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ribesrubrum · 2 months

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under the mask of pride (fear rises as a guide)

//so i feel...honestly, a little guilty for how little i've been around as of late, especially since things are picking up drama-wise. irl debuffs aplenty will do that to you. but i wanted to get some writing out to kind of describe Carmine's mental state, so. here we are.

//fair warning: this fic is technically kind of offscreen rp in that it's at least canon that ren and carmine talked like this, though i'd greatly prefer it not be spread as a rumor or leak or something. but it also does talk about some heavy topics; namely very heavy self loathing, some mention of parental abandonment and abuse (heehoo headcanoning carmine's parents/why she's like this), mentions of bullying, self harm in the form of hair pulling/trichotillomania, and uh. ...look i'm not gonna beat around the bush, i don't wanna edgelord, i wanna treat this with respect but i also don't wanna sugarcoat it, this gets about as close to implying carmine was about to take drastic measures to alleviate her suffering as i'm comfortable with getting. the less implicit version of this warning will be in the tags. please uncollapse the tags before reading. dead dove: do not eat is in full effect here.

//this is going to be pretty heavy, and also stupid long. feel free to click if you're okay with handling that.

Carmine's listlessness has only grown as the days have worn on, she's finding. It doesn't help that her knuckles are still raw from punching her wall a day prior--she's thankful it seems like the wall fix went off without a hitch, and all she got was a rather stern talking to about making noise so late at night before the teacher that spoke with her went off. Cardigan's been sticking close to her side since Leavanny elected to stay near Kieran at least for a time, but even now, she feels pathetic for it.

Pathetic that she can't help her brother. Pathetic that she can't help her girlfriend, who simply wants to make sure that the whole club that they built together and maintained isn't destroyed because of Drayton's boneheaded move. If Carmine looked deep within herself, she'd be looking at Kiki's actions too, that he allowed this, that he's possibly setting himself up to lose everything. That Drayton's encouraging it, and she's been more on edge than ever and ready to tear someone apart for it. If she doesn't wind up punching him out when all is said and done, she's going to be very surprised.

Cardigan trills a bit from beside her, and she looks down to the flower-less Lilligant, pausing a bit as she looks down. She recognizes that trill, and knows that she's probably being concerning right now. Emotional regulation is still something that Carmine struggles with, even now, knowing that she can't and she shouldn't scream her feelings out to try and get people to understand, that yelling doesn't help, that you have to see other's perspectives. Even if sometimes, they trounce all over your own. Carmine looks down to Cardigan, giving the Lilligant a tired smile.

"...Sorry, Cardi. I know I'm probably not making your job very easy." It's soft in a way Carmine never usually is. In a way that Carmine never allows herself to be--she's all bravado and arrogance because for years, that's what kept her safe. That's what kept her and her brother safe, even if it clipped his wings and made everyone around her hesitant to approach either of them. It was safety, the thorns and briars that she metaphorically planted around herself, letting them spread where she walked and lashing them out at anyone who would even for a second think of hurting her. It was safety, it was lonely, but it was home.

...It's no wonder she likes grass types so much. The Lilligant's gaze only seems to get sadder when she says that much, gentle, leafy hands going to take one of her own as Cardigan stares up at her, as if trying to communicate something with those amber eyes that almost seem pleading. Carmine's hand trembles a bit, because once again she doesn't understand, she can't understand, why can't she--

Carmine hears footsteps, and immediately, her guard is up. She's immediately ready to go on the attack, in case anyone saw her, in case she has to defend being out for a walk in the Canyon Biome with her therapy Pokemon, something she's already received plenty of jabs about--but no. There's a familiar mop of blue hair, and that silly, dorky looking Orthworm is following them and waving with them, as Terry and Mio seem to take over where they left off. Ren's an idiot, in the bluntest of terms, but there's a sense of safety that comes with them. That they can see her, at her worst and most cruel, and laugh and let it slide off their back so easily. Because they were her age once. Her gender once, even, though that's largely irrelevant. They always seem so certain and keep their spirits so high, even if she's the only one they've trusted with some of their worries. And Carmine in turn, has trusted Ren with some of hers.

...They're about as disconnected from this entire situation as they can be, even though they met during that trip. It's as Carmine is contemplating going up to them and being a bother and just turning heel and walking away that the choice is made for her, as they turn around, start walking and see her--

"Oh! Miss Carmine, hey!"

She could walk away. She could just tell them to piss off and lash out, and destroy one of the few unconnected relationships she has with this entire mess, one of the few things that's genuinely hers. She could recede inside herself, lock herself away like she did after she reached her breaking point, when she nearly...

"Hey, Ren. Finally getting your nose out of those cameras?"

The barb is light, half-hearted at best, and could probably make someone deeply passionate a little upset at being teased. And yet Ren takes it in stride, laughing easily as they walk up, Lulu going to Cardigan and just kind of talking with the Lilligant for a moment. "You know it, girlie! Arc, all of these worms are doin' so well, they ain't overwhelmin' the environment nor gettin' overwhelmed themselves--everything's so perfect right now, it's really amazing! Ohh, I gotta tell you about some of the babies, they're just--"

For a brief moment, Carmine thinks she can just get away with Ren going on a hyperfixation ramble and forgetting her own worries in favor of focusing on the things her rival has accomplished. Because it is quite the accomplishment, even if Carmine's definitely harped on them for trying to downplay it before. But their gaze goes to Cardigan and Lulu, falling quickly and their words fading off as Carmine looks, and now everyone looks concerned.

Carmine's posture tightens as she realizes she can't get away with this so easily. She feels their gaze dart back to her, and she's already sure her expression is stormy, and...

"...I think that's enough about me." Fuck. Their voice has softened considerably, and she knows she's done for. "Miss Carmine, are you--"

"I'm fine, Ren." It comes out too sharp, too defensive, and there's a brief moment where she's hoping Ren will just walk away at that. She's shaking, she knows she is, and her gaze averts a bit only to feel not just Cardigan, but Lulu--that stupid, brainless worm--take her hands, wrapping them both in leaves and tendrils, and it feels disgusting and bitter and she wants to run and hide, she wants to tear her hands away--

"...Miss Carmine." Ren's voice sounds so soft, so...sad for a moment, and there's a pause as more footsteps can be heard--Carmine doesn't even bother to flinch, but she feels a tug on both of her hands as she opens her eyes, seeing Ren nod at both Pokemon before looking to her with a smile that's both soft and sad.

"Come on, Miss Carmine. Let's go somewhere else to talk, okay?"

---------------------------------------------

The trip back to her room is arduous, even though it barely takes more than fifteen minutes. Every agonizing second feels like a walk of shame, but she realizes something along the way. It's only so long because Ren knows their way around here like the back of their hand now; they know where people aren't, because they aren't some social butterfly who likes to help in every club. They take her through an easy but arduous path that leaves her alone in her head, and it takes a couple of second after Ren's stopped for her to stop too.

"...You must have a lot on yer mind to be makin' mistakes like this, Miss Carmine." Ren's voice is soft, non-judgemental, and they don't even flinch when she turns back to face them with something of a severe expression. It's the kind of care and kindness she doesn't deserve, she's sure, but as she unlocks the door to her room and ushers Ren and their Pokemon inside, it's something she finds herself internally thankful for.

