#love is science ep 13
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tell me your favorite season/ of supernatural. it’s for science
i’d love to hear your thoughts. tag comment reblog reply etc i’m here for you. we’re all locked deep in the pit together babes
#spn#spn polls#supernatural#supernatural polls#dean winchester#sam winchester#castiel#destiel#sorry for breaking up gamble era i consider s6 good gamble and s7… not good lmao#that said s4+5 sweep!!
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Spring Grab Bag Part 1: Genre Shows
And we're back! This week we're talking about all of the shows that blended other genres with BL, including mystery, horror, and science fiction. Because only NiNi and Ginny watched everything, we brought Shan and Ginny back to the booth to cover all of the shows. Today we're talking about how Playboyy failed us, 7 Days Before Valentine landed in a specific niche, our reactions to Dead Friend Forever, and the different things we walked away with from Love for Love's Sake.
Timestamps
The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.
00:00:00 - Welcome
00:01:15 - Grab Bag Part 1: Genre Shows
00:02:31 - Playboyy the Series
00:18:42 - 7 Days Before Valentine
00:29:35 - Dead Friend Forever
00:50:03 - Love for Love’s Sake
01:13:39 - Outro
The Conversation Transcripts!
Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.
We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.
Please send our volunteers your thanks!
00:00:00 - Welcome
NiNi
Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.
Ben
And there it is. I’m Ben.
NiNi
I’m NiNi.
Ben
And we’re your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.
NiNi
Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.
Ben
We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.
NiNi
And I review from a romance and drama lens.
Ben
So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…
NiNi
If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…
Ben
And if you generally just love simping…
NiNi
There is a lot of simping on this podcast…
Ben
We are the show for you!
00:01:15 - Grab Bag Part 1: Genre Shows
NiNi
We're literally doing it live, Ben. [Ben laughs]
Shan
Great start. [Ginny and NiNi laugh]
NiNi
We’re keeping that in! We're absolutely keeping that in! [Shan and Ginny laugh]
Go on ahead, Ben.
Ben
And we're back! This week we are doing our Grab Bag episode. We will be talking about quite a few shows. But first, we have guests.
NiNi
Say ‘hi’ Ginny and Shan. Say ‘hi,’ Ginny.
Ginny
Hello!
NiNi
Say hi, Shan.
Shan
Hi, people!
NiNi
Like Ben said, we're here to do a grab bag. Actually, we're here to do two grab bags. It's a two-parter, fun times. The first part, we're gonna talk about a bunch of genre shows. It's gonna be fun. We're gonna have a good time. It's always a good time when Ginny and Shan are with us.
Ben
Today we are talking about Playboyy the Series, 7 Days Before Valentine, Dead Friend Forever, and Love For Love's Sake. You may use the timestamps we provide to jump to your relevant section.
NiNi
Look at Ben being a good cruise director. I love it.
00:02:31 - Playboyy the Series
Ben
We begin with Playboyy the Series. Since I did not watch this show, NiNi or Ginny, would you like to describe Playboyy for the people, or do you want me to describe it based on my three episodes’ experience?
NiNi
I feel like this is all you, Ginny, go.
Ginny
Playboyy is a show that tried to be about the complex lives of sex workers and people exploring new thresholds of kink, and instead was simply a hot mess that devolved into several different directions. Did not say what it intended to say—or perhaps intended to say horrible things, we’re not clear on that—and disappointed nearly everybody. How's that?
Shan
Very well done.
NiNi
That is it in a nutshell. Ginny and I watched this to the end. Shan quit. Ben quit way earlier.
Shan
I wanna just give myself credit for hanging in there for a long ass time. I think I made it all the way to, like, episode 9 or 10 before I had to stop.
Ben
I'm just gonna own it right away. I quit at the end of episode 3. I said this is not for me, and I have nothing nice to say. I'm gonna just leave now.
NiNi
You really did. We're here to talk about the genre BLs of the season. And Playboyy technically counts as a, I guess, murder mystery? But ugh. Okay, I'm invoking The Shipper.
Shan
[gasps] Wow.
NiNi
I know we said we're never going to talk about this again, but I am invoking The Shipper.
Ben
Proceed.
NiNi
What a hot fucking mess this was. This show wanted to be about so much and in the end ended up being about nothing. It's offensive. It's sensationalist. I found it bad in a particularly banal, uninteresting way, and I'm mostly upset because when it started—it wasn't great, but it had some ideas. And then those ideas just completely fell by the wayside.
Listen, guys, I am the sex in story person. This was right up my alley. I don't know if you've ever seen the phenomenal classic Shortbus. Ginny was like, ‘this is giving me Shortbus,’ and I was like, ‘ohh tell me more, I’m seeing it.’ That was maybe episode 4, and by episode 6 I was like, I don't know that it's giving Shortbus.
I thought it was saying something about sex that it actually wasn't saying because in the end it's all about monogamy and the power of love. Which, yeah, okay, it could absolutely be about that. But that's not what it was sold as. I can't even continue on it. Ginny, you have to take over for me, it's just bad. I don't like it.
Ginny
What you said is key because it wasn't sold as being about monogamy and the power of love. And it's fine for a show to be about that, but if a show is going to give you a bunch of seamy underbelly, kink, sex work, highly stigmatized sexual topics, and then it's gonna come around and being like, but actually monogamy and the power of love is what it's all about, then you are only further stigmatizing those topics. If you put them in, and then you don't land on a positive note with those topics, you're just reinforcing what everybody already thinks about them.
That is not what the show was sold to us as, and I'm furious about it because I want to see more material that deals honestly with some of the more difficult sexual topics and the more controversial areas of sexuality. This show promised us that, and then it ended up being like, ‘buuut if you're in true love, then all problems are solved, and the kinkiest people are somehow also the evilest, oops, we don't know how that happened.’ And it's just infuriating.
NiNi
I'm not even gonna get into what Playboyy is actually about, because in the end, it doesn't matter. I'm just gonna be straight. There are people who enjoyed this. I was not one of those people.
Ben
I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask so we can unpack some stuff here. Let's go around the table, starting with Shan.
When we all signed up to watch Playboyy originally, what were you hoping for based upon the initial promotional materials?
Shan
Oh, this is such a loaded question. Now I have to invoke Only Friends.
So, Playboyy and Only Friends share a writer. Only Friends, as was very thoroughly discussed on this podcast, also ended with a message reinforcing monogamy and the power of love in a show that claimed to be about something else. And so I went into Playboyy, actually really eager to see another work from this screenwriter, because I wondered if maybe some other things had happened on that show that got in the way of this message that he has been claiming to be trying to put out in the world.
And so I expected, based on the promotional materials, based on the way the folks behind the show were talking about it, I expected this to be very much a sex and kink positive show, very much a show exploring the many different ways that sex and sexual relationships can evolve, can look, trying to also shine some light on the lives and experiences of sex workers. All of that was part of the promotion of the show, alongside the murder mystery aspect. It was never clear to me going in how much about each of those things the show would be. It seemed to be trying to tackle a lot, so I was interested to see how it would weave those things together. And it just didn't really, and it didn't do a lot of those things it was claiming to be doing.
Ben
What about you, Ginny?
Ginny
Very similar to Shan, I expected and hoped for a lot of showcasing of sexual diversity, and as NiNi said, I was hopeful in the first episodes. She and I hung on so long trying to defend what the show might be trying to do. It did look like it was trying to show somebody who was averse, maybe to touch, maybe was asexual, maybe had trauma, we weren't clear. That was an interesting thing to explore. People in sex work for various different reasons. People who were very clear about their kinks and interests.
And I was hoping for a mature, in-depth exploration that didn't treat sex itself like it was this shocking new frontier, that sort of accepted this is something that's a part of many people's lives and can be treated with seriousness and playfulness at the same time. I did not expect the plot to hold together because there were simply way too many characters, but I at least wanted the core messaging and character development around sexuality to be consistent and interesting and positive. And the longer the show went on, the worse it got in all of those respects.
Ben
So going in, I was expecting there to be some really fun examination about masculine sexuality, and then very quickly I realized the show was doing porn setups as basically just a joke? They weren't really doing with that what we thought they might be. Like, they're introducing porn setups to talk about the inherently artificial nature of porn and the lack of genuine connection happening for men who are projecting their expectations of sex onto the false notions they might be getting from adult content. And that is not what happened. At all, so. I left very quickly because I was like, I don't need this. And I thought their sex ed 101 messages were deeply muddled by some of their own unfortunate choices.
Speaking of unfortunate choices, let's go around the table again. What was the unfortunate choice that this show made [laughs] that pushed you over the edge and either quit it or decided you hated it by the end?
Shan
I gave it a long time. I really tried with this show. I tried to read some of these deeper themes and messages that both makers of the show and people watching the show were claiming were embedded in the work, and I couldn't find it. I think it was kind of a slow trickle for me of things that just kept adding up, but what might have really been the snapping point for me was what they did with Zouey's storyline. Someone who was maybe sex averse or sex repulsed. I was very much looking forward to development of that as he fell in love with somebody and was trying to work through that. The way that the show resolved that storyline—his falling in love with somebody just made it go away. He just suddenly was fine with sex one day, just like that. That's all it takes, apparently. And then even further down the line in the show, they undid it even further by completely retconning his entire issue and changing the source of it from the beginning.
But that moment when they just showed him just suddenly, magically being fine with sex through the power of love after what had felt like a setup of a serious sexual dysfunction issue that he wanted to work through, it just felt so disrespectful to me. It was a moment where I was like, ‘Oh, nothing this show is doing matters. It doesn't take any of it seriously. I was silly to trust that it did.’ That was just kind of it for me. I was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm out.
Ben
Ginny?
Ginny
There wasn't one moment. It was just a slow decay of trust and interest over time. I think the storyline between First and Soong—first of all, it was badly acted.
Ben
Is First the thermometer boy?
Ginny and Shan
Yes. [both laugh]
Ben
Yeah, that's—spoiler alert!
Shan
Was that your moment, Ben?
Ben
—that's why I left. [laughs]
Ginny
I hung in with them well past the thermometer. That story could have been really interesting about the complexities of a dom-sub relationship that also has a very real financial angle. They keep being drawn to each other for reasons I did not understand, and the show did not really justify. It could have been such an interesting exploration of a really complex power dynamic, and instead it was just two people taking turns being mean to each other and then senselessly coming back to each other with no kind of nuance or complexity. So frustrating.
Ben
NiNi, did you have a breaking moment with this show that you recall?
NiNi
There are so many moments where I had to push through, like the toe sucking incident, I had to push through. There was a dog food incident, I had to push through that, as well. When I was over it, though, was, the main character is supposedly pretending to be his twin brother, and there were hints along the way that maybe there was no twin and there was maybe a disassociation happening there as this person tries to come to terms with their self-image in the wake of having kinds of sexual experiences that he enjoyed but didn't think he should. And there was a lot to unpack there. But then they showed the twin brother’s dead body, and I was just like, ‘Okay, no, this show is shit.’ I was over it at that point.
I stayed till the end because as I said to everybody, I wanted my complaints to be specific and comprehensive. But yeah, that was it for me in the end. The fact that they sold it as some sort of psychological deep dive and it ended up being not even a bog standard murder mystery with a cartoon villain.
Ben
I'd like to follow up with something Ginny mentioned in her response. You talked about how this show was a slow betrayal of trust for you. Let's talk about this creative team.
So with Cheewin and Den, this is their second outing together. How are we feeling about Den and Cheewin as a creative duo?
Ginny
I don't trust Den anymore, which is a shame. He's very, very vocal on social media about the shows he's doing and the way he talks makes it sound like he's coming from this forward thinking, sex positive, ‘Let’s push the boundaries’ way. But then the two shows, as Shan mentioned, Only Friends and Playboyy, just felt so regressive in their ultimate messages, and in how they treated their most boundary pushing characters. So I—with much regret because I was very excited about him as a new voice and a new presence in the scene—fully do not trust him anymore.
Cheewin I have more grace for because he's got a much bigger resume and he's made some things that I really loved. Secret Crush on You is one of my shows of all time. Why r u? is also a favorite of mine. I am watching Deep Night and I'm curious to see what he's doing with Den's involvement maybe less in this story side of things.
Ben
I'm glad for your answer. I've been dealing with my own version of BL burnout for a while. As you all have gotten here in real time on this show, so I am currently not watching Deep Night, so I've been curious about your reactions as we get deeper into that. I'm tired of getting disappointed around the 50 to 70% mark of these shows and then being grumpy for a month as they stumble their way to the end. I’m about to be like NiNi and just binge shows after they're done.
NiNi
It's a technique that I highly recommend for a lot of shows, actually. Not every show, but a lot of shows.
Ben
Shan, you traditionally used to like to binge shows after they were mostly done. You started watching live because you unfortunately met me.
Shan
[laughs] It's all your fault, bestie.
Ben
Where are you currently on Den, Cheewin, and your general vibe with showrunner teams that have let you down, and engaging with future work?
Shan
I really agree with what Ginny said about Den and Cheewin in particular. Cheewin has a long history. I've really loved some of his work. I've really disliked some of his work. I think that's how it's always gonna be with Cheewin, he's a little bit hit or miss. He tries things and it doesn't always work. But I'm willing to come into each of his new projects with benefit of the doubt to see what he's trying to do.
With Den, I'm much more wary after these couple projects back-to-back. I'm always wary of creators who speak so much on social media outside of their work to try to shape opinions about it rather than letting the work speak. That has been a wariness that I've had around him from the beginning because he's been very vocal about his active projects, trying to shape and define the fan response to them in a way that I find a bit off-putting. With these projects in particular, I feel like he's been really trying to claim a mantle that he is not actually owning and earning with his work. So yeah, similar to Ginny, I don't really trust him anymore. I will not be live watching any more shows that he's writing, and I'll be waiting to hear from other folks that I trust about whether or not I should be even venturing into them at all.
NiNi
I'm going to give it a 0 which I never give shows. I was actively offended and I don't want to talk about it anymore.
Ben
Ginny, you have any final thoughts about Playboyy you wanna share?
Ginny
No. I want someone to make a good sex show, that's all.
Ben
This show is going to get a DNF from The Conversation. We did not finish it. You don't need to either.
NiNi
And with that, let's move on.
00:18:42 - 7 Days Before Valentine
NiNi
The next show we're gonna talk about is 7 Days Before Valentine. Wait, so which one of us watched this, was it just me and Ginny?
Ben
Yeah, just you and Ginny. I'll talk a little bit about it and then I'll let you two take over. We jumped onto 7 Days Before Valentine because Punnasak Sukee was running this project. We all know him from 180 Degree Longitude Passes Through Us, which is a favorite of mine. So we were really excited to see additional work from him. He was adapting someone else's work this time.
