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emeraldspiral · 1 year

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So, I know that because comic books are designed to go on indefinitely Bruce Wayne can never grow old and retire like he does in Batman Beyond and Joker will never be permanently killed off like he was in Return of the Joker. I think there was even a comic that actually showed that the Batman Beyond future isn’t set in stone by having Tim Drake get kidnapped by the Joker, but then escape unharmed. But like, what if he didn’t? What if the main DC comics continuity actually integrated elements of Return of the Joker into the canon? Like, we already have the Joker being the source of a huge traumatic character redefining moment in Barbara and Jason’s stories, so why not let him do it for Tim Drake?

I think the whole reason they skipped Jason in the DCAU but made Tim a lot more like him than the Tim from the comics is because they knew they weren’t going to be allowed to kill him off like Jason and they felt like that was too important to his character to ignore. But then they ended up putting Tim through something as close to Jason’s brutal murder as they could within the censorship guidelines. I think if it had happened in BTAS instead of Batman Beyond there could’ve been a lot more story to tell, rather than having it just be the setup for a story that takes place decades later. And because it was Tim instead of Jason and because Tim didn’t die, the story would’ve been something completely new rather than an adaptation of the Red Hood storyline that resulted from Jason’s death.

So, what if in the comics there was a whole story arc where Tim Drake goes missing and then Joker debuts a new sidekick, “Joker Jr.” aka “J.J.”?

You could milk that for a while, building it up as a mystery and then a great source of drama when the Batfam realize their new adversary is the missing Tim Drake. Then you have them trying to figure out what happened and how to help Tim. Is he being mind controlled by a machine or a telepath? Or has he been dunked into the same acid bath as Joker and gone completely insane?

Or maybe it’s like what happens to him in the future where Tim is switching back and forth between his identities and no one including him realizes he’s Joker Jr. Maybe he doesn’t even remember the Joker capturing him and anything bad happening. It’s all been repressed so no one knows he went through any trauma and no one suspects a thing until the clues reveal that J.J. can only be Tim.

In the original story we don’t get to actually see the concept of a “Joker fam” play out, and that could’ve been interesting. Joker often gives conflicting information about his background, but it usually involves an abusive father, so putting him in a paternal role might shed some light on what kind of role model he actually had for a parent. Maybe he projects his boyhood trauma onto Tim and either treats him shitty because of his own self-loathing or shows slivers of compassion he wished he’d gotten from his father.

Punchline could replace Harley as Joker’s accomplice in the brainwashing and act as an evil big sister, like a dark parallel to Barbara. She could revel in Tim’s corruption and how much it upsets the people who care about him, or she could view him as a rival for Joker’s attention and approval. Joker could even intentionally pit them against one another.

Whenever Tim gets rescued Joker either doesn't die, or it doesn’t stick, because comics. But then there’s fallout to explore afterward. Like, Tim has to grapple with it for a while, but Bruce is also not handling it well. This is the third time now that the Joker has done something super fucked up to one of his sidekicks. He feels horribly guilty for Jason, Barbara, and Tim, and also worries that Damien might be next. He doesn’t want his loved ones in the line of fire anymore, but he knows already that he can’t make them do anything. Dick and Babs are grown adults and even Damien just does whatever he wants.

So maybe Bruce gets the idea that the only way to force them all to hang up their capes is if he reveals his identity. He’ll claim he coerced them all into helping him so they don’t go to jail, but there would still be consequences for a lot of people. Jim Gordon has to resign and a new corrupt commissioner replaces him. Lucius Fox is indicted and that allows the Powers family to takeover Wayne Enterprises. Alfred has to go into hiding. People start to connect the dots between known associates of Bruce Wayne and deduce the identities of characters like Superman and Catwoman. It’s a huge domino effect. But just as everything is about to implode, this is revealed to just be a hypothetical, like Over the Edge. Batman realizes that even if he were ready to throw everyone else under the bus to protect his sidekicks it wouldn't even work because they’d still have enemies who’d go after them and their families if their covers were blown and they could no longer fight crime.

So Batman realizes the only thing he can do is go to Zatana for help. His relationship with her has been on the rocks ever since he found out she mindwiped him after he walked in on her altering Doctor Light’s mind to make him less dangerous but now he feels like he has no choice but to do something similar to his sidekicks. Of course just mindwiping them wouldn’t work because they still have friends in the Justice League, the Titans, and several other groups who wouldn’t universally agree to keep it a secret. So the only solution would be for Zatana to do some kind of Spiderman No Way Home spell that makes EVERYONE forget all of Batman’s sidekicks.

And just to make sure none of them can ever discover his identity and ask to join his crusade again, he makes them all believe he was an abusive alcoholic who they cut out of their lives. In fact, they believe there was a high-profile lawsuit between Bruce and Dick that resulted in Dick becoming Tim and Damien’s new legal guardian and moving with them to Bludhaven. Dick thinks he didn’t want to depend on the trust fund Bruce set up for him so he started his own company. Barbara believes she was an intern for Bruce Wayne but quit because he was a toxic boss. Jason believes he ran away from home and became a mechanic after a big blowout with Bruce, but still keeps in touch with the other boys. Damien doesn’t remember his mother or grandfather or the League of Assassins at all, he thinks he lived a normal life as the child of a billionaire playboy and a random fling and gets along with Tim and the others just fine. Alfred and Bruce believe Bruce somehow kept his secret from Dick and the others for many years before deciding to purposefully act like a bad parent to drive them all away because he knew the danger was always there and he didn’t feel like he could be the guardian they deserved dividing his time between them and the double-life they couldn’t know about. Only Zatana knows the truth.

So Bruce continues doing his thing as a solo act while the rest of the Batfam are living normal lives. But over time they all end up getting back into vigilantism despite everything Bruce did to keep his influence away from them. Barbara gets interested in politics and running for public office as a means of improving the city, but when her campaign fails she finds she can do more as Oracle. Dick can’t help but intervene when he sees a mugging on the streets of Bludhaven and feels compelled to keep going out to fight crime to make the streets safe for his brothers. Car thieves bring a vehicle to Jason’s shop to be stripped for parts and when he realizes it was stolen from a friend of his who was murdered they try to kill him, forcing him to go to Dick’s to hide out.

Neither Jason nor Dick trust the police to take care of the car theft ring and decide to try and deal with it together. Tim and Damien know something is up despite their efforts to hide it from them and end up following them to a confrontation with the gang. None of them remember their training so they’re in over their heads, but fortunately Black Canary shows up, having been recruited by Barbara to deal with the car theft ring. Canary sees the boys’ potential and starts training them and Barbara and we end up with a Birds of Prey team consisting of Oracle, Black Canary, and quadruple Robins, which tuns into quintuple Robins when Stephanie Brown later joins them. Also, we find out that Dinah Drake and Tim Drake are related and Tim has the same superpower.

Bruce instinctively worries about these new young heroes taken under Black Canary’s wing before he even learns they’re his estranged kids. He confronts her about it but she tells him they’re all making their own choices and she can’t stop them. She can only give them the guidance they need to do what they’re doing as safely as possible. When he does learn their identities and they learn his there’s a lot of drama and angst over Bruce lying to them, being shitty on purpose, and finding out for the first time how much he actually loves them and is proud of them.

The Joker reenters the picture after having been thought dead since the end of the inciting arc with Tim, and this leads to a Joker Jr. relapse. Everyone’s confused as to how Tim could have this repressed split personality/DNA overwriting microchip implant when he’s only met the Joker recently and never been alone with him. Investigating uncovers evidence of mental tampering which eventually leads back to Zatana, who gives everyone the truth. Seeing as how the charade didn’t stop the Batfam from becoming vigilantes again or erase the trauma hiding deep within Tim’s psyche, it seems pointless to keep the spell going, so Zatana restores everyone’s memories.

But it’s not just a hard reset to back before she cast the spell. The whole scandal of Bruce and Dick’s custody battle that tarnished Bruce’s public image is still in the public conscious. Even after announcing that Bruce has cleaned up his act and the boys have reconciled and moved back in with him a lot of people still think Bruce is a dirtbag. Barbara finds she prefers being Oracle to Batgirl and pursuing a career in politics instead of being Batman’s sidekick. Damien still remembers being a normal kid and enjoying normal kid things and is much more well-adjusted. Jason still works as a mechanic and Dick still has his own company and they maintain relationships with workplace associates introduced in this arc. Tim still has to grapple with what Joker did to him, but he also has a strong relationship with “Aunt Dinah” now and a Canary Cry. So he decides it’s finally time to concede the Robin identity to Damien and step out of Bruce’s shadow to create a new identity like Dick, Jason, and Barbara before him.

IDK what his new name could be. “Red Canary” almost sounds like it would work because it’s like when he went by “Red Robin” (Yummm!) combined with his new superpower and relationship with Black Canary. But at the same time, it’s still a derivative sidekick name an not an independent identity like Nightwing, Red Hood, or Oracle. Also, there’s already a Red Canary who was just introduced. I think she’s from another universe, but it still doesn’t really make sense to give Tim a new name so he doesn’t have to share an identity with Damien, but then make him share his new one with someone else.

