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zaharya · 2 years

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ADHD science ramble – a comment response

So if you know me at all, you know I have ADHD and also a neuroscience degree. Meaning sometimes I ramble a lot about the science behind ADHD and ADHD meds. Generally, people appreciate it at best, or ignore it at worst – but apparently not on reddit! So, I'm coming home – forgive me for straying, Tumblr, please give me back my belief in people's ability to understand nuance.

The comment below was in response to a post asking about ADHD medication, including concerns about stimulants and addiction, and the question of "will I quit these meds or is this a life-long thing". They also mentioned "rejection sensitive dysphoria" (which is not a medical term!) and asked for other people's insights on any of these things. I tried to give that. The original post is now suddenly deleted, and the comment was invisible even before then for whatever reason (I won't speculate whether it was censored by the mods or not, it doesn't matter.)

But since those are all pretty general topics and this was a lot of effort to write, I'm re-posting it here in the hopes someone will benefit from it – it may just read a bit odd at times because it addresses the OP of that post. So if ADHD medication, treatment approaches, stigma, or emotional dysregulation are at all relevant or interesting to you, give it a glance. There's a TL:DR at the bottom as well. If Tumblr could stop bitching at me about the formatting that'd be great. Please ignore potential oddities with the list levels.

COMMENT RESPONSE IN VERBATIM

OKAY SO, buckle in my friend because you have activated my ADHD research deep dive mode. For the record and some context as to where I got all this; I have a BSc in Psychology, and did a research masters in cognitive and clinical neuroscience. Throughout both degree programs, I've written every single paper I could choose the topic for about some aspect of ADHD. (I do not have a license for psychotherapy yet, but I am getting one.) I also just have ADHD myself. What I’m trying to say is: I know way too much about ADHD and now I must tell you about it because what else am I supposed to do with it — ANYWAY … I should probably structure this somehow so it’s less overwhelming. We’ll try this:

Medication

Strattera/Atomoxetine (ATX); how it works, why it may or may not be working for you

Stimulants; how it works, evidence regarding the risk of dependency and abuse, connections to other substance use (since you mentioned nicotine)

Long-term treatment plans; factors to consider / questions for you to evaluate for yourself

RSD — probably a rant, first; why buzzwords are counterproductive even if the experience is 100% valid

Emotional dysregulation; research again, also potentially about meds

rejection sensitivity slkjdsjfs it escalated, help

Community and peer support

Yes? Yes. Feel free to skip any parts that are too sciency, if that doesn’t interest you!

First of all, congratulations on your diagnosis! You’ve already made one of the hardest steps. But let’s get into it, shall we?

ADHD Medication

Non-stimulants / Atomoxetine (ATX)

I must say, I am quite surprised that you were prescribed ATX as your first option, given that stimulants are very firmly established as first-line treatment.

Regardless, a couple of facts about it: ATX is a selective noradrenaline (NA) reuptake inhibitor, which also affects dopamine (DA) levels, specifically in the prefrontal cortex (PFC) because— well because brain chemistry. (I’m trying very hard to keep this simple, can you tell?) Basically, the idea is to regulate DA levels through an indirect mechanism via NA. And that works pretty well, generally. ATX is effective for approximately 50-60% of people, and the effects reach moderate strength.

Now you said that you don’t really notice any effect; that can have several possible reasons:

It just doesn’t work for you; 50-60% of people show a response, sure — but the other 40-50% do not! Unfortunately it is possible that you simply are part of those 40-50% non-responders.

The exact mechanisms of that are still unclear, but there are many factors that might influence someone’s drug response, including individual differences in metabolism, genetic factors etc. --- we’re still researching that

ATX, unlike stimulants, doesn’t necessarily have immediate effects. Full therapeutic effects are generally not evaluated until at least 2-3 weeks after starting it. That also means that the effects can develop slowly, which can make them harder to notice because it’s a somewhat gradual change.

On top of that, if your doctor is even the slightest shred of competent (which I hope), they’ll probably have started at a fairly low dose, meaning that;

you might just not feel it yet, but the effect may still emerge

you might need a higher dose; if that’s the case, this increase is generally done step-wise and quite slowly, to monitor the effects (and side-effects) properly. I suggest asking your doctors about what kind of trajectory they have in mind, so you can decide whether that suits you.