The initial premise is about this guy named Sunshine, who is an aspiring actor who has a kind of ugly breakup with his boyfriend, who's now seeing someone else. He meets this supernatural being which is able to grant him a wish to erase someone from existence in order to help him reunite with his boyfriend. He gets seven days of attempts to erase someone, and then the world resets, and he progressively erases different people who he believes are the person responsible for why he and his boyfriend didn't work out.
I ended up not finishing the show because I was struggling with it as a weekly watch. NiNi came behind it late and watched it basically in two or three sittings and seemed to have a much better experience with it.
I want to go to you first, Ginny, because I think you live watched the whole thing.
Ginny
I did live watch the whole thing, and I do think that NiNi did it better, because I think it was better suited for a binge. Obviously, we know going in that this guy is not gonna end up thinking that erasing somebody every night is a great thing to do, like, that's a horrific premise. His journey of really internalizing what he's doing and the horror of it is slooow to unfold over 10 weeks or so. It moves too slowly. I think it actually would have been a better show with shorter episodes. I think the episodic breaks are where they need to be, but I think that each episode could be tighter and brisker.
NiNi and I both also read the source novel. I don't know how much we want to get into that, but I think we both were fascinated by how much the adaptation team added and enriched the very simple core story. It was a beautiful show, I think NiNi will talk a lot about that. The sort of root of this man who's lonely and has felt like he's had one person who loves and is a partner to him, abandon him and his desperation to get that back, being slowly replaced by his attachment to this other person who's locked in this weird Faustian situation with him.
There was some good meat in there and some really good scenes played out. So I am glad I watched it. I think I would have enjoyed it better on a binge and I think it would have been a better show if it had been, just edited more tightly and moved faster through this character’s realizations.
NiNi
I think that's mostly how I felt about it. So I did watch it on a binge and I remember when we were discussing it saying that it felt like being in the theater for some really experimental play. Just sitting in the dark, thoroughly enjoying watching this thing unfold, not knowing where it's going but having a real good time. That's how it felt to me going through it, it was a little trippy. It was deep and interesting in the places that it needed to be deep and interesting. I liked the rhythm and meter and cadence of the dialogue. I don't speak Thai, but I do sing, and getting rhythm and meter, you could kind of feel the way that it was written, the kind of poetry, maybe, that it was meant to evoke. I was thoroughly enjoying this soothing rhythm of how it was written.
The set design is outstanding. And then there's some stuff happening on like TVs and signs and all kinds of things in the background that was just crazy fun. It's a very moody, atmospheric kind of piece. It's sorta kinda like folklore or fairy tale, something supernatural. I had a really great, engaging time with it. I truly enjoyed it. I thought it was beautiful to watch.
I also agree, Ginny, that it feels long, but then when you go through it, you're like, well, what would they cut? Where would they cut? Everything that's there feels like it needs to be there, and then the things that you're thinking, well, maybe they could shorten this or that. They add to the atmosphere of the piece in such a way that helped me immerse myself in the work. Like, there's some lull portions of it where it's just a character singing or, like, Sunshine doing the monologue from Macbeth. Maybe they could have cut this, but then when those things are happening, I'm literally glued, I can't turn away from them.
It's definitely not BL, it's very experimental work that I personally enjoyed, but it's not a traditional narrative at all.
Ben
Shan, did you watch this show at all?
Shan
I did not. When the show started airing, I still hadn't watched 180 Degree Longitude Passes Through Us. So I remember when you all started this show live, asking whether I should watch it. And you, I think Ben, are the one who told me no. ‘No, I want you to watch 180D first.’ And as I was working through that binge, you all were continuing with 7 Days Before Valentine and kind of realizing, oh, this is not really holding up the same mantle as that show. So I ended up never diving in and then the final reviews of the show were pretty much mixed. It didn't feel like something I needed to prioritize to watch. I still haven't watched it. I'm not sure if I will.
NiNi
The only similarity really between 180D and this is that they both feel theatrical, but they feel theatrical in different ways. 180D is not anything like 7 Days Before Valentine.
Ginny
I think what you said about this feeling kind of folktale- or fairytale-esque was spot on, NiNi. In contrast to 180, which is all about these really deep, complex character interactions, all these characters felt very archetypical, and we were kind of watching these archetypical themes play out. In a way that was quite effective for a lot of it, but yeah, very different story strengths than 180 had.
Ben
So since the two of you finished the story, do you have any comments on the arc that Sunshine and Kyu go through over all of the resets they do together?
NiNi
I mean, I think here is where we would actually do like a little bit of novel comparison. The novel is so much more simplistic. There is so much less happening in the novel on a narrative standpoint. Kyu is not a character that gets his own arc in the novel. Kyu is just a character that shows up every night, gives Sunshine his wish, who he's gonna erase, and then disappears. Whereas in the show, Kyu is a fully fledged character in its own right with his own arc, and it is suggested, as well, his own Kyu?
I enjoyed Sunshine's arc in the show, a very lonely character who is sort of figuring out that he doesn't need to grab onto this one person and hold on to them super tight and be terrified if that person leaves him. Basically kicking and flailing to save the relationship once it's over. The way that that arc plays out, the way that Sunshine learns over the course of the seven nights. He starts with, ‘oh, we'll just get rid of the new guy, that'll bring him back to me’ and then he goes deeper and deeper and further and further out trying to find the ripples of how his relationship went wrong. Until, I think, it's the sixth night he asks to have himself erased? And then by the seventh night, he just wants Kyu to be happy. It’s really so well done.
Ginny
I think the nicest little storyline is around Sunshine realizing the importance of community. You see him initially very fixated on ‘I need this one person to come back to me’ and as the story wraps up and everybody's restored, you see him starting to see these other relationships with people who are in his life because of his ex, but also maybe care about him, who he could have some kind of community with. I think that was one of the most important character growth lines of the show, specifically with the ex's friend, and realizing that maybe the way he had seen her and his relationship to her had been very clouded by his own self-image and assumptions about people seeing him as somebody who should be discarded.
NiNi
What did you think about the Mephistopheles-esque character? Because he wasn't in the book.
Ginny
Oh, he was my favorite. The liquor and flower shop, so much fun. Every scene. There were a lot of scenes in the show that I was kind of bored during because again, I think they were just not paced very tightly, but every scene with this liquor flower shop owner, I was riveted. He was so engaging and dynamic as a atmospheric character, he brought so much richness.
Ben
What did the two of you rate the show?
Ginny
I gave it a 7.5. I think it's worth watching if the premise interests you, if you like great theatrical settings or cinematography. It was beautifully shot. And if the sort of Faustian theme and things like that are interesting, definitely worth a watch.
NiNi
I gave it an 8.5. I think that because I binged it, I had a slightly different experience and there were some things in the pacing that maybe I enjoyed slightly more because of that. I don't think it's for everybody, but if you like Faustian stories and you like experimental storytelling, I think it's a good one.
Ben
It's getting an 8 with an asterisk.
NiNi
I think that's fair.
00:29:35 - Dead Friend Forever
NiNi
So next up, we are going to be talking Dead Friend Forever. Be On Cloud’s, horror-slasher-thriller.
Shan, you pick up this one. Tell us what Dead Friend Forever is about.
Shan
Dead Friend Forever is, I think, maybe the first attempt in the genre to do a long form horror story. One of, actually, the big discussion points about this show is exactly what genre it lives in and what it's trying to be. It ended up blending a lot of different horror sub genres. It did some good mystery work. It did end up having a couple BL love lines, but that didn't follow the normal beats because of the genres it was living in. I think ultimately, it is the story of a teenage boy who was harmed by many people and the fallout of that.
Ginny, I feel like you know more of the lore behind the show and kind of the build up to it. Do you want to add to that?
Ginny
So this was a showcase for Be On Cloud’s new stable that they first brought in through their reality show The Hidden Character. And then this was the drama that a large number of these new guys got to star in. So some of the storytelling choices, there were some scenes that I felt like, oh this is really just for your resume reel, isn't it? But that said, it was well constructed. It was, I think, a good choice to make kind of the slasher genre that lets you have a lot of different characters with very vivid personalities that let these new actors demonstrate their talent without taxing them too hard on too much complexity.
I really enjoyed this show. I have some notes, but overall, I thought it was fantastically well done, and especially as a way to launch about half a dozen new faces into the scene. And also a way to launch the cooperation between Be On Cloud and Sammon, the very beloved writer of Thai BL suspense. Her skills and Be On Cloud’s orientation and vision seem to be a really good match, so I'm excited to see her writing and their production team do more together.
Shan
I think actually finding out that she was the writer is the thing that finally sucked me into this show. [laughs] I jumped in, I think after episode 8? I kept hearing how good the writing was, and then I think Ginny told me that Sammon was the writer and I was like, ‘Oh! Let me get in there.’
I'm with you, I want them to do a lot more collaborations in the future because she is one of the stronger writers, I think, working in Thai BL, and they are one of the stronger production houses, so it's a really nice pairing.
Ben
I was watching this weekly with you all and then we got to the end of episode 4, and the teaser indicated a flashback and I was like, ‘I saw The Untamed. I'm not spending 27 episodes on that.’
[Ginny laughs]
Shan
Oh not The Untamed catching strays! Rude!
NiNi
I will allow it.
Ginny
We're gonna get so many notes.
[Shan and Ben laugh]
Ben
Look, I enjoyed The Untamed, but it was so ridiculous. And I just was not in the mood because I am not that keen on horror. As a black person who was raised in the South, I do not need to watch horror to trigger my fight or flight instinct for fun, so. I'm not that keen on the genre. It does not do much for me. I find that I can really only give about two-ish hours to a slasher concept before I get tired of it and need to walk away. And that happened to me with Dead Friend Forever, ‘cause we were in it for about four episodes, which was about three-ish hours, and I was like, ‘I'm done. [sigh] I'm taking a break.’
And then Shan, after episode eight, was like, ‘This show is very good. So, jot that down.’
Shan
I was like, ‘I'm so sorry, bestie. You're gonna have to finish it.’ [laughs]
Ben
I was like, “Goddammit!” [laughs]
Shan
It was really good!
Ben
I enjoyed a lot of the character writing. When they decided to delve into the horrors that these boys had inflicted on Non, played by Barcode—who was really good in this show—the show decided to really full commit to it. Holy shit!
NiNi
Like it was Korean level, how deep they got into the bullying.
Shan
Yeah. Like, they did not hold back, they really went for it.
Ginny
Everybody wanted to see all of those boys die by the first flashback episode. Everyone was like, nevermind!
Shan
Kill ‘em all.
Ginny
Whoever’s out in the woods, killin’ ‘em? Get ‘em all.
Shan
Here's another axe.
Ben
I think they did a good job in illustrating the ways that boys just choosing to be a little bit shitty can snowball. There were a lot of points in the flashback where one person not being a coward or not being cruel could have saved all of them from the disaster that befalls them. It's important that we understand, like, why all these boys need to die if we're going to watch them all get brutally murdered.
Speaking of the brutal murder portion of it, let's talk about the final episode and the bloodbath we got. Let's start with our favorite deaths. Who is the most bloodthirsty of all of us? It's definitely Shan.
[NiNi laughs]
Shan
There's no contest.
NiNi
It is 100% Shan.
Ginny
100%.
Shan
The highlight reel of deaths, which was my favorite? I really liked Fluke and Top kind of taking each other out together. So these are both characters who had been antagonists throughout the show. Top had been the most overtly aggressive antagonist throughout the show, he was just horrible, annoying, like you could never see why anybody would ever like that kid. And Fluke had been the bystander who saw everything happening, didn't actually do any of the perpetration directly, but also never intervened and never tried to make any of it stop.
In their final scenes before their deaths, they were both standing in the same place they had always been: denying their accountability, saying, ‘I refuse to accept blame, I refuse to apologize, I refuse to die,’ and then they got into this little battle with each other and ended up going over the banister. They had already both been grievously injured, Fluke’s injury probably being my favorite. He ended up stabbing his own eyes out, which I thought was just such an appropriate poetic ending for him before then falling to his death.
Ben
Ginny, you were a huge fan of this show the whole way through. You're up next. Who was your favorite death?
Ginny
My favorite death was New. I think he's the last confirmed death because it's left sort of vague what happens to the last few guys. What I love is that he's been on this big revenge chorus and as far as we can tell, he's been doing everything. He overdid it. He caused the deaths of two people who weren't at all involved. Narratively, he needs to die, but he goes through this whole cycle of, ‘is this what Non would have wanted? Non, did I let you down again?’ He's got huge guilt on him.
He's been shot. He's bleeding out. He sees Non come to him and sort of say, ‘yes, big brother, you did a great job destroying all these people who destroyed me. Thanks for that.’ So it's this very cathartic and almost sweet moment, even as he is dying. And I really liked it.
Ben
NiNi?
NiNi
Whoo, so, in my view, the people who most needed to die didn't. Or maybe they did, who knows. But the death that I found most satisfying…Por dying slowly in the background while everything is not about him, given that his need for the spotlight pushed almost everything that happened. I thought it was really elegant that he just literally gets dumped on a couch and basically forgotten to die.
Ben
Because I'm last, I get to cheat. My favorite death was Fluke because all he did was watch people be cruel and do nothing to help, and he was driven to insanity and stabbed his own eyes out. I thought that was excellent, really good thematic death for that character. A+.
But my favorite death in terms of playing with genre themes has to be Tea stabbing White to death. A lot of folks in the discourse were hoping that he was gonna be the Final Girl.
Shan
It's me, I'm folks! I did not want White to die!
Ben
[laughs] I didn't think that boy deserved to die, but I thought it was appropriate. And he died in a really fucked up way.
NiNi
Genre-wise, it was definitely appropriate that he died.
Shan
It was a totally fair storytelling choice. I'm not mad at the show about it, but I'm really sad.
Ben
Oh, but we do have things we're mad at the show about.
Shan
We sure do. [laughs]
Ben
Let's talk about that bullshit ass final 10, 15 minutes [Shan dramatically sighs] with Phee and Jin.
NiNi
Phee and Jin and technically Tee, but let's focus on Phee and Jin.
Shan
Phee and Jin are the bigger problem here.
Ben
Who wants to go first? [brief pause] Oh, good, I'll go. [laughs]
NiNi
Oh no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no friend. I am going to go first, okay.
Shan
I was gonna say, NiNi’s gotta go on this one.
NiNi
Because let me tell you, Jin was the living worse because Jin was the Nice Guy. Jin just thought that his friends could be shitty as hell to Non forever, and as long as he smiled at him and was sweet to him and he put enough quarters in the Non machine that maybe Non would fuck him. And then when Non—trigger warning—when Non ends up being assaulted by his tutoring teacher and Jin sees that, what does he do? Does he try to stop it? Does he try to comfort him? Does he try to help him? No! He records it and puts it on the internet to ruin Non’s life. He needed to die, bloody, and he did not die bloody for me to see. And I was upset by that.
