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bonefall · 5 months

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⭕️Hey Bones! Is it ok if you explain and/or elaborate how Crowfeather is abusive to Breezepelt if please?⭕️

I do KNOW that crowfeather is indeed, abusive to Breezepelt, due to the fact that he emotionally and/or physically neglected him - with child neglect being known to BE a form of child abuse - and I also heard that he slashed and/or hit him within one of the books, which I believe is in the book Outcast, in chapter 16.

But I also wish people would talk and be informed about it more within the fandom, because in the parts of the fandom I’ve known portrayed Crowfeather’s neglect on Breezepelt as negative and bad, but not in a way that made me think and/or feel: “Wow, that’s pretty bad. That’s…actually abusive.” I suppose? So I hope more people will talk about it more in that type of way.

Also, please be aware that I have NOT read PoT, OoTS, etc. or barely any warrior cats books, since the majority of the information I got from the series is from the wiki and the fandom, so that probably explains why I didn’t know this part of Crowfeather’s character is as bad as it actually is until now. Also, feel free to talk about Crowfeather’s abuse on Breezepelt I haven’t mentioned and/or don’t know right now as well if you want.

I’m SO sorry that if this ask is unintentionally quite long, and feel free to make sure to take all the time you need to answer it. Thank you!

OH LET'S GOOOO

Breezepelt is both physically and emotionally abused by Crowfeather. I'm not talking about only child neglect; he is screamed at, belittled, and even once hit on-screen.

The fact that Crowfeather both neglected and abused him is very important to the canonical story of Breezepaw. There's actually a lot more to this character than people remember! Even from his first appearances he displays good qualities, a strained relationship with his father and adult clanmates, and is clearly shown to be troubled before we understand why.

As many problems as I have with the direction of Breezepelt's arc (especially Crowfeather's Trial), his setup is legitimately a praiseworthy bit of writing from Po3 which carries over into OotS. To say that Breezepelt was not abused is to completely miss two arcs worth of books SCREAMING it.

BIG POST. Glossary;

INTRO TO BREEZEPELT: The Sight and Dark River

ABUSE: Outcast, Social Alienation, the Tribe Journey.

DARK FOREST: How these factors push him towards radicalization.

For "brevity," I'm not getting into anything post-OotS. I'm just showing that Breezepelt was abused, the narrative wants you to know that he was abused, and that his status as a victim of child abuse is CENTRAL to understanding why he is training in the Dark Forest.

INTRO TO BREEZEPELT: The Sight and Dark River

Our very first introduction to Breeze is when Jaypaw walks off a cliff in the first book of Po3 and is rescued by a WindClan patrol. He's making snarky remarks, and Whitetail and Crowfeather are not happy about it. Whitetail snaps for Crow to teach his son some manners, and Crow growls for Breezepaw to be quiet.

But our proper introduction to him is at his announcement gathering, when Heatherpaw playfully introduces him as a friend,

From the offset something's not entirely right here between Breezepaw and his father. He's cut off by Heatherpaw here, but he's touchy whenever his father is involved, and we're not entirely sure why.

Throughout Book 1, he's just rude, with a notable xenophobic streak. He's a bit of a mean rival character for Lionpaw, as they're both interested in the affections of Heatherpaw and make bids to get her attention, but nothing particularly violent yet.

He participates in the beloved Kitty Olympics and gets buried in liquid dirt with Lionpaw, basically a rite of passage for any arc.

(And Nightcloud has a cute moment where she watches over them until they fall asleep)

As the books progress, the relationship between Crow and Breeze visibly deteriorates. They start from being simply tense with each other in The Sight, to the open shouting and hitting we see in Outcast.

In the very first chapter of Dark River, we learn where his behavioral issues are really coming from;

Crowfeather.

Breezepelt is getting xenophobia from his father. Occasionally he says something bigoted and his dad will agree and chime in, and those are the only positive moments they have together.

(Note: In contrast, Nightcloud explicitly pushes back against xenophobia, chiding Breezepelt for his rudeness to Lionpaw in back in The Sight, Chapter 21. The Sight is the book where a lot of "evidence" that the Evil Overbearing Woman is actually responsible for the rift between father and son but. No. She's not. Though she can be overprotective; Crow and Breeze have a bad relationship when she's not even around in Breeze's first appearance and even his Crowfeather's Trial Epiphany refutes it. Anyway this post isn't about Nightcloud.)

So he starts acting on his bigotry, accusing cats in other Clans of stealing, running really close to the border. What's interesting though, is that this is not entirely his doing. The first time we get physical trouble from Breezepaw, DUSTPELT aggressed it. Breezepaw and Harepaw were just chasing a squirrel and hadn't yet gone over the border at all.

We learn that WindClan is teaching its apprentices how to hunt in woodland, and tensions between the two Clans is starting to escalate as ThunderClan isn't entirely trusting of their intentions.

The second time, fighting breaks out over him and Harepaw actually crossing the border and catching a squirrel. WindClan is adamant that because it came from their land, it's their squirrel. So it's as if Breezepaw is modelling the aggression around him, learning how to behave from the older warriors and his father.

When he joins Heatherpaw and The Three to go find Gorsetail's kits in the tunnels, he's grouchy towards the ThunderClan cats, but very gentle with the kittens. Notably so. When Thistlekit is dangerously cold, he cuddles up next to her, and even assures Swallowkit when she's scared,

Through this entire excursion, he's the one in the comforting roles for the kittens. Breezepaw is the one who is taking time to tell the kits they'll be okay, that he'll protect them, and physically supporting them when they're weak, even when he's terrified.

And it's always contrasted to Heatherpaw who's way more 'disciplined,' as a side note. It's a detail I'm just fond of.

All this to point out,

Breezepelt displays his best qualities when he's away from the older warriors of WindClan, and he's at his worst whenever he's near Crowfeather. Even while he's essentially just a bully character for The Three to deal with. He's gruff but cooperative when it's just him and Heatherpaw interacting with The Three, but mean when there is an adult to please.

We're getting to the on-screen abuse now, but Po3 actually sets up Breezepaw's troubles and dynamics well before it's finally confirmed that he is a victim of child abuse.

ABUSE: Outcast, the Tribe Journey.

In Outcast, Breezepaw's problems have escalated into open aggression towards cats of other Clans, and is now a legitimate concern for his own safety. Yet, he's spoken over by older warriors, and reprimanded at nearly every opportunity, right in front of the warrior of another Clan.