Carmine's room is a mess, perhaps moreso than usual. Stress eating will do that, bags of chips and other sweet and savory alike strewn about. Cardigan doesn't even seem surprised, but Lulu, bless his stupid little soul, seems taken aback by it as he draws himself inside. She hears Ren's footsteps as they close the door behind them, a small sound escaping them as they walk in front of Carmine.

"You want some help cleanin' off that bed of yours?" Carmine looks over at her messy, disheveled bed, and it's many snacks and wrappers as well. It's an absolute Tepigsty, more than she'd ever allow anyone to see. She feels herself listlessly nod her head as she looks over to Ren, who's concern hasn't dampened even an inch as they move to help in an instant. She's thankful she's got a vacuum and that it's early enough in the afternoon that nobody's likely around the dorms; Cardigan and Lulu both assist as well as they help clear it off, at least enough to let Carmine sit down on it once they're all done.

Cardigan hops on the bed with Carmine as she sits down, and Lulu rests his head near Ren's feet as he gets himself comfortable on the floor, and Ren looks to her, finally broaching the topic, "Ya look like you got a lot on yer mind, Miss Carmine. You sure everything's okay?"

It takes Carmine a lot longer than she'd like to respond. Cardigan gently takes hold of one of Carmine's hands, gently petting it with her own leafy appendage. The eventual response she settles on is a bitter laugh.

"...I don't know." It comes out so soft and uncertain, it feels like she's a different person entirely when she says it. "I thought everything was fine. I thought...I don't know, I thought that everything would be okay. I really let myself believe that now that I made up with my brother, that everything would go back to some sort of normal, but..."

Carmine's voice pitches higher and higher with every word, and she finds herself shaking a bit. She can't even look at her rival right now, how pathetic can she even get?

"Oh, Carmine..." There's not even that weirdly respectful 'Miss' at the beginning of her name, and a part of her hates that, that she's being seen as sympathetic for even a moment when she doesn't deserve it, she doesn't deserve this, if she'd just trusted Kiki-- "Nothin' is ever that easy, but I remember how relieved ya were when Kiki actually bothered to respond."

"Yeah." Carmine confirms that much, listlessly, but a ghost of a smile traces her face. "...It really filled me with hope, for a second. That maybe things could go back to some sort of normal, that I could really see Kiki for all he is. It wanted to be seen and come into it's own, and I...I didn't know how to do that, but..."

"...But you wanted to try." Ren's words softly intervene. Carmine nods shortly after.

"I wanted to try. I still do. But it's...that big fight happened, and now everything's just...it feels like we're right back where we started."

Carmine's voice breaks a little bit, and try as she might to rein it in, it's harder to get back on track. At this point, she feels, she might as well just give up.

"...I don't know what to do."

Carmine's gaze stays down, because she can't look at Ren, she can't, she just can't. But Ren's words; soft, steady words, a contrast to the cold steel they loved so dearly, pour out none the less.

"...It's a tough position to be in, Carmine. Ya got your brother and it's undyin' need to win on one side, and ya got Miss Amarys tryin' her damnedest to hold everyone together on the other, yeah?"

"Yeah. And it's like--I don't want to destroy the relationship I have with my brother. I want to rebuild it, to let it come into it's own. But I...my beloved is right, even if I worry about saying it. She tries so hard to uphold the rules of the club, of this school, and these--these jerks keep sending her horrible, disgusting things for it. And for what?"

A quiet settles over the room, and she's sure Ren expects her to elaborate, but she doesn't. Not even she knows what, and she's sure Ren gets it by the time they speak up next.

"...I ain't gonna go makin' any assumptions, but...I don't even think I know the answer to that, Carmine."

It's soft, when Ren admits it. Sad, even. She can only imagine what their face is doing right now, and it gets Carmine to laugh a bit. Bitterly, wretchedly.

"Neither do--neither do I, Ren. And do you know how much that kills me?"

Carmine's voice pitch rises, and she feels her free hand drawing into her hair, Cardigan's trills of concern becoming more apparent as she tries to hop over and dislodge it--

"I love Kiki! I love Amarys! I love them both more than life itself and I--if I say anything at all, I'm going to hurt one of them. Both of them, even, maybe, whether I intend it or not! And the little Mandibuzzes on here, flying around and trying to hurt everyone in this school, they'll be on it in an instant, they'll--they'll hurt them both, they'll turn them both against each other, and I--if I do anything, they already know it's my fault from the start, that all of this is, that I was stupid and boneheaded and lied to my brother because I was scared it could've gotten hurt--"

"Miss Carmine."

"--and I told Juliana to lie, yes, I got so worried that Kiki would just get so excited and that Ogerpon could've hurt or done something worse to it, but then my grandfather told me to keep my mouth shut about helping Ogerpon and I--I didn't--"

"Miss Carmine."

"--And then it--it stole her mask, and I've never been more angry in my life at it, and it just--it keeps stomping on others feelings, and it won't believe anyone, and I don't know what I can actually do--"

"Miss Carmine, please--!"

"WHAT?! WHAT DO YOU WANT?!"

Carmine's shriek practically causes her to lunge at her friend, the firm tone in that moment making her see someone else. Wide yellow eyes fiercely stare at bright blue ones, as Ren startles a bit at the ferocity in her tone. The quiet over the room is tense and uneasy, and Ren already sees a few strands got torn out because of it. They take a gentle breath in as realization hits Carmine, but she's still for a moment. Still as Cardigan trills with concern, as Lulu looks up with even more concern on his dopey little face, though he looks ready to hold Carmine back more than anything.

Ren's surprisingly quick on the uptake, at least, and they speak up again before Carmine can.

"Isn't that somethin' you should be askin' of yourself?"

Ren's words are confusing, and the confusion must be apparent on her face as they reach her ears. Ren gently breathes, and continues, "I mean it. You've been talkin' this entire time about Kiki this, Amarys that, and I ain't gonna disparage you for that. Sure puts any rumors of ya bein' self centered to bed, not that I believed 'em anyway. But..."

"What is it that ya want, at the end of it all? Isn't that a question that's come up even once for ya...?"

Carmine can't even believe what she's hearing.

"Why does that matter? I've taken what I wanted for years, I--"

"Okay, you hold on a second here." Ren's words are still soft, but there's a firmness to them now that cuts through her words like butter. "When did that stop bein' a question you asked yerself?"

"It doesn't matter--"

"It absolutely does matter? Girl, yer gettin' tugged in two different directions and ya sound like yer long past the end of yer rope."

"Why does it matter when I've been nothing but a selfish bitch this entire time?!"

And that startles Ren enough to actually get them to stop for a second, completely taken aback. Carmine's gaze goes downward, and she's shaking, horribly.

"Those anons were right, okay?! I ruined Kiki's one good friendship because I'm a bonehead, I'm a failure of a girlfriend who can't even help the girl I love so much with her anger and problems other than just being there like a useless cardboard cutout, I deserve this, all of it, even all of the hateful words and it would've just been so much easier if I had--"

Something stops Carmine in her tracks from speaking. Multiple of them, really. Cardigan's hands, for starters, wrapped firmly around one of her own hands; two of Lulu's tendrils wrap around the other, and even Carmine has to admit that she's surprised by how little an Orthworm's head seems to weigh as he rests his head on one of her legs with concern.

The final thing, that she didn't even hear, is Ren getting up and putting a firm, supportive hand on her shoulder, tiny as said hand is. When she actually gets a look at their face, they look like they're about to cry, and for a brief moment she wonders if she's just gone and ruined another friendship.

