Trigger warning

“What happened?” I got out, even though I wasn’t sure I truly wanted the answer. My memory was a dark blur of wild music.

Lucien drew back. “I don’t think you want to know.” I studied the few smudges on my waist, marks that looked like hands had held me.”

“I woke with vague shards of memories—of dancing between Rhysand’s legs”

“He had me dance until I was sick, and once I was done retching, told me to begin dancing again.”

“I spent my days sleeping off the faerie wine, dozing to escape the humiliation I endured.”

So, y’all telling me some people read this and thought “oh that’s hot.” “I’m gonna draw it.”

Really?

And then you call yourselves Feyre stans??

i feel as though the Gwyn ordeal within the fandom is giving the same as how some people are anti anything to do with the IC or Feysand (Feyre and/or Rhys) because of an unhealthy alcoholic Nesta’s opinion in the beginning of ACOSF and hear me out, the overt sexualization/self insert these “fans” have with Gwyn is giving the same as people only loving unhealthy Nesta because she is a self insert for all of the hatred they have for the series because in their minds it’s now “canon” these characters are “evil”, as though they don’t understand what morally grey means and same with Elain, she threatens specific people’s self insert with Azriel (or the others she’s associated with) the same way the Nesta stans have hatred for Feysand and Cassian because it threatens their “canon” of what Nesta is

(by over sexualization i mean shoving an traumatic SA survivor into BDSM fan art and completely ignoring how closed of and sheltered she still is by the end of the book because of her trauma and being re traumatized especially when she was in my opinion, anything but sexual in the book and rightfully so. in another way it’s feeling the same as people romanticizing Tamlin when he was physically abusing Fae Feyre to the point it would’ve killed Mortal her, they take a canonically traumatic thing and just rip the page of canon text in half while going “haha no, that’s not it silly” and then handing you essentially a fanfic as “proof” for their “theories”/their canon because that’s what it is- ‘their canon’ not Sarah’s. i just mean they’re taking Gwyn’s trauma away to have a character that wasn’t written into the story to serve their own needs as a reader instead of reading a different series the same way they took Feyre’s trauma away to go “awwww poor baby Tam-Tam” thusly taking the abuse he inflicted on Feyre out of him as a character to romanticize him. i don’t know if this made any sense, or if it was a decent comparison, my apologies. i just don’t feel like things would’ve gotten this bad if it was what is was, a crackship and nothing more because maybe then they would’ve at least- maybe, hopefully, been even a little more respectful of Gwyn having been traumatized. coincidentally, all the characters the hate is over, not including the Archeron sisters, are canonically side characters and i don’t why that pisses people off so much.)

The Archeron sisters and bat boys are the main characters of the series. That is clear and is shown throughout the series.

If anyone wants to comment on this post with their opinions of how people treat Gwyn and how they view fanon Gwyn as canon Gwyn, please feel free. In my opinion, Gwynriels depictions of Gwyn are disturbing. They sexualize her and it’s honestly wrong. After what she has gone through, creating art and coming up with “theories” that involve Gwyn in a sexual way make me completely uncomfortable.

Regarding Nesta, she went through a lot and dealt with her emotions in a very unhealthy way. There is no other way to put it. She was harmful to herself and was going down a very bad path. Had Rhysand and Feyre not stopped her, she would have still been going down a bad path and never would have healed. Nesta has also been very mean and rude throughout the series. That’s just a fact. Was there a reason for it? Yes. But does that reason excuse her actions and the way she acted before she healed? No.

I don’t know what you mean regarding the Azriel and Elain part. People could easily read the books and imagine themselves as Elain if they wanted to. Maybe then they would see all the buildup she has with Azriel throughout four books and a bonus chapter. They just choose not to do that.

Again, if anyone has anything else to add to this please feel free in the commets.

Gwynriels needs to go read again cause Gwyn’s SA should not be romanticize as an argument for their ship.

Second, Azriel never held her at that moment. Mor carried her not Azriel. Stop changing canon scenes to match your view and your ship (even more in that disgusting way). Saying it created an « emotional and passionate connexion » 🤢

Then in the comments again we’re the bad guys since our reading comprehension is too literal we clearly didn’t understand what the artist meant with this art either.

