#that would be SO offended to be called butch lol
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Really wish people didn’t take the information that Butch has been used as an identifier for two main groups historically (ballroom culture for gay men and lesbian working bar culture) and go “well I suppose that means anyone could be a butch if they really want to. Why, the whole world could be butch!!1! Just put on a suit and tie and youre there!”
#personal#💿🐎#ugh I’m sorry but if you ask a stranger on the street what butch means they would know. even a cishet one.#so why does our community struggle sooooo much with using butch as though it were a fashion choice#one time I saw an older butch say that she thought you could only be butch if you were born into it. and while I don’t think that’s true#I do think I can see where she was coming from. people treat it like a weekend coat. a fancy dress they can put on when convenient#butchness is not just. masculinity. cmon y’all#it’s not when any gay person dresses masculine#y’all should know the SHEER amount of older lesbians I know who y’all would call butch in a second based off apprearence alone#that would be SO offended to be called butch lol#because gay masculinity =/= butch
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" Usually I ignore hate like this but this is so fucking funny to me
Nowhere in my bio does it say I'm a woman you dumbass LMFAO, it says I'm female, which is different than a woman
Saying I'm just gay and trans does not explain the entirety of my experience, I can use whatever fucking labels I want to describe myself whether you like it or not you wet sock
"That's not real it's made up", yeah all words are you fucking idiot
The fact that you would stone people based on an identity that literally doesn't affect your tiny brain at all says a lot about you
YOU'RE the one who's disrespecting the trans people who have died to transphobia by caring so much about the fact that this is how I experience my transness
I think they'd be proud of the fact that me and so many others are reclaiming slurs that have been used against us
Have you ever even heard of cistrans people? Probably not considering your brain implodes at the thought of male lesbians
Also where the fuck are the "fetishes" in my bio you're speaking of? Those are just my dating preferences fuckface, what? Are you mad that you don't fit those preferences? You're just mad you can't be with me because I'm so great
You are actually so fucking stupid it's funny, you think I actually care about your opinion?
Mspec gays, lesbians and straights will and have always existed, no matter what your tiny brain thinks
Lesboys and turigirls still exist too you idiot
Oh boo hoo a butch lesbian is calling themselves a lesboy, and you're getting offended over that? That's really fucking pathetic
Gay and trans people died for my and other weird queer people's rights, and the rights for us to identify however we want
R you rlly gonna support xenogenders but not other niche queer identities? Stupid ass
Nobody ever said all lesbians like men or that lesbians have to like men, lesbians only like men if they're attracted to men while also calling themselves a lesbian you dumbass
Irl literally nobody cares if you identify as an mspec gay or lesboy, it's people like you who keep pulling this stupid discourse back up WHEN LITERALLY NOBODY CARES
It's not affecting you assfuck
I'm pro stoning people who are like you, specifically with big boulders "
" Have you ever even heard of cistrans people? Probably not considering your brain implodes at the thought of male lesbians " neither of those exist take your meds,
"R you rlly gonna support xenogenders but not other niche queer identities? Stupid ass" yeah lol :3
" Nobody ever said all lesbians like men or that lesbians have to like men, lesbians only like men if they're attracted to men while also calling themselves a lesbian you dumbass" so theyre not lesbian got it ^_^
" It's not affecting you assfuck " have you ever thought about maybe the ideology that lesbians can like men is literally what gets most of them raped
anyway all the swearing from ur post makes me giggle bc youre actually so mad, maybe ask mommy to change your diaper or something
" Also where the fuck are the "fetishes" in my bio you're speaking of? Those are just my dating preferences fuckface, what? Are you mad that you don't fit those preferences? You're just mad you can't be with me because I'm so great " im actually so happy i dont fit those bc i dont date 500lbs people LMAOO maybe try listening to other people than your divorced mom who got beaten by all her past partners who says "youre so beautiful" because all shes doing is lying to you, it would b better for you to know now that ur double chin aint doing any good for you. you just gotta know youre really below average before someone tells you and you end up killing yourself over it
" Saying I'm just gay and trans does not explain the entirety of my experience, I can use whatever fucking labels I want to describe myself whether you like it or not you wet sock " how about you use the labels the term "delusional, obese, and extremely ugly"
I literally do not care
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Your au really does make a difference for me. Not just your au actually. All your art. It makes me happy because it’s beautiful and unique and it connects to me in so many ways. And it manages to make me feel better about myself in new ways I didn’t know it could ALL the time. Like today it was something as small and unnoteworthy as your April design having long armpit hair, bc I’m always getting shit for that even tho it makes me feel more comfortable and just seeing that in a Butch woman’s character design. I don’t know, it makes me feel fluttery and shit. So thanks for that 🫂
YOOO I HAVE LONG ARMPIT HAIR TOO :D AND MY FAMILY GAVE ME A TON OF SHIT ABOUT IT TOO (i mean that and refusing to wear a shirt inside our house in 90 degree weather lol) aAAaAAAA!!!
I am so glad that my love of conventionally maligned features has spread to you! I've always had affection for the monstrous (and i use that word in a wholly positive meaning) body and it's spread to features most people consider unattractive and ugly. partially because I AM monstrous, partially because I politically and morally believe it's important to include, and partially because I would just be so unbelievably bored with the homogeneous standard of beauty most people tend to like.
and a dozen other reasons lmao. including a belief that disgust and adoration are closely linked but THIS ISN'T MY PERSONAL- unless...
NO BUT LIKE WHEN I DESIGN CHARACTERS I TRY TO THINK TO MYSELF, like, what haven't I seen enough of? What would I like to see more? like its my art I can literally draw whatever i want!! aaaAA sorry i'm rambling, I hope I haven't offended you with all this babbling about monstrosity or anything. I get so overwhelmed when I remember the way I feel when I'm presented with something beautiful and thats kind of how i feel about butch women. Like I'm stopped in my tracks.
I'm not religious but sometimes I remember the way I watched nature documentaries growing up and I remember the way I would hold my breath and feel my chest tingle with wonder, like, how BEAUTIFUL. How WONDERFUL that something I could never have imagined exists in the same world as I do?? That's like how I feel with butch women. so called "ugly" people, people who decide to just EXIST even fully aware that they'll get shit about it. how beautiful. how exquisite. one day I want to be just like them.
OK IM BEING WEIRD AGAIN SORRY
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Hi Jen, I was hoping I could get some advice! I'm a butch lesbian, and I like one of my femme coworkers who is single and around my age. She seems to like me too, and even called me cute the other day. She also told me that purple is my color and when I wear it she compliments me on it. She remembers little details about me that I've mentioned; the only thing is is that she doesn't text me back even if she's on her phone all the time. I'm trying to get a feel for whether she likes me back, but it's hard to tell the difference between women just being kind and women flirting. Do you have any ideas about what could be flirting and what could be just being nice, especially from a femme to a butch? Thanks!
A few years ago I would have said don't date or ask anyone you work with out because it can cause awkward or even unbearable work conditions for both of you HOWEVER, my mind has changed and here is why.
These days finding love, or even connection with another human, especially in the lesbian dating world is way harder than finding a few job. Jobs are plentiful, femmes you are attracted to are not. And we spend a majority of our "social" time at work. Work is a quite acceptable place to meet and befriend others as adults. Nowhere else do we have the ability to be around another group of people as often as when we are at work. 40 plus hours is more than many of us spend engaging family or friends off of our phone.
I am a firm believer in being clear and direct while also being respectful. Ask her AFTER you clock out or out of work. Not when a shift is about to start or when you are clocked in. Just ask "I like you, would you consider going on a date with me?". Use "date", form it as a question she can answer yes or no to and know exactly what she is consenting to or turning down. DON'T add things like "it is okay if you say no" or "it is fine if you don't want to". This is wishy washy and sounds like you are expecting a "no" which might make her wonder why.
If she says "no" be respectful. "Thanks for being honest, I am glad I asked so I know the anwer" or "Ok. friends it is". It might be, probably will be, awkward for a few days but it will fade and then you can enjoy the friendship knowing where you stand. There is no reason to spend time and energy trying to decifer every action and word. Butches are great and we have many talents but mind reader is not one of them.
Some people are just terrible texters and prefer in person communication. When she is on her phone it is perhaps her "check out" time. Scrolling TikTok or watching videos etc and texting is effort she doesn't want to think about or do.
I completely agree that telling the difference if a femme is flirty by nature or flirting with me in particular is a monumental, if not impossible task. That is why I ask. My last girlfriend had to come right out and say "this is me flirting with you and you can flirt back, I like you". Otherwise we might have never got beyond her attempts to get me to take a step into dating her. We would still be circling each other. LOL
Many femmes are almost expected to make the first move because butches are clear and visible lesbians and it can be a bit risky for a butch to assume a femme is a femme, even great gaydar can get it wrong sometimes and as butches we never want to offend or make a woman uncomfortable. She might be lobbing signals at you to let you know you can ask her out or that she is interestd. From her point of veiw, it might be nice if SHE was asked out for once.
If she says "yes' you get to go on a date and see if there is chemistry. Be honest with yourself and her if there is not and go from there. If she says "no" you can stop wasting energy on the idea and move to friendship. Either way you are ahead of where you are now which is wondering and guessing.
Good luck!
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Kid...just accept you are a lesbophobe, many lesbians are offended, wtf is wrong with you
is it my supposed lesbophobia you're making up that's offending you, or just my unapologetic bisexuality? be honest with yourself, and me lol lmao.
i will gladly accept i'm a lesbophobe, by your own standards, if you wish to water it down to bi women living authentically, culturally, and without your permission or needed authority. i would recommend not doing that since it'll only do more harm to your fellow lesbians and how they're perceived in the long run than i ever would, but you and your gang all do you ─ after all, who am i to tell a lesbian anything, right?
i wonder, what makes me a threat to you? is it my dykehood (1, 2, 3, 4)? is it my butch identity (1, 2, 3)? is it my standing ground against radfem-founded lesbian victimhood? is it my taking up space in sapphic spaces, where i belong? is it that bisexuality isn't clean enough to keep lesbian spaces pure? is it literally anything and everything that i have covered somewhere already, or can soon cover if you'd like to bring it up to me in another ask? care to specify some more? (the posts supply plenty of sufficient sources, if/when necessary.)
^^ btw, the first two proposals are already sourced in my blog description, but i understand you probably refuse to read into them out of fear that they'll challenge your opinions and beliefs rooted in separatist rhetoric. though, i'm giving you another chance to try again and step back from denying bi womens' places in lesbian history in order to intentionally erase them.
also, you came back again a few minutes later with this:
Speaking over lesbians huh
but have you ever considered all the speaking over bisexuals you're doing? i'm sure you probably have and then vehemently dismissed it out of disregard for our community, since people like you hate being associated with bi women so much, but if that's the case then why should i show you any sort of respect in return? you get what you give. i will not treat this dynamic like a one-way street because it isn't, and if that angers you then it doesn't sound like my/our problem; only yours.
lastly, while i'm not even close to offended, i just have to wonder why you called me "kid" in this context, as if talking down to me with the assumption that i'll listen to you without question. could just be because it's your slang, but if you know i'm 17 and you're in your 20s or older, i warn now that you're gonna get eaten the hell up by other people your age who actually know what they're talking about and can/will shut you down quickly. ignorance towards common and important community information you should already know will not benefit you. good luck with that!
if you still won’t let yourself take some humility, maybe you can sit down through all the next discussions you see about this stuff. just my humble thought. in the meantime, the block button is right there waiting for you and i’ll never have to know your name + embarrass you with it.
#chase answers#bi tag#biphobia#bimisogyny#biphobic lesbians#slur discourse#d slur#dyke posts#butch tag#butch/femme discourse#butch bi#bi history#lesbian history#lesbian separatism#i probably shouldn't have spent so much time responding to someone who clearly won't listen#but hey i like the way i wrote it and i can easily use it as a future reference in similar arguments#perhaps i'm talking to a brick wall but this will open up a door leading to uneducated people idk
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Could you write Butch reacting to someone (reader) having the biggest crush on him? Like blushing, stuttering, all that jazz
AHHHHHH yes ofc sorry you are my first real ask anon so I am very excited lol, ik it probably won’t be the best since I’m just starting to write fanfiction but thank you so much for the ask anon!
Butch Gilzean x Gn!reader
Description: Butch never really thought anyone could like him, never mind Y/n, what happens when Y/n is talking to their coworker at Fish’s place and Butch overhears?
Warnings: None really, maybe nervousness? Fluff and a kiss
I DO NOT GIVE PERMISSION FOR THIS TO BE ANYWHERE EXCEPT ON MY TUMBLR AND WATTPAD, my wattpad is @itz_sugarrocky.
A/n: I might start naming these btw so if anyone has any suggestions lmk!
| not my gif |
Y/n was serving at the bar with their coworker Olivia, when they sew him walk in. Butch Gilzean, Fish’s right hand man. He disappeared with Fish going upstairs, and Y/n sighs.
“Alright that is enough Y/n, why don’t you just tell him already? What could go wrong” Olivia asked snapping Y/n out of their daydream.
“Olivia! I’m not sure if you remember but, news flash, everything can go wrong. He could get offended and fire me, he can do that ya know, or he could just laugh in my face! Now that would be a detrimental blow to my self esteem. PLUS how would I even tell him, what just walk up to him and say he’s pretty or that I love his sm- why are you smiling like that?” Y/n asked Olivia, who was smiling like the Cheshire cat. Y/n turns around to see that the one and only Butch Gilzean was sitting right behind them waiting to order but instead got Y/n’s confession that they had a crush on him. Y/n’s face turns a bright shade scarlet red, they couldn’t think of anything to say so they turned and just walked out of the club.
Butch was sitting there dumbstruck, Y/n, the one person he just knew couldn’t like him. I mean, he was part of the mob, that made it hard enough to find friends much less a partner. He looks at Olivia with a dazed look on his face.
“Unbelievable, what are you doing! You told me yesterday you wanted to tell them you liked them and here you are after they admit that they like you too, granted it was on accident, you’re still sitting here! GO AFTER THEM!” And just like that Butch snaps out of it and follows the direction Y/n went. He ends up finding them outside leaning against the wall of the club. About a minute went by before Y/n noticed butch was standing next to them, an uneasy silence being shared along with the noises of Gotham surrounding them, both waiting for the other to say something, anything.
“I’m sorry I-” “Y/n look-” both of them started to say at the same time and they both burst out laughing, thinking this was as ridiculous and cliche as it is in the movies. As the laughter faded Butch took the opportunity to say what he needed to say, and with every second his face got redder and redder from nervousness and slight embarrassment.
“Y/n, l-look, I heard what you said back there and I just gotta know, d-” Butch cleared his throat
“Did you mean it?” He looked towards Y/n, waiting for their response, only to see they were already looking at him.
“Of course I meant it, I’ve had a crush on you since I started working here, was I really able to keep it from you this long? You’d think a guy who’s climbing up the ladder in the mob scene would notice something as stu-” then before Y/n could finish their sentence Butch kissed them. It was a shot and light kiss, but enough to convey their feelings for one another, it ended as quickly as it began but the moment was ruined by a call from Fish. Butch hung up the phone and turned to Y/n.
“Sorry I gotta go, but how ‘bout dinner tonight, I know a place with the best Italian food.”
“That sounds perfect” Y/n said warmly
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1. [crush reacts badly to confession] - Masterlist 2. Fsr, Ft, Ul, Ot, Mf.
Again, I absolutely love you for putting which masterlist that was from.
