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evasive-anon · 3 months

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Jason Attacking Tim at Titans Tower

Fanon vs Canon

We've all seen the versions in fanfiction but I'm not so sure everyone's seen the original so if you're one of those batfam fans who doesn't want to read the comics (regardless of reasons) but you are curious about how it actually went this is for you.

What I'm addressing:

What does Jason actually say to Tim during the attack?

Did Jason drug all the other Titans?

Did Jason really wear a Robin costume?

Did Jason slit Tim's throat or call him replacement?

Did Jason actually break Tim's bo staff?

Was Tim crying or scared?

Did Jason write a message on the wall in Tim's blood?

Did Jason's eyes glow green?/Did he follow pit rage mechanics?

Panels and details below. This is a LONG one.

What did Jason actually say to Tim during the attack?

Dialogue in fanfiction during the Titans Tower attack varies based on what kind of fic you're reading but usually its either 'time to clip Replacement's wings' if its staying a beatdown whump 'or oh no precious lil bby why is no one watching you' if its an accidental child acquisition. Not judging either option, but this ain't about them its about the real shit.

Look at these opening lines:

Hey, Tim. I was here first.You're the Red Hood. You've been cleaning up Gotham the easy way. Easy? What do you know about easy, Tim? You had a father that looked after you. You went to a private school, right? You slept in a bed. I slept on the streets, I lived in the alleyways in Gotham. Trying to survive. Until Bruce took me in. I trained as hard as I could. I did whatever he asked. . . at least at first. But it didn't matter. They said I wasn't tough enough to be robin. But today, they say you are. Show me, Tim. Show me what you have that I didn't.

Jason really puts himself out there in all of his dialogue in this encounter, the struggle of having to fight for anything and everything he got in life, even the things that came to everyone else for free, and then being told he wasn't even good enough for the things he fought for.

There's a trope in fanfics that if Jason knew Tim stalked Batman and forced his way into being Robin that it would change how Jason felt about the situation but that's even addressed in this comic:

You were a kid, worried about how Batman was spiraling down into darkness. You spent weeks tracking the dark knight. Solving a mystery no one else could. You discovered who he was behind that mask. Millionaire Bruce Wayne. You were so pleased with yourself, I'm sure that you forgot who you were really dealing with. I know Bruce Wayne. And let me tell you, Tim if someone was trying to find out who Batman really was. If someone was stalking him for weeks. He'd know about it. You can't be that good. I am. He let you find him. And I bet he said the same thing to you as he did to me, didn't he? That you had a talent to make a difference in Gotham. That he needed someone he could trust in war on crime. That you were one of a kind. The light to his darkness. Robin, the Boy Wonder.

Tim saying 'I am' is really such a moment that doesn't come through in text because he is right that he really did do that but I also completely understand why Jason wouldn't believe it.

TBH my favorite part is how done Tim honestly sounds with Jason thoughout all his trauma dumping. Like imagine a grown man who used to work the same part time job as you breaking into your house, dressing up in your work uniform, ranting about how much the job ruined his life while he beats your ass??? God, and he probably had to write a fucking report about it after. RIP Timmy.

What do you want? Do you want to be Robin again? Is that it? You... want to take it away from me? Why in the hell would I ever want that? Don't you get it? When I died no one cared! No one remembered me. Are you completely insane? No one could forget you. I've spent my entire career wearing this mask under your shadow. I had to convince Batman to let me try this. All because he'll never stop blaming himself for what happened to you. You ask me, that's the only reason he hasn't taken you down. He's holding back. But me? No freakin' way. That's the Robin I wanted to see. Still. You do realize the whole idea of training a teenager to fight against something he'll never eradicate is a mistake. It didn't even surprise anyone when I died. When I failed. I failed-- but I'm still beating you. Do you think you're that good now?! Do you really, Tim? Yes.

Tim bashing Jason across the face as he says 'no freakin' way'? *chefs kiss*

Jason drugging the other Titans to knock them out?

Little bit true, Kory was actually just already away from the tower and BB and Cyborg were about to bounce because of the drama going on with Donna's return but Jason like super tazes them and then drugs Raven who he thought already went through enough shit without him knocking her out violently.

Note: Jason says in the text here that he never rolled with Cyborg or BB but like he actually did in some comics so?? The continuity is lie I guess idk.

Did he show up in Red Hood gear or a Robin costume?

Both tbh but he spent most of the time in the Robin costume but bro actually made a stripper rip away version of his Red Hood gear so he could dramatically reveal the Robin costume underneath. I can't believe no one ever includes that in their fics its so fucking funny.

Does he call Tim 'replacement' or slit his throat?

No, this came from a Batman comic with Hush not Teen Titans. That incident takes place in a graveyard not Titans Tower and he calls Tim pretender not replacement.

Does Jason break Tim's staff?

Tragically, no. The bo staff snap would have been iconic. Instead he just takes Tim's staff and beats Tim up with it and breaks stuff. BUT!! He uses it to bust a statue in the TITANS MEMORIAL ROOM which is a place in Titans Tower just for having statues of dead previous titans and Jason is rightfully pissed he didn't get one. Like Tim is correct in saying no one forgot him still but like I would be hurt too if all my friends made cool statues of friends that died and then just left my zombie ass out, like wtf.

Note: I am seriously losing my shit that I have never seen someone bring up the memorial room in a fanfic. That is so much angst material. 😭

Tim crying/ being scared?

Hell no. He's a fucking Robin you know he's being a sassy boy the whole time, even towards the end when he's about done he's still saying he's her and I love Tim for that.

Note: There are a few different times where Tim does a flippy Robin move and then Jason just fucking copies it like flexing that he can do it too, and its just so petty and stupid he's trying so hard to be better than an actual child. 💀I get why in the context of the situation but its still so ridiculous.

Message on the wall in Tim's blood?

TBH I really don't know for sure on this one?? Like its implied that he did but Tim isn't bleeding all that much throughout this beatdown and like we don't see Jason do it just the Titans reacting to seeing it after. It could be Tim's blood, it could be red paint, and it could even be that Jason packed an actual bucket of blood to bring with him to write a message with after he finished. TBH the world is your oyster on this one.

Note: If anyone can find another comic where this event was brought up where they actually clarify it was Tim's blood hmu and I'll update this but I couldn't find any.

Pit rage/ glowing green eyes?

Fanon only at this point in the comics. Jason is seems to be himself and even thinks Tim and his friends are pretty cool at the end, and he's just like reflecting on if he had good friends if he would have turned out better as he leaves.

#tim drake #jason todd #red hood #robin dc #teen titans #comic panels #jason and tim #teen titans 2003 #dc comics #panels are from teen titans (2003) issue 29 #i would never tell anyone they have to read comics but i do think seeing the original scene of fanon favs is good #not because you need to follow them but because its good to know what you're taking inspo from #jason attacking tim at titans tower #LONG POST

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roseworth · 9 months

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Do you have recs for lorena, 🙏?

YES. it is incredibly easy to give lorena recs bc shes in like 3 things 👍

if you read aquaman (2003) #16-39 and aquaman: sword of atlantis #51-57 you've basically read everything shes in that matters. but ill even give specific recs from there <3

aquaman #15 (if u want some context for what's happening lol but shes not in this one)

am #16-20 (kind of her origin story <3 this arc includes basically the only scraps of backstory for her we ever get, then a lot of her feelings about. u know. her whole city being plunged underwater)

am #21-22 (honestly relatively little lorena content but these issues completely shape what i think of lorena's relationship with other sub diego residents)

am #25 (babygirl <3 i just like this issue, i think it has some good exploration of sub diego as a whole and how the people feel about it)

am #26-27 (honestly not THAT much of an important arc but. explains how she became officially aquagirl dfhjkadshfkf)

am #28-29 (my girl <333333 shes a superhero AND a hater AND she hates cops. she could not be more perfect)

am #30-31 (probably my favorite arc for her <3 shes a hero <333)

am #38-39 (everyone around her dies.... again!!!!)

sword of atlantis #51 (oughhhh okay so a little context (i might get some details wrong but bear with me) this is the first time she shows up since the end of aquaman, and basically aquaman like. lost all his memories or something and thought someone that looked exactly like him named arthur was actually him... then real arthur died and now lookalike arthur is aquaman. anyways lorena is mourning)

soa #52 (GOD. im obsessed with her story about sub diego in this one. i think about it all the time. i miss sub diego)

soa #56 (shes just adorable in this one im obsessed with her)

soa #57 (babygirl..... she is so sad at the end of this one. but also i need to rec this one bc her getting thrown out a window is one of my favorite panels of her fhdksjfhs)

shes also in teen titans 2003 but warning that this book misunderstands her entire personality and everything about her. this is not lorena but she also has some stuff to do so might as well rec some issues. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES READ THESE BEFORE READING THE ABOVE ISSUES !!!!!!

tt #69 (she has some fun moments here. and some where that is not her at all. but she also beats a guy up here <3)

tt #73-74 (i like that she takes charge at the beginning of this one fhaskdfjhs and she has some rly nice moments ! IGNORE EVERY INTERACTION SHE HAS WITH JAIME)

tt #83-86 (just so we're clear. i hate this one. so much. almost everything about lorena in this arc misunderstands her backstory and her relationship with the ocean and the surface, not to mention she starts flirting with conner because ??? they wanted cassie to be mad about it i guess. HOWEVER she does have some good moments so ill rec it anyway)

okay thats it. i would honestly recommend reading all of aquaman #16-39 just bc she shows up periodically and i think the book is pretty good, and its kinda nice bc when theres an arc i dont like its usually over pretty quick lmao. and i didnt read any of sword of atlantis besides where lorena shows up but all the ones shes in (#51-57) are pretty good.