Squilf just asked the poor kid how his training was going, and then Whitetail JUMPS to talk over him so she can complain, RIGHT in front of his face.

They can't even wait until they're alone to grumble something rude about Breezepaw, who is still just a teenager here;

They taught him already that a bit of prey that runs off their own territory still belongs to WindClan, encourage him to blow past borders in pursuit, and started a battle with ThunderClan over this. And then they're pissed off at him for being aggressive, thinking it's deserved to scold him in public.

When Onestar announces that he wants Breezepaw to go on the Tribe Journey, he's devastated by it...

Because he thinks WindClan doesn't like him, and he's right. He's gossiped about, torn into in front of a ThunderClan warrior, and even his own dad doesn't want to be around him. It's clear that Breezepaw's impulsive "codebreaking" behaviors are a desire to prove himself, and once you realize that, the way that he's being alienated is heartbreaking.

But Wait!! Hold on a minute! Where did he get a "patrol of apprentices" from to confront the dogs with, exactly?

Simple. Breezepaw CAN make friends! He actually values them a lot! So much that it's the first thing Crowfeather snaps at him over, out of frustration that his son is also being forced on this journey with him. It's an angry response to his child having emotional and physical needs, resentment that will continue all journey long.

Note that it's plural, friends. Breezepelt has multiple friends, at least one who is not Heatherpaw, and she promises to say goodbye to them.

Up next, they state over and over, Crowfeather and Breezepaw do not like each other. Crowfeather resents being around him and dealing with his rudeness, embarrassed and angry, and Breezepaw is absolutely miserable being sent on a journey to the mountains with a man who hates his guts.

The whole while, Crowfeather is brooding longingly about Feathertail, already thinking about her as soon as he kitty-kisses Nightcloud goodbye, his eyes looking somewhere distant. He makes a jab about loyalty when Breezepaw doesn't understand why they're helping the Tribe.

Breezepaw gets smacked after he's "shoved" at Purdy and acts rude to him, while the other three manage to be polite (while still having internal dialogue about how stinky he is).

Without so much as a, "cut that out," Crowfeather raises his paw and hits him. Breeze is quiet after that.

I don't give a shit how rude your teenager is being. Do not hit kids. Being throttled on the head is not okay.

In spite of the Three not liking Breezepaw, or even Crowfeather, they're constantly noting that their arguments are not normal, and that Crow is a cold, unsupportive father who digs into his kid constantly, and the only time he ever DOES "discipline" his child it's through immediately smacking him.

At one point, the apprentices get hungry, and decide to foolishly hunt in a barn that they know has dogs in it against Purdy's warnings. Once again, JUST like the first two books, Breezepaw is more friendly when Crowfeather is not around.

EVERY time he is alone with cats his own age, he's grumpy but cooperative. Even enthusiastic at times! The minute Crowfeather is in the picture, he's nasty.

Naturally, the dogs show up, but Purdy rescues them. Though Brambleclaw also chews his kids out (and i have strong opinions about bramble's parenting style for another time), Hollypaw is taken aback by the contrast of what a scolding from Brambleclaw looks like vs how Crowfeather reacts.

The narrative is desperately trying to tell you that the way Crowfeather treats his son is not normal.

And then Crowfeather is pissed off that Breezepaw is exhausted from running for his life from hungry dogs,

And he's constantly losing his shit whenever Breezepaw says something as innocuous as "dad im hungry"

Then, Breezepaw is made to watch his dad pine over the grave of a woman who died long before Crowfeather was even considering his mother for a mate. What he feels is jealousy, because he knows his own father doesn't love him anywhere near as much as he loves the memory of Feathertail.

This really goes on and on and on. The ENTIRE trip is like this, with Crowfeather treating Breezepelt poorly, giving him a smack before even verbally warning him, pushing him past his limits and blowing up on him when he asks simple questions about eating or resting.

It all comes to a head in this one exchange, towards the end. Hollypaw ends up snapping at Breezepaw for his rudeness, before having an epiphany.

It's explicit. Crowfeather's emotional abuse, his "scorn" for Breezepelt, is what is driving a wedge between him and all of his older Clanmates. Between EVERYONE in Breezepelt's life who wasn't already his friend. This awful treatment is only making him worse and worse.

Realizing this, she has more sympathy for him, but it's too late. He continues to be rude to her because he feels insulted, and her patience completely runs out. She's just a kid. They're both just kids. She's not responsible for fixing him when he's pushing everyone away at this point.

That's the end of Breezepelt in Outcast. It can't be helped anymore. Any spark of friendship they had together in the barn, or in the tunnels, is gone.

As the series progresses, Crowfeather continues to refuse any personal responsibility for the mistreatment of his son, even pinning all of Breezepelt's behavioral problems on Nightcloud. He is a cold, selfish father who only ever thinks about his own pain and reputation.

DARK FOREST: How these factors push him towards radicalization.

Everyone talks about the Attack on Poppyfrost, which happens in the first book of OotS, in oversimplified terms. YES he is going after a nun and a pregnant woman. I've never said that's not Bad.

But no one talks about "WHY", and that reason is NOT just that he desires power like so many other WC villains. Breezepelt makes his motivation very clear on the page.

Escalating to violence was about making Jayfeather feel the way that he does.

When Breezepelt says that he wants Jay to be surrounded by "lies, hatred, and things that should never have happened," he's talking about the way HE grew up, knowing his father never wanted him, and that his Clan HATES him as a result. Killing Poppyfrost is about trying to frame Jayfeather for her murder, so ThunderClan won't trust him anymore.

When Jayfeather points out the simple truth that what Breezepelt is saying doesn't make any goddamn sense, his hatred "falters." He's blaming his half-clan half-brother for his own treatment because of the reveal, but totally failed to consider that JAYFEATHER'S ALREADY GOING THROUGH IT... so his response is just this pitiful, "s-shut up, man."

Then the ghost of Brokenstar and Breezepelt bounce him back and forth between them like a beach ball for a bit until Honeyfern's spirit shows up.

Breezepelt's childhood abuse and social alienation was a hook that the Dark Forest latched onto, to reel him in. His anger at his half-brother is so obviously misplaced that its absurdity was something Jayfeather pointed out.