You mentioned mood swings; definitely mention that to your doctor! Psychological side-effects of ATX should be closely monitored

Note that this is especially important if someone has (potentially undiagnosed) comorbid disorders. I don’t know whether that’s the case for you, but better to be aware either way.

All that said, I also take ATX and I must say that on its own its effects are barely noticeable for me. It’s only because I know that my symptoms can be worse that I even consider it effective. I am an unusual case, though, regarding med-response etc. and I take ATX in combination with Elvanse (Lisdexamfetamine; LDX).

Which I guess brings us to stimulants. You say you’re reluctant out of fear to form a dependency, if I understand correctly. Well, the research is quite interesting in that regard — but let’s cover the basics first.

Stimulants

Stimulants, i.e., various types of amphetamines (AMP) and methylphenidates (MPH), are the standard first-line treatment for ADHD. Both AMP- and MPH-class drugs essentially increase the efficiency of the PFC —same as ATX — but where ATX only directly targets NA, AMP and MPH inhibit the reuptake of DA itself as well as NA reuptake. This direct effect on DA levels is basically (very basic; oversimplified even) what makes them stimulants. It is also likely the root for your concerns about dependence risks, because DA is involved in our reward-system in the brain — i.e. the thing that tells you “i want more of this”.

So, yeah, these concerns are not unfounded, HOWEVER

It is important to remember/note that a lot of the public narrative around ADHD and ADHD medication is heavily distorted by stigma. The number of people who worry about stimulants being addictive is leagues away from the actual prevalence of stimulant abuse/dependence.

This also kinda ties into your question about whether you will stop taking meds at some point or not; the idea that treatment must be temporary roots in the stigmatisation of mental health treatment.

I’m not saying that life-long medication treatment is a delight and a joy, but I also don’t think that it is the ultimate evil it’s sometimes made out to be. –– EXAMPLE: Think of a diabetic; they will need insulin for the rest of their life, but in their case nobody would ever suggest that them taking it is somehow a bad thing.

Mental health in general is unfortunately still heavily stigmatised, and that also impacts the narrative around treatment options, including medication. And more often than not, public beliefs about psychiatric conditions are downright and blatantly wrong.

In this particular case, actual research indicates that stimulant treatment actually decreases the risk for substance abuse in ADHDers. (Generally, adequate ADHD treatment reduces risks for all sorts of unpleasant things, like comorbid disorders, social isolation, divorce, accidents — I could go on. Not the point.)

The point is that overall, from a research perspective, the risk of drug dependence due to stimulant medication is quite low. Hell, literally everyone I know who takes ADHD meds will go “shit I forgot my meds” at least every other month or so.

Of course that doesn’t mean that we can all just pop stims however we like without a care in the world. As with any other medication, monitoring effects and side-effects together with a doctor is key.

With all that said, there is good reason why stimulants are first-line treatment for ADHD: 65-80% of people show a treatment response, and for a lot of people who don’t initially experience an effect, switching to another type of stimulant will often do the trick (total response rates of ~90%). Besides the fact that they work for more people, they also generally work better than non-stimulants, meaning that the symptom improvements are stronger for stimulants. Does this mean you should just get over yourself and go for stimulants because they’re clearly superior? Of course not.

Medication response is ultimately a very individual thing; it is basically impossible to know how you’ll react to any given medication before you try it. So in the end, it really comes down to what you want. It’s your decision, based on your priorities and values.

The same goes for your question of “will I take these meds forever” — that’s up to you!

Generally speaking, ADHD doesn’t go away. It is not something you grow out of any more than you can grow a second brain to replace the one you have. And our brains have ADHD. So, symptom-wise, we will always experience ADHD to some degree at least.

Of course, there are plenty of other treatment approaches such as CBT and literal mountains of helpful strategies to learn about and use. And that’s wonderful! Still, therapy alone is generally considered less effective than meds, but it does help. The best treatment approaches are multimodal, i.e. a combination of pharmacological treatment and behavioural interventions. Aka we take meds and go to therapy. Amazing.

So let’s say you’ve taken meds for a while, you’ve gone to therapy, you’ve learnt all the strategies — you decide to quit the meds. What happens?

Well first of all, nobody can know that beforehand, so keep in mind that these are hypothetical assumptions based on scenarios that research described as likely

Anyway, you quit whatever meds that ended up working for you. Ideally, you do that slowly so you don’t have any withdrawal issues, but eventually you’re off the meds. As a result, your brain isn’t getting that neurotransmitter boost anymore that the meds created (though some research shows that some benefits might persist, yay!), meaning that cognitive impairments are stronger again.