#im not even an aquaman fan ive never read a single aquaman book that lorena isnt in #but god. the ones shes in slay #i miss her #lorena marquez #dc #reading list #i wish i could tell every single person thats ever read tt03 that thats not lorena at all #they gave her powers she doesnt have and made her flirt with all the guys ?? and just overall gave her an entirely different personality #it makes me so upset #i cant even enjoy her homosexual moments because its with a character i hate :/

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jesamnelovelace · 2 years

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I saw somebody say that Jason wasn’t a member of the Titans outside of joining for one mission, so I felt the need to make a post proving that wrong.

(A quick note before I get into it. While the comment I saw did come out of the discourse about Jason and Roy’s relationship that’s picked up again recently, this post is not meant to argue that Jason should be stealing Dick’s friends at the expense of their personalities and histories. I am also not really a fan of that, so please don’t come at me for that.)

There were actually two missions that we got to see Jason join the Titans for that happened on panel. The first time he joined was when the main Titans characters were all going through it, so Donna called together Wally, Roy, Garth, Hank, and Jason to work together for a mission.

The New Teen Titans (1984) #19

Donna then later invited him to join again. This time it was with some of the main members of the team (Vic, Gar, Joey, and Kory) on a mission to save Dick and Raven.

The New Teen Titans (1984) #26

When the mission ended, Jason left to go back to Gotham, but before he left he said that he wouldn’t mind joining up with them again.

The New Teen Titans (1984) #31

While we never actually get to see him team up with the Titans again on panel, we do get information that proves he continued to team up with the Titans offscreen. We’re also shown that he was listed as a reserve member of the team, meaning that while he was never one of the permanent members, he was still considered to be a Titan.

The New Titans (1988) #52

In the same issue as the panel above we also find out from Danny that he and Jason were close enough that Danny referred to him with a nickname. He also mentions that Jason had been there just a week prior, meaning he did in fact continue to visit even though we never got to see it.

The New Titans (1988) #52

After his death we occasionally see Jason included among the dead Titans including in a memorial at Titans Tower.

JLA/Titans #2

The Titans (1999) #10

(I know you can barely see him, but he is there next to Kole.)

He has even directly referred to himself as a Titan. Both back when he was Robin and when he came back and attacked Tim.

The New Teen Titans (1988) #30

Teen Titans (2003) #29

Donna also still considered Jason as having been a Titan after the attack.

Teen Titans (2003) #29

So Jason was a Titan when he was Robin even if only a reserve member. It would be incorrect to say he shouldn’t count just because a lot of it happened offscreen, because we do have proof that shows he was always considered to be a Titan.

#jason todd #new teen titans #this is actually why I don’t really like Jason and Roy’s relationship the way it is in canon now #there was potential for them to have an interesting relationship because Roy knew Jason when he was small #he and the other titans should see Jason as a little brother figure #but dc ruined it

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stxleslyds · 2 years

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Interesting take. I feel like the Jason doesn't like kid vigilantes thing only shows up in the Titans Tower story where he fights Tim. The only other time he says anything about sidekicks is when he tries to recruit Mia. He wanted to work with her not to stop her. In Lost Days he is happy to help some kid soldiers get revenge so I don't think it is the sidekick aspect he dislikes it is having sidekicks and not allowing them or yourself to do everything you can to stop the worse of the worse.

Hm, yeah, I think this is related to perspective and how we interpret what we are reading.

The Titans Tower story as you put it, never looked to me like “Jason not liking kid vigilantes”, it looked like Jason hated Tim Drake with everything that he had, Jason broke into TT and beat up Tim because he had “replaced” him. Geoff Johns literally came out of nowhere with that narrative, Jason, until that moment was very indifferent about Tim as an individual, his beef was with Bruce and the fact that not only did Bruce not “avenge” Jason by killing the Joker but he also had another child doing the same work he died doing at the age of 15.

In Teen Titans (2003) #29, Jason Todd is written as a petty little bitch, he comes to TT to beat Tim because he took his place as Robin and as a Titan (?), that never translated to me as Jason disliking child vigilantes because that’s not really what is happening and he was also incredibly OOC.

Jason is beating Tim to death just because Tim is Robin and a Titan and Jason feels replaced, he never said that he disliked sidekicks here, and neither did I.

He was just the worst kind of petty for absolutely no good reason.

Then the Mia thing, well, that one is different and I talked about those issues in a post last year, when Jason appeared in the Green Arrow book the events of UtRH had already passed. When he went to star city (?) he only did it to piss of Bruce, he said it himself, and in a sense Jason “tried to recruit” Mia in the same way he did with Onyx, only as a power move. In both instances Jason was playing a game where he acted like he wanted to build a team but in reality, he only wanted to cause trouble and turn people who thought differently than him against Batman (in Onyx’s case) and Oliver (in Mia’s case), which is also said in those GA issues.

At that time Jason had two purposes, survive and make Batman’s life a living hell by appearing everywhere and leaving people thinking whether their no killing route was the best. He wasn’t planning on building a team, he was planning on bringing chaos everywhere he went to piss off the Bat after Bruce had betrayed him at the end of UtRH.

Green Arrow (2001) #72.

When you mention Lost Days you lost me a little bit, because both times that Jason comes across kids in that book he is definitely not “happy to help”, although maybe that’s not exactly what you meant.

The first instance in which Jason comes across kids in that book is when he is training with Egon, a guy who murdered for a living, but also had a very shady side business that Jason found horrifying enough to make him poison Egon. I will leave several panels below.

Jason Todd is first and foremost a child protector.

Red Hood: The Lost Days #3.

And the second time, Jason comes across children in Somalia, he calls them “child soldiers” and he doesn’t help the kids fight, he kills the mercenaries that were there killing children for no reason at all.

At first Jason only said that he “ratted (the mercenaries) out” but later when he is talking with Talia, he says that he stopped them from killing anymore children.

Also, in this issue Talia mentions that half of the people that she sent Jason to ended up dead, and Jason explains why he killed them, two of the people he killed from this panel were people who harmed children.

So once again Jason is proven a child protector which, I believe, kinda makes the trope of Jason having kids/teens as sidekicks a little bit too OOC.

Red Hood: The Lost Days #4.

I don't think that he doesn't like sidekicks, I think that he would never put a kid/teen in danger himself, and he wouldn't put them in the position that he was put when he was 15. Jason could train "his sidekicks" all he wants (he was trained too) but the responsibility of their safety and livelihood would become an insane weight on his shoulders.

It is my belief that Jason would do anything to keep kids/teens away from the vigilante/superhero lifestyle. He fights so kids aren't left alone on the streets and have to fend for themselves, he doesn't want them to live their whole lives seeking justice, he wants them to live their lives as any kid should.

But then again, that's how I see things, we can both be right, like I said at the beginning, it is all about perspective.

#jason todd #red hood #sidekicks #asksss

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ectonurites · 3 years

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Conner Kent in Suicide Squad/the Infinite Frontier era: wtf is going on

Alright lads hello I just need to type out some theories/thoughts about what’s going on with my boy Kon right now. This is more for myself than anything else (just trying to organize my thoughts) but since some of y’all like to hear me talk about comics (and some of this discussion has already been happenin in my inbox) I figured i’d format it and put it on here too! its like 4k words and written over the last few days mostly at 3am. sorry <3

this is basically just me going like

Also fair warning that like, I can be wrong and misinterpret things just as much as anyone else can, like I use panels to support why I think what I do but a lot of this stuff is subjective/complicated to understand so like... in general somethings should be taken with a grain of salt, especially because exactly what changes to the universe were made by Death Metal/Infinite Frontier haven’t been super super clearly defined yet. Also sometimes comic writers make the most random nonsensical shit happen, so I as a fan am also allowed to theorize about random nonsensical shit.