#batman #robin #nightwing #batgirl #barbara gordon #dick grayson #tim drake #jason todd #damien wayne #the joker #punchline #bruce wayne #zatana #dc #dc comics

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quandaryqueen · 2 years

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Ok last one, sorry for spam-

YJ, BTAS and Harley Quinn Riddler trying to earn hero's trust starts working with them to lure them into trap. Surprise, suprise they fall for each other but the other rogue that they made made a deal with still goes with plan. Hero after hearing truth just gives him look of total heartbroke and betrayal before successfully running away. How the story ends I give choice to you.

Using you

Edward Nygma X Hero Reader

Whatever he was planning, it needed your involvement, he carve himself a soft spot in your heart and break it at the time of his need without much of a thought about your feelings... Or so he thought.

For the first time you opened up to someone about the heroism and what it means to you as a person. Ironically, he's of the opposing side and yet he was the only one you can ever talk to him about it, how tasking it was the your health, how it limits your interactions, how selfish and guilty you often feel for feeling like this.

Having been instilled that with your ability came the responsibility of using it for the entirety of people you didn't even know. Their praises were uplifting for a while, but it didn't take long until the articles written about you and your performance started to take a toll. You began to focus on the negative media coverage, your collateral damages, how you weren't fast enough to save some civilians, etc etc.

And for a moment you felt understood, in a way, accepted. He validates your feelings, makes you feel as though it is okay to think that sometimes you don't want to be a hero, that you needed a break. How he lifted your spirits up with riddles and jokes, how he'd whisk you up for an impromptu dance, small talks... It made you feel the sense of normalcy you've been yearning. And the companionship you've long desired.

As a hero you really can't open up to someone, afraid of putting them in harm's way out of your selfish need to vent. For awhile, you pushed Edward away for that sole purpose. That, and the fact he's one of the people you fight against, how he can use these intel against you.

And you were stupid for not pushing him hard enough.

💚 Young Justice

The moment he got what he wanted, he never looked back. He was too ashamed to look at the face that made him smile when he made you smile. And to be the root of your despair cuts him wrong. He should be telling you riddles or jokes to make you smile-- not whatever this is.

He is ashamed and guilty, but he doesn't take any sorts of accountability. He acknowledges what he had done was low, he knows how it hurt you, but god now he got what he wanted! This operation has been always about getting what the Light wanted and he can finally get the recognition he deserves!

... But to look back at the time, where he had the iron-willed hero cry on his lap, their well-constructed façade cracking and collapsing under its weight... To be told 'i love you', by the face of the enemy he has to fight, who finally found solace for once in their life, only for it to be counterfeit... It makes his chest clutch.

He can't even look at you, let alone talk to you. He didn't need to, he can feel you seethe in rage and simmer in betrayal. He was dead to you. And he knows you will keep to yourself out of fear of this happening again. He destroyed you for the second time and apologizing was useless.

What he had done to you, cuts deep beyond any foes, beyond words.

"I hope you know that you'll be the reason why I can never trust anyone and feel comfort again." Your voice was trapped between your strained throat, weak but powerful enough to get a point across. "Hope it's worth it."

💚 Batman the animated series

He turns to you with zero reluctance, confronting you, subjecting you into the most hurtful revelation and he watches you collapse with a smile. Deep within his outstretched lips, was a man hiding his tears. He had no right to cry, not when you're the one who is hurt.

The hero in particular, was but another bird under the Bat's wing. At constant pressure, maintain their image of inflicting fear by doing little, let their presence alone halt those who crawl in the night. You were never going to be Batman and it deeply wounds you, as none of the Gotham rogue would ever be afraid of you as much as they are with your mentor.

Not knowing who to confide to, you were so desperate to be heard by anyone, you resort to talk to the Riddler. You didn't even think about what it means when you put him through a field of your feelings, a deep delve into your insecurities, be vulnerable to a man who is capable of killing you with the knowledge... Oh how naïve you were.

"I trusted you, Edward... How could you do this to me?" Beneath the strain of your throat, you painfully squeaked out with your eyes swelling to keep your tears in.

Your high pitched voice were nails on a chalkboard for Eddie, shredding his heart and it didn't show. He maintains his treacherous front. Hate him, he deserves it. Hate him forever and learn from it.

💚 Harley Quinn

He likes to think he formed the mutual attachment you felt with him, was not mutual at all. That you were moronic to think that he, the Riddler, a fucking villain, would ever feel so sorry for a hero who gets constantly shit on by the whole wide world.

"I mean really? You're crying onto me about your fucking life like 'Waaah! Waaah! Oh Eddie they were horrible!' seriously! Grow a pair and face the real world, of course they're going to tell you that you're a fucking moron for failing to rescue others! Welcome to the real world!"

That's not what he said when you were sobbing on his chest. That's not how he acted when you sobbed about the world chewing you out for the littlest mistake. He was running his finger on your back, holding you close, telling you that they were the morons for being ungrateful.

And to see you barely keeping it in, he wanted nothing more than to pull you close and whisper that everything is going to be alright... But it's him. He's the reason why you're crying, why you're probably going to be next in line with Batman at the "emotionally constipated superhero" club.

"I WISH I NEVER MET YOU!"

He wasn't able to relay how he truly felt, until you screamed at him. You didn't have to see him, you knew he never wanted to ease you from your struggles, to love you as you loved him and so you took off. And when you disappeared, he swallows thickly and shook his head. There was no way he'd be found sobbing in regret on the rooftop.

A/N: Ugh, gosh I think my angst writing is rusty. But aye, at least I managed.

#edward nygma #riddler x reader #dc x reader #dc x you #edward nygma x reader #harley quinn series #harley quinn riddler #young justice riddler x reader #young justice riddler #btas riddler x reader #btas riddler #request #patisilence

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vveakfish · 6 months

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re: tags on lrb

thinking abt the journey and a half my DC hyperfixation has been.

I was a DCAU only girlie for so long. (BTAS, Batman Beyond, Teen Titans, YJtv, GLtv). I enjoyed the DCEU too, but i was WAY too wrapped up in MCU brain-rot to dive too deeply into those. But that was it. Zero interest in comics themselves as a lil squirt.

Eventually I stopped caring abt the DCEU entirely. (around WW’84, tho it had nothing to do with that movie, i just never saw it — and didnt see any of the movies that came after). And got WAY into Marvel™. And i kinda just rode that wave.

When Marvel started branching out into shows i was HYPED — esp since they started that shit off with WandVision. I’d always loved Wanda, and the fact that they brought Billy and Tommy in was all i needed to push me into reading comics

i tore through the young avengers (UGH i miss them <;/3), and other titles associated with them, and was having a blast. At some point around the season finale of Loki (good show, this was just also how the cookie crumbled) I just fell off Marvel in general. A lot of this probably had to do with school ramping up around this time — but i stopped reading comics & watching their shows and movies almost entirely.

Around this time tho, bc i Missed reading comics — i started reading webcomics. And as much as i enjoyed reading Marvel comics for that short period of time, webcomics were what made me fall in love with Comics™ as a medium.

6th semester ended, i was elbows deep in world building for my own webcomic project, and started watching anime while working on it. Again, anime was always one of those things i enjoyed (Digimon, Sailor Moon, and Pokémon were some of the most influential pieces of media in my entire childhood), but my love for it as an art form was really solidified during this time

[side note: can you Tell i was dealing with art school shit during all of this? couldn’t turn the critique brain off literally Ever, so anything i enjoyed got put under the art student lens]

But my interest in anime stayed entirely on the animated side of things for a Long Ass Time. It wasn’t until Jujutsu Kaisen that i got shoved headlong into manga. God that stupid fucking anime changed my life, ANYWAY.

I finished the anime (umm maybe like. 5 times), and then HAD to know what happened next. So i devoured the manga. Every spare moment i had was spent reading it, until i was Done. then i was like orz. what do u do now ??

The answer was do the exact same thing with Demon Slayer. which was ALSO a life changing experience. read 鬼滅の刃 pls pls pls

Now. When i finished KNY, i was also like *head in hands* how do i even keep on living?? But this was also while working on my thesis project, and still doing a lot of work on the side as far as my own comic was concerned. (like… 60k words worth of world building & drafting scripts + designing characters), so its not like i had all that much free time.

anyway — i finished up my 8th semester, and barely gave myself a chance to breathe before i threw myself into working on my comic practically full time.

I was working on a one shot to submit to a contest for Webtoon, and they were asking for a pretty substantial amount of content (60+ panel Action comic one shot. and I, as always, love to make things harder on myself, so i think in one of the later drafts it ended up having over 100 panels).

needless to say, i Did Not finish the oneshot in time (its still not done to this day T~T i’ll come back for you forge, dont worry). But, toward the end of that… 3 month span of feverishly working on this project, i found myself falling in love with DC all over again.

I mentioned YJtv before, but that show was Also something that changed my life as a 10 year old.