Like do they forget that Azriel was not with her in that moment ? He saved her, covered her and left her with Mor. He didn’t try to comfort her or hug her or some shit.

Also SJM team liscencing the art is really disgusting. They are really comforting Gwynriels in their fake canon scene and how this scene is romantic and holds connexion for Gwynriel future bond 🤮

So I didnt know what the heck was going on with this art and I finally saw it today in the morning.

I think all of this stems from the fact that Gwyn and Azriel have virtually no scenes together. They have no meaningful scenes. They have non-meaningful scenes. They are not a couple and it makes sense that they wouldn't.

Therefore, this whole post-rape rescue thing is just an imagination feeder because it's easy to make it important. It isn't. THE important rescue scene of the books is of course Azriel saving Elain. It was like a 16 page (somewhat unnecessary) chapter, which is literally devoted exclusively to Azriel freaking out about Elain and risking everything to go after her. Sure, we get some insights into Tamlin and Jurian as well, and Feyre is willing to do anything to save her sister. But the rescue is of course about Elain and Azriel. "You came for me"--obvious sexual connotations. His clutching her and unwilling to release her. Him worrying about her and the chains, while his wings are bleeding and 'his strength gave out' yet Elain is still his primary concern--all of that is on page AND a lot of time is devoted to the whole episode.

Similar on-page rescues are of course Rowan and Aelin and Lorcan and Elide. Whether it's Rowan journeying across the lands looking for Aelin who is imprisoned by Maeve, or Elide riding a horse across the battlefield to find Lorcan--these are massive scenes, sometimes whole chapters, which show the couple's devotion to each other. In some ways, Nesta saving Cassian with her scream during the battle is kind of the same thing.

Gwyn's rescue is (a retocon) AND is off page. We only HEAR about it through her. We don't see it, and we don't see any of his reactions or actions. It's there to lay a foundation to her trauma, why she is in the Library and her overcoming the trauma.

It has nothing to do with a sexy set up for a ship.

Sure, a young maiden being ravished and then being saved by a gallant knight is a tale as old as time, but it's not a set up for a modern romance. Sorry, but it just isn't. Even back 2.5 thousand years ago, was Zeus was flying around raping everyone he liked, those stories never resulted in some romantic set ups. Maybe ultra-powerful babies, but rape is never a set up for romance. I just don't see SJM ever going there.

The empowering moment in that story was for Gwyn to find her voice, her strength and her friends. It was to show that she could overcome the most terrible of events and persevere. It's not about her finding a boyfriend in Azriel.

I'm not sure why Anti's struggle to understand this.

No one is calling Az's rescue of Gwyn romantic or sexy.

No one thinks Az showed up just to save Gwyn or that he somehow knew she was something to him.

What Gwynriels are saying is that if Az and Gwyn turn out to be Mates, SJM will have planted seeds that make it meaningful that she was rescued by her Mate. SJM could have said both Azriel and Cassian arrived or just Cassian arrived but SJM chose to say that it was only Azriel who showed up just in time to stop Gwyn from a second SA. At the very lowest moment of her life, it will have been her Mate to provide her with the first bit of comfort, offering her a jacket to cover herself, and her Mate who got revenge on her behalf by slaughtering all that were guilty (rather than leaving even one person alive for questioning since that's typically what Az does - torturing for information), a possible Mate like response without Az even being aware of it.

Rhysand was there for Feyre when she was at her lowest, both UTM (when he sent her music) and after, when he helped her through her depression.

Lucien was there for Elain, holding her in his arms after her worst moments (where Elain remained until Nesta ripped her away). He was also there for her when he finally made it to her side in the NC, offering suggestions on how to help her.

Cassian was the one trying to reach for Nesta when she was put into the Cauldron and by her side when they faced off with the King (and her father was killed).

There is a pattern of Mates being with the female during the most traumatic events of their lives and if Gwynriel happens, the pattern will have held true.

I don't know how to explain it any better than that. Of course nothing about Gwyn's trauma was "romantic" but it cannot be denied that it will be poignant if it turns out her Mate and ONLY her Mate rescued her.

