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littlesparklight · 6 months

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Some thoughts and comparisons about Achilles, Troilus - and Polydoros.

Some basics first: In the Iliad, Polydoros - here still Priam's youngest son, but of Laothoe, making him Lykaon's full brother - dies during Achilles' rampage after he's gotten his new armour. Troilus, always the son of Hecuba but either the son of Priam or Apollo otherwise, insofar as we have any indication of when he dies, probably dies early/ier in the way. He's not at all attached to the death of Patroklos or Achilles' reaction to that event.

So, potentially you have one of the youngest sons of the Trojan royal family dying one in the beginning, and one at the end.

Again, in the Iliad, Troilus is described as "hippocharmes" - that is a chariot fighter, basically. The implication is that he is old enough to participate in battle. Polydoros, however, isn't just Priam's youngest son, but young enough his parents didn't want him on the battlefield and he sneaks out onto it that one day when it's the most dangerous to have done so.

However, basically all of our surviving material until very late portrays Troilus not as a warrior, but as a child. Pre-teen at best, murdered, and not on the battlefield, potentially armed, but as fleeing, unarmed, into Apollo's/his father's temple. Troilus' murder is the murder of a child, and a gruesomely violent one at that, with additional mutilation of the corpse. The only potential reason given is that some few fragments of surviving sources imply Achilles was sexually interested in Troilus and was rejected.

Polydoros' death in the Iliad is the opposite of the passionate fury that hacking apart an unarmed, at most pre-teen child is. He's killed in passing, with no particular emotion or even note of the killing from Achilles himself. (Instead, the killing of Polydoros, who was basically playing, merely running between the warriors and showing off his speed, incites Hektor to his and Achilles' first and aborted confrontation.)

Considering Polydoros' age, and the pathos given to his parents wishing to keep him from the battlefield, one could think there would be more focus on his death in the text. But there isn't. Much like the human sacrifice of the twelve Trojan youths on Patroklos' funeral pyre is passed on exceedingly lightly, as if those twelve humans were nothing but a few more animals that Achilles have already sacrificed on the pyre, Polydoros' death is passed over extremely quickly.

The Iliad works hard to soften some of Achilles' most gruesome actions in his grief-fuelled rage. It's too much for this text, for its "hero", even when the Iliad lets him do these things. That stands in sharp contrast to the violent death this other young son of Priam gets by the hands of Achilles. A death some scholars think is implied behind Priam calling Achilles' hands "child-killing", despite the earlier attempt in the text at smoothing out Troilus' death into a battle-field one of a warrior old enough to be there.

Polydoros might as well be Troilus' shadow/double in a way, their deaths diametrically opposed in nature and point of time in the war but connected by the killer and their similar ages.

#greek myth thoughts #the iliad #trojan war #troilus #achilles #polydorus

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generouskittentidalwave · 1 year

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What happened with Philoctetes being abandoned was used as a plot device for his character and future events and that's why I never use it to judge Odysseus's character. There, I said it.

The reason I say this? Is because back then the greeks came to an agreement that Philoctetes was left on the island of Lemnos after getting a snake bite, and that Odysseus convinced them to leave him behind.

However, despite all the research, I can never find exactly why Odysseus decided to leave him behind. Some imply that he didn't like all the cries from Philoctetes festering wound and left him behind, in others it's implied that he was forced to leave him behind by the others, others imply that it was a plan in order to find a way to get him back eventually, others imply that Odysseus saw him as a lost cause, that he would weigh them down, etc.. It seems like no one could agree on one thing or a reason why, just that it happened and that was basically it. They weren't really focused on giving Odysseus an in depth reasoning, just that he decided to leave Lemnos behind and that story would be a suprise tool that would help them later.

We may never know Odysseus's true thought process or reasonings as to why, as it is all left to be implied and seeing as there are many versions of Odysseus throughout both greek and modern history combined with the fact that there wasn't a universally agreed upon reasoning for it, I never use it to judge Odysseus's character as it feels impossible to do so.