(its really funny to think about that show now & how it’s release date lines up with the beginning of the N52 continuity, and how both the show & that particular reboot are so strongly disliked by a vast majority of DC’s fanbase — but thats a post for another day)

I’ve rewatched the show at least once a year since my roommate let me start using their HBOMax login. I know seasons 1 and 2 like the back of my hand bc of how much i watched them growing up, and i like season three well enough. But the thing was that on this unsuspecting summer night, i was about to discover that there were New Episodes.

Dude i was hyped, i was losing my shit. I had resigned myself to the knowledge that this show was never coming back. I was okay with it too. But here it was, alive and kicking after what felt like forever.

Heres the thing tho. They killed off Kon.

okay not really, but at the Time boy boy was Dead, and i was devastated. Thats My Boy. He had been my favorite character from the jump, and i did not know how to process him being gone. So i took a break from the show, and turned to ao3 instead.

At this point i was Not an avid fic reader. I wasn’t an avid reader period – outside of manga – but i had read a few really good fics recommended to my by some of my JJK pals. So i looked at the Kon-El | Conner Kent character tag on ao3 and just scrolled until i found something interesting.

In this case: a Timkon fic (this one in particular).

I knew who Tim was before this (He shows up in YJtv. He's there in BTAS), but I had never thought about him and Kon as... anything really. In the versions of them i was familiar with, they don't interact all that much. They're from different generations of heroes, but i was like, hey, what the hell this sounds cute. And man oh man, it was all down hill from there.

I read more TimKon fic, and just fell in love with them. But i was also... confused. Like... why do these two guys have such a robust fanbase... wheres the link.

THAT is what pushed me to start reading Detective Comics Comics for the first time. I wanted to get to know these guys For Real, and the only way to do that was by digging into the source material.

This post is So long oh shit. I have thoughts about How I got to know the kiddos & how the comics i read (as well as the order i read them in) have influenced my understandings of these little guys. But i think thats a post for another day. I have other things to do than write out a post about my media consumption habits

o7 signing off.

#𓆟 #fish food #this actually feels like Such a Blog post lol #just realized i copied over a portion of this post i had sitting in my clipboard so i could add my '𓆟' tag...#oh welllll the thoughts are still in my head #i can add them to this later i Guess

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fandomtrashfox · 2 years

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Batman Beyond fanfic idea: ‘Batman Beyond Human’

Basically a fanfic of Batman Beyond and Batman the animated series. Almost a crossover, I guess? I don’t know what you would call it tbh.

Idk, I had this idea and wanted to put it down somewhere and share ‘cuz I thought it was neat.

Not sure about trigger warnings? I don’t think there’s anything worth warning about tbh. I’ll edit though if anyone says it might need one.

(Read below)

Basically, Terry runs into a villain one night while dealing with what he thought was a normal case.

Perhaps he’s going after some thugs, who basically explain to him in a panic that the person their working for is someone who shouldn’t still be alive. Terry dismisses this, maybe give him a one liner about how he’s dealt with that type before. “Oh, have you now?” a vocie from the darkness. Then, from the shadows, comes BTAS Scarecrow.

Terry is horrified and shocked. Remembering very vividly Bruce describing someone like this from when he was Batman. He goes after him, unmasks him expecting to see a copycat, but he’s no imposter. He looks exactly like he did in BTAS even, not a grey hair in sight. Scarecrow manages to get away, but Terry is more than just a little confused.

What’s worse? During the fight, this Scarecrow manages to break Terry’s wrist simply be grabbing it. Certainly not something Scarecrow could’ve done before.

Bruce already knows about it, having seen someone that looks like Poison Ivy on the news.

They quickly realize just about the entire rogues gallery is back, all of them exactly like they were back in the day, with every memory and fully intact personalities...mostly. You see, some of them have some slight differences. Joker and Harley for instance. Somehow, for some reason, this Joker actually does love Harley and the two are pretty much partners in crime. (Bonnie and Clyde style.)

They confront another imposter in this city, a Batman clone, who, once Bruce appears on the scene, is far more willing to help them figure out what’s going on.

And during a fight with the clone Joker, something happens. Dramatic scene ensues, where Harley is caught in the face by a batarang. She gets up, only to see her reflection in a nearby window, with half of her face torn away, to reveal mech under her skin. It’s here we realize these clones are bio-mechanical copies of the old rogues. Harley panics, Joker realizes what just happened, and they both get away.

Bruce, Bio-mech Batman, and Terry all find out where the bio-mechs came from, while the bio-mech rogues also track down this place (Having woke up dropped in Gotham in random places initially.) Coming in from different areas.

They all find the woman responsible, a crazed scientist obsessed with the old stories and history of ‘The Batman’. The way she talks about him almost makes him seem more like a cryptid, and she explains that she did this to try and get his attention so he’d come back to his life of crime-fighting and put this ‘great value batman’ in his place (She’s talking about Terry.).

The bio-mech rogues and the three batmen all clash, only for the batmen to realize one thing they haven’t noticed until now: The bio-mechs are actually alive. They’re copies of the originals, but they’re also their own people, with emotions like a normal human being.

They all band together to defeat the mad scientist, stopping her plans and putting her in an Asylum. The bio-mechs, having realized now that they’re not the original criminals, aren’t quite sure what to do next, so they all go their separate ways to try and discover what’s next for themselves.

Maybe add an ending chapter involving bio-mech Harley and Joker revealing to the other rogues what happened. Everyone has varying reactions to the news, with many basically having an existential crisis over not being who they thought they were. Some going into denial because, for god’s sake, they remember everything! Even their childhood! But then they recognize a huge gap in their memory from before they popped up in this future Gotham.

Maybe, just maybe, even add a part where a small group of them goes to their supposed ‘graves’, only to discover, yeah, they’re there alright.

Then they all conspire to find whoever made them and get revenge for making them go through this awful shock. After all, why not just make them know they’re copies?

...Yeah, I just had that Idea and I really like it, haha.

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dweemeister · 3 years

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Batman: Mask of the Phantasm (1993)

In American animation outside of Disney, no other studio inspires as much reverence as Warner Bros. The Merrie Melodies and Looney Tunes shorts precipitated into worldwide recognition for those series’ stock characters. Despite this success, Warner Bros. did not release an animated feature until the musical Gay Purr-ee (1962), in association with United Productions of America (UPA). Animators at Warner Bros. from the 1930-1960s knew they were not making high art, nor were they pretending to. Warners, since the 1930s arguably the most financially stable of the major Hollywood studios, has historically seen little need to bankroll animated features. With that in mind, it might come as less of a shock that Warner Bros.’ first in-house animated feature is Eric Radomski and Bruce Timm’s Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. Originally intended as a direct-to-home media release, Mask of the Phantasm – based on and made by the production team behind Batman: The Animated Series (1992-1995) – transcends those modest intentions. It is among of the best superhero films ever made.

In the wake of Tim Burton’s Batman (1989) and Batman Returns (1992), Batman: The Animated Series, unlike Burton’s efforts, affords time to characterize Bruce Wayne rather than surrendering ample screentime to thinly-written but scene-stealing villains. For that and many other reasons including the looming, vertical art deco-inspired production design of Gotham City; the distinctive and moodiness of its black paper backgrounds; and its balance of dark and lighter tones, BTAS remains a high-water mark among Batman fans – perhaps the best adaptation of the character there is. Mask of the Phantasm builds upon that foundation, in addition to crafting its own unique contribution within the DC Animated Universe (DCAU). As tired as origin stories are, Mask of the Phantasm is part-origin story for the Dark Knight – something largely avoided in BTAS – and somehow integrated here without distracting from the present-day scenes. Rarely is any Batman media a character study of Bruce Wayne, but Mask of the Phantasm proves itself a wonderful exception.

One evening, Batman/Bruce Wayne (Kevin Conroy) attempts to stop a gaggle of gangsters led by Chuckie Sol (Dick Miller) from laundering counterfeit money from a casino. Amid the scrum, Sol escapes from Batman, but immediately confronts a shadowy figure later known as the “Phantasm” in the parking garage – Sol dies in the confrontation. Batman receives the blame for the killing and the concurrent property destruction from Gotham City Councilman Arthur Reeves (Hart Bochner), who just so happened to be profiting from Sol’s racket. Across the film, Bruce reminisces about his courtship with Andrea Beaumont (Dana Delany), their breakup, and the lead-up to the creation of his Batman alter-ego. Juxtaposing Bruce’s past and present, we see how he channels his regrets and profound loss into being Batman. The past haunts him still, overhanging the high roofs of Wayne Manor and the ledges of Gotham’s skyscrapers. Back in the present day, the Phantasm has murdered another crime boss; a third murder involves the Joker (Mark Hamill), initiating an emotional dénouement that, because of the intricacies of motivation that the film develops, elevates the film beyond what might otherwise be sloppy storytelling.