We soon learn that it's the Dark Forest who's planting that ridiculous idea in his head;

The narration is SCREAMING, "The Dark Forest is validating the anger he feels towards his father, and redirecting it towards The Three." He's described as 'kitlike,' Tigerstar's eyes are compared to a hypnotizing snake.

This prose could not make it more obvious if it drove to your house, beat you with it, and then spoon fed you the point while you were hospitalized.

At the end of this scene, Tigerstar sends Hawkfrost to recruit Ivypaw. This scene where Breezepelt is being lovebombed, and the command to start grooming Ivypaw, ARE LINKED. That was a choice.

A VERY GOOD choice! Again, as many issues as I have with OotS, its handling of indoctrination is unironically fantastic, and it owes a good amount of that to the outstanding setup of Breezepelt that was done back in Po3. And that setup doesn't work if Crowfeather was merely distant.

Breezepelt was abused by his father, both verbally and physically. It drove him to be more aggressive to prove himself, modeling the battle culture around him. The adults of WindClan judged him based off Crowfeather's responses, shunning and belittling the 'problem' teenager, which eventually drove Breezepelt to the only group that he felt "understood" him.

In a book series that is RIFE with abuse apologia, this is one of the few times that there's any behavioral consequences for abuse and the narrative holds the perpetrator accountable for it.

But people hear Crowfeather's deflective excuse in The Last Hope where he says he never hated him, blames Nightcloud for everything, and just lick it up uncritically.

Gee whiz, I wonder why the guy who never blames himself for any of his problems would suddenly say it was his ex-wife's fault. Real headscratcher!

(Crowfeather's Trial then goes onto, for all my own problems with it, also hold Crow accountable as the reason why Breezepelt turned out like he did. But that's a topic for another day.)

#This is headcanon territory here. But one day I realized I can read Breezy-P with BPD and he became a blorbo.#Never been able to unsee it and it massively endears him to me... Breeze Pelt Disorder...#I actually REALLY hate how his arc was resolved and strongly feel that he should have progressed into a bigger problem #But I equally strongly feel that being redeemed is the ideal ending for him #so if it was between him being pure evil/redemption death or the awful halting we got at the end of oots....#I'd pick the halting over him being pure evil or a redemption death.#I think BB made me REALLY fall in love with him. He's my sweet cheese. My good time boy.#Bones when he sees an angry black cat: ''i can fix you. first i must break you. but then i can fix you''#Like. what i dislike about where he went is that even if your anger issues came from abuse. you STILL are responsible for your actions #but in the end getting that Shitty Dad Approval fixes him. Not his own growth or self-reflection.#it feels like BREEZE gets his agency stripped away for HIS ABUSIVE DAD'S character arc #It retcons in a reason why Breezepelt is not still a problem and then he faded into the background.#while Crowfeather continues to get supporting roles and every now and then Breeze now looks at him fondly #BLECH.#Crowfeather #Breezepelt #Abuse #Child Abuse #Warrior Cats Analysis #And now you know anon!!

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destinysbounty · 2 months

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OH WAIT. How did it take me literally all this time to figure it out. Garmadon has that big ol hole in his chest because he's quite literally heartless. Like the hole is even on his left side, where hearts usually go. Harumi brought back a version of Garmadon without any love. He very explicitly told Misako that he has no heart in s10, which I thought he meant metaphorically, but no this man physically has no heart in his chest.

Oh my god this was so painfully obvious, why am I only just now piecing it together.

#i could overanalyze the reasons for why garmadon doesnt have a chest-hole in crystalized but i feel like that analysis speaks for itself #something something christofern something something redemption arc something something vinnys gay roommate #ninjago #ninjago garmadon #lord garmadon #ninjago oni trilogy #destiny post

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lotus-pear · 3 months

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Writing a complex character such as Dazai is actually really hard even for people who understand him because he is, as you said, extremely unpredictable. I don't know exactly what to tell you, but I'll try to help a little bit!

The whole thing about Dazai is that he doesn't understand humanity. He understands the basics and why people do what they do because he is analytical and has been studying people's behavior and human connections forever. But he doesn't feel connected with humanity and empathy the same way other people do. He perceives others from like, the other side of a barrier. He studies them carefully. Manages to care about them deeply sometimes. Even deeper when they're able to see him and get to him (Odasaku, Atsushi, Chuuya, the whole agency in fact means something to him). But there's always this layer of disconnection and apathy and emptiness he doesn't know how to get rid of. It's like he cares, but he actually doesn't because he rationalizes everything and turns it into a game of chess, more or less? And I think that frustrates him. He isn't used to caring about people because he doesn't understand them, but he takes an interest in the people he finds amusing to study and once he cares deeply, they're taken away from him (that's why he mourns and regrets Oda's death so much. He feels like the world takes everything away from him the second he manages to feel human). Hence the whole thing about not feeling human (amongst other things). He cares and yet he is realistic. He has regrets and suffers and feels pain and he can care about others (ignore all the people who keep portraying him as an emotionless monster, please) but he doesn't drown in self-pity when it comes to all the people he has killed and his past because he can rationalize that. It was another era. He has moved on. And if it's for the greater good of the mission or his journey to find something to live for, he doesn't care how many random people he has to kill (when he was younger he valued other people's lives way less, of course. Now that has changed because his apathy is something he doesn't turn into cruelty and instead uses to rationalize plans and help the world and the agency. Basically, when he was part of the mafia it was kind of "I don't give a fuck about random people" because he genuinely didn't feel anything for them, but now, even if he doesn't genuinely care for them, he protects even random people because that's what the image of kindness Oda had planned for him). Oda tells him that, if the good side and the bad one are the same and he hasn't found anything to live for yet, why not help the world while he's at it? And it's such a beautiful thought because Dazai has this issue with understanding humanity and making bonds. But he understands, now more than ever after Oda's death, what living and killing means. He might not actually care that much for society and its well-being, but maybe he can find something to live for in the light more than he would in the darkness. He keeps wanting to kill himself, right? He keeps trying. But he doesn't actually want to. It's common sense. If he truly wanted to, he already would've done it. "I don't like pain" is the most common thing to say when you don't actually want to do it. I think that, unlike Nikolai, who actually craves to die as a representation of freedom, Dazai only wants to keep trying and trying to find a reason for living. Chuuya was that thing when he was in the Mafia. Chuuya and Oda, because Chuuya is quite literally his soulmate (in the sense of bringing amusement to his life and also making him feel human, as his ability is the only thing that can help Chuuya. And also Chuuya not being human but being the most empathetic and emotional of all the people Dazai has met in the mafia) and Oda was the first one to actually understand him and see him for who he is, something I don't think he'll ever find again and that's why Oda's death fucked him up so bad. He found a place to belong and somebody to live for, and then he dies and leaves him alone? It's not fair, but he'll try to fight for good and live in the light if that's what Oda wanted for him. As if Oda knew him better than he knows himself because I also think he has a hard time with his own perception and personality.

