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erikiara80 · 5 months

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Theory: the car crash in the winter of 1976 (Part II)

You can read Part I here

To sum up: my theory is that Joyce had a son with Lonnie, Jonathan, but then she left him because he's an a-hole. She always liked Hopper, so they finally got together and had two kids, Will and El. I think it's possible that the story of Agent Orange is true and maybe that's why Jopper's kids were targeted by Brenner ("Sarah" died in the lab, after all) But then, in 1976 something bad happened and Hopper and El were separated from their family (see Part I). Love this Father and daughter missing.

Not sure if Brenner was involved, but there are hints that Lonnie was. He's heavily paralleled to Billy's father, and in Billy's memory Neil believed that his wife was cheating on him. The first thing Lonnie asks Jon is if Hopper is still chief, and the moment he thinks that Will is dead, he "comes home", calls Joyce babe and tells her that she needs him. I think he didn't just want the money, he wanted his family back. And Will wasn't part of it.

A possible hint in The First Shadow that Lonnie did something to Joyce and her family is the mention of him stealing the baby from the nativity scene. Will has always been associated with Jesus...

It's also interesting, and could be evidence of different timelines, that Will is associated with fire but El is associated with cold water. Maybe Will died in the fire in one timeline, and in another one El drowned in a lake? Maybe they were both in danger but their parents could only save one of them. They both say many times that they can't breath, which is also a parallel with Sarah, so I think it's clear that something bad happened to both of them.

Did Will burn alive? I hope not but... In 3x08, when Joyce hugs him, he says that he can't breath, he's suffocating. In Fred's vision, he sees a coffin with the grandfather clock that has the name Williams engraved on it. And in 4x04 we see Billy/William's tombstone.

El sees Heather being dragged underwater, after Max opens "the floodgates" (Owens mentions them when he explains the anniversary of the event) If Billy is paralleled to Will, Heather is paralleled to El, so maybe this scene shows us what happened to El in the past.

The vanishing of Will Byers and The case of the missing lifeguard are connected.

And when she goes into Billy's memories, there's a transition from the car crash and El in the water. Car in a lake -> El separated from her family.

Hints that Lonnie might've been involved in the car crash

In Lonnie's very first scene, there's a little bike in his house, and Jon checks his trunk. Not a good sign.

After Joyce breaks the wall with the axe, the only thing she sees is her car. Possible hint that after the car crash one of the children was taken away from the family by powers. Time powers... Tears in the fabric of time and space...

That night, when Lonnie arrives, the first thing we see is his car headlights.

Then he closes "the door" that Will used to communicate with his mom, with a hammer. As he talks about the quarry and Joyce freezing to death.

In 2x06, after they bring Will to the lab, after he screams that he feels like he's burning (Hopper is screaming too, but they're using water! Always water and fire) there's a transition to Steve's car, and the song in this scene is Hammer to Fall. In 2x09 Jon mentions Lonnie and the hammer they used to build Castle Byers.

In S4 there's another connection between Lonnie, cars, time loops and the resentment between him and Joyce. When Jon says that the cycle never ends. We see part of the conversation through the broken window of a car.

Other hints

Billy and Max

They both have many parallels with Will, and most of their scenes together take place in the car. Billy's car is actually the first thing we see.

They always fight in that car.

Billy tries to run over the kids. This reminds me of the night Will vanishes

And the scene of Billy's possession IS a parallel to the 1x01 scene. He and Will both run off the road

In 3x07, Billy almost burns alive in his car

In S4, Max confesses that she had wished her brother to die in a car accident

In 2x05, Terry shows El a police car chase!

This scene is so important. I'm working on a new theory, but I'll just say that Terry (or whoever is communicating with El) isn't just randomly switching the channels. She's telling a story. Henry's story and how El got involved.

In fact, she shows El a blonde woman ("Virginia") then the Family Feud score: 91 and 64. Two tens. 10-> mirror of 01. A donut commercial with many identical donuts (ref to the lab kids), the commercial of a Computer Supercenter (the lab/Nina) and then a police chase and someone pouring coffe into a cup. I think this is a huge hint at a car crash that involved Hopper, and what happened after, the blood transfusion that made El a lab kid. I don't know why else Terry would show El a police car chase tbh. And then, in 2x07, Kali calls Hopper policeman, many times. A clear connection with the car chase, imo.

When El looks for the source in S3, the first thing she sees in the eye of the Mind Flayer storm is Billy's damaged car. Since Billy is paralleled to Will, this could mean that the source of everything that happened to their family started with a car crash and powers?

I'm also thinking about this shot in the Vecna game. It looks very similar to a shot in Benny's diner in S4. Jason in a white outfit, like Henry, Christmas lights, a police car, the W and E, and another car with something that looks a lot like the Mind Flayer, looming over it.

And don't forget Joyce and Hopper escaping from Grigori and the engine of the police car literally exploding. And where do they find another car? At a Seven Eleven convenience store, where they meet clerk Rich (like Richard Brenner?) Also, Alexei is with them. A guy in a white outfit, and with a name that is the russian variant of Alex, like Alex P. Keyton, one of the characters played by Michael J. Fox, mentioned by Steve when he and Robin talk about time travels in Back to the Future.

There are many other hints, but I think these ones are the most relevant.

#willel twins #tfs spoilers #will byers #el hopper #jopper #timeline theory #time loop theory #joyce byers #jim hopper #max mayfield #billy hargrove #st analysis #stranger things

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hoony-parker · 2 years

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Okay so I have a Steve Harrington request. I am still obsessed with Season 2 era Steve so could you do one where the reader was there for the whole Billy and Steve fight? Like maybe she stepped in between Lucas and Billy and Billy made a comment about her or hit her or something and that causes Steve to start throwing punches? I know this is long and I apologize but if you could do this, that would be so cool!

notes: aaaaaa thank you for this!! <3. and, yeah, i'm still obsessed with season 2 steve, too. and i made a loooong intro. i apologize. just wanted to get the reader x steve relationship a little straighter than in the last imagine before going straight to the point. i also changed it a bit cuz i was already working on it when i reread the request, and i was almost done. i hope you don't mind. hope you enjoy <3

p.s.: i made a mayfield!reader cuz why the heck not?

warnings: description of blood, injuries, swearing and b*lly insulting reader

pairing: steve harrington x fem!mayfield!reader

w/c: 2.6k (it's a long one heh)

if you didn't think moving to hawkins was a bad idea before, you definitely did now.

now, after meeting a group of little kids that fought some things called demogorgons, when you had only wanted to babysit your little sister peacefully and and watch a movie with her and maybe, if you were feeling bold, buy a pizza and some snacks.

you had seen your mom less and less ever since you moved to indiana and, not feeling okay with leaving max alone at home with both your step dad and billy, you thought that looking after your sister yourself was the safest option.

she loved you, of course. you've become closer once your mother decided to marry that douchebag of a man and forced you two into a new family. you had thought you would love it— to have a family again.

it was a shame to find out your family was now built out of an alcoholic, useless man and his abusive, narcissist son.

and, when you seem to see less and less of your little sister, too, you couldn't help but talk to her, explain your worries to her. max couldn't stop herself from feeling guilt consume her. not after even thinking that leaving you alone with billy or his father at home was a good idea. yes, you were older than her, and yes, you could take care of yourself pretty well. that didn't change the fact that you didn't feel safe at your own home anymore.

so, she'd eventually let you go with her and her friends, kind of taking advantage of your driving privileges, as well. you had been inevitably dragged into the whole upside down mess, too.

you'd find yourself doubting what's real and where the nightmares begin. a child being possessed by a giant mind controller from a parallel word beneath yours? monsters with dog bodies but heads that opened to reveal endless rows of teeth?