But to start: let’s backtrack!

Many months ago when Infinite Frontier was first announced they dropped some promotional art, and I remember being a little confused because. Well:

(Variant Cover spread for Justice League (2018) #59)

(Variant Cover spread for Superman (2018) #29)

Notice how Conner is back to his Teen Titans 2003 look up top, but in his YJ 2019 look at the bottom? This seemed weird to me! But then they announced that Conner would be part of the Suicide Squad ongoing title, in the T-shirt look, so I wrote this discrepancy off in my brain as ‘oh I guess that cover was just the last hurrah for punk Kon’ and moved on with life.

In Suicide Squad right away we learn he’s very much so there against his will:

(Suicide Squad (2021) #1)

Which corroborates more or less what we were also shown in Future State: Suicide Squad, although admittedly it tells... a slightly different version of the events. When I first saw both of these together I just chalked it up to being a bit inaccurate as it’s shown as a memory in Future State:

(Future State: Suicide Squad #2)

Issue 2 we saw him in action with the Squad, trying to do his best to still be a hero despite the team, but things get a little more interesting in the following issue. It starts off with an account of his history

(Suicide Squad (2021) #3)

This page gave me a few immediate red flags, mostly minor things that had to do with coloring, so more irl problems than things to take seriously in-universe (Kon’s pants are the wrong color in the first Superboy shot, and Bart’s Impulse costume is in Kid Flash colors instead of the correct Impulse ones) but then also it just bugged me the phrasing “he joined Young Justice” when he was a founder of the team, he didn’t join it he made it with Tim and Bart.

But again, chalked that stuff up to just.... writers/artists being inconsistent/unaware of things that they should be aware of, or even Nocturna just not being specific with details. But it did still strike me as a little odd considering the very accurate use of villains in those same shots, Scavenger who was a reoccurring bad guy from Kon’s solo days and showed up basically nowhere else (even holding the Spear of Lono and everything!) and Billy/Harm (Greta’s brother) from Young Justice.

But then a few pages later we got this:

(Suicide Squad (2021) #3)

Which is interesting. My first instinct was to think he’s being drugged w kryptonite or something thats leaving him hazy/out of it, but my thoughts on that have kinda changed, we’ll get there in a bit. But in general the context of ‘something’s wrong’ made the slight discrepancies on some details of his own history make more sense.

I also want to then bring up the next part to this story, the crossover issue in Teen Titans Academy.

(Teen Titans Academy #3)

So a few things. Does it feel weird to anyone else that Conner Kent, a known previous Titan who literally has a framed picture of himself in a case there, would set off alarm sensors like that? Wouldn’t he be... recognized as a Titan not an intruder by their sensors? Interesting! Anyways.

He looks really pained looking at that picture, and sad, and almost frustrated, which ya know makes sense and hurts my heart because he misses them! He misses his friends and being happy.

But, importantly for a criticism I wanna make thats less theory related and more just me bein annoyed at Tim Sheridan, that’s a picture of Conner. Right there. That’s Superboy, on display at Teen Titans Academy, so the people who frequent this building would know who he is and what he looks like and be able to recognize him, he’s even in the same outfit and everything. Alinta recognized him at the end of Suicide Squad #3.

So why does only one person during this big fight then comment on his presence?? Why doesn’t it get a bigger reaction???

(Teen Titans Academy #3)

And after the fight we don’t see any on panel moment of Wallace going up to the staff Titans (who weren’t present for the fight) and saying like “HEY NIGHTWING UHHH SUPERBOY WAS WITH THE SUICIDE SQUAD?” we just see him talking with his friends upset about Crush leaving. We see Alinta talking to them but we don’t see the exact dialogue. So I do just wanna take the writer by the shoulders and shake him a little bit and ask WHY because that just feels like... something you’d wanna address on panel! This is like the first time since joining the squad that Kon’s at all in contact with people from his life before Waller got involved, I feel like not addressing those people’s reactions to it/not discussing it at least a little bit on panel (especially when Conner CAME UP in the previous TTA issue, Dick brought him up and everything!!!) is a really odd choice. Maybe it’ll happen next issue and i’m just impatient, but who knows. Anyways, gripes with Sheridan aside, lets move on.

I wanna bring up how Conner... doesn’t really respond to Wallace’s question? At all? Except to just fight him off, not even an attempt at a ‘Sorry’ or anything? (the ‘Ha! That all you got?!’ seems to be coming from Culebra not Conner, although the placement of the bubble is vague enough it could be that it was supposed to be Conner? but it seems more like what she’d say, especially as she’s grabbing Emiko like that) That just feels weird. It feels off. In general he speaks so little in Suicide Squad #3 and this issue. Tbh it almost feels like he doesn’t really recognize Wallace which I mean I suppose they never exactly met (they would have theoretically during Death Metal, basically all past/present Titans were together for a while during that), but Kon’s been back in existing long enough he’d have a sense of who current heroes are anyways.

But right, so, lots of little things that feel weird... that gets us caught up to the most recently released comics... but in this household we look at solicits as they drop. Which gives us some info on what’s coming up a few months ahead of time, albeit without full context obviously. Issues #4 and #5 don’t mention Conner in their descriptions or show him on the covers at all, because there’s just other plot things going on, so ya know seems things will be quiet for him for a bit.

But then we got the August solicitations and oh BOY it’s a doozey for him! And some things start to kinda connect perhaps!

I want to just take a moment to look at that specific wording. “The teen calling himself Conner Kent” I’m probably reading too much into it but that feels deliberate, like why wouldn’t you just say ‘Conner Kent’? Usually these kinds of descriptions are trying to keep a low word count, not add in extra words that don’t need to be there. It makes it feel like that’s a name he’s using that... doesn’t actually belong to him.

So the theory I want to propose (that has been floating around already) is that based on these covers and the description, and how the Conner we’ve been seeing in Suicide Squad apparently talks about his own personal history like he’s ‘reading a wikipedia entry’ and had little response to people he should be aware of like Wallace and apparently isn’t recognized as a Titan through a bio-scan and also bearing in mind those initial promo arts with two separate looks at the same time for him... I think we're looking at a situation where the Conner in Suicide Squad so far has actually been a clone of original Conner (like... like he’s Match 2.0 or somethin) the whole time, that’s just not aware he’s not the original.

Now that’s the base theory I wanna work with and build off of, but there’s MANY different directions that could go in/ways that could work.

For example, one idea is that the Conner we saw in #1 who was chained up is the original Conner, and he’s been being cloned and held captive, so everything else with Conner in Suicide Squad so far has been this Match 2.0

Another idea could be the original Conner in #1 is also the Conner in #2 who Waller had then commented wasn’t ready during the mission in Arkham and had zapped with a lil Kryptonite, and after that moment she took him off the field because his spirit hadn’t been broken enough to be obedient (as he was a lot quieter in Issue #3 & the TTA crossover compared to #2, and #3 is when the Nocturna thing with the history happened)

Or it could even be original Conner in #1, then in #2 was one clone that wasn’t ‘ready’ that after that point she stopped using him, and switched to a diff clone for #3, because like that first cover did show a LOT of clones. That could be more just ‘artistic interpretation’ or something, covers sometimes do exaggerate/mislead, but it also could indicate we’re looking at a lot of clones.

(Suicide Squad (2021) #2)

With all of those in mind I also wanna bring up this little bit from Future State Suicide Squad:

(Future State: Suicide Squad #2)

Again Future State is a ‘possible future’ so stuff from it isn’t set in stone, but the idea of ‘she still has his YJ 2019 outfit somewhere’ makes me think it could be something along the lines of like, Clone!Conner finds original Conner and frees him and he gets back his YJ outfit, which could lead to like the imagery on that variant cover/the idea from my very first part of this post where I was talking about Kon being shown in both outfits in different places.

Alternatively entirely from all that, another option is that she maybe got ahold of what was needed to clone Kon, but doesn’t even have the original Kon in her possession. (again with the Future State thing, she could be lying since elsewhere in Future State we did also see a copy of YJ 2019 Kon’s costume in one of the Jon-focused Future State comics in a display case 🤷‍♂️) Which could also lead to that confrontation on the variant cover & the promo art thing... and could also explain why we have seen nothing about anyone looking for him, because in that sort of scenario he wouldn’t have even been missing in the first place.

There’s a lot of possibilities! It’s still too early to solidly know anything, but I feel pretty confident we’re entering another cloning related plot with our Clone Boy so it’s... ya know. Clone time. On the one hand it’s annoying because god we have done clone/multiple Kons plots before. We’ve done them so much.