Does this mean all your symptoms come back? Well, yes and no. On a basic brain level, impairments return at least in part, but the strategies you learnt in therapy might still help you cope with those impairments better than you used to before.

So you might be overall more functional, thanks to those strategies, yes.

But strategies will not fix your brain chemistry, and if there’s no dopamine there’s no dopamine, and suddenly you spent all day in bed. Or you’re staring at your work open in front of you feeling like there’s a thick panel of glass between you and your screen/keyboard and you just cannot make yourself type. These things won’t go away, and strategies will not always do the trick

Personally, I dread the idea of living my life entirely off meds. My main hobby is writing, which is nearly impossible without my meds — and even if I had a less challenging hobby; I want to do things in life, not waste my time trying to get myself to brush my teeth. But, again, that is a very personal decision that you ultimately have to make for yourself.

Still, here are a few things to consider that might help you evaluate your options:

Need — what are your primary needs? Which symptoms are impacting you most? (Yes I’m getting to the RSD sfksjhgj)

Want — what are things you want beyond the most important needs? Where do your priorities lie?

Benefit — what benefit are you getting from [medication X]? How much positive effect does it have on your symptoms? On your life as a whole?

Need-benefit — do the benefits fulfil your essential needs? —> if not, that’s probably not the right med for you

Want-benefit — do the benefits fulfil your wants beyond the essentials?

Cost — what costs is [medication X] causing you? Do you have side-effects, if so what are they, how bad, how frequent?

Cost-benefit — do the benefits outweigh the costs, on a somewhat objective level? (effects vs side-effects)

Cost-benefit-want — Are the benefits worth the costs, also taking your individual values, concerns and goals into account?

This last one can get quite complicated, I’ll admit, but in the end I feel like this one is what tips the scale for a lot of people.

You could have the most amazing improvements, if you suffer side effects that keep you from something that is important to you, it’s probably not worth it in the end.

Vice versa, in my case, if it means I can write, I will accept that I’ll feel incredibly nauseated on some days for like 1-3 hours. It all comes down to individual choices in the end.

-deep breath- So, that was a lot, whops. So much, that I should actually go and work, so I’ll try to keep the RSD thing short. Conveniently, the AutoMod already summed up the most important bits:

RSD is not a recognised medical term

Instead of RSD, it is better to use concepts and terminology with solidly established definitions such as emotional dysregulation and rejection sensitivity to talk about the experiences people tend to label RSD

This is particularly important when consulting mental health professionals; well established concepts enable them to assess your symptoms and needs better than vague, ill-defined buzzwords. I have had people tell me they were going to switch to another doctor because theirs wasn’t familiar with RSD --- that is an issue!

Buzzwords like that tend to hinder treatment progress, because they are too vague to be properly informative. Most people have a very specific conceptual definition of RSD --- namely the one that describes their own symptoms best.

That renders it basically useless as a communicative device. Doctors cannot mind-read; you are doing yourself a favour if your communication (including terminology) is as clear as possible.

Obviously nobody expects you to know specialised medical terms --- just try to avoid buzzwords; of any kind! RSD is just a very very popular one and therefore warrants repeated clarification.

Now, just cause it’s not A Thing(tm), doesn’t mean it’s not a problem. And yes, the experience of rejection sensitivity in ADHD is valid and should not be dismissed!

Emotional dysregulation is actually one of the most prevalent and most impacting symptoms of ADHD, but because it isn’t part of the diagnostic criteria, a lot of people aren’t even aware of how much ADHD impacts emotions — and how much that impacts life for ADHDers. Emotional dysregulation leads to all sorts of other problems, like social isolation or comborbid mood disorders like depression or bipolar. So, clearly, it’s something should be addressed when it comes to treatment.

And would you look at that, they did! Yay!

Research shows that stimulants are effective for reducing symptoms of emotional dysregulation; as mentioned earlier, ideally you combine that with therapy.

Especially for emotional dysregulation, therapy — not just strategies, therapy — can be very beneficial, because emotions are hard. A lot of ADHDers, especially those that only get their diagnosis in adulthood, develop suboptimal coping mechanisms throughout their life that are very hard to dismantle without help. But resolving those patterns often makes an immense impact on the general quality of life.