If anyone is romanticizing anything, it's Azriel’s rescue of Elain, who had just been kidnapped (not a cause for romance, correct?). A rescue Cassian first spoke of and most likely would have done, had he not been injured. A rescue Azriel offered to do after watching how devastated his brothers love interest was at the kidnapping of her sister, a rescue of his own High Lady's sister, who also accompanied him. A rescue where Azriel was severely injured, barely standing and all Elain did was kiss him on the cheek then walk away.

Some hot takes on Feysand Pregnancy

Okay. Here goes. So, I've read a lot of mixed reviews on the Feysand baby situation that occurred in ACOSF, most of them in the negative. So, I'm here to offer counterpoints. She's too young. Hasn't lived her life yet. But, hasn't she? She practically raised herself, took care of her family for years before she moved to Prythian. Just because someone is "young" doesn't mean they aren't "old." Goes the other way as well (the bat boys are over 500 years and still do and say some pretty dumb, immature shit). Age is truly relative in adulthood IMO. And, let's remember, Feyre's view on this point of having a baby changed in the series. She told Rhys she wasn't ready in ACOMAF. Then you have the war with Hybern where she LOST him, only to be brought back. So, you see her in ACOFAS contemplate a family when she sees art from the widow in the Rainbow. She realized, though the fae are practically immortal, tomorrow isn't promised. The war and understanding this changed her perspective on wanting to start a family now instead of wait. And, don't forget, they live a thousand years; this time to enjoy their child is just a drop in the bucket. Full disclosure, my mom had me at 21, was married at 20. 3 kids by 30 and she and my dad are living their best lives because we were out the door when they are still young-ish. Oh, and my dad is 6 years older and way less mature (still is LOL). So, whether a character (or RL person for this matter) decides to have them younger or wait until they are old, that's their choice. In this case, I can see why Feyre changed her mind. Now, this is where I get annoyed... :ahem: having a baby does NOT mean you stop living your life. Does not mean you aren't allowed to be a badass or have a job. If you generally just don't like pregnancies in books, fine, but good gods the number of times I've read complaints as if Feyre is just going to sit on her ass. Just don't. Plus, WE ALL KNEW THIS WAS COMING! We've known since ACOMAF and the meeting with the Bone Carver they would have a son. I'm just saying. And let's not forget the most important part here; Feyre made a CHOICE to start trying for a baby. Feysand were selfish in their deal to die together. This I can agree with. Their death pact is a little much and I get that the trauma of each of them having lived and witness the other die was a little much. I didn't agree with it (much like how I would never get a name tattooed on me). It was a dumbass, impulsive move done out of emotion on both their parts that SJM clearly romanticized. However, I don't think they planned for the pregnancy wing complication to occur, so the risk of her dying in childbirth was probably relative before they decided to fuck junk out, wings out. But, I mean... also real life? You can have kids and be in the same car in an accident. At least Feysand has a good support system around them where, if they did leave, Nyx would be raised by a family that would comfort and love him. The birth scene in ACOSF was overdramatic and just a way to add Feysand into a Nessian book. IDK why no one thought that Feysand wouldn't have some part in a Nessian book but, yeah, it was a little overdramatic. However, there has to be a reason SJM made sure Nyx had wings when he was born. I'm sure we'll see him deal with Illyria and stuff as he gets older. She wouldn't go through all of that for it not to be important at some point. Rhysand was wrong to keep the wings from Feyre. Yes. That's a duh. I get that he didn't want to stress her out, didn't want her to worry. But still, dick move. But also, WTF Madja?! What kind of healer wouldn't mention that or the risks TO THEIR PATIENT. I don't like healthcare in the Night Court. Nope.

on azriel

So re: the whole Azriel thing and him not being in a good place for a relationship:

This is NOT a new argument. Calling out one person for making that statement is... a bold move, in a fandom where that very topic is discussed quite often, with thoughtful and careful analysis and respect. Like.... yesterday.

Saying that Azriel is not in a place for a relationship right now IS NOT saying that people with mental health problems don’t deserve love or to be in healthy relationships. “Basically, she said that people with mental health don't deserve to be in a relationship.” No! That is a massive misinterpretation of the actual statement being made! Please learn better critical reading/listening skills! (I’m not tagging OP because I’m not giving their behavior a platform.)