Now Phee. I have words for Phee because your man is basically run out of town on a rail by these losers. You are all set to get revenge with his brother, and then one of them slangs you the dick and you're done with the whole revenge thing? Really, you gave up on the revenge? Are you serious right now? You ain’t hard. You ain’t bad. You ain’t serious. You're really trying to protect Jin? After everything? You know what he did!
Ugh, I can't even. Phee and Jin needed to die bloody so that I could see. That did not happen. The psychological horror of whatever the story is saying happened with them at the end—that they never left the house, that they’re trapped in there—I don't care. I needed to see them die bloody. The end.
Now you can talk, Ben.
Ben
Thank you! [NiNi laughs] I'm just gonna say it straight up, I fuckin’ hated it. I feel like that was where the BL aspects of it got in the way of the horror aspects of it. It feels like the show didn't want to show them dying horrible, bloody deaths because they were the primary BL pair? And I was not that keen on them doing the whole, ‘they didn't make it, but here's a little bit of fluff for the people who need that so that they can check out from facing that reality.’
I didn't like it! I wanted to see them also die bloody, painful deaths. They hedged. They showed Jin also being affected by the toxin that New inflicted them with when he was taking a knife to his hand, but they didn't finish it. And I was grumpy about it.
Shan
I agree with both of you and I think it's a shame because, I thought that what the show was doing with Phee through, like, episode nine was so interesting and so smart. Phee cared about Non, but he had also ended things with Non before he disappeared. He thought that Non had been cheating on him. Things didn't end with them in a good place. So he kind of reluctantly came along with New into this plan to get revenge on these boys who had ruined Non’s life.
That whole arc that played out was honestly some of the best mystery writing I've ever seen. It was so masterful, the reveals were perfect, the pacing was awesome. I was so hype about this show. And then around episode 10 is when they started pulling their punches on Phee and it seemed to me to be related to this Phee and Jin stuff. It started with Phee and Jin finding out the roles they each played in Non's life and his downfall. I expected that to be a big moment of realization for Phee, like ‘oh, this boy that I've been interested in was the person who filmed Non being assaulted and put it on the internet.’ Like, that should have been a very, very big deal for him to find out that Jin is the person who did that. But it wasn't. Phee didn't care, really. He had a very brief reaction and then moved on and continued protecting Jin but it didn't create a fracture in their relationship at all, which it absolutely should have.
That for me is when the writing of the show started to falter, and when I started to feel like, like you said, Ben, there were some other influences external to the show interfering with the story revolving around Phee and Jin being a popular BL ship and them not wanting to bust them up. And then that also led to, I think, this weird choice with the ending to imply that Phee and Jin survived and got to be happy. ‘Oh, but maybe they didn't. Maybe that was a dream and they're in the woods. But we're not gonna show you. We're gonna leave it open. Shippers get to interpret it the way they like. The horror fans get to interpret it the way they like. Everybody wins.’ But, when you make those kind of weaselly, non-choice choices, nobody wins.
Ben
At the end of episode 11, they dropped that axe, and then they panned over to it and I'm like, ‘oh boy, I can't wait to see somebody get fucking chopped up with that fuckin’ axe.’ And no one got fucking killed with the axe! I am so disappointed.
NiNi
Ginny, what about you? Where did you get off, so to speak?
Ginny
It didn't feel ambiguous to me so much as it felt like a classic horror movie gotcha. You think they got out free and they're fine and they're all happy? ‘Whoops. Nope, they never left the woods.’ I think if they’d landed on that just a little bit harder, if for example, we'd seen a hand pick up that axe and drag it along the ground and then cut to black.
NiNi
Oh, that would have been so good.
Ginny
Right? I think it might have been wenkexingapologist who suggested that so I don't want to take credit for it, but lovely, my alternate ending. I do think because the ending was so brief and we don't actually see them back there, as Shan said, it leaves a little room for people who really wanna believe in Phee and Jin's happy ever after to believe that. And I think that's a bit cowardly, although I do understand the market forces that maybe led them to do that.
I also would have really loved to see, like, a full character devolution the way that we got with Fluke very appropriately poking his eyes out and Tee stabbing his new innocent love. I would have loved to see that kind of character-driven end for both Phee and Jin, so I'm a little disappointed in that. But my real quibble with the ending that we got is just that they didn't land quite hard enough on it for me.
Ben
I don't like a psychological ending to a slasher when I'm in a slasher I'm expecting my bloodlust to be sated. I don't wanna think through the horror at the end of a slasher.
NiNi
[laughs] Gotta agree.
Shan
That's fair. My only other real strong critique of the show is, given the way that White died, given that he was a victim in the end, I was frustrated by how underwritten he was relative to all the other characters. We just never got to know him. We didn't understand what motivated him. We didn't understand why he liked Tee. We knew he had nothing to do with what happened to Non, and that was intentional, he was meant to be an innocent victim in this. But I would have liked to know him better.
I think where my frustration with this really came bubbling to the surface is he had a hallucination at the end, just like all the other boys. And he was hallucinating boils on his skin and we never knew why. We never got any backstory to explain why his specific fear was centered on this visible disfigurement, this idea that he was going to be rejected because he was dirty, quote unquote. We can fill in some guesses. A lot of folks have put forward theories, but we shouldn't have to put forward a theory for that, all the other boys had hallucinations and fears that were very clearly tied to what we knew about them and what they had done. We didn't get anything like that for White’s. They wanted him to be part of it, but we never knew enough about him to understand what brought him to that state, and why those were his fears, and that felt a little lacking to me, in the end.
Ben
So, final ratings. NiNi?
NiNi
I ended up at an 8.5 because I just thought that it was egregious that I did not get to see Phee and Jin die bloody, A. And B, I also thought that the way the show was structured was really good, but, I think that it may have been more effective for the flashbacks to have been interspersed with the present day rather than being a section on their own in the middle.
Ben
Ginny?
Ginny
I also gave it an 8.5. It was so tight and so well written, did almost all of what it set out to do. Did pull its punches a little at the end. Did weaken story-wise over the final three episodes. That's why it's not higher, but I did really love and appreciate it.
Ben
Shan.
Shan
I gave it an 8 for the same reasons basically that NiNi and Ginny just said. I think it was an excellent show for 9 episodes and then I think it kind of weakened in the final arc. I give a lot of weight to the ending of a show like this and I think having to leave on the bum dissatisfied note at the end of a slasher is just kind of a bummer.
Ben
For the reasons Shan gave, I gave the show a 7.5. Release is a huge part of horror storytelling and not giving us release after three months pissed me off. I don't want to give the show a 7 ‘cause that feels disrespectful to how well executed this whole project is. My primary feeling with Dead Friend Forever is dissatisfaction when I think about it. I should be reveling in the bloodlust at the end and I did not get that feeling.
NiNi
[laughs] I know, right? One thing I did enjoy at the very end is everybody hallucinating baby Barcode basically coming for their asses.
Ginny
That was so good.
NiNi
Barcode had such a great time playing that character.
Shan
We shouldn't leave this segment without talking about how good Barcode was in this show.
NiNi
He was amazing.
Ben
They let Barcode play off of a lot of different characters in a lot of different ways, particularly with some of the fantasy scenarios. And I'm really excited for future work from him.
That averages out to 8.125. We'll give it an 8 from The Conversation. Recommended if you want to watch a long-ass horror experience with the caveats that we have some consternation about the ending.
00:50:03 - Love for Love’s Sake
NiNi
Let's head on to the main event for this episode: Love for Love’s Sake. Ben, you got this one. Take it away.
Ben
Finally, a show I watched properly the whole way! We've been here for an hour and 20 minutes, talking about shows I either quit or started late!
Love for Love’s Sake is a Korean BL. A 29 year-old man wakes up in some sort of strange world where he is back in high school, dealing with some sort of game interface telling him he has to go make his blorbo happy. The show initiates from him meeting with an old friend who's a writer who asked him to beta read his book. And he was pissed about this het nonsense, going, “Why does this boy have to be sad and suffer in other people's happy ending?” His friend goes, “Well, they're adapting my book into a game. If you could, would you make him happy?” And then he passes out drunk, because that's what happens in Korean shows, and he wakes up in the fantasy world, and now he's got this game interface telling him to do stuff. And his mission is: Make Cha Yeo Woon—his blorbo—Happy, or Die. As the show goes along, the game gives him different rewards, sends him different quests. And this gets complicated by some reveals we get late in this, but let's pick up there with the initial conceit.
Shan, you watch this live with us. Let's talk through the live watch experience of this. I was very familiar with this type of storytelling, where someone dies in our world or whatever and then wakes up in another world and has to deal with the fantasy conceits of it, particularly around gaming and such. And also I've played a lot of fucking video games. So a lot of this stuff was super legible to me right away and I did not need a lot of handholding. But you expressed some frustration early on with this.
NiNi
Just so that I understand when Ben teaches me Japanese terms that I remember them. Is this what they would refer to as ‘isekai’ Ben?
Ben
This is what we would call isekai.
Shan
Look at you, NiNi.
NiNi
Thanks! I learn things every day.
Shan
The live watch of this show was extremely fun. A lot of the discussion week to week was about like, what exactly is going on here? Because the show didn't want to tell us. [laughs] I think what might have frustrated me a bit in the beginning was not understanding fully the rules of the universe, which as we get to the end becomes clear why that was. There was a purpose to that in the storytelling. It's not always that easy to tell at the beginning of a show how confidently the story is being told, and like how intentional all the choices are versus what's just a misstep.
But the show, I think, was confidently told, like it knew what it wanted to do and what it wanted to do, ultimately, was leave a lot of room for interpretation in what this game world was, why it worked the way it did, what the choices of the characters meant, what the characters themselves even were. So I thought it was great as a live watch, honestly, and I'm really glad that we watched it that way. I got a lot out of those weekly discussions where we would all unpack what we thought was going on, the questions that we had, things that we noticed as we were trying to figure out what this world was about. An early moment in the show that just gutted me and, like, had me clutching my chest and like in it—no matter what—was when Myung Ha was in the game he would get these scores over the heads of people to see what Yeo Woon—what was it called, Ben? The attractiveness score or the like score or something like that?
Ben
It was the score about his affection level; how much Cha Yeo Woon liked you.
Shan
Right. So because his original mission as we understood it was to make Yeo Woon like him, he would see where his affection level was sitting—it was always hilariously low. And then he unlocked this new power to be able to see how Yeo Woon's affection level was sitting for other people as well. The score was very low for everybody, but then we see that the lowest affection score that Yeo Woon has for anybody is for himself.
Ben
I screamed.
Shan
It was a knife straight into the heart, like, oh my God, this poor boy. And you just fully understood him in that moment. It was done so craftily through this established power that Myung Ha had the way that the show moved on from it quickly. Like, I'm not even sure how deeply Myung Ha even processes it as the player in that moment. It was just so artfully done, and I was like, “Oh, this show knows what it's about.” It really instilled confidence in me from that point forward that I was along for a ride here, and that the things I didn't understand, it was because I wasn't supposed to understand them.
Once we clicked into that, the experience of watching each set of two episodes each week, having deep discussion about them, and unpacking them along the way was such an awesome way to watch. It's not that it's bad in a binge, but I think it's one that really benefits from stopping to think between installments and let your mind wander and process all the different things that it threw at you.
Ben
With that in mind, I want to ask Ginny, because NiNi's been very busy. But, Ginny, you generally receive through the grapevine what's going on with the project, even if you're not really watching it at the moment. What was it like for you seeing this show engender such positive brainrot in people, and then going into it yourself fairly spoiled for some of the big reveals?
Ginny
It was a totally different experience. The main reason I didn't watch it live is that Korean BL is real hit or miss for me, so I always let you guys go into it first, and then tip me off if you think I might like this one. Around episode 6, I was like, “Hey, should I watch this?” And Shan was like, “No, just wait till it's all over.” But yeah, I was seeing a lot of hype. It was clearly making people think a lot. And then it was really cool watching the conversation turn.
I didn't realize right away what was happening, but it was clear that this was getting really existential all of a sudden in ways that people hadn't necessarily been anticipating. Seeing people suddenly less up in their heads about what exactly is going on and more like, “Oh, I'm suddenly hit with all these emotions about all of these ramifications of what I've learned.” And then I did, not intending to, pick up the gist of the big reveals, and so I went into it kind of knowing what it was going to be. So, I had a very different watch experience from those of you who watched it live.
It was a good watch experience. It might have been better for me because I was immediately looking out for all of these little indications and all of these deeper ripples of meaning. For me, it was more like I know what we're getting to, so as soon as I saw that, I knew what it meant. Which was also a good experience, just a different one.
Ben
From this point on, listeners, we are going to discuss major reveals and spoilers about the end of this show.
I have a personal family experience around drowning, and so when we saw Tae Myung Ha's eyes in that sequence when he kept, like, teleporting around the world, because of all of the water sounds we have been getting in the show, I was like, “Oh no… I'm not gonna put that out there.” But I very much felt it coming. This show ends up being about Tae Myung Ha’s suicide, and we end up in an uncertain place about what all we're experiencing with him.
Shan
We started this show thinking that it was a game. And recognizing that the show was dealing with some heavy themes, recognizing that there seemed to be an element of Yeo Woon being a stand-in for Myung Has's need to develop self love. And I don't think we realized how literal that was going to get. It was heavy to realize this character that we had gotten invested in…was gone.
Ben
In her notes, NiNi has a comment about The Good Place relative to this show, so I want to come to you now, NiNi. You went into the show with us basically telling you, “We know you're busy, but in no uncertain terms you must watch [laughs] this show. We will not be telling you about it on the podcast. You will be watching.”
NiNi
So, I actually went in unspoiled, but I did binge it after it was over. It played with genre in away you start up thinking that it's a sci-fi thing where he's trapped in the game, and it ended up being this sort of existential, heavy magical-realism thing. When the game starts malfunctioning is when I realized it all was not quite right in terms of how we were processing originally what the show we thought we were getting is.
In the beginning, it's cool and fun to look at the show as a video game and try to be like, “Oh, there's the NPCs, there's dead pixels, there's the background map." Yes, Ben, I do know game things. Thanks. All the little video game elements of the story. You're picking up on all that and you're having a good time. In the meanwhile, it is giving you flashes of these things. Like, it's giving you that flash of Yeo Woon being the person that he hates the most. The game malfunctioning in little bits and pieces, things like that. You're getting all these hints, but you're not putting them together until something big and catastrophic happens. It's so well done. I was having such a good time with it, and then I get to the end and you realize exactly what's happening, that this is all…it's the gods playing dice, right? It's them saying this is the way that we have decided that you deal with your afterlife.
Ben talked about my note about The Good Place. For me, that's what it was. It was about Myung Ha having to find a way to accomplish the things in death that he didn't accomplish in life, of death not being an ending, of death being an opportunity to still learn and grow, and maybe have a life afterward. Whatever it is that you have to learn to take with you into the next life. Basically, it's Myung Ha learning to pour so much love into himself that he can feel it either in his afterlife or in the next life.
