#heres the thing about the aeneid that really gets me | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

johaerys-writes · 1 month

Note

Would you be interested in sharing some of your fav books/scholars/academics/papers on The Iliad?

Hello! And thank you for this ask!! Basically, my research on Homer focuses a lot on Achilles and his relationship with Patroclus; I sometimes read works that are about the Iliad in general, but most of it is with Patroclus and Achilles in mind. But I do often come across interesting works on the Iliad as a whole, so I'll list some of them here. I have a lot of stuff to share, I'll keep it as brief as I can because I don't want to overwhelm anyone lol.

Books

As far as books go, I have several different translations of the Iliad, and most of the time each translation has its own introduction, sometimes by another classicist. Those are a great place to start. My favourites are Caroline Alexander's Iliad translation, and the introduction she wrote herself. I like Caroline Alexander's work in general, including her book on the Iliad The War That Killed Achilles (which my pal Baejax sent me bc I couldn't find it anywhere here <3 <3), because her writing is clear, straightforward and informative. Her translation is my go to translation at the moment because I like how faithful it is to the original Greek, it's the one I keep next to my bedside and which is full of bookmarks and notes LOL.

Another favourite is Robert Fagles' translation, with an introduction by Bernard Knox (who also wrote an excellent introduction to Robert Fagles' translation of the Aeneid). Even though Robert Fagles' translation isn't as close to the original as others, I love it because it is just so beautiful. It is definitely the one with the most staying power if you ask me, some passages are just chef's kiss. Bernard Knox's intro is also super informative (although he doesn't really go into Patroclus' and Achilles' relationship), and when he supplements his analysis with Fagles' gorgeous text it's just a wonderful experience.

Another translation that I recommend to anyone who can read modern Greek is the one by N. Kazantzakis & G. Kakridis, I think it's THE iconic Greek translation if you ask me. It has a lot of idiomatic language and expressions and it might not be as easy to get into as other Greek translations are, but it's truly beautiful and lyrical and it is entirely written in 17-syllable lines in iambic metre, adapting Homer's dactylic hexameter to modern Greek. Verse translations aren't really a thing for most English translations, which is a shame if you ask me. I think it's pretty much the only translation I've read so far that really invites you to read it out loud, as the original work was intended.

I do have Emily Wilson's translation as well but I haven't read it yet (I KNOW, SHAME ON ME), I really want to give it my full attention and I just haven't had the time yet. But I've read bits of the introduction and also parts of the translation and so far I love them. I hope to be back with a more informed opinion once I've actually read it LOL

Scholars

I have to admit that I don't follow any specific scholar religiously. I tend to read whatever catches my interest. That being said, I do love Emily Wilson's work and I've read several of her articles and papers, I think they're really informative and well-written. When she was doing the promotion for her Iliad translation on Twitter I read a lot of the stuff she posted and they were all great. My favourite was her interview with Madeline Miller which you can read here. I also liked this review of her Iliad translation that I read recently, written by Stephanie Mc Carter. Basically, I follow her on Twitter and read the articles she posts, and some are very interesting. I also went to see her in person when she gave a lecture in Athens in October, it was really good but unfortunately it isn't online anymore so I can't link it :(

I also really like watching Madeline Miller interviews on Youtube, I think I've watched every single one that's out there and even though some of them are brief or repetitive because interviewers usually ask her the same questions, I do think she always has something interesting to says both related to her books/writing but also the Iliad and the Odyssey that have inspired her. There are two interviews in particular that I like, this one which is more about TSOA and the Iliad, and this one which is more about Circe and the Odyssey. I genuinely enjoy listening to her a lot, I find it very calming.

My friend @darlingpoppet recently introduced me to the work of Celsiana Warwick, and I've really enjoyed reading her stuff!! Particularly this one which is about conjugal bonds and the homoerotic subtext of the Iliad, and this one which is about gender and kleos in the Iliad. Good stuff, and I look forward to reading more!

Papers

There are a few papers about Achilles and Patroclus that I really like and that I go back to from time to time. I have far too many in my jstor account and can't go through all of them right now, but these spring to mind:

Achilles and Patroclus in Love by W.M. Clarke, it's a very informative analysis of the homoerotic subtext of the Iliad and tries to "prove" in a way that Achilles and Patroclus are in a romantic/erotic relationship. Super interesting!

The Relationship between Achilles and Patroclus according to Chariton of Aphrodisias and Was the Relationship between Achilles and Patroclus Homoerotic? The View of Apollonius Rhodius by Gabriel Laguna-Mariscal and Manuel Sanz-Morales are two very interesting analyses of Achilles and Patroclus' relationship in relation to other ancient works, they're not too long and I found them very fun to read.

Euphorbus and the Death of Achilles by Roberto Nickel is super interesting and has some really cool takes on the deaths of Hector, Achilles and Patroclus and how they are all related.

Some more stuff

Some more videos I've watched and find rather interesting are The Contemporary Relevance of the Iliad by Erwin Cook, Why Homer Matters which is a talk between Adam Nicholson and Paul Cartledge (whose work and lectures on ancient greek history are always super informative!! I love watching his stuff even if they're not directly Iliad-related) I don't vibe with everything that's said in this video honestly nor do I agree with a lot of Nicholson's takes but they did make some interesting points about Homer's relevance and the emphasis on honour/glory in a world without justice and in a war without good leadership, so it might be worth a watch. Lastly, another series of video lectures that I really like is Homer's The Iliad and The Odyssey, it's five lectures in total and a great introduction to the Homeric works which also goes into the historical context a little bit, very informative even for someone who is well versed in Homer.

I hope this helped! I can't think of any more off the top of my head now, and I really should get ready to leave for work lmao, but if I do think of anything else, I'll add it here :D Also, if you're reading this and have something to add feel free to do so!

#patrochilles #achilles #patroclus #the iliad #homer's iliad #greek mythology #greek literature

35 notes · View notes

madebypointlesswords · 11 months

Text

Rating all the Latin authors I've read in the past two years in honor of my oral Latin exam tomorrow

Caesar (De Bello Gallico)

This is a weird one because while his prose isn't extremely difficult, it was also the first unedited work I read, so for lil 15-year-old me, this was very difficult. But I learned a lot from Caesar (especially that he made it an art to making his sentences as long as possible. We read an entire 200 words, and IT WAS JUST ONE SENTENCE.), and the sense of nostalgia while rereading it is very pleasant, so I will give you a solid 6/10

Pliny the Younger (Epistulae)

Mixed feelings about this one again. This could also be just because I despise prose. I really do not like it at all. Pliny's epistulae were pretty okay. I liked them a little better than Caesar's because of their variety (for those that don't know, epistulae means letters). His letter about the Vesuvius was a lot of fun to translate, even with all the hyperbata, but his letters about or to his third wife were very uncomfortable. Like, I get things were different back then. BUT YOU WERE 45, PLINY. 45. SHE WAS WHAT? 14? 15 TOPS? MY GOD. THAT'S A BIGGER AGE DIFFERENCE THAN I HAVE WITH MY FATHER.

7/10

Ovid (Metamorphoses)

Ovid is life Ovid is love. He was the one who introduced me to Latin poetry, and I will always love him for it. He was an icon and a legend. The poems of his that we read (Daedalus & Icarus, Latona and the Lycian peasants, Diana and Actaeon) were all bangers, and I love them all to death. I never wanted to go back to reading prose after this (but unfortunately, I will have to next year. ew)

11/10 (I love you, Ovid)

Vergil (The Aeneid)

*deep sigh* Listen. I love his complex works, and I have great respect for this poem but by the GODS. Vergil's poetry is the most difficult I've had to translate by a long shot. He made me rethink my entire career in Latin. I have considered quitting so many times because of this man. I felt like a complete idiot most of the time. This is not a guy to fuck with. Luckily I got through it on my finals (barely.) but Christ alive this man made my life difficult.

5/10

Horatius (Satires and Odes)

Horatius will always have a special place in my heart. We read his poetry right after Vergil's, and it almost completely restored my faith in my abilities. He's just my little guy and I have fond memories of translating his works. We still know many Latin phrases that he wrote (Carpe Diem being the most famous. Hello, DPS fandom). Also, he and Vergil were most definitely in love. I don't make the rules. I have evidence if you want me to elaborate.