For me personally, if I had to take an educated guess on his thought process seeing as we don't really know what it was, Odysseus doesn't seem like the kind of guy to just go- "hah, rotting foot? Must be a skill issue lmao" before then just dipping but I don't think he would just blindly be like "Nuuuh my friendo, my bestie has an ouchy we can't leave him behind like this!" Either. Odysseus's is a very complicated man, but was neither saint nor monster either, rather being the inbetween, and that was shown a lot in stories. So I wholeheartedly feel like it probably was the same situation with what happened with the other situations like Iphigenia, Troilus, Polyxena, etc.. where the man either offhandely makes the suggestion or does the hard decisions himself for reasons either known or unknown.

That's atleast my thoughts on it, I know everyone has there own thoughts on it as well ^^ and I could be wrong but please don't beat me over the head if I am ^^", that's just what I think about it all

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happypeachsludgeflower · 1 year

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okay. so, in Troilus and Cressida Act 2, Scene 1, while being beaten by Ajax, Thersites is cursing Patroclus and Achilles out and says, “I will hold my peace when Achilles' brooch bids me, shall I?”

now, I just kinda assumed that was the equivalent of calling Patroclus Achilles’ bitch and implying that they’re fucking. which, fair. they totally were. and it makes sense in context with Thersites personality.

but I’m scrolling through the wikipedia article reading the summary of the play for Reasons ™ right?

and omg 😆 it says the definition of ‘brooch’ during the 16th century basically meant a “pointed rod, spit, or pricker” which jjfkjckska

I’m pretty sure Thersites called Patroclus Achilles top guys

#I mean we already knew that but that’s just hysterical #apparently the entire camp Knew #not just that they were lovers #they knew who was topping #Troilus and Cressida #shakespeare #William Shakespeare #Patroclus x Achilles #Patroclus #achilles #achilles x patroclus #patrochilles #Trojan war #Greek mythology #Greek myth #greek myths

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lastromanticist · 11 months

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Why does my city burn

A Lament for Trojans based on my thoughts on the crimes committed by Acheans during the trojan war written from the perspective of Troilus plotting revenge

Why oh Achillies must me and my brothers die

Your love and rage no greater than mine

Yet you claim justice

Beneath the gods eyes

Why oh achillies must my family burn

So poets can exalt your valour in turn

My father weeps, my mother cries

Paris attends to his lover though he has mournful eyes

I oh achillies wish you dead

What could that lover of yours matter more than hectors death

Why oh acheans do you reject the love helen holds for paris

His judgement is fair , proven right by Mars

Yet you acheans assault our city

Our only respite could be the stars

I despise you, oh achilles , I will slay you

Lacking chivalry , lacking tact

Elysium may welcome you but history shall remember this fact

You are a villain

Your crimes, oh achillies number more than any other

Memnon , Penthesilia, and Hector all greater than thee

I will weigh your scales and ferry your death

This is why oh achillies I hate you

#achillies #greek myth retellings #mythology #trojan war #troilus my poor boy why #medieval #poetry #lyrical

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lavenite · 11 months

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back to reading troilus and cressida again. this time chaucers poem. i cannot comprehend how anyone looks at cressida and think. oh yea, she sucks and shes a totally unfaithful lover - SHE DIDNT EVEN LIKE TROILUS??? HER UNCLE CAME IN AND SAID IF YOU DONT LOVE THIS MAN HES KILLING HIMSELF AND THEN IM ALSO KILLING MYSELF IN FRONT OF YOU. and then she gets scared and says shell think about it. incomprehensible

#t+c #i read that this is the most sympathetic read of cressida and i am very frightened to read other version TBH…#my girl doesnr even have any historical or ancient backing. she was an off branch of brieses the medievals made just to demonize her #men when theyre so misogynistic that they have to create a woman and insert her in their totally not christian biased trojan poem to be evil #and a cheater who makes poor troilus sad by rejecting his love :(#you know i hate ‘feminist’ retellings of greek myths. bc they all fucking suck and dont understand the source material. i think this one can #slide. ans by slide i mean IM going to write it so of course its going to be good

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macbooth · 11 months

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Cassandra: My body is a temple. I mean, it's a temple from Legend of Zelda so it is bizarre, dangerous, falling apart and controlled by a horrible monster. But that's still a temple.