No one ever said that Az doesn’t “deserve” to be in a relationship. No one thinks that real people in the real world with mental health problems don’t deserve relationships! It’s misinterpretation upon misinterpretation. 

Anyway.

Everyone deserves love. Everyone deserves support. No one is arguing that. What people are saying, if I may be so bold as to speak for others, is:

Azriel deserves love and support.

That love and support can come from family and friends.

It is not the “job” of a romantic partner to be everything to their partner, nor is it healthy.

Azriel is not in a good place to be in a healthy, mutually supportive relationship because

He does not currently address his trauma and hasn’t for a long, long time.

He represses, and then his emotions explode in inappropriate and harmful ways (see: High Lord meeting in acowar, defying Rhys in acosf, his constant “cruel” competitiveness, trying to prevent Elain from helping with the Dread Trove with “an outright sign of temper”. We know that this is true. Stop trying to romanticize it.)

Everyone around Az looks at him warily. I’m not going to pull out all the examples, someone else can do that, but look at the way Mor watches him. Look at the way Cassian watches him. Look at the extreme measures Rhys had to take in the extra. They know he’s unpredictable and full of rage, even though he seems to hold it together. Most of the time.

He routinely tortures people, and it was emphasized in acosf that Feyre could barely stand to be around it. Feyre, who has seen some pretty dark sh*t.

Azriel has some things he needs to work on - don’t we all - but because of the way he treats other people, we know that he is not the partner you’d look for on eharmony dot com.

And that’s what it comes down to - his behavior. Not his mental state. 

Love is not always enough.

Being in love and being in a relationship are NOT the same thing. Being in a relationship is work. It has to be mutual. Sometimes, people are not in a place to be in a relationship. And that’s okay! SJM gave us all the clues we need to know what sort of mental state Az is in right now, and how that impacts the way that he treats people, and that is nowhere near being a supportive partner who can draw boundaries and recognizes the individual personhood and agency of their partner; in other words, he currently seems unable to contribute the necessary work to create a healthy relationship. 

Azriel will be in a place to have a healthy, mutually supportive relationship. Just... not yet. And the way he treated Elain in that chapter was EXACTLY what we are trying to say. He saw her as a prize, as a thing to conquer, as something he was owed. That’s,... not even love. 

And let’s be honest - if someone made these statements about Tamlin, 1) it would be true, and 2) no one would dispute it. We saw very similar signs regarding Tamlin in acotar and then they came to the foreground in acomaf. Tamlin also had issues restraining his rage. He was controlling, reacting based on an instinct to protect that was about his own peace of mind rather than Feyre’s autonomy. And look what happened. He loved Feyre, and Feyre loved him, but that love wasn’t enough because Tamlin was not in a place where he could do the things I mentioned two paragraphs above. Had they met in a different time and place, maybe it would have worked out. Or maybe they wouldn’t have fallen in love. Who knows. But what we do know is that Tamlin became abusive because he lacked emotional awareness and intelligence. 

Tamlin is basically a cautionary tale for Azriel and I don’t see how people can have read this series and not see that. Not see that sjm wrote Azriel in a very specific way in that extra.

Will Az get to the same lonely, dark place that Tamlin has ended up? I doubt it. He has a much better support system than Tamlin, for one. He also is being set up to have an HEA, for another. There isn’t a war on, no Amarantha holding everyone hostage. Their histories and personalities, the people they are surrounded by are different - the way they deal with their emotions and trauma is not.

So anyway making a call-out post reducing very complex arguments to simplistic “you hurt me cuz i can’t understand what you meant” is a choice, but it’s not a great one.

1. "they have history"

him saving her from r*pe isnt 'history'. stop romanticising her trauma to justify ur ship :/

11. "he answers those questions"

'She opened her mouth to ask more, but he didn't feel like explaining.'

