I can never take Convergence: Nightwing/Oracle seriously. I’ve read it and all I see is Gail Simone’s self insert. And now that DC has canonized Barbara’s middle name to be Gail I can’t unsee it even more. Perhaps Gail didn’t mean to write it that way but it is hard not to see the comparison especially when they are drawn looking alike.

It's interesting that DC let Barbara's name work as an homage to Simone in someway. While people generally really love her on Birds of Prey, I know a lot of others question her ability to effectively write certain minority groups. Simone is however, really good at humanizing characters in her writing. Lady Shiva for example was definitely more humanized in some ways during her tenure in Birds of Prey. This has mixed opinions amongst fans though for a few different reasons.

As for Convergence, its not taken too seriously nowadays is it?

This blog will be on a hiatus for some time. I'd like to take time to help our mods deal with the messages they've been receiving through this blog.

Our goal in starting it was for people to have a safe place to discuss and critique things within the fandom and canon. We're incredibly saddened by how many of our fellow fans choose to disrespect and dehumanize us anonymously and through their blogs.

More than that, we are disappointed. Somehow, we expected people to be more mature and respectful than they were.

We will always strive to protect our submitters from the harassment others send their way through us. It is not deserved.

Please feel free to send in submissions if you like. We will be happy to answer them when we get back.

Stay safe and be well everyone!

-Admin

Alright.

I'm incredibly frustrated I have to bring this up again and apologize to anyone who has sent us a submission on this character. They will not be posted for a while.

Every time we post a submission with Cassandra Cain in it, we almost instantaneously get some blog that complains to us. They demand to know you sent what submission and harass the mods who refuse. They threaten us daily and honestly? I'm tried of it. I won't allow anyone to harass the mods anymore.

Even in the post about Cass and Damian's mixed heritage we got several DMs from people angry with the anon and us about Cass. We didn't get anyone for Damian. In fact, we haven't ever got a hate message on any of the characters except Cassandra.

Our mod Selene has been devastated with the messages she constantly received through us by people who claimed to love the same character she loves with all she is.

Back to the post on mixed heritage, most of the people Dming us claimed we were racist and anti-Asian. They came from supposed Asians themselves. A quick search of these blogs proved that not all of them actually were. Those that were Asian were in the minority incredibly unforgiving to the idea that mixed Asians exist. We don't know if this is exclusively related simply to the character in question and frankly, I am too exhausted to care.

One of the most vicious blogs who would harass Selene claimed she was a fake fan, constantly set extremely ableist messages and very serious threats against her.

I search their blog a lo and behold, all the things they preach about the character, thrown away in their fanfics. Cass's ideology apparently doesn't matter as long as they wrote it. She could murder who she wanted as long as it was on their terms.

I'm sick and tired of this. We won't be posting Cass related submissions for an unspecified period of time. I just can't take stans' harassment anymore.

A comic character is allowed to be criticized or explored. Many fans may not be informed about the character. Instead of being aggressive, try being informative in a kinder way.

Please feel free to send submissions on all other characters. We won't delete Cass related ones, but they wont be posted for some time probably.

-Admin

One of the things that always confused me about the Batgirl 2000s comic run was that weird relationship exploration with Cass and Kon. Like, wasn't she 18 and he was like at most maybe 16 at the time? Because isn't he supposed to be around the same age as Tim? Meaning he would've been 15-16 and I just find it weird that the writers would want a legal adult character to be with a minor, even if the age difference is small (being like 2-3 years). I know no comic run is perfect (I mean no one ever acknowledges that Bruce was lowkey neglectful towards Cassandra in anyway that didn't benefit the Batman and Batgirl agenda). He's all "David Cain abused her!!!!" But BRO you won't even teach her how to even fake having social skills. When I first read it in the early 2000s I was thinking "Okay, this will all play out in some logical and mature way" but it never really does. Any thoughts on this? (Also I am a Cass stan so please don't bully me I was so scared to ask this)

Yeah...DC isn't good with romantic relationships. I think Kon is supposed to be the same age as Tim, meaning, according to what Batgirl 2000 alone says, would give them about 3 years of age difference between him and Cass.