#shakespeare #shakespeare memes #incorrect shakespeare #incorrect quotes #troilus and cressida #cassandra #technically also a greek myth incorrect quote

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apollosgiftofprophecy · 7 months

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Statistics of Apollo's Lovers

I was wondering just how unfortunate of a love-life our boy Apollo had, so - as one does - I did the research, math, and writing of said love-life.

such is the life of an adhd teen :)

In total, there are 59 people on this list. I have them separated into eight groups; Immortal, Immortal & Rejected, Lived, Died, Rejected & Died, Rejected & Cursed, Rejected & Lived, and who were Rejected by Apollo

Disclaimer: I am not a historian nor an expert in Greek Mythology, I am just a very invested nerd in Mythology, and in Apollo's mythology in general, and got curious about what his rap sheet actually looks like.

Sidenote: There will be some "lovers" not on this list. Reasons being;

No actual literary sources behind them

Said literary sources are dubious at best

Not enough information is given about the nature of their relationship to make an accurate take

So if somebody isn't on this list, it's because of one of those three reasons. Although there is still a chance I missed somebody! :)

Also, no RRverse lovers include in this list. Sorry my fellow ToA fans.

(Edited 04/29/24 - Currently adding in sources/references/expanding on the myths themselves. bare with me lol)

Let's begin! :D

Immortal Lovers

Calliope: muse of epic poetry. Mother of Hymenaios and Ialemus by Apollo.

Clio: muse of history

Erato: muse of love poetry

Euterpe: muse of music

Polyhymnia: muse of hymns/sacred poetry

Melpomene: muse of tragedy

Thalia: muse of comedy. Mother of the Corybantes by Apollo.

Terpsichore: muse of dance

Urania: muse of astronomy

Boreas: the North Wind. yes Apollo dated the North Wind. Who knew? It's mentioned in the Argonautica by the Boreads - they call Apollo "beloved of our sire" so...hmm. wonder what happened there because that's all we get.

10 lovers total here.

9 Female, 1 Male

Immortal & Rejected

Hestia: goddess of the Hearth

1 Interest. Female.

Lovers Who Lived:

Branchus: mortal shepherd, gifted prophecy

Rhoeo: mortal princess, eventually married an apprentice of Apollo

Ourea: demigod daughter of Poseidon, dated Apollo during his punishment with Laomedon; had a son named after the city of Troy

Evadne: nymph daughter of Poseidon, Apollo sent Eileithyia & (in some texts) the Fates to aid in their son's birth

Thero: great-granddaughter of Heracles, described as "beautiful as moonbeams"

Cyrene: mortal princess-turned-nymph queen, kick-ass lion wrangler, and mother of two of Apollo's sons - Aristaeus (a god) and Idmon (powerful seer)

Admetus: mortal king, took great care of Apollo during his second punishment, Apollo wingmanned him for Alcestis's hand - basically Apollo doted on him <3

Hecuba: queen of Troy, together they had Troilus.

It was foretold that if Troilus lived to adulthood, Troy wouldn't fall - unfortunately, Achilles murdered Troilus in Apollo's temple. When the Achaeans burned Troy down, Apollo rescued Hecuba and brought her to safety in Lycia.

Hyrie/Thyrie: mortal. mothered a son by Apollo. Their son, Cycnus, attempted to kill himself after some shenanigans and his mother attempted the same. Apollo turned them into swans to save their lives.

Dryope: mortal. had a son named Amphissus with Apollo, who was a snake at the time. Later turned into a lotus flower, but it had nothing to do with Apollo so she's still on this list. (noncon; written by Ovid in Metamorphoses)

Creusa: mortal queen. had a son named Ion with Apollo. Please check out @my-name-is-apollo's post for more details because they make some good points about what's considered "rape" in Ancient Greece.