Here’s the original answer for the regulars
And the prompt:
Charm: well one fun thing about him, when he has a crush on someone, like actual “I really love this person” feelings, he shuts down and just stops flirting with them. His crud is probably the only person he isn’t handsy or flirty with. Charm wouldn’t confess either so he doesn’t qualify
Sugar: he’s very perceptive and knows for a fact that his crush likes him back. So sugar gives them their space to calm down, but the next day he invited them over, privately of course, to ask if he did something to hurt their feelings. When crush tells him why, sugar will understand completely. He’s been through the exact same thing before. He promises that he means it, and that he’ll make crush feel like the most loved person on earth if they give him a chance.
Lord: oh big ouch. He’s normally more perceptive than this, but with how nervous he was confessing, lord only sees the rejection and not the reason behind it. He also starts acting cold and distant around crush. They’ll have to open up to him themself if they want the misunderstanding to clear
Mutt: he doesn’t give a flying fish. Mutt assumes crush probably thought he was just playing (and considering all the strangers he goes through, it’s not exactly unfounded). He’s not giving up though. Mutt will keep confessing till crush either gives in and tries a date, tells him what’s wrong, or tells him to bugger off for the last time
Pluto: really though, pluto is one of the most honest sweethearts out there. Even with the crappy past experiences, it would be a stretch to think Pluto would pull a cruel prank like that. Especially when he looks so dejected after crush’s rejection. This boy has no control over his expressions at all lol
Jupiter: when he confesses, he likes to show off a little, so I can see how crush would think he’s just doing it as a joke or an attention grab. Jupiter is more likely to think he misread the signs than to think there’s something else at work. He knows he’s a pretty domineering personality and doesn’t want crush to feel like he’s pressuring them. Jupiter pretends the confession never happened. If crush wants a second chance, they’ll have to confess themself
Peaches: he knows that look. He does the same thing when people make fun of his voice and intelligence. Peaches will tell crush to calm down and that he’s not poking fun. He’s serious. He really does love them, and he would love to prove it
Rancher: he gets hurt and a little offended. His feelings aren’t an attack. Rancher can deal with rejection, but that doesn’t give crush the right to be so mean afterwards. His words make crush realize that he’s serious. Hopefully they apologize and tell him what’s wrong. Rancher would forgive and apologize himself immediately, but he’s not a mind reader. He doesn’t know what crush is thinking
Butch: it depends on how long he’s known crush. If it’s long enough, his big brother senses will start tingling, and butch will sense that there’s something crush is hiding. He’s surprisingly gentle when he asks if he said something bad. When crush confesses about their past experiences, butch will roast their bullies to help crush feel better lol, then insist that he really meant it. He likes them more than just a friend
Boss: there’s a lead up to when boss confesses feelings for someone. He spends more time with them, becomes very gentle and even playful sometimes, and he basically has already taken that person on dates before, even if they didn’t call them that. So unless crush is the most oblivious person on earth, they really should’ve seen this coming. After the rejection, boss goes straight back to treating them like all his normal friends. Not cold, but he’s not sweet like he used to be. And even if crush confesses back and told him why, he would struggle to feel close to them. It hurt that his crush didn’t trust him to be serious
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what songs/albums would you recommend as an introduction to the pet shop boys?
omg what an awesome message to wake up to...definitely worked on this instead of my homework this morning. i love pet shop boys even though sarah @viir-tanadhal only got me into them in like, august or september (she is THE psb expert along with @loiteringdiligently).
in my opinion, pet shop boys are like, the best 80s synthpop group. chris lowe is the keyboardist and writes some absolutely incredible music...he has picked all their covers which are all just. wow. neil tennant is the vocalist and writes some really phenomenal lyrics. his voice is quote melancholy which creates a really lovely juxtaposition in the psb sound. anyway, lets get into it.
their top hits...a good place to start
“always on my mind” is the first psb song i really got into! it’s a cover of a song made popular by elvis and it’s just really fun synthpop
“being boring” has been described to me as psb’s magnum opus - and it really is brilliant. addressing the aid’s crisis and growing up, this song from their 1990 album behavior is gorgeous and incredible
“left to my own devices” is another one of my favorites. it’s more of a speak-singing style but the orchestration and lyricism is some of their best and holds a lovely tension
“it’s a sin” is a catholic school banger (as a bruce fan i know you get it)
“go west” is another cover of a village people song about being gay and going to sf after the aids crisis. another massive banger
other songs that i think SLAP and show off some elements of why they are great
“love etc” i have been getting my roommate into psb and this is one of his favorites. it’s really pop and very fun
“i wouldn’t normally do this kind of thing” is a wonderful gay dance song about being in love and i love it
“the last to die” is from their 2013 album and is a SPRINGSTEEN COVER!!!! i almost forgot to put it on here...but its really good obviously
“bilingual” is much more latin influenced. a very fun, very bisexual song
“the sodom and gomorrah show” this is another song with great orchestration and build up. should have been a single
“home and dry” is off their most acoustic album which i am a HUGE fan of. yearn-y
“will-o-the-wisp” and “burning the heather” are both off their most recent album. will-o-the-wisp shows that they still can make absolute bangers. “burning the heather” is just a really sweet, gorgeous song because i feel like this list under-represents their skill at slow songs
“west end girls” was their first no1 and the quintessential psb hit. honestly it’s not my favorite but i figure i can’t make this list without it lol
albums!
actually is their second album (fairly similar to their first and also incredible please) which i think really shows off their early sound. if list rankings matter to you, it was on the rolling stone top 500 albums of all time lol, and includes some hits that i didn’t previously rec like “what have i done to deserve this” (with dusty springfield) and “opportunities (lets make lots of money)” and lots of tongue-in-cheek political commentary like “shopping”
very is my favorite album. it is a great balance of phenomenal songwriting and incredible tunes with interesting and clever lyrics across a variety of emotions, and it’s a little more filled out than actually. it has a phenomenal album tracklist that just flows and i like to listen to it when i run. my favs that havent already been recced are “yesterday when i was mad” and “young offender.” “can you forgive her” and “dreaming of the queen” are both really great lyrically as well.
behavior is also one of their best works. at first i honestly didn’t like it that much because its a little more chill and good for listening to when ur in a mood. along with “being boring,” “this is the place i waited years to leave” “to face the truth” and “so hard” are all songs i like a lot
one of these three is probably the best to start with and will get you acquainted with psb. they have 14 studio albums, all of which are pretty good, and definitely encompass a range of different emphases from like, electronic acoustic to edm club bangers
further watching/listening
they performed this medley at the 2009 brit awards with lady gaga and brandon flowers (there is also a studio version on spotify) that sounds awesome and is a great introduction to their many years of hits
if you’re a killers fan...they do a great remix of “read my mind” and they performed “always on my mind” together at glastonbury 2019
they did a very fun song with robbie williams called “she’s madonna” which is very 00s pop, and produced “losing my mind” for liza minnelli. both good listens that you can feel the psb influence in
i just like their live version of “girls and boys” by blur idk
their music video for “how can you expect to be taken seriously” makes fun of bruce springsteen (not like..in a bad way?) among others (and neil wears a “butch” belt lol). i love this AND their cover of “where the streets have no name”
if you are really bored and want to read a little...
this is an incredibly good retrospective review of their 1990 album of behavior
this is a good recent article from the guardian about their career, their new album, and helps you get a little bit of a handle on their dynamic. i just like it because they say that the acoustic guitar should be banned
okay i really typed SO much because i was having so much fun so i hope something on this list catches your eye! i am happy to talk about psb all the time as both sarah and my roommates know so PLEASE let me know what you think of whatever you listen to!
#ask#pet shop boys#i really spent WAY too long on this when i should have been doing work but thats ok bc it was fun#also this IS sarah approved#faithforgottenland
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Winter Begonia recap episode 22
The beginning of the episode is a recap of the last episode, where XIao Zhouzi begs Shang Lao Ba to take him away from Si Xi’er and Er Ye promising to save him from the clutches of that old bish. They shooed away by the skittish guide. Outside, Shang Lao Ba asks Er Ye to confirm whether he will help out find a way to get the young talented singer out of his ongoing nightmare. He discuss how abused the young singer is by his master, who is keeping him from performing and forcing him to do hard labor. The skittish guide takes his leave, but not before Er Ye buys off his silence. LOL, Shang Lao Ba’s face.
OMG its MY QUEEN. She is engaged in a fierce gunfight and I doubt it is with that stuttering Gu. One of her men falls, hit by the bullets and confirm my suspicions. He claims the opposite side is not from the common army. He urges her to leave since she is pregnant. Awww, my queen is crying. She is loyal and fierce. MAH GIRL. As she wipes her tears, she states with resolve in her face they will fall back while searching for a solution. We see what appears to be soldiers shooting at them as she escapes. Hmmm could they be from a private army? It is night and she is lurking near some kind of base ready to break into like a boss, but is stopped by a coming car. She smirks as she realizes the golden opportunity to hide under the truck. OHHH, looks here! Her hub hub, Cao Jr. listening to a report from adjutant Sun about Nanjing mobilizing a separate battalion of two hundreds to come to Beijing for some kind of economic and social order. LOL, what?This is what you waste your time on instead of protecting the country against potential invaders? Cao Jr is not quite impressed by this news and asks who is the commander. Sun tells him it’s Liu Hanyun, our penguin’s godfather. Hmmm..Oh, so we learn that Liu Hanyun has defeated many bandit groups and wheels start turning inside my head. Could he be responsible for the attack on Gu Dali’s group? Oh, our hub hub is asking Sun if Laozi Mountain has been hit. Unfortunately, Sun is a bit lost by the question, prompting the hub hub to dismiss him. While he paces, worried about the whereabouts of his mountain queen, she barges inside his room ready to pounce on him. LOL, is he running away from her? BWAHAHA, I cannot! He asks how she got inside his compound and she is like, why are you asking. He asks why she is bloody and she accuses him of being the cause of her current state. As she is about to stab him, he blocks her hand and asks if Laozi Mountain is really in trouble, which stuns her.
A couple of very cute boys are practicing their poses while Zhouzi is singing for Si Xi’er. Oh these cute boys are as petty as their master, no likey. Geezus xrist, there is only young good looking troupe members, smh. Si Xi seems dissatisfied by what he hears and asks the young singer to sing again. He does and Si Xi claims his vocals sound annoying. As he is about to beat him with that wooden sword, someone calls out for him. He tells Zhouzi he should practice more if he ever wants a chance to sing on stage, which I doubt he will ever let him do so, and sends him back to the courtyard to do some more hard work.
At the freight agency office, Fan Lian barges in at the same moment Manager Ma is giving CFT a report of the business. He tells CFT that Si Xi is too sly for him, having uncovered Fan Lian ruse to send his people and pose as wealthy patrons interested in borrowing some of his performers. Instead of putting his best performers, he chose the tone deaf and ugly ones. LOL. His men were too afraid to make it obvious they were there for Zhouzi, especially as Si Xi claimed he was selling out any one for private performances. In order to get Zhouzi out, they are going to have find another way, like a complete strange with no connection to the opera circe, since Si Xi will sniff them out. CFT is afraid that Si Xi may get wind of Shang Lao Ba’s interest for Zhouzi and kill him before they have a chance to snatch him. Fan Lian wonders who would qualify for that role of being a wealthy loafer who could easily host an opera performance without raising suspicion. LOL, Fan Lian would have fit the bill if he was not linked to Shuiyin. He suggest that CFT goes to the Chamber of Commerce, which I have to admit is a good idea, but unfortunately it is shut down as CFT informs him that none of those members would agree to help his foreign sexy ass. Right at this moment, Cao Jr and another guest are announced.
It turns out the other guest is the fierce mountain Queen who is ready to pounce on Cao Jr, angry that he is telling her to stay put instead of seeking revenge immediately. Our lonely warrior is looking mighty fine in a gray western clothing, I would also be pouncing on him if I was Gu Dali. He promises to seek revenge but he wants to do carefully since his opponent is a government official. She pushes him away clearly unhappy with his inaction. He turns to CFT hoping he could mediate between the two, but CFT seems lost somewhere, lol, hopefully thinking of his penguin. LOL. Cao Jr asks him to seek a safe place for his mountain queen, which befuddles CFT. He asks why isn’t she staying in his military base, since she is such a soft butch (and looking good as one). Cao Jr drops the mini bomb on CFT, informing him that he is going to be a papa. CFT is stumped by the news and then burst into a giggle. I laugh along with him at how prodigious our lonely warrior was. He congratulates him with a thumbs up for getting it at the first shot while our Amazonian and lonely warrior looks at him like he was cray cray. LOL, I cannot with this show. He states he will send congratulations to the Commander for becoming a grandpa which gets our Amazonian Queen taking her badge of honor as tough single mum-to-be. No one is going to raise mah son but me, f them Cao men, this baby is going to be king of the mountain! This gets the sexiest laugh out of Cao Jr. Seriously, he is looks so hot when his face is relaxed, le swoon. He asks what if it is a girl, and of course our Amazonian Queen puts him in his place by stating the girl would be like her momma. Seriously, why even bother asking that question Cao Jr? Unless...someone wants to keep his badass queen next to him. CFT is looking at the incongruous couple like it was a comedic opera and struggling not to laugh. Cao Jr kicks him in the shin to get him to support his point. CFT tries to tamper our two rugged warriors, bringing some levity to the situation. He urges the amazonian queen to not be rash and lay low in a safe place of his choosing, while they await for news about Liu Hanyun. Cao Jr informs him the politician will be in the city under the guise of inspecting economic and social order, but it is in fact an opportunity to investigate CFT’s smuggled weapons side business and the Cao’ involvement. They both comment this visit is suspicious af and may not have good intentions, which will harm both families. He asks our lonely warrior for another assist with something, which I have the sneaky suspicion has to do with his penguin.
A woman is walking dressed in a velour cheonsang and OMG, it my Amazonian QUEEN. She’s at Yunxi Troupe and Si Xi asks where she’s from. She tells him she’s from Shandong and is the wife of a powerful businessman. She is looking for a performer to relieve her boredom. Geez, it sounds like he is selling a rent boy as he tells her what his young cast can do for her, like take her to the best places in Beijing to entertain herself. She’s like, stop buttering me up with these subpar candidates, asking him about a boy she saw with him at Huibin House called Xiao Zhouzi. Ohhh, is that white lie going to work on slick Si Xi? His face change and tells her that Xiao Zhouzi is too disappointing to be up here. Yeah, I doubt it. She tells him she will decide for herself, whether the young performer is worthy or not. One of her ‘guards’ shows him the money, which makes him change his tune real quick. They head to where Zhouzi is being held. Upon seeing them swapped money, he is terrified and gets on his knees, begging Si Xi’er not to let him go. Geez, as he been in this situation before? When Zhouzi said he will do anything as long as he gets a chance to perform on stage, Si Xi’s pettiness tells him tough break. Gu Dali and her ‘goons’ take Zhouzi despite his protestation, knocking him out to make sure he complies. LOL asks himself whether Mrs. Wang (Gu Dali’s disguise) is a bandit and I SQUEAL. He looks on at his ‘disciple’ and basically wax poetic to say ‘tough luck buddy’.