19. "he's not worried about his hands with her"

why would he care about a stranger's opinion on his hands? if someone has something they're insecure about, they wouldnt care what random people think😭😭

wow you guys all have the exact same arguments ok here we go. and can we stop with the romanticizing SA thing because clearly y’all don’t understand what that means.

him saving her is absolutely history, it may be gory and horrible but azriel is an important part of gwyn’s story and sjm made the choice to connect them beyond their shared friend. it’s not romanticizing to state a fact, gwyn and azriel have history. that’s like saying it’s romanticizing feysand when rhys saved feyre during calanmai from the faeries. and rhys also met feyre at the spring court before they officially met utm. neither had romantic history, but history nonetheless. read it and weep

see that’s my exact point gwyn was basically a stranger and yet he told her that he sings. why would he share that personal piece of information with someone who wouldn’t be important, especially when we know how private azriel is. as far as we know, gwyn could be the only person who knows azriel sings. elain certainly doesn’t know. it’s about getting to know each other

true but it stands to reason that he should be with someone who doesn’t make him feel insecure. if you look at the way the bonus chapter is structured then you see the comparison between the two potential relationships. with elain he is worried about tainting her, he doesn’t think he deserves her and well his thoughts don’t make for a healthy relationship. with gwyn he doesn’t need to train to feel at ease. just one interaction with her, one teaching moment, and some banter and “something restless settled in him.” that’s what azriel needs, not someone who will make his self hatred worse.

I always explain here why Nesta doesn't convince me and every time I see someone trying to justify his behavior at the expense of other characters' traumas it just gets me closer and closer to definitely hating that character. I will not romanticize your toxic personality or attribute your desire to hurt people to your traumas. If I do that, she'll sound perfectly like a sociopath to me, to say the least. None of her excuses as to why she was a useless abusive while they were poor convinced me because the same development that tries to justify it gives me reason enough to think that she would have taken responsibility if it were Elain in Feyre's place. She could still hate her father for doing nothing, but she would have lifted that burden from Elain even though she was not obliged, despite her mother and despite her age.

None of the reasons she or you give her would have stopped her if it had been for Elain. So the problem is not Nesta itself, but Feyre. Nesta never did anything because it was Feyre risking her life, not Elain. I think it is brave who finds this character complex or minimally justified when everything under construction is contradictory. And to think that I don't like Nesta because she let Feyre go hunting, is to totally deviate from the subject. I could be ok with Nesta if Feyre had risked her life with her and Nesta hadn't been abusive to her. My problem with Nesta is much more about the treatment she always offered Feyre than the fact that Feyre went hunting.

As neither his reconciliation with Feyre was written properly. She still doesn't convince me. I also confess that I did not like to read a person who has always been abusive needing to recognize the value of his victim and ultimately save his life. It was never about Nesta loving Feyre or not, she just needed to ask for forgiveness for always behaving horribly with her younger sister.

why i’m ‘boycotting’ the nesta book - a thread.

disclamier for people who think i have to love their ship

i’ve met sjm 4 times, have atleast 7 special edition books and spent waaaaaay too much money on merch via etsy. so this is NOT hate, just my own reasong.however, as she begins to post more and more threads on the book she’s publishing - i can’t help but feel triggered as an actual victim and disappointed as a reader.

i know people argue that feyre’s pov is biased but EVERYONE saw the problem in nesta. not just her. that’s why it’s true that she was a ‘bitch’ or a horrible person. because she literally was. not just because feyre thought so. 

reason 1 - elain deserved a book first

jesus fucking christ. the things we could have gotten with a elain book. 

why she loves planting. 

why she listened to feyre’s instruction but didn’t help. 

how she felt being one of the most powerful fae. 

feeling her pull to lucien an going to the spring court where she could flourish as an planter. 

being best friends with azriel and learning to weild her powers. 

a love triangle with three shy people. 

elain helping people.

i feel like this book would have been more ‘powerful’ in the terms of a spin off and more than just ‘here’s two people kissing in the mountains and a traumtic backstory’. we could get so much from elain whereas nesta feels like a dead end. 

reason 2 - it’s unneeded / a money grab

this just support reason 1 but long story short - it seems as if sjm decided that she wants to randomly change nesta’s character so that she can pro-long the book series which is a HUGE sigh.

but because everyone loves cassian - she decided to go that way and drag nesta along with the ‘enemies to lovers’ thing.