In simpler words: Dazai has a hard time understanding humanity because he feels disconnected from it by a layer of apathy and the fact that he doesn't understand basic human needs/actions because he doesn't share them. One of the things that makes us human is desires, right? Wanting. Loving. Longing. Dazai rejects all of that because he doesn't know what he wants and nothing he tries ends up making him feel whole. In "No Longer Human", actually, you can read things like "It is almost impossible for me to converse with other people" and "I have never known what it means to be hungry / Eat or die, the saying goes, but to my ears, it sounded like just one more unpleasant threat". So he isn't a monster, his brain just functions in a different way. He sees everything. Analyzes every little thing. He's smarter than everybody else and he's aware of that, but he feels lonely there and only wants somebody to understand or something to fight for. Oda gave him both things, and the agency gave him a reason to keep going because he genuinely cares about doing good and keeping them safe. I don't think Dazai's journey has ended, because he still fights against.... So many things with himself. His past. His future. His desires. But at least now he has a thing to enjoy and bring him happiness. His constant act of being "silly" isn't that much of a facade. I mean, I think it is because if he acts like a clown, nobody will ever see the true self he hides. But I think he ends up having fun with the agency and annoying Chuuya because he sees them respond to his behavior and he finds it amusing. I think being extremely smart and lonely and tormented can coexist with being fun sometimes.

As per writing in his POV.... It depends on what you want to write, really. I think his brain functions differently depending on his mood. I guess the most important thing is to keep in mind his surroundings because he's always hyperaware of every little thing. But it frustrates him not knowing how he's feeling or not understanding what he actually truly needs, often focusing on others instead of looking into himself, because every time he does, he only finds himself empty and craving for something he doesn't know what it is. In his worst moments, I think it's quite obvious he tries to fix things with distractions and impulsive actions like substance abuse. In his more analytical moments, it's when he becomes more apathetic and sees the world as his game of chess and people as only pawns. He knows he's human, he just doesn't feel like it. Fyodor has a sense of superiority Dazai doesn't share. He's smarter because his brain functions differently, but he is no God. He is no entity. He analyzes from the POV of somebody external to humanity but knowing quite well he isn't God. And when he's having genuine fun and feeling some type of care/love? I think he's grateful. The emptiness is always there, though. Always haunting him. In the back of his brain. But he sees hope in Atsushi and a place to keep his promise in the agency and maybe fulfill his heart. He might always have a fucked up perception of himself, but at least he's aware that doing the right thing fills the hole in his chest more than tormenting others. As I said, he likes it there (and Chuuya) because it makes him experience humanity even if he keeps telling himself he isn't human (No Longer Human quote: "You miss her, don't you?" / "Yes." / "That's human nature, I guess").

I don't know if I helped you?? I think it's a bit of a mess, sorry 😭 It's like 3am and I don't know if what I said makes any sense, but I really hope I was able to help you!

holy FUCK it took me fifteen minutes to read all of this and i'm glad i did because this is the most succinct and articulate analysis i have ever seen of dazai's underlying nature and his ambitions in relevance to the plot OP I THINK IF ASIGIRI CANT WRITE ANYMORE YOU SHOULD TAKE OVER BSD MANGA BC I THINK U UNDERSTAND DAZAI BETTER THAN HE DOES SOMETIMES TBH💀💀 aaaa jkjk i digress you were so real for bringing up the yozo/dazai parallels bc there's genuinely so many and if i still had my fucking BOOK :side eye: i could go through the intricate and profound commentary i left in the margins but alas my dear friend insists on keeping it longer. there's nothing more i can say on this topic bc i agree w you on everything wholeheartedly i think you deserve a scholarship to harvard or smth bc god DAMN you would slay as a lit or lang major

#one more thing i will add is dazai's inherently selfish nature in the mafia which he lashes out against due to oda's last words #bc he rly DID only care abt his own interests and wouldn't take action unless he reaped mutual benefit #massive slay when he entered his redemption arc good for him good for him #anyway TY FOR THE ANALYSIS U ARE THE BEST MWAH MWAH💞💞💞#best ask i've received EVER <333333333 #lotus’s asks

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foxcort · 8 months

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sometimes i think about how the acotar books could've been a great way to show that "love doesn't heal trauma" rather than whatever points sjm was trying to make about abusive relationships and sa. instead of tamlin being abusive, she could've written that feylin's individual traumas kept them from reaching out to each other. or that feyre felt suffocated by the perfect, idyllic and alive spring court when she felt the opposite on the inside. or that tamlin felt overwhelmed by the sudden influx of responsibilities as he's trying to rid himself of the nightmares from utm. they try to make it work. they try to replicate some of the dates and dances from book #1 but there's an almost tangible shadow over their relationship now. and maybe one day feyre sees a memorial for andras or a likeness to one of the high fae living in the spring court to one of the high fae she killed utm, and has a panic attack. and this serves as the catalyst that severs feylin's relationship and reveals that yes, their love broke a curse, their love saved prythian but it couldn't (and shouldn't) heal them.

#im not an analysis girlie i'd much rather rb the smart people in this fandom #but i couldn't stop thinking of this despite sarah's tendency to resolve all of her characters' traumas with dick #no need to retcon or character assassinate my bbgs #feyre could've had a whole plot to herself where she lived outside the bounds of a romantic relationship and discovered her abilities #there could've been reconciliation between her and her sisters (perhaps something that could start her healing)#hell you could even put the feysand mating bond in there and show once again that a magical love bond does not heal trauma #give them a fling that rhysand stops because he knows she's trying to force it so she can feel healed #and its bare minimum but rhys actually sacrificing his desires on page and putting feyre's mental health above them gives him likable #qualities and shows that he truly cares about feyre and this could maybe start his redemption arc #this definitely spiraled but i think it would've been cool #anti sjm #anti acomaf

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speedydestinynacho · 2 months

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Why I think that killing off Adam was the biggest mistake Viv could make

TW: ranting and spoilers

This entire blog is just gonna be me going on a rant about my opinion on why I think Adam shouldn't of been killed off and why he shouldn't be killed off so early and shit , not only did I not see it as unnecessary for the plot, but there's so much Vivienne could of done for his character other than just throwing the whole character away in just one season , I'll be listing things for what they could of done for Adam's character

1. Plotholes

I'm just gonna say it right here and right now, Adam was killed off waaay too early and not only would we be left with many many plot holes like, where is both of his sons (Caine and Abel), the potential they could of used for his character, and ect.