He is dropped off in front of a building and hears someone singing opera. He stumbles and we see our cute penguin on stage. OHHH, so they dropped him off at the Royal Theater! Nice. Our cute penguin being absolutely adorable while asking Zhouzi how old is he. The boy answers 14, which impresses our penguin for the innate talent the boy has. He promises him he will help him soar if he is willing. Our poor baby Zhouzi is so overwhelms, he faints. Apparently he was starving and he chows down on a pig trotter like life depended on it. Er Ye comments that their adoptive son is much like his other father. LOL, indeed. The cutie hubby tells his son to not listen to his other dad, and eat to his heart’s content. Apparently Si Xi never let his harem of young boys eat meat because he doesn’t want them to get fat. LOL, the face on our chipmunk upon hearing this. He replies that if that was true, Cai Lao Ba would not sell tickets since he is fat. Er Ye reprimands him, telling Cai Lao Ba is plump, not fat and tells Shang Lao Ba to be careful not to say this aloud or offend someone again. LOL, it fell on deaf ears as Shang Lao Ba basically curses Si Xi with an early death, saying to Zhouzi that as soon as the old bat is six feet under, he will be free to make his name. Best girl Xiao Lai is like OMG leader, please don’t say such ominous things. Once again, Er Ye tells him not to teach their kid awful things like this, especially if Si Xi does survive past the age of 90. Shang Lao Ba replies that all of his effort (hmmm...you mean all of Er Ye’s efforts) to snatch Zhouzi is because he believes he will have immediate success and that will ensure he will be protected from any abuse. Er Ye smiles at his baby and we get a smile from Shang Lao Ba in return. Is this the first time they both smile so openly to each other? You can see an enormous shift in their relationship as both are so relaxed with each other. Shang Lao Ba wonders about Zhouzi’s stage name, clearly dissatisfied with his current name. Er Ye is like, honey, you suck at naming people, giving names like Red January, Red February and so on. Shang Lao Ba is like, bae, the only reason why my troupe members have such sucky name is because I was not really putting too much attention to it, but when he does, the performer would greatly benefit from it. LOL, Er Ye is like, ok honey, go ahead and see what that pretty head of yours come out with. Shang Lao Ba says the name must have a flowery flow especially since Zhouzi is a dan ju’er while hubby looks at his beauty like he is the most beautiful flower he’s plucked. Seriously, those gazes are killing me. Shang Lao Ba gives the name of Zhou Xiangyun. Sigh, how I wished I understood the meaning of his name.
Hubby writes their son’s new name and shows his beautiful calligraphy to his wifey. Wifey comments the writing has both the flow of grass and grain, and hands the paper to his adoptive son so he can learn his new name. Zhou kowtows in front of his new leader/father, so grateful by the gesture, he tells Shang Lao Ba he doesn’t know how to repay him. LOL our penguin tells him to repay him with daily serving of pig trotter since he devoured today’s serving. He sends best girl to help settle Zhou at Shuiyin House, while hubby asks how is Zhou going to buy pig trotter for him when he barely makes any money. Wifey answers that best girl will give him the money. Er Ye asks his bae if their bouncing baby boy is ready to become a ju’er. Our penguin says it is complicated to say, twirls while doing his elegant opera gestures and sashay away from the room while his suave Er Ye smiles, probably thinking how cute his wifey is.
Best girl brings Zhou Xiangyun to the dormitory where the younger male members are sleeping. Oh boy, you can already smell the bullying as they basically said they would not sleep around Si Xi’er former disciple. Best girl tries to wield her authority with the boys, getting them to clear up an area for the bouncing baby to sleep. They seemingly comply but you can tell they are going to push him out as soon as she turns around and leaves. My poor baby, can he catch a break? Especially since they treat him like he has the plague. Finally La Yuehong helps him out, putting our baby’s things next to him. Zhou Xiangyun spots the beautiful golden bracelets that LYH kept from his senior sister. Zhou glances at his benefactor and I ship it. Later at night, ZXY is kicked out of the bedroom, drawing attention from his new leader. Shang Lao Ba asks who did this to him, but the already broken boy is not willing to snitch. SIGH, he is too sweet, is he going to survive in this cutthroat world of opera? Shang Lao Ba goes inside to investigate and admonish the other boys. Dasheng pretends to be sleeping, prompting Shang Lao Ba to throw his shoe at him. Each one, except for LYH who remains quiet, act innocent as if ZXY threw himself out. SXR knows they are lying, telling them they are wasting their acting talent on this issue instead of the opera. One of the performer asks why he is so protective of an outsider, especially Si Xi’er disciple. He tells them ZXY is far better than all of them, which gets them rankled. One of them is like, how can this kid be better than me when I came from a proper academy while he came from the cesspool that is Yunxi Troupe. SXR decides they will have a contest to prove ZXY has more chops than all of them; if he loses, he will give them an additional wage. ZXY wants to back out, but Shang Lao Ba is like how are you going to prove you have what it takes if you cannot even perform in front of them?
He takes him to his room and have a father/son talk. SXR tells him how he uses to fight against bullies, but since Si Xi’er abused him, his spirit has been broken. AWWW. He tells him not to worry and sing his best, even if SXR ends up losing money. As our little puppy is talking about repaying him for all the good things he’s done form, SXR falls asleep. LOL. Our penguin snores so loudly. The next day, the boys ask LYH to represent them against ZXY in the little contest, which he declines at first, stating he did not participate in the bullying, but relents as the other performer convinces him with the promise of extra wages. This gets SXR snickering and he tells his newfound prodigy to remain calm and sing accordingly. If he wins, he will treat him to good food; if he loses, he won’t beat him. ZXY is still hesitant, scared of singing in front of a gathering, but SXR tells this is small compared to the size of a real audience. LYH introduces himself as a laosheng ju’er while our hesitant baby boy struggles to introduce himself and his role. SXR comments on that, predicting he will probably lose. LOL. He asks them to perform Meilongzheng (The Emperor and Country Girl), the same opera he sang back in episode 2 when he saw his future husband for the second time and got married on the spot, after being rescued by his dashing prince from the rich spoiled brats. At first, our broken little puppy is unable to sing properly, sounding like a cat whose tail was stepped on. Like seriously, what the hell was that? He stops telling SXR he was too nervous. SXR tells him not to be so anxious and let his voice flow from his throat, not by forcing it. He starts over again and it sounds much better. LYH sings along and everything looks great, while our suave hubby comes to the courtyard to bring his bae breakfast. AWWWWWWW, I can’t! Where is my Er Ye???? Btw, the lyrics are quite interesting and seems to describe our main couple’s relationship: “This Begonia brings out the romantic.” This freaking show is dropping hints so loud, you have to blind and deaf not to see it glaringly clear. Our suave prince stands in the entrance, away from everyone’s gaze and watches the show right as as ZXY loses the plot. LYH is exasperated with the kid, believing he was worth the trouble and storms out. Best girl yells at LYH and defends ZXY for being inexperienced, which gets one of the sheng performers to accuse her of being swayed by the kid’s good looks, which gets Shi Jiu hot under the collar. I guess all she can insult people like that. LOL. SXR tells everyone to stop arguing, informing them he knows of ZXY potential and what he is capable of. The same performer tells his leader to stop giving the kid excuses, more interested in knowing if he will get the additional wages. At this time, our suave dashing hubby steps in, steps in, calling his wifey out for breakfast. RAWR, what a good hubby!
Shang Lao Ba asks why hub hub is here so early. LOL, this reminds me of the novel and how much of night owl CFT is while SXR is an early bird. Er Ye explains that he was standing there watching the performance and wanted to know how Shang Lao Ba was going to judge this contest. Shang Lao Ba states the kid’s performance was not that great, sounding like a couple of cats’ howling. LOL. Er Ye cautions his wifey on how he is going to judge ZXY, worried this will increase the bullying if he is declared a loser, but Shang Lao Ba replies favoring the potential prodigy will actually draw more ire from the rest of the troupe. I am with Shang Lao Ba on this. It is clear these performers respect only one thing and that is talent. He tell Er Ye about his own case of stage fright, which surprises the hubby, probably thinking his babe was born on the stage. Shang Lao Ba replies that anyone with pride has stage fright and he is right about this. Because you tend to want to be perfect, you actually get inside your head and get so nervous you forget how to perform. Er Ye asks how he was able to face his stage fright and once again we are reminded of the horrible abuse our penguin suffered to reach the top. His dad actually paraded him naked in front of everyone, from the backstage to home. Er Ye is disgusted by the poor treatment his baby went through, stating he would never used this kind of treatment. Shang Lao Ba casually claim the embarrassment is so extreme that you will never be scared or cowardly. Er Ye urges him not to use this method with ZYX because the broken boy would probably be so traumatized, he might jump off a bridge. Yeah, I believe it. Shang Lao Ba is like, oh is it because I am thick-skinned while ZYX is thin-skinned. Well despite you being physically abused, you were never told that you would amount to nothing, especially get on stage. Er Ye laughs and replies that he needs to find another method. Seriously, sounds like an old married couple talking about how to raise their kids. I CANNOT SKHHKHKHFLKJ
SXR gets out of the house and announces LYH is the winner, therefore the performers will get an additional wage. He calls out ZYX to follow him. They end up at the noodle restaurant and our broken boy starts the mea culpa. Shang Lao Ba tells him not to worry, he won’t scold him for failing, reassuring him it will take sometime to get good, He orders a cornucopia of food claiming the boy is too skinny. LOL. Seriously all that food! ZYX is like, boss, this is too much, but SXR replies he can take his time to eat all of it. ZYX tells him he is a good person and will repay him with hard work, but SXR is like don’t worry, just eat.
There was so many cute ChengShang moments, I melted into the ground. To see them talk as if they were an old married couple discussing their son’s education was the sweetest thing. It was interesting to find out that SXR did not put that much thought in naming some of his troupe members, which tells me he did not see them as more than supporting cast. This does not mean he doesn’t care, in fact, he considers them his siblings in the troupe, since they grew up together, but Zhouzi is the first true disciple he actually recognized, one he can elevate to surpass him. Let’s not forget, this is someone who is extremely passionate about the art, who can even get lost listening to other performers, so him recognizing someone’s innate talent is on par with his behavior.
I was also so happy to see my other ship, Gu Dali and Cao Guixi in their bickering self. Seeing Gu Dali in a dress again, OH MY QUEEN can rock a beautiful cheongsam when she wants too. I love her independence, even in front of the lonely warrior, telling him in no uncertain way that she will be the one raising their little bundle, he can step aside. The fact that Cao Jr actually needs his little uncle to help deal with this Amazonian Queen, BWAHAHA. This is so refreshing to see a woman, especially in that period, stand up and declare that she needs no dude to help her raise her family. What a contrast to the demure Er Nainai whose own strength was subdued by societal pressure. Yes, Gu Dali is a bandit, who probably do not ascribe to the set set of customs as Er Nainai, but nonetheless, it is somewhat disconcerting to see when framed in this context.
What do you guys think?
#winter begonia#episode recap#spoilers#chengshang#cheng fengtai#huang xiaoming#andrew yin#Yin Zheng#MY SHIP#Bromance#romance#chinese drama#chinese novel#Danmei#C drama#shang xirui#go watch this show
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103. my green fedora (1935)
release date: may 4th, 1935
series: merrie melodies
director: friz freleng
starring: tommy bond (peter)
this one has some interesting history. it’s seemingly a sequel to country boy. according to an interview by mike barrier, bob clampett claims he wrote the story for this episode for a story competition. here’s the quote from the interview, which you can read here:
“About the same time as the first Porky story, Leon announced a studio-wide contest, with a money prize to whichever member of the staff turned in the best original story. So many of us entered the contest that the animation footage went down. My story, which was about a rabbit family, won first prize, and was made as My Green Fedora. This gave me a big boost, since I'd just originated a couple of characters (Porky and Beans) and now I'd won the story contest.”
the porky and beans stuff is totally false—friz was the true creator of the two. bob clampett had a habit of passing off characters he didn’t make as his own. but, to be fair, that was just how it was in those days. directors weren’t viewed or respected the way they are today. if you didn’t make bugs bunny, you weren’t important. so EVERYONE in those days tried to pass off various characters as their own, but bob clampett was certainly the biggest offender. really, the characters were a collaborative effort (though they all have their origins, porky and beans originating from friz)
ANYWAY! some interesting history. an unofficial sequel to country boy, peter has to take care of his baby brother elmer, but a hungry weasel decides to intervene.
peter’s mother peeps her head outside the cottage door, looking for her mischievous son. her target overhears her calls, sneaking around the edge of the house and hoping not to get caught. too late. peter’s mother snags him from outside, dragging him in through an open window. it seems she’s going out for the day, collecting her picnic basket and hat. she instructs peter to watch his little brother, elmer (a favorite name for babies? remember cookie’s little brother elmer?) while she goes out to shop, adding a stern “and keep out of mischief!”
elmer watches his mother walk down the lane outside. the coast clear, he shifts his eyes around before puffing out his chest and wailing. what a good gag! we’ve all seen that baby who throws a tantrum just for the hell of it. they get some sort of amusement out of it in their tiny little brains. peter, clearly annoyed, shakes elmer’s rattle, who snags it up and beats peter on the head with it, wailing once more. i love how nonchalant he looks, propping himself up by the elbow and screaming like nobody’s business.
unable to take any more, peter plugs his ears and marches into the closet for relief. i’m sure all older siblings have felt like doing that with baby siblings, right? (i’m speaking as the youngest sibling, so i sympathize with elmer more than i do peter LOL.) peter sulks on a box inside the closet... until he spots a green fedora. he places it on his head and moves over to put on a coat hanging on a mannequin, which disperses into a cloud of moths. nevertheless, he finds a matching green coat hanging by the door and puts it on.
darting back into the nursery, peter sings the titular “my green fedora”. i love this scene! peter’s voice actor is tommy bond, who was butch in our gang/little rascals. he was also the voice of owl jolson in tex’s i love to singa. the scene is very cute—peter’s doing an impression of comedian joe penner, hence his guttural, slightly warbly but very endearing vocals. the dance he does is great, strutting around with a fake cigar. elmer laughs at the act, doing a joe penner laugh (which is highly annoying but VERY funny. peter finds it obnoxious and grimaces before continuing).
elsewhere, a hungry weasel pops its head out of its hole outside the cottage, overhearing peter’s singing. peter finishes the act and elmer gives another laugh, irritating peter. in fact, he’s so irritated that he throws the fedora on the ground, fedora bouncing back up a few times on his head. he tosses his coat on the ground and stalks angrily outside, leaving elmer to his own devices.
the hungry weasel recognizes he has his chance to get in and feast on some baby rabbit. he digs a hole under the floor, right under elmer’s rug. he gets in with ease and ties a handkerchief around his head to give the illusion of bunny ears, a gag daffy would use on porky to convince him he was the easter bunny in what price porky.
lovely staging. elmer, who had settled in for a nap, wakes up and spots the looming silhouette on his wall, happily exclaiming “mommy!” he turns around and screams—a very grotesque shot of the weasel’s bloodshot eyes and elongated snout. elmer tugs in the weasel’s snout and lets go, but it does little to shake the weasel. the weasel dumps elmer in a brown sack and leaps into the hole he dug, pulling the rug over it to cover his tracks.
meanwhile, peter is still sulking along outside. his mother’s words come back to him, and fear pings him. awww, it’s cute that peter has some remorse in this cartoon. i liked how mischevious he was in country boy, but this is a good balance between mischevious and caring. obligatory big brother duties. he senses something is wrong and rushes back to the house, only to find the nursery completely empty. while looking around frantically, he steps onto the rug and plummets right into the tunnel.
very moody lighting in the tunnel scenes, i love it! once peter stops tumbling, he lights a match to see better.
this lighting is phenomenal. the weasel picks up elmer and salts him, dumping him into a frying pan and roasting him over a flame. nice detail of hesitation—it takes just a second for the flames to actually burn elmer. the weasel shushes elmer’s screams, but elmer doesn’t listen, crying “help! help!”
thank god for peter! he overhears his brother’s screams, the match falling as he gets startled. he cries “elmer, elmer! where are you? elmer! i’m coming, elmer!” bad news for the weasel, who stuffs elmer back in the brown sack and takes off.
peter follows the weasel’s tracks through twists and turns. he pops his head out of a hole, where the weasel is waiting just to sock him in the face. can’t go wrong with some slapstick as peter propels through the twists and turns of the tunnels, popping out at ANOTHER hole where the weasel socks him, the pattern continuing.