That being said, other comics dispute and mix up the ages of the characters all the time. Sometimes, Cass is the same age or very close in age to Tim (this is also indirectly highlighted by their different type of relationships with each other in the DC canon and DC alternate universes). Jen once told me about meeting some DC writers who admitted that a lot of the editors and executives kinda just forget what age group Tim and Cass are supposed to be in lol. Technically, there supposed to be slightly younger than Jason but then there was that comic where Bruce takes Cass to Jason's grave and says he's supposed to turn 18 but that doesn't exactly line up with Jason's actual return to comics and his age progression so its just one big old mess.

By now, Cass, Kon and Tim should all be adults but DC doesn't know how to do that. They have this idea that they gotta keep Tim perpetually 17 or he won't fill their dumb quota of Wayne boys being suck in the past (many of those poor writers and editors must have some serious dad issues. I feel y'all man but this ain't it). They also follow that weird trend of aging and de-aging Superfamily characters. So, who knows maybe Kon was 18 in the Batgirl run and then magically turned 15-16 again for Young Justice and Teen Titans 2008.

Another problem with Cass's age specifically is that a lot of the time, DC borders on infantilizing her cause some writers and editors don't know how to write neurodivergent characters. Yeah, it plays into the East Asian stereotype of infantilization but I think its more a problem of them not knowing how to write neurodivergents. They wrote it out of her character time and time again for a reason (cause heavens forbid we have a mentally disabled character whose also a badass.)

This is all coming from someone who has been infantilized all their life and still is for being Asian so. Yeah, DC isn't good at relationships or solidifying ages.

-Jun

I once saw someone complain about the color of Cassandra’s eyes in Wayne Family Adventures, and blamed it on “colorism.” And that just annoyed me because one, her eyes were colored dark gray, I thought they were meant to be black, and two, Cass is half-white. She’s mixed. And as a mixed guy who looks more white than Asian it annoys me when people decry having ANY features from the white parent as “colorism” or “racism” on the part of artists. Cass is already pretty obviously Asian. Mixed kids exist too!

This also goes for some of the discourse on Damian. Yes, he should get features from his mom. Yes, lots of artists are weird about drawing him. Yes, he can still be lighter than Talia and it’s not racist.

Since a big chunk of the "Batfamily" fanbase is in the USA (or since the comics originate from the USA) a lot of the ways race is dealt with (or simply ignored) is through how race is perceived in USA society.

A lot of the time, people simply refuse to acknowledge that it's possible to hold features from multiple ethnic backgrounds because they want to lean hard on just a single one of those identities.

In terms of eye color and skin color, that is definitely variable in many ways. You can have an epicanthic fold and still have "colored" eyes. You can be of Arab-Chinese (like Damian is from his mother's side) descent and have an overall light skin-tone. The opposite is also true. You can still be mixed, and have features that people would consider average or normal for certain ethnic backgrounds.

Considering how popular Cass and Damian are, it is understandable that people want them to have certain ethnic features because the representation for those ethnic backgrounds are typically negative, stereotyped or nonexistent (at least in perspective of the USA).

I think with Damian's character specifically, it has more to do with the negative, racist and stereotypical ways Talia is often portrayed. Talia in many of her appearances is the definition of The Dragon Lady stereotype. A femme fatale, self-centered and motivated only by her own goals. Damian's character in that way, is perhaps meant to somehow remedy these faults. Either way, since he's a comic character and not real, there is no set depiction of him that fully confirms what physical genes he's inherited from either parents.

As for Cass, a lot of Eurasians in the USA with a parent whose ethnic background is Anglo-Saxon or Germanic (like David Cain whose nationality is American and thus, most likely of either of those descents) tend to inherit less color based characteristics from their (usually western) European descent parent and more physiognomical features (such as eye shape, usually having a weaker epicanthic fold or nose shape, having a higher nose bridge). Inheriting "colored" eyes is less likely but DEFINITELY not impossible. It all depends on where your parents are ethnically from and how your genes end up recombining.