BUT on the other hand, I think it could be interesting to use this situation to tie into some older stuff from pre-reboot that I can see some connections to, because due to Infinite Frontier altering the world and people’s memories it’s all technically fair game storytelling-wise again (and like, the use of Scavenger specifically in that flashback way above, who’s not a super well known villain in general, makes me think maaaaybe the writer did do some of their Kon homework)

Something also just dawned on me that i’m not quite sure what it means but still is worth mentioning: The Conner here in Suicide Squad is back in his Teen Titans Vol. 3 outfit, and his history as he tells it stops during Teen Titans Vol. 3. And doesn’t... mention when he died? It feels like it... stopped before that, because like I feel if he was telling his life history (even the wiki version LMAO) the part where he died and came back would be pretty important to bring up?? And Nocturna specifically says that he didn’t explain how that stuff from TT Vol. 3 then led to him in his current situation. That’s a pretty big gap (like uhhh everything from resurrection until he got lost on Gemworld + all the rest of the Young Justice 2019 stuff?) So like.. there could be something funky going on here that has to do with that.

Similarly when he flashes back in Future State: Suicide Squad to his past it also goes right from Teen Titans Vol. 3 to the current Suicide Squad run? Like I get it’s one page so they can’t show that much, but the fact that there’s now two places that flash back to that same specific time period and nothing past it until the Suicide Squad feels just... noticeable! Not concretely indicative of something, but noteworthy.

(Future State: Suicide Squad #2)

Like...this almost has me thinking maybe it could be something where like, they tampered with his dead body and cloned from that? BECAUSE, for those of you who may not be familiar with how Kon’s resurrection (during Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds) worked, when he came back there was time travel involved! He was brought back to life in the future (like. Legion of Superheroes era) because it was a process that took that thousand or so years to work/heal him (essentially because of his hybrid dna the process that healed Clark when he had died back in Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen in the 90s just took a lot longer, but its the same Kryptonian healing chamber thing) meaning when he came back to the present alive again, his dead body was still also in the present just in it’s process of healing. Meaning especially if we’re bringing back stuff from before the reboot, Kon likely has his dead body just vibing out there while he’s goin around living life 🤷‍♂️

SO them doing something related to that could explain the choice to put him back in the T-shirt (since thats what he wore in the era his brain would be caught up to if we’re relating this to when he died) and why he’d recognize himself in a group photo with Bart, Cassie and Tim but maybe not someone like Wallace who didn’t exist back then. I don’t know, this branch of thought is still half baked. Will maybe come back and elaborate on this later. But I’m now really thinking there might be a connection to the early Teen Titans Vol. 3 era specifically because of it being referenced twice in stuff with this Suicide Squad.

ANYWAYS moving on, this is probably a shot in the dark and I only thought of it because I just was reading 90′s Superboy, but right away when thinking about ‘Amanda Waller’ and ‘Cloning Kon’ I was reminded of some stuff about the circumstances around the first clone that was made of Conner: Match.

(Superboy (1994) #35)

Match was created by an organization called ‘The Agenda’, that was after a while primarily under the control of The Contessa, Lex Luthor’s ex-wife, aided by Amanda Spence who had a personal grudge against Kon bc her dad was Paul Westfield the guy Kon was originally cloned from (before the Lex/Clark retcon). They were the big bad guys of an arc called The Evil Factory in Superboy (where Cadmus personnel got replaced with clones) which also then tied into the Sins of Youth event over in Young Justice (Remember how Match was posing as Superboy for a while there? yeah). After those plot lines finished the Agenda was pretty defeated (Amanda Spence was still out there and came back later but still) and... who got their hands on the remaining Agenda tech?

(Superboy (1994) #87)

Why none other than Amanda Waller herself!

If they re-canonized pieces of this (which also tied into Young Justice which ya know, YJ 2019 was all about re-establishing stuff from YJ even before Death Metal happened soooo) it would totally make sense for Waller to have complete access to the exact technology used to clone Conner before.

Now, a thing to consider here though is what happened to Kon after he’d been cloned that first time, where his DNA got all destabilized by the process (and he needed to go through a procedure with Roxy as a genetic template to keep him together, which was how he got stuck at age 16 for a while). This was something where he was fine for a period of time before the side effects began to kick in. Now, I think it’s worth mentioning that was also back in the days where he was not yet Lex & Clark’s clone, but still Paul Westfield’s. So there could easily be a ‘now that certain Kryptonian genes have kicked in as he got his newer powers it doesn’t destabilize him the same way’ reasoning or something along those lines to avoid this problem. Alternatively, it could be an interesting thing to embrace rather than retcon away, especially if we’ve been seeing Clone Conner in action and Original Conner hasn’t been in our focus, things could be wrong with him that we just don’t know about.

Another branch of thinking that I think is even MORE a shot in the dark but could be interesting (or again even related to what I just said, could be a combo of things) is if this somehow ended up related to those clones that were reverse engineered from the remains of Match from the very end of Teen Titans Vol. 3

(Teen Titans (2003) #99)

All of them were then taken down with Kryptonite and killed in battle (by Rose & Damian)

(Teen Titans (2003) #100)

But like... idk man if Waller got her hands on those corpses or even just the data from Dr. Caligan that he extracted from Match to make them... that could also be a potential way to make some new Conner clones, and that could be why the bio-scan thing at Titans Tower wouldn’t work properly because of the thing he says above about it not being a “complete match’

One thing I don’t think is the case, but has been brought up to me, is stuff with New 52 Kon. I’ve talked extensively about New 52 Kon in recent weeks because I read through all his stuff, but the thing that makes me shy away from him being part of this situation is the fact that... he’s not interchangeable with Kon the way I think some people think he is. He wouldn’t visually be recognized as Original Kon because he is literally on a genetic level a separate person. They’d prob look related, sure, like they’d pass for brothers because they both have Clark’s DNA, but New 52 Kon has Lois’ DNA and Original Kon has Lex’s. New 52 Kon would likely look more like Jon, rather than Kon. Lois specifically commented in an Action Comics issue that Kon had some resemblance to Lex, even. So like, things like Wallace recognizing him or him looking at his own matching reflection alongside the group picture at the Tower... those wouldn’t happen the same way if this was New 52 Kon.

Now I think it coooould theoretically be possible for Waller to have gotten her hands on that future N.O.W.H.E.R.E. cloning tech that had been used to make New 52 Kon, like I wouldn’t rule that out. Because she knows where the remains of their bases are as shown in Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #16-17, and like, Harvest is dead so she could easily just send teams out there to gather shit if she wanted.

Onto some other things I don’t think are actually related but that I was reminded of/wanted to address:

I feel i’d be a bad timkon fan if during all of this discussion of past stories with cloning Kon I didn’t even bring up Tim’s cloning attempt stuff, but I think it would ultimately be unrelated. His tech was stolen from Luthor, and his attempts didn’t succeed because he was trying to build from scratch without Cadmus’ the data about how they altered the DNA from the original process.

(Teen Titans Vol. 3 #34)

Then that initial cover for the annual really reminded me of part of the Hollow Men story from Superboy Vol. 5 just with like... Kon in a room full of copies of himself. I don’t think this story would be related either because it was more magic Tannarak stuff rather than regular cloning, but ya know. It’s the imagery.

(Superboy Vol. 5 #9)

It also really reminded me of the stuff from Hyper-Tension which was hypertime stuff not cloning but again just... visually.

(Superboy Vol. 4 #62)

In general I don’t think we’re EVER gonna see Black Zero or any of these multiverse Superboys again LMAO.

To try to sum up all of this in a way that might make sense here’s kinda a... flowchart of some of my main ideas for what the cloning situation could be/how the logic could work. Again this is borrowing stuff from across continuities because Infinite Frontier means theoretically anything’s fair game. (Also I don’t think I mentioned this earlier but I do mention it in the chart, but I think it’s also reasonable that Waller could get her hands on Cadmus tech if Cadmus is like properly made canon again. She just has funky government connections!)

Also I just now thought of this now several hours after I already made the chart and I don’t wanna remake it so sorry not incorporating it there but I remembered there was also that bit during House of Kent where Clark took Kon to the Hall of Justice and they were running some tests on him, so I’m thinking it’s also possible Waller got ahold of that data/that might be how she found out about Kon in the first place for this timeline. And they indicated that there was something wrong with him there, where he might eventually lose his powers or something, so maybe she tried to do cloning stuff to be able to have a copy of Superboy in his prime or something??? before that started kicking in. I don’t know, just more things to consider:

(Action Comics (2016) #1028)

ANYWAYS in conclusion: there is clone fuckery of some sort happening, I’m curious where it’s gonna go, and I just want Kon to be okay.