that's where steve came in. the previous king of hawkins high had seemingly changed after his traumatic break up with nancy wheeler, the school's good girl. sometime in between all the mess, he'd been dragged into the group, too. and, being one of the only older ones, he forced himself to protect those kids at all costs, which also inclueded you, no matter if you were his same fucking age.

having him near gave you some sort of stability, either way. you hadn't had the honour to meet 'king steve' properly, as you had come to hawkins just in time to see the end of his reign. however, you were glad to have this version of him beside you. if the other one was a jerk, you didn't want to find out.

you had also become fond of the kids. seeing max make friends so easily, when it had been a big struggle in the past, brought you comfort. and, if you needed to do everything in your power to make sure those kids were safe so they could keep making your little sister happy, you'd do anything.

max wasn't stupid, either. she had her suspicions about your sudden closeness to the harrington boy. she had always been protective of you, too— feeling the need of keeping the one thing that brought stability to her life safe, she hadn't been keen on the fact that the former hawkins heartbreaker was a little too close to her older sister.

but, after sharing her concerns with her new friends, dustin was the first one to say that he looked up to steve, and was sure he had changed. he was good, now. better than any other older kid dustin had met, as he was slowly earning the role as dustin's older brother— not that he would share that secret with any of you.

for now, the plan was going great. smoothly enough. you were hiding in joyce's house, eleven appeared, and everything was fine. for now, that is.

you heard the sounds of a car outside, quickly making its way to the front of the house, and you and max simultaniously made your way to the window. "shit," you muttered, turning to the redheaded girl. "that's billy," you told her, to which she nodded. "he can't see us. he'll kill me," she said to lucas, then looked at you. "kill us."

steve stood still for a second, seemingly thinking of what to do, before he quickly trotted to the door, catching your attention. "steve?" you called nerviously. "steve, where are you going?"

he put a hand on the doorknob, turning to you and signalling with his palm for you to stop from coming any closer to him. "just— stay here, okay?" he demanded sternly.

before you could ask him for an explanation, he was out of the door.

you turned to the kids, who where all four of them looking out the window. "what the hell do you think you're doing?" you asked hurriedly, placing a hand on lucas' shoulder. "get away from the window, he'll see you."

"he won't," dustin answered, not even sparing you a look.

you stood a few feet behind, still able to watch what was happening outside, yet far enough to stay away from billy's gaze if he did look your way. "kids, please. stay away from the window," you asked again.

"shh," lucas shushed you, waving you off with his eyes still focused on steve and billy's conversation, deaf to your ears but clear to your eyes.

max turned to you shortly, giving you a hesitant, apologetic smile and turned back.

it wasn't until you saw billy slightly turn his head towards the window, pointing to it with his cigarette, smoke coming out of his mouth as he muttered some words to steve that the kids whipped around to you, ducking down and away from the window. "shit! did he see us?" asked dustin and you gasped, walking backwards until you turned and hid behind the wall.

"shit, steve," you squeezed your eyes shut, catching a glimpse of his body layed on the floor and hilding his stomach in pain.

rushing to the front door to hopefully assist your friend, you jumped back with a gasp when it flew open and you were met with billy, gaze angry and threatening, and the dark in his eyes made your heart sink. he slammed the door shut.

"well, well, well," he said, the silence in his words far from kind, and rather terrifying. billy tilted his head down to meet your eyes, his jaw clenching and the dominating steps he took towards you made you walk bachwards in fear, stumbling over your own feet.

you could see his nostrils flaring from anger, his mood not far from his usual self. even so, having his anger directed to you made your hands shake and breathing accelerate.

the kids where behind you and, when you walked back enough to meet their figures, you opened your arms to keep them behind you, safe. billy looked up, whole demeanor changing when he caught sight of lucas and he harshly pushed you aside to get to him, and your side met with the top of the table, its surface harshly and mercilessly attacking your ribs.

you groaned when you hit the floor, slumped close to the door and you forced yourself up by your elbows, one of your hands caressing the sore skin. "lucas sinclair. what a surprise," he smiled sarcastically, taking more quick steps to them. they didn't move. billy turned to your sister, "i thought i told you to stay away from him, max," he scolded, towering over the shorter girl.

he made a quick turn, walking back to you and crouching down to be closer to your level, one hand on his knee to support his weight, and he pointed an accusative finger to you. "and i thought i told you to keep an eye on her," he greeted through his teeth.

"i'm not a child, billy. i'm not gonna follow your little rules," you spat, sitting up and wincing at the sharp pain on your ribs. you saw his jaw clench again, and waited for a blow, slipping your bottom lip between your teeth. "billy, go away," max said, tone harsh and stern.

you looked at her. her eyes were filled with panic, and her feet almost twitching with want to run and help you up. her hands shook in fear, and that's what kept her in place. billy stood up, walked himself to the middle point between you and your sister and looked at max and back to you. "you disobeyed me," he breathed.

your blood ran cold, "and you know what happens when you disobey me."

"billy..." you called, a simple and weak warning for him to go. he groweled. "i break things," he grabbed lucas by his shirt, lifting him up and walking until the boy's body was met with one of the shelves. you tried to get up. you struggled, groaned and shook when you tried to get yourself up, all the strength you were using useless as the pain forced you back down.

the kids were shouting, begging and pleading for him to stop, only for their requests to get ignored by your step brother.

the door opened behind you, the sound deaf and overlapped by the rest of the loud noise in the room. "hey, hey, are you okay?" the voice asked, and you turned your head to meet steve's figure, crouching down with a slight wince to place his hands under your armpits and help you sit up. you winced. "billy," you said, "help the kids." he looked hesitant for a second. you rolled your eyes, "i'll be fine, harrington. get that psycho away from the children," steve got the order and carefully placed you closer to the wall so you could lean your back on it.

you watched him walk to him, just in time before he could lay a hand on lucas, who had previously kneed him in his lower region. "you're so dead, sinclair! you're dead," billy yelled, looking at lucas straight in the eye.

meanwhile, you placed a hand to the wall behind you, carefully and slowly lifting yourself up from the floor, groans and small cries falling from your lips, and you silenced them by pursing your lips together. when you successfully did so, you rest your back on it and closed your eyes, tilting your head back to catch your breath.

you opened them seconds later, immediately catching max' concerned look. you just smiled, winking at her. the action made her shoulders slump, and she gave you her best smile back.

"no. you are."

steve threw a punch his way and the kids shut up immediately, the only sound being the grunt that came out of billy, crouched down and his face turned to the side, consequence from the force of the blow.

billy laughed manically, getting up and raising his hands up in the air while looking at steve. "looks like you've got some fire in you after all, huh?" his nose was bleeding, and his words even sounded a bit slurry. like steve's punch had dumbed him out.

"i've been waiting to meet this 'king steve' everybody's been telling me so much about," he walked closer.

with the strength you had left, you limped your way to steve, and he ducked when he saw billy lean back to make the punch more powerful. you leaned against a chair, grabbing your side. the kids were cheering for steve.