"Don't--don't you dare talk about yerself like that again, you hear me?"

Oh. That's not what she expected at all; Ren's voice practically trembles as they say that, and it hits something in her. Carmine's eyes well up with tears of her own, and she can practically hear herself sniffling.

"...I'm sorry, Ren." Her voice is so soft, so delicate, so fragile in the moment that she wonders if it's her own. "I'm...I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm..."

"I know you are." Ren's voice softens from that point on, and their grip becomes a little easier. A little more slack, but still there. "When did ya stop seein' yerself as someone not worth considerin' the feelin's of, girl...?"

"...I don't know. It was...before that. Maybe when Amarys and Kiki fought that one time. I--I don't know." Carmine's voice is shaky as she struggles to keep herself together, and she feels Cardigan shift and pull her arm into a hug, and the tears start pouring down at that. She can't stop them, even if she's not a sobbing wreck with no dignity. Yet, at least. "...I don't want to lose anything else."

That gets a pause from Ren, who does their best to calm themself down. "Anything else...?"

"...My parents are divorced. My dad was...he was awful. Just a screaming, bumbling oaf who went from job to job while my mom stayed home and took care of us. Though she was...she was way more focused on Kiki..."

Ren listens carefully, nodding their head as Carmine continues.

"I haven't seen either of them in...years. We usually live with our grandparents, when we're not here. Last time I saw my mom, we got into an argument. I asked her why she stopped caring for me. Why she just...tried to leave me with him--"

"...She what?"

Carmine spares a quick glance at Ren's face, when they say that--practically seething with an anger they don't usually express. "...Yeah. She--she said she could only handle one of us, and that I was Dad's favorite, so..."

"Girl." Ren's doing their best to keep their tone level, but the anger doesn't leave. Hell, if anything, it mixes with the sheer unholy audacity of what they heard, leaving them flabberghasted-- "What the fuck is wrong with your mom?"

Carmine laughs, and while it sounds bitter, there's almost some mirth to it. "Yeah. Like I said. We got into an argument last time I talked to her. I told her I wanted an apology for her trying to abandon me, before Dad went and ran away. I...haven't spoken to her since."

"Carmine...what the fuck, that's so..."

A silence hangs over the room as Ren trails off, but Carmine breaks the silence after a few moments.

"...Between this, and the rest of the shit I dealt with at school...I...I didn't want Kiki to turn out like me." Carmine sniffles, tears still coming unbidden. "I thought you had to be tough and mean to make it, but I just...I wanted Kiki to grow up happy. I wanted it to have a better life than me. I was this bitter, mean girl, but I thought I could at least make it so my little brother--it'd have a chance at growing up to be a gentle hearted little dork who had something happy in it's life. But all I did...it all just amounted to...to..."

There's a few seconds more of sniffling before the dam finally breaks, and Carmine just starts to sob without an end. She's pretty sure her makeup is running down her face, if it hasn't been already; she finally just breaks, her tears pouring and pouring down as she sobs wretchedly and loudly, her hands finally being relinquished so she can try, in vain, to wipe those tears off. But still they come; the pain of so much more than a simple inciting incident, but still mostly that.

Ren uses their own free hand to wipe away the tears falling from their own eyes, as they just let her for a bit.

"...I want to stop hurting." Carmine speaks up, and Ren starts for a moment as they listen. "I want to stop feeling like the evil person that everyone thinks I am. But what if I'm just born evil, and there's no changing that...?"

"That's--" Ren speaks up, briefly, but Carmine speaks again and they let her get it out of her system.

"I want to make things better. I want to just know if it's all my fault, I want to know if I'm just--if I'm justified, in being unable to forgive Kiki for some of the stuff it did." Carmine sniffles again, wretched sobs still escaping her. "...I want to be able to be happy again, without feeling like I'm walking on eggshells. I want to make my girlfriend's pain go away--I want to make Kiki's pain go away, and fuck, maybe even Atlas' and some of the others. I want the world to just stop for a bit, at least so I can stop aching like this. I...I think I just want, more than anything, for someone to tell me I've suffered enough for this, or at the very least, that I just haven't grown up to become a little clone of Dad."

"...Is that so much to ask?"

The question is soft, full of despair, but it at least feels...somewhat good, to try and dislodge some of the thorns in her. It's painful and it feels dizzying, but Ren's hand remains steady, even if their own tears come down hard.

"...You're a teenager. A teenager shouldn't--you shouldn't ever have to ask that kind of shit of yourself." Ren's words are soft, with an empathy forged in the same shit they went through. Just without a depressive spiral and a shut-in phase. "You deserve to be happy, Carmine. You made a dumb, boneheaded mistake, but that doesn't mean you're evil. And it sure as fuck don't mean that you've gone and become your Dad."

Carmine pauses a bit, her sobs coming slower as she tries to listen.

"None of that shit yer askin' about, none of it's too much. But how's anyone else gonna be happy--how can ya share happiness with others if ya ain't gettin' happiness for yerself, y'know?"

"Because ya do deserve it. Whether ya want to admit it or not. Yer not evil, yer not your dad, you're literally a confused sixteen year old girl who should've never been made to feel like that."

It's shocking to hear, really. All of it is. Ren says it with so much conviction that Carmine almost believes it.

"...I don't want to talk anymore. I...I think I just want to...cry..."

"...Cry as much as you need, girl. I'll be here as long as you need."

"Don't--don't tell anyone about this, Ren. Please. Everyone has enough to worry about, and I...I don't want to put more on them. Please, I already feel bad enough burdening you..."

Ren manages something of a soft, warm chuckle at that. "...No worries, girl. What we talked about is stayin' in here, I swear on my life."

"...Thank you, Ren."

Carmine cries herself out eventually; by the time she's done, the two of them have shifted from the bed to the floor, bringing Carmine's mattress down to floor level so they could distract themselves until Carmine fell asleep. It's no easy fix, listening to a friend, but...if it makes the burden lighter, then Ren has no problem with it.

They were in a similar place many years ago with no one to help them, after all. It's the least they can do.

#carmine talks #pokemon irl #pkmn irl #pokeblogging #rotomblr #long post #pokeirl fanfic #drama stakes pokereality #cw suicidal ideation #cw self harm #cw abusive parents #cw emotional abuse #cw bullying #cw mention of attempted child abandonment #cw child abandonment #ask to tag #//that SHOULD encompass everything #//but if i have missed anything at all. please let me know and i will tag #//this is a long and very difficult ride i worked very hard on

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catkin-morgs-kookaburralover · 3 months

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just remembered that for some definition of self harm I've self harmed almost all of my life... just not in ways that led to scarring, not until the last year.

#tw sh #i had forgotten all that #then someone just mentioned needles and oh yeah i would always stab myself with sewing needles from a small child just because i needed the #emotional release the pain brought. hm. like there were other things but also that. and i would burn myself for the fun of it in class yr 9 #like it was very much a conscious thing i just didn't connect it to being self harm until just now lol #a friend the other day said 'you seem to carry some guilt around being alive at all' well HM #anywayyyyyyyyyye #i am so normal and not at all messed up /lie #personal #puddleglum hours

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underleveledjosh · 7 months

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"Psychological self harm" you selfish, selfish brat. "I don't want this content on my blog" you selfish brat. "I care about what directly affects me" YOU SELFISH BRAT. "Genocide is bad, but" You are complicit. You can throw all the buzzwords you want, it doesn't change you're a privileged american crying online that genocide makes you feel bad and it's fine because others are doing what you aren't anyway.