9/10

Catullus (love poems)

Ah, Catullus. Horny poet of the year. Had a wild affair with an older married woman. Nepotism baby. Sappho stan. Didn't know how to budget, but we aren't holding that against him. Just wanted to write poetry and dance (who doesn't, honestly). Gave fuck-all about education. Wrote nearly all of his poetry about the older woman he had an affair with. Might I add that this woman was married to one of his father's bestest buddies? Yeah. Icon. Here's a kid's choice award.

8/10

Martialis (Epigrams)

This dude had ZERO chill. Roasted everyone in the city. Literally, no one is safe. Wasn't afraid to call people out by their real names. Some people allegedly committed suicide after being roasted by this guy. Translating his epigrams gave me more joy than hearing we had seen the end of Vergil. His humour may be a little silly now, but I will not accept any Martialis slander on my blog.

10/10

And that is all folks

#latin student #latin memes #latin literature #publius ovidius naso #classics #ancient greek #martialis #how is that not a tag #this guy is the epitome of Tumblr humour #pliny the younger #pliny #julius caesar #roman history #roman literature #catullus #vergil #the aeneid #vergil and horatius were gay and in love pass it on #horatius

43 notes · View notes

randomnameless · 3 months

Note

Localization discourse has started to rear its head again because of some Funimation localizer defending a line from Dragon Maid but it really got me thinking, I feel like so many people are so quick on demonizing anyone who doesn't like localization changes as pro-GG when it's much more simpler. People don't hate localization changes because of the message itself but rather because it's not what the character is saying 9/10 and it comes off as calculated and cynical. I feel like it's kind of a direct consequence of transformative fandom, with the whole "I'm going to write the story the way I want it to be and fill up the spaces" but instead of a fanfic it's with the original source material.

Pro GG?

What is GG? AI?

I remember this argument of the "it's not what the character is saying" and people being pissed because they couldn't get the "right" script - and tbh, after reading some arguments here and there, localisation always comes with necessary changes/adaptation to the text, let it be grammatically or to convey ideas from a language to another, so if you want a 100% faithful script then... better start to learn the language lol

With Funimation though...

The Shinchan earlier post was telling enough of my opinion about drastic changes that aren't used to transcribe a meaning or convey an idea to a foreign audience, it's just... erasing the source material and swapping your own ideas on them.

Like, uhhh

Funimation acquired the Shin-chan US license in 2005. Funimation's dub takes many liberties with the source material and was heavily Americanized. Many sexual references, dark humor, and references to then-current popular American culture were added, including many jokes about subjects such as Jews, terrorism, and Viagra. Characters were given significantly different personalities and new, previously non-existent backstories. For instance, Shin is refused an allowance, on he basis that he could use it to buy drugs (crystal meth), his schoolmate Kazama ('Georgie Herbert Walker Prescott III' in this dub) was an absurdly hawkish ultra-conservative Republican, the unseen father of Nene (known in the dub as "Penny") was suggested to be physically abusive towards both his wife and daughter, Principal Enchou was rewritten as a half Romani, half Peruvian man with a complicated, checkered backstory that includes a stint as an accident-prone magician, The kids' teacher: Yoshinaga-sensei (known in the dub as "Miss Polly"), was rewritten as a kinky and often domineering nymphomaniac,

The earlier Vitello and Phuuz dub also edited some jokes and/or what was considered indecent exposure like shin's buttocks and tried to "occidentalise" a few references, but it wasn't like straight up changing what a character is or their personality!

No doubts funimation was "authorised" by whoever had the rights of the franchise to lolcalise and edit it as they did but it just comes out as a "why did they rewrite that stuff like they did", to make more money, to make another "mature cartoon" like Family Guy expy, idk.

And to be honest... I don't really care, because I grew up with the Vitello Dub and read some manga chapters of Shin-chan, so I know what the manga/anime (sure, the dog wasn't named lucky but shiro!) is supposed to say and/or be about.

I don't agree when you say those "lololcalisations" are a consequence of the transformative fandom in general, transformative works have existed since... forever lol (some dude wrote in the early middle ages (grégoire de Tours?) how Franks are descendans of Achilles or something to explain how kickass his king and his people are like, at this point, he's writing a self-insert OC story, right?)

But in modern times, there used to be a clear (?) divide between what was transformative work and what was canon - 50 Shades of Grey sort of started as a Twilight fanfic, but it became its own thing and no calls it a Twilight adaptation or "Twilight" anymore.

The Aeneid? Despite what devoted fans wants the world to believe, is "just" a fanfiction, aka someone writing about the characters he """loves""" no matter how OOC they are. It's a Fodlan fanfic and treated as such. Or should lol.

Still, if in a fanfic, Flayn can apologise for being born as a lizard because having lizard blood means she's automatically evil and oppresses humanity due to the fact she exists, it's only a fanfic. It's not something I like, OOC as fuck, but okay, moving on. Rhea eating ketchup is my own hc, also OOC since we don't see her eating any in the games, same thing - but fanfics are OOC by essence because they're a transformative work !

As I said, okay, moving on.

But when what is supposed to be as close as "canon", albeit translated, dips in the same "OOC" territory?

Sure, Eng!Raphael will say "I" instead of "ore" to refer to himself - and yet, imo, if professional localisers (at least the people picked by the company to bring games to an international audience!) have some sort of leeway with canon, their work is inherently transformative - since they're localising -they are still bound by some rules, unlike a fanfic author, because the aim of their work is not the same.

When you write a fanfic, you write it for yourself, to tell the story you want.

Of course it depends, like the funi shin chan dub showed, but usually, I think, when you are a professional localising something (a manga, anime, book, tv series, myth, story, anything!) you are supposed to only bring "necessary" changes to the source material to bring this source material to the "targeted audience".

And it's kind of hard to determine at what point is a "change" necessary or not - back in the 2000, "Jonouchi" had to be changed in "Joey" because, supposedly, non japanese children wouldn't be able to understand/connect/watch/idk a show with a foreign name (even here in France, we got "Petit Coeur" aka Small/Little Heart for... Piccolo in the early 90s!) - but now in the 2020s Midorima isn't dubbed "Mike".

(even if 2013 saw a localised Fates edit "Suzukaze" to "Kaze" for reasons as foggy as Fodlan's 10k years of lore)

And we of course have the notion of "targeted audience" - here in France, in the 90s, basically any "animated cartoon" was supposed to be targeted for children, like 3 to 10 years old. Which is the reason why we got lunar dubs for Hokuto no Ken and City Hunter (no "brothels", but instead, "vegetarian restaurants"!).

Yugioh was dubbed for a younger audience than, I guess, what was the targeted audience for the manga (even the original anime, regardless of the dub or not, feels like it was made for younger "children" than the ones who would read the manga!).

And this is where I wanted to come with the modern "transform the source material!" lolcalisations - are they "heavily" edited because they target a specific audience?

Like... the funimation Shinchan dub was obviously not aimed at children the manga, or even the original anime, hell even the Vitello dub, were targeting.

It's almost as if we're not talking about "bringing this definite thing to random people", but "finding/tweaking random things to definite people".

Take Fodlan's lolcalisation, especially Treehouse/Pat's.

NoA was the only regional branch to have, on the official website, something like "the Church controls Fodlan".

Through the 4 (already 4!) years of coverage, some people are still finding dub exclusive lines that portray the CoS as "BaD" or in a more negative light than the original text. Pat completely missed (or was it on purpose?) Rhea's character, so Leigh had to dub Rhage, when Supreme Leader was scrubbed off her most, uh, dubious personality traits (tfw no information campaign anymore :( or calling Rhea a Nabatean as an insult :()

Why? Why those changes? Is it because Pat/Treehouse didn't want to bring the game to the US, but wanted to bring this game to the "Dany revolution yas slay kween" crowd + the "organised religion especially catholicism BaD" crowd? Or because they thought bringing "a game" to this crowd would bring more money than to bring "Fire Emblem Three Houses" to the general US crowd? So they "reworked" FE16 to have messages that would attract this certain crowd ?

(and apparently it worked, iirc the US sales made up for 50% of FE16's sales, so it was very popular (and profitable!!))

The Pat/Treehouse changes weren't "necessary" to understand the source material, or try to find similar references (a trip to a hot spring in Shinchan was replaced with a trip to Paris, because children who might not be familiar with japan might not know what is a hot spring, or what a "trip to the hot spring" is supposed to be), so why were they made?

Is it like the Funimation dub? To reach specific people, even if the meaning and essence of the original material is lost?