2. Character potential

^^this fucking scene^^ , because the thought of when Adam first pulling up and being like "Hello, Adam here!!" Is just so fucking funny to me (just less plagiarized, and more unique)

and maybe his arrival leads to his words "Hell is forever" ,his own song gets used against him sense not only did he have the audacity to go to the hotel to get back into heaven but he has said it himself, how redemption isn't possible

But references aside ,Adam can have some potential for his character, like maybe he not only comes to the hotel not only for the intention of going back to Heaven because he hates being down in hell but also for the intention of plotting some revenge for what the hotel residents all did to him

,but the longer he stays there the less and less he tries to plot his revenge , the more and more he realized how flawed heaven and heaven's people are most of the time, and ect.

And ect. and he's so indenial of it at first and doesn't want to believe it but no matter how much he tries there's no denying it , deep down he knows it's true but he doesn't want to believe it

3. Character potential (again)

Like maybe Adam has become fallen in the first place because not only did him sinning in Heaven eventually catch up to him, but maybe also because after finding out the exterminations were unnecessary after Sir Pentious entered the heavens gates, it was finally time for Adam to take his fall

They can also actually start touching on Adam's trauma and how it affects him, his trauma being : being forced into a relationship the moment he was created (Lilith and Eve) , having to be the father and/or decendant of all of the human race , having been kicked out of the garden after Lucifer has second handedly invented evil into the world , and said evil causing his son to kill his other son(which is his and God's fault also)

Like maybe sense Vivziepop is putting a slight different spin to things to Hazbin hotel, she doesn't really having to follow the entire list (sense it's her show) , she can still do something with some of it and still find a way to bring it up and with that it could be the reason behind how he behaves , his personality as a whole, and why he wears that narcissistic mask (while it doesn't necessarily excuse his actions)

4. Character design

If Adam was to somehow end up coming back as a fallen angel, as a sinner. Viv can find a way to go crazy with his fallen design, like any other cartoonist in this world, I know that those cartoonist has seen fanart and fan creations of their shows, movies, and characters

I've seen my fair share of seeing really really good fallen designs for Adam and I'm fucking here for it , they're all so good

,it just needs to happen

5. Character development & redemption arc

Like mentioned in Character potential 2 , Adam can have some potential for his character, like maybe he not only comes to the hotel not only for the intention of going back to Heaven because he hates being down in hell but also for the intention of plotting some revenge for what the hotel residents all did to him

but the longer he stays there the less and less he tries to plot his revenge , the more and more he realized how flawed heaven and heaven's people are most of the time, and ect.

And ect. and he's so indenial of it at first and doesn't want to believe it but no matter how much he tries there's no denying it , deep down he knows it's true but he doesn't want to believe it . Like maybe Adam just still acts the same but without him realizing it or acknowledging it he's just becoming a better person and maybe even comedically he just thinks that the misfits gave him a disease /illness when that's not the case

Maybe in the next seasons he could even become a better father to his sons, Caine and Abel but similar to Lucifer, let them do their own thing sense those two are basically adults now and hey, Adam could be more like a cool dad

I feel like Adam has more cool dad energy

6. The relationships he'll end up making

Just imagine the relationships Adam slowly but gradually builds during his redemption arc, like maybe him and Charlie ending having like an fun uncle and niece kind of relationship or something, maybe slowly but gradually he becomes like another friend of Angel Dust's, and ect.

As he processes through his redemption arc he can end up making friends and building relationships down in hell , possibly in the near future Charlie, Vaggie, Angeldust, Alastor, Cherri bomb, Husk, Nifty, Razzle, and Lucifer doesn't fight against him but with him if another threat were to come

7. There could be another antagonists that's worse or maybe even a bigger threat than Adam

Maybe another antagonists could be made that's more of a mystery and even a bigger threat than Adam , that's just like Adam (or not) but amp up the bad traits he has, maybe this time Adam could be the one helping the others fight and rebel against this guy in his own way

8. Another musical number

Another musical number with them singing badly about heaven in song in the near future but this time with Charlie ,Vaggie, Angeldust, Alastor, Cherri bomb, Husk, Nifty, Razzle, Lucifer, and most of all Adam but the reprise has a metal spin to it and this time Adam joins in and does it with his guitar

9. Another reason she shouldn't of killed off Adam is because she'd be killing off fat /plus size representation

Another reason I feel like Viv shouldn't of killed off Adam is because she'd be killing of fat character representation and I wouldn't want a chubby character like Adam to be killed off

,of course we have Mimzy now but she doesn't count sense she's just one character and only just one character and as much as I love Mimzy I feel like the show needs more than just one or two fat characters

And for the people that think "He isn't chubby" , try again and look at him again , how he sits , lays down (like how he was laying after her got shanked in his arm by Charlie), and ect.

10. I just want some vulnerable moments with Adam

Whether that be Adam bawling his eyes out, having a panic attack, having a mental/emotional breakdown, or ect. I just want to see a vulnerable side of Adam, Adam angst if you will

Okay I'm done ranting, bye <3 <3

#hazbin hotel fandom #hazbin hotel #I'm basically just gonna be ranting about Adam this entire time so buckle up youll #hazbin hotel adam #adam hazbin hotel #ted talks #hazbin hotel analysis #hazbin hotel rant #vivziepop #vivienne medrano #If i don't get this than so help me I'm writing this shit as a fanfiction #professional yapper #yapping #just yappin #through all of this he'll still be in character but not in a way where he's not getting a redemption arc

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atyd1960 · 6 months

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The more I think about it the more I'm confused about Snape's so called "redemption arc".

We don't know much about his years at Hogwarts outside of the time James hanged him from his underwear and he called Lily a Mudblood, but we know that:

1. He had a disdain for Muggles ever since he was born or at least ever since he was 10 y/o bc that's when he meets Lily and Petunia and treats the latter like garbage.