And that idea of death not being the end; people found it bummed them out. I found it really comforting.
Ben
I really want to get into how everybody received this project and the major feelings it engendered in them that they walked away with. Ginny, where are you sitting with this resolution of the show and how you're carrying it forward with you?
Ginny
Good question. It left me feeling, I think, less sad than it might have left you. NiNi compared it to The Good Place. I found myself thinking a lot about The End of the World With You, which is also about characters wrestling with the desire to die—the theme that I often am wary to engage with in stories. But I found both of these to be very affirming and loving towards those characters, while also saying, “What if you made a different choice? Not because it's the natural or the easy thing, but because there's reasons to do that.”
For Tae Myung Ha to turn his focus away from meeting other people's needs and say, “Actually, what if your happiness mattered? What if you gave yourself the love and care that you want to give to this character that you see yourself in?” is such a resonant theme. I came away not needing necessarily to know how I interpret the characters final state or status, but feeling like I'd been gently led through this experience of “Love yourself more. Work to make yourself happy instead of walking into the sea.” It was a very life affirming watch experience for me, although it did have this deep melancholy around it also.
Shan
One of the things I really like about the ending of the show is that it is so open for interpretation. There are no two people who have the exact same interpretation of what the ending means. People took what they needed from it, I think, and what they preferred to believe, and the show left it open for people to be able to do that. I ultimately didn't actually receive this show as a BL or a romance at all.
Important note here perhaps is that I am an atheist and I don't believe in the afterlife. And so for me, this was a show about something really tragic that happened, and maybe being able to be given this small chance to find self love. I don't think Yeo Woon is an actual person that Myung Ha fell in love with. I think he is a representation of Myung Ha's own self and his need to learn to love himself. And so I did find it quite sad and quite melancholy, but in a way that I thought was just so lovely. Such a lovely way to deliver that message about the importance of self love, about the importance of trying, about not giving up. I really loved it. I find it beautiful.
Ben
It's the rare instance where a show ends ambiguously, but the audience is not fighting with each other over the interpretation. As the resident Sad Boy of the podcast team, let me tell you: I chose the saddest interpretation possible for this.
NiNi
[Ben and NiNi laugh] Of course you did, bestie. Absolutely you did.
Shan
You sure did. Even sadder than mine, somehow. [laughs]
Ben
I was talking about the end, and Shan was like, “Damn, Ben shit. [laughs] “You live like this, girl? Shit!”
I was really caught up in the character of the nebulous writer, the God figure, and author of this world, seemingly. I like the idea of someone who clearly cared about his friend not really knowing what to do with his friend's tragedy, and trying to find a way to remember him kindly. I think that's where I connected to, less so in Myung Ha's final moments or afterlife, but more in the grief that the people in his life have to live with after his passing. I like the idea of somebody immortalizing a friend of theirs in an experience where the player is asked to please make him happy.
NiNi
This is why you're the melancholy boy, because I didn't even go there.
Ginny
Yup! [laughs]
Shan
One of the really interesting live discussions that we had was around the role of the game creator—a lot of speculation about who he was, this idea that he was a friend who would lovingly created this place for Myung Ha. And I was like, “No!” because why would a friend force these cruel choices on someone he was trying to help? The cruelest choice that I think really stands out for people in the game is when Myung Ha is forced to choose between saving his grandmother or saving Yeo Woon, and that was a big point of focus for a lot of the speculative discussion.
Who put him in this game and for what reason are we talking about God-like figure who is putting him through trials? Are we talking about a friend who's trying to give him a path to self love? One of the things that I love about this show is that there are so many things like that throughout where you could focus on a thing that happened, or something that was going on in the background, or like an interaction, and you could unpack it and come up with so many different interpretations for it that could be true. The show is just loaded with stuff like that and so many details.
Once you know where the ending is leading, if you go back and watch it from the start, or just think back, there are clues the whole time about the drowning. There are water sounds from the first episode. You can hear water when Myung Ha is in like a certain state. The place that he is talking with this author in is in some kind of otherworldly dimension that never connects to anything else in the show.
NiNi
He always looks wet, his bangs are plastered to his forehead. He always looks like he's soaked.
Shan
They definitely knew what they were doing the whole time, and the show is just loaded with these small details that the production baked in. It's just so well done.
NiNi
The show is basically a Rorschach test. It's so interpretable. It’s hard to do that in a show. It is an incredibly difficult balance to maintain.
Ben
That was part of the fun I had chatting with everybody. Shan was talking about the back and forth we're having where she really rejected my interpretation because she thought a lot of the choices in the game were cruel.
NiNi
I'm on Shan’s side. I think it's a cruel and whimsical God.
Ben
And I was talking about how ugly grief can be sometimes, and how sometimes some of that will come out where you get mad at them. I like that a big part of the resolution from Myung Ha is to reject the bullshit choice of choosing the boy he likes or his grandmother. That seems like the kind of frustration that somebody who's listened to a friend who's suffering fall into a really negative spiral over something that is not a correct way to place things against each other, like an either or in their life. And I interpreted that as sort of a…externalization of their frustration about that kind of stuff.
Shan
And I remember liking that interpretation, Ben. Not really a denial of the cruelty, but like an acknowledgment that sometimes we're cruel to people we love because of our own frustration. I really ended up liking a lot of different interpretations of the show, even if I didn't share them. I really enjoyed reading people's thoughts about it.
Ben
I really like that part a lot. I really loved that everybody took something from this and it was appreciable. Someone gives you their interpretation and you just go, hmm. And then you sit with it for a bit. And there's not a ‘I agree’ or ‘disagree,’ you just receive what that person is connecting to, and you've learned a little bit about somebody else as a result. We didn't talk a lot about the side characters, but I liked Cha Woong Ki in this because he was very funny on Boys Planet, and I really liked what Oh Min Su did with Chun Sang Won, because that boy was a very fun version of queer, and his crush on Tae Myung Ha but we'll get no satisfaction from it.
Shan
[laughs] I remember Ben being very disappointed that we never got to meet Kyung Hoon's boyfriend in Canada.
Ben
Right! We never met the Canadian. I'm so mad. I'm like, “That boy doesn't exist!”
Shan
Yes! And I said, “Ben, you're not allowed to meet the Canadian partner. That's the joke!”
NiNi
That's literally the joke. You go to a different school. You don't know them. That's the joke.
Ben
Yeah, but you showed me—what's that show—Goblin? We went to Maple Nation! We can go find him!
Shan
I do think maybe one of the consequences of the way the show ended and how that absorbed our attention is that the side characters got maybe a little bit of short shrift. Who are they? Are they players in the game? Are they characters in the game? Are they real? They kind of got lost a little bit, but those performances were great, and I really liked the dynamics between the characters inside the game.
NiNi
So ratings, let's start with you, Ginny.
Ginny
I gave it a 9. I thought it was really excellent. Beautifully done. A really good experience. As a story, it's not something that I want to go back to.
Ben
Shannon.
Shan
I also gave it a 9. I do think that there was some fuzziness here and there. It was short, and there were maybe some shortcuts that had to be taken because of the time that they had. It didn't quite get to the 10 level for me. It's a strong recommendation with a big trigger warning caveat about some of the really heavy content that it gets into, and I'm leaving it at a 9.
Ben
NiNi?
NiNi
So, I gave it a 9.5, and the reason that I gave it a 9.5 is I often come to this show and to our watches in the spirit of “let things play out and see what happens.” Because of doing this show, I have become a long view kind of person, and so, on an episode-by-episode basis, I now tend to give things a lot more latitude as being links in a chain. I am always the one here being like, “Okay, it did this, but you don't know what they're going to do next. Let's give it some space.” And I think that this show, I think more than any other show that I've watched, has really rewarded that way of processing it for me. The fact that I let it play out, and let it play out, and let it play out, in the end, it tied everything back up that I had noticed.
Ben
I gave the show a 9. It ends ambiguously and the audience does not have consensus. I think that is a totally fine choice, but considering how heavy this show was, I don't know how I feel about how much of the audience just walked away only connecting to the BL romance arc of it, and so it's a 9 for me from a recommendation standpoint. I have to gauge the viewer when I'm recommending it to them, because I don't know that the viewer ends in the same place with the show, and I'm not entirely certain where the show even wants us to land. I think it's fine for the show to turn that mirror back on us at the end as a completely valid choice, but it complicates it as a recommendation.
NiNi
It’s 9 from The Conversation.
Ben
I think a 9 is a valid recommendation from us. It is a worthwhile show to watch if you are okay contemplating suicide and the social impacts of that.
NiNi
Well...should we end on a joke after that?
Shan
[laughs] I was gonna say! Maybe we should not end on such a sad note. [NiNi laughs]
01:13:39 - Outro
Ginny
I am really excited that we're getting more and more genre BL. It's something that I've been eager to see. Me and NiNi probably are the most forgiving viewers. I love seeing shows take wild swings, even if they end up kind of missing. So my feelings overall are: Bring it on, bring us some wacky combinations, give us some things that make us incredibly moody. Let's expand this media world and give us BL with all of these other genre flavors added. I love it.
Shan
I'm agreeing with Ginny on that. I think it's cool to see BL venture outside of the basic middle of the road romcom model that it started in and really try out some new stuff and its storytelling. I do appreciate when shows are going to go into genre that they have a firm grasp on the genre that they're playing in, and that they try to meet the standards and expectations of those genres. I think the shows that we discussed today—mostly—really came to play in the genres that they were in, put together some really interesting, provocative stuff, gave us a lot to think about. And I'm really excited to get more of that in BL.
NiNi
I really enjoy good genre blend. All genres have their own conventions, and I enjoy when people who are writing in those genres are playing with the conventions, and they understand them, and they know how to bend them and twist them, and maybe even in some cases break them. It's interesting watching BL experiment with that—to different levels of success, granted. But I like watching it happen though.
Ben
What I really like about genre blending and BL is it gives these creators a chance to really say something, and there was some of that here. I think the Playboyy team had things they wanted to say, but they made a goddamn mess of it. I walked away from Dead Friend Forever and Love for Love's Sake with a lot that I was thinking about in response to the narrative and the events that the shows wanted to unpack. And even though I didn't manage to finish 7 Days Before Valentine at the time, I was with them for this examination of Sunshine’s character, and the nature of his relationship, and the selfishness at the core of his character and unpacking that.
This was a really cool experience beyond just, “There's two pretty boys. They smile a lot. There's some juice. They're going to kiss.” Which was a really nice change of pace. Despite the sort of mixed responses we may have had here, I really enjoy that the space exists enough to allow the people who have the money to let people try to do stuff like this.
NiNi
Okay, and on that note, that is going to wrap us up on this Genre Grab Bag. Next up in Part 2, we're gonna talk about some Japanese BL.
We out. Say bye to the people—in chorus—1, 2, 3.
Ginny and Shan
Bye.
Ben
Peace. [Ginny laughs]
NiNi
Oh, my God, y’all are so bad at this.
#playboyy the series#love for love's sake#dead friend forever#7 days before valentine#ben and nini's conversations#podcast#the conversation#lgbtq#on art#spring series#thai bl#bl series#korean bl#Spotify
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Thoughts on s3 ep 13!
fucking hell ya'll,, we're almost at the end of this and I simply can't believe it and don't want to believe it simply because I don't want it to end and I don't see how the fuck they're going to tie up all the loose ends in just the next two episodes.
This time around I recorded my reactions to it and it was a lot of yelling and making really weird noises,, but uh, y'know the drill!
Incoherent screaming (this time for real) and spoilers under the cut!
Click here for the audio recording of my initial reaction
WAAAAAH I DON'T EVER WANT TO SEE OMEGA IN PRISON UNIFORMS AGAIN!!!
i forgot they had that baby up in there,, omg
FUCKIN' WAAGHHh why didn't omega try to like access that hatch thing at night?? wouldn't that have been less risky??
this episode stressed me the fuck out,, I have a headache rn holy fuck
EMERIE I'M ON MY HANDS AND KNEES PLEASE DO SOMETHING
wait how the fuck are they going to get that baby through the chute thingy??
Eva is so precious :( I love her so much
Omega has been in there for like probably a day or something and is already making plans to escape, I love her so much
"That's okay, I like a challenge" AAAAA WRECKER WOULD BE SO PROUD!!
Question: why the fuck do they keep taking samples if they know her blood is compatible??
PHEE COME BACK D:
I better see more of Phee somewhere, anywhere, please, I love her so much your honor
ALSDKF;A I FUCKING FORGOT ABOUT RAMPART LMAOOO
Echo!!!! FUCKING HELL!!!! ECHO <3!!!!!
I missed Echo so much,, this episode really just showed that they couldn't have him in it because he would've gotten things done like five episodes ago because he's just that good
Them keeping Rampart is so funny to me idk
He was such a throw away character to me in the other seasons so I this is so hilarious to me, what a silly, pathetic man I need to see him get chewed up by a space animal or something idk
after all this time it was strange to see Crosshair in the background of things but he was still shoving Rampart around and I loved it
I SWEAR TO GO IF I SEE. Y'ALL THIRSTING FOR RAMPART!!! THAT MAN BOMBED KAMINO Y'ALL BEST REMEMBER WHO THE REAL ENEMY IS!!!
Rampart is basically Walmart Kallus
I swear to god, Hunter is getting shorter
Also looks like Crosshair is filling out :( He's finally getting to eat now :((
THEIR ARMOR ALL BLACKENED OUT??? WHAT A LOOK!!
Crosshair's helmet ESPECIALLY, it looks super cool
RAHHHHHH THAT SUPER LONG SHOT OF HUNTER LOOKING AT HIS BLACKENED OUT HELMET AGGUUGGHHHHH
Felt like I was watching an episode of Rebels due to how they were infiltrating the place
How the FUCK did nobody like,, notice?? insane. imperials are so fucking stupid I love that so much.
"Oh I don't think so" FUCKING AAAAA WOW THAT WAS HOT ECHO I LOVE YOU
WHEN WRECKER WAS JUST CHILLING ON HIS PHONE???? STOP. I'M ALREADY IN LOVE WITH THIS MAN!!!! FUCKING RAAGHHHHH
"Where is your captain?" - "Uh, captaining?" WRECKER MI VIDA!!!!
I've said it 100 times and I'll keep fucking saying it,, everything Wrecker does in this season is pure just,, everything he does is amazing, I love him so much, even in the background, him simply breathing?? Iconic. He better stay breathing.
WHEN HE WAS WEARING THE HAT OF THE GUY HE KNOCKED OUT?!?!? MARRY ME.
I know Rampart is stressed out of his mind LMAO bro is getting out of this with gray hair
"It's the only chance we have of finding Omega and freeing those clone prisoners" WHHHATTTTT HUNTER FINALLY THINKING ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN OMEGA??? NO FUCKING WAY!!!