In a nutshell, I don't think localisation companies (Treehouse or Funi) work in a vaccum, if they can lolcalise so much, it obviously means they got the authorisation of whoever has the rights to the original source material (maybe even the creator themselves!) to "edit" the content...

But that's what I came to regret the time where localisation, even if they had westernised names and more westernised refs, wasn't that "free", as in, Funi and Pat/Treehouse write their fanfic of Shinchan/FE16 ? Sure, why not, I mean, everyone can write a fanfic. Can I get a peak at the original source - edited as necessary because i'm not reading in the original language and I might not catch all references - please? No, because the only thing available is either something I cannot understand, or a fanfiction that takes liberties, as fanfic do, with canon.

Take Shinchan.

OG : Shin is a preschooler who has a dog named Shiro - meaning white - because his dog is white.

Vitello dub : Shin is a preschooler who has a dog named Lucky.

Funi dub : Shin wants an allowance but his parents are afraid he will buy meth and he has a dog named Lucky.

Remove the "old school" Vitello dub, and either Shin is a preschooler who named his dog "white" because the dog is white, or Shin is... a young child who receives money but lives in an area where he could buy drugs.

I can't understand the OG material, and I know the Funi one is a fanfiction, so what should I do? Treat this fanfic as canon, or, learn the language/try to understand the material by myself using dubious tools like translating apps? Or am I cursed to forever miss on Shinchan, even in the 2000s, aka an era where people can translate and localise movies from one language to another, but apparently for this one manga/anime, it's not possible unless it's lolcalised? Snowhite was turned into "Blanche-Neige" but the story is mostly the same than the one told in the US, but for Shinchan, I can only get the "Family Guy" version that isn't told in Japan?

I remember there was a controversy about localisation (when the thing that sparked that controversy wasn't even localisation related!) where some people, annoyed with the "liberties" they have with their dub version, became intense and rude and want to see localisers as "mere" translators...

And it escalated to have some localisers basically saying a game they localised is "their take" on a story - which is true, because each translation/localisation works with the bias of the translator/localiser, even if they try to be as neutral as possible, they can't completely remove themselves from their work -

Still, in FE16, Pat'n'Treehouse removed the "Supreme Leader uses propaganda" mention. Why? Is it their bias talking, they don't want her to "look bad"? But the script, the game wants the player to know she uses "information campaigns". Pat's "take" is she doesn't use it, but as a player, can't I be offered the choice to make my own take after seeing the script that mentions it, or not? Is Pat the one who directed the script, and wrote it as the "main thread" that links everything in the game (regardless of Fodlan's consistency lol), or was it Kusakihara/someone else?

If pat arbitrarly "removes" this part of the script, but I see it because I play in Japanese/Chinese/Korean/heck maybe other languages whose dub wasn't overseen by Pat, can it be said I played the same game as the players who played with the Pat dub/script?

Pat's CF!Felix calls Dimitri a monster, OG CF!Felix calls him a man -> thankfully we can count on fans to find stuff like this out but, again, why this bias against Dimitri in CF - that comes here from the lolcalisation, and not from the original text?

Why is it there? What if someone wants to play, and hopefully, understand, not Pat's "take" on their relationship in CF, but the writers/developer's? Is that someone fucked, or kindly asked to learn japanese (aka to do Pat'n'Treehouse's job?).

I don't really have The Perfect Solution (tm) anon to the general localisation discourse, at one point I was on the "just translate" fence, but when you understand a pun or a reference, and how it connects to something else, the game/book/anime/movie you're watching takes another level and it's much more enjoyable!

And yet, growing up with 4Kids and seeing shit like Treehouse butchering stuff, or hearing about Funimation Shinchan is... disheartening.

The only thing I can say is I'll always be rooting for dual audio, let it be for preferences but also to get at least what is easily understandable to everyone (I mean intonations, shocks, laughs, etc etc) and a glimpse at what the game/moving/anime is supposed to be enjoyed, especially with story heavy scripts like the FE series - while reading subs, because even the script is translated/localised, at least with the audio, it's easier to spot "lolcalisations".

And let's not forget the most important lol

The Fandom itself!

Let it be for FE, Tales or anything else, what I find fascinating (on Tumblr but even on redshit and SF once upon a time!) is how fans will be able to compare scripts, people familiar/fluent/who know a language will be able to spot the changes, and inform anyone who wants to be informed in the community that, say, Xander and Marx are pretty different characters, just like Jp!Effie and "I love to eat"!Effie.

Of course sometimes there will be misinformation (remember the Dimitri is rude because he uses the omae pronoun?), but I still find fascinating how, faced with ridiculous lolcalisations, fandom itself - aka part of the people who were supposed to be the targets of said lolcalisation - tries to "correct" and remove the unecessary edits. There are still people who dgaf about what was lolcalised from what wasn't, but even if it's just a consequence of the lolcalisation growing more and more unrestrained/unchained to the source material - it makes fandom engagment all the more precious and fascinating.

Like, you have real people basically combing the script and/or providing a translation - for free! - to help other fans, when some lolcalisers are paid to... edit and "lolcalise" the script some fans want to see.

And so, we're back to square 1 : who is the targeted audience of Funi's Shinchan or FE Treehouse?

The players/watchers?

FE Fates was, I suppose, ultimately lolcalised for a """western"" audience", aka an US one because no one gives a fuck about the rest of the world - and yet, assuming a majority of fans are from the US, said lolcalisation was mocked/ridiculed and ultimateld decried by part of that audience from who the game was lolcalised.

Some people (I've seen a redshit post about it today!) claim the lolcalised changed aren't made for the audience, but, much like a fanfiction, those changed weren't made to be more palatable to an audience, but were made for themselves - aka to push some agenda (see redshit's theory about funi pushing a "woke" agenda in their dubs and subs when it doesn't exist in the og scripts).

And to be fair, with FE16's US exclusive "Church BaD and controls the world!!!" + "Dimtri is not a man but a monster!", idk what Treehouse was trying to do, push their "organised religions BaD" agenda and "Supreme Leader is right so let's make her opponents BaD to highlight how right she is" bias? - but I can't help but wonder if it was indeed the case, and given how Pat sucked as a voice director, if the localised!version wasn't just some sort of trolley Treehouse used to convey their ideas, regardless of what the game wanted to say.

I mean, it's still fascinating, to this day, nearly 5 years after the release of the game, that we still find "Treehouse exclusive" lines, or how FEH who's still running, also has "Treehouse exclusive" lines for Fodlan characters that absolutely don't match the non global, aka, jp lines, let them be written or spoken - putting on the tinfoil hat, I wonder if Treehouse or whoever oversees the localisation isn't deadly afraid that if they don't pay extreme attention and/or rewrite anything related to Fodlan, global!players will realise that they were fed "Pat's Fire Emblem Treehouse", instead of FE16, thus takes extra care to comb and/or rewritte every line/dialogue that could make a global player think twice and note that this thing they're reading/hearing of in FEH (or even Engage!! See Dimitri's lolcalised line about people of different races living together!) is completely different from "Pat's Fire Emblem Treehouse".

Tl;Dr because I ranted and disgressed and idk where am I anymore with this post lol :

I think there's a difference between fandom's transformative works - done for fun, as a hobby! - and some lolcaliser's transformative works - they're paid for that and aren't supposed to bring a fanfiction to the audience, at least not as localisers ; so I wouldn't blame "fandom" for the fuckery that happened (Funi's shinchan is more than 17 years old!) and is sadly still happening.

On the contrary, given how fandom (at least some part of it) actively refuses to accept the lolcalised "fanfiction" - to the point of doing translation work! - I think fandom is the reason why this discourse is happening.