Melia: Oceanid nymph. Had a son w/h Apollo named Tenerus. will expand on her in a bit

Iapis: a favorite lover. Apollo wanted to teach him prophecy, the lyre, ect. but Iapis just wanted to heal :) so Apollo taught him healing :)

Aethusa: daughter of Poseidon & the Pleiad Alcyone. Mother of Linus and Eleuther. She is the great-great grandmother of Orpheus.

Acacallis: daughter of King Minos. there's a lot of variation on whether or not she had kids with Hermes or Apollo. Some say she had a kid with each.

Chrysothemis: nymph queen who won the oldest contest of the Pythian Games - the singing of a hymn to Apollo. She had three daughters, and one of them is said to be Apollo's.

Corycia: naiad. had a son with Apollo. the Corycian Cave north of Delphi is named after her

Leuconoe (also Choine or Philonis): daughter of Eosphorus, god of the planet Venus, and mother of the bard Philammon.

Melaena (also Thyia or Kelaino): mother of Delphos, member of prophetic Thriae of Delphi. Priestess of Dionysus.

Othreis: mothered Phager by Apollo, and later Meliteus by Zeus.

Stilbe: mother of Lapithus and Aineus by Apollo.

Syllis (possible same as Hyllis, granddaughter of Heracles): mothered Zeuxippus by Apollo.

Amphissa: Apollo seduced her in the form of a shepherd. They had a son named Agreus.

Aria (or Deione): had a son named Miletus. Hid him in some smilax. Her father found him and named him.

Arsinoe: she and Apollo had a daughter named Eriopis.

Queen of Orkhomenos (no name is given): Mother of Trophonius (my fellow ToA fans will recognize that name haha).

Hypermnestra: Either Apollo or her husband fathered her son Amphiaraus. (sidenote: @literallyjusttoa suggested that Apollo was dating both Hypermnestra and Oikles, and I, personally, accept that headcannon)

Manto: Daughter of Tiresias. Apollo made her a priestess of Delphi. They had a son named Mopsus. When Apollo sent her to found an oracle elsewhere, he told her to marry the first man she saw outside of Delphi. That man turned out to be Rhacius, who brought her to Claros, where she founded the oracle of Apollo Clarios. Later, another man named Lampus attempted to assult her, but was killed by Apollo. She is also said to be a priestess who warned Niobe not to insult Leto, and to ask for forgiveness. Niobe did not.

Parthenope: granddaughter of a river god. Mothered Lycomedes by Apollo

Phthia: prophetess. called "beloved of Apollo". Mother three kings by him; Dorus, Laodocus, & Polypoetes

Procleia: Mother of Tenes, son of Apollo, who was killed by Achilles before the Trojan War. Daughter of King Laomedon, king of Troy.

Helenus: prince of Troy. Received from Apollo an ivory bow which he used to wound Achilles in the hand.

Hippolytus of Sicyon: called "beloved of Apollo" in Plutarch Life of Numa. I don't think this guy is the same as the Hippolytus, son of Zeuxippus (son of Apollo), king of Sicyon Pausanias talks about in his Description of Greece. That would be a little weird taking the whole family tree into account - though it's never stopped Zeus before, I guess.

Psamathe: nereid, said to be the personification of the sand of the sea-shore. There are two versions of her myths, both very different, but I'll only explain the one that explicitly states her and Apollo's relationship, which is by Conon's Narrationes. She and Apollo were lovers, but never had any kids. When another man assaulted her, she had a son and abandoned him. (He was found by some shepherds dw - wait, he was then torn apart by dogs. Nevermind.). Back to her, her father ordered for her to be executed and Apollo avenged her death by sending a plague onto Argos and refused to stop it until Psamathe and Linus (her son) were properly given honors.