it’s especially amusing to watch elmer, whose little ears are poking out of the sack, run away, just a sack with legs. the weasel chases him down, while peter falls out of the hole one last time in a daze, knocked unconscious. elmer drops through a hole and runs through some tunnels, parallel to the ones peter slid through. the animation is great. what’s funnier than seeing a little bag with feet run around aimlessly? the camera angles are very nice, too, and really add to the flow of the scene.
elmer is free! or so he thinks. he exits a tunnel and barrels straight into the butt of the weasel, who snatches him up and sneers. meanwhile, peter finally wakes up, immediately becoming punchy and shadow boxing with an invisible foe. the weasel spots he’s being followed once more and crouches in a tunnel. there are two tunnels—one continuing in the ground, one leading upwards. the weasel clogs the ground tunnel and serves as a ramp for peter to run up, running up a tree branch and falling back on his head, another gag that we’ll see quite often (such as in porky in wackyland).
thankfully, a hose is right next to the opening of the hole. a nice little underscore of “my green fedora” plays energetically as peter drowns the weasel out of his hiding place. various geysers gush out of multiple holes, including elmer, who’s closest to peter, and the weasel further away.
peter plugs the hole with his foot and reunites with his baby brother, freeing him from the sack. peter smiles as he increases the water pressure, sending the weasel flying into the air uncontrollably. once he’s high enough in the air, peter cuts off the water, sending the weasel crashing to the ground... right into a cactus patch. strange anecdote i suppose, but i remember one time we were staying at a vacation house which had a tiny little patch of cacti. i don’t know what happened or HOW it happened, but i remember my dad having to spend that night picking out a TON of cactus needles in my skin LOL. the curiosity of a 5/6 year old is a dangerous thing. i think that was the same year i accidentally tumbled down on some of the largest sand dunes on the east coast.
anyway, the weasel takes off in pain, and elmer gives his obnoxious joe penner laugh. all brotherly bonds are broken as peter, annoyed, turns on the hose and sends elmer into the air, smiling as he falls back down. wow, what an ending!
this is a really good merrie melody, especially for its time. friz doesn’t get enough credit. the merrie melodies are no mona lisa, but they definitely brought some much needed entertainment in the era of buddy. peter, elmer, and the weasel all have distinct personalities, archetypal as they may be. i LOVED peter. mischevious older brother who clearly didn’t sign up to be the older brother, but rushing to the rescue regardless. still, if the baby’s annoying, even after all they’ve been through, he’ll still squirt him with water! the song “my green fedora” is ridiculously catchy, peter’s less than perfect rendition very amusing and endearing. this feels a lot like a cartoon you’d see in the late 30s, like around 1938 or so. i definitely recommend it! bob clampett’s influence is certainly lingering. animation was nice, story was nice, characters were nice... i may also be biased since i have a big brother of my own, who i wish would send ME flying into the air with a hose. anyway, give it a watch! i can’t really think of many downsides to it. a happy, feel good cartoon.
link!
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Chats: Jo+Anna - The Trashfire Fights
(for lexy)
FIRST CHAT: Not sure the context but I believe it happened after the mind-wipe of Anna after Gray went to talk to Anna but actually before Grey removed the Whispering on Jo... (So you know where/what level Jo and Grey are at)
<Jo> http://www.geekologie.com/2012/08/another-day-another-zombie-themed-engage.php Its sad when I find these things and the train of thought goes:
<Jo> 1. I can see Jo agreeing to things just because its ‘adorable’ when really its not
<Jo> 2. And then she’d be killed by Ellen
<Anna> lolol
<Jo> 3. At least its not a salt-n-burn fire side romantic comment
<Anna> Anna..*smacks*
<Jo> …what?
<Anna> she’s..missing having girl company..and she’s debating which is better for it..Ruby or Jo and she’s leaning more towards Ruby
<Jo> LOL …/why/ is the question streaming from both Ruby and Jo right now
<Anna> “Jo’s sorta mannish…and Ruby..at least looks girly..”
<Jo> They are both laughing at her - loudly. Though Jo’s sort of offended which is just making Ruby laugh more
<Anna> lol
<Anna> Anna’s just sorta pouting..“it’s not my fault that they are the only choice I have for female friends..”
<Jo> “Ruby isn’t even a female.” “……………………….” “…”
<Anna> looooooool
<Anna> “she’s less butch than you”
<Jo> “/Gray/ is less butch than me. Doesn’t make him more of a female.”
<Anna> “So you’re the man in relationship?”
<Jo> “No! Well with you I guess I was, but no, I’m not….”
<Anna> “Guess that’s why I’m looking more towards Ruby..why do I want a second man in my life.”
<Jo> “If you can call what you do have a man.”
<Anna> “After the other night..He’s definately all man”
<Jo> “Good for you.”
<Anna> “Yes..he was..”
<Jo> “If you say so. …How was it after though? Did he stick around for breakfast?”
<Anna> “He didn’t stay for breakfast but he did stay till I woke up the next day.”
<Jo> “Aw how cute. So how long did the honeymoon last before whatever sent him packing without even grabbing a bit of you for snacking on the go?”
<Anna> “The threat of Crowley I guess”
<Jo> “Strange that such a 'manly’ guy as him would be run off by the overgrown demon.”
<Anna> “How come I’ve never ran into Grey outside of his house?”
<Jo> “Because. And he’s not being run off by anyone, especially if he’s staying in the one place, wouldrn you say?”
<Anna> “Right..surrounded by traps and iron..which wouldn’t stop Crowley..I guess that means that he’s simply afraid of normal demons. You really wish to throw stones at Gray for being afraid of Crowley when yours won’t even come outside?”
<Jo> “Actually its traps and salt, theres no iron in our house. And most of those are there because of the fact that, oh hey, I’m a hunter and he’s a monster and it’s second nature to protect ones home. As for throwing stones, I said that your’s is afraid to be with you because of Crowley not that he’s afraid of Crowley - theres a difference. Grey isn’t.”
<Anna> “Gray doesn’t strike me as being happy domestic housewife..he’s never said anything to make me believe that we lived together all the time. So why should I expect it now?”
<Jo> “I never said he had to be, I was just musing on the fact you say he’s leaving because of the threat of another man coming in to take his turn.”
<Anna> “there..no one else has a turn!”
<Jo> “And yet he had to leave in case Crowley showed up. Unless thats not why he left, so either you’re waiting for the wannabe god-demon to show up to see how his little /pet/ is going, or Gray left because he didn’t want to be around you after getting what he wanted. Or some other reason.”
<Anna> “Why are you making it sound so bad that he didn’t want to be around if Crowley did show up? He couldn’t stop him, Gray would have been killed and Crowley has no interest in killing me. So why are you trying to twist it to make it sound bad.”
<Jo> “I’m just intruiged is all - doesnt really sound like a typical Gray-like response. ..his kind are really quite territorial you know.”
<Anna> “Tell you what, if you want to know so bad, ask him.”
<Jo> “…Nah.”
<Anna> “Well if you don’t want to ask him then stop being a bitch.”
<Jo> “But you’re fun when you puff up and get red.”
<Anna> “You are such a bitch..”
<Jo> “Think you already said that. And I prefer bitch to butch, so I’m cool with it.”
<Anna> “Maybe you’re a bastard then being you’’ve been the man in all your relationships.”
<Jo> “I am not the man in my relationship at present, so there.”
<Anna> “Right…”
<Jo> “It’s true.”
<Anna> “Whatever.”
<Jo> “… …………do you have any idea how much I hate that word…”
<Anna> “yes.”
<Anna> “but whatever”
<Jo> “Fuck you.”
<Anna> “But you’re fun when you puff and get red. So whatever Jo..”
<Jo> “Oh God, you’re horrid, you know that right?”
<Anna> “Whatever..your hate of this word is interesting.”
<Jo> “…. Why do you say that..”
<Anna> “I’m seeing what you get out of making someone upset. Trying to understand why you feel this is proper entertainment at the expense of others.”
<Jo> “I dont try to upset people, I play with them. Theres a difference.”
<Anna> “oh so you play..with no reguard to how that playing effects them. Does your interest if Gray leaving me relate to the fact you were abandoned by your father?”
<Jo> “…Excuse you? I am not the one between us who was abandoned by their father!”
<Anna> “My father loved me, raised me, encouraged me to be whatever I could be in life. Your father put hunting above you and was killed by it. Isn’t that why you have such a problem committing to people?”
<Jo> “Oh you think that if you want to about your own father, but don’t you talk 'bout my dad like that. He was a good man. ….I…shut up, I don’t have problems commiting to people..”
<Anna> “Is that why you keep everyone at a distance? Playing with them? Keeping us at both a physical arms length and an even further emotional one? How did Grey slip past your defenses or can you just leave him at anytime, abandoning him too?”
<Jo> “My father has nothing to do with it.. You can’t be too open in this lifestyle.. …/I/ don’t abandon people, shut up.”
<Anna> “Please, you turned to hunting instead of taking of your clothes. You’re surrounded by men who could be old enough to be your dad and you’re constantly working to prove yourself to them. Do you seek out their praise when you do a hunt well?”
<Jo> “…I wou-..I dont even… …Maybe normal men my age bore me? They don’t know anything about the world and what’s really out there, and regardless of your suggestion - if a hunter lives long enough to get to that age they’re usually pretty decent men. It’s a /shame/ my father had what happened to him happen so young is all. There are plenty of hunters I talk to my own age, or close enough to, Anna. And I don’t need /anyone’s/ approval, god dammit..”
<Anna> “I see. And you’re wall of not being to open in this life? How does that hold up to the fact your father and your mother were open enough to get married, have you? Even after his death you’re mother stayed in the life, helped other hunters. She even gave them beds to sleep on at the roadhouse, tended them when they were hurt. I’ve heard hunters talk about it. Why do you have to be so guarded?”
<Jo> “There’s a difference between being on the road and being in the life the way Mom and hell, even Bobby a lot these days, are. ….And they were in love, people do things like get married and have babies when they’re in love. They were younger than I am too, so hey, maybe I’m just jaded like the other guys my age or near enough..”
<Anna> “But not you? You can’t be open to that because of the fact you’re a hunter? And how is being a hunter on the road and at a bar different? You still put yourself in danger. Why do you have so many walls? Open, playing, your stubbornness, why don’t you think you should have friendships and relationships that are closer than the arms distence that you keep everyone at?”
<Jo> “I… could get married and have babies one day, maybe. It’s not completely out of the realm of possibility.. On the road you can’t let your emotions get to you, at a bar.. you can be nicer and more open. Though you’re more likely to get hurt from friends never showing up again too. I do too have closer friends than that! And maybe I have a lot of walls to keep other people better off, hmm.”
<Anna> “Who are these closer friends? Are you not here as much as on the road? You have a home with someone, you aren’t living a nomads life. And would you say that "protecting” others by not letting them get close to you is for their own good out of your concern for them or from your need to control things?“
<Jo> "Dean.. Sam.. Grey.. …you. I didn’t mean to, it wasn’t my idea and then things got that I needed to be researching more than hunting at present but when that’s taken care of I’ll be on the road more than no again, sure.. I am not a control freak, if either of us were that would be you. I don’t like..I don’t want to hurt people so I’m not going to let them close enough to be, dah.”
<Anna> “You would call us close? Interesting because to me, from my perspective we are hardly anything but close. And it’s nice and controlling that you want to take away my choice at what risk to take being your friend, if we were that close to begin with. And you are going to abandon Grey by taking off and only stopping in on occassion. Isn’t that what you remember of your dad? The random visits?”
<Jo> “We /were/ close, maybe not now but we were before..things happened. …you know nothing about my dad, Anna, nothing at all.”
<Anna> “I don’t have to know anything about your dad. You present as your typical 'little girl lost’ case. But whatever Jo, you keep playing with people and spending all that energy into keeping them away instead of building healthy relationships.”
<Jo> “Excuse fucking you, I am nothing of the sort. You and your psychobabble, which I really haven’t missed, really only sees what you think you see. I’m not like that and my dad was not like what you think. I’m not going to abandon Grey if I’m off hunting, /he/ understands my life and doesn’t want to force me to change it like you used to. I have plenty of very healthy friendships, maybe just not the same sort /you/ think people should have.”
<Anna> “No you see, you dont get to decide for me what’s something I’m sensative about and what I’m allowed to get upset about when you decide to use it for your ammunition. You don’t get to decide what hurts me and what doesn’t. If you don’t care to respect my feelings then screw you and your feelings about certain subjects. Keep playing these games Jo and next time we’ll have a nice long chat about how it’s your mother’s fault for not leaving the hunting life and taking you away from it.”
<Jo> “You know what, fine. You tell me plain and clearly 'Jo, you’re upsetting me with what you’re saying’ next time and I will back the fuck off. Your verbal and facial cues are kind of all off from what I’m used to, Anna, so I’m sorry if my mucking around upset you - maybe not calling me a bitch, which really doesn’t seem to be getting your point across if that’s what you’re using FYI, and telling me to stop would work better for your female sensetivities. As for blaming my mother, I get the feeling you two would /really/ get along these days, given she tried her best to take me from it regardless of not moving.”
<Anna> “Always someone else’s issue and fault isn’t it. It’s my fault for not expressing the fact your hurting my feelings even though a blind person in a dark room could see that you are. It’s my fault for thinking that calling you a bitch wasn’t clear enough and that I have to resort to a long drawn out way of explaining to you. I’m sorry Jo that my physical expressions weren’t enough of a clue to you and your insensative 'playing’ to tell you to stop. Next time I’ll be sure to maybe cry with going all red and puffing up since obviously none of those things are enough for you.”
<Jo> “You know what? They’re not. Because before they didn’t mean you were hurt, just getting pissed off! So sorry that when you got your hard drive wiped and replaced with the catholic school girl persona the self righteous hard ass left with it and the cues got rewired. Calling me a bitch was generally common place for all variety of things, so no, not very clear. Just fucking spit it out in future or just say /stop/. Jesus fucking christ!”
<Anna> “That’s it, keep blaming me. Even when you’ve known now for how many conversations that I’m not that other Anna..it’s still my fault that you can’t rememeber it. How do you hunt if you can’t keep that simple bit of information straight? Isn’t that the sort of thing you would have to be able to spot? Personality shifts in people? It’s okay though, I accept the fact that it’s all my fault and never yours. I’m sorry for making things so hard on you Jo.”
<Jo> “Well it would make a fucking change for once - it being you to blame and not me, but then again you can’t remember /that/ either, so there goes that little victory over blameless Anna. There is a big difference between noticing things in strangers and noticing the same cues on someone you know but them being /completely inverted/ on themselves. And you say you’re not that other Anna but the more we talk, the more obvious it is it wasn’t just her Her Royal Fucking Grace-fulness side that was like this.”
<Anna> “Whatever..I’m so over taking the blame for this other person who I don’t know. I’m so sick of hearing what a horrible person I was but then hearing about other things and turning hte other cheek to them, all while I’m being punished for being something I’m not.”
<Jo> “You weren’t a horrible person, you were as horrible as I am. So that’s up to you to decide what that means.”
<Anna> “Well then according to Ruby I must have been a really horrible person.”
<Jo> “…Excuse me?”
<Anna> “I mean..I didn’t drug anyone did I? That was only you correct?”
<Jo> “…I didn’t want to..”
<Anna> “It doesn’t matter. That happened to the other Anna..not me.”
<Jo> “Right, because you’ll forgive what anyone else did to the other Anna. I totally believe that. …Though that..had been cleared up, before you start to think otherwise.”
<Anna> “No I don’t forgive, it just didn’t happen to me. It happened to her.”
<Jo> “…right.”
<Anna> “I don’t remember you. I don’t remember Gray. But whatever she felt for you, I feel and I trust that because I feel like I should be able to trust you with my life and that I should be your friend but then you do these things that make me want to scream.”