The fact that others are doing what I'm not is the reason why I don't feel the need to talk about it. And, yes. Emotional/psychological self harm is a real thing.

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ariadnesweb · 10 months

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Kris & Anthy - The Violence of the 4th Wall

A big thing for both Deltarune and Utena is a light-hearted simplistic 'Episode' (Chapter) structure, in which an adventure happens within the confines of the narrative. Throughout the events of the 'Episode', Kris & Anthy's behavior is highly regulated & controlled.

(Not without flashes of personality and fun, but they lack enough autonomy that 1) others' illusions of them cannot be shut down, 2) they cannot pull away from coercive/abusive situations.)

The 'inside' of the Episodic structure is symbolized by either the school-in-daylight or the surrealistic 'otherworld' - the 'outside' of the Episodic structure is symbolized by nightime and the presence of the credits. The 'inside', while oppressive, is 'safe': Kris & Anthy are accompanied by friends, and most, if not all, violence is confined to the 'Game'.

Of course, the structure necessitates that Kris & Anthy venture outside of its confines; the Episode, by its very name, is episodic, and can only last for bursts of time. What happens next is outside our ability to analyze: we only get hints at what is happening, we viewers are tied to the 4th wall.

We know this: 1) Kris & Anthy set up the preparations needed for the next episode, behaving erratically but with purpose (we've seen how the coincidences line up), 2) Kris & Anthy face a ritualistic amount of violence outside the scope of the Episode - with Kris painfully ripping away their soul, and with Anthy having to come back to her abusive (bigger, older) brother.

It is this violence from 'outside' the Episode that characterizes both Kris & Anthy - dissociation from their bodies and the people around them - they have minimal ability to participate throughout the Episode, as the conflicts and quirks are mostly driven by everyone (untouched) around them.

In both Deltarune and Utena, the presence of the 4th wall is strongly associated with the influence of a pivotal character. In Utena, this is Akio, Anthy's brother, whose gaze/beliefs shapes the 4th wall, who tries to maintain in stasis the prince-princess myth; In Deltarune, this is *Us, for whom the 4th Wall and the Episodic Structure contain and maintain, to seemingly line up with the existence of the Angel (whatever that means).

To Kris & Anthy, and their journeys of staying true to themselves while surviving, the scrutiny of the 4th wall is an obstacle in its own right.

#When talking about heavier subjects ala Utena - you're not supposed to depict violence & harm onscreen #it becomes too easy then to evoke emotion in the viewer without the viewer understanding what it is they're viewing #In both Utena & Deltarune - ritualistic violence #Instead - a symbol for the ritual allows discussion of it without encouraging fetishizing/copy-catting #deltarune #revolutionary girl utena #deltarune meta #rgu #rgu meta #soilai's labyrinth #the 4th wall is an extension of the patriarchy in the world of utena (and would be called abusive)#but deltarune isn't finished yet and thus i have to remain abstract when talking about it #hence ritualistic violence #most of kris's behaviors align with self-harm or disability or mentall illness #abuse mention

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crash-bump-bring-the-whump · 1 year

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Patient File: MO-1620

As with most other things, this has been burning in my brain for the last however long and I need to exorcise it by writing it down

TWs: captivity (imprisonment), discussions of self-worth, discussions of anxiety, discussions of trauma, self-flagellation, references to murder (including child murder), referenced but not discussed self-harm and suicidal ideation

The following is a transcript of Inmate MO-1620's visits with the facility psychologist and counselor, Dr. Juan Castillo. These documents contain confidential information. If you have received them in error, please destroy them immediately and notify the phone number on the cover sheet. Failure to do so may result in a felony punishable by a fine in any amount not exceeding $5,000, or imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution. For privacy, inmate names have been redacted in all places that they appear.

This document has been translated from Spanish to English, per written request.

BEGINNING OF TRANSCRIPT

XX/XX/XXXX - Session X

JC: Hello, XXXXX, it's good to meet you. You don't have to be nervous, this isn't a bad visit.

MO-1620: Can I ask why I'm here? They don't...usually let people talk to me.

JC: Of course. You're here because there's been talk of you being released early. I'm going to determine if you're ready for that over the next few weeks.

MO-1620: I...they can't do that. They shouldn't release me.

JC: Why is that?

MO-1620: You've seen my records. You know...you are aware of what I've done. They shouldn't let me out.

JC: I have seen your records. I've also seen your records of conduct during your sentence. I think you're a suitable candidate for release.

MO-1620: My conduct here does not mean anything. This isn't the real world.

JC: I think it does. I know during the incident in July, you didn't fight back. You chose to walk away.

MO-1620: It was not a situation that needed to be escalated. Anyone could see that XXXXX was...not in his right mind. He got bad news, I accidentally bumped into him on my way back from my yard time. I got hit. It was nothing to fight over. The guards got him away before anything could even happen, anyway.

JC: Most people in that situation would've fought back. Why didn't you? You hadn't done anything wrong.

MO-1620: It wasn't necessary. I don't like...I don't like hurting people. I don't want to hurt anyone again.

JC: So following that logic, why are you not a good candidate for early release?

MO-1620: I didn't want to hurt the people I killed, either. I still did it when I was told to. I can't be trusted with freedom.

JC: XXXXX, you were in a difficult position. Youngest member of your team, given the most unpleasant tasks, and threatened with punishment if you didn't fulfill them. You reported everything that was happening, as well, to the public and media. Don't you think that deserves some consideration?

MO-1620: No.

JC: Why not?

MO-1620: Those are excuses given to justify behavior. I've burned people alive. I've killed entire towns with nothing but my casting gloves and a handgun. People have begged me for their lives, for their children's lives, and I ignored them. You cannot ever justify that. You cannot justify any of that.

JC: Your hands are shaking. Are you angry at me?

MO-1620: No.

JC: Are you upset?

MO-1620: No. I am sick. I'd like to go back to my cell, please.

JC: Alright, lean back and I'll call someone in.

XX/XX/XXXX- Session X

JC: Welcome back, XXXXX. How are you feeling?

MO-1620: I'm nervous.

JC: What has you nervous? Nothing will happen to you in here.

MO-1620: I know. I...am just a nervous person, I think. You are...you are kind, though. I apologize for how I ended our last session.

JC: No, I think that was the healthiest thing you could've done. Leaving a situation to calm down is a good way to deal with hard emotions when you don't have other options.

MO-1620: That's very generous of you to say. I felt like I was being dramatic. Throwing a tantrum.

JC: I didn't think so. I do think that you tend to judge yourself very harshly, though.

MO-1620: I don't understand what you mean.

JC: You seem like you take a very harsh stance on your own actions, with very little room for compassion or understanding.

MO-1620: I have to make sure that I don't slip up. I'm...very dangerous.

JC: I don't think you're dangerous. You have the potential for danger, just like anyone else, but I don't feel like I'm in danger right now.

MO-1620: Of course not. The people who raise lions and tigers in their home don't feel like they're in danger, either. But something always happens.

JC: Are you just a lion or a tiger, trapped in someone's home?

