and unhealthy coping mechanisms. Some people want to be your friend, Some people just want to be free, And the worst thing about me, Is that I’m somewhere in between, I might miss you, But I’m still trying to get clean [...] Quiet lies that you’re telling to, Those black and screaming skies [...] This is not what all my idols told me college would be like, I hope someday you learn to take your own advice [...] So help me make amends with all my friends, Most other people are just dead ends, There’s nothing worse than making friends.

How Did You Love by Shinedown - Rumble would totally sing this family to his family, specifically his parents, questioning, "how did you love?" and what they left behind. You can try to fight it, just like every other careless mistake, How do you justify? I'm mystified by the ways of your heart, With a million lies, the truth will rise to tear you apart [...] Nothing ever feels the quite same when you are what you dreamed, And you will never look at anything the same when you see what I see, How we forget ourselves, lose our way from the cradle to the grave [...] No one gets out alive, every day is do or die, The one thing you leave behind, Is how did you love, how did you love?

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