2. He was friends with Mulciber and Avery- known death eaters, especially Mulciber who we know was particularly close with Baldy due to the time he came to Hogsmede with him for his job interview with dummydore.

From that we can assume that he was a witness and a participant in A Lot of hate crimes against Muggle Borns ever since he was a minor. One of which was the time Mary was the victim.

3. We know HE invented the spell James used to hang him from his panties, which must mean that he used it against others, probably muggle borns, and his DE friends must've used it as well.

4. We know he invented the spell Sectumsempra to use against his enemies?? (Sorry it's been a while since I read the books I don't remember the exact quote.) and his enemies are almost certainly the Marauders. Also maybe his dad but that's a discussion for another day.

5. We know he was one of Baldy's dearest death eaters, even tho he was a Half-Blood with no status and no connections, which means he definitely did a lot of horrific things to Muggles and Muggle borns and the members of the Order of Phoenix.

6. We know he heard Trelawney's prophesy after eavesdropping in a bar, and immediately ran to Baldy with it. He knew that by telling Baldy about the prophecy an innocent baby will be killed, and he didn't give a shit. I cannot stress enough how much that information in vital for his character. Taking a baby's life so that Baldy might give him a sit closer to him by the table. And nothing would've happened to him if he shut his mouth and didn't go to Baldy. He didn't have his life or even his status\loyalty on the line. He just sacrificed this anonymous innocent baby for kicks and giggles.

7. The only point in which he cared about his actions was when Lily's life was on the line. This wanker really didn't care that he just gave Baldy (a man who made it his life' mission to kill Lily and the likes of her) a reason to kill Lily's son and husband, who were practically her only source of joy while she fought against his people in the war. He just wanted the girl he slurred and stalked and mistreated in high-school to live with all her friends and family dead. And thought he was doing something good. I don't even know how to begin to describe how fucked up that is.

8. He went to Dummydore and asked him to save her. After he got her, her husband and her kid to be under an even worse constant death threat than they were before because of Lily's blood status and their participant in the order. And after he spent the last 3-4 years killing Lily’s friends and the people who share her blood status.

9. That was also the point in which he offered himself to be a double spy right?? Again real heroic of him to risk his life after all the shit he did because he was in love with a girl whose life he ruined. He never cared about all the shit he did and all the people he murdered and he never actually wanted to help innocent people or do good by the world or even by Lily.

10. After Baldy died for the first time and the first war ended, Harry had nobody left, and Dummydore put him with Petunia and Vernon. Snape knew better than anyone else what the Dursleys will do to Harry. He knew everything, and he didn't do shit. Not only did he not do shit, but he also made things worse for Harry by bullying and harassing him since the moment he stepped foot in the castle.

11. Extending on the last point- Snape bullied, harassed, abused, mistreated and discriminated against students at Hogwarts ever since he started teaching there, I'm not gonna start elaborating on all the times he did those things because that would take a different essay of similar length.

12. Yeah I don't really know what to add here? That's pretty much it I think.

So to conclude: am I really expected to forgive him because he loved Lily and had a hard time with James when they were 16 and he spied for Dummydore for a bit?? Being a looser in middle school and then becoming a double spy doesn’t make up for… anything. Especially since he never stopped being a terrible person.

#stan bambi #Stan Lily Evans #Snape slander #redemption arc #marauders era #first Wizarding war #severus snape #Harry Potter #Slytherin #Snape hate #death eaters #character analysis #stan james potter #order of phoenix #Voldemort #Dumbledore

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infinite-orangepeel · 1 year

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steve harrington’s character redemption arc as told by the ancient greek definitions for the 7 types of love

note: i’ve taken creative liberty with the definition of “philautia” to better fit steve’s narrative, im interpreting it as a more narcissistic type of self-love than acceptance of self, here

#steve harrington character study #steve harrington redemption arc #steve harrington character analysis #steve harrington #steddie #stranger things #eddie munson #fruity four #steve x eddie #joe keery #steve harrington headcanon #steddie headcanon #steddie incorrect quotes #incorrect steddie #incorrect steve harrington #incorrect stranger things quotes #steve harrington deserves the world #the steddie brainrot is real #steddie brainrot

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raayllum · 5 months

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Been thinking recently about the idea in fandom that boils down to, usually, "the Character that Changes the most being deemed 'the most complex'" and that character development (i.e. character change) being held up as The Golden Standard of a Good Character and...

I fundamentally disagree, but first, a little bit more explanation about what I mean

Very often shows and movies, when being recommended on tumblr, are sold on the basis of having enjoyable/in-depth characters. Often times this also means conflating enjoyable with likeable, but that's a discussion post for another day. And even more often, it means there are characters who are seen as Deep because of how radically they change over the course of a story.

Lots of times, this falls into two camps:

Characters change radically, but early on in the story, and remain largely the same past that point of change (think anytime in a first season) until the end of the story

People recommending shows based on characters having traditional redemption arcs (enemy or bully to friend / good guy / love interest)

Now, I'm not saying that 1) character change can't be deep or 2) that character growth is bad. Neither of those things are true, even subjectively. What I am saying is that 1) character change / a character changing is not the same as automatically being a good, interesting, or well written character and 2) character growth is not the be-all-end-all of character writing. Yes, there can be problems with characters be overly stagnant, but typically that's only an issue if 1) a work is serialized and concerned with character development and they don't change at all, 2) a character never adjusts (rightly or wrongly) according to their mistakes, or 3) all of the above but they're a main character.

However, assuming that Character A has to be radically different at the beginning of a story in terms of their personality/values/etc. as they are at the end of the story is just... not how it works, necessarily. This is, I think, one of the reasons why antagonists who get redemption arcs tend to be more popular than heroes who had good values the whole time, because there's more opportunity to point and go "look, they've changed! they act on and have basic compassion now!" Which, fair enough, but again: other types of characters are fine too.

Particularly for characters fandom tends to have the hardest time with: paragons.

Paragons are characters who are usually the central hero, pretty morally if not entirely moral upstanding, and because they already start out in a place of "always doing the right thing," they rarely radically change by the end of the story. Instead, paragons are used to progress theme/messaging and inspire other characters around them to change (a good example might be Buddy from the Christmas movie Elf and to a lesser extent - as he's more transformative as a character - Aang from Avatar: The Last Airbender, who's there to return childhood to his friends as an ideal and carry on Air Nomad values).