#anon #replies #sorry i ranted lol #and lost myself in localisation discussion lol #anyways that redshit thread had a meme about lolcalisation and using AI to push back against it #and I haven't changed my mind lol #AI sucks instead of letting Pat head Treehouse bring back human translators and people in general with a work ethic #who will localise what needs to be localised for an audience #but keep themselves and their messages/agenda out of their work #as much as possible of course #i wonder if at times all those lolcalised changes couldn't be sued for plagiarism #imagine if the french Snow White dub had her diss cream cheese to promote real cheese during the length of the movie #people would be pissed just like creators themselves #otoh if those ultra lolcalised changes passed the approval stage from the creator themselves...#then I'm just wondering what kind of idea they have of a 'western audience' or whoever the lolcaliser #said they were lolcalising for #Are we supposed to believe in 2015 IS really believed americans were too dumb to pronounce suzukaze so his name should be shortened to kaze #I say americans here because NoA exists when NoE doesn't and no one gives a fuck about us we're just eating scraps #idk #lolcalisation issues #real life issues #when you were saying calculated and cynical anon did you mean whedonspeak like the Supreme Replies #aka giving a witty one liner to sound cool?#I'm afraid I completely lost the message of your ask and replied with something compeltely unrelated :(

11 notes · View notes

ipsen · 4 months

Text

“““current””” wip

was tagged by @just-another-tokyo-ghoul-fan to share part of my ongoing wip! of which i have. many…

(narrator: ipsen just wasn’t the same after finishing blank canvas…)

i'll share some from my document lovingly titled "kaneki gets radicalized," which is just a fancy way of saying "root A but it's good." under the cut!

“‘Aogiri’s full of monsters. They’re all terrible. I’ll kill them all,’” Eto said, giggling. “What a peabrained perspective.”

Kaneki’s eyes narrowed. “What do you mean?”

“So haughty; if you’d paid attention, you’d know Tatara already answered that question.” She spun around lightly, and it crossed his mind to attack her, but there was a sharpness to her turning that stayed his hand. “Well, whatever. This place is a decoy— a red herring for our favorite birds.”

The Doves. So Aogiri had a separate goal, but the question became: what could possibly be so important as to sacrifice all the ghouls here?

“Are you familiar with the Trojan War, Kaneki? It’s classic Greek mythos, covering the war on Troy by the Achaens. It ends—”

“It ends with the Trojan horse strategy, as described in the Aeneid by Virgil,” Kaneki interrupted. “What’s your point?”

She tilted her head at him. “So you do have a spine. Good. Yes, it ends with the Trojan horse.”

[etc etc]

“The 11th ward is the horse here, inviting all of these Doves into the safety of obtaining their next promotion. I hear their commander is rather excited about succeeding. Awful, really.”

[etc etc]

“Aogiri’s true goal is Cochlea.” Eto yanked him out of his mind. “Do you know what that is?”

He remained quiet.

“You don’t. Poor, ignorant Kaneki. So emotional, so irrational, so impulsive.” She giggled again. “It’s a ghoul prison. What do you think of prisons, Kaneki?”

“… They’re a place to lock bad people up.”

“That’s the intended purpose, but do keep in mind where we are.” He couldn’t see, but he felt her eyes were narrow as those black holes stared at him. “‘This world is wrong.’”

His fist tightened.

“A net can cover a wide area, but it’s just a net: a tool to be used. It doesn’t differentiate between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ like people can. Let’s put it this way: your friends at Anteiku—” she spat the word out— “if they were lucky, would get put into Cochlea with the right evidence, and then treated the same as Yamori was. Maybe worse.

“But I digress. The full brunt of Aogiri’s forces are there right now, freeing people who will fight.” She pressed the tips of her fingers together. “Aogiri fights for a world where ghouls can exist openly. Doesn’t that sound nice?”

On paper, maybe. But— “Why are you telling me this?”

---

i have other things, but i've been sitting on this one for a bit. hopefully i can share more soon (this is a lie).

until then, i'll tag uhhhhhh @eltheabberation @desisailormoon and force them to write something out <3

#tokyo ghoul #eto yoshimura #ken kaneki #writing

9 notes · View notes

what-even-is-thiss · 1 year

Note

Do you have any good resources for learning more about Dionysus?

Depends on how in-depth you wanna get.

I haven't actually read the Dionysiaca yet because I'm too busy making my way through various translations of the Aeneid and the post-homerica and Dionysus doesn't have much to do with my current project. The other main reason I haven't read it is the reason most people don't read it. It's stupid long and kind of unfinished. But the Dionyaiaca is a main source for info on Dionysus. It's basically an epic poem that tells the story of his journey to India. Read that if you're really committed.

If you want a summary and a place to start with most major figures in Greek and Roman mythology, theoi.com is a really good resource. It cites the sources and has a collection of public domain translations of various bits of Greek and Roman literature as well as fragmentary texts and good quality images of statues and pottery, which are also really useful primary sources for myths themselves.

Here's a link to his main page:

If you want info on Orphic Dionysus that's a little harder because Orphism was a mystery cult and they put more emphasis on ritual and symbolism than telling stories. You can dig through the orphic hymns to find some info about Dionysus and other orphic gods

Orphic literature is difficult to find in general because a lot of the surviving writings by people who practiced the religion are fragmentary and translations of them are unpublished so you've gotta click through layers of 90s style websites and university libraries to read them if you aren't a professional archeologist who can read ancient Greek. But if you wanna get serious about it I would recommend digging into the reference section on the Orphism wikipedia page. That has led me to most of the useful information I've found.

If you're interested in current spirituality around Dionysus Bacchus, his modern worshipers often discuss stuff on the reddit page r/dionysus and in my experience they're generally helpful and chill people willing to answer questions and help you find things as long as you're respectful of them and what they're there to do.

47 notes · View notes

middle-earth-mythopoeia · 2 years

Note

In the absolute nicest way possible: how many languages do you speak? I know English, of course, and I have passable Spanish, and I’m simultaneously working on my Italian and French but I don’t even know enough to get by in either of those. And you’ve mentioned quite a few languages that you speak, or at least, that you’ve studied, and as someone who knows the struggles of trying to be multilingual, the amount you know is amazing and very, VERY impressive!

I also happen to love linguistics and language theory in general and I’d love to hear anything you might have to ramble about and discuss when it comes to linguistics in any languages, because it really is such a fascinating area of study.

Speaking of Tolkien linguistics specifically: I’m not someone who has actually really STUDIED a language. I grew up around Spanish speakers and did it for all four years of high school, but I never studied any of it from a scholarly perspective. It was always just learning about how to speak it, how to write it. What sort of linguistic quirks does Tolkien have when it comes to creating his languages? Do you see specific or obvious influences from real life in any of his languages? What are some of your favorite things about his languages, and the EVOLUTION of his languages?

Basically, please talk Tolkien linguistics at me!!

Hi, thank you so much for this ask! :)

Oh no, I don't really speak that many languages fluently! To start with, Latin I certainly don't speak, even though I took it the longest, but it's not a spoken language of course. (Plus when I was studying it in the later years and we were reading the Aeneid and stuff, you have like a page of vocabulary notes next to each page of Latin text to help you with the translations.)

I became reasonably conversational in Japanese after taking it for three years, but I'm definitely not fluent, and my skills are a bit rusty now. And I only took one year each of Russian and German, so that's not much. But I love learning languages and I would really like to polish up my Japanese, and revisit the other languages I've studied, plus study other ones :) I took at least one language each year of college, sometimes two at once, and I really miss it.

Yes yes yesssssssss let's talk about Tolkien languages. So, the obvious inspirations are clearly Finnish > Quenya and Welsh > Sindarin. But it's not a case of simple borrowing. Tolkien was too creative for that. Most people would struggle to create even one invented language. Tolkien, as you know, created multiple languages AND histories of how they all related to each other! I LOVE HIM! THIS MAN WAS INSANE! Exhibit A:

WHO DOES THIS? Also, he had beautiful handwriting.

Anyway. I don't even know where to START I have so many thoughts about Tolkien's languages. This will be very haphazard.

Okay, here's one that I think about a lot. Aegnor's name in Quenya was Aikanáro, which means "fell fire". The aika part means "fell, dire, terrible." Which is descended from an Eldarin root word gaya, "awe, dread". That same root word is the origin of part of the Sindarin word Belegaer. Beleg means great, and aer means sea. But aer is derived from that same word gaya, "awe, dread".

I just find this really cool because this is how etymology works in the real world! It's not a simple case of an ancient word for the sea turning into a modern word for the sea. It's a case of a word that means one thing being applied to another thing until it comes to mean something completely different than before. And I love that! And I especially love that you can trace root words from Eldarin into both Sindarin and Quenya!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE CREATED AN ACTUAL, FUNCTIONAL LANGUAGE TREE. I'M SCREAMING

Like, if you know enough words in Quenya, it's not hard to translate them into Sindarin, and vice versa, because they're actually, functionally related. IT'S GENIUS. IT'S AMAZING.