The dramatis personae also includes crime boss Salvatore “The Wheezer” Valestra (Abe Vigoda); Andrea’s father, Carl Beaumont (Stacy Keach); the Wayne family butler, Alfred Pennyworth (Efrem Zimbalist Jr.); GCPD Commissioner James Gordon (Bob Hastings); and GCPD Det. Harvey Bullock (Robert Costanzo).

The screenplay by Alan Burnett (producer and writer on various DC Comics films and Hanna-Barbera productions), Paul Dini (head writer on BTAS and Superman: The Animated Series), Martin Pasko (a longtime DC Comics writer), and Michael Reaves (head writer on BTAS and 1994-1996’s Gargoyles) keep the film’s attention on Batman/Bruce Wayne, despite the introduction of various subplots and Joker – whose somewhat-questionable presence might seem to indicate a project going off the rails. Shadow of the Phantasm’s placement of flashbacks stems the awkwardness that Joker’s inclusion brings, assuring that the film stays grounded into Batman’s psychology. In past Bruce we see a charming young man with time, money, and looks to spare. His romantic side with Andrea is an element of his life, one that connects – inevitably, tangentially – to the trauma his parents’ murder. His most personal motivations – that which a younger Andrea could never see, and privy to only Alfred – are stuck in the past, circulating around that childhood loss.

The occasional reflections from Bruce Wayne on what his life has become make Mask of the Phantasm the most introspective piece within the BTAS continuity, freed from the constraints and expectations inherent of episodic television. No BTAS episode forces its eponymous character to confront himself to such extents. What Bruce Wayne and Batman have become in the present-day treads perilously close not to his style of vigilante corrective justice, but vengeance. The tragic paradox that lies at the heart of this tension is the soul of the Batman mythos. Anyone with the most basic understanding of who Bruce Wayne/Batman and the Joker are will at least have a glimmer of understanding of that paradox. This portrait of what Batman stands for is more maturely handled than any of the twentieth century live-action Batman films, and with less sensational filmmaking than Christopher Nolan and Zack Snyder could produce. But with the film’s screenplay and Kevin Conroy’s iconic voice acting as the Caped Crusader, it becomes an inquest into Bruce Wayne’s tortured soul.

If Mask of the Phantasm ran longer than its seventy-eight-minute runtime, Andrea Beaumont, too, might also have received similar character development as Bruce Wayne here. Even within those seventy-eight minutes, Andrea – with a great assist from Dana Delany’s voice acting (Delany so impressed Bruce Timm here that she was given the role of Lois Lane in Superman: The Animated Series) – is a nevertheless fascinating character. In a cruel irony, her ultimate role in Mask of the Phantasm is to be an incidental mirror to the violence that occurs in this film. Her decision is not an imposition, whether conscious or unconscious, from someone else, but hers and hers alone.

In this drama fit for opera, this Batman occupies a world of operatic proportions. The background and character animation are not as pristine as the best examples of BTAS due to some scattered bits of animation outsourcing. The animation of BTAS might seem stiff and janky to modern viewers expecting Flash hand-drawn animation or hand-drawn/CGI hybrids. However, Mask of the Phantasm retains the gravity-defying art deco of the animated series that somehow does not clash with the ‘90s-influenced and futuristic elements it integrates. Its primary inspirations are of film noir and the Metropolis seen in the Fleischer Studios’ Superman series of short films (1941-1943). The black paper backgrounds provide Gotham’s street corners and rooftops a nocturnal menace, immersing the viewer into the city’s seediness.

Composer Shirley Walker (orchestrator on 1979’s The Black Stallion, conductor and orchestrator on 1989’s Batman) was one of the few women composers in Hollywood at the turn of the twentieth into the twenty-first century. A pianist (she played with the San Francisco Symphony as a soloist while still in high school) who studied music composition at San Francisco State University, Walker would later become one of the first female film score composers to receive a solo credit for composing the music in John Carpenter’s Memoirs of an Invisible Man (1992). But it is her work in the DCAU that distinguishes her – of particular note is her arrangement of Danny Elfman’s theme to 1989’s Batman for BTAS and a wholly original main theme for Superman: The Animated Series. Though Walker could adjust her style to suit a more synthetic sound, she specialized in composing grand orchestral cues. That style was apparent in BTAS and is adapted here from the opening titles (the lyrics here are actually gibberish and are the names of Walker’s music department sung backwards). The foreboding brass and string unison lines seem to reverberate off the animation’s skyscraper-filled backgrounds. Numerous passages in Walker’s score, as if taking hints from Richard Wagner, elect not to resolve to the tonic – setting up scenes where tension escalates alongside the music, forestalling the dramatic and musical release.

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One stunning exception to Walker’s ominous, atmospheric score is the gentle cue “First Love”, an interplay between solo oboe and synthesizer. Bruce’s flashbacks are not only a balm to the grimness of his present situation, but a musical reprieve from the intensity of the action scoring. That Walker can navigate between such differing moods exemplifies her compositional dexterity and overall musical excellence. Walker, who cited Mask of the Phantasm as her personal favorite composition for any film or television production, was one of the DCAU’s greatest under-heralded contributors. And how I wish she was given more chances to score different sorts of films.

Warner Bros.’ last-minute reversal on Mask of the Phantasm’s release strategy – abandoning the direct-to-home media debut for a theatrical release – meant minimal marketing for a low-budget film that made barely a dent at the box office. The film’s home media release would more than make up for the film’s theatrical release failure. Upon the success of BTAS and the critical acclaim lavished on Mask of the Phantasm, Warner Bros. kept the DCAU on television for another thirteen years, with infrequent direct-to-home media movie releases as recent as 2019.

For numerous DC Comics fans, the DCAU is an aesthetic and narrative touchstone. The limited animation is sublime for this period in animation history. In addition, one will overhear fans remaking that a certain superhero’s definitive portrayal might be thanks to the DCAU. The superhero benefitting the most from the DCAU’s characterization and storytelling is unquestionably Batman. And justifiably so, as Mask of the Phantasm shows due respect for Batman and Bruce Wayne – what molded them and how each persona intertwines with the other. The mythos behind any superhero is found not in fight scenes. Instead, it resides in the psychology and rationalizations that forces a person to directly confront another’s wickedness. Mask of the Phantasm realizes that such confrontations test Batman/Bruce Wayne’s remaining vestiges of humanity, and braves to ask moral questions that too many figures of superhero media would rather not think about.

My rating: 8.5/10

^ Based on my personal imdb rating. My interpretation of that ratings system can be found in the “Ratings system” page on my blog (as of July 1, 2020, tumblr is not permitting certain posts with links to appear on tag pages, so I cannot provide the URL).

For more of my reviews tagged “My Movie Odyssey”, check out the tag of the same name on my blog.

#Batman #Batman: Mask of the Phantasm #Bruce Timm #Eric Radomski #DCAU #Kevin Conroy #Dana Delany #Hart Bochner #Stacy Keach #Abe Vigoda #Dick Miller #Efrem Zimbalist Jr.#Bob Hastings #Robert Costanzo #Mark Hamill #Shirley Walker #Glen Murakami #My Movie Odyssey

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hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger · 4 years

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Toughts on this deviantart post?

Found this https://www.deviantart.com/hotwar696/art/Who-is-the-real-Gary-Stu-835695208 it’s pretty bad i think. Or at least misleading. Toughts?

Let’s throw up the image and text for full context

A lot of Conway/Romita fans think that Venom is an awful Gary Stu. Ironically they like the post clone saga Norman Osborn who is not even the same character as the one back the in Conway/Romita days. Despising Harry Osborn when back in the days he simply did not have enough time for him. Also despite what post clone saga stories might have told you he only became a villain because an accident gave him brain damage. Yes, that’s right with the exception of the animated Spider-Man series from 1994 the pre clone saga Norman Osborn was not some inhuman monster who became insane. He was a tragic bussinessman who lost his wife and got brain damage after an explosion to his face. Becoming a villain after an explosion to the face by the way is also the villain origin for Dr. Octopus so yeah Norman Osborn was not a very original villain even before becoming the Gary Stu version of Lex Luthor.Image size

I am going to address every point here, but let me get the most important thing out of the way first.

This is not a valid point to make for two big reasons.

1) The first is that antagonists* do not count as Gary/Marty Stus/Mary Sues.

The function of an antagonists within fiction is to oppose and challenge the protagonists. By having them be extremely powerful, hyper capable, have immense accomplishments and so on, you build them up as a challenge to over come, as someone the protagonist is the underdog in comparison to.

A classic example from manga and anime is Freeza from Dragon Ball. As originally portrayed he can reduce whole planets to dust with a single finger and the true limits of his power are beyond imagining. Had the protagonists all attacked him at once along with all of Freeza’s subordinates they still would’ve lost because he is more powerful and all of them combined. He withstands the most powerful version of the most powerful technique in the series up until that point.

Were this character the protagonist he’d almost certainly a Marty Stu. But as the antagonist he is a supremely effective challenge for the heroes to over come precisely because he does outstrip them so throughly.