Conclusion: Get a good therapist. It’s worth it. (Good = someone you trust and click with, you have to be comfortable.)

Now, one last thing (almost done I promise), because you said you don’t really have anyone to talk to about this:

I strongly encourage you to actively seek out ADHD communities in a format that lends itself to connecting with people on a personal level.

So, quick story time: Back in 2018, I (by complete coincidence) stumbled over a video of a TEDxTalk about ADHD on Patreon – who even browses Patreon?! Anyway, I watched it. Cried. A lot. Backed that Patreon immediately, before even looking at the actual YouTube channel it was for. The Patreon came with Discord rewards — I had never heard of Discord but there’s nothing like ADHD impulsivity, so I made a Discord account and joined that server.

Literally my whole life has changed since then. My perspective on ADHD has changed so so much simply through seeing other people having the same struggles, and yet they were still unique. And it was a wild ride. I look at some of the beliefs I used to have and am baffled at myself. But that’s not the main point, though knowledge always does help. No, the main point isn’t another strategy or lifehack. The main point are friends. True, actual friends who accept you, but also understand you.

When I joined that server, I very quickly met a lot of people. It was wonderful to suddenly be in a space where people related to my experiences that had previously always singled me out as weird or rude or incompetent or whatever. And all those people were lovely, but they’re not the friends I mean; most of them I am not in touch with anymore. I mean the select few. They are what made the biggest difference for me. I met one of my top two best friends like 2 months after joining the server, when we both became moderators. We later did community management together for over a year, until I moved on to other things — they are still Community Manager there! I flew to the other side of the planet for their wedding. We spend hours on video chat sometimes, both just working and hanging out because we like each other’s company (and it helps us focus). I can tell them anything, even if I hate what I did or didn’t do or say or think.

Those friends.

And I don’t know you, obviously, so maybe you already have that friend, in which case I’m very happy for you. But judging by your statement that you have nobody to talk to—

I’m not saying that joining an ADHD community will magically drop a best friend for you out of the sky, but it’s honestly not a bad start. Simply gaining the peer support of people who understand and relate to your experiences is worth it.

Okay, phew. Now I’m done. For your convenience;

TL;DR

non-stimulants might still take effect or you might need a different dose

stimulants are heavily stigmatised and the actual risk for substance dependence is quite low if the treatment is properly monitored by a medical professional

ADHD doesn’t go away; we will always have ADHD brains and there will always be issues that cannot be solved with strategies

It’s up to you to decide whether you want to take medication for it, and whether you want to take them long-term or not. I personally am fairly certain that I will continue to take these meds as long as I can. Even though there are downsides, the benefits are more than worth it for me.

Emotions are hard, everyone should go to therapy.

Make ADHD friends! (I personally really like Discord communities; I can recommend the HowToADHD community — that’s the server I mentioned earlier — but it’s unfortunately behind a (very low) paywall. If you don’t know that YouTube channel, I’d also recommend checking out Jess’s videos.)

But back to the point: Friends. Whichever platform you are comfortable with – try connecting with people beyond surface level conversations in public comments/threads/channels. Slide into those DMs!

And that’s all. That was way too long and I apologise. I hope any of it was helpful and understandable, I know I can get a bit sciency sometimes. If anything is unclear just ask. Good luck with your journey! It might be hard in the beginning, but it gets easier with time, I promise.

END VERBATIM

I hope anyone finds this useful, if only for validation. Shit's hard, but we'll all be fine, together.

#this was a lot of effort #it's literally over 3000 words #pls be proud #i just want a headpat and validation #also i hope it helps #adhd #science #adhd science #research #rejection sensitivity #emotional dysregulation #medication #stimulants #adhd meds #information #comment response #reddit #purely informative

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luxaofhesperides · 3 months

Note

Can I please have meet cute/weird with mistaken villain! Danny (but really just a engineer and or chem student) and the one being put on investigation cause Danny is a day villain(not really)! Duke

Technically, Danny Fenton is innocent. Technically.

Duke wants to give him the benefit of the doubt, especially since he’s having so much trouble finding solid evidence that Danny is stealing from a wide variety of people, but he’s been burned before by trying to see people as better than they were. It doesn’t change the fact that Oracle’s cameras keep spotting Danny right before a building on the street is broken into and something stolen. He’s always just walking down the sidewalk; no one has spotted him entering or exiting a building, but he’s around far too often to be unconnected to these burglaries.