Not ONLY can you trace Eldarin root words into both Sindarin and Quenya, I also think it's so cool that Tolkien came up with multiple etymologies for things sometimes (party because he kept changing his mind!). For instance, he came up with both an Elvish etymology and a Valarin etymology for Taniquetil. In Quenya, it means "high snow peak". But another theory (yes... Tolkien came up with a theory for a word he created) is that it is simply the Elvish pronunciation of the Valarin word Dâhan-igwiš-telgûn. He came up with multiple (and conflicting) etymologies for the name Felagund too, among other things.

It will NEVER cease to amaze me that Tolkien not only made up etymologies for his invented words, he also sometimes went back and forth on which etymology was "right"! I remember reading a note in one of the volumes of the History of Middle-earth that said something along the lines of, "One of these etymologies for Balrog is correct, but I don't know which one." YOU MADE UP THE LANGUAGES, TOLKIEN! But I honestly love that he thought of himself more as a recorder of what was already there than the person making the decisions.

For example, there's that video of Tolkien writing in tengwar where he says, "My writing is very inferior to the Elves..." !!!!!!!!!! TOLKIEN, SIR. YOU INVENTED THIS ALPHABET. I love it so much. You have to watch it if you haven't seen it already! It's wonderful:

youtube

The way he talks about languages here is so quintessentially Tolkien... the delight connected with discovering a new language like a "new wine or some new sweetmeat or something". It reminds me of what he had to say about "cellar door"—and I'm sure this is not new to you, but for those who don't know, it was a phrase that he considered to have a beautiful sound independent from its meaning. He said in one of his lectures,

"Most English-speaking people...will admit that cellar door is 'beautiful', especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful than, say, sky, and far more beautiful than beautiful. Well then, in Welsh for me cellar doors are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant."

Hence, the influence of Welsh on Sindarin. In creating his Elvish languages, Tolkien wanted to create beautiful languages, but not in the sense that they would be frivolous or flowery, he wanted them to be beautiful in the sense that they would be very pleasing to the ear, like "cellar door". Well, I'm extremely biased, but I think he succeeded. He DEFINITELY succeeded.

Oh, and back to the inspiration for Tolkien's languages for a second, there's been more discussion of the phonetic/grammatical influence on his languages but less discussion on what influenced his alphabets. I want to know how he came up with tengwar! And sarati! I would think that Japanese and Chinese would have had some influence, not on the sound or grammar of the languages themselves, but on the script. Tolkien sometimes wrote the sarati (the alphabet that preceded tengwar) vertically, like Chinese and Japanese, and his visual art drew some inspiration from Chinese and Japanese paintings, so I wonder if there is a connection there. Some people have also noticed similarities between Chinese characters and Tolkien's symbol that represents his initials:

One thing that I find really amazing about Tolkien's languages is that they were so fully formed and so interconnected that there are some cases where there are probably connections that he just didn't spell out, leaving Tolkien scholars and linguists to come up with their own theories. For example the potential relation between Valarin and the language of Mordor! Basically, the Ring of Doom in Valinor was called the Máhanaxar, the first part of which is derived from Máhan, "chief Vala", a loan word from Valarin māchanāz. Máhanaxar is the Quenya pronunciation of the Valarin word Māchananaškad. Here's what's so cool... David Salo, a Tolkien linguist who worked on the LOTR movies, theorized that the second part of this word may mean "ring"—it is the name for the Ring of Doom, after all—meaning that the Valarin word naškad could be the root of nazg, as in Ash nazg durbatuluk and Nazgûl. It would make so much sense for the language of Mordor, which was created by Sauron, to have similarities to Valarin.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's very late so this post has no rhyme or reason, but when asked to talk about Tolkien's languages I will HAPPILY do so! :) Thank you for the ask!!!!!

#asks #thank you for the ask!#linguistics #Elvish #this post has no organization #I'm just rambling

93 notes · View notes

cssnder · 7 days

Note

I am invading askboxes today! Please accept this question;

What genre are you interested in writing in, but haven't tried?

Quite frankly, I don't even think I've read too many of them but historical fiction sounds very interesting to me. What I'll say might sound disturbing but I've always been morbidly interested in historical figures such as The Marquis de Sade, for example. Perhaps write something that's set during the events of 1789 in France, with themes of libertinism, depravation, morality and hedonism? And make it a novel in the vein of De Navarre's Heptameron at the beginning but have it slowly descend into a more complex narrative as the corruption grows? I'm thinking about it.

Another thing I would love to write is a Southern Gothic novel. I am really into novels such as A Choir of Ill Children, The Devil All The Time, Wise Blood, and Child of God. I am absolutely into it even, to the point that it is actually difficult to believe that I haven't written anything in this vein yet.

Romance is a genre I am not generally interested in, particularly because I think I am quite awful at it and also, I must admit it, this is not the genre of books I pick up of my own volition. Nevertheless, I like the idea of writing something deemed as ‘romance’, but that is just as evil, twisted and taboo as Brontë's Wuthering Heights or even Nabokov's Lolita — which, let's remind it for the late crowd, is not a romance. And to be honest, this is what I intend for my still untitled novel to be. I want to write an unfathomably terrible novel, to write evil in all its nuances. Not demons nor serial killers, for my conception of evil here is found in human relationships. I want violence, betrayal, incestuous love, perfidy! And I want to fool you into thinking this is a love story.

This last one is very ambitious, but if I ever feel bold enough, and if I ever get an idea that permits it, I'd like to write an epic poem or a play in verses — with poetic metre and all, I mean, and certainly not poetry à la Rupi Kaur. Works like Paradise Lost, The Divine Comedy, The Aeneid and The Iliad are often in my mind. There's tremendous beauty in them, tremendous humanity and violence also, in their poetry. This is something I'd be ready to spend over a decade on if I'm ever blessed with the inspiration to write it. Although, of course, I am aware this is perhaps not the kind of things a modern audience would find pleasure in reading.

I don't know how many of these I'll actually get to write, nor do I know if I'll write them at all, but we'll see. Fate always has an enchanting way of surprising us.

#Asks

3 notes · View notes

shivunin · 1 year

Text

🙤 10 Things about me 🙧

Rules: Share 10 facts about yourself and tag 10 other blogs! I want to get to know my mutuals, and the people I follow a little bit :) The facts can be about anything!

Tagged by @greypetrel here and @demandthedoodles for the personal blog (I tried to think of 20 things and do ten each but gbr I blanked on more than what i wrote. so i'm splitting the difference and putting fifteen things on one blog haha). Thank you both for the tag!

Tagging: @gaysebastianvael @star--nymph @jtownnn @scribbledquillz @heniareth @cullenvhenan @ndostairlyrium @palipunk @zenstrike (and @ you, especially if I forgot anyone! No pressure, as always)

I used to know how to play the French Horn, but now I only know how to play the French Horn badly

Technically graduated college before high school (by about a week)

I was briefly stuck in a peat bog in Ireland

Grew up in the countryside and might, if pressed, still be able to rope an immobile target

My love language is making people food (especially baked goods)

I cannot dance (Like at all. Rhythmic swaying is the best it gets) but I am a decent singer

There were brief concerns that I might have some kind of heart condition (it was anxiety lol) so I have watched my heart beat in real time via echocardiogram

I still have the first seven lines of the Aeneid memorized (along with everything else I had to recite for Latin)

I got married ~two days before my state shut down over Covid

I have a lot of texture and sound Things, but imo the texture and sound of unglazed pottery is the single individual Worst Thing in Existence

When I was a kid, my dad was really really into model trains. I had a special hat with “conductor” on it and I used to spend hours with him decorating the train table, cleaning the tracks, and listening to/singing train-themed music from the jazz age.

I loooove bees and bee-themed things and honey. I have six different sorts of honey in my cabinet right now (but my favorite is walnut honey, which is very dark and molasses-like)

I once rappelled down the side of a castle

I watched The Last Unicorn and Clue like a million times each as a kid and they have irrevocably shaped who I am as a person

I’ve been obsessed with running games for other people since I was little. I used to write treasure hunts for my cousins whenever we saw each other and murder mystery dinner parties when I got older and I’ve been DMing a D&D group for…geez almost seven years now.

#dixeram #long post #peat bogs though?? no joke. those things are Serious Business #i do think the baked goods thing is maybe inherited because my mom's whole side is like that too #if we aren't pressing food on you as you walk out the door we don't like you #retroactively tagging more people bc i would like to know y'all better c: but again no pressure

14 notes · View notes

f0xgl0v3 · 1 month

Text

Talking about Characters from the Iliad/Odyssey that I liked a lot :3

(Alternative: I just talk about people who were on the page for like. A minute and then nothing because I really just wanted to talk about characters who weren’t like. As well known as others?)