If you actually read this uhm. props to you bc this probably makes no sense to anyone but me its just word vomit <3

#this is very long! and disorganized! i am sorry #this doesn't have one theory abt things it has like. many #its basically just brainstorming/spitballing ideas #i could also be entirely off base! with much of this! i just feel i need that disclaimer #grandpa max is god? i go to church now #i need a kon talk tag bc i swear i write more analysis stuff like this for him than anyone else

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nightwingmyboi · 4 years

Text

Dick Grayson and Temper

For whatever reason, Dick’s temper has become one of the main traits that people focus on when looking at Dick’s character. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, since he does have quite the temper, but since it has become one of those essential aspects of his personality for a lot of people, I just wanted to clarify a few things I think get misconstrued?

Certain people take Dick having a temper and equate it with him having anger issues or thin skin. It’s bled into art, text posts, fics...where Dick is described/shown essentially as a petty asshole, someone who has a tendency to overreact and lash out at family and friends, someone who is whiny and always complaining (@bigskydreaming goes a little more into this perception here). I don’t think this is a fair interpretation of Dick’s character at all. There are two main things I feel like people need to keep in mind when thinking about Dick’s temper.

1.) Dick’s infamous temper is, 9 times out of 10, directed at criminals.

Nightwing (1996) #65

When Dick mentions struggling with his temper, he is almost always talking about the anger he feels towards criminals, not loved ones. When he sees people hurt or in danger, especially those closest to him, he gets pissed and can go too far. He often gets angry in defense of his family and those he protects.

Titans Vol. 2 #29

Batman and Robin #12

In fact, one of the biggest examples of his temper is him beating the Joker to death, as a result of the Joker killing Jason and Tim. Like many heroes, Dick struggles with not crossing the line when faced with crime; this doesn’t mean that he is the same way with those he loves.

2.) In most circumstances, Dick has demonstrated excellent control of his anger. So, Dick may have a bad temper...but it usually doesn’t make an appearance unless he is under an immense amount of pressure (and sometimes not even then).

Injustice Gods Among Us #16

Dick’s not a doormat and he can be confrontational if that’s what is needed to get the job done, but he is also known for keeping a cool head under immense pressure and stress. He’s known in the superhero community for resolving conflict and has often been called “the glue” that keeps various teams together. That wouldn’t mesh with the idea that he is constantly losing his temper. In fact, his middle name might as well be de-escalation, because that’s pretty consistently what he does. Look at how he acts in various arguments:

Example #1: While Nightwing is off-world with the Titans, Jason dies. Likely struggling with grief, Bruce doesn’t attempt to contact Dick while he is off world or when he returns. Dick is left to find out through a teammate, Danny Chase. Despite being left in the dark, Dick still goes to the cave to try to support Bruce. He puts his feelings to the side, and doesn’t even bring up the fact that he was hurt by Bruce’s exclusion. Unfortunately, the conversation derails regardless, and Bruce ends up hitting Dick and telling him that it was a mistake to invite Dick into his life.

The New Teen Titans #55

Look at how Dick reacts. Even when Batman hits him and yells extremely harsh things at him, he doesn’t lash out in turn or yell back. He keeps calm and continues to talk to Batman; he likely understands that this is a product of Bruce’s grief and as a result allows his feelings/hurts to go unaddressed.

Example #2 (inspired by @hood-ex post here): Garth loses his temper when he learns that the Titans won’t help him with a problem he’s having. When Robin tries to stop the fight, Garth punches him.

Teen Titans (1966) #28

After he takes the hit, Dick continues to try to keep people from fighting, and in the end, Dick once again puts his bruised feelings to the side and doesn’t say a word of complaint to keep team unity. He still goes and helps Garth with his problem.

Example #3: After Donna’s death, Dick was devastated. He spiraled into depression. In the aftermath, he was stricter and quicker to anger than he would normally be. Even his leadership of the Outsiders was effected, and as a result, Anissa, Black Lightning’s daughter, was seriously hurt. Black Lightning is not pleased; he slams Nightwing against a wall and yells at him.

Outsiders (2003) #16

Even when Dick is emotionally compromised and short tempered, he still isn’t looking for a fight. He doesn’t retaliate when Black Lightning slams him against the wall, and he doesn’t interrupt when Pierce tears into him (for a whole page of the comic). It’s not like Pierce goes easy with his criticism; yet, Dick remains stoic and takes it. He doesn’t say a word of complaint or defense, and he doesn’t lash out. He keeps his temper under control. (Just an fyi for those wondering, but this is definitely one of those times Dick deserved a harsh talking to, lmao, support you Black Lightning!!)

Example #4: The Batfam is fighting a villain known as Mother, who is known for brainwashing people. Anyone could be in her control, so when Tim is acting suspiciously, Dick decides to investigate to ensure that Tim is not a double agent. Dick finds out that Tim secretly kept his family in a hidden location to protect them, and unintentionally brings trouble to their door. On the flip side, Tim gets angry at Dick for sneaking around behind his back and putting his family in danger. Though Dick tries to explain his actions, Tim won’t hear it and instead throws a punch.

Batman and Robin Eternal #5

Even when Tim punches him out of the blue, ironically because he can’t control his temper, Dick just takes the hit and lets him walk away. He doesn’t ever push Tim for an apology, and Tim never gives one. The rest of the series, people give Dick crap for betraying Tim’s trust, and despite Dick’s reasonable concerns being the impetus for his actions, Dick accepts the other’s criticism without complaint.

Examples #5-57: Just think of all the times that Damian insulted Dick and told him he couldn’t cut it and generally was acting like a little shit, when Dick was struggling with Batman’s death and with taking on the cowl and with running Bruce’s life, and Dick still never gave up on Damian and gave him Robin. Very patient, very thick skin.

And I could add even more moments! I don’t mean to go overboard, but the idea is that, over pretty much his entire history, from Robin to Nightwing to Batman and back, there are more times that Dick puts his feelings to the side and lets people yell at him (and basically physically assault him RIP) for the greater good, then times he flies off the handle and loses his temper, especially when compared to other characters in the Batfam. Seeing people say that Dick is secretly an angry asshole when pushed a little or is always blowing things out of proportion and being whiny is just annoying, especially when Dick canonically has worked very hard to keep his cool and mediate in various tense situations, even when he has reason to get offended and retaliate.

And this isn’t me saying that Dick can’t lash out, cause duh he’s a human being and he’s not perfect. He does have a temper and sometimes can say harsh things to those he loves. But, he doesn’t usually lose his cool, and when he does it is usually a surprise. The rarity of Nightwing giving into his temper is part of the reason it is so impactful when he does fly off the handle.

A lot of the panels you see floating around about Dick’s temper are 1) from times he was brainwashed or mentally influenced (Dick yelling at Donna, Alfred, and Joey are all from a single time when he was brainwashed by Brotherblood for example), 2) from times he was in great emotional/mental distress from the deaths of those close to him, or 3) examples of times that Dick is standing up for himself, that I don’t really see as him having a temper? And a lot of those fights/arguments that are shown are not as one sided as tumblr makes them seem, lmao. Either way, most of these times aren’t really representative of his normal behavior or attitude.

In conclusion, Dick isn’t some petty jerk with anger management issues; he’s a human being, who sometimes gets angry and upset like every other human being in the world. He has a temper, but I don’t feel like it should define him in the way and to the extent that it currently does.

P.S. This isn’t me trying to excuse the times that Dick has been nasty and let his temper run away from him, obviously. Like I said, he’s human and he’s made mistakes. But he doesn’t lash out normally or often. I’m just trying to put things in perspective.

#batman is prob the only one who can really make him lose it #and bruce kind of deserves a little talk back in my opinion lmao #plus his temper has literally vanished into thin air #in these rebirth comics #so for people to be making it so integral #is just trying to make Dick out to be a jerk lmao #nightwing #dick grayson #bruce wayne #batman #tim drake #red robin #teen titans #outsiders #temper #dick grayson temper #character analysis #meta

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hood-ex · 3 years

Note

Hi! Thank you for sharing that guide the other day on getting into the batfam comics! Its been very helpful. I was wondering what are your favorite comics with dick/the ones that made you realize he was your favoeite character? Thank you!

Sure, no problemo! I was actually exposed to Dick through comic panels from a variety of comics rather than reading a handful of comics centered around him. Like if you search “Dick Grayson” on Pinterest then you’ll get tons of panels that have some of his best moments, and that’s how I initially got a feel for his character. So, at first, I got to know him that way.

A lot of times there are specific issues within a story that I enjoy, but I don’t always necessarily enjoy the entire story itself. I’ll give you some full story arcs (or stories with a few issues) I enjoy as well as some of the single issues that I quite like. I’ll bold the ones that I really like.