THE WAY CROSSHAIR WENT "he can't go alone" AFTER ECHO VOLUNTEERED TO SNEAK ABOARD THE SCIENCE VESSEL AAAAHHH i'm going to be sick,,
Crosshair and Echo dynamic my beloved
ECHO SLAY
OH MY BELOVED ARC TROOPER!!!!!!
last stretch of the episode had me so fucking stressed
i'm not ready for the next ones
"Negative" and all the Hunter girlies fell to their fucking knees
that was HOT
and stressful as FUCK
losing my mind
Music was insane, omg loved it
WAAAAAAAAAH I CAN'T BELIEVE IT'S ALMOST THE END
AND FUCKING NOT A SIGN OF TECH???? WHAT THE FUCK
THAT'S NOT FAIR THAT THIS SHOW GETS ONLY 3 SEASONS AND FOR MOST OF IT CROSSHAIR, ECHO, AND TECH ARE BARELY IN IT!!! LIKE WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU MEAN THAT TECH IS ABSENT THE WHOLE FUCKING THIRD SEASON ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?????
makes me fucking sick
they need to give us a whole ass season of all of them together being happy on Pabu I swear to god
this episode made me fucking sick ugh
everything sucks man oh my god
#cannot believe this is the third to last episode#i refuse to believe it#tbb#tbb s3#tbb s3 spoilers#tbb spoilers#tbb hunter#tbb crosshair#tbb wrecker#tbb echo#tbb omega#emerie karr#edmon rampart#max's musings
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RIDERS OF BERK | HTTYD SERIES | BREAKING DOWN HICCUP
Blog Post Series: Breaking Down Hiccup
Title: When Lightning Strikes
Ep/Season: Episode 13, Season 1 (Riders of Berk)
Premise:
A strange and fierce lightning storm besets the village, and angry suspicions rouse claims that Toothless is to blame.
WHAT TO ENJOY:
HICCUPS HYPER-FIXATIONS
He's so fixated on the new perches that he nearly drinks dragon poop infested water. Love how Stoick stops him, knowing that his son is so obsessed over the new developments, he ain't thinking.
Hiccup is an ideas man. In todays age, he could be anything. Software designer, architect, engineer, pilot? I mean, the list of career opportunities is endless.
We know that in the final instalment of the franchise, they set out to find New Berk. I feel like that was indicative of the kind of forward trajectory having a chief like Hiccup would cause. Playing to his strengths is what allowed Berk to modernise and who knows, maybe his style of village / town planning is the kind we see in the old Scandinavian Countryside.
It's possible, all the ideas he intended to build on Berk for the dragons he ended up doing at Dragon's Edge like the landing areas and stables. And it's such a clever way to learn and improve designs in their "mock" village during the RTTE season before implementing the same in Berk as we see in the opening of HTTYD 2.
STOICK'S CHIEFLY ADVISE
Maybe I'm looking too much into it, but I think a lot about what Stoick tells Hiccup are probably lessons on chief-ing he picks up as he goes along. Learning mostly through observation and spending time w his dad.
We know that Hiccup's decision in HTTYD: The Hidden World, i.e., to leave Berk to find new pasture, is because Berk is no longer a safe place for its people. The threat from enemies is endless.
This eminent danger is heightened if you watch the TV programmes. Because apart from Drago Bludvist and Grimmel the Grisley, we have Alvin the Treacherous, Dagger the Deranged, Ryker & Viggo Grimborn, Krogan and Johann. The other more treacherous than the last.
At the end of The Hidden World, Hiccup knows that he must let go of Toothless and all the other dragons for everyones safety.
Hiccup becomes a good chief by virtue of all these little moments w his dad. I can even recall a moment in Episode 7, Season 1 (Riders of Berk) : How to Pick your Dragon where Stoick releases this inner monologue. Maybe that's what caused Hiccup to put the village first in the end.
No doubt Hiccup becomes one of the best chiefs because he has learned from the best. Pick and chosen which lessons to keep and which to improve.
FALSE ACCUSATIONS
When a society lacks understanding, it is guided by fear. The village, after incessant accusations by Mildew, goes on a witch hunt for Toothless. They believe that keeping a Night Fury has angered Thor.
They are in a sense, a deeply religious society. And because they don't understand the science of nature i.e., that metal attracts lightning, they believe any explanation pitted against a certain cause.
HTTYD series conflicts go beyond bad guy v good guy. Sometimes, it is your own people you need to deal with.
AMAZING SENSE OF HUMOUR
I've said it before, I'll say it again. ROB has some of the best comedic lines of the franchise.
A MOMENT OF APPRECIATION FOR THESE TWO NUTT-CASES
AND SNOTLOUT & TUFFNUT'S PAYBACK
I know we've discussed Snotlout previously. I know we all agree he's not all that bad. Just a damaged viking really, with a lousy father. His relationship w Hiccup is very up and down. But, I love how he took revenge along w Tuffnutt, who in a sense are pretty mellow in terms of defending Hiccup, until the series progresses.
AND!!! STOICK'S PROTECTIVENESS OVER TOOTHLESS.
A real point of growth here for Stoick to stand between the village and Toothless.
He's a pretty great dad. Don't you think so?
#httyd hiccup#breaking down hiccup#hiccup haddock#httyd#vikings#astrid hofferson#toothless the dragon#riders of berk#dreamworks dragons#hiccup x astrid#character breakdown#httyd fandom#httyd stoick#httyd rob#httyd episode breakdown#httyd father son relationship#httyd series#httyd franchise#hiccstrid#httyd snotlout#httyd tuffnutt#httyd ruffnutt#httyd astrid#httyd ryker#httyd viggo#httyd krogan#httyd drago#httyd grimmel#how to train your dragon
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Rewatching TFP-
Giving you commentary of episode 6 -Masters and Students.
(I would talk about episodes 1 - 5, except I watched them yesterday and it made me realise that they stress me the hell out. Instead I’m going to cover episodes that don’t stress me out nearly as much)
Also I watch Transformers Prime on Stan (I’m pretty sure Stan is only in Australia, but it’s a streaming service and has every episode of TFP), so if any of these time stamps don’t match up, I’m sorry.
~~~~I begin now~~~~
Not saying much about the first part because it’s pretty much as seen.
*intro*
02:52 - scenes like these where it’s just Ratchet and Optimus cannot be viewed without at least one ‘this is proof their marriage certificate exists’ moments.
03:14 - and there it is. Optimus literally just when ‘mm’ and Ratchet immediately switched up his approach, the second approach worked significantly better.
03:44 - I like how you can tell Optimus has significantly larger strides when running compared to Ratchet. He started off further away, but arrived faster and closer.
04:00 - NOTHING BOILS MY BLOOD MORE THAN WHEN MIKO SAID
‘Whoopsie’ LIKE WHO THE FRAG ARE YOU?! WHERE TF DID MIKO GO?!
04:02 - ‘h-what… in the allspark’. Ratchet pronouncing ‘what’ that way is all the proof that’s needed to come to a conclusion that he’s old. Take that clip outta context and everyone witnessing it will know that he’s closer to his deathbed than a mid-life crisis.
04:15 - Not even close to being an accurate comparison.
04:21 - DAMN RIGHT, RATCHET! THEY ARE MAKING A MESS! MIKO BEING WEIRDLY MESSY WITH THE PAINT, BEE AND RAF TRIGGERING FIGHT OR FLIGHT, JACK AND ARCEE… Being weird- I mean.. for the bots, wouldn’t that be like trying to construct a body?
04:27 - then why did you leave it to the last minute, Raf?.
04:34 - Soooo close, Ratchet, but Bulkhead doesn’t need to know about the solar system to help Miko paint, same with Bee needing to know about Volcanoes to assist in constructing a model like that.
04:33 ~ 04:46 - Optimus just standing but like ‘just gonna let him talk it out’
~sorry, not much to say either~
05:55 - I wanna know what Bee’s saying. It seems interesting!
05:58 - Honestly Raf saying that clues me in even less.
06:05 - OPTIMUS’S HAND ON BEE’S SHOULDERRRRR! It’s so big! Aaaaaa
06:06 - Optimus calling Bee awesome.
Also Optimus confirming Bee’s very young.
06:54 - I really like how Peter pronounces ‘Bumblebee’ in Optimus’s voice. Just makes it sound so regal, then you remember it’s the word ‘Bumblebee’. + Optimus had no reason as to choose Bumblebee (aside from plot), Bulkhead was most likely not needed because we saw Miko’s project was pretty much complete and Jack was most likely the only one that would require assistance from Ratchet as Arcee was clearly no help.
07:07 - damn, those two strong as hell.
07:40 - Gotta keep his Bee safe. + he looks so concerned as he watches Optimus walk away.
07:49- Starscream had a whole choreographed dance for ‘rise and serve’
08:15 - I like Skyquake. What a waste. ALSO HE LOWERS HIS UPPER HALF TO TALK TO STARSCREAM, BUT TECHNICALLY HE IS BOWING!
08:55 - LMAO he really just pushed him away.
09:11 - Aww Bee gotta check on Optimusss
09:39 - Optimus just watching them like: 🧍
09:40 - SLAY, SKYQUAKE!
10:11 - Scraaaaaaaaap I love Soundwave’s designnn (I know he shows up earlier in the ep, it was just at this point that I truly stopped to appreciate them)
10:37 - Bee’s eyes are so interesting.
10:50 - Gotta protecc his faaather.
10:56 - Ayo- Bee- WTF?? He really just tapped into his inner insect abilities.
11:01 - Optimus immediately stepping in when Bumblebee was down *cri*
11:04 - He really just threw Bumblebee.
11:30 - Optimus leans in a bit closer when saying ‘vehicle mode’ to Bumblebee. He doesn’t want Skyquake to hear. And Bee kinda perks up as he realises Optimus is right.
11:52 - Ratchet’s inner goat
12:17 - That’s me doing all the work in science because the rest of my group is an idiot.
13:40 - It took me four rewatches to understand that Soundwave repeats ‘must bear witness’ as a command he’s making.
14:00 - of Agent Fowler didn’t show up in this episode, I bet that Optimus and Bee would’ve benefited greatly.
14:22 - Now that I think about it… odds are, Skyquake isn’t calling Bee ‘bug’ because his name is ‘Bumblebee’, instead it’s more likely he called Bee ‘bug’ because he considers him a small inconvenience that could simply be squished. I feel ashamed that it’s taken me this long.
14:39 - Bee’s face rises ever so slightly- he’s obviously happy, it’s just that I never noticed it.
14:58 - See? He’s distracting the bots and giving Skyquake a vehicle mode.
16:33 - Starscream landing so nicely gives me life.
16:58 - he touched da boob.
17:18 - to disagree~ I’m sorry-
18:34 - Oh that must’ve hurt-
18:39 - Father watches son fly off on plane.
18:41 - Father immediately calls in only air support to retrieve son.
18:53 - Bee showing off his surfer skills, but also that he’s smart by committing mid air murder.
19:01 - whoever chose for Bee to make that sound when plummeting to his death, thank you. You couldn’t have chosen a more perfectly silly sound for this very dangerous situation./g
19:04 - yeas, it is, Fowler, so why are you waiting?
19:12 - Bee showing off perfect coordination abilities
19:40 - Damn- Bee teleports now-
19:56 - Optimus condemning the strategy before praising the performance is very smart. I will not explain further
20:08 - I DON’T CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS, TO ME, OPTIMUS SMILED WHEN RATCHET GOT EXCITED.
20:49 - if there’s a remote, why does the volcano have buttons?
21:08 - Optimus engages with a joke.. why does no one mention this?!
M’kay, those were my thoughts.
Lemme know if you thought differently/disagree with my points/have more to add.
I like hearing people’s perspectives.
#transformers#transformers prime#masters and students#episode 6#season 1#ratchet x optimus#that’s mentioned#tfp bumblebee#tfp optimus prime#tfp optimus#tfp starscream#tfp soundwave#okay#I’m gonna use it#maccadam#frag I did it#weirdly stressed about a tag#help??#KWTFP#Transformers Prime Notes#Transformers notes#tfp#Keef watches TFP
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THE EARTHSPARK REVIEW NO ONE ASKED FOR EP:13 "Missed Connection"
This one's my favorite. Head's up. This might be long.
AW THEY PRETENDING TO HAVE ALT MODES THATS SO CUTE
BEE AND ALEX HANGING OUT
"where's-" *explosion*
sounds about right
dramatic af nightshade thank you stellar performance
"the first 5006 tried to destroy me"
THE H A N D F L I P
ew the outdoors
GOD I FEEL TH A T
dot comin in clutch with the mom advice
Alex is too relatable
SCIENCE FICTION?????
I got roasted during the binge with My Binging Buddy because I had a doubt that Alex Malto was autistic in some capacity...i think the roasting was warranted
an additional quote from my third watch through with him for talking about the previous roast "Its like asking if water is wet"
Laying on the table in true Neurodivergent fashion Nightshade
CASUALLY DOXXES AN AUTHOR?????
ah yes go into the creepy woods
oh glowing foreshadowing object
HOLOFORMS CANON HECK YEAH
nightshade followed the weird flying contraption INTO A CRYPT
very smart nightshade thank u
TARANTUALASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
HES SO NICE SOUNDING OMG
oop realizing stereotypes are wrong
how tf did nightshade know that would project all of t h a t
"...missed connection" ROLL CREDITS
the other siblings desperately trying to fix the smart trainer is so cute
equally cute that nightshade is still enthused cause they kinda helped
i love the way tarantulas moves
"ILL PREPARE THE WORKSTATION" OMG NIGHTSHADE MY HEART
tarantulas sounds so h u r t
alt modes as a form of expression is amazing
"it is a gift to know yourself so young..." omg
MONTAGE TIME MONTAGE TIME
THE FUCKING B O W
d o r k
i like the detail that it covers the decepticon symbol
tarantulas wants nightshade to be safe aA
i like this mentor protégé thing
another "hypothetically if i meet a decepticon" conversation
tarantulas no
tARANTULAS D O N T
dang it
NIGHTSHADE ITS OKAY
TARANTULAS P L E A S E
dot is a badass in every situation
The clear fear from cybertronians for something ghost is doing is a nice detail
MEMORY DELETION TECH CONFIRMATION
no nightshade yOU DONT NEED TO APOLOGIZE
THE MISCOMMUNICATION
SOMEONE JUST S A Y SOMETHIN
tarantulas is actually terrifying sometimes
YEAHHHHHHH OWL ALT MODE FANTASTIC
"I WAS NEVER LOST" YEAH NIGHTSHADE GET EM BABY
that took the other maltos a minute
the realization from tarantulas that they are running too
TARANTULAS ALLY MOMENT
NIGHTSHADE GOT SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTOOD THEM ONLY FOR THEM TO BE HUNTED DOWN UGH
i want more tarantulas that is all
#churchshitpostssometimes#transformers#maccadam#tfe#tfes#tfe nightshade#tfe tarantulas#tf earthspark#transformers earthspark#earthspark
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HIII SO i made the Album and Track names for Ellie, RHM and Totally Quality Content! Take your time to read and I hope u enjoy :D
Ellie
Album 1: Dried Up Petals
While this album was short (in terms of tracks), it was widely popular. It was praised for Rose's vocals and personality.