Every day I fight the urge to talk about how much I dislike Song Of Achilles-

Okay anyways I wanna talk about characters from the like Iliad-Odyssey (sadly not Aeneid because I haven’t read that yet) that I really like because they always balance out the anger I feel when thinking about the artificial divide that had to happen between Pat and Achilles over Breisis is TSOA because-

Okay, okay aaa that’s not what this is about. If anyone wants to hear my thoughts feel free to tell me because I’d gladly give my take as someone who just kinda knows the myths and vibes with them (there’s a reason the Iliad is my favorite book)

Anyways characters/probably historical figures(??) from the Iliad/trojan war era and the odyssey that I really liked beyond like. The main crew. While I ramble note that I am just someone that likes these guys. I’m not giving amazing riveting new information. I just don’t really want to write out the SoN re-imagining nor do I want to try and revisit the Machaon and Podalirius concept work I was doing (or potentially mess around with some Ulysses dies at dawn concepts because aaa-) okay- okay,

I (obviously) like Machaon and Podalirius. Like I said I have some concept sketches of them buried in my Ibis paint somewhere. I really liked seeing them mentioned in the Iliad when they were, and the two of them just feel like an interesting concept to explore if I ever do more like. Actual mythology not just Pjo stuff here on the blog. Also this is devoid of anything but they have good character to bounce off each other and they live in my brain.

Palamedes! He’s not actually in the Iliad but was a prince who was in the Trojan war. He was the dude that had to fetch Odysseus and he’s also really interesting and I like thinking of him as the ‘straight-man’ to all of Agamemnon’s stuff before Odysseus took over the roll. I also really like his story :3

Is Sarpedon one of the more well known characters? Idk. I talk about Hector on here too so really I break my own rules but I like Sarpedon as a concept (you can tell I like a lot of these characters for the ideas they give the brain.) He’s an interesting fellow. Maybe one day I’ll actually have something insightful to say about him.

Okay Hector. I really like Hector, I like seeing him in conflict with his brother. I like the ideas and how Hector acts and how he like does stuff narratively. I like him for the same reason I like Demetrius in Midsummer nights dream. They’re both kinda just guys who have to put up with everyone around them and it’s silly. He also has the whole really big stone thing during the siege(?) of the Achaeans camps that was fun.

Now are the Odyssey guys and it’s literally just two people who caught my attention in the Odyssey.

Antinous. He was really like ahfiakfbsjjs in my mind. Between getting off the high that was reading the Iliad and being like gently laid down in the Odyssey I really liked him? He sucked don’t get me wrong, but I liked that he sucked. He was a little trash guy and I liked that, hand him over.

Peisistratus. For anyone who forgot him or doesn’t know who he is this is Telemachus’s friend and traveling buddy from Pylos. He just kinda appears at some point and I really like him. He feels scruffy in my head and I think he’s a really interesting character! Also I like the friendship between Telemachus and Peisistratus.

Also shoutout to Antilochus who I didn’t put down but he was also really fun.

Okay wow! I said literally nothing this entire post. But uh. Maybe I’ll actually post things more often about stuff like the Iliad and Odyssey? I’m obviously no like classics expert but hey. I like random people that are in my stories. Also Antinous. I genuinely didn’t think I liked him that much but now that I’m thinking about him he’s really silly- haha funny scruffy man. If anyone asks he is synonymous with the like-

This cat right there. Make it have an ego and boom. Antinous deserves like everything that’s coming to him in the Odyssey and it’s really fun to just watch him rampage

Okay I’m really tired goodnight

#idk how to tag this #hehe :3 #the iliad #the odyssey #no substance post #I’ve only done tags for Pjo what do I use-???#oh well #okay bye

4 notes · View notes

soleminisanction · 9 months

Note

Ask game: What’s a fic idea that you have but haven’t written yet?

Ooo, this is the perfect opportunity to talk about everything I'd like to do with Father of Heroes (my Batman/Percy Jackson crossover where Dick, Jason, Cass, and Tim are demigods with different divine parents but Bruce as their shared mortal father) but haven't gotten to yet because of my inability to focus. I actually have four full stories in mind for that series that I just, haven't been able to get down on paper:

The one most likely to get finished next has the working title Cass's Cabin. It's a one- or maybe two-shot told from Cass's POV about Chiron coming to the Manor to talk Bruce into sending the kids to Camp Half-Blood, then jumps forward a few years to the first summer Cass and Tim are allowed to go, and features Cass wandering off from the group to locate the Harpocrates cabin, which is naturally enough a secret place that only she can find.

After that is the big one, Titans' Quest, which is holding me up in part because I feel like it's really needed to set up the other two stories, but it'd also be the longest one (like, at least as long as one of the PJ novels!) and it's the one I'm least interested in. It'd be focused on a 16-year-old Dick and a crew of mostly the Fab Five (plus recently-disabled clear-eyed mortal Barbara) going on a loosely Aeneid-inspired quest with prophecies and twists I won't spoil here, but the most important thing is that it ends with Dick moving out of the Manor and in with his friends, and also switching from Robin to Nightwing, much to the distress of his siblings.

Following close after that one would be a currently-unnamed short story focusing on Jason taking up the Robin mantle in secret, not knowing that Dick had dropped the name in part because Babs (who, naturally enough, became an oracle in the last story) had made a prophecy about Robin never returning after his next quest. Which he doesn't, he disappears at the end of the story.

And then the last one, also currently unnamed, would be a multi-chapter story about Cass and Tim running away from home because they're both having magical demigod dreams about Jason being alive and they have to go save him from the thing that made him disappear in the last story, elaborating on events that were hinted at in Gossamer Bonds.

So yeah, there's a LOT that I've wanted to do with that AU. It's just... focus is haaaaaaard. ^.^;

#ask meme #ask me stuff #my writing #father of heroes #dc comics #batfam #percy jackson #tim drake #cassandra cain #dick grayson #jason todd

12 notes · View notes

smalltownstudying · 9 months

Text

Quick update:

First things first: Thank you so much to whoever sent me their coconut & chocolate ganache cake recipe, it made me really happy to receive it and I already set a date to make it with a friend in two weeks :) I hope it turns out pretty so I can answer the ask with a nice picture to honor it…

I’ve been doing some reading about the Olympic Gods for my exam and I’ve just started reading the Aeneid. I’ve just read the Introduction so far but I found particularly interesting the bits about Virgil’s personality. My girlfriend has joined in and is reading it with me so I’m excited

Also, I made a cake yesterday but I had a problem with the oven’s temperature and it didn’t come out very nicely… So here’s a picture of an apple cake I made a few weeks ago for my dad’s birthday :)

I hope everyone is doing great and I hope whoever reads this gets to eat a lot of cake without their belly hurting and to read undisturbed for hours and hours

#recipes #baking #studyblr #bookblr #classics #cooking #books #reading #study motivation #cake #bettythoughts

7 notes · View notes

catilinas · 2 years

Note

I'm currently reading lattimore's iliad, and I'm planning to read an oresteia translated by Anne Carson. What are some other works you'd recommend/love? And the translation you like. I want to read up on the classics as I didn't really go to school past 14, and I love how passionate you are about them, so I thought I'd ask, thanks either way!

hi! sorry for taking one million years to reply to this :/ every time i try to make a Brief list of my fave texts i explode. also please bear in mind that this is a list of Texts I Personally Really Like and not a list of Texts That Are The Hashtag Classical Canon.

if you enjoy(ed. it's been a while) the iliad and An Oresteia then probably try the odyssey? i like emily wilson's translation and also ive said this before but her introduction is soooooo good. she has a translation of the iliad coming out next year and i'm probably more excited to read her introduction to it than like. the actual translation

also in the genre of epic (the best genre) i actually prefer latin epic so. definitely the aeneid (post on different translations here!) which is also very uhhh foundational for so so much of subsequent latin literature. including my other favourite epic poem, lucan's pharsalia (post on translations again!) which is a historical epic about the civil war between caesar and pompey.

this is where the list gets very much into things i personally like. the pharsalia is so cool to me because it's not a history/historiography but it Does do weird things To history and gets away with them because of its genre. veryyy similarly, aeschylus' persians is a tragedy (the only surviving tragedy based on historical events!) about the persian response to defeat at the battle of salamis. i don't have a preferred translation for this one just read whatever! but definitely read some sort of introduction or the wikipedia page because it's weird for a Lot of reasons. also necromancy happens. and there's boats. what more can anyone want!