MO-1620: I might as well be. I can't hurt people in here. I don't see anyone that I could hurt. It's safest for me to be here.

JC: Don't you feel lonely staying in here?

MO-1620: I do. That's alright.

JC: Why is it alright?

MO-1620: I think being lonely is the least I could do.

JC: Can you elaborate on that?

MO-1620: I took people's families from them. Partners, friends, there are a lot more lonely people in the world now, because of me.

JC: You being lonely won't bring them back

MO-1620: It won't. But neither will me living a life that those people won't ever get to experience again. I still don't understand why my sentence was so light compared to the others.

JC: So you should be punished until you die?

MO-1620: I think so, yes.

JC: That's not a very healthy mindset.

MO-1620: Why should I get the privilege of health?

JC: You're a human being, I think every human being deserves health.

MO-1620: I think that's a bit of a stretch.

JC: Are you not a human being?

MO-1620: No, not anymore. I threw that away when XXXXX told me to start razing XXXXX and I did it.

[Two minutes of silence follow]

MO-1620: I think I'd like to go back to my cell, please, Doctor Castillo.

DD/MM/YYYY - Session X

JC: XXXXX, it's good to see you again. How have you been these last few weeks?

MO-1620: It...is good to see you too. I...have been better. I have also been worse, though.

JC: It's important not to get caught up in minimizing your own pain just because you've experienced worse.

MO-1620: I...I apologize.

JC: My feelings aren't hurt. What has you feeling bad?

MO-1620: I just can't understand what you see in me. It's confusing. I've done some of the worst things someone can do. How could I ever be fit to go back to...to a normal life?

JC: I focus on your current behavior, not your past.

MO-1620: Why is that...okay? Why do you do that?

JC: People can change. Not everyone will, but some people can. I think you're a different person than you were when you hurt those people.

MO-1620: What makes you so sure? I...I feel the same. I don't think I'm any different.

JC: Change isn't some big, sweeping thing. Not permanent change, anyway. It has to be small, and gradual. Sometimes we don't even notice it. I think you've been doing that. I've seen the books you've been checking out. Why have you been focusing on self-help and communication books?

MO-1620: I want...to understand people better. I don't understand others very well. It makes things hard.

JC: Someone who didn't care about hurting others wouldn't care about understanding them.

MO-1620: Maybe. You talk like I deserve to be forgiven, though.

JC: I think it should be on the table. You might not be able to forgive yourself now, but I don't think it should be off-limits forever.

MO-1620: That is not mine to give, though.

JC: Forgiveness?

MO-1620: Yes. Forgiveness for how I hurt others is not something I get to give to myself. That doesn't make sense. I wasn't the one hurt.

JC: I think you were.

MO-1620: How was I hurt? I did the hurting. It's selfish to make this about me and my feelings.

JC: These sessions are all about you. If there's a time to explore something that feels selfish, now is the perfect time. I can't imagine it was fun to do all of that.

MO-1620: There was adrenaline, but...you're right. It wasn't something I liked. I didn't want to do it.

JC: You wanted to stop so badly that you almost beat someone to death.

MO-1620: I...did. I did that, yes. It was not the way I should've handled it. I shouldn't have touched our superior officer.

JC: But nothing else worked. You don't immediately jump to violence. Should you never be forgiven for hurting your superior officer?

MO-1620: No, I shouldn't. I think he deserved it, but I still shouldn't forgive myself for it. I'm not a good judge of what is right or wrong.

JC: Because you trusted the people in charge of you?

MO-1620: Because I knew better, and still made excuses. I made excuses to myself until I couldn't look either my leader or super in the eye without wanting to vomit. I should've taken the torture training instead. I should've accepted the punishments. They couldn't kill me and get away with it, and I knew that. I should've done anything but what I did. The only thing I did right was turn us all in.

JC: I think most people would've done what you did in your position.

MO-1620: I don't think that makes it okay, or forgivable.

JC: I think it does. I think you don't want to admit that it was traumatic to go through all of that, because you happened to also hurt others. But it wasn't fun. I think it hurt you a lot to do those things. I think it was scary to have those threats made if you didn't obey orders.

MO-1620: I...I think I deserve to hurt like this, though. It's fair.

JC: It's fair?

MO-1620: I shouldn't ever forget, or get too comfortable. If it helps me remember, and if it helps me stay in line...I think it's fair. I'll take that.

JC: I see. Would you like a tissue, XXXXX?

MO-1620: ...Yes. Yes, please.

JC: Take your time, and then I'll let them take you back. I think it's a good time to end today.

MO-1620: Thank you, Doctor Castillo.

XX/XX/XXXX - Session X

JC: Hello again. XXXXX. You don't look well, are you feeling alright?

MO-1620: I haven't been sleeping very well. The guards tell me that you are saying I should be released next month. I...I don't understand.

JC: You've demonstrated self-restraint, self-awareness, and a deep remorse for your actions. You haven't participated in so much as an argument in your years here, either. Unless you've somehow managed to fool someone who's caught serial killers in their games, you aren't going to re-offend.

MO-1620: I...I am very afraid, Doctor Castillo. I do not know how to...to say how I'm feeling. It doesn't feel like you've been listening to me at all.

JC: I've been listening more than you think I have. You are...what, XX years old? I've been doing this since before you were born, XXXXX. I've talked to guys who've done what you did before. You're not my first violent offender. You know how many have begged me to stay here, because they were afraid they'd hurt someone else?

MO-1620: Not...many?

JC: You have. You and one other have begged to stay. The rest have all but promised me their first-born to get out of here early. So no. You will not be staying.

MO-1620: What if I mess up again? What if more people end up dead? I cannot handle that. I don't know what I'd do if that happened.

JC: You don't have to know. No one else will die because of you, because you aren't going to do that again. You don't trust yourself enough to even come close to being in a position to do that again. I'd be surprised if you felt confident enough to care for a pet rock when you're released. You will be fine out there.

[One minute of silence follows. Unintelligible noises can be heard, but the recording is too low quality to discern the source. The noise gradually becomes clearer and can be identified as MO-1620 crying.]

JC: Alright, none of that, hands on the chair arms. Good, good. Just like that. Breathe. Here are the tissues. I'll tell them to take you back. Not to your cell yet, you're on a watch. You can go back to your cell afterwards, then we'll get you ready to get out of here.

[A beep can be heard]

JC: Can I get Rodriguez in here? No, no. Nothing like that. Yeah, looks like a panic attack. Just for a few days, maybe a week. Yes. Just to be sure he makes it to release date. No, we certainly don't need a repeat of the XXXXX situation.

[A door squeaks open]

Off. R: Is this...him? XXXXX XXXXX? The one who...

JC: Yes. I think he'll need some help--yes, it's safe. He won't hurt you, if he could I would've asked for Ortega. Just like this, at his elbow. There. I'll call Medical and ask them to send down something to help keep him calm.

JC: I'll check on you later, XXXXX. You'll be fine. Just breathe.

END OF TRANSCRIPT

My analysis of MO-1620 is such: He is safe to return to society. He has expressed marked improvements in behavior, judgement, and habits, along with regret and a strong desire to not re-offend. Additionally, the differences between his actions and those on his team are large enough that I support the proposal put forth by Judge Miranda.