(I really like how even though Linus isn't Apollo's kid, and that Psamathe wanted nothing to do with the kid, Apollo still considered him worth avenging too <3 )

(also would like to say that I found her on another's wiki page and that page said she was raped by Apollo - this just proves that you shouldn't take the wiki at face value because as shown above, that is not what happened.)

Alright. 34 lovers here.

5 Male. 29 Female.

33 are 100% consensual. Creusa is questionable, depending on who's translating.

The last one is Melia, who I will expand upon here.

Melia was said to be kidnapped, and her brother found her with Apollo. He set fire to Apollo's temple in an effort to get her back, but was killed. Melia and Apollo had two kids - but here's the interesting part. Melia was highly worshiped in Thebes, where her brother found her. She was an incredibly important figure in Thebes, especially when connected with Apollo. She and Apollo were essentially the parents of Thebes.

As I read over their story, it sounded like (to me, at least. it's okay if you think otherwise!) that Melia just absconded/eloped with Apollo.

Was kidnapping an equivalent to assault back then? Perhaps. But it's still debated on whenever or not that's true. However, one thing I've noticed reading up on these myths is that when Apollo does do something unsavory, the text says so.

It never says anything about Apollo doing anything to Melia. Her father and brother believe she was kidnapped, but, like mentioned previously, it seems far much more likely that she just ran off with her boyfriend or something.

But that's just my interpretation.

Moving on! :)

Lovers Who Died:

Hyacinthus*: mortal prince. we all know this one, right? Right? one and only true love turned into flower

Cyparissus: mortal. his DEER DIED and he asked Apollo to let him MOURN FOREVER so he was turned into a cypress tree

Coronis: mortal princess. cheated on Apollo w/h another guy. mother of Asclepius. killed by Artemis.

Adonis: yes, THAT Adonis. he's in this category because. well. he died. rip

Phorbas: at first I was going to keep him off, till I went "hOLD UP!". Listen, this guy's story is contradictory in Hyginus's De Astronomica - he's a rival of Apollo, then all of a sudden his (dead) lover. My first reaction was the above, then it was "OH MY GODS CANON ENEMIES TO LOVERS??? WITH DEATH???"

There's also a second account of Phorbas - he ended a plague on an island and became Apollo's lover that way, and when he died, Zeus turned him into a constellation - Ophiuchus.

(*In some texts, Hyacinthus was resurrected.)

6 lovers.

5 Male. 1 Female. All consensual.

Sidenote: QUIT BURYING THE GAYS GREECE!!!!

Love-Interests Who Rejected & Died:

Daphne: do i nEED to say anything? Nymph. turned into tree to escape.

Castalia*: Nymph. turned into spring to escape.

2 Interests. 1 debatable.

2 Female.

(*Castalia's myth was written in 400 AD, VERY late in the myth cycle, and was strictly ROMAN. In every other case, the Castalian spring was already at Delphi before Apollo was born.)

Love-Interests Who Rejected & Cursed

Cassandra: mortal princess. Promised to date Apollo if she was given gift of prophecy. when he did, she rejected him and he cursed her to never be believed for her visions.

1 Interests.

1 Female.

Lover-Interests Who Rejected & Lived

Sinope: mortal. got Apollo to promise her anything; requested to remain a virgin. he obliged.

Marpessa: mortal princess, granddaughter of Ares. Idas, son of Poseidon, kidnapped her and Apollo caught up to them. Zeus had Marpessa chose between them, and she chose Idas, reasoning that she would eventually grow old and Apollo would tire of her.

Bolina: mortal. Apollo approached her and she flung herself off a cliff. He turned her into a nymph to save her life. Nothing happened between them, although some texts may say that she eventually dated him.

Ocroe/Okyrrhoe: nymph and daughter of a river god. asked a boatman to take her home after Apollo approached her. Apollo ended up turning the boat to stone and the seafarer into a fish.

Sibyl of Cumean: mortal seer. promised to date Apollo if she was given longevity as long as the amount of sand in her hand. he did, but she refused him.