"hey, billy!" you called loudly, and he turned to you.

steve looked like a deer caught in the headlights, eyes wide and pleading when he met yours. you walked towards billy, steps large and demanding, until your chest almost touched his.

he still looked down at you, his gaze naturally angry and dominating. this time, you didn't care. "cut your crap, and get the hell out of this fuckin' house," you gritted.

billy laughed sarcastically, looking at steve and back to you. "d-don't—" he pointed to the two of you. "don't tell me you two are a thing," he pouts, then smiles, faking excitement. "you and harrington? really, y/n? wow," he laughed again, then turned to steve "everyone told me so much about king steve. was actually lookin' forward to meetin'' the dude, you know? how 'successful' he was with the ladies, how he was a real player. and, still, harrington, still you can't control your whore?"

at this, steve threw another punch at him, then another, and another. billy had to lean on the kitchen counter, where he grabbed one of the plates and smashed it to steve's head, and he bent over in pain and grabbed his head.

billy didn't bother to wipe the blood in his face away. he stomped towards steve and punched him again. "no one tells me what to do," he yelled, punching him once more, until the brunette fell to the floor across the room, defeated and pained. "whoo, come on. get up," billy said, gesturing with his hands and then wiped the sweat on his forehead, grabbing steve by his shirt and throwing fist after fist to his face with no end.

you ran to him from behind, fisting his shirt and trying to pull him away from steve, who laid on the floor, taking the hits, not even bothering to defend himself any longer. you pleaded billy to let go, crying while you grabbed his shoulder and pulled him to you in hopes he'd finally leave steve alone. he didn't budge.

max, in te distance, watched in horror the scene unravel before her eyes and turned to the deskk at her left, catching the sight of one of the syringe, already filled with a tranquilizer in case you needed to use it on will. she grabbed it. "y/n!"

you turned to her. she simply gestured to the object in her hands, and you quickly let go of billy to get ready to catch it. she threw it to you, the needle successfully falling into your hands, and you rapidly turned around, injecting the syringe into billy's neck and pressing the top to let the liquid enter his body.

jumping back and on your feet, you watched as billy stopped, one hand slowly going to his neck, touching the object and taking a hold on it, wincing when he took the needle out. he stood up, turning to you with the syringe in hand. "what the hell is this?" he asked dumbly, voice already slurred from the chemical running through his system. he walked towards you, and you walked backwards with slow steps, anticipating his next moves.

"you little shit, what did you do?" he slurred, stumbling and eyes closing uncoordinated. "what did you do?" he fell to the floor on his back, and you jumped in surprise. when the first shock passed, you looked at steve and immediately went to him. you crouched down, turning him on his back on laying his head on your lap with careful touches. "hey," you whispered. he let out a grunt, and you shushed him. "shh, you're okay. you really outdid yourself out there, huh, harrington?" you laughed weakly, and his head just bobbed a little, trying to pay attention to you, but the unconsciousness was winning the battle.

one hand went to his forehead, tucking the bloody strands away from his sight, and you smiled when you heard him hum in affection.

"i'll take care of you, steve. rest for a while," you assured him.

"you'll be okay."

#steve harrington x reader #steve harrington imagines #steve harrington x you #steve harrington x y/n #steve harrington #stranger things #joe keery #steve harrington fluff #stranger things s4 #steve harrington smut #steve harrington angst #joe keery x reader #steve harrington x fem!reader

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magniloquent-raven · 2 years

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yall wanna be sad about billy with me? come be sad about billy with me

currently thinkin about how similar billy and max can be sometimes. their anger. their tendency to push people away when shit gets hard. after billy's mom left he retreated into himself, into his pain, turned it into anger so he could wield it like a weapon. after billy died, after he left max, she retreated into her guilt. they both decided being alone with their grief was better than letting people in and risking feeling that pain again.

and what gets me...is the parallel between billy breaking free of the mind flayer because el reached out to him, and max getting free of vecna because of her connection with her friends.

like they both have such high emotional walls, but they both care so deeply, and thinking about billy's choice to die for that little bit of emotional connection vs max choosing to live because of it is. hurting me.

#billy hargrove #max mayfield #stranger things #idk there's also something to be said about billy never really getting free of the cycle of abuse he was stuck in #and so he saw violence and sacrifice as his only option because that's just. what he knows #whereas max has explicitly acknowledged that she doesnt want to be like her brother & step dad #and she's been given the space and time to form these friendships outside of her shitty home life #so for her there's just. more to fight for.#am i making any sense? who knows. i was cryin over running up that hill earlier and then this just kinda happened to my brain

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stranger-rants · 10 months

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I need people to understand that billy and jonathans situations arent the same. Yeah they were both abused but jonathan wasnt actively living with his abuser or being neglected by the time the show came around.

And while yeah he was being parentified to an extent, he wasnt having to watch after will 24/7 nor was he at fault for wills actions. Billy was so controlling over max because whatever she did influenced whether or not he got abused.

Billy had no support system, especially not after being moved 2000 miles away from everybody he knows. Jonathan had a mom who cared about him and protected him and got their abuser out of the picture.

There are tons of parallels and similarities between their situations but it isnt fair to act like they were the same.

Just like apples and oranges are both fruits, but taste vastly different... we can acknowledge that Jonathan and Billy both had abusive dads, but also understand that these experiences were not the same. At all. It's ridiculous to even compare the two in this manner.

#asks

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pinkeoni · 2 years

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Why I Think Will Might Kill His Dad

1. The death of every other father figure (+ bonus Billy)

So far every father figure that has had a major role has had a death scene (Hopper was a fakeout but whatevever) and I’m throwing Billy in since he is an older male familial figure to Max, but also parallels Brenner in that he is an abuser like him. Lonnie was Will’s abuser. (btw that isn’t to imply that Hopper and Bob are abusers, it was just convenient to group them all in this little quad)

2. Reference to the Oedipus myth

I made a couple posts recently about how I believe that Vecna gouging out his victims eyes could very likely be an Oedipus reference. This reference is then reinforced when Victor gouges his own eyes out as well.

Yes Oedipus is the guy who fucked his mom, but the myth is a lot more than that. An important part is that he also killed his father. Granted this was by accident, but given how Will is characterized I don’t think that he would willfully kill Lonnie. (although I have considered that Jonathan could kill Lonnie, which he would probably do willingly, and honestly good for him)

3. Will has powers + Lonnie is the demogorgon (fireballing the bad guys)

Sometimes I occassionally revisit the Holy Text (Kaypeace21’s theories about Will’s powers and how the demogorgon represents Lonnie’s) and personally I’m inclined to at least most parts of them. Even if you don’t believe that Will conjured the demogorgon from his imagination, rewatching season 1 there are very clear parallels between the demogorgon and Lonnie’s abuse due to how it’s framed. An example is Jonathan stating “he’s good at hiding” which is implied to be because of Lonnie. Will then spends the whole season hiding from the demogorgon.

And how do you defeat a demogorgon? You fireball it.

It’s been theorized (and blantantly foreshadowed in the show imo) to hell and back that Will has powers and one of them is his fireballs, which is brought up twice in season 1. Will uses his fireball against the demogorgon in the DnD game. Will then explains in a flashback that he needs fireballs to use against the bad guys because “Sometimes, the bad guys are smart too.” Not to say that Lonnie is smart necessarily, but he definitely knows how to manipulate and shift blame onto Will. Maybe this is one of the ways that the show comes “full circle” so to speak— Will uses fireball and kills the real demogorgon.

So here’s how I think it might happen:

Will is trying to confront Lonnie about the abuse he has put him and his family through. But Lonnie starts gaslighting and manipulating him, and trying to shift the blame onto Will, but Will won’t listen to him this time. Maybe the confrontation takes a violent turn, and out of self-defense in an outburst of power Will didn’f know he had— he sets Lonnie on fire killing him.

#will byers #will byers has power #will has powers #byler #and lonnie would deserve it too #all abusers should be lit on fire

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grey-sides · 2 years

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Hey 😁

Hope you're having a good day so far!

I've been thinking more and more about the parallels between Dean and Billy, and I remembered this:

If Billys mom were to show up in his life somehow, how do you think their version of this would go?

Or with Susan, so Billy could give her a piece of his mind about her not doing anything to protect Max or say anything to anyone about Neil's abuse?

I feel like either or would be really interesting.

I also really think Billy deserves to confront the people who have hurt him 😔

Hi!! My day was pretty good, but I was traveling all day so I haven't had a ton of time to think. But...wow, this did make me think in the free time I had.