<Jo> “I think this is the point where I point out that’s kind of what my and..her friendship was like. We hunted together, trusted one another to watch our backs, and while some stuff happened and it was…really not good between the two of us for a while, I was going to be willing to put that stuff behind us after this whole..Crowley thing. Same as she was probably, hopefully. Things are different in war time, you know the saying. But yeah..made y-her want to scream a lot of the time too. It’s not really that strange.”
<Anna> *Anna shrugs and heads for her apartment.* “Just remember I’m not her. I don’t know our history. It’s weird to look at a total stranger and feel something close to love for that person and you dont know why.”
SECOND ONE: Sometime around when Anna and Grey were actively trying to hurt one another, and that Jo and Gray were weirdly not at each other’s throats??? Pre-binding for sure I believe
<Anna> wow..
<Anna> bitter much anna
<Jo> ??
<Anna> “funny..how I’m the high and mighty bitch but everything revolves around Jo’s perspective and how people get to live based on her ideals. Fuck that.”
<Jo> “I wasnt saying you have to live by it, but that’s how I view things and how I’m going to work in this world and if you have an issue with that- oh wait, you do. You gave me shit about it for months and months, so that’s really not a new conclusion you’re coming to there, Anna.”
<Anna> “if everything is so black and white then why isn’t she killing humans? Why isn’t Grey killing them? Humans kill for stupid reason, least most of the time when monsters kill they kill to survive. It’s not exactly fair they are punished for being created for population control of the human race.”
<Jo> “Humans are killed and punished for hurting other humans, and if I come across a case where its some fucked up asshole doing the dirty work? I will get that fucker put in jail. Now, if you want to start up some jailing system for monsters who go outside of their dietary needs and requirements, then go right ahead I’ll round you up some prisoners. But otherwise? This is my goddamn job and I don't care if its there nature - things go against them all the time - so unless theyre able to control their shit? I don’t give a fuck and I will be protecting other human beings.”
<Anna> “Then start with the Grey”
<Jo> “He hasn’t hurt anybody.”
<Anna> “That’s right..I’m not human..fuck you.”
<Jo> “You spend so long saying you'e an angel. Unless you’re going to throw that all out and stop with the high and mighty crap, then I’m not going to say you are. You can’t have best of both worlds, Anna, you’re not Hannah Montana”
<Anna> “Whatever. You’re idea of friends is as black and white as everything else. It’s clear that if people don’t fit in your ideals then they aren’t worth that, I don’t fit anywhere so it’s fine for your other friends to do whatever. I don’t care anymore, Grey has made threat after threat to me and is using my feelings for Gray to hurt me. It’s all fine to you and I’m done with him.”
<Jo> “And I have told him to keep his shit away from you, because I am sick and tired of the both of you hurting one another. If I didn’t think that you encourage or egg him on, I’d have only been yelling at him, Anna, but I saw the burns and I’m not down with either of my friends hurting one another. It’s over - neither of you is touching one another and you’re leaving eachother the fuck alone. And take your BS whining about not fitting anywhere the fuck away Anna, I’ve been your friend through this all - I put up with your shit with Gray, I dealt with your problems better than anyone and I’ve put my neck on the line for you so many times. And it is /not/ ‘fine’ as you say, I’ve told him and he knows if he does put another toe out of line where you’re concerned its the bad end of my gun for him - but the same fucking goes for you Anna. It’s not 'fine’ for him to push you about and its not 'fine’ for you to do the same to him. I’m done with it. The next time either of you causes problems I will be ending them.”
<Anna> “Right..because poor little Grey is incapable of being an asshole without the evil angel pushing him into it. I’m sorry, my memory is a little fuzzy but what did I do to him for him to tell me about everything in the hospital that utlimatly split us up? How did I provoke that attack that was nicely wrapped in false concern? Oh I burned his wrist with iron once because he kept telling me I was too weak to do anything. My bad. Next time I’ll leave him in an alley unconcious so that a demon can come carve him up.”
<Jo> “I think your memory would be a little fuzzy of then - and you really think I wasn’t going to mention what happened between you and Gray to you? This is me we’re talking about. And I’m not saying he’s not without fault - if I was I wouldn’t have almost had my house set on fire getting into a round with him about it. But fact of the matter is - I know the /both/ of you Anna, and I know the amount of stuff you’ll overlook about yourself to be right, and I know how little and how hard it is for him to lie to me about things. I’m not saying he’s not, just that you are a goddamn btich sometimes Anna, same as he is, and I am sick of the /both/ of you pulling iron or draining one another. All this feuding is doing is taking my attention /away/ from getting rid of Crowley”
<Anna> “And I’m sick of you always taking his side or anyone elses no matter what it is or over looking what they do till I fight back, really fight back and then suddenly I’m the villian. I was never first with you when we were together and I’ll never be first with you as friends because it’s easier to blame my bitchy personality than to possibly piss off your current fuck buddy.”
<Jo> “You know what, right now hanging out with /your/ ex fuck buddy is a lot nicer than being around /either/ of you! Do you /know/ what that says about you both?! And I’m not taking sides at all, Anna, not one part of this is me taking a side. You’re both to blame for whatever is happening, how about you open your eyes and realise that might be the case as well? You both are fucking up, you’re both being pains in the asses and you’re both being children about whatever the fuck this is about, and I am done with it. I dont /care/ who starts this mess, Anna, but I will be finishing it and it is over right /NOW/. I have said the same fucking thing to him so dont you even fucking start with me, and as for making you out like the villian - at least he has the decency to admit some of the crap he does to build on this bullshit fight, are you going to do the same? And do not even try to pull that first-second crap either.”
<Anna> “I’m fixing his mistakes! I’m fixing mine! I’m doing this to protect you, to protect Gray! Grey is going to use Crowley to go after Gray if he can’t. He’s hurting Gray to spite me because he knows I can’t do anything to stop it! He told me to drive Gray away to protect him and I did it and now he hates me and I want to fucking hurt him for that, for everything he’s done. For throwing Ellen to Crowley because you won’t! He fucking rubs it in my face that I’m alone..that it’s my fault..and that hurts..I did what you said! I went to Gray and I begged him, I pleaded to tell him I’m sorry and he hates me and Grey is boasting about it and I fucking hate him!”
<Jo> *Jo sighs, rubbing her temples* “Okay firstly, I don’t need protection, Im a big girl, I can handle myself. Secondly, I really don’t care about Gray - I understand it hurts you and he’s important to you but on that point I really cannot care. And on the Ellen part, I’ve discussed this at length and I’ve run over everything in my head and as much as Im angry and hurt about it still I’m not letting myself dwell on it. But I can /understand/ why you hate him, Anna, I truly can. Its the same reason I wanted to plunge a knife into Gray every time I damn well saw him for months. But I /didn’t/ because /you/ asked me not to. I’m asking you the same thing now, Anna..”
<Anna> “And I’ll tell you teh same thing you told me you, that you will if he gives you reason to. You’re a self rightous hypocrit Jo and that says a lot coming from me. You express to me every chance you get how you could care less about Gray and how it’s my problem that I have feelings for him. It’s the same for me. I could care less about Grey and he has done things to me and to the ones I care about. According to your own rules I should have every right to go after him. You justify Grey going after Gray for roughing you up but I’m expected to sit back and do nothing if it’s reversed. No, I’m not going to just sit back because you see Gray as the bad guy and that it’s okay.”
<Jo> “I am not the hypocrit here, Anna, that has always been you. I dont give a crap if you don’t like Grey, you never told me to shut up about disliking Gray - oh wait yes you did, but ya know what? You can /talk/ about hating him as much as you want, but I do care if either of you is hurting one another. And you’re expected to because Grey doesn’t just go after him because of that - /we/, you and I, have /no/ say in what those two do to one another, Anna. That’s not our place to step in at all and you need to realise that. You say all that BS about nature and stuff, and fighting one another is /their/ nature, so yes, you’re expected to sit back and do fucking nothing. Its not a case of good guy/bad guy in that Anna. Deal with it.”
<Anna> “So you mean to tell me that if Gray killed Grey you would just go 'oh well that was just their nature?’ It isn’t a case of two kids fighting, I’m scared for Gray because Grey wants to see him as broken as he is. Grey doesn’t care about anyone, Ellen is 'the woman tht shot at him’ that’s how he described her when I asked how could he do that to the person you probably care the most about in the world. The fact she means anything you means nothing to him.” *Anna runs her hand through her hair* “I’ve heard from you, Gray can’t be trusted. I’ve heard from Gray that you can’t be trusted because you named me over Ellen when you drugged me. I’m hearing again that Gray can’t be trusted from you now but the only person who has willingly and without any remorse what so ever that has done anything like that is Grey. I know you felt bad when you did the drugging and that you had no choice. I understood and I defended you over and over again and never was mad. I’m sorry we can’t agree about this but Grey isn’t going to stop trying to destroy Gray and I want to protect him. It’s my fault Grey can hurt him..”
<Jo> “Anna… Anna I don’t need us to agree, I don’t need you to swear to love and adore him or anything like that. All I want is for the two of you not to be killing one another every time my head is turned because that? That hurts me a lot, and I know you’ve got another interest in Gray in why you want to hurt Grey and I know you want to protect him - but all I ask at all is the same thing you did of me - that you won’t hurt him without his attacking /you/ first. The same way I wouldn’t go after Gray for your behlaf, even with his hurting Grey and other people. I went against what I’ve brought myself up to do for your feelings, hell I’m still not trying to actually kill him because I know he still means something to you. I just ask the same respect in return, Anna..”
<Anna> “Fine Jo. You win. I’ll sit back and just wait for Crowley to come and do whatever he wants to me. I’ll listen to him talk about whatever he’s doing to anyone else, including Gray. I’ll listen to every spiteful and hurtful word that comes out of Grey’s mouth about how I’ve fucked up again, which truth hurts and I’ll tell myself that I’m doing this all so you won’t be hurt because Grey is fine. He’s probably happy and making you happy because he’s happy. And I’ll know that your happy Gray is getting what you think he deserves and I’ll take comfort knowing that for you everything is good as long as Grey never makes the first move at me. Happy?”
<Jo> “You think I haven’t had Gray running his mouth at me, Anna? I know it sucks and it hurts and its hard, but you’re making it sound like I haven’t been in the exact same position that you are right now for months. Pull the stick out of your ass if you think that’s the case, because I put up with that crap rather than killing or hurting him for your sake, so you could extend me that courtesy.” *Jo hisses back quietly, looking serious yet not angry any more* “I have no care about what the hell you do to Crowley, I don’t even know why you mentioned that at all because whatever relivance you think that has there is /none/. And Gray and Grey are responsible for their own actions with one another, I have come to acknowledge that and it’s about time you did the same. I’ve got no problem with you dishing it out /as good as you get/ with Grey, but I fucking swear that whoever makes the first physical strike will get the business end of my gun at them. Cause whatever emotional problems you might cause one another, I don’t really care because I’ve been dealing with the same from Gray and from /you/ and from others so that really bloody doesn’t count in my book anymore.”
<Anna> *Anna’s quiet for a bit and then she shrugs* “I know Gray gave you shit and I know you gave it back, after all you keep saying your a big girl. I’m scared Jo. I’m scared that Grey is going to be right and Crowley is going to win and I keep telling him there’s a difference in what we do. I’m willing to give myself up to protect others, he just wants to protect his own self but it doesn’t mean I'm not scared of the idea that Grey is going to be whispering in Crowley’s ear if he thinks it will save him. But you can’t protect me from that and it’s not a physical move against me so I can’t fight back. But whatever I’m not human, I’m an unfeeling angel that’s a hypocrit, self rightous and a bitch. I won’t make a move against Grey and you might want to watch out for Ruby, I’ll try and call her off. Whatever it takes to beat Crowley..”
<Jo> “Anna.. …” *Jo sighs, giving her a look and a quick shake of the head* “If things aren’t able to get better, I know I’ll end up revising my opinion on this, and if someone is acting physically against you on his behalf? Then I count it as his own and its free game if you can find him after I’d be finished giving a piece of my mind. I’m not saying you don’t count, Anna, you do count - but there is a difference between someone being chomped on and tortured and killed by a monster because they can and someone having that happen because they’ve encouraged a reaction of some sort. And you’re taking several different points I’ve made and turned them into one when thats not the case at all.”
<Anna> “So everytime you mouthed off to anyone and then they lashed out and you get all uppity and going to kill them is different? Or you torturing Gray and then when he lashed back out? The only reason any of this is a problem is because you’ve taken sides on this but you don’t want to say it. And it’s fine. I’m wrong, I’ve been wrong and will continue to be wrong.”
<Jo> “Did I ever call for someone to back me up? Or did my going after him ever effect anyone else? No. What /the both/ of you doing trying to hurt one another does just that. You’re putting me between the both of you and honestly? I don’t want to be. If you’re hell bent on getting revenge and hating him and killing him then I don’t want any part of your life any more, and the exact same is true for him. If he wants to wreck your like and destroy you, then I don’t want to be around him from then on. I am not going to be in the middle of this, and hell I’m really glad I didn’t take Crowley up on his offer if this is what I would have to be dealing with with no exit plan.”
<Anna> *Anna shrugs* “It’s not like I wasn’t ever in the middle with you and Gray but that doesn’t count because Gray is the evil monster.”
<Jo> “By then? We weren’t gunning for eachother like this, Anna, get your contexts right.”
<Anna> “Go home Jo.”
<Jo> “Fuck it, fine.”
<Anna> “Goodluck. I’ll play nice.”
CHAT THREE: Anna yelling at Jo cause Grey had gone and beat up Gray and Gray misunderstood
<Anna> *Anna slams the door and walks over the windows ripping open teh curtains letting all the sunlight in*
<Jo> *Jo jerks her head up at the noise, groaning and covering her ears before she spots Anna swirling about letting the light come in before she scrunches her eyes up* “Ugh, seriously? Anna, can you close the curtains, please?”
<Anna> *Anna furious as she jerks the curtains hard enough to pull them down off the rods, filling the room with light and she turns throwing them on the bed* “What sort of fucking games are you playing Jo? Is this all some sort of twisted joke with you and Grey? You tell Gray to take me back while Grey goes and tells him that /I/ am sending him to attack Gray and try and kill him???”
<Jo> *Groaning again, Jo grabs for the curtains, trying to burrow underneath them* “That.. wasnt closing them.. And can you talk a little quieter, please please?” *Her voice is croaky as she tries to curl in on herself as the light still floods over the both of them*
<Anna> *Anna glares as she grabs the ends of teh covers, pulling them off the bed, leaving Jo laying there with nothing to hide on. She’s still yelling, getting louder as she goes.* “Fuck you Jo. I did what you god damned asked! I stopped anything I had going against Grey, I didn’t even go after him for convincing Gray that I set everything up against him and that I’m fucking him. You don’t want me hurti
<Anna> ng him well then get him under control because if he keeps this up I will end him. I don’t give a shit what you ask me to not do or do.”
<Jo> “Oh my god, do you have a microphone or something?” *Jo cringes, scrunching her eyes up together as she tries to cover them and her ears at the same time* “I’ve got no idea what you’re talkin’ ‘bout and its way too early to do this and I’m too hungover for the backwards word stuff, so can you please /please/ be quieter, pretty please? And explain what on earth you’re on 'bout..”
<Anna> *Anna glares and she walks over the to the bedroom door opening it.* “Grey attacked Gray.” *Anna slams the door as hard as she can opening it again. “Grey told Gray that I told him to kill Gray and that I’m fucking him.” *SLAM* “Gray says you came by to tell him to take me back.” *SLAM* “I am not attacking Grey over this even though I want to kill him.” *SLAM* “I’m telling you that if you want me leave him alone then /you/ need to keep him from doing shit like this to me and Gray.” *SLAM*
<Jo> *Jo cringes back against the headboard with every slam, abandoning keeping the light out in favor of covering her ears with the thin pillow she’d scrounged up seemingly last night as Anna slams the bedroom door, looking at her warily when she stops* “I didn’t know.. well I did know about some of that. If I say I will will you be quieter? Not like I want them fightin’ anyways. And I did, back after you told me first what happened. Very very angry monster, not fun.”