2) It’s very obvious the OP is reacting against arguments he’s heard from one specific or several specific people on an incredibly narrow topic. That’s fine. But he’s broadbrushing it as though it’s a widely held opinion when it’s at best widely held within a niche within a niche within another niche.

Like, this is obviously a discussion he’s had at Toonzone or some other similar forum because he references BTAS, Spec Spidey and has drawn both Norman and Venom in their 1994 designs.

But let’s talk about the broader points made.

- None of that symbiote crap. I don’t disagree that it’s myopic and disingenuous to dismiss symbiotes on principle. Putting aside how they’ve been a staple for over 30 years now (and their recent stories have been very good in fact), it smacks of failing to look beyond your own preferences. There are bad symbiote stories and characters. There are even things that inherently suck on principle within Spider-Man. But the symbiotes are not among them. They are exceptions to the rule and proven that over and over. The person the OP is referncing is entitled to not like them but not to dismiss them on principle. I hate Screwball but I don’t think her concept is inherently shit. I liked her in he Fake Red manga!

- Joker in BTAS was a wuss, Spec cartoon Norman was better. I mean, maybe that’s true. there can be extenuating circumstances applying to both. But the Joke screaming doesn’t make him a wuss. if he was a wuss he wouldn’t have taken on Superman or Batman repeatedly. Norman might have been scared but so full of spite that he wasn’t going to give Vulture the satisfaction.

- He technically killed Spider-Man because he killed Ben Reilly. Well, first of all he was trying to kill Peter. Second of all ben didn’t look stupid. he looked identical to Peter but with blonde hair; how is that stupid? Third of all killing a clone of Spider-Man isn’t technically killing him, if it was Norman would’ve routinely been murdering Spidey clone. Fourth of all the OP is framing this as a grand win for Norman because he got to kill Spidey technically. it is a win for him but not for that reason. Ben sacrificed himself to save Peter who Norman was really aiming at

- Killing off baby May, apart from being debatable at all due to the presentation of that story, didn’t prevent Peter from maturing. it prevented him from maturing a specific way but it didn’t stop him from maturing period. Dealing with a miscarriage is an experience that can age a person. Peter went back to ESU to complete his education immediately after that and some years later he became a teacher under JMS’ run. That’s also a totally meta-textual point to make and therefore doesn’t apply to Norman being a Gary Stu. Successfully preventing character development is something you attribute to writers not the characters.

- I don’t get rh point about Nathanial Gray or Von Strucker

- Yes he was the Kingpin of Europe. How does that make him a Gary Stu? Wison Fisk was the Kingpin of America as were many other characters.

- Yes he was President of the USA but only in an out of continuity story, Earth X (and maybe other ones too). The argumentation of the OP is broken because he is conflating multiple different versions as the same thing. pre-OMD, post-OMD, Spec cartoon, Earth X etc. By this logic Venom would also be a Gary Stu and so would countless other characters. Superman would be a Gary Stu because he is DC’s Jesus but also DC’s Hitler.

- The next point is a total strawman. Putting aside how in my experience people throw more shade at Norman than is deserved, even Norman fans like myself do not deny BAD stories with the character exist. What’s ironic is that he has chosen the more obvious targets like the Gathering of Five or the Final Chapter.

Both of those stories are in most respects much worse than Sins Past and the element that makes Sins past bad isn’t even the fact that Norman slept with Gwen. It’s the simple fact that a woman who was clearly not pregnant in the Romita years apparently was and neither she nor MJ seemed to give a shit about the children after they were born. The further irony of his referencing this story is that he’s framed his argument as Silver Age stans are ignoring stuff like Sins Past. the reality is it is Silver/Bronze Age stans who HATE Sins Past more than anyone else in the Spider-Fandom precisely because it messes with the stuff they stan

His referencing of the Clone Saga is also divorced from context. Everyone worth their salt is aware Norman was never originally intended as the villain of the Clone Saga. That was a late addition, and noticeably a late addition at a time when the Clone Saga stories being told were on the whole actually good! Norman’s return story was on balance good! It got a trade paperback in the 1990s when only the most popular stories got such treatment. It is utterly disingenuous to hold the worst of the Clone Saga up as a Norman Osborn story because those were never written with him in mind as the villain.

Additionally I do not know why he is referencing Maximum Carnage or Superior Spider-Man. Okay, maybe he means the former is a symbiote story as opposed to a Carnage story specifically. But if he’s trying to prove Norman is a gary Stu but Venom is not why would you treat Maximum Carnage as a general symbiote story rather than cite a Venom specific story? And it still wouldn’t explain citing Superior Spider-Man. This is about contrasting Norman and Venom, what did Doc Ock have to do with any of this?

- Citing Morlun is equally confusing. The point the OP is trying to make is that silver/bronze age fans put Norman on a pedestal and look down on Venom. Putting aside how that really misrepresents the situation, why would you cite a villain who is not only NOT a silver/bronze age character but appeared long after Venom and if anything gets more disdain than Venom does. Old school fans who dislike Venom or symbiotes on principle do not generally like Morlun, if anything they dislike him more than Venom as they regard mysticism even more inappropriate for Spider-Man than aliens.

- The OP finally cites the Final Chapter but failed to do it at the appropriate point in his rant and also misrepresents it. He’s conflated the bomb implanted into Aunt May’s head in that story with the revelation that she was impersonated by an actress in ASm #400. He’s combined both characters and events. How do you fuck up that badly? The actress died of natural causes and then much later we got the implanted bomb. Norman never killed the actress, the actress agreed to work with him specifically because she was already dying. Also the guy’s grammar is messed up. I’m pretty sure ‘operated into her’ isn’t a real phrase.

- ‘A chad lady killer’…um…what? Isn’t that term intended to be slang for a kind of James Bond figure? A ‘man’s man’ who has lots of sex with women? It doesn’t mean a man who kills women is a manly. Whether people use the term chad ironically or sincerely the overwhelming majority aren’t going around proclaiming Jack the Ripper as the ultimate real life Chad.

- The framing of Norman’s relationship with Gwen is misrepresentative of what happened. It pretends like Norman had se with Gwen specifically to get one over on Peter. He didn’t. He wasn’t even aware he was the Goblin at that time, that Peter was Spider-Man and very likely didn’t know Peter had feelings for Gwen as they weren’t dating at that time. Norman had sex with Gwen because they were both vulnerable and had a moment of passion.

I’d also question his designating Gwen as Peter’s second love interest. I guess that’d be accurate if you are speaking strictly in terms of Peter’s regular girlfriends. But normally love interest means someone the readers are aware is being framed as potential romantic partner for the protagonist. In this sense Liz was the first love interest, Betty was the second and Gwen was the third.

- WTF does shit was so cash even mean?

Now for the text.

-A lot of Conway/Romita fans think that Venom is an awful Gary Stu. Ironically they like the post clone saga Norman Osborn who is not even the same character as the one back the in Conway/Romita days.

Yeah, there isn’t a lot. The vast majority of Conway/Romita stans do not like post-Clone Saga Norman.

And is he not the same character s he was before.

From a certain POV that’s true. But that’s chiefly because silver Age Norman was usually an amnesic who wasn’t his true self. His Goblin persona in the Silver Age is actually fairly similar to his post-Clone Saga self. The reason for the different presentation is simply a passage of time. Doc Ock in the 1990s wasn’t presented identically to how he was in the silver age just because times had changed. The Joker wasn’t presented the same way in the post-Killing Joke or Death in the Family eras of Batman as he was back in the 1940s.

The core of the character, that this guy was a real nasty, egotistical, sadistic and power hungry monster? No, that was all the same it was just ramped up. Norman’s ‘ghost’ had evolved in the interim between his death and his return too. In a sense his place and framing within the mythos had always evolved with the times. It’s just that when he came back suddenly that wasn’t a metaphorical ghost but a flesh and blood character.

But the same can be said of any successful character over time as I outlined above. Shit Absolute Carnage depicted Carnage in a way that is not identical to how he was initially presented. But it was most definitily an evolution of that.

- “Despising Harry Osborn when back in the days he simply did not have enough time for him.”

Not true. The first time Norman began to remember he was the Goblin he got passive aggressive towards Harry. When he got his powers he was downright mean to him as depicted in ASM #40. But he also never despised Harry either. Norman always loved Harry in a toxic manner, through neglect or abuse. That was true post-Clone Saga.

In fact the entire reason Norman initiated the Clone Saga was specifically because he wanted revenge for Harry’s death.

And again, the OP is treating this as a wholesale invention of the post-clone saga era when it wasn’t. Norman being an abusive father was introduced long before anyone was thinking about the Clone Saga. It was established in the Child Within circa 1991 IIRC. Later (when the Clone Saga was being planned I think) it was further explored in Spec annual 1994, but that just added to what we already knew from the forrmer story. Shit, this depiction of Harry and Norman’s relationship was showcased in Untold Tales of Spider-Man. That was both set long before the Clone Saga, IIRC written before Norman’s return was decided upon and written by someone who definitely didn’t agree with his return.