I think Billy's reaction to his mother would be a lot like Dean's. Billy is still in touch with his child self who is still distraught and betrayed by his mother leaving him. I think older Billy (though still young) would be deeply protective of that hurt part of himself. So I don't think he would give her space to apologize for abandoning him. He would collapse into tears afterwards, but she wouldn't ever get that from him.

Susan, however, is different in my mind. Susan does tell Neil to stop when he hits Billy for losing track of Max. She doesn't strike me as someone who likes what Neil does, but just another victim of his. Bear with me a moment here but I think Susan may be financially abused by Neil. When he skips town in season 4, Susan needs to work two jobs to support her and Max. I don't think in the previous seasons, she was in a position where she could have divorced Neil and cared for two children. I don't know if she would have tried to care for Billy, but she's struggling with just Max in season 4.

I think Susan is less of an issue for Billy. I think she's there, a dumb bitch in his mind who should have seen Neil coming and run in the opposite direction. But that's the problem with people like Neil- they're good at hiding in plain sight until it's too late.

So yeah, that's what I think! I know it's not super popular because a lot of people see Susan as a willing or ignorant participant to Neil's abuse, but I don't think she is. I think she stayed with him to give Max financial security and because he wouldn't hit Max. The family is dysfunctional, but I think Billy's bone lies with his mother.

Thanks for asking!! And yes, we should talk about Billy and Dean parallels because holy shit, they're so similar.

#billy hargrove #iwigyousub #harringrove #because he cries to steve about it tbh #greye talks #stranger things

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pcrfectstorms · 2 years

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;; Discourse on billy hargrove & eddie munson (personals DO NOT reblog!) I want to talk a little about a problem I have with the way both the show runners and the fandom react to certain villain archetypes, and how unsettling I find it. You might not agree with me, and that’s fine, but I am coming at this from a morally neutral place, while still being fully aware of the terrible things Billy has done. That said, there is overlap here between the treatment (by the duffers) of Billy and Eddie that I want to talk about for a hot minute.

Arguably, you could say they are almost foil characters to each other, while having clear parallels and similarities. Both characters were introduced as metal listening bad boys, Joseph himself said in an interview that Eddie was supposed to be meaner -- so we have these two boys who aesthetically are very similar, granted Billy’s look was more polished than Eddie’s (Billy being more hair metal, and Eddie a more heavy metal look) both who come from relative poverty, and abusive households. Billy’s abuse is canon confirmed with his dad’s physical and emotional abuse and Eddie’s implied with the fact he is living with his uncle with no sign of any other parental figure in his life. Which is then again implied in vol 2 when he mentioned how his father was a criminal, so safe to assume that neither of these boys have had a particularly happy childhood.

Of course, it’s clear that Eddie is loved by his uncle, who wants the best for him, so Eddie, unlike Billy, he had someone in his corner; he had a safe adult in his life to protect him. And, here comes the part where I think they are each other’s foil character, both boys come from relatively similar circumstances - absent parents, abusive/toxic parent, and absent parents etc - and yet where they split off into different directions in terms of how they reacted to those circumstances. While Billy turned his hurt and trauma into anger and abusive behaviours (particularly directed at Max), Eddie who had someone in his corner was able to overcome that and his own trauma and hurt turned into a drive to protect and look after other ‘freaks’ like how he takes Dustin and Mike under his wing; he was clearly bullied in school (aren’t all alt kids, hell I know I was) and he wants to protect the ‘little sheepies’ when he didn’t have someone to protect him.

I will say this before I am labelled a ‘Billy Apologist’ that I absolutely hate the way he treated Max and Lucas, it was awful. However, I think that Max to Billy was this kid that came along after his mom abandoned him, so he filtered all his sadness and bitterness into her and resented her, because to him she represented what he lost (his mother, and arguably his childhood to his dad’s abuse). He is terrified of his dad, and his misdirected hurt and anger went on his sister. His dad is both physically and emotionally abusive to him from a very young age, and he grows up experiencing this, while seeing that Max somehow manages to avoid this abuse from her stepdad, and thus so grows his resentment.

Billy did awful things, that is undeniable. But, what the fandom seems to fail to recognise is the impact that abuse can have on a person. He was taught from a young age that aggression and bullying was the only way to be masculine, his dad constantly scolds him for any deviation from masculinity, and makes comments and slurs towards him. Billy absolutely has a lot of internalized homophobia from this, and you may not agree, but Billy was a queer coded character, again, like Eddie was queer coded (and no I don’t mean the ‘hanky’ i doubt that was intentional queer coding and more metalhead culture.)

So, we have two alternative, queer coded, ‘villains’ who come from broken, abusive homes. And the message that we are consistently pushed is that these kids deserve to die. I stand by that neither Billy nor Eddie did not deserve to die. Both Billy and Eddie died as hero’s and yet their arc from villain to hero remains incomplete, for Eddie because no one knows he died a hero besides Dustin apparently, which I won’t even get into because I am furious about how they handled his death – the town still hate him and think he is a murderer, for his hero arc to be a true hero arc everyone should know his ‘sacrifice’ and the townspeople should forgive and clear him name. For Billy, we did get a small resolution with that scene with Max where he is saying sorry, but then he dies and is given no room for a redemption arc with his sister. Eddie dies and is given no room for a redemption arc with the town, and everyone who hated him. Both Billy and Eddie deserved a redemption arc to its fruition; not the half-baked ‘redemption’ we got for either of them - and granted st4 wouldn’t be what it was without Billy’s death, but that is a moot point here.

For me, the biggest issue with both of these deaths is that it continues to perpetuate the narrative that somehow these kids deserved to die because of circumstances that were for the most part beyond their control (poverty, abuse, absentee parents, scapegoating etc). This narrative is harmful in that it pushes the idea onto people who might be in similar circumstances with a message that: you deserve it.

I can’t help but wonder that if Billy had a safe adult in his life to protect him from a young age, that maybe he would not have been such an abusive asshole, (monsters aren’t born; they’re created) but he didn’t – he had no one, he was alone – even while fighting the mind flayer’s possession he was alone, he had no one in his corner, he didn’t stand a chance. Eddie, after he runs at first, also has no one, but unlike Billy the party step in and helps him. Again, these parallels between them show what a difference having a system of support can really make, unfortunately their fates still ultimately ended the same in what I’d say for both is an unjust death with their stories half finished.

So, to sum up, I hate the way that it's framed that people who do terrible things, or are perceived to have done terrible things (in Eddie’s case) don’t deserve redemption. Ultimately, my problem isn’t even so much with Billy and Eddie’s death specifically and more the message that sends to kids watching in similar abusive home situations. The message they are given is that, actually this is your fault, you’re just a bad person, and you deserve to die, you don’t deserve redemption or forgiveness or any space to grow as a person. It’s a message of hopelessness, and while it’s not unique to stranger things, this trope of treating alternative characters plays out in so many other tv shows and movies, ‘the freaks’ are always treated as disposable and throw away characters that aren’t deserving of happiness, forgiveness, or growth. And that is a horrific message to push out in my opinion.

also, if you read this bless you, because my ass went off here omfg.

#// discourse #❛ shit talking ❜ [ ooc ]#// eddie and billy discourse #tw abuse mention #tw death mention

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sterlingarcher23 · 1 year

Text

- Robin and Steve proxy dialog 3 - "combine... up to Eleven" -

Robin: "If only we could just combine."

Steve: "...Combine?"

Robin: "No, think about it. I know exactly what I want and I found the perfect girl but I just can't get the courage to ask her out..."

... Meanwhile you go on like, a million dates and you have no idea what you want."

(That could be a nod towards Mike who does have dates with different people but does not know what he wants - or to Max herself who got into the relationship with Lucas and dumped him several times and she doesn't know what she wants because her being bisexual and polyamorous confuses her. Which would make this dialog a direct conversation between El & Max)

Affirmative hum from Steve.