Now, all that being said, positive representation in the USA of Asian people is still hard to come by, so it is natural for a lot of folks to want characters to have features more typical of fully ethnic Asians. However, everyone deserves to see themselves in a character and the dynamics of mixed features shouldn't be ignored. Unfortunately, the balancing act is difficult to manage and no matter what you do, you'll still have people made at you one way or another.

This was way more detailed than probably intended the stupidly expensive education I paid for was begging to be used at least a little.

-Jun

DickHelena might have been a messy ship but it was also so charming at times. I hate how Helena Bertinelli gets treated but it’s also very sus that Dick has slept and kissed Helena multiple times yet everyone just happens to forget.

One of the conflicts lays in that Helena and Barbara are meant to be good friends, especially considering the Birds of Prey. Really, as dynamically interesting as the ship could be, DC nowadays and by the late 2000s-2010s couldn't decide how they wanted to proceed with Helena's character.

They didn't want Helena's more morally grey mindset to conflict with the ideology they've been building for Batman and Co. 🤷🏽‍♀️. And since Barbara was technically a "Batman" character before she was the leader of the BoP, they needed Helena to conform to some type of ideology or just change her drastically.

We started this blog not just out of plain love for the Batman universe but because there's so much hypocrisy, gatekeeping and righteousness within the community/fandom.

People like Helena, Selina and Jason, for example, can never actually be the characters they're meant to be, lest they go against the moral obligations of Batman and Co.

As for Helena's relationship with Dick, their one nightstand was more meant for shock value, petty drama and to further damage Helena's character.

My controversial opinion is the Barbara should be able date people that aren’t Dick Grayson. Dick Grayson gets to have other relationships but Barbara never does.

She dated that guy Jason for a hot second. I forget his last name. He was a civilian. I think DC dropped that for...obvious reasons.

-Jen

People who think Dick is anything less than one of the most important characters to the Batman universe AND Titans/Justice League are wrong. He has been around for basically as long as Superman and Batman. Thus, been around longer than pretty much any hero, villain, anti-hero or anything over and in between in American made comics. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge his INCREDIBLE leadership skills or his insane fighting prowess are wrong. He trained as an elite acrobat since birth. He carried that training into being Robin. He should be UNMATCHED when it comes to sheer acrobatic skill. He should be a terribly difficult opponent for anyone. To make him anything less is such a disservice to his character and I'm tired of fans demeaning him as a mother-hen (especially in the batfam fandom). He is not a mother-hen and never has been. He has never been coddling or parent like. He is his own person with his own struggles and has always been more like a brother than a parent to Damian. Making him into a parent figure is such a huge mischaracterization of Dick.

People who think Jason as Red Hood should have to reduce and comprise his morality for Batman do a disservice to what Jason stood for as Robin. He showed more than once as Robin that he prioritizes the safety and livelihoods of the poor, marginalized, oppressed and exploited. No offense, but writers use Batman and other batfamily members as saviors of marginalized people. Bruce has never been in the position of a poor person, nor someone who has NO POWER over their oppressors. When Gloria h*ng herself because the law allowed Felipe Garzonas to be set free—her r*pist, it was a direct look into the very reality of people who have no justice because people with power like Felipe get away with their crimes. Batman allowed it, saying there was nothing to be done because the law was flawed and Felipe would always get away. What's the point of doing what he does then? Jason's character as Red Hood shouldn't have to conform to the Batfamily's ideology because even if it helps some people (and it does) their methods don't guarantee justice despite the countless laws they ironically break.