i've also been really into livy's ab urbe condita atm. it's a history of rome but the first 5 books especially are very. well i just don't think that actually happened. BUT the early roman like. political myth making is cool actually! (if only because if you read it then when lucan is like oh and the ghost of curius dentatus was there you can be like oh i know who that guy is! a Lot of latin lit involves invoking historical exempla and livy is a major source for a Lot of those.) i actually care very little about greek myth (and the take that the romans just 'stole' greek religion. like what) because i think the romans' mythologisation of e.g. lucius junius brutus is way more fun. but ALSO livy was writing a history starting from the Foundation of rome at a time when augustus was 'ReFounding' rome so you're always a bit like. hmmmmmm. or like you read about coriolanus in livy and you're like oh wow foreshadowing of the political situation that would later lead to the civil wars! but then you remember that livy was writing it After the civil wars and then you fall into the livian timeloop and then you explode.

ok now ignore livy because my favourite historian is actually sallust. would recommend william batstone's translation of (and introduction to) the bellum catilinae. Catilina Is There. sallust's catiline is soooooo sexy like his countenance was a civil war itself! enough eloquence but not enough wisdom! animus audax subdolus varius! he's haunted by sulla's ghost! he's didn't cause the fall of the republic so much as he was a symptom of it! he's an antihero! he's cicero's mimetic double! he probably doesn't drink blood! he would have died a beautiful death IF it had been on behalf of his country (except that quote is actually from florus maybe via livy lol)! He Did Nothing Wrong. you want to read the bellum catilinae soooooo bad. also it is v fun to read alongside with cicero's catilinarian orations (the invective speeches against catilina). i think i read the oxford world's classics translation of those but i Cannot remember who it is by.

also you know what i really like what i've read of florus' epitome of roman history which is maybe kind of a summary of livy but also florus is totally doing his own thing (he is sooo influenced by lucan! nice!) highly recommend the (relatively brief) section on the first punic war. it does cool things with boats.

i also love plutarch's life of cato the younger!!! one of my favourite ancient texts of all time ever. like a) it's plutarch and he is fun. would recommend the life of alexander the great as well tbh. and b) it's cato the younger and he is so so so fucked up.

finallyyyyyy bcs this is getting long. the poetry of catullus (and a post on translations is here!) like It's Catullus. the original poor little meow meow. what more can i say

#please be aware also that i made this list via What Came Into My Brain and in a few hours i'll probably be like #how the fuck did i forget like. idk. seneca's thyestes #actually real and true. senecan tragedy does also slap. emily wilsons translations are good also.#book list #beeps

32 notes · View notes

classicschronicles · 1 year

Text

Hi lovelies,

Okay so my first A-level is on Tuesday and it is the World of the Hero paper, basically the Iliad and the Aeneid. I was getting on with my Aeneid revision when I realised that, other than the fact that I am in love with him, I actually don’t know that much about Turnus. So today I’m going to try and write about Turnus in the hopes that it forces me to go and read up on him. (Also I need to revise my Homeric allusion and the comparisons between the Greek and Roman hero so imma throw that in too).

Okay so to start off with some basic info, Turnus is the Prince of the Rutilian Tribe and the leader of the antagonistic forces against the Trojans. Like all main heroes, he is a great warrior and superior to everyone else in combat. Now despite all of this, it is important to note that Turnus doesn’t actually want to fight. Let me explain.

Turnus is engaged to Lavinia, the princess of Latium, a neighbouring Italian tribe. Aeneas arrives and to cut a long story short her dad changes his mind and says “nah you’re gonna marry Aeneas instead”. Also random but Turnus is also meant to be the best looking of all the Italians, so smash ig. But anyways, when Aeneas steals his fiancé, Turnus doesn’t really care, he lets him have her and makes his peace with it because he knows there is nothing he can do against fate. However, surprise surprise, enter Juno. She’s all like “nawh come on I need someone to fight the Trojans bc I hate peace”, so she sends the Fury Alecto to infect Turnus with a lust for war. So anyways, he wakes up the next day and he’s like “hey that’s my fiancé” and proceeds to start the second Trojan war to win her back. If this sounds oddly familiar, it should.

The purpose of Turnus’ character in the second half of the Aeneid is very similar to Dido’s character in the first half. Like Dido, is an individual who has been corrupted by the gods- more specially Juno- and lacks any autonomy. Therefore, he follows what he thinks is his will to the point of excess. Much like Dido’s furor for lust, Turnus’ furor is militant. It is Turnus who then goes on to raise the flag of war and instigate chaos. When Alecto burns him with a desire for war he begins to exhibit multiple character flaws, such as disorder. His individualism is diametrically opposed to Aeneas who is dutiful and embodies pietas, supposedly.

Book 9 is truly the point where we get a sense of just how deep Alecto’s influence on Turnus is, as he becomes depraved and thirsty for blood. Any sense of the moral compass he demonstrated in book 7 is gone as he flaunts the death of his Trojan enemies by raising their heads on spears for all the Trojans to see. Aeneas, by the way, is missing for all of book 9 so Turnus has no equal and therefore becomes the most deadly man in the war. As soon as Turnus learns of Aeneas’ absence he leads his army towards the Trojan camp and when he can’t find a way in, he sets fire to their ships (the ships are immortal or some shit tho so they’re fine). Night then descends, and the Latins attack the Trojan fortresses. Turnus then sees a high tower standing just outside the main gate which he sets on fire and then they get in and kill a bunch of Trojans. The Trojans then chase the Latins away but when they seal the gates they accidentally lock Turnus inside with them. A Trojan is then like “you can’t win in the camp of your enemies”. To which Turnus then says this really arrogantly hot thing, ssshhhh I know he’s red flag but it’s like one of my favourite colours. Virgil writes, “Turnus replied, smiling calmly: ‘If there is any courage in you, then come and fight. You will soon be able to tell Priam that here too you found an Achilles!’”. Eventually he does realise that he is outnumbered and he escaped.

In book 10, Turnus carries on with his slaughter spree. Turnus spots Aeneas’ returning ships and leads his troops towards the beach so that he can confront them, battle commences. Pallas fights a little too well and attracts the attention of Turnus. Turnus challenges Pallas to a duel and Pallas, desperate to prove himself, agrees. There’s this really funny bit where he’s fighting Turnus but stops to ogle him (“Pallas marvelled at these proud commands and stood amazed at the sight of Turnus, running his eyes all over that mighty body,”- me too bro). There is then this great Homeric smilie about Turnus as a lion and Pallas a bull. Turnus kills Pallas and steals his sword belt, which is actually Aenas, as a prize. The stealing of the sword belt is the action that later seals his death. Again, if this is sounding a little familiar, it should. Aeneas hears about what Turnus has done and goes berserk, but Juno asks that Jupiter spare Turnus (he can’t do this but he does agree to prolong his life a little). Anyways, Juno created a phantom Aeneas and so Turnus goes chasing after it and follows it onto some ships which then set sail and send him away from Aeneas. This is that classic argument of are the gods self seeking? In this instance yes, Juno humiliates Turnus by making his follow a phantom Aeneas so that when he escapes he looks like a coward. She protects his physically, yes, but his honour is shot to pieces. Also she doesn’t actually care for Turnus, she just cares that he can keep fighting the Trojans.

So then book 11 rolls around. Messengers arrive from the Latin camp and ask for a 12 says truce so that both sides and can bury their dead. The Latins all think that Turnus should fight for Lavinia in single combat against Aeneas rather than risk any more deaths. A man called Drances blames the whole war on Turnus arrogance, at which point I wanna point out that Turnus is a baby girl and that non of this is his fault, but actually Juno and Alecto’s. Turnus, however, says that if the Latins want single combat then he will fight Aenas without fear. The way he says this, though, is very sarcastic and arrogant and exemplified how reckless he can be. But at this point, Trojans start marching towards the city so the Latins have to fight again.