Dr. Juan Castillo

XX/XX/XXXX

#whump #emotional whump #captivity #imprisonment #mage of violence #self loathing #anxiety /#self harm mention #suicide mention #murder mention

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asterlovessams · 9 months

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Tw vent

info under the cut

I don't know if I'll be doing art for a while. I've had memory loss i remember things differently my memory is fuzzy. Im severly depressed because of my past and whats been going on in the present. I hate myself sometimes I want to die but im scared to make the people I care about upset. I've tried overdosing. Ive been hurting myself over and over countless times. I spend everyday knowing I hate myself little things have began to set me off. My family isn't making it better either. If im yelled at I want to cry but I don't. I haven't been seeking help all I do is starve myself by throwing up my food everyday. I drink lots of liquids when I don't want to deal with the pain and make people concerned. All I do is sit in bed and sleep I don't know what to do.

I feel uncomfortable with people touching me alot now too. One of my friends keeps telling everyone how I feel and its not helping. I've been sexually assaulted multiple times to the point I don't feel comfortable with a t shirt on. I hate myself so much I've been shamed for eating alot when I actually feel like it and for being so thin and frail. I don't know what to do with myself anymore.

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page-2-ids · 1 year

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ThisILovemoshic|Thisovemoshic: A gender related to the GnR song This I Love and emotional self harm, and possibly emotionally self harming using the song in some way - exclusive to those who do or have emotionally self harmed

The colors are inspired by my associations with the related song

No suggested pronouns

#thisilovemoshic #emoshic #emotional self harm mention #self harm mention #neurogender #musicagender #nrosesgender #thisovemoshic

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asm5129 · 8 months

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The Pain of Going to a Psych Ward (a Respectful Response to Ilymation) [SEPTEMBER VIDEO ESSAY]

content warnings: This video includes discussions of suicide, self harm, trauma, psych wards, and brief mentions of police brutality. Please prioritize your own mental health.

youtube

Hello to all my Queers and Dears and welcome to the September 2023 entry in my series of monthly video essays!

In this video, I discuss my history as a patient at various psych wards and break down why ilymation's video The Perks of Going to a Psych Ward didn't sit well with me.

This one took a lot out of me, but i think it's worth it.

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thirstghosting · 7 months

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my blog title is still buffy angstposting but like I burned through all of the arcs that actually pay off and I just. its like slitting my actual wrists to carry the series to term ykwim

#tw self harm mention #im not being flippant watching buffy chronologically is in fact self harm #ough #the emotional toll it takes #where do we go from here #ONCE MORE. WITH FEHFHUEBFHSDDFBHRFJSKSJDHFH #the fact that i same hat so hard when buffy sings about 'why wont you let me die!!'#actually thats an amazing meme premise #ref

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cyberphuck · 10 months

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So, about the story of how I met my dad and why I love him so much

@qthewhatever asked me to talk about my dad, how he became my dad, and our relationship. I thought this was going to be a fun jaunt through good memories, with maybe a few grateful tears along the way. But the story of why my dad is so special to me can't be told without the context of why my mother *isn't* special to me, and the stark difference between how he treats me, and how I was treated by her. The cliff's notes version (do they even have those anymore?): Dad became my dad kind of by accident, when Seb and I started "pretending" to be siblings in order to be able to rent a room together. Dad is Seb's dad, so it follows that since I'm Seb's sibling, Dad is my dad too. Then he just... fell into the role, because dads gotta dad. He is always proud of me, no matter what, and no matter how badly I fuck something up he could never, ever stop loving me. He cares about me and doesn't get annoyed by the ups and downs of my moods. He lets me cry when I need to. He lets me take a break when I need to. He loves me, *really* loves me, so totally and completely that even though we look absolutely nothing alike, no one who has ever seen us together doubts that he's raised me from birth. That's not what it was like with my mom. I only got so far through recounting her decades of abuse before I found that I couldn't do it anymore. I'm still going to post what I have, because I think other people should read it and maybe become comfortable talking about their abuse *as* abuse and not "I'm sure I was doing something wrong somehow, and it was my fault they were always so angry at me." Also, I spent a long time working on it. This is not a happy story. trigger warnings: child abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental illness, mentions of suicide, mentions of self harm, mentions of various serial killers, mentions of psychiatric hospitals, autism portrayed in a negative tone, fatphobia, and brief mentions of drugs and drug use. (this story is also not complete; it stops when I'm around 27, but I added an epilogue.)

My family had been in various financial situations throughout my childhood, but I was raised upper middle class, which was the same tax bracket that my mom had been raised in. My biodad, Ichiro (Dave) left when I was three, and I saw him once ten years later and then never again. So mom raised my older brother Nick and I by herself (except for a 3 year stint with Chris the Coke Addict Who's Dead Now) up until I was thirteen.

I'll admit I was not an easy kid to raise. I was (and still am) weird and awkward and autistic and prone to oversharing with strangers as well as long crying spells over seemingly low-importance things. Nick was also sensitive and somewhere on the spectrum, but it was me who was the loud one, the hyper one, the one who people politely said was a "late bloomer" and "marched to the beat of their own drummer" (at one point my mom told me I was "marching backwards.") I refused or forgot to eat so often that at six I became malnourished enough to warrant a visit by CPS. I was always being called into the principal's office for doing weird shit at school, like making potions out of shampoo and throwing them at passing cars or lion-roaring at boys I didn't like or whatever. When I got sick, I got VERY sick, like the time I straight up got Scarlet Fever and almost died, or the time I had a fever so high I started convulsing, or the lots of times that I had to do fasting blood draws every month because I had a very low red blood cell count and no one could figure out why.

Bottom line I was very weird. Mom was weird too, my grandparents were weird, but they knew how to "show" in public. I didn't. Nick's nickname for me was "The Spaz." Worse, I constantly craved attention and had absolutely no concept of Stranger Danger (I still kind of don't), and the year I was born, Richard Ramirez was active and killing in Southern California where my mom and Dave lived. In 1992, Jeffrey Dahmer was arrested and his apartment full of chunks of Milwaukee's queer community was broadcasted all over the news. In 1978, when my mom was a young woman, Mary Vincent was attacked by a man who picked her up while hitchhiking. He assaulted her and then attacked her with a hatchet, cutting both her arms off above the elbow. She has hooks for hands now.

To keep me by her side and not wandering around out in the open, mom told me about all this. Everything-- that Dahmer was killing and eating people, that Ramirez tortured and murdered people, and how Mary Vincent had asked a strange man for a ride and now she had no arms. There's a scene in the beginning of *A Time to Kill* by John Grisham where a young black girl is being raped and tortured by two white men. It's a page or two long, but very graphic, and when I was eight my mom sat me down and made me read it to show me what could happen to me if I went anywhere alone.

At the time, we lived in Lausanne, Switzerland, which is not exactly a hotbed of violent crime.

All that aside, I was a cute kid and a good-looking teenager. I was adorably freckly with never-neat red hair, and then grew into a curvy teen with long red hair and wore cute clothes. Mom bragged to people that I was an author and an artist, and she would often tell me that she loved how 'cool' I was. (cool, in this sense, meant wearing the clothes she bought me and not styling my hair in any way she found ugly. She often pointed out ugly people on TV or on the street, and say something like 'I'm glad YOU don't dress like that.')

I was smart-- I didn't get good grades because I could never get around to doing my homework, but I scored high on tests and most teachers liked me. I wasn't one of the popular kids, but I was always the leader of whatever little gang I was in, deciding where we went and what we did, and mom loved that, too. And she really, *really* wanted me to go into medicine.