Robin: "So if we combine-"

Steve: "Ohhhh."

Robin: "All our problems would be solved....

.... Because alone, lets face it-"

Steve: "We totally suck."

Robin: "Completely and utterly."

Eleven is a miss! - The DnD game. And both "suck" fighting Henry separately.

But combined. Blue & Yellow. It was this memory that made Max break free.

That high five that even echoed made Max free herself and physically attack Henry. - It's just the thought of THEM that makes this possible. What can they accomplish "if we combine"

Combine... Fuse...

El and Max, two MKUltras fusing, combining their powers, linking: "So if we combine..."

"... all our problems would be solved.

Combining (Fusion) would solve their problems: Max can feel and see through El/the particles and El's wound would be healed because she's with the one she's meant to be. El would physically die, yes, but it will heal both of them, abilities, sensation and memories shared, every thought and emotion too, healing neurological trauma and mental illness (as hinted at with El's mom and Billy). Love heals.

Just like that:

One thing is certain: what happened to Max is a problem that was created to solve it. It has been made clear that she may never wake up again. When Max says that she can't feel or see anything, Lucas assures her that they'd get her help (El in the hospital: I'm here, Max.) And the script plus her dialog parallels with Henry told us what happened to her, that someone needs to open a door for her to come back (and switching places with her). It's a simple "how will they adress the issue" not "if". And combined all of their problems would be solved.

....

Because, let's face it, this dialog was... Not out of the ordinary, they are close friends, what would Robin and Steve actually accomplish if they play wingman? So, it doesn't come out of nowhere but it's a bit weird nonetheless because how is this supposed to work? Steve drawing Vickie's attention towards Robin?

Besides in the scene in which Robin looks at Vickie, Steve appears in the background and... Does Vickie look at Robin? Or at Steve? Does he draw attention to Robin or to himself? Because there's this worried look (there's another parallel of worried looks).

I have my doubts that them combining would accomplish a lot. On the contrary, Steve could turn out to be a problem for Ronance as he wants Nancy. Except he, well, changes his mind. But who knows. Of course the dialog isn't just made for being a proxy but nonetheless, parallels are not a rare thing, I heard. The relationship parallels are there but parallels doesn't mean it's the same, it's more a mirror. But I digress.

Besides "If only we could just combine" does sound weird in itself, no wonder Steve was confused. The way they worded it, is strange and I pointed out other moments of Robin & Steve's dialogs to be also proxies for other moments concerning El, Max and Lucas.

Thanks to @foxin-around1 who pointed out this dialog to me.

#elmax #max mayfield #stranger things #elmax nation #elmax my beloved #el hopper #elmax supremacy #elmax is real #elmax is endgame #stranger things analysis #robin buckley #steve harrington

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skiplo-wave · 2 years

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(Part 2)

Tag this as Hocus Pocus 2 spoilers!

Also what I mean by people will loose their shit over Cassie's mom reveal, it might piss a lot of people off too.

Sarah sings the full spine chilling come little children song while the Winifred and Mary works on the life lotion. Cassie is tied up and Mike ends up sneaking in undetected at first. What's weird about Cassie and Mike's relationship dynamic is because they share this parallel between Emily and Binx who was siblings. It kinda makes it feel off. Sarah returns and theres this scene of huge crowds of children. Becca is upset and told Izzy she was right about her coping issues and she should had never got into the craft. Billy and Cassie's mother comes up with a plan with Becca and Izzy - the same plan that Max had and it of course backfires. The witches are immune to present day tricks. But luckily Billy tells them about the salt trick. So there's a fight and poor Izzy gets zapped a little but she fought back with salt. Cassie's mom hits Winifred over the head with her own broom. They was unable to destroy the life potion but they save Cassie and the book but now the witches has Mike. They want a trade and they did it because they had no other choice. Cassie tells them to do it. So she goes back with the witches with the book. Mike goes back to the main group. Becca comes up with a plan, because now they got kids showing at the witches house and the life potion is ready. Becca sings the come little children song to deflect them. Now they are following her voice. The witches get angry and briefly are distracted enough so that Cassie's mom can save her and they grab the book.

We get another chase and they are at Max's old house that is now empty. The last fight ends there and into Max's old room. Becca was than able to reverse the spell and destroy the witches. Mike ended up turning back to a human which was shitty because I still say Binx should had lived at the end. Billy goes back to his graveyard and sleeps. They are all celebrated and all is good.

Until at the very end the mother is in the shadows and you hear this creepy as whispers. AND IT ENDS.

THERE WILL BE ANOTHER MOVIE YA'LL.

I think it was good. I wished there was more past characters than there was and I did not like what they did to Cassie's mom. I also did not like the weird Binx and Emily parallel they put between Cassie and Mike that are boyfriend and girlfriend. But other than that it wasn't that bad. Even the cat animation wasn't that bad but Hocus Pocus (1993) did better. You can't beat the original anyway but graphics wise they did better especially with the broom flying scenes.

Lol I still haven’t seen first one

#asks #hocus pocus spoilers

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fantasy-land-and-ocean · 2 years

Text

Steve as the anti - Neil: a Billy and Steve meta

So, I’ve seen a few post about the fight in the Byers home between Steve and Billy and how the scene where Billy smashes a plate over Steve’s head echoes the scene where Billy’s mom throws a plate at Neil in the season 3 memories scene.

I’ve read a lot how Billy parallels his mother in this scene not only because of the plate use and the similar clothing but because Billy believes that Steve is a danger to Max which parallels his mother trying to protect him. What I haven’t seen though is how Steve -unbeknownst to Billy- is actually the opposite of Neil in that scene..

What I mean is that Steve was in the Byers house because he was actually trying to protect Max and the other kids. If Steve wasn’t so adamant that the Party -Max included- did not out themselves in danger, they would be gone for the tunnels and all Billy would have found would have been an empty house...

Don’t get me wrong, I understand how Billy could have misread the situation and there were definitely a lot more going on in that scene but I also feel that Steve acts as an “anti - Neil” in that scene ironically.

One of the reasons why I like the idea of a potential Harringrove dynamic -even as friendship, because I don’t expect anything more- is that Steve expresses the same type of masculinity as Neil such -not exactly the same way because of factors such as class, age, life experiences etc.-, he does so in a way that is healthy and willing to make space for other people’s expressions:

Neil accuses his wife for cheating and hits her for it - Steve accepts that Nancy is in love with someone else and lets her go

Neil is a homophobic duchebag to Billy - Steve accepts his best friend coming out to him and makes her feel safe

Neil is a threat to Billy as a child - Steve risks his life again and again to protect the younger members of his group

Get where I am going? Steve had to unlearn a lot of toxic notions to reach this point where his own conventional form of masculine expression is not a burden to other people. I feel that Billy needs this type of connection with someone that shares some of his father’s traits but is not toxic.

Anyway, as much as I would love for romantic Harringrove to become part of the text, I am also a realist so I hope that at least ~if Billy comes back, which seems pretty possible~ we see Steve and Billy become friends.

#billy hargrove meta #steve harrington meta #Billy Hargrove #steve harrington #harringrove #harringrove meta

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kaypeace21 · 3 years

Text

The kids & teens echo their parents' problematic teachings/mistakes ( narrative analysis).

Brenner (’Papa’) in s1 k*dnapped El (according to Becky/Terry) to makes her into a weapon and spy to "fight the commies". Brenner in s1 also tells her to spy on people using her powers and to repeat the words she hears back to him. El in s3 says she can ″fight” the russians/ “commies” using her powers, spies on the boys and repeats the words she hears- back to Max . And literally in s3 when deciding to go into the void to see the mindflayer; she says a similar phrase brenner said to her in s1 (when discussing her going into the void to interact with the demogorgon). We also see how in s1 she refused to k*ll a cat like Brenner told her to- but in a flashback (between s1-2) she was so desperate for food in the woods she k*lled a squirrel with her powers (something that she felt guilt over).