Now the dreaded book 12. Turnus decides that he has to fight Aeneas in single combat, and when urged to surrender by Lavinia’s father he declines (again sound familiar?). Juno worries about Turnus because she thinks Aeneas might outmatch him and so she calls Juturna (Turnus’ divine sister) to watch out for her brothers safety. Juturna, however, doesn’t want her brother to fight in the duel and so she disguises herself as a Latin officer in order to break the truce and start all out war. Some stuff happens, Aeneas gets shot in the leg and has to leave and it gives Turnus some renewed hope. Aeneas returns to battle and both he and Turnus kill a lot of men. Turnus then hears cries of suffering from his fellow Italians and calls for the Trojan siege of Latium to end, and for the duel to commence. Okay so quick play by play, Aeneas and Turnus toss sears, Turnus sword breaks at the hilt, Turnus runs from Aeneas, Juturna gives him a real sword. Aeneas then casts a spear which hits Turnus in the leg and Turnus tumbles to the ground. He begs Aeneas for mercy in the name of his father. Aeneas is prepared to show mercy, but remember that sword belt I mentioned earlier. Well Aeneas sees the sword belt and then goes batshit insane and kills Turnus on his knees whilst he begs for mercy.

Okay so now some quick analysis, because apparently I have to be able to do that. The characterisation of Turnus is interesting in that is mirrors Dido. We as readers admire both leaders in the few pages that we see them before they are plagued by the gods. The branding of Turnus with lust for war strips his of any autonomy and from that point in book 7 onwards he looses any semblance of his own characteristics. He goes from being clement and diplomatic to being bloodthirsty and arrogant. And yet, the reader is never truly able to hate him. Much like Dido, we may tire of him sometimes but we always keep a trace of admiration and at times, awe or pity. For example, whilst me may not agree with his actions in the Trojan camp, one cannot deny that they were impressive. But the relief one usually feels when reading about the death of Turnus was not present in Turnus’ death. At that moment in time we feel sorrow for him and admiration that, despite knowing he would not win, he still fought Aeneas. There is one suggestion that Turnus is the anti-hero. The villain we cannot hate, and often find ourselves liking more than the actual hero. That is certainly true for Turnus as there are times that the reader cannot stand Aeneas, for example his human sacrifice and murder of Mezentius in book 10.

The other thing that is really interesting about Turnus is trying to decipher the Homeric allusions that Virgil was trying to demonstrate. Every time I say ‘sounds familiar’ it’s because it is Virgil’s way of making throwbacks to the Iliad. So for example, Turnus (Hector) taking Pallas (Patroclus) sword belt/ armour that belonged to Aeneas (Achilles). But the thing that I find really interesting is the way that Virgil does it. When we read the Iliad, sure there are times when he winds us up, but we don’t hate Achilles at any point. We understand his rampage against the Trojans, we understand (although we might not agree with it) why he did what he did to Hector. But when it comes to Aeneas, do we really even find him that likeable? To be honest, I don’t think so, although your opinion might be different. But a lot of the reason I think for my point of view is because of the characterisation of both Pallas and Turnus as parallels of Patroclus and Hector respectively. What I mean by that is when we read about the death of Pallas it is not nearly as emotional as the death of Patroclus. We see the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus, even in death, we spend 16 books of the epic getting to know Patroclus. Whereas, when it comes to Pallas, we know him for about 2 books before he is killed. His character is not developed in the same way. And that’s not to say that Virgil isn’t capable of creating the same level of sorrow, I mean think of the deaths of Nisus and Euryalus who were mentioned all of twice. In all honesty, I think Virgil did this deliberately.

Then there is the question of Turnus and Hector. We feel an immense amount of sympathy for both, but even still we understand Achilles actions far more than Aeneas. Hector stripped Patroclus of his armour, tried to keep the body for the Trojans, flaunts the armour of Achilles, and he does this all of his won accord, not because he is being used by the gods. Turnus, on the other hand, whilst he does take a prize, he doesn’t strip Pallas bare, he simply takes a sword belt. Turnus returns the body to Pallas’ father, he allows 12 days for burial, and on top of that, non of this was of his own will.

I think ultimately, a lot of it comes down to the characterisation of Greek and Roman heroes. Where a Greek hero fights for personal fame and glory and honour, the Roman hero is not as equally motivated by the spoils of war, but rather pietas (duty to the gods, family, and country). And therefore, when Turnus fights we see him as fighting for his people and giving life for his people (roman word- devotio).

Basically, Turnus big slay I love him and icl it is too late for me to say anything more intelligent than that. If you’re still here I hope you learned something new or at least enjoyed my ramblings. Hope you all have a lovely rest of your weekend <3

#classical studies #classics #dark acamedia #greek mythology #ancient rome #roman mythology #ancient greece #ancient world #history #hellenic deities #the aeneid #turnus #hes so babygirl #a levels #killing me #not softly

7 notes · View notes

multi-lefaiye · 2 years

Note

climbing into ur ask box

hi hello i am giving u an aeneid excerpt! i've decided to somewhat arbitrarily offer you the first seven or so lines of the first volume. that's a big excerpt, but it's fine it's fine <3

SO i don't have much in the way of Big Reasoning for this, but i associate u a lot with Creation if that makes sense so i thought. oh wait neat idea, i can assign nico the part of the aeneid that's just the author asking the muses for inspiration to create this work of propaganda epic literature!! trust me okay the vibes are important i prommy

Arma virumque canō, Trōiae quī prīmus ab ōrīs

Ītaliam fātō profugus Lāvīniaque vēnit

lītora, multum ille et terrīs iactātus et altō

vī superum, saevae memorem Iūnōnis ob īram,

multa quoque et bellō passus, dum conderet urbem

īnferretque deōs Latiō; genus unde Latīnum

Albānīque patrēs atque altae moenia Rōmae.

and the rough translation of these lines:

I sing of arms and the man, who first from the borders of Troy, exiled by fate, came to Italy and the Lavinian shores, he was thrown about much both on land and on sea by the power of the gods, because of the mindful anger of savage Juno, he, having suffered much besides in war, until he would build a city and bring the gods to Latium; from whence came the race of Latins and Alban fathers and the high walls of Rome.

so the muses are not specifically addressed in this excerpt, but the beginning of The Aeneid is just virgil explaining the rough plot and asking the muses for inspiration so he can tell the epic mythology surrounding the founding of Rome (that isn't propaganda in the slightest /s)

anyway for commentary, uhhh i'm taking this a little from the Dickinson source i used during college, which is also where i got the full text to grab excerpts from, but i'm not gonna just copy paste and i'm gonna explain in my own words.

so a big thing i want to call attention to for this is the placement of the word 'arma' in the first line.

in latin, word order is generally pretty flexible--not to say it never matters, but it's one of those languages where essentially if all the words are there you can get what's going on, regardless of their order. this is something a lot of poets writing in latin took advantage of, because the placement of specific words can change the connotation.

in this instance, arma (arms, as in weapons) being placed first suggests that this is going to be a story that centers much around war and violence. which, honestly, it does!

for those who aren't familiar with the aeneid, essentially the protagonist, aeneas, is a survivor of the fall of the city of Troy. this epic is, in some ways, a sequel/response to the illiad, following the idea that rome was founded by trojans. (should be noted that the city of troy is fictional, though.)

and this isn't part of the commentaries on the Dickinson site, but i also want to highlight the honestly pretty imperialistic nature of some of these lines, especially in reference to aeneas bringing "the gods" to the people of Italy. because there were already people living in italy before aeneas got there, and the last volumes of this story go over that in great detail.

i will say, in this context, yes, this is referring to specific gods worshipped by the trojans. HOWEVER, the phrasing, imo, places them on the level of importance that they are The gods, and that he is bringing them to the (implied) godless people of italy. while for the most part the aeneid is actually REALLY generous in its depictions of cultures aside from roman culture, i also think it's important to keep in mind the fact that this epic is entirely propaganda (specifically for the emperor augustus), and that does shine through at times like this. the aeneid justifies roman imperialism both subtly and very, very obviously.

finally, i also want to note here that the last line about Rome's 'high' walls is interesting to me, because if i'm remembering right, the word 'alta' is sometimes used in poetry as a euphemism for the gods. i could be wrong, but, well. y'know. this whole thing exists to explain why the romans are the best, so that may have been very intentional.

#talk to the bunnykitty #nciko #ask game #long post #idk how coherent this is lmao #i just really enjoy talking about latin and analyzing latin poetry #and i don't do it anymore #and i want to do it again #follow for more aeneid hot takes (do not) (you will be disappointed)#i should find the most blatant propaganda excerpts lmao that might be fun #multi speaks some latin #that's just my latin tag now ig

5 notes · View notes