And for TDP, that's Ezran.

He's the youngest in the main cast and by far the most measured. While Callum and Rayla are off fighting, he keeps a level head. He assumes responsiblity largely without guilt, holds other people accountable most often without being cruel, he's kind and deeply compassionate, he shows regular empathy for his enemies even when he has to treat them like enemies, he loves his father but does not idealize him, he is king without craving power, he's trusting and honest and while he has his flaws (overly optimistic, his passivity, sometimes struggles to consider other people's emotions, naivety, etc), they - as of yet - are not overly connected to his sense of morality (which is a distinct difference compared to the rest of the main cast).

Now, TDP is less concerned with the theme of Childhood compared to something like ATLA, but Ezran being a child (again, in a way the rest of the cast is not) is also very important. Ezran, and Callum to a lesser extent, is the embodiment of the concept that children aren't born with hatred in their hearts; it's learned, or earned, through experience, society, and suffering. And as Ezran spells out for us in 4x03, he has suffered and been hurt - and he believes in breaking the cycle and believing in hope for a better future anyway.

Ezran's steadfast reflection of the series' core theme of "true strength - to break the cycle - is found in vulnerability, in forgiveness, in love" in both word and action does make him the closest thing to a paragon in the series. He's the one who finds the egg; he's the one who forgives Rayla and Soren; he's the one who still tries to help Claudia; he's the peacemaker, the literal bridge between peoples and species in spite of witnessing so many of their worst crimes/actions.

In both arcs, there tended to be a trio of characters who rapidly change, and a trio of characters who are more, comparatively, stagnated. Early S1 Rayla, Callum, and Soren are radically different in a ton of ways than they are even at the beginning of S3, but especially by the end. On the other hand, Viren - post 1x03 at least - Claudia and Ezran are far more consistent in arc 1; their circumstances change, but their viewpoints and realities and choices are largely the same from season to season - they just keep doubling down. This doesn't mean they don't change at all, but they don't radically transform - they just become more of what they already are.

I'd say that in arc 2, things have switched up, with Callum, Rayla, and Viren being the three who are radically transformed (thus far) with Soren, Claudia, and Ezran still being in the more stagnated corner. (For more notes on Claudia and Ezran's shared passivity, check out this pre-S4 meta.)

Ezran starts out the series as a good hearted, slightly mischevious little boy who loves his family and believes that people can be good. The point of the series is not to change these parts of him. It's to demonstrate the difficulties - losing both his parents, taking on the kingship, struggling to make the right choices, keeping his friends together, caring about peace and sentiment in a world that increasingly does not - of maintaining those positive traits, again, in a world that is determined to test those ideals and attributes.

Ezran is not here to be transformed by the storm, the same way his friends and some of his companions are. He is here to demonstrate the strength and necessity in weathering the storm so that the world cannot make you cold, or uncaring, or violent, even when those paths and emotions would be much easier to go down.

Good character development isn't about changing your character; it's about changing your audience's understanding and perspective of your character. Sometimes that means the character is also changing simultaneously, but that's far from a requirement for a character to be interesting. Like most things in writing, what it really boils down to is execution.

And I could go on about why I think people gravitate towards characters who start off evil (often part of imperialist empires or older, institutionally backed systems) and learn that the evil was wrong actually (and sometimes not even that) but that's a meta for another day, and this one is long enough.

TLDR; Ezran, like a few other characters in the show - antagonists and protagonists alike - is not meant to be a radically transformative, even though he very much has grown and changed. Instead, he's meant to exemplify the importance of not losing your sense of self in an increasingly cruel or difficult world, and what parts we should arguably try our best to hold onto as well.

#writing advice #tdp #as an example #analysis series #analysis #tdp ezran #ezran #the dragon prince #writeblr #i've always preferred paragons / non traditional redemption arcs so my preferences are #very opposed to general tumblr's but not at all surprising #also don't think i need to spell out why paragons would be particularly compelling for ND / autistic folks

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incorrectsmashbrosquotes · 1 year

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You know what slaps? Every fucking time?

When the villain becomes the hero and the hero becomes the villain.

And not in that bullshit “oh, the good guys were really the bad guys the whole time uwu”. I mean when a real villain, a dark and cruel monster genuinely sees the error of their ways and strives to be better in tandem with a real and true hero sliding down the path of hate and evil and then, one day, they look at each other and realize they’ve swapped places.

Like, it’s the symmetry. The monster becoming human and the human becoming a monster. The villain starting to see clearly, understanding that even if there’s no forgiveness for them they have to rise above what they were and try to be better. Meanwhile the hero deludes themself further and further, isolating and growing bitter with every step until they finally snap and become the very thing they fought against.

It doesn’t get any better than that.

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messofcontradictions01 · 10 months

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stop comparing every redemption arc to zuko I beg you!! yes that is a masterpiece of an arc but it is HIS arc — other characters from other pieces of media will not experience the same steps in the same order! characters will have done objectively worse things than zuko ever did and still get redeemed in the narrative and you have to accept that. if you are going to critique an arc, critique how it operates within the bounds of its own media rather than constantly comparing it to an arc from a totally different piece of media that you think is better.

#atla #avatar #avatar the last airbender #zuko #redemption arc #meta analysis #analysis

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oceanwithouthermoon · 4 months

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at the end of a lot of my posts involving toritsuka i always stop myself from elaborating too much cuz i end up thinking like 'ah everyones knows how i feel about toritsuka' but DO THEY ?? do they.. because ive gotten (and ignored) multiple asks from people who think i fucking hate toritsuka and its so insane to me because WHERE DID I FUCKING SAY THAT?? guys.

he is literally so silly! i lowkey feel like i need to make a masterpost of everything ive ever said about him just so that i can force it down everyones throats and make you all understand my complex feelings on this stupid dumb idiotic little freak!