<Anna> “You knew? And did you do anything to stop him? Or is this that whole whatever is between them isn’t our business even though Grey is obviously doing everything he can to keep me from being able to get Gray to forgive me?” *Anna slams the door again*
<Jo> *The next slam makes her groan, falling forward on the bed and whining slightly before replying, voice muffled against the mattress* “After. I talked to Gray, he got mad, then talked to Crowley whose'a cockface.. then got back, Grey was beat up 'nd said he’d been fightin’ with you and Gray. Forced him and yelled a lot. Didn’t know he’d said that. Then talked to you. Already dealt with it..”
<Anna> “Right of course..because Grey does no fucking wrong. He dares tries anything like that or goes to Crowley after Gray, I will kill him Jo. If they are going to use us as exuses to fight then I am going to end it one way or the other. Do you understand me? This is your one warning. Next time I’m simply going to put an iron round in him and be done with it.” *Anna slams the door on her way out*
<Jo> *Jo flinches at the final slam, stretching herself out on the bed as the sound dies down and it’s obvious Anna isn’t coming back, covering her head with the pillow while muttering about 'the bitch’ not closting the curtains*
CHAT FOUR: Set not far after the above before Anna and Gray were back together though...
<Jo> worst friend award goes to…. lol
<Anna> lol
<Anna> Jo’s been winning it
<Anna> hands down
<Jo> Oh yes. Most definitely.
<Jo> Jo is saying some of what Anna’s been saying is unfounded, but some is true and that she’ll try to be more… clear minded the next time she speaks to either shadow and make certain things arent being interpreted wrong. Cause from her perspective she’s told Grey not to talk about Anna to Gray but seemingly no one understood Jo-speak
<Anna> lolol
<Anna> “no Jo’s teh only one fluent in bitch around here”
<Jo> “….Jesus Anna… that was an /apology/ and acknowledgement that, hey, I’m fucking up a bit. Did you want to reign in the nasty for a few seconds to realise that?”
<Anna> “fine fine..”
<Jo> “/Fine/. …I’ll go straighten this crap out with /Gray/ again, given as much as you might think I have Grey on some sort of… collar and leash… nobody does and your bastard of a monter at least knows me well enough to know I don’t exactly /lie/..”
<Anna> “It won’t do anygood to talk to Gray. Crowley sort of put a rule down that if I get caught talking to him then..well he fucks me infront of Gray and who knows what else. So even if he did suddenly decide to not hate me it doesn’t do any good.”
<Jo> “It’ll stop you feeling like shit and curb whatever damage Grey might have done for whatever future the two of you might have had… It’s not going to /hurt/ any to talk to him. And it’s not you talking, either.”
<Anna> “It won’t do any good.”
<Jo> “Yeah well, you can’t really stop me trying to fix it for you, Anna. You made an effort to make things better for me by saving my Mom - I’m going to try and salvage your relationship for if you can ever get it back. Sure its hardly equal but..”
<Anna> “He’s right and Grey’s right. I’m not good for him and I’m a weakness. At leastt while Crowley’s around.”
<Jo> “He didn’t seem particularly strong when I saw him… Or at least not himself. Likely to get himself killed if he’s that damn reckless in future..”
<Anna> *Anna shrugs* “I want him back so bad but I want him to come back*
<Jo> "I’ll see what I can do, Anna. I swear..”
<Anna> “thanks Jo.”
<Jo> “Don’t mention it. …Seriously, don’t.”
<Anna> *Anna can’t help but laugh*
<Jo> *Jo smiles back slightly* “I think most people would have Christo’d me by now, Anna…”
<Anna> “I don’t think any demon would be dumb enough to try and take over you.”
<Jo> “They’d just get stuck in the back of my head with some of my stupidest ideas if they did.”
<Anna> *Chuckling she nods* “Listening to you going on and on about hunting*
<Jo> "I don’t go on /that/ much about it…”*Jo flushes a bit wrinkling her nose*
<Anna> “Uh huh”
<Anna> “you know you talk about hunting in your sleep?”
<Jo> “I.. do not…?” *She pulls a face, looking completely uncertain* “Do I?”
<Anna> “Waking up to hear you talking about rawheads..isn’t exactly romantic.” *Anna grins at Jo*
<Jo> *Jo flushes further, rubbing the back of her neck awkwardly* “I’m sure it’s plenty romantic. …If youre into that kind of thing.”
<Anna> “Sure sure, everyone wants to hear the murmerings of sweet nothings that end in ‘pass the salt’”
<Jo> “Salt doesnt kill rawheads… And I’m not that bad, am I? Didn’t wake you up with a foreign language sounding like gibberish before. Unlike someone.”
<Anna> “I’ll take gibberish anyday over being hit out of no where while you sit up and scream for a shotgun before falling back. There’s a reason I said you aren’t allowed to take guns to bed anymore Jo.” *Anna’s grinning now*
<Jo> “Not just because it’d freak you out to find me using you as a resting place for most of my bits then?” *Jo smiles reluctantly*
<Anna> *Anna chuckles*
<Jo> “Yeah well, at least I kept my sex dreams quiet."
<Anna> "Right…I’ve never woke up with your hands squeezing down beteen my legs looking for soemthing that wasn’t there.”
<Jo> *Jo cringes at Anna’s comment before laughing* “…. It’s not my fault I move in my sleep while you’re just… a log.”
<Anna> “Well, at least when I moan Dean’s name in my sleep it’s because I’ve actually been with him.”
<Jo> *Jo’s mouth drops open, mouthing wordlessly in response*
<Anna> “And I mean..really..Sam too?” *Anna’s struggling to keep a straight face*
<Jo> *It takes a second before she practically squeaks in annoyance, reaching out to hit Anna’s shoulder* :“Oh my- you almot had me god damn.. One too far, Anna.”
<Anna> “Well it’s not my fault you want to know which brotehr is bigger” *Anna laughs at Jo punching her*
<Jo> *Jo shakes her head, running a hand through her hair* “I already have enough cases of 'compare the brothers’. I don’t think I’m going to add the Winchesters, though you could check out Sam and let me know..” *She teases back*
<Anna> *Anna sighs leaning back* “this sucks..everything*
<Jo> *Noticing the change, Jo nods, crossing her arms* "I’d be sure that it does. …What particularly today?”
<Anna> “just everything.”
<Jo> *Jo nods again, feeling slightly bad for not feeling as worn out or bad as Anna seems to* “That’s what it tends to do”
<Anna> *Anna turns to go, much more and she’s going to start whining about how much she misses Gray and she just doesn’t feel like giving Jo that satisfaction* “See ya around.”
<Jo> “I’ll let you know how it goes, Anna. Check in with you in a bit, okay?” *Jo frowns slightly, watching her go*
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Gotham 4x18 - Review
This might just be the last episode for a certain character...it is time to see.
Interim mayor? Haha good luck with that, buddy. I have a feeling you will either die or resign by the time this season ends.
Who is the commissioner these days?
At least half of the people at this meeting are going to die this episode.
This woman really needs to chill--never mind. Freeze has it covered.
His voice sounds so much like a voice changer. Mr. Freeze could really say some fun deep voiced quotes with that voice. I actually believe it’s required in order to be accepted into the voice changer club.
I want to know why they chose Mr. Freeze and Mad Hatter for this job. It may not require any specific skills, really. Do they just flip a coin to decide who will go kidnap or murder someone?
Look at this guy. Trying to make deals with anyone who will listen. Kind of reminds me of season 1 Oswald a bit. You know, trying to do whatever it takes to survive.
You are really asking the Mad Hatter to save you from lunatics? Do you not know him at all?
“Lunatics is a bit harsh. I prefer visionary” Well, that is typical. Is Jervis Jerome’s number 1 fan now? He is going to be so crushed when the visionary is no more. If it is anything like how he reacted to his sister, there might be more trouble coming.
“I am with Mr. Valeska one hundred percent” Oswald, I hate to break it to you but...you are a terrible liar. That was unconvincing and you should know this.
Oswald is pretending to smile but deep down he is so ready to be done with all this XD
Hey, I know purple is Oswald’s color but that shade of blue tie? It really does bring out his eyes.
Geez this toxin is way crazier than I expected it would be in this show. I really want to know why Jerome came up with the idea just now. Also, how did he explain it to Mr. Freeze and Scarecrow as they were helping to create it? Did he just say, “Hey yeah, I want them to go bonkers. Laugh maniacally, go insane, possibly start bleeding and change color from laughing so much so they look like sadistic clowns.”
I am just waiting for the moment that Oswald leaps out of the truck and just runs as fast as possible.
You thought Alfred would forget your birthday? I know life has been crazy but he has practically raised you.
Ooh did you buy him a giant red wagon?
Awe his baby bat mobile! Awesome! The fact that he didn’t even notice it in the garage until he pressed the button...
I just realized...he has so much money...how come he hasn’t bought like twenty cars at this point? Although, to be fair, this one is so much cooler and is bullet proof.
Harvey and his liquor.
I want to know how Oswald knows Jim’s cell phone number. Has he always had it saved in all his phones? Surely it isn’t public knowledge, unless he researched it.
“Well, this is a first” Oh please, like you two have never met in secret before ;)
This reminds of the Pilot, where Oswald was snitching on Fish...yeah, nothing can possibly go wrong here.
“Why did you come here if you aren’t going to help me?!” Jim, I think you need a vacation, you seem tense. Also, at least he is giving you a heads up on the toxin that may destroy Gotham and turn everyone insane. Think positively :)
Oswald being scared of Jerome? I am honestly not surprised.
“Or maybe you just don’t like the competition” ...maybe so but does it matter? You got to take whatever help you can get, can’t be choosy on the motives there.
“And I am an honest criminal, Jim” Oswald seems so offended. Like, how dare you excuse him of serving his own interests!
Why did Oswald sneak off? Didn’t Harvey hear Jim say “Oswald” when he answered his cell phone so he knows who Jim is meeting with? Jim is not discreet.
Jerome breaking out a killer dance entrance.
It is scenes like these that make me wish Jerome met Ed. You know that they would totally fight over who has the best extra entrances.
People losing heads? That’s a bit graphic for all of Gotham to witness...well, I mean, as of now. I am sure it is going to be even more graphic as years go by.
Side note: I feel like the pacing of this episode is far better than last week. Less rushed, less story lines that need to develop.
I know the League has major skills so this probably wouldn’t happen but I can just imagine what would happen if someone had terrible aim, accidentally harming or killing Babs. She’d probably still live or be resurrected somehow but I can just picture the shocked responses and the person going “Whoops...I might need more practice...”
Awe come on, let Tabby have her murderous fun!
Yeah, Tabs isn’t having any of this league crap.
Ooh wicked ice device! I want to see more of these cool gadgets that Victor has been saving.
Wait, I know that tune...
Oh my god they are doing 60s Batman theme! This is brilliant!
Now say “Batman!” or something similar.
*stops music before getting to the “batman” parts :( I guess close enough...the batman part will come later ;)
Where was Bridgit even shooting the fire for people to duck?
Of course he wants Jeremiah and Bruce...
Wait, so Jim didn’t seem totally against the idea when it was Jeremiah but when you mention Bruce Wayne? Absolutely not!
Jim, now is not the time to be negotiating with him. He is not going to bite.
A bundt cake. Not really my taste. A nothing bundt cake is better.
Happy Birthday, Bruce! Wait until you see the presents waiting for you today...
Wow, Selina. Way to take away all his wishes by blowing out the candles. Unless, of course, Selina was his wish.
lol where did she even come popping from anyway? Such a kitten, pouncing when you least expect her.
Aww as much as I liked them having separate story lines from each other (just because I was curious to see where their stories would go), I did miss them sharing scenes. Teen batcat is cute.
Luuuccccius! (Yes, I will say this every time I see him in an episode)
Where were you Foxy? Vacationing? Taking weeks of spa days? Practicing better defense skills? Hanging with your secret lover? What?
Yeah, Jerome doesn’t care if he has to blow up any heads. It does not faze him whatsoever.
I love how much Alfred and Selina care about the well being of Bruce...yet Bruce is going to do it all anyway.
“I’m positive.” Yeah, I believe in you Foxy! “99% positive” That 1% is going to get you, isn’t it?
Why didn’t the league show Babs this room sooner?
Wait, the painting has... why do I feel like this is a set up or something? This seems so fishy.
You know, if Babs was still working her art gallery, this would be the painting on full display.
Oh gosh...Babs is about to fall deep into this, isn’t she?
Ooh Jeremiah and Bruce in the same scene! ..And now shaking hands and having a conversation!
This is going to hurt when Jeremiah most likely becomes the Joker. Is Bruce going to blame himself for this too?
Wow, that is a very nice speech Bruce. You make a good motivational speaker.
I bet this guy is regretting being interim mayor. If you make it through this, you may want to take a very long vacation and just forget to ever come back.
So, what did Jerome do while he was waiting this whole time? Dance around?
Wait, wha-Oh, of course Jerome would foresee this. Always be prepared for anything. Impressive.
Hey, where is Butch/Grundy while all of this is going on? He just joined the group last episode. Why isn’t he involved and by Oswald’s side?
Oswald looking at this like “Maybe I can build one shaped like a penguin later in life...”
Hmm...why is Jervis using the watch now? He didn’t need the watch before, did he?
Oz, maybe it wasn’t such a good idea to criticize Jerome’s plans in front of his most loyal followers... Just a thought.
“A bird’s eye view” ha. ha.
Jealousy? Okay, I know that Babs was pretty mean to Tabby in season 3 but this just seems like her mind is getting twisted or something... She isn’t thinking clearly.
Babs isn’t letting this all go to her head or anything.
Tabby being so mistreated. She just wants to run a club with people she cares about. At least she can turn to Selina for help.
The two wild jokers in a deck sitting side by side.
Jeremiah rolling his eyes at Jerome is such a mood. I get that way when I have to hear people ramble about stuff I have heard many times too.
“We are practically identical” Can’t imagine why...
Well, I give you points for effort, Jeremiah. You at least tried.
Lucius is so done with this crap.
Lol Jerome repeatedly trying to hit the trigger. Him and Ed should rant about how frustrating that is.
Harvey with his whole “I’ll shoot it down. Oh right” lol at least he didn’t impulsively do it first.
Whose idea was it to leave only two people on there? Did they not think Oswald would get loose and stop it?
Oswald freaking out. Come on, you can think of a plan! Oswald’s thoughts: This is why penguins don’t fly!
Oswald calling Jim for help first because he knows Jim will help. I wonder if he tried calling others but they just didn’t answer.
“I don’t even drive my own car!” LOL I’m dying. He is so not for this plan.
Well, he can actually drive, he just probably doesn’t do it very often or likes to.
“If you don’t, thousands will die...maybe worse.” “What’s worse than that?” Pfft. Yeah, death doesn’t matter but not being able to rule? Far worse. Man, he REALLY doesn’t want to steer.
It seems to me that Jerome kind of knew he was going to end up dead all along, didn’t he?
Oswald’s relief when he starts steering...he’s like “I’m doing it! I’m actually doing it! Oh my god...”
You just know that Oswald is going to want to have a blimp of his own later in life. Well, I can now check that off the wish list. Now, can we have Oswald in a scene with some live penguins? Thanks.
Where is Bruce and Jeremiah when all this is going on? Kind of a shame that they aren’t there to probably see Jerome in his final moments.
Of course Jim would still try to save him but Jerome is like “Nah”. Would he really rather risk his life for all this?
Laughing to his death. Pretty appropriate.
This is sad. I’m going to miss Jerome.