Full story arc favorites:

Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet

Robin: Year One

Nightwing #140-146

Nightwing #147-153

Rebirth Nightwing #35-41

Batman #436-439

Batman: Black Mirror

Batman and Robin: Batman Reborn #1-3

Batman and Robin (Dark Knight, White Knight) #20-22

Full story arc team book favorites:

The Judas Contract from Tales of the Teen Titans #42-44 and it concludes in Tales of the Teen Titans Annual #3.

Nightwing: Old Friends, New Enemies

Teen Titans: Year One

The Titans (1999-2003) #28-29

Single issue favorites:

The New Teen Titans #38

The New Titans #65

The New Titans #71

Batman #416

Batman #688

Robin Annual (1995) #4

Nightwing #25

Nightwing #127

Outsiders (2003) #11

JLA #71

Batman: Gotham Knights #1

Grayson #5

Rebirth Nightwing #42

#i've got more favs but like... my brain fuckin hurts alksjdla #Dick Grayson #comic recs #anon

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kiragecko · 3 years

Text

DC Sidekick Age References

Here’s a dump of all the references I’ve found. Know I’m missing a lot, and quite a few were found on other sites that didn’t give me the most precise info.

If you know of anything else, can correct a mistake you see, or want to discuss comic book aging - please send me an ask, message, or reblog!

?? - means I don’t know where the info is from, “quotes” are direct copies of the wording in the comic

?? Parents died when Bruce was 8

Detective Comics #27 (May 1939) – Batman introduced

Detective Comics #38 (Apr 1940) – Dick is (8 when parents killed/9 when Robin) 12 when he becomes Robin, it's Bruce's 3rd year as Batman

More Fun Comics 73 (Nov 1941) – Green Arrow Introduced

1962 - JLA formed

1964 – Dick teams up with Wally and Garth

Teen Titans 1 (Jan-Feb 1966) – Teen Titans form, Donna is introduced (all 5 are 14ish?)

Detective 359 (Jan 1967) – Babs introduced, has PhD, has graduated

Batman #217 (Dec 1969) – Dick graduates high school, enrolls in University (starts 3 months later)

1971 - Roy discovered using drugs by Ollie and Hal in a drug den (he was trading arrows for drugs), retcon has Wally and Dick discovering him at tower and making him promise to get help

Justice League 116 (Mar-Apr 1975) Charley Parker is 16

Batman Family 10 (Mar-Apr 1977) – Dick is teenager, Babs is 25

Teen Titans 53 (Feb 1978) – Dick, Wally, Donna, Vic all started college at same time

DC Special Series: The Flash Spectacular (May 1978) – Wally graduates high school

New Teen Titans 1 (Nov 1980) – Raven forms New Titans, Gar is 16 during run

New Teen Titans 2 (Dec 1980) – Slade meets team, Grant dies

1981 - Dick drops out of university after 1 semester, he never really was interested

New Teen Titans 20 (June 1982) – Vic turns 19, Donna already is

Tales of the New Teen Titans 2 (July 1982) – Raven turned 18 just before forming Titans

Batman #357 (Mar 1983) – Jason’s first appearance

Detective Comics #526 (May 1983) – Bruce adopts Jason, Dick is there and approving

New Teen Titans 34 (Aug 1983) – Terra turns 16

Batman #368 (Feb 1984) – Dick gives Jason the Robin costume, Jason becomes Robin

Blue Devil(84) – Eddie is 11/12

Tales of the Teen Titans (May 1984) – Joey introduced, Author describes him as 17?

New Teen Titans #39 (Feb 1984) – Dick stops being Robin, Wally quits being a superhero/the team

Tales of the Teen Titans 50 (Feb 1985) – Terry and Donna's wedding (she got married while 19)

New Teen Titans 10 (July 1985) – Kole says she's at least 18

Crisis on Infinite Earths 7 (Oct 1985) – Supergirl dies in Superman’s arms after mostly destroying the Anti-Monitor, who has to flee reality

New Teen Titans 18 (Mar 1986) – Dick turns 20 (“Dick Grayson celebrates his birthday away from home with a traditional Tamaranean feast.” (While sulking because Kory got space-married))

New Teen Titans 20 (May 1986) – Roy locates baby Lian, Terry Long is 29

?? Roy is 22(when he gets Lian)

Batman #404 - Batman Year One (Feb 1987) – Bruce is 25, spent 12 years training, became Batman at 26, Barbara Gordon is pregnant, her and Jim move to Gotham

Detective Comics #571 (Feb 1987) – we see Bruce’s fear gas induced vision of Jason’s tombstone (birth: 1974 – death: 1986, so he’d be 12)

Secret Origins 13 (April 87) – 15 years ago, it was Dick’s 5th birthday. Soon after tenth birthday, parents are killed. [Set during New TT 18])

Batman #409 (July 1987) – Jason becomes Robin (In Detective Comics, Jason has been Robin the whole time, but is still being wwritten with Pre-Crisis personality)

Flash 1 (June 1987) – Wally turns 20

New Teen Titans Ann 3 (Nov 1987) – Danny Chase is 13 and introduced

Batman #416 (Feb 1988) – Dick in Gotham, meets the new Robin on patrol. Confronts Bruce later, says he was ‘fired’ less than a year ago (since then he was briefly in college), makes Bruce admit he missed him. Dick finds Jason again, expose the drug dealers, and Dick gives Jason his old costume (symbolically, since Jason already has one) and a phone number, Dick was Robin for 6 years

Batman #427 (Winter 1988) – Jason dies

Batman #436, Batman: Year Three (Aug 1989) – 2 years since Dick stopped being Bruce’s sidekick (When he became Nightwing? Or when he quit?), parents died 10 years earlier

Batman #441, A Lonely Place of Dying (Nov 1989) – Tim 13, was 7 when Dick’s parents died

Robin #1 (Jan 1991) – Tim debuts as Robin

New Titans 84 (March 1992) – Joey dies

Deathstroke, the Terminator #15 (Oct 1992) – Rose introduced

Team Titans 3 (Nov 1992) – Robert Long is born

Adventures of Superman 500 (June 1993) – Kon appears and escapes from Cadmus with Newboy Legion, John Henry Irons first appearance, Eradicator and Cyborg Superman also appear for first time

Batman: BTAS: Robin’s Reckoning (1993) - 'Richard 'Dick' Grayson: Age 10'

Detective Comics 668 (Nov 1993) – Tim gets license (because dad is disabled) even though he hasn’t turned 16 yet, gets beat up by Jean-Paul

Flash 92 (July 1994) – Bart aged to 14

?? Shortly after Knight’s End – Tim is 15 and in the 10th grade

Flash 0 (Oct 1994) – Wally is 23

Damage 1(94) – Grant is 16

Deathstroke, The Terminator Annual 4 (Aug 1995) – Rose is 14, “What would that do to a kid? A fourteen-year-old girl whose father is an assassin she’s never met?”

Wonder Woman 105(95) – Cassie is 14

Tempest 1(96) – Garth spends many months in other dimension

Aquaman 20 (May 1996) – Garth aged 3-4 years in other dimension, now older than other Titans

Teen Titans 1 (Oct 1996) – Argent, Risk, Joto, Prysm all turn 16(they were conceived by seed things on same day)

Superboy Annual 2 – to Kon: “Happy birthday, Kid - - number one in a long successful series, we hope.” “He will effectively remain sixteen years old - - forever!”

Green Lantern 82(97) – Robert Long is 3

Wonder Woman 121(97) – Terry and Robert die

Secret Origins Giant 1(98) – Bart is “Three. Fifteen. Depends.”, “you’re almost 15, Tim.”

Titans 5(99) – Donna is 23

Titans(99) – Lian is 4

Sins of Youth(99) – Kon 16, aging normally again

Aquaman 63 (Jan 2000) – Future Garth tells granddaughter Donna about Cerdian being born (think this is his weird birth issue)

Wonder Woman Secret Files (2002) – „Wonder Girl is a precocious outgoing 15-year-old named Cassandra „Cassie“ Sandsmark.“

Bruce Wayne: Murderer (2002) – Oracle says Tim is 15

Batgirl #37 (April 2003) – “Cain said ... today was ... my birthday.”

Batgirl #39 (June 2003) – “I see an eighteen-year-old girl, who’s out of her depth.” (Babs about Cass)

Robin #116 (Sept 2003) – Dana: “Oh, I’m so glad we’ll all be together on Thursday ... !” Tim: “Why? What’s Thursday?” Jack: “Yeah. What’s Thursday?” Dana: “Wait a minute – seriously? Tim: “Yeah. Tell. Us.” Dana: “It’s nothing – never mind. Just leave your schedules open for a nice family dinner.”| Jack: “Dana, what’s – “ Dana: “Shh! Thursday ... the 19th of July ... ?” Jack: “Um ... oh! Right!” | Steph: “So – Thursday!! Are you excited? Got any ideas for it, yet? ... Tim ... ?” [Tim is asleep.] | [Ives and Steph come over, with pizza that says “Happy B-Day Tim.”] Ives: “Sixteen spankings – get that boy up!!” | Dana says: “I remember when I was in 11th grade.” | he also gets the first ‘clue’ for Bruce’s ‘birthday present.’