its a love-hate kind of obsession <3

#its not really 'love-hate' i dont hate him at all i just think he is very complex and interesting #and i do like to focus on his wrongs more than his rights but its not because im trying to invalidate his progression #its because i think he does those bad things for a REASON and i want to build on that #my beautiful princess with a traumatic past and a redemption arc #its not really a redemption arc idk what else to call it though #this is also how i feel about kusuke btw like how can people think i hate him.#both of these characters i literalky just acknowledge the bad things they canonically do and people take it as hate #that tells me so much about how u guys ignore the bad parts of your fav characters #stop pretending they did nothing wrong. they did so much wrong.#'hes my babygirl he can do no wrong' NUH UH hes MY babygirl and he's committed atrocities #its just sooooo crazy to me that people refuse to acknowledge him doing shitty things just cuz they like him..#this is kind of why i created the meownalysis tag cuz i wanted people to b able to see my specific takes if they were looking #but sometimes i just talk and it doesnt quite fall under an analysis or i just like mention something quietly in a post #saiki k #tdlosk #the disastrous life of saiki k.#toritsuka reita #meows post #meownalysis #?? not realky but in gonna put it here

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bonefall · 4 months

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Maybe I'll make a post on this at some point but like, something deeply fucked up about TNP and Po3 that people have totally forgotten about is how badly they try to whine that "Tigerstar Had Good Traits :("

Firestar does it, Brambleclaw does it, and they keep doing this after it becomes this GRAND irony that Firestar almost gets Tiger'd to death in a fox trap because he was too trusting. Bramble gets his pity award of keeping deputyship and then cries to his son about how No One Saw The Good In Tigerstar :(

And it's wiiiiild that no one else in this fandom has done anything with the fact that Leopardstar broke the Warrior Code to appoint Hawkfrost, who had no apprentice, an extremely aggressive and warmongering Tigerclone who says things like "Tigerstar wasn't the worst cat to look up to." ONLY qualifying trait was being kinda like Tigerstar.

And she practically did that the SECOND Mistyfoot went missing. And then Leopardstar continued to be one of the most violent and xenophobic leaders through Po3, joining with WindClan to attack ThunderClan.

What I'm getting at is that like, a few years ago, with books like "Blackfoot's Reckoning" and "Shadow in RiverClan" it's like they suddenly decided to retcon in a bunch of "redemption arcs" in hindsight. They just pretended like there was this grand high reckoning with TigerClan, when there literally wasn't, and if anything that caused SERIOUS problems for the cast that the authors didn't fully acknowledge as such.

And now ppl haven't actually read the main series and are just working with their recent memory of all these retcon books.

But TNP and PO3 are still there, and you can go and see the ACTUAL timeline where Leopardstar is really not apologetic at all, and Blackstar is a useful stooge for the very next wannabe dictator that strolls in, in spite of the new side content that COMPLETELY mischaracterized them for their plots to work.

#I just wish people could be more critical of this #And im not entirely anti-retcon. Mind you #But I am here because i think these retcons make them WORSE characters. It's BAD for a character to GET a book with a redemption arc and--#Then they don't change at all and act like totally different people later in the timeline #And Leopardstar is the worse one between her and Blackstar BECAUSE she has sooo many active choices here #Im confident in my choice for BB the more I think about it. Leopardstar's dismantling of the bonehill was good #But it works better as a tragedy imo with the rest of the series in mind #That for a brief moment. A fleeting whim. She could have changed.#But she never did.#And Blackstar who was FAR less repentant at the time DID eventually turn around.#At the end of the day one of them appointed Hawkfrost as codebreaking deputy.#And the other did not.#And I think it's fucking bullshit the way that Leopardstar's retcondemption implies that Hawkfrost was just so tricky he mislead her #The old and experienced leader who had been fooled by a tiger before and was soso sorry for it. Just got tricked.#Like fuck off. She never had a redemption. Stop trying to tell me she did 15 years later #She's a girlboss who empires too close to the sun in pursuit of power and drags everyone down with her #Not a sad weepy smolbean #Bone babble #Warrior cats analysis

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celestialastronmy · 1 month

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Here we go, I wanted to speak about one of my favorite redemption arcs in video game history

This is one of the most compelling games, where we get to witness an extraordinary transformation that's as heart-tugging as it is inspiring. Let's delve into the life of Lee Everett - the convicted murderer who rose like a phoenix from the ashes of his past to become a father figure to young Clementine. This is the story of a man who found redemption in the unlikeliest of places, making us feel for him, root for him, and connect with him in a way few characters have managed to do before.

In the dystopian world that is now Lee and Clementine's home, redemption isn't as simple as saying sorry. It's a long, winding road of self-discovery and growth. Our journey starts with Lee in the back of a police car, his past marred by a crime of passion and his future looking anything but bright. But hold on, here's where things take an exciting turn. The zombie apocalypse, terrifying as it may be, offers Lee a chance to start afresh, to build a new identity that's more than his past mistakes.

The crux of Lee's redemption arc is his relationship with Clementine. This isn't a forced bond but one that grows and evolves naturally, giving us a heart-rending look into guilt, responsibility, and the potential for change. From the moment he meets Clementine, Lee becomes her guardian angel. Guided by her innocence and her faith in him, he vows to protect her, a promise that helps him make amends for his past in a way nothing else could.

As we move further into the story, we see Lee's paternal instincts come to the fore. He teaches Clementine how to survive in this harsh new world, helping her become a fighter, and in doing so, he proves his commitment to her well-being. These moments mark his transformation from a convicted criminal to a protective guardian.

Lee's redemption is a masterful narrative device. It's not flashy or over-the-top. It's subtle, profound, and incredibly moving. His redemption comes not from a grand declaration of change, but from small, everyday actions that demonstrate his evolution. It's not about forgetting his past but about his dedication to Clementine's survival.

The real genius in Lee's redemption arc is its setting. The zombie apocalypse, for all its horror, offers Lee a chance at redemption that he could never find in the pre-apocalyptic world. It frees him from the labels society had slapped on him, allowing him to redefine himself as a protector, a mentor, and a father figure.

The final episode of the game is the perfect culmination of Lee's redemption arc. On the brink of turning into a zombie, his last act is to ensure Clementine's safety. He guides her through handcuffing him, ensuring he won't be a threat once he turns. It's his ultimate act of redemption - a man once punished for taking a life now willingly gives up his own to save another.

So there you have it - the redemption arc of Lee in Twdg, a narrative so immersive it sucks you right in. It's a testament to the transformative power of relationships and the potential for change, even in the direst of situations. Lee's bond with Clementine redeems him, not by erasing his past but by allowing him to shape a different future. In the end, Lee Everett is remembered not as a convicted criminal but as a father, a protector, and a teacher. His redemption arc is a beacon of hope - a reminder that even in a world overrun by the dead, there's room for humanity and goodness to flourish.

#lee everett #clementine #twdg #i love them both #redemption arc #character analysis

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