Junior and senior year was where it all started to fall apart.

Mom's husband is a veteran with severe PTSD. 2001 - 2005 were the worst years with him; he was overbearing at the best of times and the fact that he was a boomer from Brooklyn and I was a millenial from LA really didn't help us see eye to eye. But he had a hair trigger and would back me against a wall to loom over you and scream in your face. Nick, who was taller and angrier than me, would scream back. Once, Nick was sent to the store for parmesan cheese and came home with the powder kind in the green can instead of the tub of the fancy grated cheese, and the resulting shouting match almost ended in a fist fight.

My depression started getting really bad when I was 17. By 18, I started self-harming, and for the first time had the thought that if I died, if I was gone and were nothing, everything would be better. I also had my first hospitalization.

I'm at 21 inpatient psychiatric stays now.

Worse, I was an adult now and had not transferred gracefully from high school to college (to go into medicine, nothing else was enough for her). I didn't even have a graduation-- I tested out of school in early 2003 and the only pomp and circumstance I got was a half-sheet of paper with 'CALIFORNIA HIGH SCHOOL PROFICIENCY EXAMINATION' printed on it. I had gained a lot of weight, partly due to meds and partly from depression and post-school downtime. She told me my hair looked like a rat's nest and once remarked to her husband, 'look at the size of her!' I no longer wore cute clothes and was not actively trying to turn my art or writing into a profitable career.

Mom and her husband told me that I absolutely had to go back to school again, or they'd kick me out. The closest community college was two counties away (counties in California are really big). They told me they'd only take me to the nearest bus stop (still an hours' drive) and then I'd have to take a three-hour bus ride to the campus. The absolute earliest bus left at six am, which meant that I could only take classes starting at 10 am, and then had to leave by 2 pm to take the bus back home (the return bus did go all the way back to my area, but didn't run as often).

They treated my trek back and forth to campus every day not with pride or pity, but contempt, as in "this is what you get for not succeeding." I had two more hospital stays.

After a particularly bad episode with mom's husband where he tried to force his way through a door and I had to climb out a window to get to neighbor's house and call 911, I moved out to stay with Nick, who had left about a year earlier. I was determined to be an adult and build a life for myself, but my depression and self-harming got steadily worse, and though I had several jobs and tried to go to college, every few months I'd do some serious damage to myself and end up back in the psych ward, pushing all my plans back to zero.

Nick moved in with his girlfriend, leaving me to shoulder the rent on our room on my own. I managed for about six months, but I couldn't stay at any job for long. I went to live with Skittle, where my depression took such a nosedive that a lot of nights were just spent huddled in a ball and sobbing. I felt worthless. I felt like I was nothing.

Skittle and I broke up, and with nowhere to go, I moved back in with my mom. There were short periods thereafter that I would move out again, but basically, after I turned 23, I didn't get away from her again for five years.

Mom was never really happy with me again. I helped out wherever I could, going with her to the ranch where her horses were and volunteering to do all the dirty or hard tasks so she could have more time to ride. I did not and still do not like horses and have no interest in riding them. I went to make her happy. I wanted to do whatever I could to make her like me.

(Mom's ranch friends loved me, because I had been taught to show well in public. With them, I was witty and hard-working, and so sweet to come there to help my mom. Didn't I want to get on a horse, just once? No?)

I brought my mom breakfast and her meds when she woke up, so she could lay in bed while they took effect instead of having to hobble to the kitchen. I did chores around the house. I took the laundry to the laundromat twice a week, and brought them home clean and folded. I walked the dogs and took them to the park.

My mom told me that I was a draw on finances. I started cleaning houses, and eventually lucked into a job cleaning weed for a hefty sum of money. I made enough money in one three-day weekend to buy my own car, which was a good thing since mom's truck was repossessed not long after. I'd gotten the trimming job in November. I sometimes stayed over at the weed guy's house so I could do two or three days of trimming in a row. In December mom told me that all I cared about was money.

Early the next year, my boss was between sales, so he was late paying me. I owed my mom two hundred dollars (I can't remember for what), and she treated me with open hatred for every day I didn't have it. Bitter and upset, I posted something on facebook to the effect of "does anyone know where I can find two hundred dollars so my mom will love me again?" Mom saw it and sent me a message:

"you want to play this game? better not call for a while I better not see you for a while. a person must learn to keep family business private [Jaydee]."

I also got:

“Just sit there and pretend you’re not here.”

“I’m trying to reminisce about happier times, before all this.”

“You know you think it’s all about you, but I had your brother first.”

“If you don’t like the things I say to you, leave and find someplace with someone nicer.”

“Go get a shrink and figure out why you’re like this all the time.”

[epilogue: the next year, I was planning to commit suicide because I saw no other way out. Seb offered to let me stay with him in Texas; my options were Texas, or death. I pondered that for a while. A few weeks later, I got a refund of a Pell Grant from my college that they'd mistakenly taken two years earlier. Mom and her husband made it expressly clear that as soon as the money hit my account, I was to hand it over to them. Instead, I bought a plane ticket, pulled out the rest of the money in cash, wiped my ass with her husband's face towel, and snuck out with two suitcases in the middle of the night. I had left a note for mom saying I didn't want to be abused anymore and told her I was going to stay with a friend in Central California to throw her off my trail. I also told her that if she ever tried to find me, or bothered any of my friends to get information, I would put all of her secrets and records of her abuse on facebook for all her friends and relatives to read.

I didn't see her or speak to her again for nearly ten years, until this May. Then I flipped her off.]

#tw abuse #tw child abuse #tw verbal abuse #tw emotional abuse #tw mental illness #tw suicide mention #tw self harm #tw depression #tw mental hospital #tw fatphobia #tw my mom sucks

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jasmine-angel · 3 months

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i keep getting uncontrollably angry that my mum trained my stimming out of me. i was doing harmless things! i looked a little odd but it hurt NO ONE. but she couldn’t stand having a freak daughter and made me punish myself every time i did it or got the urge to do it.

#tw autistic abuse #abuse #she would make me snap an elastic against my wrist #and she also made me pinch myself (my leg usually)#all to stop me from stimming…#then she got mad when i was actually self harming as if she didn’t promote it & enforce it #half the time i sh’ed it was due to emotional disregulation… which is often what autistics stim to cope with #lolololol #jaz rambles #jaz vents #sh mention #tw sh mention #://

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theyarerealtome · 1 year

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Ok, but let’s talk for a minute about just how good Nick and Charlie are for each other?? Not only romantically, but how their lifepaths are genuinely changed for the better because of their relationship?

Like, we know Charlie gave Nick the positive queer experience he himself never got to have and supported him through figuring out his sexuality. And Nick helps Charlie rebuild himself after Ben and the bullying, and his eating disorder.

It made me think about how things could have gone if they hadn’t met when they did. Beyond the aw-they-wouldn’t-get-to-meet-their-soulmate-☹ and to the sad, wider implications of not knowing each other.

Sorry for the incoming Way Too Long Ramble about what if Mr Lange had done the seating plan differently.

TW for discussions of canon eating disorders, self-harm and sexual assault.

Charlie

First off, I think Charlie would still break things off with Ben after seeing him with a girlfriend. But the big difference is there’s no Nick to discover Ben assaulting him, and to subsequently confide in about their relationship and reaffirm that Ben is the terrible, awful person.