1. Don't Call Me Yours! (single)
2. Deep Red Lipstick (single)
3. Metallic Purple
4. Late Night Sky
5. Ruined
6. Pretty? (Single)
7. I'm In Too Deep
Album 2 : A Shiny Disaster
Ellie Rose's second album was a big hit. It explored the themes of Dried Up Petals in a more deep and compelling way while exploring new ones. The main appeal of A Shiny Disaster is the intense fun and heartache is has.
1. Red Velvet Cake
2. Made Out Of Shiny Plastic
3. Didn't Say Anything (single)
4.Glittery Eyeshadow
5. Truth Or Dare?
6. The Epitome Of Fame (single)
7. Rulebook
8. A Shiny Disaster (single)
9. Charred Boquet Of Flowers
10. Could You?
11. Star-Studded Downfall (bonus track)
Album 3 : Crystal Like Heart
Crystal Like Heart was eclectic. Unlike Rose's two previous album, her third studion album had a different yet similar vibe. Many of the songs leaned into many directions thematically and sonically but still had a feel that made it cohesive.
1. That's Really Harsh
2. Famed Beauty (single)
3. Pixelated
4. Red, Green and Blue
5. Cherry Red Paint
6. Cursive (single)
7. Pink Hearts Around My Name
8. Bubblegum Flavor
9. That's Why I Love You
10. Crystal Like Heart (single)
11. You See More
12. First In Line
13. Dark Blue
Right Hand Man
album 1: Sunset Glow
This album was Right Hand Man's introduction. It's been critically acclaimed for being charming and meaningful.
1. Burning Sensation
2. Rough Times (single)
3. Sunglasses (single)
4. Frozen Soul
5. Grounded
6. Stolen
7. Do Not
8. Flaming Memory
9. Ablaze
10. The Last Thing You Said (single)
11. Last Ditch Effort (bonus track)
Album 2: Let it Fall
Right Hand Man's second album. RHM brought in a new writer (now his husband), Reginald Copperbottom to work on the songs (even being the sole writer of some of the tracks). The general consensus is that the emotions in this album were more real and Copperbottom's lyricism is very expressive.
1. Let's Start Over
2. Through An Artist's Eyes (single)
3. Words
4. We're Something (single)
5. They Call Him Heartless
6. You Know
7. Let It Fall
8. But I Didn't
9. Deadly Lie
10. I Want Nothing At All (single)
11. Intensely Vivid
12. Shatter My Heart
13. Too Much For A Guy
14. Cold (bonus track)
Totally Quality Content
EP 1: A Rollercoaster That Never Ends
The band's first output. They had started out in college and produced their own EP. They eventually signed a record deal and some of the songs on their EP made their way to their first studio album. The EP showed great promise, with a lively yet angsty premise.
1. Peaked In High School
2. The Tale Of A Blond Prince
3. I Wore Your Jacket To Science Class
4. Sure As Hell (That I Know)
5. Tragic End To Our Fable
Album 1: Empty Jar Feeling
TQC's first studio album. Much of their sound and energy was derived from A Rollercoaster That Never Ends but with better production and more storyline focused songs. It was praised for telling relatable stories.
1. The Guitar In The Corner
2. Smile Along (single)
3. I Still Have Your Playlist Saved
4. Broken Prodigy (single)
5. The Last One Standing
6. Courtesy Of The Host
7. The Message You Posted On The Freedom Wall
8. Sure As Hell (That I Know)
9. The Tale Of A Blond Prince (single)
10. Watched From The Wings
11. Blue Pen (bonus track)
12. Headphones And A Jacket (bonus track)
EP 2 : The Performers Bow
TQC's second EP. They are currently working on their second studio album and it is speculated that some of the songs in this EP will appear in the album (like what was done for Empty Jar Feeling.)
1. Whiteboard Scribbles
2. Can't See To See Us
3. The Ballad Of A Unsung Hero
4. Well Why Won't You?
#the henry stickmin collection#henry stickmin#thsc#a cup of coffee and rock au#ellie rose#right hand man#reginald copperbottom#sven svensson#burt curtis#my faves are “Star Studded Downfall” “Through An Artist's Eyes” and “The Tale Of A Blond Prince#btw if u want claim a track or album :D
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Me watching Dangerous Romance Ep 5:
1. Wow. Grandma IS aware of Kanghan's issue with his dad. Good for grandma giving Kang the motivation (and inspiration) he needed to improve himself. 😊
2. Kanghan and Sailom testing the bounciness of the bed. I kennat 😂😂😂
3. Oooh, share bathroom and connected bedrooms. So many dirty thoughts forming already lol 😅😅😅
4. Grandma using Kanghan's old shirt to fix Sailom's bag and selling Kang every chance she gets. If she isn't a shipper, I will lose my sh*t 😅😅😅
5. Sailom, why are you behaving like a blushing maiden? But Kanghan, why are you stripping? 🤣🤣🤣
6. Gods, if I was the driver, the bickering at the back will definitely piss me off lol It's hard enough to concentrate on the road
7. Oh, so June (Nabdao) is a trainee teacher? Man, I don't like romance between student and teacher (even if she is a trainee). On the other hand, Pimpah looks fascinated already.
8. What's with Kanghan and his propensity to phone snatching (only applicable to Sailom's device)? 😅
9. Ah, Engineering. Should have known since this is a BL lol But Kanghan not having a dream is just plain sad.
10. The fvck, Kanghan? It's cute he still thinks he likes Pimfah more than just a friend. But I also just love Sailom's sassiness and turning the sh*t around on Kanghan. Introvert, my ass lol.
11. Saifah calling his little brother out lol But I think it hurt my soul a little when Kanghan seemingly not notice Sailom's getup. Also, Pimfah scoring an unintentional date with Teacher Nabdao is smooooth.
12. Well, that lasted about 5 seconds. But seriously, only 20,000 baht a month for engineering jobs? Damn and here I thought earning only 30,000/mo in my home country's currency as a Science grad is effing laughable.
13. Hmm, there are hints of Sailom getting a uni scholarship abroad in future eps.
14. Whaddya mean it's scary? The bearded dragon looked cute. Although, pooping on Kanghan's shirt ain't cool lol
15. Oh, Teacher Nabdao, as much as I agree with you on Sailom's future his present does not allow him to quit being Kanghan's tutor. Romance aside, he cannot afford to lose this job if he wants to save himself from the loan sharks.
16. I'm sure, after some time, both Kanghan and Sailom will be aware that they are wearing a couple's shirt lol.
17. Uhm, pretty sure everybody else is still pumping their partner's chest, Kang. Just CPR, no mouth-to-mouth resuscitation happening in this open house 😳🫣
18. Guy and Nava. Just literally kiss (each other) and make up lol.
19. Oh, so Sailom originally wanted to be a musician/performer, but due to financial reasons, chose Engineering instead? 😭
20. Kang, you do realise this performance fully demolishes your claim that Sailom is introverted lol Also, where is Pimfah? Did she sneak away to find Teacher Nabdao? 😅 <after a few seonds> oh, nvm, there she is in the audience.
21. And here I thought for a hot minute the Kang forgotten Pimfah. Ah, gods dammit.
22. Wait, I'm confused. Does Pimfah like Sailom??? When? How? Why??? 😭😭😭 This is a love triangle that I didn't expect nor need 😶🌫️
I hope the preview kiss is not Kanghan trying to prevent the (im)possible romance between Sailom and Pimfah 😑
#dangerous romance#dangerous romance ep 5#kanghansailom#kanghan x sailom#kangsailom#perthchimon#perth tanapon#chimon wachirawit
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do you happen to know how tall Ferus and Anakin were as padawans? i need to know for fic reasons.
I did math for this.
TinyTim, why are we doing math?
You might be thinking. Well simple answer to the methods of my madness. The we can use Anakins height to gauge(?) Ferus’ height and create a time table because idk how old they are in your fic :)
Anakin Skywalker
Let’s start from the begin
Jake Lloyd was 9 when he played anakin and was 4’5(135cm(this number was rounded)
Hayden Christiansen was 19 when playing Anakin in ep 2 no was 6’0(182cm)
Now why do we need this information? Basically we’re going to find the average growth (in cm) per year between ages 9-19.
We can take 135cm and divide it by age,9, to give us 15cm. Now this makes sense because you grow a lot from when you were an infant to a young kid but this rapidly growing doesn’t add up when you are older. ( I am not accounting for growth spurts I’m working with a fixed continúes growth) so we 15/2=7.5cm which does mathematically make more sense. So we can set up this equation 7.5x= y which basically means 7.5 times X years (because time is a constant) and Y is height.
Yes we can switch the variables to a different symbol but this makes sense to me, because in my mind, there’s a graph. Very blurry graph but still there :)
Also Give or Take a few cm because no one grows at a constant.
Now we can do the fun part 🤩
By setting up a chart.
9. 135 (4’5)
10. 142.4 (4’8)
11. 150 (4’11)
12. 157.5 (5’2)
13. 165 (5’4)
14. 172.5 (5’7.9 ( technical 5,8)
15. 180 (5’10)
16. 182 (technical 187.5 so 6’1) 6’0
17. 182
18. 182
19. 182
I don’t care that the chart is impractical
Let me explain a little bit also, most boys hit their growth spurt from 12-16 but the chart shows hit it early, good for him ig, Also most boys stop growing at 16 and start growing muscle mass instead of height :) science 🧬
I would make a graph online but I’m too stupid
Ferus Olin
Now the disclaimer I TinyTim am very biased and this is opinion based off of my own and other peoples opinion and my foggy memory.
I always just assumed he was about 2in taller than Anakin
And you can carry this on for when there adults and have him permanently taller. But I like to have fun with it and have him stop around 5’8-5’11 (because I think it’s funny and there’s no way all that stress didn’t do anything to stunt is height yk.)
Now I took 5’8 (177) and divided that by 16 (for already explained reasons) and got a scary number 11.0625 so I just then I divided it by 2= 5.5
So to do this logistically I worked backwards
Chart
16. 177 (5’8)
15. 171.5 (5’6)
14. 166 (5’4)
13. 160.5 (5’2-5’3)
12. 155 (5’0)
11. 149.5 (4’9)
10. 144 (4’7)
Also small thing to keep in mind, which I love to talk about for some reason. Is the 2-3 year age gap (I think it’s 2 but there’s a possibility it could be 3) so when Anakin is 12(5’2) Ferus is (5’4) making him taller ever though he caps at at a not so short short king. Anakin surpasses Ferus at 15 Anakin being 5’10 and Ferus at 5’8
Ok everyone clap now I did it.
#ferus olin#jude watson#star wars#jedi quest#anakin skywalker#height#mathcore#star wars fanfiction#star wars legends#star wars canon#hayden christensen#jake lloyd#star wars facts#character heights#height calculation#Ferus cried about this#Anakin through a party#tru is tall enough to play for the NBA#Siri keeps a picture in her wallet of Ferus crying while anakin pops a bottle of champagne#no he was not allowed to drink any obi wan said no#brain fried#brain smoothing#when Anakin met Roan he told him the whole story#so roan bought a step up stool to mess with him#they postponed the wedding#kidding#Roan loves him very much❤️❤️❤️#padme wonders how she ended up with such a lovable dumbass#we LOVE padme
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Moca watches: TF Earthspark
🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗 🚗
(ep. 11 -14)
Ep. 11 - Hashtag: Oops
Hashtag pointing out that the barn is the only spot that has WiFi before running after Twitch made me chuckle. Nice to see the problems from the first first episode with Robby remains the same XD
Once again FOOD IN THE VEHICLE
I love the way the root mode changes, she looks so pretty!
The memes. *WHEEZE* ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US, the HACKER VOICE I AM LAUGHING, SHE IS GREAT
NIGHTSHADE SWEETIE 😭 They did great they are so awesome just *screams*
The size difference between big sis Twitch, big bro Thrash and the other Terrans is just so cute and cool. Twitch is barely the size of Hashtag's torso 😭
I also expected Dot to freak out more over the altmode.
Also WHAT THE FUCK?!?! IS THAT STARSCREAM?! IS IT SOUNDWAVE?!?! Do these G.H.O.S.T. bitches not keep track over who got detained?!
I am pretty sure there would be BIG CAUSE FOR ALARM IF THEY SUDDENLY HAVE STARSCREAM JAILED WHEN THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SOUNDWAVE THERE
I am just really fucking confused like WHAT IS THIS?!?!????
Ep. 12 - Outtakes
The amount of second hand embarrasment. Camera footage is hell and I stand by that.
Also Jawbreaker is... So cute and so dense and just wants a straightforward answer
Still tho he didn't have to insult Bee like that (even if he didn't mean to). His social skills will require some work
I appreciate Hashtag's enhusiasm but the second hand embarrasment for Jawbreaker is killing me
Also I am p sure that camera is either getting broken by Megs, or Elita and he will escort these two back home.
Also Optimus avoiding cleaning duty is just hilarious and I love it
"EXCUSE ME? RESPECTED ELI-" NO I CANNOT LISTEN I CANNOT WATCH THIS I AM NOT GOING TO SURVIVE THIS, POOR JAWBREAKER
WE GET TO HEAR HOW MEGS GOT HIS ALTMODE YOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Were it not for the fact it would make him sad I would die for Jawbreaker.
Elita-1 had workout routines that are too intense for Optimus. I fucking love this.
T-Cog 101 : CLASSIFIED
"When I feel it in my spark you'll be the first to know"
I swear this show gieves me the warm fuzzies, like there really isn't a need to choose something right away. It's just such a nice message
Ep. 13 - Missed Connection
Nightshade is a mad scientist in making
YO TARANTULASSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Very different interaction than what I expected but honestly? I like it. I'm all here for Dad 2.0 Wheeljack and Science Uncle Tarantulas
ALSO NIGHTSHADE HAS AN ALTMODE NOW AND IT LOOKS SO COOL AAAAAAA
I also really adore the way Tarantulas is animated. His mouthpiece especially, and just movement in general is so cool
I ALSO adored the fact that I was waiting for a betrayal but there was none!
There was no "You foolish protoform I used you for my gain!". Nope, this spider is just tired and wants to live a different life. And he enjoys Nightshade's company and wants to protect them.
And he does end up protecting all of them!