Norman never despised Harry, but he was a shitty Dad. He was a shitty Dad in ASm #40. He didn’t just have no time for Harry, he neglected him specifically because he wanted to gain money and thereby gain power.

Even if you do argue that Norman didn’t despise Harry in the silver age but did post-clone saga, so long as that change was organically introduced that makes it fine. better than fine as that’s simply more dramatically enriching than him being a nice guy who happens to not have time for his son.

- “Also despite what post clone saga stories might have told you he only became a villain because an accident gave him brain damage.”

LOL nope.

a) As I just said, even if this was a retcon of the post-Clone Saga era (which it wasn’t) it made Norman a better character. A man being bad because he got brain damage is a cliche, lazy, over simplistic explanation for his villainy. It’s also arguably less realistic and actually makes the characetr a lesser villain as some surgery and thereby might be able to fix them. In fact you could argue they are in effect a victim of their brain damage and thereby not accountable for their actions. That’s so much less substantive than someone’s life experiences shaping them into a horrible human being. By this author’s wn logic Doc Ock’s origin (pre-Clone Saga I might add) makes him a LESSER villain because it established that he was actually evil because of his life before his accident. that was just the straw that broke the camel’s back, he didn’t just get a knock to the noggin and wound up evil

b) If Norman’s evilness stems from brain damage how come when he was a nice guy in the silver age neither he nor Harry suggested surgery or medication to help heal that damage? That would’ve meant he’d never have been evil again

c) ASm #40 makes it clear he was a piece of shit BEFORE his accident. He was neglecting his son, railroading his partner, stealing his inventions and power hungry before getting brain damage.

d) You could easily argue Norman was always brain damaged the doctors just mistakenly believed his injuries stemmed from the accident

e) Child Within and Spec Annual 1994 established Norman as a psychopath before he got his powers. Both were written before the Clone Saga. Post-Clone Saga stories like Revenge of the Green Goblin merely built upon this, they didn’t wholesale invent it

“Yes, that’s right with the exception of the animated Spider-Man series from 1994 the pre clone saga Norman Osborn was not some inhuman monster who became insane.”

LOL nope again.

First of all, 1994-cartoon Norman WAS fairly sympathetic before becoming the Goblin. In the show he got a loan from Kingpin and was forced to pay off the debt by targeting Spider-Man. Even if he didn’t initially realise Fisk was a criminal when he got the loan, by the time he did realise going to the police would’ve resulted in him losing his son and/or his life. He wouldn’t be the first man to get in deep with the mob after all.

When his inital effort to kill Spider-Man failed he was forced to give Kingpin his company and attempted to get out from this by assasinating Fisk. This backfired hard endangering his son, but Norman risked his life to save Harry.

His whole character until season 3 was basically defined by being a morally grey character. he loved his son, he was maybe egotistical and a ruthless businessman but the worst things he did were either on Kingpin’s orders or attempts to free himself of a very powerful and very dangerous controlling force in his life.

Not a nice man, but a far cry from an inhuman monster or an insane person, at least until he was exposed to the Goblin gas.

SECOND of all if you are an inhumane monster how exactly do you then ‘go insane’? Aren’t they functionally the same thing within the context of the dicussion?

It’s also not representative of canonical Norman. Canonical Norman was a psychopath because of his life experiences and possibly hereditary mental illnesses within the family. The Goblin formula by empowering him sent him on an ego trip.

The OP isn’t even using the commonly held misconceptions about Norman Osborn, he’s just using his own very specific ones. Most people mistakenly believe the Goblin formula drove Norman nuts when ASM #40 just claims the accident gave him brain damage. Over time creators decided the formula itself makes the user nuts.

“He was a tragic bussinessman who lost his wife and got brain damage after an explosion to his face“

a) Unless I am mistaken there was little word paid to Norman’s wife in the Silver Age. And what little we got never presented Norman as being affected by her passing. That was an invention of the 1990s and 2000s; and a very good one at that.

b) Yes how tragic a businessman he was to have neglected his son, sought power, rail roaded his partner and stolen his inventions. Obviously none of that is bad. he only became bad after an explosion gave him brain damage.

c) Even if he really was a tragic businessman blah blah blah, that is a LESS EFFECTIVE villain and a LESS complex character than the post-clone saga guy we got

“Becoming a villain after an explosion to the face by the way is also the villain origin for Dr. Octopus so yeah Norman Osborn was not a very original villain even before becoming the Gary Stu version of Lex Luthor.”

I’ve already addressed the idiotic criticism that Norman became a Luthor knock off.

The OP is disingenuous on several levels with his other point as well though.

For starters brain damage was never the sum totality of Norman’s origin as a character. Doc Ock was just a guy who was at best maybe a little odd looking due to his arms then had an accident and became evil. that was it.

Not only was Ott far from the first villain with such an origin, but to sit there and say Norman was unoriginal merely because he also took a boom to the face is moronic. Norman’s life before his accident made him incredibly different to Otto. It made him comparatively more layered and complex next to the likes of Otto or the other rogues because he wasn’t nice initially, he had this strained relationship with his son and above all else he had this internal denial over his failings as a father. THAT shit doesn’t count as part of his origin? ALL that matters is explosion+brain damage=evil?

That’s obviously moving the goal posts to win.

And it’s a self-defeating argument. Silver Age Norman is bad because he is unoriginal (even though functionally he actually was). Okay, in the 1990s and beyond he got a revised origin that was more original. But that’s bad because changed him from his Silver Age self.

Goal posts. They a movin!

Not to mention as I already said DOC OCK’s origin was also changed so his villainy didn’t just stem from a random accident that knocked his noggin.

So Doc Ock sucks too right?

Finally, I say this as someone who likes Norman AND Venom.

I would never call Venom a Gary Stu. I’ve never even SEEN anyone claim Venom was a Gary Stu. BOTH Norman and Venom get under appreciated.

Fuck i wrote like over 10 essays DEFENDING Venom.

You can pass my comments onto this idiot if you wish.

*Not necesarilly villains as you can have a villain protagonist, see Superior Spider-Man

#Venom #Norman Osborn #Green Goblin #Eddie Brock #Spider-Man #Doctor Octopus #otto octavius #Gwen Stacy #Clone Saga #Venom symbiote #symbiotes #Superior Spider-Man #Maximum Carnage #submission

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sendasan · 4 years

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And BaneCrane headcanon you can list?

I know I got another ask about this ship, too, but I'll answer that from another continuity. This one will be purely BTAS focus.

Bane and Scarecrow initially started strictly professional.

Because of his bizarre moral code, Bane has never seen Scarecrow's unmasked face before, and made sure he avert his sight for any photo that may link to Jonathan. Scarecrow felt very appreciated for the commodity.

Bane was the one who fell in love with the professor first.

He and Scarecrow have a 6 years age gap (Bane is around Batman's age, to be precise).

When Scarecrow heard his unconventional confession, he went through a lot of emotional reactions (Shock, Denial, Skeptical, Doubtful, etc.) before trying out the relationship.

It was until the one crime mission they successfully committed together did they both began to mutually fall into eachother (based on that sketch I made).

On the "Seven Days of Screams" experiment, they spent most of their time together on a boat where observation records are set, exchanging their personal knowledge to eachother, and having quality time in their "dates".

While Bane doesn't mind going to restaurants with his previous suitors, he never really enjoyed them as he felt there were untapped atmosphere and experience missing out.

Thankfully, Scarecrow seems to prefer homemade cooking as much as Bane does. This gave them plenty of opportunity in not only exchanging cuisine recipes, but also how their food was grown.

It really feels odd for Jonathan to talk to someone who is much closer to their countryside than himself.

Sometimes Bane would aloud translate the out of print books for Crane, thanks to his immersive polylingual knowledge.

...which Scarecrow feels a little jealous about.

It's not surprising that they would shortly joke around their respective sentences crude security.

Despite being together now, they both prefer to work in their careers separately. They might work together in certain phases, but it would usually end before either of them are caught together.

The relationship is one of the main factors that lead Bane to start "moving in". This includes becoming an employee to the Penguin (much to Oswald's delight).

Despite finding out Bane's "rich" status, Scarecrow hardly ever ask him for money, as he felt he wouldn't have enough to payback the value.

But being this is Bane, he can't help but do what he can to make his lover happy.

For the first time, with no physical advantages, Scarecrow has as much chance to be the dominant one.

Bane usually researched the building or request a room below the hotel floor level, as it one incident lead him feeling self conscious about his strength (which involves him and a one nighter breaking 5 floors during their private time).

After their first consummation without their masks, Scarecrow is baffled by how boyishly handsome looks. Bane is not even faze by the Scarecrow's true face (he would describe it as "cute").

A lot of their living expression reminisce of affection and touch starves.

Scarecrow is the one that helped refine Bane's vemon, which makes him the second person to carry the formula's knowledge.

Bane does plan on taking Jonathan to Santa Prisca to introduce him to his "relatives".

Whenever Scarecrow shows a sign of fatigue or illness, Bane will do what he can to make him feel better (or at least pampered).