and if you’ve seen her old interviews were she talks about nesta...nesta was sjm’s ‘i have someone i hate and i’m going to make them into a character’ character. she said that she loved making nesta a ‘bitch for no reason because it was like the girls she went to high school who she hated and wanted revenge on’... so its clear that she didn’t really like writing her...so why choose them two??? oh, because it’ll sell. 

reason 3 - playing the victim

this is where i’m triggered bc as an actual rape victim / someone who grew up in a bad household, it’s not okay to just sprinkle shit in for excuses. with the first round of books, these backgrounds of trauma made SENSE. however, after everything being said and done in interviews on YOUTUBE where we see sarah say ‘nesta is just a bitch because’... it’s gonna feel fake if she throws in some unneccasry trauma just to have fans pity her.  which she will. if you see the blurbs she’s posted on her ig/website - she’s gonna set it up so that nesta was raped, or beat by their father, or something that was NEVER mentioned in the books before so that everyone feels bad for her instead of just admitting she was wrong...

and that’s not okay. 

STOP SAYING LOOK PASS THE FIRST BOOK. WE DO. SHE WAS RUDE IN ALL FOUR BOOK. THATS WHY SHE WAS SENT AWAY.

WHAT STANS NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS - it doesn’t matter what she went through. 

feyre had a hard life. rhysand had a hard life.  cassian had a hard life.  azriel had a hard life.  morrigan had a hard life.  elain had a hard life.  literally every fucking sjm character had a hard life. 

THAT DOES NOT EXCUSES ANYTHING. IT ONLY EXPLAINS IT. 

so this idea that she can run away and fall in love, romanticize her mental illness and just be forgiven is silly and needs to stop. cassian’s dick is not going to apoligize for her.

reason 3 - the timeline won’t add up

again. if sjm wants to go back on everything she’s said in interviews, on her own youtube channel, written in books and all that - it’s a lazy, sloppy job but hey! i guess. however, we can’t ignore IMPORTANT notes from feyres point of view. nesta didn’t do any work. she barely wanted to do the bare minimum. so pretending that she had to do anything besides be mean to her father and not help elain and feyre. 

sis is the oldest and literally whined when feyre tried to get elain new boots. and ofc you can argue that elain didn’t help out much HOWEVER she did plant things, she wasn’t unneccsarily rude, she did what feyre told her to. did she step up to the challenge - no. but she tried without complaining. 

nesta literally decided to keep her nails clean instead of chopping wood....are you seeing where i’m going???

i would love to see how sjm is going to sprinkle in bits that feyre recalled but change them as if feyre left out details...because then she would be setting up feyre as a liar and ruining her arc for the new girl on the spotlight.

anyways...i could go on and on about it - but i won’t. you’re allowed to have your opnion and i’m allowed to have mine. however i posted this because a nesta fan asked me and we had a DICUSSION w/o fighting over it. so here it is. 

This Azriel is not someone who is overprotective in a positive way and cannot be seen as romantic.

Az with Mor wanted to stop her from doing things because she wanted to protect her from harm.

Az doesn't think Elain is capable of protecting herself and dealing with the Cauldron's evil.

That's not being protective because he loves, for me that's limiting and seeing how weak he is.

To me, Rhys cares and varies everything to protect Feyre, but he would never stop her from fighting or anything like that because it's dangerous.

Nor will Hunt go beyond what Bryce wants, out of his will to protect.

I still think looking at the trauma and journey of Elain and Az gives me a lot of the vibe that initially Az will smother Elain because he sees how fragile and doesn't know how to defend himself.

And Elain at the moment can accept many things until she disappears and then realizes and fights to be seen as strong.

It's just this overprotective Az that's giving me these sensations at the moment.

hosab gave us some good examples of Hunt watching Bryce get into dangerous situations and the mating bond not overriding his good sense. He felt some major influence from the bond, but he repressed it because he knew that Bryce was capable. Heck, at the end of the book he knowingly says goodbye and helps her escape so she can get to Hel.

It's almost like Az sees how Rhys and Cassian act with Feyre and Nesta, and wants to emulate it, without understanding that those two men recognize their mates as individuals?

I wouldn't be surprised if of all of them, Az romanticizes the bond the most. But he's just going about it all wrong 😬