When Will in a s1 flashback- admits he doesn’t like baseball but is doing it to appease their dad. Jonathan says “don’t like things cause people tell you you’re supposed to. ESPECIALLY not him (Lonnie)” Will in s3 rips up everything he likes-comics, drawings, etc .And smashes castle byers (*which he originally drew/ and later created with jonathan after their dad left* ) using a baseball bat to do so.We also see in s1-2 Will still has a baseball and baseball mitt in his room (showing he really didn’t takes jonathan’s advice to heart).I also talked about how the destruction of cb also hints at Will’s abandonment issues and internalized homo*phobia-here.

Billy flashbacks show he quite literally became his father/ab*ser. When in a baseball-flashback he calls Billy a "p*ssy" we then see young-Billy get into a fight and call another boy a "p*ssy". We see Neil backhand slap his wife in the face- as kid Billy cries "don't hurt her." But than flayed-Billy backhand slapped Max in the face. Max in s2 even mentions Billy hurts her cause he can’t hurt her mother. And in s2 he hit Steve with a plate- mirroring his mother throwing a plate at Neil. In s2 he also shoved Lucas into a bookshelf after Neil did so to him. And in the st novel ‘runaway-max’ Max mentions Billy’s r*cist beliefs were originally from Neil.

We all see how Will parallels to Billy-aka h*mophobic dads forcing their sons named William play to baseball (and the many other parallels). I also think it’s pretty telling that El in s3 is watching Billy in the void flashbacks- evolve into his father/ab*ser (in the same season her and Will are subconsciously mirroring their ab*sive dads). We see she does empathize with Billy to a certain extent. I talked about it in more depth here. But cliffnote version: El uses the term “pretty” for woman she aspires to be like-Nancy was 1 of them in s1. So El cries when describing Billy’s mom as “pretty” cause she knows what it’s like to have a mother figure (Terry) stripped away from you because of an ab*sive father - similar to both her & Billy’s experience .

Max tells Lucas she can be angry like Billy sometimes (aka her nickname ‘mad max’) and never wants to be like him. But after this convo she mimics Billy. Earlier, we see Billy in s2 antagonize max and demand her to “say it. say it!”And later Max yells at Billy “say it! say it” and attacks him with a bat. (Baseball was something Neil taught Billy). Showing that even Neil has influenced her to a certain extent (via Billy’s ab*se of Max). And thus showing the generational cycle of ab*se. And it’s also a parallel to Will; since both vent their anger via a bat.

Jonathan & Billy’s are foils. Foils can be characters with some similarities to highlight a key difference between said characters. They have similarities but the biggest difference between them is: despite similar backgrounds one is a good older brother and the other is not. And obviously jonathan, like other characters loosely paralleled to Billy, aren’t b*gots like Billy.But look at the similarities . Both have homophobic dads who are into baseball , both had their dads shove them into walls, both had a parent abandon them, both are into rock,both are poor, both are attracted to wheeler women,both are older brothers. Both attacked Steve after their younger sibling disappears. Jonathan also tells a story where his dad made him k*ll a rabbit- to " teach him" how to be more like him. Hargrove (Billy's last name) - means "Grove filled with rabbits". And in s4 it's rumored Jonathan works at 'surfer boy" pizza. And who was a surfer boy in s3...billy. I also wanted to breakdown Jonathan & Billy’s fights with Steve ( and how it reflects their father issues… which Steve accidentally triggered):We see Billy and Jonathan both shoved into walls by their father’s . For Billy this is in a direct consequence of Max running away . And for Jonathan- Will’s disappearance (and Jonathan assuming Will ran away to Lonnie’s). Billy first shoves Lucas into the wall similarly to Neil. And both Jonathan and Billy are told to “STOP”.

Billy mimics his mother-by throwing plates at Steve. And we see jonathan before the fight to tell nancy to leave and it’s “not worth it” to argue with Steve. However he stops in his tracks when Steve says he’s “like his father”. Then Steve proceeds to insult his family. And eventually Jonathan who throughout every season is generally portrayed as non confrontational attacks steve.Even when the cops come- Jonathan elbows the cop in the face and kicks steve with handcuffs on and even says handcuffed for the cop to “get off’ (like he told Lonnie earlier -after Lonnie shoved him into the wall).

Both would rather hurt their own fathers-but Steve (and the cops) were used as their proxy instead. The fights might also reflect what the boys have been taught by their fathers-aka vi*lence. Also on some subconscious level jonathan may have been like-oh you think i’m like my dad? I’ll show you what my dad is like (beats steve with no mercy)

With Dustin, his relationship with Dart in s2 echoes his mom's emotional dependence on her cat, Mews. And as Claudia ( his mom) goes searching for Mews - Dustin goes searching for Dart.

Kali , is a deeply nuanced and often kind character- but uses her powers to make Brenner “her papa” be her literal mouth piece when trying to persuade others. Sort of similar to El & Billy repeating words from their papa/dad.

In regards to (Dysfunctional) ROMANCE...

In s1, Nancy says “my parents never loved each other”. Later Jonathan says Nancy is repeating her mom’s mistake of being with someone she doesn’t even love ( by being with Steve). We even see Steve parallel Ted in s2 to hammer down this point . Both give mike advice about “staying on the bench” and the “team”, in s2. This is also another baseball ref, since Ted mentions Mike “striking” out (Steve also had a baseball- trophy in his room, in s1, as another parallel between the 2). Plus, both steve and Ted eat chicken as both wheeler women storm off from the dinner table upset. Both Ted/steve were/are athletes who were rich and older . But the st*ncy relationship does end in s2 -and she doesn’t continue to repeat her mother’s mistakes.

We also see Mike repeating his mother and Nancy’s mistakes -in regards to romance. Mike wears similar shirts as his mom and dad in s3- who are stuck in a loveless marriage. The same season he's in his awkward forced relationship with El. in s3, mother and son are in loveless relationships but are both secretly interested in a dude named William. Yep.

We also have in s3 Mike saying after pissing off El “what did i do wrong?” what did i do wrong?” (2x while eating). Mirroring how Ted after angering Karen says “what did I do? what did i do?” ( 2x while eating).

Or how in s1 Mike encourages El to sit in Ted’s lazeboy saying “that’s where my dad sleeps” .And in s3 -as Karen watches Ted sleep in the laze-boy the lyrics “ I should have walked away “ play. As she holds back tears regretting her decision to be with him .

This is also why Mike tells El romantic love is “something OLD people say” & Mike tells Will “we’re not KIDS anymore” (and says they have to get girlfriends / can’t live together for the rest of their lives). cause he’s just is trying to mimic his parent’s romantic dynamic with El.

And similar to Steve being compared to Ted (Nancy’s dad) to show st*ncy won’t won’t work out. Mike is paralleled to Hopper (El’s dad) to show m*leven won’t work out . EXAMPLES:

* Both saying to El to eat “real food” not “eggos.”

* Saying others are “corrupting her” and in response gals say neither guy respect El’s ability to make “decisions” in regards to romance. Hopper not accepting El wanted to be with Mike ( and wants them to break up) and Mike not accepting she dumped him.

*both burping on couch eating chips. Hopper is on a lazeboy so kind of a loose parallel to ted.

*explaining promise vs com-promise: and making promises. (Hopper even spells it “com-promise” (to make the parallel more obvious). Steve in s2 also makes a “promise” to Nancy after their breakup.