When Bane found out Scarecrow was a victim of prison abuse from Lynold Bolton (Lock Up), he was extremely pissed off, and decided to teach him a thing or two about prison conditions, Pena Duro style (he is never seen in the BTNAS timeline again).

Yes, even when Scarecrow decided to redesign his costume to look more closely like the undead, Bane will still kiss him. Truly picked a keeper.

Jonathan is shocked to witness Bane being really well with kids, and expressed interest in adopting some when he retires. Scarecrow isn't too enthusiastic about it, but doesn't mind if it ones that are older, like teenagers.

The relationship last for good 15 years...until the 2009 Close Call Apocalypse happened, where Jonathan Crane had died in the fire. If you watched Batman Beyond, then you can guess it went all downhill for Bane.

I'll stop here, as that's all I have on top of my head for now. Thanks for the ask.

#btas #scarecrow #jonathan crane #bane #banecrane #scarebane #headcanon

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timidizzy · 5 years

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Alright everyone. Brace yourself. Rant time.

Most of you follow me because I post about South Park a lot. Unfortunately this isnt a post about that fandom, but rather another fandom I'm in.

DC comics.

More particularly, DC comics biggest screw-up, in my eyes.

That being, of course, Harley Quinn.

Harley Quinn is my favorite comic book character. I discovered her when I was in middle school. My father introduced me to Batman Arkham Asylum. I heard her voice for the first time and fell in love. Her attitude was amazing. I loved her. I can never give Arleen Sorkin enough credit for just a stunning performance for so many years. It's a shame she's retired, but she deserves it. The character was inspired off of her, and she did a phenomenal delivery of the character for 20 years. And she deserves so much credit for that.

I fell in love with Harley Quinn quickly. I immediately went and watched all of Batman: The Animated Series, read all comic books including her, I roleplayed her for years and spent about five years fine tuning my voice to do a FLAWLESS impression of Arleen's take on Harley. I was, and am, devoted to the character.

But then I discovered New 52. Then, Suicide Squad came out. And there was DC Rebirth.

Every one of these pitched away more and more of this amazing character into a sexy Hollywood money machine.

I'm sure there are some of you who think the character from the movie and Rebirth is a funny, quirky, cute girl. But I'm here to tell you, as someone who witnessed the change happen, that is NOT Harley Quinn.

The media portrays Harley as crazy and sexy. She dresses skimpy and flirts. Batman: Assault on Arkham had the audacity to include a scene where she takes off her clothes to distract a guard.

The movie Batman and Harley Quinn was essentially a shitty rewrite of an episode of BTAS called Harlequinade. Harlequinade was phenomenally written and gave amazing moments for the character. She teams up with Batman and Robin to help stop The Joker. There's fun little moments that include them going to a friend's club for leads, and she gets on stage and sings a song to distract everyone.

Sound familiar?

That's the plot of Batman and Harley Quinn, except instead of Joker it's Ivy.

It's like Bruce Timm looked at his own goddamn property and decided there wasnt enough Harley shaking her ass and fucking Dick Grayson.

But what disgusts me most about the character is the fact they've portrayed her as this sexy, fun and quirky crazy girl.

Harley was fun, she was quirky, but her character was never designed to be sexy and she *wasn't crazy.*

Allow me to explain.

A good example is in the flashback scene of the movie Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. Joker and Harley tortured Robin until he became they're child. While fighting Harley, Batgirl asks "how could you help Joker do it, Harley?" Harley responds "okay, so he roughed the kid up a little. But I'll make it right."

THAT LINE

RIGHT THERE

PERFECTLY DESCRIBES THIS CHANGE

Harley was NEVER crazy

At least not in this fun way she's portrayed now!

She didn't understand the gravity of her decisions. She didn't understand the consequences and the fact that she literally ruined a child's life. She dismissed Joker's actions and said "I'll fix it."

She wasn't crazy, she just WASN'T ALL THERE.

In her Pre-52 comic book series, titled Harley Quinn, the end of the story involves her taking care of a little girl. I don't fully remember the details, but this girl essentially had a code in her irises. The code gained access to her late father's fortune. But in order to access the code, the little girl would go blind. A lot of evil men were after her to get the money, so Harley protected her.

The second to last issue ends on a cliffhanger. You see Harley trying to decide if she should make the girl blind and steal the money, or save her.

The final issue starts and the girl is nowhere to be seen. Harley begins hallucinating another version of herself, who leads her to the park. Where she sees the little girl. Blind.

She stands just out of reach of the girl and begins crying.

THAT marked the point where Harley went crazy

But it wasnt sexy and fun like the media shows her.

In that moment, Harley recognized what she did. She recognized there was no going back. With Robin she thought "yeah, but I can fix it." There was NO WAY to fix Harley's GREED ruining this little girl's life FOREVER.

ITS FUCKINF DEPRESSING.

THE SERIES ENDS WITH HARLEY CRYING AND WALKING STRAIGHT INTO ARKHAM ASYLUM, ACCEPTING DEFEAT.

THE MOMENT SHE TURNED CRAZY WASNT FUN. IT WAS HEARTBREAKING. WHY WOULD DC THROW AWAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT?!

Harley Quinn used to be such A FANTASTICLY WRITTEN CHARACTER.

She seemed fun at first glance, but the character developed SO MUCH DEPTH.

AND THEN DC THREW THAT IN THE FUCKING GARBAGE DISPOSAL.

The fact that I am genuinely ASHAMED TO ADVERTISE WHO MY FAVORITE COMIC CHARACTER IS, BECAUSE OF JUST HOW MUCH THE PUBLISHER FUCKED OVER HER CHARACTER

SHOULD SHOW SOME GODDAMN DEPTH TO HOW RIDICULOUS THIS IS

Edit: looking back at this I realized I didnt even mention that in New 52 she fucked Deadshot.

Idk how to fit it in, but it's worth noting.

#dc #dc comics #harley quinn #comic #comics #comic books #harley quinn comic #character evaluation #character essay #rant #comic rant #angry

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gwydionae · 7 years

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11 Questions Meme

Rules:

Post the rules

Answer the questions given to you by the tagger

Write 11 questions of your own

And tag 11 people

Tagged by @sealandangel! ^_^

I am actually procrastinating right now and don’t really have time to make up 11 new questions so I’m gonna be a putz and not tag anyone sorry

What is your favorite way to spend a rainy day?

Just hanging out at home with my computer, kitty, and whatever random project I want to work on that day. ^_^

If you’re in the CLAMP fandom whats your favorite manga and favorite character and why?

Hahaha, I don’t know that’d I’d say I was in the CLAMP fandom per se, but I do like my fair share of CLAMP stuff. Perhaps surprisingly I think I’d have to say that Magic Knight Rayearth is my favorite of their manga - a bit cliche by today’s standards, sure, but it was one of the first manga series I read, so it introduced me to a lot of those cliches, haha. I just really like the characters and think it’s a solid story with a nice twist at the end.

As for favorite CLAMP character, I’d probably have to go with both Sakura and Shaoran from Cardcaptor Sakura. My heart says that Shaoran is #1, but I know that without Sakura I wouldn’t like him nearly so much. So for me they come as a package deal. They are just both so sweet and innocently adorable, even if Shaoran starts out a bit grumpy, lol. Sakura is a little ray of sunshine that still gets some nice depth, and Shaoran’s journey through self discovery always makes me happy.

Favorite Anime?

My nostalgic favorite is Digimon (specifically Adventure), so I don’t know that anything will ever be able to topple it from that spot as nostalgia is a powerful thing. I love the characters and the fact that it has some surprising depth for a show based on a toy line. Also the backgrounds are GORGEOUS.

But as far as a series where my nostalgia does not taint my opinion, there are a lot I could chose from, but the one that really does just stick out the most is Tsuritama. I love that series so much. <3 Yuki honestly means so much to me, and I truly love the entire cast. That and the story is so unique and fun and interesting! Everyone should watch the show about aliens, fishing, dancing, and social anxiety! XD

Favorite Cartoon?

Oh, this one’s a lot easier: Batman the Animated Series! I mean, sure, there are a ton of cartoons I love, but none will ever top that one. The writing, the atmosphere, the characters, the voice acting, the music... it is truly a masterpiece. BtAS Batman is MY Batman (and none of this later season junk where suddenly all of his personality was zapped away and Babs was, like, dating him or something weird and gross like that and Dick was turned emo and Tim was beyond annoying... ok I’ll stop now...).

Favorite Video game?

I don’t care if it’s the cliche answer: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. While other Zelda games may do individual aspects better (Midna = best companion, BotW’s climbing and paragliding, etc), OoT has the best full package and, in my opinion, the most compelling story. It’s not a groundbreaking story, but as you might have been able to tell by MKR being my fav CLAMP manga, I’m not super concerned about a story having to be unique to be good, lol. That and I love Zelda being Shiek and running around like a ninja for half the game! XD

What do you like to collect if anything?

Hmm, don’t know that I really collect anything. I have in recent years made a point to buy more prints from artists at anime conventions despite not really having the wall space to hang them, so I suppose that might count? lol I want to get, like, a large book I can put them all in or something!