So, we’re looking at a Charlie who is still carrying this toxic secret alone that could damage and tear away at his self-esteem even more than canon where he fairly quickly gets to build a healthy, loving relationship with Nick who actively combats a lot of the shit that Ben told him

(I wonder if eventually Charlie would have told Tori more?? About the guy who ‘made him feel like it would be better if he didn’t exist’. I hope so, because Charlie, my beloved, while you are an actual angel for not outing that piece of dickweed to anyone, you’re allowed to tell someone)

(Don’t even want to get into if the assault would have progressed further without Nick there. Probably Ben wouldn’t have gone beyond kissing. But it would still be more traumatic, and Nick’s discovery meant Ben was warier about coming near Charlie afterwards. Whereas no Nick means Charlie is constantly on guard avoiding Ben)

More under the cut.

Unquestionably Charlie still develops his eating disorder - and chances are it’s quicker and more severe than in canon, with all this extra crap going on.

The one bit of hope is that while it might take longer for other non-Nick people to notice his ED, I’m sure they would. Charlie still has a good support network, and someone – Tori, Tao, Elle, Isaac/Aled, Mr Ajayi – would pick up on it.

But still getting help, and his recovery process (especially around self-harm) would be much longer, and more painful given Nick was the one who first got through to Charlie and helped him talk to his parents.

And Tori and Nick were both the biggest supports for Charlie through it all – without Nick, poor Tori has so much more on her shoulders.

The events of Solitaire end up being even darker, as Nick/Charlie are basically the main bright spot in all that. So, you have an even sadder Charlie and Tori

When the air clears after an incredibly shitty few years you’d have a 16/17-year-old Charlie who is working on his ED, self-harm, and mental health, but bottom line is it’s a much more painful journey, and he’s probably more impacted by everything with Ben.

In terms of the wider friend group, probably the Paris Squad Charlie/Tao/Tara/Darcy/Aled-Isaac/Sahar unit still develops. Because Elle was really the one who connected the girls with the guys. So, at least Charlie would have that

But with wider popularity? Canonically he ends up Head Boy and is friendly with a lot of people. I’m thinking without joining the rugby team, expanding his social circle, and having Nick to build his confidence we’re seeing a more reserved version of Charlie. Maybe he’d just be like a prefect or something but not quite head boy?

So, by the end of high school you’ve got a recovering Charlie heading off to uni, but he’s carrying a lot of self-loathing and emotional scars that Nick chipped away at.

Nick

It feels like in the shorter-term Nick’s situation would be better than Charlie’s – but longer term everything goes to shit.

Initially not much would change – he’d play rugby, he’d have his friends who he doesn’t actually like but is accepted by, he’s in a group where he can never be fully himself

Basically, Nick is ok but he’s not happy – and not even fully aware of how ‘not-happy’ he is

Harry would still have pushed Tara & Nick together at his birthday and Tara might still have come out to him. But without Nick’s sexuality crisis or talking about his openly gay “probably-my-best-friend-right-now” I don’t think they would have connected so quickly

And he never would have been at the orchestra practice to see her again and plan lunch together, milkshake dates etc. So that means no befriending Tara/Darcy and not connecting with the Paris Squad

Things with Imogen would have developed in a similar way: chances are peak peer-pressured Nick would still be bulldozed into going on their date, but without his relationship with Charlie to enable him to cancel, you’re looking at it being dragged out way longer - it’s a question of how many dates they go on before Nick calls things off

Yeah, he would have stopped before they actually became boyfriend/girlfriend, but it’s still a much stickier situation all round and one that leaves him more alienated

Then he’d still go on the Paris trip but probably ends up rooming with Harry and co. so much less fun all round

On the friend’s front – he’d still have Sai/Otis-Omar/Christian, but in canon it seems like their friendship deepened when Nick got together with Charlie, and a line was drawn over who Nick’s true friends were?? Without that happening, their friendship likely stays more surface level and shallow

Similarly, I’m not seeing a Charlie-less version of Nick having the confidence to confront Stéphane and David

Coming out as bi, having Charlie to confide in about his feelings, and just generally being able to be more himself – all that contributed to Nick calling both of them out on their shit. Without those circumstances, you’ve got a more people-pleasing Nick who pushes his own feelings down, so nothing real gets addressed and both relationships remain toxic and distant.

Obviously the massive, massive question is when and how Nick has his “full-on gay crisis.” And that’s kind of impossible to say. It could still be at Truham over another guy, or might not be until after school (maybe at uni)

There are a hundred ways that could go – but I think the key thing is that without Charlie, the chances are Nick’s sexuality journey wouldn’t be nearly as positive or healthy. (Honestly, it’s often missed just how supportive and essential Charlie was through it all, and how wonderful it was that Nick got such a sweet first (only) boyfriend).

Also remember, Charlie is the only out guy at Truham – if Nick falls for someone else at school then they’re either straight or closeted, and Nick is hit with feelings that he has to deal with on his own

There’s no Charlie to make the first move, no Charlie to hold Nick while he’s breaking down, no Charlie to tell him it’s ok to figure things out, no Paris Squad to provide queer community, no Tara/Darcy to talk to. It’s Nick alone in his room with BuzzFeed quizzes and articles on conversion therapy

Luckily he does still have Sarah and he might confide in her at an earlier point than in canon, but in terms of actual friends to talk to? ☹

Again, as with Charlie, Nick would eventually be ok. He’d figure it out – but it would be a hell of a lot of lonelier, and he’d probably never come out or act on anything while still at Truham

If his sexuality crisis happened post-school (likely uni) …possibly that would be better?? Uni is less of a cesspool, he wouldn’t be as trapped with people like Harry, and could at least connect with LGBTQI+ groups on campus etc. But on the flipside, it’s a Nick whose had years more of repressing his true self so there would be more to untangle

Overall, whether he’s realised he’s bi or not, by the end of school you’re left with Nick who is doing fine enough and seems content, but is much less anchored in himself, represses important parts of who he is, and lacks a real, close community

Idk, what other people think. This is all assuming that Nick and Charlie don’t meet later during school (e.g., if Nick reached out to the collection of queer students at Truham during his bi crisis).

But basically, all that long ramble was saying that a Nick and Charlie without each other is a very sad thing to think about, and they’re 100% a couple who make each other better, happier versions of themselves <3

(Also sorry this is a frankenstein combo of Netflix and comics heartstopper. basically it just takes everything across both universes into account. Plus Solitaire, This Winter, N&C etc.

#heartstopper analysis #heartstopper meta #nick x charlie #I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again #Nick helped Charlie heal and recover from his emotional and psychological scars #But Charlie helped prevent Nick from ever getting scarred in the first place #Charlie meant that Nick never had an abusive first relationship like Ben #Charlie keeping Nick’s secrets and giving him a support network meant he never got bullied #Not even touching the implied suicide mention in Solitaire. I always assumed that happened during the height of the bullying and was pre-Nic #but Charlie's self-harm would definitely be worse #this was the most random rant #and I know there are a million fanfics centered on if-they-didn't-meet-AU #but this was trying to stick as close to canon as possible and not actually write any new content #basically you get a Charlie with lower self-esteem and a Nick with lower self-knowledge #and both with lower happiness #so this was sort of a happy rant in the end #narlie #charlie spring #nick nelson

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