people are saying he « led her on » because he did. the fact that he kissed her in the first episode set the tone for the rest of the season and if you can’t perceive the flirting I’m sorry but how?? he didn’t make anything clear he sent the craziest mixed signals in the world. there’s nothing revolutionary about claiming that Martha was being pushy toward someone who was clearly not interested it’s 1) weird to claim in what it suggests about her 2) factually not true.
I wasn’t gonna respond to this at first because the top half of this ask is pretty much just individual interpretation and I don’t really care about it. Like, no, to me, the Doctor doesn’t seem especially flirty towards Martha. He’s just sort of Like That. That’s his damage, you know, Mr. I need to traumadump on anyone who tolerates being around me for more than five minutes. Mr. If I don’t develop an intensely codependent emotional bond with the companion I have currently I’ll die. It doesn’t read to me as him trying to lead her on because that bit’s honest, and he does it with damn near every companion he’s ever had.
And if nothing else, because we do see Ten when he tries to flirt intentionally and he’s a fuckin dork about it. Kind of guy who looked up romance in the dictionary and took notes. Kinda guy who draws diagrams to maximize kissing potential. It would have been obvious even to me (<- romance-blind as all fuck) if he was flirting with Martha on purpose because he’s not smooth at all; he flirts like he’s gotten lines in a play and he’s super excited to be the main star.
But anyway, as I was saying, that’s just how I see it. And if you see it different, no skin off my back, I just disagree.
But I take umbrage with you putting words in my mouth. I never said Martha was pushy towards him. Because yeah, she’s not. If I implied that she was, then it was a result of poor phrasing on my part. Martha’s not at fault for what she feels, for wanting there to come something of it. No more at fault than the Doctor is for not returning those feelings. It’s a bit weird that you’re assuming that I think one of them has to be the bad guy here when that was the opposite of what I was saying. My point was: When it comes to their romantic subtext of their relationship, it’s weird to pretend like either of them are to blame for them not being in a relationship at the end of s3, and even weirder to assert that as part of why Martha supposedly wouldn’t like the Doctor afterwards when they’re. friends. they continue to be friends into s4.
Martha’s not pushy. She has a crush on her friend. It happens. He doesn’t return it. This also happens. Both of these facts are pushed to the extreme because he’s a time-traveling alien with poor emotional skills and she’s put herself in the position of needing to help him from minute one of meeting each other. That’s why it’s fun to watch, because the Doctor is both so open and so unavailable in turns, because Martha’s feelings for him grow and change as she knows more about her Doctor until she decides to step back.
I don’t know, man. You seem to be coming at this as if one of them has to be The Problem™️. I don’t think either of them is, not so definitively. I think boiling their relationship down to that is reductive and an insult to the way they both grow over s3, to Martha’s choice to continue to be his friend while also establishing her own boundaries, to the fact that the Doctor is able to let her go without immediately trying to kill himself afterwards when she’s not there to catch him.
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Sometimes I think Dan and Phil are totally platonic besties and then other times I’m convinced they fuck on the daily. I think they do it on purpose and it’s honestly iconic.
kind of the best thing is that they are that and everything in between. you can tell they just like being around each other. they've made content together for 15 years and the large majority of it was done in the strictly platonic sense for their audience. and they were still having so much fun with it. we're in the 'we know you know' era now so we get to see flashes of different dynamics they have, but they absolutely have more we Don't get to see bc they're not for us.
they like each other. stupidly fond of each other. spending time together doesn't feel exhausting. they're best friends and each others' harshest critics while being the biggest hypeman and also safe space.
dnp's relationship with us, their audience, always has been and always will be different than any other content creators. part of it is how they accumulated it, but another part is just the massive history we have with them. they Get us. they Know us. they're silly goofy sarcastic guys who love us and hate us sometimes. theyre grateful but careful too. they like to rile us up, just like they do each other. it's a love language, teasing, and we've shown positive responses to it over the years. i like to say that my relationship with dnp is antagonistic sometimes--cause i know they're pushing my buttons on purpose. and ykw? it's fun! it's fun for us and it's fun for them because they have the control. i know anything they let out is cause they chose to let it out because they Know how we are. so yes they absolutely adore messing with us. we're a funny bunch.
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accepting the apology and not forgiving is great but I think that people should also just not accept the apology, whether it's because you just don't feel good still, whether the person is truly sorry or not, because it doesn't matter what they say, what's done is done and in the end you have been hurt by them
even if you're being polite or nice to them, you don't have to accept the apology just as you don't have to give them forgiveness, they're two sides of the same coin and you should never feel like you're bad or mean for still not liking them after they hurt you
and not only that, even if what they did was unintentional, it doesn't matter what they actually wanted to do or what the intended outcome was, because it's already been done and this is the outcome whether they wanted it or not, and even if they've done something nice for you, even if they're better to you, there is nothing that you have to give them unless you feel like it
nothing at all
until you're ready, if you ever will be
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Thank you for posting all those gifs of Mobius being kind and supportive together. I've seen some takes about Mobius deserving it, but logically it doesn't make sense. He's already doing everything he can to save the timelines. He doesn't want to know his past, nor does he need to know to be motivated to save the timeliness, because he's already been doing since ep 1. Even if we make the argument he has no real free will until he sees his past, this argument is disingenuous because he's using his free will NOT to see it. From a narrative and character development standpoint, he will be forced to see it for the audience's entertainment, because he is a fictional character with no free will-- the screenwriters are the gods (Time Authors, if you will).