It doesn’t help that strange, petty crimes have been on the rise since Danny first arrived in Gotham.

So.

Danny Fenton is technically innocent.

Duke is trying to prove that he’s not.

Maybe I’m looking too closely, he thinks, going over Danny’s sparse file in the Hatch. Maybe Danny’s only one person in a bigger operation.

He could just be the lookout, the runner, the information gatherer who marks which buildings to hit. He may even be the scapegoat, the sacrificial lamb; Danny has no support in Gotham, no family, no job. There would be no one to help him if he got arrested or injured in a fight. He’s a freshman college student from Illinois who should be unprepared for life in Gotham but is somehow managing to survive like a native.

There’s a lot about Danny that doesn’t add up.

Duke has seen plenty of different people since he first went out as the Signal. He’s tried to be kind and give people the benefit of the doubt, but it leads to his loved ones being put in danger. Some people are truly evil, some working on a malicious agenda, some are misguided in their beliefs, and some are desperate people who see no other way to move forward.

He’s not sure yet which on Danny is, but he’s hoping Danny is just desperate and needs a little help to get out of a life of crime.

Which leads to the next problem: Duke has no idea what Danny is steal, or why. He hits both rich and poor folks, civilians and members of the mob, and once, notably, stole something right out of Cobblepot’s office. Allegedly, at least, since no one saw him enter or exit the office, not even the security cameras.

But added to the whispers going around about a new group in Gotham snatching people up from the streets, and some strange green substances found in warehouses often raided by police for the frequent drug labs that pop up in them…

It doesn’t look good for Danny. Especially when a few of the items he stole were found where people either vanished or where that green substance has been found.

A week of analysis in the Batcave and they still don’t know what it is.

Both Damian and Jason suspected Lazarus water, but the composition was completely different. By the look of the molecular structure, it shouldn’t have been in a liquid form at all.

All these findings lead back to one person who may have answers: Danny Fenton.

According to Tim, who’s already broken into Danny’s dorm room and checked over all the labs he has classes in, Danny has some concerning items in his possession. Various inventions and little metal knick-knacks put together by a practiced hand. He was also the one to find all the information that went into Danny’s file when it was first being made: social media posts, school report cards, news articles about his parents… everything.

And then he had an emergency mission to take with the Titans that swept him out of Gotham leaving Duke to tackle this investigation on his own.

He doesn’t have Tim’s natural skill in stalking and invading privacy. He hates breaking into people’s spaces and following them around, but needs must and he has to force himself to work through the discomfort.

It’s a good thing he did, too. Danny’s leaving his dorm after his last afternoon class, hood up to hide his face and something held in the front pocket of his hoodie. He ducks around people on the sidewalk easily, almost as if he’s gliding through the crowd instead of walking.

Duke follows from above, bending the light around him to hide him from sight.

He walks for some time, weaving through alleys and streets as if he’s been in Gotham his whole life, leaving behind the university campus to head towards Otisberg. There’s something strange about the way Danny walks, as if he’s moving around people who aren’t there, guided by something Duke can’t hear. Even using his meta abilities doesn’t do much beyond show him where Danny’s going to be in the next few seconds.

He continues to follow Danny on the rooftops, walking along the edge to keep him in sight.

Then Danny stops behind an apartment building and tilts his head back to look up at it. He tilts his head to the side, then nods and looks around the empty alley. Duke crouches down, keeping his eyes on Danny in the hopes of catching him in the act—

Danny disappears.

Duke curses under his breath and jumps down from the roof, putting more strength into his abilities as soon as his feet touch the ground.

The space where Danny was has a faint outline, oddly enough. He’s never seen that before. From it is a semi-transparent trail, smoke-like and a pale green leading into the building. It goes straight into a wall, as if Danny walked through it.

He can’t go in and search the entire apartment, but he can grapple up and take a look into the hallways to see where Danny’s heading. If he was looking up, then that’s where he should be heading.

It doesn’t take any effort to scale the building. There are ledges and windowsills and plenty of handholds for him to propel himself off of, and paired with his powers, Duke is able to find the correct floor in just under two minutes.

The green smoke slowly dances through the air of the ninth floor, on the east side of the building. If he’s been counting the rooms correctly, then the target of tonight’s burglary has to be apartment 924.