5 Interests. All female.

Okyrrhoe's story is the only one with any iffy stuff, although, like stated in previous sections, when something iffy does occur, the text usually says so outright.

Rejected by Apollo:

Clytie*: Oceanid nymph. turned into a heliotrope to gaze at the sun forever after the rejection.

1 Advance. Female.

(*Clytie's story was originally about her affection for Helios. When Apollo got conflated with him, her story also changed.)

In Conclusion...

59 people total (includes Castalia & Clytie)

48 Women (81%). 11 Men (19%).

19% were Immortal (Including Lovers & Rejected)

66% Lived (Including Lovers & Rejected)

14% Died (Including Lovers & Rejected)

1% were Cursed

2% were Rejected by him

57 people total (Not including Castalia & Clytie)

46 Women (82%). 11 Men (18%).

18% were Immortal

68% Lived (Lovers & Rejected)

12% Died (Lovers & Rejected)

in that 12%, one was apotheosized - Hyacinthus.

Meaning 10% died permanently, while 2% were resurrected.

2% were Cursed

0% were Rejected by him

Additionally, I left off three male lovers and two female lovers - Atymnius, Leucates, Cinyras, Hecate, & Acantha.

Atymnius has no references to being Apollo's lover, only to Zeus's son Sarpedon.

Leucates is another male "lover" left off the rack - apparently he jumped off a cliff to avoid Apollo, but I couldn't find any mythological text to account for it. There is a cliff named similarly to him where Aphrodite went (by Apollo's advice) to rid herself of her longing for Adonis after his death. Also Zeus uses it to rid himself of his love for Hera before he cheats on her again.

Cinyras was a priest of Aphrodite on the island of Cyprus. He was also the island's king. Pindar calls him "beloved of Apollo" in his Pythian Ode. However, looking further into Cinyras's life throws a bit of a wrench into it. He's also cited to be a challenger to Apollo's skill, and either Apollo or Mars (Ares) kills him for his hubris.

(honestly, I kinda like the idea that Mars went into Big Brother Mode)

I did consider leaving him on the list, since technically you could argue it was a romance-gone-bad, but among every other source Cinyras is mentioned in, Pindar's the only one who puts a romantic label on him and Apollo.

Hecate, the goddess of magic and crossroads, is said to be the mother of Scylla (like, the sea-monster) by Apollo, but Scylla's parentage is one of those "no specific parents" ones, so I left her off the list.

Acantha has absolutely no classical references. There's a plant like her name, but she's made-up, so she doesn't count.

(Of course, I could be wrong about any of these. Again, I'm not an expert.)

With all this in mind, this means Apollo's love life actually isn't as tragic as media portrays it, and he isn't as bad as Zeus or Poseidon in the nonconsensual area.

Does he still have those kinds of myths? Yes, with Dryope & Creusa, though Creusa we could discount because;

1) Depends on who's translating it; and

2) Euripides (the guy who wrote the play Ion) contradicts himself on Ion's parentage in another play, and honestly Apollo's characterization in Ion just doesn't quite match up with the rest of his appearances in the wider myths (in my opinion, at least - feel free to ask why)

So that leaves us with just Dryope, who comes from Ovid. Now I'm not saying we should throw her out because of Ovid's whole "wrote the gods even more terribly to criticize Augustus" thing, but it is something to keep in mind.

So overall, I'd say Apollo has a rather clean relationship past. It is far better than Zeus or Poseidon's for one, and he is miles ahead of Hermes and Dionysus.

He's doing pretty damn good.

#ramblings of an oracle #greek mythology analysis #apollo #greek myths #greek gods #greek myth #ancient greece #still gonna tag this as toa #just because #;)#the trials of apollo #toa #trials of apollo

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johaerys-writes · 2 months

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Hi! I’m pretty new to the world of Achilles and Patroclus (I read The Song Of Achilles last month) and I just saw your post about your love for them. When you said “there's just so much stuff out there about them (tsoa, hades game, the iliad, a bunch of other myths and adaptations, non fiction books, academic papers etc)” I was wondering if you could touch on the other myths and adaptations part maybe? I’m not exactly sure where to begin there but I would appreciate any guidance you could give!