I believe I can flyyy. Okay, sorry. Now is not the time. The slow motion is getting to me.
Now, I am 99.9% sure that he looks dead. At least he died with a smile on his face? ...again...
I know it is all about plot armor but they should really define deaths better on the show. Selina falls out a window and lives. Sofia and Butch get shot in the head, live. Was Jerome’s body just too feeble? Was it because he was shot a few times AND fell off a building onto a car?
Bruce trying to make things right. Starting somewhat of a friendship...that is doomed to be heartbreak.
Oh my god he is still up there. How long has Oswald been up there?
Who knew Oswald would be Gotham’s hero? Go figure.
“Jiiiiiiiiiiiiim” That shot, that scream. I swear it is like the end of a cartoon.
Poor Oswald. I feel bad but it is also hilarious.
If this is the end of the episode or if he is still up there at the start of the next episode, I will laugh so hard.
I just think of the standby pilot like customer service. Standby: Yes, can I help you? Oswald: I am stuck on a blimp, I want off now! Standby: Is it the blimp or is it the zeppelin? People often mistake the two. Oswald: Wha-does it MATTER?! Standby: Please hold *music starts playing* Oswald: *screams in rage and frustration*
Yeah, as good as Tabby is...it is difficult for her to fight against a few members of the League.
Aha! Ra’s is about to come back.
Wait, where are they taking Tabitha?
Jeremiah...uh oh...what’s about to happen? Surely, we aren’t just going to watch him drink tea.
A gift. Don’t open it. Don’t open it. Don’t open it.
You are supposed to be smarter than this. You JUST got back from dealing with Jerome. Do. not. open.
A jack in the box? You know that isn’t from Wayne enterprises. Throw it now! It’ll probably spray you with toxin!
A special made toxin for him? Oh, so it isn’t exactly the same as the other...that’s good to know. So, that is how it will affect him differently!
Oh god... this is about to be even more insane!
What a birthday present for Bruce...the birth of the Joker.
I’m interested in seeing how different Jeremiah’s Joker will be to Jerome.
Kind of wish the season had one extra episode, so that we could have seen Jeremiah and Bruce be friends or partners for an episode before being sprayed. Maybe the package comes in the mail the next day, instead of waiting for him, and it doesn’t seem as dumb for him to open it.
Over all: Solid episode. Jeremiah becoming the Joker is happening a bit fast but not enough for me to be too upset. I have to wait to see how it all plays out before deciding if his joker and evolution is a good one. RIP Jerome, you will be missed. The rest of the episode was nice. It always does well when there are only a couple of major story lines going with all the characters, rather than there being 4 or 5 separate ones. Babs sees a painting of herself and Ra’s from supposedly centuries ago, she believes she has a major purpose but Tabby doubts it, resulting in Tabby being kicked out/beat up by the League. Tabby encounters men who say Ra’s is the true Demon’s Head and isn’t really gone, they take Tabby. Bruce meets Jeremiah, offers him work with Wayne Enterprises. He briefly celebrates his birthday with Selina and Alfred. Lucius gets around 7 lines (not that I counted), where he helps in not getting heads blown to bits. Oswald tries to stop Jerome’s plan, ends up steering the toxin away from the city. Jerome falls to his death, but not before giving Jeremiah his own special toxin to drive him mad. The rest of the Legion of Horribles are in unknown places, I guess.
Previous review: 4x17 Next: 4x19
#gotham#jeremiah valeska#oswald cobblepot#jerome valeska#gotham 4x18#optimisticcritque gotham review#that's entertainment
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the beautiful, luminous, inimitable @violaeade tagged me for 50 book questions!
1. What is your favourite book and/or book series of all time?
oh maybe everything leads to you by nina lacour! it just really gets to me
2. What is the longest book you have ever read? How many pages?
uhh idk what’s the longest harry potter book bc probably that? i dont... read books that long usually
3. What is the oldest book you have ever read? (Based on its written date)
ummm i think and then there were none by agatha christie? i dont keep track by time tbh but i dont read that many old books bc i tend to have trouble reading them
4. What is a book series that everyone else loves but you do not?
the raven cycle lol
5. What book or book series would you like to see turned into a film/ TV series?
oh god most of them? 99% of the lesbian ones for sure. percy jackson would make an excellent animated movie series imo. i’m clearly biased but tasu/teota would be great on screen.
6. What is your favourite stand-alone book?
most of the gay ones i read are standalones and theres so many good ones... i already said everything leads to you but we are okay and you know me well are also extremely good! of fire and stars killed me as well.
7. What is a book that you feel glad for not reading?
god. straight ones? ones that i heard are racist or homo/lesbo/bi/transphobic, but in general i’m picky abt what i read bc i don’t read that many books.
8. What is a book that you feel guilty for not reading?
i was gonna say i don’t feel guilty about not reading books i don’t like/don’t want to but that’s a lie- babe if ur reading this i am SO sorry i never finished the last chaos walking book
9. What is a book you have read that is set in your country of birth?
most of them lol that’s what i get for living in america. i read we are okay pretty recently which takes place in new york, the state i was born in, so that’s a bit more specific.
10. What is a book that you own more than one copy of?
i have 2 copies of redwall for no reason other than my high school library was selling one for a dollar so i bought it even tho i had it already. i have a couple copies of some of the a wrinkle in time books bc i got some of them as gifts a bunch.
11. What horror book made you really scared?
omg i don’t read horror but that one skulduggery pleasant short story about bubba moon or whatever freaked me the fuck out tbh
12. What book do you passionately hate?
um i haven’t read enough terrible books to say i hate them that passionately? but i rly kinda hated trc. oh yeah i read the first c*aptive pr*nce book in hs on the recommendation of a friend and it just made me so uncomfortable the entire time i really. did not have a good time with that one and i wish i hadn’t read it
13. What is the biggest book series you have read? How many books are in it?
skulduggery pleasant! theres 9 books plus short stories i still can’t believe i read all those
14. What book gives you happy memories?
aw sabrina answered this with the flywheel by erin gough and i have to say the same bc she sent it to me for my birthday, full of annotations of thoughts and jokes she made herself AND got it signed by the author, and i’ve uhhhh never felt so loved in my life
15. What book made you cry?
oh the book thief for sure. everything leads to you made me cry a bunch while rereading it even tho its not sad? thos were love tears. that happens a lot actually.
16. What book made you laugh?
skulduggery pleasant! there’s so many good lines in that one. my dad used to always hand me a book he’d just read and tell me to read a certain chapter he found hilarious but i never read the whole book but he always found hilarious memoirs too.
17. What is your favourite book that contains an LGBTQ+ character?
lmaoo like all the books i read are gay? the abyss surrounds us/the edge of the abyss have really unique lesbian characters because they’re so angry and vindictive and dumb and interesting and DRAMATIC so that one gets a shout out
18. Have you read a book with a male protagonist? What is it?
what the fuck is that (ok i legit just finished reading when the moon was ours by anna marie mclemore tho bc my gf rec’d it and it was p good)
19. Have you read a book set on another planet? What is it?
does fantasy count? bc then of fire and stars. uhh chaos walking is on a new planet. a wrinkle in time involves other planets too! wow i’m crushing this one
20. Have you ever been glad to not finish a series? Which?
the raven cycle lol i thought it was a finished trilogy when i started the first book so i just never read the last one and i am so relieved
21. Have you ever read a book series because you were pressured?
not really? i don’t really feel pressure, i value recommendations from my girlfriend friends way more than things that are trending or popular. i’ve read a couple that i blindly picked from internet lists that i didn’t care for tho but that was really a while ago
22. What famous author have you not read any books by?
pretty much any author we were supposed to read in high school. any classic or even modern famous author i probably haven’t read. i’ve read like a dozen books ever
23. Who is your favourite author of all time?
tbh nina lacour is really up there. when i was really young it was definitely gail carson levine. i rly loved anne ursu’s books as well.
24. How many bookshelves do you own?
only one! and a bunch of boxes that i never unpacked after we moved like 3 years ago. my mom wants to put a big wall bookshelf in our house somewhere bc this one didn’t come with any like our last house did but who knows if that’ll happen.
25. How many books do you own?
are u trying to make me count?
26. What is your favourite non-fiction book?
ohhh i don’t read much of this genre. i always avoided it as a kid and i’ve been meaning to get into it more but i haven’t yet. i’m really looking forward to reading a sally ride biography tho
27. What is your favourite children’s/middle-grade book?
the chronus chronicles by anne ursu were my JAM in elementary/middle school omg. i also really loved the may bird series which i didn’t read until high school.
28. What is your next book on your TBR?
i’m about to start georgia peaches and other forbidden fruit finally! my gf bought me 10 things i can see from here and i love her so whenever that arrive i’m probably gonna devour that. i want to reread a wrinkle in time soon since the trailer comes out this weekend! plus a million others
29. What book are you currently reading?
i literally just finished when the moon was ours which felt like it took me ten years to read and i haven’t started another yet but it’ll be georgia peaches bc thats the other one i got from the library and i already had to renew them haha
30. What book are you planning on buying next?
um this old west lesbian novel called backwards to oregon! i’ve been craving westerns lately but as always i’m also craving gay content
31. What was the cheapest book you bought?
i used to buy a ton of old paperbacks, usually goofy looking sf or fantasy novels from library sales for dollars or quarters so definitely those.
32. What was the most expensive book you bought?
i can tell u the most expensive book i got for free was a beautiful bound collection of hg wells stories that i just got from some book at bea before it was bookcon lol
ones i actually paid for... do art books count??
33. What is a book you read after seeing the movie/ TV series?
nah i usually have no intention of reading the book if i watched the show/movie first
34. What is the newest book you have bought?
akdjghksjgh a lesbian western novella called from the boots up for a few bucks on kindle
35. What three books are you most looking forward to reading this year?
the rest of the gay books i’ve bought but haven’t read yet! not your sidekick and labyrinth lost, i’m VERY excited to reread a wrinkle in time and i also really want to read stone butch blues
36. What is a book you love that has a terrible trope? (Love triangle, etc)
crush by sr silcox has the cutest lesbian teen summer romance AND one them is secretly a rock star avoiding her fame bc her controlling dad was turning into HIS dream instead of HERS akdjghksdjgh its fantastic i adored it
37. Have you read a book in a different language? What was it?
oh no i’m dumb as hell
38. What is a book you’ve read that is set in a time period before you were born?
for some reason dave at night by gail carson levine popped into my head first? that was my favorite as a kid and i reread it all the time and i think it took place in the 20s or 30s with all that good good jazz shit
39. What book offended you?
hm not sure how to answer this one
40. What is the weirdest book you have read?
idk the may bird series was pretty weird. gone by michael grant? i read the first for a high school book club and i just could not get into it or understand it even a little
41. What is your favourite duology?
ditty the abyss surrounds us & the edge of the abyss !!
42. What is your favourite trilogy?
wow i really haven’t read that many trilogies esp ones i loved. i guess may bird or the chronus chronicles then!
43. What book did you buy because of its cover?
the maze runner! also bc i heard it was good but i hated that book so
44. What is a book that you love, but has a terrible cover?
honestly i can’t think of one rn
45. Do you own a poetry anthology? What is your favourite poem from it?
nope! i also hated poetry as a kid and have only tried to get into it recently. i have a book of sappho’s fragments and i want to get tracy k smith from the library but thats about it
46. Do you own any colouring books based off other books?
nope
47. Do you own any historical fiction?
thats possible
48. What book made you angry?
the maze runner really did?? for some reason and i don’t get mad that much but it just really had me steamin. sabrina also said grasshopper jungle and i’m inclined to say same lmao. i haven’t read it but seeing all the lesbophobia in not otherwise specified recently made me really mad and also upset
49. What book has inspired you?
aw inspired is a serious word to throw around. the miseducation of cameron post, idk if it “inspired” me but it was my first lesbian novel and that really did a lot for me.
50. What book got you into reading?
i think it was a wrinkle in time! or maybe roald dahl books before that, but a wrinkle in time was definitely up there, and maybe the shadow thieves by anne ursu
i’m tagging @reading-takes-you-places and @mywomensworld and anyone who wants to! i don’t talk to many people here but if you follow me and want to, go for it!
#boy this was so many questions and i really don't......read..............#but ily babe ty for tagging me <3#long post
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Navigating Body Image While Genderqueer / Genderfluid / Non-Binary - WisCon 41 panel write-up
These get long to click the clicky to read.
Disclaimers:
I hand write these notes and am prone to missing things, skipping things, writing things down wrong, misreading my own handwriting, and making other mistakes. So this is by no means a full transcript.
Corrections, additions, and clarifications are most welcome. I’ve done my best to get people’s pronouns and other identifiers correct, but please do let me know if I’ve messed any up. Corrections and such can be made publicly or privately on any of the sites I’m sharing these write-ups on(tumblr and dreamwidth for full writings, facebook and twitter for links), and I will correct ASAP.
My policy is to identify panelists by the names written in the programming book since that’s what they’ve chosen to be publicly known as. If you’re one of the panelists and would prefer something else - let me know and I’ll change it right away.
For audience comments, I will only say general “audience member” kind of identifier unless the individual requests to be named.
Any personal notes or comments I make will be added in like this [I disagree because blah] - showing this was not part of the panel vs. something like “and then I spoke up and said blah” to show I actually added to the panel at the time.
Navigating Body Image While Genderqueer / Genderfluid / Non-Binary
Moderator: Theo Nicole Lorenz. Panelists: Lee Bauersouth, Sam Einhorn, Jack Evans, Kris Mayer, Mo Ranyart
#NavigateGNCBodyImage for the livetweets and such
[I feel like I’ve both moderated and been on a version of this panel in past years, so it was neat to just be in the audience this time. Also - while looking around me at the panelists and my fellow audience members while waiting for the panel to start, my internal monologue was just a bouncy repetition of the word “Gender! Gender! Gender!” because IDK folks, I just adore gender and it’s many permutations and discussions of it all.]
Theo began the panel by acknowledging that the panelists were mostly white AFAB folk and that they wanted to invite other perspectives to join them. They also said everyone uses their own language for their own bodies and identities and if people use any words that make you feel uncomfortable, you should do what you need to take care of yourselves and no one will judge you for leaving if you need to.
Jack, referencing pre-panel joking around, introduced themselves by saying “I am goat, and I’m a goat.” Then seriously added that they are a non-binary trans man - but kinda wooshy-washy about it. They added that, as Theo’s assistant, the two talk about gender a lot.
Sam began their intro with “I am Sam and I am *not* a goat”, and then added that they are genderqueer or maybe non-binary - they have trouble figuring it out. But mostly ID as a genderqueer butch person depending somewhat on the day.
Sam also talked about how they discovered all of this gender stuff around the time as discovering fat acceptance movement and wanted to talk about how those two things informed each other.
Lee’s introduction began with “I’m questioning if I’m a goat or not...” - then worried some about if they’d offended anyone by calling themselves a goat and added “This is SO Sunday.” Lee introduced themselves as actually being agender, which they consider to be under the umbrella of genderqueer.
Lee added that genderqueer and gender dysphoria are not a circle but a venn diagram and said “I’m in that sliver.”
Mo left off the goat-joke intro and introduced themselves as being a femme non-binary trans dude - sort of. They also talked about fat activism in addition to having a history with an eating disorder. They said that they do have trans-related body dysphoria.
Kris introduced themselves as non-binary and butch - mainly due to how they are read by society. They added that internally, they feel like there are rules to butchness and they don’t follow them, so they don’t necessarily identify as butch. They also talked about how we often worry about doing gender right - even as we tell others and ourselves that there is no right or wrong to how to do gender.
Lee added that they forgot in their intro to say that they are also coming at this topic from the perspective of a professional therapist.