Windows or Mac?

GIVE ME WINDOWS OR GIVE ME DEATH

...I had a rough time in the computer labs back in college. I did so many art projects in a super old version of Paint Shop Pro on my Windows computer simply to avoid having to use the schools Macs because I hated them THAT much. ^_^;;

What languages can you speak in?

Only English... I can understand some Spanish and Japanese, but it’s very minimal.

Do you like the nightmare before christmas?

OF COURSE

Whats your OTP to end all OTPs?

I actually already touched on it: Sakura and Shaoran from Cardcaptor Sakura. <3 It’s just so freaking cute... I won’t start gushing again, though, since, ya know, I already did. XD Just know that I think of it as a super innocent ship - I don’t ship things for the “sexy make out timez” or whatever. I just think they are adorable together.

If you could change ONE outcome in any anime/manga what would it be?

Oooooooooooh that’s rough... See, I’m one of those people who is ok with good characters dying and super bad things happening IF it has significance. So I wouldn’t, like, bring Hughes back or keep Nina from being turned into a chimera, because those are big, impactful moments. So it has to be something that really changed the way I felt about that particular anime/manga...

(I’m... I’m just gonna put this last one under a cut. XD I get pretty heated. LOL It is something that will forever bother me, and if you EVER want to get me going, just bring up Naruto’s Itachi.)

I’ll be honest, the first thing that came to mind is actually from Naruto. I’m not so sure this would be “the ONE” if I actually had time to give this a ton of thought because I stopped enjoying the series even before this happened. But this. THIS was the breaking point. THIS was the one thing that made me turn my back on it completely and despise it with the passion of a thousand burning suns.

Itachi being a “good guy”.

No. NO. NO NO NO NO NO!

This ruined everything. It ruined Itachi who was once this terrifying villain with no remorse toward the killing of his family and made him into a guy who made some really dumb and pointless decisions that ultimately went against what his supposed main goal was all for a cheap shock twist. It ruined Sasuke who should have finally come to the end of his avenging days and had to deal with the fact that it was just as empty and hollow as everyone told him it would be, leading him an ACTUAL path to redemption, but instead was given a lobotomy by the author and only made incomprehensibly dumb choices that went against literally any amount of sense, all so he could stay “bad” until the very end (or whenever exactly that happened - I’m pretty fuzzy on the whole final... war... thing). It ruined Sakura who continued to pine for a guy 100% not worth pining for because he was literally a scumbag when she could have been trying to help a post-avenging Sasuke come to terms with everything instead.

It ruined Naruto himself - say what you want about Sasuke as a character (I loved him pre-time jump, but I know many hated him and I totally get why lol), but one thing you have to give him is that the rivalry between him and Naruto was almost always interesting and fun. They learned from each other, grew together, and yet still wanted nothing more than to one up the other - good, typical shounen rivalry. Sasuke leaving made sense in the story so I was ok with it, but it DID make me care a lot less about Naruto because suddenly I didn’t find the characters he was surrounded with compelling (I’m looking at you, Sai...). If Itachi had not been revealed as a secret “good guy”, this would have left Sasuke with more chances to interact with Naruto in ways other than “I hate the Leaf and want to kill everyone and that includes you”. We could have gotten so much more from the two of them! Maybe they still would have fought sometimes. Maybe Sasuke would help him out before taking off again. It wouldn’t have necessarily meant that Sasuke would have been around all the time, but it still could have given us bits here and there of the two of them interacting with each other which is what made me like the series so much in the first place.

*DEEP BREATH*

Ok. I’m ok. I’m better now. I just... have a lot of feelings about this... XD sorry not sorry

#gwydo's musings #._.#i give long answers XD #sorry...#but this was fun so i don't care XD

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the-sapphire-general · 7 years

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My Thoughts on Batman and Harley Quinn

The most disappointing animated Batman movie I’ve ever seen. I know I said that in a previous post, but to be honest, I feel like giving my own review on this movie for a friend who is also a Batman fan. Before I begin, yes I am familiar with Batman, but I haven’t read any of the comics, so my Batman lore isn’t as gigantic than what I know. I watched Batman: The Animated Series. I used to watch it with my brothers growing up, although I think I missed a few episodes. Anyway, I know about the series and it’s a very good Batman cartoon, one of my favorites next to Batman Beyond and The Batman. So I was expecting a nice throwback to the series my brothers love and one that I grew to love myself. Unfortunately, I got less than what I expected. Minor spoilers ahead (though not much really happened).

Batman and Harley Quinn begins with a cartoon-like credits introduction after the first scene of the movie, which I thought would be better for a lighthearted Batman cartoon aimed for young kids instead of what should be a movie with the tone and style of Batman: The Animated Series. The story is basically about Poison Ivy and The Floronic Man (a guy I don’t even know because I don’t read the comics) wanting to create some type of virus that can turn all humans and animals into plant hybrids, so Batman and Nightwing must stop them with help from Harley Quinn because if one miscalculation is made when making the virus, it can kill everything on Earth. Story-wise, it’s not that entertaining. There’s mostly filler during the movie that could have been left out entirely like Harley chasing down a guy she knew from the past because he offended her mother, and a scene where she and the dynamic duo go to a bar, and there’s two consecutive songs, one sung by Harley, the other sung by Two-Face’s lackeys from an episode of BTAS if I remember correctly. I had no idea what was happening during these two specific scenes. I found them ridiculous. Also, Nightwing and Harley…do stuff in the bedroom. Yeah, they kind of showed an interest in one another. After weird stuff happened, they finally confront Poison Ivy and Floronic Man near the end and try to stop them and after that, it just ends there. No, I’m serious. The movie ends when Harley Quinn figures out how to beat Floronic Man. I didn’t include Poison Ivy because she realized about the consequences, but I’ll get to that in a bit. I really have no idea what else to say about the story. I really don’t. The serious and comedic aspects lack balance and the story isn’t that exciting. That’s all I can say.

Now moving on to other things about the movie. The only few perks is I liked how they tried to get the BTAS feel and as usual, Kevin Conroy and Loren voiced Batman and Nightwing. Despite mixed reception regarding Melissa Rauch as Harley Quinn, she did a good job and I love Rauch and her character from The Big Bang Theory, Bernadette, so I knew I would like her performance as Harley. It was just Harley herself that wasn’t written properly like the rest of the movie. As for the humor, a few of the jokes were good but most of them were hit-or-miss. I’m not saying adding humor in Batman is bad. It’s okay to add humor, but if it’s used too much, it just gets ridiculous depending on the franchise, and Batman is mostly a serious franchise. If it weren’t for the violence, sexual themes, and swearing, the movie could have been almost like a cartoon for little kids.

These next comments are random but Batman was out-of-character a few times, and the biggest moment for me was right at the end where he kissed Harley’s cheek when she gave him and Nightwing the solution to defeating Floronic Man and saving the world. Seriously, Batman kissed Harley’s cheek. Okay, I know he kissed Catwoman if I’m right (again, I haven’t read the comics), it’s not like he can’t kiss anyone, but the kiss in that single scene went against his character. My brother loathed how Batman was OOC, and that was his least favorite scene too. I mean, why?? Also, why didn’t Batman figure out how to defeat Floronic Man? He’s supposed to be intelligent! My brother is a huge Batman fan, and he hates the movie now after watching it. Oh yeah, did I mention what the solution was to beat Floronic Man? Well, the solution was…to light a match and burn him. Yeah. The movie ended with a very OOC Batman and Nightwing kissing Harley’s cheeks after making that solution, and after some credits, Floronic Man is running while on fire. That’s when it truly ends. At least, I thought it did until there was a final scene of a reformed Harley hosting a reality TV show that was a strange version of the real-life talk show, Dr. Phil. Go ahead and see it for yourself.

Also, Poison Ivy isn’t mentioned in this so far because like I said, she knew about the consequences of using the virus to turn everything into plants and didn’t go with the plan after seeing Harley crying. That really happened. To be honest, Ivy and Harley’s only scene would have been touching if the movie was better. So Poison Ivy defied Floronic Man, and she had one badass moment that I actually started to love as it happened, but then Floronic Man just knocked her out with one punch…and I hated that. I love Poison Ivy, I always have, and I found that disrespectful to her character. She went against Floronic Man only to get knocked unconscious in seconds. That was her last scene. I’m not joking.

Now this is just my overall personal opinion, so you don’t have to agree with me on what I said about this movie. A lot of people like this movie while my brothers and I, and many others, just didn’t like it. So if you like it, good for you. If not, welcome to the club. The movie was a disappointment for me, and it was just a weird movie. I don’t know what went wrong. DC’s other movies were good, so I have no idea what caused this movie to wind up the way it is, which I can only describe in as few words as possible, as bizarre fan-fiction. It’s not the worst movie I’ve seen but it’s also not the best. I hope the next animated film makes up for this because it did not reach my expectations.

#batman and harley quinn #feel free to disagree with me #this is just my opinion #if you like it then good for you

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