* Both saying her “(New) look …it’s cool”. Also need to point out Nancy called Steve “cool” to his face after their awkward breakup-to break the ice .Just like mike did in relation to El (after their breakup).

* And both saying the look is“bitchin” after El says the new look is “bitchin” ,first.

* El saying to Hopper and Mike “you lie.”

* Max saying “find something that feels like you -NOT HOPPER .NOT MIKE- you.”

* We also had mike be called El’s brother & cousin in s1. And in s2 the 2 are paralleled to Luke/leia (siblings).Plus ,there’s the loose parallel of Joyce (El’s foster mom) & Terry (mom) keeping lights up/El’s room decorations up hoping their kid is alive-sort of Like Mike keeping the blanket fort up & talking to El via walkietalkie (like Joyce with the phones to Will).

In s3 Jonathan is called “mother’s son”, and grabs an axe like Joyce does in s1 . Similarly, Will is called “Lonnie’s kid” ,and in s3 mimics Lonnie by grabbing a bat . Joyce in s3 also wears Jonathan’s s1 shirt. (Comparable, to how Mike wears similar clothes to his parents - and repeats their romantic mistakes- specifically his mother’s). Which begs the question. What romantic mistakes of his mother is jonathan repeating? Well this is going to be A LOT to break down...

Both Jonathan/Joyce make the same romantic mistakes. (which is why j*ncy/j*pper mirror eachother). Murray brings up Lonnie when talking about the potential of J*ancy/J*pper first getting together.Both j*pper and j*ncy get into a yelling match in cars in s3. And Murray asks if both ships are having "lovers quarrels '.

When describing j*pper in the car , Murray says Joyce thinks of Hopper as a “brute” that reminds her of a past "bad relationship" (lonnie) and that she wants to be with a “good guy” (like bob) but that she’s “curious how (Hopper) is in the sac’ - ‘sac’ is slang for bed. Murray also says in the car to j*pper " cut the horsesh*t -and admit your sexual feelings for eachother”. Mirroring In s2 murray saying for j*ncy to " cut the bullsh*t -and share the damn bed '. Notice Murray emphases the physical relationship more than the emotional- saying J*ncy should go to the “bed” and Jopper the ‘sac’ (slang for bed) in order to cut the horse/bull-sh*t.

The first thing we see of j*ncy in s3ep1 is them literally them sharing a bed , half dressed after b*nging, lipstick on Jonathan's face. Then Joyce (wearing jonathan’s s1 shirt)-points to and touches the lipstick on his face. After this J*ncy gets in the car - and as Nancy yells at jonathan to not give her a ‘jonathan byer’s pep talk’, he sighs /agrees , and Nancy applies her lipstick . Showing a stark contrast between their physical chemistry vs emotional chemistry. (And how this connects to Joyce and Jonathan being similar in their romantic entanglements-let me elaborate.)

The shirt Joyce wears in s3 is originally worn in a s1 flashback, where jonathan(in his room) tells Will not to mimic Lonnie’s teachings (about baseball). But also when Jonathan hears his parents arguing on the phone.

We see in s1-present time (after Will goes missing) -Jonathan watching Joyce on the phone begging for Lonnie to respond. Jonathan in s3 specifically gets offended Nancy waited a whole night to call him about an emergency (that may relate to Will)- because when Joyce begged Lonnie to call her back over an emergency about Will- Lonnie never called her back. Heck in s1 & 2 we even have a scene of Joyce getting annoyed at hearing Hopper & Lonnie’s answering machines.

We even have the Nancy applying Lipstick scene parallel the j*ncy phone convo. Nancy saying to not give a Jonathan byers’ “peptalk-right now”/ “lecture-right now” (positive and negative words)cause “ I really don’t need/give a sh*t”.

And maybe it’s a stretch but Jonathan saying to Nancy (while shooting Lonnie’s gun).“ I guess *he ( and my mother* must have loved eachother { at some point}” . Reminds me of Nancy saying to Jonathan in s3 “ I guess *we* just don’t understand eachother {anymore}”.

Jonathan even brought up his father-in his car fight with Nancy. So i believe this line comparison was intentional by the writers. In both the j*ncy/j*pper car fights Lonnie is brought up. Lonnie affects Joyce and Jonathan’s relationships without even having to be around.

Also , yes, I’m aware that neither side was entirely right in the s3 j*ncy fight (nor am I excusing what Jonathan did to Nancy in s1).But let’s break something down- Nancy causes him to lose his job (which he needs to support his family /for his own college-since his dad isn’t around). And then Nancy says “here comes the Oliver twist routine again” (showing she doesn’t care much about his poverty that Oliver and Jonathan share or the fact -similar to Oliver-a parent is gone). Than right after Jonathan brings up his dad-she really put salt in his wounds calling him an “assh*le” (like Nancy called Lonnie- right before jancy first hooked up).

Nancy does apologize and says she never even thought he was like “those assh*les” and “never meant it”. But Jonathan just dismisses the remark by saying she just said it "in anger”- and then jonathan says to Nancy he’s “completely, entirely, mortifying wrong” for the fight. Which -no ... he wasn’t. Even Nancy did a double take at his comment- and Jonathan smirks cause they know it’s bs to patch up their fight. Than Jonathan says to not let it get to her head .which it immediately does as she says “i look forward to you never doubting me again.” But you know he’s probably emulating what Joyce used to say to pacify Lonnie. Cause (similar to Nancy in anger) Lonnie in anger called Joyce “an assh*le” too- while hypocritically attacking her parenting. And Jonathan says nothing to this. But does excuse Nancy for doing so to him-by dismissing it as just anger/the fact she didn’t mean it. what is telling is in that same”assh*le” convo -Lonnie says about Jonathan’s words “ SEE. (cough audience) that’s your mother talking RIGHT THERE”. Again illustrating how he mimics Joyce (especially in dysfunctional romantic dynamics).

The first scene of j*ncy in s3 after “sharing the bed” is even a back to the future ref-a film name dropped in s3 (by steve/robin who mention the creepy parent /son vibes in the film) . Jonathan puts on his pants and trips and falls face first. This in ‘back to the future’ happens to Marty -when a younger-version of his parent hits on him. yikes...

We also know how Billy & Jonathan are foils. SO (another parallel/contrast is)... Billy is attracted to mrs.wheeler cause she subconsciously reminded him of the parent (mother) who abandoned him as a kid. Jonathan is attracted to miss Wheeler ( Nancy) cause subconsciously she reminds him of the parent (father) who abandoned him as a kid. Both are subconsciously getting into unhealthy relationships to fill that void of abandonment-caused by their parent.

*Also people seem to forget part of the reason Jonathan made a move on Nancy In s2 was to PROVE he didn’t have ‘trust issues’ relating to his dad. Which he does.

He’s internalized his parent’s romantic dynamic to a certain extent- he’s just more in the Joyce Role. While Nancy fits more so in the Lonnie role (no I’m not saying she’s as bad Lonnie- it’s just a lose parallel).

It’s especially ironic since he criticized Nancy for “rebelling” and making the same romantic mistakes as her mother. And telling her she’ll just end up with someone like her dad. And that st*ncy will be “like your parents who you found so depressing”. He wasn’t wrong - st*ncy was like karen/ted. But-Yikes. J*ncy is resembling Joyce/Lonnie too. Both Nancy pairings fit Jonathan’s expression of being in a relationship that resembles their parents. ‘Black meet kettle’ (google that expression if confused). Nice work buddy you played yourself XD.