Oh boy I don't know where to start either because there's a LOT. I don't want to overwhelm you so I'll just list a few key myths and adaptations off the top of my head:

Adaptations

So as far as adaptations go, I will include works where both Achilles and Patroclus show up and that are inspired by the Iliad.

Hades Game: I'm pretty sure you're already familiar with this, just mentioning it just in case!

Aristos the musical: it's a musical as the name suggests, and it revolves around Achilles and Patroclus' lives from Pelion all the way to Troy. It's really lovely and has made me emotional on numerous occasions and I love revisiting it every so often! It also has a Tumblr account: @aristosmusical

Troilus and Cressida: this is Shakespeare's take on the Trojan War and it's quite interesting, not really faithful to the Iliad but offers a sort of different perspective on the characters and the events that led to Hector's death.

Achilles (1995) by Barry JC Purves: it's a short stop motion film using clay puppets, it's on Youtube and it's only 11 mins and I think it's worth a watch! I find it very compelling visually and any adaptation where Achilles and Patroclus are lovers is a plus in my book 🫶

Holding Achilles: this is an Australian stage production by the Dead Puppet Society, I really enjoyed it and I found it an interesting blend of TSOA and Iliad Patrochilles, which also featured some cool new elements that I hadn't really seen before. It used to be free to watch for a while but now I think you have to pay to watch it, there's more info on their website.

The Silence of the Girls: a novel by Pat Barker, it's a take on the events of the Iliad mostly through Briseis' eyes, I personally didn't really like the book or the characterisations but hey both Achilles and Patroclus are in it so it might be worth a read.

There are some other novels I've heard of where Achilles and Patroclus appear (A Thousand Ships by Natalie Haynes, Wrath Goddess Sing by Maya Deane) and also a TV show called Troy: Fall of a City but I haven't read/watched them so I can't really rec them

Myths

Most myths revolve around Achilles, there aren't that many with Patroclus I'm afraid, but here are some of my favourites:

Achilleid by Publius Papinius Statius: this is an epic poem about Achilles' stay on Skyros disguised as a girl and his involvement with Deidameia. It's interesting but I'd personally take the characterisations and events in it with a grain of salt because Romans were notorious for their unsympathetic portrayal of Greek Homeric heroes but it's still a cool thing that's out there and free to read online.

Iphigenia at Aulis: a tragedy by the ancient Greek playwright Euripides, it's basically the dramatised version of the myth of Iphigenia's sacrifice in Aulis which predates the Iliad, there are many obscure versions of this myth but Euripides' sort of updated version is my favourite, I will never shut up about this play!! Lots of a nuance and very interesting portrayals of Achilles, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Clytemnestra, Iphigenia and pretty much everyone in there, well worth a read.

Lost plays: there are several plays in which Achilles appears but that have been lost or survive only in fragments, but two of my favourites are Euripides' Telephus and Aeschylus' Myrmidons. Telephus takes place before the Trojan War, while the Greeks are on their way to Troy. I really like Achilles' characterisation in the fragments that remain and also the fact that he was already renowned for his knowledge of medicine and healing despite how young he was. The fragments that survive from Aeschylus' Myrmidons I think are fewer but the play was extremely popular at the time it was presented to the public and it sparked a lot of controversy re: Achilles and Patroclus' relationship and who tops/bottoms so I think that's kind of funny lol.

There are lots of other obscure little myths about Achilles that I've picked up by reading various books, papers and wiki posts on the matter and that are just too numerous to list here, but what I will mention and that I think concludes the myths section of this post pretty neatly is that the Iliad and the Odyssey are not the only works about the Trojan War that were written, merely the only works that survived. The rest of the books in the Epic Cycle have been preserved either in fragmentary form or in descriptions in other works, and I think the Epic Cycle wiki page is a good place to start if you want to get an idea of what each of those books contained.