In-narrative, you could make a case he should see his timeline if he were actively trying to keep the TVA the way it was, but that's not the case with him. Sylvie's accusations this fall flat.
Mind, I'm not against Sylvie's proposition to start from scratch. Revolutions are important and serve that function. But the TVA is the only organization with people who know how the Loom and timespace work. It's not unreasonable for them to try to stabilize the situation, save the lives of as many timeliness as they can, and consider dismantling the TVA entirely and starting from scratch later.
Since we're dealing with time paradoxes, it's possible that the collapse of the Loom is what causes Loki to recruit Mobius, B-15, and Casey (I'm not sure what kind of entity OB is?) from their timelines. If they all accept, then Loki was the original creator of the Heart of the TVA. It's possible HWR took over at some point in the future and wiped everyone's memories then. The future influenced the past, thus closing the time loop. If this is the case, then Sylvie also contributed to the creation of the TVA, because killing HWR triggered the destruction of the Loom, which will force Loki to recruit, which will create the TVA, which will monitor the multiverse, which at some point will be taken over by HWR to create the Sacred Timeline, which become the multiverse one again after Sylvie kills him, which will destroy the Loom, which will cause Loki to recruit.
Of course!!! Always a delight to and on that note we're truly seeing eye to eye on every single point you raised so thank you for such an amazing ask! Exactly the conversation I was craving after making those gifs just to get some things off my chest about how Mobius gets treated since as you said, he's already been doing everything possible to protect the timelines while clearly under incomprehensible pressure yet has never hesitated to evaluate and change his worldview accordingly to better serve the whole.
Honestly confused by those insisting he HAS to see his past and is in the wrong for not having done so because isn't that up to him?? Doesn't matter what his reasons are, he's entitled to his choices and I can honestly say without hesitation if I were in his shoes my decision would be the same. He enjoys his job, he's incredibly good at the work (people seem to forget he's facilitated the progression of basically every plot point), and has recently built more connections he appreciates and wants to grow than in the entirety of his life combined so why is he not allowed to make a single decision in his own interest when neither his approach to changing the TVA nor any other person is being impacted? But you're exactly right about how regardless he'll be made to have the experience anyway and while I'd be perfectly happy with that never happening I accept the advancement of narrative as a given and can only hope whatever cards he's dealt are ones that only bring him peace of mind about the work he's done so far and in the future.
(adding a read more here because I've got a feeling this is gonna be a long one, lol)
Have also seen many people saying Sylvie blowing up at Mobius was necessary or that he needed to hear it but that logic is completely missed on me? For example Ravonna did the same but considering the amount of history between them her reaction is fully understandable even if I don't agree with the points she made about his compassion being a weakness. Mentioned this to a friend earlier but I truly wish it had been some random character besides Sylvie who yelled at him simply because she doesn't have the kind of personal connection to make judgements and because I don't want any ship war elements at play or anything when my take is solely based around wanting Mobius to be recognized as someone who has been good and kind from the start? Watching him be put down for that as if it's fact in basically every episode is getting exhausting 😔
To that point I also agree with the importance and necessity of revolution but not sure starting from scratch is necessary when the TVA does have a solid base and plenty of people willing to stay and help the cause? In reality there's no time for anyone there to stay currently focused on anything but stabilizing the situation when the alternative is the end of every timeline, burning things to the ground only really counts if there's any ground left to build on which is yet another reason Mobius and the others switched to preservation. For example, O.B's quip about Sylvie ruining his life by killing He Who Remains was complete fact and while I don't have any hate towards her character at all and certainly don't want any mirrored scene of someone yelling at her, etc, it's driving me crazy how she refuses to admit they've actively been saving lives and scrambling to accommodate these unexpected branches while she was at a MCDONALD'S.
My ep 5-6 theory matches yours regarding about the collapse of the Loom being the cause of Mobius, B-15, and Casey ending up at the TVA because their Nexus event technically isn't one, it's them choosing to leave with Loki of their own free will and the good of existence. I'm also not sure if O.B. was ever a variant so he could possibly be the key to figuring out where Loki can find everyone's original self? Psyched to learn more about him and how he ended up in such a vital position! Hundred percent think the series is ending with Loki as the founder and probable ruler of the TVA but can't quite figure out where the switch to He Who Remains entering the picture fits in, and your point about Sylvie also contributing to the creation of the TVA in an infinite loop is a fascinating one that's going to leave me thinking for a long while so thanks for that as well and of everything I have to admit the possibility of Loki and Mobius being their own ouroboros in creating just the right person to intrigue and change themselves into who they always wanted to be has been giving me life, them as timekeepers along with B-15 has been my hope since the first episode of season 2 and is probably the most incredible place I could imagine leaving everyone if we don't get another season.
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