The curtains are drawn on the window he makes his way over to, and his abilities don’t show him anything helpful for the immediate future. He hates going in blind, especially to a civilian’s home, but capturing Danny takes priority. Duke picks the lock and slides the window up slowly, making sure it stays quiet, then slips into an empty bedroom.

He makes his way out into the hallway on silent feet, keeping a wary eye on the thin smoke strands of green, curling along the walls. The rest of the apartment is empty as well, pale sunlight slanting across the floor through the blinds.

Everything is still and silent. Danny’s nowhere to be found.

Did he miss Danny leaving, somehow? Was this a misdirect to get him out of the way while Danny stole from another location? Did he know Duke was following him?

But no, his ears pick up on the faint sound of clothes rustling.

Cautiously, Duke turns towards the front door, where the door to the coat closet is open. He focuses on what’s going to happen in the next twenty seconds and sees Danny panic, then disappear from sight again, but a transparent outline of his body is visible just enough to show him where he runs to. Best not to spook him; Duke pulls at the light around him and bends it to hide him from sight.

Then he moves along the wall, getting around the open door without bumping into anyone or anything.

A figure in front of the coats, shoving them to the side roughly, flickers in and out of view, almost like a reflection in water, distorted by ripples on the surface.

Danny pops back into visibility suddenly, scowling at the coats. “Are you sure it’s in here?” he asks the empty air.

There is no answer, but Danny acts like there is. He rolls his eyes and says, “It’s a favor. That I’m doing for you. I can literally stop right now and you wouldn’t be able to stop me.” He shoves aside another heavy winter coat, then sighs. “Why don’t you look for it, and then tell me where it is.”

He steps back and bumps into Duke.

Danny whirls around, eyes wide, and blast of green light has Duke crashing back into the wall, trying to blink spots out of his eyes.

“Wait!” he yells, grabbing for Danny before he can run off. “I just wanna talk!”

“Standing right behind me like a serial killer does not make you look like someone who wants to talk!” Danny yells back, slipping through his hands like mist.

“I just have a few questions!”

“Well, I have a question: why?!”

“Will you hold still, we’re being too loud!”

Danny escapes to the other side of the apartment, next to a window looking fully prepared to fling himself out of it. But he does stop yelling, so Duke is counting it as a success.

“Why is the Signal coming after me?” Danny asks, glaring at him suspiciously.

“Dude,” Duke says, “You’ve been seen outside of every single building that’s had a burglary since you first arrived in Gotham. All the Bats are after you, they just sent me because I’m the only one active during the day.”

“All the Bats?” Danny repeats, losing what little color he had in his face.

He looks legitimately scared, pale enough to be concerning, and Duke drops his guard and tries to relax the tension in the apartment. “I’m not gonna turn you into the cops or anything. I just had questions and you seem like the most likely person to have answers. That’s it.”

Danny still looks wary, ready to run at a moment’s notice, but he doesn’t leave when Duke approached casually, leaning his weight against the couch.

“So,” he begins, “What’s the deal with all the thievery? It’s rarely something super rare or expensive.”

There’s a long few minutes where Danny doesn’t answer, looking anywhere but at Duke. Then he twitches a bit and glares off to the side, and says, “I taking items that are contaminated with ectoplasm to help ghosts move through the veil and leave Gotham.”

That tells him nothing! That just gives Duke more questions! But at least it’s an answer, the first one any of them have got.

“I think you’re gonna have to explain a little more.”

“Ghosts are real, alright?”

“Yes.”

Danny stops. Squints at him. “What do you mean, ‘yes’?”

“Ghosts are real,” Duke repeats, “There are a few who help heroes or are heroes themselves, but that’s more on the magic side of things so I’m not super familiar with it.”

“Magic,” Danny says slowly. “Sure, alright. Um. Yes, ghosts are real. And there are a ton in Gotham who need help moving on, but they’re too weak to get past the veil. Something about Gotham has made the veil super strong, so they need a little boost to get through. Additional ectoplasm bonded helps with that.”

“And that’s why you’re stealing random things?”

“The ghosts I help can kind of sense ectoplasm-infused things, but they need me to grab them since they can’t hold anything without a physical body.”

Duke nods slowly. “Okay, that’s starting to answer some things. We have found those objects in the last places missing people were seen. Any idea what’s going on with that?”

“Yeah, those people were already dead.”