I hope this helped! 💙

#patrochilles #achilles #patroclus #the iliad #homer's iliad #if I remember anything else I'll probably add to this post but I think that should be enough for now #there's just! so much stuff!!#happy reading/viewing/listening 😁

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pelideswhore · 1 year

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Troilus: What does it mean to be an adult?

Hector: I think to be an adult you have to have experience in, um, adult things...

Apollo: Hey Hector, you and I have done lots of adult things together!

Hector:

Hector: Have we???

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barbiegirldream · 7 months

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where's my Song of Achilles anon at ! I read the book. liked some stuff didn't like other stuff. it was fanficition of a two thousand year old poem from a three thousand or more year old story. stuff gets silly. Odysseus was still my favorite he's always my guy. Anyway rest of my thoughts under the cut

I think I liked the perspective of Patroclus a really normal guy next to the warrior of the ages. One pov of a boy unsure of his place in the world surrounded by men older and claiming to be wiser and his godly boytoy.

this personally made me cackle. Patroclus is that oh my god get him some brown contacts please meme.

The myths were actually pretty good. I like how vague they were about Patroclus's mother there are like six different women in history claimed to be her it's really Patroclus's paternal ancestors that matter.

I think it's genuinely a major issue with the plot that Patroclus knew of the prophecy and still acted in accordance to Homeric Legend. I just think he should have found out right before but too late when they're in Troy already perhaps in an angry scorn from Thetis about he'll lose too.

Like you I also thought it was stupid as fuck how Patroclus was a totally useless twink. Didn't even know about legendary Myrmidons the fighting force named after his great grandfather mind you. The mythic ant stuff is literally his own family history.

Achilles being so nervous about the war only to fall into it so easily. Like a god finding their domain he was born for it. I really enjoyed the nitty gritty of war planning too. Him getting Achilles dressed the lips being the only part of him still soft. That was awesome why is that no quoted more. Achilles climbing onto Patroclus covered in blood like god that scene is going to be in my head on a loop. There is so much to it. Patroclus knowing him by scent and touch alone but what creature has come to wake him? Achilles so proud of what he's done seeing the revulsion in his lover who was so sure nothing Achilles could do would revolt him.

There could have for sure been so much more to a much more sensitive Patroclus being unable to love Achilles anymore and that's why Achilles stops fighting until Patroclus realizes he can't hold back his demigod lover from greatness. Taking the book in a radical direction but alas.

Brisies was very well done I appreciated her character a lot. I think it was a very good choice to expand on her mythos and remove a lot of the violence. People often read myths and go oh so he raped her when that's either not stated in the text/not needed to include other than their fetishes driving them.

ALSO so fucking annoying Patroclus doesn't die because he's no good at fighting he dies because Hector is Better. Hector is the sole reason the Acheans struggled. He was the Trojan Achilles idk how that point got turned into well Patroclus could barely hold a spear tee hee. Spending the whole book being like Patroclus can't fight ooh one of Achilles's generals is useless. To then be like jk as in accordance with the Iliad he's really good and killed a bunch of people is actually bad writing sorry. I did giggle at Apollo just fucking with him knocking him off the wall all pretty like just twirling his perfect hair.

Turning Troilus the son of Apollo who Achilles chased down tried to rape and then beheaded in the temple of Apollo leaving his mutilated body for his father to die and therefore the reason Apollo kills him into a random death cause the boy was an idiot. Like Troilus literally the Greek representation of losing a young son to unjust murder. Well okay then...

Thetis raising Achilles's son here is so perfect because that boy is rancid. He saw Agememnon and said I could do worse watch I'll go kill Hector's baby just for fun. And they really delivered on what a piece of fucking shit he was.

Thetis giving in, in the end was really good. Liked it

Overall I think the book was really good. I approached it from the knowledge this is taking thousands of years of myths and giving it to the perspective of a side character and I think it delivered.

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