People who think Tim is the resident genius of the Batfamily and its smartest member do a disservice to his beginnings and development as Robin. Yes, he figured out the Batfamily's identities through the quadruple flip but that wasn't through genius. It was through COMMITMENT. Tim isn't the smartest of the Batfamily but he IS one of the most committed people to his own cause. What Tim stands for is hope, for belief, to be the one who will try for and find a solution through determination and strict application. He is INCREDIBLY smart because of how he applies himself not just because of some innate genius from the get go. His commitment is one of the core reasons he balances and completes a character like Cass.

People who think Cass being the best FIGHTER is the central and core importance of her character does a disservice to abuse survivors. The ENTIRE point of her Batgirl (2000s) run wasn't to showcase that she was the best fighter but to show that her one track, absolutist drive was a direct cause of the abuse she suffered and that by developing out of being STRICTLY absolutist mentality, she was outgrowing and healing from the abuse she suffered under David Cain. If anything, her wanting to maintain being the best is not an inspiration but a tragedy. As a child she was FORCED to be the best and as a teenager, she continued to treat herself under the same expectation. Batman did the same damn thing and he didn't have to shoot her in the back to do it. He did it by denying her language, by isolating her, by treating her as Batgirl before Cassandra by letting her treat herself as Batgirl before Cassandra. Cass said herself that she could be mediocre (which obviously isn't true. Her defense needed practice but her offense was still INSANELY AMAZIMG) for a lifetime or perfect for a year. She still treats herself as a weapon. Just because it isn't a weapon to kill, doesn't mean its not a weapon. Its not that Cass is the best fighter (the Wu San gift isn't infallible, but Cass IS WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT ONE of the Best fighters. If Shiva can acknowledge other characters as highly skilled opponents she might lose against so should fans) its that she was struggling to come to terms with her abuse and that the people around her didn't know how to handle that type of abuse.

People who think Damian isn't an abuse survivor are wrong. He, like Cass was trained to be a weapon (yes, a "leader" for the League but no. He was moreso a vessel if anything.). He might've been taught language and strategy but what was emphasized in his youth was the ability to kill without remorse. To see life as disposable. Damian's character shouldn't be about finding his morality through the Batman way but of a look into the complexities of family legacies, of the pressures parents and grandparents put on their children and of generational trauma perpetuated by the fears of ones parents.

Whew. I apologize in advance for the hell storm the comments and reblogs might become.

Please keep it respectful everyone lol

-Jun

Your mod who sends that panel is the coolest! Lol

I am pretty dank if I do say so myself.

-Jun

Was just reading a panel that had Bruce tell Jason as Robin that what they do isn’t for revenge and Jason replies “we don’t?” and Bruce is meant to reflect that they shouldn’t do things for revenge.

It is a great scene because Bruce and Dick share that in common while Jason was just simply recruited into being Robin. He just wanted out of the life he was living and wanted to escape being a criminal. So telling Jason as a kid that what they do isn’t for revenge is something Jason knows isn’t necessarily true for Bruce or Dick. He wasn’t looking for revenge, and if you take the scene from Batman Eternal out or context then Jason was correct when he said “none of us Robins were ever as good as Batgirl. She doesn’t do what she does for revenge. She doesn’t fight for some ghost. She fights for somebody alive.” It’s a great parallel because Robin!Jason and Batgirl!Barbara didn’t do what they did for revenge, they simply believed in helping people in any way they could, and they explicitly didn’t have a moral code that was their own but followed Batman’s code because it was all they knew. Later when they turn into Red Hood and Oracle, they don’t follow Batman’s code and have their own and they do change greatly from their roles and what they belived in as Robin and Batgirl.

An ironic panel, considering both Batman and Dick started out their vigilante careers because they were seeking vengeance. This is a good insight into some of Jason's motivations as Robin (juxtaposed with some of his motivations as Red Hood) and Barbara's motivations as Batgirl (and then Oracle).

Hey everyone! We had a temporary mod sending out response comments by mistake on some of the posts. We've went ahead and corrected the issue! Sorry if anyone got an unfinished reply to their questions! The moderator accidentally answered with their own account instead of this one! 😅 It's hard finding more moderators to help us with the DMs and questions. Maybe we should open an application?