Theo began their introduction with “I describe my identity as .... oh gosh... non-binary or agender or both?” They also said that they are stepping their toe tentatively into the trans pool and it kind of fits for them.
Theo, author/artist of the coloring book Fat Ladies in Spaaaaace, created it while still thinking they were a cis woman. After discovering genderqueerness, they realized this thing they created for body positivity no longer fit for their own body. This was a loss to Theo.
Theo then posed the question to the panelists - how has your relationship with body acceptance changed since realizing you’re not cis, and what do you need out of body acceptance movements now?
Jack acknowledged how Theo’s example was a loss, but for Jack there was something they gained when realizing they weren’t cis. It was so freeing because they suddenly didn’t have to fit a model of what a man or woman should be. But Then they started the transitioning process and felt they had to be more serious and conform again, which was hard.
Sam said they really didn’t know about trans, genderqueer, etc. for a long time. They discovered gender discourse and fat positivity around the same time. They were finding it was okay to be butch but not fat on the one hand, on the other in the fat pos. movement there were all of these expectations around femininity. So these two parts of Sam’s identity were constantly criss-crossing.
Lee talked about coming from the angle of chronic health conditions and the disability acceptance movements. They were being told to celebrate being a woman while having 9 week painful periods. They were being told to nourish their body while thinking - no, my body’s an asshole. They had an ablation, which they described as “I had my uterus electrocuted to send a message to my other organs”.
Lee discussed the frustrations of feeling weaker and being treated as a delicate flower and how that made them want to find some plaid real quick. [I found myself nodding vehemently to this - nothing makes me wanna butch up more than getting sympathy for my chronic health issues]
Mo talked about having issues with “body positivity” - it felt like this was just a way to say it’s not okay to be fat but let’s celebrate other bodies! They talked about how “love your body” can feel like a kick in the teeth and loving one’s body can be really hard for some people. What about a truce instead? Can I have a friendly acquaintance with my body?
Mo also asked - can you be not-a-woman and be part of the fat acceptance movement? They had difficulty finding space for non-binary bodies in body acceptance. Instead of being part of the larger group, they’ve found smaller groups of people just huddling together.
It can be hard to get all intersections covered so these movements need to be much larger and much more inclusive.
Kris posed the question of - what if there are parts of my body I don’t want to make peace with? They talked about feeling violent towards certain body parts. When complaining about menstruation, they were told that it was a spectral of the goddess. They replied - no deity owns a part of my body.
Kris also talked about having dysphoria around their breasts. Am I allowed to say I don’t want to be positive about this?
Theo discussed how they were able to get top surgery and how that decreased their feelings of violence with their body. Post-surgery, Theo thought - “I hope they’re happy wherever they are now - maybe on a farm upstate somewhere - frolicking with all of the other breasts.” [I about bust a gut laughing - and had to share this with my friend who is about to have a double mastectomy because we’ve been making all sorts of jokes about her breasts post-surgery. Now we get to imagine them out there in a field romping around with other boobs - thanks Theo!! lol]
Theo posed the next question for the panelists - what do we need from these movements?
Lee answered with acceptance of the fact that chronic pain is not something they’re going to love. They compared their pain to a large dog shredding the sofa continuously and saying - “look, I’m trying to take care of you but you’re not making it easy! But if I stop taking care of you - you’ll crap on the bed.” [yes yes yes]
Jack answered - inclusion of all intersections. They talked about how they got into power lifting in order to build up masculine strength but then realized that health issues meant some days they couldn’t even lift a pencil. They don’t see many examples of trans guys like themselves.
Sam answered with more acceptance of different kinds of bodies - not just size related but gender, and other differences. The importance of not only letting these other kinds of bodies be there in the movements, but of actually making space for and including/welcoming them as well.
Mo talked about the problems with body acceptance focusing on the line of thinking like “you, too, can be attractive!” That’s good, but it’s not the whole thing. You should not have to love or accept parts of your body that are causing you actual harm or trauma, pain, dysphoria, etc.
Mo also talked about things like “info for all the ladies out there” and being - what about me? Can that be for me too? Mo just wants more general awareness that not all people are like you - is that a big ask? It feels like it some days.
Kris brought up the decentering of attractiveness in these movements. Prioritizing beauty when not all of us are going to or even want to fit societal beauty norms. [wow this sent a lightbulb off in my head so big! need to think/write more about this myself]
Theo talked about more acceptance of bodies in liminal spaces. Bodies in transition are often treated like an unbaked cookie - someone adds in that those can be tasty so the panel finally settled on uncooked waffles as the analogy. So this uncooked waffle is treated like - well, you have potential to be something cool. What if I already feel done though? What if I’ve transitioned as much as I plan to? What if I don’t want to be fully cooked?
Lee gave an example of a friend with many complicated health issues who was able to get phalloplasty but can’t take T - so there are some parts of the transition process they could and couldn’t do.
Jack added that in that example, the person had the phalloplasty without having a vaginectomy - they wanted to add that so that folks would know you could do it that way.
Mo talked about ways in which non-binary becomes it’s own box to fill in next to Male or Female instead of being an opt-out altogether. Often the idea of non-binary that people carry with them is an androgynous thin person in men’s clothing that’s tailored for people with breasts. And that’s great that those kind of clothes are being made and people who fit that archetype can find acceptance - but that’s not all that being non-binary is or all that non-binary clothing can be.
Kris talked about how they identified as genderqueer for a decade but then switched to non-binary because it felt like a shrug when it comes to gender. For years, Kris chased masculinity as the only model they knew. Now, they are having fun with nail polish and earrings. They added they get most of their accessories from Claire’s because inside they feel like their gender is a 13 year old girl. (Several panelists agreed with this notion for themselves)
Kris added that since exploring more of this feminine side, they find themselves worrying about outside perception of their gender - am I still non-binary enough? Trans enough?
Theo also related to the idea of chasing masculinity. They said they’re much happier since feeling more comfortable playing with femininity.
Jack brought up sex positivity for a variety of different bodies - especially intersex bodies and for trans people who haven’t had “The Surgery.”
Theo posed the question of where they’ve found what they needed as far as body acceptance and all of the panelists said at WisCon [me toooooo :)]
Theo also talked about finding a photo, on a website where there were hundreds of photos of trans bodies. This one photo looked like Theo’s body and the person in the photo looked so happy and free with their body and it really helped Theo to feel more acceptance and hope for themselves.
Sam discussed how getting positive reinforcement on twitter about both their gender exploration and their fatness has helped. This was Sam’s first WisCon and seeing so many people who look like them was also very powerful. Most of their friends don’t share all of their intersections.
Jack reiterated what Sam said and added that they need WisCon for their soul - just to be with people like themselves. Jack then talked about how they didn’t use makeup until they came out as trans - it became more of a choice to them then. They started sharing selfies and got positive feedback and that helped too.
Mo also talked about how taking selfies has helped them. In particular, it’s helped them to gain a greater sense of themselves. Between the gender dysphoria and eating disorder, Mo spent a lot of time not knowing how their own body looked. The first time Mo shared a selfie online, they almost threw up. Then they got home and had 20 positive comments. So they kept trying to do it and have recently realized that they no longer feel sick when doing so.
Mo also added that having good sexual experiences with people who are not assholes has helped. [I had some *feels* here]
Kris discussed the difficulty they’ve had in finding a network of friends, but they rely on support from friends online. They also feel lucky to have genuine family support.
Lee said - I guess I lied earlier. (Theo asked - so you ARE a goat?) Lee clarified that when they said earlier that they didn’t have any dysphoria, they’ve realized that they do have some around their breasts.
[At this point, I became triggered by something said and stopped taking notes. This was through no fault of any of the panelists btw - they were only speaking from their own experiences but it was upsetting to me based on stuff going on in my own life so I closed my notebook and just listened to the rest of the panel, which was still really great and I’m sorry I didn’t get it all down. However, do check the hashtag for the panel for much more that I didn’t get! #NavigateGNCBodyImage]
#navigategncbodyimage#wiscon#wiscon 41#wiscon41#wc41#body image#genderqueer#genderfluid#non-binary#gender
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Okay, so conversely - I'm gay, and because of the general groups of people I've been out to, I've either been told I don't act feminine/"queer" enough, or treated as an embarrassing failure when I tried. Independently, I've still been called a fag, as a slur. So how am I -not- supposed to look askance at a term like "girlfag," when you make it clear that there's only a very limited set of gay guys you identify with, and you disparage all the others?
I understand that this is controversial because of the language and meaning the same way that “male lesbian” has been for a long time.
But I think you may have misinterpreted something because I do not understand where this assumption comes from. There seems to be some connection you have made which is false. There is not a very limited set of gay guys I identify with (and I do not disparage all the others, why would that mean that?).
I mean to be honest it’s pretty confusing for myself, I also have a major dissociation between my “woman” self and myself, New, whoever this is, so it gets confusing and difficult for me to express in ways that won’t be misread (and offend someone, because my experience is weird but I know after all these years that I am not alone in this feeling).
I have never been able to feel attractive as a woman, and when I finally got brave enough to start binding, it was life-changing. I suddenly stopped feeling hideous. For a long time it was the only thing that made me feel okay. If I had to skip binding one day to school or work I felt so damn ugly and I can’t really fully explain why because it’s hard for me to understand myself. I felt horrible on those days. I really miss binding but with my chronic pain I just can’t and it wouldn’t be healthy to keep doing so like I did anyway. I wore it for too long, I wasn’t really responsible or safe, but I had such horrible anxiety when I took the thing off that it became like a security blanket.
Also as a child I identified almost exclusively with male characters even before I knew that being gay was a thing. This is not a new thing that I just decided I wanted so I could feel special, this is an experience I have had since I was small. At playtime I was always the husband, the Vegeta, the strong monster dude, the small ambiguous mutant dude. If I was a girl character I was always a pretty specific type, like Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo lol. Like if you asked me which giant alien robots I identify most with the answer would be TFP Starscream and TFP Wheeljack. I identify equally with both even though they’re very different people (you could say one is very femme and the other is butch).
When people thought I was a boy (particularly in middleschool when I was very ambiguous and my voice got deeper) I got called it in mean ways. Secretly, inside, something felt good about it (the gender part) in ways I wasn’t able to express for obvious reasons. As I got older my friends always made comments like, “you are a cute little man!” from my behavior alone, or how I came out of my shell at Pride, or how I modeled in photoshoots. Then in highschool after I confided in a friend (who later learned they were trans) my confusing feelings on gender and how I felt so lost and unhappy, they called me it jokingly as a way of saying, “I accept you” and I liked it as a confirmation. It was something nice between us. Everyone has very different experiences.
As for my first encounters with the term younger trying to figure out my gender and sexuality, it was presented as a way of describing a certain experiences that a lot of us have with being “not trans enough” to count, even though we experience dysphoria and being differently gendered. I mean I wore a binder for like 3 years, and I got super angry when people asked me “so when are you going to get The Surgery?” for obvious reasons, bad question, rude and inappropriate and also, not every person who is differently gendered wants this. There was a boy I was hanging out with who stopped being interested when I told him about all of this because he did not want to date a boy, or whatever I was, because he was straight. And since I was something in between but at the time going by a male name, he wasn’t comfortable with it.
In truth, it goes way back. As a girl I wasn’t girly enough to be a girl, so I was called a tomboy and often shamed for it by peers and by family. As a boy, I wasn’t butch enough or wanting to change my body enough to find shelter under the umbrella. If I was afab, but felt that things made more sense and felt more comfortable as a boy, but loved wearing wigs and eyelashes (weirdly this makes me feel a strong masculine energy, I can’t explain it ever), and eventually grew to be okay with other people not being able to grasp my gender and just thinking I was Just A Girl... then, nope, I can’t sit with anyone because I’m too different among the different. The word, like others have said, sums up a lot of that experience.
Like. I had panic attacks a lot when I was in college because I was terrified. Terrified of what my family would think, of how people would react, terrified that I would never be happy because no one would accept me because I didn’t fit in anywhere. I lied to my dad that my binder was just a sports bra I had bought in the wrong size on accident and didn’t want to return.
It’s not clean cut for everyone, it’s very complicated and day to day I’m still trying to figure out just who the hell and what the hell I am. I might never know.
#personal#gendery wendery#queer stuff#i haven't talked about this stuff for a very long time so i'm kinda nervous but here goes#anonymous#ask
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5 Ways People Have Subconsciously Internalized Homophobia and Transphobia
I’m sure most, if not every, LGBTQ+ members has or will experience some form of homophobia or transphobia at some point in their lives. In fact, it was documented in a 2007 study by the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) that about 86% of LGBTQ+ youth reported being harassed at school (link). However, while some homophobic and transphobic thoughts or actions are easy to spot, there are others that are straddling the line, but still nonetheless inappropriate.
1. The “In Denial”
These are type of people that are the more obvious ones when it comes to spotting homophobia, and also the type I have most frequently encountered before and after coming out as pansexual. These are the type of people who say things like “I’m not homophobic or anything, but…”
You might have caught on how it sounds exactly the same the the phrase “I’m not racist, but…” because they are exactly the same in terms of their effect; to target a minority group. Sure, the start of this phrase may sound harmless, however what follows after “but” is usually something extremely homophobic. It has the same effect as when someone tells you “no offense” before they offend you. It’s a different version, but the translation is still the same.
Fun Fact: The cousin of “In Denial” is what I like to call “Willful Blindness”, and these are the type of people who say things like “okay, I don’t care if you’re gay/trans, I just don’t want to see or hear about it.”
2. The “Gender Confused”
This applies to transphobia in terms of both transgender and transsexual people. I have seen this first hand by some of my older family members. These are the people who say things like “is that a boy or a girl?” and “s/he a man/woman now”.
I personally find this very insensitive. That person has gone through great lengths to appear more like the opposite sex by either dressing like the opposite sex or going to the lengths of full blown surgery. The fact that people ask questions like that, and even go so far as to ignore their preferred pronouns drives me crazy.
3. The “Bi Stander”
This type of person usually annoys the crap out of me, because they are usually very up in your relationship life. This doesn’t apply to everyone on the LGBTQ+ spectrum, but these are the type of people who are usually so shocked that you can be attracted to more than one gender.
They say things like “wait so you’re with him now? I thought you were with a girl before?” “wait, so how do you know you like girls/guys if you’ve never been with them?” “wow you’re so selfish! Save some for the rest of us lol”
And the answers to all these questions, in order, are: (1) yes (2) because I am attracted to them (3) and fuck outta my house, Stephen.
4. The “Hormonal Teenage Boy Syndrome”
Sadly, I have seen this happen way too many times, and the targets are usually a female same-sex couple. These people, usually teen boys who have no filter, are a trap. If you tell them you’re a lesbian, they say things like “you two are a couple? OMG, make out” and “Oh, you’re a lesbian? So if a girl walked by here right now would you make out with her?”
This has happened way to often in my experience, and even though they are teen boys looking for some jerk material, it still makes the person uncomfortable and is very rude to say to someone.
5. The “Girl’s Best Friend”
Okay, so I wrote “girl” because I find this often happens the most with straight, cis-women, although I have seen this scenario with guys. Nevertheless, these people, usually women, are the ones who want a gay best friend. They usually seem to have this idea that “I want a gay best friend so we can go shopping together or talk about my boyfriend!”
It’s no surprise that they get disappointed when they find out that not all homosexuals are the same (i know, it’s such a shocker, right?”).This disappointment often comes from the fact that there is this expectation of gay men to act more feminine, and gay women to act butch, which is usually not the case.
Personally, the majority of people I know are gay and you would never be able to “tell” unless they showed up with their same-sex partner or felt comfortable enough to tell you. So stop stereotyping people and assuming that all gay men want to go shopping and here about your boyfriend troubles, Helen.
And there you have it! *Note: This was by no means a post to attack certain groups of people. This is only speaking from personal experience and from those I have witnessed.
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