Teen Titans 1 (Nov 2003) – Gar is 19, Is this Joey’s return?? (He’s puppeting Slade)

Teen Titans ½ (2004) – Rose’s early years, with a ‘6 years ago’ flashback, she was raised in a brothel her mom ran, tutored, never allowed the outside world, but had relationships with kids her age

Detective Comics #790 (Mar 2004) – Jason’s 18th birthday “he would have been 18 today”

Teen Titans 8 (April 2004) – Raven looks 'barely older' than Cassie

TEEN TITANS #1/2 [2004]: The flashback panels totally sync up with my age theories; Flash to 10 years ago: Dick Grayson’s parents die. Flash to 6 years ago: Rose Wilson is schooled at home by her mother, Lili. Flash to 5 years ago: Ravager I is killed. Flash to 3 years ago: Slade is forced to kill Jericho. Flash to 2 years ago: Cadmus attempts to clone Superman. Flash to 18 months ago: Rose deals with the death of her mother. Flash to one week ago: Bart Allen is shot by Slade.

Identity Crisis 4 (Dec 2004) –(Tim still 16)

Green Arrow 47(05) – Mia is 17

Return of Donna Troy 3(05) – Cassie barely 16

Nightwing: Year One(05) – Dick is 26

Batgirl #65 (Aug 2005) – Cass decides to figure out if Shiva is her mom, Jason and Cass roughly the same age

Flash(05/06) – Wally is 26

?? Robin #136 – Tim still 16 ???

Detective Comics #868 (Oct 2010)– Kate is 32 years old??

One Year Later(Mar 06)

Flash 1(06) – Bart 4 years older(20?)

Blue Beetle 2 (June 2006) – Find out Jaime was in space/a pocket dimension for One Year Later

?? Just prior to 52 (July 2006-July 2007)– told Tim is 17 (long before he’s also 17 in Red Robin, 52 is 1 year long)

Teen Titans 42 (Feb 2007) – Eddie is 17

Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds 3-4 (Apr-June 2009) – Bart and Kon back, same as when died

Batman 677 (July 2008) – Batman over 30

Batman: Battle for the Cowl (May-July 2009) – Damian is 10, Ends with Dick and Damian becoming Batman and Robin

Brave & The Bold 2 (May 2007) – Kara is 17, “You have food in the refrigerator older than her, Hal. Who are you, Ollie? No bad thoughts. She’s seventeen.”

Batgirl #1 (Oct 2009) – Steph starting college

Batgirl #7 (Apr 2010) - Damian is "what happens when you work with a 10-year-old."

Red Robin #12 (July 2010) – Tim spent “a few months” looking for evidence before returning to Gotham, becomes emancipated minor

Detective Comics #871 (Jan 2011)– Mention that Dick and Babs went to prom together

Red Robin #25 (Sept 2011) – Tim “and you are only 17”

The Batman Files (Oct 2014) – Jason was 15 at death (seen on death certificate)

?? Rebirth Young Justice series – Cassie: “didn’t mean to end up back in high school feeling - - like I did back when I went to high school.” Later, she says she’s in Metropolis “Working. Going to school in the fall.” So she’s probably starting college.

?? Bart in some Rebirth comic: “Am I six? Am I nineteen? That’s a really freaky thing, right?”

?? At some point: Donna says shes a little older than Kyle

#gecko's lists #dc comics #teen titans #young justice #about 3/4 of these can be compiled into something that makes sence #*sense #but choosing which 3/4 is tricky

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northoftheroad · 4 years

Text

Dick and Tim – brothers in arms

So I got this ask. And it’s a good thing I got it the first night of my summer vacation, and the weather hasn't been great ;-)

Once I started digging for comics with both Tim and Dick, I found several that I've never read. I got the impression Anonymous would like a complete list, so I just kept going. But this means I don't know if they even interact in some of the books, or if they make "blink and you miss it" guest appearances.

I'm sorry if they, by any chance, was asking for reading recommendations for good Dick and Tim moments and not The Complete List... Looking at the number of comics here that I haven't read/can't remember, I'm not really qualified to answer that. But if I had to try, I would mention:

A Lonely Place of Dying

The New Titans #65

All issues of Nightwing vol 2 with Robin as a guest star, including Nightwing Annual #1 but excluding Annual # 2.

Showcase '93 #11-12

Knightfall Prodigal

Robin vol 2 #10, (DickRobin and TimRobin!) 175

Young Justice vol 1 #22

Teen Titans vol 3 #6

Bruce Wayne – Murderer and Fugitive

Birds of Prey #19

Batman: Gotham Knights # 8-11, 45

Red Robin #11-14

Batman: Gates of Gotham

That being said. Here is, as far as I can find, every comic where both Dick Grayson and Tim Drake have made an appearance (pre-Flashpoint):

Batman vol 1 #436. By Marv Wolfman, art Pat Broderick and John Beatty.

Batman # 436. (Tim's first appearance, in the circus audience the day Dick's parents were killed.) (1989)

A Lonely Place of Dying. Batman #440-442, New Titans #60-61. (When Tim tries to talk Dick into becoming Robin again but ends up wearing the Robin suit himself to help Batman and Robin.) (1990)

The New Titans #64 (1990)

The New Titans #65. By Marv Wolfman, art Tom Grummet and Al Vey.

The New Titans #65. (Tim turns up at Dick's place to learn what it is to be Batman's partner.) (1990)

Batman vol 1 #455 (1990)

Batman: Shadow of the Bat #1-2 (1992)

Superman: The Man of Steel #20 (1993)

Superman vol 2 #76 (1993)

Batman vol 1 #500 (1993)

New Titans #100 (1993)

Showcase '93 #11-12 (1993)

Justice League of America #70 (1993)

Bloodbath #1-2 (1994)

Batman vol 1 #510 (1994)

Robin vol 2 #0, 8 (1994)

Robin vol 2 #10. By Chuck Dixon, art Tom Grummett and Ray Kryssing.

Robin vol 2 #10 (DickRobin meets TimRobin during Zero Hour. DickRobin is also seen in a panel in Batman vol 1 #511 and Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #4 .) (1994)

Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #1-3 (1994)

Detective Comics #676-677 (1994)

Batman: Shadow of the Bat #29-30 (1994)

Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #62 (1994)

Knightfall Prodigal (Dick's first longer stint as Batman. And he takes care of Tim and the Manor on his own!) In Batman #512-514, Batman: Shadow of the Bat #32-34, Robin # 11-13, Detective Comics #679-681. (1994-1995)

Batman vol 1 #515 (1995)

Detective Comics #686 (1995)

Robin vol 2 #23 (1995)

Green Arrow vol 2 #101 (1995)

Contagion (Detective Comics #696, Batman vol 1 #529, Batman: Shadow of the Bat #49, Batman vol 1 #533, Azrael vol 1 #16, Robin vol 2 #28, Catwoman vol 2 #31) (1996)

The Final Night #2-3 (1996)

Robin vol 2 #29, 32-33 (1996)

Catwoman vol 2 #36 (1996)

Batman: Shadow of the Bat #53-54 (1996)

Detective Comics #698-701 (1996)

Marvel versus DC / DC versus Marvel #2 (1996)

Nightwing vol 2 # 6. (Tim and Dick talk and fight crooks.) (1997)

Batman: Bane (1997)

Ningtwing Annual #1. By Devin Grayson, art Greg Land and Bob McLeod.

Nightwing vol 2 Annual #1. (When Dick fake-marries a girl to investigate if she has murdered her previous husbands.) (1997)

Genesis #1 (1997)

Robin vol 2 #47-48 (1997)

Detective Comics #721, 724 (1998)

Nightwing vol 2 # 20. (Part of Cataclysm.) (1998)

Robin vol 2 #53 (1998)

Nightwing vol 2 # 25. (Tim and Dick talk and ride on train roofs. Dick has decided to become a cop.) (1998)

Batman 80-page Giant #1 (1998)

Brotherhood of the fist (Detective Comics #723, Robin vol 2 #55, Nightwing vol 2 # 28, Green Arrow 3 #135) (1998)

Batman: Bane of the Demon #4 (1998)

Batman vol 1 #554, 556, 560 (1998)

Detective Comics #727-729 (1998-1999)

JLA/Titans: Technis Imperative (1998-1999)

DC Universe Holiday Bash #3 (1999)

Batman 80-page Giant #2 (1999)

Young Justice: Secret Files and Origins #1 (1999)

Batman: Day of Judgment (Zombies...) (1999)

Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #120 (1999)

Robin vol 2 #71 (1999)

Young Justice vol 1 #7 (1999)

Batman and Superman: World's Finest #10 (2000)

No Man's Land. (Robin vol 2 #67, Batman vol 1 #562, Detective Comics #741, Batman: Shadow of the Bat #95, Batman: Legend of the Dark Knight #120, 126, Azrael: Agent of the Bat #56) (1999-2000)

Detective Comics #741 (2000)

Robin vol 2 #74, 76, 82 (2000)

Superman Y2K #1 (2000)

Batman: Gotham Knights #10. By Devin Grayson, art Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez and Rober Robinson.