The way Danny says the most concerning answers as if they’re nothing is really throwing Duke off his game. He was expecting to be calm and serious to keep Danny from freaking out too much and look like a legitimate hero. But as soon as Danny started talking, all his nerves fell away and Duke is left grasping for composure.

“They were…”

“They were ghosts, yeah. And they needed to get through the veil. But they were also able to possess their own bodies and didn’t realize they were dead until I had to break the news to them, which is why it looks like living people just up and disappeared.”

“Okay… What about the green stuff we’ve been finding?”

“Ectoplasm.” Danny holds up a hand and a neon green light surrounds it. Except it looks more solid than light, as if it can be touched, and it moves on its own like fire around Danny’s fingers. “It’s what ghosts are made of.”

Oh. If Danny has ectoplasm, does that mean…

“Are you dead?” Duke asks, heart dropping.

Instead of looking upset about the question, or even disturbed by it, Danny just shrugs and waves his hand back and forth. “A little.”

“Okay, so let me get this straight,” Duke says, trying to resist the urge to rub his temples. It’s a habit he didn’t mean to pick up from Batman, and it would just look silly with his helmet in the way. “You’re just doing all this to help ghosts?”

“Yeah. Basically. They asked for help man, of course I was going to help them.”

Danny’s a good person. He’s just a good person to ghosts. But this is good news either way, and he can let the others know that Danny isn’t the next Catwoman and is entirely unconnected from any drug production. Everything that made him look like a criminal is just the fault of ghosts.

“Speaking of,” Danny continues, “Looks like they found what they need, so I’m going to grab that real quick.” He pushes off of the wall and heads for the closet again, moving past Duke without any fear. Duke follows, keeping a few feet of distance between them so Danny doesn’t feel trapped, and watches as he shoves aside the coats again and pulls a shoebox out of the depths of the closet. From it, he takes a single intricate lace headband and holds it up.

It looks normal, if a little old, but when Danny sends ectoplasm through it, the lace lights up and holds the glow.

He pulls some strange contraption out of his pocket and holds it up to the headband. It makes a few beeps, then Danny mutters, “7.4 millisieverts. That’s enough to get you through the veil.”

Another concern Duke can let go of: Danny’s not creating weapons like his parents have, he’s just measuring ectoplasm through his own inventions.

Maybe he could talk to Bruce or Tim about getting Danny an internship at the R&D lab in Wayne Enterprises? That way they could keep a closer eye on him while seeing what he can create in some of the best laboratories in the country.

Well, it might take having them meet Danny before they trust him enough for that, but Duke is sure he can make it happen.

“I better go see this through, then,” Danny says, shoving the contraption back into his hoodie pocket. He gives Duke a small awkward wave, then pops out of visibility. “I’ll see you around, I guess?” he disembodied voice hedges, and Duke smiles.

“I’m sure I’ll be able to find you again.”

“Cool. I gonna go now!”

He doesn’t see any sign that Danny’s left, but he gets a feeling that he’s alone now, the apartment suddenly emptier than it was before.

As strange and concerning as Danny and all his bizarre actions were, Duke is glad he was able to finally talk to him and get some answers. Knowing how Gotham pulls people him in, it’s only a matter of time before the other Bats are exposed to Danny’s kind of strange. He’s already looking forward to it.

For now, though, he has a file to update in the Hatch; POTENTIAL THREAT will be removed and replaced with GHOST HELPER.

If anyone goes snooping into his files and gets confused, then that’s their problem. Duke’s explained enough. And Danny can take care of the rest, once they go through the effort of tracking him down. Duke's done his part, he's ready for the rest of them to step up to his level.

He can’t wait to see what other kind of trouble Danny can get it into.

#ghostlights #dc x dp #dp x dc #dcxdp #dpxdc #prompt fill #my writing #could not do a meet cute/weird in this prompt so i made it a meet disaster lol #heres danny trying to focus on his education!! and then ghosts start popping up asking for help bc gotham wont let them leave #so danny has to make a few contraptions to be able to help them (mostly ecto tracking/measuring/containing) and it looks SOOO sus #the ghosts also have a weak ecto sense which is how they find him bc hes FULL of ecto #and that means hes robbing houses during the day/late evening bc the night is for homework and stress #duke is just... trying his best lol.#sorry if the last part of this is rushed or confusing i am slightly sick and can Not focus #anyways i hope u enjoy!!#thanks for the prompt!!

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