-Admin

There are panels you completely forget about but then you see it come across your dash and suddenly all the memories of when you were reading and what age you were come back to you. When I first started reading comics I started with Death of the Family but since then I have gone back and read up and have caught up with all batfamily, but one small background scene has always captured my attention and has been linked to so many memories and friendships for me in comics. The panel in Death of the Family where the bats are all holding each other and Jason Todd and Barbara Gordon are holding hands in the way back still to this day has managed to fill me with those memories. I just thought I share what comics do since it isn’t taken as seriously as other forms of literary media, and we all have those panels that for whatever reason make us feel a certain way.

One of our mods constantly sends that panel into the group chat anytime they agree with another one of us on anything. The novelty somehow hasn't worn off but I am just waiting for the right moment to unleash my response panel.

-Jen

I never liked the way Dick Grayson treated Barbara Gordon when she was Batgirl and he was Robin. Every instance of him calling her “just a girl” or not taking her seriously angers me because she so desperately wanted to be taken seriously and prove that she could be Batgirl, only for a younger teenage boy to tell her A GROWN WOMAN these things. And people think it’s cute that “boy is mean to girl because he actually likes her” without seeing how much Barbara would have really hated that. And it is not that it is out of character for Dick to do that because of how he handled his relationship with Koriand’r later on. Batgirl and Robin’s time is so incredibly warped and as times goes on it’s either made cutesy or is seen as the good old times while sweeping the rest of it under the rug which is so unfair to Barbara Gordon. There’s also all the instances when Barbara is Oracle and Dick calls her Batgirl. Barbara a character who wanted respect both as Batgirl and Oracle and it saddens me that she wasn’t always called what she wanted to be called. Even in BoP when she gives her dialogue about how the batboys live in the past and she moved on to live a life that is fulfilling, Dick still is shown to know best. The boy who called her silly and called her just a girl knows her more than she knows herself. It angers me. And it angers me that people will turn around and try to justify it.

While it is true that initially, Barbara was closer to Bruce's age when she was first introduced, it was retconned sometime ago for her to be closer to Dick's age probably for the sole reason to form a romantic bond between the two.

I assume some writers meant to push some type of nostalgia between Dick and Barbara when he calls her Batgirl the same way Barbara can sometimes call him Boy Wonder. Regardless, that should be left as more of a nostalgic nickname between the two and not serious forms of addressing each other—at least, now that they've both been well into their adult years since the 80s (and a bit earlier for Barbara depending on what comic run you're pulling from).

I agree that characters like Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Cass aren't allowed to mature past their lives as kids/teenagers. Writers of DC LOVE keeping these poor characters stuck with their pasts. Its just overused and annoying at this point. I understand that some do it for every new generation of fans but let me just say, with the internet that's really not necessary. Stop assuming your audience has brains 2/3 sedimentary. If other forms of graphic novels (such as manga) can write compelling stories without having to retell the characters past in a 'fun new and exciting way' than so can comics.

As for Barbara, she deserves to be a part of the "Batfamily" but more importantly she deserves to be acknowledged as the leader of the BoP and treated so that the BoP team is her true priority. Oracle shouldn't be strictly attached to the Batfamily to be important. Barbara is so much more than that.

YESS!! To the Pranking each other anon. Anytime I see a fandom post where one of the Batboys messes with the others and then something along the lines of "Of course they leave Cass out cause shes perfect/she too badass" its how I know they either don't have siblings, don't have sisters, or have never gotten beat up by a sibling stronger than you and STILL continue to clown them. Do y'all know what siblings are actually like? It doesn't matter whose stronger or any of that. Can you be pranked? Can you be clowned upon? Then it will happen. Stop Chuck Norrising characters. It gives Gary Stu/Mary Sue type of shit.

I have sisters who can and will defenestrate me and I still can, will and do clown upon them.