*Also, in s1, during Jonathan’s relationship lecture to Nancy, he throws in the mention of the ‘cul-de-sac’ because Nancy mentioned at the sh**ting range how her parents moved there to make the perfect nuclear family . Symbolically I think it’s fitting that’s where the wheeler-parents moved to since it can translate to ”a route or course leading nowhere.” Nancy also states she thinks her parents never loved eachother (st*ncy-aka Nancy saying she “loved “ steve when she didn’t). She mentions this after Jonathan says he wasn’t around for when his parents supposedly loved eachother (j*ncy- they have strong feelings for eachother-but are just not compatible). But, unlike j*ncy, i don’t think Lonnie ever loved Joyce -but Jonathan despite hating him- thought he must have loved Joyce at some point (despite never seeing proof) . Cause when Nancy says her parents never loved eachother he just says “must have married for some reason?”(aka he assumes love=marriage). So i think both j*ncy & st*ncy loosely parallel their parent’s romantic dynamics (at least to a certain degree). Even the camera angle during the s3 j*ncy fight- emphasizes Nancy’s side profile -reminiscent of the s1 convo where her and jonathan talk about their parent’s messed up relationships.

Ok back to discussing the shirt of Joyce & Jonathan.The shirt Joyce wears that’s originally jonathan’s is shown when Jonathan tells Will not to mimic Lonnie’s teachings / Jonathan hears Joyce arguing with Lonnie via phone. The other time Jonathan grabs the shirt is when he’s in his room (and thinks he hears Joyce on the phone) .It’s also worn by Joyce as she brings attention to the lipstick (which is a symbol of fighting/mostly the physical chemistry of j*ncy). And Joyce also wears this shirt when she picks up the bob drawing and sadly caresses it.

Later (in the same shirt) after Hopper asks her out :Joyce watches cheers (Ep “rescue me”) and jopper is compared to Dianne and fraiser. Diane says as joyce is listening to the tv “He (fraiser) had a couple of sips of Chianti tonight and asked me to marry him.” At dinner Hopper orders a chianti while being stood up by Joyce. And Dianne and Frasier don’t marry and are also not endgame, cause she ditches him at the alter.

The other ep of cheers she watches in s3 was with Bob in a flashback , and was called “ the rebound part 2″ in reference to Fraiser (aka Hopper). He’s just a rebound to Bob-why she’s thinking of Bob after Hopper asked her out. Aka lIke Murray said to her later in s3-she really does want to be with a “nice man” like Bob but goes for men that aren’t necessarily good for her- that she gets in yelling matches with similar to Hopper/Lonnie. Because she’s curious how they’re “like in the SAC”.

Also is it a parallel to Karen & Ted who are together living in a loveless marriage in a cul-de-SACK? like the “sac”?maybeeee... This is the same season Karen (stuck in her loveless marriage) says J*pper is ‘odd’ -but oblivious Ted just puts a hand on her shoulder and says “well you know what they say. Someone for everyone” . Karen turns to Ted, back at j*pper: SIGHS DEEPLY. Ted while jopper stare at eachother: “Holy smokes”.

Also, I’m not saying Nancy & Hopper are as bad as lonnie it’s just a loose comparison- that Joyce & Jonathan lean into relationships that involve a lot of “lover’s quarrels” and s*x (rather than something more emotionally healthy).

You could also argue that m*leven /St*ncy being called bullsh*t (aka not in love) ties to Murray saying about the j*ncy/J*pper “cut the bullsh*t/horseh*t” (as foreshadowing that it’s not healthy either). Nancy even says in s1 : her h**king up with Steve is “b*llshit” as foreshadowing. But in s1, she also says Jonathan’s ‘romantacized excuse’ for wrongly taking her pic was also “b*llshit” so it could be foreshadowing too?

We also see St has this recurrent theme : characters A’s bf/gf paralleling character A’s parent- st*ncy (not endgame),j*ncy( TBD?),m*leven ( TBD?)

Similar to how Nancy/Steve parallels her parents, Nancy/Jonathan parallels his parents, Nancy/steve also parallels Steve’s parents. It’s implied Steve's dad in s1 cheated on steve's mother (but she still stays with him and follows him on his business trips cause she doesn’t trust him to not cheat). Tommy saying it’s a “good call” for her to do so. Making the fact Steve wrongfully assumed Nancy cheated on him (with jonathan) in s1 probably sting more. Steve- even after this wrong assumption is clarified- still doesn’t trust Nancy and echos his mom in s2 saying he could stay in Hawkins for a year-so he can “look after her” and so she won’t “forget (his) pretty face.” Mirroring his mom. Later, after their fight at the party he calls jonathan Nancy’s " other boyfriend' . Showing he always feared inf*delity/Nancy cheating on him with jonathan (after s1). Later after this fight (and or breakup) Tommy is the first to throw it in Steve’s face that Nancy went away with Jonathan. After this- Steve once again- tries to get back with/makeup with Nancy . Not even getting into whether or not they were officially broken up when Nancy ‘left town’ and hooked with jonathan. Cause people on both sides constantly debate it- I constantly go back and forth with myself over the answer ,tbh. Nancy dancing to the lyric “every vow you break” is up to you to interpret. The singer Sting divorced in 1984 (same year as s2) following his affa*r -which is how the song “every breath you take” came to be in the first place. And it’s about spying on your ex and monitoring them- cough like how l*max and m*lven also had spying elements and danced to the song (mindflayer spying). And sort of like Steve wanting to watch Nancy out of romantic insecurity. I'm not dying on either hill tbh on whether st*ncy were already broken up. ( I think the Duffers made it debatable/ambiguous on purpose). The point is Steve mimicked his mother to a certain extent: cause that behavior of staying despite possible infidelity (or just staying despite having so little trust in your partner you assumed they’d cheat unless you watched them) was normalized by her. Either option isn’t healthy.But , regardless, we see Steve actually decides it’s best to be apart-unlike his mother. ps: Steve in s1 called his dad an “a$$h*le” , similar to Lonnie being called that as well.

Similar to how Mike tries to emulate his parent’s dynamics into his own romantic relationship (in s3)-lucas does the same.Lucas' dad in s2 says to Lucas that when his wife is mad the 1st thing he does is apologize and then to buy her whatever she wants. In s3 we see Lucas sort of misinterpret his dad’s words . When giving Mike romantic advice he says "get them some thing pretty that says I'm sorry"(he forgot the whole first step of verbally apologizing and jumps right to the presents just being a symbol for the actual apology) .

In this same s2 convo Lucas asks his dad “what if she’s wrong?” And his dad JOKES “she’s never wrong” . But kid-Lucas takes this literally (when it was clearly a joke). So when Mike asks in s3 “what did I do wrong?”. Lucas says Mike did “nothing” wrong (which Mike most certainly was wrong) and he implies men always have to apologize even if the girl is wrong- so Mike is the “victim”.

And before I hear it.No. I won’t tolerate Lucas hate/villifying here (in comments/reblogs)-so don’t try it! He’s literally a kid in middle school. And every character has flaws that they’re unlearning.I shouldn’t have to say this . It should be obvious - that every character is nuanced and evolving.but there’s a double standard in this fandom when it comes to characters that are poc: we see how people villify Kali despite her good points and than act like Billy is a saint - sigh. And i still remember the weird lucas hate from s1. i don’t want to contribute to that bs in the fandom or be accused of such.Anyways... I digress

The whole point of this post is to analyze parental (& other nuanced characterizations or) dynamics-not ‘attack’ your fav character/ship. Although I’ll be honest most of the ships mentioned- i don’t have much hope for being endgame XD.I love the characters, though.My hope (and assumption) is most of the characters i’ve discussed will see what they’re doing and actively stop repeating their parent’s questionable teachings/dynamics.

Also fun fact- it’s very telling we had the 2 main villains in s1 be 'Papa' (terrorizing el) and a creature that in d&d is a demon called "the deep father" (terrorizing Will). In s1, Nancy even describes the demogorgan as “like a lion” & Lonnie’s name literally means “lion’.

Not to mention all the other parallels between Lonnie and the monsters- which I talked about it here .

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