Again, I did not expect this at all, but I enjoyed it immensly
Ep. 14 - Security Protocols
Twitch is so, so worried it breaks my heart
Breakdown and Bee were buddies
Breakdown SACRIFICED HIMSELF SO BEE COULD ESCAPE AND GO INTO HIDING
Also the two of them are like bros, like siblings and BREAKDOWN DID-
Goth dammit THE GUY WAS ON SCREEN FOR ONLY A FEW MOMENTS AND YET I HAVE SO MANY FEELS
And the reaction of the Malto family is just heartbreaking
#moca screeches#moca watches#transformers earthspark#earthspark spoilers#tfe spoilers#this show is so good I love it#continuing it tommorow though because NOPE not binging this time!
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Reveal your Watch and Rewatch List! (BL Edition!!)
Thank you my love @disaster-j for tagging me - This is extremely overdue I know; I had this whole post written out almost 2 weeks ago but then right when I was getting ready to publish this 💖lovely💖 website decided to refresh and my post was lost. I was so mad that I didn't want to re-write it, but here I am anyways.
Currently Watching (I'm extending this to shows that have juuust finished too)
Kinnporsche - It's so fresh in my mind. I have way too many thoughts about this show to put down here, so i'm going to make another post similar to my Not Me Retrospective - all the things that were right and the things that were not. It may not have stuck to the book, and it may not have fully lived up to all the hype and expectations, but it's still unlike any other BL i've seen so far. Gotta commend them for that. Also it's the VegasPete show now, sorry I didn't make the rules. 7/10 (i'm sorry pls don't @me just read my retrospective later)
To My Star 2: Our Untold Stories - talented brilliant incredible amazing show-stopping spectacular...I think she deserves a separate post for herself too. Maybe when i'm not drowning under the guilt of not working on my Dissertation. There wasn't too much angst, the ending wasn't rushed, it was honestly perfect. Imperfect can be perfect too, you know. 11/10
Old Fashion Cupcake - I had low expectations for this so it kind of blew me out of the water. Great acting, incredible chemistry, and that scene in Ep 4 lives rent free in my brain. It's amazing how they (mostly) managed to tell a story in just 5 episodes and still have it feel complete and not unnecessarily rushed. A teensy bit of beef with how the finale went, but there's always something isn't there. 8.5/10
My Secret Love - Pretty mid, like the standard GMMTV sort of fare, featuring My-ponytail-is-my-personality-trait Boy, Walmart Saint Suppapong, Why RU's too-many-couples disease, mildly problematic behavior and a thin excuse of a plot. Still, it's nice to get something banal and light-hearted after all the weekend angst of KP and TMS. The latest ep was surprisingly better and less superficial than all the others so far.
Star and Sky: Sky in my Heart - The sequel to JoongDunk's Star in my Mind, this is typical lighthearted GMMTV stuff ft. P'Mek and debut actor Mark. A series of mini-series' where new couples get to flex their acting muscles a bit and test out their chemistry on the screen. I don't have much to say except it's soft and cute, nothing too groundbreaking.
Looking Forward To
Never Let Me Go (PondPhuwin)
Between Us (BounPrem)
My Only 12% (SantaEarth)
Remember Me (maybe??) (JaFirst)
Happy Ending Outside the Fence
Love in the Air (maybe??)
War of Y (maybe??) (BillySeng and more)
Moonlight Chicken (EarthMix)
Blueming S2 (let's freaking GO)
Rewatch
So. I'm not in the middle of rewatching anything at the moment, frankly I do Not have the time for full rewatches, but when I get in the mood I tend to rewatch specific moments from certain shows instead of full rewatches:
Bad Buddy Ep 5 4/4
Bad Buddy Ep 11
Literally anything from BBS who am I kidding
ATOTS Ep 6 3/4
ATOTS Ep 10 4/4
UWMA EP 2 4/4
Why RU FighterTutor Cut
LBC AePete Cut
WBL Ep 5
WBL 2
Utsukushii Kare Ep 5-6
Semantic Error
Mr. Heart
Light On Me (esp Ep 13)
Tharntype Ep 6/Ep 12
UWMA WinTeam Cut
Blueming Ep 9/Ep 11
TMS 2 Ep 4/Ep 10
OFC Ep 4
Love Is Science? MarkOuwen Cut
2gether Ep 6 3/4-4/4
My Tasty Florida
(Can you guys smell a theme hmmm I wonder🤔) Y'all I'm so sorry about this gotdamn list. It ran away from me. RIP. If anyone actually goes thru this, veterans discount for you. I could probably add more if I stopped to think more but that's where i'm gonna stop for now.
Tagging (I don't rly have friends but): @elevatormusic @whatisgodtoanonbeliever @incandescentflower @liyazaki @onstoryladders @strutforlove @billlkin @7nessasaryevils @excessivelyobssesed @milkpansa @johnnysuhsbathtowel @rythyme @piningbisexuals @ablazenqueen
#watch and rewatch list#bl watch game#bruh i'm saving every few lines#i'm not gonna risk it for the biscuit this time#this whole post is fucking insane#but it's also a good way for me to remember what shows i've seen#bl series#bl drama#thai drama#thai bl#japanese bl#korean bl#kinnporsche the series#kinnporsche#to my star 2: our untold stories#to my star 2#old fashion cupcake#my secret love#star and sky the series#i'm not gonna tag any of the other shows bc let's be real there's about 30 more i've mentioned#this is so lame i hope this gets me some engagement#and if anyone wants to scream at me about any of these shows then pls slide into my DMS or send me an ask#i'm very excitable about this kinda stuff#wheeeeeee
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15 questions/15 people
Got tagged by @lumiereandcogsworth <33 ty! just the distraction I needed!
1. are you named after anyone? Yes, twice over! The Maggie part of my name comes from my mother’s grandmother, Margaret. There’s also a second part to my name I get from my father’s mother. (Fun fact, my brother’s got a name that’s been used for... I think four-five generations at this point KNTRKRTN The name I know my dad by is technically a middle name of his!)
2. when was the last time you cried? Oooofff... hmm. I think watching The end of Campaign 1 [TLOVM people do not click]. Especially the twins bit was my last really big cry. I teared up for TLOVM s2 eps 3 and 4 a lil, but that was just. full gross sobs.
3. do you have kids? Nope! Cats don’t count. I am responsible for 40 corn snakes though :D
4. do you use sarcasm a lot? Oh, yes.
5. what’s the first thing you notice about people? Hmmmmm I’m... not sure? Generally any big identifying features that aren’t eyes. So hair color, tats, silhouette. And even then I suck at identifying people, whoops.
6. what’s your eye color? Blue! They lean towards blue-grey most of the time, but as is the nature of Eyebols they can vary depending on lighting. Not very saturated blues usually, though - leaning slate, darker blue and even soft greenish sometimes. Another fun fact: neither of my parents have blue eyes, so I’m a fun lil recessive trait lucky shot in this way.
7. scary movie or happy endings? Happy endings! I’m a huge coward and cannot watch scary stuff.
8. any special talents? UHHHH writing a super massive longfic has got to count? I can draw decently good, and animate a lil if I have the time for it. wtf qualifies as a special talent uhhhh I know so much shit about dinosaurs you wouldn’t believe it? I apparently have a knack for experimental design, but we’ll see how that develops. I can belch very loud semi-on-command??!?
9. where were you born? Québec! [gonna add the accent on mobile it feels Sinful not having it there].
10. what are your hobbies? Writing, poking at worldbuilding/AUs and meta, drawing rarely, D&D [my lil lv1 D&D1E Cleric might die next session :D], listening to podcasts while I code data.
11. do you have any pets? Yes! Two young cats (Miss Thing and Pam, short for A Mistake or Something and Dopamine respectively) and Crumble, my beardie <33 getting on in years a lil ;;
12. what sports do you play/have you played? not much of a sport person - as a kid I was always the one coming in last on every athletics test. Thankfully my peers usually treated me like a charming class pet instead of bullying me for it, but over two decades in and doctors still haven’t figured out what the fuck is wrong so all physical activity is. eurg.
13. how tall are you? 5′4″!
14. favorite subject in school? take a wild guess - science. Though I only got biology classes in CEGEP, given the pure and applied sciences stream meant taking chem and physics instead :C Drama ended up being a surprising favorite, too, I initially thought I was gonna hate it. Art class was mildly stressful needing to adhere to the deadlines and follow the instructions, but drama? Drama was a fucking blast
15. dream job? sighs wistfully,,,, an academic research position... with tenure... a nice lil lab all my own... easy NSERC grants to fund my research... likely working with birds or reptile cognition. ATM I’m still figuring out exactly what I want my specialty, my niche, to be, but in the moment I’m very interested in how visible phenotype [color and pattern] interacts with the neurobiology of an animal and thus its behavior. Really wanna keep looking at species whose cognition is really overlooked, or has been in the field for a long time. I’d love to work with crocodilians or varanids sometime, or chickens!
tagging: @fatal-blow @mothmoron @cryptidfuckery @rightpastnowhere @katia-dreamer @essayofthoughts @burr-ell @romeoandjulietyouwish @ghostofwhitestone @waltwhitmansbeard @percivalium @angry-velociraptor @ anyone else who wants to be tagged because im Sleeby and going to bed and dont wanna keep looking for people to tag - nini! <3
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Okay so I've been wondering about a couple things since pretty much VegasPete became romantic and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. They're related but I'm going to break them up into two because they're not identical and this is already going to be long lol.
Thing one: do you think (also past but particularly as of ep 14) VegasPete are in a codependent relationship? It seems pretty clear to me (as someone who has been in a codependent relationship formed via trauma bonding yay!), but there are also a couple moments that could be interpreted to not be codependency. One example is Vegas telling Pete he's alright with him leaving in ep 14. I personally think there's a double-meaning there: Vegas is both saying I'm not going to be that person who imprisoned you, it's up to you to make the choice if you want to stay, but also giving him an out by saying I'll survive if you leave now [but if you don't, I will give you my whole heart and if you leave later, I won't survive that]. It's kinda hard to tell, even as someone who has so much trauma myself (part of the reason I have anon on 🤡), what is codependency and what is a trauma response seeing as the two are so interlinked and sometimes indistinguishable.
Also that moment with them in the alley in ep 13... I feel like I don't even need to explain it much. Like Pete was broken both from what Vegas did to him (aka torture) and what Vegas did to him (😏) (Pete: oh shit it's feelings) but still needed Vegas with him. I know their relationship changed a fuckton in 14, but that seems hella codependent to me.
Does this mean they moved out of (or are starting to) whatever toxic thing they had previously (like I'm sorry but "(2 days ago) previously tortured bodyguard and his torturer fall for each other" does not sound like a healthy relationship no matter what anyone says) into another different kind of toxic relationship?
After practically writing a whole freaking scatterbrained essay, my essential question is: based off of your interpretation of the series (and whatever the hell those paragraphs I wrote were trying to explain my thought process), do you think they're codependent and how could that play out further on in the storyline?
~MA (just so you know it's the same person with my next question(s) lol)
First off: I love this ask, I love the critical thinking skills, thank you for sending it to me! Second, while I did study Psychology and am now in the field of Social Work, I do not specialize in intimate relationships. My population is children and my specialization is childhood trauma, so I have some familiarity with these concepts via schooling, research, and some of what I've seen in families - but I have never been a relationship counselor. I'll take a stab at it, but if anyone who knows better wants to correct me, please do so!
Trigger warning for discussions of trauma, abuse, and self-harm. Also, this is a long post that falls somewhere between character analysis and informative ramblings, so if that's not your thing, feel free to skip it!
I also got a strong sense of relationship imbalance and manipulation from them in their earlier episodes. I'm going to avoid using the term codependency, because my understanding is that it's outdated with little to no basis in science. Along with that, I think understanding why it's not the best term here might be helpful in understanding the core of the issue you're describing very articulately.
(Note: I have zero issue with you or anyone else using it to describe things you've personally experienced. If it's what feels most accurate to you, I absolutely don't want to take that away. Labels are tools to be used to the extent that they help us process things. From a clinical perspective, I just try to be as accurate to our current scientific understanding as I can.)
"It's kinda hard to tell... what is codependency and what is a trauma response seeing as the two are so interlinked and sometimes indistinguishable."
This, actually, is the root of it. The DSM doesn't include diagnoses for relationships, because relationship mismanagement is believed to stem from individual distress/disorders. More than that, we need to differentiate the individuals involved to determine their individual conflicts. It's possible that both are struggling with a disorder, but it's also possible that one is responding in a normal way and is struggling due to the effects of the other individual's disorder.
For example, say a friend of mine tells me he's going to self-harm and that he has no one else but me to help him. My instinct is to drop everything to help! Maybe I skip work, or maybe I am up all night with him instead of sleeping. Say this cycle repeats and my friend refuses to - or is unable to - get help from a professional. I am now caught between risking my friend's wellbeing and my own, so I may continue to "accommodate" this behavior of his while doing damage to my own life. In this scenario, my response can actually be considered a normal one, even if it is detrimental. Cutting off our relationship won't solve whatever disorder my friend is struggling with - my skipping work and not sleeping stems from him and the fact that, as a friend, I feel a responsibility to him. It's good to feel some responsibility to your friends! It's just not helpful here because of the root of the issue. In reality, me cutting off our relationship could mandate that my friend get help elsewhere, but it could also have disastrous consequences for both my friend and myself. The solution, either way, is my friend getting the help he needs from someone who can provide that for him, and it isn't my fault as someone who's trying to support him that he's not getting that. However, I also may look at that relationship and say I need to end it for my own wellbeing because my friend's disorder is hurting me, and that's also a normal response.
So: did VegasPete start off as an unhealthy relationship? Absolutely. Was it unhealthy because of codependency? Ehhhh, kinda. I lean more towards it being a problem of Vegas not having any perception of what a healthy relationship should look like. Vegas's father treats him like a pet, so he treats Pete like a pet. I'm almost tempted to diagnose all of these fools at this point. And I know Pete wanted to be with Vegas, but the fact that he left tells me he didn't need it. Yes he was sad after he left - anyone would be after leaving someone they care about. Especially when that person used manipulative language like "I need you" right before he left. And honestly that line is a red flag for manipulation, whether intentional or not, so it was a good move on Pete's part to leave.
What was so interesting to me about VegasPete was how extremely aware Pete is of his position. He wants to help Vegas, but he can only do so much. He knows that. He looks at Vegas and says "it's your choice" or something similar to it so many times I've lost count. He's right - whether or not Vegas heals is on him, and, unless therapists start infiltrating our beloved mafia world, it's on Vegas alone. Pete has done as much as he can by getting Vegas to realize there is a problem and even getting him to the point of thinking about fixing it.
Pete is so very aware that he doesn't deserve the way Vegas treats him, but he's also aware that it's still hurting him (Pete) and not helping Vegas.