Batman: Gotham Knights #10-11 (2000)

Batman: Outlaws 1-3 (2000)

Young Justice vol 1 #22 (2000)

Birds of Prey vol 1 #19 (2000)

JLA: Secret Files #3 (2000)

The Hunt for Oracle. (Birds of Prey vol 1 #20-22. Nightwing vol 2 #46.) (2000)

Superboy vol 3 #74 (2000)

Young Justice: Sins of Youth #1 (2000)

Young Justice: Sinds of Youth Secret Files # 1 (2000)

Titans #12 (2000)

Green Lantern: Circle of Fire #1 (2000)

Batman: Gotham Knights #1 (2000)

Harley Quinn #6 (2001)

Birds of Prey # 27 (2001)

Catwoman vol 2 #90 (2001)

Young Justice: Our World's at War #1 (2001)

World's Finest: Our World's at War #1 (2001)

Joker: Last Laugh. (The Joker "jokerize" a number of metahuman villains. In the later part, Joker taunts Nightwing with that he has killed Tim, just as he did Jason. Dick loses it and punches Joker to death, but Batman turns up and resuscitates Joker). (2001)

Harley Quinn #11-12 (2001)

Robin vol 2 #86, 95 (2001)

Gods of Gotham. (Wonder Woman #166-167.) (2001)

Wonder Woman vol 2 #175 (2001)

Nightwing vol 2 #63. (The aftermath of Joker: Last Laugh, where Dick is too depressed to work as Nightwing. Robin and Blue Beetle take his place in Blüdhaven this issue, so they don't actually meet.) (2002)

Azrael: Agent of the Bat #94 (2002)

Young Justice vol 1 #40 (2002)

Birds of Prey vol 1 #37. (2002)

Batman/Nightwing: Bloodborne (2002)

Batman: Gotham Knights #26. By Devin Grayson, art Roger Robinson and John Floyd.

Bruce Wayne: Murderer and Bruce Wayne: Fugitive (Batgirl vol 1 #27, Nightwing #68-69, Batman: Gotham Knight #26, 28, 30, Birds of Prey vol 1 #40, 43, Batman #600, 605.) (Bruce is accused of murder and refuses to defend himself, and eventually escapes and intends to drop the identity of Bruce Wayne. Dick refuses to believe that Bruce can be a murderer and it causes a bit of friction with Tim.)

Batman: Gotham Knights #32-36 (2002-2003)

Batman: Gotham Knights #38, 42, 46 (2003)

Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day # 1-3 (2003)

Detective Comics #782 (2003)

JLA/JSA: Virtue & Vice (2003)

Batman vol 1 #615 (Part of Hush) (2003)

Robin vol 2 #108-110, 118 (2003)

Batman: Family # 6-8 (2003)

Teen Titans/Outsiders Secret Files (2003)

JLA: Welcome to the Working Week (2003)

Identity Crisis # 1 (2004)

Robin vol 2 #120 (But not really – the issue is about how Tim has been stalking his friends, imagining them as traitors, including Dick.) (2004)

Robin vol 2 #125 (2004)

Teen Titans vol 3 #6. By Geoff Johns, art Mike McKone and Marlo Alquiza.

Teen Titans vol 3 #6 (2004)

Batgirl vol 1 # 46, 50 (2004)

Superman/Batman #5, 13 (2004)

War Games. (Nightwing vol 2 #97-98, Batman vol 1 #631-634, Detective Comics #799, Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #183-184, Gotham Knights #57) (2004)

Detective Comics # 800 (2005)

Teen Titans vol 3 # 21-25 (2005)

Outsiders vol 3 #25 (2005)

Teen Titans/Outsiders Secret Files (2005)

Nightwing vol 2 # 110. By Devin Grayson, art Phil Hester and Ande Parks.

Nightwing vol 2 #110. (During a period when Dick left the Nightwing identity.) (2005)

Infinite Crisis. (2005-2006)

Action Comics # 841-843 (2006)

Adventures of Superman #648 (2006)

Nightwing vol 2 Annual # 2. (I honestly don't recommend this, but in the spirit of making a complete list... Tim is visible in two panels, overlapping with Infinite Crisis where Dick almost dies. Otherwise, it's a retelling of the revamped history of Dick and Barbara, including some things that no-one who likes Dick Grayson would agree is in-character.) (2007)

Teen Titans vol 3 #43 (2007)

Gotham: Underground # 1 (2007)

Wonder Woman Annual vol #1 (2007)

Countdown #43 (2007)

52 #30 (2007)

JLA: Classified #34 (2007)

Robin vol 2 #156 (2007)

Shadowpact #10 (2007)

Tales of the Sinestro Corps: Superman-Prime #1 (2007)

Nightwing vol 2 #142. By Peter J Tomasi, penciller Rags Morales.

Freefall (Nightwing vol 2 # 140–146). (One of the very best story arcs of any Nightwing comic. It has gruff Bruce, brotherly bonding, Nightwing and Robin infiltrating an island...) (2008)

Batman: Underground # 6-7 (2008)

Green Latern vol 4 #25 (2008)

Titans vol 2 #1 (2008)

Robin vol 2 #178 (2008)

Batgirl vol 2 #1 (2008)

The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul. (Robin vol 2 #169, Nightwing vol 2 #138-139, Detective Comics #839). (2007-2008)

DC Special: Cyborg #2-5 (2008)

Robin vol 2 # 175. (Some fun panels with flashbacks with Dick and Tim.) (2008)

Batman vol 1 #675, 678, 681 (2008)

DC Universe: Lats Will and Testament #1 (2008)

Final Crisis #3 (2008)

Detective Comics #847 (2008)

Batgirl vol 2 # 5-6 (2009)

Superman/Batman #55 (2009)

Detective Comics #850 (2009)

Nightwing vol 2 # 151. (The issue ends with some family time with Dick, Tim and Alfred.) (2009)

Nightwing vol 2 # 153. (Last issue, Dick moves from New York to Gotham and Wayne Manor.) (2009)

Superman #682 (2009)

Teen Titans vol 3 #75 (2009)

Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5 (2009)

Robin vol 2 #181, 183 (2009)

Batman vol 1 #686 (2009)

Battle for the Cowl # 1-3. (Jason intends to become the Batman "Gotham needs". When Tim can't convince Dick to take up the cowl, he dresses up as Batman himself to fight Jason. In the end, Dick defeats Jason – and becomes Batman.) (2009)

Batman: Blackest Night #1-3 (2009)

Red Robin 1 # 1, 4 (2009)

Batman vol 1 #697, 702, 703 (2010)

Batman: Gates of Gotham #13 (2010)

Red Robin # 11-15 (2010)

Superman/Batman #76 (2010)

Teen Titans vol 3 #88-89 (2010)

Batman: Orphans #1-2 (2011)

Birds of Prey vol 2 #10 (2011)

Gotham City Sirens # 22 (2011)

Secret Six vol 3 #36 (2011)

Batman: Gates of Gotham #1-5 (2011)

Batman vol 1 #708-709 (2011)

Detective Comics #872, 874, 877, 880, 881 (2011)

Red Robin # 22, 23, 26 (2011)

I'm going to skip post-Flashpoint because, well, there's hardly anything there. The worst thing with Flashpoint/New 52, in my opinion, was that it destroyed relationships between characters who used to be family, but ended up hardly knowing or even liking each other. :-(

Detective Comics #975. By James Tynion IV, art Álvaro Martínez and Raúl Fernández.

The only panel worth mentioning with Dick and Tim is from DC #975. Yes, it's sad – one of the best brotherly relationships in DC turned into dust. Here's to hoping future writers will pick up on their wonderful dynamic at some time.

(The pictures in the header are from: Red Robin #12, Young Justice vol 1 #22, Showcase ‘93 #12, Batman #441, Nightwing vol 2 #6, 25.)

#Dick Grayson #Tim Drake #Robin #Nightwing #Red Robin #Batman

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