Its siblinghood.

A lot of fandom doesn't want to include Cass in those type of headcanons because some stans complain that Cass would never fall for this stuff because they equate body language with mind reading 🤷🏽‍♀️. My sister (Selene she's another mod and the sister who can and will defenestrate me) gets upset anytime people forget that Body reading isn't an infallible technique. Deathstroke and even J*ker showed that.

My sister started to love Cass because we both could relate to being denied language for a core part of our childhood. I used to be wary about messing with her but its something that I and the rest of my siblings do to each other because its fun, its a way to hang out and its just hilarious to mess with one another. Why leave her out of that? She was so STUNNED the first time we pranked her. I still remember her face. I love the idea of Cass also being included in that type of silly stuff.

I also see Dick Jason Barbara being part of the older age group with Tim Steph and Cass being younger. I don’t care what issue in the 2000s said, that’s how I’ve always seen them and I’m going more so with their publication order and history.

Funnily enough, I once met one of the writers of that comic where Bruce takes Cass to see Jason's grave and they said it was a mistake on their part saying Jason would've been 18 that day😭. Obviously, comics are always changing so they didn't think it was a big deal and in most cases it really isn't.

-Jen

I wish that she would get more of the Barbara who is independent, has her own value system, is more focused on the Birds of Prey rather than Batman and Co. and isn't inherently linked to Nightwing/Dick Grayson.

I so agree with this comment! Barbara Gordon used to be my favorite character and I find it so hard to love her now. I have given up caring about her character and don’t think she will ever be the Barbara I once loved. I wanted so desperately for people to take her seriously as her own character but that is not going to happen now or maybe ever, to which I’m now okay with her being linked to Dick in everything. She died as a character for me. Her constantly being linked to Dick is what put the nail in the coffin and gave me the push to officially let her go.

She shouldn't be linked to one character. It even goes against when she stopped being Batgirl before being shot. She did that because she outgrew what Batgirl's "role" was. She wanted to make change a different way and she was doing that! Thats why Barbara is so cool and thats the version I know and love.

I dislike that she became Batgirl again. Why get rid of her disability? Why get rid of her maturity as a character? The Killing Joke wasn't a perfect comic by any means but it gave us a character who became her own strength and showed us that trauma isn't our end. She showed us how to be a leader through the Birds of Prey.

This is so silly but I can genuinely only like characters who have gotten themselves embarrassed or have been just straight up clowned by others (I dont mean that in a fighting way btw or you know, in a Joker way). I feel like without that, they're just too sterile and less interesting. Like I like characters who have been made fools of for a reason. For example, Lady Shiva. I already liked her, but I really started liking her when I realized where she couldnt be physically beat by physical skill alone, she could be physically beat by being outsmarted. Like that time Talia knocked her ass out by tricking her. That shit was good (Im not taking into context the WHOLE comic thats from btw. Some of it was mid or worse) because it showed that even someone as badass and OP as Sandra could be beat by tricks. Thats the class A type of clownery Im here for. Speaking of Shiva, I want to see Cass clowned on. Not in a fight way (Shiva does that to her plenty lmao) but in a prank way. Let one of those losers she calls brothers murk her ass in a prank. Show me a good sister brother relationship I beg. I have several brothers and sisters and I have two siblings who are so much like Cass (we cant sneak up or beat those fools at wrestling/mma for shit its highkey embarrassing for the rest of us ngl) BUT that doesn't stop us from absolutely planning out dumb pranks to make fun of them. I want family dynamics where everyone gets the clown card (once again NOT THE JOKER FUCK HIM AND HIS GOOFY ASS) at least a couple of times.

You know what? Yes. Everyone deserves to get clowned on. You don't end up with four brothers as a sister and not get clowned on no matter how well you will beat their ass (My brothers do not care. They will risk their skins to mess with me knowing damn well i WILL clap their necks).

I wonder what a prank on Cass might look like to other fans :D. Any ideas anyone?

-Selene