There's a model that's used in the mental health world that is often used with clients who have substance use disorders, but applies to anyone with any problem, called Stages of Change. It's exactly what it sounds like - people will not change unless they are internally ready to do so. I like to look at VegasPete through this lens. In episode 11, Vegas has 2 related problems to fix: his position as his father's victim and his position as Pete's abuser. Pete's problem is that he's not being seen as human by Vegas, but still wants to stay with him.
Pre-contemplation: This is Vegas for most of the show. He doesn't realize he has a problem with his father that needs to be fixed. Pete's refusal to be treated as a pet and his refusal to fight gets Vegas thinking for the first time that his relationship with his father is not entirely his own fault, which allows him to start thinking about changing.
Contemplation: I like to think that Vegas "letting" Pete escape only to taser him is part of this stage for Vegas with their relationship. The thought of letting Pete go has crossed his mind, but he's not ready to act on it in any significant way yet. The discussion about Pete's father jolts Vegas out of this stage.
I also think we see Pete in the contemplation stage when they're laying in bed at the very beginning of episode 13. Vegas says "Do you know how sexy you are?" and they have this whole conversation where Pete is just quiet, keeping his thoughts to himself, brain whirring.
Preparation: An individual starts experimenting with small changes. This is the next part of episode 13 - Vegas preparing the food for Pete, Vegas standing up to his father. Vegas agreeing to let Pete out of the handcuffs - on the condition that Pete stay with him.
And Pete is getting there at the same time, when he's talking to himself saying "I didn't want it" and pushing Vegas once after the food incident, realizing he needs to go but wanting to make sure it's necessary.
Vegas is still here in the alley scene, he's saying he's sorry and doing things against his father's orders, but he still wants Pete to be with him. He still pressures him into admitting that he can't kill Vegas. He's still being manipulative. We start to see him move into the next stage when he leaves Pete willingly.
Action: Pete gets here before Vegas does. He punches him in the face and leaves. Yay Pete! He has a bit of an advantage here because he, unlike Vegas, knew what he needed to do for himself from the start.
Vegas gets here when he stops seeking Pete out, and when he stops making it Pete's responsibility to save him. He's self-destructive as hell in episode 14, but it's not at Pete's expense. He's not trying to guilt Pete into staying. I am choosing to take him at face value when he says "If you run now, I'm alright with that." I really hope that means that he'll find other ways to be okay if Pete leaves, even in the future. I don't think he wants to make promises he's not sure he'll be able to keep, so I read this as noncommittal rather than something manipulative like "if you stay I won't let you go." My instinct with Vegas from his past interactions with Pete is that if he'd meant it to be that, he would've said it more clearly. Pete tends to speak in double meanings - Vegas has been very direct. I trust Pete's instincts, too, because he's been so self-aware this whole time. But it's honestly impossible to tell for sure until we see follow through.
Additional note: I also think we see Vegas reach the action stage with his father in episode 14. He would've killed Kinn if he was blindly following his father's orders. He wouldn't have warned Porsche about the upcoming battle. Y'all realize that if Porsche hadn't been there, Gun/Kan wouldn't have died? Vegas was (unintentionally) partially responsible for his father's death. Anyway, we don't really get resolution on this one for obvious reasons, and I will admit we have some mixed signals with Kan/Gun sending Vegas off before the fight, so I might be more hopeful about this than I should be.
Maintenance: We saw this when Pete didn't go after Vegas in the alley. He'd already taken action, and was standing his ground. He hasn't gone back on it, because he only went to Vegas when his problem of being treated as less-than-human was resolved (Vegas telling him he loves him and then leaving).
This is where we're at the end of season 1, too. This is what we need a season 2 for. I don't personally feel like these two are in a position of absolute stability like some people believe because yeah, it takes time - you mentioned that this all happened very fast for them and I agree. What's more important to me and what makes it interesting is that they made it to this place of maintenance very quickly and painfully. They're both clearly willing to work for this. Whether or not they can bear the struggles moving forward remains to be seen, but they're pretty tough so I think they'll be alright.
I'm sorry this is so long and I hope I was able to answer your question here! If not, or if you have any follow-up questions, definitely let me know! This was a lot of fun to think through and I'll be posting a response to your second part soon! <3
Edit: Part 2 is now up!
#tw trauma#tw abuse#tw self harm#vegaspete meta#vegas x pete#vegaspete#vegas theerapanyakul#pete saengtham#kinnporsche meta#meta#kp meta#kinnporsche the series#kinn porsche the series#kp ep 14#kpts ep 14#kinnporsche episode 14#winnie's answers#winnie's words
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The Sunnydale Herald Newsletter, Thursday, May 4th and Friday, May 5th
ANYA: I've been very good for this store. (frowns) If it wasn't for me, Giles would be a terrified old man staring at a quarterly tax statement and wetting himself.
GILES: (insulted) I say, THAT'S an exaggeration.
~~Into the Woods~~
The Sunnydale Herald is looking for at least one new editor. Contributing to the Herald is a great way to get your Buffy on! Find out more here.
[Drabbles & Short Fiction]
A Little More (Done Baking) by apachefirecat (Buffy/Spike, T)
Pissed [and others archived] by Willow25 (Buffy, Spike, Giles, G)
Mesmerised by skargasm (Spike/Stiles Stilinski, Teen Wolf xover, T)
Story Time by Willow25 (Buffy/Spike, G)
Tortie The hunteress by desicat (Buffy/Spike, T)
Graceland Too by Max_n_space (Buffy/Faith, G)
The bride of Dracula by JazzLovesLatte (Giles/OFC, E)
Fleeting Florals by Kalira (Spike/Drusilla, T)
Yours by flootzavut (Buffy/Spike, G)
The Vision by myrabeth (Buffy/Spike, R)
For Science by flootzavut (Buffy/Spike, PG)
Their Will Be Done by Acb6293 (Buffy/Spike, R)
[Chaptered Fiction]
Guardian Who: la nascita del Tredicesimo Guardiano - Ch. 1-2 by Sayman (Dr. Who and ATS xover, Not Rated) Language: Italiano
When the trailer park shakes (I wish it were monsters) - Ch. 1 by LJ94 (wastedperfume) (Faith/Sheila Martini, M)
Waiting for Yesterday - Ch. 2-3 by honeygirl51885 (Buffy/Spike, NC-17) COMPLETE!
Hello from the Other Side - Ch. 3 by Soulburnt (Buffy/Spike, R)
A Place in the Sun - Ch. 3 by honeygirl51885 (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Tortie the Huntress - Ch. 18-21 by Desicat (Buffy/Spike, PG-13) COMPLETE!
Hate to be Lame - Ch. 2 by simmony (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
So One of Us is Living - Ch. 21 by violettathepiratequeen (Buffy/Spike, PG-13)
A Family Room at the Heartbreak Hotel - Ch. 3 by Julikobold (Buffy/Spike, PG-13)
In The Blue Of My Oblivion - Ch. 1-3 by Wojtekstan (Buffy/Spike, Adult Only)
Creative Solutions - Ch. 6 by Harlow Turner (Buffy/Spike, PG-13)
105: Intro To Vampyre - Ch. 4 by Desicat (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
The Witch’s Gift - Ch. 11 by RavenLove12 (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
From Hell with Love - Ch. 7 by temporarytitle (Buffy/Spike, R)
The Slayer's demon-soulmate - Ch. 5 by JSBirsa (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Rise - Ch. 10 by CheekyKitten (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Under The Rubble - Ch. 21 by Geliot99 (Buffy/Spike, R)
Bring Him Home - Ch. 18 by acb6293 (Buffy/Spike, R)
Rewrite - Ch. 33 by hopelesswanderer (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Resurrected - Ch. 8 by Kate (Dawn, Glory, FR15)
Assorted Chapters - Ch. 147 by Manchester (multi xover, ensemble, FR13)
The Joker and the Queen - Ch. 2 by TheSunnySlayer (Buffy/Spike, PG-13)
In The Blue Of My Oblivion - Ch. 2 by Wojtekstan (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Boulevard of Broken Dreams - Ch. 4 by VeroNyxK84 (Buffy/Spike, R)
Dawn the Vampire Slayer - Ch. 7 by LJ94 (Buffy/Spike, R)
I'm Fine - Ch. 8 by Grief Counseling (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
The Home Invasions - Ch. 22-23 by VeroNyxK84 (Buffy/Spike, PG-13)
Sparks - Ch. 6 by Dusty (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
A Family Room at the Heartbreak Hotel - Ch. 3 by Julikobold (Buffy/Spike, PG-13)
Bring Him Home - Ch. 13 by Acb6293 (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
Postcards and Snapshots - Ch. 10 by TheSunnySlayer (Buffy/Spike, PG-13)
The Slayer's demon-soulmate - Ch. 5 by JSBirsa (Buffy/Spike, NC-17)
[Images, Audio & Video]
Manip: Waiting for Yesterday: The Artwork - Ch. 5-6 by honeygirl51885 (Manips: Spike, Buffy, Dawn, worksafe)
Manip: Waiting for Yesterday: The Artwork - Ch. 7 by honeygirl51885 (Buffy/Spike, NSFW)
Artwork: A bear! You made a bear! by jbutt42 (Spike, worksafe)
Gifset: (5.10) “Into the Woods” by whatisyourchildhoodtrauma (Anya, Xander, Giles, worksafe)
Digital: [stake] by sailorgl0om (worksafe)
Gifset: Anthony Stewart Head as Rupert Giles [The Harvest] by 51kas81 (Giles, worksafe)
Announcement: [Lego animator will do a full BTVS ep] once I reach 500 patrons... by Trevor Carlee - BLM (worksafe)
[Community Announcements]
Mini Challenge #1 by thespangelkink
LJ Banner Poll by seasonal_spuffy [new deadline May 6]
Summer of Giles 2023 will be happening! by summer_of_giles
DW Banner Poll by seasonal_spuffy [new deadline May 6]
[Fandom Discussions]
I want to know more about Giles hot girlfriend.... by bakedspoonie
Week 2: chapters 7-11 (pages 120-227) [book club: Odom's Cursed] by Taake
Question - Christmas scene, real or imagined? [in The Body] by The Bronze
Trevor Carlee Lego animations [appreciation] by various
Inca Mummy Girl is Good by Priceless and KingofCretins
Why do you think a slayer was never turned into a vampire? by Kitchen_Panda_4290
Just finished Buffy and... [first time watcher thoughts] by monicagellerr
Season 4 is my favorite! The character development and plot twists are just amazing. by CassiusBlackwood
Buffy season 7 -- didn't the bad guys win? by OGIHR
Does it ever bother anyone that Willow identifies as a lesbian later in the show? by QuantumNinja7
Jenny Calendar Helped Willow (Any weird theories?) by BookwormPhilanthro
Weird theory about Anne Pratt? by Either-Laugh7137
Why do you think Spike never sired anyone? by awesomiste
Spike's Chip [initiative doctor plothole?] by help_itsagain
If Faith had been the only one... by thatblondeyouhate
Did you know that in "Who Are You ?", Sarah Michelle Gellar and Eliza Dushku actually didn't swap bodies irl and just pretended ? 😱 by MynameisntWejdene
Who is your favorite demon? by LittleBabyOprah
Battle of the Higher beings [Glorificus vs Illyria vs Jasmine] by BiggTS
Glory and Caleb. by Holly_Laufeyson
Do they Ever Explain Why Angel is the Only One They Can Curse? by kipcarson37
The sad fate of Lorne actor Andy Hallett by BattleSuper9505
What are the most heartbreaking lines of the series? by Thisisnotforyou11
What do you think of Dawn's speech to Amanda in "Potential"? by jdpm1991
What episodes should I watch? by Chinese-Burn
Help me pick out some episodes to watch [ATS] by Chinese-Burn
[Articles, Interviews, and Other News]
Comic Con North East 2023 Schedule (inc James Marsters, Juliet Landau & Charisma Carpenter) via dontkillspike
James Marsters to Attend Kameha Con in Allen, TX 12-14 May via dontkillspike
Submit a link to be included in the newsletter!
Join the editor team :)
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15 Questions
Thank you so much for thinking of me @imaswellkid you are a wee gem 💕
1 - Are you named after anyone? - No or not that I'm aware of!
2 - When is the last time you cried? - Last night, rewatching Ep 1 of TLOU Sarah's death will never fail to ruin my happiness 😭
3 - Do you have kids? - No currently dealing with infertility.
4 - Do you use sarcasm a lot? - Absolutely.
5 - What is the first thing you notice about people? - If they are rude/unkind to others. Rest assured I will call you out on that shit.
6 - What’s your eye colour? Green 💚
7 - Scary movies or happy endings? - I'm a massive fan of horror films and not so much happy endings, I guess I'm a sucker for pain 🥺
8 - Any special talents? - I can play piano and I'm good at archery.
9 - Where were you born? - Ireland born and raised!
10 - What are your hobbies? - I enjoy reading, writing, live music, and drawing.
11 - Do you have any pets? No, I lost my dog about a year ago 😔
12 - What sports do you play/have you played? - I'm not a huge sports person but I paddle board in the summer if that counts?
13 - How tall are you? - 6ft 1 but I think I'm shrinking lol
14 - Favourite subject in school? - Science and English literature.
15 - Dream job? - I would love start my own business someday.
No pressure tags! @pedgeitopascal @goodwithcheese @frenchiereading @fuckyeahdindjarin @guess-my-next-obsession
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You know. Season 4 is just barely ranking above season 2 for me. And after having done a massive rewatch I can articulate why exactly that is. Both seasons were 13 episode long previews for the following season but didn’t work as a self contained season.
I want to like villain Liz, but it’s coming to late in the season. I’m loosing steam on giving a shit about the Michael trying to find Alex plot because there are no stakes. Even giving us a glimpse of Alex would go a long way. I genuinely do not give a fuck about this isobel tesca plot because it’s so far out of left field. Kyle and Rosa are wonderful and I love them. But Kyle conveniently haven’t info a secret cousin in the know about aliens is some real soap opera nonsense especially because she wound up being completely irrelevant to the seasons plot.
But also, why was the reaction to Liz’s line about needing someone to talk science with to just let her go back to shivani? Why not call oh I dunno. Heath or Charlie? Or actually utelize Allie Meyers in this episode instead of last week’s episode. I want to see OG Liz and RNM Liz on screen doing science together.
I’m with you firmly in the camp of no Malex wedding this season. Frankly I don’t even see an echo wedding happening at this point because those two can’t get on the same page. And yet I am going to torture myself by watching this show to the end. 🍤🍤🍤
And yet I am going to torture myself by watching this show to the end. We're such clowns but stronger than any US Marine lmao
I completely agree with your analsysis here bud! Like maybe if they'd introduced evil!Liz like two eps sooner? Now it just feels rushed like everything else going on! It's annoying! And I agree, there are SO many alien scientists we know in the show already why not USE them?? I s2g if last week was the only ep that Allie is going to be in, I'm going to lose it lol
I genuinely can't see any of the couples getting married at this point, we'll see who they end up forcing...
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